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Hydrogen energy => Motors or Vehicles running on HHO or Hydrogen only, no gasoline => Topic started by: hartiberlin on April 25, 2010, 08:33:30 AM

Title: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: hartiberlin on April 25, 2010, 08:33:30 AM
Have a look at these 2 new videos
from the German Anton HHO cell team !


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaiyjV8OpC4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYJOAqPYmkk

Is this the future of energy production ?

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: ramset on April 25, 2010, 08:48:21 AM
Stefan,
Are you saying this "Anton" system can power itself ,plus make more power?

Chet
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: hartiberlin on April 25, 2010, 08:54:02 AM
I am still waiting for an  exact confirmation
from Oliver and Valentin, but it seems to be so...

He said it ran a little unstable and the motor accelerated too much,
so he had to shut it down after 40 seconds, cause he did not want to
blow his DC power supply.

The voltage output of the generator is not enough stabilized...

But it seems to be a elfrunning system only needing water.

Here is his latest message, before he went to bed:


http://www.overunity.de/index.php?topic=528.msg8593#msg8593

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: helmut on April 25, 2010, 11:35:13 AM
Yes  this brave men had shown the proof of conzept.

Now it is up to everyone to support such technologies.

No need for War. No need to die because of violence.

And   it is    open source 

helmut
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: haithar on April 25, 2010, 11:49:29 AM
Nice, but 40 seconds don't allow for much euphoria yet. I'm eager for more tests.



Muss ich mich fürs deutsche Forum extra anmelden?
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Rapadura on April 25, 2010, 02:42:09 PM
It seems that 2010 is THE year of free energy!
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: helmut on April 25, 2010, 02:56:19 PM
Nice, but 40 seconds don't allow for much euphoria yet. I'm eager for more tests.



Muss ich mich fürs deutsche Forum extra anmelden?


Ja,macht Sinn   www.overunity.de

helmut
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: mscoffman on April 25, 2010, 04:45:58 PM
Comment from you-tube:

>ke4uyp: It Is scientifically impossible to produce more energy than you
>consume. If it were possible to produce more energy than you consume
>then you could disconnect the source of input energy, and feed the
>output back into the input and it would run indefinitely. Perpetual
>Motion, obviously your measuring equipment is not up to the job because
>of your test results

---

Me:

This HHO production mechanism is good thing. It is
potentially a *fueled process* as natural water contains
deuterium an isotope of hydrogen. You can either pull
the deuterium out via a chemical process and burn it in
an ITER large scale fusion reactor or use it a little at time
via as a CF Cold Fusion process. So there is *nothing* in
the manufacture of HHO that *requires* it to be theoretical
overunity ZPE. This is only an overunity process because
scientist don’t currently fully admit to what is happening.
But they are slowly coming around.

Don't forget this self running system contains a 33% = 1/3
efficient Carnot' gas heat engine. If it self-runs the 3x energy
gain has got to come from somewhere. This is different then
potentially self-running on a small amount of rotoverter gain.

:S:MarkSCoffman
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: haithar on April 25, 2010, 05:07:34 PM
I'd have waited with a comment like that because you have no indication that is does self run. The energy contained in the system is more than enough to act as a buffer in the short 40 seconds to run electrolysis and the motor.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: broli on April 25, 2010, 05:08:38 PM
Technically you don't need any/much fuel if you consider the fact that you get water from the exhaust.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: mscoffman on April 25, 2010, 05:58:52 PM
Technically you don't need any/much fuel if you consider the fact that you get water from the exhaust.

The exhaust water would be somewhat depleted in deuterium
you'd probably want to exhaust it eventually so that it could
re-equalize with water in the environment. It does this
automatically through water ion interchange. It turns out
that the deuterium ratio of water on Mars is somewhat more
concentrated than Earth because Mars differentially lost
most of it's light hydrogen through atmospheric migration.

:S:MarkSCoffman
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: mscoffman on April 25, 2010, 06:10:01 PM
I'd have waited with a comment like that because you have no indication that is does self run. The energy contained in the system is more than enough to act as a buffer in the short 40 seconds to run electrolysis and the motor.

But the comment from the person on you-tube gives no
hope outside of ZPE that the unit self-runs. I wanted to say;

A) this is a different process than free energy magnetic motors.
which almost certainly must be ZPE. So is not dependent on that.

B) if it self-runs for any amount of time almost certainly there is
no experimentally questionable amount of gain. The gain has
got to be large enough to run the ineffcient ICE motor.

The person does have to show long term self-running, but he
should also have some hope of achieving it.

:MarkSCoffman
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: haithar on April 25, 2010, 06:20:06 PM
But the comment from the person on you-tube gives no
hope outside of ZPE that the unit self-runs. I wanted to say;
Well what he said is true, isn't it?

B) if it self-runs for any amount of time almost certainly there is
no experimentally questionable amount of gain. The gain has
got to be large enough to run the ineffcient ICE motor.

The person does have to show long term self-running, but he
should also have some hope of achieving it.

:MarkSCoffman
I agree with that. But we don't know if the motor would run for any amount of time, it possibly won't.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: hartiberlin on April 25, 2010, 06:51:29 PM
Oliver confirmed now over here:

http://www.overunity.de/index.php?topic=528.msg8601#msg8601

that they only had the car ignition coil running on an external small AC/DC adapter,
which could be easily also adapted to the output,
but all the HHO gas the 3 Anton cells produced were enough to run the whole
system in a selfrunning mode.

But due to the poor regulations  Valentin  had to watch and readjust the airmix
and as the motor speeded up and got too fast, they did need to shut it down after
40 seconds, cause the main power supply for the 3 Antons can not tolerate
over-voltages and they feared to break this power supply.

I will try to reach Oliver via phone and will ask more.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: hartiberlin on April 25, 2010, 07:13:06 PM
I just spoke with Oliver on the phone and
he confirmed again, that the produced electrical power was enough
to run the AC/DC power supply for the 3 Anton cells.

But all needs very much readjusting, cause they only have a very
cheap Chinese Motor/Generator and the external air input also
needs to be readjusted with RPM etc, so it needed 2 people to operate it all
and held the RPM steady and when the RPM went too fast, they shut this
system down after 40 seconds...

They did the test mainly to study how much mechanical and electrical power
can be produced and they were themself really astound, that they got it to selfrun...

They want to research it much further and were disappointed, that guys
like Woodpecker and others, who were almost there 1 year ago, never came
forward with new tests.

To me this proves, that during the combustion from HHO there is still going on
more things then we are used to know.
The high speed detonation of HHO, which they use in their optimized modified sparkplug
and phade angle timing of the sparking to motor rotor TDC position,
makes it possible to deliver the full stroke mechanical power to the motor and
thus keep up a high RPM.

Maybe when the HHO gas explodes, it draws in some energy from the zero point field
or something like this or there is really deuterium involved... who know,
but this have to be researched from the universities !


Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: billmehess on April 25, 2010, 08:33:16 PM
I guess I am not quite getting this, how are they electrolizing the water to produce the HHO gas. Are they using a battery?
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: hartiberlin on April 25, 2010, 08:57:45 PM
I guess I am not quite getting this, how are they electrolizing the water to produce the HHO gas. Are they using a battery?

No,
they just use 3 Anton cells in parallel to produce the HHO gas
and power them with this power supply
you see on the table with the LED display.

This power supply is then powered by the generator output,
of the motor generator, that runs just on HHO / air mix,
so it is a selfrunning system.

So the only thing you have to supply is some water from time to time !

Hope this helps.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: ramset on April 25, 2010, 09:09:11 PM
Stefan,
I imagine this is an Open source project?

Will the particulars be shared here ?[enough to accurately replicate]

Or?

Thanks
Chet
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: hartiberlin on April 25, 2010, 09:18:39 PM
Yes, it is open source.

 :D

I will post now some more pictures from the German overunity.de
site over here with some translation.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Rapadura on April 25, 2010, 09:22:45 PM
Technically, it's not "overunity" or "perpetual motion", it's "using water as a fuel".

Anyway, it's astonishing!

I hope more tests are done to show that it can run for longer time just on water. And I hope it can run on sea water, because potable water is very scarce in our planet, and can't be used as fuel!
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on April 25, 2010, 09:35:50 PM
Technically, it's not "overunity" or "perpetual motion", it's "using water as a fuel".

Anyway, it's astonishing!

I hope more tests are done to show that it can run for longer time just on water. And I hope it can run on sea water, because potable water is very scarce in our planet, and can't be used as fuel!

Not so. If what they claim is true then this is overunity par excellence. Water cannot be the fuel in this case because they are spending energy (spending fuel) to split water. This has to be understood very well. The only thing is is what they are claiming really true and this can only be understood and confirmed by independent studies.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: hartiberlin on April 25, 2010, 09:37:45 PM
Here are a few pictures of the Anton cell and the modified cheap
chinese motor-generator.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: hartiberlin on April 25, 2010, 09:42:49 PM
These 2 plastic gears were used to  make their own
ignition system to control the sparking at an adjusted phase
angle versus rotor position from top dead center.

With it they could varify the degree from TDC to have thee
spark ignite and supress the waste spark as it occurs in normal
ignition systems.

With this they can control the ignition timing of the motor
for optimum mechanical and thus electrical output from the motor-generator.

The injector was modified to have an about 30 cm hose at the intake
to let the HHO gas mix with external air
and the HHO gas is put into it the hose via  a hole as you can see above from
the injection01.jpg picture.
The right length of this hose is very important to have the right air-hho mix,
Oliver said today to me.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on April 25, 2010, 09:50:34 PM
So, this generator used to split the water is powered by what's produced when splitting that very water and some part of that product (of the split water) remains for other purposes (other than feeding it back to run the generator), correct?
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: billmehess on April 25, 2010, 09:53:33 PM
What is a Anton cell? What does it do and what is its configuration. Stephan you say they power them with the power supply... Wait a minute if the power supply is producing enough energy for the cell to produce 6 liters per min of HHO  this is all meaningless.
What is the voltage and amperage from the power supply. With enough amperage any amount of HHO can be produce to run anything. I am sure I am missing something here
so please all you good people out there please enlighten me.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Rapadura on April 25, 2010, 09:53:38 PM
I will ask just because of Murphy's law:

Is there  a possibility that inventors have been mistaken, because there was previously produced HHO inside the motor or the tubes? Couldn't them be fooled by the HHO gas already there, before the "self-run"?
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on April 25, 2010, 09:58:22 PM
I will ask just because of Murphy's law:

Is there  a possibility that inventors have been mistaken, because there was previously produced HHO inside the motor or the tubes? Couldn't them be fooled by the HHO gas already there, before the "self-run"?

Where might that "previously produced HHO gas" (whatever that is) be coming from? There's no such purported HHO gas (supposedly the result of splitting the water) freely floating in nature.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Rapadura on April 25, 2010, 10:00:51 PM
Where might that "previously produced HHO gas" (whatever that is) be coming from? There's no such purported HHO gas (supposedly the result of splitting the water) freely floating in nature.

From the previous test, man! They were testing the device just a few minutes ago, with the 1000 watt load.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: ramset on April 25, 2010, 10:05:55 PM
Stefan,
This is very cool!
This cell looks like what user Woodpecker was working on at this site.

What are these fellows doing that is different ?

Chet
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Rapadura on April 25, 2010, 10:11:52 PM
It would be cool if they did another test lasting for at least 1 minute, and using the output power not only to run the Anton cells, but also to light up a small 9 watt compact fluorescent lamp....
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: hartiberlin on April 25, 2010, 10:12:26 PM
What is a Anton cell? What does it do and what is its configuration. Stephan you say they power them with the power supply... Wait a minute if the power supply is producing enough energy for the cell to produce 6 liters per min of HHO  this is all meaningless.
What is the voltage and amperage from the power supply. With enough amperage any amount of HHO can be produce to run anything. I am sure I am missing something here
so please all you good people out there please enlighten me.

Hi Bill,
the Anton cell is just a optimized electrolyser cell.

See:

http://anton-shop.com

but the sales form is not working properly in this moment
and they first to have order more new plates I was told today.

Also they are looking for some company to help
them with the distribution,
cause these 2 mens can´t do it all alone.

So it is basically 3 Anton cells working together to
produce arround 6 Liters of HHO gas per minute with about 800 to
900 Watts of electrical input power and the
motor -generator runs from the HHO gas mixed with air
and then the generator part of it produces around 1000 Watts,
so the 220 Volts to 36 Volts AC to DC power supply you see on the table
has enough juice to generate the power to make the electrolysis happen
in the Anton cells.

SO it is a selfrunning system only needing a bit of water from time to time.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on April 25, 2010, 10:13:29 PM
From the previous test, man! They were testing the device just a few minutes ago, with the 1000 watt load.

Tha HHO (whatever that is) that would be in the tubes from the previous test would have also required energy to have been produced. That isn't freely floating around just like that. So, you have spent energy to produce that purported HHO and you use it further to produce even more which would close the cycle. Let alone that if that's hydrogen, that cannot be contained in the tubes at all. The problems with hydrogen leakage are notorious. No, HHO in the tubes isn't the problem. The problem may be in, say, unaccounted for spending of anode (as any electrolytic cell would do) or some other chemical process supplying the additional energy which appears as excess energy. It has to be shown that the electrodes used are fully recoverable and don't change at all during the process.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: hartiberlin on April 25, 2010, 10:14:29 PM
Here are 2 more videos which
show exactly the modification of this
cheap chinese motor-generator to get it to
run on HHO-air mix.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hy88V4CWgJ0

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=172BBu1NL0g

You need to see these 2 videos to really understand it all !

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: hartiberlin on April 25, 2010, 10:17:42 PM
Tha HHO (whatever that is) that would be in the tubes from the prvious test would have also required energy to have been produced. That isn't freely floating around just like that. So, you have spent energy to produce that purported HHO and you use it furthyer to produce even more which would close the cycle. Let alone that if that's hydrogen, that cannot be contained in the tubes at all. The problems with hydrogen leakage are notorious. No, HHO in the tubes isn't the problem. The problem may be in, say, unaccounted for spending of anode (as any electrolytic cell would do) or some other chemical process supplying the additional energy which appears as excess energy. It has to be shown that the electrodes used are fully recoverable and don't change at all during the process.

Hi Omnibus,
the elctrodes are really stable, they don´t corrode...
I have visited Oliver last year and he has shown me a few examples..
Surely you need to use the right amount of KOH only and only
destilled water with it, so these stainless steel plates don´t corrode...
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Rapadura on April 25, 2010, 10:18:39 PM
Tha HHO (whatever that is) that would be in the tubes from the previous test would have also required energy to have been produced. That isn't freely floating around just like that. So, you have spent energy to produce that purported HHO and you use it further to produce even more which would close the cycle. Let alone that if that's hydrogen, that cannot be contained in the tubes at all. The problems with hydrogen leakage are notorious. No, HHO in the tubes isn't the problem. The problem may be in, say, unaccounted for spending of anode (as any electrolytic cell would do) or some other chemical process supplying the additional energy which appears as excess energy. It has to be shown that the electrodes used are fully recoverable and don't change at all during the process.

I'm just trying to assure that they weren't fooled by HHO previously in the system. There are other possibilities too. The inventors are bona fide, but the experiment could fool them.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on April 25, 2010, 10:26:24 PM
Thanks for the videos. Unfortunately, they are in German (the first one) and I don't quite understand what the researcher is saying.

So, where is the fuel (or what they refer to as HHO-air mixture) coming when they first start the motor? Where is the Anton cell fed by the generator supposedly coupled with the motor?
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on April 25, 2010, 10:28:57 PM
KOH and distilled water are fine. However, I'd also ask what's Anton cell? And, again, where is the fuel coming from when they first start the motor?
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on April 25, 2010, 10:36:03 PM
Quote
the elctrodes are really stable, they don´t corrode...

I suppose they have weighed the anodes before and after the experiment to confirm there's no weight change, correct?
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Rapadura on April 25, 2010, 10:36:55 PM
So, where is the fuel (or what they refer to as HHO-air mixture) coming when they first start the motor? Where is the Anton cell fed by the generator supposedly coupled with the motor?

I think that in the "self-running" video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYJOAqPYmkk

you can see the Anton cells at 0:28, at the left side of the table.

Exactly in the same place the cells were at the "1000 watt load" video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaiyjV8OpC4
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: hartiberlin on April 25, 2010, 10:40:34 PM
KOH and distilled water are fine. However, I'd also ask what's Anton cell? And, again, where is the fuel coming from when they first start the motor?

I have not asked him this , but they probably start with using the grid
to power the AC/DC power supply for the first few seconds
or using a bit butan gas into the air input hose to start it up.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on April 25, 2010, 10:42:16 PM
I think that in the "sel-running" video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYJOAqPYmkk

you can see the Anton cells at 0:28, at the left side of the table.

Exactly in the same place tha cells were at the "1000 watt load" video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaiyjV8OpC4

Yeah, I saw that but it isn't revealing much. What exactly are they -- steel plates dipped in water solution of KOH and powered by pulse current, is that what these Anton cells are? Do these cells have membranes separating the anode from the cathode compartment or these are undivided cells? Is the pulse current changing polarity (thus alternating the cathodes and anodes) or just the amplitude? Not clear at all.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omega_0 on April 25, 2010, 10:47:18 PM

So it is basically 3 Anton cells working together to
produce arround 6 Liters of HHO gas per minute with about 800 to
900 Watts of electrical input power and the
motor -generator runs from the HHO gas mixed with air
and then the generator part of it produces around 1000 Watts,
so the 220 Volts to 36 Volts AC to DC power supply you see on the table
has enough juice to generate the power to make the electrolysis happen
in the Anton cells.

SO it is a selfrunning system only needing a bit of water from time to time.

Regards, Stefan.

Any detailed info on how these figures where arrived at ?
How these measurements were done ? (Measurement of input power consumption and output) The OU ratio is 1.1 so its not well outside error limits.

Anyway, congrats to these guys for great achievement. The work looks very neat and professional. I guess they are getting the OU prize ...

I think, if it self runs for even a minute, it will self run forever with proper engineering and reliable generator. The water from the exhaust and be recycled back into the cell, eliminating the need to add water.

The video needs to show the closed loop clearly. (And should have English subtitles, if possible). Can the shoot another one showing making and breaking of the loop and measuring equipment ?
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on April 25, 2010, 10:49:34 PM
I have not asked him this , but they probably start with using the grid
to power the AC/DC power supply for the first few seconds
or using a bit butan gas into the air input hose to start it up.

Regards, Stefan.

OK, so there's some initial energy supplied from an outside source. That's what @Rapadura was inferring. For now we'll consider that the amount of the initial energy is negligible and isn't the cause for the self-sustaining character of the device. What happens nex? I guess they switch from that outside source to the so-called HHO produced by the electrolysis cell (the so-called Anton cell). And now, again, what exactly is this cell -- stainless steel plates dipped in water solution of KOH and powered by pulse current? Is that what it is? What is the form of the current powering the cell? Is it at potentiostatic conditions or maybe galvanostatic? What do the I and V over the cell look like? These details are important if we are to understand what's going on.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: hartiberlin on April 25, 2010, 10:51:07 PM
Yeah, I saw that but it isn't revealing much. What exactly are they -- steel plates dipped in water solution of KOH and powered by pulse current, is that what these Anton cells are? Do these cells have membranes separating the anode from the cathode compartment or these are undivided cells? Is the pulse current changing polarity (thus alternating the cathodes and anodes) or just the amplitude? Not clear at all.

Just a normal DC electrolyser cell stack powered just by DC voltage !
The stainless plates are pretty near each other and they have very good seals.

So it is basically a dry cell simular to other HHO drycells.

But is has the largest surface of any commercial cell on the markeet today
and a good HHO gas collection exit.

So these 3 Anton cells you see on the video are powered by around 900 Watts
of DC power.
Around 36 Volts and 25 Amps.
( the digital display on the power supply is not displaying
it corretly due to the voltage changes of the generator)

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on April 25, 2010, 11:07:22 PM
Omega_0,

Water expenditure won't bother me at all, it's still OU if it's self-sustaining. If this device is indeed self-sustaining I don't care what the power measurements are either.

So, if it's powered by DC current and these are very closely spaced stainless steel plates immersed in water solution of KOH there's nothing unusual about that so-called Anton cell -- can't be more trivial. The surface area isn't that impressive either because it cannot compete with the surface area of platinized Platinum electrodes, for instance. The high surface area of Pt/Pt electrodes, however, will ensure the current density to be low for the current supplied here and it would be a more ordinary electrochemistry. Here in this case we have, it seems, very high current density and that may get us into unstudied territory. First, the high current density may get us out of the passivation region of the stainless steel beyond the oxygen evolution, into the ozone and who knows what else. Hope it isn't in the active dissolution region (before the passivation area). This has to be studied thoroughly for that kind of stainless steel (wonder what exact stainless steel that is). The kinetics at the cathode is also interesting, especially if that's an undivided cell. These things are of only academic interest, of course, if the system is indeed self-sustaining and shows no signs of change of the electrodes and so on.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on April 25, 2010, 11:13:52 PM
What on Earth that HHO might be also beats me.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: hartiberlin on April 25, 2010, 11:34:35 PM
I have added a few more older videos of the Anton cell team
to my youtube account so you can see it working and
also a gas measurement video of a smaller Anton cell with fewer plates:

http://www.youtube.com/user/overunitydotcom#g/u

Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on April 26, 2010, 12:10:21 AM
Hi Stefan,

Thanks a lot for posting these interesting videos. Can you please make a short summary of what the researcher in http://www.youtube.com/user/overunitydotcom#p/u/2/_jvroJJghyc says. What is the claim when he's measuring the volume of the gas? Is it that the current efficiency is higher than expected? 
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Rapadura on April 26, 2010, 12:20:48 AM
What on Earth that HHO might be also beats me.

HHO is Oxyhydrogen:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxyhydrogen
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Rapadura on April 26, 2010, 12:23:50 AM
So, now I think it's time to start frenetic testing on this... I expect more videos to come soon, with experiments lasting for some minutes, and the output being used to power the Anton cells and lighting up fluorescent lamps at the same time.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on April 26, 2010, 12:31:41 AM
OK, now I get it. HHO is nothing else but the usually stoichiometric mixture of hydrogen and oxygen. To avoid oxydation many times non-stoichiometric mixture of 4:1 or 5:1 hydrogen:oxygen is used. Too obscure a name (HHO) for something that trivial. I wonder what the mixture in this case is. Of course, at the moment of electrolysis it is stoichiometric. Now, that's one question. The 3% water solution of KOH is pretty trivial as an electrolyte. Randy Mills of BlackLight Technologies will not agree -- recall he finds the excess in KOH solutions and not in NaOH; I, however, don't agree with that -- excess energy in an undivided cell is produced both with KOH and NaOH electrolyte. Anyway.

Second important question concerns the exact type of stainless steel these researchers are using and do they apply any pretreatment of the electrodes. If this is to be an open source project (which usually is referred to as a scientific project, another way of saying it) they have to be pretty open about it. This whole thing seems to be a continuation of the Bulgarian Yul Brown's research into the so-called "Brown gas". Very interesting indeed, if what these scientists are claiming turns out to be real. This has to be replicated by independent parties as soon as possible. I, for one, would like to carry out experiments too.

Where did they get this "cheap Chinese motor-generator"?
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on April 26, 2010, 12:41:09 AM
Another thing, if they are using non-stoichiometric mixture how do they produce it and what's the proportion they use?
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on April 26, 2010, 12:52:58 AM
Where can one find a 40V, 60A power supply? Where are these researchers located? I may consider visiting them in the Summer, if that's OK with them.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: mscoffman on April 26, 2010, 01:56:35 AM
This GenSet ICE conversion to hydrogen seems
fairly standard. I would be glad to answer any
questions anybody has about about the GenSet
and its conversion. Unfortunately I don't speak
German so I can't be criticized too harshly for
what I say. ;)

One reason for the device's instability is that he doesn't
seem to use a hydrogen or hho gas metering valve.
He removed the throttle body when he got rid of the
carburetor. That medium plastic tube breathes air
into the carburetor port...The hydrogen air mix is non
stochastic mixture because of the nitrogen in the air.
You don't really want to form a partial vacuum using
only the stochastic mix of HHO into the engine because
the compressed volume won't be the same as with the
70% neutral nitrogen gas in air.

So he is pretty much using a wide open path for produced
hydrogen to enter the engine. One way to control the
amount of hydrogen produced would be to control how
much power is directed to the electrolyser.

He has disconnected the mechanical governor that controlls
ICE engine throttle RPM when using hydrocarbon fuel. This
is designed so that generator unit run at about 50/60Hertz.

The other thing is he stopped using the engines internal
flywheel magneto spark coil and he has built a simple
electronic ignition trigger using a hall effect switch and
a glued on magnet so he can fire that auto ignition coil
near 0 degrees TDC Top Dead Center required for hydrogen
combustion. That wooden stick controls fine tuning of the
firing angle. The generator shaft is directly linked to the
engine crank shaft and those plastic gears as are the 2
to one ratio required to fire the spark once in the four
engine cycles.

I kind of like the concept more of direct connection to a high
power 12V Alternator so that one can use a car battery to
stabilize the power loop path. The probability that the electrolyser
cells are producing exactly three times the required power is nill.
So you are going to have to control their output. One way to
do that is control the DC power supply to the electrolyser. With
a variac and a light dimmer control substituted for a throttle.

The electrolyser power supply is probably that boxy unit with
the dual red and green digital meters, that he is adjusting.

So the magic, if there is any here, is in the Anton electrolyser
cells themselves about which I know little.

:S:MarkSCoffman
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: ramset on April 26, 2010, 02:19:52 AM
Mark Coffman
quote:

So the magic, if there is any here, is in the Anton electrolyser
cells themselves about which I know little.
---------------------------------
Gotta be something special somewhere!
This has been tried a thousand times a thousand different ways!

Chet
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on April 26, 2010, 02:19:56 AM
I hate to correct people on terminology but I'll say it for the sake of those who might want to use it correctly -- it's non-stoichiometric and not non-stochastic. Stoichiometry is the proportion set in stone between the moles of reactants and the products given by a chemical (electrochemical) reaction. Stoichiometry is an expression of one of the basic laws of Chemistry -- the law of constant proportions and has nothing to do with stochastics -- the area of mathematics which studies random processes and probabilities therefrom.

Now about the essence -- what is GenSet ICE conversion to hydrogen?
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on April 26, 2010, 02:30:15 AM
OK, I got it. The search engines help in such cases. Now the question is can one find much smaller and less noisy GenSet? What's the smallest one can find? A laboratory experiment doesn't need those clunky industrial type motor-generators.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on April 26, 2010, 02:47:26 AM
Mark Coffman
quote:

So the magic, if there is any here, is in the Anton electrolyser
cells themselves about which I know little.
---------------------------------
Gotta be something special somewhere!
This has been tried a thousand times a thousand different ways!

Chet

Of course, the pivotal element is the electrolysis cell. It should be exceptionally efficient to the point of being unbelievable. That's why I was asking Stefan if they claim in the film (not knowing German is a drag) violation of Faraday's laws of electrolysis when measuring the volume of the gas evolved. Another option is to observe a GenSet becoming more efficient when the stoichiometric 2:1 mixture becomes non-stoichiometric 4:1 or 5:1 (hydrogen:oxygen). That is to be expected because it is exactly the hydrogen that is the fuel. However, where do we get this hydrogen from since the very production of the gas mixture is necessarily stoichiometric. Unless someone can demonstrate that stoichiometry, that is the basic laws of chemistry don't hold any more (well, recall superconductivity--it is based on non-stoichiometric ceramic materials).

So, @ramset, you're saying that feeding of a GenSet by a hydrogen-oxygen mixture has been tried before, correct? Do you have any reference?
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: hartiberlin on April 26, 2010, 03:03:52 AM
Some more infos from Oliver translated into English:

The problems that still exist and thus it needs 4 hands to control it all:

1st There are no load-and speed-control
   in the ignition, exhaust gas recirculation, cooling, air, steam and gas supply.
2nd The engine is the cheapest of the cheapest available, just a cheap chinese
motor-generator and is far too "nervous."
3rd The generator part of it is also one of the cheapest.
4th The used switching power supply is not suitable to process irregular 220 Volts AC frequencies.
5th The pressure regulator or gas buffer must be  improved.
6th A clever mixing chamber to swirl and a venturi system must be found.
7th The valve control is "crap delivered from the factory", so it still must be modified.
6th Air cooling is crap, because heat can not be recycled.
7th All in all, only a "proof of concept" demo..
.... etc.

We first wanted to see and research the main  principle, and therefore,
to understand the previously seen videos on the Internet and see
if it could be replicated.

There is still much to do, but we need  "doers" come into play.



@ Stefan
I have switched off because the speed was too high and we had no desire to
kill the powersupply or to break the engine. The LED display of the power supply was wrong
(Probably because of the unregulated power frequency of the generator?)

We needed  approximately 6L HHO gas at about 800 - 900 Watts input
in the test with the lamps and drill.

The exact values we will still have to measure again,
but we can not work too often in the office, cause it is very loud !

The neighbors don´t have much understanding for running a loud water motor and we
need their patience and don´t want to make them angry...

We need a silent Perpetuum Mobile !  ;D
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Rapadura on April 26, 2010, 03:13:13 AM
Neighbors upset about noise delay the development of science!

He has to tell his neighbors that they will soon run their cars on water! This could increase their patience!

Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on April 26, 2010, 03:14:50 AM
Stefan,

Have they studied the contents of the gas through some sort of spectroscopy? Is it purely hydrogen and oxygen? I guess that would be the most favorable. But then, again, if the Faraday's law is obeyed I don't see how this can occur even if the electrolysis is carried out reversibly (at delta G, the Gibbs free energy, not to be confused with the free energy we're discussing here, that is, without overvoltage). What are they saying in the video about the volume of the produced gas? Does it correspond strictly to the expected according to Faraday's law -- they know the current for the duration of the experiment and when integrating it over time that will give the coulombs which have to correspond strictly to the volume of gas obtained (recall 22.4L of (ideal) gas at STP correspond to 1 mole)?
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: hartiberlin on April 26, 2010, 03:34:29 AM
More translations from Oliver´s postings:


The ignition, we had to operate with a small 220 Volts to 12 Volts AC/DC power adapter.
As the generator has a 12 Volts output also, we could use this and use
a 12 Volt battery as a buffer for the ignition circuit supply.


To run it, we had to start gas production in advance from the grid.

While I plugged in the lamps and the drill,
Valentin had to regulate the amount of air,
so that the engine was not throtteling nor dying.

At this point, it only makes limited sense,
to continue with this this clunker and cheapo motor-generator.

Everything we must now again do from scratch and repeat again using the correct materials
and a better motor-generator, so to replicate and improve it.

This Chinese power generator is probably at its best
only 15% efficient with its intended operation with normal carburetor and normal gasoline fuel,
so its efficiency just lacks..

But yes. It is a  "breakthrough" .
because so far nobody has yet demonstrated as far as I know
a motor-generator, that was loaded with its
maximum rating power of the  generator (1kW in this case).

The fact that we then could also supply the Anton cells so that
it got a selfrunning system
was just a crazy experiment,
and the result has surprised us even ourself very much
and obviously now motivated us very strongly to continue !


Beautiful Sunday to you all:)
Oliver
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on April 26, 2010, 03:49:21 AM
I don't understand this:

Quote
It is a  "breakthrough" .
because so far nobody has yet demonstrated as far as I know
a motor-generator, that was loaded with its
maximum rating power of the  generator (1kW in this case).

What do they claim they have achieved?
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: hartiberlin on April 26, 2010, 03:57:40 AM
The last message from Oliver for today translated into proper english:

We just wanted finally to connect just a bigger load to the generator and see
what will come out of it.

And just to put the AC/DC power supply which powers the ANTON cells as the load onto the
generator was of course the most logical use.

But we were very suprised, that it worked so well and
now have even ourself to figure it out why this worked so well right away ..
 ;D

We even didn´t just wanted OU, but search for a better alternative energy method and efficiency..

There are some strange effects that we need to understand ourselves  first:

Sometimes the gas smells slightly of ammonia,
although no such chemical are in play.

We only fill up Anton only half  full with electrolyte
so that more dense water can be  decomposed.

The Bubbler is more cold than warm.

ANTON itself is only lukewarm.

Even after a very short operation "Anton" sucks 500ml water from the bubbler,
which, according to Darmstadt University of Technology can be a reason that it has
a high concentration of "nascent hydrogen" in it.

Probably we made something right by mistake or by the first time. !?
 ;D
So far we have only done that, what other people have talked about for years...


The ones who wants to a temperature measurements, please send us a thermal camera.

The ones who want to see the loud monster run for hours without to annoy the
other neighbors should bribe the landlord,
because we do it in a regular office with normal office neighbors
and they need to focus onto their work.

The neighbors are not interested in a water motor when the house rumbles.
 >:(

Frankly, we actually don´t care what computer users think
that never have held a screwdriver in their hands....
 ;D

Except for the last changes we have from the beginning documented everything here in the german overunity.de forum
and later also on YouTube.

Enough documented , so that others can follow.

We are even still amazed , that the engine runs indoors at all just with water and on HHO gas
and has no emissions other than hot air and a few dropplets of water.. !

It is all  open source and we need to move on and others
need to build up on it, so we hope that others will help us and
we will move on together.

So long, Oliver.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on April 26, 2010, 04:10:32 AM
No, not clear at all. The last text doesn't make it clearer either. Also, they say it's an open source project bit actually it isn't. What is the construction of the electrolysis cell exactly? What exact stainless steel are the electrodes made from? How were they prepared. And, again, what is the exact claim? Using an electrolysis cell as a load of a generator or seeing a motor of this kind work on a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen, if that's what's claimed, as it appears from the text, doesn't seem too much of an achievement. Something is missing. Too many question for someone to start replicating it.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: hartiberlin on April 26, 2010, 04:50:58 AM
I don't understand this:

What do they claim they have achieved?

Selfrunning as shown in the video !

The documentation is all scattered in different threads
at overunity.de and still needs to be translated into english.

It is mainly an open source  project by a few german overunity.de members,
mainly Oliver and Valentin.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on April 26, 2010, 05:50:47 AM
Selfrunning as shown in the video !

The documentation is all scattered in different threads
at overunity.de and still needs to be translated into english.

It is mainly an open source  project by a few german overunity.de members,
mainly Oliver and Valentin.

Oh, I see. That's why these bits and pieces don't go together well somehow. Do they have any contiguous document explaining what they've done in a manner conducive to replication? This seems like something extremely interesting but the poor and scattered presentation serves it no justice and may ruin it.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: hartiberlin on April 26, 2010, 06:04:21 AM
As always when funding lacks and it is only run on a hobby budget
you spend more time making new devices and experiments
before you start to document all in a resonable manner...

Give them a few more days time after these exhausting days of experimentations
and hard work..

If you want to replicate, just get yourself an Anton HHO cell
or another one, that can generate 6 Liters per minute HHO gas
with around 800 to 900 Watts Electrical input energy
and then try to modify a motor-generator as they have shown
in the videos.
This is all pretty well documented in the videos already.
No problem to follow it or not to understand it...
It is very easily done, if you follow the videos.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on April 26, 2010, 06:13:48 AM
Well, I don't think the videos reveal what an Anton cell really is. On the face of it certainly is trivial but there should be aspects which make it distinct from a common electrolysis cell, if the effect they claim is real. The electrochemical systems are very temperamental and mostly irreproducible so one has to really know what the conditions of the experiment are. When you say get yourself an Anton cell do you mean I can purchase it from somewhere? To manufacture one just by seeing it in the video is impossible if it's a non-trivial cell.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on April 26, 2010, 06:23:24 AM
If you inspect the electrochemical literature you'll see that the researchers couldn't agree for decades on the values of, say, the hydrogen overpotential until the Frumkin school in Russia and that of John Bockris here in the US finally began to obtain reproducible results. Too bad the electrochemistry in the States is like an orphan (they aren't too welcome in the chemical society here so they formed their own electrochemical society). It's the future of chemistry but is too complicated and people prefer easier areas to work in, with less investment and labor (thinking) and more rewarding.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: vrand on April 26, 2010, 06:24:38 AM
I am still waiting for an  exact confirmation
from Oliver and Valentin, but it seems to be so...

He said it ran a little unstable and the motor accelerated too much,
so he had to shut it down after 40 seconds, cause he did not want to
blow his DC power supply.

The voltage output of the generator is not enough stabilized...

But it seems to be a elfrunning system only needing water.

Here is his latest message, before he went to bed:


http://www.overunity.de/index.php?topic=528.msg8593#msg8593

Regards, Stefan.

Hi Stefan,

The Google translation of your German link mentions that they smelled Ammonia!

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.de%2Findex.php%3Ftopic%3D528.msg8593%23msg8593&sl=de&tl=en&hl=&ie=UTF-8 (http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.overunity.de%2Findex.php%3Ftopic%3D528.msg8593%23msg8593&sl=de&tl=en&hl=&ie=UTF-8)

Quote
Antw: ANTON provides an engine: First experiments
«Reply # 83 on: Today at 00:13:52»


There are some strange effects that we ourselves understand it first.
Sometimes the gas smells slightly of ammonia,
although no such chemical is in play.

They also mentioned they recirculated the exhaust gas back into the engine, along with adding the 6LPM HHO gases.  The exhaust gases have lots of NOx's to be converted to Ammonia NH3 and maybe even N2O nitrous oxide, used in racing cars to boost engine power.

Hoping to learn more on their design so we can recreate this discovery.

Keep up the good work!! 

Best regards, Mike R.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on April 26, 2010, 06:29:19 AM
Could it be that the smell is of ozone. I mentioned it earlier but they have to carry out kinetic studies to characterize the behavior of their electrodes at these current densities.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on April 26, 2010, 06:38:57 AM
Stefan,

Will it be possible, after they take the so much needed break from their intense work, to invite these researchers here in this forum for a more in depth discussion?
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: hartiberlin on April 26, 2010, 06:51:19 AM
Hi Omnibus,
you can study for instance the board and postings over here:

http://www.overunity.de/index.php?board=106.0

for pictures and PDF files.

Surely it would help, if you could understand the German
text, but why not use Google translator...

Here is a picture of one plate from the Anton cell
from old tests ( abusing it.. with wrong electrolytes)

The problem with the Anton maker is, that they
don´t speak very well English and prefer to stay
on the German forum. So we need
some more people who help with the translations..
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: vrand on April 26, 2010, 07:06:17 AM
Hi Omnibus,
you can study for instance the board and postings over here:

http://www.overunity.de/index.php?board=106.0

for pictures and PDF files.

Surely it would help, if you could understand the German
text, but why not use Google translator...

Here is a picture of one plate from the Anton cell
from old tests ( abusing it.. with wrong electrolytes)

The problem with the Anton maker is, that they
don´t speak very well English and prefer to stay
on the German forum. So we need
some more people who help with the translations..

Hi Stefan,

They mentioned the exhaust gas is recirculated back into the intake on the Google translator?  If so I did not see it their videos.  Is this correct?

Best regards, Mike R.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: hartiberlin on April 26, 2010, 07:07:28 AM
Here are a few more pics of the Anton cell kit.

You can buy these kits with different amount of plates.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: hartiberlin on April 26, 2010, 07:15:22 AM
Hi Stefan,

They mentioned the exhaust gas is recirculated back into the intake on the Google translator?  If so I did not see it their videos.  Is this correct?

Best regards, Mike R.

Sorry, I don´t know yet,
I have also only seen the video until now and only
called Oliver for a few minutes, but we did not talk about this.

They have probably done many different experiments,
but I guess in the videos they don´t feed the hot output water vapour gases
back...It just heats their office for free ! :)
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: hartiberlin on April 26, 2010, 07:17:27 AM
Maybe I should have posted this video already earlier:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSknOBL2It4

Don´t be too excited and wonder why you also see the C64 computer there.
(called the old Breadboard box !)
It is only there, cause it also created a revolution, the COMPUTER REVOLUTION,
when we were young !  ;D ;D ;D

BTW, I like how the dog looks at Anton at the end :) LoL  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: hartiberlin on April 26, 2010, 07:21:22 AM
Here is another Anton cell building video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IBL_gfmj04

Hope this helps make it clearer...
I have already seen it some month ago...
so I did not think to post it earlier...sorry..
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on April 26, 2010, 07:24:51 AM
Well, the language barrier is a terrible factor. And it's a shame that I've studied German for so long back in my childhood, have been so many times in Germany and know practically nothing. Now, at such moments one feels what loss that is. Translators are confusing and I try to avoid them. So, we'll have to see how to communicate. I'm very interested in this question, as you can tell from my activity here.

As for Anton cells, I've never heard of such cells before. Are they an invention of these researchers? Is there a schematic to see what the exact construction of these cells is. The power supply is also not trivial. Is this a commercial device or they have built it themselves? The generator -- what will a more expensive generator bring about more from what the one that s being used provides? I guess the valves and the way the gas mixture is prepared is also of substantial importance.

I don't know why they feel uneasy, if I'm reading them correctly, that this is just what they call it a "proof of concept". A carefully done laboratory experiment is just fine. If they can readily reproduce the self-sustaining state of the device even at that level of their budget that would be a seminal achievement. I don't know what their intentions are but reaching such level is the goal for many researchers, leaving the development to other better equipped entities. See what Steorn are doing for instance or BlackLight technologies -- they always claim they are not producers and all they want is to license the technology to parties that have the means to do that. That's if you're commercially minded. Otherwise, the scientific fact is an end in itself and most researchers, like I said (me included), are happy with that outcome and nothing more.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on April 26, 2010, 07:28:22 AM
Quote
You can buy these kits with different amount of plates.

Where can you buy them from? Do you have a link?
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: hartiberlin on April 26, 2010, 07:31:18 AM
As I already posted at:

www.anton-shop.com

but their sales form is not working right in
this moment and it probably also has the wrong price,
so I will ask Oliver when it will be fixed...
and post it again then here.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: vrand on April 26, 2010, 07:32:30 AM
Sorry, I don´t know yet,
I have also only seen the video until now and only
called Oliver for a few minutes, but we did not talk about this.

They have probably done many different experiments,
but I guess in the videos they don´t feed the hot output water vapour gases
back...It just heats their office for free ! :)

Thats great, make electricity and warm your house at the same time!! ;)

- What kind of spark plug are they using?
- Using extra high voltage ignition, over 60kv? 
- Are they making a "plasma spark" or just a normal spark?

Best regards, Mike R.



Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on April 26, 2010, 07:34:21 AM
Stefan,

Thanks a lot for these videos. That's exactly what we should have started with. Now, who peoduces these cells, where can you buy them from?
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on April 26, 2010, 07:38:27 AM
As I already posted at:

www.anton-shop.com

but their sales form is not working right in
this moment and it probably also has the wrong price,
so I will ask Oliver when it will be fixed...
and post it again then here.

Thanks for the link. So, you'll post the updated info here in this thread. I'll follow it with interest.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: hartiberlin on April 26, 2010, 07:45:19 AM
Thats great, make electricity and warm your house at the same time!! ;)

- What kind of spark plug are they using?
- Using extra high voltage ignition, over 60kv? 
- Are they making a "plasma spark" or just a normal spark?

Best regards, Mike R.

I guess just a normal sparkplug of this bought chinese
motor-generator.
They just redesigned the ignition timing to supress the waste spark
and control the fire angle with this setup.
I think that they are using a normal car ignition coil there.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on April 26, 2010, 07:52:32 AM
Very nicely built, indeed. I couldn't understand, however, what the current efficiency is when shown in that video where they're measuring the volume of the gas. He was explaining something but because it was in German couldn't understand it. Was there anything special about the collected gas compared to the coulombs the have passed for the duration of the test?
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: hartiberlin on April 26, 2010, 07:57:52 AM
This was an earlier test with just a smaller Anton cell,
(less plates).

The current setup with the selfrunning video uses 3 Anton cells in parallel with more plates
and better efficiency.

I don´t know yet, what the electrolyte concentration was, but they will
probably soon reveal this and more parameters...
These were just the last tests they have done yeasterday and just posted them
in a video.
Now they have to measure it all in detail themself....

Documentation is always the hardest and annoying part of it all ! ;) ;D
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: vrand on April 26, 2010, 08:23:33 AM
I guess just a normal sparkplug of this bought chinese
motor-generator.
They just redesigned the ignition timing to supress the waste spark
and control the fire angle with this setup.
I think that they are using a normal car ignition coil there.

Regards, Stefan.

Thank you Stefan.  This is another area of research they can try out in the future.

Aquapulser's RPG 4700
http://www.aquapulser.com/performance_ignition/ (http://www.aquapulser.com/performance_ignition/)

Aquapulser videos showing the plasma spark and dyno testing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Cd2Oug1wk0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Cd2Oug1wk0)

The idea is that a plasma completely ignites the gases HHO + N2 + O2 + HV plasma => H1 + N20 + NH3 + 03 + Combustion => N2 + H2O + O2

If they are smelling ammonia then it sounds like they do not have a complete combustion. It also means that they could get MORE power out if they did have a more complete combustion.  ;)

If they had the funds, it would be great to take this working unit AS IS (do not change anything) to the local university to have the exhaust gas analyzed. Then compare the spark ignition to a higher voltage coil, and to the Aquapulser ignition.  To see if there is any increase in power output for the same gases input.

Best regards, Mike R.   
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: vrand on April 26, 2010, 09:36:53 AM
Thank you Stefan.  This is another area of research they can try out in the future.

Aquapulser's RPG 4700
http://www.aquapulser.com/performance_ignition/ (http://www.aquapulser.com/performance_ignition/)

Aquapulser videos showing the plasma spark and dyno testing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Cd2Oug1wk0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Cd2Oug1wk0)

The idea is that a plasma completely ignites the gases HHO + N2 + O2 + HV plasma => H1 + N20 + NH3 + 03 + Combustion => N2 + H2O + O2

If they are smelling ammonia then it sounds like they do not have a complete combustion. It also means that they could get MORE power out if they did have a more complete combustion.  ;)

If they had the funds, it would be great to take this working unit AS IS (do not change anything) to the local university to have the exhaust gas analyzed. Then compare the spark ignition to a higher voltage coil, and to the Aquapulser ignition.  To see if there is any increase in power output for the same gases input.

Best regards, Mike R.   

Here are some high performance spark plugs:

BRISK PREMIUM LGS SPARK PLUG
http://www.briskusa.com/products.htm#premium (http://www.briskusa.com/products.htm#premium)

Brisk Premium LGS spark plug has been developed after two-year cooperation with Lamborghini Morori Marini. This spark plug utilizes extremely long glide-spark and massive integrated side electrode. Massive integrated side electrode ensures superior heat removal from active part of the spark plug even in the most extreme conditions, therefore eliminating electrode burn off seen on conventional spark plugs in race applications. Extremely long glide spark (almost 3mm) protrudes deep into combustion chamber, carries more potential charge and is unshielded by the conventional side ground electrode. The air and fuel mixture is ignited more spontaneously and flame front spread is unrestricted and more uniform.

The idea is the complete combustion of the gases with HV ignition and special spark plugs.

Regards, Mike R.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: vrand on April 26, 2010, 09:54:56 AM
Hi!

To stop all the wild guesses about this topic I just want to write some lines.

The DryCells used are the ANTON Cells. The cells are an open source project.
The engine is a 4 stroke 1 cylinder 80 ccm gasoline engine (2.8 hp, 1000 Watt max from the generator) adapted to oxyhydrogen by ourself.
The ignition is also selfmade with parts from the junk yard. No wasted spark and the timing can be changed. No plasma spark.
The engine runs with a HHO and air mix. The HHO from the ANTON cells goes through a bubbler and a backflash-arrestor as you can see in my videos.
 

With the ANTON cells we had no problems at all.
But there are some problems with the controll of the small engine:
The engine is small and has insufficient flywheel mass so it is very "nervous".
Due to the backflash-arrestor we always have a little bit preassure in the cell and the bubbler. So it takes a few seconds if we adjust the current.
The ratio of the HHO and the air must always be correct and must be adjusted by hand.
The original speed controller of the engine can not be used, because we removed the leverage and the carburetor.
And so on...

Here are our original videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/MrEntelecheia (http://www.youtube.com/user/MrEntelecheia)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6bw0dlxDnQ&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6bw0dlxDnQ&feature=related)

Here we used 3 ANTON cells with 21 electrodes each. We used about 800 - 900 Watt from the power supply (pulsating DC at 100 Hz). The electrolyte concentration is about 3% KOH.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZ9azEA54Q8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZ9azEA54Q8)

In this video I am not sure if the display of the voltage and the current is correct. Because of the controll problems with the engine (the rpm goes up and down) we are not able to deliver constant 230 V at 50 Hz (standard in Germany) to the electronic power supply all the time.


So as you can see, we had a great success    ;D    but there is still a lot of work to do. So please don't be too euphoric.
Now we need a better engine and good control circuits to get it running stable to do exact measurements.

If there are some important news I will post it here.
But it can take some time and we have a very limited budget. I am sorry about that.

Cheers!

Valentin

Hi Valentin,

Thank you very much for posting your video's and describing your design of your VERY interesting experiments!

Do you have a Paypal account so other researchers can Donate to you funds so you can continue your experiments?

We all look forward to your experiments with HHO + N2 + O2 (air) to fuel a engine generator set!

Best regards, Mike R.

p.s. if possible could you try a HV coil like:
60kv coils from www.summittracing.com (http://www.summittracing.com) for about $30
the part # SUM-G5220   
60,000v ignition coil
coil resistance: 1200 ohms
external ballast resistor: 1.5 ohms

Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: tagor on April 26, 2010, 10:23:08 AM

But yes. It is a  "breakthrough" .
because so far nobody has yet demonstrated as far as I know
a motor-generator, that was loaded with its
maximum rating power of the  generator (1kW in this case).
hi , Stepan
yes the french Mirabella has done it with his motor/generator and 80% water
look at the french Nexus
 
http://www.econologie.com/forums/album_page.php?pic_id=564 (http://www.econologie.com/forums/album_page.php?pic_id=564)
http://www.econologie.com/forums/album_page.php?pic_id=565 (http://www.econologie.com/forums/album_page.php?pic_id=565)
http://www.econologie.com/forums/album_page.php?pic_id=566 (http://www.econologie.com/forums/album_page.php?pic_id=566)
 
the were a demo in paris last year with press and official representative of university
CERNTEA ( patnership of french panacea ) has to do independant verification on this claim
you can go to see him , it is south of france , way to go to spain ...
 
http://cerntea.canalblog.com/archives/2010/02/26/17059117.html (http://cerntea.canalblog.com/archives/2010/02/26/17059117.html)
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: sushimoto on April 26, 2010, 11:02:05 AM
Hello Folks,

This is probably the right time to consolidate
and to bring the puzzle together:

NH3, HHO, SPAD/Geet, ionization and Robert Krupa's Firestorm Spark Plugs.

best,
sushi
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on April 26, 2010, 12:26:38 PM

If exhaust is going back into the engine, as with Paul Pantone's 'Geet' system, then there is a reactor/transmutation type effect at work here.

Pantone has noted some unexpected strange properties in his "reactor rods" due to the 'Geet' process.

Regards...

Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: tagor on April 26, 2010, 12:56:15 PM
If exhaust is going back into the engine, as with Paul Pantone's 'Geet' system, then there is a reactor/transmutation type effect at work here.

Pantone has noted some unexpected strange properties in his "reactor rods" due to the 'Geet' process.

Regards...

yes Mirabella can do it , it is a pantone likes
he said that , when the reactor is hot , the motor cans run with water only
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: ramset on April 26, 2010, 01:42:20 PM
Valentin
Quote:
But it can take some time and we have a very limited budget. I am sorry about that.
------------------------------
Can those of us that wish to, "donate" to your work?
You come highly recommended and your goals of finding an alternate sustainable energy source are what this is all about!
  No reason to waste time because of finance,you are sharing all. I am willing to donate what ever I can afford to
your research

Paypal??

Chet

 
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on April 26, 2010, 03:37:50 PM
Hi Valentin,

Thanks for coming to this forum. Very nice work. Wish you all the success. You deserve it.

Can you please explain what the current efficiency was in the video where you were measuring the volume of gas. You might have explained it there but it's in German and couldn't understand what you're saying.

Also, have you done calorimetric measurements of the outcoming gas to see if its enthalpy differs from what's expected? The effect should either be due to a violation of Faraday's law, that is, producing more gram-equivalents of gas than the predicted by the coulombs that have passed through the cell or due to a hitherto undetected higher enthalpy of the obtained gases. This has to be established even prior to getting into the trouble of using it as fuel for a motor-generator. The latter is telling indeed but seems more complicated technically to have the test rigorously done. In a calorimetric test you don't have to rely on cheap Chinese junk and is financially less draining.

Would it be possible to send me a cell to study for a month or two which I'll return to you when finished?
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: sushimoto on April 26, 2010, 05:42:10 PM
Maybe a little hint to the crackheads on the issue?:

One of the cells was filled with UREA in pevious tests of several electrolytes.
One of the other cells was freshly build and the plates where cleaned with acetone.
For the latest setup, all the cells were filled with a 5% KOH solution.

Is it possible, that some remaining N-molecules combined with
nascend hydrogen to  something else like N2H4 for the extra-bang?

Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: ramset on April 26, 2010, 07:36:58 PM
Sushimoto
is this the cell you were working on?[at energetic]
Or do I have you confused with someone else?
[if so my apologies].

Chet
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: mscoffman on April 26, 2010, 08:01:17 PM
I hate to correct people on terminology but I'll say it for the sake of those who might want to use it correctly -- it's non-stoichiometric and not non-stochastic. Stoichiometry is the proportion set in stone between the moles of reactants and the products given by a chemical (electrochemical) reaction. Stoichiometry is an expression of one of the basic laws of Chemistry -- the law of constant proportions and has nothing to do with stochastics -- the area of mathematics which studies random processes and probabilities therefrom.


You are correct I do projects in both areas and my brain was wired for statistics.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: vrand on April 26, 2010, 08:21:58 PM

yes Mirabella can do it , it is a pantone likes
he said that , when the reactor is hot , the motor cans run with water only

Yes, they said that they did run the exhaust back into the intake. No mention if it improved the running of the engine.

This project has been going on since at least January of this year. Its slow going building process to reach this stage yesterday with the video of powering the 1000w loads.

The engine seems to be the limiting factor along with time and money.  The regulation of the HHO +air gases input is the problem, so that the engine runs smoothly. Currently they needed 2 people to run the engine, one to adjust the gas inputs and the other to demonstrate the electrical loading.

Maybe a simple Natural Gas conversion kit that has a gas regulator would work. Or can buy a genset that already has the Natural Gas kit built in:

Triple-Fuel Honda Powered 8,750 Watt w/ Electric Start - Runs on propane, natural gas and gasoline right out of the box! No mechanical alterations are necessary - simply change your fuel source!
http://cgi.ebay.com/Triple-Fuel-Honda-Powered-Generator-w-Electric-Start-/390187050383?cmd=ViewItem&pt=BI_Generators&hash=item5ad8f5e58f (http://cgi.ebay.com/Triple-Fuel-Honda-Powered-Generator-w-Electric-Start-/390187050383?cmd=ViewItem&pt=BI_Generators&hash=item5ad8f5e58f)

With small engines you still need to advance the ignition timing to TDC and currently there is no units that allow adjustment. Also the removal of the "waste spark" that causes back fire when using HHO. Their setup using a standard car ignition coil, the large and small plastic timing gears and wood lever is one way to adjust the ignition timing and get rid of the waste spark. 

Regards, Mike R. 
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: mscoffman on April 26, 2010, 09:17:03 PM
Here is a video if you are interested in running an internal combustion
engine on hydrogen. What this person does in the video and what they
fellows have done is very similar.

Hydrogen Fuel Engine Fundamentals Parts #1 thru 10 link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jo88bRN8vFw

You have got to get to fact that air is not pure oxygen. So the
oxygen and hydrogen to the engine may be in stochiometric quantities
but the mixture is not. The engine is designed to run on fuel air mix
and therefore some air is gated in.

---

The experiment needs to be improved as follows;

a) You need a needle value in the fuel line to act as a throttle. You should
couple the throttle to the Hall Effect switch in a way that controls the RPM
of the motor. This will set the 50 Hertz line frequency correctly in the
generator. The Voltage Regulator in the generator are generally resonant
circuits I think so the frequency instability will negatively affect the voltage
stability.

b)You need a hydrogen accumulator and a pressure sensor that controls
how much energy is being gated to the electrolyser. When the pressure
goes down in the accumulator the electrolyser cells should work harder
the bring it back up. For this control you should use a bulk 40VDC supply
rather than a regulated one so that the output voltage follows input.
If the transformer of the power supply doesn't like continuous TRIAC
controls then try using cycle skipping.

c) You need two Variac's variable AC auto-transformers. These are manually
adjusted to split the generators output power between the load and the
electrolyser. The concept is since P=E*I, as you increase the AC voltage
slightly up or down then the power on that path will follow along. Diesel
Electric Locomotives operate this way (sans hydrogen of course) and use
a variable transformer as a Continuously Variable Transmission.

Of course stabilising the feedback loop will do nothing if the electrolyser is not
producing at least somewhat above Faraday hydrogen and oxygen amounts.
It doesn't, by the way, make sense that non-stochiometric quantities of gas
would come from the electrolyser because the feed chemical is water and
if CF Cold Fusion is source of the excess energy, one is never going to see
reaction products because their quantities is so small.

If you have an option get a "Digital" Generator Set as it has a bunch
of features that would make it easier to control the feedback loop.
It essentially works the way the feedback loop should look!

I hope these fellows go on to improve their demonstration because they
started it. :D  I would rather have self-running proof of overunity energy
with a Carnot perfect gas engine rather than measurements anyhow. So
far what they have looks very good.

:S:MarkSCoffman
Title: Feature page for the Self-Looped Anton HHO Cell open source project
Post by: sterlinga on April 27, 2010, 05:57:08 AM
I've created a feature page on this at http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:Self-Looped_Anton_HHO_Cell_System

Self-Looped Anton HHO Cell System - Some researchers in Germany, Oliver and Valnetin, have excited the forums with their announcement of being able to self-run a 1000-watt generator from the HHO gas generated from their electrolysis process. So the electrolysis unit produces HHO gas which runs a genset (an engine connected to an alternator that produces electricity), and the electricity produced then runs the electrolysis unit. (PESWiki; April 27, 2010)


Feel free to use this page to organize all the great material coming through this forum.

It's a publicly editable site.  Just log in and edit.

@Stefan, Thanks for all your hard work in posting this info here.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: broli on April 27, 2010, 12:28:58 PM
You shouldn't worry about being limited in resources. Like you mentioned, there are quite some cheap modifications you can still apply to make this cheap inefficient motor more efficient. I also recommend you look into;  Somender Singh's Design to Improve Turbulence in Combustion Chambers by Creating a Vortex (http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Singh_Combustion_Chamber_Turbulence). This is a very cheap method of increasing the efficiency of your motor.

As time passes by and more people get into this, the resources will come to you like magic  ;) . In your case the best gift would imo be a Massive Yet Tiny engine (http://www.peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Massive_Yet_Tiny_%28MYT%29_Engine).

Keep up the good work guys.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Rapadura on April 27, 2010, 01:25:28 PM
Could this cheap chinese motor run for just 30 seconds with the output being used to run the 3 Anton cells and light up a small fluorescent lamp at the same time? That should be overunity.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: sushimoto on April 27, 2010, 02:19:46 PM
Oh no. No Overunity please.
... was my first thought

All effords should go to the account of "Effisciency" and not to Hypes.
Otherwise, we will forever recognized as some "wierd hillbillies" only.

What is the best efficency, the industry has to offer?
We just have to be better than that in order to be taken serious.

Best wishes,
Oliver
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on April 27, 2010, 03:49:50 PM
Hi Valentin,

As I said, I strongly recommend that you don't waste time and money on expensive tests before you study the Anton cell thoroughly with the available apparatus. The video you showed indicates you can measure the volume of the evolved gas. You can also measure the coulombs that have passed to produce that amount. Comparing the two experimental quantities will reveal whether or not the amount of product is more than expected. If it isn't then the only other possible way to get an OU effect by burning the produced gas is if it really has greater caloric value than expected. This is also easily tested, rigorously at that, by calorimetry rather than by burning it in expensive and inefficient motors.

Like I said, I'd be willing to look into it but, unfortunately, the price of an Anton cell is too high for me to invest for the purposes of exploring it.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: sterlinga on April 27, 2010, 03:51:09 PM
Hi Mr. Allan,

thank you very much for creating the site on peswiki.com.

I am sorry to say that there are some mistakes and some older pictures (for example the HHO gas injection).

So please let me know how to change the content of the page. 

Thanks!

Valentin

Hi Valentin

It's relatively simple to edit the pages at PESWiki.  Just click on the "login" link at the top, right of any page to join in.

~50% of what I know today (six years later)  I learned in the first two hours of poking around in the markup code at Wikipedia.com  I just had one screen open with the code, and another screen open with the public view, and it was easy to see what code did what. 

Here are just a few codes that we use all the time:
'''bold''' or <b>bold</b>
''italics'' or <i>italics</i>
== Headings ==
*bullets
: indent
[url External Hyperlinks]
[[url|Internal Hyperlinks]] (within peswiki)
[[Image:filename.jpg]]
<br>
<youtube>ID</youtube>

To upload a new image, just click on the "upload file" link near the bottom of the left hand navigation column.

To edit, just click on the "edit" link to the right of the heading of the section you want to change.  If you want to change more than one section, it's usually easier to just click the "edit" tab at the top of the page, which opens the entire page for editing.

After you've made the changes you want, click on "preview" at the bottom of the edit box to see how the page appears with your changes, make any additional changes if needed, then click on "save".

 Tip: don't start a line of text with a space or it will create a little table with no auto scroll of the text.

To create a new page, either create a new internal hyperlink then click on it; or just enter the new name into the browser address bar following the /index.php/.  Everything up to that point is the same in every url (note that "/index.php/" can be replaced with "/energy/").

For project urls, we recommend the same name beginning, e.g. [[OS:Anton HHO:New Page Name]]

If you're wondering what the things are inside the {{double curly brackets}}, those are templates which pull from the content of a template page.  You change the template page, and the content is automatically updated wherever that template is used.  I use this function for our news bullets so that if there is a correction to the bullet, I only have to change it once, not every place where it occurs.

Don't worry about messing up a page.  Every page has a "history" tab that can be used to revert to previous editions.  And if two people happen to be working on the same page at the same time and post conflicting edits, you will be shown the difference so you can then reapply your changes without losing them.  Still, it's not a bad idea to copy the page contents before saving down.

All changes made to the site are chronicled on the "Recent Changes" page at http://peswiki.com/index.php/Special:Recentchanges (you will find a link to this near the top of the left navigation column)

It is possible to protect pages so that only sysops or bureaucrats can modify them.  I do this with some of the key pages and templates such as footers.  All it takes to become a sysop is to demonstrate that you know what you're doing, and that you are a trusted friend of the field, and to ask for the privilege.

As you run into questions about how to do things that are not mentioned in this brief overview, our help page can be of assistance:
http://peswiki.com/energy/Help:Contents

And of course, in your case, given the key role you are playing here, I'd be more than glad to answer your questions directly.  My contact info can be found easily at any of our sites.  See http://SterlingDAllan.com

If you want to build a new feature page, here's how to do it:
http://peswiki.com/energy/Help:How_to_Build_a_Profile_Page_for_a_Company_or_Technology

Feel free to participate in making corrections on the site, adding new info, posting comments on the "discussion" page connected to each page, or even building new pages.  It's really quite easy.  I'd love for you to feel like you're part of the development of this great breakthrough energy community resource.  Who knows, as you build out your own profile page, that may end up being the first thing that comes up in Google when people search your name.

Welcome to PESWiki editorship.  It's as simple as that.

Thanks for your interest in helping us make PESWiki: "The Wikipedia of Breakthrough Clean Energy".

And thanks for giving me a reason to finally create this simple set of instructions, which I've posted at http://www.peswiki.com/index.php/Help:EZ_Start

-- Sterling
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: sterlinga on April 27, 2010, 04:03:03 PM
Oh no. No Overunity please.
... was my first thought

All effords should go to the account of "Effisciency" and not to Hypes.
Otherwise, we will forever recognized as some "wierd hillbillies" only.

What is the best efficency, the industry has to offer?
We just have to be better than that in order to be taken serious.

Best wishes,
Oliver

Hi Oliver,

Don't worry about the phrase "overunity."  It just means that more energy is coming out than what was put in by the operator -- meaning that free environmental energy has been harnessed in the process.  It's not voodoo.  It's new science in the making.  It's a process of discovering a new source of reliable energy for the planet.

There are several theories about how this might be happening in the case of HHO or Brown's gas.

For starters, take a look at
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Hydroxy_or_HHO_Injection_Systems#Theory

Keep up the great work.

Sterling
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on April 27, 2010, 04:12:41 PM
Hi Oliver,

Don't worry about the phrase "overunity."  It just means that more energy is coming out than what was put in by the operator -- meaning that free environmental energy has been harnessed in the process.  It's not voodoo.  It's new science in the making.  It's a process of discovering a new source of reliable energy for the planet.

There are several theories about how this might be happening in the case of HHO or Brown's gas.

For starters, take a look at
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Hydroxy_or_HHO_Injection_Systems#Theory

Keep up the great work.

Sterling

There's no evidence yet to claim that and it's misleading to set up internet pages giving the appearance that it has already been proven let alone create theories to "explain" it.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: haithar on April 27, 2010, 04:36:15 PM
There's no evidence yet to claim that and it's misleading to set up internet pages giving the appearance that it has already been proven let alone create theories to "explain" it.
i thought the same and commented the examiner article.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: mr2 on April 27, 2010, 04:51:50 PM
This looks interesting.

A couple of questions:
How much water is needed per kw worth of HHO?

Is it shure it is selfrunning, and not running of the HHO produced by the grid at start?

It is said to consume 900 Watt and output is 1000 Watt.
The motor is very poor.
The generator is poor.
The adjustment of HHO into the motor is poor.

There is possible of much improvement.

One suggestion is to use a industrial sterlingengine. Since it is gas that is produced, the combustionchamber does not need to be so big. The chamber also could contain lava-stones to have a buffer of heat. Then the only thing needed is an electronic controller to regulate voltage to the Anton-cell and a temperature sensor in the combustionchamber. Maybe even a ignitor in the combustionchamber for automatic on/off.

The sterlingengine is easier to control. It only needs heat. And it is said that the sterlingengine has a higher efficiency than a petrol/diesel engine.


MR2
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: haithar on April 27, 2010, 05:34:23 PM
This looks interesting.
It is said to consume 900 Watt and output is 1000 Watt.
The motor is very poor.
The generator is poor.
The adjustment of HHO into the motor is poor.

There is possible of much improvement.
Why is everyone overlooking the part that it was only 40 seconds and the energy stored in the system in that time may very well have been enough to run it for this time. They said they needed pressure in the cell because of the bubbler, there was very likely to be hydrogen for the motor even if the power to the anton cell was lower than before.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: mr2 on April 27, 2010, 06:26:34 PM
No, I'm not overlooking the fact that it only runs in 40 seconds.

It is obviously energy stored at the start. It would not start if there wasn't.
That's the reason for my question: "Is it sure it is selfrunning, and not running of the HHO produced by the grid at start?"

That's also the reason to my suggestion that they should use a motor that is more easy to control. And then have a motor running for longer time.


MR2
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on April 27, 2010, 06:47:52 PM
No, I'm not overlooking the fact that it only runs in 40 seconds.

It is obviously energy stored at the start. It would not start if there wasn't.
That's the reason for my question: "Is it sure it is selfrunning, and not running of the HHO produced by the grid at start?"

That's also the reason to my suggestion that they should use a motor that is more easy to control. And then have a motor running for longer time.


MR2

Better yet, like I said, is to study the current efficiency and the caloric value of the evolved gases prior to using to run motors.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Low-Q on April 27, 2010, 07:25:08 PM
No, I'm not overlooking the fact that it only runs in 40 seconds.

It is obviously energy stored at the start. It would not start if there wasn't.
That's the reason for my question: "Is it sure it is selfrunning, and not running of the HHO produced by the grid at start?"

That's also the reason to my suggestion that they should use a motor that is more easy to control. And then have a motor running for longer time.


MR2
I cannot see the engineering problems here. To control the motor you must control the current through the electrolysis. Circuits to control this is to be found easily. The circuit are sniffing on the AC generators voltage and controls the current flow through the electrolysis on that basis. How hard can it be?

Based on other claims, there is allways an explanation to why a motor doesn't work as desired. Many inventors tries to explain away the facts that prevents the motor to be a selfrunner. Adjustments are needed, wrong set of magnets, inproper ignition timing, lack of money (Please donate), etc. etc.

The same lesson every time a guy claims OU or something similar - with just a few minor adjustments. Then people are starting to ask questions. The inventor cannot reply, or provide bogus answers. Then the guy dissappear. Some inventors fools "stupid" investors, get ther money and disappear - or get cought by the police...

I'm just sceptic :)

Vidar
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: haithar on April 27, 2010, 07:39:55 PM
Well they didn't claim anything, they only made a video for the public and i thank them for that!
The issue i have is the broad coverage with assumptions which may not be true (selfrunning, self-looped, ..), if the admins on this site and peswiki would choose their news more carefully there wouldn't be such a hype every time before something gets debunked.
on the other hand nothing would be left to post in the news.  :-X
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: hartiberlin on April 27, 2010, 08:24:01 PM
No, I'm not overlooking the fact that it only runs in 40 seconds.

It is obviously energy stored at the start. It would not start if there wasn't.
That's the reason for my question: "Is it sure it is selfrunning, and not running of the HHO produced by the grid at start?"

That's also the reason to my suggestion that they should use a motor that is more easy to control. And then have a motor running for longer time.


MR2

Can´t just be the stored grid energy.
As Oliver switches off the power supply, you can see,
that the motor goes off after about 4 to 5 seconds.
So this is the maximum amount of storage.

So 35 seconds we have already seeing it run freely on just water alone.

Oliver and Valentin,
before you do something else,
please leave it as it is now and
just make a new video showing it run longer on its own
power.

Just don´t change anything yet !

Most inventors just change something and then don´t get it to work
again !

Better just leave it this way now and make first more
videos and better work on a replication model
with a new motor-generator set and try
to improve there and keep the current running model as it is,
so you can show it to others again.

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: vrand on April 27, 2010, 09:15:44 PM
Can´t just be the stored grid energy.
As Oliver switches off the power supply, you can see,
that the motor goes off after about 4 to 5 seconds.
So this is the maximum amount of storage.

So 35 seconds we have already seeing it run freely on just water alone.

Oliver and Valentin,
before you do something else,
please leave it as it is now and
just make a new video showing it run longer on its own
power.

Just don´t change anything yet !

Most inventors just change something and then don´t get it to work
again !


Better just leave it this way now and make first more
videos and better work on a replication model
with a new motor-generator set and try
to improve there and keep the current running model as it is,
so you can show it to others again.

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.

Exactly!!

Please Don´t change anything yet!

Please first try to find a Gas Regulator Valve so you can feed the HHO at a steady rate into the engine say at 2 to 5 psi pressure.  So then you can just turn the valve open more for more gas or turn the valve down for less gas input depending on the electrical generator loads.

What you have is something very special.    :)

Keep up the good work!!

We all look forward to seeing more of your tests!

Best regards, Mike R.

Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on April 27, 2010, 09:19:01 PM
Can´t just be the stored grid energy.
As Oliver switches off the power supply, you can see,
that the motor goes off after about 4 to 5 seconds.
So this is the maximum amount of storage.

So 35 seconds we have already seeing it run freely on just water alone.

Oliver and Valentin,
before you do something else,
please leave it as it is now and
just make a new video showing it run longer on its own
power.

Just don´t change anything yet !

Most inventors just change something and then don´t get it to work
again !

Better just leave it this way now and make first more
videos and better work on a replication model
with a new motor-generator set and try
to improve there and keep the current running model as it is,
so you can show it to others again.

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.

Can't agree more. Leave it as is and try to show it running longer. In the meantime, instead of spending more money, just study the produced gases, as I explained earlier. This will save you time and money.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: sterlinga on April 27, 2010, 09:30:06 PM
There's no evidence yet to claim that and it's A to set up internet pages giving the appearance that it has already been proven let alone create theories to "explain" it.

You didn't read my introduction.  I make it very clear that this is not proven yet, just interesting at this point.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: vrand on April 27, 2010, 09:49:07 PM
Here is a video if you are interested in running an internal combustion
engine on hydrogen. What this person does in the video and what they
fellows have done is very similar.

Hydrogen Fuel Engine Fundamentals Parts #1 thru 10 link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jo88bRN8vFw

You have got to get to fact that air is not pure oxygen. So the
oxygen and hydrogen to the engine may be in stochiometric quantities
but the mixture is not. The engine is designed to run on fuel air mix
and therefore some air is gated in.

---

The experiment needs to be improved as follows;

a) You need a needle value in the fuel line to act as a throttle. You should
couple the throttle to the Hall Effect switch in a way that controls the RPM
of the motor. This will set the 50 Hertz line frequency correctly in the
generator. The Voltage Regulator in the generator are generally resonant
circuits I think so the frequency instability will negatively affect the voltage
stability.

b)You need a hydrogen accumulator and a pressure sensor that controls
how much energy is being gated to the electrolyser. When the pressure
goes down in the accumulator the electrolyser cells should work harder
the bring it back up. For this control you should use a bulk 40VDC supply
rather than a regulated one so that the output voltage follows input.
If the transformer of the power supply doesn't like continuous TRIAC
controls then try using cycle skipping.

c) You need two Variac's variable AC auto-transformers. These are manually
adjusted to split the generators output power between the load and the
electrolyser. The concept is since P=E*I, as you increase the AC voltage
slightly up or down then the power on that path will follow along. Diesel
Electric Locomotives operate this way (sans hydrogen of course) and use
a variable transformer as a Continuously Variable Transmission.

Of course stabilising the feedback loop will do nothing if the electrolyser is not
producing at least somewhat above Faraday hydrogen and oxygen amounts.
It doesn't, by the way, make sense that non-stochiometric quantities of gas
would come from the electrolyser because the feed chemical is water and
if CF Cold Fusion is source of the excess energy, one is never going to see
reaction products because their quantities is so small.

If you have an option get a "Digital" Generator Set as it has a bunch
of features that would make it easier to control the feedback loop.
It essentially works the way the feedback loop should look!

I hope these fellows go on to improve their demonstration because they
started it. :D  I would rather have self-running proof of overunity energy
with a Carnot perfect gas engine rather than measurements anyhow. So
far what they have looks very good.

:S:MarkSCoffman

Thank you for posting the Roy Mcalister Hydrogen video link, I enjoyed seeing how simple it is to convert an engine to run on bottled Hydrogen.   :)

Roy does a fine job over the last 40 years in educating people on the benefits of Hydrogen and that the internal combustion engine is still the most efficient way of using Hydrogen!

It would be great if Roy got into using "Browns Gas" and running his engines on HHO.  ;)

Best regards, Mike R. 
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: mscoffman on April 27, 2010, 10:06:37 PM

I think now it is time to start a complete new project:

We have one of the best HHO cells (ANTON),
but we also need a highly efficient engine. There are many articels on peswiki.com about much more convenient motors that could be used.
Also a plasma ignition and special spark plugs (Krupa: firestorm, Pulstar Plugs, ... ) can improve the efficiency further.


@mogli

No! Make what you have there work! We want to see a
self-running in system of less than optimal efficiency…So
that we know for sure that there is energy gain *inside*
the Anton cells.

If you make plasma mods to the motor then there will
be overunity gain inside the motor….we want it inside
the Anton cells. There is no higher efficiency motor
due to Carnot heat engine inefficiency. This engine
is not nervous, just un-thottled.

There is higher efficiency inside fuel cells…but I want
that extra efficiency so that I know I can get the
residual energy myself by buying an Anton electrolyser.

Don’t try to eat the buyer's lunch…Prove that the is overunity
inside what you are currently making…Anton cells. Or I will simply
wait to buy a total system package from you …and it will *never*
show up… and then nothing will have been proven. I don’t want
to see overunity energy inside an ICE engine because I don’t
want an Ice Engine. I want overunity energy.

You can’t give guarantees of overunity energy because in court
some high profile person will testify that it doesn’t exist. Create
the proof, then sell what you currently build based on implicit truth.

You don’t have to listen to me, then some MIB will run your unit
for example; on pure light water and either way - it won’t work.
Because you are not designing products according to fundamental
scientific/engineering principles.

---

Currently his system loop instability is masking overunity energy production
in his electrolyser cells and he needs to unmask this information - as in the
truth. Does overunity occur when engine draws a vacuum on Anton cells?

---

Exactly!!

Please Don´t change anything yet!

Please first try to find a Gas Regulator Valve so you can feed the HHO at a steady rate into the engine say at 2 to 5 psi pressure.  So then you can just turn the valve open more for more gas or turn the valve down for less gas input depending on the electrical generator loads.

What you have is something very special.    :)

Keep up the good work!!

We all look forward to seeing more of your tests!

Best regards, Mike R.

Exactly!

---


Based on other claims, there is allways an explanation to why a motor doesn't work as desired. Many inventors tries to explain away the facts that prevents the motor to be a selfrunner. Adjustments are needed, wrong set of magnets, inproper ignition timing, lack of money (Please donate), etc. etc.

The same lesson every time a guy claims OU or something similar - with just a few minor adjustments. Then people are starting to ask questions. The inventor cannot reply, or provide bogus answers. Then the guy dissappear. Some inventors fools "stupid" investors, get ther money and disappear - or get cought by the police...

I'm just sceptic :)

Vidar

Exactly - but we can go a little further in our predictions...

---


Better yet, like I said, is to study the current efficiency and the caloric value of the evolved gases prior to using to run motors.


Yes, but I want proof not just numbers.

:S:MarkSCoffman
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: mscoffman on April 27, 2010, 10:59:10 PM
@All

Independent on what Anton does I have some proposals
For experiments based on what is being shown so that
next time we can have less loop instability problems and
maybe hit a little closer.


Experimental Question #1;

In a rank of one-to-ten; “How competent is the fuel system
of a propane fueled 4-cycle small ICE engine system capable
of running directly (one) on pure Hydrogen gas or (two) an
HHO gas feed? Hydrogen Gas Pressure: 5-7PSI. HHO probably
a bit higher. => We need a throtlable engine.


Experimental Question #2:

When running an 4-cycle small ICE engine with a ignition system
powered based on an external DC supply. “How much power
(in volts and milliamperes) is available when an automobile ignition
coil is backward wired to the flywheel magneto in stepdown mode
and the low impedance winding runs to a bridge rectifier and when
loaded to ½ the open circuit voltage by a load resistor?” The concept
is to construct an electronic ignition with a hall effect trigger sensor
that can be interposed on any small engine that does not require
external power. The sensor can operate based either on gears or
a “window” to the engine's cam-shaft.


Experimental Question #3

Is there a propane operated 4-cycle digital inverter generator at ~1KW?


Experimental Question #4

Accumulators slow down the loop response frequency required
to control a feedback loop. “Can additional electronic accumulation
be used to offset hydrogen accumulators -> Come up with a bulk
DC supply with 100Hz AC injection that is externally controllable.
How fast is electrolzer system response? We want to minimize
stored Hydrogen and also use HHO gas.


Experimental Question #5

Can Anton electrolyser be operated at 5PSI while retaining any
reputed overunity characteristics? Normal electrolysers like
higher pressure operation.


:S:MarkSCoffman
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on April 27, 2010, 11:10:40 PM
@mscoffman,

Quote
    Better yet, like I said, is to study the current efficiency and the caloric value of the evolved gases prior to using to run motors.


Yes, but I want proof not just numbers.

I know you want the overunity machine itself but it costs money to build it. By studying the gases which is straightforward and  inexpensive you may judge well as to whether or not there will be an OU machine. Why spend tons of money and waste months and years on building a machine which ultimately will prove underunity? This you can see in a matter of hours by studying the gases. Conversely, you can tell within ours if there's promise for OU without excuses for lack of funding or the instability of this or that.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: vrand on April 28, 2010, 12:39:05 AM
@mscoffman,

I know you want the overunity machine itself but it costs money to build it. By studying the gases which is straightforward and  inexpensive you may judge well as to whether or not there will be an OU machine. Why spend tons of money and waste months and years on building a machine which ultimately will prove underunity? This you can see in a matter of hours by studying the gases. Conversely, you can tell within ours if there's promise for OU without excuses for lack of funding or the instability of this or that.

Some have speculated that its the Gas Mixture of HHO + N2 +O2 + Combustion = Running engine

And that analyzing just the HHO to see OU would Not be the same.

Inside the combustion chamber there are all kinds of reactions happening. The smell of Ammonia says that the engine was creating NH3.  N3O is possible and that is used in race cars  ;)

Its the mixing of the gases that could create more than the individual gases alone!

As the saying goes "the whole is greater than the pieces"   :)

Best regards, Mike R.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: lltfdaniel1 on April 28, 2010, 12:39:34 AM
The entire secret of the universe and nature is that it generates it's self, behind time everything in precreation is those unbalanced spins.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on April 28, 2010, 12:42:44 AM
Some have speculated that its the Gas Mixture of HHO + N2 +O2 + Combustion = Running engine

And that analyzing just the HHO to see OU would Not be the same.

Inside the combustion chamber there are all kinds of reactions happening. The smell of Ammonia says that the engine was creating NH3.  N3O is possible and that is used in race cars  ;)

Its the mixing of the gases that could create more than the individual gases alone!

As the saying goes "the whole is greater than the pieces"   :)

Best regards, Mike R.

No problem to study that mixture calorimetrically. Burn it inside a calorimeter rather than inseide expensive motors and what not. It will not only be cheaper but will also be more accurate -- efficiency of the motor won't interfere.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: vrand on April 28, 2010, 01:31:09 AM
No problem to study that mixture calorimetrically. Burn it inside a calorimeter rather than inseide expensive motors and what not. It will not only be cheaper but will also be more accurate -- efficiency of the motor won't interfere.

The conditions inside an engine is difficult to recreate outside.  You have high compression and a high voltage arc/spark. 

The guys doing the experiment already say its a "cheap china" engine so really not a problem for them to continue to use that engine.   :)

Engines are cheap so might as well use them  ;)

Regards, Mike R.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on April 28, 2010, 01:41:19 AM
The conditions inside an engine is difficult to recreate outside.  You have high compression and a high voltage arc/spark. 

The guys doing the experiment already say its a "cheap china" engine so really not a problem for them to continue to use that engine.   :)

Engines are cheap so might as well use them  ;)

Regards, Mike R.

They said "cheap China engine" as a detriment. Aside from that, think about the energy balance. Compression has to come at a cost. If it's to be a self-sustaining device the only source will be that gas mixture coming from the electrolysis. Nothing else. If the mixture, including all that proportion coming from air isn't thermally efficient enough, that is, more than what it's known to be, all that talk of OU is just a pipe dream. And here's where the study of the thermal efficiency of the gas kicks in, prior to using it further in engines and such. That step is unavoidable, especially given the overall low efficiency of motors (motor, then generator, then electrolysis, forget it).
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: h2ocommuter on April 28, 2010, 01:43:34 AM
This is outstanding work, Very compotent engeeniiring and thoughfullness in conception and aproach.
As stated before, controling the gas is of primary importance.
Noted, Roy M, Bob B, Stanley M. all were able to achieve this same goal through modulation of the rate gas is produced and utilized. therein.  Great work!

I hope this can shed some light on the efficiency of these Anton cells. I have built many different kinds of cells.

When testing each cell I allways run the calculations through these spreadsheet to see how the cell stacks up to the maximum Faraday.

Any cell that approaches 100% is outstanding. Any cell structure that overcomes Maximum Faraday is Better than 99.99% of all cells ever built.

Please save a copy for your testings.

I did not build either of these calculators I only applied them in my own fancyfull arrangement.

h2ocommuter
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: vrand on April 28, 2010, 02:58:18 AM
They said "cheap China engine" as a detriment. Aside from that, think about the energy balance. Compression has to come at a cost. If it's to be a self-sustaining device the only source will be that gas mixture coming from the electrolysis. Nothing else. If the mixture, including all that proportion coming from air isn't thermally efficient enough, that is, more than what it's known to be, all that talk of OU is just a pipe dream. And here's where the study of the thermal efficiency of the gas kicks in, prior to using it further in engines and such. That step is unavoidable, especially given the overall low efficiency of motors (motor, then generator, then electrolysis, forget it).

Here is the genset they used. At $140 euro its inexpensive, compared to spending the time & money having to build a new separate test rig to test high voltage and high pressure of the HHO gas and air mix.

This is also an OHV engine which is more efficient than a typical B&S push rod engine  ;)

Syncron generator 230V
with Automatic Voltregulierung (AVR)


small and light, for lighting and other applications

Power Output:
Peak power: 1200w (1.2 KVA)
Rated power: 1000w (1.0 KVA)
Unions: 230V/50Hz and 1x 12V DC
with Voltmeteranzeige
Protection class: IP23

Engine:
Maximum power 2.8 hp
Capacity 84cm ³
Cooling air cooling
Engine type 4 stroke, OHV
Tank capacity 5.5 liters
Oil volume 0.4 liters
Oil level warning yes
65db volume in 7 meters distance


Pull start Yes
Last about 10 hours on one tank

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=de&tl=en&u=http://www.holzer-spalter.de/wbc.php%3Fsid%3D705684a69b4%26tpl%3Dproduktdetail.html%26pid%3D46%26rid%3D11%26recno%3D5&rurl=translate.google.com&usg=ALkJrhifVp5q0oIgxjT9UiyWTWLyiTj02w (http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=de&tl=en&u=http://www.holzer-spalter.de/wbc.php%3Fsid%3D705684a69b4%26tpl%3Dproduktdetail.html%26pid%3D46%26rid%3D11%26recno%3D5&rurl=translate.google.com&usg=ALkJrhifVp5q0oIgxjT9UiyWTWLyiTj02w)

Regards, Mike R.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on April 28, 2010, 04:27:25 AM
Here is the genset they used. At $140 euro its inexpensive, compared to spending the time & money having to build a new separate test rig to test high voltage and high pressure of the HHO gas and air mix.

This is also an OHV engine which is more efficient than a typical B&S push rod engine  ;)

Syncron generator 230V
with Automatic Voltregulierung (AVR)


small and light, for lighting and other applications

Power Output:
Peak power: 1200w (1.2 KVA)
Rated power: 1000w (1.0 KVA)
Unions: 230V/50Hz and 1x 12V DC
with Voltmeteranzeige
Protection class: IP23

Engine:
Maximum power 2.8 hp
Capacity 84cm ³
Cooling air cooling
Engine type 4 stroke, OHV
Tank capacity 5.5 liters
Oil volume 0.4 liters
Oil level warning yes
65db volume in 7 meters distance


Pull start Yes
Last about 10 hours on one tank

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=de&tl=en&u=http://www.holzer-spalter.de/wbc.php%3Fsid%3D705684a69b4%26tpl%3Dproduktdetail.html%26pid%3D46%26rid%3D11%26recno%3D5&rurl=translate.google.com&usg=ALkJrhifVp5q0oIgxjT9UiyWTWLyiTj02w (http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=de&tl=en&u=http://www.holzer-spalter.de/wbc.php%3Fsid%3D705684a69b4%26tpl%3Dproduktdetail.html%26pid%3D46%26rid%3D11%26recno%3D5&rurl=translate.google.com&usg=ALkJrhifVp5q0oIgxjT9UiyWTWLyiTj02w)

Regards, Mike R.

I understand what you're saying but, as you can see, they cannot run it for a longer period and they blame it on the cheap junk they're using. Of course, nothing beats a self-sustaining demo, if it's correctly done. On the other hand, rigorous scientific study of the evolved gases is something unquestionable, it does not depend on the efficiencies of the motors, no matter how perfect they are, it doesn't depend on other technicalities used as excuse. It is straightforward and no wonder people go along that route rather than jump into the unstudied territories of trying to build devices based on faith. Rigorous calorimetric studies will resolve promptly and conclusively any doubt one way or the other. That's the scientific approach, building motors based on faith is the garage-genius approach which may or most likely may not work but maybe it's fun to tinker. All power to them if they enjoy it and especially if it happens to bring results. It's methodogically flawed but, hey, if they really demonstrate a self-sustaining device who cares.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: vrand on April 28, 2010, 06:37:48 AM
I understand what you're saying but, as you can see, they cannot run it for a longer period and they blame it on the cheap junk they're using. Of course, nothing beats a self-sustaining demo, if it's correctly done. On the other hand, rigorous scientific study of the evolved gases is something unquestionable, it does not depend on the efficiencies of the motors, no matter how perfect they are, it doesn't depend on other technicalities used as excuse. It is straightforward and no wonder people go along that route rather than jump into the unstudied territories of trying to build devices based on faith. Rigorous calorimetric studies will resolve promptly and conclusively any doubt one way or the other. That's the scientific approach, building motors based on faith is the garage-genius approach which may or most likely may not work but maybe it's fun to tinker. All power to them if they enjoy it and especially if it happens to bring results. It's methodogically flawed but, hey, if they really demonstrate a self-sustaining device who cares.

Yea, they took off the throttle valve and carburetor body, just like Roy McAlister recommended in his videos, but now only need to control the HHO gas input somehow. Roy used a tank of H2 and fed the engine on 5 psi of H2.  Feeding HHO from their cells can fluctuate the HHO output gas (adding more or less amps) as well as the engine fluctuating when going from Idle to Full load.

They said that they ran the engine on Idle for hours to heat their office from the exhaust heat!   That makes sense, when there is no adding or subtracting loads to fluctuate the engine RPM, and when they created a steady state production of HHO from their cells (as Roy M. recommends).

They got VERY lucky hitting the right cell/gas/air/engine combination setup to get the engine to Idle for hours and also powering a load for 40 seconds.  Now its just a simple matter of valving the gas to meet the loads added to the engine.

They are 95% to 99% there.  

To start over and build a calorimetric setup could set them back months and lots of time and money. Or to design a new engine, or wait for someone to build a perfect engine could also take months to years.

They hit the jackpot and I say keep on going with what you got  :)

Best regards, Mike R. 
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on April 28, 2010, 07:11:16 AM
No, you try to make it appear it will take them months to do the obvious. On the contrary, they can assess the current efficiency right away. They even showed a video to that effect but it wasn't clear what exactly they got there. If the current efficiency, prior to making the gas-air mixture is as expected then the only possibility for anything unusual (OU) is the thermal efficiency of the mixture to be greater than expected and that can also be measured right away. If that's also as expected then, forget it, there's nothing to it and what we're seeing is due to trivial  causes. I'm not saying to abandon what they have but it isn't conclusive. Obviously, they'll continue excusing themselves for that inconclusiveness with the cheap Chinese motor, lack of funds and what not while they can take the bull by the horns and promptly demonstrate unusual current efficiencies and/or caloric values of the fuel. Everything else is beating around the bush and prolonging a potential agony. Other areas of OU research are showing similar signs due to various reasons.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on April 28, 2010, 07:22:45 AM
Mind you this, even in the unlikely possibility that the nitrogen or some other component of the air has something to do with the useful burning (and that that hydrogen itself isn't the fuel, as the normal understanding of what goes on is), a proof that the current efficiency of electrolysis is as expected will make this project not more interesting as a concept that those clocks working for over a century without winding due to the daily temperature or pressure differences. That isn't OU and is of only limited practical interest, having nothing to do with the OU revolution many of us here are considering. Same applies to the thermal efficiency of the mixture. Thus, if the significance of this project is to be assessed scientifically and not only in narrow utilitarian terms such studies are a must. Thus, if all is as expected during the electrolysis (never mind what happens later when the mixture is formed) that won't be a self-sustaining device in the sense of an OU effect even in the best outcome, even with load working for hours in a closed fashion.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: vrand on April 28, 2010, 08:26:05 AM
Mind you this, even in the unlikely possibility that the nitrogen or some other component of the air has something to do with the useful burning (and that that hydrogen itself isn't the fuel, as the normal understanding of what goes on is), a proof that the current efficiency of electrolysis is as expected will make this project not more interesting as a concept that those clocks working for over a century without winding due to the daily temperature or pressure differences. That isn't OU and is of only limited practical interest, having nothing to do with the OU revolution many of us here are considering. Same applies to the thermal efficiency of the mixture. Thus, if the significance of this project is to be assessed scientifically and not only in narrow utilitarian terms such studies are a must. Thus, if all is as expected during the electrolysis (never mind what happens later when the mixture is formed) that won't be a self-sustaining device in the sense of an OU effect even in the best outcome, even with load working for hours in a closed fashion.

It is not a simple process of determining Faraday efficiency of the Anton cell that would explain away that they can run the engine with a 1000 watt load and the cell only needs 800-900 watts to generate the HHO gas.  There is more happening inside the engine combustion chamber with HHO + N2 + O2 that we do not know yet.  An exhaust gas analyzer would help  ;)

By all means let them calculate what is the Faraday efficiency of the Anton cell output to input, that should be easy.

My concern was that they go off and redesign an internal combustion engine, as that can take months to do.

Regards, Mike R.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: sushimoto on April 28, 2010, 11:59:24 AM
Hi,

please keep in mind, that we are NOT talking about "Overunity" but Efficency instead.
What has been archived ist not an quantitative "breakthrough" in Terms of simple LPM
or calorimetric value, but a qualitative one. Its easy to burn the gas and "measure" ist calorimetric energy, but what we need is some gas chromatography in order to
find out the "mixture by accident".

Maybe it not a good idea to make another video of 30 minutes,
because nobody can be sure to find the right mixture of Urea, Air, Acetone, citric acid,
acetic acid and everything else that was testet and pbly. remained in the cells.

The setup should maybe not be sacrefied just to make another fancy youtube?

best regards,
Oliver
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Rapadura on April 28, 2010, 01:39:49 PM
If you are using electricity to make electrolisys, and using the product of the electrolisys to generate electricity, then the only "Efficency" that matters is Overunity.

If you spend more electricity to make electrolisys than the electricity you can generate with the product of that electrolisys, than it has nothing special. You will only be spending electricity from the grid, electricity that was generated by coal power plants.

But the self-run of the system during that 40 seconds is an indication of possible overunity. A longer run can prove that. But, if you are not interested in that, OK. It's your device. You do what you want with it.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: helmut on April 28, 2010, 02:50:24 PM
If i read all the coments and think it over. I just scatch my head
and ask myselve,   what is going on in this community.

There is a presentation.
No connection to any grid.
The generator feeds the transformer.
The Transformer feeds the Anton and the Anton feeds the Generator
and so on.  Thats the proof!
Switch of the transformer, cause the Engine after 4-5 Seconds to die.
So at least 35 seconds water only, was the fuel.
 The next step will be to build a exhaust to minimise the sound level.
And find a efficient way to control the Sparc timing and the air mixture.
The loop wil be closed . When the Exhaust guides the Water and air
direct into the Anton.

helmut
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on April 28, 2010, 02:50:37 PM
Again, it should be clear that a convincing demonstration of a self-sustaining system would overshadow everything else and would dwarf any of the concerns expressed in this discussion.

The problem is it hasn't been demonstrated convincingly yet and the discussion is about how to approach the further studies. One suggestion is to carry on with the blind trial and error approach expecting to hit the lottery again because the gut feeling is that that has already happened from the telltale signs demonstrated in the video.

On the other hand, rationally, the scientific approach still doesn't detect reasons to expect unusual behavior. Electrochemical cells of this type are something trivial and no unusual behavior has been found in them. If Anton cell behaves differently it has to be demonstrated by appropriate experiments. The most one can expect, if there are no unusual phenomena occurring, is this cell to allow a very nearly reversible electrolysis so the energy spent would be approximately equal to the Gibbs free energy of the reaction (not to be confused with the free energy used as a term in forums such as this) which, of course, is lower than the enthalpy of the burning of hydrogen. That would be interesting, it follows from the standard thermodynamics and in some sense can count as overunity. However, given the great inefficiency of the motors, especially of that cheap Chinese motor, it cannot account for the self-sustaining run of the system. Of course, if the evolution of the gases proceeds as known, the mixture is stoichiometric and the enthalpy is the known enthalpy from the Handbooks of Chemistry and Physics.

It was suggested that prior experiments have left traces of chemicals and that may be the source of the additional energy, not provided by the current source. That's unlikely. Another suggestion is that components of the air such as the nitrogen might contribute to the ostensible excess energy by somehow having the purported HHO catalyze its oxidation at high pressures. A claim that somehow a given proportion of nitrogen in that mixture suddenly changes that enthalpy to incredible values also has to be proved experimentally. As a detail, it would not be gas chromatography that would be suitable to study what that critical mixture is because we are not interested in the retention times of the various components of that gas mixture. Rather we want to know what these species exactly are and what their proportion in the mixture is. That can be provided by mass spectrometry.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: felix.lamet on April 28, 2010, 05:22:08 PM
Can someone proof this with a schematic or a guide?
greetings
Title: Happy Birthday to Moray
Post by: sterlinga on April 29, 2010, 05:35:07 AM
On April 28, 2010, Directory:Moray King (http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Moray_B_King) wrote:

Sterling,

Thanks so much! They posted their announcement on my birthday; what a wonderful gift!

Let's make sure they get my 2009 slide show from your site, "Water Fuel via ZPE"

Thanks again, you made my day!

-Moray
============
See
http://freeenergynews.com/Directory/Electrolysis/Moray_King/WaterFuelZPE2009.ppt
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Water_Dissociation_Using_Zero_Point_Energy
http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:Moray_King:Closed-Loop_Water_Fuel_Cell
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on April 29, 2010, 06:56:52 AM
Zero point energy is a problem in quantum mechanics which has to be dealt with in order to improve quantum mechanics, rather than use it as a candidate explanation of a phenomenon whose own reality is questionable.The presentation summarizes results of enthusiasts while the mentioned academics cause one to be even less enthusiastic in considering this as a legitimate area of research. Therefore, as it was made clear and I can't agree more, nothing short of a self-sustaining system can legitimize the claims by the few enthusiasts that there's something to it as a new energy phenomenon worthy of study. In this respect the effort of the German group we're discussing is a step in the right direction.

Now I realize it isn't the first time I'm hearing about this gas. Several years ago I met someone who had been a personal friend of the Bulgarian inventor Yul Brown credited with what is claimed to be a discovery, discussed here. The lack of hard data of the energy balances and the heavy reliance on telltale signs made me reluctant to consider it further. The same would have applied today had it not been for the announcement of our German colleagues that they have achieved self-sustaining state of their machine. I hope they can make it easily reproducible and determine the exact conditions for achieving that state so that independent parties can reproduce their result.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: briansahern on April 29, 2010, 07:43:25 PM
I am new to the Anton topic. How do I post a comment?  I have a great deal of experience with this topic.

Brians
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: briansahern on April 29, 2010, 07:46:07 PM
I will use quick reply formatting. I believe the Anton advantage comes from high voltage pulsing. Stanley Meyer used higher and higher voltage pulses to get over-unity production of gas.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: mscoffman on April 29, 2010, 08:58:13 PM
I will use quick reply formatting. I believe the Anton advantage comes from high voltage pulsing. Stanley Meyer used higher and higher voltage pulses to get over-unity production of gas.

@Hello briansahern

User Paul-R posted this link in another thread here at overunity.com;

There is a lot about this in Patrick's chapter 10:
http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/Chapter10.pdf

There is a lot of information on Stanley Myers system in the above
chapter. They way he used the field-strength input port on the
automobile alternator, while it is not genius, is very clever. He uses
the alternator as a magnetic amplifier of sorts for modulating the high
frequency signal onto the electrolyser feed power and then he can
control the excitation voltage level by how fast the motor turns the
alternator. Each of the three phase alternator phases drive a separate
tube plate in the electrolyser.

How much of this is necessary for overunity, I don't know. But many
overunity schemes seem to use tube plates rather flat plates. He also
may have had a human operator adjusting the output of the cell to
maximize it...Of course a computer can learn to do whatever a human
can in terms of operating adjustments giving the correct programming
and the correct sensors.

Anton if they don't have it already, is close. The problem is to stop them
from moving it into a, very expensive, very unreliable, very undesirable
ICE engine... We need to wait around for someone to demonstate it
by taking away the incompleteness surrounding Anton's demonstration,
and maybe Anton or someone else will demonstrate overunity gain in
the electrolyser.

Doing plasma in the engine is technically a challenge, it's just not worth
all that much in my opinion, without doing a whole development cycle
on the engine.

:S:MarkSCoffman
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: vrand on April 29, 2010, 10:51:23 PM
Quote from: helmut link=topic=9099.msg239466#msg239466 A=1272459024
If i read all the coments and think it over. I just scatch my head
and ask myselve,   what is going on in this community.

There is a presentation.
No connection to any grid.
The generator feeds the transformer.
The Transformer feeds the Anton and the Anton feeds the Generator
and so on.  Thats the proof!
Switch of the transformer, cause the Engine after 4-5 Seconds to die.
So at least 35 seconds water only, was the fuel.
 The next step will be to build a exhaust to minimise the sound level.
And find a efficient way to control the Sparc timing and the air mixture.
The loop wil be closed . When the Exhaust guides the Water and air
direct into the Anton.

helmut

Hi Helmut,

I did not know that the generator was powering the Anton Cells, while idling for hours and that load test?!?!?

If that is true then Oliver & Valentin hit the jackpot  ;D

Now its just a matter of doing a longer engine load run, say 5 mins., at say 500 watts load.  And LOTS of people will be wanting them to build a unit for sale, or donating money for them to build more and larger units!

I thought the power to power the cells was coming from the wall plug, and they did a simple calculation to so power out > power in?

Best regards, Mike R.

Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Mark69 on April 29, 2010, 11:49:59 PM
Keep up the good work!

a simple way to improve efficiency of the generator would to be to increase its compression ratio.  This could be done in several ways.  Mill the head down slightly, make a new head gasket that is thinner then the old one, or even make a system that will introduce a water mist into the intake (since water in liquid form will not compress, it will cause the CR to increase).  I am not sure what CR is max for hydrogen, but I am sure this chinese gen is probably no more then 8 to 1 or so.  Mill the head might be the best to maintain integrity for calculations later on. 

Mark
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: briansahern on April 30, 2010, 02:15:51 AM
In 1994 I was given $100,000 to replicate Stanley Meyer's work. I paid Eugene Mallove and Jeff Driscoll to visit with him and bring back one piece of information:  Does the water discolor during operation?

They believed that it did and we set out to build his power supply. That effort turned out to be too difficult and I surreneder in 1995 and gave back $26,000 to the benfactor in defeat.

Since that time I have learned that the power supply is of secondary consdieration and a modestly high voltage pulsed supply ( alluded to by Anton) will suffice.

Another group in Bologna is doing something similar. Search on Focardi and Rossi. They do not detail their power input other than to say it is 15 watts of electrical energy. I believe it is a pulsed power supply. My supply puts out 30,000 volt pulses at 13 watts.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on April 30, 2010, 03:22:18 AM
In 1994 I was given $100,000 to replicate Stanley Meyer's work. I paid Eugene Mallove and Jeff Driscoll to visit with him and bring back one piece of information:  Does the water discolor during operation?

They believed that it did and we set out to build his A. That effort turned out to be too difficult and I surreneder in 1995 and gave back $26,000 to the benfactor in defeat.

Since that time I have learned that the A is of secondary consdieration and a modestly high voltage pulsed supply ( alluded to by Anton) will suffice.

Another group in Bologna is doing something similar. Search on Focardi and Rossi. They do not detail their power input other than to say it is 15 watts of electrical energy. I believe it is a pulsed A. My supply puts out 30,000 volt pulses at 13 watts.

My dear friend Gene was really devoted to this area of research (cold fusion, that is) but electrochemistry wasn't his forte, unfortunately. More versed in that area of what some consider fringe science is Randy Mills (Bill in Randy's case is as devoted an assistant as Jeff) but, sadly, he's too stuck with what he considers a theory, involving hydrino. Why should one blame them, though, since even critics such as J.M Calo from Brown University can be observed to make elementary mistakes in their criticism, as seen in Int.J.Hydrogen Energy, 31, 113-1128 (2006), R.M.Santilli's questionable premises notwithstanding. As far as I can see, no one so far has carried out a serious scientific study of the purported HHO gas, let alone that certain aspects of the electrolysis of water itself, considered to be so well studied, are still not well understood.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: vrand on April 30, 2010, 05:46:12 AM
Again, it should be clear that a convincing demonstration of a self-sustaining system would overshadow everything else and would dwarf any of the concerns expressed in this discussion.

The problem is it hasn't been demonstrated convincingly yet and the discussion is about how to approach the further studies. One suggestion is to carry on with the blind trial and error approach expecting to hit the lottery again because the gut feeling is that that has already happened from the telltale signs demonstrated in the video.

On the other hand, rationally, the scientific approach still doesn't detect reasons to expect unusual behavior. Electrochemical cells of this type are something trivial and no unusual behavior has been found in them. If Anton cell behaves differently it has to be demonstrated by appropriate experiments. The most one can expect, if there are no unusual phenomena occurring, is this cell to allow a very nearly reversible electrolysis so the energy spent would be approximately equal to the Gibbs free energy of the reaction (not to be confused with the free energy used as a term in forums such as this) which, of course, is lower than the enthalpy of the burning of hydrogen. That would be interesting, it follows from the standard thermodynamics and in some sense can count as overunity. However, given the great inefficiency of the motors, especially of that cheap Chinese motor, it cannot account for the self-sustaining run of the system. Of course, if the evolution of the gases proceeds as known, the mixture is stoichiometric and the enthalpy is the known enthalpy from the Handbooks of Chemistry and Physics.

It was suggested that prior experiments have left traces of chemicals and that may be the source of the additional energy, not provided by the current source. That's unlikely. Another suggestion is that components of the air such as the nitrogen might contribute to the ostensible excess energy by somehow having the purported HHO catalyze its oxidation at high pressures. A claim that somehow a given proportion of nitrogen in that mixture suddenly changes that enthalpy to incredible values also has to be proved experimentally. As a detail, it would not be gas chromatography that would be suitable to study what that critical mixture is because we are not interested in the retention times of the various components of that gas mixture. Rather we want to know what these species exactly are and what their proportion in the mixture is. That can be provided by mass spectrometry.

A mass spectrometer would be perfect for analyzing both the Anton cell output gases and the exhaust gases from the engine. Maybe there is a local university that has one and that an interested researcher could do some tests  ;)

Some typical things to look for:
- The percentage of the Anton cell HHO of Orthohydrogen vs Parahydrogen?  Orthohydrogen has a higher energy content.
- Any ionized gases from the cell or exhaust?
- The amount of water vapor mixed with the HHO from the cell?
- The amount of NOx, water vapor and NH3 and other gases from the exhaust output?
- Would there be more NH3 and less NOx, if there is more HHO input? Or even H2 at output?

High H2 exhaust emissions 
http://www.waterfuelforall.com/forum/index.php?topic=657.0 (http://www.waterfuelforall.com/forum/index.php?topic=657.0)

...When we supplied gas to the engine at about 35A @27V gasproduction was a between 5-6LPM. Watertemp was around 35c. However what was very noticable was that when the system was activated and gas supplied to the engine, the amount of H2 measured in the exhaust was increased 10 times. So where we would have a round 30-60PPM H2 with the system off, H2 went up towards 600 and over at times.

The smell of ammonia NH3 in the exhaust? Stan Meyer used the Nitrogen in the air along with his HHO to run his Dune Buggy.

From Meyer technical brief page 37:
Quote:
Gas Grid System
Ambient Air is the prime source of Non-Combustible Gases (Nitrogen) when the Air-Gases are exposed to and passes through an Open-Air Flame, as illustrated in Figure (2-10). The Gas Combustion Process of the Gas-Flame eliminates oxygen and burnable gas atoms from the expelling gases ... producing an endless supply of non-combustible gases.
Mixing the "processed" Air-Gases (Nitrogen) with an Hydrogen Supply Source sets up The Gas Retarding Process ... allowing the Hydrogen Gas-Mixture to be transported safely through existing Gas-Grid System.

Operational Parameters
The utilization and recycling of non-combustible gases, now, renders hydrogen gas as safe as Natural Gas or any other Fuel-Gas ... allowing the Water Fuel Cell to become a Retrofit Energy System.
http://img222.imageshack.us/i/slowburning.png/ (http://img222.imageshack.us/i/slowburning.png/)

There are a slew of tests that can be done, now that they can run an engine on an Anton cell.  Just take the whole unit to the university lab and do the tests. It should not take that long to do the tests and then hopefully everyone will know what is happening and why.

Regards, Mike R.


 
-
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on April 30, 2010, 06:02:53 AM
@vrand,

That'll be great if they can convince a university to do the tests but that (the convincing) isn't at all easy to accomplish in practice. These tests require expensive specialized equipment which almost always is tied up with the ongoing research at the department. Besides, it's not just taking the sample and doing the test. Calibrations, are to be done, failures which always accompany tests have to be faced, reproducibility is to be achieved and so on and so forth. It's research and it cannot be done on a fly by night basis. As far as I understand even the likes of Santilly have resorted to paying companies to do the GCMS etc. and that has caused a lot of confusion, as is seen in Calo's paper which I cited above. What is needed are systematic studies and such studies can only be done by qualified personnel equipped with appropriate instruments allocated for that particular purpose. Usually people write grant proposals to, say, NSF for this kind of research but don't hold your breath, NSF and similar organization will never fund such type of studies. One has to be either independently wealthy to fund his own research or has to have the ability to convince investors that sometime in the future there will be a return on their investment. There are signature instances of people that have done that. I haven't heard so far of private individuals funding a project idealistically just for the purposes of establishing the scientific truth. Idealistic funding is only done by organizations such as NSF but, as I said, because of all kind of circumstances, especially political, such research will never be funded by public organizations with public money despite the fact that it is the public who stands to benefit the most from them.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: vrand on April 30, 2010, 06:20:28 AM
My dear friend Gene was really devoted to this area of research (cold fusion, that is) but electrochemistry wasn't his forte, unfortunately. More versed in that area of what some consider fringe science is Randy Mills (Bill in Randy's case is as devoted an assistant as Jeff) but, sadly, he's too stuck with what he considers a theory, involving hydrino. Why should one blame them, though, since even critics such as J.M Calo from Brown University can be observed to make elementary mistakes in their criticism, as seen in Int.J.Hydrogen Energy, 31, 113-1128 (2006), R.M.Santilli's questionable premises notwithstanding. As far as I can see, no one so far has carried out a serious scientific study of the purported HHO gas, let alone that certain aspects of the electrolysis of water itself, considered to be so well studied, are still not well understood.

Yeah, Gene (we miss you) was into over-unity and free energy devises and was well respected in the energy field.

Yull Brown of "Browns Gas" fame did some testing of his HHO gas such as, fueling engines, cutting steel, welding dissimilar materials and gas implosion tests. I found his experiments in radiation remediation very interesting, as a way to clean up the growing piles of nuclear waste from our nuclear power plants.

Advanced transmutation processes and their application for the decontamination of radioactive nuclear wastes
A. Michrowski
President, Planetary Association for Clean Energy, Inc   
http://pacenet.homestead.com/Transmutation.html (http://pacenet.homestead.com/Transmutation.html)

On August 6, 1992, almost a year after the Chinese nuclear report, Prof. Yull Brown made a special demonstration to a team of 5 San Francisco field office observers from the United States Department of Energy, at the request of the Hon. Berkeley Bedell.  Cobalt 60 was treated and resulted in a drop of Geiger readings from 1,000 counts to 40 -- resulting in radioactive waste residue of about 0.04 of the original level.  Apprehensive that somehow the radioactivity might have been dispersed into the ambient environment, the official requested the California Department of Health Services to inspect the premises. The health services crew found no radioactivity in the air resulting from this demonstration nor from another repeat demonstration held for their benefit. [11]

It looked like Politics got in the way of solving one of man's most harmful waste products from being solved with the simple application of "Browns Gas."

Best Regards, Mike R.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on April 30, 2010, 06:29:32 AM
Yeah, Gene (we miss you) was into over-unity and free energy devises and was well respected in the energy field.

Yull Brown of "Browns Gas" fame did some testing of his HHO gas such as, fueling engines, cutting steel, welding dissimilar materials and gas implosion tests. I found his experiments in radiation remediation very interesting, as a way to clean up the growing piles of nuclear waste from our nuclear power plants.

Advanced transmutation processes and their application for the decontamination of radioactive nuclear wastes
A. Michrowski
President, Planetary Association for Clean Energy, Inc   
http://pacenet.homestead.com/Transmutation.html (http://pacenet.homestead.com/Transmutation.html)

On August 6, 1992, almost a year after the Chinese nuclear report, Prof. Yull Brown made a special demonstration to a team of 5 San Francisco field office observers from the United States Department of Energy, at the request of the Hon. Berkeley Bedell.  Cobalt 60 was treated and resulted in a drop of Geiger readings from 1,000 counts to 40 -- resulting in radioactive waste residue of about 0.04 of the original level.  Apprehensive that somehow the radioactivity might have been dispersed into the ambient environment, the official requested the California Department of Health Services to inspect the premises. The health services crew found no radioactivity in the air resulting from this demonstration nor from another repeat demonstration held for their benefit. [11]

It looked like Politics got in the way of solving one of man's most harmful waste products from being solved with the simple application of "Browns Gas."

Best Regards, Mike R.

That's really hard to believe. Sounds like those fellows from the Kabala center here in New York City claiming that they can clean the Chernobil nuclear waste in Ukraine with their special Kabala water but I never saw it demonstrated. I hear there are commercial Brown gas installations produced in South Korea and elsewhere, so this can be verified. If you have access to funding why not try it?
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: vrand on April 30, 2010, 06:34:42 AM
@vrand,

That'll be great if they can convince a university to do the tests but that (the convincing) isn't at all easy to accomplish in practice. These tests require expensive specialized equipment which almost always is tied up with the ongoing research at the department. Besides, it's not just taking the sample and doing the test. Calibrations, are to be done, failures which always accompany tests have to be faced, reproducibility is to be achieved and so on and so forth. It's research and it cannot be done on a fly by night basis. As far as I understand even the likes of Santilly have resorted to paying companies to do the GCMS etc. and that has caused a lot of confusion, as is seen in Calo's paper which I cited above. What is needed are systematic studies and such studies can only be done by qualified personnel equipped with appropriate instruments allocated for that particular purpose. Usually people write grant proposals to, say, NSF for this kind of research but don't hold your breath, NSF and similar organization will never fund such type of studies. One has to be either independently wealthy to fund his own research or has to have the ability to convince investors that sometime in the future there will be a return on their investment. There are signature instances of people that have done that. I haven't heard so far of private individuals funding a project idealistically just for the purposes of establishing the scientific truth. Idealistic funding is only done by organizations such as NSF but, as I said, because of all kind of circumstances, especially political, such research will never be funded by public organizations with public money despite the fact that it is the public who stands to benefit the most from them.

I agree Omnibus. Browns Gas is "fringe science" and almost taboo in the university setting, especially after word got out that his gas can remediate  nuclear radioactivity.  That slammed the door on further experiments as current cherish science truths would have to change.

“A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it”

Max Planck

Regards, Mike R.

ps the only way I see this HHO science taking off is when the common man can make or buy a unit to power his house or fuel his car.  After its in wide use, then science will take a look at it.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on April 30, 2010, 06:35:22 AM
Way back when I carried out studies on Monti's chemical transmutation. It started promising but later the more in-depth studies revealed that what appeared to be peaks of newly appearing elements in the gamma and beta spectra are simply artefacts which have trivial explanation.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: vrand on April 30, 2010, 06:40:25 AM
That's really hard to believe. Sounds like those fellows from the Kabala center here in New York City claiming that they can clean the Chernobil nuclear waste in Ukraine with their special Kabala water but I never saw it demonstrated. I hear there are commercial Brown gas installations produced in South Korea and elsewhere, so this can be verified. If you have access to funding why not try it?

Yeah if I did have access to funding I would try it out. Yull even made a video of that radiation remediation experiment. Maybe its online somewhere. It was pretty neat  ;)

 
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on April 30, 2010, 06:42:05 AM
I agree Omnibus. Browns Gas is "fringe science" and almost taboo in the university setting, especially after word got out that his gas can remediate  nuclear radioactivity.  That slammed the door on further experiments as current cherish science truths would have to change.

“A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it”

Max Planck

Regards, Mike R.

ps the only way I see this HHO science taking off is when the common man can make or buy a unit to power his house or fuel his car.  After its in wide use, then science will take a look at it.

This is what Gene Mallove believed in and he took me once, some 20 years ago, to a relative of his, a lawyer, to help us set up a company together. I refused because utilitarianism comes after establishing the scientific fact. Life is cruel. Science even more. If you don't have money to do the research properly too bad. No mercy. No way around it through making it appear the dream, the promise will somehow turn into a cash cow. We have a lot of examples of that, going nowhere. Even in the mainstream science.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on April 30, 2010, 06:46:44 AM
Yeah if I did have access to funding I would try it out. Yull even made a video of that radiation remediation experiment. Maybe its online somewhere. It was pretty neat  ;)

See, we already know how much videos are worth when such claims are to be sustained. How much would it take to get a Brown gas generator and try this darn thing? 60Co is easy to find, these are the calibration tablets for the NaI and Ge detectors. One can use even a Geiger counter for this purpose.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: vrand on April 30, 2010, 07:34:05 AM
See, we already know how much videos are worth when such claims are to be sustained. How much would it take to get a Brown gas generator and try this darn thing? 60Co is easy to find, these are the calibration tablets for the NaI and Ge detectors. One can use even a Geiger counter for this purpose.

Yeah, there are several sellers of Browns Gas/HHO units.  When Yull Brown did his radiation remediation experiments back in 1980's he used his big 15-20 LPM machine.

Eagle Research makes a 1200 LPH, 20 LPM unit, at 3 Wh/L, for $3500 FOB.  Accessories (bubbler, hoses, torch tips, etc) available separately.
http://www.blazingwater.com/ (http://www.blazingwater.com/)

See the Presentation for the specs and costs:
http://www.waterwelder.com/ppt/er1200/index.htm (http://www.waterwelder.com/ppt/er1200/index.htm)

3 Wh/L is good. It would be great to compare the Wh/L and the gas output between the Anton unit and the Eagle Research unit to see who has the better Wh/L efficiency and orthohydrogen gas output.  ;)

The Anton unit is exciting as it is the first HHO unit to run an engine that is also powering the cell!  There is something special happening with that cell. Maybe its producing 100% orthohydrogen? If so, then getting several of them in series/parallel to output 20 LPM might be the way to go.  :)

There were claims back in the '70's down in Australia/New Zealand that Yull converted a car to run on his gas. Nothing came out of that though.

Unknown the efficiencies of the Korea or China brand units. Their prices are around $3-5k.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: vrand on April 30, 2010, 08:00:38 AM
Yeah, there are several sellers of Browns Gas/HHO units.  When Yull Brown did his radiation remediation experiments back in 1980's he used his big 15-20 LPM machine.

Eagle Research makes a 1200 LPH, 20 LPM unit, at 3 Wh/L, for $3500 FOB.  Accessories (bubbler, hoses, torch tips, etc) available separately.
http://www.blazingwater.com/ (http://www.blazingwater.com/)

See the Presentation for the specs and costs:
http://www.waterwelder.com/ppt/er1200/index.htm (http://www.waterwelder.com/ppt/er1200/index.htm)

3 Wh/L is good. It would be great to compare the Wh/L and the gas output between the Anton unit and the Eagle Research unit to see who has the better Wh/L efficiency and orthohydrogen gas output.  ;)

The Anton unit is exciting as it is the first HHO unit to run an engine that is also powering the cell!  There is something special happening with that cell. Maybe its producing 100% orthohydrogen? If so, then getting several of them in series/parallel to output 20 LPM might be the way to go.  :)

There were claims back in the '70's down in Australia/New Zealand that Yull converted a car to run on his gas. Nothing came out of that though.

Unknown the efficiencies of the Korea or China brand units. Their prices are around $3-5k.

Bob Boyce designed a HHO 101 plate unit that got down to under 1 Wh/L but it is not in production, and you have to build it yourself. See the D9 PDF doc for the spec's.
http://waterpoweredcar.com/pdf.files/D9.pdf (http://waterpoweredcar.com/pdf.files/D9.pdf)

This whole HHO field has been going on since the '60's with Dr. Rhodes, the original inventor, that sold units to jewelers.  It never took off commercially as the markets were wide spread and already well established. 
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: vrand on April 30, 2010, 08:57:25 AM
This is what Gene Mallove believed in and he took me once, some 20 years ago, to a relative of his, a lawyer, to help us set up a company together. I refused because utilitarianism comes after establishing the scientific fact. Life is cruel. Science even more. If you don't have money to do the research properly too bad. No mercy. No way around it through making it appear the dream, the promise will somehow turn into a cash cow. We have a lot of examples of that, going nowhere. Even in the mainstream science.

“On the planet Earth, if you jump up, you will come down is a universal experience. Knowledge about the law of gravity is not. One does not have to understand the law of gravity in order to come down after jumping up."

"The builder of a chair does not have to understand the law of gravity in order to make a chair." 

"Build it and they will come." 


Most consumers have no idea how to build a car or TV or computer, but they use and buy them every day.

The "Free Energy & Over Unity" field is littered with failed experiments that did not work and $$ spent.  It is a rarity to read about a successful experiment that demonstrate an engineered end product that can be purchased by the consumer. 

This Anton genset experiment is one of those rarities  :)

Regards, Mike R.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: haithar on April 30, 2010, 12:23:48 PM
Bob Boyce designed a HHO 101 plate unit that got down to under 1 Wh/L but it is not in production, and you have to build it yourself. See the D9 PDF doc for the spec's.
http://waterpoweredcar.com/pdf.files/D9.pdf (http://waterpoweredcar.com/pdf.files/D9.pdf)
you forgot to add 'which does not work'. there's a video on YouTube where two builders have replicated it exactly, they show the correct waveforms, a large 101-plated cell and so on. But it does not work or at least no overunity.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on April 30, 2010, 02:10:21 PM
“On the planet Earth, if you jump up, you will come down is a universal experience. Knowledge about the law of gravity is not. One does not have to understand the law of gravity in order to come down after jumping up."

"The builder of a chair does not have to understand the law of gravity in order to make a chair." 

"Build it and they will come." 


Most consumers have no idea how to build a car or TV or computer, but they use and buy them every day.

The "Free Energy & Over Unity" field is littered with failed experiments that did not work and $$ spent.  It is a rarity to read about a successful experiment that demonstrate an engineered end product that can be purchased by the consumer. 

This Anton genset experiment is one of those rarities  :)

Regards, Mike R.

See, the sitting on the chair and seeing the car move are the conclusive experiment in your example. On the contrary, in our case here we're not sure if we're dealing with a real phenomenon at all. So, it's not about understanding how it works but whether or not it's just a trivial mistake due to errors in measurement. That's the problem. Proving that it's a real phenomenon in this case isn't as easy as sitting in a chair or turning the ignition key. It doesn't consist in just building those machines. To prove OU or radiation elimination is more involved and that cannot be accomplished by first manufacturing devices and selling them to customers, as in the case of making chairs. The powers that be will immediately use the disgruntled customers to shoot down the research (cf. Perendev). These powers aren't shooting down failed-to-deliver Tokamak or the failed-to-deliver five billion dollar laser fusion project but they will certainly shoot down promptly any OU project at the tiniest opportunity. Therefore there must be iron clad proof that the claimed OU machine is real before setting up a company to sell it to customers the way you have to have a car that moves when driven in order to offer it on the market. Like I said, that isn't easy and hasn't been done yet to satisfy the rigorous criteria of science. Most of what we're seeing are attempts in trying to woo investors with elaborate games based on questionable presentations. Genuine efforts to show quality research openly and competently are a rarity and have not amounted to much so far in convincing those in the know of the validity of the claims.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on April 30, 2010, 02:21:24 PM
you forgot to add 'which does not work'. there's a video on YouTube where two builders have replicated it exactly, they show the correct waveforms, a large 101-plated cell and so on. But it does not work or at least no overunity.

Can you please give a link to those YouTube vids?
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on April 30, 2010, 02:28:36 PM
Quote
This whole HHO field has been going on since the '60's with Dr. Rhodes, the original inventor, that sold units to jewelers.

I thought Yul Brown was the original inventor of that so-called HHO gas with the unusual properties we're discussing here. That a torch can be made from the evolved gasses due to electrolysis of water has been known since the days of Faraday, hasn't it?
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: briansahern on April 30, 2010, 03:12:13 PM
There has been a lot of confusion with regard to Brown's gas properties. I obtained a unit made in Outer Mongolia and thoroughly quantified its operation in 1995.
1. the efficiency of electrical energy to stored chemical energy in H2 + O2 gas was 87%. It had 60 parallel plates acting is series with 120volts each section acting as a 2volt cell. The system ran at 6 Amps
2. The gas evolved is stoichiometric (2H2 + 1O2)
3. The mixture is highly dangerous and prone to explosions when stored in vessels of large crossection.
4. Storing the gas in  small diameter tubing results in implosions and creation of a partial vacuum. This is because water will condense as a liquid on walls if they are close enough and the liquid occupies only 0.1% of the volume of the gases. In a large container too many reaction occur before condensation occurs.
5. Running an engine on Brown's gas is not routine. The dilution with air is necessary fro smooth operation.
6. All the mysterious properties attributed to Brown's gas, such as melting tungsten are simply combustion processes as tungstean wants to be W2O3
7. There is no magic to Brown's gas. Brown was a 'showman' and had to keep moving.
8. That does not mean that the high voltage electrolysis cannot support over-unity energy production.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: haithar on April 30, 2010, 03:23:03 PM
Can you please give a link to those YouTube vids?
if i remember correct it was this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UF4zuqWEoI0

1. the efficiency of electrical energy to stored chemical energy in H2 + O2 gas was 87%. It had 60 parallel plates acting is series with 120volts each section acting as a 2volt cell. The system ran at 6 Amps
would be very good for using hydrogen as an energy carrier. wikipedia states that the current commercial electrolysers are in the 70% efficiency range.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on April 30, 2010, 03:40:04 PM
if i remember correct it was this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UF4zuqWEoI0
would be very good for using hydrogen as an energy carrier. wikipedia states that the current commercial electrolysers are in the 70% efficiency range.

Thanks for the link. Not very convincing. Electrochemical systems are complex and need much more involved studies than this. The colleagues with the Anton cell might be doing something worthwhile but the price to get a cell to study it is prohibitive, unfortunately.

Also, we must have something else going on in addition to producing hydrogen. If the goal is to produce hydrogen through electrolysis, that'll be a hopeless pursuit regarding OU. I see a clear tendency to sway the research towards hydrogen economy and that's a way to deliberately kill this field of research.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on April 30, 2010, 03:54:13 PM
There has been a lot of confusion with regard to Brown's gas properties. I obtained a unit made in Outer Mongolia and thoroughly quantified its operation in 1995.
1. the efficiency of electrical energy to stored chemical energy in H2 + O2 gas was 87%. It had 60 parallel plates acting is series with 120volts each section acting as a 2volt cell. The system ran at 6 Amps
2. The gas evolved is stoichiometric (2H2 + 1O2)
3. The mixture is highly dangerous and prone to explosions when stored in vessels of large crossection.
4. Storing the gas in  small diameter tubing results in implosions and creation of a partial vacuum. This is because water will condense as a liquid on walls if they are close enough and the liquid occupies only 0.1% of the volume of the gases. In a large container too many reaction occur before condensation occurs.
5. Running an engine on Brown's gas is not routine. The dilution with air is necessary fro smooth operation.
6. All the mysterious properties attributed to Brown's gas, such as melting tungsten are simply combustion processes as tungstean wants to be W2O3
7. There is no magic to Brown's gas. Brown was a 'showman' and had to keep moving.
8. That does not mean that the high voltage electrolysis cannot support over-unity energy production.

Thanks for the explanation. I was just going to ask you how this all happens.

As for the OU through electrolysis of water, it can be done even at low voltage electrolysis but for completely different reasons than the ones that are being discussed here. I even have a patent, which has probably expired already (I don't care about patents but was forced to file for one back then by the institution I used to work for ... those were the days ...)

Now, this new aspect of obtaining a gas with much higher energy efficiency than expected is quite interesting and it has nothing to do with the known electrolysis, if what the German scientists are showing is real. That cannot be achieved by the 87% efficiency mentioned by you. Like I said such gas has to be studied calorimetrically to confirm that it really has the properties claimed. Demonstrating a self-sustaining device is even better but it should be done convincingly without the excuses with Chinese cheapos and stuff.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: vrand on April 30, 2010, 04:19:34 PM
See, the sitting on the chair and seeing the car move are the conclusive experiment in your example. On the contrary, in our case here we're not sure if we're dealing with a real phenomenon at all. So, it's not about understanding how it works but whether or not it's just a trivial mistake due to errors in measurement. That's the problem. Proving that it's a real phenomenon in this case isn't as easy as sitting in a chair or turning the ignition key. It doesn't consist in just building those machines. To prove OU or radiation elimination is more involved and that cannot be accomplished by first manufacturing devices and selling them to customers, as in the case of making chairs. The powers that be will immediately use the disgruntled customers to shoot down the research (cf. Perendev). These powers aren't shooting down failed-to-deliver Tokamak or the failed-to-deliver five billion dollar laser fusion project but they will certainly shoot down promptly any OU project at the tiniest opportunity. Therefore there must be iron clad proof that the claimed OU machine is real before setting up a company to sell it to customers the way you have to have a car that moves when driven in order to offer it on the market. Like I said, that isn't easy and hasn't been done yet to satisfy the rigorous criteria of science. Most of what we're seeing are attempts in trying to woo investors with elaborate games based on questionable presentations. Genuine efforts to show quality research openly and competently are a rarity and have not amounted to much so far in convincing those in the know of the validity of the claims.

Sorry to disagree with you  ;)

Technology adoption lifecycle
Beal, Rogers and Bohlen together developed a technology diffusion model[5] and later Everett Rogers generalized the use of it in his widely acclaimed book, Diffusion of Innovations[6] (now in its fifth edition), describing how new ideas and technologies spread in different cultures. Others have since used the model to describe how innovations spread between states in the U.S.[7

The report summarised the categories as:
- innovators - had larger farms, were more educated, more prosperous and more risk-oriented
- early adopters - younger, more educated, tended to be community leaders
- early majority - more conservative but open to new ideas, active in community and influence to neighbours
- late majority - older, less educated, fairly conservative and less socially active
- laggards - very conservative, had small farms and capital, oldest and least educated

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:DiffusionOfInnovation.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:DiffusionOfInnovation.png)

The famous "Bell Curve"

Anybody who buys something new will fit on that curve.  BTW how does one post a photo in a post on this forum?

I am firmly in the "innovator" camp  ;)

No disrespect, but would I categorize you as a "laggard," very conservative, only buys something when all the proofs and theories have been ironed and the product is well established in the market for years. 

Best regards, Mike R.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on April 30, 2010, 04:29:11 PM
I know that theory favored by many libertarians (recall, Gene, a former registered republican later converted to libertarianism). That applies to technology and other utilitarian stuff, not to real scientific innovations. The true revolutions in science that change the world don't work that way. The reality of the effects must first be rigorously proven and only then it can find its way to the market and whatever else. Market is secondary to the true innovations.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: vrand on April 30, 2010, 04:36:16 PM
Thanks for the explanation. I was just going to ask you how this all happens.

As for the OU through electrolysis of water, it can be done even at low voltage electrolysis but for completely different reasons than the ones that are being discussed here. I even have a patent, which has probably expired already (I don't care about patents but was forced to file for one back then by the institution I used to work for ... those were the days ...)

Now, this new aspect of obtaining a gas with much higher energy efficiency than expected is quite interesting and it has nothing to do with the known electrolysis, if what the German scientists are showing is real. That cannot be achieved by the 87% efficiency mentioned by you. Like I said such gas has to be studied calorimetrically to confirm that it really has the properties claimed. Demonstrating a self-sustaining device is even better but it should be done convincingly without the excuses with Chinese cheapos and stuff.

That China genset is actually pretty efficient, as it is an OHV ICE  ;)

They showed a running engine and powering a load, while also powering the Anton cell. To me that is VERY convincing.  They now need to make it stable so one man can operate it and show longer operation run powering a load.

A typical natural gas regulator should work. There are kits that one can get off the internet for small ICE's.

Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: vrand on April 30, 2010, 04:38:46 PM
I know that theory favored by many libertarians (recall, Gene, a former registered republican later converted to libertarianism). That applies to technology and other utilitarian stuff, not to real scientific innovations. The true revolutions in science that change the world don't work that way. The reality of the effects must first be rigorously proven and only then it can find its way to the market and whatever else. Market is secondary to the true innovations.

Lets agree to disagree  ;)

My new signature on this forum  :)
“A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it”
Max Planck
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on April 30, 2010, 04:42:12 PM
Back to this:

Quote
6. All the mysterious properties attributed to Brown's gas, such as melting tungsten are simply combustion processes as tungstean wants to be W2O3

Is it true, then, that you can demonstrate the same thing with a common acetylene or some other torch? How about turning a brick into a puddle of liquid or deactivating 60Co? What was all that about?
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on April 30, 2010, 04:43:33 PM
That China genset is actually pretty efficient, as it is an OHV ICE  ;)

They showed a running engine and powering a load, while also powering the Anton cell. To me that is VERY convincing.  They now need to make it stable so one man can operate it and show longer operation run powering a load.

A typical natural gas regulator should work. There are kits that one can get off the internet for small ICE's.

I agree. If that's made reproducible and stable that will be very convincing. Not yet, though.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on April 30, 2010, 04:47:12 PM
Lets agree to disagree  ;)

My new signature on this forum  :)
“A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it”
Max Planck


Of course, that's the case. We are arguing about the method of establishing the new truth and I'm saying market isn't the criterion. There are firmly established scientific criteria for establishing novelty in science let alone novelty of such significance as the one we're discussing. Market, products and the like should be left alone for the time being and focus should be on the scientific research and its criteria to find out if what's being claimed is real.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on April 30, 2010, 04:49:37 PM
The market approach is what's causing Steorn, Randy Mills, Mark Goldes, Perendev, Yildiz, Kapanadze, Valeri Ivanov etc. etc., you name it, to stall. That's a tragic state of affairs giving a lot of ammunition to the zealous activist naysayers incited in various ways by the powers that be.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: h2ocommuter on April 30, 2010, 05:48:33 PM
Omnibus, I have to agree with one caveat,

The market approach has two sides to it, one being the world manufacturing, and the other individual replicators.

The world market is virtually impossible to breach, being sustained by consortium's and conglomerates that like what they allready have.
The other being individuals have a infinitely better chance of accomplishing dominance of the technology, being the number of replicators delivering the same product.
This is the secret in my opinion. it is not the technology but how it is widely produced.

Here we have two roads "The Fork", choose wisely and the world becomes your oyster.

Choose wrongly and you get a patent contract. This document is of no value.
If you can build a system that has "merit", you will have no problems delivering all you personally can manufacture.

Just remember SM beginning, Simple with an objective, "produce a fuel that would power an automobile, soon it was accomplished. Well some how he figured the patent process would protect his wonderful invention and it was taken from his original plan.
If we are to succeed in any of these technologies one must get over the love affair with the patent office and this wonderful protection form each other we fear.

my shinny 2 cents

h2ocommuter
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on April 30, 2010, 05:58:17 PM
That would be true as long as we have the technology. Just building something doesn't mean we have it. There are strict scientific requirements to determine its reality and that's not the market, individual or dominant, that determines it. OU will win if those who have succeeded make it so that thousands of replicators produce it just to show that is works, not for the purposes of selling it to anybody. That's the only way to put the powers that be in the corner -- by not playing their market game (market belongs to them 100%) but by overwhelming them with facts they can't deny and suppress.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: the badger on April 30, 2010, 06:13:06 PM
To the gentlemen who are working on this project I say this. Keep doing what you are doing. Don't waste your time and energy on all the calorimetric testing, university crap just to satisfy people on this forum. If they want that done then tell them to get off their butts and do it themselves. They obviously have time to do it as they spend hours typing on this forum. Just use what you have and refine it. Keeping it a cheap backyard experiment will ensure that others will be able to afford to replicate it. Once it is working good share it with us. The governments and oil companies will ensure that this never becomes a commercial success. Hard to suppress it if everyone is building their own.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: vrand on April 30, 2010, 06:17:14 PM
Quote from: Omnibus link=topic=9099.msg239712#msg239712 A=1272638832
Of course, that's the case. We are arguing about the method of establishing the new truth and I'm saying market isn't the criterion. There are firmly established scientific criteria for establishing novelty in science let alone novelty of such significance as the one we're discussing. Market, products and the like should be left alone for the time being and focus should be on the scientific research and its criteria to find out if what's being claimed is real.

We have already established that to do the research will cost lots of money that is not currently available.

How does one get funds to do the research?
1. Sell products.
2. Ask for free money from someone.
3. Save funds from your "day job."

#1 above is the quickest way to get funds, ask Microsoft how they did it  ;)
#2 is difficult in this recession economy.
#3 can take months to years to save enough funds.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on April 30, 2010, 06:19:48 PM
To the gentlemen who are working on this project I say this. Keep doing what you are doing. Don't waste your time and energy on all the calorimetric testing, university crap just to satisfy people on this forum. If they want that done then tell them to get off their butts and do it themselves. They obviously have time to do it as they spend hours typing on this forum. Just use what you have and refine it. Keeping it a cheap backyard experiment will ensure that others will be able to afford to replicate it. Once it is working good share it with us. The governments and oil companies will ensure that this never becomes a commercial success. Hard to suppress it if everyone is building their own.

Everyone here, even those with a lot of time on their hands, agreed that having a reproducible, stable self-sustaining device is the best thing to happen. It hasn't happened yet, unfortunately. Now, what do we do if a self-sustaining device isn't achieved by the gentlemen, then what do we do? Shall we abandon the experiments or we should do calorimetric measurements and should study this further to understand if it's a real phenomenon or not? What do we do in such a case?
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on April 30, 2010, 06:31:44 PM
We have already established that to do the research will cost lots of money that is not currently available.

How does one get funds to do the research?
1. Sell products.
2. Ask for free money from someone.
3. Save funds from your "day job."

#1 above is the quickest way to get funds, ask Microsoft how they did it  ;)
#2 is difficult in this recession economy.
#3 can take months to years to save enough funds.

Microsoft isn't a good example. Theirs was already known to be real -- they (Gates and Allen) were even employed by someone in Albuquerque who was already selling desktop computers with an operating system prior to any Microsoft in the horizon. Here we don't have any tangible marketable product made let alone convincing scientific proof for most of the claims.

The only way is to use your own money. If you can't afford it, too bad. We're living in a cruel world if you haven't noticed it. This is a very specific area of research and if you don't know and/or don't have the inclination to finagle (to spare the word lie) with investors giving them the impression there will (soon) be a product that will change the world and in the meantime they will get a return on their investment, forget that way of funding. Governmental funding you might as well forget about form the get go. I wonder if you remember Gene, Ed Storms and Randy appearing before congress and that hot fusion person making faces behind their back. Forget it. Use your own money, no other way.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: the badger on April 30, 2010, 06:36:46 PM
These gentlemen don't have to prove anything to anyone. They don't owe us a thing. It is nice of them to share what they are doing and keeping us informed. If they get it self running so that it stays running and it gives more, then it is OU. That's all the proof anyone should need. Anything else is a waste of time that can be left to the science community.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on April 30, 2010, 06:39:19 PM
The great discoveries in science were either made by people who were independently wealthy or were talents plucked out from the crowd and supported by the powers that be when what they were doing was in the interest of the military or the overall standing of the nation. OU isn't that kind of a thing and official support cannot be expected but an independently wealthy cannot be prevented (up to a point) from exploring it.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on April 30, 2010, 06:52:48 PM
These gentlemen don't have to prove anything to anyone. They don't owe us a thing. It is nice of them to share what they are doing and keeping us informed. If they get it self running so that it stays running and it gives more, then it is OU. That's all the proof anyone should need. Anything else is a waste of time that can be left to the science community.

If we agree to that we would agree to condone just anything perpetrated over the internet. People have responsibilities, though. Even the anonymous users of the internet do. That's the elementary human ethics of a civilized society. So, yes they owe us an explanation once they have placed it to be observed and discussed publicly. Otherwise the society will turn into a jungle.

Further, if their effort to build a self-sustaining device turns out to be unsuccessful (hope that won't turn out be the case) that will not be the end of the research in this area. The end of the research in this area can only be brought about by careful in-depth scientific exploration of the purported phenomenon. And, in the case of current self-running trial turning unsuccessful but the scientific research reveling it's a real phenomenon then further, more sophisticated efforts will inevitably bring about a self-sustaining technology. Rigorous scientific research is inevitable in these matters and trying to find a shortcut doesn't work overwhelmingly, history tells us.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: vrand on April 30, 2010, 07:20:22 PM
These gentlemen don't have to prove anything to anyone. They don't owe us a thing. It is nice of them to share what they are doing and keeping us informed. If they get it self running so that it stays running and it gives more, then it is OU. That's all the proof anyone should need. Anything else is a waste of time that can be left to the science community.

I agree.  "build it and they will come" is my motto  ;)

Now if they can make it work stable, get a gas regulator on the input, I would like to buy a unit from them, or if it is too expensive (euro is expensive) then make my own unit if possible.

Not everyone will buy the newest invention. Some will wait for more scientific proof. Some will wait years before buying anything that does not have a long history or "track record" of sucess and have years of warranties guarantees.

Not me, I want to get "off the electric grid" and make my own electricity, as the rates are rising every year!

Oliver & Valentin, just make it work with what you have, show a video, document your existing setup so other researchers can replicate and verify that it works.

The Anton cell is not cheap so not many researchers will be able to afford to build a unit right now.  But some will have the funds to try to replicate  ;)

Regards, Mike R.

Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: briansahern on April 30, 2010, 07:43:58 PM
One cannot pull off the Yul Brown tricks with other fuels, because they produce a non-condensable gas (CO2). This will not condense into a liquid like the hydrogen gas does under properly controlled conditions.

People are generally unfamiliar with combustion with stoichiometric mixtures of H2 and O2 and for good reasons. They would generally  take themselves out of Darwinian selection when a large volume of the gas was inadvertently collected.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: vrand on April 30, 2010, 08:41:43 PM
One cannot pull off the Yul Brown tricks with other A, because they produce a non-condensable gas (CO2). This will not condense into a liquid like the hydrogen gas does under properly controlled conditions.

People are generally unfamiliar with combustion with stoichiometric mixtures of H2 and O2 and for good reasons. They would generally  take themselves out of Darwinian selection when a large volume of the gas was inadvertently collected.

Yeah, Yull Brown showed that intereesting property of 100% HHO in one of his video demonstrations, that a combustion of stoichiometric mixtures of H2 and O2, you get a VACUUM as the gas returned to liquid water. 

Now if you mix HHO with air, up to 130 to 1 lean air/fuel ratio (such as used to fuel engines), then you get explosive energy release upon spark ignition.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: mscoffman on April 30, 2010, 08:50:07 PM

These gentlemen don't have to prove anything to anyone. They don't owe us a thing. It is nice of them to share what they are doing and keeping us informed. If they get it self running so that it stays running and it gives more, then it is OU. That's all the proof anyone should need. Anything else is a waste of time that can be left to the science community.


Truly they don't owe us anything. But logic dictates a path that should not be
so hard to follow. But like the Tilly affair, these people often don't seem to behave
logically.  And then the gaps in their systemic knowledge start to show up, and
soon they are accused of fraud.

I think anyone wanting to sell equipment should start out like Anton, then shift to a
logical basis so that those in the field understand their intent, and Anton still might
behave this way, we don't know. I'm not sure why their equipment is as expensive
as Omnibus says it is, it actually look pretty simple, but well designed. Also I don't
know if anyone noticed, but they could make hydrogen fuel-cells in a very similar
manner. But they may be too busy trying to eat everyone elses lunches to to see
this.

The problem is that in the real word CF energy actually vests twice. Once
as HHO gain and once as Plasma gains due to the recycled exhaust H2O.
The two stage gains multiply so as to become visible. The trick is to recognize
the HHO gain before the complexity of the situation also multiplies and parameter
control is lost.

I am afraid that the best we can hope for is someone who knows they have
electrolyser gain sees the Anton approach and actually wants to sell product,
repeats it, but does so with a provable video.

In the instance of the personal computer industry there is a difference;
In the computer industry both the hardware performance was/is new but
the software capabilities are/were also new. In the energy industry only
the hardware is new, we all know precisely what we will be doing with it.
 
:S:MarkSCoffman
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on April 30, 2010, 08:55:44 PM
See, one of their simpler cells sells for over a thousand dollars. That's expensive if one is to only explore their claim. At least there should be a good reason to do so. So far I don't see one in strictly scientific terms. Just a video with claims for self-sustaining run isn't enough. We've seen a lot of videos. Where will we end up if we're to buy  for a thousand dollars the equipment shown in every video?
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: mscoffman on April 30, 2010, 09:00:57 PM
@All

With (HHO or hydrogen) + air.  The pollution called NOx is still produced
during combustion. I guess is another good reason to discharge the exhaust
gas to the atmosphere.

:S:MarkSCoffman
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on April 30, 2010, 09:16:15 PM
Quote
The pollution called NOx is still produced
during combustion.

Do you have any hard data to back this up?
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: vrand on April 30, 2010, 09:38:17 PM
See, one of their simpler cells A for over a thousand dollars. That's expensive if one is to only explore their claim. At least there should be a good reason to do so. So far I don't see one in strictly scientific terms. Just a video with claims for self-sustaining run isn't enough. We've seen a lot of videos. Where will we end up if we're to buy  for a thousand dollars the equipment shown in every video?

Yes, the cost to do this experiment is around $2750 = $2225 (3) Anton cells (1650 euro x 1.35) + $250 genset + $250 misc. costs such as shipping, taxes etc.

So for 1000 watts genset output it would cost around $2.75 per watt.  That is a okay cost and competes well with solar panels at $2/watt.

Still unknown:
- Do they sand treat the plate surfaces? 
- Do they condition the plates in NaHO or KOH?
- Distilled or RO water used?
- What type of stainless steel they are using, 304L, 316L, 317L ? 
 

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fanton-shop.com%2Fnew%2Fen%2Fcontent%2Fanton&sl=de&tl=en&hl=&ie=UTF-8 (http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fanton-shop.com%2Fnew%2Fen%2Fcontent%2Fanton&sl=de&tl=en&hl=&ie=UTF-8)

Anton
 
€ 550.00
including VAT
excluding shipping costs

The simple Anton consists of 10 chambers (11 electrodes made of a particularly high-quality stainless steel alloy, Size: 300mm x 150mm).
The multi-functional separation elements are more than just simple Seals:
From the extremely robust high-tech material Viton ® for injection molding manufacture,
give it to the stack Anton equally tailor stability and high reliability.
The outer plates are made of sturdy molded polycarbonate.
This simple kit Anton is 12 volts or 24 volts operating voltage design (2 x 5 chambers).
The dimensions of the finished kit:
Width: 350 mm, height: 225mm, Depth: 65mm.
Active electrolysis area: 9000 cm ² (= 0.9 m²)
For the operation of about 150 watts per liter of gas are required per minute.
In normal operations about 3.5 liters of gas per minute can be produced.
Short term by increased electrical power can be produced more gas.

Delivery:
Two plexiglass cover plates including connection nipples for water and gas
11 stainless steel plates (electrodes)
12 multi-functional separation elements made of Viton

Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on April 30, 2010, 09:51:34 PM
I think they said they're using three Anton cells filled with 3% KOH. So, that's more than $2000. Pretreatment, conditioning etc. will also be revealed, I guess, since they stated that's an open source project. The volts and amps are seen in the video -- 11-12V and 25-60A, something on that order. It's important to understand also exactly how they prepare the non-stoichiometric mixture from the inevitably stoichiometric during the electrolysis (unless some new phenomenon is at play here causing it to be non-stoichiometric even during electrolysis).

I don't think it has reached a stage to use it at your home so I won't make such calculations. The cost I'm interested in is solely in terms of purely research purposes.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: vrand on April 30, 2010, 09:52:26 PM
Quote
Anton
 
€ 550.00
including VAT
excluding shipping costs

The A Anton consists of 10 chambers (11 electrodes made of a particularly high-quality stainless steel alloy, Size: 300mm x 150mm).
The multi-functional separation elements are more than just simple Seals:
From the extremely robust high-tech material Viton ® for injection molding manufacture,
give it to the stack Anton equally tailor stability and high reliability.
The outer plates are made of sturdy molded polycarbonate.
This simple kit Anton is 12 volts or 24 volts operating voltage design (2 x 5 chambers).
The dimensions of the finished kit:
Width: 350 mm, height: 225mm, Depth: 65mm.
Active electrolysis area: 9000 cm ² (= 0.9 m²)
For the operation of about 150 watts per liter of gas are required per minute.
In normal operations about 3.5 liters of gas per minute can be produced.
Short term by increased electrical power can be produced more gas.


Watt/hr. per Liter calc:
150 watts/L x 3.5L/min. = 525 watts for 3.5L/min.
3.5L/min. x 60 min./hr. = 210L/hr.
525 watts/210L/hr. = 2.5 Wh/L

The Anton cell at 2.5 Wh/L is lower electrical energy input into the cells than the Eagle Research unit at 3 Wh/L.   ;)
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on April 30, 2010, 10:00:37 PM

I have to wonder if the high frequency pulsing and sharp spikes of the joule thief be useful in powering the Anton device.

Regards...

Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: vrand on April 30, 2010, 10:26:59 PM
I think they said they're using three Anton cells filled with 3% KOH. So, that's more than $2000. Pretreatment, conditioning etc. will also be revealed, I guess, since they stated that's an open source project. The volts and amps are seen in the video -- 11-12V and 25-60A, something on that order. It's important to understand also exactly how they prepare the non-stoichiometric mixture from the inevitably stoichiometric during the A (unless some new phenomenon is at play here causing it to be non-stoichiometric even during electrolysis).

I don't think it has reached a stage to use it at your home so I won't make such calculations. The cost I'm interested in is solely in terms of purely A purposes.

Interesting design points of the Anton Cell:
- The top hole gas space where the gases are collected, there is still some plate area ABOVE the gas space.
- The plate area above the gases has the same current/voltage as below the gases in the water. Maybe the HHO gases are being energized to a higher energy level?!
- Maybe the H & O electrons are being stripped from the HHO gas?  This would raise the atomic H & O atoms to a higher energy level.
- Depending on the water used, natural water has up to 15% Nitrogen gas in water.
- Maybe the Nitrogen in the cell water is also electrolyzed with the HHO and energized by the plate area above the gas hole to create NH3 ammonia? 

The HHO gas is typically made up of atomic Hydrogen & Oxygen atoms that will want to recombined to liquid water as soon as possible (this will release energy). So the need to use them and ignite inside the engine as fast as possible (to use all the energy to push down the piston) works good for "on-demand" HHO production and the no need for storage of the HHO.
 
The steel plate area space above the gas port is the first time I have seen done, with the "dry cell" designs out in the market.  Maybe something special is happening in there.   
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on April 30, 2010, 10:40:01 PM
Let's be reasonable. Most of this just can't be.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: vrand on April 30, 2010, 10:49:07 PM
Let's be reasonable. Most of this just can't be.

One way to find out  :)

Hiden HAL Quadrupole Mass Spectrometer
$600+132sh
http://cgi.ebay.com/Hiden-HAL-Quadrupole-Mass-Spectrometer-/120444537359?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c0b0dca0f (http://cgi.ebay.com/Hiden-HAL-Quadrupole-Mass-Spectrometer-/120444537359?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c0b0dca0f)

HAL 3F Mass Spectrometers
Triple Filter Quadrupoles for Precision Gas Analysis and Scientific Applications

http://www.hidenanalytical.com/index.php/en/product-catalog/35-triple-filter-quadrupoles/49-hal-3f-mass-spectrometers (http://www.hidenanalytical.com/index.php/en/product-catalog/35-triple-filter-quadrupoles/49-hal-3f-mass-spectrometers)

Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on April 30, 2010, 11:01:00 PM
Well, yes, that's the way to go.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: vrand on April 30, 2010, 11:22:02 PM
[A author=Omnibus link=topic=9099.msg239774#msg239774 date=1272661260]
Well, yes, that's the way to go.
[/quote]

Yep, but due to the high costs they need to search alternative ways of getting access to a mass spectrometer.  Maybe they can borrow one from the local college/university?  I have done that in the past at my alma mater. Maybe they can find someone who graduated from the physics dept. and that person can loan it out to do some tests for them.  Would also need someone who knew how to work the unit. 

Showing a video of their engine running on water to the local professors might also get their attention to then be able to do some lab tests.  That genset is small enough to put in the trunk of a car and carry it to a lab.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: mscoffman on May 01, 2010, 02:10:48 AM

Do you have any hard data to back this up?


@Omnibus;

Try the link:
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/tech_validation/pdfs/fcm03r0.pdf

Chapter 3.8 - Emissions

This document also explains some of the things that need to be done
in a hydrogen ICE conversion.

:S:MarkSCoffman
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on May 01, 2010, 03:14:47 AM
Thanks a lot, @mscoffman, interesting document, indeed.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: vrand on May 01, 2010, 08:03:00 AM
@Omnibus;

Try the link:
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/tech_validation/pdfs/fcm03r0.pdf

Chapter 3.8 - Emissions

This document also explains some of the things that need to be done
in a hydrogen ICE conversion.

:S:MarkSCoffman

Thank you Mark, an interesting read!

Quote
3.5 Ignition Systems
Due  to hydrogen’s  low ignition energy limit, igniting hydro-
gen is easy and gasoline ignition systems can  be  used.  At
very lean air/fuel ratios (130:1 to 180:1)
the flame velocity is
reduced considerably and the use of a dual spark plug sys-
tem is preferred

Maybe they got the air to HHO gas mixture just right at very high lean ratios and did not need more than 6 LPM of the HHO to run & power the loads?

They did say that they had to adjust the air intake (did not say how).

The Anton cell close plate spacing (?mm) will have less electrical resistance, more efficient HHO gas production, and less heat generated, compared to other "dry cell" designs out in the market place with wider cell spacings.  At 2.5 Wh/L is very good although Woodpeckers design got down to 1.33 Wh/L when he used 1 mm spacing.

How tu build a drycell electrolyzer English vers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DJDKYXmIWM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DJDKYXmIWM)

Some questions:
- Why only 3% KOH?  The more KOH the less electrical input to generate the same amount of HHO.
- Why 3 Anton cell units at 7 plates each vs just making just 1 large 21 plate unit?  Might be able to lower the cell cost.
- Are the plates sanded, to increase gas output by allowing the gas bubbles more easily to remove from the plate surface?

Looking forward to their next video!   :)

Regards, Mike R.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: pese on May 01, 2010, 08:45:26 AM
@Omnibus;

Try the link:
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/tech_validation/pdfs/fcm03r0.pdf

Chapter 3.8 - Emissions

This document also explains some of the things that need to be done
in a hydrogen ICE conversion.

:S:MarkSCoffman

I remeber for "ICE" as combusing exlosiv part in enginge,
following that i  found 5 years ago, an i have "saved" for myself.

eventually you can find a solution for your research now:

------------------------------------------------------

Even Dingle's cell doesn't seem particularly advanced. Here is a different perspective, and it is based on both theory and experimental evidence, but I am not yet to the stage of trying it on an actual auto engine.

Auch Dingle der Zelle scheint nicht besonders weit fortgeschritten. Hier ist eine andere Perspektive, und es ist auf Theorie und experimentelle Beweise gestützt, aber ich bin noch nicht auf die Bühne zu versuchen, sie auf einer tatsächlichen Auto-Motor.

My best guess on how an engine is able to sustain operation on water-fuel does NOT depend on electrolysis - I see electrolysis itself as only supplying a small fraction (~20 % or less) of the required energy - the rest comes from (don't laugh yet) ice explosion - that's right, very small particles of ice that are formed by phase-change in a partial vacuum (.5 bar) and then immediately entrained into the intake manifold and exploded. The main purpose of the modified electrolysis cell is to supply the hydrogen and other chemical intermediaries needed to create *extremely fast* flame spread, in order to quickly raise a compressed mixture of air, solid ice particulates and fuel above the instability range.

Meine beste Schätzung, wie ein Motor ist in der Lage, den Betrieb auf dem Wasser aufrecht-Kraftstoff nicht auf die Elektrolyse ab - ich sehe Elektrolyse selbst versorgen, da nur ein kleiner Teil (~ 20% oder weniger) der benötigten Energie - der Rest kommt von "nicht - Lachen " ) einer Eis Explosion - das ist richtig, explodierte sehr kleinen Partikeln aus Eis, die von Phase gebildet werden, Veränderung in einer Unterdruck (.5 bar) und dann sofort in das Saugrohr und mitgerissen. Der Hauptzweck des modifizierten Elektrolyse Zelle wird mit dem Wasserstoff und anderen chemischen Vermittler erforderlich, um * * extrem schnelle Ausbreitung von Feuer zu Lieferengpässen kommen, um schnell zu erhöhen, um eine komprimierte Gemisch aus Luft, Partikel festes Eis und Kraftstoff über die Instabilität Bereich.



That's right, ice has an instability range and if you overcome that barrier, ice will violently sublimate and explode with a force of perhaps 30,000 psi. (2300bar)
Das ist richtig, hat Eis eine Instabilität Bereich und wenn Sie diese Barriere zu überwinden, wird heftig Eis zu sublimieren, und explodieren mit einer Kraft von etwa 30.000 psi. (2300bar)
Here is a more detailed explanation of this hypothesis: *Explosive Ice Instability and Water-Fuel* Getting small ice crystals to explode violently is not well-known, nor an easy thing to accomplish, and there is only one (Russian) study on the internet that is relevant to this process: "Explosive Ice Instability," EG Fateev
http://alt-nrg.de/pppp/432.pdf
The chart on the second page shows a critical point for Explosive Ice Instability at T ~ 225 K and P ~ 0.03 GPa.
Hier ist eine genauere Erklärung für diese Hypothese: * Explosive Ice Instabilität und Wasser-Fuel * Anreise kleinen Eiskristallen zu explodieren heftig ist nicht bekannt, noch eine einfache Sache zu leisten, und es gibt nur ein (Russisch) Studie über die Internet, um diesen Prozess relevant ist: "Explosive Ice Instabilität," EG Fateev
http://alt-nrg.de/pppp/432.pdf Die Tabelle auf der zweiten Seite zeigt ein kritischer Punkt für Explosive Ice Instabilität bei T ~ 225 K und P ~ 0,03 GPa.


Gustav Pese



Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on May 01, 2010, 09:15:44 AM
Concentration of the electrolyte and its nature plays a more complex role in the kinteics of the evolution of both gases so 3% KOH may be an optimal concentration. That doesn't bother me. I can't see, however, based on the standard understanding, how overunity can be achieved under these conditions. There must be something either hitherto unknown happening or what we're seeing, shown by the German colleagues, is just some kind of an experimental error. As seen from the text @mscoffman provided, operating a standard ICE fueled by a hydrogen-air mixture poses complex technical challenges adding to the inefficiency. Therefore, if there's an OU effect due to the electrolysis it has to be so substantial that it would be possible to detect easily even prior to feeding an ICE with its products and getting into even more technical problems.

Aside from the electrolysis, I don't see how the burning of the fuel in the ICE would contribute to an eventual OU effect either, let alone that if there is such it probably would have already been detected when hydrogen as fuel is supplied from sources other than electrolysis. That doesn't seem to be the case.

It would have been easier to study the electrochemical side first and see if there are promises for OU. However, now that the system with the ICE is available the brute force approach to solving this conundrum, by demonstrating in reproducible manner that the system is self-sustaining, is a viable option to definitively conclude that this is anything but trivial. Thus, I, as @vrand, am looking forward to their next video.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on May 01, 2010, 09:24:49 AM
@pese,

That's a really exotic hypothesis. To induce pressure, however, one has to do work (in our case at the expense of burning hydrogen). Where's the evidence that ice explosion will not only compensate for the work done but will also add excess energy?
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: vrand on May 01, 2010, 09:43:12 AM
I remeber for "ICE" as combusing exlosiv part in enginge,
following that i  found 5 years ago, an i have "saved" for myself.

eventually you can find a solution for your research now:


Gustav Pese

Interesting idea Gustav  :)

Here is another theory to explain the Over Unity performance of the Anton HHO cell, and other HHO researchers such as Stan Meyer, in the past running an engine.

Water Dissociation Using Zero Point Energy
by Moray B. King
Moray B. King has put forth a scientific model that suggests that the reason so many experimenters are observing more energy emerging from their electrolysis systems than what they put into it, is that the configuration harnesses zero point energy.
http://freeenergynews.com/Directory/Electrolysis/Moray_King/WaterFuelZPE2009.ppt (http://freeenergynews.com/Directory/Electrolysis/Moray_King/WaterFuelZPE2009.ppt)

"There are many names for the gas produced by the electrolyzers. Yull Brown is credited with recognizing and investigating the energetic anomalies of the gas as he was applying it to welding applications, and so perhaps is justified to name it after him. Most researchers believe the gas is simply a 2:1 mixture of hydrogen and oxygen. Brown hypothesized that the gas was atomic hydrogen and oxygen in his attempts to explain the strange energetic effects, and thus the name HHO has remained popular. Hydroxy is another popular name. George Wiseman, who was one of the first to recognized the dominant gas produced was not hydrogen, suggested it was “electrically expanded water.” Here we will consider a similar hypothesis: the gas is actually charged water gas clusters, which activate and cohere the zero-point energy. As we shall see, the gas is wide open for new names as investigators begin to realize that the important, energetic constituent is not hydrogen and claim that they are the first to discover this (since nearly everyone participating on the web believes the energetic gas is hydrogen).

"Here we will entertain the hypothesis that the dominant energy is not from hydrogen. The best support for the hypothesis is the big anomalies observed regarding Brown’s gas: It exhibits a cool flame (130 degrees F), yet it can sublimate tungsten (vaporization point over 10000 degrees F). Burning hydrogen cannot do that. Also there are experiments which show it can even dramatically reduce radioactivity in radioactive material. Burning hydrogen certainly cannot do that. Moreover, when the gas is analyzed in appropriately equipped laboratories, researchers find very little hydrogen. Instead they detect gaseous, water clusters with excess electrons."

"The hypothesis that the zero-point energy is the actual energy source for Brown’s gas comes from observing an experimental coincidence. Charged water gas clusters exhibit the same energetic anomalies as the plasma charged clusters, a microscopic form of ball lightning that has been extensively studied in the experiments by Ken Shoulders. He originally named them “Electrum Validum” (EV) meaning “strong charge,” and later named them “exotic vacuum objects” (EVO) when he became convinced that their excess energy was cohered from the zero-point vacuum fluctuations. To further support the hypothesis, we will review a reference that shows how zero-point energy can be coherently activated within a collapsing microscopic bubble of water via cavity quantum electrodynamics."

Regards, Mike R.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on May 01, 2010, 09:56:54 AM
That was discussed earlier in the thread. Zero point energy is a deficiency in quantum mechanics which has to be dealt with in order to improve quantum mechanics rather than use it as a candidate explanation of whatever. Dismiss it outright, let alone that OU still hasn't been demonstrated conclusively in the case we're discussing. Let us see first what the follow up videos will show prior to speculating, especially on bogus grounds.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: pese on May 01, 2010, 11:21:09 AM
@pese,

That's a really exotic hypothesis. To induce pressure, however, one has to do work (in our case at the expense of burning hydrogen). Where's the evidence that ice explosion will not only compensate for the work done but will also add excess energy?
Denken Sie daran, dass jeder Vakuum und plötzlicher Luftunterdruck, wird die Luftfeuchtigkeit  vereisen.
Nano- Eis kristalle,.
Auch der Dampf ( Nebel) aus dem HHO Bubbler wird vereisen.

Diesen Effekt haben Sie auch durch den engen Luftdurchgang im GEEZ Reaktor.
Dieser ist viel zu eng für eine normale Luftversorgung des Motors !!
Dass heisst, es gibt ein starkes Vakuum und "possible" entstehende Nano-Eis-Kristalle werden eine "Extra" Kraft erzeugen
Remember that any sudden vacuum and air pressure, humidity will freeze.
Nano-ice crystals.
Even the vapor (fog) from the HHO Bubbler will freeze.

They also have this effect by the narrow air passage in GEEZ reactor.
This is far too narrow for a normal air supply to the engine!
That is, there is a strong vacuum and "possible" emerging nano-ice crystals are an "extra" generating force


offcause the google-translation, i send the actual "german" source of it aditionally - because some translated word can possibly missinterpredet from "tramslator".

Gustav Pese
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: vrand on May 01, 2010, 01:57:12 PM
That was discussed earlier in the thread. Zero point energy is a deficiency in quantum mechanics which has to be dealt with in order to improve quantum mechanics rather than use it as a candidate explanation of whatever. Dismiss it outright, let alone that OU still hasn't been demonstrated conclusively in the case we're discussing. Let us see first what the follow up videos will show prior to speculating, especially on bogus grounds.

Self running for "hours heating the office" on just water is OU in my book.   ;)

Moray also makes a good case explaining the anomalous properties of Browns Gas (what the Anton Cell is making), that have been demonstrated for decades, using ZPE and Ken Shoulders "charge clusters." 
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on May 01, 2010, 03:16:06 PM
Self-running for hours heating the office has to be reproduced independently. At least that, even prior to applying load. There are other suggestions also, such as that the system is a heat pump. At this stage what we see in the vid is on the order of other OU claims shown in multiple videos -- mostly wetting the appetite.

Again, it has to be understood what is causing the OU. Is it the electrolysis or what goes on in the ICE? The electrolysis is pretty trivial in its essence and I'd be amazed if it is at the basis of the effect, let alone that the cells being undivided would suggest worsening of the output gas volume. Besides, if there's anything unusual in the run of the cells it should be easily detected prior to getting into trouble to involve ICE. If, on the other hand,  what happens in the ICE is at the basis of the effect then one may think it should've been noticed earlier when hydrogen as fuel has been studied. Electrolysis in such a case would only be the supplier of the hydrogen and supply of hydrogen can be insured in other non-electrochemical ways. It should be obvious that the mere turning of H2 and O2 back to H2O cannot be the OU mechanism. The involvement of nitrogen interaction with oxygen to cause OU isn't clear too as a mechnism of OU, zpe is out. Further, it isn't clear how the he vacuum_creating_ice theory would be the mechanism for excess energy either. Etc., etc ... So, again, study separately the two elements of the system -- the cell and the ICE -- or, since it's already available, demonstrate reproducibly self-sustaining run of the system. That run has to be estabished as an undeniable fact, reproduced by third parties, prior to any attempts at explaining it.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Thaelin on May 02, 2010, 03:19:56 PM
   I remember right here on OU it was said that an HHO
cell could not produce enough gas output to sustain the
operation of the motor. 
   The motor will have to be fixed with a controller that
can react fast enough to the conditions as used in cars
today. We are standing at the crossroads of tomorrow
and we 'will' move forward. The future demands it.

thaelin
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Cloxxki on May 02, 2010, 05:11:46 PM
What if the Anton cell were to be found able to produce a limited amount of gas or its input, but cherry-pick watermocules for greatest effect, leaving the lesser interesting ones unbroken?
I could see a system cherry-picking some 100g from 1000kg of water, for easy breaking and powerful explosion/implosion, leaving 900g of water "only interested for watering plants". Is cherrypicking water OU? You're not using the hypothesized 90%, and for anyone else, it's still good as water.

A car might run on plain water, just need a whole lot of it, giving most of it back after use.

I'll just throw in here, that a more efficient design of engine would greatly increase the chance of a successfully looped system. Stuff like Tommey Reed explores with his engine designs, no inefficient crank shafts suppressing the might of the explosions.
Should the OU effect be too small to be made to work reliably now, such a way might help out. Like a gravity wheel that is dragging heavily on the ground, wasting 50% of the input right there, and thus bare allowed to work.

Good luck to the researchers!!
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: vrand on May 02, 2010, 06:58:13 PM
Charged Water Clusters theory of Common Duct Electrolyzers
By Moray King:

"t has been observed over the years that the typical Brown’s gas generators which have a wide spacing between the electrodes manifest three sets of bubbles between the electrodes.  Hydrogen is produced on the negative electrode and oxygen is produced on the positive electrode as would be expected in standard electrolysis. However, in the middle there appears a set of bubbles that many researchers believe is the most energetic component, the hypothesized charged water gas clusters.

When the electrodes are tightly spaced, any free oxygen and hydrogen atoms can easily join the cluster. Hydrogen atoms tend to combine with whatever they hit on first collision. Thus tightly spaced electrodes would produce more charged water gas clusters and less free hydrogen."

So the Anton cell design with 1 mm spacing is creating more of the ZPE "Charged Water Clusters" than other designs that have wider spacing electrodes. That would explain why other Brown's gas researchers have not been able to run there engines off their cells.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: haithar on May 02, 2010, 07:02:27 PM
I have seen this presentation, but many questions arise.

How does he know that the large bubbles are "charged water clusters"?
Why are charged water clusters gaseous?
Why are charged water clusters from zero-point energy?
And so on ..
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: vrand on May 02, 2010, 07:44:05 PM
I have seen this presentation, but many questions arise.

How does he know that the large bubbles are "charged water clusters"?
Why are charged water clusters gaseous?
Why are charged water clusters from zero-point energy?
And so on ..

Charged water clusters is the name Moray King calls them. Other "Brown's Gas" researchers, have seen this phenomenon of the 3 types of bubbles

Brown's Gas researcher George Wiseman called this middle gas "electrified water".  His cell design was 3/8" spacing, so it was easy to see this middle gas bubbles created.

Moray's ZPE theory seems to fit all the anomalies of Brown's Gas and can be explain using quantum electrodynamics. Until someone comes up with another theory, this looks good to me.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: haithar on May 03, 2010, 09:58:37 AM
do you have a link to that theory?
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: flavian on May 03, 2010, 04:43:48 PM
I am glad someone managed to go one step further.

I managed to obtain 500W from my generator 2 years ago: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJLgv20LEF8

I was using 2000W in order to do this with my cell because my engine needed 14LPm in order to run. The engine was not timing adjusted, it actually had no modifications at all. See video description.

Searching for resonance on my cells I stopped playing with the generator, but it is so great that someone did it.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: vrand on May 03, 2010, 08:25:08 PM
I am glad someone managed to go one step further.

I managed to obtain 500W from my generator 2 years ago: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJLgv20LEF8

I was using 2000W in order to do this with my cell because my engine needed 14LPm in order to run. The engine was not timing adjusted, it actually had no modifications at all. See video description.

Searching for resonance on my cells I stopped playing with the generator, but it is so great that someone did it.

Hi flavian,
Thank you for sharing your HHO work!

Yes, it is very exciting to see someone finally running an engine on water while powering the cells and loads. Since the 1970's-1980's there were reports of Yull Brown running cars in Australia using his series cell "Brown's Gas" electrolyzer design. But no one figured out how he did it all these years.

It looks like the Anton cell designers got it right the first time.  :)

For those that are unfamiliar about the Bob Boyce series cell design read on.  For those that understand the Boyce design can skip to the bottom.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

The Bob Boyce 101 cell design is basically the resonance reaction of his OU toroidal transformer, that Boyce says taps into the Tesla Longitudinal Energy that his toroid makes from his PWM pulses, that then goes to his 101 cell where it resonants the 101 plates that then converts the toroid Longitudinal energy into OU gas production in his cell.

To date, very few experimenters got it working in the resonant mode of operation, and of the ones that did hit the resonance reaction did not publish their results. So most of the researchers are running their Boyce cell using DC, just like Dr. Rhodes & Yull Brown designs, to makes lots of hydroxy gas (14 LPM) but not enough to run an engine for very long periods of time. 

Boyce used 1/8" plate spacing because when his cell goes into resonance the amount of gas generated was huge and actually pushes the water out of the cells. Reports of 30-50 LPM confirmed this. So in order to keep the water in the cell and not being thrown out a 1/8" cell spacings was used and the water level was set to 1/2 full. 

Researchers also found that it was difficult to keep and hold on to resonance partially due to the water being thrown out of the cells, as well as temperature and pressure changes .  These all changed the cells resonant frequency and you now needed to find the new resonant frequency manually as there were no feedback circuit loops to automatically track to the resonant frequency.

Very precise cell design, toroidal windings and special PWM was needed to make the Boyce cell to work. All this costs added up to close to $3500-4000.

The 101 cell box:
The Ed Holdgate cell box, machine precision made to 10,000th of an inch, for the exacting equal 1/8" spacing and to fit exactly the 101- 16ga 316L stainless steel plates, costs close to $1800.

The special silver coated solid copper wire wrapped equally spaced preciously on the special made 6" high frequency toroidal core from Mircometals had to be hand wrapped. Not many researchers are experts on hand winding toroidal cores.  Automated machine attempts to wind the cores have not worked to date. Bees wax was used to encase the primary and secondary windings.

The Pulse Width Modulation (PWM) boards can be bought off the shelf from "Hydrogen Garage".

The 101- 316L stainless steel plates had to be "conditioned" for weeks. (See the Free Energy D9 document). Using the more expensive 317L cuts the conditioning process down to a day.  The plates also have to be laser cut so as to be perfectly flat with no kerfed edges typical of sheared cuts. 

In other words, doing the latest and greatest series cell design by Boyce was an expensive, time consuming, and required precision beyond the typical researcher that is capable of performing in his garage work shop. And after all the above, the chances of success was unknown because of the multitude of these parts that all needed to work together, perfectly, to achieve the conversion of the OU toroid Longitudinal energy to the creation of the OU hydroxy gas.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

So now we have the Anton cell design that can run an engine.

Compared to building a series cell 101 plate design of the typical "Brown's Gas" electrolyzer or the more advanced Bob Boyce unit (see above), the Anton design is a VERY simple.    ;D

There looks to be only one critical design component, the 1 mm cell spacing.  Thats it!

It is so simple they show a video of assembling the whole unit in less than a day!  Cake walk city  :D

Spaß / Fun with a HHO Anton Drycell
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IBL_gfmj04

It looks scalable, both in the individual plate sizes as well as the number of plates you can stack. They used 21 plates (3 X 7 cell units) to create 6 LPM to run a 2.5 HP genset for 1000 watts output. Technically one could build a single 21 plate unit to save materials.  Or even go to 101 plates design to fuel larger engines. The sky is the limit   ;)

Why does it work?
No one knows at this time. Their HHO gas needs to be analyzed in a laboratory.  A mass spectrometer would really help. The engine exhaust should also be analyzed to see what is happening inside the combustion chamber.

One theory (see my posts above) is the cell spacing needs to be 1 mm to create this "special gas", Dr. Moray calls it "charged water clusters," tapping ZPE to then be able to run an engine.  When using the Boyce design in the DC mode, the 1/8" spacing (3.175 mm), is 3 X larger, and is actually not the right spacing for creating this "special gas".

Whole new industries could be built around HHO as a fuel.  Check out Roy MCalister's videos on running hydrogen in engines. Roy jokingly says that 10,000 millionaires could be created EACH WEEK from converting our cars and homes to running on HHO & hydrogen  ;)

American Hydrogen Association
http://www.clean-air.org/ (http://www.clean-air.org/)

Exciting times ahead :)

Regards, Mike R.

 
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: flavian on May 04, 2010, 06:52:13 AM
I used a simple boyce cell, built by me without any help from Ed Holgate or anyone because I'm from Europe. I used it without resonance so far and I believe OU might work with that also.

Anton cells use 900W in order to get 6 LPM wich translates to about 150W per LPM.

My Boyce cell uses 2000W in order to get 14LPM with translates to about 140W per LPM.

So the numbers are almost the same. I'm not sure the 3mm vs 1mm spacing between the plates is the issue. Anton had a 1000W generator with timing adjustments, mine was a 2000W generator without any modifications. But it worked, it just needed more gas.

Sure, a dry cell helps especially if you use it in your car because it is easier to build and install without problems. I'm not sure however that it produces better quality gas compared to other designs. In order to produce monoatomic hydrogen I believe resonance is still needed.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Sente on May 04, 2010, 07:08:56 AM
hallo


sorry for german,

mit Anton ist doch noch viel mehr möglich:

nicht immer an auto denken, anton kann viel mehr: Kondensator, Batterie, Brennstoffzelle, hho-zelle.
einfach mal weiter denken, anton ist fertig als baukasten und kann nach belieben umgebaut oder erweitert werden, desweiteren ist es einfacher ein stationären motor (z.b. Bhkw) mit konstanten drehzahlen mit gas zu betreiben als ein automotor mit wechselden drehzahlen.

und ich lese hier viel, sehe aber eher wenig, hier sind 23t  user im forum und anscheinend auch einige zellen, aber wie viel brenner oder andre spielereien sind zu sehen?  keine ahnung  10-20 ?  oder doch mehr, hier wird auch viel diskutiert und an elektronik geschraubt aber nicht viel mit HHO, GEEt,SPAD,G+P,A.V.E.C, ich sehe nicht viel, alle reden und suchen und wenn sies gefunden haben suchen sie was neues, leute baut was zusammen und redet nicht nur drüber, wenns 5 leute in europa und vielleicht 100 auf der welt machen wird das nichts, der wandel muss jetzt mal langsam eingeleitet werden.

wir in deutschland haben doch viel mehr probleme zu lösen als andre länder wo nicht nachgefragt wird ob das erlaubt ist.


mfg


sente
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: vrand on May 04, 2010, 08:15:42 AM
I used a simple boyce cell, built by me without any help from Ed Holgate or anyone because I'm from Europe. I used it without resonance so far and I believe OU might work with that also.

Anton cells use 900W in order to get 6 LPM wich translates to about 150W per LPM.

My Boyce cell uses 2000W in order to get 14LPM with translates to about 140W per LPM.

So the numbers are almost the same. I'm not sure the 3mm vs 1mm spacing between the plates is the issue. Anton had a 1000W generator with timing adjustments, mine was a 2000W generator without any modifications. But it worked, it just needed more gas.

Sure, a dry cell helps especially if you use it in your car because it is easier to build and install without problems. I'm not sure however that it produces better quality gas compared to other designs. In order to produce monoatomic hydrogen I believe resonance is still needed.

When running on HHO gas the timing typically needs to be at TDC. You can buy an electronic ignition timing control off the internet. Please keep us posted on your progress.

As more people build the Anton cells and the Boyce cells, scientists will then analyze the gases to determine where the extra energy is coming from for OU energy in powering an electric genset while its powering a load.

Regards, Mike 

Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: vrand on May 04, 2010, 09:06:20 AM
hallo


sorry for german,

mit Anton ist doch noch viel mehr möglich:

nicht immer an auto denken, anton kann viel mehr: Kondensator, Batterie, Brennstoffzelle, hho-zelle.
einfach mal weiter denken, anton ist fertig als baukasten und kann nach belieben umgebaut oder erweitert werden, desweiteren ist es einfacher ein stationären motor (z.b. Bhkw) mit konstanten drehzahlen mit gas zu betreiben als ein automotor mit wechselden drehzahlen.

und ich lese hier viel, sehe aber eher wenig, hier sind 23t  user im forum und anscheinend auch einige zellen, aber wie viel brenner oder andre spielereien sind zu sehen?  keine ahnung  10-20 ?  oder doch mehr, hier wird auch viel diskutiert und an elektronik geschraubt aber nicht viel mit HHO, GEEt,SPAD,G+P,A.V.E.C, ich sehe nicht viel, alle reden und suchen und wenn sies gefunden haben suchen sie was neues, leute baut was zusammen und redet nicht nur drüber, wenns 5 leute in europa und vielleicht 100 auf der welt machen wird das nichts, der wandel muss jetzt mal langsam eingeleitet werden.

wir in deutschland haben doch viel mehr probleme zu lösen als andre länder wo nicht nachgefragt wird ob das erlaubt ist.


mfg


sente

Hallo,
Planen Sie auf den Aufbau eines Anton Einheit?

Ja, man kann das Gas aus der Anton-Zelle für viele verschiedene Anwendungen neben der Betankung eines Motors verwendet werden.

Refards, Mike
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: kallstrom_74 on May 04, 2010, 11:27:17 PM
i really hope this is for real :) can anyone confirm? Then we (i) need a "build anton hho cell for dummies" and how to use it in cars..and in our homes
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Sente on May 05, 2010, 06:42:43 AM
hi

@vrand yes, the projekt is in work.

@kallstrom 74, yes it´s true, anton work´s great and you  and anyone can buy it, the assembling is easy and fast.



sorry,for my english,

auf der Ou.de seite, ist eine aktuelle preisliste mit staffellungen für foren nutzer, wenn diese stückzahlen erreicht werden sind die preise für menber auch nicht so teuer.

frage ?  wie hoch ist den in moment die tax auf inport ware in die staaten ?  in europa ist es ja kein problem , z.b nach england oder sons wo zu liefern.

und ich hoere immer preise sind zu hoch, Cellcat, Kema, EBN oder  auch alle andren zellen kosten das gleiche oder mehr und sind technisch nicht so hoch entwickelt.

Desweiteren moechte ich mal von den interessierten user´n wissen , wer ist den wirklich an ein anton und den einbau in die heizung oder im auto interessiert? das einbauen in auto´s ist in germany ausdrücklich verboten und kann folgen haben. der einbau in ein bestehendes heizungssystem in ausdrücklich verboten.

was wir in moment machen dürfen ist generatoren umzubauen,  und es an allen andren aufbauten zu probieren.

das anton team ist auch auf die weiterentwicklung und produktion von  noch mehr zubehör ausgerichtet, aus anton kann wie schon gesagt, auch eine brennstoffzelle, batterie(akku), kondensator, import ware in die staaten ?  in europa ist es ja kein problem , z.b nach england oder sons wo zu liefern.

und ich hoere immer preise sind zu hoch, Cellcat, Kema, EBN oder  auch alle andren zellen kosten das gleiche oder mehr und sind technisch nicht so hoch entwickelt.

Desweiteren moechte ich mal von den interessierten user´n wissen , wer ist den wirklich an ein anton und den einbau in die heizung oder im auto interessiert? das einbauen in auto´s ist in germany ausdrücklich verboten und kann folgen haben. der einbau in ein bestehendes heizungssystem in ausdrücklich verboten.

was wir in moment machen dürfen ist generatoren umzubauen,  und es an allen andren aufbauten zu probieren.

das anton team ist auch auf die weiterentwicklung und produktion von  noch mehr zubehör ausgerichtet, aus anton kann wie schon gesagt, auch eine brennstoffzelle, batterie(akku), kondensator, Ein-zell und auch eine brown´s gas oder eine zelle zum seperieren von oxigen und hydrogen umgebaut werden und das alles mit einem anton baukasten in verschiedenen  umbauten.
die idee dahinter: anton als HHo-zelle,  anton als batterie(liefert den start stron für anton), anton als brenstoffzelle(betrieben mit den gass aus der anton zelle(seperation o2 und h2) so ist anton universal einsetzbar und A kann mit vielleicht 3 antonbausetzen ein kreislauf schaffen.

der einbau in ein BHKW wer natürlich der beste Ansatz.

falls hier überhaupt jemand interesse hat ein BHKW selbst zubauen.
nicht alles in die ami 8v seufer karren verbauen, da kann bestimmt mit spad und Air vortex 5-20% gespart werden und das ohne HHo im auto.

mfg





sente

 u
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: markdansie on May 05, 2010, 07:40:29 AM
hello,
having seen, built, tested and whatever the cell is a good one but not dissimilar in efficiency of many other units you an build or purchase. The output of gas to power put in is similar to many cells. The design was originally referred to the Terro Cell although Bob had a similar one that preceded it. (I have been fortunate enough to have met Bob)
The trouble here is there in no overunity in the gas production. Its well within in laymans terms Faradays Law to what gas you can get out for power to put in.
As far as running a motor, many people have done this including Terro (lots of youtube video's) However here is where the maths comes in.
To run an ICE typically you need between 5 and 6 litres per minute per HP depending on the efficiency of the engine. There are many engines out there available commercially and you can check the figures your self. Here is where the problem is. Actually I will you do the math and show the calculation latter.
I am sure they can start the motor, run it for a while but they will never have it closed look continuous running. Especially if you take the battery out of the loop.
I encourage their work but nothing new here.
Mark
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: vrand on May 05, 2010, 09:22:54 AM
hello,
having seen, built, tested and whatever the cell is a good one but not dissimilar in efficiency of many other units you an build or purchase. The output of gas to power put in is similar to many cells. The design was originally referred to the Terro Cell although Bob had a similar one that preceded it. (I have been fortunate enough to have met Bob)
The trouble here is there in no overunity in the gas production. Its well within in laymans terms Faradays Law to what gas you can get out for power to put in.
As far as running a motor, many people have done this including Terro (lots of youtube video's) However here is where the maths comes in.
To run an ICE typically you need between 5 and 6 litres per minute per HP depending on the efficiency of the engine. There are many engines out there available commercially and you can check the figures your self. Here is where the problem is. Actually I will you do the math and show the calculation latter.
I am sure they can start the motor, run it for a while but they will never have it closed look continuous running. Especially if you take the battery out of the loop.
I encourage their work but nothing new here.
Mark

Hi,
The Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cells is due to Power Out > Power In:

- The 3 Anton cells produce produced 6 LPM, that fuels the 2.5 HP engine, while the engines 1000 watt electrical generator is powering the cells AND powering loads (see the videos on the home page).
- They have run the engine for hours being fueled just by the cells, while powering the cells, and using the exhaust heat to heat their office.
- They ran the loads test for only 40 sec. due to the engine rpm increasing, thus increasing the electrical gnerators voltage,  that would then damage the Anton cells power supply it was powering.


They are currently working to stabilize the engine RPM so it can run the loads for longer periods of time.

To date neither the Tero cell nor the Boyce 101 cell can self-run an engine on water and power a load that I am aware of.  Please show us a video, maybe I missed it.

The one key design difference between the Tero and Boyce cell, compared to the Anto cell, is the 1 mm plate spacing used on the Anton design.  Dr. Moray theories that at it is the < 1 mm spacing that produces more of the "charged water clusters" that taps into the ZPE for the extra energy to fuel engines (see my above posts).

Of course what is also needed is for other researchers to reproduce this experiment to verify the results.

Regards, Mike
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: vrand on May 05, 2010, 09:41:04 AM
hi

@vrand yes, the projekt is in work.


Hi sente,
Please keep us posted on your Anton project!

Yes, the Anton group has a discount for OU Forums members:
Google Translate:
http://www.overunity.de/index.php?topic=618 (http://www.overunity.de/index.php?topic=618)

For USA or overseas researchers, they also offer to sell just the special 1 mm Viton spacer gasket set they have stamped out for their standard plate size, as the shipping costs for the stainless steel would be very expensive to ship. Researchers can now then have their SS plates made in-country and just add the spacers and bolted end plates to have their own Anton cell unit!

Regards, Mike R.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Cloxxki on May 05, 2010, 10:33:06 AM
So, to make these accessible for lesser technical people like me.
Is the awazing thing about the Anton cell that, say, 6 litres per minute of it's out put is able to run an engine, AND take out serious Wattage, beyond what is to be expected from a 6 litre a minute HHO supply? Please correct me when wrong.
Then, my logic would expect the output gas to be "different". If indeed so, this smells like a holy grail.

Any other experimenters on the forum running engines on similar HHO cells with minimal plate gaps?

If someone has a well tuned HHO engine, please send it over to the German crew to get more reliability! :-)
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Omnibus on May 05, 2010, 02:27:44 PM
Undoubtedly, third party reproduction of the claims that the system in question is self-sustaining would be the best way to go. However, what would justify the expense if one is to buy the device from the claimants, with the intention to be such third party examiner, and then it turns out that it's a no go in terms of OU? Don't get me wrong, isn't that the aim of every scammer in the world, to wet the appetite of the wide-eyed enthusiasts, take the money and run. I feel intuitively that that may not be the case here but how do we erase any trace of doubt?
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: mscoffman on May 05, 2010, 05:41:42 PM
Undoubtedly, third party reproduction of the claims that the system in question is self-sustaining would be the best way to go. However, what would justify the expense if one is to buy the device from the claimants, with the intention to be such third party examiner, and then it turns out that it's a no go in terms of OU? Don't get me wrong, isn't that the aim
of every scammer in the world, to wet the appetite of the wide-eyed enthusiasts, take the money and run. I feel intuitively that that may
not be the case here but how do we erase any trace of doubt?

@Omnibus

Exactly;

Assuming the "heating value" of the gas from different electrolyser
is the same and vrand forces us to confront the possibility that they
may not be. The obvious way to test these things is by having two
units optimised for the same power levels be operating side by side
so that the amount of gas evolving could be compared. For example
by operating the same capacity electrolyser unit strictly on DC current
if injected AC is supposed to increase output. Have the other unit
be injected with an AC signal modulated in a way that doesn't increase
DC current but have evolved gas output increased. The amount of
gas is sensitive to room temperature and absolute pressure which
makes the side by side comparison necessary.

Electrolytic deposition was once used in electric meters so it must
be very accurate.

The other thing is to do is what these Anton folks have done so far...
incrementally show they can make their system approach self
running because it is almost as easy as faking it.

You know if you are injecting hydrogen into your auto engine,for
fuel economy then overunity may not be such a concern because
the mixed fuel solution probably works best. If you want to run your
ICE engine on water plasma the same probably holds true.

But if you are trying to build an overunity space heater, a self running
ICE engine generator or a self running fuel cell power unit then overunity
volume hydrogen is everything. A non-overunity system won't even show
you correct systems behavior. Very few people probably want to build
one of these systems for the feeling of technical achievement alone.

Can they make their system approach overuity?...
I guess only time will tell.

:S:MarkSCoffman
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Sente on May 05, 2010, 10:53:52 PM
hi


hier wird immer von overunity gesprochen,

wollen wir doch garnicht , nie die A von gewesen.!

der overunity effekt ist ganz ein anderer, ich brauch kein öl oder gas mehr um ein kleinmotor zubetreiben.
das ist overunity ;D      weg von öl und gas in kleinen Bhkw, das ganze von mir aus mit wind oder solar energie unterstützt.

wärme und strom zuhause selber erzeugen, das ist der erste weg, die WFC´s technologie kommt dann automatisch ans licht.

weg von öl,   ich mein, ist ja nicht meine küste auf die ein riesen ölteppich zutreibt und die küsten sind nicht alaska, wo hunderte irre umweltschützer versuchen monate lang steine mit zahnbürsten zu reinigen. das sind sümpfe! das ist nicht mal eben mit bürste reinigen.


mfg


sente

 

p.s.
G.P. : suchen die hier nur ou. und merken nicht was man jezt schon machen kann ? 
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Mark69 on May 06, 2010, 12:46:55 AM
Keep up the great work guys!

I am interested in this to be able to run your home gas furnace.  At least for me, if I could get a cell to do this, it could save me $1500 a year easy.  Or getting a generator to run and I could use electric heat and generate electricity to sell back to the electric company would be awesome as well.
Mark

An idea for you guys would be to have a collection tank before the input of the engine with a pressure switch.  Once pressure builds up in the tank, it shuts the electricity to the Anton cell, if the engine is using less the the cells are producing.  You can use the electricity for something else.

P.S.  What is the cost of those gaskets you mentioned?  Do you have instructions on conditioning the plates and what about all the fittings and lines?
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Thaelin on May 06, 2010, 06:01:01 AM
    Just remember that any motor you decide on will have to be
converted if used over a long period of time. You will be making
water as a bi-product and it likes to rust metal. Aluminum block
with a chrome sleeve, stellite valves, stainless exhaust and muffler.
   I am with the idea of the commercial Sterling, just makes sense to me.

thay
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Sente on May 06, 2010, 06:32:15 AM
hi


ein paar daten zum motor,

den ansatz mit rost im motor:

der ansatz ist reine theorie und man liest sofort daraus das der herr noch kein motor umgebaut hat und einiges einfach nicht weis.

den ansatz rost hat saab mal vor 20j vorgeschoben um die wasser einspritzung vom markt zunehmen,  dort sind nach 200t km  leichte rostablagerungen an den kobenringen entdeckt worden, mehr nicht das macht den motor soweit nicht viel, die kolbenringe können aus ersatz material hergestellt werden.

und um die umweltbegingungen im zylinder nachzu ahmen, ein einfacher versuch:  man erwärme seine Küchen ofen platte e-herd auf stufe x  und kippe ein tropfen wasser auf die platte, der tanzt auf der platte rum und die platte rostet bestimmt nicht.

des weiteren haben hersteller jahrzehnte erfahrung mit verdampfer technik ,die ist uralt bis 1970 gebaut.  und die motoren sind auch nicht weggerostet ,das waren diesel/wasser verdampfer (siehe Lanz, SHW, Deutz, Güldner) den rest abgas aus edelstahl zu fertigen ist selbstverständlich.

dem motor sollte es aber nicht´s ausmachen, ich mache mir mehr sorgen um die kolben, in deutschland ist beobachtet worden, langzeit betrieb und bemontage des motor´s , das mit längeren laufzeiten eines 2 zylinder 4takt motor die alu- kolben löcher aufgewiesen haben, die verbrennungstempertur kann so hoch sein das löcher in den kolben gebrannt werden. der gleiche effekt wie bei NOS(lachgas) zu viel und die kolben brennen weg.
das beruht auf die oktan zahl erhöhung des gemisches benzin oder diesel, es wird von ca. +25 oktan ausgegangen, das heit das gemisch ist zündfähiger, durch das schnelle und gleichemäßigeren durchzünden  im zylinder, dadurch bessere verbrennung mehr leistung, weniger treibstoff, weniger unverbranter treibstoff wird mit des abgasen abgeführt.

mfg


sente


p.s.
halte das forum mal ein bisschen auf dem laufenden was anton so macht.
und ja mit anton kann ein haus geheizt werden, das ist mit andren zellen schon 28 jahre alt in deutschland und wird gemacht und funktioniert prima.
ich selber werde anton in verschieden applikationen einbauen und schauen was wir alles machen können.
und wer doch prima heizen und co mit destillierten wasser und KOH für  in moment 40 cent der liter +bisschen  KOH.

Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: vrand on May 06, 2010, 07:44:21 AM
p.s.
consider this forum a little bit of time on the current anton what makes Sun
and yes with Anton can be a heated house, which is years old, with others already 28 cells in Germany and is made and works fine.
I am getting anton install in various applications and see what we can do everything.
and who but great heat and co with distilled water and KOH for 40 cents moment in the liter KOH + bit.

Hi Sente,

Jemand hat 28 Zellen, Anton?
Was ist die Gasförderung in LPM?
Was tun sie gebrauchen? Einschalten eines Motors? Engine Größe?
Keine Videos im Internet?

Wie viele Zellen Anton bekommen Sie?
Werden Sie es für die Betankung eines Motors?

Regards, Mike R.
Title: alternate sources for HHO generators, Hydrogen furnaces
Post by: ZathEros on May 06, 2010, 07:09:59 PM
Anton is not the first to create this hardware. The link below is for a company in Tennesee that makes kits. Probably the best I have seen for the money. Smaller size, smaller output- just gang them together to get the flow you need. He also has several videos on youtube.

http://hhodrycells.com/diy_drycell.htm

Also search the torrent sites for " HHO browns gas hydrogen furnace plans"  there is a torrent that has a crude plan for a home heater claimed to heat 1,500 sq ft on ~ 200 watts of power.

Z
Title: Re: alternate sources for HHO generators, Hydrogen furnaces
Post by: haithar on May 06, 2010, 07:14:21 PM
edit: nevermind
Title: Re: alternate sources for HHO generators, Hydrogen furnaces
Post by: sushimoto on May 06, 2010, 07:29:36 PM
Anton is not the first to create this hardware. The link below is for a company in Tennesee that makes kits. Probably the best I have seen for the money. Smaller size, smaller output- just gang them together to get the flow you need. He also has several videos on youtube.

http://hhodrycells.com/diy_drycell.htm

Also search the torrent sites for " HHO browns gas hydrogen furnace plans"  there is a torrent that has a crude plan for a home heater claimed to heat 1,500 sq ft on ~ 200 watts of power.

Z

..And where are their videos showing a motor running
or at least some brazing torch?

Title: Hydrogen furnace plans
Post by: ZathEros on May 06, 2010, 07:38:30 PM
The torrent doesn't appear to work so I found my copy and uploaded it to the files section under the name HHO browns gas hydrogen furnace.
Title: Re: alternate sources for HHO generators, Hydrogen furnaces
Post by: vrand on May 06, 2010, 07:42:37 PM
..And where are their videos showing a motor running
or at least some brazing torch?

Yes, exactly. Show a video for a motor running & powering the cell in a closed loop   ;)

Title: Re: alternate sources for HHO generators, Hydrogen furnaces
Post by: ZathEros on May 06, 2010, 07:52:16 PM
..And where are their videos showing a motor running
or at least some brazing torch?

here is a video of their smaller cells producing hho gas and a welding torch burning.  2 small cells running 23 amps producing 3.5 Liters a minute, not bad-

http://www.youtube.com/user/jermy342#p/u/11/VHpEHNtTcyc

There is no video of them running a motor I am just posting the link for an alternative to anton  for the USA folks. Much less expensive.
follow the other youtube links for additional comparisons.
Z
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: mscoffman on May 07, 2010, 08:15:28 PM
I seem to be doing this a lot.
Reposting something that Paul-R posted in another thread.

This link is on the Bob Boyce Electrolyser;

"I am not sure that I am right here, but it may be that this is what is
meant:"     http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/D9.pdf

There are quite a few pictures and diagrams that help explain what
goes into making any working electrolyser cell. The different two
electrolytes ect.

It also gives hope for separating drive electronics and using
the power supply with any appropriately sized cell hardware.

I happen to think that there are more then one valid overunity energy
source and some folk want to tie them together to create "secrets".
For example Bedini combines static electricity generation and CF inside
acid/lead storage batteries, the way Boyce combines CF in electrolyser
cells with magnetic overunity in toroidal pulse driver electronics to create
sufficient overunity for his self-running racing boats. So, I assume that
Anton electrolyser hardware could be combined with the appropriate
overunity driver to produce more then overunity energy then is being
shown. I don't like these secrets because they deny others the
understanding about what is going on while they make constructing
these things a high technical chore. I don't mind paying for twenty
of these things to heat my home but if they are not overunity I might
as well be using resistance heating.

By the way I want to say that I appreciate other posters for their
comments and the links provided.

:S:MarkSCoffman
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Rapadura on May 08, 2010, 04:07:45 PM
Two weeks later....

When will we see another 40 seconds video?   :-\
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: markdansie on May 08, 2010, 11:56:55 PM
There are at last count dozens of companies proucing HHO cells. Some have ben pperating for near 2 years producing commecial welders, and stoves. Many smaller backyard enterproses also exist some producing good products other junk.
There are also some large companies proucing HHO cells fro the trucking industry some with reasonable results.
What i have seen here is a reasonably proced cell that is about as efficient as many others.
But to claim it is efficient enought to self run an ICE is both false and misleading and seems to be to promote a few sales. You run and ICE you would at least need 5 times whatthey have now and where is the evidence??????. I amhappy to sen some of my team mebers to report back on any demonstration they care to do as a third party collaberation. I have been testing and building these devices for years along with many thousands of others.
So when I ead they have had it run for hours I see an untruth if it cant be substaniated.
One tell tale sign...in the 40 second run ...where did they get the gas to start it????? Was a bateery involved.
I have seen a 300 HP V* run on HHO but after a few minuts the battery went flat. So if it is truly self running, please have the demonstrate it by disconecting the battery after it has started.
The other problem I have they use a couple of lights and drills and claim look 1000 watts. Rubbish
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: vrand on May 09, 2010, 07:13:37 AM
There are at last count dozens of companies proucing HHO cells. Some have ben pperating for near 2 years producing commecial welders, and stoves. Many smaller backyard enterproses also exist some producing good products other junk.
There are also some large companies proucing HHO cells fro the trucking industry some with reasonable results.
What i have seen here is a reasonably proced cell that is about as efficient as many others.
But to claim it is efficient enought to self run an ICE is both false and misleading and seems to be to promote a few sales. You run and ICE you would at least need 5 times whatthey have now and where is the evidence??????. I amhappy to sen some of my team mebers to report back on any demonstration they care to do as a third party collaberation. I have been testing and building these devices for years along with many thousands of others.
So when I ead they have had it run for hours I see an untruth if it cant be substaniated.
One tell tale sign...in the 40 second run ...where did they get the gas to start it????? Was a bateery involved.
I have seen a 300 HP V* run on HHO but after a few minuts the battery went flat. So if it is truly self running, please have the demonstrate it by disconecting the battery after it has started.
The other problem I have they use a couple of lights and drills and claim look 1000 watts. Rubbish

The videos are proof that something very unusual and exciting happening with the Anton Cell.

What we know:
- Not OU gas production at 2.5 Wh/L
- Is OU in HHO Gas energy content.

Theories on Anton HHO Gas OU Energy:
- Orthohydrogen has greater energy than Parahydrogen.
- The Anton gas maybe has higher percentage of Orthohydrogen.
- Dr. Moray King's theory of the third gas he calls "Charged water clusters" taps into ZPE.
- Brown's Gas researcher calls this third gas "Electrified water" and can fuel an engine.


More reproductions is needed to verify the Anton cell's OU HHO gas output can power other engines.

This is the first time, on video, of a selfrunning HHO cell powering an engine with extra power for loads.

We all look forward to seeing more on this exciting OU HHO discovery.  :)

Regards, Mike R.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: markdansie on May 10, 2010, 03:45:26 PM
Hi Mike

there was nothing on the video to suggest it was self running. I think you might find tht the unit to power up the gas to start withwas using a battery or other external power source. There have been many video's made of hho cells running small engines (even arge ones) ovr the years and many dozens of people who have tried it. I ook forward to be made a fool of one day but at this stage no cigar. Do you think they would bject to one of my collegues in Europe dropping by and having a look as an independent hid pary?. if so let me know.
mark
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: sushimoto on May 10, 2010, 06:32:35 PM
Why should anbody receive FreeEnergy-tourists
instead of doing serious research?

And where in the world of Youtubby
was a small hho-engine driving a load?
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Bentoptics on May 11, 2010, 08:31:19 AM
@sushimoto
"And where in the world of Youtubby
was a small hho-engine driving a load?"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJLgv20LEF8

250 watt maybe 500 watt light from a barely running generator all on 14 l min.

Well you did ask.

BentOptics
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: sushimoto on May 11, 2010, 12:56:34 PM
Hi Bentoptics,

yes, i've asked and thanks for the answer.

14l/min is much to much gas for the small engine.
It simply cannot "breath" that amount to the regular inlet
without any pressure and an appropriate regulation.
The Anton-ICE injects the gas deeply into the head,
directly to the valve.
That is one of the main-differencies to the (few)
other experimentators with MoGens on YouTubby.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: haithar on May 11, 2010, 01:45:04 PM

- Is OU in HHO Gas energy content.

Source pls, would like to read the paper :)

Here's what we really know:
- Engine runs on electrolysed water (H2 and O2)
- The engine keeps on running 40 seconds after the outside power was switched off

Nothing more. It's also only a claim to say that 2.5Wh/l of split water is not overunity, because the material is important in the electrolysis process, only the needed charge is independant of material (although i know this is not "overunity", but i just wished people would be more cautious with their statements)
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: vrand on May 12, 2010, 02:43:23 AM
Source pls, would like to read the paper :)

Here's what we really know:
- Engine runs on electrolysed water (H2 and O2)
- The engine keeps on running 40 seconds after the outside power was switched off

Nothing more. It's also only a claim to say that 2.5Wh/l of split water is not overunity, because the material is important in the electrolysis process, only the needed charge is independant of material (although i know this is not "overunity", but i just wished people would be more cautious with their statements)

That video was just a proof of concept that they could also power loads, while powering the HHO cell.

They stated that they also ran the genset for hours, without additional loads, but only powering the Anton cells, and using the heat of the exhaust to heat their office.

Heating an office using only water is OU in my book   ;D
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: markdansie on May 12, 2010, 02:58:06 AM
The 40 seconds could be using up the gases already in the system combined with some new gas generated until the combined amounts are exhausted.
I do like the direct injection in the head that could help with some efficency and make better use of fractional hydrogen events (i there are some)
2.5 watts per litre is one of the better ons but as explained not overunity. many other cells can get that with most commercial ones at around 2.8 to 3 watt per litre.
With the load tests its better to actually have the loads measured.
Kind Regards
Mark
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: haithar on May 12, 2010, 03:40:01 PM
They stated that they also ran the genset for hours, without additional loads, but only powering the Anton cells, and using the heat of the exhaust to heat their office.
Yes if that's correct it changes the situation of course. I didn't read this anywhere, do you have the quote please?  :)
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: markdansie on May 13, 2010, 12:24:35 AM
[A author=haithar link=topic=9099.msg241178#msg241178 date=1273671601]
Yes if that's correct it changes the situation of course. I didn't read this anywhere, do you have the quote please?  :)
[/quote]
I agree fully that I have not read this anywhere and if they can demonstrate that then its a whole new ballgame. As previously metioned their cell is not unlike many others that have been built (including the plate gaps) so if there is anybreak through it is how they did the hydrogen into the engine.
A 40 second test is not long enough. I have seen a huge v8 pickup truck run on HHO (idling) until the battery went flat (which didn't take long) i have also seen engines run up to a minute or more just n the gas stored in the system combined with the new gas being generated.
I am happy to be open minded about this and if they do as claimed to provide engineers to help verify the tests. Without third party validation all they have is a statement.
Kind Regard
Mark
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Alchemist on May 18, 2010, 04:52:41 PM
What kind of electronics does this Anton cell configuration require. I understand theres no need for a toroidal transformer as in Boyce's design, is that correct?
Do you still need a PWM circuit?
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: markdansie on May 18, 2010, 05:16:08 PM
No,
its is just a standard dry cell sometimes called a aterro Cell. Bob boyce actually created this type of cell originally.
The efficency of this cell is about the same of the other dry cells out there.
There are many instructions how to build them on the net, they are really easy and I have built a few.
The plate spacing can make a bit of difference but not a lot. The most important thing is surface area and use 316 stainless if you have it.
You can buy good cells like this quite cheap already built on the NEt at places like March Labs.
Hope that helps
Mark
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: sushimoto on May 18, 2010, 05:21:06 PM
What kind of electronics does this Anton cell configuration require. I understand theres no need for a toroidal transformer as in Boyce's design, is that correct?
Do you still need a PWM circuit?

Currently, they dont use any special electronics execpt of half-way rectified AC.
Based on the "narrow-gap" principle, like boyce and others used, is
enhancing that with some kind of bedini/Boyce/Meyer/scalar back-emf
transformator the next logical step.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Alchemist on May 18, 2010, 05:49:28 PM
and does that not compromise the amount of gas produced? i mean why did bob go through the trouble of introducing electronics and a toroid, if had already built one like that originally, if there was no advantage in doing so?
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: mscoffman on May 18, 2010, 07:12:08 PM
and does that not compromise the amount of gas produced? i mean why did bob go through the trouble of introducing electronics and a toroid, if had already built one like that originally, if there was no advantage in doing so?

Anton is selling only the electrolyser cells right now...not the entire
system. So they only *have to* show unity electrolysis gain
to be guilty of selling quality hardware. This is the correct approach,
to now let those who claim the "overunity lies in the power supply" to
prove that, and that could easily be done using the Anton cells as
electrolyser. Unless tubular or carbon electrode electrolyser cells are
a requirement?

Bob's introduction of the toroid power supply sure made the device much
harder to technologically produce and introduces much uncertainty into
where the overunity energy actually came from...It may have simply
produced more hydrogen that way.

@All

I don't understand why the electrolyser or engine would be more efficient
when they are operating at idle. If the engine is burning water vapor or
engine oil that might explain the situation.

:MarkSCoffman
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: sushimoto on May 18, 2010, 07:38:03 PM
Of course, there is an advantage in feeding back some of the
galvanic/capacitive "features" of that kind of stacks and that
should be investigated further in order to make such systems even more efficient.
Most of the "products" selled are just a try to mimic LCR resonances which
is not as easy as announced. Maybe Boyce had trouble to release something
stable in series for a bigger market? Sometimes Investors are pushing too hard. ;)

As for my understanding the "anton" project and all the others
are going towards sustainability and alternatives to avoid the kind of
"free-energy" you are seeing in the gulf of mexico right now.

"Give HHO 100Years and multi-billions$ of funding like fossils have had
and it will not just be another method of destroying our planet."

i do see that most of the visitors here are looking for "free-(for-me)-energy" in short-terms,
but for my opinion nothing is more "worth" to take care about the environment and to
stop burning stinky stuff. There must be thousands of "Drycells" and such in the states,
but where is the progress in research?
There are a very few real experimenters which are not just looking
for a cheap way to save gasoline on their "big-block-trucks".

Admirable people like "jdmforyou" are really growing with their experience and knowledge.
Regardless, if its "free-energy" or not.
Its an alternative.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Alchemist on May 18, 2010, 08:04:37 PM
ok, so we're back to how it was when it all started... where the "breakthrough" then?
am i missing something? isnt this just the cell as basic as it gets?
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: froarty on May 18, 2010, 09:20:25 PM
I think we may be observing the same sort of fractional hydrogen claimed by Mills at Black Light  Power, George Miley and Arata. all essentially "shrunken hydrogen" that releases anomalous amounts of energy. This may be most similar to those theories of bubble fusion  based on Casimir effect but instead of the liquid electrolyte representing the shielding enclosure here small conductive pockets of gas enclose atomic hydrogen.
As the "containment cloud" is compressed by the piston the Casimir force increases at the inverse of the distance between the sides of the containment cloud cubed. This is where Mills coined the phrase hydrino but Miley uses dense deuterium and others call it fractional hydrogen. It is still controversial whether the orbitals are sub ground state or
more likely a relativistic perspective where these atoms translate to a different inertial frame. There are even researchers directly investigationg something called SPICE which is almost exactly what the Anton cell is claiming to have accomplished. I don't know the theory behind SPICE it is being researched by a company called CHAVRA and they are not publishing much beyond their goals at this point.

My best guess at what is occuring here is that they are forming fractional hydrogen in the cylinder. nano pockets of nonconductive gas are enveloped by the HHO gas injected into the cylinder forming a gaseous equivalent of a bubble similar to bubble fusion. The conductive meniscui of the bubles exert a Casimir force on any atoms trapped in the nano pocket. As the piston compresses the gas cloud and bubbles the Casimir force sky rockets inverse to the width of the pocket cubed. There are numerous theories regarding how these fractional atoms can deliver free energy based
on their shrunken orbitals. My pet theory is the translation will be equal in both directions for an atom but if a a molecule forms from translated atoms it will resist translating between inertial frames and essentially oscillate between H1 and H2 courtesy of Casimir force which will break the molecule and restore the atoms to monatomic levels as the compression changes the value of the force.

The piston provides the abrupt changes in Casimir force to disassociate the molecules while nature requires they try to form molecules and fall to a lower energy state.
This compares to The heat Black Light Power pumps into their reactor of Rayney nickel except the resulting runaway heat in this case has a couple built in safety
mechanisms compared to Rayney nickel, for one the cavities are transitory so
there is no permanent cavity to destroy, and, two the piston allows the plasma
and combustible portion of gas to expand and cool. My conclusion is that the Anton
cell isn't as important as the feed method to their generator.

http://www.byzipp.com/animaTime.htm
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: vrand on May 18, 2010, 09:21:17 PM
Anton is selling only the electrolyser cells right now...not the entire
system. So they only *have to* show unity electrolysis gain
to be guilty of selling quality hardware. This is the correct approach,
to now let those who claim the "overunity lies in the power supply" to
prove that, and that could easily be done using the Anton cells as
electrolyser. Unless tubular or carbon electrode electrolyser cells are
a requirement?

The Anton cell looks to be overunity (OU) in the HHO gas Quality and not the gas Quantity produced.

Confirmation by other researchers is needed to verify this energy breakthrough.

Quote
Bob's introduction of the toroid power supply sure made the device much
harder to technologically produce and introduces much uncertainty into
where the overunity energy actually came from...It may have simply
produced more hydrogen that way.

Bob Boyce's 101 plate series cell design was used to convert his special OU toroid energy output to create OU HHO gas at resonance.  To date no researcher has published or shown a video of a Boyce cell operating at resonance.

Some researchers tried using a Boyce 101 plate design, in non-resonace mode at 15-17 LPM, to fuel a genset while powering a load and the cell unit, without sucess.

Quote
@All

I don't understand why the electrolyser or engine would be more efficient
when they are operating at idle. If the engine is burning water vapor or
engine oil that might explain the situation.

:MarkSCoffman

Regards, Mike R.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: vrand on May 18, 2010, 09:43:59 PM
Quote from: froarty link=topic=9099.msg241728#msg241728 A=1274210425
I think we may be observing the same sort of fractional hydrogen claimed by Mills at Black Light  Power, George Miley and Arata. all essentially "shrunken hydrogen" that releases anomalous amounts of energy. This may be most similar to those theories of bubble fusion  based on Casimir effect but instead of the liquid electrolyte representing the shielding enclosure here small conductive pockets of gas enclose atomic hydrogen.
As the "containment cloud" is compressed by the piston the Casimir force increases at the inverse of the distance between the sides of the containment cloud cubed. This is where Mills coined the phrase hydrino but Miley uses dense deuterium and others call it fractional hydrogen. It is still controversial whether the orbitals are sub ground state or
more likely a relativistic perspective where these atoms translate to a different inertial frame. There are even researchers directly investigationg something called SPICE which is almost exactly what the Anton cell is claiming to have accomplished. I don't know the theory behind SPICE it is being researched by a company called CHAVRA and they are not publishing much beyond their goals at this point.

My best guess at what is occuring here is that they are forming fractional hydrogen in the cylinder. nano pockets of nonconductive gas are enveloped by the HHO gas injected into the cylinder forming a gaseous equivalent of a bubble similar to bubble fusion. The conductive meniscui of the bubles exert a Casimir force on any atoms trapped in the nano pocket. As the piston compresses the gas cloud and bubbles the Casimir force sky rockets inverse to the width of the pocket cubed. There are numerous theories regarding how these fractional atoms can deliver free energy based
on their shrunken orbitals. My pet theory is the translation will be equal in both directions for an atom but if a a molecule forms from translated atoms it will resist translating between inertial frames and essentially oscillate between H1 and H2 courtesy of Casimir force which will break the molecule and restore the atoms to monatomic levels as the compression changes the value of the force.

The piston provides the abrupt changes in Casimir force to disassociate the molecules while nature requires they try to form molecules and fall to a lower energy state.
This compares to The heat Black Light Power pumps into their reactor of Rayney nickel except the resulting runaway heat in this case has a couple built in safety
mechanisms compared to Rayney nickel, for one the cavities are transitory so
there is no permanent cavity to destroy, and, two the piston allows the plasma
and combustible portion of gas to expand and cool. My conclusion is that the Anton
cell isn't as important as the feed method to their generator.

http://www.byzipp.com/animaTime.htm

A very interesting theory, thank you!

So the engine piston compression is part of the requirement in the overunity energy output of the Anton cell HHO gases when used with the genset.  Interesting  :)

Regards, Mike R.

Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: markdansie on May 19, 2010, 12:31:19 AM
@Mike R
you talk with som authority and some of yur ideas are interesting.
When you quote Bob Boyce..I am wondering if you ever met him/ I have and he was kind enough to let me stay for a night. He is a wonderful man.
I wonder why you suggest that the Anton cell is OU when other constructed exactly the same are not? How can you come to this conclusion. They have a good cell based on sommething that bob designed many years ago.
Mark
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: vrand on May 19, 2010, 01:23:36 AM
[author=markdansie link=topic=9099.msg241760#msg241760 date=1274221879]
@Mike R
you talk with som authority and some of yur ideas are interesting.
When you quote Bob Boyce..I am wondering if you ever met him/ I have and he was kind enough to let me stay for a night. He is a wonderful man.
I wonder why you suggest that the Anton cell is OU when other constructed exactly the same are not? How can you come to this conclusion. They have a good cell based on sommething that bob designed many years ago.
Mark
[/quote]

Yes, I had the privilege to meet my dear friend and colleague Bob Boyce, known him for many years, and helped fund his hydroxy research.  He is a wonderful brilliant man and a genius when it comes to hydroxy research.

Regards, Mike R.


Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on May 19, 2010, 01:28:47 AM

Has anyone ever considered operating 3 of these cells under pressure in an alternating fashion...with the pressurized restricted flow being driven into the engine ?

It seems to me that would greatly reduce consumption power in...however, I could be wrong - to quote another member who shall remain namelesss.

Regards...

Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: markdansie on May 19, 2010, 02:01:08 AM
Thanks Mike,
I agree with your comments on Bob, he is one of the smartest and most decent people I met. I did witness why I was there a unit that was doing better than Faradays. he was of great help with the work I was doing at the time.
I do not think the cell that is being discussed here is much different than other I have built and seen but  am interested in wha they have done with the genset with the controls and direct injection. I was never able to get an engin to self run as the power to make the gas always exceeded the power was needed to run the engine generator. If they have found a way of utilising the gas so the genset can take full advantage of the gas then there might be something there.
It would be usefull if they coul demonstrate it running for a few minuts and with the batteries disconected.
Mark
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: vrand on May 19, 2010, 03:04:24 AM
Thanks Mike,
I agree with your comments on Bob, he is one of the smartest and most decent people I met. I did witness why I was there a unit that was doing better than Faradays. he was of great help with the work I was doing at the time.
I do not think the cell that is being discussed here is much different than other I have built and seen but  am interested in wha they have done with the genset with the controls and direct injection. I was never able to get an engin to self run as the power to make the gas always exceeded the power was needed to run the engine generator. If they have found a way of utilising the gas so the genset can take full advantage of the gas then there might be something there.
It would be usefull if they coul demonstrate it running for a few minuts and with the batteries disconected.
Mark

Thanks Mark,
Yes, over on the German OU site there is a lot more activity on the Anton Cell.  Since the Anton Cell is made in Germany it is cheap to ship locally and the costs are low.  Also there is a discount if you mention you are a OU member, thanks guys  ;D

Some researchers are already getting the parts to replicate the 1000 watts genset experiment. 

Check out one Anton cell replicator, Sente's thread, by using Google language tools. The translation is good both ways at 80-95% conversion.
http://www.overunity.de/index.php?topic=627.0  (http://www.overunity.de/index.php?topic=627.0)

The costs to ship a completed to USA is prohibitive, but you can order the gaskets and all parts besides the stainless steel plates. Then all you would need is to make the plates locally.

Best regards, Mike R.
   
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: sushimoto on May 19, 2010, 12:50:22 PM
Hi,
maybe its not clear outside of the german ou community.
The ANTON-project was born withe the idea, that a group of researchers
doing research on a common, comparable hardware basis.
Since there were no experimental-cell available,
they created their own cell based on previous practical experiences.

For the outside, its not clear on the first sight,
that the anton-shop.com -site was just an approach
to simplify the distribution within the group.
The "nrg-company GmbH" was founded in the meaning of the name;
Building a company in order to have a legal firm for all activities
and to make the hobby the profession.

unfortunately, my english is nood good enough to describe the whole story.
But after a year of work on this project, its due to consolidate and describe
it in some article.

best,
sushi
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: vrand on May 19, 2010, 04:32:38 PM
Hi,
maybe its not clear outside of the german ou community.
The ANTON-project was born withe the idea, that a group of researchers
doing research on a common, comparable hardware basis.
Since there were no experimental-cell available,
they created their own cell based on previous practical experiences.

For the outside, its not clear on the first sight,
that the anton-shop.com -site was just an approach
to simplify the distribution within the group.
The "nrg-company GmbH" was founded in the meaning of the name;
Building a company in order to have a legal firm for all activities
and to make the hobby the profession.

unfortunately, my english is nood good enough to describe the whole story.
But after a year of work on this project, its due to consolidate and describe
it in some article.

best,
sushi

Hi Sushi,

Do you plan on publishing the complete Anton Cell design, like Bob Boyce did with his designs?

To let researchers worldwide build their own Anton cells?

Shipping from Germany is very expensive. Maybe you can sell the gasket spacers to researchers worldwide?

Maybe publish the Anton cell design in Patrick Kelly's "A Practical Guide to Free Energy Devices."  Part 9 has the electrolysers designs.

http://pesn.com/2007/09/29/9500450_BobBoyce_Electrolizer_Plans/d9.pdf (http://pesn.com/2007/09/29/9500450_BobBoyce_Electrolizer_Plans/d9.pdf)

Keep up the good work!   :)

Regards, Mike R.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: kallstrom_74 on May 21, 2010, 08:39:09 PM
has anyone reproduced this? and can we use this in our everyday siuationes? in the car or making heat or make eletricity?
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: markdansie on May 22, 2010, 06:39:43 AM
@Mike
I had a look at the German site.....thanks for the link.
It is what we call a dry cell or Terro cell. I have built many so have my friends. The efficency they have achieved is about as good as you can get out of one of these ceels. They will need to scrub the gas to remove and recover the KOH out.
These cells are not efficient enough to self run a gasoline engige. I could do allthe maths but lets just say you want to be at least below .5watts per litre not their current achievemnet of 2.5 watts per litre. Faradays (which is the wrong way to describe it but a term that has been adopted by many researchers) is around 2.4 watts. I have seen a Boyce one ge beter than 1.4 watts.
Then their is the argument the gas has special properties which enable more bang for the bucks. Given some of the theories on fractional hydrogen there could be something there. However, everyone I have known of or visited never could get an engine to self run on HHO (they actually run fine with it) without an external energy source (battery or power supply). In some cases they accumilated the gas then ran the engine (Terro video's)
Hope this helps......Mark
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Sente on May 22, 2010, 07:24:56 AM
hi

@ kallstrom_74

is this perhaps a idea for heating ?
http://www.youtube.com/user/MrEntelecheia#p/u/14/v8QCly5zZ0g

cutting  system  works fein an jears experience but nobody build a heating system . 

http://hhogastechnology.weebly.com/epoch-products.html
http://www.browngas.com/eng_bestkorea/main_eng.htm


mfg


sente

Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: kallstrom_74 on May 26, 2010, 10:57:13 PM
Has there been any more news on this anton cell? has anyone got one to try it out..or can we perhaps build one ourselfs somehow?
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Sente on May 27, 2010, 12:02:09 AM
hi


no

in the moment i replicate the system.

http://www.overunity.de/index.php?topic=627.0

http://www.youtube.com/user/Sente2000#p/a/u/1/5EMxJs5CK2c


mfg

sente
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: vrand on May 31, 2010, 07:44:26 AM
New paper published using a laboratory gas spectrometer analysis on Brown’s Gas.

Scientific model published for Brown's gas

http://pesn.com/2010/05/28/9501658-Plasma_Orbital_Expansion-of-the-Electrons_in_Water/ (http://pesn.com/2010/05/28/9501658-Plasma_Orbital_Expansion-of-the-Electrons_in_Water/)

Christopher Eckman has been turning heads for a couple of years now in the free energy community with his academic studies and tests on Brown's gas at the University of Idaho.  He proposes a model in which the H2O molecule in Brown's gas actually becomes linear and electrical in nature.  In the linear form, it loses its dipole and thus can exist in gaseous form which Eckman dubs "electric steam".  The dipole is the primary means by which water adheres to things, including itself in liquid form.  When the 'electric steam' is ignited and strikes the substrate, it is the electrical energy that is released and is responsible for the heat transference to the substrate, not the temperature of the actual flame that does the work.  Liquid water can be seen dripping off of metal substrate.

Regards, Mike R.

ps maybe someone can send Eckman an Anton cell to analyze its HHO gas  ;)
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: nicbordeaux on June 07, 2010, 01:29:35 PM
Have a look at these 2 new videos
from the German Anton HHO cell team !


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaiyjV8OpC4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYJOAqPYmkk

Is this the future of energy production ?

A, Stefan.

Hi, this is going to make me very popular, ja ? You guys are giving the "clean energy" field a very bad name with all these spectacular announcements about miraculous breakthroughs with hydrogen, magnets, "zero point energy" (WTF is that ?) . You have to get it into your heads that there is an infinite amount of energy in the universe, so you can't "create" energy, you can harness it. Or "harvest" it. At the moment what you're doing is encouraging poor people to lash out all their pocket money on neo mags.

Take this new announcement (this topic) as an example : all you need to do is get the guys to give you the data (you claim it's open source) and replicate it. If you can't replicate it, there is a problem. Discussing the possibilities is just loose talk. Get a team together with all the measuring stuff, go for it.

Unless you can convert endless talk as hot air into usable energy via a carnot engine ?


Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: sushimoto on June 07, 2010, 02:16:45 PM
Hi, this is going to make me very popular, ja ? You guys are giving the "clean energy" field a very bad name with all these spectacular announcements about miraculous breakthroughs with hydrogen, magnets, "zero point energy" (WTF is that ?) . You have to get it into your heads that there is an infinite amount of energy in the universe, so you can't "create" energy, you can harness it. Or "harvest" it. At the moment what you're doing is encouraging poor people to lash out all their pocket money on neo mags.

Take this new announcement (this topic) as an example : all you need to do is get the guys to give you the data (you claim it's open source) and replicate it. If you can't replicate it, there is a problem. Discussing the possibilities is just loose talk. Get a team together with all the measuring stuff, go for it.

Unless you can convert endless talk as hot air into usable energy via a carnot engine ?

...Another bunch of words.

Hope anybody can make use of the warm air coming out of your mouth.
Oh no.
Stop.
Virtual Cowboys in front of the computer are just breathing to their monitor..
;D

Why dont you "Get a team together with all the measuring stuff and go for it."?

Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: nicbordeaux on June 07, 2010, 10:15:54 PM
...Another bunch of words.

Hope anybody can make use of the warm air coming out of your mouth.
Oh no.
Stop.
Virtual Cowboys in front of the computer are just breathing to their monitor..
;D

Why dont you "Get a team together with all the measuring stuff and go for it."?

Because Sushimoto, I work on grav and effects of motion devices, and don't need a team of experts. Either it works, or it don't. Come on, seriously, you guys have been every month announcing major Nooooo breakthrus in the fields of Tesla ZPE with magnets and hocus pocus from aliens crashed at Roswell for the past three decades. Where are all them gizmos I see announced imminent everywhere here which I just stick in my car and it runs on water or magnets, the small black box which is going to power a whole town ?

Virtual cowboys ? How did ya guess dude ? Doesn't yawl know I might be gonna get out my ZPE magnotronic virtual peashooter (investors encouraged) and start loosing off the rounds of kryptonite bullits ?

If you have any perspective, you can only agree with me, too many "revolutionnary noo tech made from salvaged baked bean tins and fridge magnets", and no results whatsoever. None. Zilch. Nada.
Hasta la vista anyway, and keep getting excited about ZPE (sounds like a STD)  ::)
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: markdansie on June 08, 2010, 12:20:16 AM
@Nick the virtual cowboy,
sadly many of your comments are true. i have assembled many a testing team and the results to date are at this stage close to zero.
However many ideas are worth pursuing and to many this is a hobby and the site is often very entertaining. I personally like the diversity of views and opinions including people like yourself.
Where I disagree is not everyone is working with fridge magnets and tin cans. many people her are qualified scientists and many are well educated and resourced with great equipment. Does free energy exist? I cant answer that but its just as just as bad to assume it doesn't as it does.
many people here specialise in differed areas and I have come to meet many over the years. They are good people and in my opinion doing worthy work. Sharing failures as well as successes is a good way for all of us to progress.
I wish you well on your en devours and perhaps you would be kind enough to share your work and ideas with some of us.
Kind Regards
Mark
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: nicbordeaux on June 08, 2010, 10:31:11 AM
@A the virtual cowboy,
sadly many of your comments are true. i have assembled many a testing team and the results to date are at this stage close to zero.
However many ideas are worth pursuing and to many this is a hobby and the site is often very entertaining. I personally like the diversity of views and opinions including people like yourself.
Where I disagree is not everyone is working with fridge magnets and tin cans. many people her are qualified scientists and many are well educated and resourced with great equipment. Does free energy exist? I cant answer that but its just as just as bad to assume it doesn't as it does.
many people here specialise in differed areas and I have come to meet many over the years. They are good people and in my opinion doing worthy work. Sharing failures as well as successes is a good way for all of us to progress.
I wish you well on your en devours and perhaps you would be kind enough to share your work and ideas with some of us.
Kind Regards
Mark

Hi Mark, and thx for the candid respoponse,  must say I agree w/ you. There are some serious people. Does "Free energy" exist ? All enrgy is free or not depending on how you cost it, in monetary terms. Matter is a transient state of energy (Bang Bang Bang, another virtual cowboy bites the dust), just a question of finding the right process. Which doesn't mean baked bean tins and fridge mags. Ref grav motion, cyclic and self sustaining it's a very distinct possibility, though there again there is a little more to it than sticking a load of ball bearings trundling round in a load of slots on a plyboard disk, then saying you need a ferris wheel with 1000 kgs weights trundling around and with a bicycle dynamo and you're gonna save humanity  :( This type of gizmo is called the "Moron wheel". More on one side, and invariably the wrong side.

Sure, I'll share, but private mail.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: sushimoto on June 08, 2010, 04:30:13 PM
Because Sushimoto, I work on grav and effects of motion devices, and don't need a team of experts. Either it works, or it don't. Come on, seriously, you guys have been every month announcing major Nooooo breakthrus in the fields of Tesla ZPE with magnets and hocus pocus from aliens crashed at Roswell for the past three decades. Where are all them gizmos I see announced imminent everywhere here which I just stick in my car and it runs on water or magnets, the small black box which is going to power a whole town ?

Virtual cowboys ? How did ya guess dude ? Doesn't yawl know I might be gonna get out my ZPE magnotronic virtual peashooter (investors encouraged) and start loosing off the rounds of kryptonite bullits ?

If you have any perspective, you can only agree with me, too many "revolutionnary noo tech made from salvaged baked bean tins and fridge magnets", and no results whatsoever. None. Zilch. Nada.
Hasta la vista anyway, and keep getting excited about ZPE (sounds like a STD)  ::)

Hi Nick,
its good to see that you have a good sense of humor.
And in addition to that, you are right when talking about ZPE.

I personally dont look too desperately for "Free-energy"
but rather for effi-sciency. Most of the debates here are very much
underunity in terms of communication. Most people are just looking for
getting something for free. Like free-beer or so.
Science is not free or even to get at a no-budget level.

As markdansie mentioned, please share with the right people.

best, sushi


Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: kallstrom_74 on June 15, 2010, 10:29:10 PM
any news about this buzz about antoncells and overunity? anyone else got any overunity of this? or is it a hoax?
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: nicbordeaux on June 16, 2010, 01:55:21 AM
any news about this A about antoncells and overunity? anyone else got any overunity of this? or is it a hoax?

It's not because it doesn't work and isn't replicable because of not being workable that a device or experiment is necessarily a fraud. In this field almost all claims are due to overexcitement, bad or non existent measurements...
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: CompuTutor on June 16, 2010, 02:48:10 AM
Stefan posted links April 25, 2010,
if we haven't heard more by now....
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: sushimoto on June 16, 2010, 10:26:10 AM
Hi,
what do you expect?
The System is still up and running.

They are evaluating many more possibilities with HHO and other stuff.
The motor was just one of them. If you watch the channel,
you will see that there are more experiments on the list of "effisciency".
http://www.youtube.com/user/MrEntelecheia

Best,
sushi


Stefan posted links April 25, 2010,
if we haven't heard more by now....
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: nicbordeaux on June 16, 2010, 10:58:30 PM
Hi,
what do you expect?
The System is still up and running.

They are A many more possibilities with HHO and other stuff.
The motor was just one of them. If you watch the channel,
you will see that there are more experiments on the list of "effisciency".
http://www.youtube.com/user/MrEntelecheia

Best,
sushi

Forgive my ignorance, I'm nooo to this field, except for some small knowlege of nickel plating kits for DIY use...

What has been the research so far on redox w/o external applied voltage, worked both ways (transfer one way, then the other, or anode/cathode reversal) in a closed environment? If the right compounds / mediums have been found what is the efficiency of a full cycle ? Or to put that diferently, how long could a e.c. reaction last ?

Or if  v is created by a chemical reaction as in batteries, electrochemical reaction, what attempts have been made to restore potential through similar "reversal" or even introduction of another compound, or just addition of the more depleted compound ?

There must be a thread here about the perfect, self perpetuating anode/cathode/electrolytic solution ?  ;)
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: CompuTutor on June 17, 2010, 07:16:42 AM
Hi,
what do you expect?
The System is still up and running.

Thank you for the link,
here are their uploads:

http://www.youtube.com/user/MrEntelecheia#p/u

Now,
except for work on spark plugs
in the middle of the air (only).

The only vid of the genset
is a month old like the rest.

How is it your so sure
it is still running fine?

There are no followup videos
or any other proof this works.

Nothing personal,
but I think your
your running on faith.

Thats not a bad thing...
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: sushimoto on June 17, 2010, 11:42:35 AM
Thank you for the link,
here are their uploads:

http://www.youtube.com/user/MrEntelecheia#p/u

Now,
except for work on spark plugs
in the middle of the air (only).

The only vid of the genset
is a month old like the rest.

How is it your so sure
it is still running fine?

There are no followup videos
or any other proof this works.

Nothing personal,
but I think your
your running on faith.

Thats not a bad thing...

Hi CompuTutor,
yepp, "Faith" is not a bad thing.
Without faith, you dont need to get up in the morning.

But in the case of making "fire" from electricity,
it not a bad thing to research on HHO
because has none of the "side-effects" of conventional carbon-based fuels.
No pollution, no tinkering with the planet and no catastrophic
consequences as seen on tv.
As long as mankind is using fire and burning stuff,
HHO and its derivates is the first choice because its
absolutely neutral to the environment.
No matter if a system is "Overunity" or not,
i am happy with "Unity".

Is there any other possibility to produce your own fuel
"on-demand" and "on-site"?

Maybe this Community desperately searching for
"free energy" instead of efficency is the wrong place for me?

"free beer" is spilling out of the gulf of mexico and the
world gets its bill right now.

Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: nicbordeaux on June 23, 2010, 12:15:00 AM
Hi CompuTutor,
yepp, "A" is not a bad thing.
Without faith, you dont need to get up in the morning.

But in the case of making "fire" from electricity,
it not a bad thing to research on HHO
because has none of the "side-effects" of conventional carbon-based fuels.
No pollution, no tinkering with the planet and no catastrophic
consequences as A.
As long as mankind is using fire and burning stuff,
HHO and its derivates is the first choice because its
absolutely neutral to the environment.
No matter if a system is "Overunity" or not,
i am happy with "Unity".

Is there any other possibility to produce your own fuel
"on-demand" and "on-site"?

Maybe this A desperately searching for
"free energy" instead of efficency is the wrong place for me?

"free beer" is spilling out of the gulf of mexico and the
world gets its bill right now.

The search for efficiency is paramount, just take a gasoline engine's efficiency, don't let anybody tell you all that lost heat can't be at least 50% recovered. The quest for new sources of energy or new ways of harnessing energy is also important, even if a lot of people are confused about you have to use baked bean tins and magnets  :(

Required reading for anybody who believes we are stuck at the upmost limit of knowledge (and therefore know all) might be Profiles Of The Future by Arthur C. Clarke. In particular pages 18-19 which refer to the utter absurdity of rockets according to most 1920's scientists, who were very dismissive to say the least, and had scientific data to back their argument.
Chapter 5 "Beyond Gravity" is also of interest.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: gmeast on July 21, 2010, 09:35:40 PM
The search for efficiency is paramount, just take a gasoline engine's efficiency, don't let anybody tell you all that lost heat can't be at least 50% recovered. The quest for new sources of energy or new ways of harnessing energy is also important, even if a lot of people are confused about you have to use baked bean tins and magnets  :(
...................................


You are so right on the efficiency point !  Having worked on a government-funded adiabatic diesel engine project, I know it is of paramount importance to pursue 'high efficiency'.  In the A-D project we used ceramics to reduce heat loss to the cylinders and head.  In a parallel project we employed both regenerator & recouperator technologies to recover (otherwise) waste exhaust heat.  We had good success with a 6.5 : 1 compression ratio 4-stroke engine wherein the exhaust gas was passed through recoup tubes passing through the combustion chamber ... the low CR being because of the unavoidable dead space resulting from the tubes passing through the head.  But even at the reduced efficiency caused by the low CR, the efficiency GAIN was 25% + because of the new, more sophisticated thermodynamic cycle of the engine.  The next step was to add a turbo charger to offset the CR issue.  The projections from just the recoup config. was enough to suggest this as a good design concept to pursue in a production model. 

The AD required sophisticated materials science to interface the ceramic and metal parts, but the recoup engine required NOTHING NEW (MM&T-wise) just holes, a header, 3/16" x0.010" SS tubing, some vacuum brazing and some good refractory materials (all available & cheap), but none of this fits the current automotive manufacturing/profit models.

However, if you go electric, none of the above matters because you're already at 80% + conversion efficiency and 60% + centralized electrical power generating efficiency ... and that's 48% overall efficiency compared to 23% gasoline engine and 35% - 38% ... maybe 40% for diesel (max for auto-sized diesel & 45% - 50% for large {big, big} truck and marine diesels).

Later,

Greg
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: dasimpson on July 23, 2010, 01:28:30 AM
the reasion the egnine takes off so fast is they are feeding way to much gas into the engine a 12v batterys should be the unit makeing the power to produce that gas this could be run from the engine alternater to keep it charged and the high voltage genny part for the lighting lower the gas produced and it wont take off as fast
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: mscoffman on August 14, 2010, 06:00:17 PM

New Video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSe943wkUfg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSe943wkUfg)

He is so close...He now needs to get rid of the small 12VDC ignition power
supply connection. My advice is to use the (now unused) spark magneto
output from the engine and step it down with a second ignition coil.
Then convert and regulate it to 12VDC to power the electronic ignition
circuit. It can't be taking that much current. Then he would have a real
stand alone self running system.

:S:MarkSCoffman
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Sente on August 14, 2010, 07:55:37 PM
hi

sorry das ich wieder mal welten zerstöre:

fakt

man brauch keine 2. zündspule  , fakt

last da mal

und das was gezeigt wird ist nur ein teil, also bitte.
nicht versuchen  mit unnützen blödsinn die leute in die falsche richtung zu leiten.


reicht das immer noch nicht ?

ihr bastelt und macht nur rafft ihr es nicht,   1 zündspule,  verstellbare zündung und gut ist.


so könnt ihr ja übersetzen oder lasst es sein und schlaft weiter.

echt grausam hier im forum

23.000  mitglieder und kein video von einem stationären wassermotor ?

was ist hier los ? alle angst oder  sucht ihr nur und wenn ihr es gefunden habt sucht ihr weiter.!?

mfg

sente


p.s
gerade die leutz aus den USA , sollten mal wach werden und auf die barrikaden gehn, ihr habt gerade ein netten mann ins weiße haus gewählt.
ein tip von mir , organisiert euch und jagt alle 50 geheimdienste aus dem land oder löst sie auf und konfessiert alle gelder auch die versteckten.
bzw, steckt sie direckt in die gaskammer , oder auf den stuhl.
die verarschen euch seit 70 jahren.

Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Lakes on August 15, 2010, 11:56:11 AM
How long before they sell plans/generator mod kits I wonder?
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: sushimoto on August 15, 2010, 08:37:03 PM
How long before they sell plans/generator mod kits I wonder?

Hi,
what are you implying with this comment?

AFAIK, they dont have anything to sell..
Everything is well documented and you can build it for free.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Lakes on August 15, 2010, 08:59:19 PM
The cell is documented and you can buy the kit to build them, but what about the generator mods?

Anyway would like to see some replications of this.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Sente on August 15, 2010, 09:38:20 PM
hi


pass mal auf du halb primitive lebensform auf kohlenstoffbasis

die generator modifikationen stehen seit 10j  im internet , wer lesen kann ist klar im vorteil .

aber mit einem schulsystem mit 7 fächern und einer bevölkerung, wo gemeint wird der ex diktator hussein kann mit waffen die staaten angreiffen.

braucht man nichts verkaufen, sie verstehen es auch mit anleitung nicht,das prinzip  ist so einfach.

schlaf weiter


mfg

sente
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: teej_seeker on August 20, 2010, 04:16:26 AM
hi folks,

just stumbled upon this thread. may i know what sente is saying?

/t
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: xeux on August 29, 2010, 07:14:24 PM
:) Hello All overunity Folks .

Nod bad the antoncell HHO  :o , If anyone can use A power supply drop me a mail .

27,3 volt telecom PSU`s 700 watt each can be placed in parallel up to many KW`s

48 volt PSU 41 amps  !!! can be place parallel as well  each psu is 2 KW`s

40-54 volt 600 watt psu can be placed parallel

there all professional telecom psu`s

perfect for you HHO cell or load battery banks

I have serval HHO units plate and tube`s Open source

Ok have a nice one.

john



Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Hope on September 08, 2010, 08:12:07 AM
WHAT???
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: sfieszaq on September 10, 2010, 08:09:18 PM
How to IMPROVE HHO Cell?!

It is just MY point of view:

- PWM is basic but electrodes have to be polarized all the time too (DC). It is combined set. DC maintains ions. PWM breaks HHO.
- plates/electrodes cannot be smooth! It should work like spark gaps. On the end of spike there is much more electrons than on smooth surface.

Good luck! ;)

SfieszaQ ;D
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: mijdtr on September 15, 2010, 05:11:56 AM
hi folks,

just stumbled upon this thread. may i know what sente is saying?

/t

German to English translation
hi


best times of life on you half-primitive-carbon base

the generator modifications internet since 10j are in, who can read is clearly in advantage.

fan but with a school system with seven and a population, which is meant the ex dictator hussein can angreiffen weapons with the States.

you need to sell anything, they understand it and with instructions not, the principle is so simple.

sleep again


mfg

sente
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: mijdtr on September 15, 2010, 05:15:19 AM
hi

sorry das ich wieder mal welten zerstöre:

fakt

man brauch keine 2. zündspule  , fakt

last da mal

und das was gezeigt wird ist nur ein teil, also bitte.
nicht versuchen  mit unnützen blödsinn die leute in die falsche richtung zu leiten.


reicht das immer noch nicht ?

ihr bastelt und macht nur rafft ihr es nicht,   1 zündspule,  verstellbare zündung und gut ist.


so könnt ihr ja übersetzen oder lasst es sein und schlaft weiter.

echt grausam hier im forum

23.000  mitglieder und kein video von einem stationären wassermotor ?

was ist hier los ? alle angst oder  sucht ihr nur und wenn ihr es gefunden habt sucht ihr weiter.!?

mfg

sente


p.s
gerade die leutz aus den USA , sollten mal wach werden und auf die barrikaden gehn, ihr habt gerade ein netten mann ins weiße haus gewählt.
ein tip von mir , organisiert euch und jagt alle 50 geheimdienste aus dem land oder löst sie auf und konfessiert alle gelder auch die versteckten.
bzw, steckt sie direckt in die gaskammer , oder auf den stuhl.
die verarschen euch seit 70 jahren.

German to English translation
hi

sorry I destroy worlds again:

fact

we need no second ignition coil, fakt

since last time

and what is shown is only one part, so please.
not useless to try with the people in the wrong direction nonsense guide to.


this is not enough still?

it only makes tinkering and pulls her not to an ignition coil, ignition and adjustable good.


and then you can translate it or let it continue to be so and sleep.

really cruel here in the forum

23 000 members and no video from a stationary motor water?

what's going on? all looking for angst or her only and if you have found her looking on.!?

mfg

sente


p.s
just selected the Leutz from the U.S., should be awake and times go to the barricades, you have just a nice man into the white house.
a tip from me organized, and you chase all 50 intelligence agencies from the country or dissolve them and konfessiert all monies including the hidden.
or put it in direckt the gas chamber, or on the chair.
the years since you kidding 70th
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: mr.uu on September 28, 2010, 07:41:26 PM
OfftopicModeON;

@sente: Völker zu beleidigen nutzt niemanden etwas. Du als Deutscher solltest doch wissen, dass das Volk meist wenig bis gar nichts für das politische System kann. Dieses wird geschickt, basierend auf Lügen und Halbwahrheiten, etabliert und von den steuernden Hintermännern finanziert. Und wenn es dann mal da ist...
Und: was ist mit der US-affinen Politik Deutschlands? Kämpfst du aktiv dagegen an und schmeißt du alle Geheimdienste, die in Deutschland aktiv sind, raus?

OfftopicModeOFF


Interesting Build. I studied lots of S. Meyer information and can´t imagine any efficiency improvement without achieving resonance (adopting to the changes while operating) in the cells.
This should be the main goal...


uu
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: mscoffman on September 29, 2010, 06:18:16 PM
@all

People interested in true overunity electrolysis should support effort
on the device listed below in the following link IMHO. There are
indications of at least (6x) six times energy gain in the device listed.

http://www.freddyscell.com/

It's called Freddy's Electrolyzer. There is also a yahoo group
about this device. I think his device would formally be called a "Hyro-Acoustic
Resonant Electrolyzer". It's pure CF Cold Fusion energy gain based in
the hydrogen isotope deuterium in natural water. So it's a fueled
process but the fuel comes free in normal water. The resonance
refers to hydro-acoustics mechanical and not electronic LC or RF resonance.

The following web link is the 2003 paper by Roger Stringham which is
100% applicable in presenting evidence of additional energy from CF.

http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/StringhamRcavitationb.pdf

In effect, there is no reason why Freddy's Electrolyzer can't serve as
a front end to selectively generating the phonons required to form the
TCB's terminal cavitation bubbles that initiates the CF process as
described in Stringham's paper.

What I see happening is the HHO bubbles come off the electrolyzer plates
in synchronism with the PWM square wave trigger signal applied to electrolyzer
drive power. The bubbles surface then vibrates and produces acoustic waves
which are amplified by resonance and then directed and applied to initiate the
vacuum TCB's.


Cautions:
Standard materials should be used to prevent contamination from
occurring that could result in the CF reaction showing it's true nature.
ICE engine damage could result by running on HHO or hydrogen gas if
additional CF happens in engine components. HHO gas is an explosive
whose energy depends on it's pressure and volume. Care needs to be
taken to limit the net accumulated HHO volume and pressure of during
experiments and use.

---

I'd like to see Anton focus on hydrogen fuel-cells which are in engineering
terms very similar mechanically to electrolysers, except they are at
least 50% efficient rather the 33% for an ICE Carnot heat engine.

:S:MarkSCoffman
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: American on October 24, 2010, 07:41:13 AM
I know that this might sound stupid, and I admit to not having read through most of the topics yet, but has anyone tried using HHO in a turbine engine?  or in an aviation context at all?
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Paul-R on October 27, 2010, 03:48:49 PM
I know that this might sound stupid, and I admit to not having read through most of the topics yet, but has anyone tried using HHO in a turbine engine?  or in an aviation context at all?
Very sesnisble question. Yes, NASA has. You should get it from
their archives. I'll try and dig it up. In the meanwhile, this doc might interest you:
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20030020905_2003026266.pdf
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: reada on October 27, 2010, 05:33:35 PM
I know that this might sound stupid, and I admit to not having read through most of the topics yet, but has anyone tried using HHO in a turbine engine?  or in an aviation context at all?

http://boeing.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=1108 (http://boeing.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=1108)
Boeing is currently trying (somehow)
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: raburgeson on November 30, 2010, 07:59:00 PM
Are they using ambient air for chamber expansion? Are they trying to use a sealed mixture? Could the running away from the engine possibly cause by to much fuel/air mixture? Is the engine timing driven by the cam or the crankshaft? Looks like the crankshaft. It might help to run it by the camshaft and retard both at the same time with a single control. Would the system work better with a two stroke engine? You don't have to have overunity at this point to make the world better. Just something that beats the price at the pump 2:1 would be a godsend. Specially a system that does not pollute. So if you have to charge an extra battery once a week. Is it capable of running a week on one car battery? At this point we have to look at close enough systems also. Might have enough power to run a small motorcycle? I wonder if custom port timing on a 2 stroke engine would help. It would take some major experimenting but it might help. The Japanese were experts at this and perfected it for gasoline in the 350 Yamaha engine. The conversion of a gasoline engine because they exist has not been giving positive results. You have to face it that Gasoline engines aren't very efficient even when they are burning gasoline.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: hartiberlin on December 08, 2010, 12:42:33 PM

New Video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSe943wkUfg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSe943wkUfg)

Great Video Valentin !

Now this proves, that HHO alone can run in a self closed loop system.

Now, if you can still power the few Watts for your ignition coil also from
the output of the generator that would be the final proof, that the system
works on its own energy just using water.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: markdansie on December 08, 2010, 01:02:36 PM
Hi
it has not been independently verified ..an exhaust gas analysis is needed. I do wish them well but was there any hydrocarbons in the water?
Mark
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: bolt on December 26, 2010, 11:26:42 AM
You will be able to detect hydrocarbons in the exhaust as the engine requires 4 stroke crankcase oil. Tiny amounts will be traceable as it lubes the engine. BUT this is NOT the source of the energy.

HHO recombination undergoes transformations due to valance electron binding regardless of the chemical reactions taking place it IS for all intents an Electron mitigating process and ambient energy is added to the recomposition back to water. This aspect is almost ALWAYS left out of Faraday equations where typical net energy gain for HHO often has a COP>3! While pulsed resonance electrolysis will increase the nett energy gain further still its NOT required to do so to realize OU. In fact conventional electrolysis can and does already yield excess energy with ICE and actually causes the ICE to run much colder than with gasoline mix or pure browns gas. To copy what i wrote elsewhere about this..

This is why in the looper for argument set some numbers and say they need 1kw
to break the water to HHO. This yields potential energy of of least 3kw upon
recombination. 1kW will be used to run the engine although a lot will go as heat
and can be recovered.

2kw will used to run generator which is also only 75% efficient but it will generate 1500 watts nett and recover the 1kw required to run the cell. Some 500 watts OU are left in the
system. Its enough to run a 500 watt flood lamp. Despite ALL the losses there is
enough OU to make it work.

This is why even when using tiny amounts in a car engine it has a great effect
on the fuel economy. Its not just about making a clean burn it adds energy at
the point of recombination to water far beyond that of conventional electrolysis
took to break it apart. If you add typical 3kw of real RE energy to a car engine
AND increase performance through a better burn of carbon products raising
efficiency from 23% to 29% it could easy result in an extra 5kw - 10kw of extra
power on the wheels which is about 10% of typical 100Kw car. Its enough to turn
on a tiny HHO cell and feel the extra KICK on the engine or increase mileage by
30-50% at steady 50-60MPH To fully realize these gains requires the map chip or oxygen sensors "lifting" to prevent excess fuel usage.

Youtube probably has some hundreds if not thousands of testimonies to this fact. After all anyone with some sense can see something special is happening far beyond the 500 watts of DC going into the cells. With fuel cost rising again at alarming rates semi truck drives with HHO twin stacks are getting from 6 - 8 mpg increased to 10 - 14 MPG. This represents a fuel saving of some $25,000 per year.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: NinaZor on February 15, 2011, 07:30:39 PM
Wow. I was just pointed to these boards to look at some cool engines, but if these videos are for real, I might actually dare to hope about hydrogen power in my lifetime!
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Doctor No on February 16, 2011, 10:11:13 PM
I remember that Russians had one Tu154H (H stood for hydrogen engines). It was in Cold Was Era. Officialy it was to study new ecological engines. But formerly it was for more peaceful purposes intended.;-)
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: skaarj on April 11, 2011, 04:51:00 PM
Hello

Anything new about Anton Cells devices?

How can I be of assistance in order to monitor the exhaust in a scientific environment? I am PhD, I have access to technology and also the scientific article I am currently working on is about HHO.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: eisnad karm on April 13, 2011, 09:30:18 AM
Hi Skaarg
i think this one will no progress much further without co-opperation of the builders to have exhaust gasses analysed and all other liquids.
However email me prvately and I can share with you many years of research into HHO use in combustion engines including gas analysis...
Kind regards
Karm
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: grizli on October 14, 2011, 01:11:10 PM
You will be able to detect hydrocarbons in the exhaust as the engine requires 4 stroke crankcase oil. Tiny amounts will be traceable as it lubes the engine. BUT this is NOT the source of the energy.

HHO recombination undergoes transformations due to valance electron binding regardless of the chemical reactions taking place it IS for all intents an Electron mitigating process and ambient energy is added to the recomposition back to water. This aspect is almost ALWAYS left out of Faraday equations where typical net energy gain for HHO often has a COP>3! While pulsed resonance electrolysis will increase the nett energy gain further still its NOT required to do so to realize OU. In fact conventional electrolysis can and does already yield excess energy with ICE and actually causes the ICE to run much colder than with gasoline mix or pure browns gas. To copy what i wrote elsewhere about this..

This is why in the looper for argument set some numbers and say they need 1kw
to break the water to HHO. This yields potential energy of of least 3kw upon
recombination. 1kW will be used to run the engine although a lot will go as heat
and can be recovered.

2kw will used to run generator which is also only 75% efficient but it will generate 1500 watts nett and recover the 1kw required to run the cell. Some 500 watts OU are left in the
system. Its enough to run a 500 watt flood lamp. Despite ALL the losses there is
enough OU to make it work.

This is why even when using tiny amounts in a car engine it has a great effect
on the fuel economy. Its not just about making a clean burn it adds energy at
the point of recombination to water far beyond that of conventional electrolysis
took to break it apart. If you add typical 3kw of real RE energy to a car engine
AND increase performance through a better burn of carbon products raising
efficiency from 23% to 29% it could easy result in an extra 5kw - 10kw of extra
power on the wheels which is about 10% of typical 100Kw car. Its enough to turn
on a tiny HHO cell and feel the extra KICK on the engine or increase mileage by
30-50% at steady 50-60MPH To fully realize these gains requires the map chip or oxygen sensors "lifting" to prevent excess fuel usage.

Youtube probably has some hundreds if not thousands of testimonies to this fact. After all anyone with some sense can see something special is happening far beyond the 500 watts of DC going into the cells. With fuel cost rising again at alarming rates semi truck drives with HHO twin stacks are getting from 6 - 8 mpg increased to 10 - 14 MPG. This represents a fuel saving of some $25,000 per year.

Small amout of HHO in car engine : does it require timing change for petrol (gasoline, NOT diesel ) car ?
WE know that HHO explodes much more faster than gas mixture, but what about gas mixture + very small amout of hho,? will speed of detonantion be faster , and is timing spark change required?
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: skaarj on October 14, 2011, 01:56:46 PM
     About the anton cells: I repeated the experiment. 380 volts, 16 amps, 100 plates, 400mm x 200mm x 3mm (yes, I must go to the asylum for insane people). Two scientific papers are to be published about this experiment. Micro-controller-based spark timing system, hardware neural network for monitoring the vibrations in the engine, auto-adaptive system for timing the spark based on the analyses of the incomming gases (analyses with solid state gas sensors from Figaro Inc.). 8 months of work. I also wrote to the authors for several times during February and June, this year. No reply yet. Experiment failed. Reason: a small amount of Ethilic Alcohol is needed in the final bubbler. Do not believe the videos. Together with HHO there's also something else that gets into the engine. And it's highly flammable.

      If there is no computer controlling the engine, then no spark timing modifications are required in this case.
I am working with an old Romanian car called Dacia 1300 made at the end of 1970, a clone of the french Renault Gordini - see the Wikipedia. A small ammount - at least 10% - of vaporised gasoline (no diesel, benzen) in the HHO gas (yes, this is what I said - a little gasoline mixed with a lot of HHO) sets the right timing. As soon as the gasoline mixture is gone, the engine will go crazy and you will get the return spark in the HHO injection pipe. Done that. At the end of the experiment (no more gasoline in HHO, then explosion) I had the same experience as Stan and Olive in their movies - a lot of oil on my face and in my hair after a big boom. All the chickens in the neighbors yards went crazy. The dogs in half of my village started a barking concert. I had to replace all the admision and exhaust valves, then to manually adjust their distances. Last measurements of the anton cells said around 90 liters of HHO per minute. Don't ask about the voltage and amps, they were huge.

So the answer to your question is no. In your case there is no need for spark timing modifications.

Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: grizli on October 15, 2011, 09:28:51 AM
    Last measurements of the anton cells said around 90 liters of HHO per minute. Don't ask about the voltage and amps, they were huge.


LOL

come back to earth :D wtih anton cell 90 LPM LOL
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: elecscooter on October 18, 2011, 07:26:38 AM
In theory a car can average a high speed, but in practise speed often falls below 10mph in cities. The problem is congestion - motorcycles get around this to some extent, but they're still confined to the road network. An electric bike (http://electricscootersworld.com/) can maintain a higher average speed than a bicycle, yet take advantage of the same network of cycle facilities, giving access to routes that cars and motorcycles cannot reach. The result is often a faster door-to-door journey time than any other mode. And by nipping along the relatively uncongested cycle network, but eliminating hills and headwinds, electric bikes are often the most consistent mode of travel.
 :)
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: tagor on December 19, 2011, 09:06:54 AM
look at this
 
 
http://www.overunity.com/9477/father-of-water-power-car-stanley-meyers-secret/msg308255/#msg308255 (http://www.overunity.com/9477/father-of-water-power-car-stanley-meyers-secret/msg308255/#msg308255)
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Paul-R on June 20, 2014, 05:24:13 PM
.
Plenty of videos which say little, no mention on Rexresearch, skating mention in Patrick's MorayKing.pdf

but not enough to replicate with.

******

Are full constructional details available for the Anton cell?

******.
.
Title: Re: Breakthrough with the Anton HHO cell !
Post by: Majestic81 on August 11, 2018, 09:56:12 PM
This Anton cell initiative fizzled out?