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Author Topic: Bruce's Discovery, Tesla's Missing Link for his Unipolar Generator!  (Read 157091 times)

Offline Bruce_TPU

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Hello Everyone,

The following idea is something I have been researching and considering for sometime, when the pieces fell together last night in my study time...

I have notorized and documented this idea, so if anyone attempts to steal it for personal gain, it will not work.  But experimentation is of course always welcome.

Please feel free to try to punch holes in the idea, improve the idea, test the idea, before I spend some serious money on it, as I intend to do, the moment I have completed testing my SSG3, even if said testing is successful.   ;)

I believe that Tesla found that by using his bifilar wound Pancake coil, he was able to make his Unipolor Dynamo to Self Run.

I see it as completely possible based on my research of both units, and the proper combining of the two of them as I believe I have discovered that they fit!   :o

Simple Setup:

Two axially magnatized disc magnets, in attraction, with a Tesla Pancake bifilar wound coil sandwiched between them.  An outer ring of copper would circle the outer circumference of said pancake coil, for a set of 6 brushes to remove current flow.  Inside center of coil would be run out to a second ring to remove current flow of opposing sign.

This unit would be partially levitated initially but full levitation for the future to limit ALL friction.  Input current would also be PULSED as seen in the Youtube video provided, to limit substantially the needed input power to bring rotation.

The second rendition would be a second bifilar pancake coil atop of the magnet that is on top of the first bifilar pancake coil.  As there are magnets above already, this would give a second complete output.  These could then continued to be stacked in future experiments.

On the first experiment, with steel plates on top of top magnet and bottom of bottom magnet, may or may not be needed.

Please let me know all of your thoughts, ideas and experiments.

Please no one say that the two rotating magnets, rotating with the coil will not produce power...  :D  They will, aka Faraday's Paradox, also we believe the magnetic fields do not see the magnets rotating....aka the earth, so Lorentz law of induction is indeed fulfilled as the field lines cut through the coil.  (usually a copper plate was used = Lenz, and had great inefficiencies.  Also a motor was used to turn it.  ;)  )

I also don't understand why no one using pulse motors with the tops of their rotor's doing nothing, don't use this principle.

Brushes are needed.
Should the magnets be coated in rubber, if they are conductive, otherwise, perhaps Lenz will show his head, or perhaps just the steel backings will work...

I desire to make a 3" Version, using N42, by 1/8" thick to start.  Sometimes less is more and I want to start off with a proof of design.

Pancake coil will be about 4" to 5".  I do not know what size wire to use and would like some ideas.  Typically these would be HV, but....Unipolar generator is typically low voltage, high amperage.

1.  Pulse for input is a must.
2.  Getting brushes right to avoid Lenz is a must.
3.  Discovering if magnets should be rubber coated is a must.
4.  Determining type of wire for pancake coil.  I am looking at Stranded, NOT Litz, based on Steven Mark's words about wires in a magnetic field and harvesting (collecting) current stream.
5.  Discovering how many coils can be pancaked, ie..magnet, coil, magnet, coil, magnet, coil, etc.

Please see all information below:Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmDOpSXq7G4&feature=related

Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homopolar_generator

Tesla Patent:  (differant incarnation, earlier vision)

406968
http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=MvdbAAAAEBAJ&dq=406968

Tesla Notes on Unipolar Dynamo:http://www.andrijar.com/teslahom/teslahom.pdf

Thank you ahead of time for your assistance with this future project,

Bruce

EDIT:  Page 9 below is not of patent but of Tesla's notes on his Unipolar Dynamo.  Sorry about the misname.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2010, 01:56:07 AM by Bruce_TPU »

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Offline infringer

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Re: Bruce's Discovery, Tesla's Missing Link for his Unipolar Generator!
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2010, 02:18:53 AM »
I was under the impression that the electric is only produced when the force of the magnet crosses perpendicular to the wire... So it would have to swing back and forth over the coil to generate electric from my understanding I could be wrong though I am not really sure weather I am 100% correct that is what I was told I never tried to see personally...

Easy test though get a round magnet with a hole in the center put it over a pancake wound coil then slap a screw or bolt through hole tighten it in the chuck of a your cordless drill slap it on fast speed and measure the output ... If need be use two drills with two magnets spin the one on top and you can get it as close as you need with the other one mounted on the surface....

I believe you should first attempt this and get some measurements before going all out and dropping a crap load of cash on an expensive rig of some sort!

Enjoy


Offline Bruce_TPU

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Re: Bruce's Discovery, Tesla's Missing Link for his Unipolar Generator!
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2010, 03:10:01 AM »
I was under the impression that the electric is only produced when the force of the magnet crosses perpendicular to the wire... So it would have to swing back and forth over the coil to generate electric from my understanding I could be wrong though I am not really sure weather I am 100% correct that is what I was told I never tried to see personally...

Easy test though get a round magnet with a hole in the center put it over a pancake wound coil then slap a screw or bolt through hole tighten it in the chuck of a your cordless drill slap it on fast speed and measure the output ... If need be use two drills with two magnets spin the one on top and you can get it as close as you need with the other one mounted on the surface....

I believe you should first attempt this and get some measurements before going all out and dropping a crap load of cash on an expensive rig of some sort!

Enjoy

I highlighted the part of your quote that is so.o.o important...  Your statement is true... and this is the beauty of this but can be difficult to wrap ones mind around...

If you have a stationary North magnet, and a stationary South magnet, with a gap between them, and you move a coil, pancake or otherwise between them, they produce an electron flow on the coil.

If you have a stationary coil, but have a N and S facing magnet for the sake of this thought experiment, that rotate around a stationary coil between the two, it will produce an electron flow on the coil.

Now, here is where the cool part comes in... If you take a north facing up magnet, put copper on top of it, and put a South facing down magnet on top of that copper, then to you an me all we see is a spinning magnet and copper sandwich, but to the "observer" (Einstein's theory of relativity) if you were nanoscopic (my word) and could visually see the magnetic flux between the magnets, that flux would not be moving, at all, but what you would see is a very nicely built pancake coil spinning at great speed! 

I know for a fact that this works with a copper disc, so why would it not work with a coil?  The North and South field lines are still cutting through the wire as the coil spins, or is this special to a copper disc only?  I would truly be amazed if it were.

Having said all of that, the drill is a very good idea, but to wind a pancake coil that small, and to make tiny brushes might be a pain...

Cheers,

Bruce

Offline Jimboot

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Re: Bruce's Discovery, Tesla's Missing Link for his Unipolar Generator!
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2010, 06:38:49 AM »
Aaahaaa now I understand why you suggested a pancake coil on my rotor. I did research on YT as suggested. As you know from my photos, I need more coil winding experience! Bloody interesting stuff tho.


Offline Airstriker

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Re: Bruce's Discovery, Tesla's Missing Link for his Unipolar Generator!
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2010, 02:10:51 PM »
If you are not familiar with unipolar generator you should read also this:

http://www.physics.umd.edu/lecdem/outreach/QOTW/arch11/q218unipolar.pdf

What you will find interesting there is the fact, that it works by just having a rotating magnet only. No copper disc needed. But still Lenz law applies. So I'm no really sure your idea with pancake coil will work. But give it a try if you like.

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Re: Bruce's Discovery, Tesla's Missing Link for his Unipolar Generator!
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2010, 02:10:51 PM »
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Offline Bruce_TPU

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Re: Bruce's Discovery, Tesla's Missing Link for his Unipolar Generator!
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2010, 04:33:22 AM »
If you are not familiar with unipolar generator you should read also this:

http://www.physics.umd.edu/lecdem/outreach/QOTW/arch11/q218unipolar.pdf

What you will find interesting there is the fact, that it works by just having a rotating magnet only. No copper disc needed. But still Lenz law applies. So I'm no really sure your idea with pancake coil will work. But give it a try if you like.

Hi Airstriker,

A very interesting PDF you posted!  It also confirms a conversation that I had with a friend, last night.  It was mentioned that if a bulb is attached to a copper plate (coil in my case) to rotate with said plate, it will not light!  It is in the wrong "time reference frame".  It will only produce a flow of electrons that are usable, if another "reference frame" (brushes, etc, not moving..) are drawing off the current stream.

I have been doing some thought experiments and think that perhaps "canceling" Lenz is not what Tesla was after with his unipolar generator, but rather, making Lenz law work in his favor... The more I think on this, the more likely it seems.

But how could he do this, one might ask.  Well, I really think I will find my experiments will bear out the following...That a Tesla pancake coil, laid in the proper direction, and spun (CCW) that the potential should travel from the inside to the outside following the spirals.  This Lenz production of magnetic fields could then actually "add" to the spin of the unipolar generator, perhaps, as crazy as it sounds to the point of self excitation.  (wouldn't that be a hoot!  LOL)

I found on page 10 of Tesla's Unipolar Generator Notes, an interesting passage that denotes the exact description as I gave above.  Tesla's words are now reinforcing this thought experiment.  (words pictured below)

On another note, I think that I have come up with three differant ideas for taking power off of the coil(s)  One way, I really like is a bit ingenious if I say so myself.  And one way is a bit old fashioned, but will work.  And the last way is not my own original idea, but is unique and would make an interesting experiment.  All Three pictured below.


Idea 3 is interesting because the bearings can be rotates as a homopolar generator also...and may add to the field?  Experimentation will tell, but just thought ideas for now to rough in my designs, and ideas.

Cheers,

Bruce


Offline Airstriker

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Re: Bruce's Discovery, Tesla's Missing Link for his Unipolar Generator!
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2010, 04:40:54 PM »
The idea 2 doesn't really make much sense as you will have the same potential on all of the brushes (all on top ring and all on lower ring) and you will end up only with additional friction because of the additional brushes.

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Re: Bruce's Discovery, Tesla's Missing Link for his Unipolar Generator!
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2010, 04:40:54 PM »
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Offline gravityblock

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Re: Bruce's Discovery, Tesla's Missing Link for his Unipolar Generator!
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2010, 12:46:54 AM »
The pancake coil or the division of the disc into spirals is only needed if the magnetic field of the magnets do not completely cover the entire disc.  In Tesla's own words on page A-23 of http://www.andrijar.com/teslahom/teslahom.pdf he says, "If the poles do not cover the disc completely on both sides, then, of course, unless the disc be properly subdivided, the machine will be very inefficient".

Look at figure 1, 2, and 3 while taking note how the poles of the magnets being illustrated do not cover the entire disc.  He's talking about Eddy currents here, because the poles aren't covering the entire disc between the rim and the axis.  If a copper disc is sandwiched between two axially magnetized magnets, and the copper disc is the same diameter of the magnets so the poles cover the entire disc, then the Eddy currents Tesla is referring to is no longer an issue and we don't need to worry about properly subdividing the disc or using a pancake coil.

He then, goes on and talks about how the Eddy currents could demagnetize the field.  We don't have this problem today, because our magnets are so much superior to the magnets of his day.  Also, to think that the Eddy currents could magnetize and re-enforce the field to self-excite the dynamo, especially after eliminating these Eddy currents, by subdividing the disc, using a pancake coil, or having the disc and magnets to be of the same diameter is total nonsense.

I do believe the HPG has OU properties, but we must eliminate the counter torque.  Increasing the radii of the disc and magnets will increase the output power to the 4th power while the input power only increases to the square thereof.  The problem is the counter torque also increases proportionally.  The Eddy currents is not the counter torque we need to overcome.  The counter torque we need to overcome is the HPG also acts as a HPM that works against the rotation of the system, which kills the OU properties.  Defeating Lenz is a must in any system.  There is an easy way to test this.  If it can run as a generator, but can't run as a motor.....then we have success.

GB

Offline Paul-R

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Re: Bruce's Discovery, Tesla's Missing Link for his Unipolar Generator!
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2010, 01:02:30 AM »
The idea 2 doesn't really make much sense as you will have the same potential on all of the brushes (all on top ring and all on lower ring) and you will end up only with additional friction because of the additional brushes.
I think the idea of multiple brushes is to share out the current
which can be exceptionally high, the voltage being very low.

Offline gravityblock

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Re: Bruce's Discovery, Tesla's Missing Link for his Unipolar Generator!
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2010, 01:13:03 AM »
I think the idea of multiple brushes is to share out the current
which can be exceptionally high, the voltage being very low.

Having multiple brushes will increase the current.  We don't won't this, since the system is already a low voltage, high current system due to it having a low resistance.  When you add brushes, then you are adding more paths for the current to flow, which will lower the resistance even further in the system.

In a pancake coil, you only need one brush around the entire rim and an additional brush for the axis.  The brush around the entire rim and axis will always provide a contact point for the pancake coil, but it must be looked at as only being one large brush instead of having multiple brushes (the ends of the pancake coil will only be making contact with the brush at only one specific point at any given time). 

There is only one path for the current to flow in a pancake coil.  In a solid disc, then adding additional brushes will add additional paths for the current to flow and will increase the current.

GB
« Last Edit: March 24, 2010, 03:50:05 AM by gravityblock »

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Re: Bruce's Discovery, Tesla's Missing Link for his Unipolar Generator!
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2010, 01:13:03 AM »
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Offline Bruce_TPU

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Re: Bruce's Discovery, Tesla's Missing Link for his Unipolar Generator!
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2010, 01:18:21 AM »
The idea 2 doesn't really make much sense as you will have the same potential on all of the brushes (all on top ring and all on lower ring) and you will end up only with additional friction because of the additional brushes.

Hi Airstriker,

Once again, I could not agree with you more.  But, for some reason, Tesla thought otherwise, as I have highlighted again in his notes.  I truly hope that the first idea will work just fine, as this is the easiest, with the least friction. 

Idea 3 with the bearing is interesting, because it allows the bearing balls to act as the brushes along the entire perimeter, like idea 2.  Again, not my favorite idea, but it must be experimented with (the idea of pulling from multiple locations, I have read even, 6 to 8 brushes) because of the words of Tesla.  (Please see below:)

From Tesla's Notes on the Unipolar Gyro:
"Considered as a dynamo machine, the disc is an equally interesting object of
study. In addition to its peculiarity of giving currents of one direction without the employment of commutating devices, such a machine differs from ordinary dynamos in that there is no reaction between armature and field. The armature current tends to set up a magnetization at right angles to that of the field current, but since the current is taken off uniformly from all points of the periphery, and since, to he exalt, the external circuit may also be arranged perfectly symmetrical to the field magnet, no reaction can occur. This, however, is true only as long as the magnets are weakly energized, for when the magnets are more or less saturated, both magnetizations at right angles seemingly interfere with each other.

For the above reason alone it would appear that the output of such a
machine; should, for the same weight, be much greater than that of any other
machine in which the armature current tends to demagnetize the field. The
extraordinary output of the Forbes unipolar dynamo and the experience of the writer confirm this view.

Again, the facility with which such a machine may be made to excite itself is
striking, but this may be due – besides to the absence of armature reaction – to the defect smoothness of the current and non-existence of self-induction."

AND

"A Forbes dynamo may, for instance, be excited in such a manner. In the experience
of the writer it has been found that instead of taking the current from two such discs
by sliding contacts, as usual, a flexible conducting belt may be employed to
advantage. The discs are in such case provided with large flanges, affording a very
great contact surface. The belt should be made to beat on the flanges with spring
pressure to take up the expansion. Several machines with belt contact were
constructed by the writer two years ago, and worked satisfactorily; but for want of
time the work in that direction has been temporarily suspended. A number of
features, pointed out above have also been used by the writer in connection with
some types of alternating current motors."

Nikola Tesla, 1896

Available on: http://www.andrijar.com/physics.htm


@ ALL
What I have begun to do, is to study the design and engineering of professional tops.  Some can spin up to 15 minutes. (Quirk Top) The part of my idea that I am sure of so far, is that I want as much "spin down" time as possible.  And will be testing differant configurations to achieve this.  My thinking is as follows...if I can achieve a very long spin time, due to inertia and momentum, design, center of gravity, center of mass, etc.. Then the time between pulses, needed to keep my "Relativistic Unipolar Generator" will be extended, minimizing input power.  My unit will hereby be known as the BRUG, standing for Bruce's Relativistic Unipolar Generator.   ;D  A mouthful, so it will be called the BRUG Device for short.

I have already started in on this process.

Cheers,

Bruce

Offline gravityblock

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Re: Bruce's Discovery, Tesla's Missing Link for his Unipolar Generator!
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2010, 01:56:36 AM »
@Bruce:

I believe pulsing the HPG is the way to go as you mentioned.  Spin it up to it's maximum RPM.  Extract the current for 10ms without any input power, then stop drawing current.  When not drawing current, then provide input power until you reach maximum RPM again.  If the mathematics is correct, then you should have more power output during the 10ms than the input power required to reach maximum RPM again.  This would be a good test.  Magnetic bearings would be a plus.  A spin down time with very good conventional bearings at 300 RPM's would be 2 or 3 minutes at the most, while with magnetic bearings would be 20 -30 minutes as shown by Clanzer.  Conventional bearings create a much higher drag on the rotor than most realize and is probably essential in order to have any chance of OU in a rotary system.

I hope you don't put too much effort into Tesla's pancake idea.  If you understand his reasoning behind using the pancake coil or subdividing the disc into spirals due to the Eddy currents, then you will understand it's not necessary in our modernized age, and the same can be accomplished by ensuring the disc and magnets are of the same diameter.  In his day, the pancake coil or subdividing the disc into spirals were probably necessary in order to reduce the Eddy currents.....but reducing these Eddy currents isn't going to self-excite the system.

In regards to the "Forbs Dynamo", it says, "Several machines with belt contact were constructed by the writer two years ago, and worked satisfactorily; but for want of time the work in that direction has been temporarily suspended."

Working satisfactorily doesn't mean it was a self-exciting Dynamo.  Do you really believe if it was a self-exciting Dynamo, that the work in that direction would have been temporarily suspended due to want of time?  The work had already been suspended for two years at the time of Tesla's writing.  That doesn't sound temporary to me and the work in that direction was probably abandoned due to it not being efficient or able to self-excite itself.

GB


Offline gravityblock

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Re: Bruce's Discovery, Tesla's Missing Link for his Unipolar Generator!
« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2010, 03:05:58 AM »
Hi Airstriker,

Once again, I could not agree with you more.  But, for some reason, Tesla thought otherwise, as I have highlighted again in his notes.  I truly hope that the first idea will work just fine, as this is the easiest, with the least friction. 

From Tesla's Notes on the Unipolar Gyro:
"Considered as a dynamo machine, the disc is an equally interesting object of
study. In addition to its peculiarity of giving currents of one direction without the employment of commutating devices, such a machine differs from ordinary dynamos in that there is no reaction between armature and field. The armature current tends to set up a magnetization at right angles to that of the field current, but since the current is taken off uniformly from all points of the periphery, and since, to he exalt, the external circuit may also be arranged perfectly symmetrical to the field magnet, no reaction can occur. This, however, is true only as long as the magnets are weakly energized, for when the magnets are more or less saturated, both magnetizations at right angles seemingly interfere with each other.

Bruce

Tesla is wrong about there not being any reaction between the armature and the field.  It is this reaction that provides a torque to make a HPM work, and in a HPG this reaction provides a counter torque against the rotation of the system.   If the magnets are weakly magnetized, then the power output and counter torque will drop proportionally.

GB

Offline Bruce_TPU

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Re: Bruce's Discovery, Tesla's Missing Link for his Unipolar Generator!
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2010, 04:02:53 AM »
Hi GB,

Pulsing my BRUG is the way that I will for sure be going.  I had a wind down tonight of a "mini brug", using a penny between the magnets to simulate the coil. 

I am not looking for the eddy currents to excite my brug, (lol...that sounds bad  :D) but I am looking for the current to flow from the inside to the outside perimeter of my pancake coil and hoping that it's magnetic field will reinforce the field.

Talk is cheap and I like to experiment.  I never believe something will not work, until I have tried it...thoroughly. 

Is Tesla wrong... Build something and find out.  I do not argue physics. I build and experiment based on my understanding. Can that understanding change?  Of course.

For instance tonight, I took two small magnets on a nail.  spun it up nice.  Placed a penny between them and could only get it to spin once.  Bigger batteries, nothing.  But you are correct about needing greater magnetism.  I then added one additional magnet to the top and one to the bottom.  It spun up real nice.  I then spun it up with a 9 volt... when it started to speed up, it made the most beautiful spark show on the negative on the bottom one could imagine.  Spun up so fast, that it took 3 minutes to spin down.  And somehow, my penny is now slightly warped upwards. 

I have only just begun.  Magnetic bearings are an idea, so also is levitation.  My personal favorite.  So also is the "top" method with friction limited to one point.  I'm going to build and test and see what works best.  Not as easy to spin up copper in this manner as one thinks...but it can be done!   ;)

Cheers,

Bruce


Offline gravityblock

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Re: Bruce's Discovery, Tesla's Missing Link for his Unipolar Generator!
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2010, 06:36:29 AM »
It was mentioned that if a bulb is attached to a copper plate (coil in my case) to rotate with said plate, it will not light!  It is in the wrong "time reference frame".  It will only produce a flow of electrons that are usable, if another "reference frame" (brushes, etc, not moving..) are drawing off the current stream.

Bruce

I agree with this, but it may only be partially correct.  Experiments show that there is an EMF and the charges have been separated and pointing in a particular direction, but the voltage/current isn't able to be brought out of the system in a rotating frame due to no return path.  In other words, there is a static electric field (the external circuit is just part of the disc when they are both rotating together, and the electric field of both will be pointing in the same direction and will cancel each other's EMF, either at the rim or the axis, according to the direction of the magnetic field and the direction of rotation).

Take a single axle rotating CW which is represented by a broken line as shown below, while everything is rotating together, and the two discs are electrically connected at the rims and the axis's.  Pay careful attention to the orientation of the magnetic field for each disc,
 
===N/S/disc/N/S======S/N/disc/S/N===

The electric field of the left disc will be pointing in the opposite direction as the electric field of the right disc (This has already been proven experimentally).  The axis of the left disc will have an opposite polarity than the axis of the right disc.  Likewise, the rim of the left disc will have an opposite polarity than the rim of the right disc.  As you can see, the EMF of each disc will not be canceled, and should provide a net voltage either in the rotating frame or in a stationary frame by extracting the current from the discs with slip rings on the axis of each disc (the greatest potential will now be between the axis of each disc due to this setup). 

One of the discs will behave as an external circuit.  The external circuit must have an opposite EMF as the disc.  Relative motion between the disc and the external circuit is the normal way to accomplish this.  There may be another way to accomplish this, by having one of the discs to move through an opposite magnetic field as I previously described. I would love to be proven wrong on this

It won't work with one disc.  There must be two discs and the two sets of magnets must have enough distance between them so they don't interfere with each other, and each disc must be moving through an opposite field.

I will list some quick and indisputable facts about the HPG that is already been proven through experimentation.

1)  Changing the direction of rotation will change the polarity of the voltage (yes, the current can flow from the rim to the axis, just like it can flow from the axis to the rim).
2)  Changing the direction of the magnetic field or poles will change the polarity of the voltage.
3)  A disc, magnet, and external circuit all rotating together will have a static electric field, but voltage and current isn't able to be taken off the disc (no net voltage due to the EMF of the external circuit canceling the EMF of the disc, or vice versa).
4)  Increasing the radii of the discs and magnets will increase the voltage.
5)  Higher strength magnets will increase the voltage.
6)  Higher RPM's will increase the voltage.

GB
 
« Last Edit: March 24, 2010, 07:24:03 AM by gravityblock »

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Re: Bruce's Discovery, Tesla's Missing Link for his Unipolar Generator!
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2010, 06:36:29 AM »

 

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