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Author Topic: Graphite-Paper - Aluminium-Foil galvanic cell with 1.7 to 1.92 Volts  (Read 81623 times)

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Graphite-Paper - Aluminium-Foil galvanic cell with 1.7 to 1.92 Volts
« Reply #45 on: July 05, 2010, 07:12:21 PM »
As the binder material for the lampblack you can use some kind
of acrylic binder like this:

http://www.gerstaecker.de/GERSTAECKER%20Acrylbinder-bindemittel-zubehor.htm

or something like this:

http://www.artmaxxberlin.de/html/artmaxx-acryl-pigment-binder.html


For the Lampblack I have been using Guardi colors,
see here:

http://www.boesner.com/boesner/servlet/frontend/articleDetail.html?btUid=bt_Article&iDf_id=c0a81c5:f243d1:fe6ba05c4f:-1971&iDf_locale=de_DE&iDf_recordDeleted=0&iDf_relayClientId=1

You need to choose the color selector and the choose Lampenruß which mean Lampblack.

Hope this helps.

Regards, Stefan.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Graphite-Paper - Aluminium-Foil galvanic cell with 1.7 to 1.92 Volts
« Reply #46 on: July 05, 2010, 07:19:45 PM »
Here is a picture of these painter pigments
and they also have lampblack.
But I don´t find a picture of it right now, but it comes in the same bottles.


Hope this helps.

Regards, Stefan.


Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Graphite-Paper - Aluminium-Foil galvanic cell with 1.7 to 1.92 Volts
« Reply #47 on: July 06, 2010, 09:19:52 AM »
Stefan:

So would that be pure, or almost pure, fine carbon powder?  Or are there binders and other stuff in there as well?  Powdered graphite found in hardware stores to lubricate locks is pretty pure as far as I know.  And cheap as well.

It is easy to make lampblack like Edison did for his experiments.  He just put a piece of metal over a candle and took the powder that gathered there.  This might be a bit time consuming to get a decent quantity but, you could have several candles and plates going at the same time.  Just a thought.  This would be something almost everyone in the world could do without special materials or suppliers. (Like those of my graphite powder for locks) Candles are pretty readily accessible all over the world.

Bill

Offline stephenafreter

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Re: Graphite-Paper - Aluminium-Foil galvanic cell with 1.7 to 1.92 Volts
« Reply #48 on: July 06, 2010, 10:26:49 AM »
Well, after reflexion I think it's a good solution for emergency purpose.

But for third world power supply I am very worried to imagine thousands or more people throwing daily their aluminium oxide/hydroxide in the environment !!

For example if I bring the concept to the Mekong delta, where people have no light in their houses, it would be a cheap solution, but they would throw the electrolyte in the nature ...
I was thinking of the millions of people living in house boats in Vietnam and Cambodia, among the poorest people I have seen in Asia.


Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Graphite-Paper - Aluminium-Foil galvanic cell with 1.7 to 1.92 Volts
« Reply #49 on: July 06, 2010, 03:46:58 PM »
Hi Bill,
yes, you can get it from candles.
But you really have to check the resistance of the powder.

Mine bought from the painter´s brand "guardi"
has a resistance of around 30 to 50 Ohms when you put a
Ohmmeter directly into the powder and have the probe tips
around 2 to 5 millimeters away from each other.

This is a very good nice low value and if you
try it with other graphite powder, just let me know,
which one has the lowest electrical resistance.

We need to find the best carbon based powder, that has
the lowest electrical resistance.

Charcoal is very very poor in electrical resitance and
my guardi lampblack had the lowest resistance I have found so far,
so I use this one.

My bought real graphite powder , which I bought from
Ebay had more resistance and was more expensive.

To generate your own lampblack from burning candles
it would be preferred to really heat the black powder then really
hot, as only a really hot temperature will
produce conductive lampblack, lower temperature will
NOT make the lampblack conductive, so you really need hot flames !

Another good conductive graphite type is:
Russverkollerung or Rebenscharz.

See:

http://www.schmincke.de/fileadmin/downloads/Farbkarten_Pigmente2.pdf

and scroll down to productnumber 18 722 :

Rußverkollerung
nearly pure amorphous carbon
of vegetable origin

This is more thick and weights more than their lampblack,
but has a slightly
lower electrical conduction.

I have not tested yet their real Graphit,
which is also listed there as product number 18720

Hope this helps.

Regards, Stefan.


Stefan:

So would that be pure, or almost pure, fine carbon powder?  Or are there binders and other stuff in there as well?  Powdered graphite found in hardware stores to lubricate locks is pretty pure as far as I know.  And cheap as well.

It is easy to make lampblack like Edison did for his experiments.  He just put a piece of metal over a candle and took the powder that gathered there.  This might be a bit time consuming to get a decent quantity but, you could have several candles and plates going at the same time.  Just a thought.  This would be something almost everyone in the world could do without special materials or suppliers. (Like those of my graphite powder for locks) Candles are pretty readily accessible all over the world.

Bill

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Graphite-Paper - Aluminium-Foil galvanic cell with 1.7 to 1.92 Volts
« Reply #49 on: July 06, 2010, 03:46:58 PM »
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Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Graphite-Paper - Aluminium-Foil galvanic cell with 1.7 to 1.92 Volts
« Reply #50 on: July 06, 2010, 03:51:10 PM »
Well, after reflexion I think it's a good solution for emergency .

But for third world power supply I am very worried to imagine thousands or more people throwing daily their aluminium oxide/hydroxide in the environment !!


Well using cheap solar cells you can reacharge during the daylight the graphitepaper-alufoil
cells several times and thus prolong the livecycle of the alufoil.
So less alufoil is needed.
But you are surely right, that the aluminium-oxid-hydroxid is probably
dumped into the rivers and I have to research how dangerous and toxic
this it.
Regards, Stefan.

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Graphite-Paper - Aluminium-Foil galvanic cell with 1.7 to 1.92 Volts
« Reply #51 on: July 06, 2010, 03:54:56 PM »
P.S: It would be interesting to see, if we heat
lampblack powder
with an HHO flame to red hot glowing, if this
will enhance the electrical conductivity of the lampblack ?

If anybody could test this please I would be very happy
to know the result.

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Graphite-Paper - Aluminium-Foil galvanic cell with 1.7 to 1.92 Volts
« Reply #51 on: July 06, 2010, 03:54:56 PM »
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Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Graphite-Paper - Aluminium-Foil galvanic cell with 1.7 to 1.92 Volts
« Reply #52 on: July 06, 2010, 04:01:04 PM »
P.S: Still better than a NaOH and NaCl mix electrolyte
is a water-K2CO3 mix electrolyte.

It is less corrosive to the Alufoil and will probably produce as a waste
something like this:

"8Al2O3 x 3CO2 x 4H2O" (basisches Aluminiumcarbonat)

Source: 1C.Langlois (Ann. Chim. Phys.(3) 48 (1856) 505; Lieb. Ann. 100 (1856) 375)

How dangerous this is to the environment I still have to research.

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Graphite-Paper - Aluminium-Foil galvanic cell with 1.7 to 1.92 Volts
« Reply #53 on: July 06, 2010, 04:17:02 PM »
Well ,
looking at this:
http://www.lenntech.de/pse/wasser/aluminium/aluminium-und-wasser.htm

It depends which PH-value the river water has and if the PH-Value
is about 5.0 to 5.5, so a bit acid,
then it can affect fish breathing, so yes, this could impact the fishes
in the river, but only if the PH value of the water is at that value.

Offline stephenafreter

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Re: Graphite-Paper - Aluminium-Foil galvanic cell with 1.7 to 1.92 Volts
« Reply #54 on: July 06, 2010, 08:26:12 PM »
Hi Stephan,
Thanks for searching deeply.
I understand that you are more looking for a rechargeable battery, and that's a good idea !!
Aluminium is much lighter than lead  ;D
Of course we can't use NaOH in a rechargeable configuration, it would eat the aluminium.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Graphite-Paper - Aluminium-Foil galvanic cell with 1.7 to 1.92 Volts
« Reply #54 on: July 06, 2010, 08:26:12 PM »
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Offline stephenafreter

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Re: Graphite-Paper - Aluminium-Foil galvanic cell with 1.7 to 1.92 Volts
« Reply #55 on: July 08, 2010, 10:24:07 AM »
Hello,
A quick update on my aluminium battery.
I put two silver electrodes with 2 pieces of aluminium foil in water with salt and NaOH to see what it does. So it's 2 cells in series.
This first trial gives less power than 1 silver/magnesium ribbon cell.
So I have many things to modify after this first trial.
I want to reproduce the experiment by the Hong Kong student in the file given by Mk1.
NaOH is eating the aluminium slowly, hydrogen bubbles evolve in the liquid.
After just a few minutes the light goes down, and if I shake a bit the cells, light comes back for a few seconds. I am really far from the results in the Hong Kong experiment  ;D
I will keep you informed. I am waiting for graphite pencils to make electrodes as in the pdf.
Now I am using a bifilar from a Bedini setup to make a more efficient Joule Thief. I still don't have a toroid.

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Graphite-Paper - Aluminium-Foil galvanic cell with 1.7 to 1.92 Volts
« Reply #56 on: July 08, 2010, 03:01:28 PM »
Hi Stephen,
good experiments.

Well, does anyone have an idea how to
best press graphite powder directly onto stainlesss steel mesh ?

What press could I use to do this easily ?

I would need to press about 10 x 10 cm area
graphite powder directly onto a stainlesss steel mesh,
that is also around 10 x 10 cm big in surface area.

This way using no binder, you will have the best and lowest resistance
and the stainless steel mesh will push up the amps from your battery
and lower the electrode resistance.

So I need to find a good solution to this,
so that I could do this at home with some easy
obtainable tools.
I would need to have about 1 mm height below and above
the stainless steel mesh of pressed graphite powder ( Lampblack for instance).

Any good ideas to do this ?
Maybe also just 2 x 50 cm size will work, so I would only
need a pressing width of 2 cm ? ( and then do several compression pressing steps to
achive the 50 cm length ? 2 cm x 50 cm would also be 100 square cm )

Of course it depends how good the graphite will stay on the stainless steel
mesh after several usages and does not come loose from it, when you wash
the electrodes after several usage cycles.. so maybe the acryllic binder
method is stll the preferred method for longer usage cycles ?


Regards, Stefan.


Offline stephenafreter

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Re: Graphite-Paper - Aluminium-Foil galvanic cell with 1.7 to 1.92 Volts
« Reply #57 on: July 08, 2010, 05:04:54 PM »
Hello Stefan,
I read on wikipedia that they use to bake the graphite/clay mix to make the pencils.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pencil
Extracts:
- Most pencil cores are made of graphite mixed with a clay binder.
- Residual graphite from a pencil stick is not poisonous, and graphite is harmless if consumed.
- mixing powdered graphite with clay and forming the mixture into rods that were then fired in a kiln. By varying the ratio of graphite to clay, the hardness of the graphite rod could also be varied.

I thought they were just pressing the powder into forms, but it needs to be fired to get the best material ... making things more difficult.

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Graphite-Paper - Aluminium-Foil galvanic cell with 1.7 to 1.92 Volts
« Reply #58 on: July 08, 2010, 09:47:40 PM »
Well,
it might be good for pencils,
but as the clay is nonconductive, it will have  more ohmical resistance probably.

Maybe you can measure the ohmical resistance with these pencils and let us know ?

Many thanks.


Regards, Stefan.



Offline stephenafreter

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Re: Graphite-Paper - Aluminium-Foil galvanic cell with 1.7 to 1.92 Volts
« Reply #59 on: July 09, 2010, 01:21:21 PM »
Hi Stefan,
Resistance on my graphite pencils are around 20 Ohms.
While the best I could get with graphite powder + binder, was around 10 to 15 kilo Ohms !
That's 1,000 folds the resistance of the industrial pencils (those that are baked with clay).
Hope this helps.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Graphite-Paper - Aluminium-Foil galvanic cell with 1.7 to 1.92 Volts
« Reply #59 on: July 09, 2010, 01:21:21 PM »

 

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