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Mechanical free energy devices => mechanic => Topic started by: Low-Q on November 14, 2010, 12:57:34 PM

Title: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
Post by: Low-Q on November 14, 2010, 12:57:34 PM
Hi,

I have been thinking on a motor that works on the basics of a gear pump. Attached animations shows a magnetic gear motor. The outer rotor is made up of steel. This steel is rotating, but an external and fixed magnetic field is magnetizing it. The eccentric rotor inside are magnetized externally with the south pole.

Principle of operation:

In the right side of the motor, there are repelling force that want to expand the space between the eccentric rotor (S) and the outer rotor (S).
The left side of the motor, both the eccentric (S) and the outer rotor (N) wants to close the gap between those rotors.

Both these actions will force the rotors to rotate in one direction. In the area where the eccentric rotor tooth must go from N to S in the bottom, and S to N on the top, will hopefully cancel eachother out, so it will not prevent the motor to start running.

I have not tested this, and wil probably not. I have no 3D magnetic software to simulate this.

Any opinions, thoughts are welcome :)
Title: Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
Post by: Low-Q on November 14, 2010, 08:21:40 PM
I was thinking about something:

The inner rotor is allways rotating faster than the outer rotor. This allows the inner (eccentric) rotor to escape from the repulsion part, and approach the attractive part - just as it should. There will allways be a difference in magnetic flux density so the inner rotor will chase its equilibrium, but never finds it. Hence the motor will run untill the magnetism are gone (?).

Vidar
Title: Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
Post by: lumen on November 15, 2010, 05:11:51 AM
I was thinking about something:

The inner rotor is always rotating faster than the outer rotor. This allows the inner (eccentric) rotor to escape from the repulsion part, and approach the attractive part - just as it should. There will allways be a difference in magnetic flux density so the inner rotor will chase its equilibrium, but never finds it. Hence the motor will run until the magnetism are gone (?).

Vidar

It's an interesting concept. I see it not working as shown but if both the rotor and stator are rotating and of laminated steel, it sure seems it could work.
A shift of the field change area of about 22.5 degrees on the stator and a small area of blue on the rotor to start the repelling with the same pole before the switch to the red area.

Not sure, but it can't work as shown because it is moving into red from blue and it will want to attract back to the blue area at that point. I think you may be close to something!


Title: Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
Post by: nightlife on November 15, 2010, 07:54:31 AM
It's an interesting concept. I see it not working as shown but if both the rotor and stator are rotating and of laminated steel, it sure seems it could work.
A shift of the field change area of about 22.5 degrees on the stator and a small area of blue on the rotor to start the repelling with the same pole before the switch to the red area.

Not sure, but it can't work as shown because it is moving into red from blue and it will want to attract back to the blue area at that point. I think you may be close to something!




 I disagree, I think it may work as shown because it seems to be repelling and attracting enough to get thru the gate. It's definutly worth exploring.
Title: Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
Post by: Low-Q on November 15, 2010, 06:24:20 PM
It's an interesting concept. I see it not working as shown but if both the rotor and stator are rotating and of laminated steel, it sure seems it could work.
A shift of the field change area of about 22.5 degrees on the stator and a small area of blue on the rotor to start the repelling with the same pole before the switch to the red area.

Not sure, but it can't work as shown because it is moving into red from blue and it will want to attract back to the blue area at that point. I think you may be close to something!
I can agree with this, but this counter force also applies the opposite way on the top of the rotors. The case is that the outer rotor are forced to the left, and the eccentric rotor are forced to the right. This means when the bottom part of the eccentric rotor moves from blue to red, it is in some extent conterforced by the movement from red to blue on the top. The top of the eccentric wheel are facing this change fron red to blue 20% faster than it does on the bottom. So the energy that should prevent rotation, might seem to be less than expected - even zero...

Also take into account the difference in RPMs. The difference are about 20%. The torque should be equal on both rotors (Force equals counterforce), but the energy should then be greater in the eccentric rotor as the RPMs are 20% greater than the outer rotor. Could this difference do any good? Could this mean that the efficiency are 120%?

Vidar
Title: Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
Post by: Low-Q on November 15, 2010, 11:33:30 PM
I did now a simulation of a similar motor in FEMM. I tested different surroundings also. The simulation shows that the torque are quite smooth, and therfor evenly spread during each revolution. There are no typical sticky spots! I did not expect that to happen...

Anyways, the simulation shows that the average torque of the eccentric rotor are 70.5Nm while the average torque in the outer rotor are -67Nm.
These torque measurements are as expected - quite equal.

The thing now are the RPM's. There is no doubts that the a given Nm at higher RPM can provide more energy than the same Nm at lower RPMs. It seems to me after this simulation, that the energy provided by the eccentric rotor are 20% plus the 3.5 extra Nm torque - results in about 125% overunity... (???)

The shape of the rotors in the simulation are not as ideal like the shape in the animation, but almost the same shape.

Vidar
Title: Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
Post by: lumen on November 16, 2010, 05:47:52 AM
Yes, I was looking for the actual sticky location and it does appear to be compensated for by the other transition area.
When I get some time, this would be a good test for a 3D simulator or possibly a test build. I wonder what the best direction of lamination would be?
Title: Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
Post by: Low-Q on November 16, 2010, 02:26:58 PM
Yes, I was looking for the actual sticky location and it does appear to be compensated for by the other transition area.
When I get some time, this would be a good test for a 3D simulator or possibly a test build. I wonder what the best direction of lamination would be?
If you're going to use laminated steel, have in mind that both rotors are rotating. So stacking the steel sheets axially would be best I guess.

Vidar
Title: Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
Post by: void109 on November 16, 2010, 05:52:19 PM
I have a question regarding the principle of operation.  Maybe its two questions!

The static magnetic field magnetizes the steel.  I'd like to assume that you could replace the steel with a ferrous material, like a balun rod.  If I'm picturing what you have in your animation correctly, then I should be able to fix two magnets with say the south pole facing the same direction, and close, relatively to each other.  Then if I bring two ferrous bars or rods over the two poles, the rods would repel each other?

I'm just trying to picture a simple way to test the principle.  If the above sounds correct, I'll try that.
Title: Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
Post by: lumen on November 16, 2010, 06:20:51 PM
I have a question regarding the principle of operation.  Maybe its two questions!

The static magnetic field magnetizes the steel.  I'd like to assume that you could replace the steel with a ferrous material, like a balun rod.  If I'm picturing what you have in your animation correctly, then I should be able to fix two magnets with say the south pole facing the same direction, and close, relatively to each other.  Then if I bring two ferrous bars or rods over the two poles, the rods would repel each other?

I'm just trying to picture a simple way to test the principle.  If the above sounds correct, I'll try that.

Or try placing the two rods on the end of a single large magnet.  :-X
Title: Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
Post by: Low-Q on November 16, 2010, 07:12:43 PM
I have a question regarding the principle of operation.  Maybe its two questions!

The static magnetic field magnetizes the steel.  I'd like to assume that you could replace the steel with a ferrous material, like a balun rod.  If I'm picturing what you have in your animation correctly, then I should be able to fix two magnets with say the south pole facing the same direction, and close, relatively to each other.  Then if I bring two ferrous bars or rods over the two poles, the rods would repel each other?

I'm just trying to picture a simple way to test the principle.  If the above sounds correct, I'll try that.
You can cover the right part of the outer rotor AND the whole eccentric rotor with the south pole, and let the other pole cover the left side of the outer rotor only. Like lumen suggests, two ferromagnetic rods which is placed at the end of a bar magnet, will repel eachother.

This is also the principle of operation. The eccentric wheel wants to rotate towards the N pole and away from the S pole. As the outer and the eccentric rotor spins with different RPMs, but have the approx same torque, the energy of the eccentric rotor will be greater than the counter energy of the outer rotor.... this is what I think of it anyways :)
Title: Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
Post by: void109 on November 16, 2010, 07:21:29 PM
I must be doing something incorrectly.  Using a 2" x 0.5" disc magnet with north facing up, and using two steel bars measuring 1" x 0.5" x 0.5", when holding them above the north face, any permutation of bar ends attract each other.

Very much an ad-hoc test, just using my hands, and holding it at arbitrary distances above the magnet (close, but not so close to cause the magnet to leap up to my soon-to-be crushed fingers).
Title: Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
Post by: Low-Q on November 16, 2010, 07:38:50 PM
I must be doing something incorrectly.  Using a 2" x 0.5" disc magnet with north facing up, and using two steel bars measuring 1" x 0.5" x 0.5", when holding them above the north face, any permutation of bar ends attract each other.

Very much an ad-hoc test, just using my hands, and holding it at arbitrary distances above the magnet (close, but not so close to cause the magnet to leap up to my soon-to-be crushed fingers).
If the disc magnet are magnetized through thickness, you should have S pole on one flat surface, and N pole on the other flat surface. If you put one small steel ball on the S surface, it will move into the center. If you add one more (equal) steel ball, both balls will repell eachother and find themself apart with the same distance to the center of the disc.

Vidar
Title: Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
Post by: lumen on November 17, 2010, 05:52:50 AM
I must be doing something incorrectly.  Using a 2" x 0.5" disc magnet with north facing up, and using two steel bars measuring 1" x 0.5" x 0.5", when holding them above the north face, any permutation of bar ends attract each other.

Very much an ad-hoc test, just using my hands, and holding it at arbitrary distances above the magnet (close, but not so close to cause the magnet to leap up to my soon-to-be crushed fingers).

Void,
Find some strips of sheet metal about .o3" thick and .5 wide and about 2" long, hang then from some string and see if you can get them to stick together by placing the magnet beneath them.
They will attract to the magnet but repel from each other.
This concept is based on the same idea of the stack of washers between two magnets. All the washers will separate from each other when placed in the field lines of the magnets. I have done several experiments with this idea but there was the problem of the additional attraction when the washers are expanded.
This concept may provide the solution to the additional attraction problem that would prevent the washer concept from providing any gain in force due to the exit loss from additional attraction by changing back to an attraction state.

 
 
Title: Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
Post by: Low-Q on November 17, 2010, 11:15:41 PM
This motor is really buging me! I have simulated the torque to be allmost the same on eccentric rotor and outer rotor. But what bugs me is the difference in kinetic energy which is required to run these rotors. When the outer rotor have taken 4 revolutions at say 10Nm, the eccentric rotor has taken 5 revolutions at 10Nm. Isn't that 25% more energy from the eccentric rotor? And wouldn't that rotor "win" the battle and result in a self sustaining magnet motor?

Vidar
Title: Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
Post by: Low-Q on November 19, 2010, 10:38:23 AM
Hold on folks I am simulating OU in FEMM...

An example from one of the simulations:

Took a very thorough test last night. It looks like the torque of the eccentric rotor is about 9 percent higher than the outer rotor at any given position. This conflict is clearly against what I have learned about the exchange if we are to preserve energy transfer 1 to 1. In a model with outer diameter of 5cm rotor, giving an average 1.41Nm, while the eccentric and smaller rotor giving on average 1.54Nm. This is at first 9% difference - the wrong way! That should be the reverse. So I counted out the force of the two rotors physical radius. They are on the outer- and eccentric rotor, respectively 56.4 N and 77N. There is a difference of 20.6 N, which is then left over to overcome the back torque from the outer rotor! I do not understand this!

Believe me, I have simulated this many times now, with different sizes, magnetic strength etc. No matter what, I get OU!

I think it is time to build this. Make a simple prototype should be easy :)

Vidar
Title: Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
Post by: FatChance!!! on November 19, 2010, 12:17:31 PM
I wish you the best of luck even though I sincerely believe you will find out
that you missed some important data in the simulation and there will be no OU.

But...if you do have success, please update us as fast and thoroughly as possible.
We would all like to replicate a real working device for once!!!
Title: Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
Post by: Airstriker on November 19, 2010, 01:54:39 PM
This looks pretty well. However, at this moment I have no idea how you want to make the magnetisation of the outer wheel static - not moving with the wheel and also not affecting the magnetisation of the internal wheel. The internal wheel can be made of a long enough magnet so that the external wheel sees only one pole ('S') - probably a special shaped magnet is needed here and also note the weight of the magnet will be quite big. But what to do with the external wheel I don't know. Any ideas ? Maybe a ring magnet magnetized through the diameter ? A big one ;] But then eddy currents come into play - laminated (maybe special material) outer wheel needed.
All in all, I see this project quite expensive ;/
A 3D simulation would be quite helpfull here. But I'm affreaid we don't have any skilled person here on forum who can handle this ?
Title: Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
Post by: broli on November 19, 2010, 05:55:33 PM
I did a dummy simulation in wm2d. I used electrostatic charges instead. But you can actually view these as cylindrical magnets as well. I think this would be even easier to build than your highly geometric concept low-q  :P .

Like your animation this simulation uses gears. The ratio has to be exactly 1.25 anything else and it will just oscillate back and forth.

Here's a video of the build and below is the simulation file and some a picture of the rotational speed and acceleration graph.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDRvUNBPyng

This is really exciting because magnetic simulations show that all of this should be possible without any loss. More on these later.

Edit: Just when I was making this post and exporting video, wm2d crashed and I lost it. So I need to rebuild it. Meanwhile I attached a sneak peak of the setup I wanted to show. I'll reedit this post when everything is set back up and uploaded.

Edit2: Oke got it all back now and changed the post to reflect initial will.
Title: Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
Post by: Low-Q on November 19, 2010, 08:35:35 PM
Below there is a method of magnetizing the rotating outer rotor without rotating the magnetic field. The eccentric rotor is just magnets pointing outwards. Look close to it - maybe you guys see something I don't. Also a FEMM file are attached. In the simulation I move the whole motor up and down one step in order to measure torque around point 0, 0 for both rotors (The eccentric rotor are 1cm lower than the center of the outer rotor).

Vidar
Title: Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
Post by: broli on November 19, 2010, 10:05:47 PM
That's quite a drastic change from your original concept. The geometry is the same but the field configuration is completely changed.

Edit: I added a 3d rendition of how I thought your original design was magnetized. Imo it's much more straightforward than your simulated design. The only problem is that you need a 3d simulator to simulate such setup. However the 2d simulation I posted earlier is a good approximation. It's also not difficult to switch the poles of those ferro materials.
Title: Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
Post by: Low-Q on November 19, 2010, 11:59:04 PM
Thanks alot for sharing this. It should probably be much easier to build. Only one thing I wonder about, is how much of the magnetic field will be left to be guided into the outer rotor and towards the eccentric rotor - like the example in the last picture? The magnetic field will use the shortest and easiest path to close the magnetic loop, so I am afraid almost none of it are willing to affect the eccentric rotor in any kind.
I had an idea of making the magnetic path for the outer rotor as difficult and long as possible, so most possible magnetic flux could affect the rotors.

I have som parts in my office I can use. A couple of cylindric big neos, and lots of iron powder discs I can cut into any shape I want. I want to stick to the example in the simulations, because I believe that works well to confirm wether it will or will not be a functional motor.

But don't hold your breath. I will definitely take a while - time flies when you have fun :)
Title: Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
Post by: broli on November 20, 2010, 12:26:43 AM
Vidar, I think the big "magic" here is the "free" flip of the poles. The 2d simulation I made can be much simpler by only one rotor and no gearing. At every pole reversal you put a stator magnet, this will serve as the attraction and repulsion mechanism. While the static pole reversal magnets causes the switch between these forces. At least vizimag simulation confirms these forces. I attached some images. The good thing about this is you don't need to cut ring magnets in two, you could just test the concept by using coils instead.

If you think this got offtopic please say so, but it is inspired by this thread.
Title: Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
Post by: lumen on November 20, 2010, 05:26:55 AM
@Broli

I think your animation demo is perfect! This should work if all moving parts are NOT magnets. The center could be a ring magnet covering 1/2 of the four rotating center steel pieces, and the outer could be a split ring magnet covering only the outer 1/2, of the five outer steel pieces. Like the gray area you indicate, would be air and the ring magnet would start outside of that.
It's perfect because in this setup, the sticky areas are exactly balanced from the opposing side leaving only a repelling condition on the right and attraction on the left, exactly as you have shown!

It still needs gearing though, because both inner and outer steel pieces must move. The inner steel pieces do not change field while rotating, so something could be done like possibly a magnet, but you would need to be careful not to let the field become too strong and overpower the switching action of the outer pieces. Especially at the bottom where the switching takes place in close proximity.

 

Title: Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
Post by: broli on November 20, 2010, 11:28:57 AM
but you would need to be careful not to let the field become too strong and overpower the switching action of the outer pieces. Especially at the bottom where the switching takes place in close proximity.

I have tried different radi and it always worked. So the magnet can be as far from the switching ferromagnet as you like to rule out any negative influence due to the field of the magnet. Yet another way to do this is by using a weaker stator magnet than the magnets magnetizing the ferromagnet.

Concerning the gears. It's just mathematical logic. We know due to newtons 3rd law both have the same torques but in opposite direction, however due to the gearing the one with highest ratio ie rotational speed will "win" and drive the system. But if you take any motor concept DC, induction, homopolar... And apply this concept to it of using the reaction torque. You'll always find you didn't negate back emf but just played around with torque to have one system dragging the other.

However in low-q's design the fundamental concept is the switching of poles. I don't like to use this term, but in essence the "sticky" point is instantly and passively switched to give a repulsion. This I think is the real magic and boils down to the simple design I posted last.
Title: Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
Post by: Low-Q on November 20, 2010, 02:13:03 PM
I am really exited about how this discussion has turned. However I am not responsible for the possibly waste of time if this concept turns out to be a none working one - my initial one or the ideas which has showed up lately. That said, i am very exited, problems with sleeping, headacke etc. :). The essence are boiled down to the torque and how the gear ratio affects the general design. Thanks for your time this far. Meanwhile I will try to make a motor with the equipment I already have. Wish me good luck, and fingers crossed:)
Title: Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
Post by: broli on November 20, 2010, 07:55:14 PM
Here's some more fuel to the fire. Attached are some renditions of a more engineer friendly design. The clear acrylic plastic can just be  wood. I also would just use coils initially to cut cost down and try to  have a proof of concept asap.
   
I hope Clanzer can get his service going soon. Most of the time money  is not the problem, it's how you spend it and where. We could even split  the bill on an promising open idea. This is what true open source  collaboration is about.
Title: Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
Post by: Low-Q on November 20, 2010, 08:09:53 PM
@broli

Have you simulated on these new designs? I cannot see how this can work. I see no torque (?)

Very nice pictures you got! I believed a moment you actually had made a real model already :)

Anyway, if it is this simple to build, I have all I need to make one quite asap.

EDIT: Now I see how it works - I was just blind for a moment.

Vidar
Title: Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
Post by: broli on November 20, 2010, 09:47:47 PM
@broli

Have you simulated on these new designs? I cannot see how this can work. I see no torque (?)

Very nice pictures you got! I believed a moment you actually had made a real model already :)

Anyway, if it is this simple to build, I have all I need to make one quite asap.

EDIT: Now I see how it works - I was just blind for a moment.

Vidar

For future reference, attached is the simplest form of how this concept works. This should allow everyone to understand the concept.
Title: Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
Post by: Low-Q on November 21, 2010, 11:33:53 AM
For future reference, attached is the simplest form of how this concept works. This should allow everyone to understand the concept.
This particular design has a problem. The steel pieces are busy with guiding the magnetic flux between the donut-magnets on the outside, and will therfor not have a magnetic flux that is looping from N to S on the outside - which is essential for affecting the cylindrical magnet on the top (and bottom). I tested a small linear model yesterday. I used a steel ball instead, but that does not change anything. It feels a sticky spot where the donut magnets are shifting polarity. Also the steel ball does not attract or repel the cylindrical stator magnet on the top. It seems that the steel ball does not "see" the cylindrical magnet at all.

There is also another problem I discovered this morning - the truth finally hit me hard and brutal :( :
I was simulating further on my own idea. I have done a terrible mistake by a mistake choosen wrong material for the outer gear. I have used a neomagnet material with fixed polarity horizontal regardless of rotation, and not the iron material I was suppose to have. When I swithced to iron, the torque are now in average 20% greater on the outer gear compared to the eccentric gear - exactly what it "should" be... However, still no sticky spot which is the only good thing left after this experiment.

I say this now as early as possible (It's now 11:30 AM where I live), so you do not have to waste more time on this. Unless you guys want to experiment further with switching polarities without a sticky spot. I will too.

So I have tried many different ways to keep the properties of a permanent magnet by changing shapes, materials etc on this outer gear, but are not able to replicate the properties of the outer gear as a neo magnet. The magnetic field inside the iron takes a different path when only magnetized from the outside compared to when it was a neo magnet with its own "controlled" magnetism. This is the reason this experiment did finally fail. I am really sorry for wasting your time on this.
 
:) :) :)
I have however another hope in mind which is the posibility to make a homopolar motor with several windings to decrease current and increase voltage. I will experiment by turning the outer gear into an electromagnet, keep the outer permanent magnets as usual, let the windings be fed by pure DC current. The hope is to make an equivalent to a permanent magnet (Like the mistake I made), and then make a motor which is brushless, running straight from the battery without complicated electronics.
I will make a simple drawing of this and post here later.


Vidar
Title: Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
Post by: FatChance!!! on November 21, 2010, 11:40:53 AM
I'm so sorry that I was right in this....
When will we find the path to overunity....if ever?

I wish you the best of luck even though I sincerely believe you will find out
that you missed some important data in the simulation and there will be no OU.

I have done a terrible mistake by a mistake choosen wrong material for the outer gear.
Title: Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
Post by: broli on November 21, 2010, 11:41:21 AM
This particular design has a problem. The steel pieces are busy with guiding the magnetic flux between the donut-magnets on the outside, and will therfor not have a magnetic flux that is looping from N to S on the outside - which is essential for affecting the cylindrical magnet on the top (and bottom). I tested a small linear model yesterday. I used a steel ball instead, but that does not change anything. It feels a sticky spot where the donut magnets are shifting polarity.

The interaction between the ferromaterial and magnetizing PM or EM is irrelevant. This interaction is completely symmetrical and thus cancels out.

Also the steel ball does not attract or repel the cylindrical stator  magnet on the top. It seems that the steel ball does not "see" the  cylindrical magnet at all.

I had different results. I used a cylindrical shape ferromaterial between ferrite magnets (with an air gap to allow movement). When I approached it with a neo I could either push the ferromaterial slightly or attract it when it clearly wanted to stay in the sticky spot. However there's a threshold, if you get too close the ferrite loses and the ferromaterial  will always attract to your approaching cylindrical magnet. It's subtle but it's there. That's why the engineering model has adjustable slots for the cylindrical magnet.

You shouldn't think too much about flux trapping. Because the ferromaterial essentially becomes a magnet, if you look at the coil design the ferromaterial will have maximum magnetization because it's positioned in the middle of the coils. Whereas the field of the outside magnet is so weak and dispersed it has little effect on the MAGNETIZATION aspect, but it will still interact with the ferromaterial if it was a magnet.
Title: Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
Post by: Low-Q on November 21, 2010, 12:29:27 PM
Here is the idea with the coil instead of a permanent magnet outer rotor. The coil are stationary winded like you see in the drawing. Axels to each rotor are able to exit through the windings. If this electromagnetic outer rotor have the same properstis as if it was a permanentmagnet, we have sucessfully made a "homopolar" motor and solved the problems with brushes, high current, low voltage, and low efficiency.
Title: Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
Post by: Low-Q on November 21, 2010, 12:37:45 PM
The interaction between the ferromaterial and magnetizing PM or EM is irrelevant. This interaction is completely symmetrical and thus cancels out.

I had different results. I used a cylindrical shape ferromaterial between ferrite magnets (with an air gap to allow movement). When I approached it with a neo I could either push the ferromaterial slightly or attract it when it clearly wanted to stay in the sticky spot. However there's a threshold, if you get too close the ferrite loses and the ferromaterial  will always attract to your approaching cylindrical magnet. It's subtle but it's there. That's why the engineering model has adjustable slots for the cylindrical magnet.

You shouldn't think too much about flux trapping. Because the ferromaterial essentially becomes a magnet, if you look at the coil design the ferromaterial will have maximum magnetization because it's positioned in the middle of the coils. Whereas the field of the outside magnet is so weak and dispersed it has little effect on the MAGNETIZATION aspect, but it will still interact with the ferromaterial if it was a magnet.
How can they cancel out when the steel poston at the top and the bottom are approaching the same scenario? I see that the polarity are opposite, but it is opposit in both the cylindrical magnet and the outer donut magnet, so the bottom steel cylinder will "see" the same forces as the one which is approaching the top. The sticky spots are rather adding up than cancelling out.

Vidar
Title: Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
Post by: broli on November 21, 2010, 01:13:18 PM
How can they cancel out when the steel poston at the top and the bottom are approaching the same scenario? I see that the polarity are opposite, but it is opposit in both the cylindrical magnet and the outer donut magnet, so the bottom steel cylinder will "see" the same forces as the one which is approaching the top. The sticky spots are rather adding up than cancelling out.

Vidar

Why did you ignore the part after the steel leaves the sticky spot. Surely you would have seen this in your experiments. When you arrive at the pole switch there's your mentioned sticky spot but once you make it through the steel is pushed out of the sticky spot. So +repulsion -repulsion = 0. This is magnetics 101.
Title: Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
Post by: Low-Q on November 21, 2010, 01:48:55 PM
Why did you ignore the part after the steel leaves the sticky spot. Surely you would have seen this in your experiments. When you arrive at the pole switch there's your mentioned sticky spot but once you make it through the steel is pushed out of the sticky spot. So +repulsion -repulsion = 0. This is magnetics 101.
What I am concerned about is the strength of the sticky spot, for how long it lasts (The total energy required to pass through the sticky area) versus the energy provided by the attraction and repulsion before and after the sticky area. The attraction and the repulsion strength are also very weak not far from the cylindrical magnet. It is the average force over a total distance/revolution which is interesting, not peaks of great forces which lasts for a few millimeters.

Forces seem promesing if they are strong, but they also do not last for very long, which in turn do not provide much energy after all.

EDIT: My experiments did not show much of an attraction or repulsion before and after the sticky spot. In fact the steel ball feels a slight repulsion right before it enters the sticky spot. This is what i saw when experimenting with SMOTs. If the ball quite far from the enterance of the SMOT ramp, the steel ball was repelled away instead of being attracted. When the steel ball came too close, it finally was attracted to the ramp, and got "sucked in".

Vidar
Title: Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
Post by: lumen on November 21, 2010, 08:34:15 PM
@Broli
So far I haven't seen any real show stoppers explained at this point. I am concerned about your simplified design missing an important detail. With a stationary magnet placed at the switching point, the steel will only average out a new switching point and not perform any additional work. It will simply see the stationary magnet as a continuation of the switching magnet.

Title: Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
Post by: broli on November 21, 2010, 08:46:38 PM
@Broli
So far I haven't seen any real show stoppers explained at this point. I am concerned about your simplified design missing an important detail. With a stationary magnet placed at the switching point, the steel will only average out a new switching point and not perform any additional work. It will simply see the stationary magnet as a continuation of the switching magnet.

Hypothetically we can assume that the stat. magnet has no influence on the magnetic domains of the steel due its distance and the local stronger magnetizing field of the coil. However the steel should still act as a magnet and interact as one with the stat. magnet ie. push and pulling it. However lowq may be right when it comes to force magnitudes. Because this so called interaction really happens before and after the switch where the distance is still relatively big between these two. So any energy gain might be sucked up by losses of the system, most notably bearing losses.

I have decided to build this concept in a very professional way. And by also building my own magnetic bearings to rule out any doubt. I hope it can be completed before the end of December. Anyone is free to assist in the building plans, for instance by making cad drawings and build suggestions.
Title: Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
Post by: lumen on November 22, 2010, 06:42:23 AM
I wasn't going to post this in this thread, but because it works on the same principal, I thought it might shed some insight.

Basically the flexible rings separate as they pass into the magnetic field. As they separate, they press on the rollers and achieve forward angular force which rotates the rotor. Because the rotor never moves into or out of the field, the main drag is domain stiction and eddy currents at high rpm. Both of these can be virtually eliminated with the correct ring material.

Title: Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
Post by: Low-Q on November 22, 2010, 08:50:17 PM
I wasn't going to post this in this thread, but because it works on the same principal, I thought it might shed some insight.

Basically the flexible rings separate as they pass into the magnetic field. As they separate, they press on the rollers and achieve forward angular force which rotates the rotor. Because the rotor never moves into or out of the field, the main drag is domain stiction and eddy currents at high rpm. Both of these can be virtually eliminated with the correct ring material.
I wish it was that easy. I have posted a thread a few days ago with a similar idea here:http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10029.0 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10029.0)
Mine use two parallell steel chains which enters a magnet and are forced apart. Then they push on two none magnetic rollers (Look like gears on a bicycle, but not magnetic material). The magnetic chain also also enters a N/S to be forced together again. Again they are pushing similar rollers in the same direction. Look closely on the drawing in this post. I haven't found any reason (yet) why this will not work...except it would theoretically be easier to enter the first magnet than exiting it. The magnet will pull harder on metal pieces whicn is further apart than close together...then the separated parts will be forced in the opposite direction and counter force the push it does on the roller.

In a few days I will probably find myself in the big black hole again ... finally found where the flaw has been hidden all the time :-\

Title: Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
Post by: Low-Q on November 22, 2010, 09:10:35 PM
Here is a simple version that should work as good (or bad)...
Title: Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
Post by: lumen on November 22, 2010, 09:23:55 PM
I wish it was that easy. I have posted a thread a few days ago with a similar idea here:http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10029.0 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10029.0)
Mine use two parallell steel chains which enters a magnet and are forced apart. Then they push on two none magnetic rollers (Look like gears on a bicycle, but not magnetic material). The magnetic chain also also enters a N/S to be forced together again. Again they are pushing similar rollers in the same direction. Look closely on the drawing in this post. I haven't found any reason (yet) why this will not work...except it would theoretically be easier to enter the first magnet than exiting it. The magnet will pull harder on metal pieces whicn is further apart than close together...then the separated parts will be forced in the opposite direction and counter force the push it does on the roller.

In a few days I will probably find myself in the big black hole again ... finally found where the flaw has been hidden all the time :-\

Yes, your previous post does operate on the same principal. I was thinking the "V" gate toy in the other channel may be working on the same principal also, but I'm not sure how.

I built an expanding washer setup some time back, and did some tests on it. You would be surprised how much force the washers exert on each other. I think either concept could work but the one I posted looks easier to build. I was thinking just some thin shim steel rings, and take them to staples and have them laminated. Cut around the edges and mount them on an axle. Simple and easy.

The main concept is to move into the field where work could be done. The main problem I found with the expanding washers is the expanded washers require more force to remove from the field than when compressed. I'm thinking that in a continuous path where there is nothing moving into and out of the field, the increased attraction on the expanded area only adds to overall domain stiction. With the right material, this would not exist.

I see no reason why this concept does not work. (but Im sure I'll find out)




Title: Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
Post by: lumen on November 22, 2010, 09:29:24 PM
Omg, It's the Christmas OU device!
It might suffer from the pull on closer and exit expanded problem though.


 
Title: Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
Post by: lumen on November 23, 2010, 10:00:39 PM
@Low-Q
Sorry about the Christmas thing, I guess I was just to excited about the concept of operation in general.
I mean, this has to work! Just take into account the only two things that could possibly prevent it from working.

#1 Magnetic remanence.
Once somethings are magnetized, they tend to want to stay magnetized. There are materials used in shielding that do not remain magnetized and would be a good choice to eliminate this problem.

#2 Surface exposure.
If a stack of washers are exposed to a magnetic field in a parallel direction, they will become magnetized in a common direction and repel from each other. The attraction to the magnet also increases due to a larger exposed area to the magnetic field. But in a continuous band or ring, the increased field area does not increase or change the direction, it can only increase the #1 effect.

This shows that the RING MOTOR or your chain motor or several other motors that employ this concept are GUARANTEED to operate!

 
Title: Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
Post by: ramset on November 23, 2010, 10:23:43 PM
Vidar,
Maybe one more drawing please?

I don't understand the Christmas Motor,But I like Lumens enthusiasm,and it seems so simple!

Thanks
Chet
Title: Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
Post by: Low-Q on November 23, 2010, 10:56:36 PM
@Low-Q
Sorry about the Christmas thing, I guess I was just to excited about the concept of operation in general.
I mean, this has to work! Just take into account the only two things that could possibly prevent it from working.

#1 Magnetic remanence.
Once somethings are magnetized, they tend to want to stay magnetized. There are materials used in shielding that do not remain magnetized and would be a good choice to eliminate this problem.

#2 Surface exposure.
If a stack of washers are exposed to a magnetic field in a parallel direction, they will become magnetized in a common direction and repel from each other. The attraction to the magnet also increases due to a larger exposed area to the magnetic field. But in a continuous band or ring, the increased field area does not increase or change the direction, it can only increase the #1 effect.

This shows that the RING MOTOR or your chain motor or several other motors that employ this concept are GUARANTEED to operate!
Oh, don't be sorry :) I think it was very funny myself ;D I just haven't had time to make a comment to it... (It allways feels wierd when you say something, and everyone suddenly goes silent :o)

Anyway, regarting the latest posts, I suggest I link to my other thread on the subject, if that is OK with you (Not that I'm going to ask for your permission :D)

I put the link here, so everyone can follow our brilliant ideas ;): http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10029.0 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=10029.0)
Title: Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
Post by: Low-Q on November 23, 2010, 11:28:05 PM
Vidar,
Maybe one more drawing please?

I don't understand the Christmas Motor,But I like Lumens enthusiasm,and it seems so simple!

Thanks
Chet
I will make another motor-drawing tomorrow probably. I'll go to bed now. I's late (23:27 local time)
Christmas Motor! LOL ;D
Title: Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
Post by: Airstriker on November 24, 2010, 09:34:38 AM
I will make another motor-drawing tomorrow probably. I'll go to bed now. I's late (23:27 local time)
Christmas Motor! LOL ;D
late ? no! It's the beginning of the new day ! Time to think ;) After thinking (3 am :P), I like this Christmas motor ;) Anyway, some femm simulations should be done first.
Title: Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
Post by: Low-Q on November 24, 2010, 11:12:29 AM
late ? no! It's the beginning of the new day ! Time to think ;) After thinking (3 am :P), I like this Christmas motor ;) Anyway, some femm simulations should be done first.
If you can make FEMM to simulate a N-pole towards you (3D). Maybe an equivalent setup are possible which is supperted by FEMM (2D)
Title: Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
Post by: Airstriker on November 24, 2010, 01:24:33 PM
If you can make FEMM to simulate a N-pole towards you (3D). Maybe an equivalent setup are possible which is supperted by FEMM (2D)
That's exactly what I'm currently thinking of - how to rework it to make it a 2D simulation. Still nothing ;/
Title: Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
Post by: Low-Q on November 24, 2010, 03:08:15 PM
You can try this?

Those two grey wheels are actually gears with long teeth, but it was too time consuming to make it in Photoshop.

Idea of operation:
The teeth on the left side are facing equal pole and want to go apart.
The teeth on the right side are facing two poles, and wants to approach.

Vidar
Title: Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
Post by: broli on November 24, 2010, 04:37:32 PM
You can try this?

Those two grey wheels are actually gears with long teeth, but it was too time consuming to make it in Photoshop.

Idea of operation:
The teeth on the left side are facing equal pole and want to go apart.
The teeth on the right side are facing two poles, and wants to approach.

Vidar

This reminds me of a no back emf idea I had during my homopolar discoveries.The ferro magnetic disc is what should rotate. Orange parts is stationary current wire.The magnets and blocks are also stationary.

The idea was that as the disc wants to rotate to align with the current wire, the stationary magnets adjust its fields. So it will perpetually try to allign with the current wire but never achieve this state.
Title: Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
Post by: Airstriker on November 24, 2010, 09:36:23 PM
Did some pictures on the paper - unfortunatelly the oryginal "Christmas motor" has sticky point ;] If you start with the setup as drawn on the first picture and don't touch any of the "wheels", the first "wheel" on top will stop just as it is, and the second "wheel" at the bottom will slightly turn right till one of it's arms rests on (touch) the bottom arm of the first "wheel". That's it. Nothing more will happen :(