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Author Topic: Relative Permittivity of Water  (Read 163048 times)

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Relative Permittivity of Water
« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2010, 02:38:05 AM »
Well, OK, you make some pretty good points but I still don't think you are completely correct. I've just been looking at specs of many resistivity meters used for water testing, and even the cheap ones for consumer use go into the megOhms/cm range.

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Re: Relative Permittivity of Water
« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2010, 02:38:05 AM »

Offline Torana

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Re: Relative Permittivity of Water
« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2010, 10:34:07 AM »
Im shocked no ones hauled me over for the balls up on the decimal. The devils in the details people
-Haste- on my part, sorry.
Air            =3MV metre  =3kv per mm
Pure water =30MV metre =30kv per mm
water ??    =24MV metre =24kv per mm
24 - 30kv is acheivable but then if water is converted to gas state (white water),permittivity drops
Air =1.00059   Hydrogen =1  oxygen =1
so again the permittivity of 80 goes out the window. So whats the break down voltage now?
3 kv per mm?
Why publish dielectric strength 24-30MV metre if water is capable of changing state?

Resistivity/conductivity meters use Alternating Voltage at 2 khz or so to avoid the plates polarising the water molecules. why??
What happens when water polarises? what happens when DC is across water?
A simple test using DC across water and measuring current with a regular old multimeter will indicate Resistance of a sample of water. R = V / I

As for inventors using a water cap , are they using pure water?   
If they claim tap or sea water , to classify as a cap it HAS to be non conductive.
Fundamental characteristic of a cap = DC can not get thru

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Offline exnihiloest

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Re: Relative Permittivity of Water
« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2010, 02:45:17 PM »
...
24 - 30kv is acheivable but then if water is converted to gas state (white water),permittivity drops

"Water" is the layman term for H2O under liquid state so water permittivity is not the same as water vapor permittivity which is surely near 1 due to a very low density of matter.

Quote
...
Resistivity/conductivity meters use Alternating Voltage at 2 khz or so to avoid the plates polarising the water molecules. why??
What happens when water polarises? what happens when DC is across water?
...

A dielectric polarization consists in shifting the electronic cloud around the atom nucleus, along the electric field. With normal conditions and materials this effect is linear. A DC polarization doesn't change the AC polarization thus the permittivity is the same, at least at low frequencies.
The reason for using AC instead of DC is the same as for measuring a capacity (rather simpler with AC than DC) and to avoid chemical reactions of the remaining ions with the electrodes (oxydo-reduction).

Quote
A simple test using DC across water and measuring current with a regular old multimeter will indicate Resistance of a sample of water. R = V / I

You forget the redox potentials, depending on the density and type of ions. Even in pure water, there are some H3O+ and OH- ions.
"Water" connected with electrodes is not a pure resistance. U=R*I doesn't apply.

What is your goal? To prove that scientists do not measure correctly water permittivity, by proposing us incorrect methods using not purified water?



Offline Torana

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Re: Relative Permittivity of Water
« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2010, 06:58:00 AM »
Im not trying to prove anyone wrong

fritznien    =P W is non conductive
t koala     =P W has resistivity
exnihiloest= P W is not irrelevant
fritznien   =C meter on air cap...C should go up 80 times    ( it should but it doesnt)
exnihiloest=..purify water,measure permittivity..you can PRODUCE water with meg ohm of R
t koala     =leyden jars  ( the dielectric?)

I agree with all the reply posts , Im questioning relative permittivity of pure water VS every other type of water that goes UNLISTED on the scale.
A leyden jar is an excellent example of a glass dielectric separating 2 water conductors, its 180 degrees opposite to a theoretical water cap which is theoretically pure water between 2 conductors.
Leyden jar is an example of water used in diametrically opposed function to the "cap".
clearly the permittivity scale is isolated to pure water and pure water ONLY.
The more you delve into it,you start to discredit stan meyer or anyone who claims to use tap or sea water as a component,   whats the dielectric value???

I encourage anyone to do a DC test on natural water, if it conducts ,can that conductive liquid be used as a nonconductor between 2 plates and present an open circuit to DC???
...the same DC that was used to prove that it was conductive in the first place..

Simple fact is -A capacitor is an open circuit to DC, test one , anyone can do it.
A capacitor is a high pass filter , it blocks DC,thats why we use them.
Caps are measured in OHMS capacitive reactance not resistance.

Conductance is reciprocal of Resistance
Conductivity / resistivity is shifting into another area of testing


Offline CompuTutor

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Re: Relative Permittivity of Water
« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2010, 07:21:41 AM »
I hate to whack this with the "Simple Stick",
but isn't the real answer so evasive
as to be beyond all confirmability ?

It is the mixed question aspect of all this:
"How long is a piece of string ?"

The data required to answer this
just seems to be missing initially
from the question itself to me...

Raw H2O in a vacuum enviroment,
after a period of natural dissociation
to that vacumm enviroment,
will settle to be a very low value.

But tap water, nature's brook water, nature's pond water, laboratory purified water all lend a span of measurement so wide that the better question might be...why do you want to know ?

Purified water becomes useless as reference once exposed to our atmosphere anyway.

Water in It's own right has a form of memory to each and every substance it has ever come in contact with that to this day no one has yet to completely explain to satisfaction as it is.

So what inert material will this water under vacuum be withheld in for this test ?

If it is a form of plastic, there will be ions to contend with, a glass static charge carriers, etc.

Short of wandering out of our atmosphere into space and popping a couple of probes made of some material that water is not imprinted with to make this measurment, I cannot see this being successfully measured to any degree that could be held as a standard.

Then there is the ubber-amazing non-linear aspect of how water acts when it is used as the dielectric of a water capacitor.

This is awsome, and has caused life-long dedication to the study of this by many...

Sorry for pissin' on the Cherios...

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Re: Relative Permittivity of Water
« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2010, 07:21:41 AM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Relative Permittivity of Water
« Reply #20 on: October 23, 2010, 02:39:34 AM »
Well, Torana seems to think that real, not ultrapure, water, or any substance with some conductivity, can't be used as a capacitor dielectric. Of course "that all depends". It all depends on the voltage and current available, as well as the characteristics of the container. I've done quite a bit of laboratory work discharging high-voltage arcs into water-filled chambers, and it's easy to see the ionization and electrolytic conduction phase of the discharge process on the scope traces.
But now I'm curious too. I'd like to see some real data, comparing, say, the polar liquid under question (Water) with a similar non-polar one (Carbon Tetrachloride, say) in a capacitor cell. I blew out my personal capacitance meter the other day, but maybe I can borrow one from somewhere.

Offline Torana

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Re: Relative Permittivity of Water
« Reply #21 on: October 23, 2010, 03:11:13 AM »
Simple fact is a cap function is to block DC.     DC can not get thru the DIELECTRIC / INSULATOR.
How often have you read of an invention that uses tap or sea water in a cap?
Simple test using DC across water will reveal if its conductive.
If its conductive , can it be used as a dielectric??
The answer is obvious....
Thru simple elimination the 'invention' did not use tap or sea water as a component of a capacitor.

No where in the thread have I mentioned my own testing , Its open for anyone to test for themselves ,for their own benefit and confirmation.

Permittivity scale is for pure water and pure water ONLY, . ..80 .
Anyone considering construction of a "capacitor" needs to be aware that all other types of water are NOT included on the scale.
The formula , C = er x e0 x A / d ,applies to a non conductor NOT a conductive liquid. It cant.
As soon as there is DC conduction theres an electrochemical process , now your talking free electrons and ions.
Permittivity goes in the chapter on electrostatics while electrochemistry is in the inorganic chemistry chapter , same book , different chapters.  EIT reference manual .
HV water bridge is a good example of water conduction and experiment,try that one too.
Try testing over the counter capacitors , known functional capacitors.

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Re: Relative Permittivity of Water
« Reply #21 on: October 23, 2010, 03:11:13 AM »
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Offline fritznien

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Re: Relative Permittivity of Water
« Reply #22 on: October 23, 2010, 04:51:29 AM »
OK you almost have it. "normal" water is complex stuff, it might help to think of it as a composite material.
pure water makes a great dielectric,dirty water makes a leaky dielectric.
think of it as a cap and nonlinear resister in parallel.
the only water caps i know of are used in large high voltage supplies for atom smashers.
ultra pure water with constant de-ionization, cheap to build and no toxic chemicals when they fail.
as for the invention of course it didn't work,what do you expect its been 20 years with no progress, no results.
mother nature is a blabbermouth all you have to do is ask the right question.
fritznien

Offline Torana

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Re: Relative Permittivity of Water
« Reply #23 on: October 23, 2010, 11:23:05 AM »
1-the 'invention ' hasnt worked for 20yrs , does that mean weve shot down stan meyer?
2-does that eliminate tap water and sea water as a non conductor/insulator/dielectric ?
1 and 2 are the same thing , so now weve knocked out 2 types of water so far.
Dirty water makes a great conductor and produces Hydrogen when DC is applied.
Try testing distilled water , we might aswell knock that out too.
Two SS plates 1/16 inch apart and use 12v DC
1-use a continuity tester between plates
2-use an LED test light in series with 12v DC .

The model of a cap is equivalent series R , equivalent series L ,and Capacitance in parallel with insulation R .  ( ESR, ESL , C and iR )
DC pretty much puches a hole thru insulation R in this case,  current measurement gives
 R = V / I ,Ohms law

HV pure water caps fail? I would assume the water dielectric is self repairing, what does it break down into?
Now we're getting to breakdown voltage , current is the result of failure.
According to the rules, electric current flows thru water by riding on the ions IN the water...?
Are they using circuit breakers ? why not go in series for higher V rating.
Absolute pure water has to be enclosed in a sterile environment or it would be contaminated.
If the dielectric is broken down ,does the enclosed cap have compensation for expansion of H2O,
like a Bucholtz valve? If it self repairs would that then create a vacuum ?

None of these ?? are directed at you or any individual ,it just raises even more questions.

 

Offline Torana

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Re: Relative Permittivity of Water
« Reply #24 on: October 25, 2010, 01:28:49 AM »
HV Van De Graaff generator =  electrostatic machine = DC output.
In this case the function of the cap is to BLOCK DC and store charge ,Q=CV,   Uc = .5 C V^2
Only pure water can be used in the caps, all other types of water are conductive and have no dielectric value at all.
Permittivity rating of 80 applies to pure water and pure water ONLY.
Thru simple testing of conductance shows tap water fails as a dielectric of any kind.
Test an electrolytic cap with continuity for 10 secs, a fully charged cap is an open circuit.
DATA;
Stans original SS "water capacitor" dimensions ;
5" x 1/2" pipe  plus   4" x 3/4" pipe with 1/16" wall thickness.
1; 5"=127mm,    1/2" =12.7mm dia
  perimeter = 2 x pi x radius = pi x 12.7 = 39.898227mm
  127 x 39.898227 = 5067.0748 AREA.
2; 4"=101.6mm,    3/4"=19.05mm  minus  3.175mm =15.875mm dia
  perimeter = 2 x pi x radius = pi x 15.875 = 49.872783mm
  101.6 x 49.872783 = 5067.0748 AREA.
3; gap between plates =1/16" = 1.875mm { d }  , between 2 equal size plates .

4; C = er x e0 x A / d  = theoretically  2.27 nf   (dreaming)

Its a personal choice to call it a capacitor, it all depends what the dielectric is.
DIELECTRIC;
Oxford dictionary = Insulating (medium or substance ) Non conductive, non conductor .
Collins dictionary = a material, as rubber , glass etc that does not conduct electricity ,non conducting.
Microsoft dictionary =...........?...

Dont use carbon tetrachloride

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Re: Relative Permittivity of Water
« Reply #24 on: October 25, 2010, 01:28:49 AM »
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Offline Torana

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Re: Relative Permittivity of Water
« Reply #25 on: November 21, 2010, 06:45:36 AM »
(I wasnt going to mention this because of the AC testing involved )

 I DO NOT RECOMMEND ANY ONE PERFORM THESE TESTS, IF YOU DO, IT IS AT YOUR OWN RISK
************************************************************************

Theres another major problem with the water "capacitor" and thats capacitive reactance.

Xc = 1  / (2 * pi * f * C )  , frequency dependent formula

A simple test using 230 V AC 50 hz will reveal if there is Reactance or Resistance involved = Brute force test.
Theoretical C = 2.27 nano farad , single "capacitor" test
Predicted Xc  = 1 / ( 2 x pi x 50 x .000 000 002 27 )
@ 50 hz        = 1,402,246 ohm
@ 60 hz        = 1,168,538 ohm
these figures would hold IF it was functioning as a Capacitor.

IF anyone were to do the test using phase and neutral ,theyll find the water boils in 6 seconds.

An alternative test is to use a diode or fullwave bridge rectifier ,which will give a 50 hz 1/2 wave pulse or 100 hz fullwave pulse ,depending on which is used.

The result is that it RAPIDLY pours Hydrogen for a few seconds before it too boils at 6 seconds.
V = 210 VDC , 5 amp .
How well does the Dielectric strength hold up ??

The next monster to raise its ugly head is Impedance
Z = square root of ( R squared  +  X squared )

If the water cap is subjected to AC or pulse of any kind , then it SHOULD present Z and SHOULD have a phase shift of 90 degrees leading .  Z SHOULD equal  X  not  R .

Theres a few sites which have C ,R ,Z figures which do not add up at all. I dont think many people notice the flaws. Murakami etc have NO numbers at all.????




Offline Torana

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Re: Relative Permittivity of Water
« Reply #26 on: November 24, 2010, 09:48:25 AM »
TEST CELL
The pipes were cut to length on a lathe
The centre pipe has a bolt welded + centred on a lathe
The Formica plate is 1/4 inch ,  10 " x  2 "
A pilot hole was drilled and a Hole saw used to cut a groove for the out side pipe
The centre bolt hole + groove were drilled at the same time in a drill press
Theres a uniform 1/16 " spacing
The outside pipe is press fit with sealant on the outside only
The bolt has Heavy duty cable heat shrink which gives an over all distance of 2 " insulation ,so the shortest distance is the 1/16 " between the pipes
The top has a Teflon sleeve glued to the rim so the water level is 5", equal to the centre pipe
Any Voltage, amperage,conductance test,continuity and frequency can be tested on a uniform sample of water between 2 equal size conductive surfaces


Offline Torana

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Re: Relative Permittivity of Water
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2010, 09:12:22 AM »

http://www.alexpetty.com/2010/09/17/water-as-fuel-with-puharich-and-meyer

Air test
freq          C                    R                      Z
100hz       1485pf             1460k                850.2k
120hz       1461pf             1315.6k             769.3k
1khz         571pf               362.1k              218k
10khz       243pf               165.48k             55.3k
DC                                  1276k   

water test
100hz       29.93uf            26.5 ohm           23.8 ohm
120hz       24.78uf            24.9 ohm           22.6 ohm
1khz         1.41uf             16.4 ohm           16.3 ohm
10khz        .300uf             15.1 ohm           15.1 ohm
DC                                 940 ohm           

Permittivity of Air = 1   Water = 80

             water          air   
100hz     29.93uf  /  .001485   = 20,154
120hz     24.78uf  /  .001461   = 16,960
1khz       1.41uf   /   .000571   = 2,469
10khz     .300uf   /   .000243   = 1,234
The difference between air and water cap should be 80 ,the figures above indicate permittivity between from 1200 to 20,000.
If the caps physical dimensions remain the same throughout the test then the permittivity of air also changed from 1 to 6.11.

The DC measurement should be open circuit for a capacitor.
The difference of DC   R readings, 1276000 / 940 = 1357
The water "dielectric" is 1357 times more conductive than air. R = 1 / G . The path of least resistance.
Relying on capacitance meters across water will show false readings all day long. Dry and wet readings always go way beyond the text book 80 .
I havent shown reactance , when theres f and C ,theres Xc ,  Xc and R theres Z.
Im NOT knocking Alex Petty at all ,Im just interested in the figures presented , if anything its a good example.
Ive tested genuine air caps and the result was conduction all the way. A simple test anyone can do and see for themselves.

The cap on the left was submerged...

Offline Torana

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Re: Relative Permittivity of Water
« Reply #28 on: December 17, 2010, 01:33:59 AM »
If breakdown voltage is 30kv per mm , it hasnt been reached in PWM electrolysis cells ,therefore no dielectric breakdown.
This was proven by Aaron Murakami, Dave Lawton, Ravi Raju, Bob Boyce, Fred Wells/FredWoods Will Power/ Fast Freddy and many others.

Collectively they unwittingly proved that a tap water capacitor is not possible.
If they intended on building capacitors ,they ignored permittivity, dimension, the capacitor formula or any approximation of capacitance  measurement.
C = er x e0 x A / d   , for parallel plates.

High power lasers and Accellerators charge pure water for only a micro sec , before the water has time to ionize and conduct, and thats using Pure Water.

One article here shows the model of a water switch, where "it" changes from a dielectric (off) to a resistor (on) .

The "self closing water switch" behaviour doesnt do much for the "water resonance" theory either.

Permittivity = 90

Marx generator and water cap
http://pps.coe.kumamoto-u.ac.jp/streaming/PulsedPower/generator/system1.htm

water cap and self discharge
http://www.el.angstrom.uu.se/meny/artiklar/dielectric%20study%20of.pdf

Sandia 6 MV dielectric breakdown tests
http://www.sandia.gov/pulsedpower/prog_cap/pub_papers/water_breakdown_tests_PRSTAB_2009.pdf

Sandia Water switching/ model /Acoustic wave
http://www.sandia.gov/pulsedpower/prog_cap/pub_papers/022611c.pdf



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Offline Torana

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Re: Relative Permittivity of Water
« Reply #29 on: January 12, 2011, 10:12:21 AM »
Steve from   ionizationx   did a straight forward C test on distilled water.

dry  = 10 pf  ,   R = open
Wet = 200 nf  , R = 3500 ohm  leakage

Everyone and anyone who does the same wet / dry C measurement on their own 'water capacitor'
will show a difference similar to Steves.

Ratio =200 / .010 = 20,000  ,   R = infinity /  3500 = Alot

If physical dimension hasnt changed through the testing then the only variable is permittivity of the dielectric
Permittivity 20000 instead of 80  ( 250 X ) , using distilled water not pure water or tap water
The more people that do wet / dry C and R tests the better.

The main focus has been the C measurement and R has been ignored even though it is the reciprocal of conductance  , the basis of electrolysis.
R is constant and consumes power  , a capacitor does not consume power.

Alex Petty   C = 29.93 uf           R = 940 ohm
Steve         C = 200 nf             R = 3500 ohm
J L Naudin   C = 5.19 nf             R = 2.9 M ohm

Steve and Naudin used distilled water , theres a major difference in R readings

J L Naudin    Resonant  LC circuit

reso frequency = 1 /  2 pi sq rt L C
                     = 1 /  2 x pi x ( sq rt , .246 H x 5.19 nf )
                     = 1 / .00022450763   = 4454 hz
..the centre frequency of these 2 components

A parallel reso LC circuit is an Anti Resonant circuit . The Anti reso / resonant freq of any circuit is very specific.
The permittivity of the dielectric ends up being fundamental to the whole concept.

Theres 2 ways to test the water cap
1 = straight to C meter probes
2 = in series with a known cap ,C1 , and treat as if it were 2 caps in series. C2 = water cap.

calculated with reciprocals

(1 / C measured)  minus  (1 / C1)  =  (1 / C2 ) .

following = water cap with 20 mm gap = 8.85 nf , 5mm gap = 35.4 nf
http://www.elkadot.com/en/magneticity/dielectric%20properties.htm

http://www.alexpetty.com/category/meyer

http://jnaudin.free.fr/wfc/index.htm

10mm gap , 130 kv , 300 nsec , deionized water and no breakdown.

http://resources.metapress.com/pdf-preview.axd?code=867765089j53p375&size=largest

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Re: Relative Permittivity of Water
« Reply #29 on: January 12, 2011, 10:12:21 AM »

 

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