Post by: hartiberlin on February 17, 2010, 07:39:32 AM
here is a video of my new test cell with
graphite paper and alufoil generating up to
1.92 Volts.
It can drive drirectly a red LED.
Here is the first video of a few more I already made,
but must still edit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vk9ImDLeOrE
Youtube is still working on the HD version to render and convert,
so come back later to see it in HD.
Regards, Stefan.
Post by: Pirate88179 on February 17, 2010, 07:54:54 AM
Nice video. How long will this effect last do you think?
Nice work.
Bill
Post by: hartiberlin on February 17, 2010, 02:33:15 PM
as long as the Alufoil will last.
You just need to change the Alufoil from time to time.
The graphite paper is not consumed.
If you build it this way, that the layers of alufoil and graphite paper are closer, it will also have more current and can be used to drive a Joule Thief.
Regards, Stefan.
Post by: ResinRat2 on February 17, 2010, 03:48:23 PM
This kind of reminds me of a regular 12 volt battery, except you are using caustic as the electrolyte.
This does give off hydrogen gas constantly though, and you won't be able to stop that until the aluminum is completely oxidized and consumed.
Post by: onthecuttingedge2005 on February 17, 2010, 05:22:04 PM
Hi,
here is a video of my new test cell with
graphite paper and alufoil generating up to
1.92 Volts.
It can drive drirectly a red LED.
Here is the first video of a few more I already made,
but must still edit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vk9ImDLeOrE
Youtube is still working on the HD version to render and convert,
so come back later to see it in HD.
Regards, Stefan.
Hi Stefan.
have you tried using two different forms of carbon as a battery, 1. Graphite, 2. Charcoal, add an electrolyte and see if a Galvanic reaction takes place?
Jerry
Post by: hartiberlin on February 17, 2010, 06:18:25 PM
it seems to depend on how concentrated the NaOH is inside the water.
If you make it not too concentrated then the Alufoil will
not consume so fast.
I have to experiment more with the concentrations.
Also it seemed, when the NaOH concentration was too high,
the voltage dropped and Hydrogen gas bubbles formed on the alufoil.
Post by: hartiberlin on February 17, 2010, 06:21:56 PM
normally you need 2 dissimular metals to get a voltage
potential between the electrodes.
But charcoal is not a good conductor.
YOu will probably get about 01. to 0.2 Volts from
graphite versus charcoal, but the current output is very weak.
The current output in my cell could be boosted
via a Stainless steel mesh put inside the graphite-acrylic
mix.
This was also done in the Zinc Air battery and helped to get the
huge output. Then the inner resistance of the graphite electrode
will not be KiloOhms , but Ohms and then you will
get much higher currents.
This I will also try next.
Regards, Stefan.
Post by: hartiberlin on February 17, 2010, 06:25:42 PM
here are the 4 other videos I made yeasterday.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbANg9E5EnI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxxiyUA7JwM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45a7fZUsNyY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWKG_6QPLsA
All now also in 720p HD available.
Enjoy !
Regards, Stefan.
Post by: hartiberlin on February 20, 2010, 02:22:40 AM
Pottassium Permanganat ( KMnO4) and the acrylic binder and put this onto
stainless steel mesh and onto another mesh, an Aluminium wire mesh.
It is still drying and tommorow I will do my first tests with it.
Stay tuned.
Regards, Stefan.
Post by: hartiberlin on February 21, 2010, 10:01:58 PM
See the attached pics.
Will do the experiment tommorow, when I have daylight.
Regards, Stefan.
Post by: ResinRat2 on February 22, 2010, 01:29:56 AM
Mmmmmmmm... Looks yummy!!
Thanks for posting the pics.
RR2
Post by: hartiberlin on February 24, 2010, 02:20:09 AM
I did the experiments today, but to put the KMnO4 into the graphite-binder mix
was not a good idea.
The voltage was lower.
The best setup was still again with the KMnO4 inside the NaOH-water solution.
The current with the graphite-mix on the
Stainless steel was in shortcircuit mode over 100 milliAmps,
so the Stainless steel mesh carrier really brings much more current.
But it also works alone just with a Stainless steel mesh, but then the current
is only about half, as if you still put conductive graphite on there.
Also copper as as the second electrode (instead of the ss-mesh-graphite) works also pretty good
and generates a lot of current.
I will post all of my about 10 videos I made today during the next few days, when
I have edited them.
I also want to try a few other experiments with it.
Regards, Stefan.
Post by: Rapadura on March 01, 2010, 04:02:39 PM
Only the aluminium foil is consumed? How long the aluminium foil can last before we need to replace it? How much costs a aluminium foil?
Post by: derwood on March 03, 2010, 03:26:32 AM
Post by: hartiberlin on March 04, 2010, 04:19:59 AM
to encode and upload the videos.
Will hopefully still do this this night, at least a few.
Yes, only the alu foil is consumed, if you do it right
with the right electrolyte mix, so as Alufoil is cheap
and available in every supermarket you can get build yourself great
batteries for emergencies to power a few LED in series.
I would go with putting all the cells in series to get higher voltage
and also put all LEDs in series, so you only consume low milliamps.
This way, batteries last longer, if you only draw low milliamps
currents and not amps !
Bleach batteries are also great for higher amps, but the bleach stinks
a lot and is dangerous to your health and the alufoil is probably used up
much faster...
Regards, Stefan.
Post by: Rapadura on March 04, 2010, 04:33:57 AM
Post by: hartiberlin on March 06, 2010, 02:10:10 PM
caught up..
but now here are some of the new videos.
http://www.youtube.com/user/overunitydotcom
The rest still needs to be cutted and encoded.
Please subscribe, rate and post a few comments on the Youtube
comments also.
Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.
Post by: Harvey on March 06, 2010, 11:21:29 PM
Cheers!
8)
Post by: ResinRat2 on March 07, 2010, 03:09:44 AM
I like the overunity.com logo you had on your videos.
Thanks for posting your work on this.
RR2
Post by: hartiberlin on March 14, 2010, 05:48:51 PM
yes, this will be my new logo for the site.
I still need to draw it up much clearer and integrate it into
the new design I will soon have.
Well, regarding the waste products,
there will be mainly Aluminiumhydroxid produced, which just could
be flushed in the toilet
and I still have to make a few experiments regarding the KMnO4.
Also I will have to see, if I can make this a reversible experiment,
where the ALufoil can be recycled, but as it is so cheap and you can get it inside
every supermarket, this can be "recharged" pretty fast, by just using new
alufoil.
Also I see this mainly more relevant for selfmade emergency batteries,
which you can make at home, when there is a power outage.
So you need only some "drano" sink cleaner ( has got the NaOH in it)
something like this:
http://www.drano.com/clogged-kitchen-drain/default.aspx
(or some other cheaper brand that just only has NaOH in it)
some alufoil and some selfmade Graphite electrodes with stainless steel
mesh inside and some water.
Hope this helps.
Regards, Stefan.
Post by: FreeEnergy on March 22, 2010, 05:52:04 PM
Post by: hartiberlin on March 24, 2010, 06:53:11 AM
http://patentpending.blogs.com/patent_pending_blog/2004/10/the_baghdad_bat.html
used iron and copper.
The usage of the alufoil-graphite cell is that the
graphite electrode will not be used up and only
the cheap alufoil will be used up, which could be replaced easily.
I will working further on this to get 1 Watt LEDs to power with it
constantly.
Regards, Stefan.
Post by: the badger on March 24, 2010, 09:43:03 PM
Post by: hartiberlin on March 24, 2010, 10:34:10 PM
are mostly from zinc metal I believe and not from Aluminium.
Which brands in Germany are from Aluminium ?
As I don´t drink any beer nor any Cola I dont know
much about the different beer cans... ;)
Post by: ResinRat2 on March 25, 2010, 03:11:04 AM
What do you think about using your invention to charge batteries, or perhaps even a Cap? That way it would probably give a more even voltage output for further use; and you would waste less of the energy produced as well.
Also, since you really can't turn off the reaction, it might be a way to just run it and store the energy.
Thanks again for posting your progress.
RR2
Post by: hartiberlin on March 25, 2010, 11:32:39 PM
just an energy generator and charge up a battery via a joule
thief or simular pulsing circuit.
Also please have a look at what Henrique Sousa
is doing.
He is also building great ALuminium air cells:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUQ90Wn2B5M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKXz2Pjedks
http://www.youtube.com/user/hjesu
Regards, Stefan.
Post by: hartiberlin on March 25, 2010, 11:48:22 PM
http://inerte.horabsurda.org/?p=1738>lang=en
Lithium batteries are not good for the environment !
Aluminium would be better !
Regards, Stefan.
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 26, 2010, 06:37:54 AM
Thanks.
Bill
Post by: amigo on March 29, 2010, 12:29:52 AM
I hope you aren't cooking food on that stove, after making those experiments. ;)
Joke aside, so you made a primary battery, what's the big deal?
People have been doing this 100 years ago as it has been a main source of portable (and other) EMF, beside the mains (DC and AC). Actually, there had been many more primary battery designs, some better than this one that produce much more current.
As a side note, you might want to short-circuit your cell for 12-24hrs after it's made, to bring it to the full current potential.
If you want a higher current cell, look up the Gethins and/or the Hussey bluestone cells. They give out around 1V but 1-5A output, in standard sizes.
Just my 2c.
Post by: hartiberlin on March 29, 2010, 06:06:27 PM
do you mean this paper ?
http://www.archive.org/stream/voltaiccellitsc01benjgoog
Or please post links to the other cell you mentioned.
Well, I am not claiming to produce anything very new,
but I just want to find a cheap solution how to do
an emergency battery at home or a cheap battery
selfmade battery, that can be used with Joule Thief circuits
for lighting purposes and uses only very cheap resources
like a bit of alufoil from the supermarket and can power
pretty long your LEDs.
Also it can be tested, if it will
be reachargeable when using superabsorbers
for the electrolyte and use reverse current to charge up
the cell.
There are still many things to try out to enhance the
functions of these cells and their power output.
Regards, Stefan.
Post by: amigo on March 30, 2010, 03:42:22 AM
I'm not Plengo by the way. :)
Check this link, though it might have some pages missing:
http://books.google.com/books?id=xFp0fA6uIT8C&lpg=PP1&dq=induction%20coils%20how%20to%20make%20them&pg=PA178#v=onepage&q=&f=false
Post by: hartiberlin on April 08, 2010, 03:31:05 AM
which I recorded already late last month , but now have
been cutted and uploaded.
http://www.youtube.com/user/overunitydotcom
Post by: fritz on April 14, 2010, 11:01:35 PM
Nice Cell.
BTW: I would use some more serious meter for your measurements.
Especially on videos.
I own the same thing - but would deny ownership if somebody asks ;-))
There is no indication of low battery - and in that case it will display almost anything...
rgds.
Post by: hartiberlin on April 15, 2010, 12:32:07 AM
I verified the voltages with a second analog meter.
Will try to scale this all up soon to more power output.
Regards, Stefan.
Post by: budden on May 27, 2010, 12:55:59 PM
Quote
have you tried using two different forms of carbon as a battery, 1. Graphite, 2. Charcoal, add an electrolyte and see if a Galvanic reaction takes place?One can produce electricity from Fe and C, NaOH _melt_ is an electrolyte. Temperature is above 400C. Air should be supplied with a nozzle into NaOH melt with added MgO and H2O vapour. C and NaOH are consumed. Total reactions are:
C+O2=CO2
2NaOH+CO2=Na2CO3+H2O, second reaction seem to be much slower, but it kills element in a time. Some researchers say they could prevent this.
See www.sara.com, http://www.rexresearch.com/jacques/jacques.htm , search Direct Coal Fuel Cell on the net.
This is not an overunity device. It is just a fuel cell with an efficiency of 30-60%. But this seem to be the simpliest fuel cell which was ever invented.
It was invented in 1896 by William Jacques, US patent 555511 (visit patent office to find patent).
I'm undertaking experiments with the kind of fuel cell for a time. For now, I'm pretty sure it really does work, but I still failed to achieve sufficient power density. My power density is about 8W/l, element life is 3-4 hours, while Jacques and SARA state they have achieved 30W/l with element life of hunrdeds hours.
Post by: stephenafreter on July 03, 2010, 09:18:25 AM
I just discovered this thread ! It's here that I should post about alu-graphite batteries !
Thanks Stephan, and congratulations for your discovery of this powerful combination !
Post by: stephenafreter on July 03, 2010, 09:45:05 AM
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=396 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=396)
It's using graphite pencils and added graphite powder for a very high output.
It has a comparative and careful study of several electrolyte mixes !
Results are impressive, but I don't know what they use as binding material for the powder ?!
I tried several products, but they lower the conductivity of the electrode.
Graphite pencils have a resistance around 10 to 20 Ohms, while the binded powder is at 20 k Ohms !
Any suggestion about the glue they use in this document ?
Post by: stephenafreter on July 03, 2010, 09:50:08 AM
The power output being good and the alu cheap, that would be an important alternative for lighting shack in poor area !
To stop the process during the day, we can have the electrolyte removed, like this for example:
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 03, 2010, 09:58:52 AM
Note: These are the same materials I have been using on my earth battery, or EER, for the past 2 years.
Jeanna has been doing some great work using an electrolyte that keeps the degradation of the magnesium to a minimum.
Anyway, this is a great area of study and I enjoy seeing what folks are working with and their results.
Bill
Post by: stephenafreter on July 03, 2010, 10:14:41 AM
Thanks for your comments.
My problem is to find magnesium in shack areas, because this ribbon is really not available everywhere.
Of course for use as safety battery, then we can stock some magnesium ribbon.
Advantage of aluminum is that it's everywhere in this world, being old cola can or cooking foil.
It's the same cost for 75 feet of magnesium ribbon than 25 meter square of aluminum foil.
But the main thing is that aluminum is available everywhere, so people can build this battery model by themselves, or at least recharge them by their own, just coiling a piece of foil or a can.
I saw on the excellent chart you linked http://www.thelenchannel.com/1galv.php (http://www.thelenchannel.com/1galv.php) that there was not much difference between alu and magnesium, 0.67V, at least they are both of high value and in the top of the chart.
But for a DIY battery for township area, I will focus on aluminum-graphite. Pencils and foil/can.
Post by: stephenafreter on July 03, 2010, 10:45:06 AM
According to Wikipedia, 1 mol of table salt NaCl is 58.4g
1 mol of sodium hydroxide NaOH is 40g.
2 electrolyte are cited as good ones in the doc, both use 1 mol of salt (58.4g), and one has 0.5 mol (20g) of NaOH page 31, while the other only 0.1 mol of NaOH (4g) page 42. Make your own choice ...
NaOH is widely used as soap/detergent/bleach. Cost is less than 2 USD per kilo in many countries. You can find it in food market for cleaning, textile manufacture for whitening, ... And also in supermarket as drain opener, and for agriculture/gardening purpose.
Sorry if you feel that I hijack the thread, but that data might be useful as reference for new comers, and because I feel this battery concept is worth the investigation.
The main problem is the graphite electrode, as we want large surface area for less material. With good conductivity. The Hong Kong student added some powder to their graphite pencils and got better current output, I wonder what glue they used for such good results ??
Post by: stephenafreter on July 03, 2010, 11:02:46 AM
Post by: hartiberlin on July 04, 2010, 12:31:51 AM
you can use an acryllic binder which is used for painter´s purposes
as the binder.
It has the advantage, that it is waterproof !
So when it has hardened, it is not soluable anymore in water ( electrolyte)
I am using it for my experiments and it is great.
But you can also try out black carbon copy paper.
It is only the surface area of the graphite that counts,
so it does not depend how thick the material is,
so thin sheets of black lampblack imprinted carbon copy
paper should also work great.
Lampblack is one of the best conductive graphite powders.
So use this, it is cheap and can also be got from the painter´s shop.
@Pirate,
yes, Magnesium is the best and powerful
metal for the other electrode, but it is pretty expensive and you can
not get it everywhere, so I prefer to see, how to best build
alufoil-graphite-paper cells with good output power and longer lasting.
As alufoil could be got in every supermarket and it is cheap, it is the ideal
cheap electrode material.
Regards, Stefan.
Post by: hartiberlin on July 04, 2010, 12:37:51 AM
but cement as the binder does not work well with the graphite or
lampblack.
It does not get hard very well and when it is
dry again after hardened the resistance of this cement-graphite electrode is very high and not useable
for batteries.
I also tried to mix in sand, but this does not help to get it hardended and shatterproof.
It crumbles pretty easily, so in my experience it is not usable and the high resistance
is bad.
Regards, Stefan.
Post by: hartiberlin on July 04, 2010, 01:15:33 AM
Quote from: stephenafreter link=topic=8782.msg247636#msg247636 =1278143105
Mk1 posted a very interesting document on graphite-alu battery on the "Working Air Battery"
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=396 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=396)
Many thanks for this very good document.
It also contains the experiment with a selfbuild Fuel Cell that runs on Alcohol.
They found out that using ethanol alcohol produced the best electrical output.
So that is very interesting.
As ethanol is the drinking alcohol it can be produced very easily in good quantities.
As this one cell produced already 85 Milliwatts this could be probably scaled up
with a bigger surface stack of these cells to a KiloWatts easily.
The only problem is to find cheaper electrodes for it.
So if you need power, then you go to your supermarket and buy a bottle
of 40 % Vodka or in your pharmacy or drug store and get isopropyl alcohol
and you have power again.
Would be interesting, how long these cells lasts, if you only feed them in ethanol
all the time.
Does one have to refuel also the NaOH again or does this work
more like a catalyst ?
Post by: hartiberlin on July 05, 2010, 07:12:21 PM
of acrylic binder like this:
http://www.gerstaecker.de/GERSTAECKER%20Acrylbinder-bindemittel-zubehor.htm
or something like this:
http://www.artmaxxberlin.de/html/artmaxx-acryl-pigment-binder.html
For the Lampblack I have been using Guardi colors,
see here:
http://www.boesner.com/boesner/servlet/frontend/articleDetail.html?btUid=bt_Article&iDf_id=c0a81c5:f243d1:fe6ba05c4f:-1971&iDf_locale=de_DE&iDf_recordDeleted=0&iDf_relayClientId=1
You need to choose the color selector and the choose Lampenruß which mean Lampblack.
Hope this helps.
Regards, Stefan.
Post by: hartiberlin on July 05, 2010, 07:19:45 PM
and they also have lampblack.
But I don´t find a picture of it right now, but it comes in the same bottles.
Hope this helps.
Regards, Stefan.
Post by: Pirate88179 on July 06, 2010, 09:19:52 AM
So would that be pure, or almost pure, fine carbon powder? Or are there binders and other stuff in there as well? Powdered graphite found in hardware stores to lubricate locks is pretty pure as far as I know. And cheap as well.
It is easy to make lampblack like Edison did for his experiments. He just put a piece of metal over a candle and took the powder that gathered there. This might be a bit time consuming to get a decent quantity but, you could have several candles and plates going at the same time. Just a thought. This would be something almost everyone in the world could do without special materials or suppliers. (Like those of my graphite powder for locks) Candles are pretty readily accessible all over the world.
Bill
Post by: stephenafreter on July 06, 2010, 10:26:49 AM
But for third world power supply I am very worried to imagine thousands or more people throwing daily their aluminium oxide/hydroxide in the environment !!
For example if I bring the concept to the Mekong delta, where people have no light in their houses, it would be a cheap solution, but they would throw the electrolyte in the nature ...
I was thinking of the millions of people living in house boats in Vietnam and Cambodia, among the poorest people I have seen in Asia.
Post by: hartiberlin on July 06, 2010, 03:46:58 PM
yes, you can get it from candles.
But you really have to check the resistance of the powder.
Mine bought from the painter´s brand "guardi"
has a resistance of around 30 to 50 Ohms when you put a
Ohmmeter directly into the powder and have the probe tips
around 2 to 5 millimeters away from each other.
This is a very good nice low value and if you
try it with other graphite powder, just let me know,
which one has the lowest electrical resistance.
We need to find the best carbon based powder, that has
the lowest electrical resistance.
Charcoal is very very poor in electrical resitance and
my guardi lampblack had the lowest resistance I have found so far,
so I use this one.
My bought real graphite powder , which I bought from
Ebay had more resistance and was more expensive.
To generate your own lampblack from burning candles
it would be preferred to really heat the black powder then really
hot, as only a really hot temperature will
produce conductive lampblack, lower temperature will
NOT make the lampblack conductive, so you really need hot flames !
Another good conductive graphite type is:
Russverkollerung or Rebenscharz.
See:
http://www.schmincke.de/fileadmin/downloads/Farbkarten_Pigmente2.pdf
and scroll down to productnumber 18 722 :
Rußverkollerung
nearly pure amorphous carbon
of vegetable origin
This is more thick and weights more than their lampblack,
but has a slightly
lower electrical conduction.
I have not tested yet their real Graphit,
which is also listed there as product number 18720
Hope this helps.
Regards, Stefan.
Stefan:
So would that be pure, or almost pure, fine carbon powder? Or are there binders and other stuff in there as well? Powdered graphite found in hardware stores to lubricate locks is pretty pure as far as I know. And cheap as well.
It is easy to make lampblack like Edison did for his experiments. He just put a piece of metal over a candle and took the powder that gathered there. This might be a bit time consuming to get a decent quantity but, you could have several candles and plates going at the same time. Just a thought. This would be something almost everyone in the world could do without special materials or suppliers. (Like those of my graphite powder for locks) Candles are pretty readily accessible all over the world.
Bill
Post by: hartiberlin on July 06, 2010, 03:51:10 PM
Well, after reflexion I think it's a good solution for emergency .
But for third world power supply I am very worried to imagine thousands or more people throwing daily their aluminium oxide/hydroxide in the environment !!
Well using cheap solar cells you can reacharge during the daylight the graphitepaper-alufoil
cells several times and thus prolong the livecycle of the alufoil.
So less alufoil is needed.
But you are surely right, that the aluminium-oxid-hydroxid is probably
dumped into the rivers and I have to research how dangerous and toxic
this it.
Regards, Stefan.
Post by: hartiberlin on July 06, 2010, 03:54:56 PM
lampblack powder
with an HHO flame to red hot glowing, if this
will enhance the electrical conductivity of the lampblack ?
If anybody could test this please I would be very happy
to know the result.
Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.
Post by: hartiberlin on July 06, 2010, 04:01:04 PM
is a water-K2CO3 mix electrolyte.
It is less corrosive to the Alufoil and will probably produce as a waste
something like this:
"8Al2O3 x 3CO2 x 4H2O" (basisches Aluminiumcarbonat)
Source: 1C.Langlois (Ann. Chim. Phys.(3) 48 (1856) 505; Lieb. Ann. 100 (1856) 375)
How dangerous this is to the environment I still have to research.
Post by: hartiberlin on July 06, 2010, 04:17:02 PM
looking at this:
http://www.lenntech.de/pse/wasser/aluminium/aluminium-und-wasser.htm
It depends which PH-value the river water has and if the PH-Value
is about 5.0 to 5.5, so a bit acid,
then it can affect fish breathing, so yes, this could impact the fishes
in the river, but only if the PH value of the water is at that value.
Post by: stephenafreter on July 06, 2010, 08:26:12 PM
Thanks for searching deeply.
I understand that you are more looking for a rechargeable battery, and that's a good idea !!
Aluminium is much lighter than lead ;D
Of course we can't use NaOH in a rechargeable configuration, it would eat the aluminium.
Post by: stephenafreter on July 08, 2010, 10:24:07 AM
A quick update on my aluminium battery.
I put two silver electrodes with 2 pieces of aluminium foil in water with salt and NaOH to see what it does. So it's 2 cells in series.
This first trial gives less power than 1 silver/magnesium ribbon cell.
So I have many things to modify after this first trial.
I want to reproduce the experiment by the Hong Kong student in the file given by Mk1.
NaOH is eating the aluminium slowly, hydrogen bubbles evolve in the liquid.
After just a few minutes the light goes down, and if I shake a bit the cells, light comes back for a few seconds. I am really far from the results in the Hong Kong experiment ;D
I will keep you informed. I am waiting for graphite pencils to make electrodes as in the pdf.
Now I am using a bifilar from a Bedini setup to make a more efficient Joule Thief. I still don't have a toroid.
Post by: hartiberlin on July 08, 2010, 03:01:28 PM
good experiments.
Well, does anyone have an idea how to
best press graphite powder directly onto stainlesss steel mesh ?
What press could I use to do this easily ?
I would need to press about 10 x 10 cm area
graphite powder directly onto a stainlesss steel mesh,
that is also around 10 x 10 cm big in surface area.
This way using no binder, you will have the best and lowest resistance
and the stainless steel mesh will push up the amps from your battery
and lower the electrode resistance.
So I need to find a good solution to this,
so that I could do this at home with some easy
obtainable tools.
I would need to have about 1 mm height below and above
the stainless steel mesh of pressed graphite powder ( Lampblack for instance).
Any good ideas to do this ?
Maybe also just 2 x 50 cm size will work, so I would only
need a pressing width of 2 cm ? ( and then do several compression pressing steps to
achive the 50 cm length ? 2 cm x 50 cm would also be 100 square cm )
Of course it depends how good the graphite will stay on the stainless steel
mesh after several usages and does not come loose from it, when you wash
the electrodes after several usage cycles.. so maybe the acryllic binder
method is stll the preferred method for longer usage cycles ?
Regards, Stefan.
Post by: stephenafreter on July 08, 2010, 05:04:54 PM
I read on wikipedia that they use to bake the graphite/clay mix to make the pencils.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pencil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pencil)
Extracts:
- Most pencil cores are made of graphite mixed with a clay binder.
- Residual graphite from a pencil stick is not poisonous, and graphite is harmless if consumed.
- mixing powdered graphite with clay and forming the mixture into rods that were then fired in a kiln. By varying the ratio of graphite to clay, the hardness of the graphite rod could also be varied.
I thought they were just pressing the powder into forms, but it needs to be fired to get the best material ... making things more difficult.
Post by: hartiberlin on July 08, 2010, 09:47:40 PM
it might be good for pencils,
but as the clay is nonconductive, it will have more ohmical resistance probably.
Maybe you can measure the ohmical resistance with these pencils and let us know ?
Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.
Post by: stephenafreter on July 09, 2010, 01:21:21 PM
Resistance on my graphite pencils are around 20 Ohms.
While the best I could get with graphite powder + binder, was around 10 to 15 kilo Ohms !
That's 1,000 folds the resistance of the industrial pencils (those that are baked with clay).
Hope this helps.
Post by: donkrueger on April 14, 2011, 10:25:54 PM
Don :D http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPTcQJPbGHw
Post by: hartiberlin on February 25, 2012, 11:12:41 PM
Stefan your work sounds cool. I an't see the videos because of the YT flap, but I found another link on YT for Stanford University that has some cool work similar to yours. Here's the link if you want to take a look. ou can paste it into the search bar on YT.
Don :D http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPTcQJPbGHw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPTcQJPbGHw)
Yes, not bad, but my lampblack-Acryl-Binder-Alufoil battery with a water-K2CO3 electrolyte has the advantage, that it does not need
any dangerous lithium and only the alufoil is consumed and the lampblack ( graphite-paper ) electrode is not consumed and can be reused
several times and is really cheap to be selfmade !
I don´t need nanocarbon... I can even do my own very conductive graphite from normal coal briquetts by using
red glowing coal briquetts and putting them out in a metallic box, so the inner not yet burned coal has been converted to
highly conductive graphite powder. ( The black powder below the ash layer...!)
It is very simple.
Regards, Stefan.
Post by: hartiberlin on February 25, 2012, 11:22:24 PM
I just did the day before yeasterday a few introduction experiments and now today the rest of the series,
cause I wanted to see, how good also magnesium alloy rods like AZ1X and AZ61A and finally again a Durafix Zamak Alloy rod
would work with the
K2CO3 - water electrolyte.
These alloy rods were a failure as you can see in the videos. Murphy´s law allways hits first ! ;)
But then I finally repeated the alufoil- K2CO3-water lampblack-Acrylbinder-paper cell and it was a huge success
with only about 2 cm^2 area I got 1.6 Volts open circuit voltage and over 20 mA short circuit current !
Well have a look for yourself here at my newest videos ! These are 32 parts all in all... so you need a bit time to watch it all and they are still uploading,
cause they are in huge HD resolution.
Enjoy !
http://www.youtube.com/user/overunitydotcom/videos (http://www.youtube.com/user/overunitydotcom/videos)
Regards, Stefan.
Post by: b_rads on February 28, 2012, 05:24:15 PM
Wow, alot of catching up to do. You have been a very busy fellow. Your work is very impressive and cannot wait to give it a go. Curious, have you tried zinc yet? Thank you for all the nice things you have said on my videos. Time to start reviewing what you have done - going to be busy it appears.
:)
Brad
Post by: hartiberlin on March 07, 2012, 01:50:10 AM
No I haven´t tried Zinc yet. to hard to get for the normal user...
I still need to get me some Zinc metal to test it out with it instead of Alufoil.
The next thing I will do soon is videotaping the making of a big graphite paper electrode and run
an incandescent bulb with it with Aluminium foil and K2CO3 electrolyte.
I still need to get me some Zinc metal.
But then I wll further try better to use some oxides like
TiO2 and ZnO to make only some graphite cells that would hopefully put out also
power without anything corroding at all.
Maybe we can get a cell to work without any pute metal at all which will
just convert the background radiation or just the
infrared radiation to electrical power.
Surely it must be possible with the right material to tap into this background radiation
and make cells that do not corrode and will convert this radiation on 24/7 daily basis.
Probably these cells will not be so powerfull, but if they are cheap to make it is only a question to scale
the used surface area up and thus get more power. If they will only use lampblack, paper and a bit Acryl Binder
and cheap TiO2 and ZnO, these will be dirt cheap to make and they will be easy to be selfmade without high
cost equipment. Then stacked these will probably totally replace any solar cell installations, cause they will work 24/7/365.
Regards, Stefan.
Post by: broli on March 10, 2012, 10:16:51 AM
http://idv.sinica.edu.tw/lanceli/electrochemical%20exfoliation%20%28H2SO4%29.mov
Perhaps using this nano material can enhance the voltage/current of your battery.
Post by: IotaYodi on March 10, 2012, 01:50:07 PM
http://www.unitednuclear.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=16_17_69
http://unitednuclear.com/
Post by: PhiChaser on March 10, 2012, 06:53:52 PM
You can find zinc strips for killing moss in the garden department at your local hardware store. They also make a zinc (may be zinc oxide?) paint which may work well if sprayed onto paper? You could use the other side for something else??
Happy experimenting,
PC
Post by: hartiberlin on March 11, 2012, 04:52:38 PM
In my graphene research I found this process to make small graphene sheets out of graphite using a simple electrochemical process. Here's a video of it:
http://idv.sinica.edu.tw/lanceli/electrochemical%20exfoliation%20%28H2SO4%29.mov (http://idv.sinica.edu.tw/lanceli/electrochemical%20exfoliation%20%28H2SO4%29.mov)
Perhaps using this nano material can enhance the voltage/current of your battery.
Many thanks for this video.
Are you sure that this decomposed Graphite sheet was then graphene ?
How strong was the H2SO4 acid solution ? What percentage ?
What was used as the other electrode ?
How much graphene to graphite ratio did you get out of the powder when filtrated out ?
How much more conductive is graphene then ?
Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.
Post by: hartiberlin on March 11, 2012, 05:00:22 PM
Well, does anybody have an idea, how to get a very thin coppersulfide or iron pyrtite ( iron-sulfide) layer
onto the graphite paper electrode ?
If there would be any easy method via electroplating or via a solution to
get a thin layer of these materials onto the graphite paper layer we might just get an easy solar cell.
As coppersulfide and iron-sulfide are semiconductors we might get a good bandgap and thus a PN layer
for converting sunlight directly to electricity.
As iron poyrite is also conductive we would NOT need an additional layer to collect the current!
So just oine electrode would be graphite paper and the other electrode would be iron pyrite ( iron-sulfide).
The question now is, how to bring a nanometer thick layer of this iron pyrite onto the graphite paper cheaply...
Any ideas ?
Regards, Stefan.
Post by: broli on March 11, 2012, 06:28:33 PM
Many thanks for this video.
Are you sure that this decomposed Graphite sheet was then graphene ?
How strong was the H2SO4 acid solution ? What percentage ?
What was used as the other electrode ?
How much graphene to graphite ratio did you get out of the powder when filtrated out ?
How much more conductive is graphene then ?
Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.
This is not my work but that of a chinese research group doing nano technolgy research. You can find the experiment fully described in their paper here:
http://idv.sinica.edu.tw/lanceli/Paper%20PDF/High-Quality%20Thin%20Graphene%20Films%20from%20Fast%20Electrochemical%20Exfoliation.pdf
But I'll try to answer your questions as well.
Are you sure that this decomposed Graphite sheet was then graphene ?
Yes I'm sure, that's what the research was aimed for.
How strong was the H2SO4 acid solution ? What percentage ?
This is what the paper says: 4.8g of 98% H2SO4 diluted in 100mL of deionized (DI) water
What was used as the other electrode ?
"A Pt wire was chosen as a grounded electrode."
How much graphene to graphite ratio did you get out of the powder when filtrated out ?
I believe most of the electrode that exfoliated are thin graphene sheets.
How much more conductive is graphene then ?
No idea in this case.
Post by: PhiChaser on March 11, 2012, 10:49:27 PM
Now that I look at my dwindling supply, I think I need to order some more. The last batch I got was from dragonplate.com which has been good to me in the past.
Happy experimenting,
PC
Post by: Cherryman on March 12, 2012, 10:24:34 AM
http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/48889 (http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/48889)
http://arxiv.org/abs/1203.0161 (http://arxiv.org/abs/1203.0161)
Post by: Curious_Celt on June 09, 2013, 03:40:41 AM
As it happens, I made one of these graphite/paper/aluminium foil cells a few nights ago, just to see if I could, and because my brother lives off-grid and wanted me to show him how to make a water/alkali battery, as a back-up to the humungus pile of lead-acid forklift batteries that he currently uses for power.
I have been medically retired for the last 25 years with multiple sclerosis, and my hands don't work so good. However, I succeeded after about three hours, and with a half tea-spoon of caustic soda in a 3/4 pint of water my cell was almost immediately wacking out 1.8VDC at 5.5mA. The cell produced enough energy to light an LED from a defunct solar garden light for about five minutes, which I have to admit, really impressed me, as those LEDs don't even switch on much below 2V.
As a way to while away the time, brilliant. But then later I worked out the cost of making my cell. Came out at £18.59 (including a modest £5/hour labour cost). It would be cheaper for me to go to Morrisons and buy a pack of their AA cells, because I would get six for a quid!
But, at least I now know how to make one if the world ended tomorrow.
On a practical note - has anybody tried using carbon/graphite rods larger than ordinary pencil leads, such as leads from carpenters pencils or carbon arc welding rods, or maybe the recycled carbon rods from dud D cells. The one thing I found with making these really small cells was that the pencil leads are really fragile, and for clumsy sods like me, something thicker would serve two purposes. 1 - the carbon/graphite would not break so easily (which is why it took me three hours), and 2 - the surface area of the carbon/graphite would be greatly increased, thereby giving an increase in current.
I did some measurements and found that for the three pencil leads I used, the total surface area was 33 sq. cm, giving a total electrode area of approximately 66 sq cm. Power density worked at about 0.3 watts per sq cm, which I though was quite good for a rough-made cell. And of course these cells have an advantage over commercial cells. They are recyclable. Just replace the aluminium when it is too corroded, and refresh the electrolyte. Hope I haven't bored too many of you with this...
Post by: neazoi on September 12, 2013, 11:04:56 AM
I had not seen this thread until today. My experiment was based on the galvanic tables I have seen on the net. I had also the same thoughts as some of the people in this thread, as far as concern the good and bad electrodes, as well as the easiness of finding them.
My goal:
"Making a battery instead of buying one has only sense if it can be made quick, cheap and easily, and this includes the reusability and the cost of parts"
I will post a picture as long as I get back home, but the preliminary results are these:
I used a graphite square rod, taken out of these artists sketch sets, instead of scrapping the fradgile graphite out of a pencil. These sets cost about 2Euros and they contain about 16 rods, of different hardness. The one I have tried marked with an "H". There are others marked with HH, BH etc, which I will try. These represent the hardness of the rod, because sketch artists want rods with different hardnesses. I have not yet measures the resistance of the rod, I will do so.
For the other electrode I used a sheet of aluminum (I thought also that magnesium would be best, but only aluminum is widely available to the consumer). Since aluminum will eventually get consumed, I would like to try cheap aluminum foil as well.
Ok the results. I have tried the battery with a joule thief I have made here http://qrp.gr/energy-harvesting
The LED shines brightly, more brigtly than my previous aluminum/copper/vinegar-salt battery, and it also lasted all night. This morning I slightly tapped my hand on the graphite electrode and then the led continued to lights brightly again. I had not time to watch it more, so I will make some tests today too.
Post by: neazoi on September 12, 2013, 12:18:20 PM
This maybe explains why the fellow that has used magnesuim, does not get so high energy like aluminum...