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Author Topic: Recharging Batteries using only voltage spikes. A Results Log Thread  (Read 24260 times)

Offline jeanna

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Re: Recharging Batteries using only voltage spikes. A Results Log Thread
« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2010, 06:03:16 AM »
I added a new battery to my charger today.
While I was watching the results of last night's charge on the Nicd, I put a very old and very depleted duracell into the charging seat. This was a battery that I have used UP and it was on the floor waiting to go to the dump.
that was before I started this project.
Today I gave the old duracell its first spike recharge. It took a while like 6 hours to get above 0.96v, but then after only a couple more hours it was at 1.76v. I tried it in the test light.
It is very bright.
I have a box of these duracells. mmm nice.

I was making a video to demo the reedswitch motor I made from a kit, when I noticed the light was still really bright so I filmed it too.

here is the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bt15wCEW6Hs


jeanna

(I don't like the lisp but my other camera won't turn on any more.)

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Offline jeanna

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Re: Recharging Batteries using only voltage spikes. A Results Log Thread
« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2010, 05:43:05 AM »
The Nicd which has been getting only spikes for recharging has reached a new level.
Twice this week, I left it on running a light overnight, and in the morning it was flashing then recovering then flashing again.
This is remarkable.
In the past this battery has slowly diminished until the light went out, and that was it.
Recovering by itself is another level of recovery to my mind.
I had to take the measurements fast, but what I saw was 0.203v which quickly recovered to 1.18v.
There are a couple of remarkable things about that.


The duracell is also doing really well. It goes for a long time too.
Basically, it is taking longer to run down these batteries than to charge them.

Here is how I know that.
I recharge one on the charging jt circuit while I discharge the other on the discharge jtc circuit.
The one is not finished discharging before the other is charged.

I have an idea on how to test this.
It is easy but it will take scheduling that might make it more difficult.
If I recharge one of the batteries for 6 hours, and switch, I should have a build-up of charge in the 2 batteries, since those same 6 hours will not at all drain it out.
Maybe I can do this.

Does anybody else want to try this?
It is better with the duracell than the nicad. It was immediately working with that duracell, and that puppy was gonzo.

Next, I need to get a 2 battery holder and see what happens with 2 in series.

jeanna.


Offline crowclaw

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Re: Recharging Batteries using only voltage spikes. A Results Log Thread
« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2010, 08:38:59 PM »
Hi Jeanna,

just an update on my findings. I have been experimenting  with various charging techniques and am currently using a 555 timer. My joule thief circuit does work OK with varring results regarding charge times, however a 555 timer offers the advantage of a wider frequency spectrum and marks/space output. A PP3 nicad that I have on charge is currently charging from under 1 volt to over 10 volts within approx 30 mins. But I must emphasize after many hours of trials I have found that (A)  frequency is dead critical, (B) The mark/space ratio and rise time must be spot on. Now the only problem is, results vary widely with cell types. The frequency I'm using is 1.7kHz-2kHz for my set up. A 15 turn pott is used to " fine tune" to find the sweet spot giving the fastest charge rate, but when you can find it the charge moves rapidly. If you imagine a JT circuit without a feedback winding where the base is driven from a 555 timer and the output taken via a diode from the collector to battery + with negative of battery to positive of source... this is where I'm at. My battery is now at 10.06 volts. Will post more info when I get chance OK 

Offline jeanna

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Re: Recharging Batteries using only voltage spikes. A Results Log Thread
« Reply #18 on: April 14, 2010, 10:05:29 PM »
Hi crowclaw,
That IS interesting.
1.2-1.5Khz is much slower than what I have been using.

So, I am saying this back to be sure I get what you are doing.
You are using a 555 timer in the place of the base resistor of a 'normal' jtc.
You are using the transistor C-E junction with a single diode at the collector connected to the positive of the battery you are charging... then the neg of that same battery gets connected to the positive of the source battery.

So, it means the battery you are charging does not go from the C to E of the transistor??
Is that right?

And where is the fine tuning pot?
Is it after the 555 at the base?

thank you,

jeanna


Offline crowclaw

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Re: Recharging Batteries using only voltage spikes. A Results Log Thread
« Reply #19 on: April 14, 2010, 11:36:42 PM »
Hi crowclaw,
That IS interesting.
1.2-1.5Khz is much slower than what I have been using.

So, I am saying this back to be sure I get what you are doing.
You are using a 555 timer in the place of the base resistor of a 'normal' jtc.
You are using the transistor C-E junction with a single diode at the collector connected to the positive of the battery you are charging... then the neg of that same battery gets connected to the positive of the source battery.

So, it means the battery you are charging does not go from the C to E of the transistor??
Is that right?

And where is the fine tuning pot?
Is it after the 555 at the base?

thank you,

jeanna

Hi Jeanna,
Yes the battery being charged is effectively connected across the primary coil winding which is C to positive line of circuit... via a diode. The 555 timer circuit has two Potts, one to adjust the frequency range and the other to adjust the mark to space ratio of the output signal. The capacitor/resistor values (C/R) chosen set the frequency of the 555 timer (astable mode), using a pott allows the R element to adjust the frequency of course. If you set up a similar test circuit you may find a different frequency could work for you!! but it is as I mentioned very very critical to the charging time period. My PP3 9 volt Nicad cell ( normally 8.4 volts for Nicad's) was terminated at 10.07 volts. I have left a very low resistance across it to completely discharge it again so I can repeat this experiment. I am also going to charge 12 volt gel cell again using same set up, so I am interested to see if the results compare at the same frequency or perhaps some other value? we will see. BTW the source voltage = 8.4volts but I don't think this is critical as long as the spikes are being produced. The coil was reclaimed from scrap and has a laminated core and is quite substantial, I will repeat the experiment with my JT coil using only the primary winding. Just keeping notes for now but if the results look generally encouraging I will post circuit details etc later, but there's more I want to do yet... time permitting. Kind regards

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Re: Recharging Batteries using only voltage spikes. A Results Log Thread
« Reply #19 on: April 14, 2010, 11:36:42 PM »
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Offline nul-points

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Re: Recharging Batteries using only voltage spikes. A Results Log Thread
« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2010, 12:51:15 AM »
hi Jeanna

you asked for people's experience of charging batteries from pulse circuits...

i hope the following info is appropriate (text & diagrams following in 3 sections)


my tests were with a switched-charge circuit, transferring charge from an input capacitor (or battery) via a coil and load, to charge an output capacitor with repetitive short bursts of pulses (eg 20 pulses in a burst, say)

after a number of cycles, the output capacitor charge was then also discharged thro' the load

in one of my tests, i used 1.2V NiMH AAAs as the loads - one battery received the cap charging pulses and the other received the cap discharge pulse
(i used an 8.4V 150mAh NiMH to supply the circuit)

you can see on the scope shot, the blue trace shows a burst of charging current pulses for one of the AAA NiMHs and the red trace is the combined voltage on the charging cap and 1st battery - the charged cap gets discharged into the 2nd AAA NiMH after each burst of pulses to the 1st battery

on a JT the 'pulses' would be the +ve & -ve half-cycles of the secondary output waveform

with the JT you could either charge each battery in series with a single diode across the secondary (two parallel branches, opposite polarities); or you could charge one battery inside a full-wave bridge rectifier

the first way is possibly more efficient - only 1 diode drop per battery - but divides the energy between two batteries

with the FWBR approach all the output energy is in a single battery - but there are 2 diodes in the path, so IF the final battery voltage turns out to be lower, then the stored energy is not quite so high because the power which the battery can deliver is proportional to Volts-squared

(End of part 1)

Offline nul-points

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Re: Recharging Batteries using only voltage spikes. A Results Log Thread
« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2010, 12:53:22 AM »
...Contd...

my general approach was 'a controlled switching of energy', rather than the JT's 'tapping of free-running energy-oscillation'

i had to supply the circuit with timing signals to switch the MOSFETs on and off, whereas on the JT, the natural oscillation of the coil feedback makes the Transistor 'switch' smoothly from On-to-Off-to-On etc in its sine wave operation - so the JT is certainly the simpler of the two circuits

i didn't need to use a transformer to step-up the output voltages because i was already using higher input voltages - i don't think this difference is important because both our circuits provide sufficient peak-to-peak output voltage to charge 1.2V batteries

if you look at the general switched-charge circuit (and i've shown the MOSFET switches as manual switches to simplify the view) you'll see that the pulses of energy are coupled to the load batteries via inductor and either capacitor or diode - it's about as simple as the JT output setup

(End of part 2)

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Re: Recharging Batteries using only voltage spikes. A Results Log Thread
« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2010, 12:53:22 AM »
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Offline nul-points

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Re: Recharging Batteries using only voltage spikes. A Results Log Thread
« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2010, 12:57:36 AM »
... Contd. ...

ok, so that's the context - here's the data:

first, i needed to find the energy capacity of the input battery

i gave the input battery a full charge on a commercial charger

then i connected that battery across a load resistor which produced a current draw approximately the same as my test circuit  (around 20mA)

the resistor value is not critical but it does need to be measured

i connected the load resistor across the battery and datalogged the voltage 'til the battery had discharged to 6V (the 'knee' in the voltage curve)

this give me data for the 8.4V battery graph below

using a spreadsheet on the data i was able to calculate the total input energy (in Joules, or Watt-seconds) supplied by the battery when discharging from full down to 6V

i recharged the 8.4V NiMH on the commercial charger again & connected the test circuit - the test was run until the 8.4V battery discharged down to 6V

after charging the two NiMH 1.2V AAAs i used the same method (using different load resistors) to find the energy which had been stored in them

the results were as follows:

energy supplied by 8.4V 150mA NiMH: approx 3910 Joules

total combined energy recovered from the two 1.2V NiMH AAAs: approx 1800 Joules

this was a reasonably close match to the the advertised regular efficiency of charging NiMHs (ie. around 50%)

all the best
sandy

Offline jeanna

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Re: Recharging Batteries using only voltage spikes. A Results Log Thread
« Reply #23 on: April 15, 2010, 03:51:43 AM »
Thank you Sandy,
I doubt I could repeat it back to you, but it is clear enough and I will study it a little more.

The only question I have after this is could you have missed capturing more?
In very many tests I did and still do find that it is possible to miss much, and not even know I am missing it.

In my opinion, this is because we aren't able to see the spikes that we miss.
They just aren't recorded in our meters most of the time.

My joule thief secondary is throwing spikes as high as 70 volts at a rate of 45Khz.
I am planning to put this onto a 12v gelcell, but later.

I wonder what would happen if you were to charge 4 batteries?
Would they charge as high as the 2AAA and in the same amount of time?

What if you were to reverse your set-up?
Would your NiMH AAA be able to produce high enough spikes to charge your NiMH 8.4v cell?

I saw a video of John Bedini where he said, what we're really dealing with is time.
It took doing these tests to really get what he meant by that.

Another q is about the difference it would make if you were to recharge these in parallel?
Do you suppose the spikes could be caught better in a parallel arrangement?

I really should buy John's dvd. I don't even know how he recharges a bank of 12v batteries, but I do know that I am getting higher and more frequent voltage spikes from my jtc's than he gets from his SG wheel, so I should be able to recharge a lot of batteries... right?(no free torque, though!  ;D )

Thanks sandy,
This is terrific research you have done.

If you are interested in these q's I pose, I hope you will see what you get for answers, and post them

thank you,

jeanna

Offline crowclaw

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Re: Recharging Batteries using only voltage spikes. A Results Log Thread
« Reply #24 on: April 15, 2010, 08:19:22 AM »
Hi Sandy

Good research and well documented. Did you find the switching frequency important to the timed rate of charge, i have already tried a similar arrangement to yours which works but used a triac for controlled pulsing. My set up as posted yesterday is the method I'm currently working on, my 8.4 volt battery will charge from approx 0.99v (fully discharged) to 10 volts in approx 3 mins. But I still have to log discharge rates before we get to excited... I have been pretty cruel with it though. As i have so far discovered the charging time depends on a critical frequency spot being found, and this for my current trial is so critical it's unbelievable. A fraction either way on a precision 15 turn pott makes all the difference!! I recall JB mentioning something similar in one of his experiments?
 Nice work Sandy     Kind Regards.

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Re: Recharging Batteries using only voltage spikes. A Results Log Thread
« Reply #24 on: April 15, 2010, 08:19:22 AM »
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Offline nul-points

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Re: Recharging Batteries using only voltage spikes. A Results Log Thread
« Reply #25 on: April 15, 2010, 09:33:31 AM »
hi Jeanna & crowclaw

thanks for your kind comments - appreciated!


i'll try & answer some of the points you raise:

> could you have missed capturing more?

i agree - there's a lot more going on in spikes than we usually see with our test equipment - and i suspect that this is exactly where all the interesting stuff is happening!!

i took a variety of scope 'snapshots' throughout the different tests i did with battery charging, to see what how my test circuit was operating with batteries compared to the usual resistive load - it looked pretty much the same (apart from the fixed voltage offset on the output caused by the output battery itself, of course!)

due to the nature of the energy conversion of around 4000 Watt-seconds total at only 160mW per second, each test took many hours (as you can see from the graphs) - so there was only so much data i could usefully capture with my 'scope in datalogging mode



> I wonder what would happen if you were to charge 4 batteries?  Would they charge as high as the 2AAA and in the same amount of time

i suspect not - i ran a test with two batteries in one of the two paths (ie direct pulse charge) and the same output energy as the single battery in that path just got divided between the two batteries


> What if you were to reverse your set-up?  Would your NiMH AAA be able to produce high enough spikes to charge your NiMH 8.4v cell?

unfortunately not - my test circuit is not a voltage-booster like the JT - the output voltage on the switched-charge circuit is always lower


> Another q is about the difference it would make if you were to recharge these in parallel?
Do you suppose the spikes could be caught better in a parallel arrangement?

well, the output batteries were 'in parallel' across the circuit - but each was receiving separate 'packets' of charge - so i guess you mean to have the output batteries exactly side-by-side (+ to +, - to -)

i did try this but, as i realised afterwards, this was never going to work:
  different batteries have slightly different characteristics and the battery which charges slower 'drags' any parallel batteries down to its terminal voltage - it 'holds back' other batteries from charging at their own individual rates

however, on the JT, since the secondary produces an AC waveform, you can connect two batteries in parallel across the secondary output - you have to connect them in opposite polarity, each with its own separate charging diode:

|  JT secondary o/p   |
|                              |
v                             v
|--------|>|---/-////+/-------|
|--------|<|---/+///-/--------|


> I am getting higher and more frequent voltage spikes from my jtc's than he gets from his SG wheel, so I should be able to recharge a lot of batteries... right?

i'd be interested to hear if you can get solid quanties of Joules (Watt-seconds) by using just large & more frequent spikes - the evidence i saw from the results i showed above was that the total area under the spikes (the power content) was what gave the actual charge in that test, no matter how many or their magnitude

having said that, i have a long-running test going at the moment to see if i can 'self-trickle-charge' an AAA NiMH driving its own VERY low-power circuit which pulses 3 LEDs in parallel and feeds the output current & flyback current back into the same AAA

the circuit SHOULD just discharge the battery (and will slowly discharge a cap) but i'm hoping that there might be some low-level charging action on the battery just from the spikes - the drain is probably a fraction of a micro-amp though, so it's going to take a looong time to find out if the battery is discharging! (been running a few weeks now, i think, at 1.260V!)


> Did you find the switching frequency important to the timed rate of charge

good question - since each test took many hours (followed by many more to recharge the input battery afterwards!) i didn't try altering the pulse rate very often!

i agree it's an important test to try - i'm interested to hear how you get on

i did try 8.4v to 8.4v recharging on my test circuit but (as i mentioned in answering one of Jeanna's qs above) the output voltage wasn't really sufficient and very little charge got transferred

> my 8.4 volt battery will charge from approx 0.99v (fully discharged) to 10 volts in approx 3 mins. But I still have to log discharge rates before we get to excited...

i agree - one thing i found was that the output battery rises to its final charged voltage very quickly but this doesn't give an indication of the charge it has taken

the batteries would stay at that voltage for hours whilst they received all their charge from the input

only the discharge test at the end showed just how much charge they could deliver back!   :(


sorry - bit of a marathon reply!!!

all the best in your investigations - keep it rolling!
sandy

Offline nul-points

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Re: Recharging Batteries using only voltage spikes. A Results Log Thread
« Reply #26 on: April 15, 2010, 09:36:37 AM »
apologies - i drew the diodes the wrong polarity above!

SHOULD be:-

|  JT secondary o/p   |
|                              |
v                             v
|--------|<|---/-////+/-------|
|--------|>|---/+///-/--------|


Offline jeanna

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2 discharging while 1 charges!
« Reply #27 on: April 20, 2010, 04:46:21 AM »
Hi everybody,
I have just added another duracell to my battery recharging "wheel".
I noticed that I was discharging longer than I was recharging so today is the first full day of discharging 2 while charging only one.
It is still lopsided, but the duracell's are taking a charge, and while the voltage level SEEMS to be less than usable, I am nevertheless, able to run a jtc with one of them for 10 hours or more.

Also, the Nicd 500mAH AA is probably fully restored at this point.
It runs a jtc for 8 hours and then goes into blink then recover mode at around 10 hours. This means it never fully goes out because it seems to be able to blink and recover for hours and never go below 1.0v after the moment of recovery.
This seems strange for any battery, but I am just saying what I am seeing.

So, it looks like this is really working.
Next, I want to charge something that is a higher normal voltage than the AA that is running the jtc charger, because that would be very cool.
Unfortunately, I only have one loose 12v battery and it is always fully charged.
I guess it is time to find a bad battery and fix it with my joule thief, isn't it?

jeanna

Offline jeanna

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Re: Recharging Batteries using only voltage spikes. A Results Log Thread
« Reply #28 on: July 18, 2010, 05:03:34 AM »
Hi everybody,

Circumstances have pushed me to do this in a big way.
It was crazy this week.
I might have 3 bum chargers, or 12 bum batteries, or both . But lets see if the jtc can either condition or fix em.

I decided to recharge a pair ofAAA  batteries in an old led nite lite I made years ago.

The charger refused the batteries... :'(

I  pulled out the jtc battery charger that has appeared in this thread, added a new run battery and put both batteries into a 2 battery pack for 15 minutes.
Then the charger took the batteries and charged them in less than 20 minutes.
This is record time. It is a fast charger but this usually means 2  hours.

I had tried other batteries earlier when I couldn't get the first 2 into the charger and they wouldn't go either, and
to make a long story short...
I ended up using the jtc charger to condition a total of 8 batteries 4 AAA and 4AA, and they all ended up in the charger in record time and they look great right now.

Wow.


Now, for the 12v power pack.
In 2007 I bought a 12v xantex power pack on a wheely device. I actually bought 2 similar devices of different capacities.
1 with a 1500w inverter and one with a 350w inverter. I have used the smaller one several times to fill tires etc, but just small jobs and then I top off the battery and leave it to trickle charge.
Same for the big one, except I never used it. It still had tape covering the ac switch.

Well, last week the charger for the big one started to run, and instead of stopping after 10 minutes, it kept on, and I pulled the plug after 5 hours, The battery was at 9.05v    :'(  :'(

So, today I took the big one apart and found 3 parallel 12v batteries inside!
I undid the connectors and all 3 were in the 9v range, but the lowest one is the one I figure was bringing them all down, so I am now watching as the jtc charger is conditioning the 12v battery.

I'm crossing my fingers!

jeanna

There is another story with the 350w power pack, but I will save that for later.


Offline stevensrd1

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Re: Recharging Batteries using only voltage spikes. A Results Log Thread
« Reply #29 on: December 12, 2011, 01:25:18 AM »
Maybe its the voltage spikes from my experiment thats allowing me to recharge so many batteries using only 2 batteries. I called it the overunity pulse motor and posted a few threads in the news section. Essentially what I did was modify a motor by breaking off one of the three contacts on the motors rotor inside it. That makes it a pulse motor that pulses power on and off as it spins. So I made several experiments,,where I recharged 2 batteries with 2 batteries,,then recharged 3 batteries with 2 batteries,,then recharged 4 batteries with 2 batteries, and lastly my present running experiment is recharging 5 batteries with 2 batteries, also running the pulse motor at the same time, placed a few of the videos on youtube as well,,the links are in my postings in the news section of this site on the overunity pulse motor. But after reading here,,it may be that its voltage spikes that allow me to do this,,from the motor.

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Re: Recharging Batteries using only voltage spikes. A Results Log Thread
« Reply #29 on: December 12, 2011, 01:25:18 AM »

 

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