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Author Topic: Using a shield to assist swap of polarity in a magnet  (Read 15600 times)

Offline Low-Q

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Using a shield to assist swap of polarity in a magnet
« on: November 25, 2010, 11:32:14 PM »
I have made an animation which is showing an array of magnets which rotates around inside a magnetic field.
There are two grey parts in there too. These are iron tubes/shields where the magnets can "hide" and do its polarity swap without interference of the magnetic field outside. The swap are in reality done gradually by rotating the magnets. All magnets are "trapped" by guides all the way. These guides are twisting 180 degrees inside each shield, which each of the magnets follows.
It is only outside the shield, the magnets are repelled or attracted by the bigger stator magnets.

I have simulated the cross section of the polarity swap in FEMM with and without the shield. It requires lots of energy to swap polarity without the shield, and no energy WITH the shield.

This means it will not take energy to change the magnets from attraction mode to repelling mode, and vica versa.

Take a close look at it if you want, and comment, question, anything are welcome :)

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Offline Low-Q

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Re: Using a shield to assist swap of polarity in a magnet
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2010, 12:02:13 AM »
Further simulation of the model above shows promising results. There are lots of torque in the same direction during the swap period inside the shield :)
As it doesnt take energy to swap the polarity as long the magnets are inside the shield (What I found in another simulation), the math should be a proof of a working design :)

Vidar

Offline nievesoliveras

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Re: Using a shield to assist swap of polarity in a magnet
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2010, 02:36:37 AM »
Quote
All magnets are "trapped" by guides all the way. These guides are twisting 180 degrees inside each shield, which each of the magnets follows.

That is a good idea.
The problem I see is to maintain those magnets in line to enter the magnetic shield while circulating around.

Jesus

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Re: Using a shield to assist swap of polarity in a magnet
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2010, 02:36:37 AM »
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Offline shylo

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Re: Using a shield to assist swap of polarity in a magnet
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2010, 03:13:54 AM »
Hi Vidar .....are you saying as the central magnets enter and are traveling through the steel shields ,they rotate,.....thereby reversing polarity as they exist the steel shields.....if this is correct...........how would this be accomplished?.....shylo........btw the steel sheilds would have to be thick enough to absorb all the magnetic flux from the central and external magnetic fields....so as not to interact with the magnets within the shield themselves......just questions I have not trying to be rude........thanx ....shylo

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Using a shield to assist swap of polarity in a magnet
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2010, 07:25:37 AM »
1. The rotating magnets are locked in position by a track - much like a rollercoaster. 2. The shield must be big enough. No problem. This is both engineering issues which should be possible to solve with relatively small amount of engineering skills. Thanks for your feedback:)

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Re: Using a shield to assist swap of polarity in a magnet
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2010, 07:25:37 AM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: Using a shield to assist swap of polarity in a magnet
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2010, 01:07:38 PM »
That is a good idea.
The problem I see is to maintain those magnets in line to enter the magnetic shield while circulating around.

Jesus
As a start it should be absolutely possible to use fewer rotor magnets, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 or so. They will behave separately in the same way as if there was an array with a bunch of magnets. What I mean is, if it works with 1 magnet, it will work with more magnets, even an array. It wil also work with only the the stator magnet in the middle (if it works with all stator magnets in place)

Vidar

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Using a shield to assist swap of polarity in a magnet
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2010, 10:24:13 PM »
Here are an alternative way of making this motor. The main key here is to shield the polarity swap of the rotor magnets, so no energy are lost during this process.
In general this motor work as an electric motor which do swap magnetic polarity due to the alternating current. However this design does this mechanicly.
I have put my name on the drawings, just in case this motor work for real 8)

I do hope more of you understands how I want this motor to work. So hopefully someone would assist, question, and even bust the design by telling straight out the "evil" truth. I really, honestly, cannot find the flaw of the design (Except "it should not work", "bending physics", "violate laws", etc.). If you guys can see the flaw (except violating laws of physics), please tell me, and explain where the mistake are made.

I have called this motor "SWAP" :)

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Re: Using a shield to assist swap of polarity in a magnet
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2010, 10:24:13 PM »
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Offline cubalibre

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Re: Using a shield to assist swap of polarity in a magnet
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2010, 11:23:17 PM »
Hello

Very interesting project. At first I cannot find out why it should not work.
On the other hand please try to explain me the difference to my NoSwap design. If you change the polarity of your stator instead of turning the rotor magnets.
In the NoSwap design, if the rotor magnets are on top, I would expect a very strong backforce, impossible to allow a full turn?

Thanks
cubalibre

Offline shylo

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Re: Using a shield to assist swap of polarity in a magnet
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2010, 11:48:03 PM »
that last pic will come to rest with the first ,~2 mags near polarity switch...........shylo........Vidar I like the idea of a shield...the only problem I have is the shield being saturated ? what type of material could this be made from.....shylo

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Re: Using a shield to assist swap of polarity in a magnet
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2010, 11:48:03 PM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: Using a shield to assist swap of polarity in a magnet
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2010, 11:58:10 PM »
Hello

Very interesting project. At first I cannot find out why it should not work.
On the other hand please try to explain me the difference to my NoSwap design. If you change the polarity of your stator instead of turning the rotor magnets.
In the NoSwap design, if the rotor magnets are on top, I would expect a very strong backforce, impossible to allow a full turn?

Thanks
cubalibre
I have been thinking of this scenario you were drawing. My "logic" tells me that this particular design, with all fixed magnet polarity, will definitely not work. I was rather thinking of a virtually rotating magnetic field, but still rotating the mass. The array in the animation was done simple because I hadn't time to make all magnets in one complete round (My wife was yelling at me "come to bed ASAP - I'm TIRED!"). So the anmation only shows the principle of operation inside the shield.
My idea are based on having a center magnet with polarity horizontally aligned, and stator polarity aligned vertically. There will be a torque in the rotor magnet as long it stays horizontally, but rotating that magnet would eventually ended up in-line with the polarity of the stator magnet, and ends there without further motion. If we devide up this rotor magnet in many smaller ones, and let them in total feel the same torque, they would be forced to go in-line with the stator field. But what happens is that when every time one small magnet goes into the shield (half way of one stator magnet), it flips 180 degrees so it can exit in repelling mode - as all the other following magnets now are all the way 180 degrees - to the next shield where the polarity again flips 180 degrees.

Simulations shows that there is a great torque in the array, and it also shows there is not energy required to flip the magnets one by one 180 degrees as they pass through the shield.

HOWEVER! If the shield isn't there, it will require great amount of energy to swap polarity - just as much as the energy supplied by the rotor array magnets in its whole.

So what I have found is that without the small shields, the motor will not work. The shields are the only reason why it doesn't require energy to swap the polarity.

Ofcourse, I cannot claim any overunity yet. There is most probably something that isn't working in practice. So I have decided to build a simple prototype. If I manage to make one, I will show it to you on my Youtube channel - working or not.

Vidar

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Using a shield to assist swap of polarity in a magnet
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2010, 12:01:03 AM »
that last pic will come to rest with the first ,~2 mags near polarity switch...........shylo........Vidar I like the idea of a shield...the only problem I have is the shield being saturated ? what type of material could this be made from.....shylo
The shield might be made double layered so the magnetic field doesn't "see" each other. Stauration might be a problem, but then I add more shield or use weaker magnets.

EDIT: Saturation in this design shouldn't be a problem. The shield can be saturated untill a sertain point, but more saturation than that would finally make the shields "transparent" and it wouldn't work at all.

Vidar

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Re: Using a shield to assist swap of polarity in a magnet
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2010, 12:01:03 AM »
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Offline shylo

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Re: Using a shield to assist swap of polarity in a magnet
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2010, 12:22:51 AM »
using the shield creates drag,...making it thicker or heavier will bring it to a stop ,..as will weaker magnets.........."double layered".....this prevents poles from seeing each other??...........shylo

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Using a shield to assist swap of polarity in a magnet
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2010, 12:32:42 AM »
using the shield creates drag,...making it thicker or heavier will bring it to a stop ,..as will weaker magnets.........."double layered".....this prevents poles from seeing each other??...........shylo
Drag? Eddy currents? Use ferromagnetic material that isn't conductive.
Example of fields between stators and rotor which doesnt see eachother below.

Offline shylo

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Re: Using a shield to assist swap of polarity in a magnet
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2010, 12:50:55 AM »
I could be wrong but I have'nt found anything yet that will block magnetic attraction.........is there such a process??....shylo

Offline mscoffman

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Re: Using a shield to assist swap of polarity in a magnet
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2010, 02:42:10 AM »
Low-Q,

If you do decide to build this keep us informed. Here is the thing; Let say you
have a curved groove or track inside the shield that rotates through 180 degrees
to flip the magnets. You are going to need to accelerate the rotational momentum
of each magnet segment and the faster you rotate the magnet the more cam force
is going to be required. So it makes sense to rotate slowly throughout the entire
length of the shield, as well as have the shield be as long as possible consistent
with operation. That momentum energy is going to wasted to some extent as friction.
The motor is going to have flipping friction going on almost continuously on a bunch
of segments at once, when it is running - that it what I would worry about.

:S:MarkSCoffman

 

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