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Author Topic: Relative Permittivity of Water  (Read 152881 times)

Offline minde4000

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Re: Relative Permittivity of Water
« Reply #30 on: January 29, 2011, 02:57:15 AM »
So what the hell... since when permittivity is ohmic resistance?

Water permitivity is not the same as water ohmic resistance...

Minde




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Re: Relative Permittivity of Water
« Reply #30 on: January 29, 2011, 02:57:15 AM »

Offline Torana

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Re: Relative Permittivity of Water
« Reply #31 on: January 31, 2011, 09:10:06 AM »
......CORRECT.

All R measurements are provided by the builders themselves using their own meters, on their own time not myn , Im just
not that keen.
Anyone testing their own "water cap" should pay more attention to their R reading of the conductive liquid between the plates.
Measure a DC V supply and then  measure current thru the "water cap" , if current passes thru it , then its not a capacitor and theres no dielectric.
Gas formation is directly related to R and DC.
What kindve cap is that... liquid Rheostat , water Resistor , Solion ...

Energy dissipation occurs only in the resistive part of a circuit , since inductors and caps merely store and release energy.

R doesnt go away. R consumes power , X does not.

Most people dont have access to a Megger meter , its an insulation tester that sends a HV bolt thru a circuit, if theres leakage or short to earth or between phases the meter lets you know.

"Water cap" doesnt pass that test ,its over kill but still suitable test.

Meyers presentation is based on a parallel LC circuit, its an Antiresonant circuit with a rejection frequency f = 1 / 2 pi (sq rt LC ) , its a filter , radio ,electronics + aerial traps use them.
Series LC has a resonance freq f = 1 / 2 pi (sq rt LC ) , its a filter , radio ,electronics + industrial switchboards use them.

The Horvath patent / presentation has a non functional circuit to throw people off , Meyers and Puharich patents are no different

http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/PatE12.pdf

The permittivity of PURE WATER is 80.. all other forms of water are not used as a dielectric because they are poor insulators and so they are not included on the permittivity scale.

Poor insulator = good conductor

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline Torana

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Re: Relative Permittivity of Water
« Reply #32 on: January 31, 2011, 11:36:27 PM »
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/capcyl.html

Alex Petty 2010
OD=.75"  iD=.667 =(19.05mm, 16.9418mm)  radius =.0084709 METRE
OD=.5"    iD=.42" =(12.7mm,   10.668mm)          r =.00635     M
Length= .250 M
gap=  .0021209 M
1 dry =48pf       78.54 wet =3.79nf      80 wet =3.86nf

JL Naudin 2008
OD= 33mm   iD= 30mm         r=.015 M
OD= 25mm   iD= x               r=.0125 M
Length= .250 M
gap= .0025
1 dry =76pf       78.54 wet= 5.99nf    80 wet =6.1nf

Dave Lawton 2006
OD= 1"    iD=7/8"   =(25.4mm,  22.225mm)     r= .0111125 M
OD=3/4"  iD= x      =(19.05mm, x   )              r= .009525 M
Length =5"           =127mm
gap= 1/16"           =.0015875 M
1 dry  =45.8pf      78.54 wet =3.599nf    80 wet =3.666

Scott Crampton   ..
OD= .75"   iD=.5944"     =(19.05mm,  15.1mm)     r=.00755 M
OD= .5"    iD= x            =12.7mm                      r=.00635 M
Length= .450 M
gap= .0012 M
1 dry  =144pf    78.54  wet= 11.35nf    80 wet= 11.57nf

PARALLEL PLATES
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/pplate.html

Stan Meyers 1990

OD= .5", Length =5"  =.0127 M ,  .127 M .  .0127 x .127 x pi = .0050670748 M  AREA
OD= .75" ,Length =4"  =..01905 M ,  .1016 M
       .01905 - .003175 = .015875 M ,  (minus wall thickness)
       .015875 x .1016 x pi = .0050670748 M  AREA 
gap = 1/16"  = .0015875 M
C = ?  ..at least have a GO..

All calculations are based on the measurements provided by Petty, Naudin, Lawton ,Crampton, Meyers and Hyperphysics calculator.
The coax formula is for 2 conductors of the same length only.
Ravi Raju and others used unequal or random length.
Stans pipes have equal surface areas and can only be calculated using parallel plate formula not coax.
Once C is calculated it can be compared to Actual meter measurements to try and support the theory.
IF the C formula and meter dont match up or anywhere near  , ...either the formula is wrong or the meters wrong or the calculators wrong or theres human error or.. the permittivity of the "Dielectric" is shot.
These calculations are ONLY as accurate as the permitttivity of the Dielectric, IF that is false then the entire concept is false.





Offline Torana

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Re: Relative Permittivity of Water
« Reply #33 on: February 21, 2011, 09:01:32 AM »
Stans capacitor: ONLY as accurrate as the permittivity ......... (pure water )
1 = 28pf  , 78.54 = 2.219nf ,  80 = 2.26nf ,  80.37 = 2.27nf  , 81 = 2.28nf   .

Inorganic chemistry :   decomposition potential of water =  1.229 v DC
EE / Physics   : Dielectric breakdown voltage of Pure water = 30MV per metre

Youtube has a mountain of examples showing decomposition of water , none of break down.

The 20/20 test = if you see bubbles of gas , then it is decomposition and it is NOT a capacitor or any example of dielectric breakdown.
 
A capacitor is an open circuit to steady current ,DC or a short to High frequency.
Xc = 1  / ( 2 pi f c )  ohms  , the higher the freq ,the less the opposition .

It is a personal choice for anyone to call or name their construction a "water capacitor " but there is very little evidence to fall back on , to support it .

Pure water is the only option going  , natural forms of water are not dielectrics.
Pure water is not naturally occurring , its a manufactured , processed product with parameters and grades and also trade marked .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purified_water   =  Milli Q by Millipore corporation

ANYONE building a "water cap" has the option of calculating the predicted capacitance and then a digital capacitance measurement.
 Theres the old saying  "measure twice and cut once "
If theres 2 measurements .... which one ?   either , neither , double check or abandon  .

NO permittivity =   no dielectric  =  no capacitance   =  no reactance  .

Quote..." no dielectric breakdown ..."  suggests  no dielectric  =  no capacitor .

gas production indicates conduction ,  = resistance

poor insulator = good conductor .

pos electrode , neg electrode , Electrodes  , suggest an electrolytic cell NOT a capacitor .
Aaron Murakami obviously abandoned and deleted any info relating to his "water cap" project .
He was using tap water which straight away narrows it down to pulsed electrolysis / decomposition.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floating_water_bridge    HV bonding , deionised water                                                                                                                                                                                                                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_thread_experiment                                                                                                                                                                                                http://www.niell.org/exploding.html    Power dissipation thru water as a LOAD resistor                                                                                                                                                                                                                               http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/quantum/sodium.html    ionic solution                                                                                                                                                                                                                          http://www.jossresearch.org/tjiirrs/015c.html    Water capacitor using pure water                                                                                                                   






Offline minde4000

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Re: Relative Permittivity of Water
« Reply #34 on: February 21, 2011, 07:22:46 PM »
@Torana

Quite a few statements of yours I don't agree upon.

First: DIELECTRIC is not the same as INSULATOR. Dont get confused.

Water is quite a strong dielectric ~78 value BUT tap water is poor ohmic insulator.
Polyetylene is poor dielectric 2-6 value BUT strong ohmic insulator.

Only by applying ohmic insulator on water capacitor tube surfaces and preventing amp flow water capacitive properties will jump out to daylight because of such a high dielectric value. All you need to do is isolate opposite plates. Tap water is poor ohmic insulator due to all of contaminates in it - however distilled water is quite good ohmic insulator because of missing contaminates.

"...NO permittivity =   no dielectric  =  no capacitance   =  no reactance" = crap ;)

Minde

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Relative Permittivity of Water
« Reply #34 on: February 21, 2011, 07:22:46 PM »
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Offline Torana

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Re: Relative Permittivity of Water
« Reply #35 on: February 23, 2011, 09:59:34 AM »

ANY / ALL  Dictionaries ,  even microsoft works.
Dielectric =" not able to conduct direct electric current,and therefore useful as an insulator."

INSULATOR                                                               DIELECTRIC                   CONSTANT   
HV glass transmision line insulator                                 glass leyden jar                5 - 10
HV glazed ceramic/ porcelain trans-line insulator              ceramic cap                    5 - 7
mica stand offs / dividers                                            mica cap                         4.5-7
oil impregnated paper insulated cable                             paper cap                       2 - 2.6
AIR                                                                          Air cap                           1.0

Naudin and Aaron murakami used coated pipes.  The water is not the dielectric ,the water is now an isolated Resistance  , internal resistance.     murakami abandoned his .
Ive just had a look at Naudins video , never seen it before , dated june 2008.
.."high flow of gas "  ??  looks alot like decomposition ,only alot less than usual.
Naudin used distilled water and the surface is covered in brown sludge , a clear indication of a mini joe cell sludge fest all over again , does not look good .

A cell and a capacitor are 180 degrees opposite .
Dielectric breakdown , IF that is the aim , happens beyond the dielectric strength and in a HURRY.

**Relative permittivity of the insulator  coating ... = a dielectric = capacitive component of a capacitor = Xc ....,when frequency is applied or ... IF DC applied = open circuit .

The INVERSE is ;  No permittivity = NO dielectric = No capacitor = No Xc  ....

Non Conductor ,   Inverse = Conductor
Insulator  ,          Inverse = Conductor
Dielectric ,          Inverse = Conductor 
       

Offline minde4000

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Re: Relative Permittivity of Water
« Reply #36 on: February 23, 2011, 04:38:04 PM »
Whatever you say man... I see no point to argue with you here.
Appereantly many of your "dictionaries" are wrong. Because dielectric is NOT the same as ohmic insulator.. altho all insulators have dielectric values but thats not the same as ohmic value.
It is the way it is and no dictionaries can change that.
I just wish you kept your personal theories to yourself.. so many others would not be misguided by reading your posts..

Minde

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Relative Permittivity of Water
« Reply #36 on: February 23, 2011, 04:38:04 PM »
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Offline Torana

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Re: Relative Permittivity of Water
« Reply #37 on: February 25, 2011, 08:34:53 AM »

I havent put any personal theories forward ,everything is text book.
I refer to ANY/ALL dictionaries because of easy access , I cant expect people to read Electrical ,Electronics dictionaries ,glossaries + books because I know people by choice ..WONT.

Relative permittivity ,dielectric constant are not measured in OHMS , they never have been and I certainly have never said that.

Naudin ,Alex Petty + Steve provided R measurements ,  NOT ME.  Good for them , IM NOT knocking them - Why would I .

No dictionary states that dielectric constant is resistance.
Dielectric constant is fundamental to capacitor design and calculation.

Data sheets for caps , cable , semiconductors state the insulation R , 10,000 M ohm etc .material.

There is how ever only 1 person who stated the Dielectric constant is measured in OHMS....

I'll start next post with the numbers......... in a sec....

Offline Torana

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Re: Relative Permittivity of Water
« Reply #38 on: February 25, 2011, 09:05:27 AM »
WFC tech brief Super F, The birth of new technology .

ALL data supplied by Stanley A Meyers 1995.  ****NOT ME****

*memo WFC420 =Natural water ( dielectric constant 78.54 @25c )      section/page  [ 1-1 ]
 
Fig 1 - 1 = V . I . C ( A-A ) ,  Natural water  ( dielectric liquid )                        [ 1-13 ]

*memo WEC422 DA = The dielectric properties (insulator to the flow of amps) of Natural water   (68) of fig (3-28) as to fig (3-26)(dielectric constant of water being 78.54@20c in 1-atm)[3-8]

-The established reso freq is most generally in the audio range from 1khz up to and beyond 10khz;and is dependent upon the amount of contaminates in Natural water                   [3-16]

*memo WFC426= The established Dielectric value of water (85) being78.54 OHMS          [7-3]
 
-rain water (850) being an liquid insulator that restricts the flow of amps.....a resistive liquid
(having an OHMIC value of 78.54 OHMS.)                                                               [7-4]
 
 -The dielectric property of water (being 78.54 OHMS @ 25c )                                   [7-8]
 
 -The dielectric property of water and its resistive value is typically (78.54 Q )             [7-11]

Fig 7-1 V.I.C Impedance network =Natural water ,dielectric liquid resistance.
Fig 7-4  Electrical charging effect = Dielectric liquid of water (85)  ????
Fig 7-15  Dielectric value of water 78.54 OHMS

*memo WEC 427  Water bath (85) is a Dielectric liquid (typically 78.54 OHMS )

*memo WFC 429  Fig 10-1  V.I.C ,water Dielectric value 78.54 OHMS   
PAY ATTENTION TO THE OHMS        ...next post.... 

Offline Torana

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Re: Relative Permittivity of Water
« Reply #39 on: February 25, 2011, 09:14:41 AM »

Dielectric constant is fundamental and essential for ALL capacitor design and calculation .

IF ...the fundamental basis of Stan Meyers PR info is false then he alone has been misleading and misguiding people and his entire info is questionable.

This could have a wide effect on all Stan Meyer devotees and replications.


 

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Re: Relative Permittivity of Water
« Reply #39 on: February 25, 2011, 09:14:41 AM »
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Offline Torana

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Re: Relative Permittivity of Water
« Reply #40 on: February 25, 2011, 09:25:10 AM »

Personally I think Minde is absolutely Right.

1.  Since when is permittivity ohmic resistance ?

2.  Water permittivity is not the same as ohmic Resistance .

*** Since Stan Meyer said  " The Dielectric property of water being 78.54 OHMS @ 25 c  ."

*** ...."a resistive liquid ( having an OHMIC value of 78.54 OHMS )."

Surely I am not the only person who spotted this, its been there for 15 YEARS !!!

Everyone is going to rush off to check their stash of Stan info,  good on ya.

Offline Torana

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Re: Relative Permittivity of Water
« Reply #41 on: February 26, 2011, 09:10:20 PM »
#4,936,961 Patent 1990

Stan Meyer refers to and quotes

1 ;Handbook of chem + physics ,68th ed ,CRC prss 1987-88 sect E-50 H2O  =dielectric constant

2 ;SAMS Modern dictionary of electronics, Rudolf Garff ,1984 Howard W. Sams +co pg859
   =charging choke

Theres no excuse to get it wrong when anyone can get it right.
NO dictionary or book is going to state dielectric constant as 78.54 OHMS.

All electrical and electronics dictionaries are similar enough in their content and descriptions
A charging choke is a series component / circuit.

If its a recurring TYPO then he  had 3 years to correct it =1995 to 98 . That leaves the possibility that the tech Brief is full of typos and IF thats the case then the Brief is an unreliable source.

I AM NOT KNOCKING STAN MEYER OR RESEARCHERS ,ITS A PERSONAL CHOICE WHAT PEOPLE BELIEVE AND NONE OF MY BUSSINES OR INTEREST .

     


Offline Torana

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Re: Relative Permittivity of Water
« Reply #42 on: March 04, 2011, 09:01:18 AM »
WFC tech brief -1995 Stanley A Meyers.

(this is only SOME of the formulas that need replacement) (theres more..)

eq1; Zseries= Xc-Xl                          section -page [1-2]
eq5; Vt =IZ      OLUNS law                                    [1-2]     
eq6; VL= Vt Xl / Xl-Xc                                          [1-3]
eq7  Vc= Vt Xc/ Xl-Xc                                         

"restrict DC current flow beyond XL"                        [1-4]

eq9; Z=R1 + Z2 + Z3 + Re   "Total Resistance " ?       [1-4]
   " Re = dielectric constant of natural water "  ...a RESISTANCE ?

memo WFC 421 Spark ignition tube  "BUM rate "              [2-1]
                      gas ignition process  "BUM rate "  ? ? ? (Tariff )

Delrin material (72) is not factored into eq8 or eq9 ,But dielectric constant ...IS ?  ?  [3-11]

FIG 3-30 , 3-33 , 4-6 , = K shell has 6 electrons  .  Fig 5-12 has 8 electrons   ?      [3- 42]

eq 19  wa = LI sq / Z                          [7-6]
eq 21   C= .2249 e A / d E                    [7-8]
eq 9 Total  V I C "circuit resistance " to DC current flow . Z =R1 + Z2 + Z3 + Re         [7-10] 
       A choke coil of 11.6 K ohm ?  Re = water 78.54 Q ....a resistance ?

eq 24 Z = Xl - Xc  "in terms of component reactance , inductors (L11L2) should ALWAYS be larger than cap (ER) of fig 7-2 .......... OPPOSITE OF eq 1  ?                                                  (7-10)

The dielectric Value of water 78.54 inhibits amp leakage INTO the water bath ?  ?         [11-4]

**The tech brief is a bench mark for misinfo + misguidance ,so quoting it- is just as dodgy.
Again its a personal choice or belief if people want to follow it.

Offline kadora

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Re: Relative Permittivity of Water
« Reply #43 on: March 06, 2011, 05:40:02 PM »
Hello everybody
I did simple experiment.I immersed two flat electrodes 60/60cm
into bucket full of tap water and then i connected 1V DC to
electrodes .After while i reconnected to electrodes LED diode and
diode lit for 15 sec.
I think this is prove that i had water capacitor.
Now my question.
What would happen if we have -say-ten simple water capacitors and charge them in parallel then by an switch to connect them to serial
circle.Would flow higher current through serial caps?



Offline Torana

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Re: Relative Permittivity of Water
« Reply #44 on: March 07, 2011, 08:08:51 AM »

Ive done this experiment before and got the same results .
*Rain water , 100mm plates , 3mm spacing , LED = 5 - 10 secs.
I can confirm what your saying and what youve done , again it is a personal choice for anyone to call it a capacitor .

If diodes and LEDs are tested for capacitance you will get a reading.  (or any semiconductor)
LED = 12 - 17 pf
IN4007 = 27 pf
UF4007 = 42 pf

Are they capacitors ? 
Forward bias ,they conduct and reverse bias theyre an open circuit , just like a capacitor to DC.
Further investigation is up to you or anyone who does the same test , its easy and straight forward. 

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Relative Permittivity of Water
« Reply #44 on: March 07, 2011, 08:08:51 AM »

 

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