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Author Topic: Relative Permittivity of Water  (Read 147629 times)

Offline kadora

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Re: Relative Permittivity of Water
« Reply #45 on: March 10, 2011, 10:36:31 AM »
Hello everybody
I did simple experiment.I immersed two flat electrodes 60/60cm
into bucket full of tap water and then i connected 1V DC to
electrodes .After while i reconnected to electrodes LED diode and
diode lit for 15 sec.
I think this is prove that i had water capacitor.
Now my question.
What would happen if we have -say-ten simple water capacitors and charge them in parallel then discharge caps in serial circle.
Would flow higher discharge current through serial caps?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Relative Permittivity of Water
« Reply #45 on: March 10, 2011, 10:36:31 AM »

Offline Torana

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Re: Relative Permittivity of Water
« Reply #46 on: March 14, 2011, 07:07:18 AM »
(Im guessing the above ^ is directed at everybody..) ?

The dielectric constant / permittivity scale has no units ,its dimensionless , its a Ratio and NOT measured in OHMs .

Dielectric constant of Air or vacuum is 1 = the reference number
Air = 1 , water = 80 , the ratio = 80 : 1

eg ,ONLY ;   If an air cap = 40 pf , and then water is added and measured at = 1.23 uf , the ratio = 1.23 / .000040 =   30750 : 1   ( based on someones actual measurements )

Most water caps will give a reading around 20000 times the air measurement. theres no average.
Its a simple thing to do , compare the 2 measurements taken and divide 1 by the other , take the ratio and enter it into the Capacitance calculator as the Dielectric figure and youll see your meter reading appear.
Which should reflect the accuracy of the C calculator , the C meter and the Ratio in 1 hit.

**This is simply disecting the capacitor formula to get a picture of what IS between the plates.
A constant of 20,000 ?  ..sound reasonable, peculiar,  strange , thru the roof, a recurring oddity...
The difference is OFF the chart  , once this test is done, the text book cant be quoted as 78.54 or 80 .
The formula C = e0 er A / d
e0 is a constant and wont change, A wont change , d wont change, er is the ONLY variable there.

The hyper physics calculator uses METRIC ONLY , uf on the left , pf on the right , tap the word *capacitance* for total.  Enter ratio in ' K ' .       Plate area A  ,  gap d  , your on your own.


CONCENTRIC = http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/capcyl.html

PARALLEL = http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/pplate.html
 


Offline MasterPlaster

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Re: Relative Permittivity of Water
« Reply #47 on: March 14, 2011, 11:33:41 AM »

Offline Torana

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Re: Relative Permittivity of Water
« Reply #48 on: March 15, 2011, 08:25:39 AM »
MP , Yes , Thanx.


The ratio of the constants transfers over to freq and X calculations, using Air =1 as the reference.

Using 40 pf as an example at 10 khz, Xc = 1  / 2 pi f c
40 pf @ 10 khz = 397887.36 ohm
3.2 nf @ 10 khz = 4973.592 ohm
1.23 uf @ 10 khz = 12.939426 ohm

397887.36 / 80 = 4973.592
397887.36 / 30750 = 12.939426

 ( Calculating a compatible L for reso = Xc / 2 pi f ,  because Xc = XL .)

Another example using the ratio and 1 coil.
A; = 40 pf and 10 mH  ,  f = 1 / 2 pi ( sq rt LC )
    f = 251646.06 hz
    Xc = 15811.388 ohm = XL

B; = 3.2 nf and 10 mH
    f = 28134.884 hz
    Xc = 1767.7669 ohm = XL

Af / Bf = 8.9442719
AX / BX = 8.9442719
square root of 80 = 8.9442719                                       ( sq rt 30750 =175.35678 )

Usually the ratio doesnt go over 40 but can still be applied no matter what the number is.
But it just reinforces the HUMUNGUS ratio figure that should be 80 in a perfect world,  IT deserves attention..
Im using other peoples measurements that are beyond my control so that its ALL about numbers ONLY and NOT a personal theory.
 


Offline Torana

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Re: Relative Permittivity of Water
« Reply #49 on: March 26, 2011, 09:31:12 AM »
  Water            Air                Ratio
 80       /         1        =     80 : 1
130 uf   /   .000025     =  5200000 : 1       Actual  test
200 nf   /   .010          =   20000 : 1          "          "
29.93uf  /  .001485      =   20154 : 1          "          "

** e = Cs / Cv  .     Cs = sample    Cv = vacuum  .  Water being the sample specimen.

Theres nothing to panic about for anyone testing their cap / cell , BUT it is clear indication that theres more to it than just 2 SS plates slapped together in water , which is a Debye molecule , polar dm.

A cap dielectric sets up an opposed field 180 degrees to the external field that cancels the field.
good example is hyperphysics .

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/dielec.html

-" Electric flux does not pass equally well through all materials, it cannot pass through conductive metals at all , and is cancelled to various degrees by insulating ( dielectric ) media "
..theres still the debate whether Hydrogen is classed as a metal .  (diff story )

A faraday cage is a polarized hollow conductor with zero internal e.f , but so is a solid wire .
Im still on the hunt for rain water constant and tap water , chlorinated water close enough but keep searching.

http://asiinstr.com/asiadmin/ForceDownload.asp?varFileName=Dialectric Constants.htm&varFileType=DATASHEET

http://orioninstruments.com/html/tools/dielectric.aspx
 
http://www.rfcafe.com/references/electrical/dielectric-constants-strengths.htm

Anyone testing Ice will find R readings too, theres permittivity figures from 1.7 - 115 depending on test freq , Ghz.

If a model was used to represent the water cap it would have parallel C to the max, obviously many times larger than calculated capacitance , and low parallel insulation R .
R being the reciprocal of  conductance G .
The model of a crystal = ESR ,ESL ,C and parallel C
The model of a cap = ESR ,ESL ,C and parallel iR
Sandias water switch model has parallel Cw ,Rw . 



 

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Relative Permittivity of Water
« Reply #49 on: March 26, 2011, 09:31:12 AM »
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Offline Torana

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Re: Relative Permittivity of Water
« Reply #50 on: April 10, 2011, 10:58:09 AM »

I found a doc = ' Defence special weapons agency high voltage breakdown studies " , tagged -declassified- but it dissappeared on me or I was blocked.
It went into 304 SS,different metals  and Rudenko + Tsvetkov HV water tests , it was 130+ pages from dtic.mil

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic  .........................tax dollars at work ,so might aswell use em, they use you!

http://search.nasa.gov/search/search?baynoteOrGSA=baynote&nasaInclude=dielectric+properties&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&client=nasa_production&oe=UTF-8&actionType=searchIndex&numgm=5&site=nasa_collection&proxystylesheet=nasa_production
....................................more tax dollars..

IF Delrin is used on plates , it eliminates 304 ss in any way necessary , IF theres no physical contact with the water ,it can be any non magnetic metal OR any type of water which also eliminates electron extraction ...thru the plates.

If theres no electrons entering , theres no electrons leaving either.

First time Ive seen Stan meyers WFC international news letters , Pat Kellys site.

http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/P7.pdf

11 A# Fall 1996 page 9 top = " Water dielectric value 78.54 OHMS " ? ?

10 # May 1994 page 6 top = " Dielectric value of water 78.54 OHMS " ? ?

Dielectric constant is NOT measured with an OHM-METER .. HOW ? ? ?

IF stan meyer was Ex-military then he would know the value of strategic embedding misinformation ,  its deliberate.

" The truth shall set you free " ......  does that apply to stan ?   

Offline Torana

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Re: Relative Permittivity of Water
« Reply #51 on: April 19, 2011, 06:01:55 AM »
A discussion over water , out side of the free energy type forums...
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/65068-resonant-frequency-water-distilled-how-make-speaker-play-underwater.html

Plasma speaker/ singing arcs = an audio signal (music or fixed freq) goes into a FBT pri and the HV sec arc has an audible out put.     kindve like the keanue reeves movie ,Chain reaction.

*****Legend has it that the inventor of the plasma speaker died from ozone poisoning*****

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_speaker

Good description of FBT , power inductors...
http://www.butlerwinding.com/store.asp?pid=28196&catid=19973
http://www.butlerwinding.com/store.asp?pid=28336

Real good example of clarity of singing arc...
http://wn.com/vladimiro_mazzilli_zvs_flyback_driver?orderby=relevance&upload_time=all_time

Basic circuit of Mazzilli ,1/2 way down..
http://sites.google.com/site/uzzors2k/flybacktransformer

****A Mazzilli circuit is a resonant circuit on steroids and not to be stuffed around with especially hooked to the mains***** .  The pri coil is the only alteration needed.

IF or WHEN water is used - you will see if water is behaving as a Resistance or a Dielectric .
This is a good test for Delrin water caps . DC CANNOT GET THRU A CAPACITOR and any testing should reveal a few things.
A smoothing cap goes from HV pos+ output to earth , some already have them inside , others dont.   (that would be a parallel cap)
Large projection TV FBT seem to be crap in comparison to computer size CRT FBT.
External ,series caps on the out put are DC blocking caps (coupling caps) **optional/experimental.
If used ,the legs can be covered in sheathing from wire off cuts + coated with polyurethane to seal and insulate.
The sec is full of diodes so its the quickest way to get HV DC with out stuffing around with transformers and winding ratios and AC .

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Relative Permittivity of Water
« Reply #51 on: April 19, 2011, 06:01:55 AM »
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Offline Torana

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Re: Relative Permittivity of Water
« Reply #52 on: May 19, 2011, 02:09:36 AM »
I had a look thru my old notes of testing similar to Kadoras set up .
with charged plates continuity is one way and open the other way, the same as if testing a diode fwd and reverse bias.
If it were modeled it would be more like a zener and R , once theres overpotential , current flows and electrolysis begins. ( for continuous current)
The model of Sandias water switch is the same on a large scale, no continuous current= no electrolysis.

Intrinsic properties being permittivity + conductivity, high polarizability and non linear R.
The tests didnt include Capacitance because plate area ,spacing gap and dielectric constant didnt go near calculated capacitance VS measured capacitance.

Testing was done with .1 uf cap in series to block current on the neg side ,with 12 VDC across the lot.
Other testing was done without .1 uf cap + 1 to 2.5 VDC.

**capacitance test is NOT done on a charged cap, they are always discharged ,it can damage a meter.

Heres an example of the Imperial cap formula that Stan meyers "fiddled " in the WFC tech brief EQ21 ,sect 7,page 8  C = .2249 e A / d E   (??)

Actual REAL formula ; C = .2249(KA/d)
http://www.learn-about-electronics.com/the-farad.html     

This an example of Stans elongated molcule, normally called distorted electron orbital path.
http://www.learn-about-electronics.com/capacitance.html


 

Offline Torana

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Re: Relative Permittivity of Water
« Reply #53 on: May 22, 2011, 01:02:19 AM »
H20power..  (oouch)
If you have 78.54 ohms **R** I have no problem with that. (An R decimal indicates a meter reading)  Note that R, X, Z and dielectric constant are 4 diff things.

Stan Meyer repeatedly printed 78.54 ohms as dielectric constant of water, WHY would he print a LIE to the people supporting him on the ride up ? ?
He didnt live long enough to see them on the way down.
No one can stand by that statement ,it cant be written or measured in ohms, its a RATIO it has no UNITS...NONE.

Stans income was from the free energy market ,  who happen to be 180 degrees to the target market =  The MAJORITY/ GENERAL PUBLIC/ GOLDEN GOOSE ...WHERE THE MONEY IS.

Stan is the person who was denying the world WFC tech, HIS only possible Allies could be GOV ,MILITARY,AUTO, NASA or LARGE FINANCIER... ALL of which are already tied together interdependently.

Nowhere have I doubted HIS invention , to do that is to write off Puharich + Horvath,  HORVATH is the only one still alive, No One talks of him.? ? ?(lucky him)

I respect the time and effort youve plugged away at WFC theory, NO ONE can knock you for that.
WHY would I ? ?
I DO NOT agree with anything stan said or wrote, anyone can double check his formulas , its an easy exercise and presents a clearer picture.

I havent read your thread , I just do not have the time , I dont come here often. (Its DATED).
Nothing Ive written is knocking you ,How you interpret that I dont know, IF anything its encouragement.....

***tau = CR ***  ,   Xc and XL are not invited.

** IF you calculate magnification of your coil ,youll be SHOCKED!!

I wouldve thought you would be on =ionizationx.com ,  surely theyre like minded and probably welcome you with open arms.

http://www.ionizationx.com
http://www.ionizationx.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=rj6aj7bp878mv0mdu48n1tvq22&action=register
 

Offline Torana

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Re: Relative Permittivity of Water
« Reply #54 on: May 22, 2011, 01:26:20 AM »
..Reread your post and I think you nailed it in one
"you do not aid humanity in any way shape or form towards being energy independent"

Youve said what Ive been trying to get across, I have Quoted **Stanley A Meyers**, word for word,section and page number, trying to point out that he was misleading.

They are **HIS ** words **NOT MYN**, HE wrote them.

Minde4000 helped out there big time , he opened that can of worms .

The news letters and WFC tech brief are hollow and have no value at all.
We all have the benefit of hindsight of Stanley A Meyers ,  so with Honesty , ask yourself, 

**HOW did he actually aid humanity in any way shape or form towards being energy independent?
..drawings? formulas? scripture? donations ? newsletters ? WFC tech brief ? Patents ?

**HOW would he benefit from sharing his circuit or technique to penniless peasants ? ? ?

NOW ... IF 78.54 ohms is now considered to be Z matching, the formula is now...

R  +  Xl  +  Xc  +  Z   X   C

That makes it worse than before.

I started working on Industrial Switch gear in the 1990s
I first heard of Stan in the 90s
I was actually trying to HELP you .... Best of luck


http://www.learn-about-electronics.com/rc-time-constant.html

http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_1/chpt_16/index.html

http://elkomak.4t.com/catalog.html .. built this one, nice

http://www.bcae1.com

http://www.learnabout-electronics.org DC transients mod 4.3

http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_1/chpt_16/index.html


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Relative Permittivity of Water
« Reply #54 on: May 22, 2011, 01:26:20 AM »
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Offline onthecuttingedge2005

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Offline Torana

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Its not fair for me to say ....."anyone can check his formulas"
So Ive got the disc in front of me , IM going to go thru each formula (yawn) , Ill do them in maybe 3 batches  over the weekend.

IF a formula is correct , itll be labeled so
IF a formula is BOGUS , itll be labeled so and the correct formula next to it

Theres an interesting twist in those formulas which will upset things and the full picture will reveal.

**BOGUS = not genuine , Collins dictionary.


Offline Torana

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Re: Relative Permittivity of Water
« Reply #57 on: May 28, 2011, 06:07:34 AM »
EQ 1; Z series = Xc - Xl    correct but not complete .

At freq below resonance , Xc is larger than Xl , so the remainder is Z = X
At resonance Xc is equal to Xl therefore Xc - Xl = zero , result Z = R , a resistive circuit

EQ 2; Xc = 1 / 2 pi f c     correct (capacitive reactanc)

EQ 3; Xl = 2 pi f L           correct (inductive reactance)

EQ 4; f = 1 / 2 pi sq rt (L C )    correct  ( Resonant freq)

EQ 5; Vt = I Z               correct    (Ohms Law)

EQ 6;  Vl = Vt Xl / Xl - Xc    BOGUS  (Ohms law Vl = I XL)

EQ 7; Vc = Vt Xc / Xl - Xc   BOGUS  (V x ohms / ohms ) ? ?

EQ 8; Z = sq rt R ^2 + ( Xl - Xc )^2   correct ( impedance)

EQ 9; Z = R1 + Z2 + Z3 + RE    BOGUS  (EQ 8 is used) ( RE = dielectric constant ? ? how?)

EQ 10; E = I R                     correct  (ohms law for DC )

EQ 11; P = I E    watts                 correct  ( POWER basic form )

EQ 12; A = F / M                  correct-ish  (Newtons 2nd law of motion F = ma , newtons.kg.metre)

EQ 13; F = q q1 / R^2           correct  (coulomb force)
(mutual force F = Q1 Q2 /d^2  ,F = Q1 Q2 / e d^2 ,   separated by a dielectric)  Q = es units ,d = cm ,e = permittivity

EQ 14; V = q / e R               BOGUS  (this is semi EQ 21 , denominator is distance and dielectric)

EQ 15;  R s= Vin - V led / I led  intensity ?  correct-ish (This is a series resistor selection formula)

EQ 16;  Pwatts = Vcc It    parallel array   correct (without parallel R or G calculation)
manufacturer lists power rate and freq IF its a flashing LED

EQ 17; Le = sq rt Ion^2  T1 / T1 + T2    BOGUS  ( liminous intensity = candela )

****SECTION 3 PAGE 8 =  REPEAT EQ 1 to EQ 17  =  FILLING ****




     

Offline Torana

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Re: Relative Permittivity of Water
« Reply #58 on: May 28, 2011, 06:42:25 AM »

EQ 18;  Ein = Md C^2           correct I GUESS ,Einstein-ish 

http://www.worsleyschool.net/science/files/emc2/emc2.html

EQ 31; E = hv                    correct-ish ,  h= 6.547 x 10 -27 erg , BOGUS
          E = hv = hc / lambda ,  h = 6.626 x 10 -34 J.s , 6.62 x 10 -27 erg sec , v = frequency of em radiation

EQ 32: hv / c    momentum of photon , correct (magnitude of momentum hv / c = h / lambda )
 c = quantum of em energy ?   (c = light speed in metres )

FIG  5 - 11  Optical photon , planck = 6.547 x 10 - 27 erg sec   BOGUS

SECTION 7 page 4 
Resonant charging chokes (614/615) 36 AWG =.006  BOGUS

SECTION 7 page 5
Primary coil (622)  22 AWG = .028  BOGUS

Secondary pick up coil (623) 35 AWG = .007  BOGUS

36 AWG = .00500
35 AWG = .00561
22 AWG = .02534

http://www.bulkwire.com/wiregauge.asp

LIKE IT MATTERS . .... to be continued.


Offline Torana

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Re: Relative Permittivity of Water
« Reply #59 on: May 28, 2011, 11:16:30 PM »

EQ 19; wa = L I^2 / Z             BOGUS    ( stored energy = L I^2 / 2 OR .5 LI^2)

EQ 20; L = .8(NA)^2 /6a+9b+10c    correct  (this is an AIR CORE COIL) Wheelers formula

http://home.earthlink.net/~jimlux/hv/wheeler.htm

EQ 21; C = .2249 eA /c Eo       BOGUS   "permittivity (Eo) of the dielectric property of water"=crap
"Eo =free space permittivity of water" more crap.
(imperial C = .2249 KA / d , OR metric C =e er A/ d ,written as C = KA/d , permittivity of free space =8.854 x 10 -12, for conversion , the inch = 25.4 mm , so 8.854 x 25.4 = 224.9  , pico farad being 1.0 x 10-12 ,the same as the free space figure .)

EQ 22; area (A) = h/2 (a + b ) Tapered Resonant Cavity    correct  ( Huber / Smalian formula for parabolic Frustum)

http://mathforum.org/dr.math/faq/formulas/faq.cone.html

EQ 23; Circumference Surface point (E9) = pi D         correct (A CIRCLE = 2 pi radius )

EQ 24;  Z = Xl - Xc                              correct    "in terms of component reactance, inductors (L11L2) should ALWAYS be larger than capacitor"   
 (for Xl to be larger means freq is above the resonant freq ,therefore Z = X for a NON RESONANT CIRCUIT , at resonance Xl = Xc)

SECTION 7 page 10  REPEAT EQ 9  BOGUS ... and Filling .
           

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Relative Permittivity of Water
« Reply #59 on: May 28, 2011, 11:16:30 PM »

 

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