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Author Topic: another way to fight lorentz  (Read 38426 times)

gravityblock

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Re: another way to fight lorentz
« Reply #75 on: December 06, 2009, 04:29:41 AM »
....the possibility is that it will produce twice the voltage potential as has been mentioned as a standard HPG or Faraday disk.

The voltage would be more than doubled, it would increase to the 4th power.  The downside is the drag is increased to the 4th power while drawing current negating our power output gain.  This is how I currently understand this at the moment.  Let's say a 2 ft. radii magnet produces 2 volts at 1000 rpm.  A 4 ft. radii magnet of the same strength would produce 16 volts at 1000 rpm.  The input requirements for the larger 4 ft. radii magnet would only increase to the square thereof in order to get it to 1000 rpm as compared to the 2 ft. radii magnet.  In order to maintain the system of the larger magnet at 1000 rpm while drawing current, then the input requirements will increase to the 4th power due to the drag or counter torque as compared to the smaller magnet.  I believe this has already been confirmed.

In the standard HPG, each additional brush that is added doubles the amps due to the brushes being connected in parallel and the input requirements double.  In this setup, each additional brush that is added will double the voltage due to them being connected in series and will double the input requirements.  Voltage is not a problem in the HPG with the right design.

I think your design has potential.  I have many designs that increase the voltage to the 4th power, but we won't achieve OU until we overcome this drag.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2009, 05:12:33 AM by gravityblock »

jadaro2600

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Re: another way to fight lorentz
« Reply #76 on: December 06, 2009, 05:58:50 AM »
its ingenious that you use conductive bearings instead of brushes, i don't know why i never thought of that but i would imagine it cuts out on friction a lot

where do you plan on going with your design? im interested to hear it

Well, if I were to create a disk Faraday style - where there were one pole to the side, ..the disk would be supported by three bearings - there would be no center axis, and it would simply be supported by those, I would have a brush at the center of rotation, as it would be an area of low relative surface feet per minute, the friction would be lower. I would pull current from any or all of the outside bearings, ..the rim of the disk would be grooved to the height of the bearing, that way it doesn't go flying off, etc.  By systematically, I should say, altering which bearing I took current from in such a way that it was extracted at frequency, ... no two at a time.  I think an interesting thing might occur if this were to be done.

5 bearings may be a bit much, but cycling the output may have better than expected results. Additionally, the two extra bearings gives it rigidity.

Given the nature of the oscillations, I think it possible to increase the voltage substantially - the joule thief is a simply way to boost voltage, a similar method could be employed if you were to alter the path by which energy were extracted.  Do this at a high rate of frequency may cause an electromagnetic wave to form to counter the most recently extracted current.  Doing so may also have beneficial effects.

I would draw current from the formerly discussed method ( diameter method, except I think I ) would groove the rim, and use four bearings, I'm not sure how I would orient them though.  The diametric model is simply to demonstrate matters-of-fact.

This is an interesting thing about the voltage, I don't know too much about the math behind the HPG, but i do think that a roller bearing would conserve friction forces.. I worry though about the high amps that one puts out might weld a brush or melt it.

gravityblock

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Re: another way to fight lorentz
« Reply #77 on: December 06, 2009, 02:50:09 PM »
@mr_bojangles:

I setup a small little test device for your original design and have been playing around with it.  I think the weights can be done away with. 

Glue a bearing on the outside axis of each disc.  The side of the bearing fixed to the disc I will refer to it as the fixed side and the other side of the bearing that can freely rotate I will refer to it as the rotating side.  Run a small non-magnetic rod from the rotating side of the left disc to the fixed side on the right disc. Then run another rod from the rotating side of the right disc to the fixed side on the left disc.  I haven't tested this idea yet.  Let me know what you think.

To my surprise, there is much more relative motion between the magnets and discs than I expected.  Below is an illustration in how the rods are connected to the bearings.

GB
« Last Edit: December 06, 2009, 03:48:35 PM by gravityblock »

mr_bojangles

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Re: another way to fight lorentz
« Reply #78 on: December 06, 2009, 11:26:30 PM »
that is a brilliant idea, i either see the rods "canceling" out the motion, as one rod will seek full rotation as compared to the other which will want to stay relative to the other disc, however the other might be that they will lock up and no relative motion will occur

I've been trying run it in my mind, but it is proving a difficult feat, and drawing i fared the same. the only issue i see is where they are fixed to the axis, because they will have a tendency to move with the machine as opposed to the slipped one, but at the same time i think it could result in the disc seeking the rotation of both which will result in the disc staying upright

maybe i will get time to build it, until then however

i thought of something, is there any way we can use centripetal force to give us the desired rotation pattern?

i messed around with a couple configurations that employed various gears attached to the axis with different placements of weight but in the end they all seemed to stick and rotate with the mechanism

so far i think it might be a lost cause but maybe itl spark an idea in your head

 if you get a chance to test yours let me know, it looks promising

if we do get this i feel like it could at least be PM


gravityblock

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Re: another way to fight lorentz
« Reply #79 on: December 07, 2009, 01:50:01 AM »
I've been trying run it in my mind, but it is proving a difficult feat, and drawing i fared the same.

I haven't been able to fully run it through my mind either, and although the drawing helps with the concept, it doesn't help to determine if it would work or not.  At least I have a model to play around with so I can see and understand the problem at hand more clearly.  I'll try to test this idea and will let you know the results.

GB

mr_bojangles

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Re: another way to fight lorentz
« Reply #80 on: December 07, 2009, 04:00:03 AM »
cant wait to hear how it goes

ive got a couple ideas i haven't tossed out yet, i think the answer will be connecting the discs only to themselves somehow, as well as it being able to work horizontal, because if it works horizontal obviously gravity will not be a factor and the rpm issue will be irrelevent

all wishful thinking, good luck

jadaro2600

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Re: another way to fight lorentz
« Reply #81 on: December 07, 2009, 04:35:16 AM »
Aluminum may make a cheaper disk..light weight, it could have an axial flywheel.  Somewhere not being influenced by the fields as much ( or even a non-conducting flywheel ).

gravityblock

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Re: another way to fight lorentz
« Reply #82 on: December 07, 2009, 05:22:29 AM »
Here's a short video showing the angular momentum while trying to keep the discs upright by hand.  The video is not of the best quality and the model is of poor construction, but it may help in visualizing how to keep the discs upright at high rpm's.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4c4orG9qQmk

GB


phoneboy

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Re: another way to fight lorentz
« Reply #83 on: December 07, 2009, 06:40:32 AM »
Quick question & possible suggestion, would a homopolar disc work if the disc and magnets were counter rotating. If so you could use a don wilkes type setup to have stationary pickups??

gravityblock

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Re: another way to fight lorentz
« Reply #84 on: December 07, 2009, 08:01:23 AM »
Quick question & possible suggestion, would a homopolar disc work if the disc and magnets were counter rotating. If so you could use a don wilkes type setup to have stationary pickups??

There would be no advantage in having the disc and magnet counter rotating relative to each other due to the magnetic field of the magnet remaining stationary.  It would work if the disc and external circuit counter rotated or two discs counter rotating on opposite sides of the magnet with a stationary pickup across the two counter rotating discs.  Here's a thread showing the latter, http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8409.0

Could you provide a link for the Don Wilkes setup?

Thanks,

GB
« Last Edit: December 07, 2009, 08:22:47 AM by gravityblock »

24hosting

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Re: another way to fight lorentz
« Reply #85 on: December 07, 2009, 02:59:03 PM »
How about putting the Slater in the center ?. Just 1. Then 2 magnet disc on the outside?.   

mr_bojangles

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Re: another way to fight lorentz
« Reply #86 on: December 07, 2009, 07:18:38 PM »
i would very much like to see the don wilkes set up, for i have not heard of it

@24hosting

the lenz drag would be pushed into the magnets, and it would exhibit similar characteristics of an unmodified generator or dynamo


on a different note,

what if we attached a rod that could move up, down, left and right, but not twist, fixed to each disc

it could be attached out on the side, a rod with a fixed loop or hook, so as long as it can move all directions but spinning it should work

light blue- rod
grey-disc
gold- loop
green- fixed rod on disc
black- fixed rod, freestanding
white- fixtures keeping "green" connected

24hosting

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Re: another way to fight lorentz
« Reply #87 on: December 07, 2009, 08:43:31 PM »
OK. Well I am very new to all of this. But would it not be the same ..The two outer rotors would spin (magnets are on the rotors) on a shaft or axle while the Slater was stationary in between (held the coils)?. I really don't know. But just thought it might. Give you more idea's .Something to think about. Going To start one myself today. See what happens. gl to you.
24hosting. 

jadaro2600

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Re: another way to fight lorentz
« Reply #88 on: December 07, 2009, 10:59:48 PM »
OK. Well I am very new to all of this. But would it not be the same ..The two outer rotors would spin (magnets are on the rotors) on a shaft or axle while the Slater was stationary in between (held the coils)?. I really don't know. But just thought it might. Give you more idea's .Something to think about. Going To start one myself today. See what happens. gl to you.
24hosting.

Using the magnet as the rotor is one option. It would have to have come sort of conducting skin, ..etc.

Some magnets have a lower power, the larger they are, which I find unusual, you may find a midrange size with a higher gauss field than one twice it's size.

gravityblock

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Re: another way to fight lorentz
« Reply #89 on: December 08, 2009, 07:35:13 AM »
There would be no advantage in having the disc and magnet counter rotating relative to each other due to the magnetic field of the magnet remaining stationary.

I'm quoting myself here.  There may be no advantage in having the magnet and disc counter rotating from an EMF point of view, but it may have an advantage in overcoming the counter torque somehow.

At this time, I am open to all possibilities, even things that appear to have no advantage or things that may appear to be counter intuitive.  Look at the Halbach array.  It's design appears to be counter intuitive, but it has led to brushless motors, magnetic bearings, magnetic coupling, particle accelerators, etc.  Doing things that are counter intuitive can be of great benefit at times.

We have to change the way we think and have a counter intuitive mind also, in order to accomplish things we otherwise wouldn't be able to do.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2009, 08:00:20 AM by gravityblock »