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Author Topic: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage  (Read 61338 times)

Offline Spokane1

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Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
« Reply #75 on: January 21, 2011, 07:11:59 AM »
I don't think so.
Someone just said those batteries under the cart were not powefull enough to run that motor but i know better...
That's a very powerfull source and you can certainly drive that motor for an extended peroide of time.\
I work with these types of battery's and i know what they can do.

I have lost faith, i build several CSET's and i was never able to see anything unusual, so the fact that this was all a joke does not come as a surprise.
But yes i feel bad because when even the big ones turn out to be a hoax then not many is left...

Dear XS-NRG,

If you have taken the time and personal energy (not to mention cost) to accmulate all that test gear and build that good of a CEST replecation then you indeed are one of the "inner circule". (let me know if you need some additional modules for the Tek scope)

I was the one who said the batteries on the Brown Cart "would not run the motor for 2 seconds". That was a direct quote from the man who rebuilt that cart in 1980, Mr. Nelson Schlaft (made in June of 2007).

I realize this is some what of an exergeration since we both know that 4 large batteries like that could hold up to 250 A-hrs at 24 volts. That's enough to run a golf cart thorugh at least a 72 hole course and still get back to the club house. What Mr. schlaft was saying was that the modified Pulse Motors now required a huge amount of classical energy to operate (after he had messed around with them). Somewhere in the neighborhood of 10 KVA with only the small DC generator as a load.

When Mr. Gray made a stock selling trip to the Mid-West in the early 70's all of the motors/engines he demonstrated originally did operate from their onboard batteries. When he made that same stock selling trip in 1982 he had to rent a 50 KVA generator to go on with the show because the 240 AC circuits availabe to him kept blowing the breakers. Obviously something had changed.

It appears you had as much luck with your CEST design (nice craftsmanship) as I did years ago. Well put that nice well built trophy on your fireplace and move on to bigger fish. Let me spin a short yarn or two and consider what I have observed by looking for the truth between the smoke and mirrors.

All the following comments are my personal speculations, assumptions, and WAGS: until proven or disproven with working hadware. If I say this now I will not have to repeate it several times below. I shall forgo all the analysis, history, and corralations that lead to these conclusions. But, if you are interested I would be glad to share my past discovery process with any researcher who works with hardware.

1. The CEST is a waste of time in its present form as it was presented in the 1986 patents. It was a failed idea that was needed to reduce the complexity of the HV switching requirements found in the EMA4 engine. We have better and cheaper solutions these days - let's use them.

2. The EMA4 Free-Energy Engine is what you should consider focusing on. Not the Failed EMA6 or all the Pulse Motors (E1 - E5) that Al Francouer is assembling into his personal collection. Those models were never Free-Energy Engines in the first place. It appears that Marvin discovered the non-classical process when working with the E5 motor (in 1964) - the all plastic case design. In fact Mr. Cole and Gray didn't start out looking for a Free-Energy Engine in 1957 anyway. They were hoping to develop a high torque, low speed, high efficiency industrial electric motor. The Free- Energy process was discovered along the way in 1964 or so.

3. The non-classical process takes place within the engine case. Not the power supply and certainly not the CEST.

4. The heart and soul of the non-classical event is a DC arc that is struck between the stator sections and the rotor sections. Once this arc is established it is stretched for some 13.5 degrees then self quenches. The real kicker is that this arc is stretched across the surface of a particular dielectric with unique electrical properties. It is believed that the dielectric is an industrial plastic made by Dupont called "Delrin" or Polyformaldhyde or Actil.

5. In addition to the stretching process the arc (and the dielectric interpole Delrin blocks) are exposed to a moderate magnetic field created between the "Minor" electromagnets. When the arc is quenched a high voiltage RF electrostatic field is applied at about 90 degrees to the previous electromagnetic field. The RF ring is created between the faces of the "Minor" electromagnets. It is the result of stored magnetic energy in the coils that is oscillating with its own parasitic shunt capacitance. Simulations show a frequency around 200 KHz, but anthing above 50 KHz should get some reaction according to Patric Flanagan's patent with RF stimulated dielectrics. This is a high voltage field approaching 7 KV and lasts for several milliseconds.

4. Something happens under these special circumstances. The results are two fold: a) a huge pulse of torque between the electrodes (the tops of the cores) of the "Minor" electromagnets and 2) a huge electrostatic buildup in the interpole dielectric blocks.

5. This electrostatic charge is harvested by means of reverse electrostatic induction. The hidden design of the EMA4 is very similiar to the design of an electrostatic motor. The aluminum bars upon which the stator electromagnets are mounted on are individually insulated from the case and each other. With the structure of the stator they form one big variable capacitor. As the motor rotates this capacitance changes. The lead-acid battery introduces low energy charge carriers into the variable capacitor at maximum capacitance. By using diodes and the rotation of the stator the total  capacitance reduces thus rasing the voltage potential between the plates and the rotor. At maximum voltage the depleated storage capacitors are switched into the circuit to absorb this non-classical charge. This recharges the capacitors for the next cycle. However the poor storage battery gets hit with an electrostatic pulse it was never designed to handle. The result in 1973 was exploding battereis. I think we can better to solve that issue nowdays.

If you can follow this brief discription with out drawings or schematics you have to be one smart fellow (or lady).

This is how I believe (at them moment) the magic was created. Mr. Ken Sholders has done some interesting work with fixed distance arcs and the creation of anamolous "Charge clusters". He doesn't apply the magnetic field or the 90- degree RF electrostatic field nor does he dymanicaly stretch his arc. Yet he still generates a small population of some kind of wierd particule that contains a huge amount of energy. I suspect that something like this is going on in the arc process that Marvin Cole discovered accidentaly but his production of the anamolous particles was a couple orders of magnitude greater. At least this is waht I'm going to follow up on.

This research is not cheap and it's not simple and it takes a lot of classical engineering to arrive at the non-classical process. This is where my mouth is and this is where I'm putting my time, money and energy until I fail completly (a real possibility), I find a better solution with additional real world experimentation, or someone else comes up with a better idea. (and I shall appluad them when they do).

The EMA0 model helps explain how the electrostatic portion of the engine was wired. The stator and rotor are wired in a "Delta" fashion which is odd for a DC circuit but makes sense. The GD photos have provided numerous clues to arrive at the extreamily summed up conclusions I've listed above. I'm sure anyone of us can take this very same data and come up with hundreds of valid conclusions. But we have to start some where. This is where I've stuck my spade in the ground.

In a few months I plan to write a paper on my assesment on this whole CEST thing. May I use the photo of your replication as part of the discussion? In my opinion, far to many resourceful hardware researchers (myself included) have/are expending their energies on a dead end road. We need to get all the data, photos, and attempted replications in one sock (paper) so we don't all keep trying to re-invent this broken wheel.

Now there are others like Aaron who continue to find interesting effects with fixed arc systems. I think they are diggin a new row and breaking new ground. I wish them the best, but I don't believe this is how Mr. Cole acheived a COP of 275.00 at the power levels he did.


Spokane1

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
« Reply #75 on: January 21, 2011, 07:11:59 AM »

Offline Herger

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Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
« Reply #76 on: January 21, 2011, 07:16:23 AM »
This is very interesting. What is the best source of information on how Cole did things?


Offline Spokane1

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Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
« Reply #77 on: January 21, 2011, 08:50:50 AM »
This is very interesting. What is the best source of information on how Cole did things?

Dear Herger,

I'm glad you asked, because it appears that the reference material I thought was well distributed in this research community has not been available.

In 2005 a elderly man, who wishes to be know only as GD, approached Peter Lindemann and John Benini at a convention. He claimed he had been a previous investor in the E.V. Gray venture. He had a collection of photos taken from April 1974 to June 1976 he wanted to share with serious researchers. At the time he requested that these photos not be posted on the Internet in total. However one or two shots here and there was acceptable. John and Peter complied with his request and these photos were only made to serious researchers whom they knew. Myself and Al Francouer (and others whom I don't know) being fortunate to be allowed this information. Some of the photos were released as circumstances allowed.

If you do a Goggle search on E.V. Gray images any photo that is in color and is not the Valentine color photo of the EMA6 at the Sportsmans Lodge - then it came from the GD collection. There were about 42 photos in this initial collection - about half of them useful, but out of focus and degraded from the scanning process.

In 2009 Peter suggested that I contact GD myself and see if he was willing to share a little more. I booked a reservation and was able to meet with GD personally. His security concerns had abated somewhat but he still wanted to remain in the shadows. He provided me with the original photos and slides taken at the time. I took these to Kinko's and had them rescanned at the highest resolution. For $250 in reproduction fees I had a 4.5 GB DVD disc of all the original photos and a few new ones. In the months following GD provided me with about 90 sheets of business documents: letters, stockholders minutes, commentary, articles, and some of GD's notes taken at the time. He later provided me with a set of six CD audio phone conversations he had with Richard Hackenberger at various times and the events at the 1976 stock holders meeting.

The most important thing GD provided (beside the very useful photos) was hours of his experiences with "Hack", he didn't spend to much time with Gray. With this information I was really able to fill in the important events that were taking place in 1972 - 1974. I also got a better idea as to how to sort out the successful Cole technology form several of Hack's failed honest attempts. Now I was better able to understand how this exchanging technology failed to make it to the main stream.

Half of these photos were of the EMA4 Free-Energy Engine. This was Cole's work and not Hack's.
There are about 6 photos that hold the important clues. I posted these and explained why they were important on this site, but not this thread (2008). I also started my campaign against the CEST as well. Nothing ever happened to them - that I know of, and I don't blame anyone for that. The ideas were to forigen to the mainstream OU concepts at the time, and probably still are.

Without well written commentary, a schematic, drawings, additional photos, and supporting classical references, and useable simulations,  a few stand alone fuzzy photos and a few notes are probably as useful as wet toilet paper.

I hope to rectify this situation with the upcoming paper (book?) that Peter and I are working on. It will all be there, all of the useful photos, drawings, (I'm good with AutoCAD 2011 - at least 2D), recorded comments, schematics, and anything useful that relates to the nut and bolts of how I think this technology was put together. It will all be open source, except for the fee Peter wants to charge for the cost of maintaining his web site and billing services. I'm not planning to receive a dime form this publication. In the mean time I'd doing my own hardware experiments. I have just finished the machining and winding of a set of reproduction full size "Major" and "Minor" electromagnets. I need to test these units to establish what their electrical parameters are for these odd size inductors. Next starts the exploration of the physics of the stretched arc with apparatus that has already been constructed (had to use That new vertical mill for something). After that the various excitation fields will be added one at a time. A lot of work. Hope to keep everyone posted. -but I work at a snails pace.

Since this information will be disclosed in a public forum the foundations of this technology (If correct) can not be patented by anybody anywhere ever. However, there is a lot of room for pantent able improvements, variations, alternate uses, combined technologies, miniaturization, and any other useful application one can think of for this novel technology. (even the anti-gravity phenomena if it is ever rediscovered again). Go out there and make some money with this, but make darn sure it works first and that I'm not blowing a bunch of hot air that sounds good right now.


For me the GD collection has been the sign posts while the EMA0 model has been the cherry on top of the ice cream. A few supporting patents sent to me by friends have tuned out to have been the technical keys. And again I could be all wrong on this, but there will be plenty of information for you to make your own judgment as to how you think it all went together. I firmly believe that it went together some how. I've spent about $50,000 and almost 10 years of spare time on this venture and I think there are others who have spent even more.

Spokane1

Offline XS-NRG

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Offline Spokane1

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Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
« Reply #79 on: January 21, 2011, 09:17:20 PM »
Do you have any info on the coils in this motor? :

http://universalpower.webs.com/gallery/Edwin%20Vincent%20Gray/Close-up%20of%20EMA%204-E2%20stator%20coils%20and%20wiring.html

Dear XS-NRG,

Just a little:

1. The "Major" electromagnet is a transformer, not a straight inductor. One lead of the secondary connects directly to the laminated core, much like an automotive induction coil.

2. Both cores of the "Minor" electromagnet and "Major" Electromagnet are electricalloy connected to each other.

3. Each electromagnet is connected in series with its partner in the back. So front and back electromagnets are connected in series. This complicates the wiring of the "Major" electromagnet secondaries.

4. The "Minor" electromagnet is a straight inductor with an inductance around 0.807 mH using #19 AWG magnte wire (60 turns)

5. The turns ratio of the transformer on the "Major" electromagnet is unknown. I've started with a 1:2 ratio.

6. The insulated sleve that introduces 4 conductors for each electromagnet pair. It appears that not all of these wires are used.

7. The aluminum plates that mount the dovetailed electromagnets has some counterbored holes that are not used, suggesting these these assemblies were once used in a different engine case (the EMA3?)

8. I suspect that the "Minor" electromagnet is wired in series with the secondary of the "Major" transformer. Much like a HIB ballist to limit current after the arc is struck. The arc has to last about 8 milliseconds at the slowest speed. So far with the simulations I've done I need more inductance all around. This suggests that all of these devides on one mounting pad are connected in series. If this line of thinking is correct.

9. The EMA0 suggests that groups of three stator sets are wired in a "Delta" fashion.

Spokane1

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
« Reply #79 on: January 21, 2011, 09:17:20 PM »
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Offline XS-NRG

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Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
« Reply #80 on: January 21, 2011, 10:05:23 PM »
Thank you.

Offline Spokane1

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Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
« Reply #81 on: January 22, 2011, 06:34:46 AM »
Thank you.

Dear XS-NRG,

I'll be drawing up a schematic of the EMA4 after I get off vacation. Drop me a line at mmckay@simplexgrinnell.com and I'll be glad to send you a pdf copy of the same (or a .dwg file if you have AutoCAD). Also if there are any photos, drawings, reports, or additional wild speculations you need to assist in your line of research I'll be glad to send those along as well.

Best of Luck in solving any part of this lost mystery,

Spokane1

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
« Reply #81 on: January 22, 2011, 06:34:46 AM »
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quarktoo

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Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
« Reply #82 on: January 22, 2011, 07:16:20 AM »
Dear XS-NRG,

Just a little:

1. The "Major" electromagnet is a transformer, not a straight inductor. One lead of the secondary connects directly to the laminated core, much like an automotive induction coil.

2. Both cores of the "Minor" electromagnet and "Major" Electromagnet are electricalloy connected to each other.

3. Each electromagnet is connected in series with its partner in the back. So front and back electromagnets are connected in series. This complicates the wiring of the "Major" electromagnet secondaries.

4. The "Minor" electromagnet is a straight inductor with an inductance around 0.807 mH using #19 AWG magnte wire (60 turns)

5. The turns ratio of the transformer on the "Major" electromagnet is unknown. I've started with a 1:2 ratio.

6. The insulated sleve that introduces 4 conductors for each electromagnet pair. It appears that not all of these wires are used.

7. The aluminum plates that mount the dovetailed electromagnets has some counterbored holes that are not used, suggesting these these assemblies were once used in a different engine case (the EMA3?)

8. I suspect that the "Minor" electromagnet is wired in series with the secondary of the "Major" transformer. Much like a HIB ballist to limit current after the arc is struck. The arc has to last about 8 milliseconds at the slowest speed. So far with the simulations I've done I need more inductance all around. This suggests that all of these devides on one mounting pad are connected in series. If this line of thinking is correct.

9. The EMA0 suggests that groups of three stator sets are wired in a "Delta" fashion.

Spokane1

Any chance the magnets passing would also be acting like a magneto spark gap to align the magnetic oxygen in the motor housing between the magnets. I.e., did Gray mix the Gray tube into the motor inductors themselves?

I think therein lies the "secret" to this mystery. There seems to be no other way to explain why there was so much air space (magnegas space) in the motor and why all that sealant on the end plates and parts to keep it there.

I would be looking for unusual levels of corrosion inside the motor when normally over time, something sealed up like that would display none.

I tried to teach Aaron about this a few years ago regarding the Gray tube but he pointed out to me out smart he was and what an idiot and I am. I'm sure at times that appears true, just not that time. Things are not always what they appear to be on the surface.

Offline Spokane1

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Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
« Reply #83 on: January 22, 2011, 08:54:14 PM »
Any chance the magnets passing would also be acting like a magneto spark gap to align the magnetic oxygen in the motor housing between the magnets. I.e., did Gray mix the Gray tube into the motor inductors themselves?

I think therein lies the "secret" to this mystery. There seems to be no other way to explain why there was so much air space (magnegas space) in the motor and why all that sealant on the end plates and parts to keep it there.

I would be looking for unusual levels of corrosion inside the motor when normally over time, something sealed up like that would display none.

I tried to teach Aaron about this a few years ago regarding the Gray tube but he pointed out to me out smart he was and what an idiot and I am. I'm sure at times that appears true, just not that time. Things are not always what they appear to be on the surface.

Dear Quarktoo,

No doubt there is something to explore concerning the impact of the magnetic field on air moluclules, but it is going to be a while before I can get to that level of detail. Peter Lindemann has just released a new book on that very subject, so it is something well worth looking into.

The sucessful EMA4 Free-Energy Engine had an outboard air blower that provided 1/2 psi of pressure to the internal engine case the the two chambers that held the various switching commutators. No doubt as lot of air was being moved through this machine.

Mr. Hackenberger maintained in one of his "engineering reports" that he thought the source of the anomalous energy was from the decomposition of the oxygen in the air. I have no history of any gasous chemistry analysis being done by any of Gray's research associates. This was one subject that was discussed by not studied.

But, you are correct on that corrosion issue. With that many arcs, even with the air flow, NO2 and nitric acid will eventually have an impact on the metal surfaces, especially any exposed aluminum parts. However, there is probably nothing that can't be mitigated with proper materials design.

Spokane1

Offline XS-NRG

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Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
« Reply #84 on: January 22, 2011, 09:38:59 PM »
I do not think air or any other gas plays a role in Gray's ema system and i don't think there was a high vacuum.
I have done some research into ions/gas/vacuum/plasma etc..
I have build several vacuum tubes and plasmatron/pagd gas discharge devices. :)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
« Reply #84 on: January 22, 2011, 09:38:59 PM »
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quarktoo

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Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
« Reply #85 on: January 23, 2011, 03:07:22 AM »
I do not think air or any other gas plays a role in Gray's ema system and i don't think there was a high vacuum.
I have done some research into ions/gas/vacuum/plasma etc..
I have build several vacuum tubes and plasmatron/pagd gas discharge devices. :)

Shiny!

I don't think there was a high vacuum either but I think there is a gas in there. Could just be ozone at ambient pressure and 12% O2 air but seems like there has to be something.

Nice build XS-NRG. Does it do anything?

quarktoo

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Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
« Reply #86 on: January 23, 2011, 03:30:36 AM »
Dear Quarktoo,

No doubt there is something to explore concerning the impact of the magnetic field on air moluclules, but it is going to be a while before I can get to that level of detail. Peter Lindemann has just released a new book on that very subject, so it is something well worth looking into.

The sucessful EMA4 Free-Energy Engine had an outboard air blower that provided 1/2 psi of pressure to the internal engine case the the two chambers that held the various switching commutators. No doubt as lot of air was being moved through this machine.

Mr. Hackenberger maintained in one of his "engineering reports" that he thought the source of the anomalous energy was from the decomposition of the oxygen in the air. I have no history of any gasous chemistry analysis being done by any of Gray's research associates. This was one subject that was discussed by not studied.

But, you are correct on that corrosion issue. With that many arcs, even with the air flow, NO2 and nitric acid will eventually have an impact on the metal surfaces, especially any exposed aluminum parts. However, there is probably nothing that can't be mitigated with proper materials design.

Spokane1

Hey thanks for the reply.

I must admit I don't know much about Gray's models (EMA4) but I have studied the photos of that youtube video owned by Francoure or something like that. Claimed he found it in texas. IS that the one you are referring to?

The othr question I would have and you probably can't verify it is are you sure it was a 1/2 PSI of pressure or vacuum?

Sure seems like Gray went to a lot of trouble to seal that motor housing with silicone. That aspect of the invention is about the only lead I see worth following after so many years of nothing.

I have a vacuum chamber that can pull close to a hard vacuum. I might have to put a transformer in there and do my own experiments. I never really thought about a vacuum transformer before but since a vacuum is all that is needed to produce x-ray, it makes me think that is somewhat interesting.


quarktoo

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Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
« Reply #87 on: January 23, 2011, 04:23:51 AM »
@ Spokane1

OK So I boned up on the latest model thanks to some really clear photos someone posted online and the plot thickens. The more I learn about this, the less I know.

Your observation regarding the wire to the cores seems rather key don't you think? I just want to throw that out there and maybe someone could explain that?

The only place I have ever seen that is a microwave oven transformer. Is that to produce a unipolar pulse?

This new info. that you guys are bringing out is fascinating. The photo of children playing with a light bulb in water... This is not the electricity that PGE sells.

OK, I'll stop with my stupid gas in a casing suggestion.

Any ideas on that grounded core would be appreciated.


Offline Herger

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Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
« Reply #88 on: January 23, 2011, 04:43:29 AM »
Spokane1

Do you know what happened to Al Francoure?  Last I heard he had a self-runner.  You may remember it, it was mostly wood and pivoted up and down.  I can't recall the patent he followed, Wesley I think.  Al also had a variable reluctance generator that he thought could go OU with some work.


quarktoo

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Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
« Reply #89 on: January 23, 2011, 05:02:39 AM »
Spokane1

Do you know what happened to Al Francoure?  Last I heard he had a self-runner.  You may remember it, it was mostly wood and pivoted up and down.  I can't recall the patent he followed, Wesley I think.  Al also had a variable reluctance generator that he thought could go OU with some work.

Dearest Grumpy AKA Herger,

I get the impression you like me a lot since no matter where I go, there you are.  I can be at least as nasty as you or I can be as nice as you. I am what you make me. Let's start fresh? The alternative is too horrible to speak of.

I'll give you my latest goofy theory and we will see if you can play nice:

When an electrical arc occurs, a cavitation takes place and a sound particle called a phonon is created.

Next they say you can resonate an iron core at it's resonant frequency with a piezo and produce an electrical current through a coil.

Next when a iron core is magnetized with a coil, AB oscillations take place in the core.

And finally if a phonon was collected and delivered to the core to ring it like a bell at just the right time, maybe the AB oscillation could be larger?

I have another theory but I'm saving the other one just in case you still want to play the game.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Complete EV Gray Motor Found In Storage
« Reply #89 on: January 23, 2011, 05:02:39 AM »

 

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