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Author Topic: Working Air Battery  (Read 146304 times)

Offline PeteIdl4

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Re: Working Air Battery
« Reply #30 on: June 17, 2010, 12:16:47 AM »
This is what I think is pretty amazing.  I ran the outside mag A most of last winter under load.  It was still working fine this spring but coming apart at all the splices.  I dug up all the underground ribbon and it's the very same ribbon I have been using in all my air battery experiments up until the last two large carbon rod models on my latest YouTube video.

I agree with Jeanna i also think that's truly amazing. On my first plant batteries and earth batteries, i got just about the same results as Jeanna. The mag ribbon would last about a week running about 4 LEDs continuously.

On my first Air Batteries I used an old shirt for the cotton then i moved on to cotton gauze, but still not a true Air Battery as i had to keep it really wet down to get about 20-25ma of power. The magnesium lasted about a week and a half on these before the mag would eventually deteriorate and break somewhere.

As for these new ones I  just built, we'll just have to wait and see but they should last longer since they use a lot less water.

@billmehess,
As Jeanna stated studies on the Air batteries is still incomplete. Although if you were referring to the light, I can tell you as of right now the two Air Batteries will light the fluorescent for about an hour before i have to add another ML of water to each to light it up again.

I have a couple more pictures to share with everyone before I go:
First one is lighting a red LED with no added water, just from moisture in the air. Then I added just one drop of water to the center, and i got enough power to light these three white LEDs.

-Pete

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Working Air Battery
« Reply #30 on: June 17, 2010, 12:16:47 AM »

Offline billmehess

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Re: Working Air Battery
« Reply #31 on: June 17, 2010, 12:41:54 AM »

Hi Pete
Your voltmeter is showing a reading of .57 volts. How are you able to run 3 LED's on this small amount of voltage?
Bill

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline lasersaber

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Re: Working Air Battery
« Reply #32 on: June 17, 2010, 01:54:46 AM »
@Pete

It's great to see you making these.  I really think we need to keep sharing our results and trying new things to improve on the design even more.  Thanks for the great pictures.  Great job!

Offline PeteIdl4

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Re: Working Air Battery
« Reply #33 on: June 17, 2010, 05:18:44 AM »
Hi Pete
Your voltmeter is showing a reading of .57 volts. How are you able to run 3 LED's on this small amount of voltage?
Bill
Hi Bill,
Sorry I probably should've mentioned I have a joule thief glued to the back of those lights.
oops :D

@Lasersaber,
Thank you and I agree about sharing our results on these batteries to improve designs and efficiency. Thank you for all the contributions you've made as well.

-Pete


Offline capthook

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Re: Working Air Battery
« Reply #34 on: June 17, 2010, 07:07:16 AM »
lasersaber, thanks for posting/sharing your info - good vids.

Have you checked out aluminum-air batteries?  Similar idea yet most of the aluminum can be recycled/reclaimed from the aluminum-oxide in the electrolyte making for a cheaper and closer to a 'closed' loop.

Rate of magnesium consumption:
I know it's been asked and you probably don't have the answer as of yet, but this is of great importance to determine.

Carbon rod:
what other materials(cheaper) might be used as a replacement?

Electrolyte:
as has been mentioned - water pH levels, salt content, other additives/solutions/concentrations.

Useful amp/hours and $ per amp/hour:
A typical AA battery is rated 2 amp/hours discharging from 1.5V to 0.9V.
The discharge curve is relatively linear in that range, so the average voltage is 1.2V.
The power then, is 1.2V times 2 amp/hour = 2.4 watt/hours.
$0.25/2.4 watt/hours = $.104 watt/hour = $104 kWh for AA battery power

Power from the grid = $.12 kWh

graphite rods: 2x$30 = $60
magnesium 25g: $7 (what is total grams of magnesium used on each?)
total: $67

Say the 2 ran for 1 month (seems a very long time to be able to produce full power):
1.5v x (2 amps x 24hours x 30 days) = 2160 watt/hours
$67/2160 watt/hours = $.03 watt/hour = $31 kWh
BUT - if the *consumable" cost is $7 of magnesium:
$7/2160 = $0.0032 = $3.24 kWh

So: the final cost analysis needs to be determined.

Power Grid =   $0.12 kWh
AA Battery = $104.00 kWh = 866 times more expensive than grid
Air Battery =  $3.24 kWh = 27 times more expensive than grid

Summary of cost:
Considering a magnesium consumption of $7 as the only consumable cost,
the air battery would have to provide full power for -> 27 months or 2.25 years to compete with the cost of grid power using 'arbitrary' efficiency  assumptions.

Some ideas/thoughts/questions/efficacy issues to consider.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Working Air Battery
« Reply #34 on: June 17, 2010, 07:07:16 AM »
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Offline Mk1

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Re: Working Air Battery
« Reply #35 on: June 17, 2010, 07:54:03 AM »
@all

I got this link , with zinc ribbon and many more goodies http://www.rotometals.com/Zinc-Wire-s/42.htm

But we have to come to a conclusion the surface area is greater on the ribbon, this will make it better then any round wire. Using flat wire will always make stronger battery , the next step would be bigger and bigger wire .

I really think we should look into using sheet metal , we could cut it then to any desired size and bend it to any shape we fantasized , power could also be calculated by the contact area .

By having flexible material , we could double triple the power generated by Lasersaber battery .

Mark 

Offline capthook

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Re: Working Air Battery
« Reply #36 on: June 17, 2010, 08:03:25 AM »
These rods hold one roll of magnesium ribbon perfectly.

Didn't see this... answers the question of how much magnesium used:

2 batteries in series = 1.5v x 2 amps = 3 watts
Magnesium 2 x 25g = $7 wholesale - $14 retail

So, for how long until the batteries produce 50% power and need refurbishing?
This equals 2.25 watts avg. output.
$10 consumables ($7 wholesale plus $3 misc)

2.25 watts x 444 hours = 1 kWh
444 hours / 24 hours = 18.5 days
$10/$0.12 (grid) = 83
83 x 18.5 days = 1537 days or 4.21 years of output required without replacing any materials of the airbatteries to equal the cost of grid power.
(however, this doesn't even include the initial capital costs of the supporting structures ie: carbon rods etc)

Edit:
Factor in the cost of the rods and it's more like 9 years.
No way will they work for 4-9 years without replacing the materials.
4 months maybe, but not years.

It's a neat idea, but an expensive one that would require either a drastic increase in ouput or decrease in cost to be practical.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2010, 08:58:20 AM by capthook »

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Working Air Battery
« Reply #36 on: June 17, 2010, 08:03:25 AM »
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Offline markdansie

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Re: Working Air Battery
« Reply #37 on: June 17, 2010, 09:14:56 AM »
Great posts everyone.
I am looking at doing it as a plate like a car battery so it is easy to replace the manesium plates. It is all to do with the surface area. magnesium itself raw is $3 per kilogram or 3 cents per gram. lets double or even triple that to have it processed into plates. it will never proberbly compete with grid but for portable power applications would have a lot of potential.
How long they last will be interesting and it may be a matter of removing the oxide that builds up rather than replacing the magnesium that often. Food for thought.
When compared with the cost of lithium batteries or other recharbale batteries that have a limited life span let alone the cost of charging and the inconvienience i tink these will win hands down
the true advantage would come if these we to trickle charge other batteries. For camping and other infrequent use items it would be a winner.
There are literally thousands of applications for this. Think of an electric motor scooter that still retianed the normal batteries but had some of these charging. Everytime you stopped or wasnt using it it would be charging itself.
Anyway I think it is exciting
mark

Offline markdansie

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Re: Working Air Battery
« Reply #38 on: June 17, 2010, 09:55:17 AM »

Offline capthook

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Re: Working Air Battery
« Reply #39 on: June 17, 2010, 10:37:43 AM »
it will never proberbly compete with grid but for portable power applications would have a lot of potential.
When compared with the cost of lithium batteries or other recharbale batteries that have a limited life span let alone the cost of charging and the inconvienience i tink these will win hands down
the true advantage would come if these we to trickle charge other batteries. For camping and other infrequent use items it would be a winner.
There are literally thousands of applications for this. Think of an electric motor scooter that still retianed the normal batteries but had some of these charging. Everytime you stopped or wasnt using it it would be charging itself.

Portable power = energy density
That's the 'power' of lithium-ion, lot's of juice in a small/light-weight package = 128 wh/kg

Taking the scooter idea as an example:

2kWh per 45 miles (http://www.gizmag.com/yogo-electric-scooter-removable-battery/14764/)

Lithium battery = 22 kg

So if you wish to recharge the battery overnight, you need to replace:
2kWh/8 hours = 250 Watt charger

Using the current airbattery discussed here:

250 watts/ 1.5 watts per cell = 166 cells

What is the weight per cell?  1.5kg?

1.5kg x 166 cells = 250kg = $5,810 ($35x166)

Result: spending $5,810 on 250kg on airbatteries to recharge your 22kg scooter batteries.
(10x the weight of the scooter batteries and 2x the cost of the entire scooter)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Working Air Battery
« Reply #39 on: June 17, 2010, 10:37:43 AM »
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Offline capthook

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Re: Working Air Battery
« Reply #40 on: June 17, 2010, 10:51:18 AM »
Summary:

To be practical/useful/economical IMO:

1) Graphite rod must be replaced - too expensive, big and heavy
2) Larger reaction surface area
3) improved electrolyte
4) aluminum rather than magnesium?
5) overall decrease in cost, size and weight
6) overall increase in output

Those are my suggestions/recommendations and look forward to seeing how it progresses.

P.S. If only EESTOR would ever finish development on their supposed super-capacitor we will see amazing things - still wondering though if it is just 'vapor-ware' and pie-in-the-sky dreaming!

Offline markdansie

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Re: Working Air Battery
« Reply #41 on: June 17, 2010, 02:17:50 PM »
@Captain Hook

thank you for the reality check.

However their is always more than one way to skin a cat

http://www.magpowersystems.com/

http://www.cleanteam.ch/blog/tag/magnesium-battery

http://www.physorg.com/news155569564.html


Hope this information is usefull
Kind Regards
mark


Offline PeteIdl4

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Re: Working Air Battery
« Reply #42 on: June 17, 2010, 02:20:01 PM »
@capthook,

I agree that these air batteries may not be practical for big applications such as the scooter idea, but neither is your standard AA battery. They have the same problem, cost over efficiency, not to mention they are really bad for the environment. However we're just getting started on these air batteries and efficiency/wattage has been improving. My latest replications of lasersaber's designs get about 300ma@1.6v, roughly half a watt and they only weigh in at about 69g. So based on this you should be able to get the 250 watts with about 35kg as opposed to the 250kg. Still not competitive and probably never will, but that won't stop me from improving these to get the most out of them, and to be honest they're just really cool :). I like the thought of being able to have a reliable portable power source even if it may only be for two weeks. In a black out or camping trip where you can't recharge your Li-ion's and your regular batteries die out, these air batteries will come to the rescue.

This brings me to a new air battery I made last night. I have a few small pieces of a carbon rod that broke so I decided to make a small one just to see how much power I can get off it. I am able to get about 35-40ma, which kind of surprised me I wasn't expecting that much off an air battery so small. It lights the three LEDs easily as you can see by the picture.

P.S. I have nothing against Li-ion, I have a love hate relationship with them ;D as I know how volatile they can be at times, yet they do come in handy.

-Pete

Offline markdansie

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Re: Working Air Battery
« Reply #43 on: June 17, 2010, 02:38:34 PM »
@pete
Love the small battery, would be great having one of these trickle charging one of my torches or powering cell phone when I go bush.
i was a little of beam with the scooter idea but camping and remote power its a great idea.
I guess time will tell how long they will last before the magnesium has to be replaced. I think the salt is essential somehow to extend the life.
mark

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline conradelektro

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Re: Working Air Battery
« Reply #44 on: June 17, 2010, 02:58:53 PM »
Congratulations Lasersaber, your ideas are great! Please continue posting videos.

I am not so much interested in "efficiency" and "costs" as Capthook seems to be.

It is important to build simple batteries with materials at hand. Even if they are not as efficient as commercially available batteries and even if they are theoretically expensive. First, this makes great science projects and second, it might become necessary in an emergency or during an economic downturn (as we seem to experience at present). Small radios, clocks and even some low level lighting can be driven by these simple set ups.

If one has materials at hand (e.g. for free, because people are throwing things away), costs are not important. And one still gets "some electricity", although there might be theoretical possibilities to get more with different setups. In practice, many things are for free (just collect them) and even little electricity might be a big help.

Also "size" and "weight" is not so important for a battery used at home (e.g. for emergency lighting and as an emergency radio power supply), because such a "thing" can also serve as a designer object or conversation peace. Just throw out some vases or useless furniture. Oh yes, vases, they can be turned into batteries (use salt water and two strips of different metals).

Look at the table in the middle of this page, it gives ideas about the metals to use:

http://www.corrosionist.com/Galvanic_Corrosion.htm

Other nice pages from this site:

http://corrosion.ksc.nasa.gov/galcorr.htm
http://corrosion.ksc.nasa.gov/electrochem_cells.htm
http://www.npl.co.uk/upload/pdf/the_electrochemistry_of_corrosion_with_figures.pdf

Aluminium can be found easily, therefore one should concentrate on it (instaed of magnesium, which is hard to come by for free). Many throw away food containers are made from aluminium or at least some aluminium alloy.

The second metal could be copper, because copper pipes are easy to get (e.g. out of abandoned buildings). Also many grades of steel are good and can be found for free (e.g. out of abandoned cars; the paint has to be scrapped off).

I am working with aluminium as one metal and copper or steel as the galvanic counterpart. Lasersaber's idea of using kitchen paper towels soaked in salt water as an electrolyte is very good and simple. Once my cells are finished I will post them. I am working on practical set ups which allow easy adding of salt water and easy changing of the paper towels (no masking tape). Any paper should work, even newspapers.

I posted an "aluminium - tile cement - copper cell" which already works for weeks. I have to dip it in water every few days or place it outside for an hour when the air is damp to "recharge" it:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=972.825
Re: Crystal Power CeLL by John Hutchison
« Reply #833 on: May 31, 2010, 11:22:17 PM »

The paper towel soaked in salt water should work much better than the tile cement, altough it is less sturdy and more difficult to maintain over long periods. The tile cement can also be soaked with salt water (which I still have to try, because I do not want to spoil my little set up yet; I want to do a long time test with it as it is).

Greetings, Conrad

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Working Air Battery
« Reply #44 on: June 17, 2010, 02:58:53 PM »

 

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