Language: 
To browser these website, it's necessary to store cookies on your computer.
The cookies contain no personal information, they are required for program control.
  the storage of cookies while browsing this website, on Login and Register.

GDPR and DSGVO law

Storing Cookies (See : http://ec.europa.eu/ipg/basics/legal/cookies/index_en.htm ) help us to bring you our services at overunity.com . If you use this website and our services you declare yourself okay with using cookies .More Infos here:
https://overunity.com/5553/privacy-policy/
If you do not agree with storing cookies, please LEAVE this website now. From the 25th of May 2018, every existing user has to accept the GDPR agreement at first login. If a user is unwilling to accept the GDPR, he should email us and request to erase his account. Many thanks for your understanding.
Amazon Warehouse Deals ! Now even more Deep Discounts ! Check out these great prices on slightly used or just opened once only items.I always buy my gadgets via these great Warehouse deals ! Highly recommended ! Many thanks for supporting OverUnity.com this way.

User Menu

Tesla Paper

Free Energy Book

Get paid

Donations

Please Donate for the Forum.
Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.(Admin)

A-Ads

Powerbox

Smartbox

3D Solar

3D Solar Panels

DC2DC converter

Micro JouleThief

FireMatch

FireMatch

CCKnife

CCKnife

CCTool

CCTool

Magpi Magazine

Magpi Magazine Free Rasberry Pi Magazine

Battery Recondition

Battery Recondition

Arduino

Ultracaps

YT Subscribe

Gravity Machines

Tesla-Ebook

Magnet Secrets

Lindemann Video

Navigation

Products

Products

WaterMotor kit

Statistics

  • *Total Members: 83907
  • *Latest: Vi

  • *Total Posts: 524046
  • *Total Topics: 15602
  • *Online Today: 44
  • *Most Online: 103
(December 19, 2006, 11:27:19 PM)
  • *Users: 5
  • *Guests: 11
  • *Total: 16

Author Topic: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea  (Read 25232 times)

Offline Low-Q

  • without_ads
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2838
Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2010, 10:38:23 AM »
Hold on folks I am simulating OU in FEMM...

An example from one of the simulations:

Took a very thorough test last night. It looks like the torque of the eccentric rotor is about 9 percent higher than the outer rotor at any given position. This conflict is clearly against what I have learned about the exchange if we are to preserve energy transfer 1 to 1. In a model with outer diameter of 5cm rotor, giving an average 1.41Nm, while the eccentric and smaller rotor giving on average 1.54Nm. This is at first 9% difference - the wrong way! That should be the reverse. So I counted out the force of the two rotors physical radius. They are on the outer- and eccentric rotor, respectively 56.4 N and 77N. There is a difference of 20.6 N, which is then left over to overcome the back torque from the outer rotor! I do not understand this!

Believe me, I have simulated this many times now, with different sizes, magnetic strength etc. No matter what, I get OU!

I think it is time to build this. Make a simple prototype should be easy :)

Vidar

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2010, 10:38:23 AM »

Offline FatChance!!!

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 197
Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
« Reply #16 on: November 19, 2010, 12:17:31 PM »
I wish you the best of luck even though I sincerely believe you will find out
that you missed some important data in the simulation and there will be no OU.

But...if you do have success, please update us as fast and thoroughly as possible.
We would all like to replicate a real working device for once!!!

Offline Airstriker

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 330
    • anonimowosc.org
Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2010, 01:54:39 PM »
This looks pretty well. However, at this moment I have no idea how you want to make the magnetisation of the outer wheel static - not moving with the wheel and also not affecting the magnetisation of the internal wheel. The internal wheel can be made of a long enough magnet so that the external wheel sees only one pole ('S') - probably a special shaped magnet is needed here and also note the weight of the magnet will be quite big. But what to do with the external wheel I don't know. Any ideas ? Maybe a ring magnet magnetized through the diameter ? A big one ;] But then eddy currents come into play - laminated (maybe special material) outer wheel needed.
All in all, I see this project quite expensive ;/
A 3D simulation would be quite helpfull here. But I'm affreaid we don't have any skilled person here on forum who can handle this ?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2010, 01:54:39 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline broli

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2217
Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
« Reply #18 on: November 19, 2010, 05:55:33 PM »
I did a dummy simulation in wm2d. I used electrostatic charges instead. But you can actually view these as cylindrical magnets as well. I think this would be even easier to build than your highly geometric concept low-q  :P .

Like your animation this simulation uses gears. The ratio has to be exactly 1.25 anything else and it will just oscillate back and forth.

Here's a video of the build and below is the simulation file and some a picture of the rotational speed and acceleration graph.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDRvUNBPyng

This is really exciting because magnetic simulations show that all of this should be possible without any loss. More on these later.

Edit: Just when I was making this post and exporting video, wm2d crashed and I lost it. So I need to rebuild it. Meanwhile I attached a sneak peak of the setup I wanted to show. I'll reedit this post when everything is set back up and uploaded.

Edit2: Oke got it all back now and changed the post to reflect initial will.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2010, 06:54:54 PM by broli »

Offline Low-Q

  • without_ads
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2838
Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
« Reply #19 on: November 19, 2010, 08:35:35 PM »
Below there is a method of magnetizing the rotating outer rotor without rotating the magnetic field. The eccentric rotor is just magnets pointing outwards. Look close to it - maybe you guys see something I don't. Also a FEMM file are attached. In the simulation I move the whole motor up and down one step in order to measure torque around point 0, 0 for both rotors (The eccentric rotor are 1cm lower than the center of the outer rotor).

Vidar

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
« Reply #19 on: November 19, 2010, 08:35:35 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline broli

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2217
Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
« Reply #20 on: November 19, 2010, 10:05:47 PM »
That's quite a drastic change from your original concept. The geometry is the same but the field configuration is completely changed.

Edit: I added a 3d rendition of how I thought your original design was magnetized. Imo it's much more straightforward than your simulated design. The only problem is that you need a 3d simulator to simulate such setup. However the 2d simulation I posted earlier is a good approximation. It's also not difficult to switch the poles of those ferro materials.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2010, 11:19:53 PM by broli »

Offline Low-Q

  • without_ads
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2838
Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2010, 11:59:04 PM »
Thanks alot for sharing this. It should probably be much easier to build. Only one thing I wonder about, is how much of the magnetic field will be left to be guided into the outer rotor and towards the eccentric rotor - like the example in the last picture? The magnetic field will use the shortest and easiest path to close the magnetic loop, so I am afraid almost none of it are willing to affect the eccentric rotor in any kind.
I had an idea of making the magnetic path for the outer rotor as difficult and long as possible, so most possible magnetic flux could affect the rotors.

I have som parts in my office I can use. A couple of cylindric big neos, and lots of iron powder discs I can cut into any shape I want. I want to stick to the example in the simulations, because I believe that works well to confirm wether it will or will not be a functional motor.

But don't hold your breath. I will definitely take a while - time flies when you have fun :)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2010, 11:59:04 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline broli

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2217
Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2010, 12:26:43 AM »
Vidar, I think the big "magic" here is the "free" flip of the poles. The 2d simulation I made can be much simpler by only one rotor and no gearing. At every pole reversal you put a stator magnet, this will serve as the attraction and repulsion mechanism. While the static pole reversal magnets causes the switch between these forces. At least vizimag simulation confirms these forces. I attached some images. The good thing about this is you don't need to cut ring magnets in two, you could just test the concept by using coils instead.

If you think this got offtopic please say so, but it is inspired by this thread.

Offline lumen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1372
Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
« Reply #23 on: November 20, 2010, 05:26:55 AM »
@Broli

I think your animation demo is perfect! This should work if all moving parts are NOT magnets. The center could be a ring magnet covering 1/2 of the four rotating center steel pieces, and the outer could be a split ring magnet covering only the outer 1/2, of the five outer steel pieces. Like the gray area you indicate, would be air and the ring magnet would start outside of that.
It's perfect because in this setup, the sticky areas are exactly balanced from the opposing side leaving only a repelling condition on the right and attraction on the left, exactly as you have shown!

It still needs gearing though, because both inner and outer steel pieces must move. The inner steel pieces do not change field while rotating, so something could be done like possibly a magnet, but you would need to be careful not to let the field become too strong and overpower the switching action of the outer pieces. Especially at the bottom where the switching takes place in close proximity.

 


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
« Reply #23 on: November 20, 2010, 05:26:55 AM »
3D Solar Panels

Offline broli

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2217
Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
« Reply #24 on: November 20, 2010, 11:28:57 AM »
but you would need to be careful not to let the field become too strong and overpower the switching action of the outer pieces. Especially at the bottom where the switching takes place in close proximity.

I have tried different radi and it always worked. So the magnet can be as far from the switching ferromagnet as you like to rule out any negative influence due to the field of the magnet. Yet another way to do this is by using a weaker stator magnet than the magnets magnetizing the ferromagnet.

Concerning the gears. It's just mathematical logic. We know due to newtons 3rd law both have the same torques but in opposite direction, however due to the gearing the one with highest ratio ie rotational speed will "win" and drive the system. But if you take any motor concept DC, induction, homopolar... And apply this concept to it of using the reaction torque. You'll always find you didn't negate back emf but just played around with torque to have one system dragging the other.

However in low-q's design the fundamental concept is the switching of poles. I don't like to use this term, but in essence the "sticky" point is instantly and passively switched to give a repulsion. This I think is the real magic and boils down to the simple design I posted last.

Offline Low-Q

  • without_ads
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2838
Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
« Reply #25 on: November 20, 2010, 02:13:03 PM »
I am really exited about how this discussion has turned. However I am not responsible for the possibly waste of time if this concept turns out to be a none working one - my initial one or the ideas which has showed up lately. That said, i am very exited, problems with sleeping, headacke etc. :). The essence are boiled down to the torque and how the gear ratio affects the general design. Thanks for your time this far. Meanwhile I will try to make a motor with the equipment I already have. Wish me good luck, and fingers crossed:)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
« Reply #25 on: November 20, 2010, 02:13:03 PM »
3D Solar Panels

Offline broli

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2217
Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
« Reply #26 on: November 20, 2010, 07:55:14 PM »
Here's some more fuel to the fire. Attached are some renditions of a more engineer friendly design. The clear acrylic plastic can just be  wood. I also would just use coils initially to cut cost down and try to  have a proof of concept asap.
   
I hope Clanzer can get his service going soon. Most of the time money  is not the problem, it's how you spend it and where. We could even split  the bill on an promising open idea. This is what true open source  collaboration is about.

Offline Low-Q

  • without_ads
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2838
Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
« Reply #27 on: November 20, 2010, 08:09:53 PM »
@broli

Have you simulated on these new designs? I cannot see how this can work. I see no torque (?)

Very nice pictures you got! I believed a moment you actually had made a real model already :)

Anyway, if it is this simple to build, I have all I need to make one quite asap.

EDIT: Now I see how it works - I was just blind for a moment.

Vidar

Offline broli

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2217
Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
« Reply #28 on: November 20, 2010, 09:47:47 PM »
@broli

Have you simulated on these new designs? I cannot see how this can work. I see no torque (?)

Very nice pictures you got! I believed a moment you actually had made a real model already :)

Anyway, if it is this simple to build, I have all I need to make one quite asap.

EDIT: Now I see how it works - I was just blind for a moment.

Vidar

For future reference, attached is the simplest form of how this concept works. This should allow everyone to understand the concept.

Offline Low-Q

  • without_ads
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2838
Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
« Reply #29 on: November 21, 2010, 11:33:53 AM »
For future reference, attached is the simplest form of how this concept works. This should allow everyone to understand the concept.
This particular design has a problem. The steel pieces are busy with guiding the magnetic flux between the donut-magnets on the outside, and will therfor not have a magnetic flux that is looping from N to S on the outside - which is essential for affecting the cylindrical magnet on the top (and bottom). I tested a small linear model yesterday. I used a steel ball instead, but that does not change anything. It feels a sticky spot where the donut magnets are shifting polarity. Also the steel ball does not attract or repel the cylindrical stator magnet on the top. It seems that the steel ball does not "see" the cylindrical magnet at all.

There is also another problem I discovered this morning - the truth finally hit me hard and brutal :( :
I was simulating further on my own idea. I have done a terrible mistake by a mistake choosen wrong material for the outer gear. I have used a neomagnet material with fixed polarity horizontal regardless of rotation, and not the iron material I was suppose to have. When I swithced to iron, the torque are now in average 20% greater on the outer gear compared to the eccentric gear - exactly what it "should" be... However, still no sticky spot which is the only good thing left after this experiment.

I say this now as early as possible (It's now 11:30 AM where I live), so you do not have to waste more time on this. Unless you guys want to experiment further with switching polarities without a sticky spot. I will too.

So I have tried many different ways to keep the properties of a permanent magnet by changing shapes, materials etc on this outer gear, but are not able to replicate the properties of the outer gear as a neo magnet. The magnetic field inside the iron takes a different path when only magnetized from the outside compared to when it was a neo magnet with its own "controlled" magnetism. This is the reason this experiment did finally fail. I am really sorry for wasting your time on this.
 
:) :) :)
I have however another hope in mind which is the posibility to make a homopolar motor with several windings to decrease current and increase voltage. I will experiment by turning the outer gear into an electromagnet, keep the outer permanent magnets as usual, let the windings be fed by pure DC current. The hope is to make an equivalent to a permanent magnet (Like the mistake I made), and then make a motor which is brushless, running straight from the battery without complicated electronics.
I will make a simple drawing of this and post here later.


Vidar

 

OneLink