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Author Topic: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison  (Read 525716 times)

Feynman

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Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
« Reply #195 on: March 31, 2008, 01:28:15 AM »
I have not abandoned this area of research;  I'm currently in contact with materials suppliers.  ;) 

AbbaRue

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Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
« Reply #196 on: March 31, 2008, 07:42:43 AM »
I read that Rochelle salt melts at 75 C.
I am wondering if it is still piezoelectric after it's been melted and then left to solidify.
Anyone know the answer to this question?  I haven't been able to find any info on it.
If it can be melted and then solidified again it can be shaped.
This also could be what is melted when the cell is placed on the burner.
When it solidifies it would bind all the other ingredients together.
It would be interesting to see what effect the HV treatment would have on it as is solidifies again.
Might have similar characteristics to making an electret. 
I guess I will find the answers to these questions as soon as I can get some to test.
I bought some cream of tartar and plan on getting some sodium carbonate to make it.
I read sodium carbonate is used in swimming pools to up the pH, this sounds like a good source.
I got the cream of tartar at the bulk barn for 88 cents per 100g.

Feynman

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Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
« Reply #197 on: March 31, 2008, 08:27:37 AM »
I think you can make sodium carbonate from sodium bicarbonate.  I will look up tomorrow.

AbbaRue

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Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
« Reply #198 on: March 31, 2008, 09:26:13 AM »
Yes you can make sodium carbonate from sodium bicarbonate but the process requires leaving the oven on for about 4 hours.

 http://www.seawhy.com/xlroch.html



Koen1

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Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
« Reply #199 on: March 31, 2008, 10:20:02 AM »
You can also simply buy some rochelle salt.
It is not really hard to come by nor is it very expensive.

sutra

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Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
« Reply #200 on: March 31, 2008, 03:14:56 PM »
I've prepared some Rochelle salt and I did melt it in the microwave without any strange fenomenon...after solidification, the material has a waxy-sticky consistence...I just added water then to allow crystallisation.....I didn't test its characteristics but i belive that in amorfous solidification, it may loose it's piezoelectric properties...
I read that Rochelle salt melts at 75 C.
I am wondering if it is still piezoelectric after it's been melted and then left to solidify.
Anyone know the answer to this question?  I haven't been able to find any info on it.
If it can be melted and then solidified again it can be shaped.
 

Feynman

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Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
« Reply #201 on: March 31, 2008, 05:22:44 PM »
Another chemist want to comment on the rochelle salt piezoelectricity?

As for sodium carbonate production, I cannot find the link.  So perhaps it is best to acquire sodium carbonate reagent for pool pH equalization.


ian middleton

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Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
« Reply #202 on: March 31, 2008, 06:15:38 PM »
G'Day all,
@Feynman:
Sodium Carbonate is washing soda. Arm and Hammer sell it. Sometimes it is called laundry soda.


@sutra: when you melted the rochelle salt in the microwave was the salt dry or moist?
If you heat rochelle salt too much it will become amorphous. Dissolve in water and evapourate slowly to retrieve clear crystals.
Not sure how excessive heat effects the piezoelectricty of the crystals but when I get some I'll find out. ;D

All the best

Ian

Koen1

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Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
« Reply #203 on: March 31, 2008, 06:21:30 PM »
Not very much to comment on really...
What is there you want to know about it and cannot find?

Piezoelectric effect is always due to the crystalline structure of the material.
Rochelle salt is a Na/K-tatrate, can be made by reacting two ingredients as was
already quite adequately explained in that link provided by AbbaRue, but
can also simply be bought. It is not expensive at all, and should be easy to
order from a shop or website that sells common chemicals.
If you have trouble finding it, you may want to search for its other name
"Seignette salt", or simply "potassium sodium tartrate".
Since it is used in the food industry as a preservative and additive,
you might be able to find it with suppliers of food additives, as E337.

But perhaps it is worth knowing that although it is piezoelectric,
several much more piezoelectrically active materials have been
developed. Quartz is also piezoelectric, as is barium titanate,
and actually there are quite a number of piezoelectric
compound materials that can be made. For a historic perspective
it may be interesting that one of the old 1940s electrophysics
books in my collection very clearly states that rochelle salts
can be used to generate a piezoelectric effect, in more modern
piezo elements barium titanate is used to greater effect. Hehe,
yes, obviously the "modern" relates to the 1940s...
There are even better ones nowadays, but barium titanate is
still used for many if not most piezo uses. Except for the
piezo oscillator components, those are most often quartz.

But remember: piezoelectric effect has to do with pressure differences.
So there need to be pressure differences or kinetic shocks for the
material to produce output.
Just like the pyroelectric effect of tourmaline needs a temperature
difference or constant temperature fluctuations to produce output.
You can make a neat looking cell of piezo material but it won't do
much without input shocks or pressure fluctuations, and similarly
you can make a really neat pyroelectric cell but you'll need to have
a fluctuating heat source to get anything usefull out.

Feynman

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Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
« Reply #204 on: March 31, 2008, 07:00:01 PM »
Thanks Koen.  Yes I agree piezoelectric is a pressure effect.


But perhaps there is something more, like the Casimir effect?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casimir_effect

Koen1

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Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
« Reply #205 on: March 31, 2008, 07:34:42 PM »
:)
Yes, Hutchison keeps bringing up the Casimir effect.
As a Dutchman, I am of course proud of mr Casimir for discovering
that zpe effect, but I do feel Hutchisons remarks are perhaps
more confusing than usefull.

When you think about it, the casimir effect must be involved in many
other effects. For example, all "vacuum attraction" phenomena can
be interpreted in a Casimir view. Or for another example, the function
of a capacitor can also be interpreted as a form of Casimir effect.
(Perhaps interesting to point out that the first capacitor was also
a Dutch invention, the "Leyden Jar")
I personally think that that is the sort of interpretation we should
seek behind Hutchisons Casimir remarks.
In a sense it is a sort of zpe interpretation. I guess if JH would say
"it is zpe powering the cell" he would immediately be dismissed by
most investors and researchers, but the Casimir effect is well known,
so that will not be dismissed as easily.
But that's only my personal view.
If you have a better one, I'd be happy to hear it. :)

sutra

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Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
« Reply #206 on: March 31, 2008, 09:16:33 PM »
@Ian

Yes, to speed up the Rochelle salt drying I chuck it in the microwave while still wet....the water evaporated completely and the salt started boiling....according to some documents on line I should have now a Meso-SodiumPotassiumTartrate: the structure is slightly different but the characteristics should be the same.

I've then added some water to disolve the amorfous salt and now I'm having some nice spiky growing crystals...

@ All
I believe that mixing the ingredients suggested by Hutchinson in the last communication, one shouldn't use a too high temperature since the Rochelle salt will loose it's crystalline structure: adding enough water to disolve the salt and mixing in the other ingredients should be enough to obtain a solid compound. The cristallisation at nearly ambient temperature will nucleate from the other cristalline structures in the mix.
Electric current through the mix during the growth of the cristals will opefully align the cristalline structure in a proper way...I'll try to interfere in the cristallisation of the pure salt inserting a couple of electrodes in the solution to see if the current does some changes in the crystalline structure or its alignment.

Let's see....

Ciao

Feynman

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Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
« Reply #207 on: March 31, 2008, 10:46:36 PM »
@sutra  Good to hear you have been experimenting


@all

Can we convert Bis-Beta-carboxyethyl germanium sesquioxide back to free germanium?



Koen1

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Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
« Reply #208 on: April 01, 2008, 12:54:08 AM »
Can we convert Bis-Beta-carboxyethyl germanium sesquioxide back to free germanium?

:D thinking of extracting it from a barrel of garlic or something? ;)
Or are you thinking of buying the food supplement?

I guess it may be possible to use such "organic germanium" and extract
pure germanium from it...
But you'll probably only get relatively little of that stuff, after all,
there's only one Ge atom per bis-beta-carboxyethyl oxide complex...
It may even be that the food supplement is more expensive than pure
Germanium, in the end.

AbbaRue

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Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
« Reply #209 on: April 01, 2008, 08:32:32 AM »
I spent some time searching for Rochelle Salt suppliers and the best price I could find is about $25/Kg.
I can get cream of tarter at the bulk barn for $8.80/Kg. That's about 1/3 the cost.
Takes a little time making it up though.
The recipe says 200g. of cream of tarter produces about 210g of Rochelle salt, thats another bonus.