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Author Topic: Over Unity Lightbulb  (Read 32273 times)

Offline elgersmad

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Over Unity Lightbulb
« on: October 31, 2010, 07:01:24 AM »
Well, this makes Doing It Yourself, a major undertaking.  But, you can.

If you have your first year of College Level Electronics under your belt, then you can do this.

You will need One Phelonic toroid core, a Yellow and White Powdered Iron Core, both would be better to have the same mechanical dimensions.  1.5 KW rating.  The phelonic core won't be issue by so much as the toroid.  T400 is a good model for this circuit.  It sucks, but you'd be better off using Litz Wire or 10 AWG for the primary winding to establish the highest Q possible at 1MHz.  Operating frequency isn't so important as each stage being tuned to the same frequency, and how to tune it properly when you do have the equipment.

Then there is the light bulb.  It should be made from a spiraled quartz tube.  Neon is okay, sulfur works, and there are a few other good gases for a really good light bulb. This Quartz Coil is ideal for the Uy core at this link. Large Ferrite Core

This textbox is jumping around so much, that I will have to make a second post.

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Over Unity Lightbulb
« on: October 31, 2010, 07:01:24 AM »

Offline elgersmad

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Re: Over Unity Lightbulb
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2010, 07:10:34 AM »
The glass coil is closed at both ends, and a very fine wire wrapped around it.  It acts like a starter, and the bulb or that filament do not complete any circuit.  It should be left as an open secondary.

Basic Parallel Resonant Tank Circuits are how this circuit produces so much energy.  Even if you use the primary winding of an unloaded transformer, it just functions as an inductor.  Until you load it or place a load on the secondary, there is no energy loss in the tank circuit operating on the primary winding using it as an simple inductor.  The bulb works because, the potential is always there on the secondary to be measured, and that means that the full population of free electrons in that wire that is the secondary windings, they move from one end of the wire to the other, and as long as there is no load, no loss.  That means that when there is a plasma/light from the bulb, the electrons move in the same fashion as with an unloaded secondary.  Now, if you punch in values of the components used in this schematic, which all should be tuned to 1MHz, in Electronics Workbench, then you will see a very high voltage and current produced.  Any other design, or any other conditions and this bulb would not produce so much light that it really would prove to be well over Unity in Operation.

This text box, is too screwed up for me to continue to use.  It jumps from the top line to the line I am writing on, and doesn't stop. Every time I type a character, I wind up looking at it for a split second, then jumping to the top of the page.  I will not contue to use this.

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Offline elgersmad

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Re: Over Unity Lightbulb
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2010, 07:31:04 AM »
This circuit should be driven by a bridge H MOSFET circuit, with a very low output impedance.  The output voltage should be at least 200 volts to drive it.  Be prepared to work over your circuit several times and look into diode protection.  My experience with these circuits tell me that you should never use battery power unless it is a lead acid battery.  Anything else will overheat or explode due to over voltages and currents.  I can only tell you this, any gas should work if the voltage per cm of the length of the bulb is 200 volts.  So, if the bulb's coil length is 100 cm, you'll need to reach a peak to peak voltage of 20KV.  That doesn't mean that it cannot be a step up design.  If you have a one turn primary and it's 10 cm long, then you'll only need 2KV to drive it, and the secondary can still be 100 cm long.

For certain, you do want to be able to use any gas, atmosphere or neon, since the bulb has no electrodes, it just allows you absolute color control.  Doing the math for grow bulbs, all of the major wavelengths of light ideal for growing are actually produced by the elements that the plant is made of in a plasma state.  So, if you have a bell jar, you can burn healthy leaves in a crucible, then use a coil and a quartz tube to produce an inductively coupled plasma to break down all of the molecules into atoms.  Fill the bulb with that gas, and you have the ideal grow light.  Since the bulb has no electrodes, it is okay to have hydrogen, oxygen, carbon, nitrogen and no need to worry, it won't kill your bulb to operate on those gases.  No need for noble gases.

Offline elgersmad

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Re: Over Unity Lightbulb
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2010, 09:54:01 AM »
C4 does not belong in the schematic.  I used it to take a snap shot of the schematic, and keep the error message off of the screen.  When I run the simulations, C4 should be replaced with a 500 Meg Ohm resistor.


Offline elgersmad

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Re: Over Unity Lightbulb
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2010, 09:51:46 PM »
It looks like there's no way to find a simulator that will give you the right answers.  I've spent money on a few, and no longer are the people that test the circuits sitting next to the guys writing the software.  I suggest going back to the books and using an application such as SciLab, to model your circuit first to find the resulting current and voltage values.  Most of these you'll need to produce a inductor model like in spice that doesn't eliminate self inductance because, even thought a transformer is just two coils, it doesn't change the effects of self inductance.  Often, you wind up using V=L(di/dt).  All it takes is one fruitloop who thinks he knows it all to try to encorporate the Laws of Thermodynamics in a circuit where those laws don't apply.
http://www.tpub.com/content/neets/14181/css/14181_13.htm
http://www.scilab.org/
I can't find simulator that works right now, it seems that SPICE F3 and XSpice are screwed up. The textbooks have the right answers.  It's only typical that applying 100 volts at a the resonant frequency of parallel tank crcuit would automatically jump up to 141.4 volts running.  Even the current gows up and for some dimwit to try to make sure that energy in is equal to energy out by modifying the simulators doesn't model reality at all.

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Re: Over Unity Lightbulb
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2010, 09:51:46 PM »
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Offline elgersmad

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Re: Over Unity Lightbulb
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2010, 01:06:50 AM »
In most simulators, if you have just one capacitor and one inductor in parallel, and apply 10 Volts AC at the resonant frequency of the pair for example, 1uF and 1mH gives you a resonant frequency of 5032 Hz, or 5.032 Khz.  So, when you set the AC source voltage to 10 volts for the capacitor and inductor in parallel, the frequency is 5032, your simulator will show you a voltage of 14.14 Volts.  It doesn't convert the source to RMS or anything like that.  When you use a transformer's primary in parallel with a capacitor, running it at the same frequency that the circuit is resonant to, has the same results before the voltage or current is stepped up or down.  In three stages, that should produce a voltage and current that 2.827 times greater than is measured in the primary resonant circuit.  That would be three bobbin wound RF Transformers, with the primary on one bobbin and leg of the transformer and the secondary on the other leg on a seperate bobbin, all with a winding ratio of 1:1.

I've built the circuits, and the rule of thumb when all of the stages are tuned to the same frequency, is simple Pout = Pin * Q * Q * Q.  Q is just the value of inductance divided by the the winding resistance of the coil of each primary.  Typically, you try to use a core that allows you to govern the direction of the majority of current flow.  So, the secondary would have a high winding resistance due to more turns and a longer length of wire, and the next primary would have the same value of inductance by using a core with a higher permeability, less windings, and a higher Q.  The greater current flow will then be through the primary of the next resonant stage.

If you have a core permeability values of 2, 200, and 20,000, using three turns for each primary and 30 for every secondary, will result in a set of transformers that from lowest to highest will all have almost the same inductance on the secondary as the primary of the next.  The output of T1, wound on the core with a permeability of 2 will have the same inductance on the secondary as T2's primary, even though it is still only three turns.  The winding resistance of the secondary of T1 is 10 times greater than the primary of T2, and the majority of current will flow through T2's secondary in resonance, rather than do anything with T1's Primary.

Offline elgersmad

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Re: Over Unity Lightbulb
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2010, 01:28:50 AM »
The Uy type transformer core is ideal for this light bulb because, you can go and buy a fused quartz coil, then go to a neon sign maker, to seal one end, then evacuate it of atmospheric gases and use a gas of your choice.  On the Uy transformer coil, the secondary of the last trasnformer is actually, this glass coil.
http://www.edgemontglass.com/

Turn per turn, there is a hair fine wire that you'll have to place in order to start the bulb. Since, both ends are closed, and the single strand of wire, runs parallel to each turn, turn per turn, the bulb fires up but the circuit and transformer core cannot distinguish that it's not just an open secondary, allowing the primary to act as if there is no load.  The electrons still travel from one end of the bulb to the other, and when the plasma is hot enough, and run at a frequency above 100KHz, it doesn't not extinguish, and remains nearly as conductive as copper wire.  If it is or not is really established by plasma temperature, or power applied.  At that point, the whole circuit responds as if there is no load on the secondary of that transformer, and Q winds up it's highest for all stages and the equations that won't work under any other conditions are all and will all work because T3, not appears to be just an inductor at the end of the line of some tranformer coupled parallel resonant circuits.

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Re: Over Unity Lightbulb
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2010, 01:28:50 AM »
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Offline markdansie

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Re: Over Unity Lightbulb
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2010, 01:35:55 AM »
Just curiois,
have you built and tested this.
I like your original thinking
Mark

Offline elgersmad

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Re: Over Unity Lightbulb
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2010, 08:57:12 AM »
Just curiois,
have you built and tested this.
I like your original thinking
Mark

I've built and tested the entire schematic.  The only exception is that I haven't aquired a quartz tube.  I do have a vacuum pump, bell jar, and list of other things that I've used to build plasma chambers, I have even taken ceramics and actually carved leather hard clay into parts I could afford to have machined.  I highly suggest ceramics for making your own parts if you ever get into high voltages, or vacuum tube tech.  I took on studying plasma physics, and copper and highly conductive metals are considered solid plasmas and a large number of equations don't really change or work differently until you look at temperature.  A plasma will be close to 10,000 degrees C, and as conductive as copper or nearly superconductive.  The difference between superconductors and magnetic fields is that the plasma is so light, it will move before a magnet could ever float on it.

I've found Magntics Designer, and several spice models that will model a real transformer, and fix the results and bring them up to realistic simulations.  But, you cannot trust the simulator until you have a test circuit that is duplicating the results of a spice model.  Yes,  including an unloaded secondary on the final stage.  The only difference is whether the bulb is there or not.  At that point, it really will only respond as a open secondary.  The quartz tube would be closed at both ends, have no electrodes, and no ground connections.  It just floats like a secondary wihout any connections too it.  Just a single hair fine wire that is mechanically parallel to that bulb, possibly even glued too it or lightly wound around the quartz tube just to keep it in position and manage the same number of turns around the magnetic core.

Offline exnihiloest

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Re: Over Unity Lightbulb
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2010, 09:22:09 AM »
I've built and tested the entire schematic.
...

Could you show us photos? I don't well understand how is connected the quartz tube.
And how did you lead measurements to demonstrate OU? Can you present them?


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Re: Over Unity Lightbulb
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2010, 09:22:09 AM »
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Offline elgersmad

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Re: Over Unity Lightbulb
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2010, 10:44:03 AM »
Could you show us photos? I don't well understand how is connected the quartz tube.
And how did you lead measurements to demonstrate OU? Can you present them?

It's not that hard, all you need is a couple of toroids and magnet wire.  Then you grap a coil winding calculator that gives you cores that you can find or buy on the internet.

At that point, you just work with single inductors.  For a transformer, it's important to load the primary.  So, from that point, you are due to make several measurements using a signal generator and an oscilloscope.
mini Ring Core Calculator this software works well to calculate the primary and secondary windings values of inductance on different cores when the secondary is unloaded.  Don't let the name fool you, a T400 Core can handle 1KW but, if you don't want it to heat up, I wouldn't suggest using it for more than 500 Watts.  Heat and core saturation are the enemy.  If I could afford metglas, I would probably be using it at an operating frequency of around 150KHz to 200KHz.  The core I'm trying to order right now maxes out at 150KW at 250KHz.  Most likely, the only way to avoid overheating the core and changing it's permeability is going to be running it at half power.  Those ratings tend to be made where the wire is getting hot, or the core itself.  They'll push them as far as the curie temperature will allow. Then I'll go to the trouble to order some doorknob capcitors, 3 of them, one for each stage, and a vacuum tuning capacitor, all of which are normally used in DXing, or Amature Radio Transmitters that operate around 1KW to be legal.  But, the parts are often rated clear up to what you would use for a 50KW AM Radiostation.  You can't get away with tiny little leads, and ask them to handle more than a single ampere of current.  I'm making a big lightbulb, not another tiny circuit that's just breadboardered at 50 or a 100 watts just to see the readings or compare it to a simulation that's scaled down to parts I have on hand.  Custom winding large coils, a single large coil by hand can take several hours just due to the stiffness of solid wire, and at this point, I'm not looking at simply theory, and have moved up to a bigger better design.

Where do you think I came up with this equation Pout = Pin * Q * Q * Q?

I tested the circuit, and when every stage is tuned to the same frequency, resonance and Q put that much energy in the final stage. The impedance of a parallel tank circuit, is at it's highest at the resonant frequency.  It's just that a typical simulator does not include an accurate transformer model.  The primary should still act just like a plain inductor when the secondary is left unloaded.  But, when you place a capacitor in parallel with the primary, 10 volts supplied at the resonant frequency does not produce 14.14 Volts AC.  If the transformer were a 1 to 10 step up winding, then you should have an output of 141.4 volts.  You can physically measure that.  This is all first year stuff if you've taken college level electronics.  Oscillators and amplifiers are second or third year if it includes biasing.  Then Bridge H MOSFET circuits.  Typically if you have a low value of XL, you need a driver that has an output impedance of half of that value at the resonant frequency just to get the thing to resonate at the peak voltage during operation.  When the impedance goes up do to the resonant state of the circuit it may be over 1K ohms.  But, until then it's not.  Yea, it will still resonate but, it will just suck all of the power out of the driver circuit as if it couldn't reach the supply output voltage or peak out 1.414 times greater.

Circuit simulators are free, SWCad is out there, and there are even tutorials that include how to correct for transformers on the internet.  LTWiki.  They do not deny that the simulators are not producing real world results from transformers, so you can't see the kind of results that would allow you to choose the right diameter or bundle of litz wire.  The simulators are cheaper if you learn to use one.

Offline elgersmad

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Re: Over Unity Lightbulb
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2010, 12:08:16 AM »
ltWiki This article defines how to simulate real transformers using LtSpice IV, which is a free circuit simulator.

I use B2 Spice, and I have to fix my simulator's models to make them work right too.

Transformer Simulation with B2 Spice

They don't write these articles because the simulators work right.  Typically, you're looking at an engineering shortcut, and all that the model transformer does is use a turn ratio to multiply or divide a voltage, and multiply or divide a current.  If the voltage is multiplied, the current is divided by the same factor, and as a result power is always linear.  It doesn't include self inductance of the primary, won't work for a list of power supply circuits, and they do not deny that.  Just read the articles.


Offline poynt99

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Re: Over Unity Lightbulb
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2010, 01:08:48 AM »
I've done extensive simulations with inductors and transformers (linear and non-linear) and I usually have little trouble.

I can see right away two things from your diagram that will make the simulation unrealistic (and troublesome for convergence). What I suggest is:

1) Add some series (real world) resistance with each winding
2) Air-core coupling is never 1. Depending on how loosely the coupling, you may use anywhere from 0.2 to 0.7 or so.

I use PSpice.

.99

Offline elgersmad

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Re: Over Unity Lightbulb
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2010, 05:44:05 AM »
I've done extensive simulations with inductors and transformers (linear and non-linear) and I usually have little trouble.

I can see right away two things from your diagram that will make the simulation unrealistic (and troublesome for convergence). What I suggest is:

1) Add some series (real world) resistance with each winding
2) Air-core coupling is never 1. Depending on how loosely the coupling, you may use anywhere from 0.2 to 0.7 or so.

I use PSpice.

.99

That's good.  But, this is not unrealistic.  At first, it seems that way.  But, if you don't go to the trouble to actually build the circuits you won't know.  First, there are several kinds of transformers, and the geometry of the windings and cores make a big difference.  A 1:1 bifilar is locked to a specific value of inductance on the primary and secondary.  As the load changes on the secondary, it never changes the resonant frequency of a parallel tank circuit built on the primary in construction/breadboarded.  The Q changes and the ring value changes, so it uses more energy with a lower load impedance.  Now, if I use a U core or a C core, and wind the primary on one bobbin, and the secondary on the other at a 1:1 turns ratio, the primary and secondary inductances are no long locked to one value.  Instead of Q changing, the inductance of the primary will change as the load on the secondary changes.  But, to know this you would have to build two seperate transformers made from the same core material, and have the same winding cross section or area.  To be sure that your results are correct the inductance of L1, L2, of T1 should be equal to L1 and L2 of T2 when the secondary is unloaded.

In B2 Spice, that would make the current transformer model more ideal, or modifying the lossy inductor model to replace the inductors used in that model to accomodate for losses properly. The Lossy Core, doesn't include INductance of the Primary, mutual inductance, or the inductance of the secondary, like the current transformer model does.  So, to simulate a real transformer, you would have to combine the lossy inductor with the ideal transformer model and the current transformer model.

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Offline elgersmad

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Re: Over Unity Lightbulb
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2010, 10:39:34 PM »
There is a way to test a transformer and determin that the reason why the models are not working right is associated to how a reflected load actually works through a transformer from the secondary to the primary.  This inductance meter is very helpful in figuring out how the model has to change.
L/C Meter II

What you do, is hook up the primary to the meter, and the secondary to a potentiometer or resistor decade box.  Then just add a 100 ohms of resistance starting from a short circuited secondary and plot a simple graph.  To scale the graph, you measure the inductance of the primary open and then shorted to get the maximum and minimum values of inductance.  The Spice Model would include Pmin, Pmax, Smin and Smax, and if there are more windings, s1, s2, etc.  If you plot the graph you find out that the change in inductance of the primary is linear in respect to the secondary.  So, it's just a straight line.  But, the turn ratio effects it, and comparing 1:2 to 1:10 to 1:100 shows a real difference in change, and when you reverse the direction of driving it and use the secondary as a primary, which is always possible.  So, what you have in the model would be two seperate values of inductance, that change the value of inductance of an inductor in henrys based upon the load on the secondary.  That way the computer can recalculate resonance.  If you wanted a simple self tuning resonant power circuit, you'd base upon an Armstrong Oscillator design to use the core and feed back from a tickler coil to drive the oscillator.  So, when L of the primary changes, Q changes, and f0 floats over a range of frequencies that are load dependant. But, there's nothing you can do with multiple stages because, the center frequency is all over the place for any changing load.  So, we need a model that allows us to change the primary value based upon the secondary's load.

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Re: Over Unity Lightbulb
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2010, 10:39:34 PM »

 

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