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Author Topic: New permanent magnet motor on youtube from Roobert33  (Read 438153 times)

Offline maw2432

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Re: New permanent magnet motor on youtube from Roobert33
« Reply #105 on: November 21, 2010, 12:39:08 PM »
Just some observations..
In the Jason George design,  the cam is attached to outside of the wheel giving it little leverage.  Thus no way for it to work because too little leverage is provided.

In the Robert33 design the cam looks to have more leverage to lift the stator because it is attached to the shaft in the center of the rotor.   This design looks to provide much more leverage.   

I think any replications need to consider that the cam leverage may be the key to this working.
Any thoughts on this?

Bill
« Last Edit: November 21, 2010, 01:26:50 PM by maw2432 »

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Offline CLaNZeR

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Re: New permanent magnet motor on youtube from Roobert33
« Reply #106 on: November 21, 2010, 09:46:12 PM »
Had a bit of spare time this afternoon, so decided to try out a V-Track idea.

It has worked out pretty well and the idea was to have a V-Track that could be used flat for certain experiments and also be wrapped around a rotor or couple of end caps.

I had a few 10x10mm magnets spare, but more coming in for next weekend, where I will also mill the endcaps as well.

Some quick photos attached.



Offline Omnibus

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Re: New permanent magnet motor on youtube from Roobert33
« Reply #107 on: November 21, 2010, 09:55:37 PM »
@CLaNZeR,

This a good idea. Have you made these yourself or these are some available pieces adopted for the purpose? Wonder if you can drill the appropriate beds for the magnets directly on a plastic drum with your CNC or you need a 5-axis CNC?

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Re: New permanent magnet motor on youtube from Roobert33
« Reply #107 on: November 21, 2010, 09:55:37 PM »
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Offline CLaNZeR

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Re: New permanent magnet motor on youtube from Roobert33
« Reply #108 on: November 21, 2010, 10:04:35 PM »
@CLaNZeR,

This a good idea. Have you made these yourself or these are some available pieces adopted for the purpose? Wonder if you can drill the appropriate beds for the magnets directly on a plastic drum with your CNC or you need a 5-axis CNC?

Hi Omni

I cut this out myself today on my CNC machine to try out the idea.

Much quicker than cutting out a drum as such.

I have cut drums before for some of the E-Orbo designs and also the German motor.
http://www.overunity.org.uk/showthread.php?t=185

I am setting the turntable by hand for each degree spacing, but never got around to putting a stepper on it and automating it.


I thought the nice thing about having a flexible track is that you can detach it from the rotor end caps and use it for HJ track experiments etc etc


Offline mscoffman

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Re: New permanent magnet motor on youtube from Roobert33
« Reply #109 on: November 21, 2010, 10:28:29 PM »
@All

Take two carbon-composite bicycle rear wheels ex-tires, but with their
sprockets and mount them on a frame so that they are in-line and about
two inches apart at the narrowest. Now make the magnet V-gates on
one wheel and the magnet bars on the other. Make a chain connection
so they turn the same direction to stay synchronized. Drop the bars out
at the critical spot and remove them from the 180degree spot for balance
as well.

One may need to replace the bicycle chain with a less stiff ball chain. How
could something like that not work, if there is a constant acceleration force
vector over most of the wheel??? What am I missing?

:S:MarkCoffman

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Re: New permanent magnet motor on youtube from Roobert33
« Reply #109 on: November 21, 2010, 10:28:29 PM »
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: New permanent magnet motor on youtube from Roobert33
« Reply #110 on: November 21, 2010, 10:48:43 PM »
It would be great if someone could make a drawing (preferably a dxf file) of the drum with the exact beds for the magnets so that I can bring it to a machinist tomorrow. In the past our own Jason (@Jdo300) liked to do that but I don't know if he's reading this thread. As for the magnets, I'm gonna go tomorrow to the company that sells them and pick them up from there. It's near the place where the machinist is. Unbelievable, isn't it? I mentioned in the other theread that here in Sofia, Bulgaria it appears to be a hundred times easier to do work than in New York (not to mention the prices). Like I said, unfortunately I'll have to be back in the US at the beginning of December so will have to figure out the best strategy regarding this replication.

Offline CLaNZeR

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Re: New permanent magnet motor on youtube from Roobert33
« Reply #111 on: November 21, 2010, 10:58:55 PM »
It would be great if someone could make a drawing (preferably a dxf file) of the drum with the exact beds for the magnets so that I can bring it to a machinist tomorrow.

Took me a while to get the spacing and degrees correct for the length of drum I am working on.

As usual I try to stick as close as I can to 100mm rotor, but in the video it looks more like 150mm.

So by the time I plotted out the V-Track to suit 10mm magnets, the rotor comes out at 89mm diameter inside and 95mm on the outside.

I am thinking of reversing the artwork as such and making a mould for this V-Track. Would simply then mean pouring liquid rubber into the mould to produce one.

Cheers

Sean.

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Re: New permanent magnet motor on youtube from Roobert33
« Reply #111 on: November 21, 2010, 10:58:55 PM »
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: New permanent magnet motor on youtube from Roobert33
« Reply #112 on: November 21, 2010, 11:12:28 PM »
I guess @Roobert33 has just glued the magnets onto the cylindrical surface and that's all. Rob (not @Roobert33) emphasized the cup where the magnets are stuck to should be light although made out of whatever material, not necessarily metal (copper) as in the vid. Wouldn't it be better to have a cylinder, not a hollow cup, however, to have a flywheel effect?

Offline woopy

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Re: New permanent magnet motor on youtube from Roobert33
« Reply #113 on: November 21, 2010, 11:52:11 PM »
whoww Sean as usual very nice job

For my small contribution , i am playing with my drum (now with 3 layers of magnets to increase the power.

Until now i have no chance to overcome the cam in my config.(but very near)

But after trying everything,  i think that  it could be an opportunity by using a short and sharp cam as per the original (Roobert33) design. So with a config in Attraction on the the nearing of the gate i can get a very strong acceleration and simultaneously a strong and short attraction. So i think that Robert use also the push of the attracted magnet on the rear side of the cam to propel the rotor.

And also the bottom part is surely absolutely necessary. (not tried yet)

On the pix it is some of my testing apparatus. All is mounted with ball bearing. But i have to improve the design   ough a good working day !! but very good fun ;D

Anyway working or not working it is amazing that those Vgate works with every material ,magnetic or non magnetic stators ,small bars or long bars magnets outside or inside the drum etc etc.. very interesting to learn how magnets work, And perhaps with better building....?

Good night at all

Laurent

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Re: New permanent magnet motor on youtube from Roobert33
« Reply #113 on: November 21, 2010, 11:52:11 PM »
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: New permanent magnet motor on youtube from Roobert33
« Reply #114 on: November 22, 2010, 12:04:27 AM »
@woopy,

Nicely done. Indeed, it appears you have to work more on the cam. Good luck.

Offline CLaNZeR

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Re: New permanent magnet motor on youtube from Roobert33
« Reply #115 on: November 22, 2010, 12:08:17 AM »

On the pix it is some of my testing apparatus. All is mounted with ball bearing. But i have to improve the design   ough a good working day !! but very good fun ;D


Hi Laurent

What a cool replication you have done mate, well done.

Aligning those magnets must of been a nightmare and taken ages while you taped over them.

Looking forward to seeing more.

Cheers

Sean.

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Re: New permanent magnet motor on youtube from Roobert33
« Reply #115 on: November 22, 2010, 12:08:17 AM »
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Offline nievesoliveras

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Re: New permanent magnet motor on youtube from Roobert33
« Reply #116 on: November 22, 2010, 12:16:21 AM »
It seems that everybody is busy replicating this one!
Nice work guys.
Maybe it will work.

Jesus

Offline Omnibus

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Re: New permanent magnet motor on youtube from Roobert33
« Reply #117 on: November 22, 2010, 08:57:51 AM »
@CLaNZeR,

I think @woopy's observation is interesting -- the elements need not be magnets (save the stator bars on top and at the bottom) despite what Rob told me. Besides, go figure how to fix repelling magnets the way they're shown in the vid. Also, I haven't seen lathed surfaces of neos such as those in the pics. Seems like these are small iron cylinders glued spirally onto the outer surface of a thin-walled copper tube. When made that's attached to a copper bottom fixed to the axis. The "bearings" seem to be just holes in the wooden pillars where the axis is resting.

Offline exnihiloest

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Re: New permanent magnet motor on youtube from Roobert33
« Reply #118 on: November 22, 2010, 10:31:53 AM »
Quote
There is another replication here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwLwEs0iu7U&feature=related

Update:
I went to the link on the clip and found this:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=10034.0;attach=48991

It is obvious it doesn't work, question of magnetic potential.
Here is an equivalent reasoning with the gravitational potential: the principle of the device is the same as to let a bowl roll down a slow downslope and when it is at the bottom, to expect it will climb a short but hard steep to the same height. Of course it fails.
The rotor here is increasingly attracted to the top horizontal magnet (1 # downslope) and then must fight the "sticky point" (2 # hard steep). As the cause of the movement is a magnetic potential difference and the work which has to be done is independent of the path (W=dU), the work for step 1 is equal to the work for step 2.
In other words, when we consider a full turn, as there is no magnetic potential difference between the start point and the end point because they are the same, then there is no cause for the rotor to rotate. It can rotate only less than 1 turn.
Additional improvements such systems to move the fixed magnet at a particular moment for avoiding the sticky point are also useless because based on the same principle of potential difference, which implies energy conservation in any way.
All permanent magnet motors based on this principle are thus flawed. And I don't hear about other types   :(



Offline Omnibus

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Re: New permanent magnet motor on youtube from Roobert33
« Reply #119 on: November 22, 2010, 12:26:59 PM »
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=10034.0;attach=48991

It is obvious it doesn't work, question of magnetic potential.
Here is an equivalent reasoning with the gravitational potential: the principle of the device is the same as to let a bowl roll down a slow downslope and when it is at the bottom, to expect it will climb a short but hard steep to the same height. Of course it fails.
The rotor here is increasingly attracted to the top horizontal magnet (1 # downslope) and then must fight the "sticky point" (2 # hard steep). As the cause of the movement is a magnetic potential difference and the work which has to be done is independent of the path (W=dU), the work for step 1 is equal to the work for step 2.
In other words, when we consider a full turn, as there is no magnetic potential difference between the start point and the end point because they are the same, then there is no cause for the rotor to rotate. It can rotate only less than 1 turn.
Additional improvements such systems to move the fixed magnet at a particular moment for avoiding the sticky point are also useless because based on the same principle of potential difference, which implies energy conservation in any way.
All permanent magnet motors based on this principle are thus flawed. And I don't hear about other types   :(

Usless blabber. The device under discussion in this thread may not work but not because of the above reasons.

 

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