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New Battery systems => Other new battery systems => Topic started by: dani on April 26, 2006, 10:11:36 PM

Title: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: dani on April 26, 2006, 10:11:36 PM
Does somebody know what John is mixing exactly in his Video?


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5787522280823887082&q=hutchison&pl=true
http://www.hutchisoneffect.biz/Mainforum/forums/7/ShowForum.aspx
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on April 28, 2006, 02:45:32 PM
No, I do not know exactly what John H. is mixing in the video,
but I do have a very good idea of what it must be.

Read the "Marcus Reid Battery" posts in this same section, that
should provide some insight into the matter.

I have studied all material I could find about John H.'s 'Crystal Power Cell',
and directly related topics like petroelectric effects, and have concluded
that Marcus Reids 'Crystal Battery' appears to be the same thing as
Hutchisons power cell, just in a slightly different configuration.
Nice thing about Reids Battery is that he has the thing documented
in much more detail than John H. ever cared to do.

In a nutshell, both H. and R. were intrigued by petrovoltaics upon which
they 'stumbled' seperately and in different ways, and both of them set out
to construct a form of permanent battery based on special composition
of a solid, ceramic-like material. H. ends up talking about 'petro-electric effect',
'exotic silicates', 'silicate platelets' and the 'casimir effect', which allow
'electrons to accumulate at the central post'. Reid started out trying calcite-
based compounds and later found that certain silicates in specific situations
appeared to produce the desired effect.
It seems that both of them are basically harnessing e/m fluctuations
inside a material composed of SiO2 and other silicates (Si-compounds),
by exposing the material to electric fields during solidification, which
causes a sort of rectifying effect inside the material, which in turn
causes electrons to accumulate on one electrod. As you must know,
SiO2 is quartz, which is known for its oscillatory properties, and various
arrangements and sizes of quartz crystals (or molecules) can be used
in amplification of ambient oscillations.
Reids battery appears to do just that, and convert ambient oscillations
(e/m and heat) into electron motion.
Hutchisons Cell, if you look at the substance it is made from and the
explanation of its componenets, as well as the output, appears to
be a different form of the same battery concept.

The exact mix of ingredients however, is unknown to me.
If you ever manage to find it, I'd really appreciate it if you'd post
it here!

Regards,
Koen
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on April 29, 2006, 03:20:46 PM
de Lanca,

looks like you got the idea.  ;)

Can you provide a url for some good information
on that Matei Marinescu patent please?

I've searched and not found anything usefull...
Would be much appreciated!

As with the Hutchison/Reid Crystal battery,
and directly related power sources:
I think I know almost exactly how they
work, and how they should be composed.

Thing is, I'm reluctant to tell just anyone,
because it is actually very simple, when you
get down to it. The production process itself is
the tricky part.
But anyone with a good understanding of basic
(read: post 1960s) electronics and electrodynamics
should be able to work it out.
I am certainly willing to discuss the internal
composition of such a crystal power cell,
but only with people who have shown they are
on the level.
Your mentioning of said crystal patents is encouraging.
I'd be willing to discuss the thing in detail,
if you can give me a satisfactory description of
what you think goes on inside the power cell,
electrodynamically speaking.
I'll give you a hint: it seems to be about two basic
processes, that of .......tion and .........tion.

another reason why I do not easily divulge this
information is that I'm working on a version of my own,
still based on the same principles, but yet another
slightly different configuration. Untill I've managed to
produce a version that functions to my satisfaction, I
will not just post this info for anyone. But I will discuss
it with people who can show they know their bananas.
;-)
Besides, it's not much use to know how this works unless
you're planning to use the knowledge. And I prefer
people who can understand it to share the knowledge,
instead of multi-million dollar multinational companies who
will try to make more money out of it...

Kind regards,
Koen

Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on April 30, 2006, 05:01:49 PM
 :)
Alright, think about it...
Shouldn't be hard at all, I've actully already said half of it...
If you know your quartz from your silicates, their electrodynamic
properties and applications, the internal composition is
fairly straightforward. Still complex, mind you, but not extremely
exotic. What is quartz? What does it do? What is it used for?
What other uses does silicium have in electronics? Aks yourself this.
Reid also says it all, in his own way. Hutchison is more
confusing than helpful with his statements. Brown had a good
idea, and his patent applications are very clear.

Brown always used high-K materials in his dielectric experiments.
He found barium titanate to be one of the best dielectrics.
As you must know, he found out how to produce electrically
induced anti-gravity by basically putting extremely high voltage
on two capacitor plates. Obviously, the highr the K, the higher the
voltage may rise before it burns out the cap, hence his high-K
research. He also found that certain high-K materials among
which specific basalt rocks from certain natural deposits, appear
to spontaneously produce voltages, which varied with gravitational
fluctuations. This research resembles H. and R.s work.
Hutchson also used barium titanate in some of his crystal cell versions.
And this material is also a piezoelectric, just like quartz.
Quartz is just so much cheaper. ;-)

Thanks, will search the patent.

Regards,
Koen


Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: clearchrome on September 13, 2007, 07:55:24 AM
Testing my theory
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: fot on October 07, 2007, 10:29:07 PM
Testing my theory

Anyone tested to make these crystal powercells with sucsess besides john hutchison and mr Reid?
i have ben looking at many pages related to the batterys and i cant find anyone else who claims that they work or know/are willing to write the "shake and bake recipie". wikipedia sais that "Rochelle salts, gallium, iron pyrite, and germanium" is the basic formula... but where do you get your hands on that? ???
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on October 09, 2007, 01:11:23 PM
Yes, I have experience with the power cells.
The wikipedia article gives typical unclear and incomplete information. Disregard it entirely.
Do your own background research on Hutchison and in particular any an all of the things he has said in videos, radio- and written interviews regarding his energy research. Also do not forget he has basically repeated all basic electrical experiments since the discovery of electrical charge, from Ampere, Volta and Faraday to Tesla and beyond, from basic charge experiments to scalar energy patterns, and from macroscale elecrtical discharge events to quantumelectrodynamics.
Do not think you will understand how such a cell might work if you do not know all of this information.

In fact, the only people I know that understand its function and composition, including myself, are all highly knowledgable of these things and most times for the larger part autodidact, because a 'normal' education will most often not teach you the insights and understanding you need.

In any case, it is definately possible to construct a type of energy cell using certain very specific "rochelle salts", gallium and germanium, possibly even pyrite, but most importantly it still needs certain other chemicals. This partial chemicals list is totally useless. It's like saying that you make a bread by using some form of wheat, some salt, and an oven. You're missing key ingredients and key elements of the process. But what you get when you use such an incomplete 'recipe' is not at all what you were aiming for.

The entire Wikipedia article is flawed in respect to the energy cell.
For example, where is a transcript or at least account of Hutchisons presentation of his "Hiroshima Cell", where he very clearly described that specific type of cell as constructed mainly of Barium Titanate and thin metal plates? That type of cell is not at all similar to the "cheap and dirty"/"shake and bake" type cell. Oh yes, the underlying 'basic' theory is similar to a certain point, but the design, construction, materials and as a result the cell itself is almost completely different.
The "basic formula" given in the Wikipedia article is not actually the "basic formula" at all. It is a partial description of certain chemical elements that may be used in the construction of one possible form and type of energy cell. The "Hiroshima cell" and the "dirt cheap"-cell are NOT the same thing.

I am not going to reveal the exact composition nor production process of such energy cell here at this time.
It has taken me quite some time (years) to gain enough understanding of the (quantum) electrodynamic processes taking place, and in fact I think I have provided all the leads to directly related research in my previous posts. Using those leads, one should be able to study all the related electrical and chemical theory needed to develop a similar insight.
But to push you in the right direction, I would advise to study the video that shows Hutchison cooking up one of his "dirt cheap" cells in detail, then study the materials he talks about (and adds to the mixture). Think along the lines of directly related chemicals and reactions between said related chemicals and the other materials he uses. Remember he is using cheap chemicals so nothing too fancy.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: fot on October 09, 2007, 05:35:50 PM
well i have done some research to, but not as much as you thou. But it seems it gets the energy from either "the petro electrical effect" witch is a proven theory i think, or the casimir effect or maby even from both  as he states in the video. The petroelectrical effect might appear in some semi conductors like quartz or granit as you said earlier. but the casimir effect occurs between metall plates and vacuum. so perhaps its some sort of metal powder he mixes in the solution?
but then how do you get a crystal structure from just a 500 c ? he cant melt stone or metal on that.

this feels like alchemy and the search to make gold.  :'(
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on October 09, 2007, 09:42:46 PM
Ok well if you have done your research you should have realised that just wildly dropping the Casimir effect like Hutchison does does not really say anything, since he never explains how the effect is related to the functioning of the cells.
The petro-electrical effect or petrovoltaic effect is indeed a proven effect, but the exact reason for it, the underlying 'mechanism' is not very clearly understood. Or at least, there is next to nothing to be found describing this mechanism. without the underlying theory of operation, this is no more than an observed effect in the rocks and ceramics Brown studied and mentions in his patent applications.

A problem here is that Hutchison almost never replies to emails from other inventors/researchers asking him to discuss his cells. He is apparently not interested in sharing his discoveries...

From the sparse information I was able to track down I did conclude that he first made his fairly complex BariumTitanate-based power cell, and only some time after that turned his approach to a "dirt cheap" one. A communication between him and Bearden suggests this cell was composed of thin metal plates, covered with a layer of BaTi piezoelectric/dielectric, and placed very close together. One can see how the Casimir effect might relate to this. But how then this effect also applies to the "dirt cheap" versions is never explained by him. Long, hard thinking may provide insight ;)

You are also right that 500 degrees celcius is not hot enough to melt rock or metal. Well, at least, no hard metal.
Obviously he is not actually melting rock or metal at all. How would you go about making a rock-like material?

I am sorry that I do not explain all, but it would take a lot of text to explain everything, and it has taken me quite a lot of time and work to figure this out and even I am still experimenting.

It does indeed resemble the search for the philosophers stone.
And in a way, it is.
"Free energy" is the modern-day Philosophers Stone, the 21st century Holy Grail. ;)
And I suspect the search itself will yield breakthrough insights and discoveries that will ultimately serve to improve our technology and way of life, very much like Alchemy and its more official offspring Chemistry have done in the past.


Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Freezer on October 10, 2007, 12:46:34 AM
A problem here is that Hutchison almost never replies to emails from other inventors/researchers asking him to discuss his cells. He is apparently not interested in sharing his discoveries...

It doesn't look like you are either...  :'(

You are right that John doesn't give out details, but he did say on his site, that he will release all his papers in ......ten years...By that time we will have nuked ourselves into disaster fighting over the last drops of oil.  This battery has always interested me, being that John says you can make this out of simple materials.  Too bad its so simple no one can do it lol.  I think that baghdad battery is interesting, does that relate to Hutchison's cell?

I did make a water battery like the lemon battery, just with no lemon and lit a led.  Sadly the amps suck, and adding more cells only increases the power with smaller and smaller power gains.  I was thinking perhaps the Stanley hydrogen process could be started just by water itself, with enough cells.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: argona369 on October 10, 2007, 02:52:08 AM
a long while ago I think I worked it out.
baking soda (heated till it melted) and some rocks, can?t
remember which rocks at the moment. Was ordinary though
Some sort of porous rock I think it was.
And it looked to be ordinary electrochemical action.
I never made one but would be easy enough to try out
If you wanted too.
And, I could be wrong, I can?t remember how I worked it out.

Added:
Maybe not sodium bicarbonate?
I just looked it up , and it decomposest  200 c?
(500 c was quoted before)
but does melt at a much lower temp, (60 c)
http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/s2954.htm

Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: fot on October 10, 2007, 01:58:51 PM
Added:
Maybe not sodium bicarbonate?


yeh , but does that form a crystal strukture when it solidifies? i read somewhere that if you give the battery a charge when it turns to crystal strukture you will easyer guide the crystal strukture to increas the petroelectrical effect.
salt forms a crystal strukture so maby you just have to have salt crystals and quartz?

update* and koen1 why do you suggest that he uses quartz? that T.brown guy suggests that "Granite and dense lava rocks so far have shown the greatest voltage output."

But you can wonder what would happen to the world if this technology went public and you wouldnt need oil.. the oil rich countrys would be "dirt poor" lol.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on October 11, 2007, 05:41:08 PM
Added:
Maybe not sodium bicarbonate?


yeh , but does that form a crystal strukture when it solidifies? i read somewhere that if you give the battery a charge when it turns to crystal strukture you will easyer guide the crystal strukture to increas the petroelectrical effect.
salt forms a crystal strukture so maby you just have to have salt crystals and quartz?

Well as far as I know it doesn't work with baking soda... But then again, it is possible that a variation could be made with that, if you use the right mixture of other chemicals... I do not think Hutchison used bicarbonate... But if you get any interesting results experimenting with it by all means make a cell, I'd be interested to hear if it worked. Didn't work in my experiments but like I said, if you mix in just the right chemicals it might.

Quote
update* and koen1 why do you suggest that he uses quartz? that T.brown guy suggests that "Granite and dense lava rocks so far have shown the greatest voltage output."
Have you also read up on Browns follow-up research? He studied the basalt and granite rocks in connection with his study of high K materials, which was directly related to high high voltage capacitor research which was in turn directly related to his research in electrogravitational effects. Which in turn explains why he applied for a patent for a gravity fluctuation detector based on the basalt/granite rocks: his research showed that high voltage on capacitor plates appears to negatve gravity if done properly, and therefor he hypothesised that the electrical charge measured on the natural basalt would have something to do with gravity. Measured increased output during full moon and during conjunctions of planets seemed to prove this theory correct (to a degree at least).
After studying the natural rocks, which by the way all have a high K (=dielectric constant), he turned his study toward artificial high K ceramic ("rocky") materials.
From his earlier high voltage research he had learnt that certain ceramics had very high K, and could therefore be used to make a very high voltage capacitor.
So now he studied these synthetic ceramics, and found that BariumTitanate blocks often (apparently not always?) showed a small charge accumulation, similar to the natural basalt rocks he found in Hawaii. Ok so we have Bariumtitanate.

Remember, John Hutchison also mentioned BariumTitanate in his presentation of hit BaTi energy cell in Hiroshima. This was one of the main components of that type of cell.
So now we have two different inventors who mentioned Barium titanate in relation to a process of petroelectric charge generation. That should be enough reason to look into the material a bit.

When you do this, you quickly find out it is not only a good dielectric (=high K) material so very usefull in capacitors, but you also find out it is a piezoelectric material.
Now piezoelectrics is very interesting as pressure fluctuations are turned into electrical charge fluctuations... Hey, could this possibly have anything to do with the mysterious generation of charge? Yes, it could very well. ;-)

Then lets now look back at your remark and look up some information on Basalt rock and Granite, shall we?
Basalt generally has a composition of 45-55 wt% SiO2, 2-6 wt% total alkalis, 0.5-2.0 wt% TiO2, 5-14 wt% FeO and 14 wt% or more Al2O3. Contents of CaO are commonly near 10 wt%, those of MgO commonly in the range 5 to 12 wt%.
A worldwide average of the average proportion of the different chemical components in granites, in descending order by weight percent, is: SiO2 @ 72.04%, Al2O3 @ 14.42%, K2O @ 4.12%, Na2O @ 3.69%, CaO @ 1.82%, FeO @ 1.68% (rest omitted. Avg of avg comp because Granite is different on every deposit).
So in general we can safely conclude that both rock types consiste for 50 to 70% of SiO2 (=quartz), for 14% of Al2O3, and varying percentags of other metal oxides.

Now it just so happens that quartz is also a dielectric material and also has piezoelectric properties. And it is abundant since all sand and rock consists for the most part of SiO2. Therfor it is cheaper than barium titanate.
And did Hutchison not call it the "dirt cheap method"? Indeed, dirt is cheap. ;-)
And that is how I came to mention quartz.

But you should have been able to figure that link out yourself if you had done the background research... (teaser ;-))

Quote
But you can wonder what would happen to the world if this technology went public and you wouldnt need oil.. the oil rich countrys would be "dirt poor" lol.
Indeed. Which is why one should be a bit careful. The oil barons are not know for their tolerance of inventors wh threaten their power base. Of course nothing can be proven but I would like to point out the tragic and quite implausible "deadly fall" mr. Stefan Marinov made from the staircase of the Graz university library... (and not long after coming up with a magnetic vortex generator that he claimed could well produce over unity power too. Coincidence? Oficcially it is.)
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: fot on October 11, 2007, 10:40:03 PM
the "PRELIMINARY PATENT DESCRIPTION "BATTERY" Docket Number 1687"  :D claims that molten carnauba wax mixed with tungsten carbide will work.. carnauba wax is carwax but is carwax "molten"?
and good luck at making powder out of tungsten carbide, you will have to pulverize drills..

perhaps carwax mixed with quartz?
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on October 11, 2007, 11:19:22 PM
the "PRELIMINARY PATENT DESCRIPTION "BATTERY" Docket Number 1687"  :D claims that molten carnauba wax mixed with tungsten carbide will work.. carnauba wax is carwax but is carwax "molten"?
and good luck at making powder out of tungsten carbide, you will have to pulverize drills..

perhaps carwax mixed with quartz?

Once again some fairly superficial research into the uses of the material would have provided more insight.

Carnauba (or carnuba) wax is indeed used in car waxes, in mustache waxes, in surf waxes, and as edible wax coating for many types of candy.
The only usefull application of Carnauba wax in electrodynamics that seems to be related to the generation of usable charge that I know of, is its use as primary material for the Eguchi style Electret. (other forms of electret as well)
Brown's Carnauba-based "batteries"/"energy cells" sound like electrets to me...
In general a Carnauba-wax based electret would be made by melting the wax, pouring it into a cylindrical container (as if you were making a candle), then inserting electrodes at the ends, and putting high voltage on the electrodes during the time the wax cools and hardens. Once it has hardened and cooled completely, the voltage feed can be removed, and the resulting bar should produce voltage on the electrodes, which can be used. It keeps producing voltage at the ends, even after you discharge the electrodes. It doesn't last forever though, the charge generated drops very slowly and depending on how well the electret was made it will run for a few years before dying out.
So as you can see, melting the wax and adding any material seems to be "simply" a variation of a "standard" carnauba electret.

Perhaps it would already be quite cool to build a number of electrets? Their principle of operation as well as construction is entirely different from the power cells Hutchison made though, so you would be straying from the subject a little ;-)
But they will provide low amp low voltage dc or simply static charge that can be used, and they will do it for long periods of time. Effectively you would still have an energy souce made from relatively cheap material that will last for years. And it is much simpler to construct than a "crystal energy cell" is.

Oh, as for the tungsten carbide, of course you do not have to pulverize a tungsten drill. As with almost any chemical, it can be obtained in powedered form.
The tungsten carbide is probably just used to enhance the charge accumulation at the electret "poles"...

Of course nowadays we have new electret materials that can produce a significantly higher output, but they are expensive and often quite hard to work with, as a hobby electret builder. ;-)
For those of you that are interested in building a carnauba wax one, or just want to read up a little, a quick stroll on the interweb resulted in the following site which I think will help you on your way: http://ether.sciences.free.fr/electrets.htm

I do not think mixing quartz in with the wax will increase the output, as the electret effect does not rely on any piezoelectric properties, and quartz itself is a dielectric (and therefor non conductive)...
But if you're planning to experiment with carnauba wax electrets then by all means try to make a couple with varying degrees of quartz and see what it does.
Experiments are still the mother of invention. :-) If you are going to try it though, I would advise to get as fine quartz powder as you can for I doubt larger quartz crystals will work.
In any case, how do you think the electret was invented in the first place? Pure experimentation. In Eguchis case, one day he decided he would just stick high voltage electrodes in molten wax and see what it does. He just so happened to have used carnauba wax amongst others, and stumbled across the effect.
You might just stumble across a fantastic new way to increase carnauba electret output... you never know! ;-)
 
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Pirate88179 on October 12, 2007, 02:58:56 AM
I watched several of the Hutchison videos and then found several more related links and watched them.  One thing I remember was that, in one of them, he was walking outside and picked up a bunch of processed gravel used to landscape around a local building and he said, yes here is what we need.  Dramatic maybe?  I will say that, in those samples he picked up, and, in the conglomerate he showed as the little cell I saw a lot of what appeared to be quartz crystals.  I know he was not getting his over hot enough to melt the quartz but, maybe that makes something in his shake and bake resonate at quartz frequencies?  A lot of people refer to John as a kook but I have follwed his research for many years now and, seeing his levitation of a 70 lb cannon ball told me something is going on there. I respect his accomplishments.

If anyone here claims to have replicated his power cell, and does not want to disclose the info, I respect that...personal decision.  But, does your cell put out the 1/2 volt that his little cell did?  And, he claims that, even with a light load, has done so for over a year?  Are you results the same?  He even admitted in one video that his larger cells with better mixtures (more refined) do not perform as well as the little glob one he started with.  If he is correct, these are not batteries, these are generators, or power cells taping into, as he said zero point energy, whch I think is just another way of say a source we don't know about yet.

Bill
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Freezer on October 12, 2007, 05:15:39 AM
Stefan has made some cells.  Maybe he will share what he did or do a search.  The cells always excited me.

Hutchison is way out there, but I have seen him on discovery channel.  Videos were old (And Joe Newman was on that same show). 

My thought, it was a good show.  But I really would have to see it with my own eyes to believe it (on the lifting of objects that are 70lbs). 

His loss of hair, would tell me RF from the people I know that worked in that area.  But his lab was random parts.  The Government took it, but bought more random parts and it still works. 

He knows something and does not tell?  Why would he not tell to ensure his name, unlike his body, will live forever?

I think he has tried to explain it to people, but they can't replicate what hes done, and he doesn't write stuff down and document the exact settings he uses.  I would think in conducting these experiments, you would have to be spot on with the settings, and since he can't provide that data no one can replicate what he's done.  I'm sure the military has explored it, and whatever they find, you won't being reading about it anywhere.  As for the other stuff, he said he would release it in 10 years, but I have no reason why that would be.  Last time I looked, he was trying to sell all his stuff on ebay.

This is a interesting video on levitation with sound.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94KzmB2bI7s

Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Pirate88179 on October 12, 2007, 05:23:16 AM
Yes, and search Google for his videos and you will see some very interesting results. I am sorry I don't have the links here, but I went to Google from a link and explored a little.  Let me know if you can't find them....there are several with the cannonball experiment there.  Was it faked?  I don't really know...always possible but I think he is messing with stuff no one, including himself, understands at this time.  He has so much equipment that I am surprised he can replicate what he has done in the past.  I would hate to pay his electric bill.  My personal opinion is that he is like a lot of us and experiments, turning this and adding that, so maybe even he does not know exacty what the heck is going on.


Bill
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: fot on October 17, 2007, 08:57:35 PM
Now i read some document that says that he uses "common cemicals and water to make a rock soup witch when solidified allowes the drawing of electrical energy". So water might be another component. Is he mixing quartz, gypsum and water?  ::)
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on October 18, 2007, 01:46:51 PM
Yes, and search Google for his videos and you will see some very interesting results. I am sorry I don't have the links here, but I went to Google from a link and explored a little.  Let me know if you can't find them....there are several with the cannonball experiment there.  Was it faked?  I don't really know...always possible but I think he is messing with stuff no one, including himself, understands at this time.  He has so much equipment that I am surprised he can replicate what he has done in the past.  I would hate to pay his electric bill.  My personal opinion is that he is like a lot of us and experiments, turning this and adding that, so maybe even he does not know exacty what the heck is going on.


Bill

Guys,

this is NOT a thread on the "Hutchison Effect" with all its related phenomena of levitation and cold melting of metals.
This thread is about his "energy cell".
Please do not pollute the thread with speculation on his "Hutchison Effect" research.

Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on October 18, 2007, 02:06:39 PM
Now i read some document that says that he uses "common cemicals and water to make a rock soup witch when solidified allowes the drawing of electrical energy". So water might be another component. Is he mixing quartz, gypsum and water?  ::)

I don't think so... Have you tried it? Seems simple enough to test.
Anyone can throw speculative suggestions around, but if you don't really test your ideas it remains speculation...
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: fot on October 20, 2007, 07:06:41 PM
koen1 , whats a good power source for "charging" the battery when it cools? it should have a high voltage but what shall the amps be you think? can you use a car battery or a battery charger or something?  ;D
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on October 21, 2007, 02:42:41 PM
Fot, I think the high voltage is more important than the amperage here.
As you have probably seen on the Hutchison "Invent This" video, he presses the hV leads onto the cells electrodes using only his fingers.
I would say that is high Voltage low amperage as everyone knows the higher the amps the more nasty the effects on living tissue.
Also it seems to me he uses the high voltage to induce an electrostatic seperation of various particles in the mix, while it is solidifying. For that you need voltage rather than amperage.

So I would assume a good high voltage source is all you need. A nice VandeGraaff generator might well work. Or you might be able to use one of the transformers used in cathode-tube monitors or tvs, they usually produce good hV too.
A car battery is probably way too low voltage, and I don't know what charger you were thinking of, but certain chargers produce hV high amp spikes and that might just not be desirable for achieving the elecrostatic seperation... But it might also work, so it never hurts to try eh  :)

Kind regards,
Koen
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: jeanna on December 24, 2007, 07:40:05 AM
so perhaps its some sort of metal powder he mixes in the solution?
but then how do you get a crystal structure from just a 500 c ? he cant melt stone or metal on that.

this feels like alchemy and the search to make gold.  :'(

Hi guys,
I've been at the earth battery thread and I was looking for more input and ran across this thread.

Check out   www.geopolymers.org  It may give some good information especially about how to make rocks from pulverized rock dust.

Definitely dirt cheap!!!

Then I would like to know how to energize it as it hardens. Do I need to make an electrostatic generator?

jeanna
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on January 01, 2008, 07:55:14 AM
Hi Guys, it's my first time here. I've been following this thread for quite awhile with great interest.
I have been experimenting with crystal cells for many years and had some success,( if you can call 20mV a success).
Like most of you here I have studied the same videos on John Hutchison and with respect to the one where you see him crushing
rocks and mixing them with white powder this was a mere demo of the proceedure.

Obviously he was showing us the crude basic steps not the exact method. Those rocks needed a lot more pounding.
Also I noticed a long time ago that there was no way in the world was he going to achieve a temperature above 250 - 300 degrees C
with his open air electric stove. I've tried it. If you build a kiln around it with fire bricks to prevent the surrounding air from cooling it,
you can get the temp up to about 365 0C. Then the thing is glowing red. Also you see him place a plastic lid on his "shake and bake" container. In practice you would not do this, it would be the first thing to melt.

As for the voltage he uses and where to apply them , again a crude demo. Any voltage above 40V and you get a tingling in your fingers. For the size of container he was showing us (2.5 - 3 cm diameter) you would need a polarizing voltage of at least 200VDC.
you do not hold that with your fingers.

Also he mentioned the minerals had to be treated in some way. Does he mean treated before they go into the mix or as part of the
baking process? I am certain that the white powder you see him use in the mix is a combination of two or more ingredients.
These chemicals also need to have melting points below 300 0C.

Common cheap ,easy to get hold of, chemicals I am using at the moment are:

Borax  Na2B4o7(10H2O)
Caustic Soda   NaOH
Aluminium Sulphate   ( Alum)
Calcium Sulphate  (gypsom)

And of course the silicates of your choice.

Borax reduces the melting point of many substances and is used as a flux and produces a hard glassy lump when cooled.
Ideal for holding micro crystals in place when polarized. It is not a good conductor of electricty so you'll have to throw in a carrier
substance, one that does have free electrons available, so they will move under the influence of the polarized crystal charges.

The problem I am having trouble with is the caustic soda. It is needed to perform a chemical reaction with the quartz.
When SiO2 is reacted with caustic soda it produces Sodium Silicate. Na4O4Si ( theres those silicates again).
If reacted for a short while ie minutes, each quartz crystal gets a coating of sodium silicate. Sodium is a very good conductor of electricity.
So far I haven't been able to devise a way to neutralise the caustic action after baking. It creates a false voltage reading due to
electrolytice action and corrodes the electrodes.  Thats why I'm not ruling out Sodium Bicarbonte as a replacement.

Thats about as technical as I'll go for the moment. I am happy to share my results and formulas in the hope that other experimenters will do the same. Perhaps someone will come up with something I may have missed and find a better way.

The experiments continue.

I hope I haven't bored you with all of this.

All the best   Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: jeanna on January 01, 2008, 07:56:36 PM
Common cheap ,easy to get hold of, chemicals I am using at the moment are:

Borax  Na2B4o7(10H2O)
Caustic Soda   NaOH
Aluminium Sulphate   ( Alum)
Calcium Sulphate  (gypsom)

And of course the silicates of your choice.
.  Thats why I'm not ruling out Sodium Bicarbonte as a replacement.

Thats about as technical as I'll go for the moment. I am happy to share my results and formulas in the hope that other experimenters will do the same. Perhaps someone will come up with something I may have missed and find a better way.

The experiments continue.

I hope I haven't bored you with all of this.

All the best   Ian

Ian,
I am a biologist, not a chemist. I have been following many of the same subjects as those in this thread. I really appreciate that you will share your experiments with everyone. It is the cross-linking of ideas that will produce the results. It also has the effect of encouraging someone who has hit the wall of his own ideas. thanks. And NO I am NOT bored!

I gave the link before to geopolymers.org and as I mentioned I have been mixing the chemicals that I can find that might give me the reaction. All the reactions described in Prof. Davidovits' theory happen at warm air temperatures. He usually mentions 20 C.

He maintains the first chemical to use to alkalinize the mixture is sodium carbonate not sodium hydroxide. In the states it is called washing soda. (It  can be made from sodium bicarbonate by heating etc) Arm & Hammer makes it as a laundry booster.

It is too cold for me to continue with these experiments before spring. So, I won't e playing along til then. I thought you could use this info. Sodium carbonate.

jeanna
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: hansvonlieven on January 01, 2008, 09:18:49 PM
G'day Jeanna and all,

The link given in your earlier post for the Geopolymer Institute does not work.

Here is the correct link:  http://www.geopolymer.org/

Cheers

Hans von Lieven
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on January 07, 2008, 03:53:25 PM
Hi Guys, it's my first time here. I've been following this thread for quite awhile with great interest.
I have been experimenting with crystal cells for many years and had some success,( if you can call 20mV a success).
Like most of you here I have studied the same videos on John Hutchison and with respect to the one where you see him crushing
rocks and mixing them with white powder this was a mere demo of the proceedure.

Obviously he was showing us the crude basic steps not the exact method. Those rocks needed a lot more pounding.
Also I noticed a long time ago that there was no way in the world was he going to achieve a temperature above 250 - 300 degrees C
with his open air electric stove. I've tried it. If you build a kiln around it with fire bricks to prevent the surrounding air from cooling it,
you can get the temp up to about 365 0C. Then the thing is glowing red. Also you see him place a plastic lid on his "shake and bake" container. In practice you would not do this, it would be the first thing to melt.

Ian, thanks for joining the thread. Clearly you know what you're talking about. It's good to have you here :)

Indeed, the procedure Hutchison showed in that "invent this!" video was meant more as a demonstration of the steps involved than it was meant as an actual
"repicate my movements exactly" construction course. This is also why he doesn't mention exactly which "exotic silicates" and "special ingredients" he is mixing in, nor does he mention which metals he is using; he's not telling us exactly what to mix and how, he's just pointing us in a direction worth studying.

Also, you are right that his electric heater does not provide 250 degree plus temperatures, if only because his little "tin" can would probably melt in the process.
However, he never mentions that he would be heating it to such high temperatures either. He does not claim to be melting the silicates, which would need much higher temperatures. He claims he mixes several substances including various silicates, with some "special chemicals", and "bakes" them into a solid.
To me, that says he is talking about inducing a chemical reaction between the components of the mix.
And it is well possible to induce an endothermic chemical reaction with temperatures below 250 degrees celcius, even using the crude electric hotplate...


Quote
As for the voltage he uses and where to apply them , again a crude demo. Any voltage above 40V and you get a tingling in your fingers. For the size of container he was showing us (2.5 - 3 cm diameter) you would need a polarizing voltage of at least 200VDC.
you do not hold that with your fingers.
Heh... 200V static is no problemo. DC at respectable amperages, at 200V, probably a very bad idea.
But you must have done the fairly standard electrophysics experiment in high school (or whatever) where you get to touch a van de Graaf generator terminal, your hair stands on end completely, and you point your finger at the nearest student, to have a big spark jump and shock the student? Most good mansized vdG generators have very high voltages, easily 200V and upwards... Yet it's absolutely no problem to have that high charge accumulate on your body, or to have it conduct directly to the ground through you. As long as it's mostly just high voltage and little to no amperage at all, not much happens...
Now remember that hutchison has been experimenting with high voltages for decades and has multiple vdG generators and other types of hV generators in his appartment, I'd say it is well possible he is really touching the terminals...
That said, I do believe he is acting for the video, and is not in fact jolting the 'cell' with hV in the video. 

Quote
Also he mentioned the minerals had to be treated in some way. Does he mean treated before they go into the mix or as part of the
baking process? I am certain that the white powder you see him use in the mix is a combination of two or more ingredients.
These chemicals also need to have melting points below 300 0C.

I still think it's not the melting point that is important, but the temperature at which the chemicals start to react.
I find it interesting that you are certain of a combination of chemicals. Is this your own study and reasoning that led you to the chemicals you mention below, or did you find any mention of him using these?

Quote
Common cheap ,easy to get hold of, chemicals I am using at the moment are:

Borax  Na2B4o7(10H2O)
Caustic Soda   NaOH
Aluminium Sulphate   ( Alum)
Calcium Sulphate  (gypsom)

And of course the silicates of your choice.

Borax reduces the melting point of many substances and is used as a flux and produces a hard glassy lump when cooled.
Ideal for holding micro crystals in place when polarized. It is not a good conductor of electricty so you'll have to throw in a carrier
substance, one that does have free electrons available, so they will move under the influence of the polarized crystal charges.

The problem I am having trouble with is the caustic soda. It is needed to perform a chemical reaction with the quartz.
When SiO2 is reacted with caustic soda it produces Sodium Silicate. Na4O4Si ( theres those silicates again).
If reacted for a short while ie minutes, each quartz crystal gets a coating of sodium silicate. Sodium is a very good conductor of electricity.
So far I haven't been able to devise a way to neutralise the caustic action after baking. It creates a false voltage reading due to
electrolytice action and corrodes the electrodes.  Thats why I'm not ruling out Sodium Bicarbonte as a replacement.

Good to see you have worked on this and also realised the possibility of false voltage readings due to corrosion reactions.
I like your approach. Probably because it is not far from the approach I have been using. Maybe not exactly the same address, but along the same road nevertheless. ;)
A problem you probably encounter is the occurrance of water in the reaction product, which allows for a certain level of ongoing reaction between components, and which can easily give false voltage readings.
If I am right in suspecting that you are in fact quite a bit further along in your research than you care to divulge here at this time, you will probably need no less than a word to figure out the relations to your experiments, and related crystalline structures. And so, I will not bore you with too much blabla, and simply say this to see what your reaction may be: Tourmaline. ;)

Quote
Thats about as technical as I'll go for the moment. I am happy to share my results and formulas in the hope that other experimenters will do the same. Perhaps someone will come up with something I may have missed and find a better way.

The experiments continue.

I hope I haven't bored you with all of this.

Certainly not. This has been one of the most interesting posts on the subject I have read in a while. :)

Kind regards,
Koen
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on January 07, 2008, 06:27:25 PM
G'day Koen and all,
Thankyou for your kind welcome.

It would appear that we are following very similar lines of research. (Tourmaline)
So without further addo I'll give you the results of a benchmark test I did on January 5th.
The idea of doing this particular test was to give me a starting point for a new mix, whether it worked or not.
The following details are from my notes.

The ingredients:

2.75g              crushed clinker ( the same as John Hutchison uses)
11.35 g           crushed calcite
5.00g              crushed tourmaline (pink)
5.2g                silicon carbide  (220 grade grit, as used in stone polishing)
37.3g              sodium carbonate   ( thanks Jeanna )

All the above quantities were arbitary, stuff I had to hand at the time.

Using 2 stainless steel electrodes, the dry mix registered no electrical activity.

Added 20ml of water to make a paste and to evenly mix the ingredients. At this point there was a voltage of 120mV and the
reaction became endothermic ( got hot).

Heated mix on Low heat for 20 minutes .
45 minutes polarizing with 12.5 V while cooling.

Initial terminal voltage, after removal of the polarizing voltage, was 0.53 V
This voltage reduced to 0.125V and thats where it has stayed. The short circuit current was a pityful 2uA.

However if the container is warmed slightly, the voltage begins to rise. I believe this is because the tourmaline in the mix
exhibits its well known pyrovoltaic effect.
As I said I am using this test as a benchmark and at this time I do not consider it a success.
The next step is to find out which of the ingredients reacted with the Sodium Carbonate to produce the heat.

I've started to use the silcon carbide to try and increase the dielectric strength of the mix, similar to an electret. More testing needs to be done in this area.

At some point in the process the mix has to become fluid or fluid enough to allow crystal mobility for alighnment. In this test I used water. T T Townsend used wax. Camphor (moth balls) may give a similar result, who knows.

Any comments or suggestions will be greatly appreicated.
Thats it for now.
Kind regards  Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: jeanna on January 07, 2008, 07:47:21 PM
The ingredients:

2.75g              crushed clinker ( the same as John Hutchison uses)
11.35 g           crushed calcite
5.00g              crushed tourmaline (pink)
5.2g                silicon carbide  (220 grade grit, as used in stone polishing)
37.3g              sodium carbonate   ( thanks Jeanna )

The next step is to find out which of the ingredients reacted with the Sodium Carbonate to produce the heat.

I've started to use the silcon carbide to try and increase the dielectric strength of the mix, similar to an electret. More testing needs to be done in this area.

At some point in the process the mix has to become fluid or fluid enough to allow crystal mobility for alighnment

Any comments or suggestions will be greatly appreicated.
Thats it for now.
Kind regards  Ian
Hi Ian,
As I was hunting down information on sodium silicate last summer, I came across some information which may give you some leads. (It had nothing to do with electrical responses.)
One is that the extremely basic solution formed by the calcium carbonate in water will dissolve the silicates and they will precipitate when the pH of the solution gets too low (toward acid). This very high pH also dissolves other crystals that contain Si in their structure..

When looking for heat, I would start with the clinker because when you mix portland cement, which is burnt calcite with clinker, with just water the compound heats up. If it is fresh it can even boil!  Then the curing process continues to give off heat in a more gentle fashion.

Since acid will dissolve the calcite, I would add that later AFTER the Si based compounds have dissolved.

You have given me a good idea. I remember watching J Hutchison at his stove. Maybe applying heat is just a way to evaporate the liquid off the newly forming crystals.

Thank you,
jeanna
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on January 08, 2008, 01:29:22 PM
@ian: thanks for posting your experiment. Indeed, the increased output when heated appears to indicate pyroelectric effects, most likely due to the tourmaline in the mix. As you may know, different types of tourmaline react to different wavelengths of infrared, and I seem to recall that specifically green and blue/green tourmaline types are sensitive to a wide and fairly deep infrared spectrum. Perhaps using green tourmaline instead of the pink you used would give a higher output at normal "room" or "body" temperatures?
Also, your use of sodium carbide to increase the K, and subsequent remark "similar to an electret", are clearly parallel to TT Brown's approach... ;)
He did indeed use carnauba wax mixed with crushed or small petroelectric rocks in some of his experiments. That is clearly a carnauba wax electret, with pieces of the naturally occurring petroelectric rocks he found imbedded, in an attempt to increase the output and make the electret permanent.
I don't know how much of TT Brown's research into this you have read, but he also studied high K materials and found some of them to exhibit petrovoltaic effects; he very clearly mentions barium titanate as a very good (high K) dielectric, which also exhibits petrovoltaic effects. As you may know, Barium titanate is piezoelectric, dielectric, and also used in "ceramic" electrets. Possibly interesting in this respect is the fact that before barium titanate was used as piezo and dielectric, they often used quartz for the same purposes. Now quartz, however, is not usually seen as a material for use in electrets... But it might be that it can be used as such...
 
@jeanna: Yes, I believe you are right, and that it is indeed the acidic reaction that dissolves the silicate compounds to a point.
Also, your assertion that adding the calcium at a later point might allow for greater decomposition of these compounds seems correct to me. This would probably yield a more homogenous reaction product, in the end.
However, calcium does have a tendency to bind with active chemicals, and is not exactly known for its good conductivity, nor for any other spectacular properties in electrodynamics... Perhaps reducing the amount of calcium might increase the voltage yield?
I merely suggest this because my own experiments and my correspondance with other experimenters appear to indicate that the closer the cell composition gets to calcite formulae, the less output voltage there seems to be... Mind you, this was not in experiments using the exact same chemicals, so there is always a chance that it might have positive effects on this particular mix.

In my latest approach I am trying mixes with no calcium at all, and I have not used sodium carbonate much either... But I have heard of all kinds of things beng used in experimental mixes, from sodium carbonate through simple sodium or potassium chloride, to lithium oxide even...

In the context of the tourmaline, this might be an interesting read: http://www.cheniere.org/articles/Coincidence%20or%20Suppression%20of%20the%20Self-Powering%20Battery%202.doc
It is about the recently deceased mr de Geus, an originally Dutch inventor who had developed a tourmaline energy cell, and was allegedly on the verge of production and marketing of the device. Not much clear information on the cell composition though, unfortunately.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on January 09, 2008, 01:31:20 AM
G'Day all,

@Koen: Yes I am familiar with TT Browns work,I've been studying his lab journals (on and off) for a number of years.
He was a very innovative man and I don't think he was given the recognition he deserved. I've been experimenting with a variation
of his electrets, using silicon carbide and tourmaline bonded in polyurethane resin. 3000V across it while it is curing gives very
interesting results.
At the moment I'm working on marrying the two techniques of Brown and Hutchison to produce what would basically be a plastic battery. I find this an exciting field of investigation.

It would appear that the mix I made on January 5th has turned into a very sensitive thermometer. As the temp rises so to the voltage, when the temp drops below 10c the voltage reverses and goes negative. This confirms for me that it is the tourmaline
that is suppling the charge to the electrodes. It's now a case of improving the current density of the mix.

I would like to get my hands on some Barium Titanate but sourcing chemicals in Canberra is difficult these days so quartz will have to do for the moment.

@Jeanna:  Correct once again me dear. The clinker was the reactive ingredient.I can see now why John Hutchison does not need a lot of heat in his mixes. The hard work has already been done for him, the clinker he uses has already undergone extreme heat in its production. He just using and bonding the fused silicates. ( so what is his bonding agent????).

As always comments and suggestions welcome.

Kind regards  Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: jeanna on January 09, 2008, 02:59:34 AM
G'Day all,

@Koen: Yes I am familiar with TT Browns work,I've been studying his lab journals (on and off) for a number of years.
 @Jeanna: He just using and bonding the fused silicates. ( so what is his bonding agent????).

As always comments and suggestions welcome.

Kind regards  Ian


Ian.  My question to you is where are TTBrown's lab notes? Are they on the internet somewhere?

I think the answer to what the bonding agent is is the silicates themselves. They grow in the way of fibers through the mass of the stone. Calcium does this in the curing of cement if the silicates don't get there first.
I will find the exact page if needed, but I will describe what prof Davidovits claims has in the past been used to make artificial limestone or granite.
First add sodium carbonate to water. then add some clay. This dissolves the clay into Al and various silicates. Once these silicates are freed up from the chemistry of the clay, add some ground limestone or granite or whatever and let the water evaporate. In his example, the water evaporated in about 2 weeks at the temperature of a hot summer day.

He thought that he discovered a building material. (It is a building material that I was researching when I found his information.) Perhaps he gave the world something more interesting than a new building material.

I don't know if this is what J Hutchison is doing, of course, but it might be a clue to it. Professor Davidovits began publishing his theories in 1979. I will look up those pages if you can not find them. Please ask if you need them.

Thank you,

jeanna
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: jeanna on January 13, 2008, 10:12:11 PM
I just want to report about this little "stone" I made.

I made it by dissolving the clay (ala Prof Davidovits) with sodium carbonate. then I added some hydrated lime. I wanted crushed lime but it wasn't available, so I added sand just to see. Later I painted this with sodium silicate. I let it dry which took 2 weeks or so. It seemd a long time for something so little.

 If I stick the probes on either side of it. (It is only a pebble 1" x 1" x 1/4") I get 0.048VDC which cycles to 0 or even - 0.20vdc sometimes. I do not get this effect at all on a similar pebble that I did not paint with sodium silicate.BTW I am very careful not to touch the probes. (My own gsr might be higher than the reading. Sometimes it is 0.09 but usually it is 0.024-0.048vdc)

jeanna
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on January 14, 2008, 01:54:34 PM
interesting...
Can you please tell me what exact geopolymer formula/mix you used to make this stone?

And what form of sodium silicate did you use, exactly? Was it NaSiO2OH, or a sodium metasilicate of some type?
I ask because there's a lot of different types of sodium silicate compounds, and the most commonly available ones are metasilicates, or "simple" sodium silicate hydroxides. And of course these all react and also dry at different rates and diffeent manners, depending on the substance to which and the manner in which it is applied.

By the way, thanks for reminding me of the geopolymer approach; I knew of it but hadn't actually considered using it in this path of research... Might prove interesting after all. I've downloaded all of the pdfs Davidovits posted on his site, may try incorporating the geopolymer approach in experiments soon.

Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: jeanna on January 14, 2008, 07:22:33 PM
interesting...
Can you please tell me what exact geopolymer formula/mix you used to make this stone?

And what form of sodium silicate did you use, exactly? Was it NaSiO2OH, or a sodium metasilicate of some type?


First, I'll say the bottle is slim on information. It is sodium silicate (water glass) solution. 42 baume. I got it from the chemistry store in south carolina. I paid 10 for the stuff and 20 for the shipping.

Now, I can tell you from my notes what I did. I was looking for a building material (which this is not - it is very powdery as a structure, as though the clay lost all its stickyness, which I suspect it did.)

The original mix was this:
2 cups carbon-filtered water (or rain I don't remember)
1/6 cup sodium carbonate
1/4 cup green and red clay mixed (green says montmorollinite mg smetites etc the red only says kaolin)
mixed these til they liquified.
1 cup s-type lime. (this is a partially hydrated not yet calcium di-hydroxide available in washington state.)
to this I added 4 cups CaCO3 beads -I wanted ground limestone but all the store had was this stuff made from precipitated materials being reused from the processing of lime. It must have a lot of sulphur in it. It smelled like the perm my mom used to give herself in the 50's. I think that perm smell comes from sulphur. Anyway it was certainly not just CaCO3 .
my notes continue:
"after 4-5 days it is still wet but a goop is at the bottom. I brought up some goop and added sand to it & mixed. I made a dry mix like cement aprox 1 goop : 4 or 5 sterile play sand. This is to see if that goop will be a good binder for sand or other aggregate. Brought this (w/ sand) in house 11/18/07."
Later on I found a 19th century reference from Kuhlmann that he "silicatized" various things and got interesting results. Cyrano on the pyramid thread did a control of probes in salted moist sand and found voltage. I repeated his and also found voltage. That is when I broke off a piece of this - now dry- from the bottom of the jar and painted it with sodium silicate ("silicatized" it)

-------
If you search google for silicatize or kuhlmann you should be led to several digitized books indexed and free from google. (thanks google)
--------
Are you a chemist? I am not and I am not confident in my ability to accurately calculate weights from molar amounts. This is the reason I used approximate measuring tools like cups. I would like very much to be able to weigh out the proper amounts. Prof Davidovits' patents describe the amounts in moles. Are you able to help me with this?

I hope this clarifies what this petrovoltaic (e-pebble) is.

jeanna

 


 
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on January 17, 2008, 07:48:25 PM
G'day all,

Meet Timmy Tin Tart tray. This is made from a similar mix as the one I made on 5th January. The voltage you see has remained stable for 3 days nows. But as before ,the current is pretty weak.
(http://)
@jeanna: Do you think it might work better if I added some salmon fish oil  ;D ;D


Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: jeanna on January 17, 2008, 08:17:54 PM
G'day all,

Meet Timmy Tin Tart tray. This is made from a similar mix as the one I made on 5th January. The voltage you see has remained stable for 3 days nows. But as before ,the current is pretty weak.
Ian
Anyway that mix I made on Jan 5th is still sitting at 120mv even after dead shorting it for an hour this morning. Next stop, add the liquid silicates.
So, I am curious, did you add the liquid silicates? and if so, at what point in the process? (It makes cement and plasters sieze up very quickly if you add it in during the mixing. but that is without added heat.)
jeanna
PS I will remove the last part of the quote if you ask me to.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: neptune on January 17, 2008, 08:51:02 PM
@Koen1. You are obviously a very knowledgeable person in your field. I have been doing research on pyramids[see First electrical output from a pyramid]. Perhaps you could shed some light on the use of quartz sand [in conjunction with graphite and copper] in Thomas Tawoegers experiments. Note especially that these substances are used inside a coil of copper wire, and so presumably within a magnetic field. any comments would be much valued.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on January 17, 2008, 09:32:51 PM
G'day all,

@ jeanna:  I reground the leftovers from the first mix, this had already been through a baking process.
Next I made up some sodium silicate (from powder) into a thick syrup.

This was by no means a scientifc test just a "lets see what happens" type of thing.

To 2 teaspoons of NaSi03 I added the same amount of ground mix, to that , 2 tsp of calcium carbonate and 2 tsp of sodium carbonate.  Poured the thickening gloop (as you put it) into the tart tin.  Baked on hot plate (low heat) for 40 mins.

I now have a sort of electric biscuit.

So really I have combined two processess.  I'm not getting too excited about this one just yet, I'll let it mature for a few weeks and see if there is any residual chemical action.

Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on January 18, 2008, 01:07:23 AM
sorry guys, don't have much time to write at the moment... but will be back soon.

@jeanna: thanks for the story about your pebble, the waterglass, etc; made me read the davidovits files again :)
I also found out some more about the waterglass; it isn't commonly sold or used around here (any more), so I hadn't actually seen it around...
But it turns out it was very common about 40 years ago. It is indeed Sodium Silicate, but the thing about that "family" is that there's a lot of different sodium silicates. For waterglass, usually the Sodium Silicate formula of Na2SiO3 is given (on bottle labels and in books). But in fact, there are many other forms, such as Na4SiO4, Na6Si2O7, etcetera. Sodium Silicates absorb water very easily, and are often found with an x number of H2O molecules around; they dissolve in water. Various types of silicates contain some water in this way, and most of this water is bound through H- and OH- bridges to the silicate molecules. Na2SiO3 absorbs quite a lot of water, and is used in those little dehydration sachets that come in new shoe boxes, to keep them dry... (you know, the ones that always read "do not eat"). That form of 'sodium meta-silicate' is clearly different from the waterglass form. Although if you can make the waterglass dry in nice round balls, you might well get something nearly identical to those... In any case, the amount of water and other minerals, as well as the variation in exact molecules, makes for quite a range of possible versions of Sodium Silicate. 
Now, to get back to the mixing and reactions that tend to occur, all sand and most types of rock also contain quite a lot of SiO2.
Combining SiO2 (quartz/sand) and Na2CO3 (sodium carbonate) at high temperature causes them to react and form Si2O3 and CO2. So when you mix the two, you're actually creating waterglass, which will absorb water and can be baked dry. Perhaps we can use waterglass as a sort of binding agent, so the mix actually bakes into a nice cake...

@ian: thanks for posting your pic and information! :) Nice stuff.
May I ask what you use to mix the stuff in? Is it a ceramic vessel of some kind?
And does/did the "gloop" react in any way with the tin?
Indeed, best to leave it sit for a while, and see if there's still any of that nice voltage left by then.
But still, a very nice attempt at baking our much sought after electric "cookie" .  ;)

@neptune: I thought the Trawoeger pyramid used salt water in the sand? That sounds like an electrochemical effect to me...
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on January 18, 2008, 01:53:02 AM
G'Day again,

@ Koen1,  I mixed the paste in a plastic food container (take out).  As far as a reaction with tin goes, I suspect it did initially.  However once the "cookie" was baked it separated from the tin very easily. I used the base of the tin as the negative terminal.  Even if I sandwich the "cookie" between two stainless steel plates ie non dissimilar metals, I still read the same voltage.  I ran a ph test on the surface and found it was still very alkaline , ph 11.

This is why I'm not too excited about this one because while that ph level exists, galvanic reactions cannot be ruled out. The next step is to do the reaction again either with less NaSiO3 or with an acid as a neutralizer.

If I can get to stage of ph 7 and still get a voltage then I'll get excited  ;D

BTW   this "cookie" was not polarized by an external voltage,  it did it all by itself. 

Anyway this weekend I'll be making a new mix using "jeannacrete" LOL  ;D

All the best

Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: nightlife on January 19, 2008, 06:56:27 AM
Here is a sketch of a electric cookie idea.

Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on January 19, 2008, 11:13:31 AM
G'day All.

@nightlife:  Once we get the crystaline structure of the mix right your diagram would be a very efficient configuration
I would think.  Thanks.





Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on January 23, 2008, 01:45:17 PM
In relation to a discussion I had recently, this might be interesting.

I had a discussion about possible "energy emitting" rocks, with some friends.
At some point, one of them remarked that "energy emitting" rocks were all the fashion,
back in the 1600-1900s, and he remembered one that his grandpa had kept locked away in a small chest, and had shown him when he had been a small boy.
He described it as a small lump of rock resembling dirty ferrite mixed with feltspar and mica, but with the odd
characteristic of emitting a bright blueish white light continuously, while it sometimes seemed to "pulsate" a bit.
Recently he asked around the family but nobody seems to know where the rock went.

Obviously interested, I tried to get as much info from him as possible, while I recounted the story of Moray and his
mysterious "Swedish stone". That stone, which Moray used in his amplifying power circuits, had the odd characteristics of being a crystal and as such it could be used as a crystal radio detector element, and at the same time it amplified the radio signals with significant amounts of power, with no apparent energy source.
Later is was found that Morays stone probably contained light beta radioactive elements, as well as high intensity short halflife radioactive compounds. The (stimulated) beta- and electron-emissions were probably the source of the amplifying power, and the crystal structure with its inherent instabilities was probably why the detector functioned quite well.

Would replicating such a rock give us a cool new power source? No.
At least, not an efficient one, nor a very safe one.
Could we make a type of rock that is somewhat similar, and still outputs significant energy?
Yes. We can make a ceramic that contains a significant amount of beta-radioactive material.
Beta particles are electrons emitted from a beta-radioactive material. What we would in fact be making,
is a form of atomic battery. Those have been known for quite a long time.
In theory, on can simply take a certain amount of beta-radioactive material like Cesium, and coat this in an isolator.
Now put another layer of conductor around this, and the beta particles emitted by the Cesium will pass through the
isolator and end up in the conductor, where they behave just like ordinary electrons. This transfer causes to Cesium to lose one electron charge, thereby becoming relatively more positive, and the conductor to gain one elecgron charge, thereby becoming relatively negatively charged. The electric charge gained in the conductor will tend to move toward the positive "pole", in this case the Cesium material, so we need to connect the outer conductor layer to the Cesium via a wire, which will then show current.
For those interested in beta-batteries: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_battery.

It is not hard to conceive of a material that shows such beta-emission characteristics. It is also not difficult to imagine how such a material, if included in the composition of a crystalline oscillator material sensitive to specific frequencies, might produce regular bursts or pulses of radiation and/or electrical charge output. Now to combine a phosphoric substance to the crystalline matrix which allows these bursts of energy to be transformed into bursts or flashes of light, is also not too difficult to imagine.
I propose that the rock witnessed by this firend of mine was some such type of rock. A natural (beta-)radioactive phosphorescent crystal.

I also suggest this is not the way we want to proceed in order to replicate "electrical rocks", because beta batteries can be made in a more efficient manner, and because they still run out when the radioactivity starts to eb away. Do we want to make a betavoltaic battery that dies after its halflife has passed?
I'm not really looking to build that... Unless of course it's extremely cheap to build and can put out comparatively large amounts of power... But as far as I can figure, betaradioactive cesium is also not the cheapest material. ;)

Seems to me we'd better look at energies that are abundant and could be used and transformed into usefull forms of energy.
Off the top of my head that's things like random heat/temperature fluctuations (brownian motion), random electromagnetic fluctuations (as in radio/micro/gamma wave frequency background radiation), gravitational fluctuations, zero point energy fluctuations, and things like that.
One might think of using the resonant motions of the electrons in ferro material, "pushed" by a permanent ferrite magnet, to "drive" the oscillation of a chemically connected quartz matrix, which is in turn connected through a np-diode bridge rectifyer, and to a capacitor.
Of course it's just a rough 'scetch', but something like that might just work, and use the permanent magnet's constant electron rotations to produce an output.
One might also consider the possibility of mercury reacting heavily to slight fluctuations in temperature or incoming radiation, and the possibility to rectify any of those fluctuations again... But mercury is quite unhealthy so might not be the best plan to play with...

At the moment I am conducting some experiments with a few different types of Silicate, and Aluminium, in an attempt to produce
a Sialate-type compound, for geopolymer based tests of certain substance mixes.
I am planning to do some kiln experiments when I have access to a 1000+ degree kiln, which should be within the coming year.

Replicating one of Ians cookie-baking recipes might be an interesting little project in between. :)
Any additional comments on your cookie or on the above, Ian?

Kind regards,
Koen
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on January 23, 2008, 11:12:44 PM
G'Day all,

@Koen:  I have read about those glowing rocks before. I think they were discovered in central Europe.
I agree that some form of Beta emission could be responsible for their characteristics. Yes, Cesium may be hard to get but Americum is plentiful (smoke detectors). I like your idea of using high temperature ceramics, thats definately an area I would like to explore.


As far as the "cookie" goes it is still holding at .4V but this voltage tends to fluctuate. This is because
the mix is very hydroscopic. Atmospheric moisture affects the output so that alone infers a galvanic reaction.

The next one I built (2 days ago) I moved my attention to the electrodes. Probably the most important part of the whole thing.

This is my theory:  Working on the assumption that the finely crushed silicates bring into play the Casimir effect and polarization during crystalization aligns the charges, there is still a randomness of charge throughout the mix.
These charges need to be rectified. I believe this done using specialy prepared electrodes.

To test this I prepared a stip of mild steel (the stuff they tie round packing cases) and copper plated it in copper sulphate.  The copper coated strip was then heated to cherry red with a blow lamp.
The idea being to create a coating of copper oxide. Copper oxide is a p-type semiconductor.

I also added to the mix a small amout of colloidal chromium . This was added as a tracer as any net charge would make the bright yellow Cr move one way or the other.

The mix was hardened in the usual way and a polarizing voltage of 12v was applied. +Ve to the copper coated strip. The chromium migrated to this post.

The cell started off with a terminal voltage of 1.2V but slowly decayed when  a 10kohm resistor was placed across it. This was not to be unexpected.  After about 30 minutes the voltage on the terminals reversed polarity. That was what I was hoping for.  The + post became negative. With no load across it I get 150 mV. With the 10k ohm it holds at 37 mV. Sure, like before , not a great deal of power but
It looks like using the electrode as a rectifier may be the way to go.

Well thats the state of play at the moment.

Koen have you ever heard of any metal becoming radioactive in the discharge of a Tesla coil ?

Happy hunting

Catch you later

Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on January 24, 2008, 02:20:27 PM
Ian,

indeed Americium or similar substances used in smoke detectors may be used... Although many smoke detectors nowadays are "optical" and don't actually use any radioactive materials at all any more. And of course it will still only be an atomic battery of some type, so the output will drop dramatically as the atoms decay; for longer periods it would be best to use elements with a long halflife, and those are less easy to obtain again. But still, if one can get beta-emitting material cheaply, it might still be a good source of power... Quick grab from my memory banks, if I recall common beta emitters are strontium, mostly the Sr90 isotope, with a halflife of about 30 years (all other Sr isotopes range from a halflife of a couple of days to a few milliseconds and are thus not very usefull in a battery), cobalt 60 with a halflife of something like 5 years (but! this decays into nickel60 emitting 1 beta particle and 2 gamma photons, and the energy contained in the gamma photons is quite a bit more than that of the beta electron, so not extremely healthy to say the least), iodine 129 and 131 (both used in medicine) with halflives of 7 years and 8 days respectively, and tritium with a halflife of 12 years (but this is actually superheavy hydrogen and decays into helium3, which is of course a gas and will probably decrease functionality of any battery).
Of course other types of radiation emission can be used to generate electrical output as well, if we use the radiation to "knock loose" some of the electrons in the surrounding material, which would be quite similar to photovoltaic cells that use normal light to do the same. This however needs quite some shielding material to make sure the radiation doesn't damage living organisms around it, which would probably make such a battery too heavy for practical use, unless of course we build a miniature atomic battery, but then the output would be relatively small again.

As for the electrodes, yes, it seems to me that you may want to rectify the output. Now it doesn't really sound like your "cookie" is producing a clear wave output, but the output does seem to fluctuate somewhat...
Taking into account that tourmaline contains quite some SiO2 itself, and that SiO2 and other silicates are known to have oscillation frequencies directly related to their crystal structure and composition, one might reason that every piece of quartz inside the "cookie" is a tiny oscillating unit, and the "cookie" thus contains multiple tiny oscillators.
Since oscillators just "shuttle" charges "back and forth" and don't care about the direction in which they do so, the "push and pull" on these charges by the oscillator should average out to about zero. The pyroelectric qualities of the tourmaline scraps account for the clear temperature dependant output, but the direction in which the charges are finally "pushed" depends mostly on the relative p-n effect of regions inside the "cookie", I think.
So you could attach simple electrodes to the top and bottom of your "cookie", and attach a rectifying diode bridge to the electrodes, so that a capacitor connected to the diode bridge receives only positive charge on one plate and only negative on the other, then measure the voltage gain in the capacitor... (You know how such a rectifying diode bridge is made, right? To each elecrode, you attach two wires via diodes, one diode allowing the charge to flow toward the electrode, one diode allowing the charge to flow away from the electrode; then you connect both "outgoing" diodes to one terminal of the capacitor, and you connect both "ingoing" diodes to the other terminal. Voila, rectification of waves/fluctuations.)
But you can of course also turn the electrodes themselves into relatively positive and negative layers, indeed by using copper oxide as a p-layer, and so forth. I am not certain if this will rectify all of the fluctuations, but at least if will create a forward bias as long as the output voltage has the right polarisation.
Another possibility is to make the "cookie" in such a way that the relative p- and n- layers are contained within the "cookie" itself.
Obviously, these possibilities range top-down from easiest to hardest to actually implement.
Theoretically the application of hV during the cooling and solidifying stages should generate a p-n bias inside the material already, and up to a point one would expect some relative p-n shifting within the material, causing a slight internal pn rectification already...

A possible problem in ceramics is that, in certain ceramic materials, ions are still free (to a degree) to move through the material, and will do so in reaction to electrostatic and electrochemically induced forces. This may cause a ceramic to seemingly produce output during a certain period, then lose all output after that, because all movable ions have moved and the material is now electrically stable. In certain ceramics heat-driven cycles can occur, which move certain ions up and down a path, which can generate a direct electrical output. This is clearly an ongoing heat-driven electrochemical process, and if I recall correctly such processes are no more than 40% efficient... In other words, it does not look like the direction to persue.
The trick I think is to make a material that allows for a certain degree of free movement of charges, but that does limit this movement to a certain zone, effectively "pinning" the charges to that region, while retaining its crystalline structure. Relative p- and n- "layers" or "zones" should be present in this crystalline matrix, either causing a gradual shift from n- to p-layer over the entire "cookie", or alternating n- and p-layers throughout the entire "cookie", or mixed evenly though the entire "cookie" but with a clear polarisation applied (so all n- layers are oriented toward the positive electrode and all p- layers toward the negative electrode, even though there are no clear "layers" as such).
Additionaly, a path should be provided for electrons to follow, which leads them to and from the p- and n- zones...
What you see happening in the "cookie" you made, where the voltage seems to drop and flip polarity, then build up to a low value again, is to be expected of a material in which the relative p- and n- particles are shifted internally due to the applied electrostatic potential. First, the charges will follow the applied electric field, then when the field is
removed, residual effects of this electrostatic induction and distribution of charges can produce the relatively high output seen. If the material structure is stable enough, the p- and n- particles will remain in their shifted positions (to a degree again), and only when all residual charge has been removed from the material will you be able to see the effect of this p-n distribution as a form of pn-effect.

As for the Casimir effect, I must say Hutchisons mention of the effect surprised me, since I can't immediately determine how this effect could be used in any way to generate electrical ouput... Do you mention it merely because Hutchison does a number of times, or do you have a theory behind it?
The only thing I can think of where the Casimir effect might be usefull, is if we attach the two Casimir plates directly to two very sensitive pieces of piezoelectric material.
The two plates, attracted to eachother by zpe push, will "pull" on the piezo and this will generate a charge on the piezo surface. Of course, since Casimir effect only occurs at tiny seperation distances, the "pull" will be extremely small. Theoretically this Casimir force "pull" becomes exponentially stronger as the distance between the plates decreases. Obviously, the piezo material will have to be able to "stretch" far enough to allow this "pull" to be felt, but not too far as we want the plates to remain seperated from eachother. This is already quite difficult, and we must also remember that the plates need to be extremely flat (on the micro- and nanoscales) and parallel to eachother; needless to say this becomes more and more difficult the smaller we make such plates. Ok, so let's assume we managed to do all this, and the plates are attracted, and the piezo's "stretched" to the maximum. Now of course we want to harness the energy produced, so let's assume we have this setup connected to a simple diode bridge and a capacitor; the charges will flow from piezo surface to electrode (on the piezo) to diode (assuming we have tiny ultrasensitive diodes), to capacitor. Great. Now we have a situation with the Casimir plates closest together as our system will allow, and the maximum charges we can get from that Casimir force extracted through piezo's.
But now, the Casimir plates will stay where they are, because the Casimir force only "pushes" the plates together, and does not provide any mechanism for them to move apart again. To move them apart, we need to "pull" them apart by applying force again. We could apply that force by charging the piezo's oppositely, which will make the piezo's contract, and pull the plates apart. But that process is enthropic again, so the amount of energy we need to input into the piezo's to seperate the plates will be greater than the energy gained from the Casimir effect pulling the plates together...
I fail to see how energy could be extracted on the basis of that effect... That said, it may be worth studying the effect of frequency differences in respect to frequency shielding, which in a way is what happens in the Casimir effect. After all, if the abundance of energy at a certain frequency has a clearly observable effect, then the absence of energy at a specific frequency (or frequency range) may very well have similarly clear observable effects... Especially in the circumstance that said absent frequencies are normally present at relatively high intensities...
And of course perhaps there is more to the Casimir effect than meets the eye... Perhaps on the tiny scales of silicate platelets, the minute differences in chemical composition of these platelets may cause them to "feel" slightly different "pulls", or even cause the electrons inside them (or on their surfaces) to move about according to a certain frequency which is "seen" by both Casimir platelets, but not by the surrounding material, thereby generating an unknown "Casimir oscillation"... That might increase the overall oscillatory action of the material and might support electron flow mechanisms.
It is also possible that the tiny platelets act as tiny capacitor plates, the quartz as tiny oscillators, and the other elements as p- and n- material layers, thereby turning the entire "cookie" into a big heap of fairly randomly organised and minuscule LC+rectifyer circuits. Aligning those accoring to the right 'polarity' would allow for (part of) the resulting charges/currents to be directed to either "pole" of the "cookie". This sounds cool, but also seems to be the least likely interpretation. ;)
So you see, there are some possible views on how these "Casimir" 'platelets' may or may not be connected to energy generation in such a 'cell'. 
I'd like to hear your thoughts on this.

Ian, I have not heard of material becoming radioactive in a Tesla coil as such...
I have heard of unstable isotopes reacting to hV discharges by showing stimulated decay, and also of them fusing during such a discharge.
I suppose it may be possible to take a slightly unstable, metastable, or perhaps even truly stable particle and hit it with hV so hard that it gets knocked senseless and becomes unstable and emit radiation...
Why? Are you thinking of blasting some material with your TC in order to make them emit beta-particles?
If you want to do some hV experiments that may yield higher output, I can suggest a few... But they're totally unrelated to this thread though.

Kind regards,
Koen
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on January 25, 2008, 12:05:00 PM
Hi Koen and all,

I'll keep this brief cos I'm off to bed.

Yesterday I made another rock pie, (jeanna calls it a tart ). It's been with me all day at work with a meter connected across it. There it sat @ 0.431V. I put a 10k ohm load across it and it dropped to 33mV very quickly. It stayed that way for 1hr 10 min. When the load was removed, within seconds the voltage was up 0.420V. I repeated this a second time with the same result.

As with all batteries, if the terminal voltage drops sharply with a load then it indicates a high internal resistance. Measuring from + to -  read 6.2 Mohm  and from - to +  2.2 Mohm. So it would appear that a least I've achieved some semi conductor effect. I believe this is due to the conditioned electrode.

Still, small steps, as they say. Next stop, larger surface area and thinner substrate.

BTW this mix did not contain any tourmaline, just desert sand from Kalgoorlie Western Australia.
The sand is loaded with silicates and oxides. I also used 6000V to polarize it, and just to make sure, the pie was baked for 3 hours @ 300C to get rid of any water.

Koen thanks for your in depth explaination in your last post, most informative.

Kind regards  Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on January 29, 2008, 02:03:11 PM
Ian and Jeanna,

I have come to posess a copy of a German research paper by a dr. D.Staschewski titled "Eigenpotenziale als Wirkung latenter Raumenergie",
which contains some very interesting information. Roughly translated the title means "Self-potentials as function of latent Space energy" although "Raumenergie"
is perhaps better translated as "Cosmic energy".
Assuming you guys don't read German very well, I will see if I can translate the relevant sections.
In any case, dr. Staschewski includes a summary of T.T.Browns petrovoltaic effect research, as well as his own research and tests of several materials.
He did measurements using photo-resistors placed inside Orgone accumulators,tested several types of photo-resistor, did measurements on self-potentials in gypsum, in agate stones, and in proton-emission membranes, using various materials as electrodes and measured at different temperatures, considered and compared possible effects of outside interference or influence such as climatological circumstances, compared series and parallel linking of the tested materials, etc.
I must read the entire paper extensively again, and then I will attempt a more detailed review.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on January 30, 2008, 12:55:03 AM
Thanks Koen for sharing that information. I would be very interested in the types of results Dr Staschewski got with gypsum and what measuring equipement he used. I appreciate your time in translating it for us.

At this time, the "pie" is still going strong.  Repeated shortings has not decreased it's ability to return to it's 0.4 V output after a period of time. It does display daily fluctuations of +/-  0.02 V. I have now all but ruled out any galvanic effects. I am currently preparing some more electrodes for my next batch of "pies". Since my last post I have made 5 others with different mixes and electrode configurations but none of the results look very encouraging. I even made one out of doped terracotta modeling clay and pressed it into a beer bottle cap using a 5 cent peice as an electrode. Suprisingly after 4 days it is still puting out 0.38V . I was going to make another dozen more but after drinking all that beer just to get the tops,I was too drunk to proceed. ;D

I've also been analysing some of these reactions under my microscope. One can clearly see the effect of sodium carbonate solution on quartz grains. A crystaline coating of sodium silicate developes around each grain and eventually binds all the grains together. Trying the same experiment with a voltage applied across the solution did not show any form of crystal alignment. Also after a while atmospheric CO2 turned the excess sodium carbonate to white bi-carbonate and I could not see through it.
I'll try a get some photos of the crystals forming.

Heres an odd thing.  I mixed some borax with some sodium silicate solution to see if the borax would dissolve. It did and it remained a clear viscous fluid. I let it stand overnight and checked it in the morning. The idea of this was to somehow get some boron into the mix as a charge carrier.
The liquid was still clear and runny until I gave it a good shake and then it instantly turned into a stiff opaque gel. It was exothermic as well.  Koen or jeanna, any ideas?

Thats about it for now. I have a couple of days off so I'll be making some more mixes and repeating the borax experiment.

I'll let you all know what happens.

All the best

Ian

Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: jeanna on January 30, 2008, 02:28:27 AM
Quote
I've also been analysing some of these reactions under my microscope. One can clearly see the effect of sodium carbonate solution on quartz grains. A crystaline coating of sodium silicate developes around each grain and eventually binds all the grains together.
@Ian
Excellent, I would love to see a/some pics.
I have a microscope. I would like to know more about that.
You say crystals formed. was it a crystal then? I am thinking how powdery mine was when dry.
Did it ever become powdery?
Interesting. This is pretty much how Davidovits seems to describe how his rocks were formed. I wasn't seeing this. I assume you have the formula?
I am not a chemist. I remember in chemistry lab we made a supersaturated solution of something which stayed in liquid form until we struck the side of the container sharply. I suppose this is the reason you shook it?

Quote
did measurements on self-potentials in gypsum, in agate stones,
@Koen 1, I would be very interested in a more detailed review. Thank you.

Thank you, both
jeanna

Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: jeanna on January 30, 2008, 10:37:21 PM
@Ian,
I have been thinking about this siezing up of the solution. I will need to go back to the library. I read a book on chemistry for artists. In it there was some information about the crystalline structure of Silicon. There were 3 drawings.2 of tetrahedral-type structure and a third that was not tetrahedral but the elements were held together in tight strings but in non repeating form. But it was solid. I will be more specific, but it may take a few more days to get the book out from the library again.
jeanna
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on January 30, 2008, 11:31:36 PM
G'day all.

@jeanna:  Thanks for researching that extra bit of info, every bit counts. It would appear I've saved humanity again. That white stiff gel I made turns out to be a form of SOAP!  ;D ;D ;D :'(
It's the best silver cleaner. lol.

The batch of mix I made yesterday was very dissapointing, in fact of all the mixes I have made, this one returned the lowest voltage, 120mV. However I have everything well documented so I'll know what not to do next time.

Here are a couple of photos of silicon carbide in sodium carbonate solution. Sorry about the focus.
As you can see there is a crystal bridge between the darker SiC grains. I'm not sure how much of the bridge is made up of sodium silicate. But keep these in mind for when I post the quartz grain photos.
I'll be setting that up today.

see you soon

Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: jeanna on January 31, 2008, 12:07:44 AM
Ah soap! I guess it takes a real chemist to know that! ;D

I'm curious, Are those colors visible to your eye or are they some artifact of taking a picture into a microscope?

thank you for posting those photos
jeanna
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on February 01, 2008, 12:25:49 PM
g'day all,

jeanna, well spotted again. the colours around the crystals are visible , thats because I forgot to swing the polarizing filter out of the way  ::).

I made a small movie of the quartz/ NaSiO3 growth. It was very dynamic, unfortunately it's 200mb.
The "pie" is still sitting at 0.43V.
I'm working on a new formula for a mix but my hunch is towards electrode conditioning as the main factor. Nitridation. ( I think)

I'm going to the south coast tomorrow (Saturday) to collect a few kilos of pure quartz sand.
Might catch a few rays while I'm at it. ;D

All the best  Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: jeanna on February 01, 2008, 05:42:24 PM
the quartz/ NaSiO3 growth. It was very dynamic,
All the best  Ian
Ian,
I have been thinking about your soap. I think it is getting close to what I have been looking for in the building material. You saw the growth followed by solidification.
Thing is soap is a salt made from the base, water and oil. So, there is no oil here but oil is a polymer. And the polymer formed by the Si is a likely substitute. So, your soap is a geopolymer. (Maybe you already got it and this is what you meant by soap the other day. and I am a little slow  :D .) Did you record the 'recipe' of your soap? I hope so.
jeanna
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on February 01, 2008, 07:56:53 PM
@jeanna: lol :)

I think you may have a point here. Indeed, silicium polymers are the basic ingredient for the Davidovits geoplymer binders,
and indeed soap is generally a base+water+oil mix, somewhat similar to the composition of a salt. Since oils are polymers as well,
it is conceivable that you'd get a similar substance when we replace them with silicium polymers... On the other hand,
the chemical structure of "normal" (oil) polymers is quite different from the silicium polymers, both in structure and in chemical makeup...
Yet both soap base and most silicates are alkaline, so there we have a similarity again.

What I find particularly interesting is the sudden solidification and opacity of the substance after Ian shook it.
Your remark on loosely bound non-matrix silicon materials sounds likely... I believe I know what you're talking about, I think
I recall the same picture from some book on silicon chemistry. Must dig that book up again sometime.
However, I am not sure if this is of much direct value to our quest for a crystal energy cell...

@ian: Thanks for those pics! Can we download your 200mb quartz/Na2SiO3 growth movie somewhere?
Interesting remark about nitridation... Are you talking about "only" treating the electrodes this way,
or are you considering doing this to your new mix? (I ask because I have at some point considered
using nitrogen compounds in a mix to attempt to get rid of some excess oxygen and some other elements.
Since nitrogen is fairly inert to most chemicals, and has a very low boiling temp, I had hoped for the NO2
and NO gases to evaporate very quickly. The mix I had at that time did not respond as I had hoped, so
I dropped this approach.)

I just finished "cooking up" a nice new batch of silicate mixture, a fairly basic silicate solution which I had react
with several other elements, mostly sodium and a few very common metals, untill it turned into a paste. I've been
using small pieces of piping for containers, and have filled a few with this paste. Now I'm going to leave them to
solidify and dry for a while (anywhere between 1 to 4 weeks to ensure it's completely dry). Will test them all, and
if any test positve I'll post a pic. Unless you want to see one anyway, then I could post one for your enjoyment. ;)
Am also "cooking up" several variations of a substance with a similar base mix, but with different amounts of quartz
sand and/or metals in them. I took one fairly basic mix of mostly sodium silicate with quartz and "baked" it on relatively low heat
untill it was completely dry and hard. (lol yes, this was an attempt to imitate Hutchisons "shake 'n bake"/"dirt cheap"
video demonstration, without adding rock gravel.) I did this mostly to kill time while waiting for the other mixes to "cook",
but also because I just wanted to see how the quartz would bond with that specific silicate mix. The resultant "cookie"
looks very much like a sand cookie. At first it was quite solid but I guess there was still some water in it, because after a
day or two the thing became quite crumbly and broke in two. It is now very similar to sandstone, except that the structure is different,
and it is harder than sandstone, although rubbing the surface does loosen some of the "sand". There is absolutely zero voltage on this.
I must point out that I did not put any voltage on the material while it was "baking", nor afterward. (I did not have any equipment for this
in my workshop at the time, had taken my box of electrical thingys and whatsems back home for the weekend and didn't bring it.)
May try such a low heat "cookie" baking attempt again soon, but I need to remember to bring at least a capacitor, a battery and a multimeter... :)
But like I said, my focus at the moment is on my batches of silicate mixtures, and not so much on the "cookies". The fact that I currently do not have access to a kiln to actually bake high temperature ceramics may have something to do with that ;)

kind regards,
Koen
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: jeanna on February 01, 2008, 08:20:38 PM
Koen1,
I am wondering if you plan to add any "electrification" to any of the pipes during the time the contents are drying?
jeanna
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on February 02, 2008, 02:27:49 PM
Jeanna,

yes, I am indeed planning to apply a reatively high voltage to some of the pipes while solidifying.
I'm working on a mix comparison to determine which exact mix I'll subject to the electric field.

Also, I have come up with this idea that simply applying a voltage while solidifying may not
have entirely the desired effect; if a (mostly) dielectric substance is subjected to such a field,
the molecules will not budge and the material will remain dielectric. However, many materials
are dielectric after cooling and solidifying, but are ferroelectric while molten. This means their
'dielectric' molecules will polarise according to an electric field. When this is done to a material
that is dielectric when solid (like quartz for example), a bias can be created in the material,
which can cause (quasi-)permanent 'polarisation' and a surface potential. Generally this is what happens in electrets.
But, if we look at materials that allow a flow of electrons through them, we quickly find
semiconductor p-n layers. The division of relatively positive and negative 'pollution' particles throughout
the semiconductor also creates a bias in the n->p direction, and electrons flowing through the material
will "want" to move from n to p and not in the opposite direction.
If we now look at the division of these positive and negative charges in the material, and we assume
it is possible to have a material that is both dielectric and has p-n qualities, then lets consider how
we could make this... Assuming we have this mystery material, the easiest way to create a seperation
of charges in the material, as well as a polarisation of the 'dielectric' molecules, is to apply an electric
field during solidifying and cooling. However both the polaritation direction and the p-n division will be
in the same direction: all positive charges, both those of the polarised molecules and of the p-pollution
particles, will be attracted to the negative electrode, and of course this is reversed for the negative charges.
If we draw the desired electric fields, we will see that this does not seem to provide a path for electrons to
follow from the one (positive) surface to the other (negative) surface through the material, since the
p-n direction is in opposition to the desired flow.
So perhaps it would be a good idea to make such a 'polarised' block, then cut it into slices, and rearrange
the slices in such a way that the dielectric polarisation is still all in one direction, but the p-n division
is in opposition to that...
That cannot be done by merely applying an electric field during the cooling/solidifying phase, but one
would need to cut the block into slices and rearrange them manually. Such a charge seperation
to my knowledge does not occur in rocks naturally.
And that is assuming that we can get the slices to connect perfectly, so that conduction etc actually happens.

comments or reactions are appreciated. :)
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on February 04, 2008, 01:44:15 PM
G'day all.

@Koen:  You,ve highlighted a problem I have been considering for a while. That is the polarization of the mix against the natural polarization of a p-n junction.  This probably why the polarity on my mixes reverse when the voltage is removed. I have and experiment going at the moment where the polarizing electric field (6000V) is insulated from the mix by mylar insulators. I will continue with this configuration for another week or so to make sure the mix is dry.

For the nitidation of the negative electrode I will heat treat the copper ( cherry red ) and then quench it in ammonia. The fumes will be fun. ;D
Not sure whether it will work but it is worth a try.

The silicon/borax "soap" has hardend over the last couple of days and now I cant get the stuff out of the pot. I can dig bits out and it has the same consistancy of hard parrfin wax. It looks like a very suitable candidate for an electret.

To make the stuff I dissolved 229gm of sodium meta silicate in 250ml of hot water, this makes a viscous solution of sodium silicate.
I let that stand over night to cool. It gets a little thicker.  I then used 60ml of that stock solution and added 1/4 teaspoon of borax.
Stirred until dissolved. That stood over night and was still a clear fluid.  I then gave it a good vigorous shake( just for the hell of it) and then it turned into a solid.

Like yourself I have made a number of sand cookies and they became brittle and crumbly.

After another 12 hour short circuit the "pie" bounced back to 0.480V.  :)

More later

Ian.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on February 04, 2008, 01:50:34 PM
G'day all.

@Koen:  You,ve highlighted a problem I have been considering for a while. That is the polarization of the mix against the natural polarization of a p-n junction.  This probably why the polarity on my mixes reverse when the voltage is removed. I have and experiment going at the moment where the polarizing electric field (6000V) is insulated from the mix by mylar insulators. I will continue with this configuration for another week or so to make sure the mix is dry.

For the nitidation of the negative electrode I will heat treat the copper ( cherry red ) and then quench it in ammonia. The fumes will be fun. ;D
Not sure whether it will work but it is worth a try.

The silicon/borax "soap" has hardend over the last couple of days and now I cant get the stuff out of the pot. I can dig bits out and it has the same consistancy of hard parrfin wax. It looks like a very suitable candidate for an electret.

To make the stuff I dissolved 229gm of sodium meta silicate in 250ml of hot water, this makes a viscous solution of sodium silicate.
I let that stand over night to cool. It gets a little thicker.  I then used 60ml of that stock solution and added 1/4 teaspoon of borax.
Stirred until dissolved. That stood over night and was still a clear fluid.  I then gave it a good vigorous shake( just for the hell of it) and then it turned into a solid.

Like yourself I have made a number of sand cookies and they became brittle and crumbly.

After another 12 hour short circuit the "pie" bounced back to 0.480V.  :)

More later

Ian.

Didn't look like this post got through.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on February 06, 2008, 04:19:13 PM
Ian, Jeanna,

here's a partial translation of dr. Dieter Stachewski's paper "Eigenpotenziale als Wirkung latenter Raumenergie".
I have selected (parts of) the paragraphs covering Browns petrovoltaic effect, the gypsum, and the agate stones.
Other parts of his paper, covering the subject of orgon-accumulators and photoresistors in the search for self-potentialisation,
I will leave out (for now). Sumaries and addendums are inserted between [].

(from the paragraph "T.T.Browns Petrovoltaic-effekt":)
"... [summary: Brown in the years 1931-'33] systematically looked for the cause of extraordinary potentials, that occur specifically in heavy rock types.
He called this effect "petrovoltaic" [(stone voltage)], and suspected that these "self-potentials" are caused by rectification of gravitational cosmic radiation,
and especially in polarisable and specifically heavy dielectrics. ..."
"The measured petrovoltaic potentials incidentally reached 0,7 Volt. Therefor, Brown finally attempted to activate as electrets materials such as Tungsten-carbide
or Barium-titanate, embedded in a binding agent, by exposing the material to thermic treatement and very high direct current. In his 1976 patent application it is said,
that a battery made in such a way can produce electrical current forever ("indefinately").  Test results and other data are entirely unknown. [...]"
"Measurements at U.S. universities; During the period 1974-'78 research teams from five U.S. universities involved themselves with attempts to fully comprehend the petrovoltaic effect. The well planned experiments basically confirmed Browns experimental findings concerning the changes in potential with respect to its dependence of place and time, and a barely registerable potential decrease even when surrounded by massive shielding, such as inside mountain complexes [(probably means shielding from outside environment in the electrical sense)], and also sporadic outbursts of current. The most important find was the simultaneous occurrance of these "bursts" in widely seperated samples, which were seperated by a distance of 80 km, which seems to indicate a form of outside irradiation. The second aspect [(of Browns claims concerning the effect he measured)], which is the interaction between self-potential and electrical conductivity, was investigated and not found. It was found that the overall effect was not limited to crystalline materials. A clear conclusion as to this phenomenon was not drawn [(author literally writes "avoided")]."
"Authors own attempts; Some personal attempts using [plates of] Agate stone and specifically light weight materials such as wood, wool, gypsum, proton-emitting membranes (PEMs), and other dielectrics show, that the Brownian potentials can theoretically form in all polarisable materials, more or less ([or: to a higher or lower degree]). In practice this mostly meant activation by applying a higher starting voltage. Brown probably owes his discovery to the fact that his [original] Granite and lava-rocks had already been charged ("activated", to connect better with the previous sentence) by electrical currents inside the earth. In Geophysics nowadays it is routine to measure the self-potentials and conductivity of rock- and sediment layers. However, in the related literature ([of geophysics]) the Brown petrovoltaic effect does not occur. In geophysics literature, for example, "graphitisation" of minerals is postulated as explanation of the abnormal "metallic" conductivity that has been witnessed to occur in some rocks. The abnormal conductivity as well as the storage of electrical energy in active dielectrics are indications of self-potentials, and as such are of importance in order to understand the phenomena."

(from the paragraph on Gypsum:)
"Self-potentials in Gypsum; Autogenic potentials in freshly prepared building gypsum [...] are created easily for example due to the "Trigger-Effect" of a resistance measurement. [...] Gypsum filled plastic tubing is used, such as a plastic water hose coiled up with a 21 cm diameter and 3 to 4 windings, was used. The liquid gypsum paste was pushed ([pumped]) into the tubing using compressed air, which caused some of the gypsum to be pushed out the other end and caused some air bubbles in the gypsum. As electrodes ([stainless?]) steel screws were used. Some of these gypsum coils produced longer lasting voltages up to 300 mV. Here too there were undeninable fluctuations in potential, as well as a potential drop after introduction of the coil into the Orac ([Orgone Accumulator, which he used in the photoresistor tests he described right before this paragraph.]). Only halfway april next year did the potential of that coil start to rise, and finally reached an average potential of 100 mV [...]. ([note: connected diagrams show this specific gypsum coil + Orac experiment to have taken place in the beginning of december.]) Gypsum in plastic mold/encasing can hold its self-potential in air under normal circumstances for 1 to 2 years, although it does disappear as time progresses due to dehydration. When a plastic cover is removed, one will then find a completely dry gypsum."

(from the paragraph on Agate and PEMs:)
"Self-potentials in Agate stones and Proton-emission membranes.
Flat discs ([plates]) of Agate stone, cut and polished, 3 to 5 mm thick, prove to be carriers of self-potentials, insomuch as they allow themselves to be activated by induced direct current or atmospheric energies. In contact with metal foils they show the characteristics of a capacitor on the one hand and on the other hand they show characteristics of a high ohmic resistor ([a high electrical resistance]). After start activation by charging and bridging using a resistor reference ([?]), at first a rapid discharge of mostly the metal foils occurs, after which mostly a slowly decreasing voltage curve occurs. [a comparison referring to a diagram follows, basically showing how a 2.8 mm thick agate slice appears to react much more strongly to the juli summer heat and produce a significantly higher potential, than a slice of 5mm thick does. Both show the decreasing voltage curve, but the 2.8mm one shows a potential rise at some point, while the thicker one does not. The thin slice shows potentials ranging from 0,1 to 0,7 Volt, the thicker slice does not go higher than 0,3 Volt.] In this context it may be mentioned that commercial humidity sensors measure the change in capacitance, or at least in conductivity of hydrophile dielectrics, using porous electrodes to allow the absorption of watter from its surroundings. The author has found that fully covered ([=completely encased and isolated from the environment]) Agate stones function similarly, although not so much as room humidity sensors but rather as indicators of water "radiation" ([?]) in the atmosphere. [note: I don't really know what he means with water "radiation" in the atmosphere, nor why he connects his agate potential to water in the first place, although in his diagram it looks like the potential of some of his agate slices does indeed increase around days with significantly more rain.]
Contact influence; A constructively important aspect of Agate sample (cells) is the effect of the elctrode materials on the potential buildup. In agate cell ACH26 [(dr. Stachewski's own numbering system for his experiments)] copper and aluminium foil were used (Cu-Al), in cell ACH10, ACH9 and ACH15 gold leaf on copper foil and aluminium foil (Cu/Au-Al), and in ACH31 to 33 as well as ACH36 both electrodes were gold leaf on copper foil (Cu/Au-Cu/Au) were used. Based on the electrochemical potential series of the metals, certain electrodes can develop a potential difference of up to 3 Volt (Au-Al) and thus activate the crystal. However, in practice this support of self-potential is much, much smaller. The combination Cu-Al at the very first start of testing of ACH26 (without battery current) showed a very brief 180mV/10M, while the Cu/Au-Al contacts delivered 600 to 700 mV/10M only in two cases, and briefly at start [of measurement]. The samples ACH9 and ACH15 show the highest positions in [output] diagram 3b, but this may well be caused by the agate sample itself [and not necessarily by the electrode addition]. Over time the Cu-electrodes colour changes into black, and the Al-foil colour into white. Imprints of the quartz-containing ring structures of the agate are created. [I presume in the oxidation on the electrodes a similar pattern to that of the agate structure itself may be recognised.] Although oxidation of the contact electrodes increase electrical resistance, it is questionable if this contributes in any significant way to the high resistance of the cell, since agate has a very high internal resistance of its own already."
"Attempts with PEM-membranes;
Electrodes covered in gold leaf or galvaniccally onlaid gold were needed primarily for dual sided contacts of PEM-membranes, which contain sulfuric acid groups (SO3H) chemically bonded to Fluoropolymers (Teflon). As test objects we used dry foils of Nafion N127 (NAF1, -2) and N117 (Dupont de Nemours, USA), as well as several types of Fumapem (FUM1-3 from Fumatech GmbH, St. Ingbert) related to [/of the type] foils of 30 to 200 micrometer and partly in several layers up to 1mm thick total.
As with the agate simultaneous weather-related potential fluctuations occur in the PEM-membranes, in which they show a greater sensitivity to the air humidity levels. NAF1 was the smallest PEM-object with only 4 square cm of membrane between guilded nickel plates. The other membranes generally have surfaces of approx. 100 square cm. Not all probes of the same material build up self potentials. Often the potential of a membrane after activation would drop to a very low value, without ever rising again. One of such probes, a single sheet of N127 (64 sq. cm, 0,2mm thick) were submitted to a long term test with battery current. This probe clearly showed a stronger weather energy and maximal self potentials of probe NAF1 (also from N127) very distinct measurements, which calculated into ohms show a resistance drop in the probe of 10 Ohm maximum at 0,3 to 0,5 Ohm. [Unclear][...]"

This paragraph on PEMs continues some more, but since I doubt we are going to use any Teflon in our experiments I decided to cut it short. ;)
The paper also includes some more paragraphs on tests of outside influences on various types of probes, the typical self-recharge characteristics of some of the probes (generally they show periodic charge increase up to a certain level, then no increase. After discharges they recharge again, slowly, periodically, and in many cases depending on the air humidity and outside temperature. Interesting is the behaviour of some probes, which seem to react indeed to the presence of water, even when the probe materials themselves cannot come into contact with any of the water... theoretically nothing should happen because the water does not have any direct physical effect on the material.), some measurements when several of these probes were connected to eachother in series or parallel, and some speculation on "latent energy" and possible interactions with the human body.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: jeanna on February 06, 2008, 10:37:37 PM
Thank you Koen1 for translating this.
 lots to think about. Charging rocks with high voltage is way above any training I could call upon (except the biology training that says be careful). I am particularly intrigued about the humidity element. It is becomming a theme. hmm
thank you,
jeanna
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on February 06, 2008, 10:53:06 PM
G'day all,

Koen , many many thanks for the work you have put into the translation. There is alot of information in it that confirms many of our findings already.

Are there any more details on the size of the direct current used during polarization? I ask because I have found that a large current, greater than an amp, can be disruptive to the mix and almost distructive to the electrodes. I have had no success with cells that displayed electrolysis at the electrodes during polarization.

The idea that most polarizable materials will display self potential sits easy with me. The cells I made from loaded resin (high dielectric materials) still show voltage even after 4 years.

I know where to get some thin polished agate plates so next payday I'll be off to the rock shop ( again).

Interestingly, these agate slices have been dyed different colours although some are natural. Just a thought :  If a dye colour can be impregnated throughout the slice, what are the chances that a dopant of some kind could be inserted the same way?  Must find out about the dying process.

Thanks once again Koen, you have given me plenty to think about. (May the lower resistance be with you  ;D ;D)

Hi jeanna   ;)

catch you guys later.

Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: jeanna on February 06, 2008, 11:21:25 PM
  If a dye colour can be impregnated throughout the slice, what are the chances that a dopant of some kind could be inserted the same way?  Must find out about the dying process.
Ian
I'll bet it can.
This may help for starters. I have had some (My idea of some ie with lots of forward motion) experience with natural dyes. I doubt the agate dyes used were plant dyes, but the dyes used may be synthetic versions of plant dyes.
So, the dyes are a metal salt.
In dyeing, the fiber is first impregnated by a metal salt that adheres to the fiber on one side and to the dye on the other. then the dye is added. The dye which is also a salt combines with the metal salt and so the whole thing sticks molecularly to the fiber.
I wonder what your research will show.
jeanna
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on February 07, 2008, 12:25:45 AM
You're welcome guys, but thanks for the thanks.  ;)

@Ian: I cannot find any clear mention of how much current Staschewski applied to his probes.
I am also not entirely certain a high current is actually used... In some descriptions of electret building
for example they clearly state one should apply a high voltage, but no mention is made of actual current;
and like you said, a high amperage will cause electrochemical interactions and reactions in the material.
Even if no electrolysis occurs, charge carrying particles will move back and forth between electrodes
(if the medium allows them that much freedom of motion, and if the voltage is high enough), and this
probably does not have a positive effect on the internal structure of the final material. Or at least, I suppose
it doesn't. Except of course if the material matrix is rigid enough to keep all particles in place more or less,
yet allows electrons themselves to move through the matrix. But if you have that kind of material, let me know. ;)
In any case, I think polarisation of the material can be done without current, by applying an isolating layer between
the "charging" electrode and the material that is to be polarised. If a high voltage is applied to the plate/electrode,
and an opposing charge to the opposite electrode, the electric field between the plates should still polarise the material
but no actual current should flow. (depends on how high the voltage is, how thick the layer of material, and how
good the isolator.) However, i do think Staschewski applied a direct current to his probes, but I don't know how much.
I'll see if I can find out.
As for the agate stones, their output seems to depend very much on the humidity and temperature, according to dr. Staschewski's
diagrams. They clearly show how the voltage curve of various agate samples mimics both rises and drops in both those parameters
over the course of a couple of months. His remark that the agate voltage also reacts to outside humidity when it is entirely isolated
from the outside is interesting, though. I guess that's what he meant when he said they react to "water radiation in the atmosphere".
Dye is not exactly my specialty, but if it is possible to impregnate agate with dye I suppose one could indeed select dyes containing
the right p and n particles and use them as 'dopant'. Good idea. :)

@jeanna: indeed, the humidity thing is a theme in the paper; one if dr Staschewskis main goals seems to have been to study the
effects of various influences on his various samples. Some of his diagrams show material voltage per day, but also the temperature,
atmospheric pressure, amount of rainfall, sometimes even whether there was a thunderstorm or not. Some materials like the agate
stones show a clear sensitivity to the rainfall/humidity levels as well as the temperature outside, while the PEMs seem to show more
sensitivity to only the outside temperature, the gypsum samples seem to indicate a decline of voltage over time (probably due to drying
out gradually, as the author said), and very little to no direct reaction to outside temp nor humidity, and the wood samples he tested seem
to show a slow but steady increase of voltage to a max of around 100mV and apparently completely unrelated to the environmental influences.
Mind you, all samples are kept indoors at room temperature, around 24 degrees celcius, so the outside temperature and humidity
should not have any effect on the samples directly. Why some of the samples do react to these outside circumstances is quite a good question.
The author does mention, in another paragraph:
" [...] All of the studied materials had a common quality: they were all hydrophiles, in other words, either hygroscopic or containing some degree of
crystal- or 'pore'-water. [Many silicates contain a degree of water, including most types of rock. Some can absorb quite some water and release
it again when heated, others simply consist of a structure with water 'encased' in it. Fyi.] Liquid water with its dielectric contant of around 80 is a
material that can be polarised well. It is known that for example wood [and other materials] absorb water from the air humidity. [Author is hinting
toward the relation between water content, waters dielectric polarisation characteristic, and measured voltage in certain materials] Simple
measurements with a voltmeter show that wooden surfaces in the open, as well as for example wet cellar walls, depending on the circumstances,
can show charges up to 1 V for a short period of time. [...]"
... which does indeed seem to indicate that he considers water contained in various materials to play some kind of role in the voltage generation.
However, he does not really get back to the water later on in the paper, he focuses increasingly on the dry and isolated material samples, and
their voltages and recharge characteristics and the relation of those to outside circumsances. It seems the water content was something he pointed out,
but never really picked up again.

Meanwhile preliminary measurements on a 'fresh' cell variation I made seem to indicate around 500mV max voltage, which after having been shorted
seems to return to the full 500mV within about 10 minutes. It's not much but it's another little bit of positive stimulation to keep trying. ;D
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on February 07, 2008, 01:08:48 AM
Hi all,
@jeanna, thanks for the info on dyes. I'm on it.

The sensitivity of a completely isolated peice of agate to water I find fascinating, must explore that one. :)

For what it is worth, burying a solar panel to see if there is any effects from earth currents returns no voltage, no current and a stiff back through digging.  ;D

The" tuna can" cell I made 2 weeks ago and put on the shelf and forgot about has just measured 0.175V but the polarity has completely reversed  ??? Wonder how'd we go with a "rock lobster" ;D

Ok back to the lab Igor.

Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on February 07, 2008, 01:21:52 AM
Lol

that reversal is indeed interesting... could be a very late opposite polarisation reaction? You did put it there
so it could dry and you could make sure there were no electrochemical reactions going on inside, right?
So it may be that that has happened, and what you have now is the true polarised potential of the dry material?

lol burying your solar panel... where'd you get that idea? ;)
I have heard of this trick, sort of the opposite: you put a metal plate on your roof, then put one on (preferably in)
the ground (!) in your basement, and put a potted plant on that. Then you take another metal plate, suspend it
over the plant as if it were a lamp, and connect it to the plate on your roof usig a wire. It is claimed the plant will
grow as if it is receiving sunlight. I do not know if this is true, have not tested it nor do I know anyone who has.

Good luck with your rock lobster experiment. ;D
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on February 07, 2008, 02:01:01 AM
Afternoon all.

@Koen  The tuna cell was well away from any detectable electric influences as far as I can tell.
I put it aside to "mature" after it was baked. Initial voltage was -35mV, so I forgot about it. Now as I said it's reading +0.175V.  You may be right.


Many years ago I did the experiment with the metal plate on the roof and that attached to a screen above a grounded seed tray. All in the dark. It works, but only if the plate on the roof is insulated. I used 3 or 4 coats of clear varnish and coax for the cable. Thanks for reminding me, I have some notes on it somewhere.
Also using the same technique I had the roof cable attached to a coil in a container of water to charge it. I would drink the water and then come up with weird ideas like burying solar panels.. ;D ;D

But the water was also used to water plants with positive results.  At the same time I was running tests on plants with a GSR  gizmo I built. Same as Cleve Baxter. Very interesting results.

Charging rock mixes with radiant energy.. HHmmmm.

Onward and upward.

Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Nihilanth on February 07, 2008, 06:51:38 AM
I've been looking into creating a crystal cell (and other energy sources) myself when I stumbled upon this topic. I've made a list of materials that seem to be mentioned anywhere that rocks and electricity are mentioned, but I don't know that much about the materials or the way they could react. My biggest concerns are causing some kind of electrical fire, explosion, or creating some kind of toxic gas.

I'm also thinking of making a chart organizing what materials effect the voltage, but I don't want to get too in depth with the ratio of materials used, for now. Does anyone think it will negatively effect the voltage if I use equal amounts of each material? (Except water, which will stay constant.)

Also, I noticed that the creation of these cells for the most part lacks mechanical pressure, commonly found in the creation of natural crystals. Has anyone considered putting their pies under a press while cooling, in addition to giving it an electrical charge? If only to see the voltage difference it makes, and possibly make it less crumbly. :)
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on February 07, 2008, 07:52:18 AM
G'day Nihilanth,  welcome aboard.

It looks like you've read all the previous posts and although a number of chemicals have been mentioned the most dangerous part would probably be the people using them.  ;D

The idea being to produce a crystaline rock battery with common everyday substances. Kitchen chemistry if you like. As for the ratios of different chemicals to use, well thats research in progress for all of us I think.

Putting a cell under pressure while cooling may very well change it's characteristics, in fact I'm sure it would. How much pressure did you have in mind?

Please feel free to share any results you may get, Koen is very knowlegable about this subject and jeanna has an uncanny ability to throw in brilliant ideas from left field. :D

If you already haven't done so check out the researches of John Hutchison and Marcus Reid.
Have fun mixing and perhaps you'll end up like me, my kitchen looks like a rock shop. lol


Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on February 07, 2008, 02:26:58 PM
lol yeah, my workshop looks like a cross between a loopy bakers kitchen and
the room of an old cement mixer that went coocoo. There's bits of rock and
gravel, jars of sand, metal scraps, and other material powders, and various
types of solidified stains and puddles covering my work table and surrounding area.
:)

@Ian: it occurred to me that opal mining is a big thing in Australia, and
that opals are in fact a type of compound chalcedone, which is in fact
a fancy name for non-crystalline quartz. Agate stones are the layered
and nice looking variety of chalcedone, usually formed in hollows inside
rocks/seidiments, where the agate "grows" from the outside 'wall' of the
cavity toward the center. The consecutive layers of chalecedone then
tend to have different colours (and compositions), and this makes for
a nicely varied and layered agate stone.
Opals are basically rocks that consist of a great many tiny chalcedone
"balls"/"pellets", which give rise to the specific colour plays that are
so typical of opals. Ok, so that was my quick visit to rockville ;)
My point is this: if you are interested in and planning to get some
agate stones and use them in your experiments and studies,
you may want to take a look at opals too. Especially if you are
considering to grind/crush them into small pieces for incorporation into
your "cookies", the opal might be worth looking at...

@Nihilanth: hi there. Good to see there's more people interested in this stuff. :)
Yes, I think Ian put it right, the idea is to not get into too complex chemistry
so that we can basically do it "in the kitchen". Our current approaches seem to border
heavily on the ceramics side, and I don't think many people consider pottery
and clays to be very chemical per se. ;)
Although I have been doing some experiments with some more aggressive
chemicals, but I would advise not to do so unless you are certain you know what
you're doing. Chemical burns are not nice and to be avoided at all times.
For the most part, the household chemicals we use, and certainly the ones used
by Ian and Jeanna in their experiments, are not really dangerous and there
is very little chance of creating a chemical fire, toxic gas, or explosion.
But of course, it helps if you have some basic chemistry knowledge. ;)
As for the ratios, it all depends on which materials you are considering to mix.
I tend to use atomic/molar ratios and then calculate them into roughly the amount
of material in grams needed to perform the desired reaction, but since we're
very much in the experimental stages still the "estimating by feeling" approach
may work quite well. Simply adding a little bit more of the one and a little less of the
other, using educated guesses to determine the amounts, may work quite well
at this stage. Then, once you're confident you're getting some output that is
not a result of ongoing electrochemical reactions (usually when the compound has
has dried out completely), you can start to refine the mix to improve output.
I would like to see those lists/charts of yours some time, if I may. :)
As for the pressure idea, yes, I have considered that, but at present I do not have a
setup in which I can generate a high pressure and still be able to stirr, heat, and
otherwise work the material mix. Another idea is to perform the process at a
high temperature in an oxygen-free chamber, so that none of the materials
can oxidise excessively at that temperature, yet the silicium and other materials
do get hot enough to melt. That approach seems interesting too, but at present
is also not practically possible (in my case, at least). Have the plans for an argon
filled kiln lying around somewhere, but that will need to wait until I'm rich. ;)
At present I am focusing on the temperature range between room temp and a low
heat of maximum 200 degrees celcius, and using mainly easily obtainable
chemicals such as silicon and other silicates, some borax, some sodium carbonate,
some sand, some metal powder/scraps, and various other materials that I would
not advise to eat. Or inhale, for that matter. ;D
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Nihilanth on February 08, 2008, 04:53:53 AM
   I only really thought of adding a little additional weight to the pies. I don't exactly have anything lying around that I think would be useful to put some weight on a still-hot, cooling mixture. Maybe around thirty pounds or so, possibly just using a big vice or something. If only to test to see if it has an effect on the voltage. The oxygen-free chamber idea sounds interesting, although that argon kiln thing does seem a bit too expensive. This seems like more of the type of thing I'd try: http://www.instructables.com/id/make-a-manual-vacuum-pump-for-under-%2420-by-convert/ :P

   I've read plenty on John Hutchison and Marcus Reid, and similar experiments, I'm just getting back into experimenting with free energy after a fairly long hiatus which I spent researching hypnosis. I was thinking of adding aluminum to my mixture, and remembered aluminum reacts with water. I realized that was stupid, because aluminum foil wouldn't, but some of the other things I don't know the entire composition of might when mixed together. The fact that I don't know what will happen with some of the materials together seemed a tad unnerving, so I'm thinking of a few safety measures. I don't have any reasonably pure quartz, so I've thought of substituting it with silica gel from packets in shoes, I also thought of substituting Calcite with sidewalk chalk, maybe adding Bismuth, because Bismuth is awesome.  ;D

   A month or so ago, after watching the TechTV video of John Hutchison I noticed that adding water wasn't mentioned in the process. One of the cans he showed contained the crushed rocks he picked, and the other contained an unnamed white powder. I think that the "secret chemical" he used was Zeolite, it boils when heated rapidly and the air pockets in it can probably be filled with the other materials in the mixture. It's not exactly expensive, so I might try it out as a substitute for water. http://www.google.com/products?q=Zeolite+Cartridges

   Also thinking that there might be some possible casimir effect involved to get a decent voltage, and have been considering adding Mica flakes from an art supply store (it's got great cleavage ;)). It might be a while before I get all of the supplies I need, namely a high-voltage low-amperage DC power supply, so I thought I'd stop hogging some of my ideas. :P
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: jeanna on February 08, 2008, 05:48:52 AM
I just though I'd mention that a pressure canner will give you 20 lb pressure at sea level. ;)

I personally think the compartmentalization is part of the mechanism of producing voltage. Koen1 and Ian , you have both mentioned this along with the p-n boundary .

In answer to a question I was sent to a website about graphite and carbon having semiconductor properties. What I got from that site was that the slices of carbon are separate from each other in graphite and that seems to be the operative elemant in the ability to express voltage. It is a structure thing maybe more than chemical.

[I am getting tired, maybe not making sense]

In spite of tiredness I want to mention this about magnetism.

I know you know this...

Electricity doesn't always go INTO something. it travels around the skin. And if you really want to introduce charge into something you must induce it by sending a magnetic pulse into it. The magnetic pulse will make the electricity happen inside the skin.

Maybe this will spark (magnetize  ;D ;D )  those brilliant ideas.

Oh dear,

I need a nap, but it is almost time to go to sleep.........

cheers,
jeanna
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on February 08, 2008, 06:52:55 AM
G'Day all

@Nihilanth:  John Hutchision definately uses water in his mix, the water is then evapourated on his cook stove, but slow enough to allow his chemicals to crystalize. From what I can deduce this process takes about an hour. So he doesn't use a great deal of heat.
What are your thoughts on using bismuth. How do you think it may improve the mix ?

There are many sources of quartz, kids playground sand is ok, but as you have seen JH uses mainly
clinker. Clinker contains many silicates of Mg, Al, Fe and Si ect.

Zeolite, I like it. Also you mention mica. If you get some course granite and pound it into a powder you will get micron size flakes of mica along with all the other silicates. It's hard work crushing granite even with a 4 pound hammer and my left thumb doesn't like it much either  ;D

Don't be shy when it comes to throwing stuff into the mix, but always keep acurate notes. I have one mix going at the moment that has 2 aspirin in it and another (don't laugh) where I used urine as the "wetting" agent  ::) I'm going to call this one a P CELL  ;D

Here is a picture or two of the "pie" and another cold hardened cell that has got 6000V  charge trapped between the lower silica base and the upper solid crystal crust.  I gave me a mighty jolt when I tried to move it.

@jeanna: Yes you are spot on with the graphite, the structure is all important.

Thats about it for now.


See ya'll later
Ian

Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Nihilanth on February 08, 2008, 08:29:40 AM
I also thought of using carbon, but i didn't know about the whole semiconductive thing, I was thinking something more along the lines of a carbon nanotube formation... or something would happen. Until I know where I can find clinker, because I already have some silica gel (and don't have to pay for it), I'm going to try it first. As for Bismuth, I remember reading a few things about it having odd piezoelectrical properties, and I figured it might be worth adding it one time to see how it effects it. It's the main ingredient in Pepto-Bismol.

I've got a whole list of things I'm going to try, or want to try, but can't find a cheap source. I don't even really remember why for most of them.
Feldspar - Bon Ami Cleaning Powder
Silicon - Silica Gel
Aluminum - Aluminum foil
Calcite - Chalk
Carbon - Graphite
Zeolite - Aquarium Zeolite Cartridges
Borax
Table Salt
Epsom Salt
Rochelle Salt
Quinine - Tonic water
Teflon
Silicon Carbide - Waterproof Sandpaper Sheet
Soda Ash
Sodium hydroxide - Lye soap
Iodine
Zinc oxide - Zinc Oxide Ointment
Lanthanum -  Fosrenol chewable tablet
Polyvinyl Fluoride - Insulation Repair & Fabrication Tape
Lithium carbonate
Zirconium
Gallium
Germanium
Pyrite
Barium Titanate

Lead Monoxide
Tungsten carbide

Is there a reason for the aspirin? I know I'm not exactly a good source of explainations myself, but It sounds like you actually have a plan. The use of urine reminded me of something about herapathite, but I'm too tired and can't remember what it was.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on February 11, 2008, 12:58:21 PM
Hmmm... I like the Zeolite suggestion.
The only problem I have with it is that Zeolite is yet another one of those substances that is not
really one specific substance, but rather a whole family of variations of a substance.
The whole family of known variants consists of about 50 different chemical compounds.
So if you're talking about Zeolite, which exact Zeolite are you talking about?
(for some more info, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeolite )
I mean, just fyi, zeolite of unknown type is used in those aquarium cartridges Nihilanth suggested,
but zeolite is also a main ingredient in most laundry/washing powders, as well as the compound
used in kitty litter to capture the smells... And it is used in water decalcinators...

I'm going to try to get hold of some from a nearby pool and warer-cleaning company, their variant
is probably a form of zeolite known as Clinoptilolite, with specific chemical formula
(Na,K,Ca)2-3Al3(Al,Si)2Si13O36 (12 aq) or in other words (Na/K/Ca)2-3 + Al3(Al/Si)2 + 13 SiO2 + 12 H2O.
I'm hoping to be able to get a variation with as little K and Ca as possible, as that will connect better with
the mix I have at the moment, which already contains sodium silicate as well (from the waterglass, thanks Jeanna ;)).
It also contains quite a bit of silver sand which is quite pure quartz sand, so there's quite a bit of SiO2 in there already...
The Zeolite might just bind this together better than the boiling waterglass did... while not altering the mix composition
too much.
Indeed, adding mica is a good idea. But keep an eye on the exact type of mica used.
And here too, I feel I need to point out that Mica is a term used for a family of substances, which share
characterisitics. This family consists of several types of mica, generally classified as hard or brittle micas.
A quick grab of different mica types: Lepidolite (hard), Phlogopite, Biotite, Zinnwaldite, Clintonite (brittle), Muscovite,
Phengite. More types are known.
Some micas are very hard, others are quite brittle, and some are fine grained and occur in clays.
Some micas are found as relatively large sheets and/or layered rocks, and as scrap- and flake-mica. These latter two
are also common constituents in many rock and sediment types. Granite is one of the many rock types mica can be
found in. The most common variations of mica have a chemical composition akin to:
(Na/K/Ca)2 (Al/Mg/Fe)4-6 (Si/Al)8 O20 (OH/F)4. As you can see, the room for variation in that is already quite large.
But even if we ignore the fact that even more variations are possible with elements of Li, Ba, Rb, Cs, Cr, Mn, Ti, etc,
we can recognise some similarities... The Na/K/Ca base for example, which seems to be quite common in silicate compounds.

I'm not so sure about the quinine in Nihilanths list, but then again I'm a little doubful on the aspirin in Ians experiment too. :)
Taking a wee in your ceramic mix however is completely natural, of course. ;D lol
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on February 11, 2008, 06:00:50 PM
Here's a few pics of one of my most recent cells.
It's one of the cells containing 30-40% silver sand (quartz sand, mostly SiO2)
in a mix I was using before. Mainly a mix of several silicates,
mostly concentrated waterglass, with some other random silicate compounds
as well as some sludge from the previous mix, which was basically the same
but with several natural rock samples crused to powder and mixed in.
For comparison in both size and voltage I'll stick in a pic of a reading on a normal
alkaline 1.5 volt battery.
Enjoy. ;D

Kind regards,
Koen
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on February 12, 2008, 12:15:22 AM
G'day all,

@Koen : Way to go mate, that's a healthy looking voltage you got there. What is it's current output?
            So far the P Cell is mainly galvanic and it gives 1.01V @ 22mA but reduces very quickly down to about 2mA. We'll see what it does when it dries out. If ever you have seen aspirin crystals growing you will see they are very dynamic and have the ability to bind small particles together. The hope was that I could create a neutral barrier between the crushed silicates  and the alkali mix using the acidic properties of aspirin. Then use a polarizing voltage to set up the bias. I'm letting this one harden at room temp, I don't want to decompose any of the chemistry with heat. I'll let you know how it turns out.

At this time I'm running out of supplies and this is slowing me down. :(
Roll on next payday.

Koen thanks again for all the valuable info you have provided.

Anyway I'm off to crush my last bits of calcite and pyrites and I'll be looking in on old Stubblefield,
I've just realized something. Houston we have a connection  ;D

all the best   Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on February 12, 2008, 02:00:39 AM
Ian,

to be honest the current of that cell is a bit disappointing, but I need to do some more testing to be sure.
If I short it, the voltage drops to zero and only occasional fluctuations of max 4 mV can be seen, but when
I remove the short the voltage rebuilds in a few minutes time...
I'll test it some more, and try it with a proper little resistor instead of only a short.
Although there doesn't deem to be much amperage (as far as I've tested this one, which is not a lot ;)),
the voltage is at least getting somewhere. Now I'm going to try to raise the (semi)conductivity by adding
more metal (salts) and/or reducing the hydrogen and oxygen content of the silica mix...
I'm hoping an increased conductivity will increase amperage.

But of course this cell needs to be left alone in a quiet place for a while, shorted, to see if it still performs
the same after a month or so.

Ian, what equipment do you use to generate the high voltage you apply to your "cookies"?

see you around :)
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on February 12, 2008, 02:42:50 AM
Koen,

I bought a very powerful bug zapper, the ones that fry flies when they hit the mesh. It puts out 2.2Kv.
I'm not game enough to try and measure it's current.  Also I am using an air ionizer (6000V) and it;s current is only uA. But as I have found out ( the cell in the plastic tub) a mean charge accumulates at the boundary and when I tried to move it, it knocked be backwards. It had enough charge to jump the insulation on an electrical screwdriver. So far the damn thing is holding half my kitchen hostage  ;D ;D

It looks like we are getting very similar results ( respectable voltage but little current). A large surface area p-n junction is what we need I think.

Well Koen even if your cell won't power a motor (yet  ;)) it still looks bloody impressive.

Cheers
Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on February 19, 2008, 06:37:57 PM
Ian,

after spending an evening amusing myself by watching all Hutchison Cell related videos I know once more,
I want to ask you where you got the info that H uses clinker... I only know one video that shows him
demonstrate his "dirt cheap" method (the "invent this!" tv footage), and in that video I can't really see
the pebble he picks up very clearly. It seems to be a whiteish little rock, sort of the colour of pale concrete...
But in the video where he shows his large "artillery shell" sized cells, where he explains that those very large ones
only put out about 0,5V, he also shows what he refers to in the "invent this!" video as "the Blob":
a solidified puddle of silicate material with several fingertip-sized pieces of different rocks embedded in it.
Now that video has a better resolution, and the "blob" clearly contains several different types of rock.
He only pins the multimeter probe down on one specific spot though, so that could mean only that particular
rock or that specific region of the blob has voltage, and the rest doesn't or much lower... Or it could mean
he just happens to randomly stick his multimeter probe, and it has nothing to do with the rock at that location at all.

Oh, and when you say "clinker", you are talking about the "clinker" used in concrete and cement mixing, right?

Furthermore, in the "invent this!" footage, Hutchison can be seen crushing a few rocks into powder, then adding his "secret
chemicals", and then mixing them in an old newspaper. When he is busy crushing the rocks, you can see him crush a rock
that looks whiteish, probably the pebble we see him pick up on the street, but on the newspaper on his lap we can see what
looks like crushed dark (near black?) stone. I am not certain about this, but that's what it looks like on my screen.
Can anyone confirm the colour of the rocks he uses in that video?
Are they indeed whiteish and blackish rocks? Are they clinker types or are they more like mica?
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on February 19, 2008, 11:52:31 PM
hi Koen,

Same as you, I've watched those videos over and over. A closer look at the blob will reveal that some of the rocks are clinker. By coincidence the front garden bed and surround outside my local electronics shop has exactly the same stuff. Dark brown to rusty coloured clinker and greyish rocks of a similar nature. I think the reason he uses the clinker is because it contains many fused silicates, iron, aluminium, magnesium and good ol quartz. Also if you look closely at the blob you will see that it has been painted or sprayed in parts, I think with a conductive material, aluminium paint or something.. And the whole thing seems to be set in a block of plaster of paris. Listen to the clunck it makes when he puts it down.  Yes I believe the clinker is the same as that used in concrete.

JH makes a reference to exotic silicates when he picks up the white stone, that in itself is a massive clue. I spent most of last evening reading up on the different subclasses of silicates , I'll get you the web site shortly.  The thing I noticed was that the more "exotic" the silicate the greater the negative charge it had in the crystal structure, most were -3 and some at -5 . Enter pyrites, that sits at -4 along with many other common sulphides.
As you know the aluminium cans he puts his mix into have a valence charge of +3. I can see now why JH is looking for the more exotic silicates to get the greatest potential between the molecules.
This brings me to a question I was going to ask you. Or at least a point I'd like your thoughts on.

I've been using aluminium cans to make the cells and I get a voltage of some sort every time. But I suddenly realised that the Al cans would have been naturally coated with aluminium oxide, which is a darn good insulator. Have you ever prep'd your Al cans or tubes to get rid of the oxide? Doing that may increase our current output. :)

Back to his blob for a moment, I have seen 3 different videos of JH demonstrating his blob and each time he puts the prob on the same point and who knows what the other prob is attatched to because we never get to see the back of it, so I'm assumming it must be a metal plate embedded in the base.
As with all of JH's videos I think he is just giving us rough examples, as with the blob, I don't beleive that all the rocks in it actually do anything. Mostly for show.

His referrence to Thomas Moray is probably the most significant clue.  I think we both worked out pretty early on that the rock battery was a complexed form of diode or rectifier. I think what we are trying to achieve is a battery mix made up of millions of diodes all aligned the same way.
The voltage created by the silicates,peizo or petro ) and rectification by adjacent sulphides,pyrites or galena. All these were used in Morays experiments. Your charge diagrams ( which I think are spot on) may be the blue print for such a device.
I have had some success with making the anode a copper oxide junction.

At the moment I am crushing up as much iron pyrites as I can find ( hard work  ;D ).

I'll get back to you shortly Koen with that web address.


Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on February 20, 2008, 12:07:51 AM
Hi Koen

Try this web site.

http://www.galleries.com/minerals/silicate/

Very good info here.

Cheers

Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on February 20, 2008, 12:09:04 PM
Thanks for that info Ian, very usefull :)

Oh, and about the aluminium cans/tubes/cylinders;
Yes, in most cases I make very certain that there is no isolating layer on the inside of my cans/pipes.
Common aluminium cans, like RedBull cans for example, most often don't actually have an aluminium oxide
layer because aluminium if ingested in large enough quantities can lead to serious (infant) growth defects
and other poisonous phenomena, so they want to keep it out of the food chain as much as possible.
Most of the time some thin plastic type film is used on the inside of food/beverage cans. This is usually
quite a tought material, and I have sanded many an aluminium can down with sandpaper on the inside.
Also, pure aluminium pipes/tubes will indeed form an oxide layer in air, if they don't have an isolating layer.
This oxide film is usually extremely thin, just a couple of atoms thick. But it isolates the aluminium from the
air completely.
Often, such merely oxidised aluminium does not actually need to be treated before use. First of all because
no matter how often you sand down the oxide layer, another will form unless you sand it down in an argon
atmosphere or something like that, and most people don't have these lying around ;)
And second because the chemical reactions involved (consider sodium hydroxide, borax, sodium carbonate,
or simply boiling silicic acid) tend to easily overcome the low oxidation energy and simply absorb the oxide
and meld with it. But of course this depends a little on how much you want your mix to absorb aluminium...

In any case, yes I do often sand down the aluminium and other metal tubes/cans I use, especially if the can
is visibly or tangiably coated in some foreign material (on the inside). When I say "sand down", I mean I
remove that inner layer somehow, often using a corrosive material and actual hands-on scrubbing with coarse
material, or by applying a blowtorch and burning the plastic off. But in most cases simply using good sand
paper works fine.
I have been doing so ever since I found that can oatings can indeed have great influence on the chemical reactions
and electrical properties, during my early experiments.

hope that helps? ;)
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: sutra on February 26, 2008, 03:47:48 PM
Hi guys,
what you are achieving is pritty amazing....I'll start soon my experiments too...meanwhile have a look at this pages on how to make low temperature electro-conductive ceramics...it may help.

http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/wo.jsp?wo=1999018031&IA=WO1999018031&DISPLAY=DESC

cheers

Sutra :D

this is what they claim:

ELECTRO CONDUCTIVE CERAMIC COMPOSITION Normal ceramics based on aluminum oxide, silicon, dioxide, various clays and other alumosilicates, i. e., standard types of ceramic materials, have a very high electric resistance and practically do not conduct an electric current.

Only special type ceramic materials such as carbides of titanium, tungsten, molybdene, gafnium and some other metals, nitrides or silicides of some metals, barium titanate and some other compositions have a relatively low electric resistance. For the production of carbides, silicides or nitrides of metals with a high melting temperature there are needed high temperature furnaces, a special gaseous atmosphere (without oxygen and some other gases), and in many cases high pressures and also special precautions.

Preparation of various technical parts from this type of electroconductive ceramic is also very complicated.

For this reason prices of electroconductive ceramics are high and the use of them is restricted and their use for simple applications such as heating and home applications is very limite.

SUBJECT OF THE INVENTION The invention relates to the production of electro-conductive ceramics by using a configuration of graphite or other high-carbon content materials, such as carbon black, coke, etc., with soluble silicates, sodium fluoro-silicates and fillers such as: quartz, powdered sand, clays, fly ashes, talc, aluminum oxide, mineral carbonates, cements, etc.

These compositions react after compacting and treatment at temperatures of between 50?C to 200?C to obtain high strength ceramic materials with an eiectric resistance of less than 0.1 ohm/cm2 and up to 2000 mega ohm/cm2 and higher. As additives for better electrical properties can be used metal oxides of zinc (ZnO), manganese (MnO2), copper (CuO), titanium (TiO2), iron (Fe203, FeO, Fe304), cobalt (CoO, C02,03), etc. For good mechanical properties to the composition, before pressing water of about 5%-10% (weight) can be advantageously added. Heat treatments have to be for a sufficient time for the reaction (several hours) to take place.

The following examples are illustrative only.

The preferred content of carbon containing materials is about 18 to 30 weight-%; the silicates are used at a concentration of from about 15 to 40 weight-%, preferably 20 to 30 weight-%.

The fluorosilicates are used in a quantity of from about 15 to 40 weight-%.

The fillers are used in a quantity of from about 15 to 50 weight-% in powdered form, and preferably at 20 to 40 weight-%.

The concentration of the metal oxides is about 6 to 40 weight-%, and preferably 15 to 30 weight-%. When additives are used, these are used in a quantity of up to about 2 weight-%.

Examples Example No. 1: 22g Bentonite-powder of 20-30 micron, 50g sodium metasilicate, pentahydrate, powder <40 micron, 25g graphite powder &lt;10 micron, 6g potassium fluorosilicate, powder 10-40 micron, 18g zinc oxide, powder <40 micron, are mixed, pressed and dried in an oven with gradual temperature increase from 402C to 110?C. After cooling a ceramic with electro conductivity of 20 ohm/cm2 was obtained.

Example No. 2: 30g albite powder, 20-50 micron; 60g sodium silicate octahydrate powder of 150 micron, 30 g. coke powder, <50 micron; 20 g. manganese dioxide, powder-<60 micron, 8g. sodium fluorosilicate, powder >40 micron, 0.3 g Dow- fax (nonionic, surface active), 60g water are mixed together, pressed and dried in an oven with a gradual temperature increase from 50?C to 120pic for 8 hours. After cooling a ceramic with electroconductivity of 120 ohm/cm2 was obtained.

Example No. 3: 30g talc powder-<30 micron; 40g fly ash powder <20 micron; 45g sodium silicate powder, >60 micron; 10g sodium lauryl sulphate; 6g sodium fluorosilican powder->60 micron, 30g carbon black powder, <20 micron, titanium dioxide powder <30 micron are mixed together, pressed and heated during 9 hours with gradual temperature increase from 60?C to 120?C.

After cooling a ceramic with 68 ohm/cm2 was obtained.

Generally, depending on the nature of the compounds used, the pressure was from 200 kg/cm2 to 900 kg/cm2, and preferably the pressure was 400-600 kg/cm2. The obtained ceramics are used for various heating applications, such as floor heating, home heating, heating of greenhouses, chicken coups and cow sheds, houses, industrial drying and heating, etc. from 0?C to 250'C.

The mechanical strength of novel ceramic materials is generally between about 80kg/cm2 to 400 kg/cm2, in most cases between 180-250 kg/cm2.

The conductivity can be varied from <0.01 ohm/cm2 to >20 megahm/cm2.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on February 26, 2008, 06:57:12 PM
Hey thanks for that link, Sutra. :)
I already knew of this type of ceramic, but I didn't have this url yet.
Thanks!
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on February 26, 2008, 10:04:27 PM
G'Day all,

@Sutra:  Thanks for the info, food for thought  :)

Should have 50gms of Gallium by the end of the week, so I can go ahead with the electrode prepping theory.
Quick update on the "pie". It was shorted for 72 hours. Instantly came back to 0.25V and rose to 0.415V after 3 hours. At this time the voltage is still increasing at about 0.002V per hour. I expect it to settle at around 0.5V by the end of the day.

@jeanna: As our cement expert  ;D what do you think about Sutra's info?

Catch you all later.

Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: sutra on February 26, 2008, 11:06:00 PM
Hi,
reading your experiences, I had an idea...
to align properly the platlets of conductor (I'm gonna try with graphite) I want to use finely powdered (I'm a gem cutter) hematite which has its Ne?l temperature just about 250?C (is the temperature which am antimagnetic material turn paramagnetic) using a strong magnetic field (a magnet) or a coil of conductor around the pipe during crystallisation...

Did you ever try to crystallize your cookies avoiding a wet method?

I'll try to mix pure quartz dust, borax, graphite and hematite or rust and bake all at 400?C and let slowly cool in a magnetic field.....I'll let you know if some come out....

I wonder...

Ciao 
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on February 26, 2008, 11:36:48 PM
Hi Sutra,

All our "cookies" (well mine at least) used the wet method, this is because they had to crystalize in an aqueous solution. ie all the binding ingredients are water soluble.

When you make your cell ( good choice of ingredients) please keep a record of the ratios used. There are a million and one different combinations we can use, you may just find the right one. Yes please keep us posted  :)

400C , what will you be using to achieve that temperature?

Kind regards
Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on February 27, 2008, 02:31:11 AM
Hey cool, we've got a gem cutter with us  ;D

@Sutra, all of the mixes I make contain water, some very little, some more.
And until now I haven't heated my mixes any hotter than 180 degrees.
But then again, quite a few of my mixes contain chemical compounds that
react with eachother and the water facilitates this. Then I boil off and evaporate
out the rest, either in an oven or on a stove/heater.

Interesting experiment you've got planned there!
I can't wait to hear how it worked out. :)

Hey, by the way, do you (or anyone else?) have any tips on how to crush
rocks into powder? I've been using powdered or granular ingredients, but I'd
like to try some agate and tourmalin in the mix and I don't really have a
rock grinding machine lying around... I've tried a few simple ways like a large
pair of plyers, or just slammingthem with a hammer, but that doesn't work well...
Hmmm... just thought of something... "Will it blend?" ;D

cheers,
Koen
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on February 27, 2008, 03:12:36 AM
G'day all,

@Koen: I have a very efficient rock grinder..... me  ;D ;D,  I use a large pestle and mortar that I used to powder herbs in.
It's a bit time consuming but the end result is a fine powder. 0.5 micron particle size is easily achievable. However be careful when crushing pyrites, it has a tendancy to shatter into sharp micro shards so eye protection is advised.

The harder rocks get the hammer treatment then I finish them off in the bowl. ;D...... Don't use a food mixer, they don't like it, well at least mine didn't.

@Sutra: Do you know of any mixes that are combined and set in the dry state or with any other liquid? As Koen said, a certain amount of water is usually needed.

@jeanna:    ;D

see yer later

Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: jeanna on February 27, 2008, 07:14:52 AM
@jeanna: As our cement expert  ;D what do you think about Sutra's info?

Catch you all later.

Ian
Actually, I had 2 thoughts as I read this interesting post.
1- Sutra, Have you checked out the geopolymer.org site? If you have not, you may get some useful information, much ofwhich uses similar materials to what you are using. The main advantage to davidovits' methods (if you can work them out) is that they happen at the temperatures of a warm day.

2- Sutra has suggested something similar to what I mentioned a bit ago, but no one commented on which was that the use of a pulsed magnetic field (pulsed is important- not a permanent magnet) is capable of inducing electricity in something. I think this is a worthy thing to attempt, rather than to force the voltage directly into the material, why not try to induce it?

high voltage , short pulses.

jeanna
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on February 27, 2008, 09:45:32 AM
@Ian: I was thinking of getting a pressure canner or something of the sort,
and just "squeezing" them into smaller fragments. Then, when it's granular,
I could indeed try the mortar.

@Jeanna: Indeed, I was also thinking that the mix in that link sounds very
similar to several geopolymers. And not too different from some of the mix
recipes I worked out...
As for the high voltage and/or magnetic field pulses... Wouldn't you know,
I happen to have a 1kV pule generator which I'm planning to hook up
soon... ;D
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: sutra on February 27, 2008, 10:11:08 AM
Hi,
i think that the problem of a low amperage an voltage output should be due to a bad alignment of the conductive platlets.....crystallisation through evaporation garantee the structure but not the polarity's alignment.....That's the hard one.

400?C? the old, ancient method of heat up things.....fire...and a small bead of lead to check T....

will it work??  I'll see soon anough...

Ciao ;-)
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on February 27, 2008, 11:54:51 AM
Good morning or evening wherever you are.

@Sutra:  You are correct, crystalization of the mix does produce a very robust structure and if left to dry on it's own produces very low outputs. The process requires a polarizing voltage while the mix is crystalizing, to align the platelets. Simple in theory but there are limitations.

@ Koen: would you like to share your polarization diagrams, they illustrate very nicely the challenge we have.

In a round about way I'll use jeanna's idea of pulsing a mix but I'll do it with my Tesla coil, high voltage high frequency, and see if I can get some sort of polarization through a standing wave effect.
I'm pretty much tooled up to do this now.

What we need people, is a Ball Mill. Which reminds me, Sutra do you tumble stones?

It's late, and I'm buggered  ;D  so I'll catch you all later..

May all our endevours be POTENTIALLY rewarding  ;D ;D

Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: sutra on February 27, 2008, 12:39:15 PM
Yes, I do tumble stones....it takes weeks...
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: sutra on February 27, 2008, 02:21:16 PM
For all:

I may be wrong but my idea consists in using borax as rigid material in which embed microscopic quartz crystals sorrounded by graphite platlets orientated thanks to magnetically "impressed" iron oxides (hematite), through strong magnetic pulses . I want to try this building a cell big as bottle metal cork with several different mixtures, using see sand: washed and trated with muriatic acid to remove all little shells flakes (CaCO3 could react with Si and C forming CaSiO2 + CO2 and Fe metallic...just like what happens extracting pure iron from rocks).

I don't know other ways to crush rock than mortar and pestle unless you have a sintered diamond faceting lap at hands.... ;D
Try with a tumbler...it takes weeks, but it does the job completely alone...you'll have to sieve carefully the sludge to separate the grit..


For Ian: I thought of other non water based mixtures but i really think they wouldn't be as rigid as the right one shoud be...That's why I'm thinking of borax: it melts at low temperatures and it has a glass-like consistancy once cooled
.
As other rigid hardening mixtures an interesting one could be the bi-component resin (it is insulant though) used to fill the outdoor cable couplings...
But not including seriously high temepratures, nothing better popps in my head yet.

For Jenna: thanks for the indication

Talk to you soon guys.

Ciao

Sutra
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: jeanna on February 27, 2008, 05:45:19 PM
In a round about way I'll use jeanna's idea of pulsing a mix but I'll do it with my Tesla coil, high voltage high frequency, and see if I can get some sort of polarization through a standing wave effect.

Ian
Actually not so round about at all. I woke up this morning thinking of drawing a diagram for clarity. I learned about this when I got a cert for using the PAP-IMI machine, which is a machine that delivers a pulsed mag field to something (a person  ;) etc.) and that pulsed field induces a charge inside which would otherwise skim the surface.

I drew the diagram using a tesla coil, (because I knew you had one, Ian ) but I am sure anything that delivers the spark to the bolt will do. A wimhurst machine, maybe. (with the PAP-IMI it was just a spark produced by a powerful transformer using the mains.)

So, in words then,

The spark hits the bolt, then the charge and the magnetic field travel down the wire to the loop, from the loop the mag field is directed both up and down perpendicular to the plane of the loop. It returns to the system somehow, I better not guess that part ;D. but the next pulse comes with the next spark etc.

So, here is a drawing of that:

jeanna
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 27, 2008, 05:54:55 PM
@ All:

Some of you may already be doing this but, whenever I want to crush rocks, minerals or ceramics, I just take an old T-shirt and place the material (wrap it up) in the shirt.  I then beat it with a hammer and it breaks up nicely into whatever size, give or take, that I want.  Still wear eye protection but it keeps the shrapnel contained.  It will make a pretty fine dust if you keep working on it.  Then, as previously suggested, you can transfer the material to the mortar and pestle.  you don't lose much material this way.  Hope this helps some of you.  Interesting work over here.

Bill
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on February 27, 2008, 11:11:27 PM
G'day all,

@pirate: These experiments are costing me a fortune in T shirts, I do however have an old pair of the ex wifes knickers, they'll hold a couple of boulders   ;D ;D ;D

Settle down Ian. ::)

@Sutra: I am thinking about getting a stone tumbler.But instead of polishing stones, use it to crush minerals to the consistancy of talcum powder. To do this, instead of using grades of carborundum grit, use a number of hardened steel ball bearings. This is the principle of a ball mill. But as with tumbling stones it can be a slow process. However the end product is a consistently fine powder in the sub micron range.

Your proposed mix is well worth a try. As for the resin based cells, I made a number of these a while back using 220 grade silicon carbide grit to increase the dielectric value of the mix. As a potential power source they are no good. But they do make very stable high frequency capacitors.

@Koen: Sorry dude, I made an error. Some where I think I told you sodium carbonate has a melting point of 34C, what the hell was I thinking about. It is of course 871C  :)

Ok , time to go shopping and get some more wire.

See you later.

Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 27, 2008, 11:49:56 PM
@ Ian:

The ball mill is a good idea except, if you are milling quartz ( hardness of 7) or most ceramic (hardness of 9) the steel ball bearings would wear out and leave metal dust long before they abraded the harder materials.  We used aluminum oxide spheres which can be purchased for a reasonable amount.  That would mill just about anything you might find out in the field with the exception of diamond of course.

Bill
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on February 28, 2008, 12:54:46 AM
G'day all,

Bill you make a very good point there. Thanks. I'll have a re-think. I suppose what I should do is try it with the bearings and find out what amount of contamination they produce and if they can be removed magnetically.

Do you have any experience with ball milling?

All the best

Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 28, 2008, 01:40:01 AM
Ian:

Well, yes.  I was in the precision ceramic machining industry for over 18 years.  All of our machine tools were diamond equipped.  We did some ball milling but I am more familiar with it as that is how our materials were produced by our suppliers.  They have it down to a very scientific process in order to gain consistency such that their published material specs can be depended upon by design engineers.

Basically, what I know from my old geology days, and from my polishing experience in the ceramics business, is that a hard material will never be attacked or abraded by a softer one.  You could put steel balls in the mill for a thousand years and never even scratch the harder material.  Someone mentioned the rock tumbler.  Similar process and you will note they use media like al203, or silicon carbide, or diamond powder, or tin or iron oxide to "grind" and polish the softer material.  It is interesting to note that materials of the same hardness will abrade each other.  An example of this is the diamond.  To grind or polish diamonds, you need other diamonds.  Not a fast process when the materials are matched but, as in the case of the diamond, it is the only way it can be done.

These abrasive powders are readily available in a multitude of grit sizes and materials.  I would try to determine the hardness of the hardest material in the mix and choose a media that is much harder than that.  Again, quartz (silica) is 7, which is hard but soft compared to the media materials I mentioned above.  Glass is about 5.5 and most people think it is hard, which it is, but not really.  The hardness scale is a relative scale and you can see that quartz will readily scratch glass.  I hope this helps.

Bill
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Nihilanth on February 28, 2008, 06:28:06 AM
So it would seem that I'm not the only one who's thought of using pulsed magnetic fields. Jeez, the one day I don't check the site, it comes alive :P. Judging by the information provided by sutra about electro-conductive ceramic, I guess I was right in that adding mechanical pressure would help :) (even if it's more than I can provide).

If anyone could create a pulsing magnetic field with an adjustable frequency, maybe specific frequencies would have a better effect. I know it's horribly cliche, but I was thinking of the Schuman resonance when it came to mind.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on February 28, 2008, 11:49:38 AM
@Bill: Thanks for that ball-milling info. :)
I've done some searching but the cheapest ball mill I can find at a
second hand lab equipment shop still costs about 2000 Euros...
And that's without alumina balls.
That's quite a price for smashing some rocks, although of course it does
produce a more even and finer powder than the hammer and mortar
method...
The T-shirt approach is one I have tried, but in my experience I end
up with a totally ripped up T-shirt, rocks that are somewhat smaller and
some gravel and powder, but mostly still too large chunks of rock.
And because the shirt rips open I lose quite a lot of the finer dust
which very helpfully spreads itself over everything in a couple of meter
radius. I have tried other cloth types as well, and I have even packed
the rocks in a double cloth layer and then in a good layer of old magazines
to keep all the dust in. No such luck, the stuff keeps ripping.
Perhaps some of my harder rocks are simply too hard for this method?
Or maybe I need Kevlar T-shirts? ;)
I am going to try the hammer approach again, but this time with
metal plates sandwiching the rocks, and the lot wrapped in cloth;
with a little luck the metal will keep the cloth from ripping.

@Ian: Lol yeah, you did say 34C. Easily spotted that that could not be right. ;)
But still, thanks for pointing it out. Similarly, I think I told you Cobalt blue powder
is CoCl4? Well, obviously it is not, it is in fact CoAl2O4, Cobalt aluminate.
Don't know where I got the Cl from... then again, it was very late when I told you ;)

@Nihilanth: ah, the Schuman resonance, a golden oldie :) Yeah, why not? It's worth a try.
And pulsing magnetic and/or electric fields through the material as it is solidifying may
indeed have interesting effects. I'd say go for it! The more things we try, the greater chances
of stubling onto the ultimate cell. ;D

@Sutra: You said you're planning to use Hematite? If you're only using it because it
is an iron compound and may react to the magnetic field, then you might want to try
other iron oxides as well..? Quick review of what springs to mind: Hematite is the red variety
of iron oxide, Fe2O3. Other iron oxides are: grey/black iron oxide, "Wustite", FeO, and
Magnetite aka Lodestone, Fe3O4. All of them react to magnetic fields, as iron is the main
component and is ferromagnetic (duh!).
Just an idea. ;)
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: sutra on February 28, 2008, 03:47:09 PM
@ Koen1

Trying to crush quartz with steel is like trying to comb a porcupine....quartz WILL eat your bearings in no-time... :P you'll need CARBORUNDUM grit or somethink of much highier hardness that you'll have to separate at the end of the treatment...

 To crumble rocks, try heat' em nicely hot and drop'em in cold water....if they eill not burst in to shreds, at least will be damaged and crack enough to be easily crushed.

The choice of hematite is simply 'cause I had to cut some hematite gems lately and I' didn't clean yet the instruments...so I'm left with a nice quantity of fine hematite scrap dust.... ;D (I'm an unbelivably lazy man  ::)......  ;)) moreover, the hematite is paramagnetic only if heated over a certain temperature, I'm not interested in  keeping the magnetisation after full crystalline formation: I just want carbon platlets aligned.

ciao
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on February 29, 2008, 05:14:51 PM
Lol! ;D

well at least you're honest ;)
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: sutra on March 02, 2008, 09:43:26 PM
Hi all
I've experimented the following compound:

40% borax
30% trated sea sand (only HCl cleaned not crushed)
20% powdered graphite
10% Hematite dust

baked to cherry-red hot and swept through the centre of a powerful toroid magnet.

The amount of borax is not sufficient to bond compound together.

I've obtained only several little beads stuck to the iron base (bottle cork) big as much as the double of a needle tip. these beads gave 0.5 mV each before coming off the cork... I dont' know if to consider a good sign or not...I'll have to increase the amount of borax to achieve an hard glassy cell...

Second attempt, this time, as follows:

3 gr. sea sand
1 gr. white sugar (it is piezoelectric and melts at low T.)
0.5 gr graphite
0.2 gr Hematite

Mixed everyting, rod of copper inserted in the mix and melted in a aluminum foil cup, soldification in strong magnetic field.

The sugar made a very nice "sweet" the reading in 0.1 mV....nothing....the crystal is not conductive. I want to try increasing the components ratio compared to the sugar (expecially graphite and sand).

I've tried also to pass the pulse of a disposable camera flash unit several times during solidification....no change.

I wander if the sand I'm using is enough rich in quartz.

That's the actual status of my experiments so far... any comment?  ::)
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: jeanna on March 03, 2008, 12:04:06 AM
@sutra,
I am curious, How do you measure the voltage? Is the metal base of the cork on one side?

Quote
've obtained only several little beads stuck to the iron base (bottle cork) big as much as the double of a needle tip. these beads gave 0.5 mV each before coming off the cork.

What if you made a flat plate of this material then cut it up into layers? Would you get a series effect?

jeanna
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: sutra on March 03, 2008, 02:51:55 PM
Dear Jenna

several small beads were attached to the metal cork (the lid of any glass beer bottle) to measure the voltage, I just connected an electrode to the cork and the other one on the little bead....till these were adhering on the metal...

Before slicing the material I'll have to obtain a congruous and solid compound able to withstand the sawing....
...the amount of carbon in the borax mix i far too high, I think. The molten borax must be enough to inglobe the whole mixture forming a glassy compound just lika what I've obtained with the sugar....I'll have to see further what mix will work.

The sugar option is also tickling my immagination.... ;) what do you think?

Ciao ciao and thanks :D
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: jeanna on March 03, 2008, 07:51:22 PM
metal cork (the lid of any glass beer bottle)
Interesting. I think in the states a beer top has something that resembles sodium silicate in the place of cork. It might be a good substrate for someone here. (If it isn't the beer top I am sure the SoBe juice bottles use something like this)

Quote
Before slicing the material I'll have to obtain a congruous and solid compound able to withstand the sawing....
What I had in my mind was that you could make pancakes in discrete sizes and then a sort of voltaic pile by stacking layers of them. It may be too runny to work like that. It was what I wanted to do with the one I tried but it crumbled with only a little pressure from the probes.

sugar a sweet idea, but what about the ants?
Between you and Ian with his aspirin...
 ;D

keep up the good work,
jeanna
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on March 04, 2008, 11:10:38 PM
G'Day all,

Heres a quick reveiw of a mix I made on the 2nd march.

31.3gm         fine grain sand
15.5gm         fine iron pyrites dust
1.5gm           borax
2.0 gm          calcium carbonate
2.1gm           sodium carbonate
2.1gm           crushed  tourmaline

to all of this 15ml of concentrated sodium silicate was added and cooked.
A polarizing  voltage of 12 volts was applied for just over 3 hours while the mix was cooling.

A 330kohm resistor was place across the cell and the initial cell voltage was 1.337V

After 24 hours the voltage was 1.336V
The resistor was changed to 100kohm to draw more current.   1.317Volts @ 12.5 uA

I will leave this resistor in place until the cell voltage stablizes or reduces to zero. There is still a galvanic reaction going on until
the cell fully crystalizes. This may take a week or two.

I'll keep you posted.

Anyway my Gallium arrived yesterday. I bought 50gm but actually recieved 60gm.
Warning!   The Gallium melts in your hand just like a good lump of gallium should do. So I put it into a glass specimen bottle and waited for it to freeze. It didn't. So I put it in the fridge for 30 mins. Still didn't solidify.

So I put the bottle in the freezer for 30 mins. DONT.  The gallium solidified, expanded ( I should have known better)  and shattered the bottle. A nice little mess.

Soooooooo!  Koen lets see what mischief you can get up to with yours  ;D

@jeanna   I've actually been using the aspirin for the correct reasons this time  ;D

Catch you later

Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: sutra on March 05, 2008, 02:25:17 PM
@ Ian,

pretty cool result, dude!

@ All:

I've repeated the experiment of the cork with a much highier quantity of borax, highier temperature (melting point of borax)  and no graphite at all: in this the fire helped me with a couple of nice chunks of charred coals (unwanted) and ash embedded in the cell...

The cell was ready in about 10 minutes...

Results?....

Yeah, 50 mV sandwiched between the metal cork and one chunk of charred coal...the quantity of materials used are really small... :D the voltage results to be very unstable....dropping fast,  but rising up very fast as the tester electrodes are removed...
Solidification occurred in strong magnetic field, only.

Next test will be done with a pencil graphite core as electrode, adding some wood ashes to the initial mix, hematite, the usual cork (It would be better something deeper as the borax tend to expand too much during first contact with heat...) and a better stirring... ::)

I'll keep you posted...

Ciao  ;D
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on March 07, 2008, 01:49:14 PM
G'day all,

Today I thought I would try something different. Instead of using water as the fluid in the mix I used molten sulphur.

I won't go into the specific ingedients in this mix, suffice to say there was enough sulphur to soak them all in.
The sodium silicate I did use was anhydrate.

Once the mix was molten ( around 140C ) it was poured into an aluminium tube, a copper electrode stuffed down the middle and 2KV
applied across the cell. That was fine.

However a spark of any description has the ability to ignite molten sulphur, and it did !
So now my kitchen smells like the gates of hell to wit a friend of mind commented that I should get used to it. ;D

Anyway once the flames were out I put the cell in a plastic container of sand, one to support it and two to slow the cooling process.
The cell was polarized for 20 minutes with 2KV.
After 20 mins I disconnected the HV and discovered another interesting fact.

Dry sand in an insulated container makes a very good capacitor, good enough to hold 2KV. Pulling the cell out of the sand was a shocking experience.  ;D

Anyway the cell is a good capacitor and will hold a charge but does not operate as a current source.

So although this was a spectacular failure it was also another step on the path to success  :)

I seem to remember something about clay pots and sand as a power source, can anyone please jog my memory.

catch you later

Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on March 07, 2008, 04:36:01 PM
G'day all,

Today I thought I would try something different. Instead of using water as the fluid in the mix I used molten sulphur.
O-oh... I feel something coming... ;)

Quote
I won't go into the specific ingedients in this mix, suffice to say there was enough sulphur to soak them all in.
The sodium silicate I did use was anhydrate.

Once the mix was molten ( around 140C ) it was poured into an aluminium tube, a copper electrode stuffed down the middle and 2KV
applied across the cell. That was fine.

However a spark of any description has the ability to ignite molten sulphur, and it did !
Lol I just knew it! ;D
Nothing nasty happened to you, I hope??

Quote
So now my kitchen smells like the gates of hell to wit a friend of mind commented that I should get used to it. ;D
Rofl funny friends you have :)

One of my friends, when we talk about my cell experiments and related chemical tinkering, often asks me
"so, have you been visited by any demons lately?"
which is really funny if you know what he's talking about:
Back in medieval times, alchemists would regularly be found dead in their workshops. Their doors locked,
no footsteps around, yet the alchemist would be found very lifeless behind their alchemical and occult
tools, and in almost all cases a horrible stench of sulphur would be smelled.
Of course, it was very clear to everyone what had killed the alchemist: it must have been demons, summoned
by the alchemist and his unholy occult magical arts. After all, everyone could smell the foul stench of
sulphur, ammonia, or whatever nasty chemical, and in those times that was immediately associated with demons.
lol.
So, Ian, your first demon visit. ;D

Quote
Anyway once the flames were out I put the cell in a plastic container of sand, one to support it and two to slow the cooling process.
The cell was polarized for 20 minutes with 2KV.
After 20 mins I disconnected the HV and discovered another interesting fact.

Dry sand in an insulated container makes a very good capacitor, good enough to hold 2KV. Pulling the cell out of the sand was a shocking experience.  ;D

Anyway the cell is a good capacitor and will hold a charge but does not operate as a current source.
Hmm too bad... Then again, sulphur was used as isolator in the olden days, so not terribly surprising...


Quote
So although this was a spectacular failure it was also another step on the path to success  :)
That's the spirit! :)

Quote
I seem to remember something about clay pots and sand as a power source, can anyone please jog my memory.
Well nothing springs to mind... I'd like to hear about that...

kind regards,
Koen
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: dcarlson on March 09, 2008, 04:14:40 AM
http://tvufo.tripod.com/id10.html

10. MANUFACTURED METALS MILLIONS OF YEARS OLD
For the past three decades miners at the Wonderstone Silver Mine near Ottosdal in the Western Transvaal, South Africa, have been extracting out of deep rock several strange metallic spheroids. So far at least 200 have been found. In 1979, several were closely examined by J.R. McIver, professor of geology at the University of Witwaterstand in Johannesburg, and geologist professor Andries Bisschoff of Potsshefstroom University.
The metallic spheroids look like flattened globes, averaging 1 to 4 inches in diameter, and their exteriors usually are colored steel blue with a reddish reflection, and embedded in the metal are tiny flecks of white fibers. They are made of a nickel-steel alloy which does not occur naturally, and is of a composition that rules them out, being of meteoric origin. Some have only a thin shell about a quarter of an inch thick, and when broken open are found filled with a strange spongy material that disintegrated into dust on contact with the air.
What makes all this very remarkable is that the spheroids were mined out of a layer of pyrophyllite rock, dated both geologically and by the various radio-isotope dating techniques as being at least 2.8 to 3 billion years old.
Adding mystery to mystery, Roelf Marx, curator of the South African Klerksdorp Museum, has discovered that the spheroid he has on exhibit slowly rotates on its axis by its own power, while locked in its display case and free of outside vibrations. There may thus be an energy extant within these spheroids still operating after three eons of time.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on March 11, 2008, 11:17:37 AM
G'day all,

@dcarlson:  Thanks for the info. I'm sure theres more to it, somewhere.

@ Koen:  Mate, lost the contents of my inbox, can you please resend.  ;D


Now about that sulphur cell.  It regenerates a voltage (200mV or so), bugger all current, after repeated shortings. One thing I do know for sure, this baby is not galvanic.
I'm going to make another one. I know..shock horror and all that, but someone has to do it  ;D ;D

Oh I haven't told you about the kitty litter yet  ;D
 
Jurys out on the magnetic polarization at the moment.

more soon

Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: sutra on March 11, 2008, 10:59:44 PM
Hi guys,

look what I've found here...

http://pubs.acs.org/cgi-bin/abstract.cgi/cmatex/2004/16/i25/abs/cm048804r.html

@ Ian
if you want to insert sulphur into the mix...why don't you try to use sodium dithionate? It should be easier....

Ciao

Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on March 11, 2008, 11:58:58 PM
G'day all,

@Sutra:  Very interesting link, we may be producing something similar in our mixes without knowing it.

The reason for using elemental sulphur ( instead of any of it's compounds ), was to create , as best as possible, a water free mix. The only water available was  the 5(H2O ) in the sodium silicate. Not enough to create an alkaline electrolyte between the copper and aluminium electrodes after baking.

This was a test cell to investigate how a recrystallized sulphur matrix reacted with our usual mix ingredients. Not unexpectedly the internal resistance of the cell is over 10Mohm. However after repeated discharges the cell developes a potential of around 200mV . I feel that a galvanic reaction is most unlikely in this case.

Any comments on this  would be welcome.

Regards   Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on March 12, 2008, 12:21:42 PM
Hi everyone :)

Ian, I agree with your reasoning that the use of sulphur would minimise
any chance of galvanic reaction.
The 10Mohm is not really very surprising, I have measured resistance in
some of my cells around the 10Mohm as well.
The thing is that the resistance is not very straightforward in the type
of material we want to make; we are aiming for a material that somehow
"pumps" electrons through itself, from one electrode to the other.
That would seem to imply a high resistance in one direction, and
a low resistance in the other direction, which gives rise to a bias in
charge accumulation.
And that appears to mean that we should be able to measure a significantly
lower resistance in that opposite direction....
But I haven't been able to measure any clear differences in resistance when I
reverse my multimeter probes for example, so I am not sure what is going on.
It may be that this bias is very localised and temporary withing the material
matrix, and therefore not "visible" to the meter probes that "only" measure
the electrode potentials and the relative current flow obstruction between the
two, which is of course different on that macroscale than it may be on the
microscale of the material martix.

As for my recent attempts;
I have made a couple of cells with various ingredients, which have been exposed to
a low voltage DC (9V) during cooling and solidification.
The substance mix I used had a homemade sodium silicate base, which was made
by boiling fine white quartz sand with water at a heat between 120 and 180 degrees C,
then adding NaOH, and allowing those compounds to react with eachother.
If you have used the exact correct amounts the mix should form sodium silicate
with water, and if you used too little NaOH it will form sodium silicate with silicic acid
which when it cools turns into sodium silicate with water and sand.
Well, I used that sodium silicate, and added some more sand to get a mix
of 60 to 65% sodium silicate and 35 to 40% sand. Added a little bit of water
to ease stirring of the mix while heating it to around 100 degrees.
I added two different combinations of ingredients:
1) a mix of titanium dioxide, ferrous oxide, cobalt oxide, pure aluminium powder,
pure copper powder and kaolin in proportions 2:2:2:1:1:2
2) a mix of chromium oxide, manganese oxide, and the above, in proportions
3:3:2:2:2:1:1:2
I made two cells of each, one cell connected to a 9V battery to attempt to
achieve some polarisation, and one not connected at all to see what it does
naturally.
The ratios of metal compounds vs silicates was about 1:15 in all cells.
Results: nada.
One of the cells with the #1 mix additive shows a voltage of 1,5V, but
at an amperage of only 0,01 mA and that's not even stable (drops to zero
now and then, then comes back to 0,01mA, sometimes briefly 0,02mA).
The other #1 cell, the one which had been connected to the 9V feed, showed
a voltage of 1,8V at first measurement, but this dropped to near zero quickly.
It has not risen above 0,1V after that. Zero amperage readings on that one.
The other two cells are not entirely dry yet, but one of them seems to have
reacted slightly differently and the resulting material is probably too porous
to be of much use. Too porous and it retains relatively much water, plus
there's lots of dielectric air in there which doesn't really help...
The other one looks better, but still needs to settle some more.

So far not much luck in this approach, but I still need to try high voltages
for polarisation purposes. Am still looking for a good adjustable hV power
source, and in the mean time I'm using batteries and planning to use
a simple hV pulse generator.

The use of the named metal oxides does have one cool effect:
the cell materials now look really funky ;D
The #1 mix looks very dark grey with a blue hue and a metallic luster. :)
The #2 mix looks dark to "army" greenish light grey.
I imagine if I add a lot more manganese it may turn bright purple ;)
But I wasn't really going for cool coloured ceramics, although it is a nice
bonus :)

Regards,
Koen
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Feynman on March 12, 2008, 10:33:53 PM
Great work Ian, we are on the path to success
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: jeanna on March 13, 2008, 11:04:26 PM
Hi all,
I had the thought this morning.

Amber

You could grind amber into your mix or,

Maybe the fossilized form doesn't matter, since it isn't really a fossil. I mean it didn't get filled and replaced by local minerals, it just got old and hard.

Pine sap is what amber was.

So, I was thinking about heating or some other way of driving all the water out of pine sap - like alcohol etc. Then treat it to the HV or whatever is going on in the lab to give it some HV.

 ;)
Fron left field then,

jeanna

Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on March 15, 2008, 02:39:16 AM
Amber?
Well, I suppose you could make a nice electret out of amber...
...but a cell that gives amps? without having to heat it? Idunno...  :-\

Anyway, I seem to recall that the "Amber Room" was made from
panels of jewelry-grade amber that were created by pouring and
heating/baking amber resin (freshly squeezed from trees, yes ;)).
For the amber room I believe it was mixed with honey and gold
before 'baking', but I'm not sure.
Point it mainly that I think you can indeed make amber from
fresh resin. I just don't know what the exact procedure is,
or how hot and under what pressure etc the stuff should be baked.
 ;)
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: jeanna on March 15, 2008, 04:54:27 AM
Of course,
I don't know how hot or how long either. Probably enough to get the water out of it.

John puts a probe up against the sides of a crystal in one of his e-rocks and gets a voltage.

 From the beginning I have thought of an e-rock as non homogeneous material. Yesterday I realized I had never expressed this and that all the experimenters here are grinding things and making homogeneous powders.

I think of trails or lines going back and forth of different potential materials. an electret of one type adjacent to an electret of a different type that would hopefully build more and more as the path wanders from one side of the rock to the other. I guess I think of it like the folded layers of a capacitor.

 Amber or sap being sticky could be a substrate onto which another material that would exhibit a voltage/amperage simply by its placement. It is how I have envisioned the crystal cells at their best ( ;)) potential.

I say sap because amber will dissolve if put into alcohol as sap or resin will. I just think sap is a good enough start point because I think it is about the water, but that may be wrong. But real amber probably should be tried.

jeanna

(I'll go back to my coil guns now.  ;D ;D )

Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 15, 2008, 07:53:29 AM
@ Jeanna:

If you "cook" tree sap you may end up with maple syrup.  (sorry, small joke here)  What about tourmaline?  I used to be a geology major a long time ago and I remember that tourmaline gives off an electrical charge when heated or cooled.  Very similar to pizo material which might be another option.

Bill
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on March 15, 2008, 10:54:26 AM
G'day all,

@Bill:    Looks like we are building quite a team here, now we have a geologist.  ;D

Tourmaline is used in most of my mixes these days, I just haven't worked out the correct ratio yet. It will come. :)
I have some large tourmaline crystals which you can measure the voltage on them, but I'm not sure whether they retain any potential when they are ground to dust, the individual particles that is.

Anyway heres an update on the mix made on 2nd March. The ingredients were posted on the 4th March.
 I call this one the Pyrites cell.
The initial open circuit voltage was 1.3V. Placing a 330Kohm resister across the cell started to reduce the voltage.
To speed things up a bit I hooked the cell up to my data logger and changed the load resistor to 10Kohms.
For the last 9 days the voltage across the cell has remained stable at 0.8 V with a load current of 80uA.
I will leave it in this configuration for at least another week.

The sulphur cell continued to give 200mV open circuit so 3 days ago I strapped it across a 22 Farad supercap. The cap was fully discharged before I started.
Today the voltage across the cap is 68.3 mV.  Again I'll leave this in place for another few days.

Next on the to do list is to increase the surface area of the anode WRT  the cathode.  Also I'll try a cell with Bentonite as the main ingredient. Thanks jeanna  ;D

@Koen: I cannot find a supplier for TiO2 in Australia so we'll have to rely on you for your test results .

That's about it for now.

All the best

Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 15, 2008, 06:19:00 PM
@ Ian:

I just want to correct the record here, I am not a geologist, I was a geology major in college for two years before switching majors.  I just don't want anyone to think I am more than I am.

Has anyone attempted to call Hutchison?  Not that he will tell us anything but he seems like a decent guy.  He may at least give a clue as to what materials are involved without giving away his formula.  Just a thought.

Bill
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on March 15, 2008, 07:29:57 PM
G'day all,

@Bill:   "A major in geology"  thats close enough for us. ;D Thanks for the clarification though.
 
I have tried to contact JH some time ago but no luck. Perhaps we should invite him to join the forum, that would be interesting.
Most of the info we have came from his videos.


Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Feynman on March 16, 2008, 12:59:46 AM
JH appears to have enough surplus high voltage equipment in his apartment to keep him occupied for the next decade or so.   ;)   But I think if we could contact him, he would have no problem helping the open source community.  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on March 16, 2008, 03:29:14 PM
I have been in contact with Hutchison.

But he is very reluctant to give any more information, acts very secretive.
I have asked him for advice or tips on increasing the amperage in my
experimental cells, and have asked him for one of his old cells for measurement
purposes.
As soon as it involves Hutchison having to give any information then it seems
he stops communicating. He will listen to your info, but will not really give any.

When I donated some $ to his cause via paypal, he was able to contact me and say
thanks within a day.

Now I gave him almost two weeks to reply to a few simple questions, but no reply.

After asking if he ever received my mail, I finally got a reply a couple of days later,
saying that the government id trying to dismantle his lab, and he's too busy with that
at the moment to do anything else, and if I can help him in any way then please do.

So I am not sure what is going on, because this all seems to be very similar to
the replies I got from him a few years ago.
It seems Hutchison is just not prepared to share his info with cell builders....
 :-[
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 16, 2008, 04:03:01 PM
@ Koen1:

That is very interesting information.  I am not sure what to make of it but no matter if he is lying or telling the truth, it sounds like no information will be supplied by him either way.  Great effort on your part though.

Bill
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Feynman on March 16, 2008, 04:37:49 PM
I am certain Hutchinson is 'real', I think it points more to the fact that he has been harassed so much (his entire lab was confiscated when he tried to move to Germany) and now it sounds like he is dealing with that crap again...
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: nightlife on March 16, 2008, 05:41:15 PM
He has never returned any of my emails.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on March 16, 2008, 05:45:40 PM
Well as far as I know the local government has been nagging Hutchison
about his collection of high energy apparatus in his little appartment,
in the middle of a residential area, for years now.
I think his getting his entire x-tonne lab confiscated by the govt
while H himself was in Germany is of a slightly different nature than this.
This is about him having all this high voltage and high energy radar
and what not equipment in an appartment that is surrounded on all
sides by people living in their own appartments.

If I woul have a guy living under my appartment and I know this guy
is constantly firing up megavoltage electrostatic generators and
slinding through the radar frequencies on several old radar machines,
while intentionally crossing these fields with all kinds of funky high energy
scalar and other experiments,
then I would definately complain as well.
No problem at all with a guy experimenting with that stuff, as long as he
does not do it in my living area, but in his own work space and I do not
get exposed to his weird fields and radiation.
I do the same: I do not go and cook my mixes of various metallic oxides,
various acids, and other stuff, in the hallway of my appartment complex,
where other people can breathe in the vapours and might get really sick
if they breathed the wrong stuff without a mask on,
no, instead I work in my workshop where no other people are around
to breathe in the vapours, I use masks myself, and when working with
really nasty stuff I use an air filter to keep the crap from getting into the air.

But Hutchison just crams his appartment with all kinds of freaky high energy
devices from army dump stores etc, and then is apparently astonished
when people complain to the government and they try to get his machines
removed in view of the public safety.

I am not entirely sure if that qualifies as harassment by the government.
Perhaps this is an a significant way also due to Hutchisons stubborn
attitude...

So yeah, I do think H may indeed have real problems on his end,
and that may well play along in him not wanting to answer questions,
but I also think that his problems are at least partly due to his own
behaviour, and I still find it remarkable that his extreme reluctance
to provide any information just happens to pop up after I asked him
about info on his cells, and even more remarkable that this is amost
exactly the same reaction as I got years ago when I asked the same
question.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Feynman on March 16, 2008, 06:03:26 PM
Yeah, I thought the same thing myself when I watched the videos.   ("wow , he has alot of high energy equipment crammed into that tiny apt").

I wouldn't want to be exposed to random scalar waves either.   ;)

Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: dcarlson on March 16, 2008, 08:33:56 PM
03/16/08 - Rock: Electrons Run Through It
 New results in Science Express show that a chunk of hematite can conduct electrons under certain chemical conditions. In addition, the current causes some mineral surfaces to build up while others degrade. These results with iron oxide might be important for water quality, soil evolution, and environmental cleanup. "Considering iron as an important nutrient, the finding could help us understand how soils evolve from nutrient rich to nutrient poor," says lead investigator Kevin Rosso, a chemist at the Department of Energy's Pacific Northwest National Laboratory. "And it has implications for other common minerals such as pyrite and manganese oxides -- even particles in the atmosphere." Scientists have long known that electrons can travel through some iron oxides when a voltage is applied, but they have assumed that electrons stemming from chemical reactions alone won't move spontaneously through the mineral's bulk. That long-standing assumption has caused chemists to treat different faces of a hunk of mineral as independent entities that don't 'communicate' with each other. New results, published online March 6, 2008 in Science Express, suggest otherwise. "Now we know reactions at different faces of these minerals can couple together and yield behavior unique to semiconducting minerals," says Rosso. The team wondered if the iron being deposited on the top came from iron dissolving from the sides, building up in solution, and then redepositing. To test this, they separated the six cube surfaces into groups: They took two cubes, protected four sides from the solution on one, and on the other, protected the top and bottom. The acidic solution chewed away the unprotected surfaces, as expected. But the chemists didn't see any buildup on the unprotected top and bottom faces and instead saw degradation. This indicated the breakdown and buildup were not independent of each other. "The hematite won't grow pyramids without that surface being connected to the dissolving ones," says Rosso. The required physical connection hinted at electron conduction. Iron in solution, or Fe(II), contains one more electron than the iron in the crystal, Fe(III). If Fe(II) landed on the top, it might react with the surface, incorporate into the crystal and give up its electron. The electron could then flow through the crystal to the sides, where an atom of Fe(III) could pick up the electron and dissolve into the solution. To prove this, the chemists connected the electron flow with a wire. When they repeated the first experiment but connected the two cubes with a dab of silver, the team restored the pyramid buildup. Additional experiments allowed them to measure the electrical potential driving the current flow, which came out to 200 millivolts -- about 6% of the power needed for a keychain LED light, or about twice as much as in a nerve cell. / (Could there be a connection to 'telluric currents'? - JWD) - Source
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: jeanna on March 16, 2008, 09:11:26 PM
Quote
Additional experiments allowed them to measure the electrical potential driving the current flow, which came out to 200 millivolts -- about 6% of the power needed for a keychain LED light, or about twice as much as in a nerve cell. / (Could there be a connection to 'telluric currents'? - JWD) - Source
@dcarlson,
Thank you. I found that a helpful article. And I like the connection to the nerve cell. (I have been thinking about that wrt coilguns this week.)
 ;) ;)
jeanna
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: dcarlson on March 17, 2008, 03:49:01 AM
The Permanent Electrinium Battery
http://youtube.com/watch?v=sNZNoNPI3hc&feature=related
http://www.nuenergy.org/pdf/electrinium.pdf
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: jeanna on March 17, 2008, 05:15:02 AM
Thanks, another interesting read. It explained a reason for homogenization too.
Thanks
jeanna
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on March 17, 2008, 11:37:15 AM
well didn't we already have that electrinium battery pdf?

And although a nice read, it is not really extremely helpfull.
I mean, what exactly does it mean when the author says
the two elements chosen should have a harmonious resonant
relationship?
As if every element has its own single frequency or something?

And the authors remarks about the "sludge" in a battery being
pure "electrinium compound" doesn't sound very sensible either...
After all, that would mean that for example zinc-carbon compound
is "electrinium" and outputs electricity when polarised? But
zinc and carbon are totally different sized atoms with totally different
valences, and how exactly does that compute with the demand
of harmonic resonance between the two?

I get the feeling the author of that doc should have studied actual
science a bit more, and the new age vibrationology a little less.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on March 17, 2008, 01:47:57 PM
G'day all,

@Koen: I Have to agree. This is not a document I would pin any hopes on. But if the author is living off "the grid" I would like to know more about it. ;D


@dcarlson: The links you gave and the information in them are most valuable. Maybe not because they are realistic in todays terms but they do provide an alternative view .
There are some elements in the PDF that we are using today, and some concepts which closely match the lines of research this group is conducting. Any information needs to be looked at carefully.

Maybe  the sludge might be useful in one of our mixes, who knows ?

Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: nightlife on March 17, 2008, 02:18:38 PM
Has anyone thought of using the fastest corroding metal and the least fastest as two substances mixed together with water? Does anyone know what those metals are?

 Or by just using the fastest mixed with water and the slowest as the negative and positive cores. I would think the inner core would have a high osculation pressure making it the positive and the outer having a lower osculation pressure making it the negative.

 I am also interested in the sludge in the bottom of the car battery's that was mentioned. I have plenty of old car battery's and I will take one apart and check this. Based on what was said, I should be able to use that sludge to create a power cell that should last forever.

 This is very interesting and I think it's worth checking into.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: sutra on March 17, 2008, 05:19:01 PM
Hi everybody...

Don't you think guys that with such ideas you are going a bit out of focus?

As far I understood Hutchinson's power Cell (Converter) is based on the Casimir Effect and piezoelectricity (should be completely water-free)....I think that you are risking to go back to galvanic reactions (driven in moist ambient).

On the original video, Hutchinson mixes the ingredients on a simple piece of news paper....and the "special" chemical he uses look to me so much dry....just like powder... If I may ask:

Why do you led in water-based chemical reactions?

Yes, through water, crystallisation is probably easy but as far as I remember from the school, it is really difficult to prevent crystals, obtained in such a way, to adsorb / absorb moisture....for me the risk of developing galvanic reactions is too high in that way...that's why some of your cell acquire more power after some day....

I also think that the necessity of two different metals as electrodes, could confirm my doubts....
...theorically, once that a voltage discharge is created in the quartz particles and there is a correct alignment among them, the electrons will automatically flow in the correct direction building up voltage and current without necessity of "pulling" them with metals of different electro-negativity.

Please consider my words in a constructive way, not as a critic on your great work.

Ciao
 
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on March 17, 2008, 08:18:49 PM
@nightlife: well of course, if you have a lot of used batteries from which
you can harvest some sludge, and you want to try if that can be turned into
a power cell, then by all means do try and post your findings! :)
But be carefull! Batteries tend to be quite toxic, and we really don't want
you poisoning yourself or your cat or whoever now, do we? ;)
One of the difficulties with that "electrinium battery" idea is that the
author at some point suggests that an electrinium compound should
be polarised and encased in a third element, which has the same
temperature sensitivity (expansion coefficient) as the electrinium
compound, and is a suitable material for the desired electron flow.
So I guess you should determine the thermal sensitivity of the
sludge compound, and find a conductive or semiconductive
material that has the same sensitivity to encase it in. It seems to
me that this material should if possible be a pure elemental substance
and not a compound...

About the fastest corroding metals, I don't really follow what you mean...
I mean, of course the most "corrosive", or actually most chemically reactive
metals are the alkalimetals, you know, all the way to the left of the periodic
table, and the least chemically active beside the noble gases that are totally
inactive, are the Fluoride group all the way to the right of the table...
And yes, if you mix them in water they do indeed react; or at least most of
them do, and quite aggressively too. During these reactions a lot of energy
can be released in the form of heat. But after reaction you are generally left
with a very non-reactive compound, which is chemically neutral.
In fact, this is the sludge in the batteries we're talking about. ;)
Now some compounds do have some interesting electrical properties,
like the famous Galena, which is a crystalline form of Lead Sulphate (PbS).
Galena was used in crystal radios in the 1920s and is a semiconductive
compound. But since then much more efficient semiconductors have been developed.
Anyways, all of such compounds can theoretically be polarised to a
degree, some more than others due to their material structure.
Old (and modern) car batteries often used lead plates and sulphuric acid, didn't they?
Well, then any sludge on the bottom should be mostly PbS... but not in
crystalline form...
And if you can figure out a way to safely (!) collect some of that (or just buy
some galena and crush it) and can figure out how to make that into a solid
block (encased in some other material), while polarising it, then you might be able to
make a nice "electrinium battery" replication attempt. :)
But like I said before, take precautions before you start digging into old batteries eh? ;)
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on March 17, 2008, 09:29:27 PM
Don't you think guys that with such ideas you are going a bit out of focus?

As far I understood Hutchinson's power Cell (Converter) is based on the Casimir Effect and piezoelectricity (should be completely water-free)....I think that you are risking to go back to galvanic reactions (driven in moist ambient).

Well... in fact, Hutchison did use water in his mixes...
And yes, I do think we should try to keep things as dry as possible, because we do not want to get a galvanic cell.
 

Quote
On the original video, Hutchinson mixes the ingredients on a simple piece of news paper....and the "special" chemical he uses look to me so much dry....just like powder...
Don't forget that "tech tv" video is a demo video, it is vague, montaged, resequenced and cut, and Hutchison does not tell nearly all there is
to know about the concept. The mix of powders that he shows in the newspaper is indeed a mix of powders. The can he uses is indeed a metal can. What metal?
He doesn't say. The rod he uses to mix the stuff and as central electrode is of similarly unknown material. He heats it for an unspecified time at unspecified
temperature, and puts an unspecified "high voltage" on the electrodes for again an unspecified period of time. You see, the video is mostly a demo to show
off how he can make these mystery energy cell dirt cheap as if it's a piece of cake, and to promote his zpe energy connection. It does not show the entire
procedure or method in detail, it does not provide the details of the materials used, it does not explain all the related theory behind it. Nor does Hutchison
freely share those details; he is quite secretive about the entire subject.

Quote
If I may ask:

Why do you led in water-based chemical reactions?

Yes, through water, crystallisation is probably easy but as far as I remember from the school, it is really difficult to prevent crystals, obtained in such a way, to adsorb / absorb moisture....for me the risk of developing galvanic reactions is too high in that way...that's why some of your cell acquire more power after some day....
The reason why I add water to my mixes, is that in baking a ceramic, it is very difficult if not impossible to form bonds
between different silicates and metals without using water to facilitate the chemical reactions.
Otherwise, the only way to make a solid from a mix of rock and mineral powder is to fuse them at extremely high temperature,
something like 1300/1400+ degrees.
Believe me, if I had the facilities to do that, then I would be doing so right now :)
If you can suggsest a method to produce a solid material based on silicate and mineral compounds, at "kitchen" temperatures (up to 250/300 degrees max?
at least, Hutchisons little electric heater can't have been much more than that) without using water, then I would like to hear your ideas.

As for me, I try to aim the amounts of ingredient compounds I use so that there is only very little excess water after all obvious chemical reactions
have taken place, so that the resulting material should contain as little water as possible. After that, I generally leave my cells to dry and settle
in a moderately warm and dry place, and I also have a box overloaded with dehumidfier packs which I put them in, to try and get as much as possible
of the remaining water out.

Quote
I also think that the necessity of two different metals as electrodes, could confirm my doubts....
I am not sure if you should view the results of some of our experimental cells as confirmation of your doubts (? of our methods? or of our entire endeavour?)
but I like to see them as just experimental results, which in my own view serve to gain a better understanding of the processes and
preferred arrangement of the ideal cell. Obviously these are not the ideal ultimate cell types. These are variations in which we try our ideas of possible
ingredients.
As for the necessity to use different metals, that is also not entirely fixed...
Most of my cells are either unpolarised or polarised with a low voltage, and
I think in that method the two different metals may help the material "self polarise"
(to some small degree) while it is settling and solidifying.
That said, I have also tried some other materials; for example, I made a bit of a sloppy
cell with a galvanised steel tube and a similarly galvanised steel nail as the central
electrode only about a month or two ago. That showed a voltage of around 200 mV and
a flimsy 0.005mA when I last tested it, if I recall correctly. Well anyway, I made a number
of iron-iron, aluminium-aluminium, and copper-copper cells, but most of them were duds
and the ones that weren't were not at all impressive, millivolts. But that may have been
due to the different material mix I used back then...
I will dig up that galvanised steel cell and test it again, to check if it's still going.

Quote
...theorically, once that a voltage discharge is created in the quartz particles and there is a correct alignment among them, the electrons will automatically flow in the correct direction building up voltage and current without necessity of "pulling" them with metals of different electro-negativity.
Heh, well, that depends on whose theory you follow. ;)
Yes, in just about every theoretical approach you should be able to use two similar metal electrodes, because once the
cell material has solidified it has an internal structure that is such, that electrons moving through it "automatically" move
in one direction and not in the opposite direction.
So yes, when the ideal material and method has been established, we should try to make cells with two similar electrodes.
That is, if you wish to minimise galvanic reaction.
On the other hand, if the cell is entirely dry, there will be no galvanic reaction, and it just so happens that the junction
between different metals and materials has certain electrodynamic properties, that may or may not aid electron emission
from a specific crystalline matrix inside the polycrystalline material.
;) Like i said, it depends on what theory you follow, and my theoretical approach is slighlty more complex than just
assuming we can "align the quartz particles" so that electrons flow in one direction. Oh, that's part of it, sort of,
but it's not nearly the whole story...

I hope you see now why we use water in our experiments.

If you have other questions or suggestions, please do post them,
your input may lead to valuable insights. ;)
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on March 17, 2008, 09:50:51 PM
@Ian: sludge in the mix? hmm... ;)
Well I guess it depends on the rest of your mix eh...
I would say try to make sure the sludge compound integrates with the
ceramic matrix... So choose ingredients that link nicely with
the sludge, but slightly better with eachother, and still form a nice
matrix. Or choose a sludge to go with your compound.

Then again, for the more adventurous experimenter ;) it may suffice to
determine the composition of a conductive ceramic mix and
dumping a large amount of dried and powdered battery sludge
in there, then baking it into a powder and polarising it...

Now it seems highly unlikely to me that the "sludge" from dead
alkaline batteried would be usefull at all, as that is simply a
zinc-carbon compound (in nearly all cases). That said, zinc (oxide)
and carbon are ingredients that can help to make a ceramic conductive,
so they might be applicable in the ceramic mix after all... But then
perhaps simply using zinc/zinc oxide powder and carbon powder
would be easier than dismantling tons of dead batteries to get the
tiny bit of sludge out.
NiCad or PbS, if you can find them maybe ancient AgCu sludge might be
usefull, at least this is a two metal compound.
Unfortunately the current trend is to move toward metal-"ion" a.k.a.
metal-"hydride" batteries, which only contain metals like lithium or nickel.
... phasing out the electrinium supply, do you think? ;)
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: nightlife on March 18, 2008, 08:05:45 AM
Koen1, thank you for the caution but please note that I am a automotive technician and I am very aware of the dangers of battery contents.

 I wasn't able to play with the idea today due to being very busy. Mondays, LOL, I hate them as much as Fridays. I will try to do this tomorrow as well as couple other things I have in my head.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on March 18, 2008, 08:28:38 PM
Koen1, thank you for the caution but please note that I am a automotive technician and I am very aware of the dangers of battery contents.

alright, sorry.
Better to warn people a thousand times than to have one person kill himself... ;)
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on March 20, 2008, 01:36:56 AM
G'day all,

Yesterday I managed to plate ( coat) an aluminium electrode with gallium. Turned it into a pretty cool looking mirror. The electrode is actually 20mm diameter pipe ( 3/4 in) .
Using a larger diameter cleaned copper pipe about 100mm length for the cathode.
Made up a standard mix (ingedients aready posted) and heated in hot sand for 3 hours.
The sand allowed a slow cool down for the next 5 hours after the stove was turned off.

So I have a large diameter copper tube into which the mix is poured and inserted into the middle  of that  was the gallium coated aluminium pipe. A voltage was applied from the bug zapper.

When I measured the voltage at the start of polarization in was onlt 1.8V.
Not suprising seeing a wet cell would suck every bit of current from the bug zapper and lower its voltage. As the cell dried, over a period of 8 hours or so , the voltage increased and I finally pulled it at 640V.  I could have left it longer.
 The aluminium electrode was attatched to the +ve and the outer copper to the -ve.

As soon as the polarizing voltage was disconnected the voltage on the cell dropped like a stone.
Within 20 seconds the voltage had fallen to 1.8V and continued to fall.
After a minute it had gone down to 10 mV.

In true Aussie style I thought "Bugger!"  ;D only to see the voltage move through zero and increase in the opposite polarity. The aluminium electrode, which was supposed to + was now at
-1.08V. That is where it has stayed all night.
So the damn thing changed it polarity right before me in the space of 3 or 4 minutes.

 A quick current check with a 10Kohm load pulled it down to 0.8V @ 80uA.

A bit dissapointing seeing I was hoping the gallium would open a quantum flux gate and release mega fryons tuned to the galactic center. Ah well, next week perhaps  ;)

I must admit though the gallium coated aluminium tube did look pretty swish, I just might just chuck all this in and go and make artistic wind chimes for those guys in Byron bay. ;D ;D ;D

See you later

Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on March 20, 2008, 02:41:49 AM
Hi guys :)

Great report on that gallium coated electrode cell Ian! :D
Thanks!

Too bad it doesn't put out more... but it's outputting, so that's still something! ;)
As for the polarisation reversal, I have also noticed that my mixes tend to reverse
polarity... But I've never seen it change right in front of me though :)
I am now checking if it really makes much of a difference in which direction the
material is polarised; or at least I'm making a couple of new cells which I plan to
polarise oppositely. I have yet to decide on the voltage.

My gallium still has not arrived, thinking of looking for another source. Perhaps
I'll go for the Ga/In/Sn alloy, although that's more expensive...
I've paused my "alternative" cell line with a high metal oxide content mix for
the time being, as the various cells I made with that were not very succesful
(read: duds). I thought I had a few nice ones there... but apparently not.
The lower content mixes appear to test similar to the older cells I made,
with hardly any additives, and it may be worth looking into those...
... I was thinking along the lines of using small amounts to 'pollute'
one of my basic mixes, then "bake" several layers with different selected
'pollutants' on top of eachother (one on top of the other) so that they
form relatively "p" and "n" layers.... This will be tricky (if not downright
impossible) in a tube, so I'm going to hunt for some low metal saucers or plates.
Although I still have to figure out how to get the second electrode "baked"
to the top layer while still allowing the moisure to escape from the bake...
Oh well, things to ponder. :)



Quote from: ian middleton
A bit dissapointing seeing I was hoping the gallium would open a quantum flux gate and release mega fryons tuned to the galactic center. Ah well, next week perhaps  ;)
ROFL! ;D :D ;D :D  megafryons ;D

Quote
I must admit though the gallium coated aluminium tube did look pretty swish, I just might just chuck all this in and go and make artistic wind chimes for those guys in Byron bay. ;D ;D ;D
:D heh, yeah, pretty expensive little windchimes though ;)
I was wondering, how hot does it get over there, at your place?
... 'cause if Ga melts at 30 degrees...
"mommy, the windchimes are melting!" ;) ;D

best regards,
Koen
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: sutra on March 21, 2008, 04:14:22 PM
Hi guys,

What is your average calls - materials conductivity?

In all my  borax based cells, made in high temperatures, their conducibility increases  while submitted to vibrations....

the voltage output is always very low....30 mV max but stable....porosity is a problem....

Here is the picture of only the content of my last cell...I grinded the side to see the grade of the compound....as you can see it has a very nice metallic luster...


The recipe is as follows:
 
2gr sand
2.9gr borax
1 gr Hematite
2.5gr aluminium dust

baket around 1000° C

output: 30 mV

Ciao
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Feynman on March 21, 2008, 06:22:17 PM
I think that's pretty amazing
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: jeanna on March 21, 2008, 07:00:09 PM
output: 30 mV

Ciao
Sutra,

Does it produce any amps?

jeanna
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: sutra on March 21, 2008, 11:19:13 PM
Hi Jeanna,

On some points at surface, the output is over 140 mV,  in any case, the amperage doesn't pass 0,5 micro A

The polarity is variable: on some points of the compounds positive is negative or vice-versa....poor alignment?

Resistivity from more than 1 Mohm to about 7 Kohm adding pressure to the compound or tapping it with something


Pity, if I could eliminate porosity, the results may be more interesting...

Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Feynman on March 21, 2008, 11:55:44 PM
I think this area of technology is highly promising, but the materials fabrication process will be very important.

What you want is to get induction of quantum phenomenon. . .  sorry I cannot be of more help at the moment. Perhaps try higher frequency curing?  (ultraviolet, gamma, x-ray).  Hutchinson on the video appeared to use high voltage to activate his cells.

(http://www.yorku.ca/eye/spectrum.gif)
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on March 22, 2008, 03:42:22 PM
@Sutra: nice post! Thanks :)

The polarity is variable: on some points of the compounds positive is negative or vice-versa....poor alignment?
Yes, could be, or it could be localised zones with very localised polarisation of their own, I have
seen this in a few test bakes too. It was quite confusing for a little while, but that seems to be the
explanation: very locally, small "clusters" of the ingredient materials bind together to result in
a localised polarity that is not aligned with the main or indended polarity.
I have noticed this appears to happen more in mixes with a relatively high pure metal content.
Or at least, in my experiments it does. ;)

Quote
Resistivity from more than 1 Mohm to about 7 Kohm adding pressure to the compound or tapping it with something
Sorry, so you mean that the effective resistance rises when you add pressure? Piezoelectric resistor?
Now that is interesting :) Not really the intended effect, but clearly some type of piezo-effect. Cool.

Quote
Pity, if I could eliminate porosity, the results may be more interesting...
Yes, porosity may hinder effects. So eliminating it should increase any effect.
The material you describe has a relatively high aluminium content, and of course
pure Al will oxidise, and alumina (Al2O3) is known for its tendency to form porous
materials, as is the alumina-silicon ceramic. If you could eliminate or decrease the
oxidation of the aluminium powder, you might be able to significantly limit the formation
of pores and alumoina itself. Aluminosilicates (Al:Si approx 1:1) on the other hand is a geopolymer
binding agent and can form relatively solid blocks with relatively low pore content,
which is structurally very tough. You may want to look into that, or similar geoplymer binders?
Also, adding "filler" of very small particle size may work, if the particles can "get into"
the pores somehow during the manufacture process but before actual solidification...

Your block there looks very similar to some of the test materials I have made,
also a porous rock with very low voltage and (near) to zero amps.
The effect of voltage temporarily rising or dropping when the materials are
shocked or pressed on, that I have also seen. But I tend to ignore it for
the most part, as it is not at all the effect I am looking for.

Thans again, good luck with your experiments! :)


[/quote]
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Feynman on March 27, 2008, 05:08:00 AM
Hello friends

I spoke to John Hutchison tonight on Paranormal Radio.  I asked questions about the crystal power cell.  Here is what I've learned:

-Is silicon dioxide a necessary ingredient (quartz)?
"I wouldn't focus on that, no...." -John

-Activation...What sort of voltage and nature are we talking?  Do we activate with high voltage pulsed DC?
"HV pulsed DC , salts, stable, act as a buffer between metallic plates very close together covered with epsom or                other salts that are piezoelectric in nature." -John

-What sort of resistance do you see in your cells?  (we are seeing internal resistance of 10 Megohm in ours).
"not right" -John

-John, here is a list of ingredients to one of Ian's replications.  Can you provide some hints, are we on track or off-track etc :

Quote
-- ian middleton --
31.3gm         fine grain sand
15.5gm         fine iron pyrites dust
1.5gm           borax
2.0 gm          calcium carbonate
2.1gm           sodium carbonate
2.1gm           crushed  tourmaline

"Noooooo... all that stuff is working against each other.  You  want    #
   germanium, galina, iron pyrite, rochelle salt, fine sand." -John

Later in the program.... he mentioned:
"rochelle cells: germanium, galina, pyrites
cost wise: very cheap. " -John

"iron pyrite from japan is best.  old germanium diodes from military surplus euqip had excess energy to them.  the germanium diodes would put out energy. that's how i got the idea." -John

I also asked about activation later in the program... this time John said you want
"12-20kV, continous (DC) , very clean signal.  If you start getting melting or exploding cell etc something is wrong."-John

And lastly, the best cell John has made put out 3V at approx 3A. We all owe John our gratitude for helping the open-source community.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Nihilanth on March 27, 2008, 05:28:19 AM
Yay. Info out of Hutchison other than "Hi please join www.hutchisoneffectonline.com nice to meet you." :o
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Feynman on March 27, 2008, 05:28:30 AM
Rochelle salt
Potassium sodium tartrate

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f1/K-Na-L-%28%2B%29-tartrate.png/200px-K-Na-L-%28%2B%29-tartrate.png)

It is a colorless to blue-white salt crystallizing in the orthorhombic system. Its molecular formula is KNaC4H4O6?4H2O. It is slightly soluble in alcohol but more completely soluble in water. It has a specific gravity of about 1.79, a melting point of approximately 75 ?C, and has a saline, cooling taste. As a food additive, its E number is E337.

It has been used medicinally as a purgative but in more recent years its piezoelectric properties have been more important and it has found usage in phonograph pickups and other sensing devices.

Rochelle salt (potassium sodium tartrate, NaKC4H4O6) can easily be prepared from potassium bitartrate (KHC4H4O6) and sodium carbonate (Na2CO3). First heat a potassium bitartrate solution. Add sodium carbonate to the still hot solution. Add sodium carbonate until no more reacts (Effervescence will occur). Filter the solution while hot and then heat to evaporate the water. After continued heating potassium sodium tartrate will precipitate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rochelle_salt



Germanium:
Look it up you lazy!!!




Galena
Lead sulfide (PbS)

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/86/GalenaKansas.jpg/150px-GalenaKansas.jpg)

Galena is the natural mineral form of lead sulfide. It is the most important lead ore mineral.

Galena is one of the most abundant and widely distributed sulfide minerals. It crystallizes in the cubic crystal system often showing octahedral forms. It is often associated with the minerals sphalerite, calcite and fluorite.

Galena is a semiconductor with a small bandgap of about 0.4 eV which found use in early wireless communication systems. For example, it was used as the crystal in crystal radio sets, in which it was used as a point-contact diode to detect the radio signals.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galena


Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 27, 2008, 07:08:26 AM
@ Feynman:

Great work!  I am sure you just saved a bunch of people a lot of time with experiments here.  Excellent job.

Bill
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: AbbaRue on March 27, 2008, 07:38:59 AM
Awsome stuff:

We should all have a working Crystal battery soon.  This is one of the most exiting times I have seen on this forum.
I was listening when John mentioned the ingredients too.
@Feynman:
I am really glad you got through on the phone, you asked just the right questions.
I got home late so I only caught the last 30 min. of the show but that was all I needed to get the ingredients.

I always suspected that Rochelle salt was one of them. Now I heard fine powdered germanium not germanium salt.
Anyway now to find a source for the ingredients, anyone know of a Canadian source,
don't know how the border will react to importing chemical compounds.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on March 27, 2008, 08:01:41 AM
G'day all,

@Feynman:  Well done, thank you for your efforts. I think all in this group will appreciate the information you have come up with. There was one ingredient that John mentioned that I haven't used yet although I have tons of the stuff in the cupboard. Epsom salts. I don't think it will be as good as rochelle salt but that one bit of info has now made things a lot clearer. Thanks.
The high KV may cause a problem, the highest I can go is about 6 KV so I'd better start hunting around.
 Ok then, it's back to the lab, I can see this is going to be one long night.  ;D ;D

Ps  did you manage to record the show?

Catch you later.

Ian.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: AbbaRue on March 27, 2008, 08:12:58 AM
For a HV DC source an old computer monitor will work great, just feed the output into a Lyden jar cap. to get clean DC.
Just visit JLN Labs and look up lifter power supplies.
I tried making Rochelle Salt from cream of tarter once, the problem is the stuff they sell as cream of tarter isn't the real stuff anymore.
So you may have a problem getting true cream of tarter.   It would be much better to get some pure Rochelle Salt.
Some drugstores may sell it I don't know. But if someone finds a good source we can all profit from it.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: sutra on March 27, 2008, 11:37:47 AM
Hi guys...

Great news....wow!

Shall we just starting pounding some diodes? (hunting for Germanium and Silicium) LOL
Ciao
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on March 27, 2008, 11:52:57 AM
Feynman, thanks for that!

Remarkable that Hutchison does want to talk on his show but does not reply to
emails with similar questions...

Although I find your action commendable, I have some questionmarks on Hutchisons answers...

First of all, he says we shouldn't focus on the quartz. Later on he says one of the ingredients needs to be sand.
Now I don't know what type of sand he is talking about, but to my knowledge sand is mostly quartz...

Second, Hutchison gave me a similar "recipe" some time back, but it was slighlty different.
He did not talk about using Galena back then.

Third, if you mix Rochelle salts, Iron pyrite, and Galena with water and heat it,
you should get a sulphuric acid solution with lead and iron ions in it, and the rochelle salts
merely add electrolyte...
sounds like a mix that is VERY galvanically active, which should mean galvanic reactions,
which smells of a normal chemical battery reaction to me...
And I thought we wanted to avoid that.

Fourth, even if we were certain these are the exact ingredients used, the ratios of the
materials used in the mix are crucial. You can't just toss any amount together and hope
it will work.
Take "normal" germanium diodes for example, the p- and n- dopants used in those
are generally something like 1% dopant in the germanium, and a few % more has
a huge effect on its function as a diode... So how much of which you mix together
can have enormous effects.

So the questions that remain, in my mind, are:
- what are the ratios of the ingredients used
- is Hutchison being completely truthful about the ingredient list, as info received
from him in the not too distant past was clearly significantly different on the exact same subject

That said, thanks Feynman for the call-in action there, and for posting the info here! :D
I salute you. ;)

You wouldn't happen to have a URL with the radio show, would you?

kind regards,
Koen
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on March 27, 2008, 12:01:10 PM
I am sure you just saved a bunch of people a lot of time with experiments here.

Heh... Not really.
I knew this story.
Problem is there are different versions that Hutchison has brought forward.
This one has Galena as crucial ingredient, another story did not.
Another one included barium titanate, and another version included
silver coated metal electrodes...
It seems Johns story tends to change slightly over time...

Another problem is that Germanium is freaking expensive: over 600 euros for 200 grams!
Nothing cheap about it at all.

And we still need to experiment to get the ratios right,
that is assuming that Hutchison gave a truthful and exact ingredient list this time.
Which I doubt.
And experimenting with such expensive material is not for everyone...

Still, Feynman did a great job contacting JH, that's true :)
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on March 27, 2008, 01:44:12 PM
Okay, since we've now got a few people here who seem to actually
want to try some experiments, besides Ian and Jeanna and me who
have already done quite a few between the three of us,
I will give a short breakdown of the approach I have been using.

Originally I had some ideas about incorporating quartz into semiconductor
diodes, thinking the naturally oscillating quartz might be used to excite
electrons (and holes) at the p-n junction much in the same way an
incoming photon excites them in a solar cell p-n junction. This idea
I had dubbed the "Quartz Diode" and my first concept drawings of that
stem from 2000/2001.
Fairly quickly I had determined that it was near impossible for me to
produce p- and n-doped semiconductor material of the purity needed
to produce an actual functional semiconductor diode comparable to
those produced industrially and commercially available, for several
reasons but mostly because I do not have a "clean room" with a
1500+ degree kiln for melting the materials.
So I decided I was going to look into other possible compositions
and types of materials I could make with them. This path turned
out to be very similar to that followed by both Hutchison and Reid,
as I later found out.

My approach is still very similar to my "quartz diode" concept:
basically we just want naturally oscillating material such as quartz
to stimulate electron flow, and we want to use diode-like rectification
to "lead" this flow in one direction only.
That means making a material with quartz in it for excitation, and
with p-n semiconductor properties.
So we want to use semiconductive materials in the mix.
Common semiconductive compounds are:
Galena (PbS), Titanium oxide, Iron oxide, Copper oxide,
silicium, germanium, etc etc.
So it seems we may want to use these materials in the mix.

I have made various cells, and one of my most recent paths of
examination was a line of cells made with a mix of several of
those "common" semiconductor materials.
Attached you will find a pic of two of my large cells;
the left is a "Reid"-style based cell with a material that is
based on the material Reid uses/used in his cells, and
the right is a cell from that semiconductor compound mix
line. That particular cell has a mix that I have described before:
titanium oxide, iron oxide, cobalt oxide, aluminium oxide,
fine quartz sand, several common silicates, little bit of additives
like kaolin, borax, mica. The one on the pic does not contain
pyrite or tourmaline, but I have made some that do.
Oh, by the way, both of these cells give around 1V output
at a low milliamperage, nothing structural above 10mA.

As for the Germanium, I have been trying to purchase Germanium
powder for use in my experiments for quite some time now,
and so far the closest I have gotten is a rough price indication.
A company in the UK claims to be able to supply it at
prices of about 200 pounds per 100 grams, and one here in NL
offers it for 300 euros per 100 grams... But both companies act
like its a big deal and seem a bit reluctant...
It seems a bit strange to me that Hutchison refers to this material
as "cheap"... titanium oxide, that's cheap. Germanium is flippin expensive!
Perhaps H uses only a very small quantity in his cells?
Then it would be relatively cheap...
But since we don't know the ratios of his ingredients at all, that's
all idle speculation I guess...
;)

In any case, if anyone wants to try some mixes of common
semiconductors, then please keep us posted? :)
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Feynman on March 27, 2008, 02:37:11 PM
1) I think he meant that quartz (as in ground up quartz rocks) was not crucial.  He DID mention finely ground sand, which would also be silicon dioxide (SiO2). 

2)  Yes, I know the ratios are important, but I felt that would be pushing the request. Especially on radio.   I figure we can at least try experimenting now that we've narrowed things down a bit.  Plus it gives us the added knowledge of trying things.  What fun would it be if there was no mystery?  ;)

3) As for that Barium compound, he did mention it as a possible ingredient, but it seemed it was not an ingredient in the 'classic' vintage Hutchinson cells (my own speculation).  It seemed that the barium addition a new area of experimentation.   As a side note, barium is a group 2 element, so it's closest to Magnesium and Calcium in its electron configuration.

4) Regarding the electrodes, I didn't ask about these.  Silver seems to me to be a good material for this since it resists corrosion and is the best conductor.   

5) If Germanium is really that expensive, the amounts necessary must be very small.  I say this because John listed the materials cost per cell as $0.50 to $1.00.  There is no way these cells are 50% germanium.  It is probably added as a doping agent like in a transistor, in more reasonable percentages.  Also, AbbaRue mentioned it was powdered germanium, not one of the salts.  I think that is right, considering many of the germanium salts do not play nice in air at room temp. 

6) So yes, we need to experiment to learn the ratios, etc.  I figured this was a small price to pay for guidance on the materials and high voltage activation, since materials concerns seemed to be the biggest question.


Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on March 27, 2008, 03:23:56 PM
I agree with your assesment, except for the barium titanate remark,
as H clearly was already working on BaTi variants back in Hiroshima...
But in general you seem to be right.

Thanks again for your effort, it is greatly appreciated! :)
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Feynman on March 27, 2008, 04:08:39 PM
@Ian, all

The audio from the radio show is not online yet, but I suspect it will be soon.  The program is called "Paranormal Radio" and the host was "Captain Jack", who was actually a really good host.  It was recorded Wed. March 26th 2008.

http://www.contacttalkradio.com/hosts/archives/captainjack.htm

Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on March 27, 2008, 05:17:55 PM
I would like to post the ingredients as Hutchison mentioned them
in his private newsletter, but one can only get to his newsletter
by registering as a member on the website www.hutchisoneffect.ca
and donating some $$ to his cause. Which I did, but clearly that
"members only" info was not intended for the general public, and
I think Hutchison would not appreciate my "pirating" of his newsletter.

It seems that website is now offline. It was still online two weeks ago.
Don't know what's going on...

In any case, the info in the newsletter was similar to the info Feynman
got from the radio show, yet slightly different.
He names the ingredients he told Feynman about, but he also mentions
others. In the newsletter he does not state Galena as ingredient, he
describes it as a material with similar desirable characteristics.
To me that meant "semiconductor used for making rectifying diodes",
which explains the Germanium as anyone schooled in the history of the
diode and the transistor should know that before transistors existed,
people used vacuum tube amplifiers and/or "crystal detectors" in radios.
For clarification: "crystal detectors" were originally semiconductive crystals
like Galena, and they were ancestors and rough versions of a diode.
During WW2 radar research they researched better "radio detectors",
and came up with Germanium as a better crystal detector.
So basically Galena is the older and less sensitive "cousin" of Germanium.
(well not really as it is a compound and only semconductive as compound
crystal, while Germanium is a semiconductive element in itself. But you get the idea.)
It is, in my opinion and according to my own theoretical interpretation,
not at all coincidental that fine quartz sand is used, as that obviously is a silicium
compound, and silicium is the lighter "brother" of germanium, it is also a semi-
conductive element, and much more abundant than germanium.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Feynman on March 27, 2008, 05:35:17 PM
@Koen
So do you think that we want both germanium powder and galena, or one or the other?  Or perhaps we should try both?

@all
By the way, germanium powder should be easy to obtain at high mesh sizes, since it is a non-toxic semiconductor.   The problem will obtaining be the galena (lead sulfide) and perhaps the barium titanate, since these are toxic. This of course will vary depending on your country.

The rochelle salt is very easy to make, and requires only readily available reagents.  I posted a simple reaction to precipitate rochelle salt, and you can probably just dessicate it and then grind very finely using a morter and pestle.

PS
@Koen, ian
Are you sure that you need to mix this stuff in water? I'm afraid that might destroy the crystalline structure of these beautiful reagents.  Because many are ionic salts, by wet mixing, those ions are just going to go into solution, and you'll be real lucky if you get nice crystals back out.

 If this were my crystal cell, I'd just dry mix nanoparticle powders of the components and run 20 kiloVolts through it.  Perhaps this is not correct.




Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on March 27, 2008, 06:18:04 PM
So do you think that we want both germanium powder and galena, or one or the other?  Or perhaps we should try both?
Well that's a good question. I am inclined to experiment, so I would say try all of the above. ;)
I have an educated hunch ;) that some combination of the two might have more of the desired effect than one of the two.
But I also have some mixed feelings bout the galena, and think perhaps other semiconductor compounds could be
equally or even more usefull.

Quote
By the way, germanium powder should be easy to obtain at high mesh sizes, since it is a non-toxic semiconductor.   The problem will obtaining be the galena (lead sulfide) and perhaps the barium compounds, since these are toxic. This of course will vary depending on your country.

Yes well, toxicity is not the only thing that limits availability. Abundance is also an important factor. Germanium is a relatively rare element, while lead and sulphur
are quite abundant, which makes Ge very expensive and PbS cheap. Could be that PbS is not easily found, but should not be more difficult than Ge,
and it can be made quite easily by reacting lead and sulphur. And anyone with an old car battery has the two... Besides, Galena is a naturally occuring
mineral, so you should be able to order it from mineral and gem shops.

Quote
The rochelle salt is very easy to make, and requires only readily available reagents.  I posted a simple reaction to precipitate rochelle salt, and you can probably just grind it very finely using a morter and pestle.
Yes, I know the basic preparation formula you posted. It's from Wiki, isn't it? ;)
The problem I have with that is that although sodium carbonate is readily available, I cannot find an easy source of potassium bitatrate.
Maybe some antique chemist across the border can make me some rochelle salt...

Quote
PS
Are you sure that you need to mix this stuff in water? I'm afraid that might destroy the crystalline structure of these beautiful reagents.  Because many are ionic salts, by wet mixing, those ions are just going to go into solution, and you'll be real lucky if you get nice crystals back out.
Well, I have several reasons for the tenacious idea that we need to add water. One is the simple fact that Hutchison said so (in his newsletter).
Another is that the end product is a silicate compound with metal/mineral dopant, and in general any such solid is called a "ceramic", which
in general is prepared by mixing the ingredients in a moist state, and then baking them into a solid.
And another is the fact that any dry form of melding/fusing/baking the mix into a solid requires extremely high temperatures because you're
talking about melting the solid materials and allowing the molten materials to fuse and form one material matrix. This needs extreme
temperatures and a kiln that can reach the melting temperatures of all materials needed. Silicium for example metls at 1420 degrees C,
SiO2 at 1650 degrees... Now that's really hot, not just something you do in your kitchen. ;) And as you may recall from Hutchisons demo
video in the "invent this!" TechTV show, in the demo he uses a simple electrical cooker/heater to make the cell... If it did not contain
any water, then that would serve no purpose other than warming the powders up nice and cozy... And I don't think that's what H is doing.

Perhaps you are slighlty lead astray by the term "crystal cell"? What is meant is not "a cell full of little crystals", but rather the term
"crystal" as in "crystalline material matrix", you know, the "crystal lettice", the internal structure of a solid material. The cell material
forms 'crystalline' material structure in that the different atoms link together in a suitable manner to produce a specific solid compound,
which like any crystal structure has certain electrical and electrodynamic properties. Ok, it seems to me that all of these cells would
contain a polycrystalline material which one could view as "many little crystals", but I don't think that is what is meant with the term
"crystal cell".

But hey, I could be wrong... ;)

Quote
If this were my crystal cell, I'd just dry mix nanoparticle powders of the components and run 20 kiloVolts through it. Just a thought.
Well I'd like to do that in combination with tossing the entire thing into a kiln at something like 1800 degrees, because it is of very little
to no use if we do that at "kitchen temperatures" of 300 degrees max.
So it seems melting is the way to go for the dry approach. And if we want to quartz/silicium to melt along with the rest,
we'll need at least 1600 degrees...
But what metals remain solid at that temperature? After all, we'd need a container...
And we can't melt it in a kiln, then pull it out in molten state and quickly pour it into a metal container, either...
... for one thing you'd set the building on fire, and still melt the metal container probably.

Well, there's my reasons for adding some water. ;)









[/quote]
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: sutra on March 27, 2008, 06:20:37 PM
Hey guys,

Rochelle salts disolve also in alcohool...maybe just enough to adhere to the platlets and bond everything together...


Have you seen these pics? The cell looks so "glassy" inside..almost like a pile of thin glass, quartz or fluorite disks...
but the interesting thing is the drawing he shows: looks like the scheme of a diode...or the blue-print of a system to keep "compressed" the disks pile - I also read somewhere, that he needed the help of someone to find the system to coat quartz with metal....the only simple one I know is the method involving the rochelle salts and silver...
In the other hand, we all saw the videos where he shows a very different cell content...

Moreover I think that  a man who discovers the secret to harvesting free energy, would be VERY VERY much busy in finding the way to merchandise its product (worth an hell of money) or at least sharing it with the rest of the world...(as probably we are pushed in doing, since mother Earth resources are limited and the climate is completely ruined...)...for me. his behaviour is quite strange... 

 ???What do you think?


ciao
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Feynman on March 27, 2008, 06:32:56 PM
@sutra
Thank you for the pictures.  No I had not seen these yet...

@Koen
Quote
I know the basic [rochelle salt] preparation formula you posted. It's from Wiki, isn't it?

Indeed it is

Quote
The problem I have with that is that although sodium carbonate is readily available, I cannot find an easy source of potassium bitatrate.
Maybe some antique chemist across the border can make me some rochelle salt...

Perhaps one can make potassium bitartrate from tartaric acid?

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/3/3e/Tartaric_acid.png/200px-Tartaric_acid.png)
tartaric acid

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1d/Potassium_bitartrate.png/200px-Potassium_bitartrate.png)
potassium bitartrate


C4H6O6 + KOH  <-->  KC4H5O6 + H2O

tartaric acid + potassium hydroxide <--> potassium bitartrate + water




As for your other comments regarding melting point and use of water as a solvent, thank you very much.  They were enlightening. 
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: AbbaRue on March 27, 2008, 07:21:35 PM
If you look at the Hutchison videos you will learn a lot about how to make these cells.
First I don't think water has anything to do with the mixture.
You mix the dry ingredients together and heat the mixture on a hot plate
once it's hot you apply the HV DC keeping it charged while it cools down.
The concept is similar to making on electret.
I believe the Rochelle salt is the main active ingredient because it is a piezoelectric material. 
He says the quartz or sand isn't a main ingredient because it is the insulator,
so any insulator should work even glass. 
I believe he gave us a list of ingredients that work together, any combo of these should give resaults.
It sounds like the pyrite is very important because he put more emphases on it,
stating that Japan had the best source he found. 
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on March 27, 2008, 08:03:42 PM
@Sutra: yes, I know those pictures.
That is one of Hutchisons Barium Titanate cells, if I recall correctly.
That one had to be slammed onto the workbench to start working again,
and if I'm not mistaken was made with thin metal plates that were
coated with a thin layer of barium titanate. This is the type of cell
he sold to that Japanese businessman.
It is one of the earlier versions, before H came up with the "dirt cheap"
method. It was a much more complicated and probably also expensive
process to make such a cell.

@Abbarue: :) I've studied all the videos that show H working on or
talking about his cells. I've also briefly been in contact with him,
and got some descriptions from H on paper. He is very secretive
about the entire thing, claims a number of people have tried to
steal the idea to develop and market it themselves, just like
has happened with some of his other inventions. That is why
he refuses to give more detailed information and will not give
any info on the ratios used. Or so he says.
He is not telling the entire story, I think.
He certainly does not show all in his videos.
As for the water thing, like I told Feynman, I don't see how
you can make a solid out of the dry materials at "kitchen
temperatures" without adding water (or some other solvant).
Plus in the text info I have from Hutchison he clearly says he
adds water... but then again that could be just a bit of disinformation
on his part, to keep the secret... ;)
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Feynman on March 27, 2008, 08:44:25 PM
Glad to hear those pictures were of older cells... I think the most viable path forward will be with both 'wet-mixed' and 'dry-mixed' cells based on the corrected materials list:

fine sand (SiO2)
iron pyrite
germanium powder
rochelle salt
... and possibly lead(II) sulfide (galena) and/or barium titanate


Experiment with both wet and dry, and activate with 12-20kV. 

Personally, I think the finer the powders are ground, the better things will be.  Most ideal would be nanopowders. 

Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Nihilanth on March 27, 2008, 11:46:40 PM
Did anyone else notice that all of the materials he mentioned were on the first page of this topic, and is on wikipedia.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on March 28, 2008, 01:42:21 AM
Yes, and I have also noticed the wiki page appears to have been
altered since then, and now only contains this list...  ???
I seem to recall that back then, there was confusing info on there
about the cells, and more of it too...

Well, I've been looking to buy some Germanium for some time now
but the stuff if hard to come by in powdered form, and expensive as well.
I may revamp my Hutchison cell attempt line when I get that,
so I'll have to keep looking.
In the mean time I am going to continue my line of experiments,
which I still believe are based on the same principles and ideas
as those of JH and Reid for that matter. Reid uses different ingredients
to make his cells, and I am fairly confident I have managed to replicate
some of his cells. In any case, Reid has been more forthcoming and
open to correspondence than Hutchison has been so far.
Since the two cell types have quite different ingredients,
I feel it may not be strictly necessary to use the four (five?) ingredients
named by JH, and that other mixes of the right compounds and elements
may work as well. JH also hints toward that in one of his newsletters,
just remarks "other suitable elements may be substituted" somewhere.
When I finally manage to get some germanium and try some 100%
"Hutch-mix" I will keep you guys posted, of course.  ;)

Anyway, who's going to try the "Hutch-mix"? ;) ;D
Please do post your experiments! :)

best regards
Koen
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Feynman on March 28, 2008, 01:45:10 AM
@Nihilanth

I see nothing regarding lead (II) sulfide.    In any case, what is your post accomplishing here?  That some of these materials were on an extensive list of possible reagents? Yup.  Did we have primary source confirmation of the details? Nope. 


Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Feynman on March 28, 2008, 02:34:03 AM
Here is the mp3 of the radio interview.  I ask about the power cells at approx 100 minutes.
http://drjudywood.com/media/080326_JohHutch1_KRWM.mp3

*Edit:  Seems like this mp3 is missing the piece where I ask about Ian's reagents.

Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 28, 2008, 04:36:14 AM
@ Feynman:

Thanks for the radio interview link.  I just listened to about half of it and....wow....I am disappointed.  I have been a fan of Hutch from way back.....but when he said...."I was e-mailing my friend Paris Hilton and..."  he lost me.  I will listen to the rest of it when I get a chance but, I no longer have the respect for him that I once did. (Not just because of the Paris thing)  I always gave him the benefit of the doubt about his "effect" and maybe there is still something there.  Now I hear about like 3 different ingredients floated about by him for this cell and I have to wonder.  Yes, he has had people/gov. on his case and, as he has said, this is why he is playing it like this.  Maybe true, maybe not.  Anyway, I always like to learn and thank you for posting the link.

Bill 
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Feynman on March 28, 2008, 04:41:19 AM
Personally, I am convinced John's research is honest.  As for his social things, Hollywood, etc... think of this way:  John wants his own Discovery Channel show.   In my opinion he deserves one.

Let's not tilt at windmills.    ;)
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 28, 2008, 04:44:02 AM
Ah, Cervantes....


Bill
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Feynman on March 28, 2008, 04:46:47 AM
 ;) :D ;D

I didn't even know that's where it's from until you mentioned it!  Now I learned another new thing today.   :)

Thanks Bill
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: AbbaRue on March 28, 2008, 06:31:54 AM
John stated that he has been working on these crystal cells for over 10 years.
There is no contradiction in the ingredients.
As he learns about the cells he finds better ingredients.  Common sense would tell us that.
All the ingredients he has mentioned over the years do work, it's just that some work better.

T.T. Brown built similar cells and he used barium titanate, also used basalt, granite, and titanium oxide.   
So many things work, just some work better then others.
I believe Johns latest list of ingredients is just the best he has found to date.
Maybe the next time someone asks him he will give another list, of even better things.

Anyway, what would be very useful now is a list of sources to buy the ingredients we need.
Anyone know of a good cheap source for the Rochelle Salt?

Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: sutra on March 28, 2008, 09:24:17 AM
Hi all,

please have a look at this link:

http://books.google.it/books?id=3DOUZfRmJLYC&pg=PA21&lpg=PA21&dq=rochelle+salt&source=web&ots=JGFzbU2vbX&sig=X0r9UOr0q3N36XAQU8l2P4UP_C4&hl=it#PPA29,M1


...interesting....

Ciao  ;)
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: sutra on March 28, 2008, 09:45:54 AM
@ All

If you guys can't find easily find Tartraric Acid, you could just buy chemical yeast: since it is nothing but Sodium Bicarbonate and Tartaric Acid, just bake in the owen the yeast to transform Bicarbonate in Carbonate and you just have the right ingredients for the Rochelle salts...

  ;)

Happy to help  :D
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on March 28, 2008, 09:52:41 AM
As he learns about the cells he finds better ingredients.  Common sense would tell us that.
All the ingredients he has mentioned over the years do work, it's just that some work better.
Well, I think John is qualified enough to simply tell us that if that is so.
I really don't think you need to defend him.

Quote
I believe Johns latest list of ingredients is just the best he has found to date.
I believe he is still talking about the same ingredients and just gets confused now and then,
and that he has not made any cells for years. At least, the only footage is of the same old cells...

Quote
Maybe the next time someone asks him he will give another list, of even better things.
Yes well I was surprised he gave this much info on the radio, so I will be even more surprised
if he ever gives a clear list with exact quantities... ;)

Quote
Anyway, what would be very useful now is a list of sources to buy the ingredients we need.
Anyone know of a good cheap source for the Rochelle Salt?
www.kellysearch.com ?


[/quote]
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: lancaIV on March 28, 2008, 01:09:41 PM
                                                  EXERGIE-Fusion-Cycle
                                     1Kg molar hydrogen ~ 77 000 000 KWH
              "light/current substance and weight ?Alpha-rad./Beta-rad./........=hydrogen derivate(-s) "

Robert E. Henson
http://v3.espacenet.com/textdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=US5252176&F=0
+
Hawley-"Cube"
http://v3.espacenet.com/textdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=US4658171&F=0

Easier to "understand"  and to test: DE .........  Paul Heinrich Marzahn,Muenchen

crystal radio: receiver !   search: emissor ?  LED-like

Fundamentals: Ferdinand Braun,Chandrasekhar Raman, Prof. Florian Popescu
"rainbow"-prisma-effect  : Goethe, Fraunhofer
Exergy-products, actually:
                                    Dr. Helmut Reichelts "Moletherm"-Tapete,
                                    based on his work "Electron-gas-cycle"

                                    www.larbombas.pt  ~ Axergie  spelled: AEs- written: Aix-/Ax ( near Orange)
                                    based on Jacques Bernier- invention

                                    Chemalloy, hydro-carbon et cetera ....
 
                                    FUSION=(S-)MELTING , Hot or Cold
                                    Water=metal/lic=glance=reflective , but also a  liquid foam

CdL



Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on March 28, 2008, 05:08:56 PM
                                                  EXERGIE-Fusion-Cycle
                                     1Kg molar hydrogen ~ 77 000 000 KWH
              "light/current substance and weight ?Alpha-rad./Beta-rad./........=hydrogen derivate(-s) "
I assume you are suggsting we search for that jumble of text?
Perhaps you could say so next time..? Because it is very unclear what you're trying to convey here.

Quote
Robert E. Henson
http://v3.espacenet.com/textdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=US5252176&F=0
Yes, interesting. Thanks for that link.
Quote
+
Hawley-"Cube"
http://v3.espacenet.com/textdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=US4658171&F=0
Not relevant to the topic, is a heat converter. We are not looking for a heat converter.

Quote
Easier to "understand"  and to test: DE .........  Paul Heinrich Marzahn,Muenchen
Interesting if you're into making photovoltaic cells... But we're not.

Quote
crystal radio: receiver !   search: emissor ?  LED-like
What do you mean?
We're after a crystal energy cell, not a LED-like photoemitter...

Quote
Fundamentals: Ferdinand Braun,Chandrasekhar Raman, Prof. Florian Popescu
Fundamentals of what?

Quote
"rainbow"-prisma-effect  : Goethe, Fraunhofer
I completely fail to see what Goethes colour theory and prisma effect analysis have
to do with our crystal cells.

Quote
Exergy-products, actually:
                                    Dr. Helmut Reichelts "Moletherm"-Tapete,
                                    based on his work "Electron-gas-cycle"

                                    www.larbombas.pt  ~ Axergie  spelled: AEs- written: Aix-/Ax ( near Orange)
                                    based on Jacques Bernier- invention

                                    Chemalloy, hydro-carbon et cetera ....
 
                                    FUSION=(S-)MELTING , Hot or Cold
                                    Water=metal/lic=glance=reflective , but also a  liquid foam
And now it seems you are just tossing a bunch of terms onto a heap...

If you feel there is some connection between all of these things and crystal cells,
can you please indicate what it is??
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: AbbaRue on March 30, 2008, 09:24:10 PM
I was doing some google searches of Rochelle salt and on the following website
this fellow got 9.6 volts peak to peak from a single crystal just taping it.

 http://rimstar.org/materials/piezo/rochelle1.htm

If these crystals were properly placed in a cell with a semiconductor material functioning as a diode it would produce a DC source.
Any vibrations in the area of the cell would cause the production of power. So instead of focusing on the mixed cell idea,
maybe we should focus on Rochelle salt and some form of diode. 
Germanium diodes are used in some circuits because of there lower voltage drop to silicon diodes.
Silicon diodes are .5 to .7 volts  were as germanium are around .3 volts.
I also came across a patent that mentioned PbS diodes. (Galena)
I see a patern here both germanium and Galena work as diodes.
Pyrites can show negative resistance and have experimentally been used in oscillator circuits as radio detectors
Zinc oxide shows the same negative resistance curve as the iron pyrite, we can get that from old AA cells.

http://home.earthlink.net/~lenyr/iposc.htm

SO perhaps that is there main function in these cells.

My approach to this is to determine the possible function of each ingredient John mentions.
Then  I can make an educated guess at how to construct these cells.

I strongly believe that this is how these cells work, they pick up any vibrations in there environment and convert it to DC.
We live in a very noisy world so there is no shortage of vibrations to run these cells.
John also hinted towards this on one of his videos.
 
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on March 31, 2008, 12:53:17 AM
I see much repetition of what I had already posted ages ago.
;)

AbbaRue, although I commend your eager searching,
you have not come up with a different idea for the cell.
The materials you describe are all either piezoelectric
or semiconductive, and most are or have been used in
the mix variations.
If you know your semiconductor and crystal radio history,
all those materials are familiar.

But it's nice to see that you're doing the research, and
appear to want to understand how the stuff might actually
work, instead of blindly following hutchisons vague and
inconsistent descriptions. :)
Perhaps we're looking at our next new actual hands-on
cel experimenter? ;) That would be cool. :D
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Feynman on March 31, 2008, 01:28:15 AM
I have not abandoned this area of research;  I'm currently in contact with materials suppliers.  ;) 
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: AbbaRue on March 31, 2008, 07:42:43 AM
I read that Rochelle salt melts at 75 C.
I am wondering if it is still piezoelectric after it's been melted and then left to solidify.
Anyone know the answer to this question?  I haven't been able to find any info on it.
If it can be melted and then solidified again it can be shaped.
This also could be what is melted when the cell is placed on the burner.
When it solidifies it would bind all the other ingredients together.
It would be interesting to see what effect the HV treatment would have on it as is solidifies again.
Might have similar characteristics to making an electret. 
I guess I will find the answers to these questions as soon as I can get some to test.
I bought some cream of tartar and plan on getting some sodium carbonate to make it.
I read sodium carbonate is used in swimming pools to up the pH, this sounds like a good source.
I got the cream of tartar at the bulk barn for 88 cents per 100g.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Feynman on March 31, 2008, 08:27:37 AM
I think you can make sodium carbonate from sodium bicarbonate.  I will look up tomorrow.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: AbbaRue on March 31, 2008, 09:26:13 AM
Yes you can make sodium carbonate from sodium bicarbonate but the process requires leaving the oven on for about 4 hours.

 http://www.seawhy.com/xlroch.html


Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on March 31, 2008, 10:20:02 AM
You can also simply buy some rochelle salt.
It is not really hard to come by nor is it very expensive.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: sutra on March 31, 2008, 03:14:56 PM
I've prepared some Rochelle salt and I did melt it in the microwave without any strange fenomenon...after solidification, the material has a waxy-sticky consistence...I just added water then to allow crystallisation.....I didn't test its characteristics but i belive that in amorfous solidification, it may loose it's piezoelectric properties...
I read that Rochelle salt melts at 75 C.
I am wondering if it is still piezoelectric after it's been melted and then left to solidify.
Anyone know the answer to this question?  I haven't been able to find any info on it.
If it can be melted and then solidified again it can be shaped.
 
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Feynman on March 31, 2008, 05:22:44 PM
Another chemist want to comment on the rochelle salt piezoelectricity?

As for sodium carbonate production, I cannot find the link.  So perhaps it is best to acquire sodium carbonate reagent for pool pH equalization.

Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on March 31, 2008, 06:15:38 PM
G'Day all,
@Feynman:
Sodium Carbonate is washing soda. Arm and Hammer sell it. Sometimes it is called laundry soda.


@sutra: when you melted the rochelle salt in the microwave was the salt dry or moist?
If you heat rochelle salt too much it will become amorphous. Dissolve in water and evapourate slowly to retrieve clear crystals.
Not sure how excessive heat effects the piezoelectricty of the crystals but when I get some I'll find out. ;D

All the best

Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on March 31, 2008, 06:21:30 PM
Not very much to comment on really...
What is there you want to know about it and cannot find?

Piezoelectric effect is always due to the crystalline structure of the material.
Rochelle salt is a Na/K-tatrate, can be made by reacting two ingredients as was
already quite adequately explained in that link provided by AbbaRue, but
can also simply be bought. It is not expensive at all, and should be easy to
order from a shop or website that sells common chemicals.
If you have trouble finding it, you may want to search for its other name
"Seignette salt", or simply "potassium sodium tartrate".
Since it is used in the food industry as a preservative and additive,
you might be able to find it with suppliers of food additives, as E337.

But perhaps it is worth knowing that although it is piezoelectric,
several much more piezoelectrically active materials have been
developed. Quartz is also piezoelectric, as is barium titanate,
and actually there are quite a number of piezoelectric
compound materials that can be made. For a historic perspective
it may be interesting that one of the old 1940s electrophysics
books in my collection very clearly states that rochelle salts
can be used to generate a piezoelectric effect, in more modern
piezo elements barium titanate is used to greater effect. Hehe,
yes, obviously the "modern" relates to the 1940s...
There are even better ones nowadays, but barium titanate is
still used for many if not most piezo uses. Except for the
piezo oscillator components, those are most often quartz.

But remember: piezoelectric effect has to do with pressure differences.
So there need to be pressure differences or kinetic shocks for the
material to produce output.
Just like the pyroelectric effect of tourmaline needs a temperature
difference or constant temperature fluctuations to produce output.
You can make a neat looking cell of piezo material but it won't do
much without input shocks or pressure fluctuations, and similarly
you can make a really neat pyroelectric cell but you'll need to have
a fluctuating heat source to get anything usefull out.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Feynman on March 31, 2008, 07:00:01 PM
Thanks Koen.  Yes I agree piezoelectric is a pressure effect.


But perhaps there is something more, like the Casimir effect?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casimir_effect
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on March 31, 2008, 07:34:42 PM
:)
Yes, Hutchison keeps bringing up the Casimir effect.
As a Dutchman, I am of course proud of mr Casimir for discovering
that zpe effect, but I do feel Hutchisons remarks are perhaps
more confusing than usefull.

When you think about it, the casimir effect must be involved in many
other effects. For example, all "vacuum attraction" phenomena can
be interpreted in a Casimir view. Or for another example, the function
of a capacitor can also be interpreted as a form of Casimir effect.
(Perhaps interesting to point out that the first capacitor was also
a Dutch invention, the "Leyden Jar")
I personally think that that is the sort of interpretation we should
seek behind Hutchisons Casimir remarks.
In a sense it is a sort of zpe interpretation. I guess if JH would say
"it is zpe powering the cell" he would immediately be dismissed by
most investors and researchers, but the Casimir effect is well known,
so that will not be dismissed as easily.
But that's only my personal view.
If you have a better one, I'd be happy to hear it. :)
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: sutra on March 31, 2008, 09:16:33 PM
@Ian

Yes, to speed up the Rochelle salt drying I chuck it in the microwave while still wet....the water evaporated completely and the salt started boiling....according to some documents on line I should have now a Meso-SodiumPotassiumTartrate: the structure is slightly different but the characteristics should be the same.

I've then added some water to disolve the amorfous salt and now I'm having some nice spiky growing crystals...

@ All
I believe that mixing the ingredients suggested by Hutchinson in the last communication, one shouldn't use a too high temperature since the Rochelle salt will loose it's crystalline structure: adding enough water to disolve the salt and mixing in the other ingredients should be enough to obtain a solid compound. The cristallisation at nearly ambient temperature will nucleate from the other cristalline structures in the mix.
Electric current through the mix during the growth of the cristals will opefully align the cristalline structure in a proper way...I'll try to interfere in the cristallisation of the pure salt inserting a couple of electrodes in the solution to see if the current does some changes in the crystalline structure or its alignment.

Let's see....

Ciao
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Feynman on March 31, 2008, 10:46:36 PM
@sutra  Good to hear you have been experimenting


@all

Can we convert Bis-Beta-carboxyethyl germanium sesquioxide back to free germanium?


Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on April 01, 2008, 12:54:08 AM
Can we convert Bis-Beta-carboxyethyl germanium sesquioxide back to free germanium?

:D thinking of extracting it from a barrel of garlic or something? ;)
Or are you thinking of buying the food supplement?

I guess it may be possible to use such "organic germanium" and extract
pure germanium from it...
But you'll probably only get relatively little of that stuff, after all,
there's only one Ge atom per bis-beta-carboxyethyl oxide complex...
It may even be that the food supplement is more expensive than pure
Germanium, in the end.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: AbbaRue on April 01, 2008, 08:32:32 AM
I spent some time searching for Rochelle Salt suppliers and the best price I could find is about $25/Kg.
I can get cream of tarter at the bulk barn for $8.80/Kg. That's about 1/3 the cost.
Takes a little time making it up though.
The recipe says 200g. of cream of tarter produces about 210g of Rochelle salt, thats another bonus.

Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: sutra on April 01, 2008, 10:14:16 AM
@all

Can we convert Bis-Beta-carboxyethyl germanium sesquioxide back to free germanium?



I belive it would be possible but I think that it would be easier to just grind half a kilo of standard diodes....  ;) ;D
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: sutra on April 01, 2008, 02:41:56 PM
@ all


WOWW....

I've prepared some more Rochelle salt and this stuff is REALLY powerful!!!

Still liquid (wet), I applied a jolt of current of 600V and the tin I'm using as container to crystallize the salt, almost jump off the table....even with water the piezoelectric prperties are remarkable.....

Submitted to continous current (around 60V), no bubbles of any kind are developing...I can't imagine the crystallisation results...

Cool....

Ciao
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: sutra on April 01, 2008, 02:47:23 PM
Ciao
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on April 01, 2008, 05:37:30 PM
G'day all,

@sutra: Sounds like an interesting experiment. I don't think it was piezoelectric effect though, it usually requires a ridgid crystal structure. Please let us know how your crystals turn out. Either way, looking at your picture, you've still got more hair than me.  ;D ;D


Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: sutra on April 01, 2008, 07:07:40 PM
Hi Ian,
 
well the can jumps if shocked with high voltage ( at least 4 mm), without any spray or ripple...I know that it takes a crystalline scructure to generate a piezo...anyhow the effect it is rather puzzling...I'm checking the positive elecrode and I'm sure I'll end up with metal contamination in the salt...the crystals are growing on the whole inner surface of the can instead of starting from the bottom...it could mean nothing special, since the salt could just find suitable nucleating surface on the side of the can.

cheers

P.S. yeah, in the picture you can't see my long pony tail....   ;)

Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: sutra on April 02, 2008, 02:06:51 PM
@ ALL
Here is some of my Rochele Salt drying under the sun.



I took a crystal, melt it with heat and alowed to solidify overnight (I takes a relatively long time) and yes, it seem to be piezoelectric once hardened.

Ciao
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: hartiberlin on April 02, 2008, 03:32:12 PM
Hi Stephen,

The show was recorded live yesterday and is available in the archive given
the link below. Click on the "Listen!" button on the right next to the show
description.

John spoke about his never ending power cell technology.

Bill



> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Stefan Hartmann [mailto:hartiberlin@gmx.de]
> > Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2008 4:58 PM
> > To: William Alek
> > Subject: Re: John Hutchison will be my next guest on the PROGRESSIVE
> > TECHNOLOGY HOUR!
> >
> >
> > Great news Bill,
> > will this be recorded and archieved ?
> >
> > COuld you please ask him specific questions to his crystall
> > battery cell  ?
> >
> > Could you ask him,
> > if he will open source the technology or what he wants to do with it ?
> >
> > Please post the exact date of the show.
> > Many thanks.
> >
> > Regards, Stefan.
> >
> > William Alek schrieb:
>> > > Hello all,
>> > >
>> > > The famous, the one and only John Hutchison will be my next guest on the
>> > > PROGRESSIVE TECHNOLOGY HOUR:
>> > > http://www.achieveradio.com/vortex-progressive-tech/index.php
>> > >
>> > > I'm really looking forward to this interview, which will be a technical
>> > > discussion of the Hutchison Effect and more! As many of you know, John
>> > > brings to the table and awesome resume of serious
> > experimentation, exploring
>> > > space and time like NO other independent researcher I know of.
> > I generally
>> > > think of him as my ultra ego unleashed, unhinged, free to
> > explore the exotic
>> > > world of Tesla Technologies - really really cool stuff, and his
> > effects, his
>> > > discoveries are mind blowing?
>> > >
>> > > This show should be very interesting, to say the least! An hour
> > of tech-talk
>> > > with John Hutchison, and the Hutchison Effect, next on the PROGRESSIVE
>> > > TECHNOLOGY HOUR. Brought to you by Vortex Network News.
> >
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: AbbaRue on April 03, 2008, 06:48:33 AM
Hello all:
As I mentioned before I purchased my cream of tartar at the bulk barn for $8.80/Kg.
Well Wed. I purchase some Sodium Carbonate at Canadian Tire.
It's in the swimming pool chemical section and it's called "Aquarius pH+" it has the number 4 on it.
A 1kg container of it costs less then $3 so this stuff is dirt cheap.
1kg should last a long time because I don't think you need much to make the Rochelle salt.
Anyway I just wanted to let everyone know where to get the ingredients.
Till Later Harold.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 03, 2008, 06:51:15 AM
@ Stefan:

Interesting radio interview...I am glad you posted the link.  Thanks.

Bill
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: AbbaRue on April 03, 2008, 07:32:43 AM
Galena is a natural form of Lead sulfide.
How difficult would it be to make some of this stuff using lead pellets and sulfuric acid?
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: AbbaRue on April 03, 2008, 09:54:16 AM
@Sutra
When you disolved the cream of tartar in the water what did the liquid look like?
Did it stay milk white and thick?
I'm wondering if I got real cream of tarter.  I read that a lot of places don't sell the real stuff anymore.
Where did you buy yours, and about how much did it cost?
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on April 03, 2008, 01:24:25 PM
G'day all,

After making some rochelle salt crystals, from them I made a new cell.

Ingredients:
1 teaspoon  crushed iron pyrites
1 teaspoon  gallium coated quartz sand
1.5 teaspoon  crushed rochelle salt

outter cylinder of Aluminium and center electrode of copper.

All ingedients combined and heated in the cylinder until the salt melted.
Cell polarized with 2kV and allowed to cool for 2 hours.

Initial voltage was 0.6V but this quickly fell.
Using an AVO 8 meter set on the 0.3 mA range and a DVM, the cell held at 0.27V @0.21 mA.

I removed the AVO to take the picture and as you can see the voltage started to recover..
I also put a AA battery as a size reference.

I expect the cell voltage to peak and then fall to some stable value, I will let you know what it finishes up at.

Anyway at this stage I cannot draw any conclusions from this cell, only time and testing will tell.

Should a previous post about this cell show up , I apologise, my first one came back with an error.

Ok thats it for now, lets start getting some results in guys.

All the best

Ian


Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: sutra on April 03, 2008, 01:43:04 PM
@Sutra
When you disolved the cream of tartar in the water what did the liquid look like?
Did it stay milk white and thick?
I'm wondering if I got real cream of tarter.  I read that a lot of places don't sell the real stuff anymore.
Where did you buy yours, and about how much did it cost?

The solution with cream of tartar looked white, if you still have some white sludge, it is possible that you still have some free tartaric acid. Heat up the solution and add some more Sodium carbonate (you'll see the bubbling again) until the liquid becomes light-honey colour, clear and the sludge is gone...If that  doesn't help, either you have an excess of sodium carbonate or you cream of tartar is not tartaric acid. filter the liquit still VERY hot otherwise crystals will form in the filter and it will end up clogged.

I bought my tartaric at ridiculously high price in the pharmacy: 3 ? /100 g

Hope to be helpful.

Cheers
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: sutra on April 03, 2008, 01:51:13 PM
@ Ian,

Good job.
Last night I've tryed something similar:

Mixed a 4mm crystal of Rochelle with a tea spoon tip of aluminum dust, melt with clean flame and shocked with 600 V DC. the "thing" was then pushing 0.24 V while still plastic. I left it cool overnight without any current going through...today the "splat" pushes only 12 mV but the polarization is stable...ah, the surface where I did it, is granite.....

Sorry, what's is your salt PH?

Ciao

P.S. where do you get these nice little pipes of yours?
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: sutra on April 03, 2008, 10:05:21 PM
@ All  ;D

Wow!

2 metallic bottle cans, mix as follows:

2gr Rochelle Salt
1 gr sand
0,5 gr Al dust
0,2 gr hematite dust
0,2 gr Graphite

heated to melt and shocked several times with 600 V...still cooling.... output 1,2 - 1,35 V    0,250 mA

Let's see tomorrow morning....

enjoy my pic.....

Ciao

Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Feynman on April 03, 2008, 10:54:24 PM

It's nice to see you guys have been able to do some experiments. I have been shopping for germanium with little luck . . . In any case, I have done a quick comparison of Ian's latest cell to Sutra's latest cell, since they have similar reagents but different results.

Ian:
1.5 tsp rochelle salt
1 tsp gallium coated sand
1 tsp iron pyrites

Sutra;
2 gr rochelle salt
1 gr sand
0.5 gr al dust
0.2 gr hematite
0.2 gr graphite


@Ian: Based on this data, I think you want to use more rochelle salt and perhaps less pyrites.   Also, regarding the gallium on the sand...
Gallium has electron configuration [Ar] 3d10 4s2 4p1
Aluminum has electron configuration [Ne] 3s2 3p1
Germanium has electron configuration [Ar] 3d10 4s2 4p2

So it seems gallium's chemistry should be closer to aluminum than to germanium based on the valence electrons.  What do you think about adding graphite?

@sutra, How many amps did you jolt through it at 600V?!!   ;)
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: hartiberlin on April 03, 2008, 11:17:57 PM
@Sutra,
well done,
well, maybe you just apply a high voltage source like 10 Kilovolts DC for as
long as 1 hour until the mix has then cooled down completely.
This is the way I understand the electrets have to be made.

@Feymann, he wrote
0.250mA , so it is 250 mikroAmperes.
Still not bad for such s small cell.
If you would take a coke can size you would probably get a factor 100 to 1000
more current...
Well done.
Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Feynman on April 03, 2008, 11:38:01 PM
Ah okay, thanks Stefan.  That makes a lot more sense.  I agree, this is still a really good amount of energy.

@sutra
After you do some measurements, try shorting out the cell and see if you get heat, and if it runs down the output energy.

Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on April 03, 2008, 11:52:13 PM
G,day all,

@Feynman: I agree, I think more rochelle salt is the go. I'm leaving graphite out of the equation for the time being because I want to characterize  the effects of Al,Ga and Cu,Ga boundaries.
In this last cell neither the Aluminium cathode or the copper anode was treated in any way save for a good clean prior to the mix being added.

The gallium coated sand was to become one plate and the pyrites the other. In this case the gallium is only being used as a micro metallic surface and not for it's semi conductor properties.

There is however a problem when using rochelle salt.  When heated it becomes very fluid and this allows the more denser components like the pyrites and sand to settle at the bottom of the cell.
While constant mixing helps to combine these ingredients there comes a point where settling occours and results in an uneven mix.  My original theory was to use just enough salt to form a matrix without producing a pool of liquid salt at the top end of the cell.

The plan now is to build another cell using more salt and possibly galeana ( when I can get some ) and use a small quantiy of Bentonite clay as a binder. The clay itself is a phylosilicate and is loaded with platelets in the 0.5 to 1.0 micron range.  I need to see how the dry clay powder combines with the liquid salt.

Anyway as for the cell I built yesterday, it crashed.
I hooked the cell up to the data logger to monitor it overnight. At the start it was chugging along at 0.331V, then after 5 hours the voltage collapsed tp 0.07V in a matter of 3 seconds. So something in the cell rapidly changed. :-[ For the rest of the night the voltage remaind stable @ 70mV.

I took the cell off the logger and for the last 2 hours the cell has been shunted by the AVO 8 on the 50uA range. The output has remained stable at 70mV @ 24uA. I will leave it in this configuration for the rest of the day or until it dies completely.

@ Sutra:  The Al tubes I roll myself from thick aluminium flashing. Makes life sooooo much easier. ;D

I'll be back later with an update on the salt cell.

Catch yer

Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on April 04, 2008, 02:54:56 AM
G'day all,

I need to make a correction. The rochelle cell made yesterday and is currently shunted by the AVO 8
is sitting at 47.7 mV and not 70 mV like I reported before. The 70mV is from the sulphur cell.

I hope that little goof up has not ruined anybodies weekend.  ;D ;D ;D

The bentonite cell has just been built and is being tested. Looks interesting  :)

See yer later

Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: AbbaRue on April 04, 2008, 07:28:00 AM
For the tubes you could just get some cheap AA batteries and take them apart.
Some types have a metal pin for the positive, this can be used for this cells electrode too.
Then you will have a nice little zinc can to put the mix in.
I'm still waiting for my Rochelle salt to grow from the solution.
HOW long do they take to grow?
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: sutra on April 04, 2008, 03:06:04 PM
@ All

HI,
I've left the cell in a sealed container with common salt to dry it out through the night. (just to be sure to keep moisture away...)

The cell was insulated from the salt by means of a tissue.

I've found the cell considerably oxidated in both surfaces (expecially what last night was the positive end) and the polarity completely inverted. Now it pushes only an inverted -0.2 V at 25 micro A. I think that also temperature effects its output...
Simple Iron is probably a wrong elecrode.....
Shocked again with contrary polarisation, the poles swaps, the cell reaches + 0.150 V and drops back slowly, inverting to the previous value of  -0.2 V....

if shocked accordigly with the polarity, the cell reaches -0.6 V and drops VERY slowly to -0.2V even if short-circuited.
 
I wonder if polarisation will continue oscillating day by day or it will stabilize.

The consistance of the paste is quite resistant and hard...I would like to crush some big standard diodes and mix their filling in the Rochelle to see if it is possible to stabilize and enhance polarity....

@ hartyberlin
I know, but actually I haven't got a means to generate 10KV

@ Feynman

I use a disposable camera flash system...it pumps a jolt 600V @ probably 0.6 A (it is quite a kick for the fingers...)

@ Ian..cool, did you try in making a cell wrapping one of your finger with aluminum foil?  :D
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Feynman on April 04, 2008, 04:24:05 PM
Wow those results are really interesting sutra...I will think about this today.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: hartiberlin on April 05, 2008, 01:01:32 AM
Again,
no concrete answers from John..



>>          > -----Original Message-----
>>          > From: Stefan Hartmann [mailto:hartiberlin@gmx.de]
>>          > Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 4:56 PM
>>          > To: johnhutchison
>>          > Cc: William Alek
>>          > Subject: Re: John Hutchison?s power cell will be open source
>>         soon ?
>>          >
>>          >
>>          > Dear John,
>>          > why don?t you open source your power cell technology ?
>>          >
>>          > The folks over here at :
>>          >
>>          > http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,972.0.html
>>          >
>>          > are already hard at work and probably will soon have much
>>         better cells
>>          > than you.
>>          >
>>          > So what are you waiting for ?
>>          >
>>          >
>>          >
>>          > As you can already live of your famousity from your antigravity
>>          > experiments,
>>          > open sourcing your power cell
>>          > would even make you more famous.
>>          >
>>          > Good luck.


>>      */William Alek <william.alek@intalek.com
>>     <mailto:william.alek@intalek.com>>/* wrote:
>>
>>         Stefan,
>>
>>         John mentioned that his cell puts out 3 volts at 3 amps of
>>         continuous power?
>>         This is rather impressive.
>>
>>         The issue with this sort of thing, and I mentioned it on the air
>>         last week,
>>         is that the device should be equipped with a shunt rather than
>>         an off
>>         switch. Otherwise, if for any reason, the device is discarded or
>>         thrown
>>         away, it could be a potential fire hazard probably thoughout
>>         eternity for
>>         crying out loud! :-)
>>
>>         The safety hazards of FREE Energy...
>>
>>         Bill
>>
>>
>>
>>     ----- Original Message -----
>>     *From:* RCH <mailto:enterprisemission2001@yahoo.com>
>>     *To:* William Alek <mailto:william.alek@intalek.com> ; Sue Mini

>>     *Sent:* Thursday, April 03, 2008 6:14 PM
>>     *Subject:* RE: John Hutchison?s power cell will be open source soon ?
>>
>>     Where can I get a few to Beta test ... for "Coast?"        :)
>>      RCH


>
> johnhutchison wrote:

>> i cant keep them in stock they go as fast as i make them  maybe ask dr andrew michrosy of the planetery assc. for clean energy


From: "Stefan Hartmann" <hartiberlin@gmx.de>
To: "johnhutchison" <heffect@infinet.net>

> John,
> why has nobody seen the claimed 9 Watts model yet ?
> With it you should be able to light up a Luxeon 5 Watts LED.
> But you did never show this yet.
>
> Only thing we have seen so far was lighting a small red LED,
> which only needs around 1 milliWatts or less to light up.
> This can also be done by cheap saltwater cells.
>
> So where is a convincing video of your claimed 9 Watts cells ?
>
> Many thanks.
> Regards, Stefan.
>


johnhutchison wrote:

its the one watt challenge  i asked for it and in a letter or email back to me awile ago stateing that ten thousand dollars would be an insult to me as its worth billions  its in writting some where dr hal puthoff personaly seen it when he visited me along with george hathway  at another date we richard brewer and i took it to canada reasearch and developemenmt center  but they did not know what to do with it typical canadian stupidity  i should have taken it to the usa pentagon but i know they have a unit  my friend  of special ops who vitied here wanted to present the ideas to darpa sbir dod darpa miniture storage and management systems but pat did not get to far with them  and dr andrew michrosky of pace  has a unit  he showed  canadian enviroment protection agency and was we where promised 5 million as start funds for factory production but again these funds never reached  dr andrew michrosky general apathy ???????????? dr meades unit  similiar to mine but more complex ibm has all the patent rights to it simialry like geron corpoation for telomerase and now they have a product  my ideas market it cheap for the people can be done why is there no interest ??????  other novel devices are art bells antennea system ; the ark of the covenant www.bluebookfilms.com see pictures of it  as well as self reactive germanium and barium titanate in overunity all i know are certain types of moter generators used for the rcaf and the westing house process off makeing capacitors i asked george hathway what he new  of aanything  nothing maybe solar panels  the other person to ask would be john alexander

Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 05, 2008, 06:29:12 AM
What?





Bill
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on April 05, 2008, 04:16:37 PM
Well, sort of like "bla bla bla", it looks like.

Hutchison keeps giving conflicting info.
In his newsletter it said "John will now share his knowledge of the crystal cell
with the world", but so far nothing tangiable.
Also, I have asked John for a test cell, clearly told him I am willing to pay
him for it, and also willing to sign a NDA if he wants to to make sure
I do not "steal" his cell and patent it myself or anything like that,
because he always goes on about people stealing his inventions and
making tons of money off them.
I never got a proper reply.

This seems to be typical, as it is the same behaviour he has shown
in communicating with other people. Or at least, so I have been told
by these people personally. Whenever you ask specific questions
that either ask for tips or show you're really experimenting with cells,
it seems John shuts down all communication. Seems suspicious to me.

I'm all for trying cell experiments with the ingredients John suggested
and variations on them, but since it does not seem like John wants anyone
to really figure out how to make a working cell, I am certainly not going
to hold my breath until he finally comes up with a story that holds water.
And I know a bunch of you guys don't share my doubts on Johns story,
but it really is true that he has given different ingredient lists and variations
of the story. The difference between Galena and Gallium for example is HUGE.
Seems impossible to confuse the two, and especially if you are 100% sure
of the ingredients you have used in the large number of cells you claim to
have built already, like JH does.
It just doesn't sound right...
 ;)
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 05, 2008, 11:50:46 PM
Yes, with answers like the ones he gave JH is either being very evasive or on some type of medication. (Legal or illegal)
It would be like if you asked me what color the sky was and I answered by telling you how long the New York subway system is and also threw in info on Art Bell's antenna system in Nevada, the number of teeth in an adult Badger, and the number of cups of coffee I had consumed in the entire past year. He sounds like he could work for the State Department.

Bill
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on April 06, 2008, 12:21:54 PM
G'day all

@ Koen: ditto, It sounds sus

@Bill: How many  teeth does an adult Bagder have ?  ;D ;D ;D ( I've got "show and tell " on monday LOL)

@Stefan : Has John Hutchison contacted you through the OU web site? ie his last response.

Kind regards

Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 06, 2008, 07:18:26 PM
Ian:

Enough teeth to get the job done, ha ha.  Hell, I have no idea.



Bill
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Feynman on April 06, 2008, 10:18:14 PM
This latest communication sounds very suspect.  If his devices are real, this is extraordinary selfish and stupid. "  i should have taken it to the usa pentagon but i know they have a unit  my friend  of special ops who vitied here wanted to present the ideas to darpa sbir dod darpa""

This must be a joke. Everyone knows these agencies will simply bury the technology. As I told Hutchinson when I asked him on Paranormal Radio, "the world already has enough weapons."  Apparently he does not agree, is lying, or does not understand how this world works.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on April 07, 2008, 02:14:09 AM
Well well I pop off to Geneva for half a week and you guys
start doing cool experiments while I'm not around eh? ;) :D

(sorry, took me a lil while to read up ;))

Nice going. :)
So how are those new cells of yours measuring now guys?

I'd like to suggest that, once the Rochelle based material appears
to have solidified, you place it in a tupperware box with a lot
of dehumidifier pellets to get as much as water vapour out as possible.
Or at least, that's what I do ;)
Need to go check up on my latest cells tomorrow, haven't seen them
for a week... I left them hooked up to a battery, let's hope they're alright ;D
And I should have some Rochelle salt around somewhere, good time to dig it up.

Keep up the crystallisation! ;D
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: sutra on April 07, 2008, 10:14:17 AM
Hi all

the last cell made with 2 bottle cans got apart.

I took the inside crystal and melt it again in a .38 bullet shell with an iron paper clip wire as central electrode.

I repeated all tests and conditions as for the previous one with the difference that polarity remained constant.

Done further tests as follows:

initial output after 1 day drying: 0.327 V

1 night short cut, in a drying environment: the result was 0.022 V

2 nights no short cut in  a drying environment: 0.150 V dropping fast during testing, stabilizing in 30 secs at 0.082 V +/- 1 oscillation.

Let's not talk about Amperage....a shy 0.3 microAmps....

The cell's volatage drops fast if shorted and rises up as fast if freed...so there should be some electricity "creation" in it but not sufficiently syncronized...

I'll try to crush some diodes and include them in the mix....

I'll keep you posted...

Ciao

Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Feynman on April 07, 2008, 07:32:28 PM
I think I may have procured some Germanium  ;)
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Freezer on April 07, 2008, 08:35:39 PM
I think I may have procured some Germanium  ;)

This store might help idk.  That stuff seems quite expensive.
http://www.smart-elements.com/?arg=pse&lid=11&PHPSESSID=c4ea9bf2d7b60abafe7b8de1d38017cc
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on April 07, 2008, 10:07:05 PM
@Freezer: THANK YOU! :D
That is a great site, I can't believe I had not found it before!
It looks like they ship Ge in (&from) Europe, they've actually got pure Ge powder,
and they sell it in small and affordable amounts!
;D
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Feynman on April 08, 2008, 12:03:06 AM
Nice find Freezer!


@all
Another thought... on activation voltage, if you want to use higher voltages, you can use an old CRT monitor as your high voltage power supply.  I think they throw off like 22-26kV. 
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on April 08, 2008, 02:49:25 AM
G'day all,

WARNING!!!

Although the idea suggested by Feynman, to use the EHT from a TV or CRT, is a good one, be very sure of what you are dealing with. The EHT psu for a TV is designed to supply up to 30mA current.
30mA @ 25 kV is a heart stopper. I've taken a few hits from these things and I got lucky.

So if you do try it , please be very careful.

I'll have some results for you soon.
Back to da lab.  ;D ;D

Ian

Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on April 08, 2008, 02:52:28 PM
G'day all,

Apart from a couple of days at the beach it's been busy busy busy here @ muppet labs.  ;D So it's about time I unloaded
some results ( good and not so good).

As I posted before, on 3rd april I made my first Rochelle salt cell. There is a picture of it after I pulled it apart.
The maximum voltage I got out of this thing was 68 mV and now I know why. If you look carefully at the picture you will see
that the heavier pyrites has settled to the bottom of the cell ( the end with the terracotter plug ).
I measured  voltages along the exposed matrix. There were points near the top end that gave 250 mV, 280 mV and even a point that gave 0.4V. As I measured toward the heavier pyrites end the voltages fell, 45 mV, 15 mV and even -20mV. I beleive the overall output of the cell was an average of all these voltages. So it seems a consistant mix is very important.

The next picture shows a number of cells made in the last week. You will see one there marked "salt2"

Salt 2 built on 4th april puts out 167mV at the moment but has been steadily rising.

It consists of   Rochelle salt, Bentonite clay and crushed iron pyrites and shows a distinct peizo electric ringing on a scope. A light tap with a pen gets 200mV peak to peak.  Because the Bentonite holds moisture, it will be a few weeks before this cell can be evaluated.

Today I made 5 cells. These are the first of what I call the " microcell series " . they are half the size of the cells shown.

In the screen capture of the data logger there are 3 traces. The time frame for that trace is 4 hours 30 mins.
The data logger puts a 1Mohm load on each channel.
 Microcell #1 is purple and as you can see the voltage has been rising.
 Microcell #2 is white and the voltage seems to have settled at 1.52 volts, although I think it will drop overnight.
 The yellow trace, 1.07V is from the pyrites cell made on the 2nd of March. This cell has been shorted for extended periods of time and still manages to come back. I posted the mix some time back but if you can't find it, I'll repost it.

Microcell #1 is a benchmark cell. That is, it is as basic as it can get using rochelle salt.

Untreated rolled aluminium tube.
untreated copper electrode
rochelle salt.
Polarized for 20 mins, bubbles formed around the electrode due to electrolysis.
Initial voltage 0.386V, dropped to 0.27V after 12 mins then rose to 0.32V after 5 hours.

Microcell #2

Untreated rolled aluminium tube.
Heat treated copper electrode to form copper oxide.
Rochelle salt.
Polarized for 2hours. Maximum polarization voltage 84.7 V
Initial cell voltage 1.78V , now holding at 1.52V

The only difference between cell 1 and 2 is the treatment of the copper electrode. Interesting :)

Microcell #3

Sanded rolled aluminium tube
heat treated copper electrode
rochelle salt
0.2 gm  Carbon.
Polarized for 2 hours. Maximum polarization voltage 51.1 V
Cell voltage after 10 hours ( no load )  1.344V  Shows slight peizo effect across scope.

Microcell #4

Untreated rolled aluminium tube
Sparkler as electrode  ;D
Rochelle salt
Polarized for 30 mins, maximum polarization voltage 60.0 V
Large peizo effect across scope
Initial voltage 1.297 V  now down to 1.225 V after 7 hours ( no load)

Microcell #5

Sanded rolled aluminium tube.
Acid washed fine quartz sand
Heat treated copper electrode.
Polarized for 25 mins , max voltage 9.68 V
Slight peizo effect across scope.
Initial voltage 1.524 V , down to 1.521V after 4 hours.

Well thats enough from me today. Any comments and suggestions always welcome  ;D
I'll be making a bunch more tomorrow so we'll see how they go.

Catch you later

Ian.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on April 08, 2008, 03:20:16 PM
Wow great stuff Ian!  :D

thanks for posting that. :)

I'm hunting for a roll of that aluminium plating because my previous
tube supplier claims not to be able to supply the tubes I used
at an affordable price anymore. His price has risen 500+%
since the last batch I bought there, and I don't have many left.
Where did you say you got it, a builders supply shop or something?

Also, thanks to Freezer  ;), I should be receiving a little supply of germanium soon.

Still catching up on the stuff I missed while I was on my trip, but should
be able to get some hands-on experimenting done in a day or two again.
finally! ;D

Let me attach a picture I took at Reids lab;
it shows a digital barometer/thermometer that runs off 3 of Reids cells
wired in series. They are not the most powerfull cells he has made,
they are fairly "standard" Reid crystal cells, and the setup it only
meant to show that the cells do work. Enjoy.

Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 08, 2008, 05:24:20 PM
@ Ian:

Impressive work, keep it up.

Bill
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: AbbaRue on April 08, 2008, 08:18:35 PM
@Koen1
Some newspaper printers sell the used Aluminum sheets at a very good price.
I used to buy them from our local newspaper for about 60 cents a piece.
I used them for making covers for bee hives I had at the time.
It is very thin aluminum sheet metal about twice the thickness of aluminum baking sheets.
but can still be cut with a scissors.
The sheets are the size of a full sheet of the newspaper.
They have the newspaper text on one side but the other side is shinny aluminum.
I believe all newspapers are printed using this method and they can only be used once.
Then the aluminum is just recycled, so they can make more money selling the sheets then the aluminum.

Awsome sfuff Ian!!

Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on April 08, 2008, 08:31:14 PM
thanks AbbaRue, I'll check the local printer later this week for alu sheets.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: sutra on April 09, 2008, 02:05:13 PM
@Ian Cool job, dude !!! But stay tuned for my new cell.....eheheh  8)

@ all

Does anybody know where can I get some Galena?  ???

Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on April 09, 2008, 02:38:51 PM
@sutra: Well, I just pulled a few from my favorites for you;
I don't know where you're located but you should be able
to find and order some on at least one of the following links:
- http://buy.ecplaza.net/search/1s1nf20sell/galena.html (http://buy.ecplaza.net/search/1s1nf20sell/galena.html)
- http://www.greatsouth.net/minerals/p-M726.html (http://www.greatsouth.net/minerals/p-M726.html)
- http://www.minerals-n-more.com/Galena_Info.html (http://www.minerals-n-more.com/Galena_Info.html)
- http://www.tradekey.com/kb-galena/ (http://www.tradekey.com/kb-galena/)
- http://cgi.ebay.com/Mineral-specimen-Galena-primary-lead-ore-Pbs-crystal_W0QQitemZ130211923673QQihZ003QQcategoryZ3225QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem (http://cgi.ebay.com/Mineral-specimen-Galena-primary-lead-ore-Pbs-crystal_W0QQitemZ130211923673QQihZ003QQcategoryZ3225QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

(now that last one is just one of the examples of Galena on Ebay, there's more there if you scroll around)

hope that helps :D
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: sutra on April 09, 2008, 09:11:29 PM
@ Koen1

thanks man....that will help.

Ciao
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: mdmiller on April 13, 2008, 01:25:36 AM
I'm a newbie, and have been experimenting with various OU technologies (I'm especially intrigued by the story of Roy Meyers).  My dad was a ham, and I was always curoius of one long wire antenna strung around the outside of the house and tied up to some trees (one of many antennae).  This wire hung loose next to his gear, and he had a huge capacitor he discharged it into before using it.  I was always warned not to touch it.  This experience has always encouraged me question scientific laws and not take them all as handed down from God.

But for now, I'm testing some various ideas, one incorporating a stepup coil into a battery (which I was thrilled to hear Hutchison mention in his radio interview).  He also discussed a battery with a junction barrier on the end which I'm trying to picture.  Reid diagrams his p-n junctions on the side of one of his batteries.

I'm going to try to make some Rochelle salt tonite if I can locate the tartar. 

QUESTION: Has anyone determined if the crystals can be polarized without a charge?

best of success with your testing. - Duane




Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: mdmiller on April 13, 2008, 04:27:23 AM
one additional thing after reading through some posts, I also question the effect of water on the rochelle salts and their crystal form.  somewhere earlier, someone brought up sodium silicate.  I'm not that far in the process yet, but I wonder if this would work, it would permit baking, and possibly not destroy the crystal. 

An old time product and commonly called waterglass, it is readily available and cheap (in keeping with the dirt-cheap aspect).  I get it at the local ceramics shop, they have a drum of it and refill my container.  Artists use it in clay instead of water, so that in firing the clay doesn't shrink.  I think I paid about $3 for a quart and have used it in some other experiments for waterproofing some building materials. 

Mixing waterglass with lime and portland you can achieve some funky products.  And that brings up another thought, the Lambertson E-dam WIN cell is based on cermet and sound similar to these Reid-Hutchinson devices.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on April 13, 2008, 05:44:55 AM
G'day all,

@mdmiller:  Your question "Has anyone determined if the crystals can be polarized without a charge?"
 A cell made with rochelle salt will be just the same as any other galvanic cell, taking on the polarity of the dissimilar metals used to make the electrodes.

To see if there was a self polarization effect in the crystals ( rochelle salt), I ran 2 tests on 9th april.
I made 2 cells, identical in every way, except for the polarity of the voltage applied during cooling.
Each cell comprised of an aluminium tube, rochelle salt and 0.01 gm NaCl and a central copper electrode.
The first cell was polarized in the conventional manner ie -ve to aluminium case and +ve to the copper electrode.
After polarization the Cu remained positive (1.44V) and over a period of 4 days had reduced to 0.710V.

The second cell was polarized with +ve to the aluminium case and the -ve to the Cu electrode.
After polarization the Cu post measured -16v. This voltage quickly diminished and swung positive.
2 minutes later it's voltage was 130.9mV. 24 hours later the voltage on the Cu post was up to+ 0.859V

The dissimilar metal electrodes alone have the power to determine the cells polarity, but whether they can polarize the molecular structure of the rochelle crystals I don't know. Ionic crystals need a helluva lot of voltage to turn them around.

See you later

Ian

Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Feynman on April 13, 2008, 05:52:02 AM
@ian, Koen
Great pictures guys!  Thanks for posting the results of your research.

As for me, I am in NYC building a Bedini motor.  ;)

Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: mdmiller on April 13, 2008, 05:14:10 PM
Ian-
thanks for sharing your research.  I made some rochelle salt last night, piece of cake, I think.  This morning I had this big chunk of crystal grains--see attached photo of this first lump of salt.  Hope this is what I should expect to get, if not, someone let me know please.  I had evaporated it down to about 75%, and set out in the garage where it was cold last night, about 30F.  I think the supercooling sped up the process.

I ran onto this interesting article on growing the crystal under enhanced magnetism.
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5858084.html

so with the remaining "tarter honey" after I remove the first salt chunk, I applied two geo magnets in alignment and concert with earth mag. I tried to position the neo's vertically to also achieve the natural magnetic dip.  This was about ten minutes ago, I'm running back and forth to this message as I type.
After reading thru the article at freepatents again, I realized it was probably better to simulate zero gravity and oppose the natural earth field. So I just ran into the garage to swap the magnetic force and surprise surprise --  The entire remaining honey in the jar had crystallized and it was warm, very warm, probably 100F.  The magnetism running through the material had produced quite some heat, considering that it is still below freezing in the garage.  Now I have a big solid chunk of salt.
-Duane



Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: mdmiller on April 13, 2008, 06:07:10 PM
opps, guess there's a 50KB limit, I'll attach again.  for scale, this is sitting on a coffee cup. - duane
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on April 14, 2008, 01:01:12 PM
An old time product and commonly called waterglass, it is readily available and cheap (in keeping with the dirt-cheap aspect).  I get it at the local ceramics shop, they have a drum of it and refill my container.  Artists use it in clay instead of water, so that in firing the clay doesn't shrink.  I think I paid about $3 for a quart and have used it in some other experiments for waterproofing some building materials.

Yes, we have mentioned waterglass before. In my experience, waterglass dries neatly if the surface area is large enough, or if you heat it hot enough,
about 200 degrees celcius should suffice to make it solidify nicely. But below that temperature and if the surface area is small in relation to the volume,
it takes forever to dry out and solidify completely. This is due to its water-proofing qualities. The stuff was used some decades ago to waterproof cellar
walls etc, and if applied to such a cellar wall it tends to form a nice dry and hard layer that is porous to water vapour but not to liquid water. In my experience,
when you use waterglass in cell mixtures, the mixture takes very long to dry properly. This appears to be due to the fact that the top layer of waterglass
evaporates its water quite quickly, then thickens and forms a sort of rubbery film on top of the cell contents, and that layer only allows very little water
to evaporate. I still have a cell here that I made over 3 months ago, and the waterglass "crystal" in it is still not entirely hardened and it is still a little "sticky"
when I touch it. Adding a very little bit of it to a mix instead of water does seem to work, although I am not sure if that really has much of an effect.
I guess it depends on what other materials you use in your cells, and since I tend to make most of my cells with a bit of silver sand or quartz in there,
the resultant "soup" when I boil it already contains quite a bit of silicate, so it may just be that the waterglass binds nicely with that.
By the way, although waterglass is a sodium silicate solution, sodium silicate does come in many forms beside waterglass. In fact, metal and silicate
compounds are many, and many are also quite easy to make. Boiling a mix of water and fine quartz sand and then adding NaOH in the right amounts
will produce a sodium silicate for example. (Watch out when you do it though, boiling mud contains silicic acid which is not something you want to get
on your skin at high temps, and obviously NaOH is also nasty stuff, so use caution.)

I did not know that it was used in clay... even though I know a few ceramic artists...
Does it not mess up the nice internal structure of the clay, thereby making the clay product more fragile?
I do know potters sometimes use it to waterproof their pottery...

Quote
Mixing waterglass with lime and portland you can achieve some funky products.
does it? Like what?
I know portland cement and gopolymers are interesting but I have not tried any in my cells yet,
although some cells do contain a mix that seems to be very similar to geopolymer binder, chemically speaking.

Quote
And that brings up another thought, the Lambertson E-dam WIN cell is based on cermet and sound similar to these Reid-Hutchinson devices.
In what way do you think it is similar? As far as I recall, the "E-dam" thing had to be pulsed with input current for it to operate? How is that similar
to a cell that needs no input and gives output?
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: mdmiller on April 14, 2008, 04:57:34 PM
I ran onto this at JH's blog and thought it would be good to preserve it, in case it disappeared from the blog.  Being new and not familiar with protocol, if this is wrong would the moderator please delete.

From: Dr Thorsten Ludwig
To: 'johnhutchison'
Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2008 1:40 PM
Subject: AW: fantastic

 ....I have reached home fine with the samples you made for us and am now experimenting with them.

The big one in a platic container about the size of an old film can is the best performer. Around .55 Volt and up to .15 mA. Another big one in a small silver plated pipe with a brass rod in the middle is having .15 Volt and give .01 mA. With a load of 50 kOhm the power slowly drops. The ones in the gun shells and in the cigarette filter I have not tested to much, but I have now set up nice measuring units that take long and accurate readings. I am now getting ready to activate the ones that give now volt at the moment (about half of the samples)

How do I do the activation on the ones with nearly no volt. In case of the cigarette filters there is no second wire so I have to contact them as well. Should I press a wisker or probe pin onto the cristlin substance.


Saturday, March 8, 2008      Posted by John Hutchison at 4:46 PM
....now to the POWER CELLS PLEASE TRY PURE DIRECT CURRENT ONTO WHISKERS.. YOU WANT TO PUT INSIDE TRY FIRST 12 VOLTS for i minute THEN FOR ONE SECOND TRY 10 000 VOLTS D.C NO HEAVY CURRENTS !!!! THESE CELLS SCAVENGE ENERGY FROM ALL THINGS EVEN THOUGHT FORMS AS IAM TOLD FROM ROLAND IN MUNCHEN PLUS OTHERS;;;
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on April 14, 2008, 05:15:19 PM
I have been thinking about this for a while now,
decided to put the question to you guys here:

Since this thread is increasingly about our own experiments with crystal cells,
and no new or really usefull input has been provided by Hutchison,
perhaps we should start a new thread titled "Crystal cell experiments"
instead of constantly bumping the Hutchison thread up...?
After all, JH has never posted anything here, and all the info from him
is vague or second/third hand info...
And there's a lot more info gathered here by us, the forum members, than
JH has ever given.

About the JH blog: I am very sceptical about anything coming from JH on
the subject of his cells, especially if he claims to be in contact with people
in Germany. After all, mr. Reid lives in Germany, and has been researching
crystal cell tech for more than a decade now, during which he has sought
contact with JH several times to discuss their seperate crystal cell experiments
and research approaches. Hutchison has apparently not been willing to
exchange info with Reid. Reid himself has been actively gathering proper
research data, incl. measurements by several different physicists (doctors &
professors), and including a recent time-wave influence test.
I have not seen any such data from Hutchison ever.
And since Hutchison also gives me complete radio silence as soon as I ask him
questions about his cells or tell him about mine, while Reid untill now has been
quite forthcoming with information (towards me at least), I am seriously inclined
to value Reids work a lot more than Hutchisons. So far Hutchison has not really
shown anything, he has just made a lot of noise.
If the info on his blog is correct, the cells he's making don't put out anywhere near
the 3V 3amps he bragged about before...  So even his own blog turns his
previous statements questionable now...
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: mdmiller on April 14, 2008, 06:02:29 PM
to @Koen1   (if this double-posts I'm sorry the website or my internet is acting wierd)

in reply to your question on sodium silicate, one interesting simple mix is wollastonite (calcium silicate) and sodium silicate (liquid form).  mix a tablespoon of wollastonite into a thick paste, pop in the microwave for a minute - forms a very nice lightweight insulative material, it has expanded quite a bit, not sure if it qualifies as a geopolymer, but it would make a good hot pad :)

one thing I noticed on Reid's cell in the pictures he shows (the 'D' sized cell) it looks like it is poured, dried (or cooked) then during this process expands.  note how the bottom of the cell has "puffed out" from the tube form, like making blueberry muffins.  Then the cell has been flipped over with the top of the muffin on the bottom of the cell.  This tells me that some component in the electrolyte has expanded - my rough estimates from measuring/estimating the volume in photoshop is about 12% expansion.  I'm guessing that is causing an air entrainment.  Now, are these little bubbles important ?
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on April 14, 2008, 07:45:41 PM
to @Koen1   (if this double-posts I'm sorry the website or my internet is acting wierd)
it's probably the website, I get it as well every now and then. Closing the browser, then restarting it and surfing back to www.overunity.com helps most of the time,
or at least it does on my end. But it is particularly annoying if it happens while you're posting a reply. ;)

Quote
in reply to your question on sodium silicate, one interesting simple mix is wollastonite (calcium silicate) and sodium silicate (liquid form).  mix a tablespoon of wollastonite into a thick paste, pop in the microwave for a minute - forms a very nice lightweight insulative material, it has expanded quite a bit, not sure if it qualifies as a geopolymer, but it would make a good hot pad :)
Hmm well ok, I'll have to try it sometime. Don't have any calcium silicate around at the moment but I think tossing some pure calcium into
my silicate "soup" should do the trick (with proper calculation of the amount, of course). So you're ading solid silicate eh?
Well I have noticed that waterglass can nicely bond silicate compounds, so it's not very surprising that it works out nicely with wollastonite.
It's not exactly the geopolymer stuff I was talking about, as that is generally an aluminosilicate compound with somewhere near equal amounts of Al and Si
in the silicate material. But what you describe sounds like a form of homemade calcite, so in that respect I think you're right in that it might make
a nice hot pad. :)
I recall from my waterglass experiments that mixing it with gypsum also resulted in a nice hard white material, lighter than gypsum and less crumbly.
Those cells never gave any proper output though, nor did my other attempts using calcium, so I didn't continue that line. Besides, gypsum is known to
be very porous and to absorb water from the air, and other experiments seemed to show gypsum is able to give a voltage but only until it has dried
out completely, and then the voltage drops to zero.

Quote
one thing I noticed on Reid's cell in the pictures he shows (the 'D' sized cell) it looks like it is poured, dried (or cooked) then during this process expands.  note how the bottom of the cell has "puffed out" from the tube form, like making blueberry muffins.  Then the cell has been flipped over with the top of the muffin on the bottom of the cell.  This tells me that some component in the electrolyte has expanded - my rough estimates from measuring/estimating the volume in photoshop is about 12% expansion.  I'm guessing that is causing an air entrainment.  Now, are these little bubbles important ?
I assume you are talking about the picture in his pdf portfolio? The one with the paper sticker on it?
Yes, that cell material has reacted in the tube. Yes, it forms bubbles while reacting. Yes, it does increase in volume a bit while reacting.
And as far as I know that cell was not turned upside down, but I am not entirely certain. That is one of his older cells and I have not seen it.
I have seen quite a number of his cells, but none of the ones I saw during my recent visit to him had that type of bulge at the bottom.
He and I have discussed our cell experiments quite extensively, and he has never mentioned turning his cells upside down. It may be that
he did upturn it for the photo, just to show a nice flat surface. But my guess is that it is either a bulge of welding material (used to seal the
bottom), or perhaps the bottom was not welded shut entirely and this bulge is just some of the cell material that got squeezed out during
the baking process. I am not sure.
In any case, the cells he showed me the other week don't have such a bulge, and I would not focus on it too much if I were you.
As for the bubbles, I think they are a result of the reaction and not intentional nor necessary. In my own cells I also get bubbles
sometimes, but I try to get them out during the cooking&baking process.
Also, and I am sorry that I cannot give more details at present, I do know that the method Reid used to produce his cells has evolved
over the years, and he used a different process around the time that picture was taken. I won't give a complete description, save to say
that that process was not very easy and some of the cells apparently exploded due to pressure buildup inside the cells, which were
completely sealed. Clearly there was expansion going on with no room to expand. ;D

So, quick recap: yes, the stuff he used in the cell type shown on that picture did expand during the "baking" process, and the bubbles
are also a result of the "baking" process. No, the bubbles are not important.

In his latest cell experiments, Reid has been using an Argon atmosphere to make the cells. This is obviously intended to minimise any effect
air might have on the reactions inside the cell. As he is still working on them, it is not yet clear if that has a positive effect on output.
We also talked about other gases that might or might not effect the cell material...

Take a look at those 3 cells he's holding in that small pic of the barometer/thermometer demo setup I posted.
Now that is not the clearest pic and I will see about posting some more, but it does show what his latest
cell types look like. They look quite similar to the few I posted: just a metal tube with a layer of wax over it
to seal it from the air, with the cell material inside it. No material bubbled over the edge, and if all went well
during the production process also no bubbles inside it (or at least as little as possible; in my own versions
I try to get all bubbles out and I believe Reid does the same). (That pinkish stuff is the wax)

Now I have a few different cell type "lines" that I experiment on, so I can't really say none of my cells have bubbles.
But my "Reid cell" line has hardly any to none. My "metal oxide" line on the other hand, is very hard to keep
bubble-free, as a number of the oxides react quite aggressively inside the cells and the stuff foams and bubbles
like crazy sometimes. Of course it depends on what oxides I have mixed in, how much of them is in there,
what other materials are in the mix, how much water is in there, and how hot I "bake" them. But in general
those cells bullbe quite a bit and regularly they will start to solidify in that bubbly phase, so the material inside
turn out quite porous. In those cells I also try to keep the bubbling to a minimum, as I have the strong feeling
that bubbles are not good. Obviously bubbles are not beneficial to the materials final crystal lattices, or structural
matrix if you will, and this has great effects on the electrodynamic properties and processes inside the material.
So there's a little more on the bubbles for you. ;) I would say: get rid of bubbles if you can. :)
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: mdmiller on April 14, 2008, 08:13:01 PM
@Koen1, thanks for the good info.  I'm not sure how much your are able to share, but the older cell has some interesting things going on.

May I ask, if you might be aware if these design parameters still being followed ?
  The casing is very thick, about 1/8"  (I'm assuming aluminum)
  There is some type of lining inside the casing, possible impregnated, thus the crystals adjacent. Is this a fiberboard material?
  The electrode is shaped like a paddlewheel (whoa, is that interesting after reading his COP paper) plus the electrode has one weak leg (thinner)
  The overall cell dimensions follow the law of squares
  The relation between the inner casing diameter and the electrode diameter follow the law of squares.

I've attached a diagram, many thanks for your guidance - Duane
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on April 14, 2008, 08:53:01 PM
Okay, first of all, as far as I know the pic you attached is of a different cell than the bulgy&bubbly one referred to earlier.
This cell has the typical "new" folded central electrode; Reid has started to use such shaped electrodes not very long ago,
at most about a year or two ago if I am not mistaken.
Also, you can see that the cell material is a lot less bubbly. Just fyi. ;)

The casing is very thick, about 1/8"  (I'm assuming aluminum)
Not strictly; the thickness of the metal should be enough to stay rigid during the production process,
and if you use materials that can react with the tube metal you should take that into consideration
when obtaining tubing (and take a slightly thicker tube to make sure it holds).
Also not necessarily aluminium, I have also seen cells made with iron tubing and with copper tubing.
The trick is to "tune" the metal to the material mix and other electrode metals used.
But in his older cells he did indeed use aluminium.

Quote
There is some type of lining inside the casing, possible impregnated, thus the crystals adjacent. Is this a fiberboard material?
No lining is used as far as I know. I think the boundary layer between the cell material and the metal may have a different colour than the
rest of the material, as I have seen this in several of my own cells. I shall ask Reid to make sure.

Quote
The electrode is shaped like a paddlewheel (whoa, is that interesting after reading his COP paper) plus the electrode has one weak leg (thinner)
This is not really a requirement, but more an advancement ;) Reid found that such "cross" or "star" electrodes appear to result in higher output voltage.
This does however depend on the other metals used, and on the purity of the electrode. Most of his older cells have simple rods as central electrodes,
while most of his newer cells have such cross or star shapes. As far as I know the one thin leg is not important; it is probably just a result of the folding
of the electrode, and if may even be possible that the second half of that leg is there but does not protrude from the material... most I have seen have equal legs.
 
Quote
The overall cell dimensions follow the law of squares
The relation between the inner casing diameter and the electrode diameter follow the law of squares.
I am not sure. I know that the very early cells were quite large, about width of a coffee mug and twice the height.
There were even a few "artillery shell" sized ones. But quite a few of the newer ones are quite small.
I have one of Reids newer cells here for testing, it is only about the size of a thimble. :)
I do not know of any necessary "law of the squares" dimension specifications.
Can you please elaborate on how exactly the cells follow the law of the squares?
(could it be that I missed that completely? ;))

hope that helps. If there is anything that is not clear or that you would like more details on,
ask me and I will ask Reid next time we speak, should be later this week.
:)
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: mdmiller on April 14, 2008, 10:00:37 PM
@Koen1, thanks for the info

the image was from a test on one of Reid's cells, sawn open, that was on the internet.  the weak leg looks intentional and I've seen it in other OU devices and since it's internal where the cell was sawn, it appears as an intended imbalance.  I think that's the foundation of OU.

Has he found the 6 legs of the electrode preferrable, Barbat had 6 coils in his generator, I've seen the number 6 come up in other OU devices.,

the lining in the image at least appears to be of some different material.  there is a distinct and consistent thickness to it whatever it is.

I'll back away from the law of squares statement for now and just refer to the basic dimensions as fib ratios, the cell dimension is 30mm:50mm overall,   = .6
the electrode diameter to the inner diameter of the casing is  15.7:24.36  = .64
the golden rectangle, the perfect harmonic, the venus synodic, the pyramids, ....etc.

Also, the diameter dimension of the paddlewheel electrode is extremely close, within fractions of a mm, to the wavelength harmonic used to resonate in your microwave, just an observation.  Is this dimension sized to some harmonic, maybe of electron spin or the frequency of the silicate electrolyte or something like that?

many many thanks I appreciate your guidance, -Duane
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on April 14, 2008, 10:33:21 PM
Hey dang, you're right, there appear to be fibronacci series going on here... :D
I need to ask Reid about that, as he hasn't mentioned it yet... But surely it is not
coincidental. ;)

You have some good points, I will talk to Reid and see what he says about the
one thin leg, the 6-legged star electrode, and the other stuff.

Could very well be that he planned those fib dimensions all along, and never told
me because I just happened to have picked very similar dimensions on pure gut feeling...
Ok not entirely gut feeling, but I can't explain how I got to those dimensions
in a very logical way, there was a lot of gut feeling involved ;)
Thanks for pointing it out to me, I'm really impressed. :)
Would like to hear your "law of the squares" interpretation if that goes any deeper than the
golden mean relations...

Oh, and yes, the pic is of one of Reids test cells. But it is a relatively recent one,
as that pic was only added before posting his latest april 2008 version of his portfolio.
His full portfolio can be downloaded at http://www.vakuumenergie.de/doc/Portfolio_0408.pdf (http://www.vakuumenergie.de/doc/Portfolio_0408.pdf).
I assume you are working towards your own batch of experimental cells?
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on April 15, 2008, 01:46:57 AM
G'day all,

Some very interesting info floating about, well done all.
@mdmiller: Thanks for the posts.
@Koen: I agree, any info coming from JH these days has to be viewed with a bit of caution. However I'm interested in the tests
Dr Ludwig has done on some of his cells.
Quote
"The big one in a platic container about the size of an old film can is the best performer. Around .55 Volt and up to .15 mA. Another big one in a small silver plated pipe with a brass rod in the middle is having .15 Volt and give .01 mA. With a load of 50 kOhm the power slowly drops. The ones in the gun shells and in the cigarette filter I have not tested to much, but I have now set up nice measuring units that take long and accurate readings. I am now getting ready to activate the ones that give now volt at the moment (about half of the samples)"

I'm specifically looking at the " .15V @ 0.01 mA cell and "with a load of 50Kohms power slowly drops"
I'm going to compare  this with my Pyrites cell.
At this time the pyrites cell is holding at .23Volts @ 0.025mA with a 15Kohm load. If I remove the load the voltage quickly rises to
1.283 Volts.
I'm going to revisit the formula for this one. That would put me back with tourmaline. :)
Hmmm  very interesting.

@Koen, again:  :D In your extensive archive, do you have any informatiom about the actual test results obtained by TT Brown with his
tungsten carbide battery/electret. I can't seem find any reference to voltage and current output after polarization.

Now fingers crossed, lets hope I don't have to type this again, theres something funny going on with this web site.

Catch you later

Ian



Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on April 15, 2008, 02:36:59 PM
@Koen: I agree, any info coming from JH these days has to be viewed with a bit of caution. However I'm interested in the tests
Dr Ludwig has done on some of his cells.
Yes, of course I will not dismiss test data on Hutchisons cells, that is interesting and usefull info.
It does strike me as a bit odd that JH did apparently give that Ludwig fellow cells to test, but does not
reply to any emails with questions about them... But that does not mean Ludwigs tests are not interesting. :)

Quote
I'm specifically looking at the " .15V @ 0.01 mA cell and "with a load of 50Kohms power slowly drops"
I'm going to compare  this with my Pyrites cell.
At this time the pyrites cell is holding at .23Volts @ 0.025mA with a 15Kohm load. If I remove the load the voltage quickly rises to
1.283 Volts.
I'm going to revisit the formula for this one. That would put me back with tourmaline. :)
Hmmm  very interesting.
Ha :D that's what I thought as well. Plus, that type of output seems to be much closer to the cells we're making than
the claimed 3V3A output... So perhaps the reason for John being so secretive is simply that we are getting too close
for his liking eh? ;)

Quote
@Koen, again:  :D In your extensive archive, do you have any informatiom about the actual test results obtained by TT Brown with his
tungsten carbide battery/electret. I can't seem find any reference to voltage and current output after polarization.
I shall don my miners cap and start digging for you. :)

Quote
Now fingers crossed, lets hope I don't have to type this again, theres something funny going on with this web site.
Hmmyes, there seems to be something wrong the past couple of days eh?
Here's a trick: after you have typed your reply, do a quick ctrl+a followed by ctrl+c, and only then press "post".
That way you at least have all of your text if the site chooses to crash on you, and you can simply
paste it in a new reply window. You had probably thought of that already and I only mention it just in case
you hadn't. ;)
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: mdmiller on April 15, 2008, 10:35:24 PM
I am curious if any of you making your own rochelle salts have tried a cell assembly while the mix is still honey.  In other words, using the honey for the mix vehicle.  Since the super-saturated honey doesn't contain much water after crystalizing, at least the stuff I made seemed fairly dry once the salt had formed it could be dried out with the crystals forming in the mix and without having to apply too much heat.  From what I understand, too much heat will impact the piezo nature of the salt.  I would evaporate the honey down, add the remaining exotic ingredients and load the cell.  I'd probably stick it in the fridge where the super-cooled crystals will form quickly.  Other options would be to add neo mags to polarize which seems to get the crystals to form quickly (although there seems to be some type of exothermic reaction that suddenly takes place), and maybe put a 'C' clamp on the ends and crank it down to pressurize the crystal.  Then pop in a low-temp oven to remove the remaining moisture and seal up with paraffin. Welcome any feedback including 'that is a dumb idea.' - Duane
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on April 16, 2008, 12:49:30 AM
G'day all,

@Duane That's the dumbest idea I've ever heard.... I'll give it a go  ;D ;D ;D
Actually that would be a very interesting experiment to perform. I'll run some tests this week.
God I hope I get a life by Christmas. ;D
One thing I do know is that rochelle salt crystals will not form in a sodium silicate solution, it just produces a black precipitate.

The only major problem I can see with this method is the drying time. Any excess heat after the crystals have formed in the matrix may compromise their structure. But until it is tested, we can't be sure. Keep them ideas coming mate. :)


Yesterday I re-made a pyrites cell using exactly the same ratios as the first. Only instead of water in the mix I used molten rochelle salt. Also I made both positive and negative electrodes out of aluminium. That takes out the dissimilar metals factor.

Well what do you know, the voltage and current turned out to be the same as the first cell.
If nothing else it means these things can be duplicated.(test results )

Ok I'm off to make a "wet" cell. catch you later.

Ian


Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: AbbaRue on April 16, 2008, 06:27:58 AM
Read my post on homemade diodes.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=612.new;topicseen#new
Using aluminum for both plates could cause the cell to suddenly stop working because of the diode effect.
Perhaps a better approach would be to take advantage of the diode effect and use Stainless Steel and aluminum.
And that way if there is any AC from the piezoelectric effect it will get filtered out as well.
It's difficult to avoid the diode effect when you consider that many oxides are semiconductors.
Zinc oxide, aluminum oxide, and copper oxide are.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on April 16, 2008, 12:03:09 PM
G'day all, and what a day it was.

Made 2 cells, one with my pyrites mix and the other with just quartz sand  and concentrated precrystaline rochelle solution.
 The body of the sand cell has hardend but there is a pool of liquid on top with crystals forming in it.
 
I had to suspend the Cu electrode into the body of the pyrites cell because the mix remained fluid for some time. It has begun to crystalize and become quite firm. Now we wait.

@AbbaRue:   Even if you use the same metal for the electrodes only one will become oxidized because of the polarization voltage.
The achilles heel of these crystal batteries is the galvanic reaction associated with dissimilar metal electrodes. A galvanic voltage can mask any real crystal battery activity for months possibly years.  Even with my best cells one has to wonder what percentage of the output could be due to residual galvanic action.

To minimise this I tend to use same metal electrodes, however, depending on the mix, it is possible due to ion migration to end up with two dissimilar plates shortly after the polarizing voltage has been applied. I proved this with my Bentonite clay mix when  the small amount of copper dopant migrated through the matrix and deposited itself on the Aluminium casing.

This is why I feel preconditioning the electrodes first is very important.

Liquid diodes are good... a liquid lunch is better   ;D ;D ;D

All the best

Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Phil7218 on April 16, 2008, 12:32:13 PM
@mdmiller Rochelle salt is a ferroelectricum, that means it can hold permanent charge like a permanent magnet can hold magnetism. If you want to polarise the rochelle salt you have to warm it up over its curie temperature, for rochelle salt it's 24 °C, and then you let it cool down while HV is applied on the crystals (warning rochelle salt has two curie points -18 °C and 24 °C). With HV I mean 10 - 25 kV. You can easily  generate HV with a flyback transformer and a simply built up circuit. http://old.4hv.org/index.php?board=18;action=display;threadid=1723 (http://old.4hv.org/index.php?board=18;action=display;threadid=1723)
You can find flybacks in old TV's or monitors, I don't know your local electronic suppliers, but you should also be able to buy them somewhere. Don't be afraid of the HV, If you don't touch anything or just with long insulating things while operating nothing harmful will happen to you.

@AbbaRue Al2O3 is no semiconductor it's a very good isolator. What you are doing is electrolytic rectifying. If you want to improve that you should use sulfur acid instead of a baking soda solution, because baking soda reacts alkaline and destroys the Al2O3-layer of the Aluminium which is important  for electrolytic rectifying. Zinc oxid and Copper oxid are indeed semiconductors, but that has less to do with electrolytic things, that's a different process. Many compounds of transition metalls are semiconducters, like Pyrit, Galena, Hämatit, Magnetit, Rutil ... In old detector radios a Pyrit or Galena crystals with a copper wire put on the crystal were used as diodes. They were simple schottky diodes.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on April 16, 2008, 05:17:34 PM
Thanks Phil. But we know this already. ;)

And I may be having a dumb stroke here, but what is the difference between
using freshly made but not yet solidified homemade Rochelle salt, and
using ready-made Rochelle salt in molten form ?  ???
Seems like the difference between water and molten ice to me...

I mean, and please correct me if I'm wrong here, to make Rochelle
aka Seignette salt aka potassium sodium tartrate, you first heat
the potassium bitartrate in some water, then add the sodium carbonate
to the hot solution, untill it no longer fizzes when you add it, and then
you leave it to cool and solidify into a chunk of Rochelle salt... right?
So now, if the solution has stopped fizzing but is still liquid, it is simply
molten Rochelle salt with some water in it.
I fail to see how that is different from taking the solidified salt and melting it...
Except of course the water content, but that's the only difference I see...

I can imagine that different reactions can occur and different compounds may form
if we were to mix all the other ingredients with the potassium bitartrate
solution before we add the sodium carbonate... Although it is of course
equally possible that the stuff then no longer turns into Rochelle salts ;)

What am I missing? :)
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on April 16, 2008, 07:22:07 PM
G'day all,

@Koen: On the face of it there should be no difference between using molten salt as opposed to the newly prepared stuff.
The little test I have going at the moment will tell us ( in a month or two  ;D). A quick check under the microscope should show us
if cooling molten salt forms similar crystal structure as "virgin " crystals. Might make a difference  ;)
Anyway as I said, we'll have to wait. This test has novelty value only at this time.

Now about mixing all the ingredients together before the sodium carbonate...... Hmmm   ;D ;D

See you later

Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: AbbaRue on April 16, 2008, 07:40:34 PM
@Phil
I was using the info on the following link as a basis for stating that aluminum oxide is a semiconductor.
http://home.earthlink.net/~lenyr/ntype-nr.htm
He made a homemade tunnel diode by placing a steal wire against a piece of aluminum.
He even includes an oscilliscope picture.
Aluminum oxide is also known as Sapphire, and Sapphire is another natural crystal
like quartz that can be used to make crystal oscillators.
I know Sapphire and Quartz are both good insulators,
so perhaps something else is going on there.

I'm working on a cell of my own, but it uses different compounds then others are using here.
So not to throw off this forum I will make measurements first before posting my findings.
My cells are taking a while to dry as well. I am getting over 700mV.
But I think it might be chemical output.

Keep up the good work, and hopefully together we can get a cell that works.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: mdmiller on April 16, 2008, 08:28:59 PM
@Ian
there apparently is an "ammonium rochelle salt" (ARS).  ever tried it?
according to abstract briefs it apparently has some anomalies where it's a and b axes have different thermal vibrations which is different from regular RS.  regular RS and ARS crystals mixed together could have some interesting properties.  I have no idea how it's made, haven't found chef emeril's recipe yet. - Duane
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: mdmiller on April 17, 2008, 01:33:26 AM
I don't mean to keep loading this forum with trivia, I ran onto an interesting article -- possibly you've all seen this already.

http://www.disclosureproject.org/PDF-Documents/EPWoutofboxBrief.pdf

Dr Bearden does a great job covering technologies/theories used in the crystal cell - thanks Duane


Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 17, 2008, 07:34:18 AM
@ AbbaRue:

Sapphire is single crystal al203.  They are not interchangeable with regular aluminum oxide.  Same but very different.  That would be like saying the pure carbon in your grill is diamond.  Totally different properties.  Ruby, is also al203 with a slight contamination of chromium.  All this stuff is related.  Sand is quite different from single crystal quartz crystals.  You may already know this but I wanted to make sure the others understood.

Bill
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: AbbaRue on April 17, 2008, 07:43:21 AM
I mentioned that I was working on a cell of my own, and I didn't want to make this thread confusing with 2 different systems.
So I started a new thread for those interested in this new type of crystal cell.
Here is the link for those interested.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,4510.msg90221.html#msg90221

@Duane
This may be the stuff you are looking for when you mentioned Ammonium Rochell Salt.
It is based on Ammonium and is dirt cheap.

I will keep up with this thread too, but my main focus right now is on these new crystals.
Till later Harold.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on April 17, 2008, 10:48:11 AM
@AbbaRue,

Why in the world did you set up a whole new thread for one type of crystal cell?
Have you missed the fact that we've been discussing various types of crystal cells here?
Don't get me wrong, I think it's cool that you've come up with a crystal cell version that
uses a different base material that we have not really discussed here yet,
but after having discussed quite a bunch of different materials for use in our cell
experiments and doing so in this thread, I don't really see why one such variation
needs its own seperate thread...

I even asked, only last week, what you guys thought of setting up a seperate "Crystal Cell Experiments"
thread, to post our more recent and much less Hutchison-related cell experiments...
... but nobody ever replied to that question.
And now you set up a whole new thread just for one cell variation?

Well of course you may do so, but I thought it might be a better idea to keep our experiments
in one thread... not in the least as not to clutter this OU forum...
But also because slight variation or not, the basic idea is still the same. It's still a crystal cell,
it's still based on the same theory.

Well, anyways, I'm looking into the possibility of setting up our very own Crystal Cell Experimenters Forum,
and if that takes off there will be room for every cell variation to have its own thread. :D
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on April 17, 2008, 11:20:32 AM
@ AbbaRue:

Sapphire is single crystal al203.  They are not interchangeable with regular aluminum oxide.  Same but very different.  That would be like saying the pure carbon in your grill is diamond.  Totally different properties.  Ruby, is also al203 with a slight contamination of chromium.  All this stuff is related.  Sand is quite different from single crystal quartz crystals.  You may already know this but I wanted to make sure the others understood.

Bill

Yep, you're right. It's all related. Tourmaline, a typical pyroelectric, is also basically a compound of aluminium oxide, silica, and some other elements.

But sand is not necessarily all that different from quartz.

Sand is SiO2 with pollutants, quartz is SiO2, both are crystalline form unlike their cousin chalcedony. But you need to get the right type of sand.
"quartz sand" or "silver sand" is of course more pure and basically are tiny quartz crystals. Quartz powder is used in ceramics and glazing sometimes,
and it is fine white dust. Quartz sand is also very fine and white. They react the same with things like NaOH.
It just depends on what sand you've got. Obviously red sand contains a lot of hematite, black sand often contains a lot of carbon and/or iron again,
etc.
Well I'm sure you know this, but I just wanted to point it out. ;)
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 17, 2008, 05:22:21 PM
Well, what I said was sand is quite different from single crystal quartz, not different from quartz.  The crystal structure is quite different and it has different properties, that's what I meant. And sand or quartz was never used in the technical ceramics we used to deal with.  Dish ware and stuff like that, sure, but the technical ceramics were fired at way too high a temperature for anything other than almost pure al203.

I have seen the term electret used here and there on this topic.  I had no idea what that was so I looked it up. This is fascinating stuff!   It sounds like they use dielectric material, which when treated with heat and polarized, puts out electricy.  I want to learn more about this.

Bill
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Nihilanth on April 18, 2008, 09:11:46 AM
Has anyone come up with a theory yet as to why some of the ingredients are needed? Or what ways the ingredients interact with each other?
I know germanium is useful as a diode, and so was Galena.

I've been looking into this as much as I can, but I only seem to get Diode+(pyro/photo/piezoelectric)+Pyrite. Am I missing something?  :'(
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on April 18, 2008, 11:34:28 AM
@Bill: well, the electret element is quite important in any crystal cell, I think...
That's why all the materials that are and could be used as a base dielectric
are electret materials of a sort. "polarisable dielectric" is a term you could use for
them, and it just so happens many (if not most) of them are also piezo- and/or
pyro- electric, and of course to a degree ferroelectric in molten state.
If you want to know more about the crystal cell dielectric materials, for which
a few guys here now use Rochelle salts, and I still like quartz and sand-based
silicates, it may be worth looking into mr T. townsend Brown's work in
petrovoltaics and his "geolophysical sensor".
Coincidence that John H mentions one of his buddies running off with a
crystal cell of his and making millions pinpointing oil wells by using it
as a geological anomaly detector? I think not. Methinks: simply copying
TT Brown. ;)
anyways, here's a couple of links, and please note the extensive use of
known electret materials in Browns "petrovoltaic cells":
http://www.rexresearch.com/brown4/brown4.htm (http://www.rexresearch.com/brown4/brown4.htm)
http://qualight.com/petro/index.htm#articles (http://qualight.com/petro/index.htm#articles)

@Nihilanth: Well, yes and no I guess...
The T.T. Brown stuff helps to understand the pyro-/piezo-electric electret material,
as well as the addition of various compounds to enhance internal polarisation.
The diode function is an addition. If proper materials are used, think along the lines
of non-intrinsic semiconductors (semicond compounds), these could be used
instead of non-conductive compounds, thereby maintaining the function of
the polarised compound component but adding possible rectifying characteristics.
Mind you, pyrite is just another semiconductive material that was used in
the old point-contact diodes (cat-whisker crystal detectors) just like galena.
Germanium only works as a diode with the proper p and n dopant and the right
junction zone between them, while galena en pyrite only work when used as
point-contact diodes with the contact on a "sweet spot" on the crystal...
To quote one of the few parts of Wikipedia that still seems to be mostly correct:
Quote from: Wikipedia:cat-whisker detector
"...is simply a relatively primitive and unstable metal?semiconductor point-contact junction forming a Schottky barrier diode. ...The most common crystal used is galena, used without treatment directly as it is mined. Galena with good detecting properties is rare and has no reliable visual characteristics distinguishing it from galena samples with poor detecting properties. ...Because the relatively high temperature of tin-lead solder can damage many crystals, the crystal was often mounted in a low melting point (well under 200 degrees F) metal such as Wood's metal. One surface was left exposed to allow contact with the cat's whisker wire.
Other minerals were also used; significant among them was iron disulfide (pyrite or "fools gold").
So it's pretty clear why JH named those materials...

I find this following quote from that same wiki page very usefull, and I'm quite surprised to see it on wiki to be honest ;) :
Quote
Many of the earlier noteworthy mineral detectors did not use the cat's whisker configuration, such as vitreous silicon, silicon carbide (carborundum) and a zincite-bornite rock-to-rock junction.
I think this explains quite nicely why I feel silicate compounds are a good candidate for crystal cells: you don't need to poke around the surface of the
crystalline material to find the "sweet spot" before you can get nice rectification.
But they do tend to be a lot less sensitive than galena and its younger even more sensitive brother germanium...


Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 18, 2008, 05:51:29 PM
@ Koen1:

Thanks for the info and the links, I will read them.  I am a little familiar with some of TT Brown's work but not in this area.  Once again, it just shows how much stuff is out there that I don't know.  You would think that the battery people might have had engineers in their R&D department working on things like this.  (Maybe they have and are silent?)  Thanks again.

Bill
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: sutra on April 18, 2008, 09:00:15 PM
@ all

All your posts are a good source of ideas....
I was thinking, once my galena crystal arrives, to build a cell composed as follows:

Rochelle salt
Galena dust (600 grit) ground native crystal
Quartz dust(600 grit) out of pure amethyst faceting process.
Pyrite dust(600 grit) ground native crystal

and some nice electonic kick through the material...

as electrode an unusually long copper rod (working also as antenna)....

I'm just waiting for the Galena....

Update to electrically interfered Rochelle Salts:

I submitted the disolved salt to a dc current of about 30V, the container is a steel spray cream can and positive copper electrode.

The salt is structurally identical to the normal one but dark maroon in colour.

It is taking also substantially loger time to dry completely

I'll let you know if there is any difference in practical use

Cheers
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: mdmiller on April 18, 2008, 10:55:29 PM
Is anyone using any software for modeling the electrical characteristics of their mixes?

There are a few technical evaluation reports out on cells that (supposedly) work well along with some limited info on the electrical characteristics of the "crystal".  Establishing a mix initially with similar electrical performance characteristics would be a good beginning.  NIST has some semiconductor design software packages at their site that are public domain, I'm not familiar with them.

thanks for any advice - Duane

Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: AbbaRue on April 19, 2008, 05:38:57 AM
Does anyone know were I can find a chart of curie temperatures for the various piezoelectric materials?
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: MrSpates on April 20, 2008, 07:29:32 PM
I don't know if this is the right place to ask this question, but I'm looking for a high voltage power supply that puts out pure DC in the range from say 5k to 30k. The only ones I have ever seen are AC powered and put out a pulsed current. I guess for pure DC I'd have to find something that worked off of batteries?  Anybody know where I could find such a thing?
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: AbbaRue on April 21, 2008, 04:50:49 AM
Find an old computer monitor thay still turns on.  Many times the cables go bad on monitors and replacing them is
to expensive to they just get thrown out.  The high voltage terminal going to the picture tube can be used
for a high voltage power supply of pure dc, just build a HV cap using a jar with foil on the inside and outside.
Check out the JLN Labs website for more info.
http://jnaudin.free.fr/ 
The lifter section has many examples of people that used one.


Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: MrSpates on April 21, 2008, 05:42:45 AM
Thanks, I've seen those, didnt know they were non-pulsed. Appreciate it.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on April 21, 2008, 02:23:11 PM
G'day all,

@AbbaRue:  Sometimes there is no need for a HV cap, the picture tube itself acts as a capacitor.
You just have to attatch another lead under the anode sucker. Be careful, they bite. ;D
Good info at JLN labs, thanks.


Best regards

Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: hyparh on April 21, 2008, 07:22:33 PM
Hi all :) You can use this scheme to achieve high voltage: http://www.powerlabs.org/flybackdriver.htm
It's very easy to build and works stable. I made my own of this and it gives about 12kV of DC (I use DC flyback from old monitor which has internal HV diode).
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on April 21, 2008, 08:41:04 PM
Yeah great. But to be honest, the problem is not finding schematics on how to build one,
the problem is the building itself. My skill at soldering circuitry is not the greatest ;)
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: jeanna on April 21, 2008, 08:58:39 PM
I bought a wimhurst machine ($89) which makes sparks according to how far apart the little steel balls are placed.

Mine makes sparks from tiny to about 3.5 inches for a jolt of ~ 75Kv.
It would be easy to keep a good spark pulsing for 10 minutes. It is easy to turn etc.

I was talking with Ian and he suggested that this might work for you guys in this thread. I like it because it is not plugged into the wall so, I won't kill myself. (I got a big jolt the first day so I know I can survive what it puts out.!  ;D )

jeanna

Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on April 21, 2008, 09:41:16 PM
Lol :D Jeanna the 75kV lady ;) ;D

that is not a bad idea, and to be honest I have considered getting an old
electrostatic generator... I was thinking of a Van De Graaf generator,
but a Wimshurst will work too.
I've actually got a little 9V DC powered hV generator lying around,
but it gives 1kV pulses and not only is that quite little, it's also pulsed...
I thought of using a simple hV diode+resistor+capacitor setup to
get out a less pulsed and somewhat more constant output, but
I'm still left with it only being 1kV... Plus the darn thing doesn't
indicate which output wire is which (+ or -), and I've already killed
another multimeter by exposing it to too high a voltage...

... ah well, I'm not even sure we really need many kilovolts...
I have noticed that most of my cells don't seem to polarise very
differently whether I use only 9V or 230V (simple rectified gridpower).
The end result is a very similar voltage in most cells,
and I can't really say I see much of an amperage difference either.
But then again, I have mainly been making silicate and quartz and/or
metal oxide based cells recently, so I can only speak for those
of course.
;)
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 21, 2008, 10:19:50 PM
@ Koen1

You can make your own like Walter Lewin did at MIT.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=oY1eyLEo8_A (http://youtube.com/watch?v=oY1eyLEo8_A)

Just a few buckets of water and there you go.

Bill
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on April 21, 2008, 11:13:32 PM
Hey thanks Bill :)
Walter is great, but I didn't know that particular video yet.
... fun to see that a Dutch profesor is one of the most popular at MIT ;D
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Pirate88179 on April 21, 2008, 11:59:10 PM
I love that guy.  I am taking his entire on-line video courses for free.  I am learning a lot.  I have not seen the video with the water buckets in a while but I believe he was getting 20,000-30,000 volts out of it.  Could probably be built for maybe $10.00 or less.  Energy is everywhere.

Bill
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on April 22, 2008, 12:10:38 AM
:)
Actually, the water bucket setup is a simple version of the Kelvin waterdrop electrostatic generator.
It's one of my personal favorites. As I recall the story was that (lord) Kelvin wanted to simulate
a thunderstorm and came up with this setup. I've seen versions with 'baskets' woven of copper wire
instead and stacked four high, that could generate really big sparks and quite a bit faster than
this one too. I'ts an idea to build one...
...may have to, can't seem to find any affordable good quality hV adjustable/lab power sources...
:)
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: mdmiller on April 22, 2008, 08:35:44 PM
ran onto this which might be of interest to someone adjusting mixes.:

TT Brown's prelim patent on his battery refers to using "high-K" dielectric material in the core/crystal. 

Wiki refers to "zirconium silicates" as high-K.  ZircoPax is about 2/3rds zirconium silicates, the other 1/3rd is silicon dioxide.  It's available at your local ceramics/clay studio supply house, used as a clay opacifier, and around here runs about $7 a pound in small quantities.

My question is how would you combine this with a "massive high-density semi-conductor" .  The most readily available would be lead .  In Brown's journal Vol. 4 pg 33-34 he shows his gravity sensors where the emf potential is 12.5 times greater without an aluminum case.  Interesting.  Also he questions here whether a lead core would provide gravito-electric induction.  Possibly someone has already headed down this road, if so is there anything to share ?  many thanks - Duane
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Feynman on April 23, 2008, 12:17:40 AM
Thanks duane... I wondered about the high-K material myself .

Too bad they are banning lead in everything, right? 
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on April 28, 2008, 10:42:10 PM
Alright guys,
I've been talking to several suppliers and am considering to set up a little service...
Quite a few people have shown interest in the crystal cell thing, but most often
obtaining the right materials is a problem. Hence the service I'm thinking to set up:

Who would (potentially) be interested in a Crystal Cell Experimenters Kit? :)
They will be available for mail order through me, if all goes well.

Of course, if it does take off a nice website/webshop will follow very soon,
but since you guys over here seem genuinely interested in cell experiments,
I thought I'd get your feedback.

The basic kit I am planning to use as standard would contain:
- 5 or 10 aluminium cells (cylinders with one end sealed) of 3cm diameter and 6cm length
- same number of electrode rods, copper, aluminium, or both.
- chemical compounds for cell experiment use, in amounts of n grams:
  a) Rochelle salt
  b) several aluminosilicate clays (powder)
  c) iron pyrite (mineral)
  d) galena (mineral)
  e) several metal oxides (powder)
  f) several rare metals

And of course if there is enough demand, other types of metal could be used for the cells,
like iron or stainless steel, and the cylinders could be larger or smaller.

Please give your opinions on this?
What ingredients would you like to see in these kits, and how much of these ingredients
would you want in there?
How many cells would you want in the kits, and are there any specific ingredients you
would like to see in there? Are the cell dimensions to your liking or would you prefer
larger ones? I was already thinking of offering 3 sizes: S/M/L...
Any suggestions for any of the kit components are welcome! :)

when I have your feedback, I can start to work out a preliminary price estimate, and we
can see who would really be interested in purchasing such kits for that price.

Hope to hear a lot of replies. ;) ;D
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: AbbaRue on April 29, 2008, 12:07:39 PM
I am looking for something to make button cells.
Instead of Long and skinny, I need short and wide.
The wider the cell the more plate surface area, thus the more amperage.
Maybe 2 or 3 cm wide and 1cm deep.
Then some type of slug that fits inside with a little gap around it.
Something like those 3V flat batteries used for computer CMOS.

Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: jeanna on April 29, 2008, 06:45:02 PM
I am looking for something to make button cells.
Instead of Long and skinny, I need short and wide.
AbbaRue,
Whatever Sutra was using made me think of a beer bottle top. Maybe that is exactly what he was using? Check out his earliest posts. I think you will find it there.

jeanna
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on April 29, 2008, 11:46:51 PM
G'day all,

@AbbaRue: I made a number of button cells using beer bottle caps as one electrode and 5 cent pieces for the other, they fit quite nicely. I think I managed to make 15 before I passed out  ;D ;D.

Just a quick update.  Some time back I made a couple of cells using just sand and cold rochelle salt solution. No heat was used and crystalization took place at room temp and about a week . I didn't expect it to do anything but I've just tested it and it's sitting at 0.293V. Admittedly this is without load. I'll give it a stress test after work.  The outer electrode was made using a cigar tube. Bought that at the same time as the beer.  ;D

Has anyone else made a cold RS cell ? I would like to hear about your results.

All the best  Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: sutra on April 30, 2008, 11:22:36 PM
Hi guys...
just waiting for my bloody galena crystal.........is taking a LOOOOOOONG time to arrive...


Ciao
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Pirate88179 on May 01, 2008, 03:38:30 AM
@ sutra:

Tell them to get the lead out.  (sorry)

Bill
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on May 01, 2008, 04:33:52 AM
Dang!  Bill, you beat me to it  ;D
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: AbbaRue on May 08, 2008, 07:58:39 AM
@Koen1
Did you use silica gel in your cells?
If you did, what results did you get?
I bought some really cheap, used for cat litter box.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on May 08, 2008, 10:31:30 AM
@AbbaRue: Well, yes, I have tried silica gel but without much success...
I used those dessicant/dehumidifyer pellets that you often get in new
shoe boxes and other stuff, you know, the little paper sachets.
I tried melting them but that didn't work well, so I dumped a bunch
in a blender and ground them up into powder. What was finally left
was a cloud of silica gel dust and a little bit of powder for use,
and when I tried to make a cell with it the powder didn't bind properly
or something like that and the cell material never reached a
solid consistency that was to my liking...
But it might be that you can make a cell with it if you use higher temperatures
and/or a different procedure...
And of course your silica gel might just be slightly different as well, perhaps
it will react differently during the cellmaking process... (many different silica
gel factories in the world with different pollutants and additives)

@all: At present I have a "Hutchison-style" cell curing in my workshop,
will check it soon. It consists of Rochelle salt, about 1g of crushed
pyrite, about 1g of Germanium powder, about 1 to 2 g of Gallium.
Have 24V on it for polarisation, will post measurement results soon.
:)
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on May 09, 2008, 02:51:35 PM
Report on the Hutchison style crystal cell I made last week:

Used 3cm diameter, 6cm tall aluminium cylinder as container.
Ingredients:
- 1 to 1,5 tube full of dry Rochelle salt (it decreases in volume when it
melts as well as when water is added, hence more dry salt went in)
- approx 1 gram of crushed Iron Pyrite (was a nice heap on a teaspoon)
- approx 1 gram of pure Germanium powder
- approx 1 to 2 grams of pure Gallium (in liquid state its hard to get an exact
amount scooped up so it's between 1 and 2 grams, I'd guesstimate about 1,5g)

I put the Rochelle salt in the tube and heated it to a good 90 degrees.
As it did melt but only very slowly I added a tiny bit of water (about a teaspoon),
which made the dry salt dissolve a little bit and apparently helped it melt
quite quickly. Let it sit there at 90 degrees for a bit to allow some of the water
to evaporate. Then, when it was still slimey liquid but clearly already starting to
lose much of its water content, I added first the gallium, then the pyrite, and then
the germanium, stirring the mix well. Quite quickly it became a thicker liquid,
and when I removed it fro mthe heater and it began to cool the goo became
increasingly thick and putty-like.
I quickly rigged up the electrode, for which I  chose to use a copper rod, with a
cardboard spacer and wired it to a few batteries intended for the purpose of
polarising the cell. They were a couple of  9V block batteries wired together
to give 24V. Not anywhere near the high voltages John H claims to use,
but since my previous cells don't seem to show much lasting effect of
a higher voltage polarisation at all and the high voltage could lead
to unwanted effects, I decided to go for a low 24V polarisation in this experiment.
I stuck the copper rod into the by now thick paste-like material and
taped the other battery lead to the aluminium container.
The cell was left to cool and "cure" like that for 2 days and nights.

Now yesterday night when I tested the cell I found the central electrode
is a bit loose and I could actually pull it out of the solid material without
any effort, it just slid right out. I was afraid it wouldn't do anything,
and when I tested it it showed a sad 85millivolts at a few tiny microamps.

Disappointed at the apparent failure I shortcircuited the cell with a piece of wire
and left it on the garage workbench to give it one last test today before writing
it off as a failed build.

It just so happens that workbench is in the direct sunlight (when the curtain isn't
closed) and the fresh summery sun shone in the entire morning, warming the table up
quite a bit. Furthermore, there's an oven within a few feet and that was used this
morning, giving off a nice heat to combine with the suns rays already there...
I guess that heat must have melted the material again, or at least partially, because
when I picked up the cell a few hours ago the central electrode does not appear to
be loose anymore, I can no longer pull it out without applying force.
Also, the output has risen to a good 190 millivolts by now. So perhaps worth keeping
an eye on for a while still... ;)

I was planning to take it back to my "lab" and re-melt the thing, then repeat the
polarisation and solidification process... but if this works already I may wait a while
before doing so.

I've taken a pic for you guys. The top view pic does not appear to show the metallic
glitter inside the material very well. When you tap it it sounds and feels like a form
of light plastic or resin. Oh and yes, the electrode shifted off center...

Reactions are always welcome. :D

Kind regards,
Koen
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Feynman on May 09, 2008, 04:48:54 PM
That's pretty cool Koen... maybe it is better to let cells cure in the sunlight?

Also, what were the high voltages you were trying before?  What are the highest cells you guys have produced so far and what materials were they using?

Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: sutra on May 09, 2008, 09:58:13 PM
KOEN
nice result...
It may be that under the sun the gallium and pyrite had the chance of sinking at the bottom of the cell increasing their concentration down below...may be you should try in increasing the quantity of minerals in the mix...
with Rochelle salt water is a problem...it is VERY hydroscopic and it must be kept sealed and dry.

I wonder if using a longer elecrode would bring any change to the output....and I would also test the cell under the influence of the radio waves produced by a cellphone or something like it....
When my galena will arrive, that's also what I want to establish.

Ciao
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on May 10, 2008, 01:21:07 PM
G'Day all,

@Koen,  I'm very interested how your gallium germainium mix turns out over time.
What if you prepare the pyrites and gallium together (pre mix) as I did with the quartz sand and gallium. A ratio of 20 to 1 pyrites to gallium would be all you'd need. You would then have the makings of multiple junctions before combining with the rest of the ingredients. Just a thought  ;D


If you remember on 16 th April I ran a couple of tests using rochelle salt. One cell contained just  crushed pyrites , liquid RS and aluminium anode and cathode.  That cell has fully crystalized and has a voltage of 0.113V but as always, stuff all current (<10uA).

The other cell was made of a cigar tube, acid washed quartz sand and liquid RS. The copper electrode had to be suspended into the mix for a couple of days while the RS crystalized. As with the first cell , the mix has fully set and suprise suprise has a voltage of 0.352V with no load. However, the short circuit current was 331uA (0.33mA) and it maintained that current for over 5 minutes.
Thereafter the current decreased gradually, not to be unexpexted if there was even the smallest amount of water still in the cell.

As of now the cigar cell has been given a permanent short and has been packed in dessicant. I'll test it again next week.

Well thats the update.

Good luck all

Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on May 12, 2008, 02:26:09 PM
G'Day all,

@Koen,  I'm very interested how your gallium germainium mix turns out over time.
What if you prepare the pyrites and gallium together (pre mix) as I did with the quartz sand and gallium. A ratio of 20 to 1 pyrites to gallium would be all you'd need. You would then have the makings of multiple junctions before combining with the rest of the ingredients. Just a thought  ;D

You mean like the gallium coated sand you made some time ago? Yeah, that's an idea... I was actually considering to "cook up" my own
pyrite-galena compound: instead of buying mineral samples of pyrite and galena and crushing them into powder, I thought it shouldn't
be too difficult to produce some iron sulfate and lead sulfate and just mix them up... Synthetic pyrite/galena mix so to speak...
Also just a thought :)

So far it seems that the more silicates are in my cell material, the less efective bonding the gallium appears to perform.
In a few of my test tubes with only different silicates and zero rochelle salt, the gallium seems to "overpower" the silicate
in reacting/bonding with the aluminium of the cell wall, resulting in an inner cell wall covered in nice shiny gallium-aluminium
alloy and very bad bonding with the silicate. This leaves a cell where the cell material does not appear to want to stick to
the cell wall at any temperature above galliums melting point, with some really funky yellowish discolouration in those areas.
It seems the more rochelle salt is added, the less nasty effects of the gallium befome apparent and the better the material
hardens out. But it seems the voltage from rochelle salt is significantly lower than that of most of my silicate cells, and the
amperage so far is about equally low...

It also seems I was right to question the matter of water retention in rochelle salt: it looks like the rochelle salt is extremely
absorbant and retains crystalline water up to quite a high degree.
I also noticed that, when the rochelle salt is heated to about 120 degrees on a stainless steel plate, it "bakes" into a
reddish brown to dark brown substance which stinks quite a bit; it smells exactly like a new chemical "cement plasticiser"
lime replacement powder that I just happened to test some time ago, and that stuff is also reddish brown... Nothing spectacular,
but perhaps interestig to see how this "lime replacement" relates to rochelle salt exactly... (in the view of our ceramics interest,
of course ;))

Kind regards,
Koen
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on May 15, 2008, 08:24:02 PM
Ok, very brief update:

The "JH-style" cell (RS, Pyrite, Ge, Ga) appears to have "stabilised"
at a voltage of 0.4V and an amperage of around 5mA.
(That is without short and without resistor connected between the electrodes,
just plain zero-flow measurement.)
Which is actually not bad... I had expected it to stay quite a bit lower...
But may be wordt re-melting and polarising with higher voltage.

A new cell I made contains my "classic" silicate base material, with
added Gallium and Germanium.
The Gallium seems to have a funny tendency to "creep up" in the cell,
and in a couple of experiments the mixture "cooked over" the edge of
the cell and after cooling I found a shiny Gallium film on the outside
of the cells. All of the ones where that happened were aluminium cells,
by the way. Anyway, the Gallium seems to have quite a strong affinity
to the aluminium. Even while mixing and heating the stuff in a cell, you
can often see a piece of really shiny and clean cell wall where it is coated
with Ga, whereas generally the aluminium is easily coated with the other
materials, which tend to stick to it.
In any case, the successfull cell was just silicate base material in an
aluminium tube, with Ga and Ge added, heated, reacted, and a copper
electrode inserted. Cell dimensions same as previous: 3cm diameter and
6cm tall, amounts of Ge and Ga approximately 1 gram each.
Readings of solidified cell after a few days of settling: 1.192V at 5-8mA.
(again, no short, no resistor, just plain zero flow "probes on the poles")

Looks like the familiar voltages I got before with my silicate mixes,
but I need to check the actual current throughput.
I am hoping that with addition of a resistor, the final output current
will be a little higher than that of my older cells... :)
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on May 16, 2008, 01:06:50 AM
G'Day all,

@ Koen:  Good work mate. Interesting you mention the aluminium and gallium combo.
As you know I roll my cells from .25mm AL sheeting.  I decided to coat the inside of the sheet with gallium which was applied
in liquid form with a stiff paint brush. ( works well on AL piping). However after a while, the coated sheet became very brittle.
So brittle in fact the sheet fell apart under it's own weight.  After a quick trip around the metalurgy sites it appears that gallium's affinity with aluminium causes it to creep between the Aluminium crystal structure weakening the molecular bonds.

What I was left with was a Al Ga alloy which was brittle enough to be powdered, which of course I did.  ;)
Now all that remains is to figure out what to do with the stuff.

Koen, it is time to break out the data logger on your last cell.  ;D  Let us know how it goes.


Got back into cell making last night. Thought I'd try out a new secret ingedient.

The new really really secret ingredient is............Automatic front loader washing powder!
Waits for the groans and eye rolling to stop... ;D ;D
However, the cell managed to put out 1.5V @ 7mA, enough to light an LED until the Rochelle salt fully crystalized.
Now after 24hrs it is at 0.714V and it's short circuit current holds at around 0.2mA. The only water used in this latest mix came from the Rochelle salt crystals themselves.

If anyone is interested I'll post the formula.

The washing powder contains high levels of phosphorus which I wanted to investigate. Also JH did mention cleaning products in one of his earlier videos. The phosphorus may act as a go between between other ingredients in the mix. I'll make a few more and report back.

Good luck dudes.

Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: jeanna on May 16, 2008, 06:04:47 AM
Well well, Did Ian get taken to the cleaners?  ;D

Yes, I would like that formula, please.
What happens if you spray a little water onto the cell when the power drops? Does the voltage come back up?    [Natrium Magnesium Phosphorus, sounds pretty cheap. add some Si add some Al --- yes, please share the formula.]

---------

I was thinking about the properties of clay the other day. (again).

In last year's building workshop the instructor stopped us from "patting" the clay. He explained that clay has a magnetic polarity, which is what makes clay sticky. When you slap it to make it workable It loses that molecular magnetism.

So, I wonder if one could use this dirt cheap stuff for its magnetic properties.

Going backwards on the thinking a bit. The washing soda mixed with clay which I thought would make the geopolymer fibers made a very light powder instead. It is extremely weak and fluffy as a powder. I wonder if it could be treated with acid and re-magnetized and used in a cell?

jeanna
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on May 16, 2008, 11:53:39 AM
@Ian: Yeah, I'm still trying to get that old laptop to work again so I can have it
run my logger while I use this computer to work on... But there's something really
wrong with the old thing, am now testing major components with my multimeter to
see where exactly the problem lies.
On your washing powder idea: Good of you to try it. I have considered mixing some
into my cells a few times, but have decided to stick with the ingredients I had at the
time... I don't know what the exact composition of your washing powder is, but most
such powders contain zeolite powder and phosphates, which are potentially interesting.
Perhaps not so much in the RS mixes, but phosphorus compounds tend to mix
and if reacted also bond quite nicely with silicates and aluminosilicates, which zeolite
happens to be... so perhaps it is more usefull in silicate based cells...?

@Jeanna: that's something I have never heard before. Magnetic clay? Is that new? ;)
As far as I know clay sticks because its particles are tiny plates, which tend to stick
together. You could say it's the Casimir effect that pushes them together and that may
in fact be correct, but it is more easily explained by the familiar example of two sheets
of paper, plastic or foil that tend to cling together when you try to peel one off the other.
As far as I know, that's what happens in wet clay as well. And that's why all clays are
phyllosilicates, meaning plate or leaf silicates, and why other non-platelike
silicates do not stick together like clay does...
I have to this day never encountered a clay that was truly magnetic as in sensitive
to a permanent magnet in any way.
Perhaps it is a matter of misconception of that instructor? Perhaps the person who taught
him had compared the stickyness of clay particles to tiny magnets that also stick together,
and the instructor person misunderstood clay to actually be composed of tiny magnets?
It just so happens that the old-fashioned horseshoe magnets are and were most often
made of magnetised iron and should indeed not be hit, slapped, or struck to avoid demagnetisation.
Real permanent magnets are made of magnetic ferrite, which unlike magnetised iron is
truly intrinsically magnetic and does not demagnetise (as much) like iron does when it's hit.
That seems to indicate that this instructor person did not know much about magnets,
and merely misunderstood an analogy between the stickyness of clay particles and magnets
to be a fact of magnetic properties of clay... I think. ;)
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: jeanna on May 16, 2008, 07:37:11 PM
Koen1,

Your suggestion is quite possibly correct. I do remember his mention of the plates and the different polarity on the ends of them. His conclusions could have been his own too.

(I have been puzzling about how powdery the clay becomes with the addition of sodium carbonate and wondering if the stickiness could be restored.)

If he is right , however, it might be that clay (the sticky potter's clay) would make a good substrate for a diode or a crystal cell or whatever you call these interesting things you are making.

thank you,

jeanna

Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on May 26, 2008, 01:36:07 PM
G'day all,

I was going to post the results of two cells made on the 22nd but they went from bad to badder so I'll sweep them under the carpet
and forget about them . ;D

Anyway I had a better time on the 23rd.

I thought I go back to some of the original ingredients and bung in some rochelle salt.
Here is the list:

   0.8g   black tourmaline
   2.5g   clinker and pyrites   60/40  crushed
   1.3g   rochelle salt
   1.8g   sodium carbonate
   5.3g   quartz sand
   0.05g  graphite

All the ingredients were mixed together with a small amount of water to make a thick dark brown paste.
The whole thing cooked  until it became like tar.
Using the usual Al tube and heat treated copper electrode the mix sets very quickly. When hot the mix has a tendancy to
creep up the tube.

Once cooled the initial short circuit surge current was 64mA with a voltage of 0.341V.
Although very galvanic at the start the voltage rose to 1.62V and finally settled down to 0.8V after a night on the data logger.

For a short while the cell managed to light, all beit very dimly, an LED.
For the last 3 days the cell has worked well under load but unfortunately I was a bit heavy handed with it and broke the
central electrode.
This gave me the opportunity to dismantle it and check out the bonding.
Very good bonding with the copper but not so good with the Aluminium, which is usually the case.

I,m going to play with the ratios of this mix for it needs some extra strength.

So anyway comments and suggestions always welcome.

It's gone a bit quiet here guys, whats cooking.  ;D

catch you later.

Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on May 26, 2008, 02:43:47 PM
Yay Ian's got a creeping goo cell as well! :D

Great! Join the club! :)
As I told you already, my "creeping goo" was a mix of
rochelle salt based- and silicate based- material with stuff like
germanium and gallium in there.
It has now been 4 weeks since I made that one, and believe it or not,
the stuff still keeps crawling up the tube!
It's flippin weird stuff... Seems to solidify into a nearly solid putty that
looks and feels like dried silicon rubber, but then when I return to the
lab a day or two later most of the stuff has climbed out of its tube again.
It has not climbed into the jar of oxide powder that I placed next to it,
so either it is not alive or it doesn't like oxides. ;D
I'm off to my lab in a fw minutes, so I'll see if it has finally learnt to stay
put, but I'm afraid I'll find it at the edge of the table again.

Quick overview of a few days datalogging on the Hutchison style cell,
this time with a 1Kohm resistor attached: Zero dot zero volts.
Same test with Reid style cell, 1Kohm: approx 0,29Volts continuous,
did unfortunately not write down the amperage I got... Low, I can
tell you that. But hey, it IS a friggin 0,29V continuous DC from a darn
piece of ceramic... So that's cool. :)
Please note that this was the most recent Reid style cell with germanium
and gallium in the basic silicate mix, and in contrast to most of my cells
it has not been inside the dryer box for over a month or two, so it still
needs to dry some more and there may be a slight galvanic component in
the output at this time.
I will hook up the logger to a few older cells to get a proper baseline test.
May also hook up a normal AA alkaline battery to get a nice graph of
the discharge voltage over time, to compare it to the cell graphs.
Funny little factoid: I briefly attached two of my larger cells to the logger,
one large cell with very basic Reid material mix (with slight additions
to the mix based on personal views) and one large cell with an oxide mix,
predominantly cobalt-alumino-silicate compound. The R-style cell shows
static volts on a multimeter but zero volts over time on the logger, while
the oxide cell showed a 0,17-0,21 Volt output (again, all cells had 1Kohm resistors).

so much for the update. :)

As for things getting quiet here, yeah... it looks like it's just you and me and Jeanna again...
The rest of the gang seems to have moved their sights to the "single circuits generate nuclear reaction" thread...
Which in a way I can't blame them for, I was highly interested in that myself. But that thread seems to
be getting increasingly confusing while it was originally so clear. When things calm down there and it turns
out there is still OU measurements in the circuit, it may certainly be worth looking into it... after all, it
seemed to show a 300-500% output in some tests...
I think some of the guys that were here have discovered that mixing the ceramics, baking them, but especially
the materials part of what mixes with what and what does and does not crystallise and more importantly what
electrodynamic effects do the materials have after they have reacted chemically and bonded etcetera is a lot more
complicated than it sounds when you just read our lighthearted posts about it... I'm not certain but a few may even have
done a few simple experiments with Rochelle Salt and some other materials and discovered that it's 1000 times more
easy to get zilch out than it is to actually get any proper output.
And of course we are fussing over a few measly volts and amps, the latter of which we're not even getting out much at all,
while the "single citcuits" thread for example discussed a device that should be able to amplify input pulses of a few
hundred volts up to kilovolts, and get output in the several amps. Both projects still need quite some work. But an
oscillating or pulsing electrical circuit with a coil and pulsed discharges is a lot more tangiable to most people than
the complicated stuff of mixing the exact right atoms and molecules in the right amounts, mixed with some equally
complicated and vague theory on the materials internal matrix, and hoping it will work. :)
But those are just guesses, of course.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: sutra on May 26, 2008, 08:10:31 PM
Hi guys

I'm still very interested in your work and I'm frying 'cause I didn't received yet the galena I bought and eventually I cancelled the money order...now I'm trying to get it from ebay, some how....
Otherwise, I would just experiment the whole day.....eheheeh


Ciao Ciao,

keep up the good work.
 ;)
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on May 27, 2008, 02:18:36 PM
Update: Yesterday I spent the afternoon in my lab/workshop,
working on some plate based experiments.

The "goo" cell surprised me again. Once again I returned to my lab
table to find the "goo", in the mean time affectionately named "Quirk",
had crawled out of its tube again. It was again next to the tube on the
table. It clearly refuses to stay inside its aluminium tube.
By now, 4 weeks into this rebellious behaviour, the tube is showing
signs of corrosion and metal fatigue. The bottom of my 5mm thick aluminium
tube appears to have a crack running along its entire edge, the entire
outside of the tube is corroded ranging from slightly to very much locally,
and there are zones on the tube that look like the aluminium has been
fused/alloyed with the germanium a bit (going on colour).
It seems the gallium does indeed "squeeze" itself in between the aluminium atoms
in the aluminium crystal matrix and thus it disrupts the matrix coherence
which causes the aluminium to become brittle.

After 4 weeks of fruitless attempts to "train" the Quirk to stay in its tube,
I had now had enough. So I heated it up untill it was liquidy again and poured
most of the Quirk into a stainless steel box, had it settle for a minute, then
added a piece of copper foil on top. The Quirk seemed to like the steel a lot
better than the aluminium, it did not appear to climb/crawl out of the container,
and the copper plate sank into it about a millimeter or two deep so it is now
nicely covered in a thin layer of Quirk. Looked like it was solidifying very slowly.
I also took the copper rod I had been trying to use as central electrode, gave it
a good whirl along the tubes inner wall, and wrapped the by now fully Quirk-covered
copper rod in aluminium foil. Then as a last attempt to make something of the
thoroughly abused tube, I rolled a cylinder of copper foil and inserted it in the tube,
rolling the copper foil out as much as possible and pressing it against the inner wall
of the tube. Hopefully the remaining 1 to 2 mm thrick layer of Quirk on the tube wall
will solidify now. So there's 3 different attempts to make something usefull of the Quirk.
Let's hope one of them gives us some nice output. :)

Kind regards,
Koen
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Drannom on May 27, 2008, 02:46:12 PM
hello

Hutchinson had begun experiment after use a military diode !

if someone can find one of those diodes it may solve a part of the mystery

anyway, i think that crystal cell have been already give in the electrinium.pdf document

it explain how easy we can do it with steel (carbon-iron)

and more dificult with silver-iron compound,

a single molecule give 7 volts, so it do not need to be crystallize at all, imagine a plate
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on May 27, 2008, 02:58:56 PM
G'day all,

@Koen:  Nice attempt at a recovery with the quirk there dude. ;D  If the quirk moves that much, just put it in a hamster wheel
and generate volts that way .  ;D ;D ;D
Any chance of posting the formula for this stuff ? I haven't got any Germanium so I'll substitue it with pyrites.
Gallium to aluminium is like termites to wood. ;)

I mixed the contents of the cell I busted open yesterday with the gallium/aluminium powder I made a couple of weeks ago. I knew I'd find a use for it. Not wanting to be outdone in the naming stakes I'll call it Galluminium. ;D ;D
This new mix, which was a fine crumbly, damp tea leaf consistancy was rammed into a plastic tube with the original copper electrode down one side and a stainless steel strip down the other. The stainless becomes the -ve and copper +ve.
It is sitting  at 0.52V and has no trouble supplying 160uA.
I have this new compressed cell in series with the washing powder cell, total 1.213V and they are happily running a digital watch.
Still nothing to get excited about, but novalty value nonetheless.


Quirk to Enterprise, beam me up Scotty  ;D ;D

Ya gotta luv this

Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on May 27, 2008, 03:52:41 PM
Hi guys! :)

@Drannom: Well, the electrinium thing is not as easy and clear cut as it seems.
It sounds easy, but try to imagine how you are going to seal a compound of two metals
like gold and silver inside a third metal while keeping the dipolar orientation of all the
compound molecules exactly the same, and I think you'll find it's almost impossible
to do so. Or at least, that's the impression I get when I think about it.
If you have any idea how to do that in the home workshop, then I'd very much like
to hear your suggestions. :)
Besides that, the electrimium "patent" does not give very clear indications on what
materials can be used. A few are suggested, but it is very clearly stated that atoms
must be chosen with suitable frequencies and there is zero explanation on what
exactly the author meant by that. It would seem the author had some kind of idea
in mind that every atom has its own specific frequency, and somehow the interaction
of these frequencies would "pump" electrons through the material. But how exactly
is not explained at all, and what frequencies he is talking about is also not explained.
Is he talking about nuclear magnetic resonance frequencies? Or about electron orbit
and emission frequencies?
How does he want to keep a Au-Ag pair in its place and with the right atom on the
right side of this pair, and in alignment with all the surrounding pairs, and at the
same time pour molten iron over the lot to cast them in it? I think even if you managed
to put the atom pairs on a surface with all the Ag facing one way and all the Au the other,
as soon as you start pouring the molten iron the entire placement and orientation will be lost
and you'll end up with a pool of molten iron-gold-silver alloy with none of the Au-Ag pairs
as you intended them.
At least, that's what I think...

@Ian
@Koen:  Nice attempt at a recovery with the quirk there dude. ;D  If the quirk moves that much, just put it in a hamster wheel
and generate volts that way .  ;D ;D ;D
Mwahahaha :D yeah good idea ;D
Quote
Any chance of posting the formula for this stuff ? I haven't got any Germanium so I'll substitue it with pyrites.
Gallium to aluminium is like termites to wood. ;)
Yup, sure is.
Formula was roughly: 1/5th of a tubes volume of silicate mix, mostly (homemade) sodium silicate (nicely made this time,
nice and white powdery material) with about a teaspoon or two of silver sand, about an entire tubes volume of RS,
a teaspoon or two of water, two teaspoons of gallium, one and a half teaspoon of germanium powder, a pinch of
aluminium powder. Tube is approximately 13cm tall and 5cm in diameter, so volume is 1021,15 cm^3.
I added the extra silver sand for two reasons: additional pure quartz and to compensate for any possible superfluous
sodium hydroxide leftover in the homemade sodium silicate; for this last reason I also added the pinch of aluminium
powder (after all, if there was any leftover NaOH it should react with the Al and neutralise the mix).
Heated it for a few hours while stirring well. Heated it for a couple of hours a few days later again. And again after
it had crawled out the tube. And again after that. And again. And again for the last time yesterday.
Don't know if it will work without the germanium though, but it might. ;)

Quote
I mixed the contents of the cell I busted open yesterday with the gallium/aluminium powder I made a couple of weeks ago. I knew I'd find a use for it. Not wanting to be outdone in the naming stakes I'll call it Galluminium. ;D ;D
Galluminium it is, sir! So noted and recorded. ;D
Quote from: Wikipedia:Galluminium
Galluminium (G?ljəˈmɪniəm) is a silvery white and ductile member of the boron group of chemical element alloys. It has the symbol GaAl; its atomic number is 13/31. It is not soluble in water under normal circumstances. It does not occur naturally. This material was made famous by the genious alchemist Sir Ian Middleton of Australia, who first made the material in 2008 for use in the then radical and now common crystal energy cells that power everything.
It has been rumoured to be distantly related to the infamous Quirk material that caused the global blackout of 2012 and has been shrouded in mystery ever since.
:D ;D

Quote
This new mix, which was a fine crumbly, damp tea leaf consistancy was rammed into a plastic tube with the original copper electrode down one side and a stainless steel strip down the other. The stainless becomes the -ve and copper +ve.
I like your scientific terminology there. "was rammed into a tube". ;D
Quote
It is sitting  at 0.52V and has no trouble supplying 160uA.
I have this new compressed cell in series with the washing powder cell, total 1.213V and they are happily running a digital watch.
Still nothing to get excited about, but novalty value nonetheless.
Yes, if the output remains. I thought you said you're pretty sure the washing powder
cell is galvanic? But the Galluminium mix cell is interesting... certainly! :)


Quote
Quirk to Enterprise, beam me up Scotty  ;D ;D

Bwhahahahahaha lol rofl etc :D :D

Ya gotta luv this[/quote]

Luvin it I tell ya! ;D

Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on May 27, 2008, 04:30:59 PM
G'day all ( again)

@Koen:  Boy you're on form tonight  ;D I just let one of the guys here at work read your wikipedia quote, now he's gone of to google it! ;D ;D ;D. Brilliant!.
Thanks for the mix details, and I like the idea of the pinch of Al to neutralize any NaOH. :) I was going to ask you if you knew th pH
of the quirk but it looks like you had that covered. ;)

Ok back to work

Make it so number 1  ;D ;D

Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: jeanna on May 27, 2008, 08:10:51 PM
Some archeological notes from the kitchen of the Enterprise, probably dating to sometime in 2008:
-----------------

I made a mix hoping I could incorporate both Al and Mg in the crystal structure. Possibly as zeolite.


The mix:

1Tablespoon   dry clay
1 teaspoon     Epsom Salt (Mg sulphate)
1 teaspoon     Na Carbonate (washing soda)
1 Cup            dry portland cement - contains or is clinker
1 Cup            dry sand (this was used for Trawiger pyramid and contains some small amount of NaCl)
1 Cup            water

This mixed easily and it appeared that the clay dissolved first, then the sand dissolved. The whole thing became a very thick soup that had a gritty sound to it but was very homogeneous.

Since I wanted to use the Al and Mg of the metals to make an e-crystal, I wanted to keep to the Al for the container. This presents an interesting problem.

Melting container.

I am not sure adding Al powder would be enough? but it is a good idea. I don't know where to get Al powder yet.

After a day of taking readings I found this patent:

http://www.pat2pdf.org/pat2pdf/foo.pl?number=6042808

This patent is for a manufacturing process for making zeloite at normal temperatures and includes the Mg which is why I looked for it and it also includes Ga. It has pictures and some formulas. Have a look.

Back to my kitchen.

I have taken a pic of a few things. Hopefully I can get it into one post.

The bottom of the Al juice can is filled with this stuff then I cut the can some more and made the spiral electrode that is inside. It only took 30 minutes to be able to place this electrode into the soup and have it not rest on the bottom. It solidified a room temperature in 2 hours and this morning after 18-20 hours, it has become the white of dry cement.

If I touch one probe directly to the crystal and leave one on the electrode I read 1 volt and 124uA. But I think that is because the probe metal is nickel or zinc plate, so I don't count that.

The pic shows the leads on different Al probes. I stuck 2 Al wires into it as well as the can strip, but the terminals are all made of Al.

Later I lined a cheese tub with Al foil and filled it and added a foil electrode and an Al wire electrode.

See how the foil has torn from the crystal? It dissolved it and I assume made some H2 overnight. (too slow for a car  ;D )  So, I am wondering if I even have any real surface contact between the Al foil, wire, can and the crystal.

Outside the pic are 4 pancakes that have dissolved their Al foil plates - and their foil electrodes too.

Maybe when it is all dry, I will use some sodium silicate to "glue" the electrodes into their places. Perhaps this will give some avenue for the charge to travel.
-------------
here is the pic I hope.

jeanna

I forgot to add the can gets 0.119vdc and 2.9uA using both Al terminals as shown in the pic.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Drannom on May 27, 2008, 08:12:01 PM
Dear Koen1

i am not good in english, just read carefully the electrinium.pdf, it is not like you said

you'll find that document everywhere

there is no such gold in that !!!

you are talking not clearify at alll!!

there is only 12 chapitres

first recipe: take a bar of steel, make it hot hot red, and freeze it slowly while putting many volts on it

the second recipe may be adapt, but to create your silver compound and the iron compound you have to create a battery to oxydise both of them (i do not know how to say that, read read read)



Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Drannom on May 28, 2008, 10:37:00 AM
hello

i have red electrinium.pdf many months ago, i have to read that text again, in fact Koen1 may be right, i just realize that i have read too much rapidly the 3 last chapitres, and there is no oxydation of silver and iron, the solution to create compound is made of someting else,

and yes there is gold in the recipe

i just focus on the simple recipe with steel, cause here we want some result in a simple way

a suggest the simple recipe with a very short rod of steel with high voltage (many thousand) at low current

pardon me Koen1

Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on May 28, 2008, 12:49:32 PM
Hi all :)

Great, the thread is not dead after all ;)

@Jeanna:
Some archeological notes from the kitchen of the Enterprise, probably dating to sometime in 2008:
-----------------
lol "captains log, stardate 1234567.8" ;)

Quote
I made a mix hoping I could incorporate both Al and Mg in the crystal structure. Possibly as zeolite.


The mix:

1Tablespoon   dry clay
1 teaspoon     Epsom Salt (Mg sulphate)
1 teaspoon     Na Carbonate (washing soda)
1 Cup            dry portland cement - contains or is clinker
1 Cup            dry sand (this was used for Trawiger pyramid and contains some small amount of NaCl)
1 Cup            water

This mixed easily and it appeared that the clay dissolved first, then the sand dissolved. The whole thing became a very thick soup that had a gritty sound to it but was very homogeneous.

Since I wanted to use the Al and Mg of the metals to make an e-crystal, I wanted to keep to the Al for the container. This presents an interesting problem.

Melting container.
Hmmm... Oh, right, I almost forgot, you're a potter! So you're probably trying to bake the stuff at "normal" ceramics temperature?
And aluminium melts around 660 degrees celcius (1220 F if that's the system you use), while generally pottery is baked at temps
of at least 1000 degrees C... So if that's what you wanted to do, then yes indeed, the aluminium will melt.
It is one of the problems I ran into quite early on in my cell experiments. I'd love to 'paint' a plate of metal with several different metal oxides
and/or sulfides and bake them into a sort of 'laminate' of vitreous material, but of the more common and readily available metals only
iron or nickel with a melting point of around 1500 degrees would be able to stand the heat needed for glazing (between 1100 and 1400 degrees generally).
Ok, and perhaps copper up to 1000 degrees, but that's not hot enough.
So yeah, dilemma if you want to bake the stuff in a metal container...  :-\

Quote
I am not sure adding Al powder would be enough? but it is a good idea. I don't know where to get Al powder yet.
I'm not entirely sure what you mean, but if you mean you're not sure if the aluminium powder will bond with the other stuff, then
I think adding it to a mix with sodium and water in it should cause it to react and at least form alumina (Al-oxide) and probably with
some of the silicates as well. Like in the geopolymer material. Aluminium binds quite well with silicates in general, and it tends
to react chemically with sodium in solution, so it should blend quite alright.
As for where to get it, over here small jars of aluminium powder are sold in art supply shops and hobby&crafts shops as
"silver powder" for use in homemade paints, glazes, ets. I have a jar labeled "New Silver Powder" but on the back it very
clearly reads "pure fine aluminium powder, does not contain silver." And when you open it up you immediately smell the
distinct (and quite nasty if I may say so) smell of aluminium.
I would advise to watch out a little when using Al powder in mixes. It is very reactive with quite a number of compounds,
and one easily adds a little too much of the stuff. Just a pinch is often enough to make an acidic solution bubble and fizz
like crazy, and often this will be accompanied with release of quite a bit of hydrogen gas. So do it in a room with good
ventialtion and add only small amounts at a time. And of course don't smoke while you're at it but I don't think any of us
is stupid enough to do that in a room filled with nasty powder traces and funky chemicals ;)

Quote
After a day of taking readings I found this patent:

http://www.pat2pdf.org/pat2pdf/foo.pl?number=6042808

This patent is for a manufacturing process for making zeloite at normal temperatures and includes the Mg which is why I looked for it and it also includes Ga. It has pictures and some formulas. Have a look.
Thanks for that link. Yes, reads quite straighforward. Good idea, really, to use Ga instead of Al to make lower temperature zeolites...

Quote
Back to my kitchen.

I have taken a pic of a few things. Hopefully I can get it into one post.

The bottom of the Al juice can is filled with this stuff then I cut the can some more and made the spiral electrode that is inside. It only took 30 minutes to be able to place this electrode into the soup and have it not rest on the bottom. It solidified a room temperature in 2 hours and this morning after 18-20 hours, it has become the white of dry cement.
(and of zeolite ;))

Quote
If I touch one probe directly to the crystal and leave one on the electrode I read 1 volt and 124uA. But I think that is because the probe metal is nickel or zinc plate, so I don't count that.

The pic shows the leads on different Al probes. I stuck 2 Al wires into it as well as the can strip, but the terminals are all made of Al.

Later I lined a cheese tub with Al foil and filled it and added a foil electrode and an Al wire electrode.

See how the foil has torn from the crystal? It dissolved it and I assume made some H2 overnight. (too slow for a car  ;D )  So, I am wondering if I even have any real surface contact between the Al foil, wire, can and the crystal.

Outside the pic are 4 pancakes that have dissolved their Al foil plates - and their foil electrodes too.

Maybe when it is all dry, I will use some sodium silicate to "glue" the electrodes into their places. Perhaps this will give some avenue for the charge to travel.
-------------
here is the pic I hope.

jeanna

I forgot to add the can gets 0.119vdc and 2.9uA using both Al terminals as shown in the pic.
Well one thing is clear: when you get and add aluminium powder to that mix it will definately react and fizz.
I would like to suggest several things: 1) stick an iron/steel nail and a piece of copper wire into the mix while it hardens,
see what output those give in respect to eachother as well as the aluminium electrodes
2) add aluminium powder (or even fine scraps of aliminium foil should work), so it can react with the acidic components
and chemically neutralise the material a bit, so the aluminium electrodes at least bond nicely to the material
and don't dissolve (too much). You can add other stuff too, as long as the ph becomes more neutral.
But nice going Jeanna! :D Thanks for the update and the pics.

@Drannom: No problem buddy. Your remarks about the part of the electrinium pdf where
molten iron fed high voltage is mentioned, as well as certain other parts of the story involving
the polarisation and orientation of dielectric compounds, were quite right, and those parts of
the pdf are very interesting and certainly to be taken into account. So no excuses needed,
as far as I'm concerned. :)
I just think the pdf makes it sound a lot easier than it really is.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on May 28, 2008, 01:49:51 PM
G'day all,

@Koen

Quote
And of course don't smoke while you're at it but I don't think any of us
is stupid enough to do that in a room filled with nasty powder traces and funky chemicals

Aren't you forgetting someone? You know ol "hell boy " here will do anything to collect  the insurance
money. ;D ;D ;D

Canberra Times  15th May 2009.  "Man tazers dog with piece of homemade rock"
 ;D

Must sleep............
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: jeanna on May 28, 2008, 05:18:09 PM
Hi rockers  ;) ,

Today my juice can gives a voltage reading of 0.188vdc and 3.6uA up from even last night.

Now, I must have made some things unclear so I want to fix that.

First, the temperature was all at room temperature. 62 deg F (Is that around 20C ?)

I neglected to mention the very interresting part about the pH.
A few minutes after I added the water and I thought it was increasing in wetness, I checked the pH.  it was between 10 and 11 .

I thought to check it again last night. This is on the remaining unused glop of stuff ( before I added 2 copper electrodes.) It had started to solidify and I added water. IN SPITE OF THAT the pH was around 13 - 14.

My conclusion is that the chemical reaction that Davidovits describes that creates NaOH after some time had occurred. This would explain the bubbling of the reaction. NaOH plus Al creates H2 as gas plus AlOH remaining in the mixture.

I should have explained my reason to use similar electrodes. I don't have any other way to rule out a galvanic reaction happening between the electrodes. This way any voltage I see should be happening in the mix; and, hopefully within its crystalline structure.

So, room temperature
similar electrodes
powerfully alkaline
growing in m-voltage and u-amperage as it continues to dry.

Koen,
Does a zeolite really look like dry cement?

If so, maybe I was more successful than I realized.

thank you,

jeanna
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: jeanna on May 28, 2008, 08:17:36 PM
Here is a pic of the cheese tub with the same crystal as the other. This is the one with some of the Al foil dissolved. I put the + probe at 12 oclock. The - probe is on that spiral wire. Both are Al.

Yesterday there was no difference between this tub and the juice can. both around 0.120vdc in the AM and 0.150vdc in the PM .

 Today. after the last post I decided to check the tub. 0.405vdc and 24uA. Big improvement eh?
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Drannom on May 29, 2008, 01:02:45 PM


here the 2 sentences  from chapitre 9 of electrinium.pdf

...

The body of the Unit could be made from a number of materials such as steel. Silicon, Germanium, Carbon and others. Each of these materials would be suitable for an Electrinium Unit designed for a particular purpose. Units made with steel bodies would be of an extreme voltage, so high that they could not be cut and assembled into batteries, but they would be very easy to make.

...

so why not try the easy way first !?  :D
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on May 29, 2008, 01:05:08 PM
Hi rockers  ;)
:D

Ah, yes, to eliminate galvanic effects on the output using two identical electrodes
should work... And trying to get the ph neutral should work also.

Quote
Koen,
Does a zeolite really look like dry cement?
Well of course not all cements look the same, but as long as you're talking
about rocks that are white-ish and have a hard and dry consistency like cement,
I think zeolite comes quite close...
I'll attack a pic of zeolite that looks exactly like the zeolite I have back home,
and you'll see what I mean. although perhaps I should note that as soon as
water is added the zeolite I have tends to colour slightly blueish grey instead
of white, and it turns whiter the more it dries out.

It is quite plausible you have already made a zeolite. I have made a few ceramics
that looked and behaved darn similar to the zeolite mineral I bought.
Typical test to see if you have true zeolite or "just" something very close to it
in the aluminosilicate family is this:
Put some of the rock in a small pan, preferably in the form of gravel. Add some water,
so the rocks are wet and in a tiny pool of it. Heat it on a stove.
Zeolite will now start "dancing" and "jumping" in the pan as the water it contains
evaporates through the pores of the material, and this will generally make a hissing
sound and the rocks will at least shake and quiver if not actually jump up a bit.
Other aluminosilicates generally do not do this.

Quote
If so, maybe I was more successful than I realized.
Yep, you may very well be :)
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on May 29, 2008, 01:40:04 PM

here the 2 sentences  from chapitre 9 of electrinium.pdf

...

The body of the Unit could be made from a number of materials such as steel. Silicon, Germanium, Carbon and others. Each of these materials would be suitable for an Electrinium Unit designed for a particular purpose. Units made with steel bodies would be of an extreme voltage, so high that they could not be cut and assembled into batteries, but they would be very easy to make.

...

so why not try the easy way first !?  :D

:) I read the pdf again last night because you brought it up again.
I also dug up the notes I made about it in the past.
Here's what I found then, and I still agree with that:
- the author first starts talking about a unit made of Iron-gold "electrinium compound",
encased in iron. So basically just gold atoms inside of a block of iron.
He does not continue that line of reasoning, just breaks it off, and then
he starts over again with a description of a prototype unit, which all of a sudden
is a lot more complicated than simply adding some gold to some molten iron.
This suggests the author had not actually thought the entire thing through
in detail yet, before he started the chapter on the prototype; after all, why not
describe the simplest version to make and then describe how to make it
as a prototype? Why instead talk about a version that sounds like it is easier to
make but then choose a more difficult one as prototype? It can only be
because while thinking about the apparently simpler version the author
realised he had not taken everything into account properly and has realised
that even making a simple prototype is much more difficult than he had originally
thought. To not lose face he does not point this out.
- the final prototype procedure he describes is far from simple and even has
a few great big question marks attached to it.
Melting pure silicium takes at least 1420 degrees C, melting iron takes 1538C,
and melting silver takes 962C. The author assumes we can make Iron-silver
molecules, which I guess is possible by chemical reaction of elements in
solution, but he seems to assume that these molecules will remain seperate
molecules even when we mix them with the molten silicium at 1420C.
Since that is almost double the melting temperature of silver, and since
I do not know of any silver-iron alloys such as suggested by the author,
it seems to me that that is a bit optimistic to say the least. ;)
But even if we assume that we can have Ag-Fe molecules at that high
temperature, as the author suggests, then it is still almost undoable
to first melt all of the ingredients again, then mix them up at those
high temperatures, and them pour them into another crucible.
If you have specialised equipment so you can actually perform those
acts inside a blazing hot oven/kiln of 1500 degrees then it is possible.
But who has that kind of equipment?
And then we need to have the molten silicium crystallise and cool down.
Which should indeed work the way he describes. But that is again not
easy and needs special alteration of the oven/kiln.
And it assumes that silicium with a high level of silver and iron pollution
in it does not experience any interference from those elements during
crystallisation. Now I know that very low percentages of pollutions, like
1% or 2%, are/were used in semiconductor technology and were/are
made in a way similar to what the author describes.
But I also know that anything higher than 5% or so messes up the neat
crystallisation process, and that it depends on how well the pollution atoms
integrate into the crystalline structure. Silver and iron are not really elements
known for their great integration into pure silicium crystals.
And so I have quite a number of doubts about the prototype and especially
its production process.

On top of that I just don't have the facilities to mix molten materials at 1500C,
nor to add any seed crystals at such temperatures.
I do have access to a potters oven/kiln, and it can go up to 1500C, but
I am not insane enough to open the door when it's that hot. ;)

And so I'm sticking to lower temperature materials that I can work with
without turning my workshop into a little piece of inferno. ;D
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Drannom on May 29, 2008, 08:28:54 PM
@Koen1


so why not try the easy way first !?

use direct carbon-iron polarisation by auto crystallizing a simple rod of steel (4mm), with no others complicated thing, i would like to have your analysis on that too ! if the iron-carbon direct association give an electrinium producing too lot of volts, i do not see any problem with that....

if it is easy it must be easy, the author his a real master, i can sense it in his expression of his understanding

and we can find an another way to do with silver-iron ?? well may be yes may be not but do not take the peanut, try easy first !!? = iron-carbon


Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on May 30, 2008, 12:37:13 PM
so why not try the easy way first !?
Because there is no easy way... The author, in my opinion, shows that he has not really thought this thing
through deeply enough... Or at least, that is the impression I get...

Quote
use direct carbon-iron polarisation by auto crystallizing a simple rod of steel (4mm),
Excuse me? What do you mean "auto-crystallising"? Are you suggsting I heat a steel rod to its melting point,
then have it crystallise? What good would that do?
Quote
with no others complicated thing, i would like to have your analysis on that too ! if the iron-carbon direct association give an electrinium producing too lot of volts, i do not see any problem with that....

Well the problem I have with the simple electrinium unit described in his chapter 9 is as follows:
He says we should use for example steel as the negative and gold or platinum as the positive, and then
to use steel as the encasing body. He also says we can use steel, Si, Ge, C, and other materials as casing.
In the chapter 10 description of the prototype he then opts for Si casing with Fe and Ag as negative resp. positive
elements.
So according to him, Fe is more negative than Ag, and steel (Fe + 0-2% C) is more negative than Au and Pt.
First of all he is being very unclear as to what exactly he means with this "positive"/"negative" terminology.
There are very clear terms for such things, but he does not use them.
Let us assume for a minute that he means the electronegativity per element. That would give
iron a 1.83, silver a 1.93, platinum a 2.28 and gold a 2.54, while silicium has 1.9.
So that would make Fe the least electronegative and relatively electropositive...
Now definition of electronegativity is "the ability of an atom to attract electrons for covalent bonding",
so this basically says that if these materials are put together, gold will "pull in" electrons from
the other materials the strongest, then platiunum, then silver, then silicium, then iron.
Other way around, the materials that will most easily give away an electron are the same
series in reverse.
That seems to imply that the materials are in fact oppositely charged compared to the discription
given by the author: Fe is in fact more positive than Ag, but tha author claims it is the other way around.
This makes me question how correct he is in his reasoning.

Secondly, just think about the unit suggested in chapter 9:
so we have steel and gold as compound elements, which is basically Fe-Au (let's just forget for a second
that steel is Fe + 0-2% C). Then we cast this in an encasing of steel.
What we end up with is obviously a block of steel with a certain amount of gold particles in it.
So what he claims is apparently that, if we make a block of steel with some gold particles
in it, which would in normal terminology be called a block of Steel-Gold alloy,
that this block now produces lots of electricity?
Highly unlikely, in my opinion. Even if there were any electricity produced by the "electrinium compound",
the steel casing would allow the electrons to flow back in so-called Eddies and localised currents,
and the entire thing should basically "short-circuit" itself and at best become hot.

Third, as far as I know the mixing of two metals, especially if one or both are liquid, is called
alloying. Also, the mixing of metals is not the same as water-based chemistry.
The author seems to think that we can simply take a bunch of loose atoms of Iron and
a bunch of loose atoms of Silver and have them react into Silver-Iron. It is not that simple.
Iron and Silver are both metals, and in solution they will tend to react with other elements
and not so easily with eachother. If they do react in a solution it is quite likely there will be
hydrides or hydroxides formed, and not pure Fe-Ag molecules.
And then, even if you do have molecules of the compound, for example the Fe-Au molecules
for use in the steel casing, then just imagine what happens when you pour molten steel over them?
Bye bye seperate molecules, hello big blob of liquid alloy! No molecules left to polarise,
it is now a molten metal that will form one big crystal with some gold atoms spread
out through the metal.

Fourth, let's assume he does have a point and when two dissimilar atoms are combined they
can form a pair of which one acts as the positive and the other as the negative "pole".
Obviously we are then talking about the relatively positive atom that binds with the relatively
negative atom to form a neutral compound. So, in this bond, does the positive atom
receive an electron from the negative atom? That would seem to imply the e-field runs
from the negative to the positive atom... Why would this now neutral compound still want
to attract electrons on either side? Why would there be an external e-field to the molecule?
After all, we must have an external e-field for any effects to be observable at all...

Or does the author perhaps intend to say that the "positive" atom must more easily give its
electron to the "negative" atom, and that this "negative" atom then transfers this to the casing
more easily than giving it back to the "positive" atom, while the "positive" atom absorbs one electron
from the casing more easily than that it takes one from the "negative" atom?
That seems quite contradictory: after all, it would mean that the "positive" atom must be more
positive than the casing in order to absorb the electron from it, but at the same time the "negative"
atom must be more negative than the casing in order to donate an electron to it, and meanwhile
the "negative" atom must be more positive than the "positive" atom in order to absorb an electron
from it. That does not work. Casing=>atomA=>atomB=>Casing cannot be nn=>n=>p=>pp because
nn cannot be pp at the same time.

So you see, I get the impression that the author did not really think it though very well after all.
It seems to me that he has looked at it from one angle while forgetting to take into account
how it looks from the other angle. From the angle of pure electrovalent bonding it seems to
make sense, but from the angle of n-p bias conduction it does not seem to make sense.

It comes down to something very close to the opposite polarity issue Ian and I have been
considering for a while. The polarisation of the dielectric particles that make the e-field
in an electret must be opposed to the n-p bias of the entire material block (the casing)
for such a type of "battery" to work. And that is a problem in constructing them, because
whenever you apply electric fields to polarise the material it doesn't just polarise the
dielectric molecules, but it also changes the division of p- and n- pollution in the semi-
conductor material which kills the intended effect.

That's my view. At the moment. ;)

Quote
if it is easy it must be easy, the author his a real master, i can sense it in his expression of his understanding
I do not agree. I agree that the author is convinced this will work. But I have serious doubts about the depth of his insight.
But I tried to explain this above. :)

Quote
and we can find an another way to do with silver-iron ?? well may be yes may be not but do not take the peanut, try easy first !!? = iron-carbon
I strongly feel that the experiments I have been doing are very, very closely related to the ideas of the author of Electrinium,
and that I have already found his simplistic view to be too simple. In my experience, this is not how compounds behave. Simply putting
electret-like dielectric compounds inside a (semi)conductive coating does not produce electricity. Yes, it produces electrical charge,
just like an electret, but that is not current.
That's exactly where we are now: we can make electret-like cells that give a nice voltage, but it's the amperage that we're trying to boost now.
The charge is there, the current is just lacking.
Experiments have shown that using too conductive materials seems to kill the output entirely, probably shorts the cell by internal Eddies.
Besides, if it would work as simply as stated in the pdf, do you not think we had heard something about the first successful electrinium battery by now?
It's been almost 30 years since the author wrote it, he must have tried to make one by now. I think he tried and failed and gave up...

regards,
Koen
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on May 30, 2008, 02:03:06 PM
Quote from: Drannom wrote in PM to Koen1
yes i beleive that only one short hot hot red rod of steel will crystallize while putting a lot of volts at low current

so it may possible that no one have tried this, but in this forum i have seen a topic showing steel rod producing overunity!!

Are you sure you're not talking about the carbon rod that seems to show OU? That one's different, it just works in a B field and
when pulsed with hV, and even then only 2 people claim to have seen the OU effect...

I have not seen a steel rod produce OU on the forum... can you please give that link or the title of that thread?

And I think just applying a hV low amp current to a red hot steel rod has been done before because it is relatively simple.
But you can try it if you like.
I suspect it may be possible to achieve a circular magnetisation in the rod that way, but I doubt it will produce actual current.

Quote
i do not want to argue more in the forum, cause i will put all the extrac from electrinium to make you understand the dark side of your understanding
If you would explain to me what you mean with "the dark side of my understanding" I might understand what you mean.
Besides that, I was not agruing at all.
I was just explaining to you how I see the electrinium theory. I see it as partially very interesting reasoning, and partially
too simplistic and based on a lack of actual hands-on experimenting.
you asked me to explain my view, and I did.
There was no arguing going on. We were not in a verbal fight.
Or at least, not as far as I noticed... :)

Quote
when i ask you to talk about CARBON-IRON do not talk about nothing else, no gold no platinium etc etc easy it's easy, so i could not trust you anymore due to your non hability to respond sincerely to my posts
That, and pardon my French, is bullshit Drannom.
You asked me to explain to you what my view is on the authors theory and on the suggested electrinium units.
I explain to you why I sincerely doubt the realism of the authors claims, I explain to you why in detail using and
referring to the authors own examples, I explain where I see problems in that reasoning that the author himself
did not address and perhaps not realise when he wrote the text, I explain what I think he omitted and why I think
if will not work if you do incorporate those pieces of information into the theory, and I feel that is an extremely
complete analysis of why such a unit will not work. 
It does not matter if the materials are Iron and Gold, Iron and Silver or Iron and Carbon, because that does not
change a single thing in my analysis of the authors reasoning.

Your conclusion that you cannot "trust" me because I do not reply sincerely to your posts is complete nonsense.
If you cannot follow or understand my analysis then that is a problem due to your own limitations, and not due to
any lack of sincerety nor to a lack of willingness to explain from me.
If you don't like what I say then that's ok, but do not try to spin it and turn it into a matter of me not being sincere,
because that is simply not true and I do in fact resent any such allegation.


Quote
why not look to my reptilians topic, it seems that this forum is full of non sincere members
One more remark like that and you can choke on your croissant for all I care.
I'm giving you an honest and quite extensive answer, and you reward me by insulting me?
Asshole.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on May 30, 2008, 03:14:35 PM
@Ian & all:
Brief update on the Quirk: it is still not solid.
The stainless steel box with Quirk in it is still the same,
although a little bit has dripped over the sides, but at least the
stuff hasn't actually "climbed out" of the container. It is still
vry gooey and liquid/slimey stuff, has not hardened yet.
The Quirk around the copper rod wrapped in alu foil did not
stay in place, it has crawled out of the foil on both the top
and bottom end. Instead of squeezing it back in I decided to leave it.
The Quirk in the aluminium cylinder that I used to cook it up in,
the thin lining of quirk between that alu cylinder wall and the cylinder
of copper foil has not come out. Some of it has, but that's only
a little bit at the top. Most of the stuff seems to still be between the
alu and the copper. What is interesting is that the aluminium tube now
appears to be "sweating" some substance... In certain regions one
can clearly see how droplets have formed on the outside cylinder
wall while there is absolutely no trace of them dripping down from the
top of the cylinder. The "sweat" droplets also seem slightly gooey
and bubbly, which suggests the stuff reacted with something.
I will take a picture of it if I get a chance, so you guys can see what
the cylinder looks like now. It is clearly no longer a neat pure aluminium tube,
that's for sure.
Lol could we call it "Germalluminium"? ;) ;D

Also, with the recent revisit of the electrinium theory, I have come to
ponder the n-p polarisation problem again.
The problem remains: we can make electret-like dielectrically
polarised material that produces a nice and fairly constant voltage,
but it has (near) zero current = amperage. We can make a diode-like
material that does have a n-p bias thus allows only one direction of
current, but it does not have an internal dielectric field that produces
actual potential difference, so it needs an external potential difference
to work. The polarisation directions of these are opposed to eachother,
so attempts to combine the two will result in a material where the
n-p bias to current is opposed to the dielectric potential difference,
and thus still zero current will flow.
What we need is a method to polarise these two "elements" oppositely
in the same block of material, at the same time.
Obviously it is impossible to apply two opposite elecrical fields simultaneously.
(ok, not impossible, but the net field will be zero)
So I have been thinking of using an electrical field to polarise one,
while using a magnetic field to polarise the other...
I do not know if that will work, to be honest. It seems that, if we were to
wind a coil around the material as to get a "coiled coil", this should
induce another linear A-field along this "coiled coil"'s axis. Although
it is an A-field, there is no actual current supplied in that direction
through a closed circuit... Would this result in electro"static" polarisation
of the material in between?
Hmmm... well, even if it would, any applied direct electric field would most
likely still pull the positive particles to the negative electrode and vice versa,
so even then it seems it is improbable such a simultaneous opposite polarisation
can be achieved in one block of material in this manner. :(

Suggestions? :)
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: jeanna on May 30, 2008, 06:43:29 PM
Go for it Koen,

I have been wondering for a while now if wrapping a chunk of crystal in a wire,then pulsing the wire would orient the polarities within the crystal into a way that would allow us to use / extract the electricity that is within the crystal.

----------

Along what seems to me to be similar lines, I have found that while using similar metals for electrodes (in this case Al) The one on the outer edge seems to always be the + and the one in the center the -.

By that I mean If I connect the red lead to the outside the meter will show a positive voltage.

I could speculate on its meaning, but I won't.

However, it may be a place to begin experimenting.

The voltages and amps on my crystal are still rising, but perhaps stabilizing as the crystal becomes dry. 0.537vdc  15uA on the cheese pot. I moved the probe to a piece of foil a bit  away from the pot where no crystal could have migrated. (no Ga   ;) )

jeanna
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Drannom on June 02, 2008, 04:19:17 AM
It's not fair to use the MP i have sent to you, it was to not butter you anymore here, there is another MP that you have not use yet !

Don't ask why i don't trust you ! you have just use my PM against me !

i am not an ass hole, and you can not handle a private MP converstion

and what about military diodes ??

and who are you to destroy the electrinium.pdf ?

there is a schist, start a topic on the electrinium ? not me, i have seen enough of you

i will always remember to never write a PM again to try to solve a problem with a member

not fair not fair really not fair
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on June 02, 2008, 12:15:04 PM
It's not fair to use the MP i have sent to you, it was to not butter you anymore here, there is another MP that you have not use yet !
It was not fair of you to accuse me of being dishonest and unsincere either. Yet you did it.
And you did it in PM so nobody else could see your completely unfounded accusations.
I do not like to be called a liar and dishonest, and especially not when the entire stroy on the basis of which you accuse me
has transpired in the public forum. I thought at least we could let the others see how you accuse me of dishonesty,
while for some reason you do not want others to know about your accusations... Who's being dishonest now?
Seems to me the guy who first asks for my view in public and then chooses to call me a liar in private is the one
trying to keep things secret... Funny notion of sincerety and honesty you have there... Must be French...




Quote
Don't ask why i don't trust you ! you have just use my PM against me !
Yes, I have made public the accusation you made of me being dishonest in my answer to you.
Because for some strange reason you seemed to think being very secretive about it
would give you the moral high ground or something? But unfortunately that doesn't work.
You can't accuse people of dishonesty while you are yourself being very sneaky about it.
Well, you can, but you'll lose credibility of course. ;)
First of all I did not use you PM against you, I simply repled in public to an accusation
you made in private which I resent and deny and which was based on test I posted in
full public view so I see no reason to suddenly keep your reply to that secret. plus I don't
see why I should have to keep your false accusation secret either.
You should have thought about this before falsely accusing me of dishonest answers to
your questions.
You may disagree with me and I am fully willing to discuss that, but do not accuse me
of such things as being insincere in my answers to you. I may see things differently and
answer your questions in a way that you are not used to, but that does not make my
reply insincere nor dishonest.
While your reaction was anything but civil.

Quote
i am not an ass hole, and you can not handle a private MP converstion
In the situation where you secretly try to accuse me unjustly while the entire argumentation
of which you accuse me to be dishonest has been held in public forum, I chose
not to comply with your dubious secrecy and show your injust accusation in reply to
my argumentation to the rest of the forum members as well. And I did so because I find
such an action to be that of an asshole. So in that situation and according to my personal
view after just having been insulted by you, you were indeed an asshole.

Quote
and what about military diodes ??
What about them?
I know quite a lot about diodes, but your question is too vague.
What sort of military diodes are you talking about?
It is known that, especially older types of, germanium based diodes often
showed anomalies when they came of the production line, and most of all
when they were only just taken into production. They used to test them all
and only those that tested ok were shipped out. It happened quite regularly,
or so it is said, that during testing a diode would be found that didn't just
work as a diode but actually produced output all the time.
But that was not what they were testing for, and most were destroyed.
There are also accounts of electrical repair men from around the 50s/60s
that describe how such diodes could sometimes apparently become slightly
changed over the years of use, and some of these used diodes would
also produce output without actual input...

Then of course all diodes were originally military devices anyway, or at least all
crystal diodes. The German army developed the first germanium semiconductor
crystal diodes for use in U-boot radio/radar detectors, and the US army used
semiconductive compounds during the war and intrinsic semiconductor crystal
diodes of various types after the war. Part of the tech was stolen from the Germans
of course.

So what exactly do you mean when you say "military diodes"?

And why do you feel they are related to electrinium in any way?

Crystal diodes are well known p-n semiconductor technology.
Electrinium is not, nor clearly comparable at all.


Quote
and who are you to destroy the electrinium.pdf ?
I have not "destroyed" the pdf. It is still there. I would never "destroy" it. What nonsense.
If you mean to say who am I to think I understand better what the author of that pdf thinks
he is talking about?
Well, a person with a brain, who believes proper understanding is better than worshipping
the text some person wrote.
Rational understanding is better than belief. You can choose to believe whatever people write,
or you can understand, think about it, and see the light of reason.
Wasn't Descartes a Frenchman? I would have expected you to understand. ;)
But really, instead of blindly assuming what the guy wrote because it sounds quite nice
and has a bit of a mystical ring to it, plus it plugs into the quasi-mystical Tesla mythology,
I compare it to the many model variations of which I know they can be very usefully applied
to work out systems of polarised material matrices with diode and-/or electret-like qualities,
and I cannot help but notice a number of inconsistencies between the two. I also know that
a lot of research has been done and knowledge has been gathered with respect to crystal
diodes, and very little to none of that supports the view as described by the author.
Anyway, your question seems to come down to "who are you to dare and give your own view
and opinion on the electrinium pdf" and that is just nonsense. who am I?
A human being, sir, with a mind and an opinion.
Is that no longer allowed in your "libert?, egalit?, fraternit?" world view?"
Must we bow down to the holy scriptures as written by peope in the past,
or may we indeed still form opinions and talk about them?
I find your standpoind a bit strange.

Quote
there is a schist, start a topic on the electrinium ? not me, i have seen enough of you
Great, so have I of you sir.
Perhaps you can get your whining butt out of my crystal cell thread then!

Quote
i will always remember to never write a PM again to try to solve a problem with a member
Then please beware not to confuse a proper discussion of a topic with a "problem" again either.
You have been causing this "problem" by accusing me and doing so in a secretive manner.
You can try to blame the wind for the fire, but it was really your spark that caused it. ;)

Quote
not fair not fair really not fair
says the guy who unjustly accused another of dishonesty in a non-public message.
Pot calling kettle black sort of idea maybe eh?
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Drannom on June 02, 2008, 09:50:13 PM
The Permanent Electrinium Battery
http://youtube.com/watch?v=sNZNoNPI3hc&feature=related
http://www.nuenergy.org/pdf/electrinium.pdf

it was in page 4, i follow this topic from the beginning and the carbon fusion closely

thank you dcarlson, it is by you that i have discover the electrinium.pdf, great reading for me

in my first message up here i was talking that hutchison found a military diode acting like an electrinium a little bit, i repeat to wonder to find such a kind of diode , it was the beginning of Hutchison, why i have to repeat what is up this page

Koen1 you have act like a baby instead of talking with me in PM, i beleive every readers of this topic can make is own though, for me it was useless from you and a very lost of our precious time

Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 03, 2008, 04:28:38 AM
@ Koen1:

Just keep on doing what you are doing and ignore any "complaints" from the peanut gallery.  I have always
found you to be an honorable person on any topic here and have seen you go out of your way to explain things to those that might not understand. (Myself included)  You, unlike many on here, no name mentioned to protect the guilty, are an experimenter and put your tests where your mouth is.  We need more folks on here like you that actually do, and not just talk. (or type)  My 2.5 cents. ( Due to inflation)


Bill
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: clearchrome on June 03, 2008, 05:27:05 AM
Something that might be of interest to testing the Xtal battery.

http://www.rexresearch.com/reid/reid.htm
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on June 03, 2008, 12:02:53 PM
Thanks Bill :)

That reminds me, I have better things to do than waste my time repeating
what was already said and explained to persons not to be named.

Back to the lab! :D
Let's see what mischief the Quirk got into this time ;)

Also, wild&crazy sideline experiment suggested by one of my friends,
and something I intentionally did not do till now but am seriously considering
to perform soon: open up a fresh alkaline D battery and get the innards out,
so basically pull out the carbon rod and the goo around it so you're left
with the zinc tube. Or at least, in most common alkaline batteries it is still
a zinc tube with a carbon rod. Anyway, then use that zinc tube instead of the
aluminium tube, fill it with cell material, etc. See how well the zinc holds out
with a few different mixtures of material.
I do not expect it to work very well as zinc should not integrate as nicely into
most of my material mixes as aluminium does... But there is a chance it does
something interesting, and I should still have a few of those large D batteries
around somewhere...
And another idea, the ferrite/magnetite revisited; basically use a material mix with
a high iron (and/or cobalt and/or nickel) content in a specifically shaped magnetic field
(radial magnetic field) while not just polarising the material but also allowing a nice
current (of an amp or so) to run through it. Basically the same idea as some time ago,
but now with a different magnetic field appllied during solidification.
Ideas ideas... ;)
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on June 03, 2008, 01:05:54 PM
G'day all,

@Koen:  I tried the ol pull apart D cell trick and found that these days it is rare to find a carbon rod inside. There is a metal spike
coming up from the negative base, a solid thick coating of what looks like manganese dioxide on the inside of the zinc tube and the rest is filled with the alkaline paste which the spike goes into. Messy, very messy  ;D

Today I was playing around with a large pyrites crystal. It's a single unit about 1 cm cube. It has extremely smooth sides with a mirror finish.  I had a couple attempts at plating one of the sides with Gallium but the Ga did not take.
Anyway I found a small bead of Ga and dicided to spot weld it to the pyrites with the 2KV from the bug zapper. That did the trick.

Not expecting to get anything I measured a voltage across the junction. It was a massive 0.3mV  ;D.  Next I looked to see if there was any current with the AVO 8.  1uA.  These values are not going to set the world on fire BUT  the voltage and current have remaind stable all day. I reversed all the meter leads and got -0.3mV and -1uA .

The resistance is 1.6Kohm one way and 210 ohm the other.
 I tried to make another one using a clump of small pyrite crystals but got no reading at all, so I may have just got lucky with my first attempt.

I also decided to hook the digital watch up the pyrites cell ( made 2nd March ) and it is running fine on the one cell. This cell is putting out 1.302 volts with the watch as the load. (yeh I know, some load  ;D ).

If I can find a spare oscilloscope I will test to see if the watch places a frequency across the cell, I did notice the cell voltage rise slightly when the watch was attatched.  You never know a small frequency across the cell may make it work better.

Ok I'm off to earn some dosh.
Catch you later dudes  and dudette   ;D


Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on June 04, 2008, 01:19:59 PM
@Koen:  I tried the ol pull apart D cell trick and found that these days it is rare to find a carbon rod inside. There is a metal spike
coming up from the negative base, a solid thick coating of what looks like manganese dioxide on the inside of the zinc tube and the rest is filled with the alkaline paste which the spike goes into. Messy, very messy  ;D
Lol :) yeah, I could have mentioned that part I guess... ;)
It is often a messy business to dismantle batteries, and indeed nowadays many alkaline batteries no longer contain a nice carbon rod.
Many nowadays seem to consist of an isolated metal pin, not uncommonly a cheap nail, stuck in a paste-like material of some kind.
But my main aim was to get the zinc cylinder out, so it doesn't really matter much what kind of electrolyte/conductor mix they have;
I only wanted to try a zinc tube and use a D battery to get one easily.
Nice of you to pick up on it so quickly though. :D

Quote
Today I was playing around with a large pyrites crystal. It's a single unit about 1 cm cube. It has extremely smooth sides with a mirror finish.  I had a couple attempts at plating one of the sides with Gallium but the Ga did not take.
Anyway I found a small bead of Ga and dicided to spot weld it to the pyrites with the 2KV from the bug zapper. That did the trick.
;D

Quote
Not expecting to get anything I measured a voltage across the junction. It was a massive 0.3mV  ;D.  Next I looked to see if there was any current with the AVO 8.  1uA.  These values are not going to set the world on fire BUT  the voltage and current have remaind stable all day. I reversed all the meter leads and got -0.3mV and -1uA .
Hey now that ain't bad :)
and an interesting subtopic you've hit there, too...

Funny, Gallium+Pyrite or more accurately Iron-Gallium-Sulfate, is not really famous for its semiconductive properties as far as I know...
But during a session of infodigging on gallium some time ago I did come across some vaguely related compounds;
To name a few, there is the compound Nickel-Gallium-Sulfide on which a quote from the encyclopedia Brittannica which checks out
referencewise states:
Quote
For more than 30 years, scientists had been trying to verify the existence of a ?liquid? magnetic state. In theory, such a state would occur when the magnetic spins of the electrons in a material fluctuated in a disorderly fluidlike arrangement in contrast to the ordered alignment of magnetic spins that produces magnetism. Liquid magnetic states might be related to the way that electrons flow in superconducting materials. Satoru Nakatsuji and co-workers at Kyoto University synthesized a material, nickel gallium sulfide (NiGa2S4), that might demonstrate its existence. The Japanese team and researchers from Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore, Md., and... etc

Then there is an application of Gallium Sulfide as an alternate form of glass with good infrared transparency (from http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5392376.html):
Quote
This invention is directed broadly to transparent glasses exhibiting excellent transmission far into the infrared region of the electromagnetic radiation spectrum, those glasses consisting essentially, expressed in terms of mole percent, of 40-80% Ga2 S3, 0-35% RSx, wherein R is at least one network forming cation selected from the group consisting of aluminum, antimony, arsenic, germanium, and indium, 1-50% Ln2 S3, wherein Ln is at least one cation selected from the group consisting of a rare earth metal cation and yttrium, 1-45% MSx, wherein M is at least one modifying metal cation selected from the group consisting of barium, cadmium, calcium, lead, lithium, mercury, potassium, silver, sodium, strontium, thallium, and tin, and 0-10% total chloride and/or fluoride. Glass compositions consisting essentially, expressed in terms of mole percent, of 5-30% Ga2 S3, 0-10% R2 S3, wherein R is at least one network forming cation selected from the group consisting of aluminum, antimony, arsenic, and indium, 55-94.5% GeS2, 0.5-25% MSx, wherein M is at least one modifying metal cation selected from the group consisting of barium, cadmium, calcium, lead, lithium, potassium, silver, sodium, strontium, tin, yttrium, and a rare earth metal of the lanthanide series, 0-10% total selenide, 0-25% total chloride and/or fluoride, and wherein the sulfur and/or selenium content can vary between 85-125% of the stoichiometric value when doped with Pr demonstrate exceptionally high values of ͌.


Then there is the factoid, supplied mainly from the biochemical field, that Gallium apparently "looks like" Iron to many organisms, which lead to its use
as a bacteriocidal substance to MRSA bacteria according to some cources, and suggests a possible role in the biochemical cycles of certain fungi,
as stated in http://www.webelements.com/nexus/node/1167
Quote
"Gallium acts as a Trojan horse to iron-seeking bacteria," said Pradeep Singh (senior author). "Because gallium looks like iron, invading bacteria are tricked, in a way, into taking it up. Unfortunately for the bacteria, gallium can't function like iron once it's inside bacterial cells."
and http://umbbd.msi.umn.edu/periodic/elements/ga.html
Quote
Gallium and iron have similar ionic radii, and chelation by iron siderophores has been shown to be a mechanism of gallium uptake in fungi Muller et al, 1985). Gallium accumulation has also been observed in bacteria (Menon et al, 1978), and the toxicity of gallium is likely due to interference with iron-dependent metabolism (Al-Aoukaty, 1992; Olaka et al, 2000). Thiobacillus ferrooxidans can leach gallium from chalcopyrite, and evidence suggests that this organism can directly oxidize gallium sulfide (Torma, 1978).

And of course we know that Gallium-based semiconductive compounds have become very popular in the new colour LEDs, where GaAs and GaN (Gallium Arsenide
and Gallium Nitride) are used. Similar use can be made of Gallium Phosphide (according to http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/Xplore/login.jsp?url=/iel3/4100/12123/00557347.pdf?arnumber=557347), and likewise related photoemissive properties of Gallium compounds are and have been studied (as for example http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=15306989 ,"Fabrication and properties of gallium metallic photonic crystals", shows).
In the same category one tends to find the Aluminiu-Gallium compounds, such as Al-Ga-P, aluminium-gallium-phosphide, and similarly of course there are variations
combining known gallium compound semiconductors, so also Al-Ga-In-As, Al-Ga-In-P, Al-Ga-In-S, Al-Ga-Ge-Cu-Fe-As-S, etcetera. Seems if you stay in the right
"zone" you can mix any of these similar group compound semiconductors, resulting in slight variations of similar compounds. Of course we are not really looking
for photoactive materials, but the combining aspect is interesting still. For a nice little list of natural minerals that have a composition in this vacinity I suggest
checking out http://www.galleries.com/minerals/sulfides/class.htm (http://www.galleries.com/minerals/sulfides/class.htm) and if you look it up, look at Germanite for a handsome candidate. ;)

In conclusion of this post filled with more or less usefull factoids I would like to quote Wikipedia's "Gallium nitride" page:
Quote
Group III nitride semiconductors are recognized as one of the most promising materials for fabricating optical devices in the visible short-wavelength and UV region. Potential markets for high-power/high-frequency devices based on GaN include microwave radio-frequency power amplifiers (such as used in high-speed wireless data transmission) and high-voltage switching devices for power grids. A potential mass-market application for GaN-based RF transistors is as the microwave source for microwave ovens, replacing the magnetrons currently used. The large band gap means that the performance of GaN transistors is maintained up to higher temperatures than silicon transistors.The first Gallium Nitride metal/oxide semiconductor field-effect transistor (GaN MOSFET) was experimentally demonstrated by Weixiao Huang of Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute in early 2008.

So I'm getting the impression we may have a winning ingredient in our Gallium there, Ian! ;) :D

see you guys later :)
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on June 11, 2008, 01:19:16 AM
Hi all :)

brief little update:
- "Quirk" still active ;)
- PC running 14+ day datalogging of 4 cells crashed,
 now under investigation, fearing the worst :-[
- very experimental plate-based cell versions under
construction, several different mold types, got a few mixes in mind :)
- came up with possible way to use thermoelectric effect of different
metals to produce a charge on electrodes of a cell (for 'polarisation'
purposes) while inside a 1000 degree C oven/kiln. ;D
(without need for connection to charge source outside it)
- have developed a desire for Galena, for some odd reason :D
- Rochelle salt based "Hutchison" type cell seems to have gone flat.
  I will have to re-melt the stuff sometime in the near future I guess.
  Will see if I can get a nice high voltage source to charge it this time...
  ... or maybe I should just use my bug zapper, hey Ian? ;) :D
- am considering to mix up a batch with Gallium, Iron pyrite, Iron oxide,
Silver, perhaps a little Germanium, maybe some Gold. Don't know why the
gold, but since I have a little lying around waiting to be used in a mix I might
as well. :) Second mix in consideration: the above, plus a little bit of tin, lead
and bismuth. Got that lying around too, and though I'd be surprised if it did
anything with RS, it might with silicate. Both mixes to be tried with silver sand
and R.salt, and with sand/quartz and silicate base mix. Maybe even with sand
and a little bit of waterglass. :)

All the best
Koen
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on June 11, 2008, 11:59:21 AM
G'day all,

@Koen:  Sorry to hear about your pc, I hope the logger is ok, in this game it is a most valuable piece of test gear.
By shear coincidence I dug out my 2 peltier devices today to see if they would be of any use, it seems Koen you have given
me an idea ( on yer  ;D ).
Nothing wrong with having a desire for galena, I'm quite partial to the stuff myself  ;D ;D

Had a bit of a slack week, basically I've run out of resources. Did however manage to mix up and cook a batch of iron oxide and sulphur in a 1:1 molar ratio. The brittle crystaline mass showed no special electrical properties that I could detect. But may make a good ingredient in a future mix.

The galvanic side of my pyrite cell became painfully obvious when I froze it at -15c for 3 days. The voltage dropped from 1.308V
to 0.898V and the current went awol. :(

How are you other guys getting on? Got any results we can use  :)

See you later

Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on June 12, 2008, 02:07:15 PM
G'day all,
G'day mate! ;D (crikey?)

Quote
@Koen:  Sorry to hear about your pc, I hope the logger is ok, in this game it is a most valuable piece of test gear.
Datalogger seems to be fine, which is good, 'cuz it's worth more to me than the entire old laptop. ;)
Still unclear what caused the crash, am running diagnostic program to figure out where the problem was.
Maybe I should install Ubuntu linux on the old laptop and just run the logger software in Xwin...

Quote
By shear coincidence I dug out my 2 peltier devices today to see if they would be of any use, it seems Koen you have given
me an idea ( on yer  ;D ).
Yes yes, you got it. :) Lol only need to give a hint and you pick it up :) My idea was actually
simpler, just thinking of attaching a Nickel plate to the one electrode and an Iron plate to the other, possibly using nickel and
iron wire or direct contact... But of course Peltier elements should contain very nice bimetallic junctions than might be even more
usefull. :) It depends what metals they are and what metal(s) you are using for electrodes. For example, if you're using aluminium
and copper as electrodes you may want to avoid using any of the metals that are positioned in between them in the thermoelectric series,
like titanium, chromium, or tin. But yeah, that's the basic idea. For really high voltages I guess we still need to work something out.
Quote
Nothing wrong with having a desire for galena, I'm quite partial to the stuff myself  ;D ;D
:D

Quote
Had a bit of a slack week, basically I've run out of resources. Did however manage to mix up and cook a batch of iron oxide and sulphur in a 1:1 molar ratio. The brittle crystaline mass showed no special electrical properties that I could detect. But may make a good ingredient in a future mix.
Hmm interesting, so is the compound now iron sulphate? I just happen to have acquired some cobalt sulphate the other week, it is a nice redish orange crystal grain. Nonconductive, and so far
I have not found a very good use for it, but it is apparently used in glazing as a binder... May be worth mixing with some pyrite and galena... ;)

Quote
The galvanic side of my pyrite cell became painfully obvious when I froze it at -15c for 3 days. The voltage dropped from 1.308V
to 0.898V and the current went awol. :(
Aw.  :-\ Well, that's a pity. Then again, a 0.898V static charge is still not bad for a homemade electret,
even if it has zero amps. ;) And although it does indeed suggest galvanic reaction, there is also a chance that there is some pyroelectric effect at play.
Which would obviously also disappear when frozen. But yes, I do get the impression it was galvanic.

And yes, who else is still doing experiments,
and what have you guys managed to come up with? :D
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on June 12, 2008, 03:56:32 PM
G'Day all,

While the pyrite cell was in the freezer I slapped a 22kohm resistor across it and after 3 hours the voltage dropped to 6.5mV.
After another 24 hours I released it from it's frozen tomb and removed the resistor. 3 hours later at room temperature it's voltage
was back up to 1 285V and powering the digital watch. Galvanics aside, it's a tenacious little bugger. ;D

@Koen: I'm not sure what I made with the Sulphur and iron oxide so I did a quick web search and came across US pat 4753756.
If you have time check it out. It may be worth investigating.
The S FeO2 matrix seems to an ideal binder for tourmaline and pyrites. In it's molten state it is easy to manage and is very uniform
in it's consistancy. I'll work on it some more this weekend. :)

Ok tea break over, back to work  ;D

regards   Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: sutra on June 12, 2008, 07:53:29 PM
hi guys,
I'm back and now I have galena!!!!

My first cell is made with a can metallic cork and 50 Euro cents....
submitted to 20V DC during curing, it pushes 1,7 V....

I'll keep it to cool nicely for a while sealed in a plastic bag, Let's see what hapens in a couple of hours.

The amount of materials used is about 4 gr in total.

I used galena, quartz dust, Rochelle salt only I still have to grind some pyrite to add to the mix.

Ciao
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: sutra on June 12, 2008, 09:30:15 PM
The voltage dropped to 1.1 V, stable also after short circuiting for some minutes. NO AMPS......
I'll leave it overnight in a sealed bag short circuited and I'll see tomorrow what the outcome will be.

I wonder, if 4 Gr of stuff pushes a good voltage, what would do a kilo of it....

Bye
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on June 12, 2008, 10:15:08 PM
G"day all,

@Sutra: Well done, good to see you're still at it. :)
Just be careful when crushing galena, it's dust is highly poisonous.
Can you tell me what type of metal a  50 cent euro coin is made of.

All the best

Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: sutra on June 13, 2008, 09:33:00 AM
hi Ian,
here is the composition of the 50 cents:

Cu, 5Zn, 5Al, 1Sn


@all
after 10 hours shortcircuited, the cell outputs 50 mV, rising up fast if left alone.

I'll keep it sealed for some time without load to see if it goes back to the initial output.

bye bye
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on June 13, 2008, 11:57:35 AM
Ah nice one Sutra. :)

Good to see you're still with us ;)

Now let's hope you can get your cell to pump out some amps too eh? :D

@Ian: that patent you mentioned, I've only scanned through it quickly
but I don't see much more than a description of the ferrox-sulphur compound
with lead mixed in to make a radiation shield... I get the impression the
base compound is only used as a fairly simple yet usefull "ceramic"-like material...
Did I overlook something there?

Oh, I opened up a big D battery or at least tried to, then discovered it was still charged,
got all kinds of sparks and electrolyte spilling all over the place, the battery casing became
extremely hot, had to let go of it and quickly dumped it in a plastic container... :)
Should be ok to continue to dismantle in a day or so.

Kind regards!
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: sutra on June 13, 2008, 07:39:24 PM
@all

WOW GUYS.......


after 10 hours free in the bag, the cell now pumps a wooping 77mV slightly rising up of 10mV if the cell get kept in the hands (warmth sensitive even without pyroelectric materials involved)....

AMPS?

don't even ask....

I'm wondering if size DOES MATTER in this case...

Back to the bench grinding some pyrite to add to the mix, and this time, I'll make sure to build a BIG one....

Ciao
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: sutra on June 16, 2008, 10:33:22 PM
Hello All,

Here is my latest cell.

I Used an AA and a C Battery cells emptied of their snorty filling and replaced with a mix made of pure Quartz dust, Pyrite dust, Galena dust, a small percentage of synthetic ruby dust and around 50% of the whole mix of Rochelle salt: 50% in weight looks to me to be the smallest quantity to obtain a satifying liquid consistancy to the mix while stirring.

As It appears from the various J.H. videos my mix looks considerably darker than his, perhaps I should reduce the quantity of heavy components since I've noted that incresing the quantity of quartz dust, the voltage output of the cell increases.

I let the cell curing for about 2 hours submitted to a 8 VDC electric field (a Nokia battery recharger  ;))....

As you can see in the pic, the cell output was then a massive 2,2 V, left alone sealed in a plastic bag overnight, it now pumps a steady 0,576 V (+/- 1).

As concerning Amps, I discovered that the meter is broken, that's why I couldn't have any current reading from either latest cells...I'll let you know as soon as I get another one...

I'll keep the cell shorted overnight to see results.

Any suggestions are wellcome.

Enjoy the pics.

Ciao
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on June 17, 2008, 12:08:35 PM
@Sutra: Thanks for posting your pics Sutra! :)

I like your 50cent-cell, it's a nice size and looks quite cool. ;)

As for the colour, that depends quite a bit on the amount of
metal. Indeed, the stuff JH shows in his videos tends to look
much more white-ish than the grey material on your pics.
I myself have also not produced any JH cells with that nice
white colour... Although perhaps I should mention that
I have not seen any clear pictures of what JH's cell material
looks like after solidifying and drying and all... So it could be
that his final material looks just as grey as yours does.
The JH cell(s) I made so far all had this greyish hue, but
I have made test batches of material that did turn out quite white(ish).
I shall attach a pic to this post that shows a small ceramic dish
in which I baked a mix of R.salt, quartz sand, a tiny bt of titanium
dioxide powder, a bit of luminescent powder, and a pinch of
aluminium powder. And waterglass. It was well mixed to a liquid goo
and consisted for the most part of R.salt (70%) and quartz sand (20-25%).
I heated it at 120-130 degrees C for about 30 to 45 minutes, and after that
I was lucky to be able to get the stirring rod out before it hardened completely.
Totally useless chunk of hard material now, no way to get it out without
destroying the ceramic dish... But at least I now know exactly what that mix
composition does. Ok, it reacts very similar to most such mixes, but
I just wanted to show you it is well possible to make a whiteish material
with the R.salt base. ;) (the square metal cell on the left side of that pic
is a totally different mix of mostly metals, oxides, and some binder)

@Ian: lookit, we've got another cell builder! :D
;)
Oh, and here's a picture of the Quirk tube for your entertainment. :)
I took some more but the closeups of the gooey "sweat" did
not come out right so this one will have to do for now.
I put it next to a fesh clean tube so you can see what the Quirk did
to the aluminium. The dark discoloration and the "sweat" on
the outside of the tube are clearly visible, although unfortunately
it is not so clearly visibe that most of it actually did not drip down
from the rim, but actually came through the cylinder wall...
The copper cylinder I rolled of a piece of copper foil can be seen sticking
out the top of the alu tube, and the nice blue line indicates where
the top of the tube used to be before the Quirk started working it up.
I have as of yet not tested the cell for output as a) the stuff is still not
dry ergo yucky goo on the equipment b) idem dito ergo high chance
of galvanics c) aluminium + gallium + moisture = continuous aluminium
oxidation mediated/catalysed by the gallium => alu oxidation does not
stop untill all the aluminium has been converted into alumina => galvanics.
I did tell you about that, did I not? Al-Ga alloy, beside it forming funky
jelly-like material, has this tendency... Basically pure Al just oxidises immediately
on a monoatomic film on its outer surface, and then it stops. Pure Ga does
not oxidise rapidly in air at all, but it is more mobile at lower temperatures,
and it does have an affinity with Al, plus its atoms can creep into the pores of
the Al; what seems to happen is that the alumina is more of an obstacle and
has much less affinity with Ga in its interatomic movement, so the Ga creeps
over it and happens to drag a fresh Al atom along which when exposed to air
oxidises immediately. This way the Aluminiums natural "defence" against corrosion,
its "trick" to only oxidise its outermost monoatomic layer, is circumvented and
100% of the Al can oxidise.
Anyway, this suggests that I can leave the Quirk as is and in a couple of weeks or
months the tube should start falling apart...
One cool trick to be done with Al-Ga alloy: put some Al-Ga pellets in clean water
and watch the hydrogen bubble up! :) Pros: quite a bit of hydrogen fast; Cons:
you'll end up with alumina and Ga, and the only good way to make pure Al is
to perform electrolysis on alumina, which obviously costs more than you can
get out in hydrogen, so it is not as efficient as just performing electrolysis on
water itself to produce hydrogen. So not a winner yet.

Best regards! :D
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: AbbaRue on June 17, 2008, 07:00:46 PM
@sutra
I don''t think your meter is broken, it just needs a new fuse for the mA section.
This is a common thing, I keep burning mine out too.
Taking milliamp readings is the riskiest thing to do, just go a little over and the fuse blows.
I wish someone could invent a protection circuit for meters when taking mA readings.

Anyway good stuff.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: AbbaRue on June 17, 2008, 07:23:28 PM
@Koen1
Maybe you should try putting some chromium in there with the Ga Al
and as the Al oxidizes it might produce some ruby.  :)

From your use of silica gel would you say it has any potential for these cells. 
Interesting that silica gel, glass, and quartz are just different forms of oxidized silicon.
I believe it's just heat and pressure that converts the one into the other.
I have a large supply of the silica gel so I can experiment if it shows potential.
They sell silica gel for kitty liter if anyone is interested in it.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: sutra on June 19, 2008, 11:34:21 AM
@ Koen

Wow man, maybe you should start a blog about new life forms creations....playing God with GEOGOO....lol
Nice pictures collection, I wonder on what are you working right now...

@ Abbarue
Yep, as I opened the tester, the fuse was obviously blown...

@ All OK, now I can tell you some amps readings:

The latest cell I've made swapped several times polarity oscillating from - 0,54..V to + 0,5...V
so I've melted everything again to submit it to higher potential (12VDC) but I've noticed that the mix got more dense 'cause probably I've burned some Rochelle salt in it with the heating, then I added some more Salt (2,6 gr) and the mixture got immediately very liquid.
The mix colour is still the same since the Rochelle salt tends to be quite colourless but now the cell is full till the edge and I now saw something I didn't before: the mix expands sensibly when still liquid and submitted to Voltage while curing and it "freezes" expanded.
I thought that would have been a good sign, but it isn't:
 after curing, the cell was pumping 1,231 V at 0.345 milliAmps....not bad, but dropping at rate of 0,3 V in +/- 1 hour.
After a whole night sealed in bag without load, now the cell output a tiny 0,08V at 9 microAmps....

The button cell version, with the old bad mix, seems to perform better...

At least I now now that Rochelle takes part in the play but too much in the mix, reduces the cell's performances.

I'm wondering what component to increase now and if a curing under very high voltage (20kV DC) could make any difference...
I'll also try to replace the positive electrode in the cell with a copper one.

What do you guys think?

Ciao
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on June 20, 2008, 11:19:40 AM
@sutra: Lol Geogoo ;D

As to your R.salt cell, I would suggest first trying to repolarise it at higher voltage,
if you really want to add anything I would go for Germanium but if you don't have it
perhaps adding a little bit of carbon powder might be usefull...
You already have a fairly high pyrite and galena content in there, and you could try
to add a little more, but I'm not sure that will help much... But it might.

Also, polarisation of the material may (most likely will) be different if you apply
the voltage directly, compared to for example an electrostatic induction.
(Wrap the tube in a layer of isolator material and wrap a layer of aluminium foil
around that, then apply the polarisation voltage to that outermost layer and it should
electrostatically induce the opposite charge on the tube, without direct current feed
to it.) The material will "feel" electrostatic polarisation, but will not behave like
an electrolyte to transport the current.
So you might try that...?

Just some suggestions. :)
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on July 13, 2008, 01:06:07 PM
G'Day all,

I see theres a big hole appeared in this thread.  Time to patch it up I think. :)

Anyway, 2 more cells rolled off the production line this weekend.
The first one was basically a remake of my pyrites cell which is by far my best performer so far, sitting at 1.318V and running a watch.
The only difference in the ingredients is the addition of 10g of rochelle salt and both electrodes are made of aluminium.
Employing the usual method of crushing, mixing, cooking, pouring and cooking some more I landed up with a pretty standard size cell.
After polarizing the cooling mixture to 350V the voltage across the cell rapidly dropped and as expectected went through zero volts and settled at - 0.437V. The reversal of polarity seems to be a common occurance with these things.

This cell which I named Pyrites 3 was put on dead short for 24 hours. Within minutes of removing the short the voltage was back over 0.4V. But as with most of the cells the current is pretty weak. ( at the moment).
From experience I have found that if a cell is going to work, it will gain in strength over time. You cannot judge a cells performance on the first few days results. Also shorting them for long periods tends to beef them up. ;D

Anyway it is back on short circuit and I'll check it again next week.

The second cell was a combination stuff that worked and stuff that didn't.

Here is the formula:

  15g   quartz sand
  15g   silicon carbide
    5g   rochelle salt
    1g   borax
 .01g   graphite
  1 tsp concentrated sodium silicate solution
  0.5g  tourmaline

The whole lot mixed and cooked until the RS and Na2SiO3 melted togther and then poured into an aluminium tube.
The positive electrode was copper. ( not heat treated)

This cell I have called the Borax cell ( Eric didn't seem to fit  ;D )
I did not polarize this one because as soon as it was made the voltage was 1.625 volts , admittedly it was still hot.
However once it had cooled to room temperature it's voltage had dropped to 1.55 V. Not bad I thought, but the datalogger load brings it down to 0.74V.  I'll make no claims on it's stability until it has run in this mode for a week at least.
Nonetheless it's higher than normal open circuit voltage is quite interesting.

Ok , over to you guys, and comments welcome.  ;D

Catch yo later

Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: hitech70 on July 18, 2008, 05:12:19 AM
I joined this group because of this one subject building a free energy power cell.

Of course these voltages are not so much an issue with this Power Cell project.
The problem is Current, No Pressure the led will never light up.
In John's videos, I noticed that he used a Large Stainless Steel Container's, thus the bigger, the more conductor of electric power and contact with his formula. As well as nice size middle inner core for the node.
What amazed me was the current and voltage that he used was suspend or frozen in time.

So here we go, my mix an Electrolyte + Metalictic Conductor + Isolator + Polymer That once dries hardens.
I am cooking several different formulas to which I am waiting to cure out....
An Yes, Salt is the Electrolyte, The Metallic Conductor, I am using a various metals...(No Recomendation Now)
The Isolator is the Silica or Sand.
Polymer any that hardens after being heated and electrically charged.

My Search Is For Current:
My record is 5mili Amps and 1/2 Volt DC...
My blunder is that I should of record my mix of 3 weeks ago... A huge mistake....

I think it so cool to be in a group, who is trying to Crack the formula...
John's patent is a secret... It will never be revealed...
I have searched YouTube to see if one has cracked as well as look for other Web Sites on this Subject.

Off The Wall, I know so people who filled patients waiting for 3 Years...
Those who spent more than 8 thousand Dollars...
An one day they got letters, stating that there invention is conflict of US interest and Military apllications.

If any you gain more than 25mili amps of continous DC Current in a Dry Cell Please let me know.
Just Advice == Always document every thing you do, including your mixtures.
Even use a stop watch and record you time as you heat or cook your formula's.  In Every Detail.... 


Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 18, 2008, 07:11:44 AM
hitech70:

Yes, always good advice and sometimes, due to the heat of the moment, not always easy to follow.  Trust me, I have been there.  Does Hutch have a patent on this stuff?  If so, the formula should be spelled out.  (One of the many reasons I don't like patents)

From my work in the Stubblefield coils/earth batteries areas, I agree that power is everything.  We are still measuring in mA's but at least they are going up.  Good for you for getting measurable mA's.  I believe in scale.  If you can get mA's in a small device, one the size of a 55 gallon drum would be much, much higher. (or 2, or 10, or 15 drums)  This is a great topic.

Bill
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on July 18, 2008, 04:21:10 PM
I joined this group because of this one subject building a free energy power cell.
Well welcome to our thread then :)
Always nice to have another guy in here who actually wants to do some experimenting!

Quote
Of course these voltages are not so much an issue with this Power Cell project.
The problem is Current, No Pressure the led will never light up.
Yes, the goal at the moment
is to get a higher amperage out, indeed. We have the volts, we need some more amps. ;)

Quote
In John's videos, I noticed that he used a Large Stainless Steel Container's, thus the bigger, the more conductor of electric power and contact with his formula. As well as nice size middle inner core for the node.
Well actually, if you watched all of Hutchisons videos, you would see that he very clearly shows one of his smallest
cells and says it produces the highest output of all ("a little powerhouse" he calls it), much higher than the large
artillery shell sized ones...
So that appears to show that the size of the container does not at all necessarily increase the output.
Which is also what I have found so far: my large cells do not produce significantly more output than
the smaller versions, output and container size do not apper to be directly proportional at all.
But of course that depends on the mix you use: a large container of weak output mix is still
not as good as a smaller container of strong output mix. You need to get the mix right, then
you can try variations on the mix, the container size and material, etc.
And what exactly do you mean with "nice size core for the node"? Node?
Quote
What amazed me was the current and voltage that he used was suspend or frozen in time.
... err... okay...? Please clarify what you just said? current frozen in time? ???
If you mean that he used high voltage DC then yeah, but he was quite vague when Feynman phoned
in on his radio interview and asked him about it... Hutchison then first said he used very clean and
constant high voltage DC, but then later he said he used pulsed high voltage... And there's more stuff
he said that seems contradictory. I am not sure how much information you have on his cells,
but despite the name of this thread we do not focus on Hutchisons specific Crystal Cells only.
Hutchisons cell work is just very closely related, but there are a few others who have come up
with similar Crystal cell ideas completely or largely independantly. And since Hutchison seems
unwilling to share the details, I do keep an eye on what he puts out but in general he does not
produce much info to work with at all, and he hardly replies to emails, and even then he does not
give any helpfull information.
So we continue to ponder and develop our own theories on the subject which have so far produced
a few interesting prototypes that are way too low amperage but still seem promising.
My point? Well I guess something like: don't get too hung up on Hutchisons videos ;)

Quote
So here we go, my mix an Electrolyte + Metalictic Conductor + Isolator + Polymer That once dries hardens.
I am cooking several different formulas to which I am waiting to cure out....
An Yes, Salt is the Electrolyte, The Metallic Conductor, I am using a various metals...(No Recomendation Now)
The Isolator is the Silica or Sand.
Polymer any that hardens after being heated and electrically charged.

My Search Is For Current:
My record is 5mili Amps and 1/2 Volt DC...
My blunder is that I should of record my mix of 3 weeks ago... A huge mistake....
Well sounds like a start! :D
Most of my test cells put out around 1 volt at about half that amperage,
and some of them around what you're getting out too. So far that seems to be in the right
direction eh? ;)

But how dry is the stuff really? What is its water content?
After all, salt and sand tend to retain a lot of water...
And as long as there's water in there, even though the material may look and feel dry,
even tiny amounts of water in the material can and probably will cause galvanic
reactions to occur. And then you don't have a crystal energy cell, but rather a fairly
primitive galvanic battery....
The other guys who experiment with this stuff and myself included, tend to leave
the stuff out to dry in a special dry place or drying box for several months,
preferably "shorted" with a wire or resistor, to make sure we get as much of the
water out as possible.
Otherwise we may get really excited over an output reading that turn out to have
been galvanic later on... Many cells seem promising after construction, and many
drastically drop in output and even stop producing output at all after a few weeks.
Some materials have such a high water retention that even putting them out in the
sun for days on end doesn't dry them unless you leave them out to dry for several
months even. Of course this depends on the air humidity and such, so putting the
stuff on a dry box should help there.
Anyway, guess what one of these materials is that has such a hard time drying
completely? Yep: salt. ;) So I guess what I'm trying to say is: watch out with the
water content of your material. ;)

Quote
I think it so cool to be in a group, who is trying to Crack the formula...
John's patent is a secret... It will never be revealed...
No, I don't think he ever will give us more clear info on the subject.
But then again, he's been spending a lot of time corresponding with his new
web friend Paris Hilton, so I guess he doesn't have much time left to spend
revealing the secrets of free energy to the world. ;D
Quote
I have searched YouTube to see if one has cracked as well as look for other Web Sites on this Subject.
And? Did you find anything besides this thread, Hutchisons videos, the Electrinium stuff, and perhaps one or two obscure
inventors? :)

Quote
Just Advice == Always document every thing you do, including your mixtures.
Even use a stop watch and record you time as you heat or cook your formula's.  In Every Detail.... 
Lol well I think everyone tries to...
But not ever cell material mix is a s simple as sand, salt and water. Some of them engage in
chemical reactions and/or need to be watched and stirred intently as the right moment of
reaction or de/hydration can most easily be confirmed visually, at wich point one may need
to perform additional procedures quickly before the critical point is passed and you're left with
failed reaction product batch 123. For example. ;) So it is not always possible to really stopwatch
the times or record exact temperatures while you're scurrying around the lab with a batch of
boiling hot fizzing acidic solution. As I'm sure you understand. :)
Aside from that, it is indeed a good idea to record your experiments.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on July 19, 2008, 02:01:02 AM
G'Day all,

@hitech70:  welcome  ;D

@Koen:  g'day mate, you make a good point with regard to the difficulties in recording the times and activities
on the run so to speak. Each mix and each cell are never the same.

So with that in mind I'm going to advertise for an assistant.  ;D
Green skin, humpback and stoop not manditory, blonde and 36" bust an advantage.  ;D ;D
Must have previous experience with boiling sulphur.

Ok Egor, go get your sister, there is work to be done.


see yer   ;D
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: sutra on July 22, 2008, 09:30:04 PM
Hi guys,
I've been a bit silent lately only 'cause of the work and 'cause I've screwed my tester trying to reach very high voltages....luckily avoiding lighting myself....
I tried to get high V from the circuitry in a 15W low consumption light bulb....but I get a bit nervous messing with that stuff since high Voltage means solid death risk...
Well the highest voltage I can reach so far is 356Vdc in very short bursts, but I bet it will not be enough.
The latest power cell I realized had been sealed in a plastic bag since my last post and now pumps a stable 0.276 V and 3 micro Amps. The resistivity measure around 15 MOhm decreasing during test, just like a condenser. I don't think I'm obtaining a galvanic reaction....

Before changing mix I think it will be necessary to increase the working Voltages in order to establish a good electret in the mixture.

Does anyone have a better idea to reach high voltages not using cascade circuits?

ciao

 
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: AbbaRue on July 23, 2008, 07:33:11 AM
If you can get yourself a variable HO gauge train transformer, and an old microwave transformer.
You can make a good variable HV power supply out of that.
30 Volts fed into a microwave transformer will give you about 600 Volts output.
Microwave transformers step up the voltage about 18 times, so you can calculate the output.
Then buy some 1000 Volt 6 Amp diodes and your all set. 
I bought my diodes for about 25 cents a piece from the following place.
http://www.futurlec.com/DiodesPower.shtml

Hope this helps.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: AbbaRue on July 23, 2008, 07:33:56 AM
Strange things going on with this forum.
Keep having problems posting tonight.
Got duplicate posts.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: AbbaRue on July 23, 2008, 07:36:31 AM
Duplicate Post.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: triffid on July 29, 2008, 11:41:32 PM
test,just wanted a link back to this thread.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on July 30, 2008, 03:59:26 PM
G'day all,

@triffid, looks like it worked.

@All, please read up on the work done by J C Bose. It has a great deal of relevence  to this thread.

More soon

Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: triffid on July 30, 2008, 06:46:06 PM
I have a friend who came up with a cast earth recipe.He made some samples of it and showed them to me.He used dirt and plaster of paris combinations.He said the problem he had at the time was that it set up too fast for him to do much with it.So he asked me for help(I'm a chemist B.S.)
.I told him to use table salt to slow down the plaster of paris setting time.So He used that and found out that worked much to his delight.This stuff hardens at room temp but someone here might want mix this up with whatever and connect it to a tv screen for high voltage while its setting?
Then test for voltages?Just wondering?Triffid
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: AbbaRue on July 30, 2008, 07:22:00 PM
Yes there is another good source of HV.
Place some Aluminum Foil against the front of  an old TV set picture tube,
with a wire connected to it, and find a ground point on the TV for the other wire.
Then you have a safe and easy to make HV source.

Nice to have a Chemist B.S working on this cell. 
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: triffid on July 30, 2008, 08:17:21 PM
Thanks for the compliment.Although my area really isn't geochemistry.Its not too hard for me to understand whats going on here.I have worked some with kilns too.I have a knowledge of electronics too,my dad repaired tvs and radios when I was a kid,often at the kitchen table.I had a year of nuclear chemistry at the University of Arkansas,otherwise just General Chemistry.Just a bunch of stuff in general.I am very interested in free energy
,zero point,whatever you call it.I have had amazing success with Lakhovsky coils as I reported in another thread here at overunity.My arthritis cured up in a month of wearing two of them.I looked over this threadup to the first 5 pages.And learned things I never knew.Like Sand makes a good capacitor
up to 2000 volts.Thats useful to me.Second,tourmaline produces dc with changes in temp.I will be coming back here often.Triffid
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: sutra on July 30, 2008, 09:22:46 PM
@ Triffid, welcome onboard.

@ all
I saw that to achieve the Amperage of the usual cells the internal structure of a battery is made to obtain hugely surfaced electrodes, the concept may help since the big problem so far is the low output amperage of our cells.

I'll try to reuse my latest cell as is but changing one cilindric electrode with a fine metallic mosquito net rolled several times like a spiral, it may boost current flow....

@ Abbarue: you genius!!!

Ciao
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: triffid on July 31, 2008, 01:18:21 AM
that cast earth recipe is follows:
by weight
1)dirt-8.5 oz
2)plaster of paris-1.5oz
3)water-2.5 oz
4)salt-1.5 oz
this mix cured in 3-4 hours
without salt it cures in 30min.------Triffid
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: therealrasta on July 31, 2008, 01:29:34 AM
that cast earth recipe is follows:
by weight
1)dirt-8.5 oz
2)plaster of paris-1.5oz
3)water-2.5 oz
4)salt-1.5 oz
this mix cured in 3-4 hours
without salt it cures in 30min.------Triffid

What is the dirt composed off?  This is my understanding of dirt/soil.

Soil is a complex, unconsolidated mixture of inorganic, organic, and living material that is found on the immediate surface of the earth that supports plant life. Dirt is any fine-grained, unconsolidated mixture that comes from the ground. Sediment is granular material that has been eroded by the forces of nature. Thus, soil can be considered dirt, and it can consist of sediments, but dirt and sediments are not necessarily soil.

Hard to be scientific when just using random dirt..
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on July 31, 2008, 11:53:02 AM
Sounds like one sober rasta there ;)
:D

@ Triffid: As for the plaster "of Paris" or common gypsum plaster,
mr. Reid has a friend, dr. Staschewski, who has done his
own experiments with several types of rock and plaster
and found plaster to be able to produce a small potential difference
in two electrodes, but only while the plaster still retained moisture.
As soon as the entire plaster/gypsum block has dried, it stopped
producing voltage.  Note that he did not use dirt in it or anything else,
just a tube filled with plaster.

My own tries with plaster/gypsum based mixes were not very encouraging;
I did manage to get a voltage from one or two but that dropped drastically as
they dried, and some of them were complete duds from the start...
I myself have given up on calcite and calcium-based materials, at least while
I'm working with the mixes I have developed so far. I may decide to revisit at some
point.
Nobody I now of that has been working on crystal cells (and I mean the front liners
like John and Reid) uses calcium compounds as the main ingredient.
Just fyi.


@ Sutra: yes, obviously classic methods of multiplying output of a cell could be used,
such as stacking several thereby increasing surface area.
But you'll still need your basic cell to work and produce some volts and amps.
And the amps won't go up much by stacking them, though the volts will...
However, you'll need a stackable version eh? Now that's not as easy as it may sound.
Cylindrical versions are easy, they are container and electrode in one.
Flat and stackable versions are quite a bit more difficult to make.
Of course it depends on what materials you use; I've been using a mix that
needs to react chemically before I add the last ingredients (like silver sand
in most and often other stuff too), and it needs to bond with the metal while
drying... but I've found out my switching to a flat boxlike mold in attempts to
produce a flat version appear to give me a whole different rate of evaporation
and drying which apparently has quite some influence in how well the material
bonds with the metal, as well as on its overall material structure. In the end,
most of the flat versions I've tried to make so far turned out useless.
Of course, with other materials you may not have that problem... But you may
still run into the altered drying rate problem if you're using things like plaster...
Just something to keep in mind here I think.

As for other ideas for increasing surface area, I've used a coil of wire as the
inner electrode, and I've also tried "+" and "*" shapes from folded copper
foil, as well as simply taking some fine copper wire and tangling it up
into one big fuzzy knot, then wound that aound a copper rod... All of these
seemed to increase output voltage a little, but not terribly much.
The coil and the "fuzz" worked equally well, maybe the "fuzz" even worked
slightly better.

@Ian: ah, the little known Indian who invented solid-state microwave devices
before they were even interesting to the west, and who came up with the
bose-einstein condensate in correspondance with Einstein? Alright,
what about him? He used quartz blocks as the microwave waveguides...
Is that it? Or is there something more interesting about him? ;)

Good to see the thread is becoming more active again :D

Best regards everyone! :D
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: AbbaRue on July 31, 2008, 10:11:12 PM
I came up with another safe HV source.
Many hardware stores are selling electronic mosquito killers.
They look like a tennis racket with wires in it.
They work on 2 AA batteries and pack quite a jolt.
Maybe could be rewired to work off a 3 volt adapter to save on batteries.
I bought one while on holidays in northern Ontario for about $6.
Comes in handy around the house for flies and mosquitoes too.
So you may want to buy 2 of them, one for experimenting and one for killing bugs.. ;D
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on August 01, 2008, 12:26:25 PM
Didn't Ian mention using such a "bug zapper" long ago?
I'm sure he did.

But yes, easy to obtain hV sources would be a TV screen
with a piece of alu foil stuck to it and a wire connected to that,
or a bug zapper, or a handheld taser, or a tesla coil,
or an electric fence transformer (you can get small ones that
run off a 9V battery and put out 1000V DC pulses, about
the size of a matchbox or pack of cigarettes, and quite cheap)...

If you only want hV static for polarisation, you could even use
simple electrostatic generators, like a simple Electrophorus,
a Wimshurst device, a vandeGraaff generator, or a homopolar generator...

But if you want to have a hV source that you can adjust to put out
some exact voltage and amperage, then you'll need something more
precise and more controllable, and then you're looking at proper
adjustable transformers and adjustable "lab" power supplies.
And those are expensive. Unless you build one yourself, of course. ;)
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: triffid on August 01, 2008, 03:36:35 PM
I saw the cast earth samples my friend had made and I was impressed with the results.While they may be be more suitable for filling holes in walls,I thought it could prove to be a suitable matrix for some of the experimenters here.I also read a book about electrons in crystals and how they diffuse through a crystal (temp dependent) much like how the smell from an open bottle of perfume spreads throughout a room.If a electric charge is applied sometimes a residual charge remains.My friend used oklahoma red dirt very little organic material.I was not there when he made it but I didn't see any grass in the samples.I would try more sand myself since it was mentioned here earlier that a good capacitor
could be made from it.Maybe two or more layers of sand could do something in a cell.Also I found out that all electrical properties(resistance,capacitance,etc) could be put on a silicon chip except for inductance.I never knew that before.Triffid
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on August 01, 2008, 06:58:49 PM
Triffid,

another feature of sand, in the form of SiO2 and not so much as "dirt",
is that it is (or can be made) into an electret, as in that it is a "polarisable"
dielectric (or "ferroelectric" if you will). Also interesting. :)

And on the subject of crystal lettices and the electron diffusion, that is indeed
related and very interesting. Mind you, there is a somewhat related subject of
ion difusion and ion transport in ceramic and other crystalline materials, which
is probably also a good subject to read up on in this context as quite a few materials
allow for thermally driven ion transport through their quasi-porous matrix
(example: sodium ions move through alumina on thermal input alone), and this
can result in false output readings. (As in that during a certain period the ions
may move and shuttle charges to the electrodes which may seem like actual
"crystal cell" output but will eventually stop when the ion concentration on the
thermal "input" side becomes too low, so the cell was actually a thermal ion
battery with the thermal input normal environmental heat and the ions put in
during production of the ceramic-like material. Okay, usually such ion transport
setups need quite high temperatures way above room temp, but is can occur
at lower temperatures too.)
But crystal lettices, electron diffusion and lettice interactions, and not in the least
pn-juncions are all good subjects to study in this respect, I think. ;)
However, I think we may not want to put too much emphasis on the temperature
as input... after all, a ZPE cell seems much more desirable than a thermal cell...
doesn't it? ;)

Oh, as for sand and "dirt", if your friend wants to make sure he's got sand containing
mostly SiO2 and Fe2O3 (red sand usually consists of actual quartz sand SiO2 and ferrous oxide
of the red variety a.k.a. Hematite, and a certain level of contaminants), it may be
worthwile simply "washing" the sand in clean water... Just put the sand in a lot of water
and shake or stirr it well untill the water becomes murky and dirty and most of the sand
is still on the bottom as mud, then pour off the dirty water and refill, repeat it untill you
only get relatively little dirt in the water, now most of the contaminants have washed out.
I use high purity quartz sand sold as "silver sand" (high grade, you have cheap versions too
in which you tend to find bits of other rock, other sand, sometimes even twigs), that is
really clean already and consists mostly of tiny SiO2 crystals. I add my own iron if I need it. ;)
I do this because I find it much easier and more controllable to start with pure ingredients
and then mix them up, in contrast to starting out with mixed ingredients of uncertain composition
and later trying to figure out what exacly I have been testing. But to each his own and if your
buddy thinks it's easier to use random "dirt" then of course he must do so. Heck, if he manages
to make a working cell with his local red earth and there's enough of it there, then why not. ;)
But was he even trying to make a cell? Or did you only mention his mix because it produced
a nice piece of ceramic-like material and you thought that might be of use in experiments?
Hmm yes, a quick second read seems to show that's the case... Oh well, in that case most
of my ranting here is quite useless to your friend and his plaster experiments I guess...
:)
 
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: sutra on August 01, 2008, 09:44:46 PM
Hi guys,
Thanks for the ideas for the high voltages generation...

I've made the modification to my latest cell as you can see from the picture.

I replaced the previous electrode with a piece of metallic mosquito net.

I first anneal the net an then just immerged in the molten mix.

I polarized the cell with 18 VDC for 3 hours and let it be sealed for 24.

Well the result are much better than before at this stage, (yes I'll have to see after some wheeks).

A quick comparison:

Before
0,236 V @ 0.001 mA

After:
-0.400V (polarity swapped overnight) @ 0.058 mA

Enjoy the pic

Bye
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: triffid on August 01, 2008, 11:26:39 PM
I thought the cast earth recipe would be of interest to someone here in this this thread.I had seen ceramic cones before that were used in determining kiln temps.His cast earth samples reminded me of those cones.He was not trying to make a stone battery at the time.Also I have recently sent him some info from this thread.So he is at least aware his cast earth may be of interest here and elsewhere.Triffid
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: triffid on August 01, 2008, 11:32:49 PM
I forgot to mention that I went through a gold panning stage in my life and came up with all kinds of black sand.I think most rivers would yield up some.The black sand can be swept over with a magnet to seperate  the magnetic black sand from the nonmagnetic.Triffid
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: triffid on August 01, 2008, 11:39:04 PM
I want to add that I would not be upset if someone here could make a thermal cell that makes electricity from the heat that builds up in a car on a hot day.That could be considered "free energy".
Which is just wasted now.Triffid
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: triffid on August 01, 2008, 11:45:09 PM
I am wondering just how strong an electret sand can be?What kind of volts can it hold?triffid
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: sutra on August 07, 2008, 09:16:51 PM
Hi there,

an update about cell output after 24 hrs shorted:

- 0.465 V
-0.009 mA

Cheers
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: sutra on August 08, 2008, 12:01:07 PM
Hi guys,
have a look to the following video....it could make some sense...

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/915226/free_electricity_from_thin_air/

I tried to realize the circuit with normal diodes but there is no output. If any of you get something out from it, please tell me..

Ciao
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: triffid on August 12, 2008, 08:06:21 PM
I watched the video.I hope its for real.I spent two months on one experiment from u-tube."The Amazing scottish antigravity machine" was what it was called.When I put it all together it did not work.Whenever you place a cellphone inside a glass jar, wrap aluminun foil all around the outside ,and the cell phone is turned on.It acts as a faraday cage and cuts the signal of the cellphone so the network doesn't see the phone as being on and dumps your attempts to call that cellphone to the voicemail.So my cellphone inside the drinking glass with foil wrapped all around it would never ring.
But on the u-tube video you can hear the phone ringing.And then the whole thing floats in the air.I felt like that was a fraud.Glad I did the experiment.Taught me that not everything on u-tube is real.Triffid
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: AbbaRue on August 12, 2008, 09:01:22 PM
@Sutra
That circuit should work as he says.
It is very similar to the AV plug used in the cold electricity circuit.

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3457.2240.html

You have to use High Speed switching diodes. Regular power diodes won't work.
Try some of those really cheap switching diodes you get from Radio Shack that come 50 in a pack.
The ones that have a clear casing on them.
Or use 1N4148 signal diodes.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on August 13, 2008, 11:08:09 AM
Shouldn't this be in the "electricity from air" topic somewhere? ;)
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Drannom on August 13, 2008, 11:40:57 AM
Shouldn't this be in the "electricity from air" topic somewhere? ;)


Koen1, may be from there, where all your inputs were just like air !

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5172.msg119648.html#msg119648

many topics are missleaded, do not believe what somebody say, we are not alone here, illuminati take care of this forum with many agents

here i have been attacked like never before, just by sending a PM to Koen1 !

take care of you and reconsider everythings

i am leaving this thread again to study electrinium.pdf
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on August 13, 2008, 01:57:25 PM
Koen1, may be from there, where all your inputs were just like air !
Well although I guess that is one of your best poems ever,
it makes no sense. Like many of your statements.

Quote
many topics are missleaded,
What's that? Miss Unleaded's sister or something? :D just kidding ;)
Quote
do not believe what somebody say,
Alright, I'll take your advice and not believe what you say. Lol ;)
Quote
we are not alone here, illuminati take care of this forum with many agents
Ah, yes, of course. It's the illuminati that run the world, and we're just hanging on
for the ride and allowing ourselves to be deceived, and whenever we can't make
things stick then obviously the conclusion must be that it's the Illuminati's fault,
and never a flaw on our own part...
I didn't see it that clearly before, but those extremely convincing arguments of yours
cannot be wrong.
LOL ;D

Quote
here i have been attacked like never before, just by sending a PM to Koen1 !
Well if that was really the worst "attack" ever, then you must not have experienced much in your
life so far...
And you also convieniently forgot to mention that I did not start out "attacking" you,
but rather that you started accusing me of spreading false information when that was not
at all the case, and you wanted to speak in secret because you claimed others
wanted to keep the truth hidden or some crap like that...
It is obvious that you cannot claim some moral high ground and accuse others of being
secretive and hiding things, while at the same time you try to keep things secret yourself.
That is like saying "I hate people who hate." It is internally contradictory.
And even worse, you accused me of disinformation not because you had any good reasons
for it, but because you simply did not like what I said. You never showed to have actually
studied any of the related scientific fields, you chose to adopt a hypothesis that was never
proven and of which zero prototypes have been developed in the past couple of decades,
and when I told you in a very elaborate and sincire response why I think that hypothesis
is flawed, you never tried to prove me wrong on any of the actual empirically determined
scientific points, but instead you started shouting "you're a disinfo illuminati reptilian agent"
and more such nonsense.

That is pure false logic and if you don't see that then you're even farther from reality than
I thought you were.
Stick with your pyramid power nonsense if you must...
But consider this: pyramids and Illuminati are like cows and grass, the one is never far from
the other. And since you have a very clear and steady fascination with pyramids as well
as Illuminati, the most simple conclusion is that you are yourself an Illuminati with a
pyramid fixation!
Bet you never realised that, did you? And I bet you're going to throw a fit now in reply, right?

Quote
i am leaving this thread again to study electrinium.pdf
By all means do, but don't forget to study some actual materials science too...
Study the actual scientific properties of elements and their atoms, not some
fantasy "frequency as mass/diameter ratio" that nobody uses. Study crystal
structures of conductors and semiconductors and especially their internal
electron exchange. Study that, and you shall see it does not appear to accord
with the Electrinium hypothesis at all. Perhaps then you'll finally understand
what I tried to explain to you long ago.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 14, 2008, 05:45:16 AM
Ah, I get it.  Koen 1 is a member of the illuminati.  This makes total sense now.  (Ha ha!!)  This explains all of his hard work, experimentation as well as his help to other experimenters.  This is just exactly what they would do, just to fool us.
Actually, truth be told, I have reason to believe Koen1 is actually Hutchison posting under a false identity just to through us off the correct course.  I would post more but my UFO is here to pick me up again to perform more medical experiments on me. If only they had a dental plan.

Bill
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: nightlife on August 14, 2008, 08:16:37 AM
Has anyone did any research on this electrinium battery?

 I read the PDF file that Summera was said to have wrote. Some things made sense where as others were to far fetched to believe. It would be interesting to research this more.

 Does anyone have any info on Tesla?s work in regards to this?
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on August 14, 2008, 08:27:25 AM
g'day all,

Damn, now I'm really confused.  ;D ;D ;D
Anyway Bill can you give me a ride in your ufo, or am I talking to Tesla ? ;D
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: triffid on August 15, 2008, 02:33:09 AM
Thanks,Sutra and Abba Rue for that circuit design,if you read the comments (98 of them)posted to that video,not everyone was able to make it work.Some said it did and one said to make it to 40 volts with bigger capacitors(one farad 48 volt).I believe that this circuit can use the output of any stone battery,increase it to useable levels.
So it is useful to this thread.Happy experimenting All!!! Be Careful!!!Triffid
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: triffid on August 15, 2008, 02:46:02 AM
Sutra,I have been impressed with your efforts here to make a stone battery.I wish more people were like you.Experiment more.Practice lab safety always in the kitchen and the garage.Wear safety glasses.Triffid
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Drannom on August 15, 2008, 03:07:59 AM
Koen1 i am doing all this to promote electrinium.pdf, now i have reach that goal, and like DClarkson, Jeanna, nightlife, Topgun, many more members will read this text, you were just in my way, see you objectivly in others topics !

Central Sun give power to all blacks hole shining super light, this super light is transform by our sun, our sun is not nuclear power, then any atoms and molecules get power from super light each second, we are in an ocean of energy, and electinium explain in a simple way all of this

i am not enough good to talk the details , but i am better in understanding than writing

sorry for the mess, this topic should aslo consider military diode, Hutchison began with them ! good clue !

bye
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on August 15, 2008, 02:10:59 PM
Koen1 i am doing all this to promote electrinium.pdf,
Great. But instead of spreading the Electrinium gospel that you have decided to believe in blindly,
why do you not try to actually understand material physics?
And why do you feel you must fill this Crystal Cell thread with that Electrinium stuff?
We, the people in this thread who actually do experiments and try to build crystal cells,
have actually studied the Electrinium hypothesis and found it not in accordance
with just about everything known about electrodynamics in solids, or at least not in the
manner described in that pdf. If there were any evidence of it being a valid theory, then
that evidence is well hidden for we have not been able to dig it up. If you do have any
evidence that there is validity to the hypothesis, then please give us weblinks to that.
But I know you don't have that kind of evidence, you just "want to believe" very much.

You may of course "spread the Electrinium gospel" if you like, but please stop trying
to force it on people in this thread, ok? We have read it, and it does not fit into our approach.
For that matter, I still seriously doubt there is any validity to it at all, and not in the least
because the author of that pdf claims to be very close to producing a prototype in the
last parts of the text, yet in the past 20+ years no such Electrinium battery has surfaced
ever, so I get the strong feeling he made it and it didn't work, and he dropped the entire thing.

If you have any good reason to believe it is valid, such as tangiable evidence of the authors
prototype in working order, then of course I will have to admit I was wrong. But so far
there is no indication whatsoever of such a prototype ever having been built nor of it functioning
like the pdf states. If you just want to repeat "read Electrinium.pdf!" over and over again,
please start an Electrinium thread of your own so you don't mess up our crystal cell thread
which, just in case you hadn't noticed it, is not about Electrinium batteries but about Crystal Cells.

Quote
now i have reach that goal, and like DClarkson, Jeanna, nightlife, Topgun, many more members will read this text, you were just in my way, see you objectivly in others topics !
Dude, that doesn't make sense. I was "just in your way"? In your way of spreading a pdf that has been floating around in OU circles for over 20 years?
And you decided you were going to play the Electrinium prophet just because you felt like it? And you decided messing up someones thread over it,
without being able to counter the arguments you provoked, and following it up by accusing that person of being an illuminati reptilian disinfo agent,
was the correct and civil thing to do?
Jeez man, do you really think people aren't smart enough to dig that pdf up themselves? Do you really think they need you to preach it to them?
Well do what you must, but keep it out of our Crystal cell thread please?

Quote
Central Sun give power to all blacks hole shining super light, this super light is transform by our sun, our sun is not nuclear power, then any atoms and molecules get power from super light each second, we are in an ocean of energy, and electinium explain in a simple way all of this
And that is exactly what I meant with "new age quasi-religious pseudo-scientific mumbojumbo". Central suns, black holes shining super light, sure. Have another mushroom won't you? ;) (kidding)
You see, although that sounds like an interesting alternative theory, it is not really supported by any evidence. And it doesn't "connect with" established scientific theories either... so we can't "link in" to for example electrodynamics with it, or at least not in this form, perhaps if some renormalisation were applied...

Quote
i am not enough good to talk the details , but i am better in understanding than writing
hmm well that may be an explanation as to why your insistant posts on Electrinium don't seem to make much sense at all...
... but it could also be that you believe you understand it better than you really do. And that could also be the reason why
you can't explain it well. ... ?
I think things are not so simple as mere harmonic resonance of atoms with some mysterious AC field emitted by our sun,
I believe quantum electrodynamics and material physics on the level of atomic crystal lettices and their electron exchange patterns
are more along the path to follow, and if you study those subjects you will quickly find it is more complex than such a simplified
model as the one used in the Electrinium theory. And it just so happens that science agrees with this, and not with the Electrinium hypothesis.

You know what, if you understand the Electrinium hypothesis so well, and you are so convinced it works, then why don't you build
a simple Electrinium battery and show me how wrong I was?
Build one, even the simple version you suggested using carbon and iron will do, as long as it produces a certain voltage at a certain amperage
and does not run out, you will have succeeded and I will admit there may be something to the electrinium theory after all.
I may even come to visit you to do some measurements and take some pictures of it, if you manage to build one and will allow me to do so.
But untill you do some hands-on work trying to build one, if you only keep shouting that you believe in the hypothesis, you are not convincing anyone.

Quote
sorry for the mess,
's alright, apology accepted ;)
Quote
this topic should aslo consider military diode, Hutchison began with them ! good clue !
We did discuss the Germanium diodes. Not too much of a clue though. Fortunately we were able to
dig up quite a bit more info than the vague remarks like that one.
We know quite a bit about Hutchisons cells now. And about the related research.
But Hutchison is too busy with his new friend Paris Hilton at the moment to do much research,
and he never was very communicative...
And he seems totally unwilling to share his info with other inventors out of fear of them "stealing" the invention.
Not that he's doing anything with them, but he still refuses to tell people how to make them...
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: nightlife on August 15, 2008, 05:14:31 PM
Quote
I still seriously doubt there is any validity to it at all, and not in the least
because the author of that pdf claims to be very close to producing a prototype in the
last parts of the text, yet in the past 20+ years no such Electrinium battery has surfaced
ever, so I get the strong feeling he made it and it didn't work, and he dropped the entire thing.

Koen1, I could have swore that the author had been found dead at a airport long term parking area?

 We also do have some who claim to have such a battery but they have not reveled what they are made of.

 John does say that his are made of mixtures of intricate crystals.

 I believe MPI claims to have a battery that never needs to charged.

 Based on your comment stating your doubt, you must not have checked the "validity" for yourself. I think it is worth checking out unless we can find a replicable person to say they have and found it not to be as it is said to be.
 This information is not off topic and it does pertain to this thread as well as others like it. It is said to be a crystal that holds and or attracts electricity and that can be used for what we are looking for provided it is what has been stated to be.

 I personally am going to continue to research this crystal and possibly experiment with it.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: jeff0516161 on August 15, 2008, 07:59:10 PM
I've read every post since page 1. Great work guys, however there is soooo much more that you and H are missing....
Yes, this works.....
http://www.geocities.com/athens/olympus/6581/egypt.html
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: triffid on August 17, 2008, 04:03:28 AM
I have heard that the ark of the covenant was based on an earlier egyptian design
that Moses was privy to as a member of the ruling class.I have heard too that the ark is a capacitor.Since sand is a dielectric Maybe "raiders of the lost ark" was not totally lying to us when they showed us dust (or sand) in the bottom of the ark?Just thinking out loud here.I still have not found a dielectric value for sand,but water has a value about 80.I would think sand have a value higher than that (maybe about 300).
triffid
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: triffid on August 17, 2008, 04:35:54 AM
Sorry,I really don't know what the dielectric value of sand is but the dielectric constant of Strontiun Titanate is 310. I figure that something similar exists somewhere.triffid
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: triffid on August 17, 2008, 01:32:09 PM
I looked up some dielectric values.That chemical I mentioned is a ceramic and some of those can reach 30,000. Sand might be around 4.2.Still better than glass(1.0).Add water and the value shoots up to 80.0.So instead of just sand holding 2000 volts.Maybe sand and water can hold over 100,000 volts?Just thinking out loud here.triffid
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Drannom on August 18, 2008, 12:09:43 PM
That is what i was talking about, 

black hole and super light!

there is other links on that,  i found only that one

 http://blog.hasslberger.com/2007/11/milewski_describes_magnetoelec.html

Quote
......

SuperLight is described as the opposite and complementary phase to ordinary light. While electromagnetic radiation - visible light is part of its spectrum - has a strong electric and a weaker magnetic component, in magneto-electric radiation the magnetic component outweighs its electric counterpart.
Milewski proposes a model which sees magneto-electric radiation as the source of gravity, emitted by black holes and traveling at the square of the speed of light. SuperLight has a correspondingly shorter wavelength and higher energy content than ordinary light and is the source of the energy of life, which makes for its connection to the area of healing through increased coherence in organisms.
While physics has tended to exclude life and consciousness from its equations we now have - with Milewski's model - a very real possibility to reach unification with meta-physics, generally considered the purview of faith and religion.

.....

Now, I believe a similar event occurs in the extremely dense and hot matter found in black holes. It is theorized that black holes contain magnetic monopoles and when these extremely dense, extremely small, extremely energetic magnetic monopoles release energy by lowering their orbit they radiate magneto?electric radiation, our SuperLight. So black holes really are not so black. They are radiant beings of SuperLight. Of course SuperLight escapes the strong gravitation forces of the black holes because its velocity is the square of the velocity of light and it therefore, can easily escape.
The current scientific thinking is that in the center of every galaxy in the universe is a black hole. There are billions and billions of galaxies all around us, and they all are producing SuperLight. We are literally bathed in a three-dimensional dynamic energy field, or an "Ether" of SuperLight ? a Dynamic Ether.

.....

and much more at the link


i think that the Central Sun give power to all black holes !

 to read electrinium go there, (click right to download)

 http://www.nuenergy.org/pdf/electrinium.pdf

it explain how Central Sun give power to all atoms and molecules

and when i was talking about military diode (i am still repeating) i didn't mean germanium diode, it's a secret military diode that we can find only i some military devices, thoses diodes are like mini electrinium, Hutchison found them at the beginning, not in germanium not in silicium, in something else

if someone have old military device just test a military diode to see if there is some current going out from them

i do not answer to Koen1, it will be another lost of time, just read electrinium and you will see why


Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on August 18, 2008, 06:34:50 PM
Koen1, I could have swore that the author had been found dead at a airport long term parking area?
Well, yes you could have sworn that, but you would have been awfully wrong.
The author of the Electrinium pdf was Arthur P. Summera, the guy found dead at an airport parking lot
was Arie M. De Geus of Dutch origin. Two very different people.

Please get your facts straight before you try to be a smart ass.

Quote
We also do have some who claim to have such a battery but they have not reveled what they are made of.
Yes, we have such claims. Like the claims from John Hutchison.
And?

Quote
John does say that his are made of mixtures of intricate crystals.
Yet refuses to elucidate on the
ratios, exact quantities, and even on exact compositions of "ingredients"...

Quote
I believe MPI claims to have a battery that never needs to charged.
Well as far as I know Magnetic Power Inc claim to have several OU devices, but I have not heard
them claim a crystal cell or unlimited battery...

Quote
Based on your comment stating your doubt, you must not have checked the "validity" for yourself.
Sigh. Yes I have and have found it to be a bunch of bull.
Quote
I think it is worth checking out unless we can find a replicable person to say they have and found it not to be as it is said to be.
You want to find a "replicable person"?
A person you can replicate? ;) kidding
Dude, you really don't bneed to find a clone before you can figure out that the Electrinium paper contains a huge amount of nonsense.
Really. Just think about it. Summera says atoms get smaller as their number of protons and electrons as well as their mass increase. That is plain incorrect!
He says there is somehow a "Central Sun" that emits radiation "at right angles to" the radiation coming from our "Solar Sun", and that these two radiations
intersect at 90 degrees where the earth is, resulting in both the earth magnetic field and gravity. If you just think about it for a minute, that can't be correct,
because that would mean that on the shadow side of the earth we shouldn't have gravity or at least we should have a reversed magnetic field. And that is assuming
that an AC field and a DC field at 90 degrees to eachother do indeed produce gravity and magnetism as Summera claims, and that is another one of those things that
has never been shown to work. As far as we know and have tested, a DC field intersected at 90 degrees by an AC field, does not generate magnetism nor
gravity in that specific region of space at all.
Then there's the different mistakes he makes throughout the paper, talking about "AC current" being emitted by a Central Sun... come on, even assuming there would be
"AC current" flying through space, it is impossible to make that produce a continiuous force like gravity all over the surface of our planet, since the irradiation only comes from one
point in space and can thus never generate a spherical and radially oriented force field, nor can the moving earth always be in the same intersection spot.
Furthermore, the guy acts as if he's the big wizard who knows it all, but when push comes to shove all of a sudden he does not know whether the Silver-Iron compound
he himself brought up actually consists of two, or rather of three Iron atoms per Silvr atom. Now that is very odd for someone who has spent the entire preceding chapter
hammering on the importance of the mass/volume ratios of the atoms and the "harmonic life vibration"; at least the example he presents should be a clear cut example
where he should have perfect knowledge of what the example atoms should do. Instead, all of a sudden he does not know the atomic ratios, which as he himself
pointed out are crucial for this to work at all. So the big specialist who repeats over and over again that we need to follow the "new universal rule" of atomic mass/volume
ratios and their harmonic combinations, all of a sudden doesn't know how to apply that rule or how to properly calculate those ratios anymore?
Now that's suspicious...
And when that gets followed up by a piece of text in which he says, on the same page even, that 1) Silver-Iron compound produces 2 volts and then the next paragraph
that 2) Silver-Iron compound yields 7 volts per molecule, it is obvious he is stating conflicting information.
Either the bimetallic potential difference between two metals produces 2 volts, or it produces 7. Which is it? Is our great electrinium specialist now all of a sudden
also confused with respect to simple bimetallic voltages?

So he messes up simple chemical compounds and simple bimetallic voltages,
and that in your opinion sounds like a solid and valid theory?

Quote
This information is not off topic and it does pertain to this thread as well as others like it.
This information is off topic: it is about the Electrinium religion, not about the Crystal Cell reseaerch discussed in this thread.
I concede that it may be related to certain points, but it is too wrong on too many points to be considered as a serious part of the
Cell research we have been doing. It doesn't even connect with Hutchisons ideas of the functioning principles of a Crystal Cell, nor
does it accord with my ideas on them.
Like I said to Drannom, if you must then by all means make a seperate Electrinium thread.
But please don't pollute our nice Crystal Cell thread with such shaky hypotheses as the Electrinium one...

Quote
It is said to be a crystal that holds and or attracts electricity and that can be used for what we are looking for provided it is what has been stated to be.
Sigh. And it is clearly not what it was stated to be, as critical analysis of the paper will show tons of flaws in reasoning and also many factoids claimed to be true that
are not. Jus read it and use you brain. Atoms are very much not like our solar system, in contrast to what Summera believes.
Really, why is it so hard to just read the pdf and think it over, and conclude that a person who has so much trouble differentiating between an atom and a solar system,
who does not see that a perpetually orbiting earth can never continuously receive irradiation by two seperate radiation sources perpendicular to eachother in any form
that is other than a nonhomogenous and variations form? Ergo that if that were so, we would have to experience regular increases and decreases of gravity and magnetism
depending on what region on earth you're on. Well, we don't.
So forget about that Central Sun nonsense. Forget about the claimed "new universal laws", it's al bull. What then are we left with?
Atoms and Electrinium. Ok, fine. But as soon as he starts demonstrating his lack of knowledge about those as well, by plainly stating how he doesn't know exactly
how many atoms the Silver-Iron molcule consists of, and by later stating different voltages for it, then that too loses most of its credibility.


Quote
I personally am going to continue to research this crystal and possibly experiment with it.
:) Really? Great!
So you're going to build a two-stage kiln able to reach 1400+ degrees celcius, with a pedestal able
to move a melting crucible from the bottom to the top stage, then you're going to pour in the mix of
molten silver-iron and borozon at very high temperature, and then slowly lift the crucible up untill the surface
becomes cold enough to crystallise, then drop a silicium seed crystal in the molten silicium and having
the entire crucible slowly cool down, then you're going to heat the thing up to about 1200 degrees or so
again so it becomes soft, then apply a high voltage DC for hours on end, then cooll it, then cut it,
and then you'll have a version ready for testing... ??

Well I'm all for that. If it does turn out to work, then I will officially retract my earlier statements about
the Electrinium papers and mr. Summera.
But first you'll have to make one. 
Do you have the facilities for that?

@Drannom: this is your last warning! Please post your "Central Sun" stuff in your own thread! It has nothing to do with our Crystal Cell thread,
so please stop polluting our thread! If you keep it up, I will ask Stefan to whipe your posts or at least move them into a seperate thread
where you can post about your Electrinium Central Galactic Sun religion all you like without stuffing up our thread with it!
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: jeff0516161 on August 18, 2008, 06:55:59 PM
I think his posts should belong in here, for me it makes sense to keep Dranoms findings in this thread.
@Koen you seem to have a very large EGO.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: dcarlson on August 18, 2008, 07:21:03 PM
@Jeff...I strongly disagree with you....the Electrinium garbage belows somewhere else.  Sure seems like you and Drannom should start your own thread.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 18, 2008, 07:27:07 PM
I agree with dcarlson and Koen1.

Bill
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Drannom on August 18, 2008, 08:08:26 PM
The Permanent Electrinium Battery
http://youtube.com/watch?v=sNZNoNPI3hc&feature=related
http://www.nuenergy.org/pdf/electrinium.pdf

i agree that Dcarlson don't like electrinium, he was the first bringning it up here, and it was wonderful for me

i know much more about Central Sun, my link above on Super-Light is not bad at all, it is not a religion , it is scientific theory ! i have perform many research in my own language, by reading electrinium everything correlate with my previous research

every radiant device radiate somehow Central Sun, understanding it make it easy to create devices, any devices

if you take a long chain of caps in sery, if you put current to the both ends the caps in the middle will charge ! so electricity is much more than electron, it's an unbalance in Central Sun harmony, electricity do the balance in the eather

all crystals shine more super light thant all ordinary structure, crystals are OU !

 :D

 
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: jeff0516161 on August 18, 2008, 09:22:27 PM
@Drannom, you are right on about crystal energy, you are on the right track.

Unfortunately, it seems everyone else on this thread does not want to entertain any possibilities of super light energy as a source of power. Words like religion are used when somebody can't comprehend something. Science is full of closed minded skeptics- mostly originated from education brainwashing. This is why I pay attention to Hutch- he was never exposed to this.

I'll respect others that have requested not to discuss any of these theories within this thread again.

Good luck with your research.

Mojon

Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Drannom on August 19, 2008, 12:58:21 AM
I've read every post since page 1. Great work guys, however there is soooo much more that you and H are missing....
Yes, this works.....
http://www.geocities.com/athens/olympus/6581/egypt.html


i have find this in your link, look like electrinium theories

Quote
One possibility is that, in regards to the inclusion of various iron compounds, that there is some principle which we are almost aware of, or have to stretch just a little to grasp, that benefits from doing so. I am tempted to say that such a device may be "like a cross between self-nucleating wire and Paul Brown?s 'Nucell Battery', but this may be a mere stab in total darkness. Still, that the battery might incorporate cobalt and iron and utilize some differential between the atomic weights, or apply them as something like a spectral scalar diode, is not that outlandish either.


Quote
Hence, the "missing principle" of such a wireless battery may be the, if any, "missing principle" of the magick mirrors <chronos10.html> made of marcasite, pyrite and other "near-ferromagnetics". The word "potential" seems to ring clearly, it is almost as if such a device might somehow convert the physical potential of a near ferric to be the magnetic material that it is so very close to, and convert that potential into electrical potential, if the technology does not head off in the direction of Tom Bearden?s assertions and circumvent a science- our modern science- based on the possibly erroneous notions of "potentials" altogether

so it seems that you are right, it had worked !

those working on crystal battery must know that the energy must come somewhere, if electricity can flow from static compound then Central Sun is a theory to explain it
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: jeff0516161 on August 19, 2008, 02:43:43 AM
Thank-you Drannom. Again, you are right on.

I'm not here to prove anything to anyone, but to only help by pointing people in the direction where they need to be.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 19, 2008, 04:12:36 AM
Geeze, what part of "start a new topic" don't you guys understand?  It was asked very politely,
then demanded and....still you don't seem to get it?  But yet you understand everything about the sun's
energy and can educate us all on your religion?  I don't think so.  If you can't understand a simple request, then I don't think you can understand much of anything else.

Bill
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on August 19, 2008, 04:20:05 AM
G'day all,

Guys guys guys, I'm getting a bit tired of all this theoretical crap that seems to be thrown around in here lately.
@ jeff0516161 and Drannom, all very well swearing allegance to electrinium , central suns and superlight but isn't
it about time you showed us something tangible . Take a good look at the photo, everything in it is a crystal battery.
Most have steady voltages and 2 of them actually do work. All these were made between January and july.
Please be mindful that when pushing your theories that you are talking to a group here that rolls up their sleeves and
gets their hands dirty and presents their devices, formulas and methods for all to analyze. I refere specifically to Koen, jeanna, Sutra, Bill and myself. Apologies to those contributors I may have missed.

I would like to see your working devices , formulas and materials and how they factually relate the theories and beliefs
you have. I will be the first to incorporate any varifiable improvements, into my cells, that may result from the application
of your theories.
Lets see your devices.

Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: jeff0516161 on August 19, 2008, 05:14:48 AM
I just want to say that I've never mentioned electrinium once. Yes, I pointed to the theory, however let me STRESS the use of the word.. "point".
I was trying to "point" you all to "something" you all should pay attention to.

I'm not here to show pics, videos or anything. Even if I did, it would be surely disregarded by you anyways. Like I said, I'm not here to prove anything.

The last thing I would like to say....
We all knew Tesla created wireless power transmission through radio. You all are trying to create a crystal battery and obviously seeing "some" results...where do you really think this energy originates from? That itself is what you need to focus on. Your battery you create, if successful, will not actually be a "battery".

I forget who on this thread said they were going to urinate in their mix.... I don't know why or how you came up w/ that idea, but actually was the smartest thing I've read here.



Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on August 19, 2008, 06:01:01 AM
G'day all

@jeff0516161

As far as the electrinium theory goes, it has been read and re-read a dozen times. Logically it doesn't add up, period.
As for the urine, well I have to take the blame for that one.
I am not dissagreeing with you when it come to the energies or their origin with regard to the crystal battery or crystal converter as it is sometimes known. We all know it converts something.
We also know that there is a connection between the works of Tesla, Stubblefield and Antonio Meucci all of which can be applied to a crystal battery/converter.

Granted a true converter is not a battery but to all intents and purposes it will still be regarded as one because that is what these things are being designed to replace.

Now whether the primary energy comes from a central sun ( in my view, doubtful) or cosmic rays or orgone or ZPE itself
is really not important. Does a Samoan fisherman ponder the production process of his fishing line? No, just so long as it catches fish. And he has a pretty good idea of what he wants to catch.

Also anything you do contribute to this thread will be looked at and evaluated.  You will also be given the courtesy  of a reply. We do not blindly disregard anything.

Kind regards

Ian


Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: nightlife on August 19, 2008, 06:48:33 AM
Hi Ian, that is a nice collection you have there. Does any of them have Tourmaline in them and or have you tested any Tourmaline crystals to see if they indeed do contain electricity?

 It is said that a small pieces were found to hold 0.05 volts of electricity and I still have not been able to get my hands on a piece to verify that.

 It was also said that it never looses that electricity unless it is heated to 1000 degrees or higher.

 I stated another thread about it but I have not received any reply?s.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 19, 2008, 07:02:20 AM
Nightlife:

Back in my old geology major study days I learned that tourmaline will generate electricity when heated.  So, I guess
it is not generating it, only converting heat to electricity.  Kind of like the pizo effect which converts compression energy into electricity.
Years later, one thing we found out (by accident, of course) when machining large pizo disks in our ceramic machine shop, we used to hold them down using a precision wax which was heated and then bonded to precise ground steel machining plates.  This was fine.....until....we found that heating the pizo material built up a huge (like 13,000 volts or more) charge in the material.  IF discharged on the hotplate, which really hurt, and then allowed to cool, we found out (guess how?) that it built up a similar charge when cool IF discharged when hot.  The temperatures used were only about 180 F.  This reminded me of what I learned about tourmaline.  Pizo was not supposed to do this, but it did....trust me.  I had an arc jump about 5" from the hotplate to my upper thigh while heating.  And then, once cooled and discharged (or so I thought) I got zapped again when handling.  If pizo shares this ability with tourmaline, I wonder if tourmaline will create electricity when compressed like pizo?  Never tried it. Electricity is all around us.

Bill
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: AbbaRue on August 19, 2008, 07:19:14 AM
I read somewhere a while back that the amount of energy bombarding our planet from space
could light 200,000  100W light bulbs for every man woman and child on our planet. 
So far the only real tried and tested device we have to tap into some of that energy is the solar cell.
We know that piezoelectric devices convert vibration into electricity (record player needles and BBQ lighters).

One theory I have pondered ever since first watching John Hutchison's battery at work:
If a piezoelectric crystal was made the proper size and connected right it could vibrate from extremely high frequencies.
Instead of vibrating from sound waves or groves in a record.
What it would need is some form of antenna to collect the vibrations and transfer them to the crystals. 
Many different sized crystals could be combined to collect a large section of the spectrum, 

My theory is that this is how the Hutchison crystal cell really works. 
The metallic components act as antennas to vibrate the crystals and as wires to convey the energy to the outside world.
Di-electric components act as capacitors to form oscillations and filter out the DC from the AC.
So if we contemplate these possibilities when constructing our cells, and move away from galvanic concepts we may get a working model.

John mentioned building a cell from Barium Titanate alone, has anyone ordered some and tried building one.
Barium Titanate is much cheaper to buy then Pure Germanium. 
I seen a company in the USA that sells it.  Reade Advanced Materials.
John said the unit he built gave him a 1000V shock when he picked it up wrongly.
I would try to order some myself but I don't know how easy it would be to get it across the border into Canada.
Anyway this may be a place to start.  Barium Titanate is a very good piezoelectric material.
Also a very good Di-electric, it is the main ingredient in the new Super Capacitor they plan on using to run electric cars.

Just though I would post this so others may know were I'm coming from when I say I believe the crystal battery is a true science.

Another thought, even as our earth circles the sun we undergo small changes in gravitational force, which could vibrate crystals too.
I believe this is why T.T. Brown found that very dense materials like granite and basalt produced electricity. (Petroelectric effect)
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: nightlife on August 19, 2008, 08:07:57 AM
Thank you Bill for that info.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: nightlife on August 19, 2008, 09:36:13 AM
Koen1, I just read your reply and I am sorry for not seeing it before.

 First of all, I was not being a smart ass nor was I claiming anything to be what was stated.

 This topic is about Johns crystal cells and Tourmaline is a crystal and therefore it can and should be mentioned if it can help us in anyway.

Around 1986, it was found in a research station in Japan that, even though tourmaline was broken down in smaller pieces, a positive and a negative electrode existed on both end of the crystal, and the electrodes never disappeared unless tourmaline was boiled near 1000?C.
In addition, when the positive and the negative electrodes of a tourmaline crystal were connected to each other, it was proven to show low electricity of 0.06mA.

http://www.ionizers.org/tourmaline.html

 That is just one of a few sites I found that mentioned what I have posted.
 
 I will ask this once and only once of you and that is to please respect what ever I post because I respect all. If you ever feel the need to personally attack me, please do that in person because I seem to deal with BS better when face to face.

 I do not know what your deal is with the other member you seem to have a beef with but please note that all I did is found something in a post that they posted that caught my attention and then I did some research and posted what I found out. It may be right and it may be wrong and that is why I asked the questions I have. Bill answered my question and did so in a more respectful way then you did.
 
 As far as energy is concerned, I am still sticking with my thoughts of it just being vibrations that create new vibrations when they come in to contact with another vibration. Certain vibrations will release others when they are subjected to the same, like subjecting a solid object with a vibration that the solid object was formed from. Some call it the resonant frequency. I call it a vibration which is all a frequency is. Every thing is based on vibrations. Sound, smell, sight and touch are all products of vibrations. The same can be said about heat, electricity and wind. There is no such thing as direct and everything is based on pulses and pulses are nothing more the vibrations. The creator of the first vibrations is unknown and most call the creator God. It is not the sun or black wholes or even the solar system its self because they all are products of vibrations.
 That is my take but I do think that certain crystals may be used to attract and hold vibrations that we can then utilize for a power source unless of course the crystals own vibrancy is what can be used.

 My name is Tom or nightlife, not dude or any other name. Please keep what I have said in mind next time you reply to one of my off the wall postings.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: nightlife on August 19, 2008, 09:51:40 AM
Bill, I did find this which you may be interested in becuase it mentions how it gets charged from being placed under pressure.

Scientists too are interested in it because of its astonishing physical qualities, for tourmalines can become electrically charged when they are heated and then allowed to cool. Then, they have a positive charge at one end and a negative one at the other. This is known as 'pyro-electricity', derived from the Greek word 'pyr', meaning fire. The gemstone also becomes charged under pressure, the polarity subsequently changing when the pressure is taken off. When the charge changes the tourmaline begins to oscillate, similar to a rock crystal but much more pronouncedly. The Dutch, who were the first to bring the tourmaline to Europe, were familiar with this effect a long time before it was able to be provided with a scientific explanation. They used a heated tourmaline to draw up the ash from their meerschaum pipes, and called the gemstone with the amazing powers an 'aschentrekker'.

http://www.gemstone.org/gem-by-gem/english/tourmaline.html
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Phil7218 on August 19, 2008, 11:50:22 AM
@All, what about  Marcus Reid's Crystall Battery. It's said that he uses Na2SiO3 (Sodium meta silicate) and Aluminium as outer electrode. http://www.rexresearch.com/reid/reid.htm (http://www.rexresearch.com/reid/reid.htm) 2nd post.
Na2SiO3 and Aluminium together with some water reacts to a zeolithe. For sure some of you knew that before. But what is interesting is that Viktor Schauberger used different types of silicates in his machines as catalysts. For instance his Schauberger cement which he used in his klimator, was made of waterglas, aluminiumpowder and silica gel, what comes out is a zeolith. In his Heimkraftwerk he used different types of silicate solutions or suspensions like waterglas. All of Schaubergers energy machines wouldn't work without catalysts.

I think that also the geometry of the crystals are important not only properties like piezoelectricity. Maybe things like sacred geometry. I found an interesting video about a russian water researcher who made geometric patterns wich, put in water, give a small current http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AZurh99KY4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AZurh99KY4)  at 5:00

So let's suppose these patterns are crystal structures, just many times smaller ,much more complex and a lot more than 2, these should produce some usable amount of electricity.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Drannom on August 19, 2008, 11:51:13 AM
Koen1 said

Quote
Well, yes you could have sworn that, but you would have been awfully wrong.
The author of the Electrinium pdf was Arthur P. Summera, the guy found dead at an airport parking lot
was Arie M. De Geus of Dutch origin. Two very different people

Koen1 forgot to tell you that De Geus had create a real electrinium, or some thing like that, it was a kind of electrinium with low ampere, it was very easy to do and the NWO killed him the day before he planned to go further with his discovery, just before take his plane at the airport
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on August 19, 2008, 02:39:59 PM
Koen1 forgot to tell you that De Geus had create a real electrinium, or some thing like that, it was a kind of electrinium with low ampere, it was very easy to do and the NWO killed him the day before he planned to go further with his discovery, just before take his plane at the airport

Ok this is the LAST thing I'm going to say about Electrinium crap:
Arie M. deGeus did NOT make an Electrinium battery! What he made was a thin wafer of a material very close to
artificial Tourmaline, which like normal Tourmaline is pyroelectric and produced electrical output
when exposed to heat. He developed a method to produce these wafers relatively easily and cheaply,
and that's what the big breakthough was: now he could make tons of those heat-to-electricity chips at
very low cost, which so far nobody has been able to do.
That was mr deGeus's invention, that was what he presented to a group of investors, and that's what he was killed for.

Please stop telling lies, Drannom.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Drannom on August 19, 2008, 02:54:47 PM
Quote
or some thing like that, it was a kind of electrinium


i said that from my memory, so i was not lying at all,

in fact he did what we are looking for : OU

and nobody knows exactly what De Geus has done, it is possible that is a kind of electrinium

Koen1 i do not believe you when you say that heat is the power for De Geus, not fair to say that
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on August 19, 2008, 03:39:34 PM
i said that from my memory, so i was not lying at all,
Well maybe not, but then you were still going on about that Electrinium crap. Stop it!
Or at least stop doing it in this thread!

Quote
in fact he did what we are looking for : OU
Well that remains to be seen...

Quote
and nobody knows exactly what De Geus has done, it is possible that is a kind of electrinium
No, it is not. Because mr deGeus spent years studying Tourmaline. And that is typically known
for its pyroelectricity, and has been known as such for centuries. The Dutch East-India sailors
brought it from Ceylon and used it to electrostatically clean their pipes after heating a piece of it,
and that is quite possibly how mr deGeus knew of it, being Dutch and all...
That you don't know anything about mr deGeus doesn't mean everyone is so ignorant.
Even Bearden knew of the Tourmaline connection: http://www.cheniere.org/articles/Coincidence%20or%20Suppression%20of%20the%20Self-Powering%20Battery%202.doc

Yes, mr deGeus did develop a very efficient version of this wafer, and that did
produce output. It is unknown however, what the minimum temperature was for this to work.
I suspect, since he was heavily into artifical tourmaline research for a while, that it
needed at least room temperature to work, perhaps slightly higher.

Quote
Koen1 i do not believe you when you say that heat is the power for De Geus, not fair to say that
Well you may not believe me, but don't start whining that it's "not fair" of me to say that.
You have a tendency to deny what you don't know if someone points it out, and at the same time a tendency
to defend unproven and illogical ideas with religious zeal.
That, sir, is very strange behaviour.
Do you want us to take you seriously or do you just want to whine?
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: triffid on August 19, 2008, 03:58:59 PM
That barium titanate that AbbaRue was talking about is one of those(the titanates) ceramics that can have a high dielectric value(50-30,000). My source being the CRC of Chemistry and Physics.I can see how it might
pick up enough voltage to give a shock.Triffid
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on August 19, 2008, 05:28:58 PM
Yes. And, like I have said hundreds of times before, it is also
a pyro- and piezo-electric material. Ergo changes in temperature
and pressure result in charges on certain surfaces of the material.
It is this that makes it interesting, not so much the high dielectric constant.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: triffid on August 19, 2008, 07:41:28 PM
The way I see it then is that these titanates are what we should focus on?From another thread here at overunity.com I have found some details on how to construct a q-cell(hutchinson) that may be of interest here.Triffid
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: triffid on August 19, 2008, 07:47:08 PM
I will try to find a way to make artificial tourmaline.I once saw two papers on making opals and diamonds.It's not too far fetched that I can find out how to make tourmaline.Triffid
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: AbbaRue on August 19, 2008, 07:47:42 PM
Do you have the link to that Q-Cell?

One other point: John H. said he got the 1000V shock from the Barium Titanate Cell while taking it out of the fridge.
I wonder why he had it in the fridge in the first place?
 
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on August 20, 2008, 12:18:04 AM
G'day all,

@Nightlife:  Most of my later cells now contain between 5% and 15% tourmaline. In the picture you will the Pyrites cell powering a watch, that cell
contains 2.1g of pink tourmaline. I posted the formula for that cell but if you can't find it I'll mail it to you. Now I mostly use black tourmaline ( schorl).

@Bill:  Can you remember the type of wax you used on the machining plate.



See ya later

Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: nightlife on August 20, 2008, 03:28:49 AM
Ian, thank you for the reply and I will try to locate the formula you have posted.
 
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 20, 2008, 04:44:33 AM
@ Ian:

We used two different types of waxes for this.  The strongest was called "brown wax" and had ceramic powder mixed in.  You could only hold tolerances of +-.001" (on a good day) with this wax.  It was strong, but not accurate.  The second wax, which was marketed as "beeswax", was much thinner and had a lower melting point.  With experience, we could hold tolerances of +- .0003".  It was not as strong but melted much flatter.  I wish I still had my sources for these materials but I do not.  For really accurate work, we would make vacuum chucks that used vacuum to hold precision parts on the magnetic chucks of the grinders.  Using these, we could routinely hold +- .0001".

Jewelers use dop wax for both faceting and making cabs.  This is commercially available.  I hope this helps.  Let me know if you want more detailed info.

Bill
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on August 20, 2008, 04:59:38 AM
@ Bill

Thanks for the info. The wax mixed with ceramic powder is most interesting. ;D ;D.

Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 20, 2008, 05:01:29 AM
If memory serves, the ceramic powder was AL2O3 at about 85% purity.  It has a slightly higher thermal expansion than 99.7%.

Bill
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: triffid on August 20, 2008, 03:47:12 PM
For q-cell construction(i don't know how to make a link)check out the thread here called "common batteries are free energy sources"It's buried in a post on the second page of the thread.I don't think all the details are there but there's a lot to work with.Also there's lots of manmade tourmaline for sale on the internet.Also the real stuff too.A lot of waxes have high dielectric values.I think that the ceramics called" the titanates" might be the way to go.Triffid
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: triffid on August 20, 2008, 07:44:09 PM
Optically clear quartz crystals have a dielectric value of about 4.2.Sand has a high percentage of broken quartz in it.So thats why I thought(guessed) sand would have a dielectric value around 4.2.
Triffid
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: triffid on August 22, 2008, 08:35:31 PM
I have just spent a few minutes going the first two pages of this thread.And would like to add to the list of possible household sources for materials 1) sugar for carbonAnd 2) powdered coffee.Sugar when burned will carbonize.Powered coffee took the place of an expensive filler in a rocket fuel recipe I once ran across.So powered coffee acted as a filler/binding agent.Decaffainated  powdered coffee will
have traces of sodium hydroxide in it.Triffid
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: triffid on August 22, 2008, 08:39:02 PM
Sorry I meant powdered coffee not powered coffee but was this really a slip of the fingers on the keyboard?It's my day off.Triffid
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on August 23, 2008, 02:55:01 PM
Lol powered coffee :)
Triffid, I'm getting a little confused now;
it seemed like you were trying to figure out some
good materials from a pyro-/piezo-/ferro-electric
point of view and perhaps planning on making
a few experimetal cells with those, but now
you're looking at organic compounds that do not
have such qualities again... ?
I would say if you're only looking at them for carbon
content then wh not just go for pure cabon and add that?
Or, if you really want to incorporate organic compounds,
I'd think you'd want to look at organic conductors and
organic semiconductors?
If I need to name a few for you, say so ok?
Lol but I still like your powered coffee. ;)

I have decided to attempt replication of an actual Hutchison-style
Cell. Again. ;)
For those who haven't read all of the pages in this thread, and to be
honest there's a lot of pages now so I can't really blame you, here's
the basic "recepy", leaked straight from John:
- good conducting container and rod for use as electrodes (JH does not
give clear indications on whether or not these should be dissimilar metals
or all the same metal, although sometimes he seems to hint toward the latter)
- Rochelle Salt (a.k.a. Seignette Salt, a.k.a. Sodium-Potassium-Tartrate used as
basic binder)
- Iron Pyrites (a.k.a. "Fools Gold", a.k.a. CuFeS2 or plain FeS2 according to Wiki)
- Galena (a.k.a. Lead  Blende a.k.a. PbS)
- if you have it some Germanium (either from crushed Ge-diodes like John did,
or in powdered elemental form)
That's the basic ingredient list as John has said.
Mind you, I made a few based on this before, and I have none that actually put out power yet.
But then again, John never really said how much of these materials he uses/used,
only that he used but a little Ge...

But since I'm waiting for a reply from a materials supplier at the moment and can't really
make a new cell in my own experimental line untill I have that stuff,
I thought I might as well try to make a working Hutchison style cell again.
I have the materials so why not. :) If it fails I can always recycle most of the ingredients.

Regards! :)
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: jeff0516161 on August 23, 2008, 05:53:11 PM
Koen1,,, you forgot one ingredient!

URINE
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: sutra on August 23, 2008, 11:03:00 PM
Hi guys,
Wow, you really had a lot to talk about these days....

Meanwhile, the shape shifting master of cell building.....BE...LOL, build up another creature....

Watching for the 1000th time one of the H. videos, I came to the conclusion that the white powder he uses in the mix must be Calcium oxide (CaO).

CaO, hydrated becomes Ca(OH)2 that reacts with CO2 in the air settin up hard. It is one of the oldest way to do cement....

Well, I've been mixing  Galena, Pyrite, Sand And Rochelle salt and CaO with water and I've biuld my new cell.

I can't yet submit it to any polarizing load since the electricity hydroolizes the water in the mix generating bubbles but it is starting in setting nice and hard.

I'm planning to give it a nice electrical kick immediately after tha hardening will be complete, perhaps giving it a vibratory start-up.

I'll let you know ASAP.

Ciao Ciao
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on August 24, 2008, 06:02:17 AM
G'day all,

@jeff0516161:  What does the 0516161 mean or can I just call you jeff ? :)

Now about the urine. I've  piddled around with the stuff in some of my cells some time ago. I found that urine will give you
a strong galvanic action for a short time and then nothing more. As we are trying as best as possible to reduce any galvanic action we could not see any furthur use for it.
If however you have found that it has become a valid ingredient please let us know. Some of the wayout stuff might be just what we need, afterall I've also used aspirin and vitamin C in some cells, neither of which gave a "healthy " voltage. ;D

@ sutra and all: This may be of interest.

Yesterday I completed  the 2nd in a series Calcium Carbonate cells. The ingredients are very similar to sutra's.
Rochelle salt, sand, bulked up with CaCo3, pyrites, tourmaline and concenterated sodium silicate. Inner and outer electrodes made of Al.
Sure enough the mix hardened very well. The cell voltage was very dissapointing. Initially it was only 20mV and the cell would not take a charge.  However , as with many of my previous cells, the voltage gradually dropped, passed through 0V
and changed polarity. Then it did a strange thing that I have not seen before. Once it had reached -20mV the voltage dropped back to 0V and changed polarity again this time reaching +25mV. I have monitored this cell all night and most of the morning and it has switched polarity 5 times and I looks like it's about to do it again. Heres the kicker, it did all of this with a 270 ohm resistor across it.

Anyway please give it some thought and any ideas will be welcome.

regards Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: sutra on August 24, 2008, 01:39:46 PM
 
However , as with many of my previous cells, the voltage gradually dropped, passed through 0V
and changed polarity. Then it did a strange thing that I have not seen before. Once it had reached -20mV the voltage dropped back to 0V and changed polarity again this time reaching +25mV. I have monitored this cell all night and most of the morning and it has switched polarity 5 times and I looks like it's about to do it again. Heres the kicker, it did all of this with a 270 ohm resistor across it.


Anyway please give it some thought and any ideas will be welcome.

regards Ian
It seems that it always happen when using electrodes made of the same metal: the voltage bounces back and forth until it will eventually stabilize remaining unconsistant. Well at least this is what I can tell out of my experience...

Ciao

Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on August 24, 2008, 03:17:11 PM
Yes, it can be quite tricky to get the material you're using to polarise
permanently, indeed.
Some materials are better suited for this then others.
In my experience, slowly solidifying materials like gypsum/plaster
(which is a form of the hardening calcium compound you mentioned)
tend to need a reasonably long "drying time" before it is both solid
enough and has lost enough of its water content for it to be called dry.
Dr. Staschewski even found small potential differences in normal gypsum/plaster,
during this drying process. Only after a long period, something like half a year or so,
did the potential disappear, and after checking he found the gypsum to be bone dry.

When we want to polarise a material in our cells, it seems most logical to apply the
polarising voltage during the phase where the material actually solidifies and hardens in that
polarised state. And so, it seems to me, if our material takes some time to settle and dry,
we may need to put and keep the voltage on it during the entire time it is solidifying and drying.
But of course this depends on the material. In my experience, gypsum remains quite liquid for
quite some time before it actually solidifies.
Like you said, Sutra, you may not want to apply voltages directly to the mix of water and gypsum,
as that will likely cause electrolysis and such reactions, and we probably don't want that.
Perhaps you can use this method: wrap a layer of plastic around the conductive tube, and roll a
layer of aluminium foil or something like it around that; now take a capacitor able to stand the voltage
you want to apply for polarisation, and hook one end up to the central electrode. Now you can put
your voltage on the other capacitor plate and on the aluminium foil, and the electrodes them-
selves should now start to build the opposite charge which is just seperation of electrostatic charges
inside the cell and does not involve actual current from the outside running through the cell.
Of course you should keep the field lines in mind and apply the right polarity on the right capacitor plates,
and you could hook another capacitor between the foil and the rods capacitor for stability, and you should
make sure that the layer of plastic (or other isolator) around your tube as well as the dielecric of the capacitor
is able to stand the voltage you want to apply or otherwise things will burn out and current may still run
through the cell...
But you might try that? Since you're not actually feeding current through the cell, there should not be much
electrolysis or anything like that. Just a suggestion. :)
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: triffid on August 24, 2008, 03:43:55 PM
I am really impressed with the progress people in this thread has made with tapping some energy from the vacuum(ie.work with tourmaline).I Just wanted to throw out a couple of offbeat sources of materials I ran across in my readings.The powdered coffee was really used in a solid fuel recipe for model rockets.For this thread I was thinking that when wet you could mix stuff with it and when it drys it would hold materials in place.I was thinking too that I saw my mom roll her own smokes sometimes when I was growing up .And I saw a roll of duct tape I didn't know I had.So I started thinking that I could roll up a battery made out of some dry materials.Mostly I read about stuff.I don't usually do experimenting unless its real simple .I would be jealous if I saw some of the workshops you people have set up.Also I appreciate all the hard work everyone here has done.I am a chemist (B.S.)
and While I don't work as one now.I still have the education and the experience of one.I am hopeful for the future when I see people such as you guys trying to make a difference.To measure stuff in grams you need a triple beam balance(I have one).Your teaspoon measurements are fine.We can figure out the grams later if we need to .Triffid
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: triffid on August 24, 2008, 03:49:48 PM
Koen 1,I would be happy to have you name a few biological materials for me.After all the more I know the more I can help out here.Also garlic is a source of Ge.Triffid.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: triffid on August 24, 2008, 09:25:46 PM
Donb't overlook using crockpots as a source of heat and of course theres always a locked car (146 deg f) on a hot day.Also if you live near a rail road track you can crush your stones on the track.Just don't let the train people see you.Or you might get into trouble and have to explain yourself to the police.Triffid
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: jeff0516161 on August 24, 2008, 10:12:29 PM
@Ian, yes please just call me Jeff. The numbers were just the result of yahoo randomly picking numbers.

As far as the urine goes, I am not being sarcastic. I'm glad you realize the chemical makeup and the possible benefits of it. The Egyptians were taught this by the Sumerians. Evidence has been shown the Egyptians used it with their A/G tesla like coil setup. Tesla built his tesla coil and free energy taken from the ionosphere all based on studying the Egyptian hieroglyphics. Where do you think our light bulb came from? Tesla and Edison worked very close together. Other glyps show pictures of light bulbs.  I posted here a few weeks ago. In one of the links you can read how they used their urine.

I'm sorry if some of you think this is off the subject. However, I just want to say the answers are here and we just need to look at ancient history and follow what our more informed ancestors already had knowledge of. Whether any of you believe me or not....our fiber optics and cd laser technology came from our ancient history. I won't get into how I know this...sorry.

Jeff
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on August 25, 2008, 10:03:16 AM
Jeff,
off topic as indeed it is, I also have a fascination with ancient "Egyptian"
(and Sumerian, and Indian, etc) technology.
It is not clear to me what you refer to with an Egyptian "A/G tesla like coil setup".
Can you give an example of this?
Or are you perhaps referring to the "Djed" or "Tet" pillar?
I've actually been pondering various interpretations of that for some time and
although it is clearly a voltage multiplier twice the zise of a man or more,
I don't really know of any actual Tesla-like coil setups depicted or used
by the Egyptians.
I do know of the Caduceus Staff which, in a set of interpretational variants,
could be interpreted as a dual coil setup most probably used for periodic
electrical discharge very similar to oldfashioned Hertz-style radio wave
generation and/or rectification, but that again is something quite different
from a Tesla-coil like setup...
And the Arc of Moses was clearly a box-style version of the Djed, possibly
combined with a few characteristics that allow the observable charges to
fluctuate in an amplitude modulated manner thus allowing for simple radio
reception, or possibly not even that and simply one thermochemically powered
voltage multiplier and capacitor combination.
Urine is not ultimately necessary for any of these devices to work, but I do
admit that several possible versions of both the Djed and the Arc would probably
work better when a good electrolyte is used such as salt water, acid, urine,
blood, or something like that. Some sources claim the Egyptian priests urinated
on the base of the Djed pillars to stimulate their activity, others say it was water,
acid, or something else. And everyone with a reasonably translated bible can read
how the Arc needed hot coals and blood, and perhaps even wine, to be put on the
parapet during special rituals by 'priests' in special conducitve suits, before a big
arc lamp started emitting UV light which gave the priests sunburn. Thermochemical,
clearly. ;)
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on August 25, 2008, 12:59:21 PM
Koen 1,I would be happy to have you name a few biological materials for me.After all the more I know the more I can help out here.Also garlic is a source of Ge.Triffid.

Ok, off the top of my head,  and I may have misspelled one or two of them, and I may have omitted a few, so you may want to
double-check, but this is what pops into mind right now:
- the "classic" (semi-)conductive organic "blacks" (Melanines), generally polymer: Polypyrrole, Polyacetylene, and Polyaniline
- slightly newer versions of those: oxidised iodinated Polypyrrole and oxidised iodinated Polyacetylene, and Polyaniline
- the (semi-)conductive short chain molecules (mostly aromatic hydrocarbons) like pentacene and anthracene.

In general there are two mechanisms for conduction in organic molecules, one is very similar to normal semiconductive
elements and compounds and involves overlapping conduction bands and band gaps, the other is a charge carrier exchange
mechanism (ion  exchange), and there is quite a large overlap in these mechanisms, in organic (semi-)conductors.
In general such organic molecules or compounds with (semi-)conductive properties are sometimes referred to as
"organic metals", which is actually incorrect use of the term "metal" and instead "conductor" is meant, since it only
refers to certain organic molecules with overlapping conduction bands which allow for conduction. "Organic Germanium"
for example is some organic compound containing Germanium atoms and having a conduction similar to Germanium
(which is an intrinsic semiconductor and so "organic Germanium" is merely the wrong name for an organic semiconductor
compound containing a certain amount of Germanium).
Other names used for "organic semiconductor", besides "organic metal", are "conductive polymer", "semiconductive polymer",
"conductive melanine complex", "animal black conductors", "biological conductor". Some are used more often than others.

Wikipedia also mentions Rubrene as a short chain, and poly(3-hexylthiophene) and poly(p-phenylene vinylene) as two
long chain organic molecules that are (semi-)conductive, and gives a fairly good brief overview of conductive polymers here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conductive_polymers, of organic semiconductors here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_semiconductor,
and this site also gives some good info: http://www.organicsemiconductors.com/.
This Japanese site also gives good info in the articles, which may be more interesting to you, being a chemist and all. ;) http://jpsj.ipap.jp/journal/JPSJ-75-5.html
 
An interesting quote here is the following:
Quote
R. Nicolaus: "The most simple melanin can be considered the acetylene-black from which it is possible to derive all the others..... Substitution does not qualitatively influence the physical properties like conductivity, colour, EPR, which remain unaltered." from The Nature of Animal Blacks ( "acetylene-black" = polyacetylene)
(from that last site). This seems to imply that it doesn't really matter much which melanine variant you use...

Well, so much for my quick summary. :)
Hope that helps?
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: triffid on August 25, 2008, 07:58:38 PM
Thanks Koen 1,It helps a lot.Last night I dug up three or more books on offbeat sources of materials.No they are not named "offbeat sources".But I found about three new materials to add to what I have already mentioned here.I will have to post them at a later time as I have to get back to work from lunch.Triffid
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: sutra on August 25, 2008, 10:54:54 PM
Hi guys,

just an update, the cell is now fully dry and shocked with 300 VDC, it "pumps" 0,540 V with no AMPS at all.........damn, the meter's fuse must have blow again.......
After shorting, the voltage rises very fast back to the initial output and remains there very stable.
The resistivity of the cell is of about ....... shit is too erratic...

Very Puzzling for me...probably the mix didn't grab the post....


Any though about it from you guys?

Ciao
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: sutra on August 25, 2008, 11:00:11 PM
yep, the post just came out......shit!

Out of my experience, I can state the following:

The polarity of the cells does follow the elecronegativity of the metal used, all the times. If the electrodes are of the same metal, the polarity swaps back and forth, therefore I think that the best combination would be aluminum casing and copper or brass central post.

The mix showed a good voltage yeld but it was too brittle to be used.

The metal used where the empty AAA cell as casing and a polished stainless steel as post. I shocked the cell with blows of 300 VDC polarized as + to the central post, negative to the casing. The polarization swapped immediately, remaining constant.

The mix should be modified in order to reduce shrinkage and easier drying on the stove, as I did with this one, I will add some tourmaline dust to the next one.

The mix must contain more than 50% in weight of CaO or Rochelle salt if used as bonding agent.

I think that the polarization can also be done only once the mix sets.....

The research continues....

Ciao
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: jeanna on August 25, 2008, 11:16:40 PM
Now, I don't want you guys to get pissed at me .  ;D  I think this is still on topic.

In the old days of what is now called "natural dyeing" urine was often used to condition the dyebath . It has a good reactivity but it was always used stale. 

It is a different compound when fresh (as your nose will tell you.)

Anyway the reason for this post is to say if you have an idea for its use, maybe you should collect some urine and let it sit in a jar for 4 days before you try it.

jeanna

Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: AbbaRue on August 26, 2008, 10:18:13 AM
Polyvinylidene fluoride PVDF:
Anyone know were to get this stuff, it's Piezoelectric?

Also read that cane sugar is piezoelectric, anyone tried adding this to there cell yet?
It may get your cell working really sweet.  ;D

Link of piezoelectric materials.
http://www.piezomaterials.com/ 

The more I think about it the more I believe piezoelectric is the secret behind the crystal cell.

Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: triffid on August 26, 2008, 01:26:27 PM
Ok,I have those three off beat sources.
1.) Elmers glue contains polyvinyl acetate,a carbon based polymer.When borax is added to the glue.Crosslinks occur between the polymer chains giving it a gel-like consistency.
2.)A water loving polymer,polyacrylate,is in disposable diapers.Cut one open to get what you need.
3.)Laundry bluing(Mrs Steward's brand only) contains tiny particles of a blue powder(ferric hexacyanoferrate).These particles are useful in serving as structures to grow salt crystals on.


Pretty much when borax is added to carbon based polymers(including corn starch) gells will form.Hope this helps somebody.Koen1,I looked at those sources you provided last night.Thank you very much I will need more time with them.Triffid
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on August 26, 2008, 01:30:52 PM
@AbbaRue: lol, that was originally my conviction, but I have in the mean time
adjusted it. I think we can make several slightly different types of crystal cell,
and I do still believe piezoelectric materials can be used, but I also think it's just
one of the materials needed. My reasoning there is that piezos, being sensitive to
pressure differences, might actually "feel" gravitational fluctuations and produce
charges, so that is a potential "input" source. On he other hand, we can also use
pyroelectric materials sensitive to very low IR, and these could use the environmental
heat "input", and we can use microdiodes to rectify microwaves and other e/m,
and we can polarise the material so it acts like an electret...
Nevertheless, I do agree that piezo materials are very interesting in this context. :)

@All: For your viewing pleasure I shall attach a neat picture of the ingredients and
parts I have used to make a fresh new Hutchison style Cell, according to Johns
own description. I made this Cell yesterday, but I will have to re-melt and re-polarise
the entire thing since my (second hand) high voltage generator has decided to join
the great spirit in the sky during the evening and polarisation was not achieved. ;)
I am now dusting off an old bug-zapper which I intend to use to apply the needed
high voltage during the cooling and curing phase. The picture shows (l.t.r.):
An aluminium can (tube with bottom welded on), a plastic can containing crushed
Iron Pyrites, a plastic can containing crushed Galena, a bowl of Rochelle Salt
(the exact quantity to fill the tube), a small vial of Germanium powder, a vial of small
pieces of Pyrite "Fools Gold", a chunk of Galena crystal, and a pure copper rod.
Construction was according to JH's description: put R.salt in tube, heat tube untill
R.salt has turned liquid, add crushed Pyrite, Galena, and a pinch of Germanium,
stirr very well, stirr while cooling a little, and when it becomes a thick paste,
insert central electrode, connect high voltage source, leave to cool and settle,
when completely cool and hard, remove voltage source. Presto. ;D
(Don't forget to put a strong bucket over the thing during the hV phase,
John claims it is at this point that several of his Cells exploded. ;))

I have considered adding stuff like crushed Tourmaline but have decided not to
for the time being. First a pure JH-style version, then maybe later add stuff.

Regards! :)
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on August 27, 2008, 04:59:57 AM
G'day all,

@Koen:  Nice picture. ;D  As always very interested in your results.  Good luck with the JH cell.

@All:  Here at the Canberra branch of Muppet Labs , work has been progressing steadily all week.

4 new cells have been built and there have been a few supprises along the way.
As you know I made a swinging calcium carbonate cell, well it doesn't swing anymore in fact it doesn't do anything anymore. In the bin with it!

The next cell was a bit of a departure from usual cell techniques. For this I made up 2 batches of rochelle based
materials , one doped with iron oxide and the other with gallium plated quartz sand and tourmaline.
Using one of my Al cigar tubes I swilled molten oxide mixture around the inside just to give it a thin coating.
The RS and oxide solidified and produced a good bond with the AL.
With the copper electrode I dunked it in the RS and sand mix and put a coating on the copper. After cooling I gave it a couple more coats. Again when cool I dunked it in the oxide mix. Then sucessively built up alternate layers of sand and oxide. The electrode was then set in place with the bulk of the sand mix.
It's a fiddely process and you need a bit patients. Ah whatever I could never spell that word  ;D

At first the cell would not work  5 mV @ 2 uA was all it could do. Anyway I left it for a few hours and it was only while I was showing jeanna what a brilliant failure it was did it spring to life.  0.891V with a peak current of 6 mA. Under short circuit  the current dropped sharply but did hold at 0.5 mA for 10 to 15 seconds before I unhooked it.
The recovery time for this cell is twice as fast as the others. Overnight on the data logger it flat lined at 0.72V.
It doesn't know it yet but it's about to go on dead short for 24 hours. ;D

The next 2 cells were basically the usual deal, Al tube, copper electrode, RS , sand and slightly different amounts of Iron oxide all mixed together and set in place.  Both have voltages around 0.25V and put out a current >20uA for half an hour.
Once they drop below 20uA they take about 90 mins to recover.

On the 16th of April I made a cell called " cigar1". This was the simplest of the lot. Just an Al tube, coppere electrode, RS and quartz sand for the mix. Nothing more. This cell consistently had OC voltages >0.88V. It could also put out a peak current of 15 mA. Again while discussing it's performance with jeanna I decided to make a small swithing circuit to go across the data logger.
For 7 seconds a dead short was put across the cell and then a recovery time of 40 seconds. This cycling is ongoing and
was started 24 hours ago. I have posted a screen capture of the voltages. The yellow line is the voltage from a "flat plate cell I made this morning, I will talk about that one later.
As you can see (purple trace) the voltage remains stable from short through recovery.

Ok I've got a bit of a mess to clean up so I'll catch you guys later.

Kind regards
Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on August 28, 2008, 06:35:39 PM
Update on the new JH style Cell:
Polarisation with the bug zapper done, but one of the fuses in the building
blew during the night and I guess that was the end of the polarisation...
In any case it did not work, the cell did give some output but it was tiny,
around the 0.15V and with a 10kOhm resistor around the 0.5 mA.
Horrible! this is the second time now that the simple polarising procedure
failed due to crappy electrics :(
I think I've fixed it now, though. I'm hoping to be able to try it again tomorrow.

Oh, I also managed to shock myself while trying to repair my old broken high
voltage generator  ;D great fun but I'd advise not to do it too often. Lol :D
Fortunately it was only around the 2kV so aside from being a real shocker
it wasn't too nasty.
And I got a nice burn from some of the boiling hot liquid mix of molten R.salt
with metal particles in it, when I stupidly tried to quickly keep the tube
from falling over by using my finger without first putting my thermal gloves on first.
Dumbdumbdumb ouchouchouch ;)
Good thing the old trick of quickly covering your burn in a thick layer of something
like cream or even powdered sugar still works. :) Had I not done that and put it under
cold water, it would probably look and feel a lot worse.

Anyway, will update when I remelt and repolarise. Again. ;)
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on August 28, 2008, 11:18:57 PM
G'day all,

@Koen:  I thought trying to kill ones self was my domain, but I don't mind sharing.  ;D ;D
We should get together some time, perhaps we could black out a whole city block.  ;D
Anyway keep going with the JH cell, I think you're the only one using germainium around here so
the results should be most interesting.

Right! I'm off to see what damage I can do in the kitchen (lab) and Koen, remember.... Pain Hurts!   ;D ;D

Cya later

Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: jeff0516161 on August 28, 2008, 11:48:05 PM
Just thought I would throw something out there...
I had a well dug, mostly through quartz... the result was a huge pile of crushed quartz..
Any of you guys think the crushed quartz could be used to experiment with? If so, any ideas how?
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on August 29, 2008, 01:22:09 AM
G'day all

@jeff:  Many of the cells built so far contain quartz sand so I would think that crushing quart to a powder would be much the same.
However from all the test results there is no conclusive evidence that using quartz actually makes much difference. it was basically used because it is a piezo electric material. It was also thought that it's dielectric properties may be useful.
There are many minerals found with quartz, so you may find pyrites or galena in your pile. May be worth a look.

Anyway as you can see, the experiments continue and we are always searching for novel ways of using the materials we have.
I suppose you could always dissolve some in sodium hydroxide and make sodium silicate. Thats pretty useful stuff.
If anything comes to mind I'll post it.

All the best

Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on August 29, 2008, 12:29:53 PM
Yes, I agree with Ian sort of. We know quartz is piezoelectric and we know
sand makes a good electret material and sand is mostly quartz, so that
suggests it can be used for Cell building. But so far we haven't really been able
to produce any Cells with only or mostly quartz that actually produce anything
other than a permanent electrostatic potential... But as far as polarisable dielectric materials
go, quartz (and fine quartz sand) are quite usefull and easily integrated into various
ceramic and other chemical mixes.

I'm not sure about the Galena or Pyrites... Of course it is true that these regularly occur in
strata that contain quite a lot of quartz, but I think it depends on the region etc...
If there are any lead- or iron-mines in the region where you live (even if they're depleted)
then yes indeed you may be able to find some pyrites or galena in your quartz rubble.
If you can find those, then you could try making a cell with those materials. And your quartz. ;)
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: jeff0516161 on August 29, 2008, 01:51:18 PM
Thanks for the replys. I will inspect the mixture more closely and let you know if it looks worth while to experiment with.



Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: AbbaRue on August 30, 2008, 08:48:13 AM
I bought some ss spoons at the dollar store 4 for a dollar, make great test beds.
I put some MAP into a spoon and heated it until it melted, and then placed a piece of Al. Foil into the melt.
Then zapped it with a high voltage arc, while it cooled.
I got 700mV and 90uA shorted across my amp meter.
But I tend to believe it might be galvanic in nature.
The MAP got really sticky and has a liquid in it after heating, don't know what the liquid is.
Didn't want to taste it to find out.  ;D
I think it may be phosphoric acid.
The spoon is the positive terminal. 
I tried zapping it with the foil as positive at first and got 200mV, after leaving it for a while
the polarity reversed, so I reheated it and zapped it again with the spoon as positive.
That is when I got the 700mV.

Will do more tests after leaving it to cure for a few days. See if the liquid dries up.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: triffid on August 31, 2008, 03:47:39 PM
I went  downtown where I live and found several sources of materials that could be picked up off the ground.Broken glass that could be crushed further.All sorts of sand/dirt.All for the picking up.I found a construction site where pieces of sheetrock could be picked up for free.I mentioned this because I was wondering where to get lowcost materials to experiment with.I have no real river nearby.I do have a few pieces of crystals( what I believe is calcite). And put a voltmeter to useby  putting the contacts on different areas on the crystals.I could make the minus sign appear and disappear almost at will on certain points of the crystal.Most of the time I could not get a minus sign at all except for about 8 points on the crystal.Again I really need a better voltmeter.Mine will not read millivolts.Triffid
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on September 01, 2008, 12:26:14 PM
Personally I think glass isn't very usefull in Cell materials,
unless you're thinking of actually heating it to melting point
and making a vitreous material, then it might be used in the mix...

And in my opinion Calcite is not a very good material for making Cells,
or at least not as far as I have been able to establish experimentally.
I have tried to mix in conductive and semiconductive powders with
calcite/gypsum type mixes in attempts to increase whatever output
they might yield, and in attempts to add dopant for increased polarisation
of the bulk material, but none of those experiments produced anything
above simple gypsum drying polarisation (the potential of which was extremely
low and disappeared when the stuff dried completely, except for one cell where
it seemed to continue but that was later found to have extensive corrosion
on the metal particles which proved the additional potential was galvanic).

But of course this is only intended as constructive info and you should by all means
do the experiments you have planned involving Calcite. You might just strike a
material composition that does produce higher and lasting potentials. :)

Low cost materials to experiment with you say? Well, it does sort of depend on
what style of Cell you're going for...
If you're going for a Hutchison-style Cell, the materials stated by John are pretty
clear and not very expensive at all: crushed pyrites, crushed galena, if you have it
crushed germanium (from Ge diodes for example), and Rochelle Salt as a binder.
If you're going for a more Reid-style Cell, the exact materials are vague but it certainly
is a sort of ceramic-like material which solidifies permanently. So if you're going for that,
you may want to look at fairly simple ceramic materials. I have used and still do use
things like Kaolin in Cell experiments, for example. (That's a type of white clay used in
pocelain for example)
Things like pyrites, galena, tourmaline, etc can often be bought at or via local mineral/
rock/crystal shops, or ordered online. Tourmaline can be expensive depending on what
colour you want (the green variety is much more sensitive to deep infrared than the black
variety for example, but also more rare and more expensive, usually), but "fools gold" pyrites
are relatively cheap and so is galena. Things like quartz (powder or sand), mica, kaolin,
plaster of paris, etc, can usually be bought at (or ordered at) a local ceramic crafts/potters supply shop,
or at arts&crafts shops, and are often not very expensive.
Several art supply shops in the region here also sell all kinds of powders intended as pigments
for painters to use in their homemade paint, and among these powders are potentially usefull things
like powdered copper, aluminium, silver, gold, iron, carbon, and various oxides.
Rochelle Salt and many other materials can be bought from lab supply shops but they can sometimes
be expensive. You can make it yourself too, from "Cream of Tartar", by a fairly simple chemical reaction
as some here have posted in the past. For that you will need some simple chemicals that can often be
bought at local supply shops. Quite a few materials can be made at home using such simple household
chemicals, if you know what you're doing. And the needed chemicals like caustic soda, hydrochloric acid,
etc, can most often be bought locally and cheaply.
And of course you can collect rocks of (or with patches of) the less common mineral types to get
materials. I'd go for the ones with patches of shiny, glittery, and preferably iridescent minerals on them. ;)
And those with some metallic glitter or glare to them. But hey, that's me ;)
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: triffid on September 01, 2008, 03:54:10 PM
Thanks,Koen 1 for the good advice.I learned how to use a propane  torch in one of the jobs I had before
and wanted to suggest it to people here,But was not sure because I knew a lady who burned down her house with one.But it would certainly melt some things together.Triffid
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on September 01, 2008, 04:27:01 PM
Lol :D Yes kids, watch out with propane torches! ;)

But yeah, you're right, certain materials can be 'sintered' into compounds.
Depends on how clean you want things of course, as obviously the combustion
vapours from the propane will contain lots and lots of carbon dioxides and quite
probably several carbohydrate residus, and these may well pollute whatever
material you're trying to sinter.
And of course a quick blast with the propane torch can help get your
metal container up to higher temperatures faster.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on September 04, 2008, 04:10:58 PM
Okay, here's a little update:

The Hutchison-style Cell has now one again solidified, this time with
a proper 2kV applied to it over the course of several hours while the
Cell material hardened. The Cell shows a static voltage of 1.3 Volts,
if not connected to anything; not surprising, that's what we tend to get
from Cu-Al bimettallic layers.
I connected a 1kOhm resistor between the electrodes. At first it showed
zero output.
Just this morning I measured it, ad I repeated that measurement just 5 minutes
ago, and I am not measuring a DC of 300milliVolt rising up to 340milliVolt,
at an amperage of 0,1 milliAmp, across the resistor.
We seem to have output! :)
Alright, it is terribly low output, but it still is output. ;)
Finally my first Hutchison-style Cell that actually does more than just sit there
being a dud.

Now for boosting the output. Hutchison gives no clues as to how output could be
increased, unfortunately. I think I shall attempt to increase the output by just
adding more Galena and Pyrite to the Cell material. Think I shall try adding
another cubic cm of both.
Suggestions are welcome. :)

So, conclusion: a Hutchison-style Cell made from an aluminium tube slightly
larger than a can of RedBull, with a copper rod as central electrode, almost
entirely filled with Rochelle Salt and with approximately 1 to 1,5 cubic centimetre
of crushed Galena and approximately an equal amount of crushed Pyrite (both
ranging from fine powder to pieces of maximum size 0,1 mm diameter),
and a pinch of pure Germanium (powder), melted, mixed, and 2 to 2,5 kiloVolts
applied to the electrodes, did result in what appears to be a weak form of a
working Hutchison-style Crystal Cell.
Perhaps it should be noted that the output mentioned recently on Hutchisons
personal blog was equally low, in the range of the couple of hundred millivolts
but a slightly higher amperage... So perhaps I actually am getting close to the
Cells Hutchison makes after all. :)

So the next step is to increase the amperage.  If that doesn't work, I'm not
sure... Think I may give the Hutchison-style a rest again and get back
to my more ceramic-like Cell experiments. At least I got some amps from those. :)


On a sidenote, I took some crushed Tourmaline and mixed it in with a few drops
of molten Rochelle Salt + Galena + Pyrites and had that solidify between two
layers of conductor, one of copper and one of aluminium (in the hopes of getting
some slight polarsation due to the different metals). Sticks to the aluminium just great,
produces 0,45V potential difference between the layers, which did seem to go up
a little to 0,47V when it was warmed, but never went higher. The stuff did not bond
to the copper well at all, and after a few tests the material disattached itself from the copper.
This was just to see if R.salt could be used as binder for a Tourmaline-based heat-conversion chip.
I used purpleish/pinkish Tourmaline for that, as the colour of Tourmaline dictates the wavelenth
of infrared it is sensitive to. "Deep infrared" is closest to actual thermal radiation, while "shallow
infrared" is closest to red light. Greenish Tourmaline is said to be one of the most sensitive kinds
for deep IR, then purple, then all others. Most common type is black and the least sensitive to
deep IR. Or so they say. Of course the colour depends on the amount and type of transition metals
in the Tourmaline crystal structure. Just for your information. ;) ;D
Perhaps actually making Tourmaline from scratch would be the best way to produce chips of usefull
composition...
Obviously this would be a heat transducer chip and not at all a Crystal Energy Cell. But interesting
nevertheless. ;)
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on September 05, 2008, 02:57:28 AM
G'day all,

@Koen:  Way to go dude  ;D  How stable is the 0.1mA output ?  Also was your polarizing voltage placed across electrode to can?
Your test voltages match up with mine  ;D. It's good to have confirmation of these things.

As for boosting the current output, well thats the 64 million dollar question  :)  One reading JH does not show us is the voltage on his little battery under load ie when it is running the fan. Anyway Koen, please give us updates on your JH cell, it may be useful as a benchmark.

@All
In the last few days I've ramped up cell production and like Koen have tried to simulate a JH cell as far as we know them.
I do not have any Germanium or galena so I've had to improvise.

In place of the germamium I made some gallium coated silcon carbide powder. Most interesting stuff.
The first cell off the production line ( kitchen bench) was made with plaster of paris as the main bonding material.
I called this one the PP cell. ( no urine involved  ;D )  The mix solidified ok but then became very brittle and the electrode fell out. Sound familiar ?
Before it fell apart it had a voltage of 1.1V.
I made another and swapped a couple of ingredients, left out the sand and inserted some silicon carbide powder.
This one held together very well and after 1 hour 45mins on the datalogger had a voltage of 0.48V.
At the moment this cell (PP+SiC) has a 10kohm resistor across it.    0.1V@ 1uA.  Not a mind blowing amount but it is constant.

Also I've started to polarize the cells electrostatically. That is, no current flows through the cell when polarizing.
I have noticed that all cells since do not go through a reverse polarization phase.
The next cell was an experiment with ratios and the reintroduction of borax.
The GaSic cell was 80% rochelle salt, the other 20% made up of tourmaline, GaSiC ( gallium coated silicon carbide), pyrites and borax.
To aid electrode stability I wound the wire around a 5mm drill bit so the corkscreww design now anchors more firmly in the mix.
This cell sits at 0.44V.  A higher voltage can be achieved with the use of sodium silicate.

The Borax 2 cell was made on the 2nd Sept.  This one was made in an Al cigar tube and the main binder was white builders cement.
I went this way because after 5 months the Portland cement cell was still putting out 0.5V @ 5 uA.
Although this cell contains sodium silicate and can be considered in it's galvanic stage, it looks very promising.  3 days on the datalogger and it hasn't budged from 1.26V.

Now back to the low current problem. I had the thought that perhaps the oxide layer on the Al tubes was somehow impeding the current flow.
So to test this I inserted a thin stainless steel sleeve into some of the cells. First thing of note, not surprisingly, the cell voltages dropped to around 0.45V. However this modification did not seem to increase the available current.  Anyway as we all have seen the voltage on most cells
will recover to it's original value when the load is removed, some sooner than others.  The multilayered cell, built last week, shows remarkable powers of recovery even after 3 or more bouts of 12 hour short circuits. In fact each time the voltage comes back slightly higher. 0.941V after the first sc  to 0.951V after the third. temperature was monitored and was not an issue.

There comes a point in the cells output where the current drawn is equalized by it's recovery current. 

Anyway thats me blurb for the day ;D.  I'll post the full formulas for any of the above cells if requested.
Oh and by the way, if you do polarize your cells electrostatically make sure you discharge the cell before you pick it up.  Zap!
Sometimes I think my stupidity is boundless  ;D ;D ;D


Ok back to fight.

Ian





Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on September 05, 2008, 02:59:51 AM
Well!  would yo look at that......... a full member!   ;D.  Now I can take my training wheels off   ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: AbbaRue on September 05, 2008, 06:45:28 AM
@ian middleton
What are you using to charge the cells with electrostatic charge?
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on September 05, 2008, 07:20:51 AM
G'day all,

@AbbaRue.   I'm still using the bug zapper. Unloaded the voltage from it around 2.5kV.  All I do now is place the new cell in a tube made of mylar. The mylar tube is then inserted into an outer AL sleeve. The outer sleeve is connected to the +kV and the center electrode in the cell
is connected to -kV. Because of the insulating mylar , no current flows through the cell so the electrostatic field is maintained.

All the best

Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: triffid on September 05, 2008, 08:26:41 PM
Way to go Guys!!! Sounds like some successes here!Triffid
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: triffid on September 07, 2008, 01:00:20 PM
Lol! I have found a recipe for fake moon dust.It was put together at Cornell university  pre-1969 moon landings.When the real moon dust and this fake moon dust was put side by side they were found to be almost indistinguishable in appearence and electrical and thermal properties.I don't what the electrical properties (or thermal) of moon dust is.The fake moon dust is composed of portland cement,charcoal,and hairspray.I thought this might be of interest here.My source is" Broco's Brain" by Carl Sagan cc.1974 page 233.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: triffid on September 07, 2008, 01:01:17 PM
Lol! I have found a recipe for fake moon dust.It was put together at Cornell university  pre-1969 moon landings.When the real moon dust and this fake moon dust was put side by side they were found to be almost indistinguishable in appearence and electrical and thermal properties.I don't what the electrical properties (or thermal) of moon dust is.The fake moon dust is composed of portland cement,charcoal,and hairspray.I thought this might be of interest here.My source is" Broco's Brain" by Carl Sagan cc.1974 page 233.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: triffid on September 07, 2008, 01:01:47 PM
Lol! I have found a recipe for fake moon dust.It was put together at Cornell university  pre-1969 moon landings.When the real moon dust and this fake moon dust was put side by side they were found to be almost indistinguishable in appearence and electrical and thermal properties.I don't what the electrical properties (or thermal) of moon dust is.The fake moon dust is composed of portland cement,charcoal,and hairspray.I thought this might be of interest here.My source is" Broco's Brain" by Carl Sagan cc.1974 page 233.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: triffid on September 07, 2008, 01:07:55 PM
Sorry about posting the same message three times.I had a problem with this computer.I wanted to say that I do not know what the electrical and thermal properties of moon dust are.And was trying to correct my post when the computer started freezing up on me.triffid
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on September 07, 2008, 03:17:17 PM
G'day all

@triffid:  Funny you should mention Portland cement. One of the cells I made today contained 40% white buiders cement. This is similar to portland cement but much more refined like plaster of paris. I'm getting very good voltages from these.  0.757V with a surge current of 1.5mA.

@all: It appears that the electrostatically polarized cells get stronger after they have been shorted multiple times. That is with the formulas I use anyway.
The PP+SiC cell is putting out a steady 60uA or so across an AVO8 meter and has been doing this all day and all night. This is unlike the other cells who's current dwindles down to almost nothing after a few minutes.
However, the curing of any type of cement is a chemical reaction and therefore these cells are still galvanic. I will let you know how they stand at the end of the week. ;D

Ok, move along please, nothing more to see here  ;D

Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: AbbaRue on September 07, 2008, 09:15:53 PM
MAP update:
Made a large MAP cell 12cm x 14cm. Left it shorted out for a few days.
I still get  over 600 mV.  A 10k resistor stays at a steady 60uA. which is the correct current at 0.6V.
A 1k resistor runs a little short at 400uA.  It should be 600uA.
So the cell seems to have a max. current rating of 400uA.
My MAP cell is made of a stainless steel pan with map in it and a piece of Aluminum foil on top.
The SS pan is the positive.   I heated it on the stove till the MAP melted and then placed the foil on top.
I zapped it with about 10kV from a flyback transformer circuit I built years ago.

For newbe's info "MAP" stands for "monoammonium phosphate". It is a piezoelectric material.
It is a common fertilizer sold at the Co-op for about $850 a ton.  I purchased a 100 pounds of it.
I place the MAP in 2 layers of coffee filters and tie it off. 
Then I put that into a pot of distilled water and boil it till the water is well saturated with MAP.
I poured the liquid into a SS pan. And evaporated it with a convection oven so a thin coating of MAP crystals where left.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: AbbaRue on September 07, 2008, 09:18:36 PM
Maybe my next experiment will be to make 6 cells and connect them in series to make a 3 volt battery.

Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on September 08, 2008, 12:33:45 AM
G'day all,

@AbbaRue:  Thanks for the great info on the MAP. I haven't seen it here in Australia so I'll have to go looking.
I'm assuming the map crystals are a greenish colour.

@All: A quick update on the PP+SiG cell. Overnight the current has risen from 60uA up to 118uA with a voltage of 146mV
It's been over 48 hours continuous shunt by the AVO8 on the 300uA range. The shunt resistance is 1.25Kohm.

Keep up the good work guys.

Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: AbbaRue on September 09, 2008, 06:35:17 AM
MAP update.
I left my large MAP cell shorted out since right after I last posted.
Almost immediately after unshorting the cell tonight I got over 800 mV.
I checked the current output, with 10k I got 80 uA which is about right for .8 V
With the 1k resistor I get just over 500uA which is low for the .8V
It appears that shorting the cell has increased it's voltage output.
Very interesting, I would expect the opposite from a chemical battery that's been shorted out for 2 days.

@Ian
The MAP crystals are a tobacco brown colour and have a long thin shape to them.

Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on September 09, 2008, 02:32:11 PM
@AbbaRue: interesting line of experiments you're doing there
with your MAP. :) I did a quick check at a local farmers co-op
and found they sell "ammoniumphosphate" fertiliser which seems
to consist mainly (90% or so) of MAP.
However, since this borders organic chemistry and is somewhat
off the beaten path of semiconductor physics, I have not yet figured
out a good combination of materials that we might be able to mix
in with the MAP to get some sort of unidirectional semiconductivity
withing the MAP-based matrix... Guesstimation suggests we might
be able to mix in one or more of those organic semiconductors like
Melanin, with either some variation in the relative charges of these
respective molecules, or perhaps simply the addition of some dopant,
in order to approach an internal semicoinductive rectification effect
inside the MAP-based material. But Like I said, I haven't checked this
chemically at all yet, I'm just offering ideas at this point. ;)

@All: on another note, I have been pondering the new "high temperature"
superconductors like LaOCuAs and LaOFeAs. The basic composition
is very straightforward, but the odd thing is that such materials show
superconductivity up to 150K which is, to put it plainly, just weird.
After all, half of the bulk material consists of Lathanium Oxide, which
is an oxide and therefore a very bad conductor, and Copper- or Iron-
Arsenide, which is obviously a II-V compound, and may be slightly more
conductive than "semi-". (After all, II-VI like FeS can be semiconductive,
and so are III-V like GaN and AlAs. And obviously the V and VI groups
are the nonconductive parts there, so moving the average of the compound
closer to the conducors would probably yield a conductor. Not as good as
the pure II-element, but better than a II-VI compound it would seem...)
The superconductivity effect is not eplained by this. Current models suggest
there is probably phonon exchange taking place between most likely the
copper- respectively iron-atoms which is possible due to the spatial arrangement
and bond- and spin- interactions between these atoms and those around it,
which sort of determine the pattern in which the electrons arrange themselves
over said atoms "orbits" and could cause near perfect phonon conduction.
I have not seen much analysis on this yet, but this is what I gathered so far.
Oh... I just realised some of the above may be too cryptic for some readers...  :-\
Well anyway, where was I headed with this? ;) Oh right: imagine we have such
a material matrix such as these "high temperature" superconductors, which
consists of a LaOFeAs-like structure... And imagine we could introduce a certain
degree of polarisation in this material, so that one side of the material block is
relatively "n" in repect to the other side, which is then obviously relatively "p"...
Imagine we could do this, then we'd have something similar to what in semiconductors
is a diode. But semiconductors depend on ambient temperature for their (semi-)
conductivity, and when the temperature drops below a certain threshold, they stop
being conductors completely. With the superconductor materials, this is the
other way around: they become more conductive as temperature drops, and less
conductive as it rises. So instead of semiconductive room temperature diodes,
these fantasy devices would be superconductive low temperature diodes. Yes,
it would be a bit difficult to use them as they'd need cooling, but on the other hand
they don't have the resistance that semiconductors have so they'd channel even the
smallest charges... However, untill a comprehensive model of these new superconductive
materials is developed it is very difficult to figure out what element mix could or would
form into such a crystalline lettice structure as to allow certain constituent atoms
phonon conduction, as well as the possibility to introduce "dopant" in the matrix.
So untill then this is all highly speculative and mostly just some wild thoughts. ;) ;D

anyone for more wild thoughts? ;)
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: AbbaRue on September 09, 2008, 07:32:39 PM
The following website explains were MAP is mined, and how it is processed.
Also shows a photo of it in form you buy it in.
http://www.agrium.com/products_services/ingredients_for_growth/phosphate/monoammonium_phosphate.jsp

The interesting point is the ore is mixed with gypsum, here is a quote from the sit:
"High quality phosphate ore is mined in an open pit and processed into a fine powdered rock. The rock is reacted with water and sulphuric acid to produce a slurry of phosphoric acid and gypsum solids. The gypsum is filtered from the slurry, and the phosphoric acid is increasingly concentrated for various grades and uses."

So the MAP already has some of the qualities of the Hutchison Cell when it is mined.


The cell gives me 550 mV at 500uA across a 1k resistor so I hope I can run something with 5 or 6 connected in series.
I bought some more stainless steel pans and now I just need to grow some more MAP crystals.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: JRowe on September 15, 2008, 09:48:51 AM
So, has anyone been blown up since the last post, or are you all just being quiet?

I've been following various incarnations of the Crystal Power cell for about 2 years, after seeing John Hutchison on TV.

I looked into various explanations for the phenomena, and while I am still skeptical as to the reality of John's claims in particular, I am absolutely certain that a crystal power cell can be created.

The current accepted understanding of physics has the strength of pure mathematics behind it. It's simple, verifiable, and proven. Most of the accepted Laws of Physics are unbendable (which statement is likely to make me somewhat unpopular on these forums.) You cannot get something from nothing. This, while being purely logical, is also true in Physics. Law of conservation of energy and all that.

Quantum physics also has the power of pure mathematics behind it. The law of conservation of energy, when combined at the quantum level with the uncertainty principle, lead to secondary projections. We don't entirely understand those projections, but the gist of it is simple: Where classical physics sees and reacts to space entirely empty of matter and energy (vacuum,) quantum physics sees a teeming sea of virtual particles. Tertiary conjectures and verifiable experiments have led to the discovery that those virtual particles can impact the 'real' world, in a manner that is apparent to classical physics. Hawking radiation, the Casimir-Polder effect, particle entanglement, and so forth.

We are discovering that arrangements of particles at the atomic level can significantly impact the effects those particles have on their environment.

When Edison was researching the lightbulb, he had the fundamental concept in mind... a particular material, when subjected to certain conditions, having an electric current running through it, would emit light, by a verifiable, mathematically, and physically legitimate process.

I propose that, a particular material(which we do not know the method of manufacture, composition, or desired properties as of yet), when subjected to certain conditions (again, unknown) will produce electricity by some verifiable, mathematically and physically legitimate process.

What is the underlying concept? Since you can't get something from nothing, (pet theories aside, and I apologize if that sounds insulting) if you want to get energy from a particular arrangement of materials, you need a source.

Mostly in this thread I've seen ambient harvesters and chemical reactions (which either retained energy from the baking process, or picked up energy from environments, or underwent chemical reactions, causing a galvanic effect.)

A true crystal power cell, as probably intended by most experimenters, would harvest energy from a quantum effect. Specifically, the Casimir-Polder effect, which is a direct consequence of one of the fundamental principles of quantum physics, and one that has been mathematically and experimentally verified.

For two metallic plates in a parallel arrangement in a vacuum, the Casimir force is measured according to the distance between the plates and the surface area. The plates must be uncharged and no external electromagnetic field be present, or the Casimir Effect is nullified.

The problem is now one of engineering. The force is constant, attractive (save in certain geometrical configurations) and dependent on an easily manipulated environmental factor(electromagnetic fields.)

Assuming one has met the conditions, one must take the energy from the system in some way that allows the system to retain its configuration after the energy has been removed.

So the requirements for a working crystal cell, operating on the Casimir Effect, are simple:
1.) Set up a physical arrangement in which the Casimir Effect occurs.
2.) Harvest the energy created by the Casimir Effect.
3.) Retain, or maintain, the physical arrangement, so the production of energy is consistent.

When presented with the requirements, I had an epiphany: Parallel plates occur all the time in nature. Crystals are amazing structures. Between crystalline planes exists... vacuum. Or smaller atoms or molecules, or what have you. However, a Casimir Effect setup could conceivably occur naturally (and often does in nanotech experiments, where it's referred to as Stiction.)

Another wonderful property of crystals is piezoelectricity. Move a molecule out of alignment, and when it snaps back, you get a nice little burst of electricity! All piezoelectric crystals are pyroelectric as well (as ambient temperature changes, so does the physical structure of a crystal, and as the physical structure changes, so does its electric potential.)

So we have a naturally occurring framework in which we can conceive of Casimir Effect inducing structures.

Let's say we have an ideal crystalline material. It's highly piezoelectric, with relatively weak molecular bonds, meaning that it's easy to move one out of alignment. We dope the crystal so that each layer in the crystal lattice has a corresponding layer of metal. In between the layers we have a vacuum.

Metal-Crystal-Metal   | vacuum |  Metal-Crystal-Metal

What I project happening is relatively simple. The two layers of Metal, on opposing sides of the vacuum, will be parallel by the nature of crystalline growth. This will induce the Casimir Effect. The Casimir Force will push one or many of the molecules out of alignment. Once the plates are out of alignment, the Casimir Force disappears. When the force pushing the molcules out of alignment disappears, the molecules snap back into place, releasing the energy of the Casimir Force as electricity.

Two obstacles remain - discharging the current, which prevents the Casimir Effect from resuming, and surface area. Electrodes within the crystal could transport the current.

The Casimir Force is tiny. Exceptionally tiny. You would need pair of Casimir plates the size of football fields to power a 1W lightbulb. So my thought is that a solution can be found in fractals... If you manipulate the growth of the crystal, hundreds of millions of sets of plates could be grown, effectively simulating a single plate millions of times larger than any specific surface area within the crystal itself.

I'm not a chemist, or a physicist... I don't know enough about how crystals grow or molecular chemistry to understand how to use the formulas to find the properties needed for a setup like this. It seems to me that it's fairly airtight... you're getting something from a verifiable physical phenomena, using logical methodology through every point of construction and energy generation.

So how would you go about creating a crystal with these properties, short of building it molecule by molecule with an electron microscope?
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on September 15, 2008, 01:59:57 PM
G'day all,

@JRowe,  BLOWN UP?  of course I've blown myself up, I do it twice a week in this thread  ;D
Have you read most of the posts in this thread? What you have written matches very closely to what we are trying to achieve. Anyway thankyou for your thoughts. Have you tried to construct a cell yet? I'll be posting some results of the latest batch soon.

@Koen1:   G'day mate, hows the quirk?  ;D  I think I told you I had produced something similar. Anyway after one quirky mix had expanded and solidified I placed a peice under the microscope and found the matrix to be like a microscopic honeycomb. Because of the expansion of the mix, I think due to gasing, the cell was less dense than usual. However it puts out by far the greatest current. For this cell I used a new source of silicon, a finely powderd solar cell  ;D
Now I'm getting peak currents greater than 25mA. Give it a try and let us know what you think.

The gallium coated silicon carbide bonded to the Al tube so well it fractured it, so we still have the gallium/aluminium problem. Or I have at least  ;D


Ok time to go, spacecraft never sleep.

catch ya'll later

Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on September 15, 2008, 02:30:06 PM
@JRowe: Blown myself up? Hell no! I just managed to zap myself with another 2500 Volts
a few times... Nothing special... Although my glow-in-the-dark powder did glow when I
picked up the jar :D But no, no explodo this week. ;)

As for your Casimir related breakdown;
yeah, that's one of the underlying ideas, yes.
You seem to be  repeating what Hutchison has said about how he believes
the Casimir effect could be used.
And indeed, it might be. If we get the material mix right.

But so far none of the Cells based on Hutchisons recipes actually works.
My last version was almost exactly according to his descriptions,
and in the mean time that does not produce anything above 300mV at
0,1mA. Which is a uselessly flimsy output, obviously.

Hutchison himself does not reply to emails in which I describe my Cell build(s)
and ask him for suggestions. This is typical, and excactly what he has done in
the past: he seems to ignore honest communication about his cells.
It took quite some effort to get him to reveal the "ingredients", but even with those
I have not heard of anyone who has been able to produce a Hutchison-style
Cell that actually produces some proper output.
To be honest, I am starting to doubt whether John really has working versions
at all. After all, he hardly ever talks about them anymore while the demand for
alternative energy sources has been skyrocketing, which is odd, and he does
remain preoccupied with his "Hutchison effect" which he's been tinkering with
for over a decade no, while that does not appear to have much of a direct application yet...
And he never replies to communication about the Cells...
If it really is so easy to build them, and if they really do produce power forever
based solely on the Casimir effect and the rectifying abilities of the semiconductors
used in the material, then why is Hutchison not running his entire lab on an array
of his Cells? Why do we not see him build more and more Energy Cells?
Why does he waste his time blogging with Paris Hilton instead?
This lowers his credibility a little, in my opinion.

So far I have zero working Cells based on Hutchisons recipe and instructions,
unless you want to call the one that puts out 0,1mA a success  :-\,
while I have at least 15 working Cells based on a different material composition
that is not at all inspired by John.

And so, although I too like to think we can use various effects for harnessing
ambient energy fluctuations and including the Casimir effect, I must say I feel
that your story does not really add anything we didn't know yet, and it follows
the lines of thinking of Hutchison very much, while the proof of Johns pudding
so to speak remains to be seen.

One thing that I have found curious from the start is that only half of the Casimir effect
seems to be taken into account. After all, we know that two flat plates are attracted
to eachother by the Casimir effect, in effect the ambient energy pressure pushing them
together as they shield eachother from part of that pressure. And it is obvious that such
plates, if they are of different metals, will have a tendency to charge in respect to eachother
as they get closer, much like the Electrophorus plates are charged as they move about.
But the Casimir effect does not allow these plates to move away from eachother again.
So if the Casimir effect were the only thing in play here, we would have the microplates
or "platelets" as John calls them attract eachother, they may build up charges, and these
could conceivably be rectified by the right semiconductive "diode"s... But then what?
Taking the charges off the plates does not move them farther apart. The plates have no reason
to move apart at all, ever, unless charges are fed into the material which can electrostatically
repel the plates... But that doesn't happen, and so I wonder how John really imagines this.

Also, John claims the materials he named will, when crushed, form tiny plates or platelets,
which experience the Casimir effect amongst eachother. Well, Galena and Pyrite, the materials
he named, actually do not tend to form platelets at all, they have quasi-cubic crystals.
Yet they are typical oldfashioned semiconductors that can be used for rectification.
This seems to indicate that the materials John sais to use are very unsuited for any Casimir
platelet related mechanism, but very suited for simple rectification of ambient charges.
It would seem that is themore important part of the story, and that Hutchison just throws
the Casimir effect in there with his list of ambient energy sources (like gravitational fluctuations,
attraction by the moon, etc) just to indicate that there's more between heaven and earth than
nuclear power plants and solar power. ;)

Anyway, the only method to harness ZPE by utilising the Casimir effect that I know of
being documented is the one by Mead and Nachamkin where they suggest using a nanoscale
antenna with rectifier between two microspheres (nanospheres?). Here's a link to
Beardens story on it: http://www.cheniere.org/references/zpepatent.htm
I have tried to find the picture but can't find it right now. It is in Beardens book too, if you
have that.
Using tiny grains of semiconductor material and attempting to control their spread and
interconnectivity by applying the right polarising voltages during curing is a viable method
to produce a similar internal structure with tiny antenna-like branches as well as a large
number of rectifying junctions, in my current opinion. This seems to be why Hutchison
uses crushed semiconductor crystals in his Cells, and this is in line with the approaches
I and some other have thought up. Besides, that approach seems to remain valid even if
the entire idea of using the Casimir effect turns out to be humbug: the branched structure
and the multiple rectifying antenna branches should still "collect" any charge fluctuations.

Anyway, so far for my current thoughts on the Casimir part of the story. :)

As for what's happening on my end, I'm working on a mold to attempt a flat plate version
of my ceramic Cells. This is more difficult than I thought, and I'm not even sure this
version will work. But that's taking quite some time.

I have been considering several other builds using various materials. Like I usually am. ;)
Have not put much time into the MAP-related materials I mentioned before.
Did have another look at the titanates and in particular Barium Titanate as that seems
to be potentially interesting, and its close cousins that can meld into the same
crystalline structure. I have some of them so I could try them... But they need higher
temperatures so I am not entirely sure yet.
Another idea I have been toying with is to mix the dry powder components of several
elements to get a mixture not dissimilar to that of the superconductive lathanium oxide
copper arsenide but different, more towards a semiconductive compound, and especially
with more sensitive intrinsic semiconductors mixed in, and finally bake that into a wafer
at something near 1500 degrees. But so far I have only been doing comparative analyses of
different hypothetical mixes and the known lathanide conductor compounds, so it's only
theoretical so far.

And I've been working on a new desk-toy idea which isn't working yet and may in fact never
work as intended, but would be quite cool and self-powering. Or at least, not powered off
the grid. ;) But that has absolutely nothing to do with this stuff so just forget I mentioned it. ;)

@Ian: G'day mate! ;D
Hey I like that alternative source of silicon of yours. ;)
As for the honeycomb structure and the decreased weight, it is very likely that you ended up
with a lot of hydrogen gas in the mix... After all, you mix gallium and aluminium and water,
and the aluminium will oxidise its outer monoatomic layer, the gallium will creep over it dragging
fresh aluminium atoms with it, and those will oxidise again, over and over untill all the aluminium
has oxidised into alumina and hydrogen gas, mixed with gallium. If too little water is present,
aluminium may form aluminium hydroxide which is slightly different. Both are fairly light materials anyway.
So my first guess would be that you've now got a honeycomb structure of porous alumina with
perhaps some additional honeycomb effect from the hydrogen bubbles.
Do you get the white-grey-ish "snot" on the aluminium tube?
My Quirk is still "snotting" away... Damn stuff doesn't want to solidify at all. I am considering
"feeding" it some aluminium powder... What do you think? Should I maybe spice it up with
a little copper powder? Or iron filings? ;D
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: sutra on September 15, 2008, 10:11:50 PM
HI GUYS,

I saw you where talking about Vacuum within the matrix to induce Casimir effect.....

How inspiring.......did you think that molecules contains mostly VACUUM? How about building a molecule ( a crystal) that have conductive atoms like iron, lead, etc, in a lattice that also allow Casimir drag?

....Still thinking and... reading you.....

Cheers

Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: sutra on September 15, 2008, 10:20:59 PM
here something interesting:

citation from the following web site: http://www.answers.com/topic/crystal
about melting a crystal reaching the "nematic" condition, in our case the Rochelle Salt one.....

"A liquid crystal is a material which is intermediate in structure between a liquid and a solid. Liquid crystals usually flow like liquids but have some degree of internal order. They are generally composed of rodlike organic molecules, although in some cases they are composed of disklike molecules."
Cool
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: sutra on September 15, 2008, 10:44:20 PM
Could Graphite be useful to organize the layers of the nematic crystal?

check this page out....http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=20275193
and this http://pubs.acs.org/cgi-bin/abstract.cgi/nalefd/2002/2/i11/abs/nl025694j.html

....and....this: http://www.lci.kent.edu/PI/Jakli/Pics/Presentations/2005/Halevi70%20Puebla%202005.pdf
I think I've been inspired....


Cheers
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: JRowe on September 16, 2008, 12:10:54 AM
I think that what we need to do, in order to guide experimentation, is to create a hypothesis that is testable. It may speed things up, and it may codify results in a way that leads to refinement or even branching out of workable concepts. I just bought some Alunite crystals, which I'll be using for an Alum matrix. I want to learn as much as I can, first, and then define my hypothesis very concretely.

I'd like to ask some other people to delineate the necessary conditions for the Casimir Effect.

In my understanding, it requires two uncharged metal plates with a vacuum between them. The larger the surface area, and the smaller the distance between the plates, the greater the Casimir force. There must be no external electromagnetic field.

Try testing your crystals inside a Faraday cage. This eliminates potential energy harvesting from EM sources, as well as permitting the Casimir effect.

I'd also like to ask if you guys have any links to sites describing crystal growth at the molecular level.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: BRAHMA on September 24, 2008, 04:20:20 AM
John Hutchinson now has his own youtube account and has been uploading a bunch of videos.  his latest few additions are about the crystal power cell.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwI_QKX6kV0

Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Pirate88179 on September 24, 2008, 04:41:33 AM
Thanks for the heads up.  I am not sure if he really told us any thing more but it was good to see it.

Bill
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: triffid on September 24, 2008, 10:13:33 PM
Aluminum foil completely wrapped around a glass jar makes a good cheap faraday cage.Just put your cell phone (turned on ),then call yourself.No signal gets in to ring your cellphone.So you just get your voicemail.Triffid
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: jeff0516161 on September 24, 2008, 10:58:25 PM
LOL! LOL! I just tried that and my cell phone still rang. Was this a joke?
Now I'm wearing the tin foil as a hat.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: jeff0516161 on September 24, 2008, 11:01:33 PM
I don't think John H's crystal battery actually works. I think its a scam.
My thoughts are if this kind of battery works, it will work w/o applying any voltage to it.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: triffid on September 25, 2008, 08:56:44 PM
It was not meant as a joke I did try that with my phone and it never rang.I have a samsung with AT&T.What do you have ?Triffid
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: jeff0516161 on September 25, 2008, 09:14:25 PM
It was not meant as a joke I did try that with my phone and it never rang.I have a samsung with AT&T.What do you have ?Triffid


I have a HTC Touch w/ Sprint service... its CDMA.

Do you have to have glass all the way around it? I used a regular drinking glass, put my phone in it then covered it completely with tin foil.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: triffid on September 26, 2008, 08:46:54 PM
I had it competely in a glass and regular aluminum foil wrapped all the way around the sides and wrapped the top to look like a hersheys candy kiss.It was part of an experiment from u-tube"The amazing scottish antigravity machine".The one on u-tube had the cell phone ringing and the entire thing floated.I spent a good two months getting the materials together only to not have it work.I was so mad at whoever posted that hoax on u-tube.Triffid
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: jeff0516161 on September 26, 2008, 09:44:32 PM
Don't feel bad.... I fell for the HHO used w/ your car scam.
Trust me, I thoroughly tested this, so to all if you are thinking about it...don't waste your time!
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on September 27, 2008, 12:40:16 AM
G'day all,

@triffid: Never mind mate, there will be other hoaxes you can experiment with.  ;D ;D

@All:
           I've viewed the latest JH vids (thanks BRAHMA for the link) and I agree with Bill, there is not alot there we didn't already know. I seem to remember seeing most of it in text form some time back anyway.
One thing I did find interesting was the first reference ( coming from the JH blurb) about cell reversal.
Hey, nothing new there, hands up all those here who have observed the same phonomenon in their cells. And who is that idiot that JH sent his cells to for testing? C'mon John, send me a couple of cells and I'll give them a real test. ;D

As promised, here are some test results you may find interesting.
On 15th Sept I built Cell 16. This was one of the first cells to use crushed silcon solar cell as one of the ingredients.
After 12hrs of ES polarization it's O/C voltage was 0.89V.
Over the next 2 days the cells output was intermittently disharged into a 55 Farad supercap.
This was achieved by using a 555 timer circuit and a relay. The cell was shorted to the cap for 7 seconds and then allowed to recover for 39 seconds.

Start test:  17/9/08  09:45:00          Vcap = 1.0mV
End  test:  19/9/08  09:30:00           Vcap = 0.262V

After the cyclic load test there was 14.41 Coulombs of charge in the cap which also means that if the cap was discharged in 1 second it would deliver 14.41 Amps.
The cell was removed from the test rig and after 40 minutes it's o/c voltage had increased to 1.015V.
I have found that some cells get stronger when you load them.
As of today ( 27/9/08) the cells voltage is 1.030V.

Using a cell I made a few days ago, incorporating some foam, the cap reached a voltage of 0.72V in a 12 hour test period. That equates to  39.6 Coulombs of charge. The cell is pumping away still as I write this. I'll keep you posted on that one.

Thats about it for now, I hope the above info will be of use to you.

Catch you later

Ian  ;D

Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: triffid on October 05, 2008, 10:33:54 PM
Thanks guys for the moral support.I was glad to do the experimenting that lead to me realizing it was a hoax.I did feel rather taken in by by it.But discovering the truth is what its really all about.Just like the HHO thing,
dumping 12 volts into a single cell is always wasteful of energy(the wasted energy turns into heat).It does take more energy than what it gives out(or back).But I wouldn't know that if I hadn't been (and others like me)experimenting.Brute force electrolysis of water is a dead horse.But another form of electrolysis may not be.triffid
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: triffid on October 08, 2008, 06:30:16 PM
I put together a crytal radio set from radio shack and got .04 volts with my voltmeter from the output.Triffid
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: triffid on October 08, 2008, 06:32:24 PM
Sorry I should proofread better,thats a crystal radio set I measured .04 volts from.Triffid
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on October 09, 2008, 01:19:36 PM
Yeah, that sounds about right for the voltage of a simple
crystal radio... What diode are you using? A germanium one,
most likely, but there's different types still...
You might try adding a "Joule Thief" style enhancement to the
crystal radio circuit, see if you can increase effective output a little...
Or at least get more effective LED light out of the same output...
But that's just an idea. ;)


As for my experiments, I have put my Hutchison Cells based on
Rochelle Salt etc on hold indefinately for lack of encouraging output
measurements. John H also refuses to reply to my emails, as
usual, so there's no advice from his side. I've had enough of that now;
JH says "I can make fire, and here's how you do it", so we study his
videos and texts, and we follow his instructions to the letter... and we
don't get fire. Then we contact him and ask for his advice, and radio
silence occurs.

So I'm back to my own research and that related to mr Reid's experiments.
Have been looking at powder mixes for baking at high temperatures,
specifically in the Cuprates- corner of the field (fyi, this is a more common name
for the new "room temperature" superconductors).
Interestingly, this borders the 'conductive ceramics' corner of the field, which
partially borders the field concerning material composition of certain pyroelectric
minerals, and at one corner even touches the field of vitreous materials (glass-
like "solid liquid" crystal matrices).
Just as the superconductivity effect appears to be the result of peculiar phonon
overlap and exchange due to the specific internal layer structure of the Cuprates,
where the placement and pattern of the atoms results in this remarkable "high
temperature" superconductivity effect, I strongly suspect it is possible to produce
a material where the specific placement, pattern, and types of atoms result in
one-directional room temperature conductivity, combined with thermal noise
rectification.
But I'm still working on it. ;)

 
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: sutra on October 09, 2008, 02:26:47 PM
HI guys,
I'm also still on the issue but before building another cell, I'm trying to produce 20 KV DC at about 20KHz signal to "pole" the cell material.

I've found in internet that in the pizoelectric devices production, to "align" the piezoelctric crystal they submit the materials at such voltages for few hours during hardening.
My latest cell included also some graphite in the mix with a total components weight of 10Gr, it outputs a mere 30-150 mV (depending very much on the temperature thanks to the tourmaline) since a month even if kept shorted or connected to a resistor.

I'll keep you updated for future "discoveries", keep up the good job.

Cheers,

Sutra
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Pirate88179 on October 09, 2008, 05:14:54 PM
@ Koen1:

Here is a thought.  Why not create an e-mail account in the name of Paris Hilton..(like on hotmail, yahoo, etc.)..e-mail Hutch.....and after a little small talk, ask detailed info about his cell?  You never know, he might respond to that.... ha ha.

Sorry, could not help myself from suggesting this.

Bill
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on October 09, 2008, 07:13:39 PM
G'day all,

@Bill,   On yer mate  ;D    might just work. ;)

@Koen,  I tend to agree, unless there is a specific ratio we are missing, the rochelle salt cells are disapointing. I've been tweaking the formulas of my more successful cells and I think I've come to a dead end. Still getting good voltages though.
At the end of the day it will most likely be a ceramic material that give the best results so start warming up that oven.  ;D

@sutra, What advantage do see using a 20kHz high voltage pulse as opposed to DC voltage. It would be interesting to see the results of 2 identical cells, one polarized with DC and the other with 20kHz. Also is there a reason for choosing 20kHz.

I've managed to upgrade my polarizing voltage from 2.5kV to 6.9kV. I'll have some test results next week.

Keep up the good work guys

catch you later

Ian

Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: jeanna on October 09, 2008, 10:39:05 PM
Nice avatar, Ian

jeanna
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: sutra on October 12, 2008, 10:50:08 PM
Hi there,
there is a study on the poling characteristics of the rochelle salt that suggest a better polarisation between 2 KHz to 20KHz. Hutchinson himself to polarizing his cells mentioned high voltage and a "very clean signal". I'm building something to drive a car ignition coil to push voltage to a 20 KVDC continuous at 20KHz frequency.
I really think that more than the components ratios that can be figured out with different trials, I think that to make the cells give off some usable output, we have to work on serious polarization.

Some websites about piezoelectric materials production talk about the application of up to 50 KVDC per square centimeter to pole properly their piezo actuators.

If you want, I can give you the website address of the friend from which I get electronic developing plans that really work and a very good assistance.


Cheers to all
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on October 13, 2008, 02:29:33 PM
Yeah, well... Hutchison has said several different things...
In most of his text references he simply says to use high voltage DC during
the solidification phase. In his "Invent this!" tv footage he said high voltage DC
again. In the radio interview in which Feynman managed to ask a few questions,
he was even asked if it needed to be pulsed or continuous, and then he
first seemed to indicate he used high volage pulses, but then a couple
of minutes later he was adamant that it needs to be clean DC again.

In general he has talked about using hV DC quite often and only now and then
said something different...
But I don't recall him giving any info about frequencies used... So I never thought
and still don't think he's using any frequencies, I think he's using simple
hV DC, straight.

Another thing... You're talking about using a spark plug to generate 20 KV DC,
continuous, yet not continuous at the same time, since you're using 20 KHz...
How do you have a continuous direct current if you're pulsing it? Then it's not
continuous anymore, is it?
Seems to me there's a very clear difference between continuous current,
and pulses of direct current.

Aside from that, do you have, or perhaps you have a link or something, an explanation
as to why pulsed DC would have a better effect on the polarisation?
I've tried to come up with a good theoretical explanation as to why this would be,
and although I have a few ideas that might explain it to a degree, it still seems
much more sensible that polarisation would work better using a continuous DC
and not using pulses...
Is the pulsing not simply used to limit the total energy use for polarisation?
(As in pulsing hV DC every x milliseconds costs less energy than actually running
the same hV DC continually.) I'm just wondering...
After all, it seems a little bit like saying that pushing the gas pedal every second
will make the car speed up more than just keeping it floored... ;) See what I'm
saying?

Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on October 14, 2008, 02:38:50 AM
G'day all,

As far as the polarization issue goes I'm of the opinion that we need in the range of 20kV to 50kV DC before we start seeing a true crystal battery effect. Preferably 100kV DC. T T Brown used such high voltages as did JH. There is a case however ,I think, for pulsed HVDC. When curing a cell it may be advantagous to start off with pulsed HVDC then to finish it off with straight DC. I am of course talking about Electrostactic Polarization, that is a high tension electric field across the cell and not a current.

Since I've been using ES polarization none of my cell have gone the a reversal stage and each have shown slightly higher current output.

At the moment I'm designing a thinner cell to take advantage of the voltage gradient that I have available, which is 6-7kV. I'll be rolling that one out shortly.

@sutra: If you feel that pulsed polarization may work the please go ahead and try it. Every experiment in this field is valuable. The results you get may be very valuable to us all.  :)

@Koen1: I take it theres still no news from you know who?  ;)

Ok you mottley crew, back to work. Theres 50 million toys that need batteries for Christmas. Now get to it.  ;D ;D ;D

Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: AbbaRue on October 14, 2008, 08:51:27 AM
I can see a great difference between using a HVDC current and a HV static field.
The HVDC will do a lot of arcing inside the cell causing heating and possible separation of elements.
Eg. Salt will separate into sodium and chlorine.  I don't think this is what we want.
Whereas a good HV static charge could cause as electret to form on cooling.
I think the electret concept is what we are looking for here.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on October 14, 2008, 04:25:48 PM
G'day all,

As far as the polarization issue goes I'm of the opinion that we need in the range of 20kV to 50kV DC before we start seeing a true crystal battery effect. Preferably 100kV DC. T T Brown used such high voltages as did JH. There is a case however ,I think, for pulsed HVDC. When curing a cell it may be advantagous to start off with pulsed HVDC then to finish it off with straight DC. I am of course talking about Electrostactic Polarization, that is a high tension electric field across the cell and not a current.
Yes, we theorised that that would probably be the case, and clearly it is. Seems it was a good idea to try electrostatic instead of direct polarisation eh? :)

(@AbbaRue: indeed, the difference between electrostatic - and direct current polarisation is obvious, you are entirely correct about that. Direct application of
DC will cause elecrons to be injected into the Cell material, flow through it, and then exit it, causing not just seperation of different valence atoms, but also
ion migration and electron exchange by ionic "shuttling" of charge. This can cause constant movement of the charge carriers which can and very often does
disrupt the formation of desired internal structures. Electrostatic polarisation will not do this, no additional electrons are injected nor pass through the material,
it is the atoms of which the material is composed that act as the charged particles and they seperate according to the electrostatic field, and should mostly
stay "locked" in that position as the static charge is maintained and the material solidifies. And that results in ordered, polarised dielectric material, a.k.a.
Electrets. Damn am I happy to have people like you in our group here, who understand what's going on. :) )

I can imagine how pulsed hV might be advantageous in generating a nice even "spread" of the dopant atoms in just about any material we want to polarise,
but I still have some trouble getting a clear picture of how it would have advantages when used with Rochelle Salt for example...
If you or anyone else could clear this up I would be grateful. :)

Quote
Since I've been using ES polarization none of my cell have gone the a reversal stage and each have shown slightly higher current output.

Well in my experiments the output is not really terribly much higher, that increase seems marginal at best, but indeed the reversal effect seems to
disappear. It should, and it does. Nice. :) And also cool that we figured this out while JH apparently still has the reversal effect... hehe ;D

Quote
At the moment I'm designing a thinner cell to take advantage of the voltage gradient that I have available, which is 6-7kV. I'll be rolling that one out shortly.
Great stuff. In relation to a totally different experiment I've been planning I was considering to buy a small plasma generator which should also be able to produce
into the several kilovolts DC, and I am increasingly tempted to go ahead with the purchase... Despite the financial troubles everywhere... ;)

Quote
@sutra: If you feel that pulsed polarization may work the please go ahead and try it. Every experiment in this field is valuable. The results you get may be very valuable to us all.  :)
Oh yes, Sutra, please don't think that I mean to keep you from using pulsed DC eh, I'm just saying that I presently don't have a clear picture of how that
would add anything, but I am only human and like Ian says every experiment in our field here is valuable, so please do try it and please do post your
results! :D

Quote
@Koen1: I take it theres still no news from you know who?  ;)
Nope, as usual you know who is incommunicado. Sure hope he's getting some
good info from Paris eh? ;D

Quote
Ok you mottley crew, back to work. Theres 50 million toys that need batteries for Christmas. Now get to it.  ;D ;D ;D
LOL ;D
Well I'm not sure if we can make all of those 50 million toys batteryless, but we can at least try :D
Just to cut some corners I'm now working on several formulas for artificial tourmaline, and should be able to start
baking experiments in a month. Aiming for 1mm thick slices, but with baking you're never very sure eh. ;)
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: sutra on October 14, 2008, 05:19:11 PM
hi guys,

YES, is a matter of experimenting as soon as I finish with the building of my 20KVDC "pump" I'll try to submit the cell to some electroshock.
I know, probably I'll end up with free chlorine  fuming out the thing but anywhere I checked, the piezoelectric materials are exposed to direct high voltages,

I've seen an article of early age research on Rochelle Salt frequency response but I have to find that out again in the net, meanwhile, here is some good reading about piezoelectiricy and the manufactoring of piezo ceramics and actuators.

http://www.morganelectroceramics.com/pdfs/tp217.pdf
http://www.americanpiezo.com/piezo_theory/index.html
http://www.physikinstrumente.com/en/products/prdetail.php?sortnr=400600.20
http://www.integritytechnology.net/Resonators/Resonator-Technote-1.pdf
http://aml.seas.ucla.edu/research/areas/piezoelectric/marie/Piezoelectric%20overview%20v2005.pdf
http://www.morganelectroceramics.com/pdfs/tp217.pdf
http://books.google.it/books?id=rcrGlrguj1YC&pg=PA2095&lpg=PA2095&dq=poling+treatment+rochelle+salt&source=web&ots=mHPP446b6_&sig=JlkFOYHTXerNhvs7mImVfR_V-hc&hl=it&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPA2096,M1
http://www.answers.com/topic/piezoelectricity
http://www.resonancepub.com/piezoele.htm

Pulsed electricity could reduce electro dissociation of the substances involved.


Cheers
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Anothertruthfinder on October 14, 2008, 11:07:54 PM
 Hi all  ;D, bit of a newbie here but ive been following many different fe/ae threads and thought i'd let everyone know of my dabblings in this particular thread, i apologize if this unoriginal or not really any use to anyone but i thought the concept made me prick my ears up a little hehe
i made a series array of 7 little cells - made from - here's the crazy part, 'catsan' cat litter, yes cat litter! a little bicarbonate of soda and tap water mixed into a smooth paste (crushing up the litter in a bag with a hammer beforehand sorry) into some empty small round glass nightlights (just over an inch tall), i put a half inch strip of aluminium running down the side of it leaving a long top taper for contacting and i cut a 3mm thick 'rod' of copper again leaving room to contact at the ends outside the glass. The copper is as you might have guessed + and the alu -.

results
per cell - .56/.65 volts
series array - 4.07 volts (fluctuant .05 -+) open circuit voltage
current - 2-12 ma
its currently lighting an led near full brightness (4hrs) - going to leave it going constantly and let you all know the results
any info i will try and give, i will try and give!



p.s. i'm aka - eel
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on October 15, 2008, 12:23:11 AM
G'day all,

@Anothertruthfinder:  Excellent work there dude, I mean, having a nickname of eel with sure save us some typing.  ;D

Welcome aboard and thanks for your post. You will find in earlier posts in this thread that kitty litter was also trialled and then refined to bentonite clay. My results using the clay were pretty dismal but then again I did not use bicarb in the mix.
Of interest would be the voltage and current of your cells when they are totally dry. You might find the current drops faster than the stockmarket. ;D

Also, why did you decide to use kitty litter?

Anyway as I said, welcome and any input will be greatly recieved.

regards  Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: jeanna on October 15, 2008, 02:27:26 AM
Hi all  ;D, bit of a newbie here but ive been following many different fe/ae threads and thought i'd let everyone know of my dabblings in this particular thread,

p.s. i'm aka - eel
Welcome and
Thanks ATF eel,

I was thinking of retrying this only to put a load onto it to see if that helps. I didn't realize the importance of putting the load to it until recently.

I also used kaolin clay once from the health food store and then I bought the kitty litter. I also had to hammer it to powder it.  ;D lotsa fun  ;D

I used it exactly as you did with the pure stuff. (I used sodium carbonate not bicarbonate on all of them also.)

It turned into a very fine powder. In fact they all did.

Later with the kitty litter, I added sand then sand and cement (clinker)

It is such an interesting thing to do, but, mine all ate the alu terminals before they were dry.

My first suggestion therefore is to choose a different metal for your alu terminal.
(I am not suggesting that you take this apart. )

I am very curious. As I said, I never put a load on any of mine. I just recently learned that this is likely to enhance the result.

thank you,

jeanna
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on October 15, 2008, 10:23:38 AM
Yes, welcome ATF / Eel :D

It's always nice to have more people in our select club of
experimenters! ;D

As Ian already mentioned, your success with kitty litter is not all that
surprising.
But it is great to see that you managed to make a working array
of bentonite-family Cells! :D
Ok, output is still very low hey, but that's a thing we're all still working on,
so you're right up there with the rest of us! ;D
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: sutra on October 20, 2008, 12:47:30 PM
Hi guys,
have a look at my new picture.....now I have the POWER.....

I still have to make it DC and...by the way, does anyone have an idea to measure electricity over 20KV without spending a million for a sci-fi meter?

Enjoy it,

Ciao
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: jeanna on October 20, 2008, 07:15:06 PM
Nice pic Sutra!,

LOL sci-fi meter  ;D ;D

I think the estimate way is to measure the length.

There is a technicality that these measurements are made on a sphere to sphere or a rounded rod to rounded where the diameter of the sphere is larger than the spark produced. This is so no corona escapes from a point.

With that behind you,  8)

these are for rods:

20 kv = 0.23 inches spark length
25 kv = 0.288
30 kv = 0.355 (=1 cm?)
35 kv = 0.43 inches
40 kv = 0.52 inches
45 kv = 0.625 inches
50 kv = 0.75 inches
55 kv = 0.9 inches
60 kv = 1.12 inches

I took this from A. D. Moore's Electrostatics book.

I hope this helps,

jeanna
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: sutra on October 20, 2008, 07:34:18 PM
HI Jenna,

I'm surprised that the gradings of POWER = SIZE are coming to me from a girl..... ;D

..aren' t girls always repeating that size doesn't matter??? ???  ;D

Anyhow, I thank you very much for the hint, I'll try to measure the spark gap.


For anyone interested in the plans, please visit this web-site: it is packed of cool electronic stuff

http://www3.telus.net/chemelec/Projects/Projects.htm

Ciao
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: sutra on October 20, 2008, 08:38:45 PM
So, the maximum spark gap is 1.5 cm = 0,59 " and following the conversion chart kindly indicated by Jenna, it should be equal to an output of 42.8 KV: not too bad from an old scrapped Fiat 500 ignition Coil.

I'll try to pole my latest crystal cell with this high Voltage and I'll let you know the results.

Cheers

 
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: sutra on October 20, 2008, 09:11:51 PM
HI guys,
I've melted the mix in the cell once more and submitted to high voltage as shown in the picture while hardening.

The cell's output didn't increase dramaticaly but now I have a pressure of 0,06 mA in stead of nothing at all. The voltage is a pityful 0,065 V but the mix is only 10 gr in total. As you can see, the voltage have been submitted with a gap and no temperature increase have been detected nor other unusual behaviours.. Do you have any suggestion?
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: jeanna on October 20, 2008, 11:00:29 PM


I'm surprised that the gradings of POWER = SIZE are coming to me from a girl..... ;D


 ;D ;D ;D LOL Sutra

Jeanna
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on October 20, 2008, 11:53:08 PM
G'day all,

@sutra: Well done mate thats a good effort. I think you should try and sell it back to Fiat as a modification.  ;D  3 burnt and fused fingers = 75kV.
Anyway you can learn alot from girls, and as far as size, well they learn alot from me. ;D ;D ;D

All you need now is an EHT rectifier.

Keep up the good work, and that goes for the girls too  ;D

Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on October 21, 2008, 12:52:14 AM
Hehehe :D
Hi guys!

Nice going there Sutra! Nice pics too ;)
How exactly did you apply the voltage? Did you apply it directly, to the
inner and outer electrodes of the cell? Or electrostatically, by
wrapping an isolator around the cell and a conductor around that. etc?
(there's one variation you might want to try?)

And of course all praise to Jeanna for such a sudden jolt ;)
of very helpfull information on sparks! ;D

As for myself, I'm awaiting delivery of a few powders so I can finally test
my artificial tourmaline "recipe". Just have to find the right temperature,
which may be difficult... But hey, I suppose it's a bit like baking
a cake when you don;t know the oven settings... you get it wrong the
first time, probably the second, but by the third time you should be
getting a good idea of what the right temperature is to make your cake
bake just right... :) ...right? ;)

Good luck experimenting, everybody! :D
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: sutra on October 21, 2008, 10:27:19 AM
@ Koen1,
The current have been applied directly as you can see in the picture.
I think that the option you are suggesting since some time now of submitting the cell to indirect potential is interesting and I was wondering if, with the high voltage I can reach, it would be enough just connecting the output of the coil to the positive electrode of the cell: in this way, the cell should "feel" the potential without wrapping everything in different layers of material (not so easy to do due to the temperature of the cell).

@ all
as an update:

After 2 hours of "aging" the cell was pumping 0,150 V at 0.6 mA (0,080 V increase)
After 10 hours, the cell is now reversed and remarkably heat and mechanical shock sensitive.
I put the cell in the freezer to see what happens to the voltage.

P.S.: HIGH VOLTAGE IS FUN !!!
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on October 21, 2008, 04:28:08 PM
@ Koen1,
The current have been applied directly as you can see in the picture.
Ok, I thought so, but you might already have tried it electrostatically as well eh ;)
Quote
I think that the option you are suggesting since some time now of submitting the cell to indirect potential is interesting and I was wondering if, with the high voltage I can reach, it would be enough just connecting the output of the coil to the positive electrode of the cell: in this way, the cell should "feel" the potential without wrapping everything in different layers of material (not so easy to do due to the temperature of the cell).
Good point. I thought about this when I first pondered the differences between electrostatic and electrodynamic polarisation, and this is sort of the
conclusion I still adhere to: If we were to connect a direct current feed to either the inner elecrode (the rod, and in most Al-tube based cells the positive electrode)
or the outer electrode (the Al tube itself, usually negative), and leave the other Cell electrode disconnected, there should indeed still be a mostly electrostatic
polarisation effect. But if we feed hV DC into the central rod, even though that should indeed cause negative particles to move away from the rod and cause
positive particles to move toward the rod and that clearly is a way to polarise the material, there is a chance that charges conducted through the cell material
accumulate at the outer electrode and that part of the accumulated charge dissipates into the air... I mention this because I recall from the classic Leyden Jar
capacitor (sealed glass tube with metal layer on the inside and one on the outside, wires to the layers, charges fed to the wires) that it had this typical characteristic
of storing charge only when the negative charge was applied to the inner plate, and not storing but rather dissipating the negative charge when it was applied
to the outer plate. The reason was much later found to be related to photovoltaics as well as charge absorption by air, basically whatever excites the electrons
on the outer plate causes them to "jump" off into the air, but when sealed inside the glass tube they can't go anywhere except for the wire. So I guess I'm saying
that there may be a DC component in this form of "static" polarisation.
In any case, it is mainly for this reason that I prefer the other method of wrapping isolator and conductor layers around the outer electrode.
That way, we can do something very similar, yet make sure that "Leyden Jar dissipation effect" does not occur, or at least, not in the cell
itself. By wrapping the tube in these two layers, the entire outer tube is turned into a capacitor, and the static charge on it can be induced
without adding or removing any charges to or from the Cell, while we can be fairly sure that there is no DC component, no matter how small.
You could of course also connect a capacitor to your hV cathode, and connect the cap's secondary plate to the Cell electrode you want to
give the strong positive charge, and similarly connect another cap to your hV anode, and connect that secondary to the other Cell electrode
to give it negative charge. Since the caps secondary plates must now "pull" these charges from inside the Cell, the cell should polarise accordingly.

Hope this is helpfull? :)

Quote
P.S.: HIGH VOLTAGE IS FUN !!!
:D ;D LOL yeah it is isn't it? Just watch out you don't zap your finger too often eh. ;) ;D

@all: don't know if you guys noticed, but that French guy who kept going on and on
about the Electrinium pdf is now reinventing the wheel in a new Electrinium thread
on this forum. It is horrible to see how many people actually seriously discuss that
Electrinium thing... And also to see how little they know about anything...
They are moving through phases that they could have skipped if they'd just read
what we have been posting the past year or two: they've now superficially grazed
the subject of polarisation and have finally reached the point where they've
discovered there is such a thing as the Electret, and are now superficially
guesstimating how one could be made and how much that would look like
an Electrinium unit. It's sort of the Crystal Cell Thread for Dummies. ;) :D
They have yet to figure out that there's much more to it than just polarising
materials, that that is not enough to produce strong currents.
Just thought I'd let you guys know.
Please don't stimulate them. ;)
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: jeanna on October 21, 2008, 08:01:07 PM
Hi all,

I heard myself suggesting magnetite again last night and I decided to go for it myself. You know, of course, no one else is going to do my experiment for me...  ;D
I just ordered 2 oz. to try this.

So, here is my idea and the reasoning behind it.

I will lay down a layer of magnetite on top of a prepared surface of sodium silicate (my new favorite). This will be on a small plate of some metal, perhaps steel or copper. I will not use Alu because sodium silicate turns Alu into H2 gas ( ;) )

Then I guess I will load it up with sparks from my wimhurst machine. I am very unsure about the wimhurst machine for doing this but it is the only apparatus I have for this...

Well, I may just put it in line with a battery to allign all the crystals magnetically, if that is possible.... again I am really unsure and unconvinced about this part.

Maybe I will even try a magnet for alignment...

With those concerns aside, this is my reasoning for my choice of materials and structure of the cell.

We are looking for a crystal that will continuously put out a voltage and current.

When we accomplish this feat I would expect that because of this current within the crystal that there will be a magnetic field associated with it.

So, my thinking is that the magnetite must already have a current in it and if I can align it coherently, the current may pass from one crystal to another from one end or terminal to the other.


I will also make this on a substrate of hide glue (my previous favorite) on an Aluminum plate. Hide glue is a protein gel. I guess being a gel puts it into the category of a protein polymer. (I am guessing here. I don't know if the term polymer is chemically correct here, but you know what I mean.)

This protein gel won't dissolve the Alu so this thing could be made on this cheaper metal. Hide glue does get brittle, however, and when it is dry it may form cracks. We'll see.

OK. now, to wait for the magnetite.  (mmm this gives me time to clean up the kitchen - er - lab from the Alu experiments of last year.)

jeanna
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: sutra on October 21, 2008, 09:56:15 PM
Hi all,
A short update on my cell:

freezed for 5 hrs, voltage showed 0,000 V, after a while, the meter started  measuring some minus Voltage (polarity inversion) down to - 0,060 V, after 5 hours, the cell pumps - 0,013 V but the voltage rises if exposed to the heat of the hands and reaches up to + 0,020 V reacting to pressure on the central elecrode reaching around + 0.040 V. left alone drops again to the initial voltage.

Conclusions: I guess the polarization is somehow better than the one achieved with low voltages but not perfect and I really think that the components ratio and composition must be wrong. I'll give the mix another shot with HV DC this time...I lately got some goodies...first directly then as suggested by Koen1.

Does any of you have an idea of a probable practical application for the cell as is?

@ Jeanna

your procedure sounds complicated like a french cake recipe.....I wonder if I would ever want ti try one of your silica-magna-cakes...... ;D
jokes apart, I'm curious to know the outcome...interesting. ;)

Cheers
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on October 22, 2008, 02:07:21 PM
@Sutra: well, you could use it as a low energy electret already...
Just like the kitty litter cells, you could connect them to capacitors
via the right diodes, and wire up a couple of such cells, and the
accumulated charge on the capacitor can then be used as output
(either by periodic discharge or by controlled low current discharge,
using a simply resistor, or by more complex means).

Our "collegue" Marcus Reid showed me a small LCD clock
that he's had running for some time now, which is powered directly
from the output of 3 small Cells. I seem to recall they were
simply wired in series.
But the "classic" way in which electrets and Browns petroelectric
units were wired was by simply using diodes suited to the voltage
produced by the cells, and then wiring them to a capacitor via
those diodes, then using the charge on the cap for output.
So that's something you might try?

@Jeanna: You ordered Magnetite? Would it not have been easier
to just take FeO (black) and Fe2O3 (brown to red, "rust coloured" iron oxide)
and mix them together?
(Magnetite = Fe3O4 = FeO+Fe2O3 = Wurtzite + Hematite =
"Iron Black powder" + "Iron Red powder")
Well, ok, perhaps not, if you don't have any of them lying around... ;)

May I ask what line of thought you are following, that you are planning
to make a silicate - magnetite "layer cake"? :)
I have used both FeO and Fe2O3, and mixes, in a few of my silicate
Cell experiments. My reasoning was that, if I could get the ferro-
and ferri-magnetic molecules to align and maintain the magnetic field
inside the Cell (by using a permanent magnet stuck to the bottom,
or around it, or both), these molecules and grains or magnetic material
should have circular electrical currents or at least charges moving in
circles, and addition of semiconductive material, dopant, and polarisation
might just produce a sort of semiconductive diode structure with constant
charge circulation in small local areas of the material, which with a lot
of luck might just be partially rectified by the p-n arranged semiconductor,
and produce measurable output at slightly higher amperage.
So far I haven't had much success, although one of such Cells which was
a hybrid between my basic silicate Cells and this concept and in which
I also used quite some Cobalt oxide has turned out to be just as good as,
or perhaps in some minute way marginally better even, than my best
conditioned silicate Cells. But then again, that Cell has only been taken
from the dryer box about 10 months ago, so I shouldn't get overexcited yet. ;)
It does look very cool blueish, with all that Cobalt in it.
So perhaps Cobalt blue powder is something you might want to try as well then,
as long as you're playing with magnetic powders? Ok, Cobalt is slightly
unhealthy (understatement!) so you must watch out not to accidentally
ingest some. But hey, you  shouldn't accidentally ingest any of that
silicate powder either, and that seems to pose little problem. ;)
You could try the other magnetic materials too, like Nickel, Palladium, etc?
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: jeanna on October 23, 2008, 09:34:10 PM
Koen,

Thanks for sharing all this history of your "magnetite" experiments.

 You may have saved me some time.

The magnetite I am getting is lodestone. It is magnetic in that it creates a magnetic field already. There are degrees of this and for my first order I just bought the normal quality. The guy says his normal quality is very good. I will see.

The first part of the thinking is the shape of the magnetite powder. It is octahedral. each piece looks like a double pyramid. I didn't mention that yesterday.

I was thinking of making a thin layer of magnetite on a thin layer of sodium silicate (semiconductor) on a square or round piece of stainless steel then also on copper.(2 cells to try) with some kind of central terminal.

I first thought of charging with a magnet also. But I didn't think that would  do anything because there is already a magnetic field. It might just align the thing magnetically, but then I would have just a magnet. So, that is why I thought I would spark it with the wimhurst machine. But I will try both.

There are ideas for terminals. I have not decided yet.

I think we have all noticed that the current in these cells moves radially. This means to me that a toroid shape is the full shape of the field/fields.

In a cell I made last spring, I wrapped Alu foil around the circumference. It was a good terminal for a while - until the Alu dissolved! But that cell had many terminals in it and this outside one plus any other was always better than any 2 from inside the cell.

That was a cell made in a plastic cream cheese tub. The diameter was 2 1/2", 7cm filled about 1", 3cm deep.

The tricky part of this is that if I use a metal plate (instead of a plastic cheese tub)  there needs to be a separation from the plate to the terminal, and that would add other factors like... Is this a capacitor now?... or is it a galvanic reaction now? It was a reason I used the plastic tub last year.

Maybe I should make one on a plastic cheese tub lid. hmm I think so.

OK now, that is 3 cells.  ;)

Now, it starts to get really wild, like, am I making a toroid of circulating magnetic field? and if so, can I make a transformer/filter to capture the current?  egads, it is too nuts.

I will just start simple and progress from there.

Thanks for getting me to express my thoughts.

---------

Cobalt sounds interesting. I wonder if I could get cobalt artists pigment?  When I awoke this morning I started thinking of looking for tourmaline dust or pyrite dust. Maybe they use this kind of dust for artists too. (I will let our friend Igor... er.. Ian do the grinding thing. Sutra as we know is sitting atop a pile of gems, so his gem polisher does this grinding trick for him.  ;D ;D)

I forgot to mention yesterday that I got some cream of tartar; so, I can now make some rochelle salt. But first, I will see what happens with the 3 ingredients I outlined, and go from there.



jeanna
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: sutra on October 24, 2008, 12:21:38 PM
@ Jenna
Yes, I'm sitting on a pile of gems and the little Sutra within me does the grinding.....for me gem dust is not a problem, it is a trouble...you should see my lab: a mission to keep it clean...luckly there is my wife....ihihihihihi.....just kidding....


@ all

Interesting news about my latest cell: it can FLY....

Yes, I wish.

The interesting thing about it is that the voltage increased slightly as yesterday I heat it up a little with my blow torch (probably as hot as 50° C) the voltage went up thanks to the "blue-green" tourmaline dust in it. Well, the increase of voltage is normal while heating the cell and was going back to the original output with the cooling, but it is intriguing that the cell is showing "memory" like behaviour the day after: today the output is back to the values reached while heating... 0,157V with an amperage of 0,026 mA.

I now heat it again reaching 0,3 V to see what happens.

If the fenomenon is stable and effective, by the end of the next year, I'll be able to power up the town of Rome with it....

Cheers
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on October 24, 2008, 01:51:54 PM
@Jeanna: Thanks for that nice look into your thought process there :)
I like it. I'm not sure what to make of the pyramid particles entirely,
but it still sounds interesting, and it's definately got some elements
in the equation that I hadn't incorporated in my own ideas about
the use of magnetic powders, so that's a refreshing take on the subject.
In my opinion. ;)

As for the pigment, Yes, you should be able to get Cobalt Blue pigment powder
at a good arts supply shop. I have found that such shops, if you find one that
really has a wide range of pigments for use in self-mixed paint, and/or similarly
a wide range of powders suitable for use in ceramics glazing and lustering,
often have a nice supply of usefull powders and do sell them in relatively small
amounts, which is just perfect for doing some experiments.
I may have mentioned it before, one of my favorite art supply shops carries a
nice range of painters pigments, and it is in fact the place where I got my
Cobalt Blue powder, as well as my Iron Black, Iron Red/brown, and some other
powders. Ok, I also got some of those same powders from other suppliers, but
the ones I got from the arts shop are of equally good quality.

@Sutra: Can you tell me the exact name of the type of blue-green Tourmaline
that you used here? For example, typically the all-green type of Tourmaline is
called Chromdravite, while the all-black type is called Schorl, and there's
quite a bunch of specific types...
I ask because I am currently, on a bit of a sideline which is slowly turning into
a parallel road ;), still looking into Tourmaline itself, and specifically the chemical
structures of the various types. I have sort of isolated the part of the chemical
strcture that determines much of the colour as well as the wavelengths to which
the specific Tourmalines are sensitive, so now I am studying the differences in these
crucial elements of the structure, in an attempt to determine which exact type
or subtype yields highest output in a nominally average temperature range.

There's some quite interesting analogies with biological photosynthesis, I realised
the other day, when I was trying to explain part of my Tourmaline fascination
to a friend, who is involved in biology and ecology.
The majority of plant photosynthesis on our planet uses green pigments (chlorophyl)
to absorb light energy, which is then used in an intricate chemically mediated
process which ultimately uses the energy to produce glucose from H2O and CO2.
A fact often underplayed in schools is that most of the light absorbed is in fact
red light, which incorporates best into the actual chemical photosynthetic
process, and that the other types of light are in fact in most plants "stepped down"
to the equivalent of, or even the exact type of, the ideal red light wavelength for
absorption by these red-light "transformer" molecules.
Ok, I realise this may sound like a bunch of biological mumbojumbo, but the
main point is: the green plants all around us actually get most of their energy
from absorbing red light.
Now back to Tourmaline. :)
Guess which colour of Tourmaline is generally considered (and tested) as the
most sensitive to red, infrared, and even deep-infrared light?
Yep, you guessed it: green. :)
So perhaps now you see why I am interested in the exact chemical structure or
name of your blue-green Tourmaline? I am trying to figure out where in the spectrum
of light its ideal absorption wavelengths lie, to see how sensitive it is to infrared
in comparison to certain other types.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: sutra on October 24, 2008, 02:21:22 PM
@ Koen1

Hi, tourmalines are the minerals that varies the most as concerning clour: from colorless (Acroite) to the Schorl, as you know.

from the point of view of light absorbtion wave lenght, of course a green mineral absorbs all the wavelenght except the green one and so on. So under that point of view, it all depends on what wavelength you want to absorb, to chose the right colour tourmaline.

The green variety is called VERDELITE and it contains bivalent iron and a bit of magnesium if yellowish, the blue ones are called INDICOLITES and the light blue from mainly Brasil is called PARAIBA (one of the most valuable) the blue ones contains Iron, Vanadium, and trivalent Chromium.
Verdelites and Indicolites are mined mostly in Namibia (where I lived for 4 years) but many of them are mined also in Nigeria, together with all the other colours.

I'm using some old mine reject from Namibia usable usually for tumbling grinding them at 600 mesh grit on diamond lap.

The specific one I've used for this last cell was Blue-Green but for next trials I want to experiment different mixes of rochelle salt with only one component at the time to understand the direct effects of each single ingredient: the variables are too many, the components are too many for a good experimenting.

Hoping to be useful....

Ciao

P.S. I heard that also Topaz is piezoelectric, perhaps I could try some into the mix.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on October 24, 2008, 03:09:32 PM
Sutra, thanks for that info.

It is interesting that you mention the Verdelite (sometimes called Verdilite) as typical green form.
Indeed, the most common green form of Tourmaline is Verdelite, nowadays.
But perhaps I wan't entirely clear...
I intend, of course, to make a Tourmaline that is extremely sensitive to ambient heat.
What with the global tempertures only increasing, and the largest part of our global
energy loss existing in the form of radiated heat losses, that seems like a large
energy supply just waiting to be tapped. Much more so than any of the visible colours
of light.
And so, I am trying to pinpoint the types that most effectively absorb and transduce
infrared and preferably the deep infrared. (= heat radiation)
I have found that it is difficult to dig up clear information on the exact wavelengths and
the chemical compositions, for some reason. If you have any good sources for this,
please share them as it would be most helpfull.
What I have managed to dig up is the repeated assertion that blue and green Tourmalines
are the types most sensitive to infrared, and I have been told that specifically Chromdravite
would be extremely sensitive to deep infrared. Chromdravite is also green, and the crucial
element in it is trivalent Chromium. (And yes, this is interesting, as ruby is nothing more
than aluminium oxide containing high levels of Chromium, and they are typically not green
at all, but rather red. Then again, Tourmaline does not normally contain much aluminium
at all, if any, so they're not really comparable.)
Some people have suggested that Vanadiumdravite may also be green and may also
be sensitive to infrared, but I cannot find much confirmation.

Now, some quick thinking suggests that Verdelite is in fact nothing more than a "hybrid"
of Chromdravite, Vanadiumdravite, and Schorl, containing near equal amounts of these
three trivalent elements Cromium, Vanadium, and Iron.
Do you agree with this assertion?

P.S. You lived in Namibia? I've done a 4x4 road trip through Nam some years ago!
It's a magnificent country. May I ask where you lived in Namibia? Was it near
Swakopmund, Walvisbaai, Windhoek, Luderitz? ;) :D
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: sutra on October 24, 2008, 07:39:43 PM
@ Koen1

Tourmalines are complex Aluminum Boro-Silicates in which can coexist or replace each other Sodium, Lithium, Potassium, Cesium, bivalent Iron, Magnesium, Calcium, Manganese, Aluminum, trivalent Iron, Chromium and Vanadium. All these components contributes to the different colours of the gem. There may be some OH ions that could be replaced by Floride, sometimes Titanium replace Silicium in the structure.
As you understand, all different kinds of tourmalines are, as you suggested, Hybrids of a very complex crystal species.

A crystal can have different colours : see "melon d'eau" Tourmalines or show very different tinges of colour observing them from different growth axis.

Heating the crystal can modfy the colouring, I'm used to lighten up the dark verdelites exposing the stones at temperatures within 450 and 650 °C.

It looks there are some study done on pyroelectricity but most of the stuff is on sale.
As for a research, you can see these:
http://scripts.iucr.org/cgi-bin/paper?S0021889879011869
http://www.geol.lsu.edu/henry/Research/tourmaline/bibliography/TourmalinePhysicalProperties.htm

As concerning Namibia,
Yes, is a wonderful country and I missed it a lot.
from 1998 to 2001 I had a restaurant in Windhoek called "PLANET ITALY" so, if you were around at that time, probably you eat my pizza.....

Cheers
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: jeanna on October 24, 2008, 08:32:28 PM
Hmm biology, now I feel more comfortable!   ;)

I dredged up my oldest biology textbook to prove to me that my memory is correct (yes, this time it is) that it is the Mg in the chlorophyll molecule that makes it do what it does.

So, I submit that those green tourmalines that are made with magnesium are perhaps the very ones to choose.

[the rest of the molecules that make up the family of chlorophylls are basically C,H,O, in various large chains.]

The other thing my eyes fell on while reading this was the mention that the blue-green algae make their energy from chlorophylls that are NOT contained in the chloroplast but in small things that they called stoma =?= little stones.

This means to me that it is not dependent on the structure and can occur in a mix. This gives encouragement if not credence to the notion of making an amorphous mixture of this stuff.

[I say this because I have seen that there is an assumption put out over and over that it is because of the cellular structure and the chloroplast structure that the energy is made.]

thank you,

jeanna
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on October 25, 2008, 03:41:16 PM
@Sutra: Yes, that all accords with the info I have gathered on Tourmaline.
It is nice to have a fellow Cell builder who has detailed knowledge of this,
at least it seems that everything I have come to conclude on the chemical
structures and relations to colour and wavelength does appear to be confirmed
by your info. And indeed, the phase space for Toumaline variation is quite large.
Thanks for the links, I shall study them in detail to see if there's anything I overlooked. :)

As for your pizza place, I only visited Windhoek in the period 2003-2005 and although
I did have pizza there, I don't recall where we got it. Was Mister Delivery. ;)
Anyway, if you were no longer there at the time, I can't have eaten your pizza... :(
;)
Still, it's cool to discover that you lived there for a while... Don't often meet people from Windhoek. :D

@Jeanna: hey now that's an interesting piece of info there, about the blue-green algea and their
photosynthesis "stones"... :D
I had already looked into the other photosynthetic "granules" found in plants... you know,
beside the chloroplasts that contain chlorophyl, there's chromoplasts which do not have
the green chlorophyl in them but rather red and yellow pigmented substances.
I even considered the cyanos for a while but I'm not very anxious to start messing around
with cyanide compounds just yet. ;)
As for the chloroplast structure, that does indeed seem to play a large role in the mechanism
by which the collected energy is transformed into ATP which in turn plays a large role
in the entire process of glucose formation. I have a SciAm around somewhere here in this mess
of mine that contains a few really nice (schematic) depictions of how this internal molecular
structure of the chlorophyls plays a role here... It is somewhat similar to what happens in semiconductors
in that the "packets" of energy are guided in one direction by cause of the internal structure
of the material itself, although of course the mechanism for doing so is different.
Lol I just realised that using the organic semiconductor compounds in combination with
organic compounds used in the photosynthetic process such as perhaps chlorophyl,
or perhaps simply the addition of tiny green tourmaline granules, might in fact yield
a material that "reacts" to incoming light and "produces" charge... An organic, quasi-
photosynthetic version of the Crystal Cell... ;)
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: jeanna on October 25, 2008, 09:05:13 PM

... this internal molecular
structure of the chlorophyls plays a role here... It is somewhat similar to what happens in semiconductors
in that the "packets" of energy are guided in one direction by cause of the internal structure
of the material itself, although of course the mechanism for doing so is different.
Lol I just realised that using the organic semiconductor compounds in combination with
organic compounds used in the photosynthetic process such as perhaps chlorophyl,
or perhaps simply the addition of tiny green tourmaline granules, might in fact yield
a material that "reacts" to incoming light and "produces" charge... An organic, quasi-
photosynthetic version of the Crystal Cell... ;)

oooo here we go!

I have often thought that the differences  between our earth- life chemistry and silicon is slim. Ours is carbon based which at least in a diamond is a tetrahedron of carbon molecules. Silicon will also form crystals of a similar structure. The magnetite caught my attention because of this tetrahedron...

Correct me if I am wrong, please, I don't need to go down a blind alley on this structure thing.

I was looking for more magnetism info and got myself to Tom Bearden's site (chenier).

What he says about magnetism is confusing to me since I cannot follow so many of the differential equations that support his theses, BUT, the thing I did pick up is his explanation that it is asymmetry that we are trying to achieve in producing the OU. It is  perhaps asymmetry that the chloroplasts inherently make before their molecular activities begin. They have everything they need except a bit of energy. When that is supplied in the specific form of light, (thanks to the mineral Mg) the energy conversion process begins.

I will refrain from producing a scanned pic of my old text with the Krebs cycle drawn in., because, I guess what we are attempting IS as you say a silicon based cell inspired by the carbon based cycle of energy.

Now, if this helps, I will add,

In the Krebs cycle, sunlight, CO2, and water combine to produce the glucose that can be used and stored by the body of the plant for immediate or later use. It does this with the help of enzymes that work within a temperature boundary. All of it uses carbon molecules for its purpose. That utterly brilliant mechanism is not what we need to replicate, however, and, as you point out, we do have much of what we are looking for.

Perhaps we are putting all of it together too much. I mean, maybe we need to leave OUT something so that when the environment provides it, it can produce electricity.

or
Perhaps we should be careful not to combine Si mineral cells with C mineral cells? maybe they don't "fit" together too well.


Who knows, maybe we will end up making a new form of solar cell, instead of Hi band radio wave cell?? (Or, maybe the simple warmth of a hand will give a rochelle salt based cell enough energy to start it up?)

Now that I am getting too far gone for even me, I will stop.  ;D

Except to say it seems the green tourmaline sounds like a very good choice in a crystal cell.

Now, where am I going to find THAT already ground for me!!  ;)

jeanna
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Pirate88179 on October 26, 2008, 05:40:47 AM
Jeanna:

I am impressed!  I knew your biology degree and experience would come in handy here some day.  I just watched a video on metacafe about plankton that you can grow in your house to make blue light whenever you want it.  You have to agitate them to get them to light up but once shaken, the blue light is very bright and cool looking.  They are doing this, of course, on the molecular level.  Why we can't figure this out, as humans, is beyond me.

Bill
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on October 26, 2008, 10:35:09 AM
Brilliant guys, just brilliant.

Do you realize I've spent the whole morning wiring up a cabbage and now the carrots have done a runner.  ;D ;D

@Bill:  got to get me some of that plankton, can you help ?  If it doen't work I could always ferment it and make luminous beer. ( lite beer)

@jeanna: how much tourmaline would you like ground?  ;D ;D

Now wheres that artichoke.

Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on October 26, 2008, 02:24:24 PM
@Bill: I brought some "OceanBlue" (ltd) Bioluminescent packs
home with me from my trip to the Geneva inventors expo.
May be the same microorganisms you speak of?
I got them from the "inventor" and creator of the packs,
who is trying to market them as eco-friendly, safe, biological
emergency lighting packs.
The bacteria he used are common photobacterium strains collected
from North Sea and Atlantic water, mixed with some nutrients in a
salt water solution and sealed in a plastic bag.
When it is very dark and you hold the bag in front of a white piece
of paper, they do produce quite some visible light blue light.
But it is not enough to read with, and when there's stray light
("light pollution" from street lamps etc) you hardly see them glow at all.
And they die when the nutrients run out.

I managed to get the surviving bacteria in one of the packs to multiply
in a homemade solution of nutrients (sugar) and the right salt concentration,
and I managed to keep the glowing jar alive for another month or so,
but after that they just died. Must have done something wrong with the
nutrient or salt concentration.

I have also looked at jellyfish (sea wasps) with bioluminescent properties,
but it seems that all bioluminescent marine creatures only emit extremely
low levels of light which are well visible in absolute darkness, but difficult
to see in the low levels of illumination that we humans tend to call "dark" already.

If you (or anyone else here) have examples of bioluminescent organisms that do
emit large amounts of light so as to be usefull for reading for example, I would
love to hear about it. :)
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: jeanna on October 26, 2008, 06:51:40 PM
Is bioluminescence a new word for phosphorescent bacteria and plankton? It sounds like the same thing. They sparkle when you dip your oar into the water. You can only see them when the night is very dark. It seems almost like peizo to me. the stirring being a kind of squeezing?

So, phosphorus...

Isn't that what dragons use? Don't they chew on phosphorous rich rocks then blast away?

I haven't slept enough the military base was bombing all night. grrr. Bring out the dragons and stop those dogs!

jeanna
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on October 28, 2008, 03:34:14 PM
Is bioluminescence a new word for phosphorescent bacteria and plankton?
Sort of, yeah. :) Whereas phosphorescence in microorganisms technically (and originally) referred to
these organisms producing light in colours typical of phosphoric luminescence, in theory the term
bioluminescence covers every type of light production by living organisms. You see, it didn't take
"them" long to figure out that quite a number of "bioluminescent" organisms do in fact not use phosphorus
but rather other forms of luminescence, such as fluorescence.
But aside from the technicality, yes, the term "bioluminescence" is used to indicate just about any form
of light production by living organisms nowadays, while in the past it was indeed commonly referred to
as phosphorescence. Nowadays the use of the latter terminology seems to imply you actually know
something about it. ;D
Quote
It sounds like the same thing.
It mostly is. The chemical mechanisms for achieving bioluminescence
are very similar among the different species that show the characteristic. Fireflies for example can "fire up" at will
if their reserves allow it, while photobacteria "light up" automatically but more so when agitated. Their "trigger" mechanism
works differently, the luminescence generally is quite similar.
Quote
They sparkle when you dip your oar into the water. You can only see them when the night is very dark. It seems almost like peizo to me. the stirring being a kind of squeezing?
Lol interesting idea... Piezo bacteria... ;D
But aside from that, yep, you're right, that's the little buggers I'm talking about: the very dim glow that fishermen will confirm seeing so often
in the nightly seawater, especially in the boat wake, or where currents collide, or where there's a strong surf, so generally in the spots
where the water is agitated, they will glow with more intensity.
Their light production, based on observations of my little test batch of photobacteria, seems to be related to the amount of glucose in the
solution, and the amount of agitation.
Unfortunately I could not get them to multiply and increase their population density to a degree where I felt the light production
had actually increased. :( And their light production is so low that I really had to black out the room, allow my eyes to get used to
total darkness, and then pull out the bacteria; then I could see their light quite clearly. But if there was moonlight entering the room,
or streetlights, or even the reflected light from the greenhouses miles away (light pollution), I couldn't see any light from the bacteria.


Quote
So, phosphorus...

Isn't that what dragons use? Don't they chew on phosphorous rich rocks then blast away?
eheh... Is it? I thought they ate sulphurous rocks, then some potash, then a flint...? ;) :D
Although phosphorus sounds like a good additive to spice that cocktail up a bit... ;D
I've always found the recipe for Greek Fire a likely dragon party drink. ;D

Quote
I haven't slept enough the military base was bombing all night. grrr.
Er... Oh? You'd think they'd have enough room to practise bombing in Talibania?
Why do they need to keep you awake?
Or is it the Men in Black trying to frustrate your OU efforts, perhaps? ;) ;D
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Pirate88179 on October 28, 2008, 04:57:58 PM
I found this on youtube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phu2vZIPvhw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phu2vZIPvhw)

I followed the link on there and got this picture.  It looks pretty bright.  I am not sure the video is of the same thing, or just an led in a bulb but the photo is cool.

Bill
 

Lumen
Igneolumens Aegobathysulcus

 
This creature, known commonly as lumen, normally lives in the depths of the Marianas Trench in the Pacific Ocean near the tropical island of Guam. The organism provides its own light through a process of bioluminescence whose purpose is not yet fully understood. Lumen feeds off of the decomposing carcasses of sea creatures which drift to the bottom as well as krill.

Lumen is believed to be related to the rhizostomae order of sea jellies, since species of this order have neither tentacles nor other structures at the bell's edges. This organism incorporates a plexus of autonomic nerves and exhibits a curious peristaltic reflex to haptic stimuli.

There have been reported sightings of lumen which have grown to be up to three yards in diameter.

This lumen is contained here in a specially manufactured pressurized barometric capsule to simulate the extreme conditions under which the lumen normally live, over 1,000 times the atmospheric pressure at sea level.

This fine specimen was captured by Capt. Lysander Starr Jameson of the H.M.C.S. Yarmouth, who lead the submarine expedition to the depths of the Marianas Trench.

 
A Generous Bequest of Mme. Letitia Napier Rathmore

 

 

 

 

 

 

Andy Doro, Ai-Chen Lin & Rory Nugent

 

 (http://andydoro.com/lumen/images/lumenwide.jpg)
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: nitinnun on October 30, 2008, 12:25:24 PM
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=5479.new#new


i have made a cell, that i believe works like john hutchisons.
it produces about half a volt, at 0.5 uA.
it is 1/16 of an inch thick......


i think that what the wonder-hutch has, is 2 metal terminals, that are covalently bonded together by a silicon and oxygen base.

all covalently bonded atoms SHARE THE SAME MAGNETIC FIELD.
and if both metals share the same magnetic field, than their "magnetisms" mix.
creating an electric potential, that is easily mixed together into electricity.


my research has indicated that electronegativity is STRONGLY related to the performance.
such as getting good results if you mix an element with a high electronegativity, with an other element that has a low electronegativity.



on top of this, is that the wonder-hutch might be adding barium atoms to the material that binds the 2 metals together.

barium is a heavier element. and has an agreeable electronegativity with some other element in the mix.

witherite stones are common in canada, where the wonder-hutch lives.
witherite has barium atoms in it!


john hutchison turns rocks, into rocks !
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on October 30, 2008, 02:08:43 PM
Well, that's not what Hutchison said about it himself.

He said his cells consist of:
- Rochelle Salt
- Pyrite (crushed)
- Galena (crushed)
- perhaps added Germanium diodes (crushed)
- mix heated, melted, poured in any type of metal container but preferably silver
- central electrode inserted, high voltage DC applied during cool-down

He also indicated that he used the pebbles and rocks in his "dirt cheap" version
as cheap source of "exotic silicates".

But nowadays he's too busy with his new friend Paris Hilton to do much of anything,
it seems.  ;)

In any case, welcome to the Crystal Cell group on this forum. :)
Your cell output sounds like it is in the same ballpark as the output
some of us have been able to get out of our various Crystal Cell versions.
Some of those made by members of our little group here actually put
out a considerably higher voltage at something around 1 Volt, but the
amperage part is what we really want to increase. We have been able
to get values to around 2 or 3 milliamps so far, in various tests.

I would like to hear your ideas on increasing amperage.
Would you mind trying to outline them a little more clearly than you have
done in your previous post? Thanks. :)

Regards,
Koen
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: nitinnun on October 30, 2008, 11:05:22 PM
the more metal surface area i have, the more amperage.

because more surface area means more "ZPE molecules", arranged in parallel:


Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: nitinnun on October 30, 2008, 11:10:08 PM
the rochell is oxygen, hydrogen, sodium, and potassium.
it is chemically similar to sugar and table salt !

pyrite would provide the iron atoms. like my cells have iron on them.

galena has lead. lead is diamagnetic, like the copper in my cells is diamagnetic.
(bismuth works better than copper or lead. and bismuth is more diamagnetic than both !)


there you have it. the wonder hutch gets the metal atoms from pyrite and galena.
the rest is about how those atoms form covalent bond chains, to connect between the metals.


john hutchison polarizes the molecules towards the 2 terminals, when he charges them with electricity.
so that the atoms are spitting their magnetism towards the terminals, when the middle substance dries.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on October 31, 2008, 02:09:39 PM
Right...
....
Now don't take this the wrong way, but it sounds a bit oversimplistic...

"there you have it"?
All we have there is a couple of suggestive remarks that point out
what you deem to be clear similarities between certain elements
used in the cell materials that Hutch and yourself used in their
completely different cell types. We get zero explanation or underlying
theory to explain anything even regarding those elements.

I hear you say that you think Rochelle Salt, sodium potassium tartrate,
is chemically similar to sugar and table salt because the compounds
consists of H, Na, K and O... But it's only the constituent atoms that
are the same, the chemical structure and crystal structures are totally
different...
I hear you say that your glue cell has iron and copper,
and pyrite and galena contain iron and lead,
and that's about all you said. Yes, so what? That doesn't really explain
anything...
Oh, right, and a suggestion that the metal atoms "spit their magnetism
towards the terminals", whatever that means.

This may be a clear description and explanation of things in your mind,
but it is in fact quite a vague collection of remarks;
can you please try to rephrase it into a more coherent line of thought,
where you clearly indicate how you think that works?
And it's ok if you can't, but then please say so, because now it sounds
like you think you know exactly how it works but you're not making this
clear in what you posted, and I think we'd all like to at least try and
understand what in your mind appears to make so much sense.
So pretty please, can you give a bit more explanation there?

Thanks.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: sutra on October 31, 2008, 09:59:07 PM
Hi guys,

I also tried the sugar option because is a piezoelectric substance but it didn't work....it cooks too easily and Rochelle S. is in any case much more piezo.....I really have to decide myself to use the HV DC...

@ Koen,
from 2001 to 2006 I've been in South Africa....



bye
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: DDarcade on November 02, 2008, 08:24:08 AM
Hello everyone I'm new,

So, I've been reading all your posts since you started.  I'm quite interested in new technologies to produce energy.  I built a small crystal cell, and I must say it really seems like a galvanic cell. When water is added it is a galvanic cell.  You might as well just have the copper dipped in the water, and the aluminum acting as the cathode.  Has anyone built a cell purely from dry material? Also, I bet when water is added it takes forever for all the water molecules to evaporate out of the cell. I'm going to try melting the galena, rochelle salt, silicon, pyrite(ground), and quartz. Then I'll pump it with a ton of electricity till it dries.  Has anyone done this? Also, I don't know what you guys think, but John Hutchison seems a little bit tricky at times.  I saw one video with him dangling a UFO toy from a string and claiming it was his Hutchison effect that was lifting the UFO.  Could he be possibly be faking these crystal cells to get publicity?  Also, does anyone know where the electrons come from when a magnet passes through an induction coil?  Do they come from the the copper itself (just being excited and thus breaking down the copper wire over time), or are the electrons coming from the surrounding environment?  If the answer is that they come from the surrounding environment, could you please show me a scientific published experiment supporting this hypothesis.  I really want to know the answer to this question with 100% certainty, because if magnets and semiconductors are truly acting as "electron pumps" then "free energy" may someday be reality.  Plus, this basically gives some clues to explaining a connection between electromagnetic energy, electricity and magnetism.

Thanks, Dustin
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: nitinnun on November 02, 2008, 08:32:25 AM
water might make the metals corrode. but water is NOT the source of the electricity.


the source of electricity is surplus clockwise magnetism generated by the diamagnetic metal,
and surplus counter-clockwise magnetism generated by the paramagnetic/ferromagnetic metal.

these 2 magnetic polarities polarize the water. causing the 2 hydrogens of one water molecule, to hydrogen bond with the oxygen of another water molecule.

this hydrogen bond makes all the water molecules share their magnetic fields. forming one giant magnetic field.
these water molecule ALSO magnetically bond to the 2 metals. sharing their magnetic fields with the metals as well.


the diamagnetic metal pumps its surplus clockwise into this magnetic field.
the paramagnetic metal pumps its surplus counter-clockwise into this magnetic field.

a magnetic field is JUST CW and CCW spin!
so the metals charge up the magnetic field!


the power source is excess magnetic spin from the atoms!
not from the metals breaking down!
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: DDarcade on November 02, 2008, 08:49:13 AM
hmmmm?  I'm pretty sure it has to do with galvanic corrosion......

Copper and aluminum goes through oxidation and reduction in the presence of an acid.  I'm sure you know water goes through autoionization and can act as either an acid or a base by itself.  The energy doesn't come from the water I know, but it comes form the copper Cu --- Cu 2(+)  +  2electrons(-)

Your explanation sounds interesting, but still shows that copper in the presence of water is what is making the energy.  Also, you neglected to explain where the copper goes after it has corroded, and I think this is explained by Einstein's equation of E=mc^2.  The corroded metal becomes energy.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on November 02, 2008, 09:53:19 AM
G'day all,

And a very warm welcome to DDarcade, which leads quite nicely to my first point.
@DDarcade: What sort of smelter have you got?  You are going to need at least 1420 oC to melt the silicon alone by which time all traces of rochelle salt would have vapourized. If you did manage to melt then all togther, rochelle salt would not be one of the ingredients.

Your point about the cells being galvanic is valid. It is my belief that a crystal cell has to go through a galvanic stage, after all one of the ingredients JH said he used was water. The water I suspect is purely to facillitate crystalization and may even be necessary during polarization.  Because of the length of time it takes to fully "dry" a cell, it may be weeks, months or even years before one can determine whether a cell has ceased to be galvanic.  A load resistor placed across the cell when it is made helps speed thing along.

I'll leave the explaination as to where the copper goes after the reaction to our resident chemist.  ;D ;D. Now where did I put those clogs.


Simple is best. (thats why I'm good at everything)   ;D ;D

Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: nitinnun on November 02, 2008, 10:26:29 AM
how much heat, is neded to make "covalent bonds"?

covalent bonds are what unifies the magnetic fields of every atom in the cell.
it is not neccessary to melt the atoms, to make them covalently bond.



john hutchison did not melt the metals, with the heat.
i am 90% certain that he did not "melt" the silicon in his cell either.

because there is no way that the stove heater he used, with that metal shell as an oven, could have gotten that hot.

it is unlikely that the rocchel salt was destroyed by the heat.
but if it was destroyed, than its atoms would have reformed into a new substance.
maybe the substance that DOES cause the electricity?
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: sutra on November 02, 2008, 10:52:00 AM
Welcome to the new ones.

I've realized some crystal cells made with both electrodes of the same metal, the result are not far from the ones made with copper and aluminum, the difference is that most of the times polarisation was oscillating up and down till stabilizing at very low outputs. The choice of 2 different electrodes is  due to trying in channelling the electrons in one direction only, thanks to the electronic properties of the metals.

Cheers
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: AbbaRue on November 02, 2008, 07:30:42 PM
Sorry but I don't recall John ever mentioning the use of water in his cell construction.
What audio or video file did you hear him mention that on.
I personally think his secret ingredient is Rochelle Salt.
On one of his videos you can see that it's a powdered material.
I believe he heats his cells until its melting point(75 C) and uses it as the binding and polarization element.
Then he electrically charges the cell as the Rochelle Salt hardens again.
This should form an Electret.
I think a good temperature to heat the cell to is just past the boiling point of water.
Then leave it at that temperature for a while to ensure all the moisture is removed.
This should help prevent galvanic action from taking place.
Then apply a decent voltage to the cell as it cools.
The one video shows John holding the electrode so it may only take a few volts to do the polarization.

Check it out at the 4min. mark of the following video.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5787522280823887082

This is just my theory on it.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: nitinnun on November 02, 2008, 11:25:13 PM
.......the cell uses covalent bonds between dry elements. SIMILAR to water using hydrogen bonds to conduct magnetism.

water is an example of how it works. and why the voltage is NOT from galvanic blah-age.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: DDarcade on November 04, 2008, 06:31:17 AM

 I personally think his secret ingredient is Rochelle Salt.
On one of his videos you can see that it's a powdered material.
I believe he heats his cells until its melting point(75 C) and uses it as the binding and polarization element.
Then he electrically charges the cell as the Rochelle Salt hardens again.


I agree with you when looking at this video.  It's probably rochelle salt alone, no water.  Good job

However, some of his other videos looks like he's melted a metal of some kind

Also, I don't know about you guys, but I would love to recreate a Morray valve.  Anybody have any information on the Morray valve?

Anyway, cool
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on November 04, 2008, 03:46:08 PM
Yeah, well, besides the videos I also have some
text descriptions that came from John himself,
and in those he is very clear about the ingredients
as well as the method.
He said: - melt Rochelle Salt. (Rochelle Salt as dry
crystals will melt at approx 75 degrees C.)
- add crushed ingredients (= Iron Pyrite and Galena
crystals crushed, both are natural semiconductor
compounds used in very early crystal radio detectors
and were the inspiration for the later crystal diodes
that are made of specifically tailored materials, nowadays
mostly silicon and germanium based intrinsic semicon-
ductor crystals with p and n doped zones)
- stirr and mix well
- pour into conductive container (in the texts JH said silver
or silver coated but in the videos he does not use silver)
- apply high voltage DC (JH said "steady, clear" which
implies no pulsed input but real direct current through the cell)
- allow to cool & solidify while DC is applied
- after cooling, remove DC feed
- done
John has never clearly indicated that he used water,
and he has indicated a number of times that he just melts
the salt. Which makes sense. After all, RS is particularly
easy in that respect: it melts easily, it does have solid structure
at normal room temperatures, it is dielectric, it can be polarised
to form an electret-like structure, it is light weight and cheap.
It does however have one characteristic that may cause some
difficulties: it is very absorbant of moisture, including air humidity.
And we all know that water in combination with different metals
will generate galvanic reactions and potentials, even if this is not
abundantly present liquid but rather internal 'crystal water'.
But then again, if produced in a dry environment and sealed from the
air right after production, this potential problem can be minimised.

Those who have mixed metal powders will have noticed that
the liquid Rochelle Salt mixed with even relatively small amounts
of metal powder in it gains a metallic luster, sometimes also
a metallic glitter-like look. This may look somewhat like liquid metal,
especially on low quality video.
I have made a few with Germanium powder, with Gallium, with
Aluminium powder, with Iron powder, with crushed Pyrites, crushed
Galena, all kinds of stuff. And most of them change their appearance
from the white-ish RS colour to metallic almost immediately after
mixing the powders into the RS.
So that probably explains the liquid metal look in the vids.

As for the Moray tube ("valve"), yes, there are elaborate descriptions
of the thing, detailed pictures, quite a bit of info.
But it is a difficult task to attempt replication.
The tube was very complex. It started out as a fairly simple tube
based on the "glowing rock" he found on his trip to Sweden (a.k.a.
his "Swedish Stone"), and which was apparently able to produce
low output. There is some evidence of Moray using the stone
in fairly simple "crystal radio" setups and using it to amplify
energy. Later he studied the stone in detail and after that he came up
with intricate and complicated "valves" with a large number of
different anodes and cathodes, coils, and other parts, all built
into a complex interactive circuit inside his tube. He spent many years
finetuning this setup, adding and altering components, to ensure
ideal interaction and maximum amplification.
The main problem is that we simply don't know exactly what type
of rock his "Swedish Stone" was. We do know that he apparently
used certain radioactive compounds in a few of the tubes components.
This seems to suggest that he was in fact using RF stimulated
radioactive decay in combination with vacuum tube amplification
techniques and possibly also combined with early radio detector
(read: diode) components.
It has for example been suggested that Moray used radioactive
Iron Pyrite, and that his "stone" was of such composition. This is
possible, as pyrites were used as crystal radio detectors, and
it was also not uncommon to use radioactive materials in electronics
to stimulate electron emission.
Another suggested possibility is the presence of tritium in the rock,
which may be plausible since certain Scandinavian mountain ranges
are known to produce relatively high amounts of heavy water. The
reasoning here is that if there's water with deuterium, there may also
be tritium, and such isotopes may form chemical bonds with other
elements, and in this way tritium-compounds may occur in certain rocks.
And we know that tritium produces beta radiation, a.k.a. flying electrons.
We also know that we can cause emissions to increase and decrease
by exposing the material to specific types of EM fields.
It seems a small step to reason that Moray was in fact pulsing some
radioactive compound with the appropriate fields, thus causing
more and less beta radiation effects, and synchronising these output
bursts with oscillations in the electrical system connected to the valve,
to get out significantly amplified oscillations.

Wish I could get some Tritium. :D
If anyone in Britain is willing to play middle man, I could order some
Tritium glow stick keychains and have them sent to this person,
who could then send them through to me, as the companies that sell
them do not export it to mainland Europe, and it seems there are no
companies on the continent that sell the things.
And if there's anu americans who'd like to play middle man, I have the
same plan for Litroenergy Glowing paint. They also do not ship abroad,
although I am not sure if they actually have the paint for sale yet as they
never reply to my emails. But perhaps they are just assholes and only
reply to Americans? In any case, that paint contains silica microspheres
with phosphorus in the silica and tritium inside the spheres, and each
microsphere glows with the typical tritium half-life of 12 years. Paint
your cellar in that stuff and you'll never need light bulbs for at least 10 years.
Or paint it onto a solar cell and get output, without the cell ever seeing sunlight.
Anyone for the middle man job? ;) :)
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: jeanna on November 04, 2008, 10:13:42 PM
@Koen,

Quote
Anyone for the middle man job? Wink Smiley

Nowadaze in america all packages are opened for inspection. Freedom took a nosedive in November 1963 but it seems the crashed landing is very close to complete, now. So, no one would be successful in mailing something of this sort to you even if they were to volunteer.

Sorry! (actually it is very sorry.  ;) )

jeanna

P.S (I always get very cynical around voting times)
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: DDarcade on November 05, 2008, 10:03:30 AM

I have made a few with Germanium powder, with Gallium, with
Aluminium powder, with Iron powder, with crushed Pyrites, crushed
Galena, all kinds of stuff.

So, have any of these worked?  Have you been able to power a small electric motor like John does in his video?
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on November 05, 2008, 11:25:42 AM
@Jeanna: yeah, I was afraid of that... What with the security checks of just about
everything increased to the level it is today, I would actually be surprised if anyone
managed to send me any Tritium filled objects or materials from the US.
I would be less surprised to find two guys in suits with heavy US accents on my
doorstep, asking me some questions. ;) :D
Or our own Dutch versions of the same, of course. Heck, I'm probably on a dozen
lists already, what with all the searching for suppliers of all kinds of nasty chemicals...
But then again, I am also on their lists of OU fanatics and actual inventors, am
a registered member of the Dutch inventors society, so if they have any sense of
data correlation they should have filtered me out as "mostly harmless" by now.
;D

@DDarcade: Well, to be honest, none of my Rochelle Salt based Hutchison style Cells
have produced any lasting output. Some showed very low output in the range of 100 to
300 mV at anywhere between the 2 and 16 milliAmps but in all of them the output dropped
down to zero within a couple of days. Most never produced output at all. Some produced
only an electret-like steady and low static charge, zero amps.
The major problem is that John never mentioned how much of which materials he is using.
I may be using too much or too little. Also, not all of my experiments were done using
clean and constant high voltage DC in the several kilovolt range, but some were done
using hV pulses (pulsed bug zapper at 2kV), others were done using lower voltage
but steady DC. So that may also play a role.
I have asked JH for suggstions or advice on how to improve the output many times,
he never replies. I suspect that is because Cell construction is still a bit of a chance
process with him as well, although he won't admit that. One of the most recent
reports of a few Cells made by John and tested by some German guy seem to indicate
that the output he got from those relatively recently built cells was comparable to the
output some of us have been able to produce in our silicate-, bentonite-, and several
other cell variations. And that is not in the high output range that John has claimed
in some of the videos.
What you see JH do in some of his videos, take a micro motor and have it run directly
off his Crystal Cell, is indeed a trick I have seen performed. I have not done so myself,
as I do not have such a ultra low power micromotor lying around and they are not cheap,
but I have performed almost exaclty the same micromotor demonstration with Marcus Reid
in his laboratory, where Reid showed me several of his Crystal Cell versions and allowed me
to check them. He had, and probably still has, a digital LCD clock there that is also
directly powered by a couple of Cells. I have also run a small digital clock off a few of my Cells
for a little while not very long ago. I believe Ian Middleton from our little group here has
been doing the same or has done so a little while ago. Right Ian? :)

So yeah, some of my cells work, although not the types that I have built according to Johns descriptions.
The types that I have managed to get to work are of a different composition, they use different materials.
Large part of the theory is still similar, though. ;)
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: sutra on November 08, 2008, 09:03:24 PM
hi guys,

I'm about to convert the 40KV into DC current using a HV capacitor and a couple of HV diodes......

An upgrade about the latest cell hardened with 40KV...well polarity is correct and steady at 0,150 V, I keept it connected to a 39 KOhm resistor for 5 days continuosly....the voltage was the first day instantly at 0.076 V, now it shows 0.040 V...still very sensitive to heat.....

For the next mix I'll take into consideration the specific weight of the materials to calculate ratios....I want to use 2 parts RS with 1 part of Galena and 1 part of Pyrite in volume but it looks like that as for experience, the weights taking into consideration the volumes won't allow an easy mixture: probably too hard even molten...suggestions?


I'll keep you posted
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on November 09, 2008, 03:08:48 PM
What do you mean "too hard even molten"?

Do you mean that you think a mix of 2:1:1 RS:pyrite:galena
will be difficult to melt down from a solid powder/gravel mix?
You may be right there...

In my experience it is quite easy to mix them up if you have the
pyrite and galena grushed nicely into fine dust and gravel,
and add them to the molten RS.
Yes, you may have some issues with the heavier pieces of
pyrite and galena sinking to the bottom a bit, but the mixing
should be easy.
I have noticed that re-melting such a Cell with the galena and pyrite
already in the mix takes a lot longer and needs a lot of stirring
to get the stuff to liquify evenly again.
So I get the impression it is much easier to make a new cell from fresh
RS and ingredients than it is to re-melt and add to the mixture
after it has already solidified. And that makes sense too. ;)
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: sutra on November 09, 2008, 06:36:37 PM
Hi Koen,

What I mean is that out of my experience, to obtain good stirrable mixes, Rochelle salt must be around 50% of the composition in weight.
So a ratio of 2:1:1 is ideal considering only the weights of ingredients. 

My aim is to create a material having a layered structure of R.S.--Galena--R.S.--Pyrite-- etc

OR

R.S.--Galena--Pyrite--R.S.-- etc...

whatever the physics will arrange with the high voltage....

But the problem is that as I'm planning to do, considering volumes and the specific gravity and composing the mix with the same ratio, for a total volume of approx. 103 cm3, the weights of the ingredients would be as follows:

R.S. 23.27 g. (specific gravity of 1.79 Kg./L)  22.26 % in weight
Galena 48,75 g. (specific gravity  7.5 Kg/L) 46.64 % in weight
Pyrite 32.5 g.  (specific gravity 5 kg/L)  31.09% in weight

And it looks to me impossible to obtain a good bond between components, due to the lack of RS.

If you guys have different experiences than mine, your suggestion would be very precious.
Cheers.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on November 11, 2008, 04:21:42 PM
I like your idea of layering the stuff. :)

So you're saying that you think it won't bond nicely because the
weight of the RS is much lower than the other two ingredients,
for a same volume?
But RS is a huge lot lighter than the other stuff... If you'd fill
a 1 liter tube with 50% RS in volume, that will weigh about 3 times
less than the average of the other two ingredients, but it will
fill the tube...

Well idk but I have at some point added so much pyrite and galena
to a cell that you can clearly feel the stirrer grind through a thick
layer of it, and when that cell cools the RS still solidifies nicely.
So I think you shouldn't worry too much about the RS bonding,
I think it'll still bond quite nicely even with so much pyrite etc in there.
Whether it'll output some nice power is a completely different matter. ;)

Best regards,
Koen
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: AbbaRue on December 25, 2008, 07:23:17 AM
I noticed the following device on rex research has things in common with the crystal cell. 
http://rexresearch.com/ognyanov/ognyanov.htm
This  may be the  right mixture of ingredients needed for  the crystal cell.
Selenium with, from 4.85% to 5.5% Tellurium, from 3.95% to 4.2% Germanium, from 2.85% to 3.2% Neodymium,
and from 2.0% to 2.5% Gallium.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on December 26, 2008, 12:44:59 PM
Merry Xmas everyone :D

@AbbaRue: Yes, that is a very interesting device/patent indeed. It would appear
to be a supersensitive semiconductive diode attached to a coil&ferrite rod, placed
inside an aluminium container.
This seems to be similar to the odd Germanium diodes that used to be found
by radio & electronics repair men in old used circuits, and that for some
reason showed not just diode action but actually produced very low output...
Hutchison mentions this observation of some old Ge diodes having become
"conditioned" and producing output too in one of his videos I seem to recall.

This design would seem to be a point-contact diode that is "conditioned" to
produce output, and feeds this to the coil&rod assembly to amplify its own
output...

If anyone is planning on replicating it, please keep us updated?
It would be very interesting to hear about such replication attempts.
If I happen to win the lottery at new years eve, then I'll have more than enough
funds to buy some of all those materials and have it made into an alloy,
and then I'll try to replicate myself. But chances aren't great for the lotto. ;)

Best regards,
Koen
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: AbbaRue on December 26, 2008, 09:14:13 PM
@Koen1
This device is also found in the free energy guide on page 3-20.

They used to sell selenium solar cells at one time.
I was wondering if they might have had the right combination for this device.
It appears that selenium is the main ingredient in this device.
Maybe replacing this block with an old selenium solar cell may work.

Or an old selenium solar cell could be cut up and used in a cell with other ingredients.

I did notice that this device is almost as small as an AA battery.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 26, 2008, 09:19:49 PM
@ AbbaRue:

I am really enjoying that free energy guide/paper.  It is going to take me a month to read it all.  I noticed that he left out Nathan Stubblefield and his earth batteries which are proven to work.  ( I have some)  Other than that, it seems like he has everything else in there.  Thanks.

Bill
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: AbbaRue on December 26, 2008, 09:29:37 PM
@Pirate88179
I did quite a study on Nathan Stubblefield last winter.
It is interesting to note that his grandson has his own radio station.
And he talks a lot about his grandfather.
I only wish I knew how Stubblefield built his heating system that used 2 spheres facing each other.
We have a cold long winter here in Ontario this year.  ;D

Have you been able to achieve the strange high voltages and currents that his system is famous for?
Somehow he managed to get a resonating system going that went far beyond simple galvanic currents.

Maybe we should try burying the coil section of the Joule Thief in the ground.
I think there is a connection between the two. (Stubblefield, Joule Thief).
Maybe this is why you are lead to work on both of them at the same time.
Your success with the Joule Thief is remarkable keep up the great research.

Build a large copper Joule Thief coil, with a large iron coil like Stubblefield did and connect the setup to the Joule Thief circuitry.
HHMMM!!!!   Might work?


Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ramset on December 26, 2008, 09:57:04 PM
AbbaRue
Where is the grandson's radio station and frequency?
  Chet
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: AbbaRue on December 26, 2008, 10:13:46 PM
Troy Cory is the grandson of Nathan B. Stubblefield.
He is the secret keeper of WNBS which was Nathan B. Stubblefield's radio station
But now Troy Cory has his own TV talk show.
Watch the following 2 video's they explain it all.
Very interesting find.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=uqNSCdJP2Og
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=bbD8Y_n6VNM
It's quite a heart warming story.
Troy Cory was the first American talk show host to speak in China.

We talk about the Stubblefield earth battery but all should know he is the father of the Cell Phone.
He built the first wireless telephone even before radio was invented, imagine that!


Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on December 26, 2008, 10:18:51 PM
G'day all.
I hope you all are surviving the festive season. :)

@AbbaRue:  Sorry to hear you live in Ontario mate your winter hasn't really started yet  ;D ;D ;D

@Koen:  Actually we may have more success with the lottery than we have with our batteries eh!   ;D ;D


Merry christmas Bill.

How about potting a joule thief in RS, now we are talking about exciter coils. Hmmm where have I read that before ?

Ok dudes, catch you later.

Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: AbbaRue on December 26, 2008, 11:01:06 PM
While on the subject of Stubblefield here is a music video made by Troy and his wife Priscilla.
It suits the season Priscilla sings in German.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=3-f8FtaVYYc
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 26, 2008, 11:34:44 PM
Troy Cory is the grandson of Nathan B. Stubblefield.
He is the secret keeper of WNBS which was Nathan B. Stubblefield's radio station
But now Troy Cory has his own TV talk show.
Watch the following 2 video's they explain it all.
Very interesting find.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=uqNSCdJP2Og
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=bbD8Y_n6VNM
It's quite a heart warming story.
Troy Cory was the first American talk show host to speak in China.

We talk about the Stubblefield earth battery but all should know he is the father of the Cell Phone.
He built the first wireless telephone even before radio was invented, imagine that!




AbbaRue:

I posted your video links over to my earth battery topic.  I also found a few more and added them.  We did a lot of background research on Stubblefield in the 2 earth battery topics and I learned a lot.  I only live about 2.5 hours from his old farm here in Kentucky.  great stuff.

Bill
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: PaulLowrance on January 06, 2009, 05:05:31 PM
Hi,

I hope people are still making the baked batteries! IMO, this is extremely important research.

Just thought some people would be interested in my dead alkaline battery tests -->

http://greenselfreliantenergy.com/forum/index.php?topic=73.0


I've theorized that common batteries can only drain to a certain level, given the proper setup of course. All matter consists countless microscopic diodes. The bond between two different atoms forms a junction. Albeit, it could be a poor diode, but all diodes rectify to some degree *at all applied voltages.*   Semiconductor equations clearly shows that diodes must rectify at all applied AC voltages. This is known as the Diode Square Law. I and many others have confirmed this simple conventional law. I've applied AC voltages, microvolts, and my diodes still rectify. If you use common diodes, then you'll extremely sensitive equipment to verify this.

Anyhow, when you place thousands of such natural occurring microscopic diodes in-series, then the DC voltages aggregate. These DC voltages can be used to regard the dead battery. Therefore, it is theorized that ambient thermal energy recharges the dead battery. Theorizing beyond that is difficult, but IMO the test should consist of a continuous cycle of allowing the dead battery time to rest/recharge, following placing the dead battery under the appropriate resistive load, and repeating the cycle over and over.

Also, if you have a sensitive enough equipment, you could detect a slow drop in temperature in such a test. I have built such a circuit. If anyone is interested enough to build it, then let me know and I'll take the time to draw the circuit and post it.

PL
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Koen1 on January 29, 2009, 06:48:10 PM
Little update on my experiments here;
I have perfomed a number of experiments attempting to
bake artificial Tourmaline with a focus on the deep infrared
sensitive types. Obviously for use as pyroelectric material
in a type of Crystal Cell (polycrystalline ambient energy battery
if you like that name better ;)).

I have made powder-based mixes containing the exact right
ratios of several different elements (and subtle variations of course),
have baked some as simple moist powder sludge, some
after pressing them into a clay mold, some pressed in dry form
others pressed in moist form others plain wet like paint,
some slightly more acidic, others slightly more basic,
and all at temperatures ranging from 900 degrees C up
to 1200 degrees.
None of them were baked in a rarified or oxigen-poor environment,
none of them were baked at any other pressure than sea level norm.

So far I have been unsuccessful in producing pieces of artificial Tourmaline this way.

I am pretty sure this has to do with mostly the relatively low pressure,
and perhaps also a little bit with the presence of normal air inside the oven.

I think this will conclude my series of Tourmaline baking tests,
and am considering revisiting the artificial Tourmaline experiments
at a later date, when I have had the opportunity to modify a
pressure cooker for high pressure saturated solution experiments.
I'm just a little weary of self-adapted high pressure vessels that
need to go on high temperature with a high acidity solution in them...
Better also make sure there's some containment for when the thing blows. ;)
Actually, simply growing some in such a setup should not be too
difficult, but I'm planning to try some polarisation experiments at the
same time and that would need some kind of power feed into the
presure vessel... So if anyone has a good idea for doing that fairly
safely, I'm all ears. :)

Regards,
Koen
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: PaulLowrance on January 30, 2009, 04:52:29 PM
Keep up the good work Koen!

On my forum I've been posting periodic updates on a long term 12V n-size battery that has been shorted for months. The tiny 12V was considered mostly dead from start of the tests. Anyhow, the goal was to see if my theory was correct that a battery shorted for a certain period of time will hit a bottom level. Once the battery is at the bottom level, ambient thermal energy (that exists in all matter all the time) can maintain the battery by cycling the battery. What is meant by cycling the battery is that the battery will be used (loaded) for a period of time, then allowed to rest (unloaded) for a period of time. Over time, while cycling the battery, the average battery temperature will be lower than room temperature.

PL
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: PaulLowrance on January 30, 2009, 04:55:07 PM
Oh, I forgot to say that it appears (although unconfirmed yet) that my 12V n-size battery has hit the bottom level. Over the past ~ 20 days it's remained unchanging in DC current, which is around 2 to 4 nA DC. The DC voltage is a bit higher than 100mV DC.

PL
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: PaulLowrance on January 30, 2009, 04:58:42 PM
It would interesting to get about 12 of my dead n-type batteries, place them in-series, connect that to an LED. It would be so cool to see the LED never go out. Then do some data logging on the light level to see if there are any patterns in the light level over the months.

Even more important experiment would be to monitor the batteries temperature relative to room temperature. Buried somewhere on my other computer is a circuit that measures down to at least 1e-5 Kelvin!  If anyone would build this circuit then I would find the circuit and post it.

PL
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: ian middleton on April 12, 2009, 02:43:39 PM
Gday all,
yep I'm still around.
3 months of crap in my life has slowed things up a bit, but I'll have something to report soon.

Hi to jeanna, koen and bill.

Be back soon

Ian
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Popux on June 16, 2009, 07:09:39 PM
I everyone. I spend the last few weeks reading stuffs on these Crystal Power Cells and I'm really interested to take part in those Open Sources Researches.

I'm preparing an ingeniering degre.

I can't find the last "correct" ingredients and "potocole" you used to create your cells.
(with 60 pages it's too complicated to find the correct one again)

Can anyone help me?
I hope we'll do great job togerther  :)
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: PaulLowrance on August 31, 2009, 11:30:35 PM
It's a bit sad to see the work on the crystal batteries slow down so much. My diode research has now drifted into Crystal research because it's believed to be caused by the same effect. Most diodes are made with monocrystalline or polycrystalline silicon, both crystals. A EE, by profession, has successfully replicated my diode research, and during his research discovered that piezo elements also produce DC power. The experiments are conducted in heavy metal shielding. Measures were taken with an electrometer. His piezo produced over 3 volts, and up to 0.4 uA. That's not much current, but then again it's a wafer thin element. Also, I believe there are a lot better materials than piezo's.

Another commonality with piezo's and diodes, besides both being made with crystal materials, is there's a built in electric field. In diodes it's caused by the contact of two different types of materials at the junction. In piezo's it's due to the polarized ferroelectric material, which is often quartz. What's interesting, perhaps coincidence, is that the best piezo so far has produced ~ 10 tens DC voltage as the best diode, and the piezo electric field remanence is ~ 10 times higher than the diode. This electric field is not referring the any voltage one might apply on the piezo. It's the built in electric field due to permanent polarized dipoles in the polarized crystal.

All ferroelectric materials has coercivity, and thus an electric remanence. A permanent electric magnet if you will. That's what an Electret is. My recommendation is to use material that has the strongest electric field remanence as possible. Some key words to google search on would be -->

* ferroelectric
* hysteresis
* remanence
 * Ec
* electret

To learn more about this try WikiPedia, which actually describes a very simple way of making an Electret. The key is applying the electric field while the material is melted.

Here's part of an email I sent to someone who has worked on the Crystal batteries, and with Marcus Reid -->

http://globalfreeenergy.info/2009/08/31/crystal-battery-email-exchange/

Please contact me if you find any good materials with high electric remanence. My email is found at my above blog site. IMO, it's not much longer before someone finds material that will produce over a watt of continuous DC power. Marcus Reid crystal batteries have been producing ~ a milli watt for ages. Maybe his newest batteries produce a lot more. Lets hope.

Regards,
Paul
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: PaulLowrance on September 01, 2009, 01:40:07 AM
A new blog post -->

http://globalfreeenergy.info/2009/08/31/major-research-breakthrough/

Paul
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: infringer on September 01, 2009, 03:17:01 AM
What kind of heat is required to jump in on this project and finally what is used to do this heating ...

I am curious...

Ok so melt and let set for 3 weeks that is a start surely but...

What are some examples of hardware used to make these batteries the heating of the material (device used)

Container what is a good container and how do we contain the material.

Finally a basic design over all less the material of the battery enclosure would be nice.

Links to places we can purchase all of the battery casing parts would be excellent!

Anyone care to really make this a project and add this information for testing ...

This is what is lacking a basic structure of everything I guess for now it don't matter if it is flour that is powering the battery but we need to know the battery case makeup as well as how and what to use to melt the material!

Last but not least when do we charge how do we charge and with how much voltage and current?

Thank You
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: PaulLowrance on September 01, 2009, 05:16:00 AM
There are some videos at youtube making Electrets. Only mistake he makes is he supposed to melt the stuff and then apply the electric field. He makes the simple Electret type as described at wikipedia,

"Bulk electrets can be prepared by cooling a suitable dielectric (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dielectric) material within a strong electric field, after heating it above its melting temperature. The field repositions the charge carriers or aligns the dipoles within the material. When the material cools, solidification freezes them in position. Materials used for electrets are usually waxes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wax), polymers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polymers) or resins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resin). One of the earliest recipes consists of 45% carnauba wax, 45% white rosin, and 10% white beeswax, melted, mixed together, and left to cool in a static electric field of several kilovolts/cm. The thermo-dielectric effect, related to this process, was first described by the Brazilian researcher Joaquim Costa Ribeiro."
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: jeanna on September 01, 2009, 05:29:27 AM
@Paul L
Thanks for the recipe. I had not seen that before.
I wonder if I could pulse the high voltage with better results
Oh dear, I see the winter is approaching and I may be setting up more crystal pots!  :D

@infringer,
I used cut down aluminum soda cans. I was using an aluminum base and it seemed to work (except I was also using the alkaline sodium carbonate which released the H2 and  could have dissolved my soda can . but only a little!)

Ian's best performer was made in a cigar tube. He is from AU and the cigar tube might have been AL also, but it is in the records here. It is not in my head still.

jeanna
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: PaulLowrance on September 01, 2009, 03:23:39 PM
Hi jeanna,

Pulsing will work, but just as long as there's also DC. I don't know if the extra AC (pulse) will help or not. It might help. Also, I don't know if there needs to be actual electrical current flowing through the mixture or if the electric field from two surrounding plates is sufficient. I'm guessing that the several kili volts / cm is an electric field, not from current because the mixtures resistance at high temperatures is probably low resistance, so in order to maintain actual 4KV across a 2 cm wide substance would probably produce over 100000 watts. Although, maybe a few amps of DC current would help.

A scientist I'm working with has asked a University for help in making ultra high Pr & Ec Electrets. So we'll find out. My best guess is to use only DC electric field with perhaps a small amount of AC, and maybe a small amount of electrical DC current.

If you guys want a great voltage meter with ultra high input resistance then look into the AM-240. New it costs ~ $40.  Although the goal here is probably to get a battery with low resistance. It's still unknown if high Rz is a key to high DC power in these batteries.

Regards,
Paul
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: mscoffman on September 01, 2009, 04:59:39 PM
It might be interesting to try to form an electret
by applying a high voltage field to the Castolite
Lucite plastic casting polymer while it is hardening.
I have always unsuccessfully tried to find purchasable
electrets for experimenting, independent of audio
devices and air filters. It's as if the common audio
devices like microphones and earphones have suppressed
the availability of stand-alone electrets. I mean
one wouldn't want to have an overunity device
actually in use, you know.


>Also, I don't know if there needs to be actual electrical current
>flowing through the mixture or if the electric field from two
>surrounding plates is sufficient.

No, I think it's the pure electrostatic field that aligns the
domains, like in a capacitor. It essentially a "frozen"
charged capacitor.

:MarkSCoffman
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: PaulLowrance on September 01, 2009, 05:30:52 PM
In searching how to make electrets the topic of Testatika keeps popping up. Some think the key to the Testatika is an Electret?

Someone told me that John Hutchison is now in USA selling an improved Crystal battery. And I heard rumors that Marcus Reid has made good improvements on his Crystal batteries. The secret seems to be in finding the strongest Electret.

Paul
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: PaulLowrance on September 02, 2009, 08:17:24 PM
I think the trick is in getting a good Electret that has low enough resistance. Electrets vary in resistance, but most have ultra high resistance.

An Electret is merely a ferroelectric material that has high Pr (remanence), and hopefully high Ec (coercivity) for duration.

Paul
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: PaulLowrance on September 07, 2009, 12:21:09 AM
Does anyone know if Marcus Reid can read & write English, and how well?
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Cherryman on September 07, 2009, 09:15:56 AM
There are some videos at youtube making Electrets. Only mistake he makes is he supposed to melt the stuff and then apply the electric field. He makes the simple Electret type as described at wikipedia,

"Bulk electrets can be prepared by cooling a suitable dielectric (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dielectric) material within a strong electric field, after heating it above its melting temperature. The field repositions the charge carriers or aligns the dipoles within the material. When the material cools, solidification freezes them in position. Materials used for electrets are usually waxes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wax), polymers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polymers) or resins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resin). One of the earliest recipes consists of 45% carnauba wax, 45% white rosin, and 10% white beeswax, melted, mixed together, and left to cool in a static electric field of several kilovolts/cm. The thermo-dielectric effect, related to this process, was first described by the Brazilian researcher Joaquim Costa Ribeiro."

Just some out of the box remark:

When I see the recipe, containing a lot of wax, even bee wax. I get reminded of the fact that some people believe that wasps or bee's actually can defeat gravity. When I also take in the fact that thos little animals create nice 5 corned cell structures with it, it might be that some kind of electrical or other force field is created by making this cell structure with the wax material.

Maybe the answer for the materials is in nature itself allready provided.

A little offtopic..  But hey!  ;)


Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: KELVIN on September 08, 2009, 03:13:36 AM
i have always thought that crystals placed in the battery/generator as it sets that were of a specific shape creating a type of P n junction. also the background oscillation that permeates in the so called zero point might be small changes in space time at a very high speed. shall we say 1.240Ghz very interesting frequency indeed also large alterations in spacetime caused by large objects in the universe (gravity waves ) also created by the rippling effect from large areas of our sun (more Gravity waves ) all this zero point energy is being converted into electron flow as electrons pass into our dimension and seem to do so on the peeks of the gravity waves billions of times a second thats where crystalline structure seems to come into its own i know that further back in this thread it was said that it probably wasent the piezo effect but if you think of the pressure of the surrounding mixture in the battery/generator pressing on crystal and the zero point vibrations at billions of times a second all come together to creating electron flow over the crystal latices. so maybe its down to how tight and compressed the crystals are.




Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: KELVIN on September 08, 2009, 03:30:51 AM
correction to my previous message the frequency should be hydrogen line (1420.40575 MHz)

woops ;D
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: PaulLowrance on September 09, 2009, 05:14:51 PM
Hi Kelvin,

You are 100% correct that a percentage of P & N types will align within an intense electric field when the material is sufficiently heated and then cooled. This produces a permanent electric field in the material, which is actually very intense near each PN junction.

Also, the materials that Marcus Reid & John Hutchison are working with are Electrets. That is, they posses permanent electric dipoles that also form an intense electric field. Maybe they contained aligned PN junctions as well.

So those are different two ways of producing intense electric fields within material, and I firmly believe that is the secret to the "free energy" in Electret batteries and diodes.

Three years of extensive diode measurements has clearly show the highly shielded diode produces DC current & voltage. The record so far is 0.353 volts @ 10 pA from a single diode. Piezos produce over 3 volts, and I've seen a piezo produce over 1000 pA (1 nA). A EE (by profession) I'm working with measured over 3 volts form his shielded piezo. We're getting comparable voltages with Marcus & Hutchison batteries, but the difference so far has been DC current. The reason our current is so low is because we're dealing with pure materials that have ultra high Rz resistance.

The next phase in our research is to search for materials that have this intense built in electric fields (by PN juntion and/or electric dipoles), but with lower Rz. This should not be too difficult, and should at least get us close to where Marcus Reid was, 1 mA.

Hopefully we'll be over the 100 mA level within a year, Knock on wood!  :)

Regards,
Paul
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: KELVIN on September 10, 2009, 04:05:26 AM
Hi Paul

I think that the hole structure when its within the intense magnetic field would create meny dipole alignments straddling or overlapping hundreds of thousands of P N junctions in the medium surrounding them.

Also the work of John Hutchinson and  Marcus Reid seem to be very similar with a mix or medium with heating and magnetic fields involved, But i do have my own idea of what is really happening and i needs to be tested.

The work that you have done on diodes is very extensive i can see and is extremely eye opening especially. but to me the best proof came from your attention to detail when you screened all of the test diodes. to me this is proof that the zero potential is being tapped and no EMF is involved in the readings.   

3v at 1 Na from a peizo is very impressive may be that is the direction to go with multiple peizo in parallel and series. but what happens to the Rz under load for long periods of time wonder if it changes permanently. also if you have got a scope that can get to the hydrogen line try ramping up the amplitude and see if there is any noise at that frequency.

1ma is alot to get from a cell it is so frustrating i wonder what marcus  has in his mix. 

My theory is that its not just the P N junctions being polarised (dipoles) but we are looking at a 4th dimensional variable ie time.  If i can ask you to imagine the atoms and there alinement's making up the P N junctions, and an analogy would be when you empty garden peas into a saucepan of water some of the peas float to the top of the water forming a tight layer of peas let us imagine that they are our atoms in the P N junction  all the atoms are relative to our linear space time, so if i was to bush one or two of the peas in our imaginary saucepan  down the water will flow over that pea, so if one or two of the atoms in the P N junction were out of our linear time just slightly then electron flow might gush through.

I think that its just an alteration in linear time within some of the P N junctions enabling electron flow. it might be that when you switch off the magnetic feild the spikes in the coil are coursing very small alterations in other ways to some of the atoms within the mix.

sorry its so long winded  ;D       

Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: PaulLowrance on September 10, 2009, 04:28:57 PM
Hi KELVIN,

Actually in a John Hutchison video he shows applying a high voltage, not magnetic field. In theory that's correct, it should be a high electric field. One can experiment with a high electric field, and also electrical current. The way to make Electrets is with a high static electric field, not current. The material is melted. Most materials have relatively low electrical resistance when melted, so there's no way to apply such high voltage in DC current because it would heat the material so much that it would remain melted.

So Electrets are made with high electric fields. You would have two metal plates at high DC voltage. Then there would be electrical insulators (plastic, glass, etc.) against each metal plate to prevent electrical current & discharging. Then the melted Electret material is placed in between all of that so that the Electret material is placed in an intense electric *field*, no electrical current.

I guess one could also apply some electrical current, but I don't know how that would effect it. Also, maybe it's fine to have some AC, but there must be DC, and I don't know how the AC would effect things.

Paul
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: PaulLowrance on September 10, 2009, 04:32:11 PM
For people interested in building these baked batteries, I would offer some possibly good advice. Instead of using metal plates around the material, try using an electrical conductor that is dielectric such as Graphite. Extruded graphite works well, and is the cheapest graphite I'm aware of. A few links -->

http://www.graphitesupplies.com/servlet/the-417/TTK-4C-Sawcut-Copper/Detail

http://www.graphitesupplies.com/servlet/the-1117/EG-dsh-8-Extruded-Graphite-Plate/Detail

The only negative with this company is they charge an arm & leg for S&H, ~ $20. Does anyone know of other places to buy Extruded graphite?

Regards,
Paul
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: KELVIN on September 10, 2009, 06:16:03 PM
I am going to have a go at building one soon, im thinking of using something simple like car wax, soda cristals, and sand, with a copper collector for positive electrons. and the negative im not to sure yet but i did see a person using the carbon rode inside an alkaline battery possibly a very toxic thing to be using, i suppose you could clean it extremely well. or i might use very short peaces of graphite from a pencil lots of them all the way around the cell.

I am a radio ham and do dabble with electronic circuits from time to time.  i do already have a circuit from a previous (anti gravity Lifter) project a few years ago that should give some High voltage to the cell as it sets, its a car Ignition coil being fed via a 2N3055 and has a 555 chip controller all my own design but seems to work well. i dont know how to get high voltage DC . In the video you can hear Huchinson say about applying High Voltage DC ?  and alot of the stuff he uses is valve technology, wonder if its possible to get high voltage batteries used around valves and connect them up in series ?

kelvin           
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: PaulLowrance on September 10, 2009, 08:08:43 PM
Graphite from pencils is good idea. Yesterday I went to 99 cent store and bought one that has 14 graphite 0.7mm rods, you know the kind that fit inside automatic pencils. I tested the resistance of the 0.7mm graphite rods, which showed a short. So that works great. Not sure if all leaded pencils use low resistance graphite, but every one I've ever tested has low resistance.
 
You can build a simply voltage multiplier -->
http://www.rmcybernetics.com/images/main/pyhsics/voltmultip22.jpg (http://www.rmcybernetics.com/images/main/pyhsics/voltmultip22.jpg)

Each step takes 2 capacitors & 2 diodes. A 10 step circuit amplifies the AC by 10. So if the AC is say 170 Vp-p (120 VAC), then the output will be 1700 volts DC. In this example, each diode and capacitor needs to be rated at least 170 volts.

Another method is to use a Van de Graaff Graaf Generator -->
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqpfiu_TdBQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqpfiu_TdBQ)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NuxGB8sgiNs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NuxGB8sgiNs)

Paul
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: PaulLowrance on September 16, 2009, 06:20:48 PM
Great news:

http://globalfreeenergy.info/2009/09/16/273-073-piezo-update-6/ (http://globalfreeenergy.info/2009/09/16/273-073-piezo-update-6/)
#################################
Today I connected the Radio Shack piezo element, part number 273-073, to a *highly efficient* red LED, part number TLCR5800. The piezo element was successful in lighting the red LED for ~ one second. I was in a dark room for ~ 10 minutes. I would describe the light intensity produced by the LED as being bright, and would wager it could be seen in a dark environment up to perhaps a few hundred yards. After one second, the DC voltage produced by the piezo element was too low for the LED.

It should be noted that the 273-073 piezo was no where near recovered. The piezo had been shorted for ~ a straight month, and then placed in a metal shield for ~ a week prior to the above experiment. This piezo, when fully recovered, will produce hundreds of nano amps for a short period of time, and decaying to hundreds of pico amps where it lasts for a long time to it’s final lowest point of ~ 10 pA. Of course, this is a decaying current, and for ~ the first second the current might be in the micro amp region. That may not sound like much current for an LED, but I was able to detect light from this TLCR5800 red LED down to 10 nA. So 1000 times that is a bright light, relatively speaking, when one has been inside a dark room for ~ 10 minutes.

To recover a piezo or diode simply disconnect it such that *nothing* is connected to it. Place the component inside metal shielding for a long time, at least 2 to 3 weeks.

Although that may not sound like much, it’s definitely one giant leap for mankind.
#################################


EE's by profession have verified my claims that shielded diodes produce DC current & voltage, and also have verified the claim that piezo's produce DC current & voltage.


BTW, piezo elements are very stable chemically, made of material such as Perovskite crystal. There is no conventional explanation why a single thin small piezo element should produce over 3 volts and over a micro amp!

Furthermore, the years of analyzing diodes, and now piezos shows their behavior is completely different than electrochemical reactions.

PL
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: Mk1 on September 17, 2009, 09:04:15 AM
http://www.disclose.tv/viewvideo/29990/Dr__Steven_Greer_The_Promise_of_New_Energy/
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: PaulLowrance on September 17, 2009, 06:48:30 PM
Just out of curiousity, I created a graph regarding my research -->

http://globalfreeenergy.info/2009/09/16/power-graph-of-research/
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: PaulLowrance on September 18, 2009, 06:15:15 PM
http://www.disclose.tv/viewvideo/29990/Dr__Steven_Greer_The_Promise_of_New_Energy/ (http://www.disclose.tv/viewvideo/29990/Dr__Steven_Greer_The_Promise_of_New_Energy/)

Great speech. We need more people traveling to conferences giving similar speeches? The more people the better. Don't put everything on his shoulders!

Contact Steven Greer and ask him for advice. I know of a lot of inexpensive ways to get a lot of people, unique people, to attend such conferences.

Regards,
Paul
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: dcarlson on October 12, 2009, 04:06:54 AM
10/10/09 - Physicists Measure Elusive 'Persistent Current' That Flows Forever
 Physicists at Yale University have made the first definitive measurements of "persistent current," a small but perpetual electric current that flows naturally through tiny rings of metal wire even without an external power source. The team used nanoscale cantilevers, an entirely novel approach, to indirectly measure the current through changes in the magnetic force it produces as it flows through the ring. “They’re essentially little floppy diving boards with the rings sitting on top,” said team leader Jack Harris, associate professor of physics and applied physics at Yale. The findings appear in the October 9 issue of Science. The counterintuitive current is the result of a quantum mechanical effect that influences how electrons travel through metals, and arises from the same kind of motion that allows the electrons inside an atom to orbit the nucleus forever. “These are ordinary, non-superconducting metal rings, which we typically think of as resistors,” Harris said. “Yet these currents will flow forever, even in the absence of an applied voltage.” - Source
http://www.physorg.com/news174222765.html

10/10/09 - Researchers Develop a Penny-Sized Nuclear Battery
 Researchers have begun developing a tiny nuclear battery the size of a penny that could provide power in a smaller, lighter, and more efficient package. Most people probably think of nuclear power that involves fission and the splitting of atoms. But nuclear power can also come from the natural radioactive decay of isotopes such as plutonium-238 -- a much gentler process that has powered nuclear generators aboard spacecraft such as NASA's Cassini probe. "The radioisotope battery can provide power density that is six orders of magnitude higher than chemical batteries," said Jae Kwon, an electrical and computer engineer at the University of Missouri. Kwon and colleagues want to miniaturize such batteries to power micro-devices and nanotech systems. The batteries won't pose any fission-related threats, but engineers do face a challenge in preventing the radioactive decay from damaging sensitive parts of the batteries. "The critical part of using a radioactive battery is that when you harvest the energy, part of the radiation energy can damage the lattice structure of the solid semiconductor," Kwon noted. The researchers hope to get around that problem by using a liquid semiconductor rather than a solid semiconductor. Eventually they also want to boost battery power, shrink its size, and eventually end up with a battery thinner than a human hair. - Source
http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2009-10/scientists-develop-penny-sized-nuclear-battery

Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: PaulLowrance on October 12, 2009, 02:19:50 PM
The persistent current could be a major breakthrough in conventional physics. So how much current is it? For years I keep meauring this DC current constant in everything from diodes to piezos that's ~ 10 pA. The current is always higher initially, but settles down to ~ 10 pA. Piezos initial current can be in the micro amps, but settles to this mysterious current of roughly 10 pA.

Regards,
Paul
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: spoondini on October 12, 2009, 04:31:29 PM
@Paul,
  Your work is being validated.  Do you have any thoughts on how to concentrate such natural currents to get useable amount of work?
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: PaulLowrance on October 12, 2009, 05:21:26 PM
@Paul,
  Your work is being validated.  Do you have any thoughts on how to concentrate such natural currents to get useable amount of work?

Hi,

IMO there's a good chance this source of energy is what a lot of scientists discovered, such as Tesla, caused by an electric field. It seems just pure DC is not the way to go, since for some reason the current so far always decays to ~ 10 pA regardless how large the device is or what material it's made of. Although, after the device rests for a period of time, the initial current is higher than. A thin piezo element is a few micro amps. Maybe the secret is to switch the load on, off, on, off, etc.

The reason the current is so low in piezo is because of it's high resistance. Piezos & diodes have an intense internal electric field. Diodes with higher resistance, Ro, have a higher internal electric field. Experiments show that diodes with higher resistance produce more voltage.

If we used a man-made electric field (e.g., Tesla's devices), then we could use materials with low resistance, such as Graphite, and maybe this would produce a lot of current. The electric field itself is not in the circuit, as it's used only to produce an electric field. What might be happening is that there is a flow of unknown substance that slowly builds up between the electric field, and this flow can drag the electrons with it.

Regards,
Paul Lowrance
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: PaulLowrance on October 12, 2009, 08:47:55 PM
I did not want to mention some ongoing experiments just yet, but since I don't have the money to make a good version, it's time to show it -->

http://globalfreeenergy.info/2009/10/12/high-voltage-experiments/ (http://globalfreeenergy.info/2009/10/12/high-voltage-experiments/)

Regards,
Paul
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: spoondini on October 12, 2009, 09:21:21 PM
Nice work Paul.  Very impressed with your experiments.  You've essentially shown that this can be done with any conductive material.

We've still got the issue of minimal power generation, but it looks like you've cracked the code on tapping what appears to be an endless power supply (although we can't get much yet).

Mentally I'm thinking about how do we focus as much of this energy as possible to get some usable watts.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: PaulLowrance on October 12, 2009, 11:47:35 PM
Usable power would be nice. The best so far per thin shielded piezo element is a flash of an LED one or two times per day.  :'(
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: PaulLowrance on October 15, 2009, 04:01:40 PM
273-073 piezo element update:
http://globalfreeenergy.info/2009/10/15/273-073-piezo-update-11/ (http://globalfreeenergy.info/2009/10/15/273-073-piezo-update-11/)
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: PaulLowrance on October 20, 2009, 03:17:24 PM
Research final stage:
http://globalfreeenergy.info/2009/10/19/research-final-stage/
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: spoondini on October 20, 2009, 03:30:01 PM
I hereby name the electrical current obtained from Diodes/Piezos the "Paul Lowrance Effect".

Great research Paul!  Really appreciate the updates.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: PaulLowrance on October 20, 2009, 03:44:08 PM
Thanks! It's an ancient idea. Back in the ... what, 1950's they did a bunch of theoretical work on diodes, but their diode models had so many holes it was like Swiss cheese. We can say that now because we know a lot more about diodes than in the 50's. Anyway, it doesn't matter because it appears the produced DC current & voltage is not due to Johnson noise rectification.

I'm telling you, there is something weird going on in our society. Some kind of freakish control. LOL, have the Martians infiltrated us.  ;)

I recall handing my professor in Electronics class a copy of the Bruce DePalma report, and the look he gave me was priceless. It was not a look of, "You're crazy."  It was not a look of, "Give me a break."  It was a look of, "We should not be reading this!"

Regards,
Paul
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: PaulLowrance on October 20, 2009, 03:52:29 PM
If anyone knows a EE or physicist, then maybe they would be interested in replicating this. The diode or piezo cost less than $2. A small thick Hammond diecast Aluminum chassis is ~ $7.

EE's & physicists have replicated the claim. It's real! The voltage levels are high enough. Now for the final goal of getting the current high enough.

The only person that has verified my claim, so far, and willing to say it publicly is Tom Valone, but then again he's no a skeptic. The other scientists are (or were) skeptics, but they have everything to lose by going public. They want to be 100.0000000% certain this is real.

Paul
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: z.monkey on October 21, 2009, 04:57:15 PM
10 picoAmps?

Had you considered that the piezo works in reverse.  When it gets sound vibrations it generates a voltage and current.  Try exposing the piezo to loud sound and see if the current goes up...

In a Project Camelot interview Dr. Arthur Neumann (Henry Deacon) talked of a small crystal device that continuously generated direct current via the Casimir Effect.  I think that this has been revisited time and again through out the 20th century.  Henry Moray and Tesla were doing it in the early part of the 20th century.  Their knowledge got passed around and various other country's researchers got involved, in secret of course.  Then we see the technologies emerging in the late 20th century with Arthur Summera's Electrinium document.  Then there is John Hutchison's work with a random mix crystal cell.  There are a lot of people chasing this little crystal.

I think you need a very well organized compound (several elements) crystal to achieve this effect with a usable current and standard voltage (like 1.5 Volts).  It will probably need something akin to semiconductor quality crystals which need to be grown in a special high temperature environment.  But, once you get the process down, and go into mass production, despite the high front end expenses, you could make a mountain of money with a product like this.  Permanent Batteries?  Everybody is going to want them, and a lot of them...

Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: PaulLowrance on October 21, 2009, 09:10:45 PM
The only person I'm aware of that *might* know the actual secret to getting the current up would be Marcus Reid. John Hutchison seems to take more of an Intuitive approach, but IMO Intuition without concrete logic is inefficient. So Hutchison  probably has some good chemical recipes to make good batteries that never die, but how much power do his batteries produce? A few milli amps? We need a lot more, at least 0.1 amps, no?

So what I'm trying to do is understand the secret behind the 10pA mystery. The shielded piezos produce plenty of voltage, over 3 volts. It's DC current that's lacking. My first experimental stab at going beyond the 10pA DC limit is to place sufficient inductance between each shielded piezo element. The reason for doing so gets into theory, so I won't bore anyone with theory right now, but basically the inductance is to isolate the Thermal noise between elements. If this works, then a possible solution for the Electret batteries that Hutchison & Marcus make could be to add some good magnetic powder to the mix (e.g., Fe) with the Electret power mix. The powered Iron would help isolate thermal noise between a lot of the microscopic Electret particles.

Regards,
Paul
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: PaulLowrance on October 22, 2009, 10:22:53 PM
10 picoAmps?

Yes, at over 3 volts.  :)

It's only a matter of time before we figure out how to go beyond the mysterious 10pA, and that's when the technology will begin powering homes, electric cars, etc.

Regards,
Paul
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: PaulLowrance on October 22, 2009, 10:23:46 PM
btw, a piezo update:

http://globalfreeenergy.info/2009/10/22/273-073-piezo-update-12/
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: onthecuttingedge2005 on October 22, 2009, 10:39:46 PM
Hi John.

Have you done any study as to what minerals are comprised of the mix, this is important in conducting serious research behind the reaction taking place.

otherwise we are just guessing.

have you ever stuck a Geiger counter on your minerals?

Jerry
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: PaulLowrance on October 22, 2009, 10:49:50 PM
Hi John.

Have you done any study as to what minerals are comprised of the mix, this is important in conducting serious research behind the reaction taking place.

otherwise we are just guessing.

have you ever stuck a Geiger counter on your minerals?

Jerry


How nice it would be if John Hutchison was in this thread, but he's not. John's more interested in making $.

I've tested my piezo's with a sensitive geiger counter-- nothing. Then I placed hot radioactive material right up against (touching) the piezo element, and it made no difference.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: onthecuttingedge2005 on October 22, 2009, 10:54:27 PM

How nice it would be if John Hutchison was in this thread, but he's not. John's more interested in making $.

I've tested my piezo's with a sensitive geiger counter-- nothing. Then I placed hot radioactive material right up against (touching) the piezo element, and it made no difference.

Hi Paul.

could you possibly you-tube what you just said here so we can see a demonstration, what Isotope did you use and any other helpful data would be great.

I am subscribed to Johns You-tube, he does make it to overunity.com once in a while, was hoping he reads threads.

Thanks.
Jerry
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: z.monkey on October 23, 2009, 12:20:37 AM
Yes, at over 3 volts.  :)
Is it AC or DC?
Also, is there a transmitter or AC lines in close proximity?
You gotta rule out an artificial energy source...
It's interesting that the dielectric could be the source,
possibly rectifying RF energy, or possibly cosmic rays
like Moray's receiver.  Do you know the composition of
the dielectric?
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: PaulLowrance on October 23, 2009, 04:15:23 PM
Hi Paul.

could you possibly you-tube what you just said here so we can see a demonstration, what Isotope did you use and any other helpful data would be great.

Hi,

I'll try to do that. Do you have any software recommendations? I have two sources. A radioactive rod, and the check source that comes with the CDV-700. The check source produces ~ 100 times the radiation as background radiation, which is what I used, and the company commonly used depleted or natural uranium as the check source.



I am subscribed to Johns You-tube, he does make it to overunity.com once in a while, was hoping he reads threads.

Thanks.
Jerry
Cool, maybe you could post Johns youtube address.


Regards,
Paul
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: PaulLowrance on October 23, 2009, 04:23:37 PM
Is it AC or DC?

Good question. It's DC, but note that it is *extremely* easy to disturb the element as far as it producing such voltage levels. The piezo should be sealed such that atmospheric pressures do not appreciably affect it.



Also, is there a transmitter or AC lines in close proximity?
You gotta rule out an artificial energy source...
It's interesting that the dielectric could be the source,
possibly rectifying RF energy, or possibly cosmic rays
like Moray's receiver.  Do you know the composition of
the dielectric?

My diodes were tested far more extensively against external sources, where the diodes were placed into 3 layers of shielding (small, medium, and large metal chassis), taken to various rural locations. It made no difference. In fact, the diode array could be taken in the middle of Los Angeles, California, remove *all* of the metal chassis lids, and the DC voltage would not change!

The piezo experiments were conducted inside a thick Hammond metal shield. The piezo experiment could be close to a wifi router that's broadcasting and not change the DC voltage.

So, the source that's producing the DC current & voltage is still unknown.

Regards,
Paul
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: PaulLowrance on October 23, 2009, 04:28:30 PM
It's interesting that the dielectric could be the source,
possibly rectifying RF energy, or possibly cosmic rays
like Moray's receiver.

It's definetely not rectifying any *known* RF energy. It's not alpha, beta, or gamma radiation. Maybe there's an unknown type of cosmic radiation. Here are a few correlations -->

http://globalfreeenergy.info/unknown-energy-flow-between-charges/

Regards,
Paul
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: PaulLowrance on October 23, 2009, 04:31:12 PM
The image you posted is fascinating!

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=972.0;attach=38333;image

Where can I read all about this? Perhaps a book?

Regards,
Paul
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: z.monkey on October 23, 2009, 04:38:47 PM
It's definetely not rectifying any *known* RF energy. It's not alpha, beta, or gamma radiation. Maybe there's an unknown type of cosmic radiation. Here are a few correlations -->
The Cosmic Radiation is not unknown.  Tesla harnessed this source at claimed that its frequency is 6 Terahertz.  Moray also harnessed this source.  You could very well be tapping the same source because it is universal.

The diagram is from a book called the "Alchemical Manual for this Millennium".  It is possibly the best book on Cosmology that I have ever found...

I put a copy in the downloads section here, or you can find it on Scribd...

http://www.scribd.com/doc/17072660/Alchemical-Manuel-Vol-1-2
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: PaulLowrance on October 23, 2009, 04:55:12 PM
For some reason my browser freezes when going to scribd. Is there a place to download it or perhaps have it emailed or ftp'd to me?

Thanks,
Paul
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: z.monkey on October 23, 2009, 05:10:38 PM
Well, Scribd is the place to download it.  It is quite large, 90 MBs altogether.  I noticed that their website is blocked.  Email isn't going to work, too big...
Do you have a FTP site you use?
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: PaulLowrance on October 23, 2009, 05:27:07 PM
Sure, I'll send you a link in a PM with password to my ftp site where you can upload it.
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: z.monkey on October 23, 2009, 06:25:19 PM
Equitorial Orbital Accretion of Electons, or what I call Micro-Accretion...
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: z.monkey on October 23, 2009, 06:26:01 PM
CEET, Cosmic Electric Effect Transformer...
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: jeanna on October 23, 2009, 08:49:03 PM
Hi zmonkey

I am not getting anything but the top page on the alchemical book at scribd.

That last pic and design is really interesting.
Is it beeswax on the cd?

jeanna
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: z.monkey on October 23, 2009, 09:03:30 PM
There is a download button on the Scribd screen.  I think you can use that to download the book (2 parts) to your computer.  I uploaded a copy I have to an FTP site for Paul, I guess he will have to tell you how to retrieve it.

The Cosmic Electric Effect in Magnets (or electromagnets) as explained by the diagram is the basis of all current energy generation.  You need to read the Alchemical Manual so that you understand the way that they explain it.  That book totally changed the way I look at magnetism and energy.  I think this is future of energy generation.

The flapjack (pancake) coil is held together with epoxy, and it wasn't easy to do.  But once I built a jig to do it, and formulated a process, it is at least doable.  Here's a link to the jig and process info...

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6640.0
Title: Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
Post by: PaulLowrance on October 23, 2009, 10:40:09 PM
Sure, I just moved them from the ftp folder to the website. Make sure you right-click and select Save -->