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Author Topic: Magnet Motor from Argentina, part2  (Read 236561 times)

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Magnet Motor from Argentina, part2
« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2006, 09:14:32 PM »
I was too tired this night to comment the
simulation from:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,933.msg6699.html#msg6699

There I tried to see, how big the forces are that are occuring,
when the stator magnet at 5 o?clock is moving towards the
stator line and when the stator magnet at 9 o?clock is moving away and
is widening the gap there.
The curious result is, that you get a supporting force of about 31 Newton
to move the 9 o?clock magnet away, which I would not have expected.
But otherwise you have to  the push the 5 o?clock real hard
with the vectorsum from 52 and 117 Newton into the line again.
Now the energy it takes is Force times distance, so I would
have to make several small step movements of these stator
magnets to see, how the forces are changing via the distance.
This would be a perfect application for the LUA scripting,
but I have not yet learned this and in this moment I also
have no time to learn it..
So maybe somebody with LUA knowledge can do this.

Regards, Stefan.

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Re: Magnet Motor from Argentina, part2
« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2006, 09:14:32 PM »

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Magnet Motor from Argentina, part2
« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2006, 10:37:10 PM »
Here is another simulation picture.
If you put the stator magnet back to the line
again after the rotor magnet has passed, it needs
less force to pull back the stator magnet into the stator line.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2006, 11:36:34 PM by hartiberlin »


Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Magnet Motor from Argentina, part2
« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2006, 12:07:02 AM »
Hi Tao,
thanks for your last simulation pics.
Why is the torque so much bigger, when the
rotor magnet goes a bit into the gap  ?
It jumps from around 2 Newtonmeters to around 20 Newtonmeters,
but why ?

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Magnet Motor from Argentina, part2
« Reply #18 on: April 14, 2006, 12:36:10 AM »
Hi Tao and ALL,
I guess we can get a lot more torque, if we
use several moving gaps !
Like the difference between a 2 pole or 4 pole
motor, we will have more torque, if we have 2 moving gaps
instead of one moving gap.
Maybe we can use 2 gaps at 180 degrees apart or 4 gaps at 90
degrees apart.
Then of course we would also need more stator magnets, but as the rotor
seems to produce more torque, when it comes into the gap, more gaps
can have a positive effect onto the torque.
I will try it in a simulation now.

Regards, Stefan.


Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Magnet Motor from Argentina, part2
« Reply #19 on: April 14, 2006, 12:39:46 AM »
Hi Tao,
maybe you get such a strong 20 Nm torque, cause you used
these many Neodym vectors on the rotor part ?
Maybe they add up in the field strength ?

Tao,
maybe use a few less neodym vectors and see, if the
torque will also go down at the same position.
Thanks.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2006, 01:21:55 AM by hartiberlin »

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Re: Magnet Motor from Argentina, part2
« Reply #19 on: April 14, 2006, 12:39:46 AM »
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Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Magnet Motor from Argentina, part2
« Reply #20 on: April 14, 2006, 02:26:16 AM »
It is already a bit late and my brain is not working anymore....
How can we calculate the needed force (or torque) onto the rotor
to be a bit higher than the energy needed to press the stator magnets
back into the stator line ?

Okay, Power is = torque x 2 x pi x frequency= Force x radiusdistance x omega

So energy is Power devided by time,
so how can we calculate the energy needed for the rotor to press down
the stator magnet back into the line ?

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Magnet Motor from Argentina, part2
« Reply #21 on: April 14, 2006, 04:32:59 AM »
Tao, I tried to remove a few vectors from your FEMM files and
it stays at 20 Nm, so that is pretty good !
It is probably this big, due to the bigger diameter in your setup !
This will automatically generate more torque !
« Last Edit: April 14, 2006, 05:24:00 AM by hartiberlin »

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Re: Magnet Motor from Argentina, part2
« Reply #21 on: April 14, 2006, 04:32:59 AM »
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Offline Jdo300

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Re: Magnet Motor from Argentina, part2
« Reply #22 on: April 14, 2006, 05:20:43 AM »
You know that is an insanely huge amount of torque you are getting there! :o (almost 15 ft-lbs for us non SI people) What size magnets are used in the simulation?? It may be a good idea to use realistic dimensions for the magnets so we can get more realistic data.

God Bless,
Jason O

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Magnet Motor from Argentina, part2
« Reply #23 on: April 14, 2006, 05:37:19 AM »
The biggest question now is, if the torque times omega divided by time= energy from the
rotor is enough to move all the stator magnets up and down again and how much
energy is then left to drive a generator....

How can we calculate that from the simulation torque and forces output ?

Offline maxwellsdemon

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Re: Magnet Motor from Argentina, part2
« Reply #24 on: April 14, 2006, 07:40:28 AM »
I still think the torques in each direction will cancel exactly, and the thing is a closed conservative system- just as it appears to be.
(I don't want you to fail, I'd like to be proven wrong...)

Anyway, I have still been thinking about this idea and I came up with a simple and novel improvement to it. At least I think it would be an improvement.
I would call this the zipper variant. Instead of all the magnets going up, half of them go up, and half of them go down, alternating.

v^v^v^v^v^

Normally the magnets oppose each other 'en passant' as the previous one lowers and the next one rises. In this version, you have one magnet going
down toward the base and the next magnet going up toward the base- then that magnet going up toward the base, and the next one going
up away from the base. The field basically looks the same to the rotor, but the stators are doing a better job of staying out of each other's way.

If that's not clear, I can draw an animation of this...


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Re: Magnet Motor from Argentina, part2
« Reply #24 on: April 14, 2006, 07:40:28 AM »
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Offline georgemay

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Re: Magnet Motor from Argentina, part2
« Reply #25 on: April 14, 2006, 11:24:20 PM »
I already explained exactly how to implement a 0 force situation, meaning 0 force needed to lower and lift the stators. My COMPLETE explaination is on the last thread and it outlines exactly how this is done. It has to do with having 2-3 stators ALWAYS lifted.

Tao

How much of a distance magnets in your design should go up? In the femm simulations they are not even there.   If they have to move a little then I agree about the Zero Force.  but then simulations are not so true.  If more apart, then 0 force may not be there at all. 

Here is the explanation:
while magnet is going up it is leaving field of lower magnet next to it.  This field becomes weaker as the magnet moves up.  Next our moving magnet is trying to enter the field of the magnet which was lifted before.  That field is starting to be more and more stronger while magnet is moving up.  So where is that zero force?  Somwhere in between, but not at the high point. ;)

I have an improvement aready tested.  and it works, but I've been told to shut up because you are trying to replicate original design 8)

Geo

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Magnet Motor from Argentina, part2
« Reply #26 on: April 15, 2006, 12:15:38 AM »
Hi Tao,
if you do a simulation of the forces onto the already inline stators,
you see, that they have a very different forces around the stator circle !
For instance do a FEMM simulation of the last sequence you posted and
mark one stator magnet after the other and see, what forces pull on them,
although 2 or 3 stator magnets are lifted !
The last one at the right side at around 5 o clock feels
a very big force from the rotor magnet, although there is a gap
right beside it, so I don?t know.... The same force you would
have to apply, when you want to press this stator part back into the circle !
Hmm.... let me know what you thing,...when I remember correctly
it had over 320 Newton in one direction ! That is a lot of force on it !


Offline Light

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Re: Magnet Motor from Argentina, part2
« Reply #27 on: April 15, 2006, 01:01:10 AM »
Tao.
'I already explained exactly how to implement a 0 force situation.
- There is not '0 force situation'. I made the simulation model (see attached) and it clearly shows that 'ALWAYS lifted stator' is under forces from both sides of lifting arms and it always requires power to lower any lifted arms.

'So, you see that the lowering and lifting stator DON'T INTERACT WITH EACH OTHER..
- No, but they do with already lowered ones, and it requires power to do it.

This concept of commutation of field well known and still not solved practically (see attached - one of my models to operate this concept with a solenoid, not a selfrunner).
Hope you can solve it.

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Magnet Motor from Argentina, part2
« Reply #28 on: April 15, 2006, 01:17:31 AM »
@Light
Please tell us , how your
 argent.jpg
reacte and behaves !

Maybe you can post a short video playing
with it and speaking with it, what you just do and
why it does not work yet ?
Many thanks.


Offline silverdragonrs

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Re: Magnet Motor from Argentina, part2
« Reply #29 on: April 15, 2006, 01:31:03 AM »
I think the femm sims are all going to be off. the magnetic forces in this device are 3 demensional. (i know already been said) on top of that there are hundreds of things not thought of in all these sims. though this device is mechanically simple it is magnetically complicated. an actual replica and physical simulations are the only present way to show the forces on this motor.

a sample of some un figured problems in torque.

mechanical drag and friction - bearings, pins, shock, vibrations, air (i recomend enclosing device in a vacuum tight case after

completing and including stabalizers to final product)

temerature differances/ problems - friction of bearings and cap on rotor creates heat... heat transfer to rotor magnets, high friction area around stator arm pins create heat, environmental temperatures. (all these depend on heatsinc and precautions taken)

size and distance - the magnets feild reaches a peak stregnth at the center of its feilds (inside the curve) and placing the magnets closer or farther from the rotor is going to effect things as well as the size and quality of the magnets you use.

effects of different materials used in the building of the device - any material that reacts with magnets is going to effect the device

i believe this to be a high yield device, and femm helps to create a higher yeild through different setups, but any sim provided in this case is not going to be acurate without some aditional calculation. these femm sims are theoretical in nature, but are still very usefull in finding better setups. (exp. you say that bar magnets will create more torque/reaction than the curve/half moon magnet torbay used.... ) this is good info.

thanks for your ideas....... this is just my oppinion.... so dont bite my head off.... i know i am wrong on somethings.... just let me know where and how.....

thanks,
danny

p.s. i say this only becuase everyone is so obsessed with the femm sims that i think it is taking away from the rest of the project...

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Re: Magnet Motor from Argentina, part2
« Reply #29 on: April 15, 2006, 01:31:03 AM »

 

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