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Author Topic: Over Unity Lightbulb  (Read 32239 times)

Offline elgersmad

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Re: Over Unity Lightbulb
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2010, 11:02:51 PM »
All these simulator issues if resolved really only solve one problem with simulations compared to actual circuits.  The problem of finding the right values of capacitance to tune a group of transformers' primaries to the same frequency and coupling them output to input in several stages as in the schematic.  Normally, you'd tune the output stage, measure the impedance, replace the last stage with a substitute resistor of that value, tune the stage before the output, then hook those two up.  Inject a single to the two tuned stages, measure the impedance, replace that with a substitute resistor, then tune the stage before the two that were tuned.  Then getting them all precision tuned to the same frequency is possible, and once done will operate well over unity.  But, unless the simulator is operating right, you cannot do this without physically doing the latter mentioned in this message.  Then you'll find out that the simulator isn't using the same values of capacitance to zero in on the same frequency.

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Re: Over Unity Lightbulb
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2010, 11:02:51 PM »

Offline elgersmad

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Re: Over Unity Lightbulb
« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2010, 09:59:53 PM »
I believe that this article shows how and why my muscle circuit really winds up over unity.

Nonlinear Magnetic Transmission Lines/Metglas Pulse Shapers

The collapsing magnetic field that takes place in the core of an inductor or transformer is faster than the build up of magnetic lines when a pulse is applied.  As a result, self inductance actually pushes a few more electrons in the same direction at a higher energy level.  If you look at the pulse, the frequency is higher stage per stage.  If you look at my circuit, every stage is tuned to the same frequency.  The result is that at resonance the capacitors over fill after several cycles, so the first stage actually pushes a little more energy into the second stage, and the second stages pushes even more energy into the third.  As long as Q is high for every stage, it all adds up.

In modeling inductors, I believe that the reason why the inductance of the secondary changes, is that when the current is induced in the secondary it first breaks the magnetic circuit following Faraday's law of induction or Lenz law of equal but opposite force.  The more you draw from the secondary, the lower the inductance of the primary.  Second, the induced voltage on the secondary, uses part of the core to produce opposing magnetic lines due to the current flow in those coils.  THis uses part of the core and the magnetic circuit to produce magnetic lines that oppose the primary's magnetic field making north face north, and south face south.

So, no matter what the material, a better core would be in L shaped sections, and gapped in four places to produce what would appear to be a U core.  That would make L1 and L2, or the primary and the secondary adjustable values of inductance by adjusting the gap under the winding bobbins.  Then it would give you a value of inductance to work with that wouldn't change by so much because, of the two gaps between the the two windings.  It prevents one side of the core and windings from opposing the production of more magnetic lines.  Smaller slugs and the gapping would allow for a high resonant operating frequency as well.  It would be noisier as far as RF noise from the circuit.  But, the advantage of a higher operating frequency from a larger core is there.

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Offline Kator01

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Re: Over Unity Lightbulb
« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2010, 12:42:22 AM »
Hello elgersmad,

being from germany I have a problem to understand the term phelonic toroid-core ( air-stepup-transformer ). Can you show me a picture of how such a core looks like ?

Then the next question would be : How is the coupling of this phelonic-secondary done (in practical means) to K2 ?
By direct galvanic coupling ?

In your first post you talk about two iron-powder-cores ( yellow and white ) but in the circuit-diagramm i can spot only one iron-core.

Is there a chance that your add the cores so I can get a better idea of  what the real physical setup looks like.
Up until now there is much descriptions but I miss a pic of the physical arrangement. Since you claimed that you have already build such a device why not show the community here how this is done ?

Regards

Kator01

Offline elgersmad

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Re: Over Unity Lightbulb
« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2010, 06:49:53 AM »
Hello elgersmad,

being from germany I have a problem to understand the term phelonic toroid-core ( air-stepup-transformer ). Can you show me a picture of how such a core looks like ?

Then the next question would be : How is the coupling of this phelonic-secondary done (in practical means) to K2 ?
By direct galvanic coupling ?

In your first post you talk about two iron-powder-cores ( yellow and white ) but in the circuit-diagramm i can spot only one iron-core.

Is there a chance that your add the cores so I can get a better idea of  what the real physical setup looks like.
Up until now there is much descriptions but I miss a pic of the physical arrangement. Since you claimed that you have already build such a device why not show the community here how this is done ?

Regards

Kator01

Phenolic Core is basically just a cardboard tube held together with a resin.  For Toroids it doesn't work out unless the core has some permeability, and that would keep it from being Phenolic.  Usually, it just looks like a Tesla Coil, or an AutoTransformer.  Unless there are two complete layers of wire, you usually won't see a phenolic toroid.  It may look like one set of windings on a cardboard tube, with a second set of windings and a second piece of wire used as a primary or secondary.  It may be one continous winding, that is tapped, similar to a center tap but it may be offset to a winding ratio like 1:10 or 10:1.

Special Transformers

I don't feel like drawing a picture of a piece of pipe.


Offline elgersmad

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Re: Over Unity Lightbulb
« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2010, 07:22:48 AM »
Leakage Inductance

Even though using models of this sort does work out close in most cases, it's not the right result for designing resonant primary systems.  The leakage inductance, is the lowest value of inductance that your core will reach.  Then there is the highest.  From what I've been seeing, that would be Lp Min, and Lp Max would be measured with the secondary open.  Just like we use a model for saturation and BH curve matching, we need another equation to model this properly.  It is a linear response, and Lp Min in Henrys or the leakage inductance is about where your transformer winds up when the secondary is shorted, L Min, should change and work towards L Max in Henrys as the load increases.  I'm going to sit down with a transformer and inductance meter and potentiometer and work on my spice model for awhile.  I just need to use a volt meter and an ampere meter to calculate reflected impedance and convert it inductance at that frequency, making it dependant on the frequency of the source, just reverse the equation V=L*(di/dt) to find L.  THen Leakage is right for the model, and Mutual, is the same variable that it always was in an analog, and L can never be greater than L Max.

Then the model should match a real transformer by enough to be within a couple decimal places of an actual capacitors value required for the circuit compared to the simulator.  Just making it easier to buy the right parts in the first place or on the first try.  You'll still need the vacuum tuning capacitors to fine tune it anyway.  But, you'll be close enough to have all of the right parts the first time, or I will be.

In the spice model, it would mean getting ride of the series inductor in the transformer model for an inductor that was parallel to the ideal transformer that never dropped below the leakage value of inductance, and can rise higher than that pending upon the voltage and current of the output, keeping in mind the turn ratio in that equation.  Not only that since Inductance is ideal and the winding resistance added in as a value of resistor in the model, just what won't change doesn't.  Q will change as the inductance of the primary does as does in a real circuit.  Where L in henrys changes but the winding resistance and lenght of copper wire doesn't.

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Re: Over Unity Lightbulb
« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2010, 07:22:48 AM »
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Offline elgersmad

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Re: Over Unity Lightbulb
« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2010, 10:41:56 AM »
Well, I looked into On Demand Water Heaters, to gain some insight on how much energy is used to heat water, thinking, that with time and the development of Ferrite Cores that will heat up but last after being burned in that about the same amount of heat will be generated from the same amount of energy.  That is typical.  36Kw is about enough power to run an all electric on demand water heater.  Where the main difference in this design would be using the transformer core as a heat source via a built in heat exchange.  That would consist of drilling holes in the core, potentially lining it with glass, or ceramic to keep it from leaking.  Of course, you'd use a 10KW core that when air normally kept it cool by convection, was cooled internally at a higher rate, therefore driving it at 100 KW would produce all of the heat, and the coolant would go to another heat exchange.

The Diesle Engine is closer to what I believe can be done

Here's the deal, the permeability of space is 1, and you can build a transformer that is nearly 98% effecient without a core.  At that point, the permeability of anything over one, is literally a gain in energy.  If that is in effect partially the Q of a resonant tank circuit, and in part the features seen in magnetic transmission lines in how they can compress a pulse with, and place 100 joules on a point of less of a second, and it is no apparent gain, the inductors still do not like the thought of a current reversal, and when self inductance is involved it will attempt to follow through.  We have more proof in other circuits designed.  The metglass pulse compression circuit is really just a good example.

Offline elgersmad

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Re: Over Unity Lightbulb
« Reply #21 on: November 08, 2010, 11:07:39 AM »
The first real problem is fixing the spice models.  I believe that this model is the solution.  Basically, the other simulator models don't result in a changing inductance on the primary winding.  By measuring the current and voltage on the primary and backwards calculating the reflected impedances, you eventually will get to the unknown value of LP_Variable.  Usually, in the vast majority of spice models, that's considered mutal inductance.  But, reflected impedance can be measured as a change in the inductance of the primary in response to a load on the secondary.  So, none of the simulation models are taking that into account in resonant models.  I just haven't presented the equations because I'm still plunking around with my calculator to be absolutely certain that I can find that one unknown with the invormation that the rest circuit provides.  I've sat here with my inductance meter, and the difference between open and shorted is always telling me the same thing, that anywhere in between is just a different fraction of the difference.  I also noticed that you can bet a bad reading due to the stray capacitance of the secondary of a step up transformer.  So, I will have to break out my oscilloscope, signal generator and re-test my audio transformer because, my inductance meter is operating at a frequency so high, that if there were only one inductor, it would be fine.  Since, the stray capacitance of 1 Henry worth of windings are there when the transformer is reversed to a step up from the 8 ohms, the change is so small that it's telling me that  my meter is close to the self resonant frequency of the secondary.  It will be easier to test an RF transformer I have.  Other than that I don't see anything wrong with the model.  As for how it ends up over unity, is in part due to electrostatic induction, and how voltage leads in an inductor, and current lags, that doesn't prevent the path of another primary from allowing for some of that to happen, and actually moving just a few more electrons that initially provided.

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Re: Over Unity Lightbulb
« Reply #21 on: November 08, 2010, 11:07:39 AM »
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Offline elgersmad

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Re: Over Unity Lightbulb
« Reply #22 on: November 08, 2010, 11:27:51 AM »
You see, in a normal transformer with a complete magnetic circuit, Lenz Law is left out of the equation concerning core saturation but, it is real.  The counter EMF is producing a magnetizing current, even though it's the opposite polarity and like pole wind up facing in the transformer's core.  I have seen another model that takes into account, webbers and ampere turns, that can work but the core is approaching saturation when you combine both currents.  It's also changing the amount of the core available to accept or retain magnetic lines due to the opposing magnetic lines occupying the core's volume near the secondary.  That's why I was suggesting four L shaped pieces.  You could allow the rejected lines that don't fit from one set windings into the other set via the core to just eject into free space.  Then the primary would operate more like a moving magnet, even though nothing moves, and the secondary would just pick up the energy as if a magnet went flying past it at whatever rate of change occured.

Offline elgersmad

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Re: Over Unity Lightbulb
« Reply #23 on: November 09, 2010, 01:29:32 AM »
So, long as the ideal transformer model, or lossy core model are present in this schematic, and the transformer model is a step up, this set of equations fixes the primary of the model's reflected impedance as a change in inductance as is found in a real transformer.  Use only measured values, and if you haven't measured the values, then set them to zero such as stray capacitance.  Winding resistance should be measured.

Offline elgersmad

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Re: Over Unity Lightbulb
« Reply #24 on: November 09, 2010, 05:58:22 AM »
Oops
« Last Edit: November 09, 2010, 06:29:33 AM by elgersmad »

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Re: Over Unity Lightbulb
« Reply #24 on: November 09, 2010, 05:58:22 AM »
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Offline exnihiloest

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Re: Over Unity Lightbulb
« Reply #25 on: November 09, 2010, 08:53:11 AM »
I've built and tested the entire schematic.
...

I have already posted these questions:
Could you show us photos? I don't well understand how is connected the quartz tube.
And how did you lead measurements to demonstrate OU? Can you present them?

In at least 40 lines of your reply, I didn't find a single answer to one of my simple questions but simplistic generalities.
I must conclude you have no photos, you have neither measurement protocol nor measurement data, you have probably not built any thing, and you have only a ltspice shematic whose simulation module naturally disproves OU.
Case closed!


Offline elgersmad

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Re: Over Unity Lightbulb
« Reply #26 on: November 09, 2010, 10:40:27 PM »
I have already posted these questions:
In at least 40 lines of your reply, I didn't find a single answer to one of my simple questions but simplistic generalities.
I must conclude you have no photos, you have neither measurement protocol nor measurement data, you have probably not built any thing, and you have only a ltspice shematic whose simulation module naturally disproves OU.
Case closed!

Build 10 circuits that operate at 10 different frequencies and explain the results.  Oh, damn, you know that would just be a set of equations.  Other than that, I don't want you in my house, and pictures from inside, are just like letting you and everyone else inside.  I'm not taking pictures, and I could care less if you don't know anything about my furniture, carpet, shoe size or any of that.  I don't see how a picture of one transformer at my house, which looks just like another at anyone elses, is any different.  You can buy every single part I use.  If you want to see a doorknob capacitor or powdered iron toroid core just like mine, you can find those online too.  No need at all to waste my time packing a camera around my house just for you.  I won't do that because, I owe you no work of any kind at all. I don't owe you anything for your doubts.  It just tells me that you don't do the math, or don't have First Year College Electronics under your belt.  I've often found some kid trying to play bigshot hiding under show me, and capitalizing on nothing works as a declaration and constant.  You'd tell me a vacuum tube amplifier wouldn't work, or you couldn't use a magnetic amplifier for a louder boom box.  As long as you've haven't seen it, you'll maintain that it don't work.  The truth is more likely you don't even have enough an education to make or conclude with any math at all.  You may quote a scientist, that didn't work with this set of components.

Known Factors Concerning Parallel Tuned Circuits


That condition exists for every capacitor in parallel with a primary winding of every transformer in the schematic.  What is written in the text is true except when Xc and XL are low at the resonant frequency.  1 Ohm, will result in a very high current and a caclatable high voltage.  I also know that when you build a circuit like that that the output impedance of a driver would need to be impedance matched to Xc and XL in parallel as if they were both DC resistances in order to see it reach it's peak output voltage and currents at resonance.  If Xc = 1 ohm, and XL = 1 ohm, the output impedance of the driver circuit must be less than 0.5 ohms.  If I use a plain old signal generator, I'll never see the applied voltage across the circuit, and it's impedance will never rise to the calculated value.  So, at 100 volts, I would need 200 amperes of current.  If Q of the inductor is 300 at that frequency, the impedance will rise to 300 ohms, and the 200 amperes of current will still be present in the parallel tank circuit.  The transformer arrangement amplifies the power.  Pout, in the final stage is equal to Pin * Q of the first inductor/primary winding at the resonant frequency, 8 Q of the second inductor/primary of the second transformer at the same resonant frequency etc for each stage added to the circuit.  At 1 Mhz it's easy to see values of Q that are all in the 100s or 1000s.  As long as you use the power as I had instructed, unloaded secondary plasma bulb, or extract the heat from the transformer cores, you will not interrupt the condition of the circuit's operation in such a manner as to change any of the critical component wise situations and be able to extract the energy as heat.

Thermoelectric Generator Cells  Liquid cooling the core, allows you to generate power.  With the plasma light, you can use solar cells to generate enough electricity to keep the bulb running.  But, you would need a running bulb to calculate how many cells.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2010, 11:25:35 PM by elgersmad »


Offline spinn_MP

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Re: Over Unity Lightbulb
« Reply #27 on: November 09, 2010, 11:02:42 PM »
Build 10 circuits that operate at 10 different frequencies and explain the results.  Oh, damn, you know that would just be a set of equations.  Other than that, I don't want you in my house, and pictures from inside, are just like letting you and everyone else inside.  I'm not taking pictures, and I could care less if you don't know anything about my furniture, carpet, shoe size or any of that.  I don't see how a picture of one transformer at my house, which looks just like another at anyone elses, is any different.  You can buy every single part I use.  If you want to see a doorknob capacitor or powdered iron toroid core just like mine, you can find those online too.  No need at all to waste my time packing a camera around my house just for you.  I won't do that because, I owe you no work of any kind at all.

It all fits.
Elgersmad, don't be silly. You came here with "just" an idea, not with the working (OU) device.
Try again, if you care.

Maybe some magic powder iron cores, or at least correct spice models for your sims.


Offline elgersmad

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Re: Over Unity Lightbulb
« Reply #28 on: November 09, 2010, 11:30:23 PM »
It all fits.
Elgersmad, don't be silly. You came here with "just" an idea, not with the working (OU) device.
Try again, if you care.

Maybe some magic powder iron cores, or at least correct spice models for your sims.

A skeptic doesn't require an education, just a negative opinion without substance.  How are you going to prove me wrong, without building one.  Upon inspection, will every single stage be properly tuned?  If you are so concieted, then I doubt you will be willing to admit being wrong, and sabbotage the circuit you build just to make your lie convincing.  You don't deny that you won't spend money on it.  You explain that by insisting it won't work.  So, you'll never produce anything substantial to prove me wrong.  At the point, I've already admitted to buying parts, and am shopping for them, you are not about to spend two cents in that effect.  I have plenty cores laying around, and none of them are magic.  I still get the results, and perfecting the simulator, only helps find the right value of capacitance the first time.  Electronics Workbench, already produces results that really reflect the real circuit outputs.  The difference is that the capacitor values you'll be finding that work in the simulations will not match the real values you'll wind using to get the same results in a actual circuit.  The results will match.  But, the simple fact that the spice model is not perfectly modeling the actual transformer in operation, makes those values of capcitance wrong.  So, even when you use measured values, you'll find that the final tuning will not be the same.  It doesn't change the schematic, it doesn't change the printed circuit board, it just makes it easier to get the right part values on the first trip to the store.

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Offline spinn_MP

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Re: Over Unity Lightbulb
« Reply #29 on: November 09, 2010, 11:48:04 PM »
A skeptic doesn't require an education, just a negative opinion without substance.  How are you going to prove me wrong, without building one.  Upon inspection, will every single stage be properly tuned?  If you are so concieted, then I doubt you will be willing to admit being wrong, and sabbotage the circuit you build just to make your lie convincing.  You don't deny that you won't spend money on it.  You explain that by insisting it won't work.  So, you'll never produce anything substantial to prove me wrong.  At the point, I've already admitted to buying parts, and am shopping for them, you are not about to spend two cents in that effect.  I have plenty cores laying around, and none of them are magic.  I still get the results, and perfecting the simulator, only helps find the right value of capacitance the first time.  Electronics Workbench, already produces results that really reflect the real circuit outputs.  The difference is that the capacitor values you'll be finding that work in the simulations will not match the real values you'll wind using to get the same results in a actual circuit.  The results will match.  But, the simple fact that the spice model is not perfectly modeling the actual transformer in operation, makes those values of capcitance wrong.  So, even when you use measured values, you'll find that the final tuning will not be the same.  It doesn't change the schematic, it doesn't change the printed circuit board, it just makes it easier to get the right part values on the first trip to the store.

Lol, how typical. The guy is so full of himself that he cannot even see his own faults...

Oh, you're buying parts at the moment? Good luck!


"Elger's mad"?  Lol.

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Re: Over Unity Lightbulb
« Reply #29 on: November 09, 2010, 11:48:04 PM »

 

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