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Author Topic: Theoretical efficiency of electrolysis  (Read 20122 times)

Offline Farlander

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Theoretical efficiency of electrolysis
« on: February 21, 2010, 06:09:41 AM »
Well, I see not much has changed since I last logged on about a year ago.  The site looks much worse, but otherwise the same bullcrap is still flying around.

Please see the wikipedia article containing this quote:
"The amount of electrical energy that must be added [in electrolysis] equals the change in free energy of the reaction plus the losses in the system. The losses can (in theory) be arbitrarily close to zero, so the maximum thermodynamic efficiency equals the enthalpy change divided by the free energy change of the reaction. In most cases, the electric input is larger than the enthalpy change of the reaction, so some energy is released in the form of heat. In some cases, for instance, in the electrolysis of steam into hydrogen and oxygen at high temperature, the opposite is true. Heat is absorbed from the surroundings, and the heating value of the produced hydrogen is higher than the electric input."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysis

This seems to state that overunity energy production could be obtained by electrolyzing water under heat and pressure, such as in an engine perhaps?  Could the process be self sustaining?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline onthecuttingedge2005

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Re: Theoretical efficiency of electrolysis
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2010, 06:15:36 AM »
lets just say the key to all this is not perpetual energy but the key to all this is 'Stored' energy.

Offline haithar

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Re: Theoretical efficiency of electrolysis
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2010, 12:09:28 PM »
1As = 1C will make 0.19cm³ gas total at 100% efficiency. Source: http://www.chemieonline.de/forum/showpost.php?%20p=263191&postcount=14

The energy needed for that is depending on your voltage, 1,23V is the absolute minimum but depending on the material it's probably around 2V. That would be 2V * 1As = 2 Joule for 0.19 cm³ at 100% efficiency.

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Theoretical efficiency of electrolysis
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2010, 07:39:09 AM »
Well, I see not much has changed since I last logged on about a year ago.  The site looks much worse, but otherwise the same bullcrap is still flying around.

Please see the wikipedia article containing this quote:
"The amount of electrical energy that must be added [in A] equals the change in free energy of the reaction plus the losses in the system. The losses can (in theory) be arbitrarily close to zero, so the A thermodynamic efficiency equals the enthalpy change divided by the free energy change of the reaction. In most cases, the electric input is larger than the enthalpy change of the reaction, so some energy is released in the form of heat. In some cases, for instance, in the electrolysis of steam into hydrogen and oxygen at high temperature, the opposite is true. Heat is absorbed from the surroundings, and the heating value of the produced hydrogen is higher than the electric input."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysis

This seems to state that overunity energy production could be obtained by electrolyzing water under heat and pressure, such as in an engine perhaps?  Could the process be self sustaining?
Conventional electrolysis have poor efficiency. However, using clean water, and boost the voltage in a high resistant water, will finally reach a chatastrophic breakdown of the water molecules. As the voltage rises, nothing happens, but at a given voltage, all that voltage turns into pure current as the watermolecules breaks down and produce great amount of HHO. This process can be repeated at a given frequency, and was the main key why Stan Myers invention worked so well back in the 80s. Many readers of Mayers findings have been confused by his claims about resonant frequencies, but this was just a misguide to confuse people, and cover the truth about his inventon - to protect it. In that particulat circuit there is a blocking diode which will prevent resonance, but it will help charging the "capacitor", which the fuelcell is, to a high voltage almost without applying current as it charges.

PS! The laws of thermodynamics are not violated even if it seems there is more energy out that in.

Offline stevie1001

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Re: Theoretical efficiency of electrolysis
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2010, 10:20:20 PM »
Conventional A have poor efficiency. However, using clean water, and boost the voltage in a high resistant water, will finally reach a chatastrophic breakdown of the water molecules. As the voltage rises, nothing happens, but at a given voltage, all that voltage turns into pure current as the watermolecules breaks down and produce great amount of HHO. This process can be repeated at a given frequency, and was the main key why Stan Myers invention worked so well back in the 80s. Many readers of Mayers findings have been confused by his claims about resonant frequencies, but this was just a misguide to confuse people, and cover the truth about his inventon - to protect it. In that particulat circuit there is a blocking diode which will prevent resonance, but it will help charging the "capacitor", which the fuelcell is, to a high voltage almost without applying current as it charges.

PS! The laws of thermodynamics are not violated even if it seems there is more energy out that in.

Sorry for this possible rude awakening, but your story is based on what Peter Lindemann is saying on youtube.
However, Peter came back on that one.
He couldn't replicate his own words.
So, that theory is blown to pieces.
No massive volts to amps......

Steve



Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Theoretical efficiency of electrolysis
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2010, 10:20:20 PM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: Theoretical efficiency of electrolysis
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2010, 04:04:10 PM »
Sorry for this possible rude awakening, but your story is based on what Peter Lindemann is saying on youtube.
However, Peter came back on that one.
He couldn't replicate his own words.
So, that theory is blown to pieces.
No massive volts to amps......

Steve
That is correct. I was watching his presentation recently, and it all did sound good, but I now know it is possible to produce HHO with regular clean water with relatively low voltage. My recent test is done with  range of 10 - 40V and all produce hydrogen and oxygen.

Vidar

Offline billmehess

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Re: Theoretical efficiency of electrolysis
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2010, 07:55:06 AM »
That is correct. I was watching his presentation recently, and it all did sound good, but I now know it is possible to produce HHO with regular clean water with relatively low voltage. My recent test is done with  range of 10 - 40V and all produce hydrogen and oxygen.

Vidar
I am curious what is the least amount of voltage and amps necessary to produce hydrogen and oxygen.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Theoretical efficiency of electrolysis
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2010, 07:55:06 AM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: Theoretical efficiency of electrolysis
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2010, 10:08:18 AM »
Hi Folks,

Have you read on Prof Kanarev electrolyzis? Here is a Microsoft Word doc file on it:
http://www.guns.connect.fi/innoplaza/energy/story/Kanarev/articles/ELECTROLYSIS%20OF%20WATER.zip

and the video:
http://www.guns.connect.fi/innoplaza/energy/story/Kanarev/video/VIDEOELECTROLYS.wmv

Some more from him:
http://www.guns.connect.fi/innoplaza/energy/story/Kanarev/water/index.html

I managed to convert the Word doc file into a PDF file and uploaded to the Downloads section:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=387 

rgds,  Gyula

Offline gauschor

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Re: Theoretical efficiency of electrolysis
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2010, 01:21:03 PM »
Hmmm.... do you think it would be possible to do electrolysis with a wimshurst? There was once a rumour that electrolysis works best with high voltage, low amperage and pulsed DC... so that would all be produced by such a device. Well, never tried it out though...

Offline mscoffman

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Re: Theoretical efficiency of electrolysis
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2010, 07:12:33 PM »
Hmmm.... do you think it would be possible to do electrolysis with a wimshurst? There was once a rumour that electrolysis works best with high voltage, low amperage and pulsed DC... so that would all be produced by such a device. Well, never tried it out though...

@gauschor;

There is link to a video showing a Meyer's set-up.
Be prepared to stop the video at 1:03 (of 2:52)
ignore the audio, and just look at the diagram;

http://pesn.com/2010/05/14/9501652_Water-for-Fuel_tech_among_Pepsi_Refresh_contestants/

Comment: Yes, I think you are correct, please refer to the diagram
at time 1:04 in the above video. Ok, you have a standard
(3-phase rectified) Automotive Alternator (without battery charge
regulator). When the belt drive motor spins the rotor this it enables
the primary DC power 400-1600watts to the electrolyser. This supplies
the bulk of the primary power. Next you notice that he modulates the
field coil (rotor in this case) of the alternator with a pulse generator.
This converts the alternator into sort of a magnetic amplifier that
modulates the DC power with pulses. This is the phonon injector.
But here comes the unique part. The belt drive from the motor to
the alternator functions as a high voltage static electric generator
injector like a Van De Graf generator and High Voltage flows (leaks)
from the alternator across the link into the electrolyser. This high
voltage aligns the cavitation bubble collapse in the electrolyser. So
you get some overunity because of the static electric power itself
but much more when you use the high voltage to augment CF cold
fusion in the electrolyser through alignment of the cavitation
bubbles...So there you have it...You can do all these circuit things
in different ways, but unless you have all three in one circuit you
won't get the good stuff.

Conclusions:
Stan Meyer himself may have not been aware what was actually
occurring. It appears that the dune buggy has nothing to do with
the much vaunted electrolyser resonance.
 
:S:MarkSCoffman

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Theoretical efficiency of electrolysis
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2010, 07:12:33 PM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: Theoretical efficiency of electrolysis
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2010, 09:52:49 PM »
I am curious what is the least amount of voltage and amps necessary to produce hydrogen and oxygen.
You will produce HHO as soon as the voltage is more than 0V. My tapwater have a volt/amp ratio of approx 1/20 - which means 1 ampére for each 20V supplied. At 10V I measure 0.5 amps. I am currently using 36V, and the electric current is now 1.8A. That is about 65W. The generator gets quite hot after an  hour, but it seams it stops heating at about 50 degrees Celsius - which is reached after an hour or so.

The Volt/Ampére ratio depends on the water and the shape and distance of the electrodes. In my case I use stainless steel-wires wound on a plexiglass holder (Bought on ebay).

I have a pair of 1200W class D audio amplifiers which I want to test with square pulses upp to 80V. I can also bridge them to achieve about 160V. That should give about 1200W HHO generator at 8 amps ;D

Vidar

Offline billmehess

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Re: Theoretical efficiency of electrolysis
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2010, 03:53:03 AM »
I put together 4 water batteries using 4ea 32" long 3"  diameter pvc tubes. Each tube had a 3/4 diameter copper rod 32" long and a 3/4 "diameter zink coated rod also 32" in length.  I coated the rod with a dielectric material to prevent the zink coating from being "flacked off" due to the electrolysis effect.
Each tube generates around .8 volts at around 2.5 ma. each. I connected them in series and got 3.2 volts of course still at 2.5 ma.
My electrolyzer is using stainless steel wire with the cathode and anode about 1/2" away from each other.
I am using baking soda in the ectrolyzer with plain tap water. When "turned on" the voltage drops to around 2.56 volts within about 8 hrs but then stablizes at this voltage.
If I change the water about twice a week the process is repeated. I have been running this now for over a month. So 2.56 volts at 2.5 ma will produce H continously. Adding additional copper tube increase the current to increase the H being produced.
The foot print of the 4 tubes is 50 in sq.
Since they are only 32 " tall a like stack above them would generate twice the H with the same foot print.

Obviously this is very scalable.

Offline mscoffman

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Re: Theoretical efficiency of electrolysis
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2010, 05:24:40 PM »
@billmehess;

That water battery has enough power to run a Jt JouleTheif.
It would be interesting to step up the voltage that you are
running to run the electrolyser as pulses. Also you should think
about using standard NaOH - Lye or KOH - Potassium Hydroxide
as the electrolyte. I'd be concerned that carbon in the baking
soda might start to build up after a while and short things out.
Using a manufactured plate electrolyser would not be out of
the question.

I've also done some design thinking about using some available
inexpensive Bernolli pumps and lawn watering timers to drain
and refill the water battery automatically. The water batteries
could be set up to be overfill proof. And the water could be
set up to drain somewhat uphill for a device installed in a
basement. I think all electronic water timers use a battery
or solar cell to keep their electronics running. That would make
sense to support that power from an additional water cell or
two. They probably all use water pressure to activate their
valves.

:MarkSCoffman

Offline billmehess

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Re: Theoretical efficiency of electrolysis
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2010, 10:41:31 PM »
Thank you Mark on your input. The H production is interesting but it has (as is so often the case) lead to something else using the same technology. I took a 1" diameter copper tube about 10" high and placed a 9"  galvanized bolt down it's center. The footprint is very small as the copper tube is in a 1.25" pvc pipe sealed at the bottom. Each one of these produces .75 v. at .35 ma. I have hooked up a matrix of 25 of these 5 x 5 which
produces 3.75 volts at around 2 ma. I have connected this to a very efficient LED what will run and in about an hour drop to 2.55 volts and then continue to drop very slowly.
The light from the LED is sufficient to read by as it produces a light "circle" on a page approx.10" in diameter. The footprint of this unit is only 8x8.Think of it as a battery with 25 water cells inside of it.  I am going to make 3 more of these to be able to light 4 LEDs.
at one time.
20% of the world does not have electricity. This would provide a power source to provide light for 1-2 hours. The footprint for all four is only 256 in sq. or less than 2 sq. feet.
And it only takes water to run it. The galvanized rod I am using has been running now for almost 7 weeks with no sign of degregation at all.

Offline mscoffman

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Re: Theoretical efficiency of electrolysis
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2010, 11:20:28 PM »
@billmehess;

Then, you really need to use JT JouleThief technology. It can cut the power
drain from Leds way down by pulsing the current at relatively high voltage.
Resulting in much better utilization of potential Led brightness without having
to max out DC power drain. Recently Jeanna posted the historical best of the
best Jt circuit. And user Circuitmall also said he had an unpublished hydrogen
electrolyser Jt circuit. By carefully optimizing circuits, mainly the transistor
type and toroid core and number of winding turns one may be surprised at
what could be accomplished. I think having continuous LED lighting for a
week or maybe two is not out of the question.
 
I like the water battery because one has to start somewhere and having
something that can clean itself out automatically while materially lasting
a long time and not being too threading seems like the way to go. There
should be some sort of plastic cell covers to keep dust and debris out of
the cells fo rhte long haul.

:S:MarkSCoffman

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Theoretical efficiency of electrolysis
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2010, 11:20:28 PM »

 

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