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Author Topic: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea  (Read 25231 times)

Offline Low-Q

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Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
« on: November 14, 2010, 12:57:34 PM »
Hi,

I have been thinking on a motor that works on the basics of a gear pump. Attached animations shows a magnetic gear motor. The outer rotor is made up of steel. This steel is rotating, but an external and fixed magnetic field is magnetizing it. The eccentric rotor inside are magnetized externally with the south pole.

Principle of operation:

In the right side of the motor, there are repelling force that want to expand the space between the eccentric rotor (S) and the outer rotor (S).
The left side of the motor, both the eccentric (S) and the outer rotor (N) wants to close the gap between those rotors.

Both these actions will force the rotors to rotate in one direction. In the area where the eccentric rotor tooth must go from N to S in the bottom, and S to N on the top, will hopefully cancel eachother out, so it will not prevent the motor to start running.

I have not tested this, and wil probably not. I have no 3D magnetic software to simulate this.

Any opinions, thoughts are welcome :)

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Offline Low-Q

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Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2010, 08:21:40 PM »
I was thinking about something:

The inner rotor is allways rotating faster than the outer rotor. This allows the inner (eccentric) rotor to escape from the repulsion part, and approach the attractive part - just as it should. There will allways be a difference in magnetic flux density so the inner rotor will chase its equilibrium, but never finds it. Hence the motor will run untill the magnetism are gone (?).

Vidar

Offline lumen

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Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2010, 05:11:51 AM »
I was thinking about something:

The inner rotor is always rotating faster than the outer rotor. This allows the inner (eccentric) rotor to escape from the repulsion part, and approach the attractive part - just as it should. There will allways be a difference in magnetic flux density so the inner rotor will chase its equilibrium, but never finds it. Hence the motor will run until the magnetism are gone (?).

Vidar

It's an interesting concept. I see it not working as shown but if both the rotor and stator are rotating and of laminated steel, it sure seems it could work.
A shift of the field change area of about 22.5 degrees on the stator and a small area of blue on the rotor to start the repelling with the same pole before the switch to the red area.

Not sure, but it can't work as shown because it is moving into red from blue and it will want to attract back to the blue area at that point. I think you may be close to something!



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Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2010, 05:11:51 AM »
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Offline nightlife

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Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2010, 07:54:31 AM »
It's an interesting concept. I see it not working as shown but if both the rotor and stator are rotating and of laminated steel, it sure seems it could work.
A shift of the field change area of about 22.5 degrees on the stator and a small area of blue on the rotor to start the repelling with the same pole before the switch to the red area.

Not sure, but it can't work as shown because it is moving into red from blue and it will want to attract back to the blue area at that point. I think you may be close to something!




 I disagree, I think it may work as shown because it seems to be repelling and attracting enough to get thru the gate. It's definutly worth exploring.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2010, 08:22:56 AM by nightlife »

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2010, 06:24:20 PM »
It's an interesting concept. I see it not working as shown but if both the rotor and stator are rotating and of laminated steel, it sure seems it could work.
A shift of the field change area of about 22.5 degrees on the stator and a small area of blue on the rotor to start the repelling with the same pole before the switch to the red area.

Not sure, but it can't work as shown because it is moving into red from blue and it will want to attract back to the blue area at that point. I think you may be close to something!
I can agree with this, but this counter force also applies the opposite way on the top of the rotors. The case is that the outer rotor are forced to the left, and the eccentric rotor are forced to the right. This means when the bottom part of the eccentric rotor moves from blue to red, it is in some extent conterforced by the movement from red to blue on the top. The top of the eccentric wheel are facing this change fron red to blue 20% faster than it does on the bottom. So the energy that should prevent rotation, might seem to be less than expected - even zero...

Also take into account the difference in RPMs. The difference are about 20%. The torque should be equal on both rotors (Force equals counterforce), but the energy should then be greater in the eccentric rotor as the RPMs are 20% greater than the outer rotor. Could this difference do any good? Could this mean that the efficiency are 120%?

Vidar

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Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2010, 06:24:20 PM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2010, 11:33:30 PM »
I did now a simulation of a similar motor in FEMM. I tested different surroundings also. The simulation shows that the torque are quite smooth, and therfor evenly spread during each revolution. There are no typical sticky spots! I did not expect that to happen...

Anyways, the simulation shows that the average torque of the eccentric rotor are 70.5Nm while the average torque in the outer rotor are -67Nm.
These torque measurements are as expected - quite equal.

The thing now are the RPM's. There is no doubts that the a given Nm at higher RPM can provide more energy than the same Nm at lower RPMs. It seems to me after this simulation, that the energy provided by the eccentric rotor are 20% plus the 3.5 extra Nm torque - results in about 125% overunity... (???)

The shape of the rotors in the simulation are not as ideal like the shape in the animation, but almost the same shape.

Vidar

Offline lumen

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Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2010, 05:47:52 AM »
Yes, I was looking for the actual sticky location and it does appear to be compensated for by the other transition area.
When I get some time, this would be a good test for a 3D simulator or possibly a test build. I wonder what the best direction of lamination would be?

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Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2010, 05:47:52 AM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2010, 02:26:58 PM »
Yes, I was looking for the actual sticky location and it does appear to be compensated for by the other transition area.
When I get some time, this would be a good test for a 3D simulator or possibly a test build. I wonder what the best direction of lamination would be?
If you're going to use laminated steel, have in mind that both rotors are rotating. So stacking the steel sheets axially would be best I guess.

Vidar

Offline void109

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Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2010, 05:52:19 PM »
I have a question regarding the principle of operation.  Maybe its two questions!

The static magnetic field magnetizes the steel.  I'd like to assume that you could replace the steel with a ferrous material, like a balun rod.  If I'm picturing what you have in your animation correctly, then I should be able to fix two magnets with say the south pole facing the same direction, and close, relatively to each other.  Then if I bring two ferrous bars or rods over the two poles, the rods would repel each other?

I'm just trying to picture a simple way to test the principle.  If the above sounds correct, I'll try that.

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Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2010, 05:52:19 PM »
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Offline lumen

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Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2010, 06:20:51 PM »
I have a question regarding the principle of operation.  Maybe its two questions!

The static magnetic field magnetizes the steel.  I'd like to assume that you could replace the steel with a ferrous material, like a balun rod.  If I'm picturing what you have in your animation correctly, then I should be able to fix two magnets with say the south pole facing the same direction, and close, relatively to each other.  Then if I bring two ferrous bars or rods over the two poles, the rods would repel each other?

I'm just trying to picture a simple way to test the principle.  If the above sounds correct, I'll try that.

Or try placing the two rods on the end of a single large magnet.  :-X

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2010, 07:12:43 PM »
I have a question regarding the principle of operation.  Maybe its two questions!

The static magnetic field magnetizes the steel.  I'd like to assume that you could replace the steel with a ferrous material, like a balun rod.  If I'm picturing what you have in your animation correctly, then I should be able to fix two magnets with say the south pole facing the same direction, and close, relatively to each other.  Then if I bring two ferrous bars or rods over the two poles, the rods would repel each other?

I'm just trying to picture a simple way to test the principle.  If the above sounds correct, I'll try that.
You can cover the right part of the outer rotor AND the whole eccentric rotor with the south pole, and let the other pole cover the left side of the outer rotor only. Like lumen suggests, two ferromagnetic rods which is placed at the end of a bar magnet, will repel eachother.

This is also the principle of operation. The eccentric wheel wants to rotate towards the N pole and away from the S pole. As the outer and the eccentric rotor spins with different RPMs, but have the approx same torque, the energy of the eccentric rotor will be greater than the counter energy of the outer rotor.... this is what I think of it anyways :)

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Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2010, 07:12:43 PM »
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Offline void109

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Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2010, 07:21:29 PM »
I must be doing something incorrectly.  Using a 2" x 0.5" disc magnet with north facing up, and using two steel bars measuring 1" x 0.5" x 0.5", when holding them above the north face, any permutation of bar ends attract each other.

Very much an ad-hoc test, just using my hands, and holding it at arbitrary distances above the magnet (close, but not so close to cause the magnet to leap up to my soon-to-be crushed fingers).

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2010, 07:38:50 PM »
I must be doing something incorrectly.  Using a 2" x 0.5" disc magnet with north facing up, and using two steel bars measuring 1" x 0.5" x 0.5", when holding them above the north face, any permutation of bar ends attract each other.

Very much an ad-hoc test, just using my hands, and holding it at arbitrary distances above the magnet (close, but not so close to cause the magnet to leap up to my soon-to-be crushed fingers).
If the disc magnet are magnetized through thickness, you should have S pole on one flat surface, and N pole on the other flat surface. If you put one small steel ball on the S surface, it will move into the center. If you add one more (equal) steel ball, both balls will repell eachother and find themself apart with the same distance to the center of the disc.

Vidar

Offline lumen

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Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2010, 05:52:50 AM »
I must be doing something incorrectly.  Using a 2" x 0.5" disc magnet with north facing up, and using two steel bars measuring 1" x 0.5" x 0.5", when holding them above the north face, any permutation of bar ends attract each other.

Very much an ad-hoc test, just using my hands, and holding it at arbitrary distances above the magnet (close, but not so close to cause the magnet to leap up to my soon-to-be crushed fingers).

Void,
Find some strips of sheet metal about .o3" thick and .5 wide and about 2" long, hang then from some string and see if you can get them to stick together by placing the magnet beneath them.
They will attract to the magnet but repel from each other.
This concept is based on the same idea of the stack of washers between two magnets. All the washers will separate from each other when placed in the field lines of the magnets. I have done several experiments with this idea but there was the problem of the additional attraction when the washers are expanded.
This concept may provide the solution to the additional attraction problem that would prevent the washer concept from providing any gain in force due to the exit loss from additional attraction by changing back to an attraction state.

 
 

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Gear-magnet motor. Just a strange idea
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2010, 11:15:41 PM »
This motor is really buging me! I have simulated the torque to be allmost the same on eccentric rotor and outer rotor. But what bugs me is the difference in kinetic energy which is required to run these rotors. When the outer rotor have taken 4 revolutions at say 10Nm, the eccentric rotor has taken 5 revolutions at 10Nm. Isn't that 25% more energy from the eccentric rotor? And wouldn't that rotor "win" the battle and result in a self sustaining magnet motor?

Vidar

 

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