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Title: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on September 03, 2009, 07:05:30 AM
@all
Even if this site below is religiously oriented, they actually do have a point:

http://www.thetrumpet.com/index.php?q=6392.4873.0.0

Also:

http://dailyreckoning.com/yet-another-jobs-dilemma/
http://www.thetrumpet.com/index.php?q=6097.4500.0.0

I tend to ignore the religious aspect because I don't believe in their religion and I didn't cause the economic mess this country is in.  I'm not taking personal responsibility for it.  I've never had the money for even one credit card.

But, since I'm here on this planet, I have to put up with the effects of someone else's decision---as bad as the looks to me.

What to do about it?  I'm just waiting.  I was living on the streets for almost 1 1/2 yrs, and I got by on luck alone.  If I deserve to live, I will.  If I don't, I won't.

The die is cast.  Millions will go the relatives(who are as bad off), go to social services(overwhelmed) or starve(probable).  I'm already in a homeless shelter until it closes from lack of money(likely).  Then I'll take my place with everyone else.

Whatever ever I do, it's my decision, but I'm not afraid.  I got over that on the streets.

Good luck to me and you.  We'll all probably need it.

--Lee

Re-edit:
I'm open to discussion, but the Internet has other references to this problem besides the one above.  Diligent research should uncover them.  Think I'm wrong in this prediction?  "Wait and see", as the saying goes.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: christo4_99 on September 03, 2009, 09:38:58 AM
In the U.S. we have had since the Great Depression to learn from our mistakes.Pity we didn't though.Instead we convinced the whole world to become tied into the mess.Now the whole world will have the opportunity to learn this lesson with us.So what's the lesson we should have learned by now?"Money is the mechanism by which resources are squandered from the earth,man is robbed of his lifetime pursuant to.The phrase "let them eat cake" comes to mind in that the wealthy are saying "let them have paper".This is the real lesson.But if you want to know what you will end up thinking i think it will go something like ..."oh wise and great wizards of oz,thank you for solving our problems for us,now since you are so great and all knowing,let me grant my trust to you for other aspects and a more thorough control of my life...etc,etc...".
Title: I see an economic disaster coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on September 03, 2009, 09:37:48 PM
@christo4_99
You're right.  I'd say we've got a few week left until the American public realizes this scenario can't go on.  Then the "defecation will hit the airscoop".

--Lee
Title: I know an economic disaster is coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on September 04, 2009, 03:20:58 AM
the_big_m_in_ok said:
Quote
@all
Even if this site below is religiously oriented, they actually do have a point:
The site I gave in the initial post was religious in viewpoint.  Here's another slant without the religion and with economics factored in instead:

http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2009/08/dismal-unemployment-situation-in-chart.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/07/17/15-million-to-exhaust-une_n_238281.html


and, this is just for California:

http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/2009/08/weekly-unemployment-claims-increase_20.html

When the daily Good Morning America news show makes a feature presentation on this subject, it'll be right there in front of everyone.  The dam will break.

If they don't, people will begin talking to friends, neighbors and relatives until it becomes clear to all what's going on.  The dam will still break eventually.

Sooner or later, the effect is the same.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: onthecuttingedge2005 on September 04, 2009, 05:29:16 AM
this is the current trend on a national rate and not by state.

Unemployment rate percentages over the years.

it is going back down as of now.

It may be better to go back to our primitive migratory responses and move to states that have more work available. a lot of people tend to stick with one area now a days and lose out on the benefits of migration.

Jerry ;)
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on September 04, 2009, 05:38:31 PM
onthecuttingedge2005 said:
Quote
It may be better to go back to our primitive migratory responses and move to states that have more work available. a lot of people tend to stick with one area now a days and lose out on the benefits of migration.
Hi Jerry,
Ordinarily, you'd be right.  This isn't an *ordinary* situation, however.  Only---maybe---the Upper Plains states have fairly low unemployment rates nowadays.  Most people can't go anywhere to escape this problem.  I did it in Houston in 1983, but not today.  It's bad everywhere, really.

At least I live in CA now.  Not as many guns here as in AZ or NV.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: onthecuttingedge2005 on September 04, 2009, 06:49:14 PM
onthecuttingedge2005 said:Hi Jerry,
Ordinarily, you'd be right.  This isn't an *ordinary* situation, however.  Only---maybe---the Upper Plains states have fairly low unemployment rates nowadays.  Most people can't go anywhere to escape this problem.  I did it in Houston in 1983, but not today.  It's bad everywhere, really.

At least I live in CA now.  Not as many guns here as in AZ or NV.

--Lee

Hi Lee.

I live in the High Sierra's 50 miles from any big town and 100 miles from any big city.
the only real jobs here are through public works, working for the county.

apply to public works as a floater, a floater fills in for everyones days off, it could lead to a full time job which carries good benefits and they treat you well if your easy to get a long with.

you would have to pass a drug test and a physical.


a public works floater is almost a guaranteed position because it is a position nobody wants but does pay good and you get to work different positions at different locations at different times and that could lead to some good experiences.

good luck.
Jerry ;)
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on September 04, 2009, 09:21:47 PM
onthecuttingedge2005 said:
Quote
Hi Lee.
I live in the High Sierra's 50 miles from any big town and 100 miles from any big city. ...
Hi Jerry,
Very good!  You have an advantage over the average city dweller like me.  People "out in the sticks" need to be more aware of their environment, rather like the mountain men in olden days.  If you have a rifle, keep it clean and have enough ammo on hand.  I'm a Veteran and I know this is important.
Quote
...the only real jobs here are through public works, working for the county.
That's okay, as long as the money lasts.  It may not last a lot longer.  Barter is becoming a more popular option in doing business these days.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: dankie on September 04, 2009, 10:57:58 PM
If you are really smart you can master the new car geet and install it for people .

People need to invent their own jobs and stop being so pathetic .

http://www.geet.nl/news.php



Title: Nobody will need this GEET technology after the economy collapses...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on September 05, 2009, 12:51:51 AM
dankie said:
Quote
If you are really smart you can master the new car geet and install it for people.
Eventually, 3-4 million people who were spending money, will stop doing that after their unemployment benefits run out.  This will *snowball* into a 10X bigger trickle-down effect that snowballs even bigger after that.
Money?  It's running out and there won't be any in the future.  The military/political corporate machinery may try and keep things going on be declaring WWIII on the Muslims.
Just like in WWII. 
Quote
People need to invent their own jobs and stop being so pathetic .
My former business associate tried to do that honestly, and he was treated like crap!  The people he was talking to weren't going to give him an even break.  They wanted what he had, even if he was an expert.  The whole world is like this, which is why I never participated in the greedy games people like to play.
I'm not so stupid as to try and fight an uphill battle against the entrenched possessive fear a lot of people have.  Doesn't do any good.  They don't want to change.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: onthecuttingedge2005 on September 05, 2009, 01:34:26 AM
out of 50 states as a whole the unemployement rate is only 9.4%, this is not enough to collapse a nation, you would have to approach about 25% nation wide unemployement to do any real damage.

now that doesn't mean your 'county or state' won't collapse. just not the nation.

there is still a 90.6% employement rate in the nation as a whole, there is still way to much infrastructure for this very huge enonomy to collapse, the inflation isn't very high either and it to is reversing.

the country got hit hard I can grant you that but it won't do enough damage to keep the U.S from ever getting back off its knees.

and as soon as the wars stop the economy will pick up just like after all the other wars.

here is the current inflation rates;

Jerry :)
Title: Re: Nobody will need this GEET technology after the economy collapses...
Post by: onthecuttingedge2005 on September 05, 2009, 02:00:27 AM

Money?  It's running out and there won't be any in the future.  The military/political corporate machinery may try and keep things going on be declaring WWIII on the Muslims.

--Lee

Hi Lee.

I really think this is a bad statement saying a war on Muslims, America is not at war with Muslims, it is at war with radical terrorists against governments.
it just so happens that most are Muslim but that has nothing to do with the war.

we in the United States have plenty of Muslims blended with our society and I don't see any police or military locking them up because their Muslim, we are not at war with Muslims?

most Muslims are good people just like the rest of us, they are just getting a bad name because of radicals trying to conquer their governments and take rule as Muslim radicals and probably force dictatorship into the country by an Iron Fist.

we have a very nice blend of multi-culture and diversity in this country.

there will always be criminals in any race or creed but what can one do to eliminate the crime? The Prisons are full. build more prisons?

Jerry  :)
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: lltfdaniel1 on September 05, 2009, 03:12:08 AM
-
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: onthecuttingedge2005 on September 05, 2009, 05:10:38 AM
BBC doesn't know squat about America, I live here, I should know better than the BBC.

British Broadcast belongs with the rest of the foreign media.

more fear mongering, fear mongering is a tactic, well BBC, if America collapses then you got a whole lot of crap to deal with yourself, all those terrorist that want to change your little BBC country to an 'Iron fist' Muslim world ruled by radical muslim shia law. America is the only one whose going to save your butt. pull your head out of your arse!

or are you just making good conversation!?

Babylon area was given the confusion of language by God but was also given the confusion of religion for the whole of the world! why is that! I wonder!

Jerry :)
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on September 05, 2009, 05:15:08 AM
onthecuttingedge2005 said:
Quote
...out of 50 states as a whole the unemployement rate is only 9.4%, this is not enough to collapse a nation, you would have to approach about 25% nation wide unemployement to do any real damage. ...
Hi jerry,
You're correct in your exact opinion:  The official national unemployment rate is right at 9.7%(about 23-26 year high).
But nobody is being told:  The unofficial, noncompetitive job seeker, who quit looking for work, isn't being counted.  Really.  I my state(Calif.), the official rate is about 11-11.5% that might make the unofficial rate at nearly 25%.

The favorable exchange rate for the dollar and the tourist industry in San Francisco is saving the state---temporarily.  Otherwise businesses are closing regularly.  I see it several times a week on the train into downtown on the main streets.

To say, "It doesn't look good for the future", is a guarded understatement.  There are subtle, hidden problems that can become very, very! serious in due course.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: onthecuttingedge2005 on September 05, 2009, 05:42:19 AM
The United States will not fall. it will not collapse, it will continue to be the most prosperous nation in the world.

the USA has its up and downs like any other country, but most countries feels it more than the USA ever will.

sure, I would like a Bartar system, but the 'whole world' will not change to it and makes it worthless as a whole economy trade. see, we are not dealing with just America on the bartar scale, we are dealing with the whole world who uses money as trade period.

what power can a Government have with Bartar? we as a human race have always been ruled by a leader as colonist as the species we are.

we are Humans, we are ruled by a colonist Queen or King(President or Emperor), it is what our species does.

if you want to get rid of that human colonist rulership then you might as well sign off God while you're at it. won't happen.

Jerry ;)
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on September 05, 2009, 06:17:35 PM
onthecuttingedge2005 said:
Quote
The United States will not fall. it will not collapse, it will continue to be the most prosperous nation in the world.
The fall of the Roman Empire didn't happen?  The Egyptian Empire?  The Mayans?  No society lasts forever and neither will this one.

The Book of Revelations?  The earth will be consumed by fire, the Bible says.  Did you see the movie, The Knowing?  The earth was cooked by heat when the sun went nova.  Only a boy and his sister were saved.

My point is:  It's ending shortly.  People will stop spending money when they don't have any to spend.  It begins with the lack of continued employment benefits.  The snowball effect alone should rattle everyone's nerves in the future.  And! I'll leave alone the possibility of social/civil unrest.  That's a possibility, but it's in the minds of individuals to decide to do that.

I'm not afraid.  I got over that on the streets.  However, some people may be forced to deal with their fears and lack of self sufficiency in the future.  What they do about that is also their decision.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: christo4_99 on September 05, 2009, 07:02:42 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiagCIF6Ejw it's ridiculous that they describe all the new money as taxpayer money but the taxpayer doesn't get a share in the bank.It's counterproductive(for the bank) for the average joe to live well.That's the bottom line.A little bit of social unrest is a small price to pay to get the rat trained to run faster on the treadmill in the long run.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on September 06, 2009, 03:23:52 AM
christo4_99 said:
Quote
It's counterproductive(for the bank) for the average joe to live well.That's the bottom line.
What it is, is that there an economic incentive for some businessmen to maintain the status quo.  That means more bad news to the economy.  They're trying to keep the money going as long as possible.  For that reason, their karma is going to be heavy.  To put it lightly!

Now, I have specific answers to some posts above, but I'll get to them when I can.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on September 06, 2009, 04:19:14 AM
-
With respect to Reply #12, this thread:

The YouTube video clip is at:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9P3x9YINTg
This is an advertisement for a British TV show to be aired shortly.

This is merely their opinion.  However, keep in mind the British economy is just as mired in the recession as ours.  What happens to us, happens to them---and they know it.  They're probably not happy about it, either.

If social unrest is coming, we will all experience it to some extent.  The idea, I think, is to try and "keep your head down" and "lay low" as much as possible.  I sure will.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on September 06, 2009, 06:43:44 AM
Quote from: christo4_99 said:
[quote
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiagCIF6Ejw it's ridiculous that they describe all the new money as taxpayer money but the taxpayer doesn't get a share in the bank.It's counterproductive(for the bank) for the average joe to live well.
I was able to see part of the clip.  I just didn't see whether Bill Moyers guest was able to determine whether or not there was a way out of this mess.  Doubtful, in my opinion.  Too much money and too much greed.
When people get fed up with the political games that have been played for many, many! years, there'll be hell to pay.

There is no good answer to this as long as it's "business as usual."

I have my eye on the streets, since I used to live there.  People are becoming more and more angry at their lack of power over a deteriorating situation in this country.  Don't tell me I'm a fear monger!  I'm still alive because I've been able to see a bad situation and personally do something---whatever that was---to mitigate it.  In this case, as on the streets, I'll rely on my good luck.  I don't have the power to do anything else.  The economy won't cure itself on my say so.  Until something better happens, luck is all I have.

Later Re-edit:
I did see more of the clip.  What Moyer's guest proposes is essentially more of the same.  And, I expect his proposal will be met with resistance.  People are doing what they did before the Stock Crash of '29 and they're doing it with more money that they're highly dependent on.  There is no good answer to this.  People can finally lose confidence in the economy---especially the Chinese who bought many U.S. assets---and then this'll all act like a house of cards.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: infringer on September 06, 2009, 04:36:52 PM
Onthecuttingedge2005,

You are the only one who appears to understand the economy of the US rather odd that other people do not see it been proven time and time again the logistics of it all...

All the rest of folks out there stop fear mongering in a feeble attempt to further push the economy into the abyss as some would like it...

This is not going to happen people have been at this for nearly a year and all the economy does is rebound more and more since the start 544,000 jobs were added to the health care industry! And my job in the entertainment industry has been the busiest it has ever been since the start of the company we had to lease space just to run two operations and we hired approximately 10 new employees that were only supposed to be temp help now they are full time!

Truth is rough I know of people who do have it a bit worse then I sure but there time has been long coming ... For one you can only sell so many lawn mowers or vehicles before you wind up with way more product then demand once you get so big you start leaving too much money in wait and wind up taking a loss. Just like the stock market they were depending on being able to sell x amount of items as if they just expect there never to be a drop in sales... This is a very risky business model and I suggest no one follows this model... Instead focus on keeping a core crew and making higher quality products in lower numbers this takes more time but in the end you will survive to see another day while others will fall off.

GM is a prime example you have how many auto manufactures out there eventually they will produce good products of interest to the consumer and your sales will be down nothing that should not be expected but they never planned for this turn of events and wound up bankrupt as Toyota and Fords sales increased there sales numbers dropped drastically it was determined to happen at some point or another why they did not plan for this event is a crucial question.

Finally at the end of the day we all have to have a job make money and live so no matter how much debt the number says we are there will always be work and always be a way it may not be the easy life or job that you are used to but nothing defined as "Complete Collapse" of the financial sector it will not happen I will bet tons of money on that!

-infringer-
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on September 08, 2009, 04:30:20 AM
infringer said:
Quote
You are the only one who appears to understand the economy of the US rather odd that other people do not see it been proven time and time again the logistics of it all...
...All the rest of folks out there stop fear mongering in a feeble attempt to further push the economy into the abyss as some would like it...
...This is not going to happen people have been at this for nearly a year and all the economy does is rebound more and more since the start 544,000 jobs were added to the health care industry! ...

@infringer
I'll only address the comments above.  Take a look at this:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/speakerpelosi/3333412448/

The rate of employment is still rising.  When it reaches 10%, the unofficial, real, rate should be about 20-25%.  And now prime mortgages are becoming a problem to lending banks.  But, to focus on you assertion that jobs are being created, yes they are, but not enough of them.  Have a look at this:

http://vdare.com/roberts/060507_economy.htm

4.4 million jobs were lost in the past 14 months and the Europeans and Asians may be about as bad off.  They need to make up the slack in business the Americans aren't spending on, or the feedback effect of declining infrastructure could continue for awhile longer.

Then, as in the opening post of this thread, the impending cutoff of benefits money for the unemployed is going to make a bad problem worse.  No immediate end in sight.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on September 09, 2009, 05:52:17 AM
In a recession if you have a job,you keep it.Most people had jobs during the great depression,but the 18% who did not represented millions of people who lived in misery.The only thing that brought us out of the great depression was WW11,not the USA government.Not the US congress.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on September 09, 2009, 05:08:13 PM
In a recession if you have a job,you keep it.Most people had jobs during the great depression,but the 18% who did not represented millions of people who lived in misery.The only thing that brought us out of the great depression was WW11,not the USA government.Not the US congress.triffid
Historians would say you're right, 70-80 years after the fact, in hindsight.  The Gov't at that time had to borrow billions in today's dollars, but they did. If Osama bin Ladin becomes emboldened by our apparent lack of financial resources to fund the War on Terrorism, Obama may declare WWIII on Muslim extremists.  The extremists are sociopaths who don't care about anything but what they want, e.g., to kill us.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: jadaro2600 on September 11, 2009, 01:27:46 AM
The extremists are sociopaths who don't care about anything but what they want, e.g., to kill us.

--Lee

Extremists are the problem, not just extremists with religious zeal.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on September 11, 2009, 02:30:57 AM
Extremists are the problem, not just extremists with religious zeal.
That's what I meant.  "Extremists are the problem," as you said.  Individuals who take their personal desires and their mental wreckage and foist it on others---sometimes by force---because they want to.  Hitler and bin Ladin were fired in the same mold.

Merely having extremist opinions on a subject, that doesn't affect others, is okay.  It doesn't matter how extreme.  One can always keep it to oneself.  Everyone has an opinion, including me.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on September 14, 2009, 04:33:44 AM
the_big_m_in_ok said:
Quote
...Then, as in the opening post of this thread, the impending cutoff of benefits money for the unemployed is going to make a bad problem worse.  No immediate end in sight.

NOTE:

New development:

http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=131832675980

This, I hope, is a permanently archived article.  The whole financial industry is still poised to burst an expanding bubble is rising slowly now.  As I said above, "No immediate end in sight."
Wall St. never has learned that greed is its own punishment.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: jadaro2600 on September 14, 2009, 10:22:03 PM
Consider the nature of condensation.  If one had no other means of determining whether or not their was humidity, then one could easily tell by how much condensation forms on the outside of something cold over a period of time.

Now, the idea is that by looking at the proverbial condensation on the market and value of money over time: the markets are full of hot wet air, with lots of extra junk thrown in to make everyone happy.

I like to think of Novelty Theory when thinking about the market; take away all the novelty items and you get to the core of the market.  These are where the bottom line is, all else is relevant but it's just as irrelevant.  Considering the massive amounts of JUNK coming out of 'strong economies' ..such as china and japan, the relevant markets' consumables are all inclusive..

When it comes to economies, the real info as clouded with fake info.  Novelties are a fake endeavor, as even though they create jobs, so does increasing the number of frivolously paid government workers ( such as people that clean up roadkill, etc. ).

I might add, that there are industrial aspects of novelty items; even though each and every marketable item we/they produce is somewhat of a novelty item, the act of brining something to market is where most of the monetary strain goes -

( notice here, where is begin to ramble, EVEN more ...)  ..blah blah blah, this is the field of poppies that they referred to in The Wizard of Oz..

And then there's the Idea of agriculture - the most basic, which, industrialized, needs mining and ore resources; Ultimately, natural resources are our greatest resources. Not meaning or intending to convolute the point, our exports are more important as food then they would be as some novelty item.

Given a crisis, novelties tend to be less utilized.  It's in the backward strategy of our functional defense, that if our economy tanks, so does theirs.  Go stock up of teddy bears and gum-ball machine toys - I don't think so.  Buy less novelty items; show them the power of our economy.

The cash for clunkers is a scam - most cars flying off the lot aren't made in America. TO add to that, most people get back what they would pay in sales tax... quickly:

you get 3500 for your clunker, the NEW car you get costing 22,000.00, you pay 1540 in sales tax to you state @7%, 1980@9% ...in other words, the state takes half of your refund in most cases...RIGHT back where it came from.  Most people having money for a new expensive car, will have an old expensive car...you get 4500 for your clunker, you pay 35,000, you pay 2450@7%, 3150@9%.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on September 15, 2009, 01:49:50 AM
@jadaro2600

In regard to your whole #28 posting, I mostly agree.  Accessories can be foregone with in a recession.  In view of the fact that little has changed on Wall St., and that several million people will have no income at all in due course, the situation looks dire for the economy when people catch on to their not having any future.

When people get scared or they're hopeless(likely in a few months), all Hell will break loose.

--Lee

Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on September 15, 2009, 04:56:15 PM
the_big_m_in_ok said:
NOTE:

New development:

http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=131832675980

ANOTHER NOTE:

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090914065024AATojye
(this article may be replaced in the future by fresher news)

The whole financial system is still "on the edge", as it were...

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: onthecuttingedge2005 on September 15, 2009, 06:57:15 PM
ANOTHER NOTE:

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090914065024AATojye
(this article may be replaced in the future by fresher news)

The whole financial system is still "on the edge", as it were...

--Lee

installing more Temp employement agencies would help lesson the effects until permanent jobs come along, sometimes temp jobs lead to permanent jobs if the employee likes their skills and memory absorbtion. Temp agencies are faster to start up rather than large industries so it's like having a snack before the main course comes along.

now if we can just get those who don't want to work to get to work we'll can eliminate a lot of that red tape. I know at least 50 people that don't want to work, they just want to milk the system for what it's worth.

how many people do you know that don't want to work? I bet you it runs into at least 1.5 to 2 million people nation wide.

Jerry ;)
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on September 15, 2009, 11:31:31 PM
onthecuttingedge2005said:
Quote

I know at least 50 people that don't want to work, they just want to milk the system for what it's worth.
Well, okay, you have a valid point.  People can get so discouraged,  they quit looking.  I do want to work,  but I lack the recent experience and schooling to qualify.  And, I'm almost 60.

Quote
...how many people do you know that don't want to work? I bet you it runs into at least 1.5 to 2 million people nation wide.
Exactly.  The "Entitlement Generation" hasn't had to live through a serious recession like this one to know what real privation is.  Many people are about to  learn the hard way.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: onthecuttingedge2005 on September 16, 2009, 07:43:04 AM
.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: jadaro2600 on September 17, 2009, 04:41:06 AM
The "Entitlement Generation" hasn't had to live through a serious recession like this one to know what real privation is.  Many people are about to  learn the hard way.

--Lee

It's these types of situations which usher in the idea of a commune.  Not to be distasteful or anything, but the idea of a commune is one that's been utilized for many thousands of years, it's only seen as having been sullied by the idea of communism, which is itself entirely different and larger, more ominous, etc.

Think of a prison as a sort of commune, or a church, or even a workplace.  What really defines it? - people sleeping in close quarters, or that which takes place while in one?  Hmm?

Is your workplace a communist one?
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on September 17, 2009, 05:26:17 AM
jadaro2600 said:
Quote
It's these types of situations which usher in the idea of a commune.  Not to be distasteful or anything, but the idea of a commune is one that's been utilized for many thousands of years, it's only seen as having been sullied by the idea of communism, which is itself entirely different and larger, more ominous, etc.
Yes, I agree.  Communism is insidious.  I was told by a former acquaintance years ago: "The only communism that works in the world is an Israeli kibbutz."  She had dual Israeli/American citizenship, so she knew.
(I could tell you why, but it has to do with their religion.)
What doesn't work is human nature to be dishonest and greedy.  Right now, nothing concrete, in a financial sense, is being done to mitigate the market meltdown on Wall St. because of human nature.

Quote
Think of a prison as a sort of commune, or a church, or even a workplace.  What really defines it? - people sleeping in close quarters, or that which takes place while in one?  Hmm?
Is your workplace a communist one?
Yeah, it is.  I live in a halfway house for homeless Vets in San Francisco.  This is actually, literally a communist setup.  However, the problems that come with being a combat Vet are something that adds stress to the overall situation.  It's not perfect, by any means.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: ATT on September 17, 2009, 05:27:21 AM
.
Some interesting insights from an economist's point of view:
http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2009/09/13/why_capitalism_fails/

Maybe a portent of what big_m is predicting:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-1212013/Revealed-The-ghost-fleet-recession-anchored-just-east-Singapore.html

My personal view: Become as self-sufficient as possible, position ourselves to minimize dependency.

There will be a brief respite before we encounter yet another 'collapse', use that time wisely.
.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on September 17, 2009, 06:04:40 AM
ATT said:
Quote
.
Some interesting insights from an economist's point of view:
http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2009/09/13/why_capitalism_fails/
Good, ATT.  I agree with Minsky.

An American History teacher in high school told my class that, "For the federal government to shoot the right amount of money at the right time into the economy would bring the country out of depression or recession.  The big 'if' is when, where and how much money to spend."

Minsky said about the same thing.  He's got a better handle on it than anyone now or then.

Quote
Maybe a portent of what big_m is predicting:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-1212013/Revealed-The-ghost-fleet-recession-anchored-just-east-Singapore.html
This computer has a block on that site.  I'll get to another computer later.

Quote
My personal view: Become as self-sufficient as possible, position ourselves to minimize dependency.
There will be a brief respite before we encounter yet another 'collapse', use that time wisely.
.
Excellent!  Do the best you can.  We may all need as much luck as possible.

Re-edit:
Another take on the subject of business-as-usual:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32875188/ns/business-world_business/
NOTE:
This article may or may not be replaced in the future with fresher news.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: ATT on September 17, 2009, 06:22:59 AM
.
Quote
This computer has a block on that site.  I'll get to another computer later.
Lee, Hunt down a proxy or an anonymizer (same thing) and you'll get through the ip-block.

I found this somewhat 'telling':
http://www.epi.org/publications/entry/jolts_20090909/

Quote
Do the best you can.  We may all need as much luck as possible.
So true. Regardless of '...plans of mice and men...', ultimately we all need the 'luck' to go with any positioning we attempt.

I wish you well,

Tony






Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on September 17, 2009, 06:30:58 AM
ATT said:
Quote
.Lee, Hunt down a proxy or an anonymizer (same thing) and you'll get through the ip-block.
Sometimes I can GOOGLize another site and get the same information.
Also, I can go borrow a Linux-based CD-R disk that doesn't have a 'Net Nannie' on it and look at anything.

Quote
I found this somewhat 'telling':
http://www.epi.org/publications/entry/jolts_20090909/
Time's about up on this borrowed computer.  I'll look tomorrow.


Quote
So true. Regardless of '...plans of mice and men...', ultimately we all need the 'luck' to go with any positioning we attempt.
I wish you well,
Tony
Right.  Thanks.  You, also.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Mk1 on September 17, 2009, 08:50:35 AM
http://www.disclose.tv/viewvideo/29990/Dr__Steven_Greer_The_Promise_of_New_Energy/
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: ATT on September 17, 2009, 06:47:34 PM
.
http://www.disclose.tv/viewvideo/29990/Dr__Steven_Greer_The_Promise_of_New_Energy/

The operant word here is ...Promise....

While I appreciate the vigor with which motivational evangelists make their case,  holding out possibilities that are 'just around the corner', so to speak, have limited value in the 'hear and now'.

Better to plan for the most likely occurrence.

If you were to calculate the odds of FE/UFO disclosure verses further economic breakdown, which do you think would be more likely?
.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on September 17, 2009, 08:07:37 PM
@ATT
I saw the first 6 mins. of the video quoted in Reply #41 and then I started to get the overall drift of his message: Conspiracy and disinformation.

Okay, he's right.  But if he takes the same line as those who went before him(no full disclosure), he's part of the problem.

You're right, ATT.  All he's doing is making a promise, from what little I've heard so far.

--Lee
 
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: ATT on September 18, 2009, 08:59:07 AM
.
I do beg your indulgence for this rather 'stretched-out' post but it's such a good opportunity to respond further to the posted video link.

Dr Steven Greer:
Wife is a Yale grad.
Well connected with Washington insiders
Lives close to DC and Langley, VA

Born: June 28 1955.
Probably began practice around 1985

Espouses:
Extraterrestrial contact
Extraterrestrial suppression
Advanced technology suppression
Government conspiracy
NWO conspiracy

Organizations formed:
1990 Center for the study of extraterrestrial intelligence
1993 Disclosure project
2007 Advanced energy research organization
New: Orion project

Books:
1999: Extraterrestrial Contact
2001: Disclosure
2006: Hidden Truth

Does lecture circuits (seminars)

Appears on tv/radio:
Larry King Live
CBS
BBC
NTV (Japan)
Sightings
Encounters
Coast to Coast
Armstrong Williams 
internet radio

Claims to be a contactee

Teaches:
Meditation
Remote viewing
Cosmic consiencness
Precognition
Supernatural abilities

Solicits donations without any technology:
Solicits new AE/OU/FE inventions:
http://www.theorionproject.org/en/faq.html

From looking at the above, I'm wondering when he had time to practice medicine...

If I was a -real- conspiracy aficionado, I'd suspect he was a 'plant' who was injected into the fringe-mainstream to discover individuals who would be detrimental to government coverups and FE inventors on the verge of breakthroughs...in order to suppress them before they did any damage to secret government programs (or economic agendas), all under the guise of 'disclosure'.

* His headquarters -is- comfortably close to WA-DC and Langley VA (CIA HDQTRS).
* His wife -is- a Yale grad (skull and bones).
* By his own admission he -is- well connected with the power-elite.
* The corporate officers of his various organizations have been connected with government and industry (CIA operatives?)
http://www.theorionproject.org/en/about.html.
* He only had a chance to practice medicine for about five years before becoming embroiled in ufo coverup conspiracy (government startup?).
* He has had network-quality coverage (government paid-for?).
* He solicits donations without having any technology (cover for black-ops funding?).
* He solicits inventions without any development track-record (direct pipe to government for suppression?).

No, a -real- conspiracy theorist would see-through the slick facade of Tony Robinesque motivational speech, too-slick east-coast organization, Madison Avenue caliber marketing and too-easy access to senators, representatives, industry moguls and scientists...too slick, too quick, smells like a trap.

On the other hand...he could just be in it for the money. You can imagine what a cash-cow any kind of conspiracy following can generate, just look at all the players who have cashed-in and continue to cash-in, times are good for conspiracy marketers...worldwide.

I won't go into my act on alternative-marketing, but you should know that the accepted 'formula' is:

* Promote Fear
* Suspend Disbelief
* Sell Hope

I'll leave it to you to recognize those to whom this applies ('...By their fruits shall ye know them...' sort of thing).

A third possibility is that he could be sincere, in which case none of the above would apply.

Of course, the eventual point of all this is 'it doesn't matter' because if the economy fails to the point of systemic breakdown, what's going to be important to you and yours are things like:

Food
Water
Shelter
Fuel
Medicine
Protection
and most importantly...
Knowledge.

UFOs and black-box energy cubes won't save us if it 'all falls down'.

So I'm going to pay attention to things that matter, the rest is for (as they say) 'entertainment value only'.
.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: MasterPlaster on September 18, 2009, 01:45:41 PM

If I was a -real- conspiracy aficionado, I'd suspect he was a 'plant' who was injected into the fringe-mainstream to discover individuals who would be detrimental to government coverups and FE inventors on the verge of breakthroughs...in order to suppress them before they did any damage to secret government programs (or economic agendas), all under the guise of 'disclosure'.


Great post.

I agree with you. Greer is one of "them" and anyone associated with him is either is working with him or, brought in so, can be kept under close observation.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: ATT on September 18, 2009, 07:21:56 PM
If -you- were a -real- conspiracy theorist, you would immediately recognise that -I- am the government agent who was embedded to diseminate disinformation about those who are trying to elicit full disclosure of secret government projects and overunity devices...

Just kidding...(maybe)...

Although I emphasized the 'double agent' factor in my post, it was meant to be more 'tongue in cheek' than accusatory (but I'm glad you enjoyed it).

This is Lee's thread about economic downturn and the dangers thereof, the departure I indulged in above was prompted by a video link post that appeared earlier (and you notice I returned to the real theme of this thread at the end).

However, given that Greer may be one of:
a.) government agent
b.) mercenary marketer
c.) true believer

I would pick b.) as most likely.
I would pick a.) in second place.
I would pick c.) as third most likely.

And as a parting note, remember:
Trust no one. Suspect everything. Believe nothing...
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on September 18, 2009, 09:32:56 PM
@ATT
I like practically everything you said previously.  The only thing is, so far, I haven't had the time or freedom to thoroughly investigate Greer's claims and assertions without headphones or a Linux operating-system-oriented disk in my hand.  This weekend however... I'll have both.

Kudos to you!  Greer sounds like a slick operator looking for gullible backers.  And you're right:
Trust no one...except your inner instinctive voice warning you of danger. 

Suspect everything outside yourself...unless you're looking out for NUMBER 1, your own survival mode actions to avoid trouble should be above suspicion.

Believe nothing...but that which stands up to the test of time---especially a stranger's claims.

Re-edit:
Maybe I spoke too soon?  I didn't have enough information:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8064.0
Here's the YouTube address:

http://www.prisonplanet.com/soldier-claims-authorities-training-to-intern-americans-who-refuse-swine-flu-shot.html
(This borrowed computer refuses to load and run the file.  I'll have to try later with a new system disk or go to another computer.)


A military whistle blower says people will be rounded up in concentration camps without a proof-of-vaccination bracelet.  This might cause some social problems in a few hotheaded Americans.  People are buying lotsa guns as it is now.  If people need a trigger, an overbearing Gov't like Soviet communism in Afghanistan might do the trick.  Forcing thousands into concentration camps would cause an economic disaster, as is the subject of this thread.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: ATT on September 18, 2009, 11:10:50 PM
.
Now, from what I posted before about alternative marketing, see if any of it applies to PrisonPlanet's latest offering regarding H1N1. Then, consider the following news links (excepting the one for net-neutrality, of course).

Among the things to consider when deciding on the value of 'likleyhood' to attribute to an item, would include that of 'track-record' for past items that the same source has predicted or reported on.

* Are the sources of the report conveniently anonymous?
* Was the report later proved accurate?
* Did the prediction come to pass?
* Has any report from this source had a direct-detrimental affect on you?
* When was the last time you saw any 'good news' reported from this source?
* Do they appear to engage in niche-related 'tabloid marketing'?
* Do they sell a lot of 'stuff' on their site?
* Do they host a lot of advertising on their site?
* Do they depend on sensationalism to draw traffic in order to promote sales and advertising?
* Is their marketing model successful in making money?

Not to say it's all bogus, just to offer a little centering-rationale when confronted with scads of viral-marketing 'poggie-bait' (you remember what that is from your military days, right?).

Meanwhile, the news:

CDC - no shots, nose spray:
http://www.reuters.com/article/governmentFilingsNews/idUSN1837082220090918

Organization lacking:
http://www.reuters.com/article/GCA-SwineFlu/idUSTRE58H2ZY20090918

Public fear-H1N1:
http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNews/idUSTRE58H58820090918

Here's our ration of 'good news':
Net Neutrality:
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/posttech/2009/09/fcc_to_introduce_rules_that_pr.html
.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: MasterPlaster on September 19, 2009, 12:35:22 AM

I also believe Beardon is in bed with Greer. Well not literally but he has been involved in malavelant activities (ref: Marshall Thomas-MKultra).

I know he is good buddy with John Bedini. Now first one of you who has a self runner, please put me right.

Back to the economic disaster, yes it is coming to us regular folks but our poleticians who have the fists of the controllers up their back sides and the controllers them selves will have no problem with that. A sort of heads I win, tails you lose.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: ATT on September 19, 2009, 04:25:15 AM
Quote
I also believe Beardon is in bed with Greer

It's my impression that Bearden and Bedini are business partners. As for Greer's complicity in anything, I do know he is sought-after to underwrite/support various projects owing to his motivational-speaking and salesmanship skills and his connections to Washington insiders and industy 'movers'. I don't know anything specifically about any dealings between he and Bearden (but then I don't follow all that, anyway).

Quote
...our poleticians who have the fists of the controllers up their back sides and the controllers them selves will have no problem with that.

If I were to launch into a diatribe based on those statements it could take-up volumes, so I'll just say: yes, I agree (the subject gets into a lot more depth than you might first imagine).
.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: MasterPlaster on September 19, 2009, 10:37:35 AM
Please, do tell.
This is the right forum for it!
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on September 19, 2009, 04:55:35 PM
ATT said:
Quote
Public fear-H1N1:
http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNews/idUSTRE58H58820090918
I happened to see on the Internet, in passing from an article, scientists were admittedly trying to combine the deadly avian flu and the swine flu in a lab to then formulate a vaccine for it.

Isn't that risky if they succeed and it infects a lab worker, unknowingly, and it's then inadvertently released into the worldwide population?

Avian Flu that's as contagious as swine flu?  And it kills at least 60% of its victims?  Talk about a conspiracy theory?!?!

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: ATT on September 19, 2009, 08:25:37 PM
Avian Flu that's as contagious as swine flu?  And it kills at least 60% of its victims?  Talk about a conspiracy theory?!?!

Anything is possible when dealing with those who have no consience (and who's intellectual abilities are limited to furthering their agendas).

Although the potential threat a mutated flue virus presents is immediately disturbing, the broader possibilities of an insidious agenda are even more disturbing.

The question that remains is: What action do we take?

Please, do tell. This is the right forum for it!

Would you like that -manuscript- in Quark, Indesign or PDF format?

Seriously, there is ever so much more to this than than meets the eye. Any investigation of the of the events and interactions leading to the circumstances we find ourselves in today (in order to appear cohesive) would require too rigorous a treatment to deal with in a few fragmented forum posts.

I will say this much, there are a multiplicity of controls imposed on populations in order to both steer and maintain a desired direction at any given time. Most often the desired effect can be realized with simple 'nudges', but occasionally the controllers wish to bring about a directional change more rapidly and that requires a more forceful (thus drastic) control-input.

If you've ever piloted a boat, you know that when you apply rudder it takes a while to bring the craft around to a new heading (for the helm to answer-up), the bigger the craft, the more time it takes. It's the same with populations, so it's important to realise that the control-input required for any desired change must be applied well before you desire that change in direction to occur...sometimes 'generations' before you desire that change to occur.

We have been in the process of 'answering the helm' now for more than one generation (several, actually) and we are beginning to see glimpses of the ultimate destination our 'controllers' have determined.

If the majority of the 'crew' won't mutiny, perhaps those of us who have more insight should consider manning the lifeboats...
.
Title: I STILL say an economic disaster is coming, but a trigger might start it...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on September 20, 2009, 06:26:02 PM
Anything is possible when dealing with those who have no consience (and who's intellectual abilities are limited to furthering their agendas).
Yep. I agree 100%
But:  With respect to the video involving the female National Guard troop, there could be a trigger in the Gov't trying to confiscate all American Weapons.  This probably won't go over well in the Western States, as well as the Appalachian States.  Guns are important to these people.  I doubt if they'll hand them over without comment.
Here's the video:
http://www.prisonplanet.com/soldier-claims-authorities-training-to-intern-americans-who-refuse-swine-flu-shot.html
See for yourself and decide whether or not she's kidding or merely being an alarmist Chicken Little.

Quote
Although the potential threat a mutated flue virus presents is immediately disturbing, the broader possibilities of an insidious agenda are even more disturbing.
Well, many religions have an "End Times" prophecy.  In terms of historical records, the leaders of past empires weren't generally setting the best example for their citizens to follow.  Some of those leaders(i.e., Adolph Hitler, Ghengis Khan, Attila the Hun) were the problem to be dealt with.  But, that goes for everywhere.

Quote
The question that remains is: What action do we take?
One Member on the forum, on this thread, suggested, "Run for the hills!, Run for your life!"
Can he live in the wilderness from scratch, with merely the clothes he's wearing?  In an environment stressed by pollution?  Doubtful.  Also, the Gov't has helicopters and night-vision goggles.  He can't hide anywhere, and neither can anyone else.  I don't even try.

Quote
If the majority of the 'crew' won't mutiny, perhaps those of us who have more insight should consider manning the lifeboats...
.
This "trigger" I mentioned can begin the collapse I predict. AND, several other sources said the same thing already.
What can I do?
Nothing.  I can't change anything.  Whatever I do, someone can always come along later and change that to suit themselves.  Everything changes in the universe.  I've seen this happen for many years.

What I can do is wait and watch.  Those who want to make more karma, can do so.  They have free will, like everyone.  However, whether they like it or not, they'll be held accountable for their actions. 
Me, too.
That's why I never really got involved with the crap some people think is important.  That's short term.  For me, in the long term, some earlier predictions have indicated that there is hope for the smart, resilient and adaptable person. 
A former Marine told me:  "The man who know how to use his mind and his body can be very dangerous."
I'm not military trained to be dangerous, but I can try and be at the right place at the right the time---and use that survival quality to my advantage.
Be aware:  I'm here now because I don't make fatal mistakes and I'm very, very! lucky when I need to be.  That's the way it is for me.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: d3adp00l on September 21, 2009, 07:39:22 AM
well here in cali they are admitting to an unemployment rate of 12.2-.5% which means we are really nearing 30%.

Cali has the largest pop of any state, 36 mil
It has a civilian work force of 18 mil
around 16 are working and 2.2 are considered unemployeed.
but with a little closer inspection its closer to the nonfarm industry number of 14.4 mil


67% of the population is in the working age range, as you can tell, 50% of the pop in cali is considered the workforce.

The reason unemplyment is around 27%, of the workforce, so more like 13 mil working and 4.86 mil not working. Since california is 12% of the US's population, and increase here does affect the national number, not much, but more than anyone else.

of the 150 mil considered the nations workforce, right now 15 mil are not working, officially. the reality is more like 25% overall.

Think about this trend ladies and gents. No new jobs are being created, no new industry arising. this income loss means that every industry will be affected, all incomes of business will be dramatically affected. Food will go down the least, next fuel.

But retailers will be hot to the tune of 40% losses, this will carry the same for construction, and all other non nessecity industries. This will result in more layoffs.

This christmas season will seal that deal. when the 65% of the middle income people spend 50% of what they did even last year which was 50% of what it was the year before.
 http://www.americanresearchgroup.com/holiday/

We all know that without the holiday shopping most retailers would go belly up. 50-75% of their business occurs for that shopping period. The sales cut down to 65% of the total sales last year, These retailers are gonna craps themselves.

The only industry going up, is government based jobs, either direct or indirect, aka homeland security, border patrol, construction of gov facilies, military complexes. and some infrastructure.

This is where people normally say, "see they are making new jobs!" well most of these things were years in the making, they were approved a year or more ago. But never the less, these jobs are not real producers, they use tax money, well this is like a snake that is eating itself. Jobs financed from taxes, when the tax base income is going through the floor, will not stimulate anything except a few people for a short time.

The government has been in a budget issue with 4-5% unemployment, triple that and see what happens to their budget? add in the fact that they are spending even more and what do you get?

This crash is not a maybe, it will and has to happen. Its simple fact. They should be slowing their spending, and letting up on taxation on the american people. Let the people have their own money and they can spend more.

We need to re-establish our agricultural, construction, and manufacturing base.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: ATT on September 21, 2009, 07:33:20 PM
Quote
there could be a trigger in the Gov't trying to confiscate all American Weapons

Lee, I appreciate your insight and, yes, that would raise some hackles, probably nationwide.

And of course, any significant backlash would provide exactly the excuse needed to institute marshall law.

We all know where it goes from there.

Quote
In terms of historical records, the leaders of past empires weren't generally setting the best example

Much of the example set by these heads of state is followed to this day by our present governments, so point well taken.

Quote
predictions have indicated that there is hope for the smart, resilient and adaptable person

Hope so...that's been the case so far.

We need to re-establish our agricultural, construction, and manufacturing base

California huh? That makes three of us, I think Lee is in SF, I'm close to PS.

Like you, I think there's a pretty wide gap between what we 'need' and what's really going to happen.

As you pointed out:
* Agricultural is going more and more 3rd world.
* California is in it's 3rd (?) year of drought, farmers are losing market.
* Construction is on-hold except for public-works and Fed projects.
* Manufacturing is in China and points-east.
* Our cost of living is too high to for our labor-figure to compete with offshore producers/manufacturers.

So here's the conundrum: whether we like it or not, we exist in a Global economy. That ties all the major producers and consumers together. So when we have a downturn here in the states, the effects are telegraphed world-wide.

Speculators (including the investment banks, insurance underwriters, mutual funds/pensions/401s who drive the stocks) were essentially unregulated and allowed to run 'wide open' in the interest of 'free market' profiteering.

Here in the states, our investment gurus came up with the 'mortgage backed security' scam, it returned huge profits, the rest of the world bought-in to it and it blew-up in everybody's face.

So the worlds largest consumer now has less money to 'consume' with, China sells less stuff to us (so they buy less stuff), Europe's trade decreases, the world lays-off it's labor force and we're all stuck in 'idle' while waiting for economic anarchy.

Now let's look at the 'bailout'.

The money went to the big banks and to AIG (who underwrites the big banks), and I haven't forgotten the auto industry, but that's a separate issue.

This was supposed to loosen credit so businesses could operate and, hopefully, save businesses from failing so not as many workers would be affected and consumption (not to mention, taxes) wouldn't be impacted as drastically as it would have been otherwise.

The result: the banks took the money and ran with it, bought other banks and assets up, strengthened their positions and gave out huge bonuses...credit didn't loosen up enough to help the businesses that really needed it.

Small banks failed, businesses either failed or downsized as much as possible just to survive, some ended up turning a profit in the ensuing months, but none significantly increased their labor force...mass lay-offs continued.

The market gradually rebounded (bear rally), Wall Street is making money but on the street, there's no jobs on the horizon.

So how long can Wall Street 'suck the cream out of the twinky' before somebody notices that we -still- aren't consuming because there's no money on the street?

The answer is: They don't care. The 'American Plan' of investment economics is all about 'immediate' gains, here and now, 'I got mine'.

When investment houses talk about 'the long term' what they mean is 'Tomarrow' (but they definitely want -you- in it for as long as they can get you).

So, with all that under our belt, knowing that this is sort of like the eye of the hurricane (a brief calm spot before re-entering the malestrom), what do you think a guy should do?

Lee says 'watch and wait', be resourceful, use your street-smarts to make it through.

I say make a plan, get you resources together and shoot for sustainable independence.

What's your take on an individual solution, d3?

Tony
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: d3adp00l on September 22, 2009, 02:32:54 AM
The fact is we live in a forced global economy, and it ruins everyones economy. Lets take a look,

Mexico and US. It would seem like a good idea for us to get cheap labor, and for them to get better wages right? Well your wrong, bandage up that bleeding heart, and hand cuff that capitalist, here's why.

When mexicans come here, they get paid more than if they lived down there, well they take their earnings down there. So whereas before they were making the same as everyone else, now they have 10 times as much, and can afford the things they want. Here is where the problem starts. A businessman down there sees that these few have more than everyone else, well being the good little greed monger, I mean capitalist that he is, he cranks his prices up, out of the reach of the normal people, but still within reach of the migrant worker. Well now the mex business man is making the same or more than before, and dealing with many fewer transactions, he can layoff a few employees due to lower volume, and he is still making bank.

It artifically blows the market up.


On the other side of the border, Us business men hire lower paid mexicans, which means they can undercut their competion, and still make as much as befre, and with less to compete against, their business volume goes up, and they are making even more. This devalues the local labor to a point where they can't afford the costs of living. And the market price of goods stays high.

It artifically cuts the general worker off at the knees.


You can not mix economies, it benefits only a very few, and hurts everyone else. remember 1% is the upper class, 5% is the upper middle class, the middle class down to lower class are 74% of the population, poor are 20%, So the bulk of the people are hurt by this outsourcing nonsense. But the upper 6% make out like bandits.

FACT: Only raw materials should be allowed to cross borders of economies, anything that can be made inside an economy should be made in that economy.

Fact: diversification and cellular comparments are good and stable, one fails it doesn't effect the others, which means the others can help the failed one.

FACT: They know these things, and they know it will fail, they do this so that they can convince us to make a one world economy under their control. its really very simple and stupid. People who say they can't see this, are the ones who benefit from it.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on September 22, 2009, 03:08:25 AM
Lee, I appreciate your insight and, yes, that would raise some hackles, probably nationwide.  ...   And of course, any significant backlash would provide exactly the excuse needed to institute marshall law.  ...  Much of the example set by these heads of state is followed to this day by our present governments, so point well taken.
Exactly.  They don't necessarily who they step on, as long as they get what they want.

Quote
California huh? That makes three of us, I think Lee is in SF, (I, Lee, am in San Francisco)
I'm close to PS. (where's 'PS'?)

Quote
Like you, I think there's a pretty wide gap between what we 'need' and what's really going to happen.
I've clearly seen the cycles of history and the "boom-and-bust" sets of scenarios have always played out about the same way practically every time.

Quote
...So here's the conundrum: whether we like it or not, we exist in a Global economy. That ties all the major producers and consumers together. So when we have a downturn here in the states, the effects are telegraphed world-wide.  ...  So the worlds largest consumer now has less money to 'consume' with, China sells less stuff to us (so they buy less stuff), Europe's trade decreases, the world lays-off it's labor force and we're all stuck in 'idle' while waiting for economic anarchy.

Now it's a two-way street:
On PBS, Bill Moyer's Show, a guest economist told him the Chinese consumers were such a big player on the world scene, that if the Chinese consumer doesn't step up and replace the American consumer as a buying force to shore up the Chinese economy, that economy will suffer badly without any further influence from us.
As you may have said or implied, I also assert the ripple effect of this will be a money drought and a worsening recession---or depression with total collapse.

--Lee



Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: onthecuttingedge2005 on September 22, 2009, 03:15:41 AM
Hi d3.

Irish, German, Russian, Romanian, Italian, Roman, Indian, Mexican, Eskimoian, Turkish, British, French, Chinese, Mung, Vietnamese, Korean, African, Latino, you name it that is what makes up America. I know I left out some ethnics but please forgive my laziness of writing the entire list.

there is no such thing as America being a 'white mans' country, America is a mixing pot and has always been a mixing pot.

If Hispanics want to live in America then give them the chance, educate them and let them share our justice and freedom.

Racism coined the term, aliens.

Eskimo, Indians and Mexican were here in America before everyone else so who are the real aliens?

Just a German American who cares.
Jerry
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on September 22, 2009, 04:10:04 AM
Hi d3.

Irish, German, Russian, Romanian, Italian, Roman, Indian, Mexican, Eskimoian, Turkish, British, French, Chinese, Mung, Vietnamese, Korean, African, Latino, you name it that is what makes up America. I know I left out some ethnics but please forgive my laziness of writing the entire list.

there is no such thing as America being a 'white mans' country, America is a mixing pot and has always been a mixing pot.

If Hispanics want to live in America then give them the chance, educate them and let them share our justice and freedom.

Racism coined the term, aliens.

Just a German American who cares.
Jerry
Hey Jerry,
Since I'm a descendant of many of the ethnic groups on your list(going back to ancient times), I'd say from personal experience that the average person is mostly interested in living in peace and putting food on the table under a roof over his head.
It's a few ignorant! individuals who impose their will against others.  For that, they get what they deserve. (read: heavy karma)

BTW, my mother's maternal grandmother was primarily German.  Her father was a full German American whose ancestors were pious farmers from the Pfalz, in Germany.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: ATT on September 22, 2009, 04:56:26 AM
Quote from: the_big_m_in_ok
(where's PS)
Palm Springs. I'm in the high-desert, about 30 mi north.

The fact is we live in a forced global economy, and it ruins everyones economy. Lets take a look,

Sure, illegal immigration has hurt our job market, but it's not a major player by itself.

So has importing H1B-visa tech workers.
So has outsourcing phone-support and back-office work to India.
So has importing produce from South America.
So has selling our manufacturing plants to Japan and China.
So has exporting automotive assembly to Mexico.
So has outsourcing CAD, programming and graphics projects to Korea, China and India.
So has selling mortgages to unsophisticated, unqualified borrowers and then packaging the loans in AAA securities that are sold world-wide.

You get the idea.

It's the combined effect of 'accepted' predatory business practices that have the effect of deleting jobs from our economy and sending money out of the country, where it'll be spent at the above respective (offshore) locations.

And sure they know all this, but as I said in a previous post, 'they don't care', it's all about 'immediate gains' and 'I got mine'.

Now, if the regulatory environment is such that it's conducive to unfettered greed (greed is a great tool, almost as good as fear), the agenda setters say: 'so much the better'...why do you think the regulations (or lack thereof) are as they are?

Because those with the more 'ulterior' agenda control legislation (they 'own' the legislators).

Globalists? New-Worlders? One-Worlders? Communists? Socialists? Fascists?

Don't even bother, they're just labels. None of them would adequately describe what 'they' are (although the effects on the street may resemble many or even all of the above).

Which returns us to the last question in my previous post, since we can't 'save the world', how are you, individually, prepared to weather the storm?

Tony


Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on September 22, 2009, 06:09:36 AM
ATT said:
Quote
Palm Springs. I'm in the high-desert, about 30 mi north.
Very good.  My parents bought a place for recreation in Idyllwild before they retired.  Before that they bought a trailer to take camping trips to Joshua Tree Park in the high desert.

Quote
... You get the idea.
... It's the combined effect of 'accepted' predatory business practices that have the effect of deleting jobs from our economy and sending money out of the country, where it'll be spent at the above respective (offshore) locations.
... And sure they know all this, but as I said in a previous post, 'they don't care', it's all about 'immediate gains' and 'I got mine'.

...Which returns us to the last question in my previous post, since we can't 'save the world', how are you, individually, prepared to weather the storm?
Okay, I have a definite answer:
Money and gold are a waste of time and resources to own.  Can you eat either one?

Canned food, bottled water, soap, toothpaste&toothbrush, hammer&nails, axe&hatchet, miner's pickaxe&shovel, bow&arrow, matches&firestarter kits, camping equipment, guns&supplies of gun ammo reloading equipment, survival books bought and studied...
Here's a good one suggested by the SciFi author Robert Heinlein:  Have your son or daughter join the Scouts and him, her and you go camping.

You see?  In simple terms:  Imitate the Mormons in terms of food, but don't advertise it, or you'll become an inviting target for armed gangs.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: PinkRoses31 on September 22, 2009, 07:12:48 AM
I think the best recreation thing to do is to play a certain sport that will test your heart and muscle endurance; or clean the your whole house! In that case, you don't actually made just only an exercise but also you clean your house!


_________________
International travel medical insurance (http://www.mnui.com)
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: d3adp00l on September 22, 2009, 10:05:00 AM
I love it when people toss in the racism card, when you point out the fact that cross border commerce hurts both sides.

First i don't care what you call me.

Second what was done to the native peoples was an atrocity. But it was done
            and nothing now can change it.

Your comments on "aliens" etc. does not take away the validity of my points. So don't bring up an opinion which has nothing to do with the subject.

Its a distraction tactic.

I don't care where your from, what difference does it make in this discussion, none.

Again you and many others can't see the point past your own hangups.

Until you can get past the race card, and see how the actions of individuals affect the lives of those individuals you are missing the needed understanding to see the solution.

I would feel the same if the people doing this were white, purple or any other color.

The fact is this profit maximization theory of business that condones outsourcing of jobs for profit of the few, hurts everyone.

Again I make the point, people diversify their stocks into different separated areas for stability, then why in the hell and we consolidating the worlds economic system. Its insane, and hurts everyone but a very few.

Here are some more facts

Fact: people are different
Fact: they are different largly due to their location
Fact: those differences are interesting
Opinion: why would we want to melt everything to one pot, and loss our differences? That means everything would be the same the world over, screw that its boring.

Fact: some of us should not be around others. I know who I am, and I know that some types of people wouldn't want to live next to me, and I wouldn't want to live next to them, we have different kinds of lives. What is wrong with knowing your different, and wanting be seperate from those who you would annoy? Finding like minded people and being around them is not racism, its responsible action.

what do you people not understand about these things? when will you grow past where you are, and get to the point where many of us are, we don't care about race, we care about others and what is best for them and us, because you can have a situation thats good for both.


Again I repeat, my points stand, your comments are not relevant to the points I made.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: exxcomm0n on September 22, 2009, 02:49:29 PM
I agree with quite a few points made in this thread, but not all by any means.

Is a collapse coming? You better believe it!
USA gov't just did some cosmetic work to pretty up a bleak forecast for a little space of time, while making the "bottom" of the crash a LOT lower then it would have been had we had just tightened our belts and waited it out.

I think a good part of this came from going for the cheapest (Wal***t mentality).

If you spend your money with local business, most of it stays local and the dollar you spent buying your neighbors goods or services will probably make its way back to you in time.
Trying to save a few pennies or dollars by buying from a national or global retailer takes that money out of your area and puts it in the pocket of d3's "6%".
The 6% spend the majority of that money amongst themselves and it never makes it way back to your area killing your neighbors business.
Your neighbor no longer has money to spend where you work since they have fewer dollars to spend (if any) and are forced to buy the lowest price goods which takes the money out of the area the same way.
You get laid off (or your business fails) and you buy less, but still go to that "cheapest price" place to get the "most" for your money.

It's a very vicious circle, but it takes time and experience, or GOOD ECONOMIC EDUCATION to realize that cheaper is (most times) not better in terms of quality, selection, and/or local economic stability.

Part of that education is knowing the difference between a "want" and a "need".

A big screen TV or "Hummer" is not a need, it's just something media has convinced you that you need.

Anyway....on the topic of weathering the collapse:

1.) Get to know your neighbors and support their business, most times they'll return the favor.
If they don't, try another business as close to home as you can.

2.) Try to get a handle on good barter practices.
Barter sucks as it's a lot easier for someone else to price a good or service you need, but when money is scarce, barter makes a hell of a lot of sense.
Be aware that's gov't doesn't like it because it's a bitch to tax.

3.) Figure out how to to be the most self sufficient when it comes to feeding/sheltering your family or yourself.
It's a lot harder than it sounds, but societies used to function that way, no reason why they can't again.

4.) Stockpile knowledge as much as any other commodity.
Your ability to do something your neighbor can't may be the only thing you have to barter with for something you need.
When you do sell a service, do it like you were doing it for yourself. Quality and durability is going to become much more important than the cheapest price.

5.) Be aware of the news (from all kinds of outlets) and use those resources to make good reasoned decisions.
Most media these days is at least 70% fear based and there is no better candidate for being led by the nose than someone who's in a continual state of fear.
Most things led by the nose are on their way to slaughter.

These should be very basic concepts that anyone knows, but I'm always surprised at how many don't.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on September 22, 2009, 11:03:37 PM


If you think that you have a fairly firm grasp on all things money driven, this may be a bit of an eye opener for some...I have passing acquaintance with some these subjects on the site below...none of this really surprising when you consider human nature.

http://www.newpeopleorder.com/

" ALL CURRENCY IN THE WORLD IS TOXIC RESULTING IN THE FOLLOWING:

1. You are legally a debtor and chattel (property) owned by a hidden creditor. "


I consider myself 'unnumerate'...but it was easy for even me to understand after hearing these 2 guys being interviewed...coincidentally, this stuff has been eating away at me in the background for sometime, off and on...but more so lately.

Regards...

Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: ATT on September 22, 2009, 11:17:40 PM
Stockpile knowledge as much as any other commodity.

A couple of years ago, I started putting together resources I thought would be helpful if our infrastructure and access to information failed.

At first, it was just a collection of files with no particular organization but as I collected more resources, I decided they had to be more accessable and easier to use, so I thought about a database.

I run an Apache server locally that mirrors my web-server so I can test php code before uploading it to the main server. This means I also have a MySQL database available on my desktop machine, I figured this would be one way to organize my files (since that's how I drive my site).

But then I thought better of it.

What I needed was a way to access all my information easily, from one console with minimum software dependencies.

The other requirements were that it had to be self-contained, cross-platform compatible with *nix, win and mac and easy enough to maintain that it didn't require an IT guru.

I settled on PDF.

I built a directory-structure that was sensible (and extensable).
I converted any files I wanted to include to PDF (if they weren't already).
I stored the files in logical locations in the directory tree.

I then made another PDF file that was just a 'picture', since it's only purpose would be to act as a front-end. I then bookmarked every file I had put into my directory-tree from this front-end.

(I said it was technically 'easy', I didn't say it wouldn't be 'tedious').

The locations of the files on-disk do not have to reflect where they are shown on the bookmark nav-bar in Acrobat. Since bookmarks are just pointers, you are free to organize (or re-organize) the presentation-layer any way you see fit without moving any files on your drive.

The result was that any file (including full-books, which I have a lot of) could be accessed from this one location, the files are easily browsed and you can even have a modicum of 'searchability' since Adobe Reader includes that capability.

I've included a couple of screenshots of the setup, pretty much anybody can put this sort of thing together.

So far, it's about 1.5 Gigs. I used InnoSetup to build a distribution (setup) file so I could get a copy to my daughter and still maintain the directory structure, but it still weighs-in at over 700 megs after compressing, so it's not a downloadable item. I put it on a SanDisk and sent it to her.

You could do the same thing using HTML but it would require a browser, Acrobat Reader or another PDF browser-plugin and involve a lot of hand-editing anytime you wanted to add to the files you wanted your HTML to access.

With Acrobat, the work is reduced to pretty much a 'point and click' edit cycle and only requires Acrobat Reader (which is free) to access.

If you don't have Acrobat-Pro (which provides you with the Distiller printer-driver), you can substitute PDF-Creator, which is available free from sourceforge.net (you'll need this to convert and 'create' some PDF files to get this going, after all).

Although this is a self-sufficiency collection, you could do this for an 'overunity' collection (or any subject with a lot of reference material), as well.

Screenshots:
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: spoondini on September 22, 2009, 11:43:28 PM
This topic is not really an offshoot of the overunity discussions, but I couldn't help but chime in.

I've noticed a common theme regarding the economic calamity upon us due to outsourcing/offshoring and comments regarding how both countries sustain economic damage.

If this is true when I trade across an invisible line (say the Mexico/US border), then why is it not true when I trade across the invisible line between my home and my neighbors home or the invisible line between New York and New Jersey?

Should we stop trading all together and survive based only on our own productive efforts (can't use any tools you traded for....)?

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that it's obvious that trade and division of labor yield benefits to all involved - I make the pizza and you brew the beer and we exchange.  It has also been 'reasonably demonstrated' that the larger the trade area/more people involved the rewards become even greater.  The US grew to be an global economic powerhouse partially due to the inability of states to put up trade barriers between each other resulting in an ENOURMOUS marketplace.  Many nations have emulated the approach with neighboring nations, and liberalized internal trade, and one of the results has been an unarguable massive reduction in the % of the world population living in poverty.

So the question is, where is the invisible line that determines when trade is beneficial versus detrimental?
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: ATT on September 22, 2009, 11:58:16 PM
If you think that you have a fairly firm grasp on all things money driven, this may be a bit of an eye opener for some...http://www.newpeopleorder.com/

A few posts back, I listed a few marketing-ploys that are commonly used to separate people from their money.

To reiterate, the accepted formula is:

* Promote fear
* Suspend Disbelief
* Sell Hope

I'd say this guy knows his (marketing) stuff.

With this in mind, do you -really- think the guy that's promoting this is named Ronald MacDonald?

Whois Record
domain:                          newpeopleorder.com
created:                         26-Sep-2008
last-changed:                 15-Nov-2008
registration-expiration:     26-Sep-2009

nserver:                         ns57.1and1.com 74.208.2.9
nserver:                         ns58.1and1.com 74.208.3.8

status:                          CLIENT-TRANSFER-PROHIBITED

registrant-firstname:            Ronald
registrant-lastname:            Mac Donald

registrant-organization:        Complaint Magazine and News
registrant-street1:              18920 Hidden Valley Rd
registrant-pcode:                95446
registrant-state:                 CA
registrant-city:                   Guerneville
registrant-ccode:                US
registrant-phone:                +1.7078691993
registrant-email:               


If you're going to buy anything from this site, you'd better hurry up, it goes down on the 26th if he doesn't re-up soon.
.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: ATT on September 23, 2009, 12:20:31 AM
So the question is, where is the invisible line that determines when trade is beneficial versus detrimental?

It's not a physical boundary or a national border, it's the idea that profit can be increased by overly excluding the consumers who provide the income in the trade-circuit.

This results in diminishing returns as time goes on and has been exemplified repeatedly by the exodus of good paying manufacturing and other jobs from the U.S. economy.

Quote
If this is true when I trade across an invisible line (say the Mexico/US border), then why is it not true when I trade across the invisible line between my home and my neighbors home or the invisible line between New York and New Jersey?

Because the money stays in the country. Your neighbors buy things in the country. This creates and/or maintains yet other jobs in the country.

Quote
The US grew to be an global economic powerhouse partially due to the inability of states to put up trade barriers between each other resulting in an ENOURMOUS marketplace

The difference here is that there is a normalization of labor costs in states and countries that enjoy roughly the same standard of living. Largely, the States are contiguous, and so it is with Europe so economic interchange has commonly beneficial results.

How would the above compare the standard of living in China or Mexico?
That's why labor costs in those countries are a fraction of U.S. or European costs.

Do they buy U.S. goods with the wages paid by U.S. concerns for their labor?
They can't afford them.

Have the U.S. manufacturing facilities that used to produce these goods been shut down?
Yes

Are those incomes and the resulting tax-base now diminished?
Yes.

There is a balance that needs to be struck if a sustainable economy is to be maintained.

No argument needs be made, just look at the economic conditions that prevail currently.

Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: ATT on September 23, 2009, 05:37:56 AM
.
Here's some stuff that goes along with my last post:

In China, one factory owner is bemoaning the fact that wages have risen to an average of $160/mo (that's about $1.00/hr if based on a 40 hr week.)
(2009 - Business Week)
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_13/b3977049.htm

In Mexico, workers in U.S. auto factories have conceded to lower their wages  to compete with pressures from China, some positions as low as $1.50/hr
(2008 - mlive.com, Michigan)
http://www.mlive.com/business/index.ssf/2008/06/mexicos_auto_unions_agree_to_c.html

With wages like that, how much economic reciprocity do you think those workers can manage in buying US or EU goods?

Example: How many jobs are -really- wiped out when a U.S. auto factory closes?
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/08/28/MN6919EL3P.DTL

The dollar's going down:
http://www.reuters.com/article/usDollarRpt/idUSTKW00658220090922

More jobs are wiped out, the tax-base reduced, more government funding required to deal with the jobless and medically uninsured, more financial insolvency leading to bankruptcy, more foreclosures and loan defaults, collateral-layoffs from dependent businesses, the Fed prints more money, the Dollar's losing value, maybe there's something I'm not seeing here about why it's good to let Free-Trade have 'Free-Reign'.
.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on September 23, 2009, 06:04:53 AM
ATT said:
Quote
Example: How many jobs are -really- wiped out when a U.S. auto factory closes?
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/08/28/MN6919EL3P.DTL
My thoughts exactly.  35,000 - 50,000 total by ripple effect.  When people stop trying to look for work, the unemployment rate effectively doubles.  The official rate in CA is 12.2% this month.  About 25% unofficially.

Quote
The dollar's going down:
http://www.reuters.com/article/usDollarRpt/idUSTKW00658220090922
That's why buying and selling currency for profit is stupid.  Nobody eats quarters(without serious gastric problems(!)   :o   ::)   :P 
Commodities are a better way to go.  Barter is a better way to go.  More human supervision of quality(If you don't like it, walk away).
Less planned obsolescence.


Quote
More jobs are wiped out, the tax-base reduced, more government funding required to deal with the jobless and medically uninsured, more financial insolvency leading to bankruptcy, more foreclosures and loan defaults, collateral-layoffs from dependent businesses, the Fed prints more money, the Dollar's losing value, maybe there's something I'm not seeing here about why it's good to let Free-Trade have 'Free-Reign'.
.
It's a vicious cycle, all right.  But as long as human nature is greedy, nothing will change for the better.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: onthecuttingedge2005 on September 23, 2009, 06:16:42 AM
How will Barter support our Military that protects our country from invaders?

nobody will want to join the military on a retirement of Barter either.

that is the only reason why Barter won't work in America.

I am not against Barter but I am against losing our military defences in the good old USA.

How about buying a new C-5 Galaxy Class or even a AC-130
or our latest stealth fighters on Barter? A-10 Warthogs for a shipment of Bananas? Passenger Jets for a cargo of pop tarts?

won't work.
Jerry
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on September 23, 2009, 06:49:40 AM
How will Barter support our Military that protects our country from invaders?
that is the only reason why Barter won't work in America.
I anticipate the economy to collapse like the Roman Empire did in the Fifth Century.  They all do.  No exceptions.

The various reasons for this to happen are posted above.

Barter may be all that's left.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: nightlife on September 23, 2009, 07:02:53 AM
Our economy's are colasping as have all in the past and that is due to our own greed.
 Human beings are greedy by nature. No one wants to be equal, at least not the majority.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: d3adp00l on September 23, 2009, 07:10:58 AM
Ok Some info on economics,

I agree with you on all your points exxcom, But heres the rub, getting small businesses for a lot of things is not a possibilty in this business structure, there is so much regulation that no one can do it and make any money. This is a shame and will change.

But to blame normal people who barely get by for shopping from walm@rt isn't really going to give a solution. Remember to put the blame of their actions squarely on wal  marts shoulders. They made the choices not to buy their products from the US. Its easier to change that one decision than millions, and yet the result is the same.

On your enumerated points, RIGHT THE F ON!!!!! exactly
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: d3adp00l on September 23, 2009, 07:13:55 AM
I really want a copy of that info att, is there anyway to get a copy.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: d3adp00l on September 23, 2009, 07:32:10 AM
The invisable line, I asked myself this same question, where is the line and why.

The line exists when a different measure of labor is used, we normally refer to this as money. When you outsource you open a hole in the monetary system which can only be fixed by making more money.

The correction to this is to only import raw materials, and to never import more than you export, this means that the money in the society stays there, and the monetary supply is stable.

Does this limit business from making profit, yes, do I care NO. Businesses exist because the community in which it exists allows it to, this business owes its exsistance to the community that created it, and it should exist only to benefit the community, not to hurt it.

Now these companies can open in other countries, but what happens in those countries stays there.

For example GE, it has stuff here, and in france (among others) the french version should keep its finances completely separate, and it should operate as a stand alone body, the CEO's of each branch can get together and establish company wide policies, and make commitments for purchasing for both versions, but they can't mix funding.

This really benefits GE, How? here, if the french version goes into the toliet it doesn't affect the amercian version finicially, meaning that it doesn't lay off people in the community it exists in. Now what does the french version do? well it restructres and comes back, or goes away.

As far as establishing a business in a new location, GE could take representives to a new country, lets say XYZ, they can establish the proper business entity by attracting investors, they can show how well the company has done in other countries and get venture capital, they then find and hire local people, and the company can share intellectual property only. It can only share its ideas, and methods, but they must be implimented in that local country. The employees representing the company are only marketers.

So why would they get bigger and go multi national if they cant share profits, it still gives them the purchasing power, and size they crave and state is so needed for them to do what they do. They can use all the talent from other countires to gain ground and develope new technologies, they just cant move money and product around, but ideas can move.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: d3adp00l on September 23, 2009, 07:53:03 AM
Ok economic systems, barter vs fiat currency.

Lets look at the effectiviness of our monetary system.

I work 40 hours, supposely for 25 per hour
   I earned 1000.00 dollars right?
             Take out taxes directly   750.00
             so I worked 40 hours and got 30 hours worth of money.

Now I go spend that money, here sales tax is 10%
so now I am down to 27 hours

A good portion goes to gasoline which is taxed more calced it works out to around 3 % of the total, so now I am at 24% (since the gas was purchased from the 30 hours income)

24 hours so far, now the products I bought supported the tax base of the company I bought it from, approx. 7% of the sales price is their taxes, which I pay, so I really got 22.3 hours worth of goods.

I also pay for the profit margin of the company approx 15% (from the 24 hours) so18.72 hours worth of goods, take out credti interests (mortgage and cards, and vehicle) and we can safely round that number down to 15 hrs

so I work 40 hours, and I get 15 hours worth of goods or services in exchange, THATS ONE HELL OF A DEAL. And we havent touched property tax, your local police tax, car registration, and on and on and on.

without all of that you get 37.5% of your hour worked in this system.



Lets look at barter, I work 1 hour for you, in exchange for you to work 1 hour for me. I got 100% of my hour in exchange, a perfectly efficient transaction.

Now if you deal with people who do not operate with the "Profit Maximization" business model, but they operate with the "fair and reasonable" business model then you can do hour for hour transactions all day long.

All you have to agree on is that your hour is worth mine, I don't care what you do, we all are limited in the time we will be here, and there is nothing more valuable than time we can not buy more time. So if you think your life is more valuable than mine, you are just a greedy bastard.

If you stood next to a cliff and watched someone fall, we you know damned well you could have saved them, I would say you indirectly murdered them.

People love to use doctors at this point, saying that their time is worth more than mine, and that I would pay anything if my wife or children needed the doctors help. If a doctor used my position (hanging from a cliff) to maximized his profit because of the threat of harm that might come to my loved one, he might as well have indirectly killed them.

Better yet, he might as well hold a gun to their head and demand me give him money, at least that form of robbery is honest.

People now say, well they have to spend so much on school. Thats only because the school knows how much they will make when they get out, again profit maximization, if it was hour for hour type transactions, then they wouldn't have a debt when they got out.

Again your life is not worth more than mine, and not worth less than mine either.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: d3adp00l on September 23, 2009, 08:28:17 AM
Jerry I am sorry but you are very ignorant. You do not have even a cursory understanding of how our taxes get spent, or where most of them come from. This is unfortunately very common. Please educate yourself, start here.

Your example is poor at best, and completely irrelevant.

You want defence, ok sure, first off, the fedral gov, should only be able to tax incoming and outgoing raw materials. Do you have any idea how much raw material we would export if we only exported raw materials? Imported also? The numbers are mind bogeling. But again would it be enough? Maybe not, (more probably it would) The current mil budget is around 480 billion.

Limiting the amount of money the feds can get would limit their spending, some we need, it takes away their blank check to endebt the next 4 generations.

We export trillions of tons of materials now, they get their cut of both the import and export, just think how much oil we import. You should get the idea.

Next place the feds can get money is to ASK the state governments, this means not only does congress and senate get to vote on it, the governer and state have to vote on it. This puts the control of the spending of money much closer to the people and their voting.

Back to barter, barter works for small transactions, but large ones done by businesses and govs has to use a place holder for the barter system/hour system, in order to have these notes you have to become a business, and to do business with these businesses you have to trade for these notes, this puts the taxation on those notes in plain view for all to see and understand.

You have a choice at that time, buy from a business, or buy by barter, which ever gets you what you want is a choice you can make, now you have the power of choice, and the ability to vote with your time/money.

Local governments are the only ones able to tax a busniess, and businesses are they only ones who pay tax, so if you don't like what your governements are doing, then take your money away, BY CHOICE. These local governements pay a portion of their gathered tax to the state, since the city exists in the state it pays its membership fees to the states,

the states pay its membership fees to the feds, a set percentage across the board, anything above that set percentage has to be a choice made at each level.

This means that elected officials will think long and hard before spending your money, they are very close to you at the local level. and your vote does count for something to them.

if a state gets a fedral money request, the state then approves it and sends the request to the local governement. if you don't like it, then you rally against it. If your local gov decides to pay, then vote them out.

If a local government doesnt pass the request, then they don't pay, if 40% of the cities veto the request, and 60% passes it, then the 60% pay the amount requested of them individually, the other don't pay.

If a state doesn't pass the request then it doesn't pay.

This means that statistacally the feds would get most of the money requested, IF it was a reasonable request. If not they don't get much money. If they don't do what they promised with the money, then they must pay it back. This means, that if they come up with a request, that kinda sucks, and they are only going to get 40% of the requested money, and that 40% won;t get the job done, then they recind the request, and don't take the money. because they know they will fail with too little money, and they don't want to pay from their own income. (imports/exports)

Or they can re-request more money from the willing states, or they can re-request from all states, but this time they need to convince us its worth while to spend the money.

Law making would work similarly, putting laws that affect individuals as close to the individual as possible.

this means the feds can't make laws that take rights away from us. If they want to do that, then they need to amend the damned constitution.

They have circumvented the ratification process, by making statute laws.

ACTS ARE NOT LAWS. acts have the power of law, only if you agree to the contract, and then it ACTS as a law. Its an ACT of the fedral governement ON YOU.

We need to teach these things in our public schools.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: ATT on September 23, 2009, 04:46:51 PM
I really want a copy of that info att, is there anyway to get a copy.

Sheeze, d3, you're on a roll, you stay up all night on this stuff?

You keep this up and you'll have the worlds problems all solved before the rest of us have a chance to get -our- licks in (and that wouldn't be any fun, huh?).

Anyway, what info is that?

Tony

Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: exxcomm0n on September 23, 2009, 09:42:55 PM
<snip>
I agree with you on all your points exxcom, But heres the rub, getting small businesses for a lot of things is not a possibilty in this business structure, there is so much regulation that no one can do it and make any money. This is a shame and will change.

Thank you d3. I didn't think you would have issue with any of the suggestions I laid out, and I'm glad that was a correct assumption.
These were laid out as suggestions because of the fact that freedom to choose is one of the most important rights the country I'm from (USA) was formed under, even though it may not be reflected in its (USA gov't) present day aims.

As to how the change you cite above will happen, there are 2 ways I see.

1.) Trying to legislate them out of existence.

2.) Mass refusal to live in fear of incarceration or persecution for refusing to obey those laws.

#1 has been tried time and again and has a very, very high failure rate.
#2 seems to be very faintly  removed from complete anarchy, but does historically have some rather compelling evidence as to its effectiveness.

I'll leave it up to the individual as to which they deem best, but would like to offer the reason why I see these as the 2 major ways major change happens and why one may be more effective than the other.
It was a sci-fi short story I read when young and impressionable called "And Then There Were None" (no, not the Agatha Christie story of the same name.)

Read it here: http://www.abelard.org/e-f-russell.php and see why it could have made such an impression on me. There are many other pieces of literature that say the same thing, but none I know of that are as easy and entertaining to read and understand.

P.S. #2 only works when you refuse to allow fear to rule your actions. Bravery is doing something even though you fear it for one reason or another. It takes others seeing your refusal to fear to empower them to make the same choices as you.

But to blame normal people who barely get by for shopping from walm@rt isn't really going to give a solution. Remember to put the blame of their actions squarely on wal  marts shoulders. They made the choices not to buy their products from the US. Its easier to change that one decision than millions, and yet the result is the same.

I do blame the individual for walm@rt mentality (nice allegorical reference and much less ambiguous than mine), but not completely by any means. The reason I feel this way you point out in a later post:

Businesses exist because the community in which it exists allows it to, this business owes its exsistance to the community that created it, and it should exist only to benefit the community, not to hurt it.

I blame walm@rt administration for the little regard for the ramifications of their actions, and gov't for making that expansion and exportation so easy with tax breaks that allowed them to occupy the entire country in a relatively short time.

Walm@rt made the choices they did because they were rewarded for them with higher profits. The only way those profits occurred was because people allowed them to.
I can't fault people for making the "hard and fast" decision to maximize their purchasing dollar, but I can blame them for not thinking farther than that as to the ramifications of those decisions.
Walm@rt (and MANY other businesses!) and gov't just made it possible and easier for them to not think farther into the long range implications of their actions because TIME to think seems the scarcest commodity we have these days.

On your enumerated points, RIGHT THE F ON!!!!! exactly

Good to know I'm not alone. ;)

On some of the other points d3 and others make in later posts, I'd like to offer my 2¢ (I just noticed again the near impossibility to type that cent character. Hmmmmmmmm.....)

Money vs. Barter.

Money used to be almost the same as barter as you got a physical good (metallic coin) in payment for a good or service. You can do other things with that metal besides exchange it. You can fashion a tool or good from it, use it as a weight, etc.
It was still taxed (as it was manufactured by gov't of one type or another), but it had value outside just the idea of its worth.

Money (larger denominations anyway) then became an IDEA represented by a paper note that has little other use besides its destruction as you cannot use it for any other purpose besides exchange that will not destroy its perceived value in some way.
It has no use that can be converted back into either: an exchangeable form if it is used for another purpose, or a good that is equal to the value it had as money.

You're taxed if you make money, you're taxed when you spend money, you're taxed if you save money. That makes it very easy to reason that money = tax, and it's not always the tax you see clearly printed out.
The other "hidden" tax is the disproportionate percentage of that spent dollar that goes to one of these:

a.) The materials and machining to make the product
b.) The labor it takes to make and sell the product
c.) The administration that creates and governs the manufacture and sale of the product

Where do you think the largest percentage goes to? Why is that the place?

If you chose c, it's my opinion you are correct.
I don't think its irresponsible to reward that administration for the risks it took to create that manufacture, but I do think it's irresponsible for them to reward themselves again and again for taking that risk when it no longer is a risk by disproportionately taking a larger and larger percentage as time goes on.

Barter seems to mostly ignore the part c as that part is assumed to be in parts
 a and b, and rightly should be.
People used to have and go to "barn raisings", and not just because of immediate personal benefit if it was their barn, but the benefit it afforded the community which came back in little benefits for everyone that over time that greatly outweighed immediate reward.

This dovetails nicely into the next point.

Local vs. foreign

The money saved by administration in exporting jobs to a cheaper environment works until those exports raise the standard of living in the land to which they were exported to the point where that country's standard of living supersedes the standard of living in the exporter country. Then wages and prices become higher there than they are "locally", and the pattern shifts back the opposite way.
It takes decades (if not longer) for this shift to happen, but history seems to have proven that it does in fact happen that way.

The people in the countries exported to benefit in the short run depending on whom is "cheaper" @ the moment, but who ALWAYS benefits?

Seems to me those that always benefit owe no allegiance to a country, but to the segment of society they are in, and act accordingly. It doesn't matter which country they are in, it matters how much they control that country (or those countries).

These OPINIONS I outline above seem to be very close to, if not outright communism. Does that mean we should go out and destroy the rich with physical force and abolish the notion of administration?

No.

Even communism has administration, and time has proved it can be as corrupt and self serving as any other form of gov't.
You can't have a society without some SORT of administration unless every individual is blessed with equal intelligence, and that just won't ever happen.
It all depends on what type of administration we choose to allow to happen.

My opinion is that we should stop obscenely rewarding a very small percentage of society for its administration, and that will only happen when a "hundredth monkey" paradigm shift occurs due to EDUCATION and reasoning. Things most don't seem to have TIME for these days.
Those that do have the time to think about these things (and seem to be paid for it) seem to be in administration. Hmmmmm.........

These are opinions only, and are worth what you paid for them = nothing (to simplify things greatly by not counting the cost of your PC, the time it took to learn to use it, the cost of your electricity to power it, the cost of your internet service, and the time spent to come to this thread and read my opinions).
They ONLY have worth if you take the time to think about why I might have personally felt it was worth my time to write them, how they could be reasoned to be right or wrong, and to take the time to post a response.

I invite debate on any and all opinions I have written as I value the time you may take to teach me their errors, if that's the way you choose to use your time and address them, as much as you've valued my opinions by choosing to respond to them. ;)

Now since I have no job bringing money in, I have to go spend my TIME weatherproofing the house so the little "extra" money I would otherwise spend inefficiently heating it can be saved this year, and next year, and the year after that to the greater benefit of myself and my community by forcing administration at the power company to lower costs because I need (pay) them less.
I'm only reason I'm here (OU) is because the only probable way I see the power company administration cutting costs (by cutting administrative wages or "workers", instead of cutting workers from other segments of the utility or buying cheaper foreign fuels), is if I (and many others) prove how much less they are needed via the profits they make.

Why didn't I just do that before when I had a job?
Because I didn't think I had the time it takes to invest in myself and my community that way.
Hmmm.......It seems time, and how I choose to spend it is the most important commodity I have.

See a pattern?  ;)
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on September 23, 2009, 10:21:37 PM
exxcomm0n said:
Quote

Good to know I'm not alone. ;)
Almost out of time on this computer, but I strongly agree with what you and some of the others say.
Think on your feet and think for yourself!

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: d3adp00l on September 24, 2009, 07:27:26 AM
att i was refering to that pdf. is that yours? i was under that impression.

Since a corporation is a legal fiction, and entity that exists by the will of the people, for the benefit of the people, it does not have the rights human beings have.

We have the right given to us by God to earn profit, to contract work, to sell goods, etc.

Businesses which employee humans and corporations do not have those rights, since we created them, we exist as a higher level of authority, but below God. As such we have the right to tell these entities what they can and can't do.

Personally I believe that a business should have the right to pay its employees, and to earn 10% profit, of which 5% is paid as a tax to the community in which it exists.

Corporations have the right to earn 20% profit, 10% of which is to be a tax paid to the community in which it exists.

Pay of people in a business or corporation should be limited.

This keeps the admin from simply paying themselves a rediculous amount and there by lowering their "profit".

People should trade hour for hour, regardless of their skill, or if they are working outside their skill.

Yes I do believe this. I am an electrician, if you ask me to dig a ditch, it is still taking my time, and lets say I suck at digging a ditch, in this system you would want to pay me less, But I say we should pay eachother the same rate no matter what. WHY?
Here is why, This will make people pay more attention to who you ask to do what. If you need a trench dug, you should find out who has a good reputation for digging trenches fast.

This makes people responsible for their own actions, if you don't do your homework, well then you learn. If you are trying to false advertise, you will be found out quickly.

This normally gets people wound up, "but I can't earn what I am worth, how can I get benefit from being good at what I do?, and on and on.

Heres how, if you suck, people won't ask you to work for them, so you must work for yourself in your field, to feed yourself, This will keep you from harming others, and will give you the ability to feed yourself.

If you are honorable and good at what you do, your reputation will be your reward, and people will seek you out to do work for them, and you will benefit from the fact that you will always be busy.

If you are really good at what you do, people will ask you to teach them, and in exchange for that you get to earn 5% profit on their time, and you get to help the community by paying 5% tax for the privilage of earning profit on others, 10% and 10% if you have stockholders and are a corp.

The stockholders are the owners of a corp, and they have the privilage to earn 10% on their investment, if they need a skilled person to run the corp, then they can hire someone and offer them part ownership.

Yes the individuals who buy things will have to pay more for a product made by a corp, but they know that extra money will benefit the community, and they get the benefit from a larger business for its stability.

This system will benefit all, and put the power in the hands of the people.

If you want to shirk your governments BS, then stop buying from businesses, this restricts their money, and riens them in, so you have an imediate, and direct recourse for your grievance against them. You don't have to wait years so you can try and vote someone else in, especially when in this system you are given only two real choices, and both are just as bad as the other.

Also, polictical parties should be illegal, just like gangs are. They hurt our communities, not help them.

I have an entire system for the election of officals.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: d3adp00l on September 24, 2009, 07:52:50 AM
I have spent a lot more than one night thinking this out, analyzing the intent of the constitution, and the assumptions of the founding fathers. Not because they were the ultimate intelect, but they have experience that I don't and they had a system that benefited the people.

Hour for Hour, a little more info.

Let me ask you this, what is the largest single investment most of us will make?  Our home right.

at the peak of the market 500-600k was no big deal.

Lets say you bought that home for a bargain of 350k.

So what does that mean to you? Well if your a highly skilled worker you make around 25-30 per hour (if you also manage a crew normally)

So lets look at what that 30 year mortgage means to you. After interest you pay 2X the purchase price for the home (for simple math, I could amertize it, but...)

So 700K total cost to you, and you make 30 per hour, that means 23,333 hours of work to pay off that house and thats if you take 30$ home, taking taxes into consideration, it takes around 31,111 hours, if you paid every penny to the house, thats 14 years at 40 hours a week and 52 weeks a year.

14 YEARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

are you insane?!?!?!?!

Do you know what it takes to build a house? well I do, it takes 400 manhours, and an equal dollar value in materials. Most contractors charge around 75 per hour so 30,000 in labor and 30,000 in materials. But lets go back to hours. 400 hours labor, and 400 hours worth of material

Thats 800 hours, Lets double that just to give room for error, so 1600 hours.

1600 hours is 40 weeks, or .769% of a year. Now I want you to think about this, could you build a house in that time? 40 weeks? Yes you could, I personally could do it less than half that time.

Do you now see how if you agree to trade hour for hour, how much you benefit. Sure you COULD charge twice what someone else does, but when you do, so does everyone else, and guess what you pay 14 years for what should cost you less than a year.

So by letting go of your short sited short term benefit, you gain huge amounts of life long benefit. You no longer need to try and get the absolute most money for your time, you just saved 1/2 to 1/3 of your adult life, imagine what else you could do.

How do you think we have so many people sitting on their ass pushing papers, both in govern, and in private businesses, because those of us who actually work are giving them our time our earnings so they can get paid.

Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: exxcomm0n on September 24, 2009, 08:36:40 AM
@ ATT

I think d3 is meaning your PDF collection of useful knowledge you showed a screen shot of.

Come to think of it, I wouldn't mind a copy myself, if you would please sir.

I have a little library of my own that I'd be willing to barter/share, but not NEARLY as nice or organized as your "one stop shop"  PDF solution. ;)

If size is an issue, could you burn it to DVD and send that if you were paypal'd postage and disk charges?

The directory listing isn't truly representative as some are sorted, some are not.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: d3adp00l on September 24, 2009, 08:38:04 AM
ya that. I would love a copy of wikipedia too, but I dont think you can get that since it can change.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: X00013 on September 25, 2009, 02:48:37 AM
It really is that simple. If the people of the United States KNEW somthing, they would burn down every factory the GOV gave money too. The real working people of the American World would burn wall street, and then and only then would the rest of the world understand that America is a free world. That WE the people only want want food water and shelter from the govs and CORPs that control fake gold for the american, dont get me fukn fukn started, I'll blow the whole fukn place up. Obama and every president before him up before the Brits invaded can suk my w-2/1099/ and some new form,  I call it " I grow my own food here's my fuckn shotgun up your fuckn ass US.GOV, sorry sir I filed my .22 up ur wifes , she liked no? Damn that Congressman, had i u known she liked big dick I could have had the guy making my guns fuck her" trust me , the gun makers wife wouldnt know, MWAHH
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: ATT on September 25, 2009, 06:57:52 AM
att i was refering to that pdf. is that yours? i was under that impression.
Come to think of it, I wouldn't mind a copy myself, if you would please sir.
 
Guys, this collection was intended for personal use only and is in no way fit for public distribution, I'm sure you can guess why.

The post about using Acrobat to 'front-end' your file collection was intended as a 'helpul hint' or 'howto' on one way I found to centralize your file-access making it easier to navigate.

Give it a try, if you think a blow-by-blow 'instructable' would be in order, I'll put one together, but it's pretty self-explanatory as-is.

Tony
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: exxcomm0n on September 25, 2009, 07:43:37 AM
Hi Tony,

I can completely sympathize with the issues of possible legality of "sharing" purchased books, and thank you for taking the time to reply to us.
I hereby withdraw my request.

Your suggestion about building a database of DIY info is a very good one though, and as you see from my last post, is not something that I haven't thought of myself (although mine is not NEARLY as nice as yours).

I think I'll go for the web front end as I can hack up an index.html pointing to the docs in my files system easier than using Acrobat 5 (the newest copy i have) to build a front end.

Thank you for the suggestions though! You've got a nice library there!
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on September 26, 2009, 05:25:43 AM
Canned tuna from the store will last 20 years.Sugar as long as it stays dry will last 100 years.Honey never spoils.Learn the shelf lives of different foodstuffs and stock up on them.Also you can stock up on bars of soap and packs of smokes(shelf life about 6 months to a year,then they are dry).Bars of soap and packs of smokes are useful for barter.Just some useful info I thought I would toss in here.Cranberry sauce only lasts a year.Chlorine bleach 6 months.Triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on September 26, 2009, 06:41:55 AM
@triffid, with respect to your post #90:
Very good.  Couldn't have said it better myself.  Just don't buy large quantities suddenly and then let anyone see you hide it.  If you do let them, they could come looking for it later.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: ATT on September 26, 2009, 07:20:22 AM
.
Canned tuna from the store will last 20 years.Sugar as long as it stays dry will last 100 years.

Thanks Triffid, real good info.

For me, the best of all possible worlds would be to relocate to an area where there was water available even if utilities went down, a reasonable growing season, wood for heating, game you could hunt, fish you could catch, sun and/or hydro-power you could harness and neighbors you could count on as they count on you (but not too many, not too close).

Sounds pretty idyllic huh? There's still a lot of country out there just like that.

The keyword, at least for me, is 'sustainable', which means you can 'keep it going' once you set things in motion, so I have to commit to being 'in position' in time to deal with coming events, which fortunately, I can do since I don't have to live where I work or depend on a job for income because I have a decent retirement.

But the object here is to get to the point where 'income' is superfluous, because real value lies not in what you have, but in what you know and what you can do with your knowledge (you have to possess the background and skills -the 'chops'- it's going to take to pull it off, books alone won't save you).

Money's not going to buy much in the not too distant future anyway, so spend it while it's still able to get you things that will matter in the long run.

Having your stash together is important (we learned to do that out here a long time ago with fires, floods and earthquakes) but getting to a place where you can produce the things you need for your stash is the 'brass ring'.
.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: d3adp00l on September 26, 2009, 10:37:36 AM
been puttin things together for sustainable living for a few years now. Pulsefuelnerd is on the land now breaking in some of the equipment and techniques.

A good library on farming would be good. But then again you need to understand that ALL the food you eat is GMO and can't be replanted from the seeds of the food. Heirloom seeds have a few definitions, seeds that strain is older than 50 years, some say 100 years, but the main point is this you can harvest the seeds and replant them.



So I think we can assume that everyone posting are in agreement, that the economic situation will continue to degrade.

specifically how, or yes is of minor contrivances.

Does anyone think the the economy will get better, and our debts less?
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: ATT on September 26, 2009, 05:54:07 PM
.
But then again you need to understand that ALL the food you eat is GMO...Heirloom seeds...you can harvest the seeds and replant them.


All good points, and, yes, everything these days is GM in one way or another. An Heirloom stash is a must and staying in touch with other heirloom growers who you can trade seed with is a good idea too.

A lot of vegetables become 'localized' to their environment over time (they actually adapt to suit conditions, which may include making it easier for pests) so trading seeds helps to promote diversity and maintain healthier harvests.

Because all plants do this, the term 'heirloom' pretty much just means the seeds are viable and will reproduce, it doesn't necessarily mean you're eating the same tomato that was grown in 1867 (even though it may have come from that stock, originally).

If you grow in an area that has commercial farming nearby, take stock of what's being produced on the commercial farms, you don't want to cross-pollinate with any Monsanto(tm) GM produce, so grow something else instead and trade with others (farmer's market) who live in other locations for the produce you don't grow yourself.

Self-sufficiency and sustainable living takes a lot of work, a lot of know-how and goes a lot better if you 'network' with others like yourself (both near and far) to share your experience, knowledge, ideas, help, seeds and trials.

Tony
.


Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on September 26, 2009, 05:54:28 PM
author=d3adp00l said:
Quote

Does anyone think the the economy will get better, and our debts less?
I took the liberty of creating a poll to reflect the thought above.  Then I voted against the economy improving.  History is replete with examples if boom-and-bust cycles of human, cultural and business activity.

NOTE:
The polls and title bars of posts cannot be spell-checked.  I *should* proof read them more diligently.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: ATT on September 26, 2009, 06:18:50 PM
Does anyone think the the economy will get better, and our debts less?

Well, *THE* economy will do some smoke-and-mirrors jumps and dives, fits and starts and eventually go down for the count.

While our 'personal' economies could be stable, not reliant on global economics and not dependent on FOREX dollar/euro values...If we put ourselves (individually) in a sustainable position.

So some economies will be OK and others won't do so well.

Tony
.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on September 26, 2009, 06:29:36 PM
ATT said:
Quote
Well, *THE* economy will do some smoke-and-mirrors jumps and dives, fits and starts and eventually go down for the count.
I had thought of adding the poll option:  "No, it'll decline slowly as it's been doing" but I didn't know ahead of time someone might think of it.

Oh, well, too late to change it now, I think.

--Lee
 
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: ATT on September 26, 2009, 06:45:30 PM
I had thought of adding the poll option:  "No, it'll decline slowly...

I think you got it right, Lee. I said 'fits and starts', I didn't necessarily mean that to be slow.
(but I currently think we're looking at 3-5 yrs, subject to revision...)

Tony
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: exxcomm0n on September 26, 2009, 09:05:24 PM
Hi Gents,

I think you're correct on quite a few points. Being outside of larger metropolitan areas is ALWAYS a good thing in my opinion, mostly since most of the modern day conveniences now seen as necessities are still not available out in the country and so the people act accordingly.

They plan when they shop because the convenient store is just as many miles away as the regular one.

They know how to fix most (if not all) machinery they rely on as a service call  run into some serious money. They also try to fix older machinery as it was built without the aim of planned obsolescence.

Recycling happens @ home, and is not "destroy and remake", but reuse (and not always in the way of the products original use).

You know your neighbors!

On the point d3 makes about heirloom vs. GMO I'd like to throw out the suggestion that, if possible, try to frequent farmers markets in your area. These farmers (but NOT all of them) are interested in growing sustainable crops where the product that doesn't sell this year can be used for seeds next year.
Make sure to talk to them and find out farming practices as some things at a farmers market are the same things you get in stores, but with a marked up price.
(BTW, Monsanto is one of the very few businesses I would like to see completely eradicated from the face of the earth!)

They know the "tricks" for raising hormone and antibiotic free livestock, and livestock will be VERY important for food (meat, CHEESE, milk, eggs), clothing (wool, leather, feather down), and working stock (horses/oxen). Veterinary knowledge and animal husbandry will be important as well.

Here's a strange one........mushrooms.
Ones like portebellas, shitakes, maitakes, oyster, puffballs, etc. are pretty easy to raise, need little area and care to grow, and have very high protein content

EDIT:
As much as it might be against the law were you are, HEMP will be an important product to raise. The pressed seed stock is what "gruel" was made from when the oil was pressed out of it and very nutrient/protein rich. It also makes good clothes and paper (in fact, worn out clothes were used for making paper back in the day).

EDIT 2: Re: triffids post. They do now sell large bags of tobacco for RYO (roll your own) that may store/freeze better than cigarette packs and tobacco seed might be a good crop to grow a small patch of for barter.

EDIT 3: Some good products to stockpile might be cocoa and coffee. tins of cocoa and cans of coffee should last quite a few years. A great re-use for 5 gallon plastic buckets is storing large quantities of dry goods. It works especially well if the buckets are filled with a heavy non-reactive gas like CO2 or nitrogen, filled with the dry good, and then sealed. When storing anything, oxygen and water are your biggest concerns.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on September 27, 2009, 01:52:36 PM
I recall reading an article about some guy down under in au who used bicycle parts to run his  house.They called him"Peter Petals".He could grind his grain with foot power.He even had a wind powered generator built from bike wheels to generate some power.He had taken one idea and had really run amuck with it.Then about 2 years ago I saw a tv show on a family in calif that $4.00 gas was not hurting.They had paid off their house and raised all  or most of their food on a typical city house lot.They planted nearly every square inch of that property with something they could eat(even the flowers could be eaten).I remember they had 2 or 3 chickens too.Triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on September 27, 2009, 02:09:54 PM
One thing I did was plant some food plants that look like weeds to the untrained eye on property that didn't belong to me.That was about 17 years ago.They produce a small tuber that I can eat.They grow on their own and to my knowlege they are still there growing for me. White French Articokes is what they are and they look like sunflowers.Triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on September 27, 2009, 02:26:22 PM
I do believe that our money will worsten to a point where the government will cancel our money.Like post war germany did in June sunday 1948.Millions of germans knew their money was inflated,but few realized that they were to be canceled so suddenly altogether.Marks that would buy a house on saturday would not be sufficient in value to buy a winter coat on Sunday.Yes there were a staggering number of german suicides that JuneSunday in 1948.This is what I believe will happen here in about 20 years.All the cash you can save will be canceled and deemed worthless by the USA.Triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: ATT on September 27, 2009, 05:35:49 PM
.
Sounds like you have a pretty good handle on it, Triffid.

The urban-guerrilla gardening methods you describe are still popular, sometimes whole communities engage in planting edibles all over the city on public and private land, rarely do they run into opposition since, in most cases, they are improving the landscape at no cost to the owner.

The main problem with maintaining sustainability for that family you mentioned that planted 'every square foot' of their yard is that they have no room to 'rotate' their crops, so inevitably they will be plagued with blight and/or other pestilence which will diminish their yield in short order...you really need some land for practical growing of any duration.

Keep in mind that, depending on the severity of the downturn, water may become an issue in the city. Here in Southern California, we import most of our water from Northern California and the Colorado river. As the demand increases from  greater L.A. and suburbs (read: most of southern California) and as snow-pack decreases, the ability to recharge aquifers and maintain reservoirs diminishes.

Drought increases the amount of water that has to be provided to urban areas in the south from northern California and the Colorado which, in turn, lessens the water available for irrigation to agriculture that dominates northern and central California and the Coachella valley and Imperial counties to the south.

This results in less farmed land, decreased produce avilability and higher prices.

Now imagine the scenario in the city if the pumps, gates and aquaducts started shutting down or there wasn't enough tax-base to maintain the infrastructure and the cities/state couldn't afford the manpower to keep things going and layed everybody off.

Think: rationing, national guard, military control, martial law, FEMA, ETC..

I'm actually not an 'alarmist', by any means, but I've experienced this sort of thing before and all it took was a 7.5 'quake to shut down water, electricity and phones (including cells), station armed guards at every grocery store to enforce rationing and bring out the marines from 29 Palms MCB to help maintain order ('92 Landers Quake).

Granted, that was a short-lived 'emergency' situation in a low-population area but think of what a more protracted (perhaps 'permanent') emergency in a high-density urban environment would entail.

In a severe downturn, urban areas are not where you want to be, there's too much dependence on infrastructure, too high a population density, competition for resources is elevated and centralized populations are among the first 'targets' for any 'stabilization' agendas.
.


Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on September 27, 2009, 06:53:59 PM
ATT said:
Quote
A lot of vegetables become 'localized' to their environment over time (they actually adapt to suit conditions, which may include making it easier for pests) so trading seeds helps to promote diversity and maintain healthier harvests.
I see a potential problem:
Bees have been disappearing from their hives.  If they continue doing that, those crops that depend on them will eventually die out.

Corn doesn't need that, to my knowledge, but it's something to be aware of.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: ATT on September 27, 2009, 07:15:30 PM
Bees have been disappearing from their hives.  If they continue doing that, those crops that depend on them will eventually die out.

Lee, bees are the premier pollinator, it's true, but they aren't the sole pollinator by any stretch.
http://www.pollinator.org/pollinationequation.htm

Regardless, the Colony Collapse Disorder (CCD) continues to pose a significant threat to agriculture.
http://inspiredeconomist.com/2009/05/31/the-mysterious-disappearing-honey-bee/

The numbers for CCD are a little better this year, but not by much.

EDIT: Just to add: When I was 'living off the land' about 38 years ago, I had two hives and supers (which I didn't 'work') that were just for pollination.

You can provide the same 'pollination insurance' today with a strain of bees that is smaller than the familiar honey bee and is less likely to experience CCD to the same degree:
http://www.groworganic.com/item_PBE2000_Orchard_Mason_Bees_Unit_Of_20.html
http://www.groworganic.com/item_PBE2005_Canned_Bees_Kit.html

Tony
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on September 27, 2009, 09:18:02 PM
@ATT
With respect to your Post #105:
You're correct.  Flies, butterflies, beetles and hummingbirds are just 4 types of animals that pollinate plants.

But, it may be that some species of butterflies and hummingbirds are suffering from habitat destruction by human encroachment?  If so, even without economic collapse, the overall ecological future doesn't look good.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: ATT on September 27, 2009, 11:56:30 PM
But, it may be that some species of butterflies and hummingbirds are suffering from habitat destruction by human encroachment?  If so, even without economic collapse, the overall ecological future doesn't look good.

Excellent point, Monarchs (which are the largest migratory species of butterfly in the northern hemisphere), appear to be in decline (or at least experiencing a change in migration habits), although hummingbirds seem to be holding their own, at least in rural areas like mine.

Which begs the question: Is economic collapse symptomatic of societal self-correction?

When presented with evidence of threat to the underlying foundation of food-chain based existence does that threat subliminally trigger a chain of events that will lead to the eventual reversal of the conditions that threaten?

Do conditions become intolerable to the point that it spurs an undoing of the causal factors and an eventual reversal of mindset?

Time will tell.

Tony
.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: onthecuttingedge2005 on September 28, 2009, 12:57:13 AM
Bumble bees have the highest immune system of the Bee family, I have not seen a decline in Bumble Bees on the coast or in the mountains nor in the farm land areas.

I live in the High Sierras, there are many types of bees here, other than Honey or Bumble and I really don't see a decline in the bee population nor in the fruiting of tree's or bushes unless winter is setting in of course.

we also have a very high population of humming birds, Humming birds don't pollinate much because they tend to cheat the flower when licking nectar, their tongue is used not so much their beak thus bypassing the pollen introduction to another plant.

Man kind will have to hybrid food plants to be single sexed so the plant pollenates itself. it would neither be male or female but both. Genetics can already do this so if bee's were to die off completely there would be a means of saving plants for food purposes.

mankind is the most adaptable species on this planet, even more so than the Cockroach! now if a Cockroach had the mind of a man, it would be dangerous! lol.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on September 28, 2009, 01:22:13 AM
ATT said:
Quote
Which begs the question: Is economic collapse symptomatic of societal self-correction? ... Do conditions become intolerable to the point that it spurs an undoing of the causal factors and an eventual reversal of mindset? ... Time will tell.
Yes, indeed.  Up to this point, I've never seen it happen in recorded history.

And, don't forget the fish.  Sea life is declining in many areas.  Some oceanic countries depend on fish.  I'm Scandinavian, and I know the sea was always important to my ancestors.
Then there's the Japanese, Koreans, Chinese, Spanish, Portuguese, South American, Carribean and Mediterranean countries.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: onthecuttingedge2005 on September 28, 2009, 04:37:22 AM
ATT said:Yes, indeed.  Up to this point, I've never seen it happen in recorded history.

And, don't forget the fish.  Sea life is declining in many areas.  Some oceanic countries depend on fish.  I'm Scandinavian, and I know the sea was always important to my ancestors.
Then there's the Japanese, Koreans, Chinese, Spanish, Portuguese, South American, Carribean and Mediterranean countries.

--Lee

Do you have the natural decline numbers for these species in those areas of concern? it does make a difference. there is also natural selection numbers that are set apart from artificial decline(intervened by man). remember, suzy the T-Rex Dino that had cancer of the femor before mankind ever existed.

are we basing this on mankinds arrival?

some claim that man caused all these diseases. which isn't true. don't believe in the six thousand year mankind evolution either. it is not true.

Jerry ;)
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: onthecuttingedge2005 on September 28, 2009, 04:57:23 AM
Pessimist usually turn into terrorists. according to fanaticism, because they don't agree with the standard mid way of life. life in the middle. who chooses to be medium. life in the middle is better than life fully in the wrong.

will the God head ever learn how to reap those who are in the midst. i know you are in the future, you still don't comply.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: ATT on September 28, 2009, 05:16:31 AM
.
Quote from: the_big_m_in_ok
And, don't forget the fish.  Sea life is declining in many areas.

We can also look at plankton die-off, 'dead water' with not enough oxygen content to support life and industrial waste, mercury, ect.

I think it's reasonable to assume that as conditions continue to decline the effects will continue to propagate throughout the food-chain, events would seem to bear this out.

Like I said: individually, we can't 'save the world', but we can strive to put ourselves and our families in the best position we can manage in order to optimize our chances.
.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: ATT on September 29, 2009, 04:43:29 AM
Quote
Pessimist usually turn into terrorists. according to fanaticism, because they don't agree with the standard mid way of life. life in the middle. who chooses to be medium. life in the middle is better than life fully in the wrong.

will the God head ever learn how to reap those who are in the midst. i know you are in the future, you still don't comply.

Jerry, you know what? Those are the most philosophical statements I've seen on this thread...I think.

What triggered that issuance?

Do you think any of us are being too pessimistic in our evaluation?

What most of us try to avoid here is outright 'alarmism', but at the same time we don't want to be lulled into the false comfort of absolute 'denial', so I guess one could say we're somewhere in the 'middle', depending on your point of reference.

There is nothing particularly pessimistic about stating current conditions, we didn't pull any of this stuff from PrisonPlanet or the like, it's all mainstream data, whether economic or environmental, the conclusions the data lead to are individually arrived at and subject to re-evaluation as new data comes into view.

Also, keep in mind these are opinions and opinions are always subject to change as new information becomes available, I haven't run into anybody on here that's a hard-core 'survive or die' evangelist.

I do, however, welcome your opinion, but you're going to have to come down a click from the metaphysical so a simple guy like me can understand what you're getting at.

(Those -are- pretty deep thoughts, though!)

Tony
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on September 29, 2009, 05:46:22 AM
ATT said:
Quote
We can also look at plankton die-off, 'dead water' with not enough oxygen content to support life and industrial waste, mercury, ect.
Absolutely.  Farm and lawn fertilizers add nitrogen---and especially---phosphorus to the ocean and cause plankton blooms to kill fish.  I've seen this myself.

Quote
Like I said: individually, we can't 'save the world', but we can strive to put ourselves and our families in the best position we can manage in order to optimize our chances.
Yep, right.  It's about all the average person has the power to do.  Taking on big business and city hall is like playing with a card deck stacked against the gambling player and for the gambling house dealer.  Win against those odds?  A miracle needs to happen, but I won't say it's impossible, just unlikely.

NOTE:
The term "gambling house" has a counterpart in Las Vegas that's a word which begins with 'C' and ends with 'O'.  Here's the word:  .  (Nothing left but the period.)
When I look at the preview screen, the word is deleted and replaced with blank spaces.  That's because I think all this and other types of publicly accessable software is being censored.
--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: ATT on September 29, 2009, 07:00:12 AM
.
Let's try this: c@sin0 and see if it flies.

It's censored primarily for self-preservation. The way the laws work when you have a site, you can be sued, charged or otherwise shut-down for even -linking- to content that's not allowed, so if one of your users posts a link that's questionable, -you- take the hit.

Anyway, that particular word is probably off-limits more for spamming-type reasons, but you never know...

BTW, most forum scripts let you enable a 'bad-words' list, as admin, you get to decide which words are allowed or not allowed, that's what's going on here.
.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: ATT on September 29, 2009, 07:37:30 PM
.
Thought I'd pass this on, just another point of view:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20327271.700-population-overconsumption-is-the-real-problem.html

Tony
.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on September 29, 2009, 11:34:32 PM
ATT said:
Quote
Let's try this: c@sin0 and see if it flies.
It sure does.  The software doesn't recognize the word as being banned.
Quote
It's censored primarily for self-preservation. The way the laws work when you have a site, you can be sued, charged or otherwise shut-down for even -linking- to content that's not allowed, so if one of your users posts a link that's questionable, -you- take the hit.
Good thinking.  Now I know more.  I agree wholeheartedly.
Quote
Anyway, that particular word is probably off-limits more for spamming-type reasons, but you never know...
Yeah, probably so.  I'm fairly sure spammers can key on words to spider them or link to them.
Quote
BTW, most forum scripts let you enable a 'bad-words' list, as admin, you get to decide which words are allowed or not allowed, that's what's going on here.
That follows.  Software companies would use that as a selling point and customize the database filters.  You bet.

BTW, I'll try and remember the word above and the go-around fix.  I might still get a warning from the Moderators?  Depends on the word?

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: exxcomm0n on September 30, 2009, 07:54:24 AM
@ Lee

I don't think the moderators will get that upset by using a euphemistic representation for a "banned" word unless it is to degrade or attack another forum poster, at least they haven't when I have done the same (or worse) as typing c@sin0.

Many forum packages have an already populated ban-list which many just leave in place, but moderators don't actively scan for.

Stefan is a good site owner and uses (mostly) good judgment in allowing most posts that, while they may not be "PC" (politically correct), are not attacking another poster or race.
If he does censor a post or topic he addresses why he did it so that all members have an idea where the action came from and what about it made him do so.
He seems to choose moderators that share that definition of freedom of speech and expression, and listens when some claims unjust censorship.

@ all

The fact that you're at this site proves that you are all interested in new cleaner and self sufficient energy production. Present energy production methods and "needs" are the #1 type/cause of over consumption.
We all see it and do it in one way or another, or we'd have no interest in being here.
Being able to produce for your own power needs more cleanly takes out a large part of that over consumption, as well as taking a major step towards self sufficiency, and is a goal everyone should take seriously.

While I hate to think of myself as a "doom and gloom sayer" or "chicken little", it would seem from recent events that there is an ever increasing need for people to become self sufficient.
I do have to congratulate those active in this thread for looking into how to fend for themselves and their families for a variety of reasons, economic disaster being just one.

The loss of basic civil and human rights which give more power to gov't over the the people it governs seem to be happening with more and more regularity.
When this happens historically, it leads to those in power abusing those governed to the point of civic revolution.
If that would happen in the USA, self sufficiency would become a MUCH greater need than it's presently seen as.

The latest H1N1 fear campaign has me really starting to think that someone, somewhere is starting to size up large segments of society (if not the world, since it's "pandemic") for that nose ring I mentioned before.

T3rr0rism is a fairly recently coined term for what may have been otherwise been called revolutionary or freedom fighter. It evokes fear intrinsically from the base of it's name, being a term for extreme fear. Look at what freedoms you have lost because of recent "t3rr0rist" acts.
Remember the anthrax scare in the USA, and where it was ultimately reasoned it could have come from?
http://www.ph.ucla.edu/EPI/bioter/terroranthraxlinkedus.html    and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_anthrax_attacks

The best advice I can think of is, THINK! Don't react in a knee jerk fashion.

It's been pointed out many times that the best way to control large parts of society is to keep them reacting to more and more fears (whether real, or manufactured) until they stop thinking and only react. Then they look to someone to tell them what to do instead of reasoning intelligently.

Be like a boy scout and Be Prepared. Being prepared assumes careful thought and planning.

Just because I have a first aid kit doesn't mean I expect I'll be using it.
But if I do need it , it's very nice that I thought about it and was prepared.

Think about what I said and please believe me when I tell you that I'm not trying to add another fear to the huge amount "news" tells us about everyday.

I'm just giving you something to think about and be prepared for.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: ATT on September 30, 2009, 05:17:12 PM
.
@exxcomm0n

Extremely thoughtful statement, well said.

The importance of exercising reason rather that falling into a purely reactionary response to adversity is that one remains in control of one's individual actions rather than submitting to that of 'herd' mentality, which leads, as you so aptly put, to the 'nose ring' syndrome.

Tony
.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on September 30, 2009, 07:30:19 PM
ATT said:
Quote
@exxcomm0n
Extremely thoughtful statement, well said.
Allow me to echo that for exxcomm0n's last post.  Very well put.  I think maybe if, as the Bible says, "Those elect few" will be saved, I hope there's enough people to restart the country's population after the dire, potentially impending problems have been dealt with by the survivors.
(Actual smile on my face) "We live in hope."   :)

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Dustine1017 on October 01, 2009, 07:22:41 AM
I anticipate that maybe if the Bible says, "Those accept few" will be saved, I achievement there's abundant humans to restart the country's citizenry afterward the dire, potentially approaching problems accept been dealt with by the survivors.


_________________
International travel medical insurance (http://www.mnui.com)
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on October 01, 2009, 02:07:51 PM
You do have to be carefull  when and where you plant your illegal food plants on property that does not belong to you.I have seen many a good area mowed and sprayed by the city.Grass fires do come along once in a while.Triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on October 01, 2009, 04:50:29 PM
Dustine1017 said:
Quote
I anticipate that maybe if the Bible says, "Those accept few" will be saved, I achievement there's abundant humans to restart the country's citizenry...
At least one place in the Bible(Book of Revelations?) is says 1/3 of (Israel?) will survive.
The Book of Enoch says about 10% at most.
This is enough of a genetic diversity to safely rebuild the human race---as long as people don't do as Abraham did and marry a very close relative.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: ATT on October 02, 2009, 06:46:26 AM
Thought I'd pass this on. The economy may not be the only disaster coming down the pipe:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20427281.300-posthuman-earth-how-the-planet-will-recover-from-us.html

Here's another one that you'll appreciate, d3, this fault is just 15 min down the hill from me, but at least I'm on the side that 'won't fall in the ocean'...I think...

Lee, you might get some fallout from this too, it ends right about where you are...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8283873.stm

EDIT: Ran across this from Forbes:

http://www.forbes.com/2009/10/02/unemployment-economy-recession-business-beltway-jobs.html

After adjusting the outlook based on more reality-based insights, some expect it'll be 2017 before the job market gets back to where it was (if then).

Tony
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: d3adp00l on October 03, 2009, 06:27:42 AM
another good reason to get more stuff into another state.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on October 03, 2009, 07:07:22 AM
another good reason to get more stuff into another state.
I was going to post on another thread that:
1) The Gov't took the bailout money and bought a large share in AIG and several banks.
2) They legally own a lot of assets
3) Potentially, by Executive Order, they also own the title to your house and car.  (Some conspiracy theorists say this is true.)
4) They can(if they wish) declare a trumped-up national emergency(Swine Flu) and round up whomever they want, for the public safety.  They have the law on their side.

The thread I'm referring to above is in the We can't live without the truth Forum under the ..."they mean business" thread.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: onthecuttingedge2005 on October 03, 2009, 07:53:53 AM
I have actually talked to my family doctor when I had my physical a week ago, he said, it will be no different that any other flu shot because the vaccine is a dead virus, not a live shot.

he said there is no chance of having a GB reaction as those of the live virus administered in the 70's.

our doctor is a really good friend of the family and he wouldn't lie about it.

if you have a good family doctor then ask them about it.

so far there has been no deaths or major symptoms of the current swine flu vaccine in clinical trials to my knowledge.

I think the paranoid fear mongers are brainwashing again to destablize our nation by spreading non peer reviewed researched propaganda to the public domain as usual.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: MasterPlaster on October 03, 2009, 11:10:42 AM
I think the paranoid fear mongers are brainwashing again to destablize our nation by spreading non peer reviewed researched propaganda to the public domain as usual.

Ok we are all paranoid. Don't forget to get your doctor to write you a prescription for Prozac whilst you are there getting your injection.

I asked a family member who is high up in a hospital (not in US). He said neither he nor any of his colleagues know any case of this fatal flu in any hospital.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: onthecuttingedge2005 on October 03, 2009, 11:40:33 AM
Ok we are all paranoid. Don't forget to get your doctor to write you a prescription for Prozac whilst you are there getting your injection.

Prozac might cut down on the amount of suicide bombers. to much mental illness going unchecked these days around the world.

Quote
I asked a family member who is high up in a hospital (not in US). He said neither he nor any of his colleagues know any case of this fatal flu in any hospital.

as of 01 May 2009 - 7:00 PDT

Mexico
168 suspected deaths (less than a third of them confirmed so far)
Approximately 2000 to 2,500 suspected cases

US
1 death
109 confirmed cases (at least)

New Zealand
No deaths
4 confirmed cases and 12 probable cases

Canada
No deaths
34 confirmed cases

UK
No deaths
8 confirmed cases

Spain
No deaths
13 confirmed cases

Germany
No deaths
4 confirmed cases

Israel
No deaths
2 confirmed cases

Costa Rica
No deaths
2 confirmed cases

Austria
No deaths
1 confirmed case

The Netherlands (Holland)
No deaths
1 confirmed case

Switzerland
No deaths
1 confirmed Case
 
Confirmed cases of secondary transmission (the infected person caught it from another person in the same country) have been reported it the USA, Canada, Spain, and Germany.

I really don't see any reason to get a mandatory flu shot, I haven't heard of the military getting one yet so I think this forced H1N1 vaccine is a bunch of hype.

I myself have never had a flu shot and I haven't had the flu in over 8 years!
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on October 03, 2009, 06:12:50 PM
onthecuttingedge2005 said:
Quote

so far there has been no deaths or major symptoms of the current swine flu vaccine in clinical trials to my knowledge.
I've never, ever had the flu.
When I was a teenager in Calif., There was two years of bad flu epidemics in my state.  The first year, no one in my family got it, but the next time, they all got it except me.
I asked myself, "Why was that?"
It wasn't until I learned about the human gene CCR5delta32 that I may have found an answer.  A double deletion(important!) of the gene confers immunity to AIDS, Black Plague, hepatitis, (probably) tuberculosis and (possibly) the flu.  Why?  These diseases use a receptor in the nucleus of the white blood 'T' cells to gain access to the cell's interior, multiply there, and then destroy the cell.
(The gene is actually unnecessary in the body---no one really needs it live.)
Having neither of these genes as deletions from both your parents is the key.  If you have one deletion, you can last up to decades with AIDS, but you'll die eventually.  Everyone else in my family probably had one deletion each and were partially immune to the flu.  If I have both, I'm immune, which is why I don't get a flu shot every year.

The gene originated in Southern Scandinavia about 1,100-1,200 years ago and spread around mostly Northern Europe, the British Isles and Western Europe since then.  Since it originated there, other races in the world have a normal set of genes from their parents and are susceptible to the diseases mentioned above.
(There was a research paper written to this effect, but I would have to look for it on the Internet.)
Re-edit:
Here is one...

Dating the Origin of the AIDS Resistance Allele by the Coalescence of Haplotypes
Am J Hum Gene 62 (6):1507-15

American Journal of Human Genetics, Volume 62, issue #6, pgs. 1507-1515


--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: exxcomm0n on October 03, 2009, 08:20:30 PM
Now there are plenty of threads here about H1N1 and there is no reason to turn this one into another, but to address these recent posts about it since I seemed to be the one that introduced H1N1 into the topic (only as an aside), I'll give my last word to as why I may have below.

After this, could we please focus on the economic situation as the thread title suggests?


On the subject of the "flu"......

My "significant other" is an ICU nurse at an area hospital, and one of the more sane in our area.

After signing that she had "religious objection" to the regular flu shot, she (as well as everyone else, even non-ICU that abstains) now has to where a mask every shift of work from Oct. 1 to Feb. 1 (EDIT: errr....make that Apr. 1), and this is deemed a more "sane" hospital corporation because at least she only has to wear a mask.

The two other, larger hospital corporations in the area are threatening dismissal of workers for refusal to get a regular flu shot, let alone the H1N1 which is not available yet.

That seems a pretty serious trend towards forced vaccination even though your earning potential is used rather than political mandate.
You have to slowly corral the whole herd to before you can get them to march one by one into the chute.

News has always hyped the common flu and it's yearly coming, as it kills thousands per year that have weakened immune systems from already challenging pre-existing conditions like debilitation or extreme age.

So can the common cold.
So can any other viral or bacteriological illness.

The things that scares me about H1N1 vaccination is that National guard troops have not held training exercises for the effects of civil unrest due to vaccinations for the common cold or "regular" flu.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InX-0qvc2ww
(There is a more substantial Tube post of a local news story about training exercises but "YouTube is down for maintenance and will be back shortly." so I can't find it. Try this instead  http://www.sunjournal.com/node/105339)

There has also never been an international campaign of fear through media for them either.

There hasn't been the rush for a new (and unproven or tested) vaccine for them either, but there certainly seems to have been for H1N1.
http://www.who.int/csr/disease/swineflu/interactive_map/en/index.html

I would like onthecuttingedge2005 to post about these successful clinical trials, when they were performed, and by whom.

I would also like to ask where his statistical data of deaths vs. cases came from. I do not challenge those findings except to find out what health care organization compiled and released them as it would help greatly to validate them.

Let's take the Mexico numbers he posted as an example:

2000 to 2500 suspected cases approximately -
(which makes me wonder what percentage are confirmed, and what approximation was used.)

168 suspected deaths -  with less than 1/3 confirmed =  56 approx., so let's say 50.
(with less than 1/3 confirmed, at least something is reported as confirmed.)

50/2500 = 10/500 = 1/50 or 2% mortality of the suspected approximation of H1N1 cases.
1 out of every 50 persons suspected of contracting H1N1 will die in Mexico.

If you use the entire population numbers from:
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/mx.html instead though........
 
50/111,212,000 = 5/11121200 = 1/2224240 of the entire population which is a LOT less scary.

About the regular flu.......

This story from 2003:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/01/07/health/main535605.shtml
....says "Centers for Disease Control and Prevention reported. Flu deaths now average about 36,000 a year, up from 20,000 in previous estimates, the CDC said."
According to http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/disease/us_flu-related_deaths.htm this study was from data collected over a span from 1990 to 1999.

http://www.census.gov/population/www/popclockus.html says the TOTAL US population is at: 307,610,152 as of this morning, so using average mortality from 2003 against the approx. population of 2009 I get:

36000/307610000 = 36/307610 = 1/8545 approx. of the entire population, not reported cases.

If you take those numbers against the yearly reported cases from
http://www.flufacts.com/impact/statistics.aspx  of 25 million to 50 million you get:

36000/50000000 = 36/50000 = 1/1388 best case scenario.
36000/25000000 = 36/25000 = 1/694 worst case scenario.

According to those numbers it would seem that the common flu is far more dangerous in the USA than the H1N1 flu is in Mexico.
But all of these numbers are dependent on "suspected approximations" or reported cases.
There are no hard numbers when dealing with medical situations because of mis-diagnosis and unreported cases.

I know I shouldn't compare Mexico with the USA as there are many different factors that effect these numbers, but I'd expect mortality in Mexico to be higher than the USA in almost all situations.

But using those numbers above, it seems the amount of HYPE about the H1N1 is astronomical when compared to the "devil we know" common flu, doesn't it?

Now, can we get back to gov't stupidity and the weak faith in the idea of money here?

H1N1 was only one of the 3 reasons i thought self preparedness might be a good idea.

P.S. I just yesterday saw an article in the newspaper that said that Armed Forces were of the first to be getting vaccinated, and that IS mandatory.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on October 04, 2009, 12:00:31 AM
@exxcomm0n, with respect to your Post #136
The only thing further I'll say about the H1N1 Swine Flu is the the Gov't over-reaction to non-compliance against immunization points to something---in my opinion---ulterior in their stance.  This "stance", as I put it, can cause people to grip their weapons tighter as a result.
That reaction, if it happens, can cause a backlash amongst Americans that could hasten the "Collapse".  That's my point.

Otherwise, you're correct and I agree, the H1N1 conversation was an off topic distraction.  Enough said.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on October 04, 2009, 12:16:57 AM

Id say more of a different aspect of the same agenda than a distraction Lee.

Regards...

Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: exxcomm0n on October 04, 2009, 12:36:52 AM
Lee,

I brought it into the discussion and so ultimately it is my fault.

It certainly has not been the only scare tactic within the last decade, but it is the most pervasive one.

My plea to return to the original topic was about it being a indicator, but not a reason for an entire post in this topic.
Then I made an entire post about it. ;)

I apologize for bringing it into the discussion, and most of the blame should be centered upon me.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on October 04, 2009, 12:48:21 AM
Id say more of a different aspect of the same agenda than a distraction Lee.
Regards...
@Cap-Z-ro
Could be true.  I've paid particular attention to this thread and my patent thread on the Extracting... forum and their topic replies, and there are quite a few other threads to monitor, especially for hartiberlin.
I'll try and always to stay focused on the topic at hand
...and not answer further posts on the subject of the flu on this thread.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on October 04, 2009, 12:52:10 AM
exxcomm0n said:
Quote

...I apologize for bringing it into the discussion, and most of the blame should be centered upon me.
Apology accepted.  I wasn't bothered by it.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: d3adp00l on October 04, 2009, 01:11:25 AM
I have actually talked to my family doctor when I had my physical a week ago, he said, it will be no different that any other flu shot because the vaccine is a dead virus, not a live shot.

he said there is no chance of having a GB reaction as those of the live virus administered in the 70's.

our doctor is a really good friend of the family and he wouldn't lie about it.

if you have a good family doctor then ask them about it.

so far there has been no deaths or major symptoms of the current swine flu vaccine in clinical trials to my knowledge.

I think the paranoid fear mongers are brainwashing again to destablize our nation by spreading non peer reviewed researched propaganda to the public domain as usual.


Your doctor has not done any indepedant study into it. He is assuming these things.

It is after all his medical opinion, and he is still "practicing" medicine.

When they become professionals, maybe we will have something to work with.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on October 04, 2009, 02:15:49 AM
All threads seem to veer off in other directions and then refocus Lee.

At least you were in a related area.

I can't recall ever making an off topic post myself though.

Is anyone as upset as I am with the off season player changes made by the Blackhawks ?

Regards...

Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: ATT on October 04, 2009, 03:48:18 AM
.
Speaking of collapse and the relative safety of more rural areas, have a look at this little Montana town:

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/09/american_police_force_hardin_montana.php

Tony
.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: d3adp00l on October 04, 2009, 06:51:58 AM
old news now, but yes, wierd shit going on there.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on October 04, 2009, 07:29:00 AM
ATT said:
Quote

Speaking of collapse and the relative safety of more rural areas, have a look at this little Montana town:

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/09/american_police_force_hardin_montana.php
Hey Tony,
You have a point with the news article.  The flu shots are a ploy.  Look out.  They'll have a riot on their hands when they try and take the guns away from rural Western States residents.
The collapse will arrive sooner.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: onthecuttingedge2005 on October 04, 2009, 08:07:53 AM

Your doctor has not done any indepedant study into it. He is assuming these things.


now how would you know that? are you, assuming?

with all the H1N1 information in the patient treatment rooms it sounds to me like he has been getting and studying info about the H1N1 vaccine.

Quote
It is after all his medical opinion, and he is still "practicing" medicine.

the local doctor around here has to keep on top of the information concerning the H1N1 vaccine or this little town would railroad him in the blink of an eye, he has to be very careful not to do the wrong thing.

there has been clinical trials of already injected H1N1 vaccine into trial patients and none and I repeat again, none have had any major symptoms nor has there been any GB reactions nor has there been any deaths with the current vaccine.

Quote
When they become professionals, maybe we will have something to work with.

find a professional MD, PHD and ask them about the H1N1 instead of basing what you know on what other people assume through internet based paranoia.

please use the spell check, it comes in handy when trying to sound like you know what you are talking about.

stick to peer reviewed research and not some internet baffoon trying to freak people out with 'assumed' research.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: exxcomm0n on October 04, 2009, 09:10:43 AM

there has been clinical trials of already injected H1N1 vaccine into trial patients and none and I repeat again, none have had any major symptoms nor has there been any GB reactions nor has there been any deaths with the current vaccine.

find a professional MD, PHD and ask them about the H1N1 instead of basing what you know on what other people assume through internet based paranoia.

please use the spell check, it comes in handy when trying to sound like you know what you are talking about.

stick to peer reviewed research and not some internet baffoon trying to freak people out with 'assumed' research.

WTF??

I asked for your sources for your statements, and you come back with attacks on the statements of another member?

d3, from all I've seen and read , isn't much of a buffoon (which I think is what your "use spell check" ass was striving to impart).

I LIVE with a medical services professional, I get to hear about what Dr's say whether I want to or not. Many are not getting the shot for various reasons.

Now that I have transgressed yet again against the topic of this thread, will you leave off yammering about something you obviously know nothing about that is not within the scope of the thread subject, and yammer on about the subject, of which I assume your depth of insight is the same?

Better yet, answer my queries of you in post #131, and give reference articles please?

Thank you
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: onthecuttingedge2005 on October 04, 2009, 09:58:50 AM
WTF??

I asked for your sources for your statements, and you come back with attacks on the statements of another member?

d3, from all I've seen and read , isn't much of a buffoon (which I think is what your "use spell check" ass was striving to impart).

I LIVE with a medical services professional, I get to hear about what Dr's say whether I want to or not. Many are not getting the shot for various reasons.

Now that I have transgressed yet again against the topic of this thread, will you leave off yammering about something you obviously know nothing about that is not within the scope of the thread subject, and yammer on about the subject, of which I assume your depth of insight is the same?

Better yet, answer my queries of you in post #131, and give reference articles please?

Thank you

Hi exxcomm0n.

If you want to discuss this then open a topic other than this thread, it doesn't belong here. you can do a google search for the clinical trials.

enough said.
Jerry 8)
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on October 04, 2009, 01:01:31 PM

I believe the fact that a patent was was filed for the vaccine 1 year before the virus supposedly existed speaks to agenda afoot here.

An unpleasant stay and a short stay on the site is the end result of unprovoked attacks other members.

Regards...

Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: exxcomm0n on October 04, 2009, 01:47:30 PM
Hi Jerry

Interesting.
But it makes no sense to open another topic to question statements you made in this one as you will probably selectively ignore it, like posts in this thread.

I cite sources in my arguments, and they don't agree with those you post without such.
What a difference 26 days can make, since that is the only piece of information I have from your statistics other than their discrepancy with the ones I found .

'Nuff said  ;)

@ Cap

It does make you wonder, eh?

EDIT:

Some additional info to help research Cap's post.

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/276194

http://www.scribd.com/doc/18224172/Baxter-H1N1-Vaccine-Patent-Application

Back in the spirit of the thread topic -

I decided to take the inestimable advice of Jerry and "google it" on some topics that have relevance to the thread.

At first I tried "world economic health" since it is a common euphemism used in financial circles.
It was disappointing as there was lots of flu reference in the results, but I did glean these choice tidbits:

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=26686&Cr=desa&Cr1=
(but it is over 1 yr. old and does not reflect the events of the past year.)

http://www.economywatch.com/world_economy/

Then I tried "USA economic failure", but was returned far left/right wing sites touting their respective philosophies as to why it's happening.
I'll start paying them more attention when they HAVEN'T been the 2 ruling political parties in this country for approx. 100 years.

From there I went to "world economic trends", but it's "read between the lines" sort of information. It looks good until you start picking at it.
Take a look here:

http://gsociology.icaap.org/report/econ/econsum.html

I finally settled on "USA economic projections" as I was running out of steam and the prior information was emotionally draining.

http://www.bls.gov/emp/emptab1.htm (http://www.bls.gov/emp/emptab1.htm) is a projection of occupational percentages of the population and is projected to be pretty stagnant over the next 10 years.
I thought it interesting that declines, or no growth were noted in the majority.
Professional and service ("You want fries with that?") occupations are the areas with gains, but it still doesn't tell me what percentage of the workforce will be able to find work.

http://www.federalreserve.gov/monetarypolicy/fomcminutes20080130ep.htm (http://www.federalreserve.gov/monetarypolicy/fomcminutes20080130ep.htm) was then found and gives you an idea of where the news is getting its figures and projections from.

That's it, I'm bushed. There is only so much political/financial crap I can stomach per day.





 
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on October 04, 2009, 04:38:31 PM
The existence of a vaccine for a virus that wasn't in existence takes most people past the point of wonderment excomm.

And it is the neurotoxins in all prior "vaccines" which impair the brains ability to process information.

Ergo, some still can't recognize the 'in your face' significance of a "cure" being invented before the disease manifests itself.

Regards...

Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on October 04, 2009, 06:10:49 PM
onthecuttingedge2005 said:
Quote
If you want to discuss this then open a topic other than this thread, it doesn't belong here. you can do a google search for the clinical trials.
Am I going out on a limb with this?

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7998.0
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8094.0

Both threads deal with the H1N1 Swine Flu issue.  Plenty of room on the IP server's hard drive to upload data for discussion.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: lwh on October 04, 2009, 10:58:23 PM
While I'm not really into the survivalistic shtuff (which is what this thread was sort of about last time I looked), I thought some of you here might find these things interesting, http://www.lifesaversystems.com/index.html as maintaining access to a drinkable water supply could be very problematic if what some of you are anticipating actually comes to pass.  Hell, I'm tempted to get one anyway, could come in handy in any case. 
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: d3adp00l on October 05, 2009, 06:21:01 AM
appreciate the confidence Ex.

Ok back on topic.

An FYI does anyone know or understand who is involved with the g20, and g8?

In the g20 there are only 19 countries,
in the g8 there are 9 members.

guess who is the odd man out, its the central bank of Europe.

So let me get this straight, the countries sit down and have a meeting with the bank, it sounds like debt negotiation to me, with the bank giving orders.

The new unemployment numbers are up again, the real unemployment it close to 25-27%, what do you think this down spin in jobs will do?

The home foreclosure rate is up, and the sales supposedly came up a bit. Well sure thats what it looks like. As home foreclose they get sold at auction, which is still a sale.

The central valley in california, 1 million arces, is getting its water shut off.

Seriously how can you expect a recovery when the most basic forms of the economy is destroyed.

Lets establish a few things. ALL economy is based ultimately on agriculture. Second to that is construction, after that is manufacturing. Energy is a modifier to those industries.

A simple critical path method of econ analysis is all that is needed. Wallstreet can not fix this, government spending can not fix this. Increasing our true worth is the only way.

So as people limit their expenses, and the gov. and big biz. continue to siphon off their share, which reduces the amount of money flowing back into the economy.

This whole system is just a ponzy scheme, with the gov.s and big biz being the ones telling us that if we just play our part we could be like them, we could have the wealth they have.

Well here is the problem with that, money is a commodity according to this system right? So in order for it to have value there has to be a demand with a limited supply.

So if we could actually acquire some wealth, their wealth would be worth less, because we as a whole would desire their money less, because we have our own.

This is a classic scam, a Tom sawyer if you will. Make everyone desire what it is that you have, and keep them in wanting.

How to keep them in wanting, well make sure that most (90%) can never get there, put enough taxes, profit margins, indirect taxes, credit charges, interest rates, etc. So that if you don't start out with enough money to be on the inside, the likelyhood of you getting in the inside is slim.

Its just like the lotto system, "you can only win if you play" but if you play in this system you can only hope to break even. Every once in a while they have to let someone win, otherwise no one would play.

This system has to fail, its designed to do it. Any system that has interest on it will always fail. Its percentage of waste grows exponentially.

Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on October 05, 2009, 06:47:29 AM
d3adp00l said:
Quote
This system has to fail, its designed to do it. Any system that has interest on it will always fail. Its percentage of waste grows exponentially.
Yes, exactly.  Several original religious founders around the world had said the same thing.  Greed is its own punishment, as it were.

I read an Internet presentation in .PDF once(might be gone now) that indicated on the "Conclusions" page, last paragraph...
In effect, hunter/gatherer cultures had existed for 1,000,000 years until the last 8,000 years or so.  If there was a drought, earthquake, tidal wave, etc, the tribe could survive with some difficulty.
But when civilization was invented, the greedy religious/military/business class took control.  Famine and competition for food became a chronic feature in many societies.
People could often cope until then.  But not since then.
Another collapse is coming for the same reason the others happened.  "Business as usual."

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: exxcomm0n on October 05, 2009, 07:26:57 AM
Damn, there goes d3 making sense again.

I think everyone is comfortable with the idea that most gov't economic systems are ponzi schemes that have run out of new investors to fleece.
It was a lot easier when there were plenty of raw materials to steal and exploit but population density has kind of killed that possibility.

So major questions are:
How long do you think it will be before the lack of economic growth is so prevalent that it will be hard to deny no matter what the news says causing a collapse or the announcement of military action on domestic soil to "keep the peace"?

How prepared are you?
If it happened tomorrow would you be ready?

What will be the major indicators that you will use to know that a very bad situation is SOON?

How long will you wait before you know it's time to either get out or batten down the hatches?

Can you feed you and yours until next harvest season?

Can you provide a fully balanced diet during that time?

How will you provide for your energy needs if the grid or gas station is unavailable?

How will you communicate? What will be your sources of news?

Can you organize, or be a part of a well rounded self sufficient community or will it all be DIY?

I really don't expect answers to each of these points from members of the forum, but I wanted to throw them out there to give you (and myself) some parameters of what will be necessary should the worst case scenario be realized.

Since it was recommended to me that I start a new thread, I believe I will, but I will choose a different subject than what was recommended.
It'll be questions like these that anyone else can use as a preparedness checklist to see how ready for self sufficiency they really are.

Again, I don't do this to scare anyone, but by the time most people think it's time to head for the hills, it's already too late.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: d3adp00l on October 05, 2009, 08:52:25 AM
how prepared?
fair

tomorrow?
not as much as I would like to be, But I could make what I have work.

Bad situation?
As far as I am concerned, I don't like what I see already. And frankly I don't like knowing what I know about how it all works. So either way I want a change. But indicators, martial law declared anywhere in the US, any local catastrophies, certain laws being enforced, anyone coming and violating my rights in my home, or anyone I know.

How long?
after I see one of the above, its time to move and move fast. I figure 24hrs to a week at most. Batten down the hatches? not where I live.

Can I feed?
yes I believe I can

diet?
same as above

Power?
solar for now, a small grid, working on more, and biogas plant. As far as vehicle fuel, thats a situation no joy right now. Unless you count horses.
Working on establishing bio type fuels, and switching over vehicles to run it, veg oil and diesels.

Comm?
Local comm with short range radios, have the standard multiband windup radios for listening. Long range comm, looking into HAM, but I am not real familiar with it yet, and its not biggest on the list, finishing power is.

Community?
have a few that would go with, some are certain, some are maybes, most are see ya if the dust settles.

One question not asked, water?

I figure it this way, this system is built on everyone subscribing to it, if we stop doing that it gets weaker, and by negative relief, us stronger. So I am choosing to participate as little as is possible. I will vote with my dollar, or the lack of it. Am I choosing to be poor? I don't believe so. I am choosing to be in control of the transactions I participate in.

I am choosing not to make money from nothing. In my opinion people who want to do that are part of the problem.


Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: MasterPlaster on October 05, 2009, 10:52:16 AM
OK guys. I know the economic collapsapse is near. I am in agreement with you but with causion. You are thinking of saving yourselves. It is an instively generated action. I think mankind has come to the point that must (by force if have to) realize that we are part of a same collective.

I don't know what is exactly facing us tomorrow but what ever it is, together we can over-come it for sure.

I know this is too idealistic but this will be the future.
The concept of every man for himself has brought us where we are today.



Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: exxcomm0n on October 05, 2009, 11:24:22 AM
While it is a great and noble thing to be charitable to your fellow man, charity starts at home.

If I blew off getting a big screen because I thought a 5000W generator would be a better purchase, friends laugh at me on Superbowl Sunday.
But if a hurricane, flood, fire, or tornado knocks out power in my area for a week, guess who's comes around asking if they can borrow it?

I'm all for helping my fellow man, and will do so any chance I get, but I have a hard time justifying it when I spent my time and money preparing for a situation, and they spent their time catering to their creature comforts as if the future would always be sunny and bright.
I will definitely not do so if it threatens the well being of my family or myself. Everyone makes choices that effect their life and as much as I try to give good advice, I can't justify giving away what I've worked hard for just because others thought my advice silly and did not heed it  until it was too late.

Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: MasterPlaster on October 05, 2009, 04:10:07 PM
No, I am not talking about charity. I think charity is wrong.
I am talking about a paradim shift where every one see's their fullfiment
through enabling others to get what they want.

I think a lot of the problems we individually have is because of the personal
insecurities we have. In the societyf where every one feels secure they will not become greedy, hoarders etc. They would become what their true nature drives them to be. ( hopefully positive!)

I am not talking about a society where the state would do these things but each person himself would feel he has to be a selfless giver.

By the way I do believe that it is a doctine of the NWO social engineers to even destroy the family unit so, I think what I am talking about is premature and will not transpire until we come out of the other side of NWO tyranical black-hole.
 
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: ATT on October 05, 2009, 05:42:21 PM
Quote from: MasterPlaster
No, I am not talking about charity. I think charity is wrong.
Charity has it's place, however, if you 'teach a man to fish' and he doesn't and then you continue to 'give a man a fish', you perpetuate dependence.

Quote
I am talking about a paradim shift where every one see's their fulfillment through enabling others to get what they want...not become greedy...They would become what their true nature drives them to be
The reality-check here is that although our success as a species is, to a large degree, the result of our ability to cooperate as a group beyond family or tribe, there are personality characteristics that persist in many that include the agressive, the ruthless and the sociopathic.

The assumption of altruism for all individuals as the basis for societal stability isn't workable, that's why we have laws.

Quote
I think a lot of the problems we individually have is because of the personal insecurities we have.
That can certainly be the case. Another attribute of insecurity is denial, which results in doing nothing while waiting for the world to 'get better'.

Quote
By the way I do believe that it is a doctine of the NWO social engineers to even destroy the family

Replacing primary allegiance to the family with primary allegiance to the 'State' is an ancient ploy, I have no doubt that it's among the items in any agendas' 'bag of tricks'.
Title: ...and now I'll give specific reasons why I think that is...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on October 08, 2009, 05:49:33 PM
1) The biggest is, in my opinion:  investors an brokers are---still!---buying, selling and trading "credit default swaps" on Wall St.
These financial instruments are what the economic meltdown is largely about and are *said* to be worth a quadrillion dollars($1,000,000,000,000).  Even if they could be paid off, the interest and principal would amount to 5-10 times that much and take generations to pay off.

2) The war in AfPak(Afghanistan & Pakistan) costs trillions and cannot be won militarily.  The money is still *going down the drain* and the rate of expenditure cannot be maintained.

3) This is bad:  Here in California and elsewhere, Adjustable Rate Mortgages and other subprime loans are about to reset at a higher higher rate in a few months for millions of people nationwide.  Up to 8,000,000 households could be affected.
They might apply to overworked social services, move in with financially strapped relatives, or live on the streets.  There isn't much else they can do.

4) Continued unemployment is a serious concern.  Those who stop looking for work amount to twice the *official* rate.  In California it's about 25% total, and in the Northern states, it's probably higher than that.

5) The federal deficit is large enough that money is being printed to pay the people and institutions who need the economic stimulus.  The bailout of the banks only allowed the Gov't to buy up bank assets and assume control of the banks.  They own large chunks of the American economy and may assume(?) landlordship of many assets in this country.
Do go and see Capitalism: A Love Story by Michael Moore in theaters now.  It's 2 1/2 hrs long, but it got an applause from the audience at the end when I saw it.

6) The conspiracy theorists maintain there's a takeover coming when the Gov't tries to force Americans to take the flu/Swine Flu shot and then incarcerate those who refuse to comply in concentration camps for their own safety(epidemic/pandemic in progress).  They need to disarm everyone to begin that and gun owners are going to sit still for that.  The economic/political/social ramifications are huge.

To sum up:
At the beginning of Michael Moore's movie, he draws parallels between the ancient Roman Empire, which collapsed in the Fifth Century, and present-day America.  His analysis of the similarities are striking and I agree with them.  Nothing last forever, and, of course, the increasingly popular 2012 scenario(s) are becoming more prominent in some people's minds.

Something has to give.  Business as usual doesn't work any more.


Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: lwh on October 23, 2009, 09:32:11 PM
While I'm not really into the survivalistic shtuff (which is what this thread was sort of about last time I looked), I thought some of you here might find these things interesting, http://www.lifesaversystems.com/index.html as maintaining access to a drinkable water supply could be very problematic if what some of you are anticipating actually comes to pass.  Hell, I'm tempted to get one anyway, could come in handy in any case.

Just to update this, I sent an e-mail to both the Australian (where I'm at) and the U.S contact addresses on the 5th and 19th of October asking about prices and delivery and still haven't heard back from either.  These things sure aren't taking off like they could, or probably should, and the few (three in the whole world?) sellers aren't helping by not responding to e-mails.  There are phone numbers I can try but I don't want to be given the same treatment over the phone.  Makes me wonder. 
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on October 23, 2009, 09:50:19 PM
lwh said:
Quote
... the few (three in the whole world?) sellers aren't helping by not responding to e-mails.  There are phone numbers I can try but I don't want to be given the same treatment over the phone.  Makes me wonder.
@lwh
Can you get to the street address for their office in Australia?  If they're closed, you have your answer.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: lwh on October 24, 2009, 06:47:39 PM

Can you get to the street address for their office in Australia?  If they're closed, you have your answer.

--Lee

Funnily enough, in all of the places they could have been in the whole country, they're just about 10-15 kilometers from where I am.  Looked them up with Google earth and it looks like they must be in a strip of businesses fronting a light industrial area.  I can't get there easily though so I'll probably try giving them a call.  However, buying unusual imported things here often involves ridiculous price mark-ups, sometimes to the point where it's cheaper to just get it sent over from somewhere else.  That's why I was interested in hearing from the U.S seller too. 

I was also fishing to see if anyone here has actually bought one of these things from anywhere, as I must admit I've been starting to wonder if there might be some kind of suppression or obstructing of this technology going on. 
Title: A couple of more reasons for the collapse...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on October 25, 2009, 03:59:01 AM
Quote from: lwh said:
[quote
Funnily enough, in all of the places they could have been in the whole country, they're just about 10-15 kilometers from where I am.  Looked them up with Google earth and it looks like they must be in a strip of businesses fronting a light industrial area. 
Right.  Lots of businesses like that in the States.  Then there's the malls.   ::)
Quote
I can't get there easily though so I'll probably try giving them a call.  However, buying unusual imported things here often involves ridiculous price mark-ups, sometimes to the point where it's cheaper to just get it sent over from somewhere else.  That's why I was interested in hearing from the U.S seller too.
Well, Australia is quite a ways from the U.S. and Europe.  Asia is nearby,though.
Quote
I was also fishing to see if anyone here has actually bought one of these things from anywhere, as I must admit I've been starting to wonder if there might be some kind of suppression or obstructing of this technology going on.
There are patents in large numbers for water purifiers and oceanic water desalinators.  That might be some of the problem.  "Proprietary information", you know.  That way they can corner the market, so to speak.

But, back on the topic:

The current commercial property and office building market bubble is about to pop.  Loans were issued for top prices and these prices are severely depressed now.   Retail revenue is insufficient to keep up payments and loans are about to reset to higher payments in 6-12 months.

That's not all:
Thousands of home loans here in Northern California are also about to reset to higher rates.  This is very serious.  The "recovery" could end.

Lastly,
British analysts predict the English housing prices could fall 20-40% further unless something is done to reverse the trend with refinancing or other means.
Also dire for the Europeans:  Milk prices are terribly low for the Western Europeans.  A large segment of the European economy is "hanging on a cliff."

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on October 26, 2009, 03:48:39 AM
You guys should check out this website www.grandpappy.info/  .There is a lot of info on how to survive the hard times coming including shelf lives of canned foods,dry foods,and drugs.Most canned goods will last 46 years.90% of the drugs the US miltary tested were safe and effective 15 years later.Nitroglycerin,insulin, & fishoil pills not safe after expiration dates.Salt,baking soda,&sugar can last forever if stored properly.Bottled water is good for 18 months.30 years for dry goods such as white rice,wheat,pinto beans,macaroni,rolled oats and potato flakes.Keep in proper sealed containers away from insects,heat and light.20 years for powdered milk.Sounds like to me this website should be checked out for all the other info I have not mentioned.Triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on October 26, 2009, 03:52:07 AM
2010 and 2012 both look like real hard times coming to me.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on October 26, 2009, 05:45:46 AM
2010 and 2012 both look like real hard times coming to me.triffid
Right, triffid.  Do what you can to get off by yourself and think of ways to survive.  I'll start shortly, by moving to a less traveled part of San Francisco for the practice.

I think I'll need it.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on October 26, 2009, 04:41:04 PM
http://www.grandpappy.info/ does a lot more than just tell shelf lives of stuff.He says what to do the last day of normal civilization.To survive.The day the banks close and your atm card won't work.You can't buy anything because the stores close too.Then the looting starts.He even says that there will be those who bring guns to the looting so they can take from you what you looted.Really an eye opener.If you are stuck in traffic in gridlock.He says it will be years before you can move the car again.He also offers recipes without the use of eggs.Since you won't be able to get them.The whole website makes me wonder when this will happen.Triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: ATT on October 27, 2009, 05:22:48 AM
Hey guys, I just ran across this, had to post it, check it out.

http://www.oftwominds.com/blog.html

Tony
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on October 27, 2009, 03:33:23 PM
Hey guys, I just ran across this, had to post it, check it out.
http://www.oftwominds.com/blog.html
Tony
Hey Tony,
I remember seeing in an economically-oriented article a few months ago, that during the Great Depression, average house prices fell to about $70,000--80,000 when adjusted for yearly inflation.

It might get worse than that this time.  A lot of money has been lost already.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: PhiScience on October 27, 2009, 05:20:45 PM
http://www.grandpappy.info/ does a lot more than just tell shelf lives of stuff.He says what to do the last day of normal civilization.To survive.The day the banks close and your atm card won't work.You can't buy anything because the stores close too.Then the looting starts.He even says that there will be those who bring guns to the looting so they can take from you what you looted.Really an eye opener.If you are stuck in traffic in gridlock.He says it will be years before you can move the car again.He also offers recipes without the use of eggs.Since you won't be able to get them.The whole website makes me wonder when this will happen.Triffid

Thank you triffid for that website very good and informative stuff there,
Thanks.



 Yes something is definitely going in the wrong direction and soon. Just take a look at some of the Communism and Corruption of the Inner Circle of the White House.
http://www.personalliberty.com/conservative-politics/7949/ (http://www.personalliberty.com/conservative-politics/7949/)

Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: X00013 on October 28, 2009, 05:16:40 AM
I'm actually looking foward to the whole fuckn pile of world shit hitting the world fan, I'll be running beer and rice!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25W908awEqg
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: X00013 on October 28, 2009, 05:41:41 AM
Fun info from yt http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BG40TsRTTqo
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: X00013 on October 28, 2009, 06:44:09 AM
Understand ur needs as a human to survive from your wants, u need 4 things, firepower,firepower,firepower, and food.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5NIQQX_7vY

Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on October 28, 2009, 05:38:17 PM
You are very welcome.I think that knowledge is power and action dispells fear.So www.grandpappy.info provides an outline of what foods and drugs one can stock up on.                  www.couponmom.com helps out with the coupon side of grocery shopping.Gives you deals in all 50 states.   www.gasbuddy.com gives you the cheapest gas in your area.99% of all coupons are merely thrown away.That was over 300 billion dollars worth last year.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on October 28, 2009, 05:40:13 PM
One can stock up on bars of soap and smokes for barter,I guess.Triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: casman1969 on October 28, 2009, 10:33:12 PM
Even the World Banks are screwed... Time to pay the fiddler.
Last two You-Tubes on the page will sum it all up.

http://www.riseupforamerica.com/worldbanksrule.html

I've been busy trying to make a difference and had to put FE on the backburners but just like Herpes.., I'll be back.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on October 29, 2009, 12:14:46 AM
One can stock up on bars of soap and smokes for barter,I guess.Triffid
Good idea, triffid.
I have a small storage unit to put things like cans of food, electronic parts for a radiant energy wire system like some threads on the Extracting... Forum.

There are places to hide and stash things, even here in a city like San Francisco.

--Lee
Title: One more reason to see the end of the economy...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on November 04, 2009, 03:54:27 PM
I saw an Internet ad(advert, in Britain) a few days ago. 
As much as it was a promotional message, it maintained only about 10% of eligible homeowners have taken advantage of the American Gov't economic bailout and refinanced their mortgages.

Many of those subprime and Alt-A mortgages will reset to higher rates in the next few months.  That's about 6.5-8.5 million households.  Do these people have that much money to spend?  I doubt it.  In this recession, whoever loses their job through layoff has the same monetary predicament as having a risky subprime loan.   

Some homeowners could find themselves on the streets.

--Lee
Title: I like what Ron Paul said, but he didn't go fat enough...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on November 10, 2009, 01:54:17 AM
In Forbes magazine, Nov. 16, pg. 26, Ron Paul predicted a second great depression for the world and he maintained the current "recovery" would be short lived.  The Great Depression acted the same way before it really got started in the early 30's.

He didn't go far enough, in my opinion.  The collapse is coming because there are more problems looming on the horizon in this time period than in the Thirties. (The war in SE Asia, the impossibly high deficit, Hurricane Katrina and other costly disasters in the recent past---the present---and the future, poorly educated citizens compared to the Thirties, credit markets as a bubble just like the housing market bubble, and others.)

2010 at best, will probably be terrible for most people economically.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on November 13, 2009, 04:54:48 AM
X00013 said:
Quote
Understand ur needs as a human to survive from your wants, u need 4 things, firepower,firepower,firepower, and food.
The fourth one I'm getting ready to stock up on with cans and a can opener or two.

I'd avoid most people after the economy collapses.  The movie The Road with Viggo Mortenson is the reason why.   You never can tell what's around the next corner.
The first three ask for trouble of you're outnumbered.  I've always eventually seen that there's always someone around even stronger than the currently strongest man present.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on November 15, 2009, 03:48:36 AM
X00013 said:The fourth one I'm getting ready to stock up on with cans and a can opener or two.
Another reason why the ecomomy will collapse:

http://www.ufolab.info/Chinese_on_our_border.htm

Especially read the bottom of the page.  The rest is overwritten by a text editor?

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: onthecuttingedge2005 on November 15, 2009, 04:19:26 AM
Another reason why the ecomomy will collapse:

http://www.ufolab.info/Chinese_on_our_border.htm

Especially read the bottom of the page.  The rest is overwritten by a text editor?

--Lee

I am an experience rifle man with a 3 to 12 scope, me and my 308 savage and a homemade suppressor I can take at least 500 chinese invaders with me. I learned how to make suppressors when I was a teen, if China decides to invade I would have no problem assembling one within minutes and wait for them in non thermal rags! they will have a fat chance of seeing me once I am dug in and they will kiss my bullet.

now. how many experienced hunters do we have in America? then add the U.S Military and we got some game! go team!

I am a German American but I will fight to the death to protect this country more than you know, this country is awesome!
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on November 15, 2009, 04:26:08 AM
onthecuttingedge2005 said:
Quote
how many experienced hunters do we have in America? then add the U.S Military and we got some game! go team!
That's a strong point.  Lots of hunters in this country and they're good at it, too.  Revolutionary War II!

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: onthecuttingedge2005 on November 15, 2009, 05:17:40 AM
this is what the enemy invaders will be kissing under suppression on my end of the muzzle. 308 and it does some major damage. flack jacket, it will do you no good against a 308. it will penetrate
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on November 23, 2009, 10:51:19 PM
the_big_m_in_ok said:
Quote
Another reason why the economy will collapse:
The interest on the National Debt will reach at least $4.8 trillion by 2019, according to a writer for the www.CNNMoney.com in an article to the Internet on 11/20/2009.
That's not all, 10 states have deficits of 10-45+%. California, where I live, is one of them.  It's going to be utterly bad when these states begin reneging on debt, shortly.

We're running out of time.



@onthecuttingedge2005(Jerry):

http://www.ufolab.info/Chinese_on_our_border.htm
Especially read the bottom of the page.  The rest is overwritten by a text editor?

I forgot to make a point:
The think tanks in the military expect gangs to come after people in the *sticks* like you and they'll be civilians, not Chinese.  I imagine you'll treat them the same as the Chinese?  Remember the movie, "The Road?".

Same situation, basically.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Azorus on November 24, 2009, 07:35:40 AM
Hope you like this one.
http://cohort11.americanobserver.net/latoyaegwuekwe/multimediafinal.html
Just wonder how the American economy can grow in the 4th quarter if 10% of people don't have a job.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on November 24, 2009, 07:47:35 PM
Quote from: Azorus said:
[quote
Just wonder how the American economy can grow in the 4th quarter if 10% of people don't have a job.
The other 90% are on their own?  >:(   ::)

A double dip recession, if not an outright collapse, is coming.  It's only, "When."

--Lee


Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Azorus on November 25, 2009, 06:58:24 AM
I just wonder how it could really grow.  Jobless claims are still rising, although stabilizing.  Underemployment is a hugh unaddressed issue.  With those combined 4th quarter numbers can not be high, I don't see how they could even break even.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on November 25, 2009, 04:46:13 PM
Azorus said:
"Jobless claims are still rising, although stabilizing."

The rate per month is falling slowly.  The total is over 15 million. It's still too high and there's other things that can drive up the rate in the future, e.g., foreclosures and lack of consumer spending.





"I just wonder how it could really grow. ...  With those combined 4th quarter numbers can not be high, I don't see how they could even break even. ... "

I don't think the economy can grow in the long run.  I 'double dip' recession is the norm.  You're probably right about that.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on November 25, 2009, 10:29:11 PM

From what I have been hearing 'big m', and its starting to make sense to me as it sinks in...the economy is really way in the black.

It seems they have been neglecting to report the tremendous amount earned from investments and government owned systems and structures...which apparently substantially dwarf the minute by comparison money collected in taxes.

In other words we are all needlessly paying taxes !!!

Obviously they did that to keep us "occupied", and oblivious to our plight, and from rising above it and really getting to truly enjoy fruitful lives in our intended pursuit of happiness.

Instead they have duped us into pursuit of a dollar.

Scammed again, it looks like...and when you stop to consider what I just said in light of what is going on in the world at large, it seems like an all too realistic possibility.

They are just squeezing us to weaken our resolve enough to make us prone accept our slow decent into a life of virtual slavery...with no freedom to move about the earth freely, and no refuge or sanctuary because they own all our real property though property tax.

Everything is fine we just need to pull the plug on this video game they have people playing like a gambling addict on a slot machine.

Regards...

Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on November 26, 2009, 12:17:49 AM
@Cap-Z-ro
With respect to your Reply #189, I agree in full.  However, many, (many!) people could suffer for the decisions made by a few men in power.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on November 26, 2009, 05:03:00 AM

" However, many, (many!) people could suffer for the decisions made by a few men in power. "

Thats been the case throughout human history Lee...they just keep rotating the method and build up(always gradually), hoping nobody is noticing whats taking place.

Regards...

Title: Dubai's debt...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on November 28, 2009, 04:29:41 PM
Dubai owes banks $60,000,000,000 and merely the thought that they might default on it is causing stock markets in Asia and Europe to get jittery.

One more indication of the looming crisis.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: MasterPlaster on November 28, 2009, 10:23:34 PM
" However, many, (many!) people could suffer for the decisions made by a few men in power. "


Yes but a few will make huge bonuses even if the ordinary people are shafted.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on November 28, 2009, 10:53:00 PM
Yes but a few will make huge bonuses even if the ordinary people are shafted.
@MasterPlaster
Exactly.  That's business as usual.  There are, however, several hot problems getting worse as time elapses and any of these can bring down the system like a house of cards.  Dubai is one of them.  Lack of sufficient Chinese backing of our economy is another.  Future Inflation is one more.

It'll end when people wake up or a few hotheads make a fatal mistake with other physical people's lives or economically insecure money.

RE-EDIT
Abu Dabi is coming to Dubai's aid.  It may do no good if oil falls further in price.  It can, easily, from my personal experience.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: PaulLowrance on November 29, 2009, 06:25:10 AM
Is this a voting thread? Yes I believe the US economy will get better. Wait a minute, that's not much of a prediction because todays news already said that. The past several days the news stations, especially the business channel said for 1st month the entire US unemployement took a turn toward the positive. And the results from yesterdays busiest shopping day of the year was up from last year and online sales were up 30%!

But ... the global earth changes will eventually destroy world economies.  :(

Paul
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: onthecuttingedge2005 on November 29, 2009, 08:39:47 AM
Slap the dust off and try to get back on your horse, if it throws you off again then remount till you get it right.

I am sure you don't want to be chasing your horse when you could be riding off into the sunset!
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Doug1 on November 29, 2009, 11:59:24 AM
Unemployment in the US does not account for those who's insurance has run out. Those people are removed from the count even though they have not returned to work. It is a BS method of accounting. It does not include those who did not work long enough to collect once layed off or did not qualify under their state unemployment insurance rules.
 The depth of banking deception or in some peoples eyes are good business practices by banks has yet to be fully known.
Example if you move millions of defaulted mortgages into another column before a pending recession and call them something ells then you look better on paper to your stock holders. If on the other hand you take tarp funds and the gov asks to see your books after you take the money post recession then you would need a diaper change and you would want to give back that money pronto to avoid someone spilling the beans on your in house scam that would surely destroy any public confidence in the banking system.
  This economy reminds me of the skit from Monty Pythons Flying circus where the guy comes in with the dead parrot and the store owner tells him it's not dead it;s just sleeping.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on November 29, 2009, 12:26:03 PM
" Unemployment in the US does not account
for those who's insurance has run out. Those people are removed from the count even though they have not returned to work. It is a BS method of accounting. "

Those figures were arrived at by crack scientific team of US Climate Control experts, considered to be the vanguard of 'number crunchers'.

I have great confidence in their integrity and their findings.

Regards...

Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: PaulLowrance on November 29, 2009, 04:05:10 PM

"I Hope Obama Fails. Somebody's gotta say it." Rush Limbaugh

LOL, rush limbaugh is going insane on the radio lately. The recent economy numbers must be eating a hole in his stomach, that the stocks are soaring upward, the unemployment makes a turn for the better, black friday busiest shopping day of the year is actually up from last year, online sales up 30%, and real estate is picking up! Yehaw! And I thought it would take Obama ~ 4 years to turn the economy, thanks to the nightmare of G.W.Bush. Now it's upwards from here.

The real estate is unfortunate for me since over the past year I've been looking to eventually buy some rural land. Darn it, it's going up!  :( ;D ;D

Regards,
Paul
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on November 29, 2009, 04:42:07 PM

Give a listen what Bob Chapman has to say...

http://eclipptv.com/viewVideo.php?video_id=8516


Regards...

Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on November 29, 2009, 04:45:40 PM
Is this a voting thread?
It is, indeed.  You need to be a Member, though.
Quote
Yes I believe the US economy will get better.
I'll list the reasons I think it won't:
1) 80%-90% of the households qualified to refinance their subprime mortgages, won't.  And, rates will reset higher again in a few months.
2) Dubai may default on their loans.  That would destabilize the Asian financial markets in particular.
3) Confidence could collapse in national efforts by the Obama administration to prop up the economy.  If people don't trust the Gov't with their money, is all over.  No amount would be enough when Obama's policies call for printing more---which is what is happening now, or will, happen when they need more.
4) Europe, especially England, is worse off than us in this recession.  They don't have our economic size to stand on their own.  Just as bad for Asia---Japan and South Korea notwithstanding their size.
5) North Korea is governed by a maniac who could start a regional---or wider--war with South Korea.
6) Most of Africa is a powder keg--especially the Muslim countries.
7) The war in Southwest cannot be won militarily.  It's a black hole for American money.  No end in sight.
If the Afghans decide to bring in a lot more volunteers, they can perform WWII "Banzai! charges" that no amount of American Firepower can stop.  It's crazy, and would cost the Muslims a lot of lives, but it would stop the Americans.  There are more than enough Muslims to do the job.
Quote
Wait a minute, that's not much of a prediction because todays news already said that. The past several days the news stations, especially the business channel said for 1st month the entire US unemployement took a turn toward the positive. And the results from yesterdays busiest shopping day of the year was up from last year and online sales were up 30%!
My reasons against this are above.
Quote
But ... the global earth changes will eventually destroy world economies.  :(
There probably won't be "economies" by then.  :-\   :o   

--Lee 
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: onthecuttingedge2005 on November 29, 2009, 08:51:29 PM
It is, indeed.  You need to be a Member, though.I'll list the reasons I think it won't:
1) 80%-90% of the households qualified to refinance their subprime mortgages, won't.  And, rates will reset higher again in a few months.
2) Dubai may default on their loans.  That would destabilize the Asian financial markets in particular.
3) Confidence could collapse in national efforts by the Obama administration to prop up the economy.  If people don't trust the Gov't with their money, is all over.  No amount would be enough when Obama's policies call for printing more---which is what is happening now, or will, happen when they need more.
4) Europe, especially England, is worse off than us in this recession.  They don't have our economic size to stand on their own.  Just as bad for Asia---Japan and South Korea notwithstanding their size.
5) North Korea is governed by a maniac who could start a regional---or wider--war with South Korea.
6) Most of Africa is a powder keg--especially the Muslim countries.
7) The war in Southwest cannot be won militarily.  It's a black hole for American money.  No end in sight.
If the Afghans decide to bring in a lot more volunteers, they can perform WWII "Banzai! charges" that no amount of American Firepower can stop.  It's crazy, and would cost the Muslims a lot of lives, but it would stop the Americans.  There are more than enough Muslims to do the job.My reasons against this are above.There probably won't be "economies" by then.  :-\   :o   

--Lee

I think the U.S is at war with radical Taliban, not Muslims in general. many of the allies are Muslim fighting the Taliban radicals who want to over throw the government built on Muslim democracy.

define:democracy
a political system in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who can elect people to represent them.

radical Taliban don't want Muslims to have democracy.

in Iraq, we were at war with saddam's war regime not Sunnis or Shiite in general. now, Sunnis don't want Shiites to rule a democracy nation and Shiites don't want to give up their new found power which was Nil during saddams reign of Baath party power. U.S only remains in Iraq to prevent a major civil war outbreak, there is a civil war going on but not as severe as it would be if America just up and left. most of the civil war procrastinators are dead by Chopper and C-130 Spector fire. you really can't stop a suicide bomber unless you have x-ray vision at a distance. but the main front groups are getting slim this is why they are turning more to suicide bombing because they are short on men, it gives a shock and aww effect to make the situation seem alot more brutal to the entire world.

there must be a lot of people over there with bipolar disease! lol.

the radicals are converting to 'kamikaze Ninja' methods because it requires no rules of war and is effective against a war with rules.

Just my two pence.
Jerry
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on November 29, 2009, 10:14:27 PM
I think the U.S is at war with radical Taliban, not Muslims in general. ...
Right, I agree.  Moderate Muslims are help hostage by these sociopaths.
Quote
...many of the allies are Muslim fighting the Taliban radicals who want to over throw the government built on Muslim democracy.
define:democracy
a political system in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who can elect people to represent them.
radical Taliban don't want Muslims to have democracy. ...
Right again.  They can only change themselves, which they won't.
Quote
...the radicals are converting to 'kamikaze Ninja' methods because it requires no rules of war and is effective against a war with rules.
Just my two pence.
I agree.  They have all the patience they need.  They can win, too.  My careerbuilder resume' had a proposal to combat this development, and it's still there.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 04, 2009, 03:26:37 PM

Job market shows big improvement,

http://money.cnn.com/2009/12/04/news/economy/jobs_november/index.htm

Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 04, 2009, 03:34:55 PM

 Jobs are up. Real estate is up. Sales from the big shopping day of the year last week was up. Online sales are up over 30%. Stocks are soaring upward.  :)

The only thing is for Mother Earth to do her thing and cleanse the planet. Now that will hurt the economy!  :(

Paul
 
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on December 04, 2009, 04:17:15 PM
Jobs are up.
I think this is a double dip condition.  There are underlying problems in the economy not being addressed.
Quote
Real estate is up.
People are still borrowed, not seeing the past double dips of previous recessions.  Not good.  This is a mistake.
Quote
Sales from the big shopping day of the year last week was up. Online sales are up over 30%. Stocks are soaring upward.  :)
Borrowing and speculation.  Bubbles that were made by Obama's stimulus package(s).  These usually end badly when they deflate.  I live in Calif.(13% of the whole American GDP) and economic analysts here are scared.
Lots. Of. Gimmicky. Borrowing.
Quote
The only thing is for Mother Earth to do her thing and cleanse the planet. Now that will hurt the economy!  :(
People need to begin now, collectively on a grand scale, and they're not doing that.

--Lee

Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 04, 2009, 04:31:20 PM
The recent #'s don't lie. I'm glad the economy in *totality* is making a major turn toward the better, and all (in totality) is going well.  ;D   Just look out for Mother Earth though. She's pissed.  ;)
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Azorus on December 04, 2009, 04:32:33 PM
Agrees with big,

Some of the problems out there?

The remaining toxin mortgages that haven't been delt with.  some 76 billion dollars worth according to CNN, sorry no link.

The 1/3 of borrowers that are underwater.  Ya that is gonna drive up the housing market real quick...  also CNN

The all mighty deficit!  Look at it go up!

The underemployment problem where people have a job but not enough to pay for what they owe.

And the people who get taken off the Jobloss report because they no longer can receive unemployment benefits.

What did I leave out?
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on December 04, 2009, 05:01:51 PM
The recent #'s don't lie.
Politicians can lie, so the numbers can lie.  "Appearances can be deceiving."  ;D   >:(   ::)
Quote
Just look out for Mother Earth though. She's pissed.  ;)
People made a problem or made a natural process worse, but you're right.  It's bad.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Azorus on December 04, 2009, 05:49:42 PM
http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1945176,00.html?xid=rss-topstories-cnnpartner

Yep all is well here...
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 04, 2009, 06:40:04 PM
Politicians can lie, so the numbers can lie.  "Appearances can be deceiving."  ;D   >:(   ::)People made a problem or made a natural process worse, but you're right.  It's bad.

The politicians do not produce the numbers. If you think the data is incorrect, then show your evidence. Personally I believe Target, Sears, Walmart, Amazon.com, etc. when they publish their sales. I believe the real estate agencies when they report home sales are up. Etc. The references to the news items are available.

My brothers tells the family how well his business is doing, and what he's saying matches the trend reported by the media. When the economy began to fall, his business sales went down. When it began to increase recently, his sales went up.

So yes, to be clear here, my brother said his sales have been up for several months now, and actually he said he's had the best month ever! What does he sell? POS (point of sell) software. Who uses POS? Retail stores!!

Poor rush limbaugh! Oh how he and his followers wants Obama to fail-- rush said it.  BTW, last night news said Obama has received more death threats than any president in history.

Paul
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Azorus on December 04, 2009, 06:53:30 PM
The death threat thing is kinda disturbing.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on December 04, 2009, 08:55:18 PM
http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1945176,00.html?xid=rss-topstories-cnnpartner
Yep all is well here...
Right, Azorus, a lot of people realize their home is so far underwater in price, they walk out and mail in the keys to the bank, anyway.  And, to top it off, loan derivatives that got this money snowball rolling in the first place, are being sold and traded as before.  It's another bubble.  It'll burst as well.  Worse than the last time.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on December 04, 2009, 09:44:37 PM

If the "News" can be relied upon...the people who alledgedly made the death threats are likely those who's mortgages were foreclosed on by the banksers Obomba bailed out.

Regards...

Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 04, 2009, 10:06:40 PM
If the "News" can be relied upon...the people who alledgedly made the death threats are likely those who's mortgages were foreclosed on by the banksers Obomba bailed out.

Show a valid reference where Obama made the banks do that. Regardless, what Obama did was for the best of the entire country to prevent another great depression. Looks like the economy is picking up despite the nightmare George W. Bush put us in.

Paul
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on December 04, 2009, 10:09:40 PM

If it were not for George W. Bush we would all be attending services in a Mosque by now.

Regards...

Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: lumen on December 04, 2009, 10:15:30 PM
Bush did nothing but stagnate the country for eight years while his cronies sucked up all the dough.  :o
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: MasterPlaster on December 04, 2009, 11:30:22 PM
If it were not for George W. Bush we would all be attending services in a Mosque by now.

Regards...

Now I see you are talking out of your arse.
George Bush was propped up by his psychopath bosses to knock humanity some more.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on December 04, 2009, 11:32:06 PM

Something funny and relevant to a post above.

CNN’s Sanchez Retracts His Claim of a 400 Percent Increase in Presidential Death Threats:

http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/17547


Regards...

Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on December 04, 2009, 11:42:07 PM

" Now I see you are talking out of your arse.
George Bush was propped up by his psychopath bosses to knock humanity some more. "

Its always wise to get to know your fellow ou.com members before judging them...didn't think I had to include a 'guffaw' in Bush satire posts.

Well, that ruins my night...not the 'slight', but the lack of recognition.

This leaves me to delude that I must have been having conclusions of notoriety.

Regardless...


Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: ATT on December 04, 2009, 11:51:04 PM
Never mind, false alarm.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 05, 2009, 02:06:34 AM
If it were not for George W. Bush we would all be attending services in a Mosque by now.

US citizens would be attending mosques by now? And what country would have taken over the US?
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on December 05, 2009, 04:49:38 AM

*turns in comedy union membership card*

Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: ATT on December 05, 2009, 06:34:12 AM
I think it's the 'dry British humor', I almost bit, then I caught your act over at feet-to-the-fire and it slowly dawned on me...
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: exxcomm0n on December 05, 2009, 08:58:28 AM
Show a valid reference where Obama made the banks do that. Regardless, what Obama did was for the best of the entire country to prevent another great depression. Looks like the economy is picking up despite the nightmare George W. Bush put us in.

I have to laugh a bit at the "Bush Nightmare". It would not have been possible for the economic house of cards to be built if Clinton had not helped the commercial bank deregulation that  created the mortgage mess.

While I think Bush should be publicly flayed for terrorist actions against middle eastern nations  and killing his own citizens to buy oil @ the cost of 100,000's of lives, I don't think he was alone in any of his actions.
Democrats AND Republicans can't really be told apart and have been pretty synonymous in actions for decades.

As to Obama's bailout, where did BILLIONS of dollars go that can't be accounted for?
Do you think that "cash for clunkers" is going to have ANY positive impact on the environment when people were trading in vehicles for new ones that MIGHT get 3MPG better economy than what they traded?
Does committing to a new war theater with a "timeline" make any more sense then the Iraq "war" (if anyone is a terrorist, the USA is for using a terrorist act as a excuse to secure oil availability from the middle east)?

Stop thinking in terms that favor one party of the ruling bicameral class of US politics and start connecting the dots of how they are colluding to create a new wage-slave class.

You know, in the definition used today of  a terrorist (which is a silly made up term for obsfucation) all of the American founding fathers were one.
They were rich slave/land owners that didn't want to pay taxes and thought it within their rights to commit terrorist acts against the ruling gov't of the time.

Kinda sobering, eh?
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on December 05, 2009, 12:48:54 PM

" I think it's the 'dry British humor', I almost bit, then I caught your act over at feet-to-the-fire and it slowly dawned on me..."

...and to make things worse I'm not even British.


exxcomm has it right...it is manipulation from above...political parties are just false fronts.

Obusha and Bushbama have the same bosses.

Regards...

Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: ATT on December 05, 2009, 05:33:14 PM
Quote
...and to make things worse I'm not even British.

Ok, I'm laughing...

Quote
exxcomm has it right...it is manipulation from above...political parties are just false fronts.

Undoubtedly.

Now, what do you propose towards a solution?

Tony
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on December 05, 2009, 06:16:57 PM

Well, for starters...all protests against this global takeover would have to be situated outside the media outlets who indoctrinate the masses with supporting elitist propaganda...and with the various talking heads targeted personally on the signage.

Then we will see how eager they are to accept their payoff's for spreading lies, when becoming public pariah's is part of the package.

Regards...

Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: ATT on December 05, 2009, 10:12:17 PM
Well, for starters...all protests against this global takeover would have to be situated outside the media outlets...

Activism by way of protest is of limited use and premature protestation is self defeating.

1.) Define your agenda.
2.) Establish your legitimacy.
3.) Communicate your agenda.
4.) Grow your base.

If you can manage the first two, you can proceed to the third which (if effectively pursued) will lead to the fourth.

There is more.

Tony
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on December 05, 2009, 10:54:20 PM

All that is needed is a rotating presence in the places I indicated...the resulting public exhibitions as the culprits arrive and leave their "jobs" will be all over the net.

Public disgrace is not what these media whores are into...they love basking in their fame.

The old methods do not get to the puppet masters behind the curtain...wheres as with this new strategy somebody gets to endure well deserved public scorn.

When the messenger is intentionally deceiving you, the messenger must be held to account.

Regards...

Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: ATT on December 05, 2009, 11:43:22 PM
Quote
All that is needed is a rotating presence in the places I indicated...the resulting public exhibitions as the culprits arrive and leave their "jobs" will be all over the net.

And how do you propose to furnish this 'rotating presence' if you don't first engage a sufficient number through the methods mentioned previously?

Quote
The old methods do not get to the puppet masters behind the curtain...

As it is said: 'They that do not learn from history...'.

Tony
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on December 06, 2009, 12:22:47 AM
Democrats AND Republicans can't really be told apart and have been pretty synonymous in actions for decades.
I do actually have to agree with that one.  I never have voted for that reason.
Since I was in the US Air Force during the Vietnam war, I've had a real problem with official authority.
What to do about it?  I'll let the turkeys start killing each other off while I stay out of the way as much as possible.
Quote
As to Obama's bailout, where did BILLIONS of dollars go that can't be accounted for?
The same place several pallets of cash did in Iraq.  It disappeared after it was unloaded from the plane.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: ATT on December 06, 2009, 12:40:18 AM
Quote
...I never have voted for that reason.
Yeah, in those days we couldn't vote until we were 21, I was still in the military then (I think I was at Gitmo for that election). I'm a registered independent.

How's the move going, Lee? Haven't talked to you for awhile, Everything going OK?

Tony
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on December 06, 2009, 12:55:57 AM

To advance the issue...once people become fully aware these media heads have been snowing them, their next thought will be why, and who's paying them off.

Thats when things will really start to happen...one thought always leads to another.

I was hoping for some momentum from the 'Climate Conspiracy Scam' but the CBC and CTV whores are downplaying it, so its likely the major US outlets are also.

Outing the media whores has to be on the minds of others in the various activist groups by now also...I planted a seed or two there myself, nothing sprouting that I know of though.

The media head whores have many researchers and assistants who scour the net for stuff, so they have to be reading the things people are saying about them them already.

So, maybe one or two will break ranks and spill the beans soon.

It would be far better for them to be bad side of the bad guys for a little while, because they will and are being taken down from within...whereas the public is everywhere and has a long memory.

End of my rant of the week.

Regards...

Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: exxcomm0n on December 06, 2009, 01:36:57 AM
<snip>
Undoubtedly.
Now, what do you propose towards a solution?
Tony
Hi Tony,

Since "you" is a somewhat generic method of address, I'll interpret it as a question of open debate. ;)

I think that gov't officials should be held to the same standard as any other employee.
In short, they are YOUR employees! Start holding them accountable as such.

They should have independent review of their progress towards achieving the goals they promised as a condition of their successful election (aka getting hired) in a more timely manner than election only.

They should have to account for the use of their time while "on the clock" for the time spent on the job doing what they were "hired" to do.
In this day and age of webcams, twitter, blogging, GPS, biometrics, etc. (although electronic data is the absolute easiest type to manipulate and falsify) it shouldn't be hard to implement a regimen that makes them accountable and have their day-to-day activities be easily accessible public knowledge.

Their monetary renumeration (pay) should be based on their ability to achieve those goals in a manner that is the most cost effective for their employer (those that elected them) and impacts the environment the least, instead of having their pay raises being governed solely by themselves.
When was the last election for gov't pay raises you could vote on that you can remember?

Now all of these point to the idea that there needs to be a body that oversees the gov't, essentially a global overseeing committee OF gov't (or a gov't of gov't), but in being a governing body, it is just as susceptible to corruption and intractability as any gov't has proven to be.

How this can be accomplished is a task that is not easily undertaken or practiced by a keyboard jockey in 30 minutes worth of "thinking" and typing (which is essentially what I am).
Historically the only thing to bring about any of the principals I outline above is bloody revolution which I cannot, with clear conscience, suggest, yet.

I think that people need those intensely interested in current events and how the gov't has influenced those events to make sure that atrocities that have gone before not be repeated, or at least go unreported using modest and uncompensated methods (like posting to sites like this).
But the public has to listen and think, which is proven to not be easy or usual these days.

Other than that, realization of the aim of this site (free, or individually produced energy) would be a major stepping stone to wresting the power that gov't has accrued through slight of hand or public ennui back into the hands of the public.
It's the publics responsibility to want to listen and think about what they've heard to make gov't fear the wrath of the common man as the comman man fears the gov't today.

It might not happen as it's not easy or fun, but it is the only thing that will turn the tide towards (resolving) action.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on December 06, 2009, 01:48:33 AM
How's the move going, Lee? Haven't talked to you for awhile, Everything going OK?
I'm in San Francisco permanently, now.  However, permanent, affordable housing is a problem to acquire, especially in a serious recession like this one.  *The streets* are a looming issue if I don't get lucky.  I do have a good opportunity at one place I'll apply to shortly.  But, thanks for asking.

I haven't said much in the recent past because other Member's fairly political opinions, IMHO, were being discussed on particular subjects---Like: exactly whose to blame for getting all us Americans in a recession this bad?---that I considered subjective.  Plenty of blame to go around.  Numerical figures can be looked at more than one way and also cherry-picked for "correct interpretation".

I disagree with those who say economic conditions are getting better for the reasons I stated previously.  I say Obama is creating or maintaining another economic bubble and that's what the "recession improvement" proponents are looking at.  Several things could go wrong shortly or eventually.  History says so.  Many times.  Time will tell whether I'm right or wrong.

--Lee

 
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: ATT on December 06, 2009, 02:16:59 AM
Quote
End of my rant of the week.

Not at all, cap, it's good to rant every now and then, helps to centre us out.

Quote
I was hoping for some momentum from the 'Climate Conspiracy Scam'...

Not sure how much 'mileage' that's good for, I'm not convinced there's a connection there aside from media-play gaining more listeners that sniff 'conspiracy', however, that's not to say there isn't vested interests on both sides of the issue, there obviously are, maybe just not the ones you're gunning for.

Quote
...once people become fully aware these media heads have been snowing them, their next thought will be why, and who's paying them off.

You know, the phrases 'people', 'fully aware', 'next thought', might be hanging your hat on some pretty sketchy assumptions.

First:     they don't -listen-.
Second: they don't -hear- when they -do- listen.
Third:    they don't -care- when they -do- hear.

If you have an agenda that you believe in, it takes a lot of work to get others to get to the same place you're at in your head, but it's gotta be legitimised and you have to show them it's important enough to -them- that they should care about it.

Even then, it's an uphill battle that's going to take a lot more organisation than viral-marketing alone to get folks to sign-on.

Figure it out: there's 300M people in the U.S., let's say 100M are kids (don't know the actual number).
That leaves 200M adults with ages (and concerns) going across the board.

Now, go out and get the number of listeners to all the major talk-shows on radio and TV that could make use of (be sympathetic to) your agenda (numbers may be available on the web in a central location, if not, drop an email saying you're considering advertising, they'll shoot you the numbers and the demographics).

Remember, there's no 'ideology' in business, if your stuff fits their format, their listeners will love it, their advertisers will like it and you can probably get some 'play'.

But, you have to do your homework and put together a 'package' these guys can use - you have to 'pitch' the package and provide ongoing support info to keep it going (one-shot isn't going to get it).

Now, getting back to numbers: add the listener-figures together, subtract 20% (same listeners/multiple shows), divide 200M into that number...that's the percentage of adults in the U.S. you can potentially reach directly, you have to count on 'viral' for the others.

You do the same thing on the web, get air-play on C2C (they're always looking for content), pitch your website, provide RSS feeds for your content, get your SEO and backlinks working, do guest spots on other blogs, keep the momentum going, don't let up for a minute.

It's a big job, dude, takes a lot of work and a lot of organization if your serious about getting it out there.

But the first thing you have to do, before any of this, is to investigate your assumptions, identify the individuals and organizations and assemble the 'facts' that back up your hypothesis, otherwise you won't get to square-1.

Tony

Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: ATT on December 06, 2009, 02:44:32 AM

I think that people need those intensely interested in current events and how the gov't has influenced those events to make sure that atrocities that have gone before not be repeated, or at least go unreported using modest and uncompensated methods (like posting to sites like this).
But the public has to listen and think, which is proven to not be easy or usual these days.

(And, yes, 'you' is a generic reference, in this case...but you don't need an invitation, your thoughts are most welcome, anytime on any issue).

Your ideas are right-on, you are definitely the 'voice of reason', but like I said in my post to cap (and you've said the same thing here), getting people to listen requires an 'industrial-strength' solution to bring about.

There is just a small segment that's actually 'interested' and only a percentage of those who would be willing to participate to any degree.

That is, until things fall in on their head, then it's too late.

Tony



Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: ATT on December 06, 2009, 03:07:41 AM
I disagree with those who say economic conditions are getting better for the reasons I stated previously.  I say Obama is creating or maintaining another economic bubble and that's what the "recession improvement" proponents are looking at.

Lee,  I think it's going to go double-dip too, just a matter of time (and it won't be a 'long-time'...).

I think we've both visited this subject before, but more recent posters weren't in on the beginnings so may have missed some of what was said.

In any event, I ran across an article on the web a couple of weeks ago that talked about three guys who bought an apartment bldg. in SF on some sort of government program - they didn't have any money for a down and I think they qualified as vets for reduced payments, but they got it.

I don't know what the program is, didn't save it out, but the VA may have some info on this.

Is SF the city of choice or is it that you have access to VA there? The reason I mention this is it's probably the highest rent-district in the state, but there is easy-access there (trolley, bus, train, plane) and anything you want within a small area (NYC is kinda like that, too).

Anyway, if I can dig up that article I'll shoot you a link.

Tony

Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on December 06, 2009, 05:34:28 AM
... In any event, I ran across an article on the web a couple of weeks ago that talked about three guys who bought an apartment bldg. in SF on some sort of government program - they didn't have any money for a down and I think they qualified as vets for reduced payments, but they got it.
That may be possible.  I believe the VA program for small business investment concerns runs on a different set rules than commercial projects.
Quote
Is SF the city of choice or is it that you have access to VA there?
Both, really.  The weather suits me best and I'm familiar with the city.
Quote
The reason I mention this is it's probably the highest rent-district in the state, but there is easy-access there (trolley, bus, train, plane) and anything you want within a small area (NYC is kinda like that, too).
I see the similarities.  I think it's safe to say, though, that both cities have different kinds of people living in it.
Quote
Anyway, if I can dig up that article I'll shoot you a link.
Sure, I'd like to see it.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on December 06, 2009, 06:08:29 AM
Something funny and relevant to a post above.
CNN’s Sanchez Retracts His Claim of a 400 Percent Increase in Presidential Death Threats:
http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/17547
Regards...
I read the article.  The same could be said for Hillary Clinton.  More death threats.  She's a woman and if she would have won the election, the Arab nations and other Muslim nations would probably have had nothing to do with her.  Women have no voice in their culture.

My point is:  The streets are getting more and more angry.  I've been on the streets and I know what these people are like.  The average American is getting to their level of poverty slowly, but surely.  And their anger is probably rising.  Mine would, if I was any of them.

That may be one of the reasons why guns are flying off the shelves in gun shops as I write.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on December 06, 2009, 12:39:42 PM

According to a guy that makes a lot of sense, the amount collected in taxes by the US Gov. represents only 1/3 of their receivables.

In other words there is no real need for taxes..other than to keep the vast majority of people from rising above the level of wage slave.

Regards...

Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on December 06, 2009, 04:10:59 PM
According to a guy that makes a lot of sense, the amount collected in taxes by the US Gov. represents only 1/3 of their receivables.
And the Gov't has to borrow the rest?  For example, I read in an Internet article, just glancing quickly, that the money paid for the national debt is being borrowed while at the same time, the debt was also borrowed.  $Trillions.  The interest can be paid off only if we live to be 1,000+ yrs old.
Quote
In other words there is no real need for taxes..other than to keep the vast majority of people from rising above the level of wage slave.
Good thinking; they probably want us to be dependent on a job to pay taxes for their salary and retirement account.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: ATT on December 06, 2009, 05:00:33 PM
@cap:

Here's a chart (believe it or don't):
www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/background/numbers/revenue.cfm

This may be the person you were talking about:
http://www.devvy.com/notax.html

Never heard of her, let's do a look-up:

Kidd, Devvy
   ATTN: DEVVY.COM
   c/o Network Solutions
   P.O. Box 459
   Drums, PA.  18222
   Domain Name: DEVVY.COM
   Record expires on 30-Jun-2011.
   Record created on 01-Jul-1998.

She's been around for 11 years, has a legit registration.

Appears to be a right-wing anti-tax constitutionalist.

Here's an opposing view:
http://www.quatlosers.com/devvy_kidd.htm

Registrant Contact:
   Whois Privacy Protection Service, Inc.
   Whois Agent ()
   
   Fax:
   PMB 368, 14150 NE 20th St - F1
   C/O quatlosers.com
   Bellevue, WA 98007
   US
Creation date: 03 May 2002 17:21:13
Expiration date: 03 May 2010 17:21:00

Appears to be an anti-fraud site.

Looks like these guys want anonymity, been around about for 7 years.

Dunno, I guess you have to beat the bushes a little to get a feel for her (or whoever was referred to) legitimacy.

Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: ATT on December 06, 2009, 08:58:26 PM
@Lee

Hey Lee, i found that article, check it out:

http://www.businessinsider.com/fha-loans-help-three-broke-dudes-by-a-million-dollar-building-in-san-francisco-2009-11

Tony
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on December 06, 2009, 09:17:54 PM
@Lee
Hey Lee, i found that article, check it out:
http://www.businessinsider.com/fha-loans-help-three-broke-dudes-by-a-million-dollar-building-in-san-francisco-2009-11
Tony
Hey Tony,
The article above should be a record breaker!!!!!   >:(   :P   ::)
My misgivings:
A)  With no job now, how will these guys pay back the loan???  Can they start some business and then use the duplex as part of that business?  In a recession?!?!  Did the phrase "business plan" enter the conversation along the line???  How about "collateral"????
B)  Congressional oversight is needed!!!!  This is as bad as the housing crisis, but in a bigger scale!!!  And they'll create(the FHA) more of these loans!?!?

I usually don't get this worked up, but I have the firm conviction that the Obama bubble will certainly pop with more transactions like this one being made.
It's only a matter of time.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on December 06, 2009, 09:58:55 PM

" Congressional oversight is needed!!!! "

If I had water in my mouth I would have done a 'spit take' when I read that phrase Lee.

Those clowns don't even read the Bills they sign and support...and they don't hide it either.

The fact that that doesn't seem to bother anyone is whats really  bothersome.

Sometimes I wonder why I bother...but before long slavery starts bothering me again, reminding me why I bother.

Its like being nagged by a plaintive cry off in the distance during quiet times.

More and more I envision the fruitful lives we could all be living in this world of plenty...were it not for the greed and selfish manipulation of a few.

There nothing I avoid more than numbers and economics, but even I can understand the logic behind the words of Walter Burien.

He has been around a long time...hear what he has to say here...

http://cafr1.com/

Regards...

Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: ATT on December 06, 2009, 11:02:20 PM

This is as bad as the housing crisis, but in a bigger scale!!!  And they'll create(the FHA) more of these loans!?!?

...So, hey, you wanna get in on this...free money, no down, no job required??
(I think we're -all- 'in on this', whether we like it or not...).

Tony
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: ATT on December 07, 2009, 12:17:00 AM
@Lee
Ok, I think I figured it out:

Form a non-profit, spot a property in town, go down to the FHA and float a business loan, then turn around and contract-out as a VA half-way-house extension.

That way, the government pays the mortgage on the property that they lent you the money to buy!

It's definitely in keeping with the 'overunity' theme.

I think you gotta go for it...

Tony
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: ATT on December 07, 2009, 12:34:09 AM
He has been around a long time...hear what he has to say here...
http://cafr1.com/

Cap, good link!

I've just read this one, so far:
http://cafr1.com/WhoRulesAmerica.html

Well written, proper attributions, factual...that's more like it.

Thanks for the link, I'll read some more and get back to you.

Tony
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on December 07, 2009, 12:40:28 AM
@Cap-Z-ro
With respect to your immediately previous post:

I've never seen people change greatly for the better in human history.  As much I don't go in for Biblical prophesy, the Book of Enoch says the "about" same thing as the the Book of Revelations.

Wipe the slate clean and start all over again with humanity somewhere else in the universe?  Looks like it's time for the finale.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on December 07, 2009, 12:54:05 AM
...So, hey, you wanna get in on this...free money, no down, no job required??
(I think we're -all- 'in on this', whether we like it or not...).
Tony
Well, I've got a "thing" for honesty.  I've got a "thing" against prison, even though some past and present financial CEO's---or other perpetrators---may need, or deserve,   ;D  an extended stay at the nearest penitentiary.

That brings up my next point:
Anyone can complain about the economic/political climate, but politicians/lawyers write and enforce the laws using hired men and guns we paid for.
 >:(   >:(   >:(   >:( 
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: ATT on December 07, 2009, 01:13:17 AM
...financial CEO's may need, or deserve,   ;D  an extended stay at the nearest penitentiary.

And a lot of 'em are in there, as a matter of fact..(what? You didn't like the financial perpetual-motion idea?).

Quote
Anyone can complain about the economic/political climate, but politicians/lawyers write and enforce the laws using guns we paid for.

That they do, skim through that article about 'power' that I linked to a few posts back, has some good facts to draw inferences from.

As to human nature, it won't change, it's been rock-solid 'the same' for as long as we've been able to trace the records.

Every now and again there's a little 'hiccup', but it's temporary, we always revert.

Tony
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on December 07, 2009, 01:59:19 AM

Walter really knows how to simplify things. making it easy for anyone to understand.

" Wipe the slate clean and start all over again with humanity somewhere else in the universe?  Looks like it's time for the finale."

I'll be hoping to catch a flight out if that happens.

Regards...

Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: ATT on December 07, 2009, 04:55:05 AM
@Cap
This looked pretty 'conspiratorial':
http://cafr1.com/MAV.html

Wonder how running a jammer broadcasting on these freqs (L1 & L2 - maybe L5 too) would effect GPS receivers?
(schematic at bottom)
http://servv89pn0aj.sn.sourcedns.com/~gbpprorg/mil/gps/

This guy says:
"If fitted with an omnidirectional antenna instead of the Yagi beam, the Aviaconversiya system is touted as capable of preventing a cruise missile from finding its mark."
http://archive.chipcenter.com/TestandMeasurement/ed030.html

From Wikipedia:
Satellite frequencies
    * L1 (1575.42 MHz): Mix of Navigation Message, coarse-acquisition (C/A) code and encrypted precision P(Y)       code, plus the new L1C on future Block III satellites.
    * L2 (1227.60 MHz): P(Y) code, plus the new L2C code on the Block IIR-M and newer satellites.
    * L3 (1381.05 MHz): Used by the Nuclear Detonation (NUDET) Detection System Payload (NDS) to signal detection of nuclear detonations and other high-energy infrared events. Used to enforce nuclear test ban treaties.
    * L4 (1379.913 MHz): Being studied for additional ionospheric correction.
    * L5 (1176.45 MHz): Proposed for use as a civilian safety-of-life (SoL) signal (see GPS modernization).

Better fire-up the ol' soldering-station...

Tony
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on December 07, 2009, 06:47:49 AM
Walter= Lee(the_big_m_in_ok; Reply #251)really knows how to simplify things. making it easy for anyone to understand.
" Wipe the slate clean and start all over again with humanity somewhere else in the universe?  Looks like it's time for the finale."
I'll be hoping to catch a flight out if that happens.
Regards...
@Cap-Z-ro
Don't get excited about the mistaken identification; it happens.

I think the movie 2012 has some validity.  There isn't anywhere on the planet to hide.  That's why I said, "finale".  (I have a hunch you were kidding about the 'flight out'.)

Really, though.  I'm not afraid of the future.  I get by and do the best I can.  Some people have heavy karma heading their way, though.  Everything works out in the end.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on December 07, 2009, 12:13:22 PM

"@Cap
This looked pretty 'conspiratorial':
http://cafr1.com/MAV.html "

You mean you haven't yet realized that there is an elitist conspiracy to turn the masses into slaves ?


" Insert Quote
Quote from: Cap-Z-ro on Today at 01:59:19 AM

    Walter= Lee(the_big_m_in_ok; Reply #251)really knows how to simplify things. making it easy for anyone to understand.
    " Wipe the slate clean and start all over again with humanity somewhere else in the universe?  Looks like it's time for the finale."
    I'll be hoping to catch a flight out if that happens.
    Regards...

@Cap-Z-ro
Don't get excited about the mistaken identification; it happens.

I think the movie 2012 has some validity.  There isn't anywhere on the planet to hide.  That's why I said, "finale".  (I have a hunch you were kidding about the 'flight out'.)

Really, though.  I'm not afraid of the future.  I get by and do the best I can.  Some people have heavy karma heading their way, though.  Everything works out in the end.

--Lee "


Lee, I was referring to Walter Burien, check out my link.

I'm not afraod of anything either...its all just an experience along the way.

Regards...

Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Azorus on December 07, 2009, 02:21:00 PM
It's really easy to say that "they" want to turn the masses into slaves, but what does that really mean.  Slave is a limited title.  And I highly doubt anyone with any kind of education would agree with you, that they could be turned into a slave.  I think the word you are looking for is minion.  minions are or can be relatively intellegent, and will do what you want them to do for the most part.  Do you mean that "they" want to turn the masses into Their Minions?  I'm pretty sure that is what you mean.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on December 07, 2009, 04:49:32 PM

Now just look up the meaning of slave, and make the obvious comparisons...and there is your lesson for the day.

Regards...

 
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Azorus on December 07, 2009, 05:22:14 PM
I just don't think people would admit to being a slave.  All I'm saying is they would be more likely to say they are a minion or even better a patsy, rather than say they are bending to the will of another.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Azorus on December 07, 2009, 05:31:16 PM
Just out of curiosity did anyone think to ask the question as to why they are devaluing the dollar?
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on December 07, 2009, 05:34:21 PM
...And a lot of 'em are in there, as a matter of fact..(what? You didn't like the financial perpetual-motion idea?).
As in, "the status quo of gluttonous greed forever?"  Something always happens to stop that eventually.  Greed is it's own reward/punishment.

There was a news spot on the TV or internet recently that I remembered:
The drug war in Mexico is getting huge and grave in its consequences.  People living along the border are getting really angry that both Bush and Obama were/are sitting on their but while all this was/is going on.

Mexico could collapse politically if this Mexican military confrontation with the cartels continues.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on December 07, 2009, 05:52:23 PM
Lee, I was referring to Walter Burien, check out my link.
Well, I did briefly look at some of the financially-oriented articles associated with the site.  Money isn't something I place an obsessive desire upon to acquire like our Gov't.
Conspiracy is more immediate to my future well-being, however.  That one about the census taker with the GPS tracker raises alarms in my mind, too.  It just confounds me why they thinks it's so important to know the exact location of building entrances.  Ulterior motives?

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: ATT on December 07, 2009, 05:54:07 PM
minion:
1. a favourite or dependant, esp a servile or fawning one.
2. a servile agent (the minister's minions).

slave:
1. a person legally owned by another and having no freedom of action or right to property.
2. a person who is forced to work for another against his will.
3. a person under the domination of another person or some habit or influence (a slave to television).

An arguable distinction, although one may -choose- to be a minion whereas slavery is forced.

Tony
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: ATT on December 07, 2009, 06:22:02 PM
As in, "the status quo of gluttonous greed forever?"  Something always happens to stop that eventually.  Greed is it's own reward/punishment.

Excesses are self-correcting, but not time-limited, a lot of damage can ensue while waiting for the correction.

Tony
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: ATT on December 07, 2009, 08:52:49 PM

Well, I did briefly look at some of the financially-oriented articles associated with the site.  Money isn't something I place an obsessive desire upon to acquire like our Gov't.

Studying financial dealings may give a sense of where the power is and what effects that may have on the rest of us.

Quote
That one about the census taker with the GPS tracker raises alarms in my mind, too.  It just confounds me why they thinks it's so important to know the exact location of building entrances.  Ulterior motives?

A lot of times one agency gets tasked to do a specific job and other agencies add things they need done to the first agency's tasks because it's expedient.

Homeland Security: add data for tracking, locating.
Police Database: add data for tracking, locating.
National 911 database: add data for tracking, locating.

Possible reasons?

Locate felons, locate illegals, locate deadbeat dads, locate government debtors, locate terrorists, swat planning, emergency medical location, emergency evacuation locations, etc.

Of course that doesn't exclude other more nefarious possibilities.

Tony
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on December 08, 2009, 02:29:44 AM

Lee, all Walter's theories, as stated in his interviews, all refer back to a Gov't. Conspiracy.


I do not choose slavery, however I am forced into it.

The fact that I cannot "own" my 'own' property is testament to that.

Regards...

Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on December 08, 2009, 05:17:01 AM
Lee, all Walter's theories, as stated in his interviews, all refer back to a Gov't. Conspiracy.
Okay, and I agree.  It's a conspiracy.  However, I know quite well I have no way as an individual to change *their* minds toward my *slavery* being their choice to impose.  I'll let them suffer from the karma they're making now, however.
Quote
I do not choose slavery, however I am forced into it. ... The fact that I cannot "own" my 'own' property is testament to that.
I don't choose *slavery*, either.  But they don't own my free will to think for myself.  That's why I don't participate in the money games they play.

They. Can. Suffer. On The. Day. They. Die.

I couldn't stop them if I tried.  I'm not so stupid as to try the impossible.  I'll let them go and do what they want to.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: ATT on December 08, 2009, 06:06:33 AM
I do not choose slavery, however I am forced into it.

If you accept that you are a slave, you've made it so.

Quote
The fact that I cannot "own" my 'own' property is testament to that.

The only thing anyone 'owns' is what they 'know', the rest we just get to 'use' for a while.

...I'll let them go and do what they want to.

We all have absolute freedom of choice, given that we accept the 'consequenses' of those choices.

We don't have to accept circumstances others seek to impose, we can choose to ignore overtures, threats and trends and proceed on the path our conscience directs.

We can't expect others to share that direction, it's an individual matter, but any company is welcome to share the road.

Tony
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on December 08, 2009, 12:32:28 PM

" If you accept that you are a slave, you've made it so."

What is your point ?

Regards...

Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on December 08, 2009, 04:11:07 PM
Just out of curiosity did anyone think to ask the question as to why they are devaluing the dollar?

Here's a possible answer:

http://www.financialsense.com/editorials/vronsky/2009/0403.html

The USA appears to need to print it's way out of the recession.
I'd rather like to return to the topic of this thread.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Azorus on December 08, 2009, 04:22:10 PM
Just wait till bubbles come back.  That's when you know all hell has broken loss, or when a roll of TP is 50$.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on December 08, 2009, 06:20:53 PM
Just wait till bubbles come back.
They're back now.  Some economists recognize that with indicators rising as they are, that would define a bubble(s).  The next *pop* will be extreme, since it's the second in a row.
Quote
  That's when you know all hell has broken loss, or when a roll of TP is 50$.
Social unrest is predicted by one or more think tanks on that one.  Think of what happened to the ancient Roman Empire in the 5th Century after it collapsed.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Azorus on December 08, 2009, 06:59:19 PM
http://www.pravenue.com/newsletter.asp?article=2239

while i doubt garlic will be a problem in the us, think of this in terms of the housing problem that is just starting to bubble up again.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on December 08, 2009, 10:16:57 PM

These two guys will get right down to the very core of how things have been set up, and how this impacts on the economy and essentially every aspect of your life.


" 1. You are legally a debtor and chattel (property) owned by a hidden creditor.
2. There is a hidden lien on everything transacted for by or with a Federal Reserve Note.
3. Your entire alleged wealth is/has been liened, you don’t own anything! You merely have possession by privilege. This privilege may be yanked at any time if you don’t obey the real owner.
4. The Federal Reserve Note is a foreign product owned by a foreign corporation, and not by you or the U.S. government
.5. The States and the United States courts are bankruptcy courts representing the interests and property of the foreign creditor.
6. Without knowing it, you have been compelled into international commercial law, where you have none of your unalienablerights. Hence, you have been insulated from your birthright, the common Law from which your rights are immutable
7. You are charged an income (excise) tax for transacting in the foreign commodity known as Federal Reserve Notes.
8. You have been divested of the rights to, value of, and profits from your labor, which has been stolen.
9. Lawful gold coin (pre 1933) money transactions are invisible to the states and national government(s).
10. The real cause of draconian governmental regulation and your loss of rights is the toxic currency.
11. The United States lost its sovereignty in 1933. It is in receivership to the hidden creditor. The bankrupt government is a puppet to the real master, as declared by Banker Rothschild on the cover.
12. The real cause of the current economic calamity is the toxic currency.
13. The hidden creditor (international bankers) owns everything, including you.
14. You have been living within an illusion, believing that you are free, but in reality you are owned! "

http://www.newpeopleorder.com/links.html


I hope this gives you a deeper perspective, it certainly gave me a clearer picture.

In all honesty, I will have to listen to them speaking a few more times before the whole I fully understand the ins and outs of it.

Regards...

Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on December 08, 2009, 11:28:44 PM
http://www.pravenue.com/newsletter.asp?article=2239
while i doubt garlic will be a problem in the us, think of this in terms of the housing problem that is just starting to bubble up again.
Speaking of bubbles, I read in an Internet article, the rate of borrowing for retail purchases fell for the 8th month in a row.  Analysts maintain that this, along with other indicators(e.g, continued high unemployment), bode poorly for the "recovery", whatever that is.   ;D   :P

RE-EDIT:

http://www.dailyfinance.com/2009/11/06/u-s-consumer-credit-debt-falls-for-eighth-straight-month/

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: exxcomm0n on December 09, 2009, 02:51:25 AM
K then.

On the whole slave/chattel/minion thing, it boils down to each humans ultimate power (if you're brave enough to exercise it).

Live free or die

(if anyone remembers it was on New Hampshires flag with a following line that read, "There are worse evils than death".)

This means to me that you'll never be a slave if you choose not to live as one. No one can make you a slave if you deny to be afraid of not seeing another day.

It's a tough gig, and I'm not sure if I will live up to my brave words should the day come where they need to become a real life choice, but it makes sense that a slave is more afraid of death than living as a slave.

A slave lives in fear, a man dies free.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on December 09, 2009, 04:30:16 AM

Have to admit, I have been wrestling with that one for a time now.

Regards...

Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: raburgeson on December 09, 2009, 11:23:44 AM
The big new bubble being held up now is the medical industry. It needs to pop. Even mandatory insurance can't sustain a bubble this size. Instead it will delay the pop. I took a guy in a few weeks ago and the hospital gave him a breathing treatment and a prescription, 4 hours, $2000. We have mandatory auto insurance in my state. There is no competition between these companies and no over sight on these gougers. The price is as ridiculous and if you have to drive you have to pay it. The same thing is going to happen with health insurance. The government says it will have a non profit insurance. The reality is this will be the go ahead for the medical industry to raise prices even higher and the insurance cost will continually rise. There will be no check and balance for the people and the bubble will be propped up far beyond imagination. This is a short explanation of part of the fake economy we suffer under. Our debt (most of it) is as fake as the FED. I hope to see everything to crash so bad they can't even think of the illegal, treasonous American Union. I'd like to see even Mexico in a position to tell DC to go to hell.

The Russians checkmated the gas grab in Afghanistan making the pipeline worthless. Why 30,000 more troops? Poppys?
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Azorus on December 09, 2009, 03:40:23 PM
The 30000 troops is to end the war, trust me end the war weather or not it works.  Poppys are being salted, or turned to pomagraded trees, it is.  People are the deciding factor as to when the bubbles burst.  In saying that I mean that when people wake up to what is happening and have finally had enough is when change will occur.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on December 09, 2009, 04:13:30 PM
The 30000 troops is to end the war, trust me end the war weather or not it works.
Here's one I agree on fore sure.  If Obama sends more troops, even more Muslims extremists will volunteer to fight them.  Genghis Khan couldn't conquer the Afghans, and we won't beat the combined strength of hugely favorable numbers of fighters on their side.  There's too many of them.
Quote
...Poppys are being salted, or turned to pomagraded trees, it is. 
It's pissing of the Afghans, too.  They want money to live on.  Pomegranates aren't enough.
Quote
People are the deciding factor as to when the bubbles burst.  In saying that I mean that when people wake up to what is happening and have finally had enough is when change will occur.
Right, exactly.  It's all "smoke and mirrors" when it comes to money.  If the American public has no confidence in the system, then $trillions won't help.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Azorus on December 09, 2009, 04:19:28 PM
the way things look to me is that Obama is for the American people.  He is, like all other Americans, put in a tough situation.  Look at how much older he looks today than when he first went into office because of all the stress that is put on him.  I don't think he wants anything but the best for America, but it can be a very hard thing to decide with so much "smoke" blown in your face.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on December 09, 2009, 04:50:15 PM
the way things look to me is that Obama is for the American people. ...
Okay, but he's also described as receiving a lot of threats from different people.  Maybe he's outnumbered by criminals?  People aren't all that happy if they threaten him.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on December 09, 2009, 04:55:25 PM

For the record - Obomba promised to end the "war" as soon as he got elected...he lied...its as simple as that.

Regards...

Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Azorus on December 09, 2009, 04:56:53 PM
True.  Anyone have guesses as to why the dollar is being devalued?
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on December 09, 2009, 05:53:08 PM
True.  Anyone have guesses as to why the dollar is being devalued?
My reply #271, pg. 28

The Gov't wants to restart the economy like it was done in the past?  Print the money and spend?

Obama is borrowing it.  That won't help in the future when the bills are due.

When the public runs out of patience with the Gov't, no amount of money will be enough.  The money and the Administration won't be trusted.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: exxcomm0n on December 10, 2009, 05:05:09 AM
Money is an idea.

Money is what ever people believe has value, so use it while there is still belief in it for durable goods, tools, food, and education (as to how to use tools, grow food, and be economical with what you have).

If you are hungry and cold no amount of gold will warm or feed you unless someone wants that gold because other people want gold as well.
But if everyone is hungry and cold no amount of gold will buy food and warmth.

If you're looking for a long range investment strategy look at "seal-a-meal" vacuum packaging systems, how to use 5 gal buckets as inert gas (CO2 or N2) bulk grain containers, how to make jerky or lard meat for storage, how to can fruits and vegetables, etc. as even if there are not shortages of food you can still use your investments to feed yourself and your family.

Also think about cases of disposable lighters, chapstick, aloe plants, knives, aspirin and other kinds of medicine with long shelf lives, Anbesol (or oil of cloves) and soft wax for dental, vegetable (I prefer olive) oil, peanut butter, vitamin C, canned tuna fish, cotton balls, paper with large rag content,  etc.

Things you use every day and think of having little value suddenly become priceless when the store isn't there anymore (or you can't afford to go there). 
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: ATT on December 12, 2009, 09:57:54 PM

I was banging around this site for a while gathering data for various calculators I'm writing to help my son-in-law with his accounting studies. Among the articles (of which there are several) I happened on this one which I thought described one aspect of the current economic condition...and it's ultimate result, quite well.

Worth the read if you've followed any of the discussion on this thread.

http://inflationdata.com/inflation/Inflation_Articles/The_calm_before_the_Inflation_Storm.asp
.

Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on December 12, 2009, 10:31:32 PM
Worth the read if you've followed any of the discussion on this thread.
http://inflationdata.com/inflation/Inflation_Articles/The_calm_before_the_Inflation_Storm.asp
.
@ATT
You're right, it's a good article, with links to others just as good.

We're running out of time on the economic bandwagon, until people lose confidence in the banking system.

After that, it's everyone for himself.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: ATT on December 12, 2009, 10:51:27 PM
...After that, it's everyone for himself.

And that's the point we've been trying to make right along...

Tony
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: silverfish on December 13, 2009, 03:29:31 PM
These two guys will get right down to the very core of how things have been set up, and how this impacts on the economy and essentially every aspect of your life.


" 1. You are legally a debtor and chattel (property) owned by a hidden creditor.
2. There is a hidden lien on everything transacted for by or with a Federal Reserve Note.
3. Your entire alleged wealth is/has been liened, you don’t own anything! You merely have possession by privilege. This privilege may be yanked at any time if you don’t obey the real owner.
4. The Federal Reserve Note is a foreign product owned by a foreign corporation, and not by you or the U.S. government
.5. The States and the United States courts are bankruptcy courts representing the interests and property of the foreign creditor.
6. Without knowing it, you have been compelled into international commercial law, where you have none of your unalienablerights. Hence, you have been insulated from your birthright, the common Law from which your rights are immutable
7. You are charged an income (excise) tax for transacting in the foreign commodity known as Federal Reserve Notes.
8. You have been divested of the rights to, value of, and profits from your labor, which has been stolen.
9. Lawful gold coin (pre 1933) money transactions are invisible to the states and national government(s).
10. The real cause of draconian governmental regulation and your loss of rights is the toxic currency.
11. The United States lost its sovereignty in 1933. It is in receivership to the hidden creditor. The bankrupt government is a puppet to the real master, as declared by Banker Rothschild on the cover.
12. The real cause of the current economic calamity is the toxic currency.
13. The hidden creditor (international bankers) owns everything, including you.
14. You have been living within an illusion, believing that you are free, but in reality you are owned! "

http://www.newpeopleorder.com/links.html


I hope this gives you a deeper perspective, it certainly gave me a clearer picture.

In all honesty, I will have to listen to them speaking a few more times before the whole I fully understand the ins and outs of it.

Regards...

'They own it all including you' by Rowen and MacDonald,
and 'The Creature from Jekyll Island' By G. Edward Griffin' is well worth checking out.

There's also an informative DVD called the Money Masters (www.themoneymasters.com) which shows how this all started and the Rothschilds began their controlling foothold on the economy. The early gold traders didn't have enough gold on deposit to meet the demand, so they got the idea of issuing slips of paper instead... now we have fractional reserve lending where banks can lend out 10 times what they have on deposit.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on December 13, 2009, 04:24:31 PM

I have previously posted, 'They own it all including you' by Rowen and MacDonald...I believe it was in this thread.

'The Creature from Jekyll Island' by G. Edward Griffin' doesn't ring a bell, by title anyway...I will have a look though, thanks.

Regards...

Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Azorus on December 15, 2009, 01:55:08 PM
Peanut-Butter Jelly!

http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2009/12/11/the-future-of-gold-the-dollar-and-more.aspx

http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2009/12/11/bailouts-gone-astray.aspx

just some articles i ran across.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on December 20, 2009, 12:29:56 AM
Peanut-Butter Jelly!
http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2009/12/11/the-future-of-gold-the-dollar-and-more.aspx
http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2009/12/11/bailouts-gone-astray.aspx
just some articles i ran across.
I came across a couple myself:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601102&sid=a7GQeqld1g3o&refer=uk

http://finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticker/article/391552/is-sovereign-debt-the-new-subprime

Even if the American economy "improves"(  ;D   ::)   :D  ), these countries can threaten the stability of the Western World all by themselves.  And the Obama administration thinks things are okay, or better,  at home?  Not if these countries begin defaulting.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: MasterPlaster on December 20, 2009, 01:22:09 AM

Please try to understand the bigger picture. The American economy or all other nations is not going to improve.

What happens, all the bankrupt nations will have to borrow money from the world bank. I don't know where the world bank will get all that money from but, the way it goes, the borrowers will not be able to pay their debt so, they must surrender their resources to world bank so that it can recover the debt. In the case of Iceland I guess they lost all their own mineral rights. Other countries have oil, ( UAE may go that way ), water, health and education system and other public services. You can see how devious this system is. Ultimately, governments will make their own citizen the slaves of who ever own the world bank.

The stupidity of it all is non of the f**kers ask where is the world bank going to get its money from. Just like the federal reserve in US.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on December 20, 2009, 01:32:21 AM
You can see how devious this system is. Ultimately, governments will make their own citizen the slaves of who ever own the world bank.
Which also begs the question, does it not(?), do the Chinese own us and our resources?  Rumors were recently in circulation on the Internet that a Chinese army was massing on the Southwestern American border.  They may decide to claim ownership of what's "theirs".

Okay, you may be right.
But if you are, then I see no way the world economies can continue as is with these problems hanging over our heads as they are.  My continued point was: It's going to all end.  Get ready as best you can.  If you can.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: nitinnun on December 20, 2009, 03:05:12 AM



an economic collapse is inevitable.
primarily because the "leadership",
does not have enough wisdom,
to fix even basic problems.

their inability,
combined with their inability to admit that they make mistakes,
let alone fix their own mistakes,
makes an economic crash,
the only "allowed" outcome.



the current socio-economic condition is poisonous.

it is toxic to our environment,
our quality of life,
and our evolution as a species.



within a few years of the crash,
the quality of life will be several times higher,
than it is now.

because we will have a lot more free time,
a lot more freedom,
a lot more self-actualization,
a lot less stress,
and a future that WE actually choose.

and that is WITHOUT any of the supressed technologies.
WITH the supressed technologies, it will be several times better yet.



we will still have problems.
we will still want for more.

but compared to this fool-spawned nightmare,
the several times estimate, is very accurate.



Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: nitinnun on December 20, 2009, 03:23:27 AM



china is not an economic power house.
china is an economic forest fire.
that is burning itself down to the roots.



the chinese care too much about money.
they don't know how to balance working,
with quality of life.

they have a long history of strife,
drama,
and destroying themselves.

because they take materialism,
and themselves,
too seriously.



the only reason why china is a "unified" country,
is because the chinese military,
is holding the population hostage.

the only reason why their government was able to get as coherent as it is,
is because western rich people organized them.

by tempting enough chinese providence leaders with wealth,
in exchange for endless cheap manufacturing.



without western rich people to bedevil them with promises,
and without an unlimited fiat money system to bribe them,
china will quickly devolve into endless fighting over territory and resources.

which is exactly what china has been,
for all of its history.

one colony of industrious ants,
trying to wipe out a neighboring colony of industrious ants.



china isn't a great conqueror.
it is a disaster zone waiting to happen.


Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on December 20, 2009, 04:12:13 AM
@nitinnun
With respect to Replies # 297 & 298,

Interesting choice of communication.  Unique, really.

I agree with your prose poetry in the stanzas you deliver.   

I've traced my ancestry back to China through a tentative line of male ancestors from Attila the Hun. 

China is as you say.  They have a lot of evolution to negotiate in the future before they can settle down to a more civilized existence.  Their leaders are fairly simple to figure out since they usually act in predictable ways.  The Chinese peasant people aren't so bad.  They think about survival and how money can help them achieve that, but then so are many other people, even Americans.

But, I agree with you in the most part.  Their leaders will suffer like the rest of the warmongers who act like them.  It's just a matter of time.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: MasterPlaster on December 20, 2009, 01:23:17 PM

Chinese people are the same as people every where else. A mixture of good and bad. Sadly a lot of them have been moulded into submissive workers and the notion that you work hard and one day you will handout the butter comes to mind. In China, money is god like everywhere else.

By the way, the era where armies of some nation over took another nation in order to take over their land is over. The wars now are fought by economic means. I do not believe the chinese army in US story though presence of Northern Command and Nato killers there are more plausible.

As the big war approaches, you must be aware of "divide and rule" concept. Train yourself to think Chinese or Arabs or any one else is just like you. Having said that their brain washing is different to your bran washing.
There comes a time that any man truely understand what does "Love your enemy" means. (It took me 40 years).

The end of the current era is not the end of everything but the beginning of new things.

If you are still alive whilst your house is smoldering and your family and your city is destroyed, if entities (human or otherwise) turn up with promise of a wonderful life ( including free energy!) treat it with utmost suspission. Remember "order out of chaos". Who is bringing order? Do not expect miracles. We are trained to believe in a saviour and I am even suspicious of any saviour that may show up. Even if their arrival is preceeded by the Bluebeam show.

 
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on December 20, 2009, 04:16:37 PM
The end of the current era is not the end of everything but the beginning of new things.
That brings up a good point.  The Bible and the Book of Enoch both say the world will end, but others, including the Bible, say a few will be saved.

I say both can be true.

By the theory of alternative universes(string theory), this could be true.  Some alternative Earths will have no human life---germs and viruses is all---and some will.  I'm looking to try and be a survivor.  Somehow.

I'll just wait and see what happens.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Azorus on December 23, 2009, 12:33:04 PM
The president was quoted today on CNN about the high possibility of many more small banks failing in the coming year.  Also on CNN today a study was released about how large banks with congressional ties got bailouts and those that didn't where more likely to be turned down.

All of these are no surprise articles, but more for the sheepls.
Title: Double dip coming...?...as I predicted...?
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on January 06, 2010, 01:35:04 AM
This article may be replaced by a newer one in time. 
If so, the reader might GOOGLize the search arguments: "double dip" and "housing starts"

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100105/ap_on_bi_go_ec_fi/us_economy

I did say in the past that recessions often have 'double' dip' falling indicators in their courses.  The next one may be occurring now.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Azorus on January 07, 2010, 03:35:50 PM
More about the coming double dip.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/07/business/07fed.html?ref=business

http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1952132,00.html?xid=rss-topstories-cnnpartner

While I would like to point out that the American economy is on the up turn, it still has a long way to go, and throwing all of the money at the problem that the government did was not the solution and made the longterm solution all that much more difficult.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on January 07, 2010, 07:40:09 PM
While I would like to point out that the American economy is on the up turn, it still has a long way to go,
Yes, precisely.  I said some were looking at the bubble created by Obama, and then saying that's the answer---the economy is improving.  "Not seeing the forest for the trees in the way."
Several economic problems will get worse---even much worse---in the future, as set forth elsewhere in this thread.
Quote
...and throwing all of the money at the problem that the government did was not the solution and made the longterm solution all that much more difficult.
Absolutely.  They didn't fix the root problem(s)---unregulated financial dealings---and this will return to haunt the Obama Administration.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Azorus on January 07, 2010, 07:54:30 PM
One thing I want to mention that I think a lot of people have forgoten about is where is that TARP money?  You might notice in recent weeks that the TARP money that the banks gave back had a profit to it, about 50billion dollars.  So where did it go, you cannot track the TARP money that was a profit, you can only track the original amount of TARP money.  Hats off to our government for making another 50billion dissappear quitely.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on January 07, 2010, 09:49:41 PM
One thing I want to mention that I think a lot of people have forgoten about is where is that A money?  ...you cannot track the A money that was a profit, you can only track the original amount of TARP money.
Good point, Azorus.  Also, too, the money was spent on things that weren't in the original 'plan'.  And, main street business wasn't helped hardly at all.
Quote
  Hats off to our government for making another 50billion dissappear quitely.
Yeah, true.  I saw on a special news report on TV once that the Gov't shipped a $Billion on several pallets(skids) to SW Asia and it all disappeared!, conveniently.  The money just disappeared---somewhere! in Iraq.  They wanted, I believe, possibly, to use the money to rebuild bombed cities.  This is about the same thing that happened to the $50 billion.
One or more congressional hearings were held, but nothing came out of them.

--Lee
Title: Re: Double dip coming...?...as I predicted...?
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on January 08, 2010, 09:25:22 PM
This article may be replaced by a newer one in time. 
If so, the reader might GOOGLize the search arguments: "double dip" and "housing starts"
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100105/ap_on_bi_go_ec_fi/us_economy
I did say in the past that recessions often have 'double' dip' falling indicators in their courses.  The next one may be occurring now.
--Lee
Here's an additional reason:
Most households with residences 'under water' financially didn't, or haven't, refinanced their properties.  About 5 million more will have their subprime and alt-A mortgages reset to unacceptably high interest rates in 1 1/2 to 2 years at the latest.  This is very serious!
5 million households and the unemployed as well(combined in numbers) will cause huge social/financial/legal stresses on the economy.

This is more than merely *very bad*.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Azorus on January 11, 2010, 03:12:02 PM
For anyone else that is tracking bank closers, 140 last year with a start of 10 this year already.  by the way 140 are the most banks closed in a single year since 1994.  And if anyone else is conserned with the amount of money in the FDIC they will keep telling you that they still have access to 500billion treasury money, that being said they have already spent 584billion on bank closings last year.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on January 12, 2010, 09:11:43 PM
For anyone else that is tracking bank closers, 140 last year with a start of 10 this year already.  by the way 140 are the most banks closed in a single year since 1994.  And if anyone else is conserned with the amount of money in the FDIC they will keep telling you that they still have access to 500billion treasury money, that being said they have already spent 584billion on bank closings last year.
They also warned they don't have enough.  They'll need to be bailed out if this trend continues.  People may quit trusting the whole banking system.  Bad scenario.

--Lee
Title: Re: Double dip coming...?...as I predicted...?
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on January 12, 2010, 09:18:48 PM
5 million households and the unemployed as well(combined in numbers) will cause huge social/financial/legal stresses on the economy.
And, there another fact that was seen by an analyst on TV recently:
Banks aren't reducing the worth of distressed properties because they want to keep the price high for their good bottom line.

Obama may force them to change, and write off some of the cost, but banks will loose money no matter what happens.

There doesn't seem to be a good way out of this.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Azorus on January 13, 2010, 02:36:24 PM
The problem with that is if banks devalue the property to much it makes their bank fail.  According to the FDIC banks have to keep a certain amount of assets capable of covering at most of there depositors.  This means a bank can have unlimited psychical assets as long as they have enough money to cover 75% of there depositors at any one time.  So if you devalue housing to much it is possible to drop total asset values of large banks below the amount of money depositors have in them.  This is what they fear because that means they are running without money and Technically the FDIC has to come and and close them down.  Though because the FDIC is already in trouble they have been hesitant to close on some banks that are already under.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on January 14, 2010, 01:22:20 AM
Azorus said:
Quote
The problem with that is if banks devalue the property to much it makes their bank fail. ... This is what they fear because that means they are running without money and Technically the FDIC has to come and and close them down.  ... 
Yes, I agree.
There's something also:  Banks are reluctant to lend money to anyone they think won't be able to pay them back in the future(about everyone, really).

The banks get hurt financially "coming and going".  They can see many borrowers as credit risks and also their assets aren't worth enough to sustain them in the long run.

I imagine Europe and Asia are in the same boat.  And, the boat is getting smaller and may spring a leak, as well.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Azorus on January 14, 2010, 12:39:58 PM
I thing i heard a while ago was that banks, according to federal law, have to lend money.  it makes sense, but they have to lend money to a certain amount of people no matter what according to the law, will have to look it up later.  And if banks don't lend money to these people they have to pay penaties for this, making it hurt worse during this economic meltdown.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Azorus on January 14, 2010, 03:11:50 PM
For those of you familiar with it, welcome The Fair Housing Act.

http://www.hud.gov/offices/fheo/FHLaws/yourrights.cfm

Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: silverfish on January 14, 2010, 07:45:33 PM
They also warned they don't have enough.  They'll need to be bailed out if this trend continues.  People may quit trusting the whole banking system.  Bad scenario.

--Lee

And they don't trust them already? 27 trillion of taxpayer's money down a black hole, and the banks need another bailout?? when we are not told where this money is going, because it will undermine National Security? our children will be paying for this. Their children will be paying for this.
       A thug breaks into your house, takes all your money. He holds a gun to your head, threatens all the members of your household, helps himself to everything in your property, rapes your daughter, seizes your hard-earned savings and takes control. If you do not submit, he will shoot your family members one by one. This is the kind of situation we are facing. The TARP bailouts will not benefit the economy. They benefit the very institutions that caused the problem in the first place.
        If we do not submit to this plunder, then 'martial law' 'economic collapse', 'terror' (mainly false flag) is what we have been threatened with, and that is what we can certainly expect, unless we pull our heads out of the sand, stop trusting corrupt puppet politicians, and address the situation individually and collectively.
       
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on January 14, 2010, 07:49:46 PM
For those of you familiar with it, welcome The Fair Housing Act.
http://www.hud.gov/offices/fheo/FHLaws/yourrights.cfm
From what I read, if you're over 55(I am), and you have a family(maybe in the future(?)), you're out of luck renting a place to live because the Govt exempted those landlords from that provision.
Is that accurate, Azorus?

--Lee

Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on January 14, 2010, 08:01:48 PM
@silverfish, with respect to your Reply #316:

I don't have a lot of time on this borrowed computer, but I agree with practically everything you said.  Well said!

But your last sentence suggested that ordinary people stand up and demand accountability from corrupt politicians(that was the gist)?

Americans often can't agree on a great deal, anyway.  Too many ethnic groups, cultures and different religions, for starters.
Like Israel:  If it weren't for the Arab Muslim presence on their borders, they would be at each other's throats.  I heard a Rabbi say that and I'm Jewish.  He's right; I know what the people are like.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Azorus on January 14, 2010, 08:34:49 PM
That is accurate, however that is not where it ends.  The Fair housing act is meant that no one can; Section 109 prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, color, national origin,  or religion in programs and activities receiving financial assistance from HUD's Community Development and Block Grant Program.  This means that anyone is able to own a house.  I choose the word able careful.  In accordance with this program banks set up special departments to get people into house rather than to rent because it was in the banks intrest to have people take more loans out.  This worked against the banks in the end when unemployment/underemployment rose, because they had give so many sub prime loans out to people that just could not afford it.  You know the rest of the story.  In the end it is part banker fualt and part government fualt.  Having said that right now who is suffering from it?
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: ATT on January 16, 2010, 06:02:31 PM
Lee, ran across this today, apparently we're not the only ones who had this figured out some time ago (remember what we both said way back in this thread?):

http://seekingalpha.com/article/182072-here-comes-the-double-dip-recession

Tony
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: silverfish on January 16, 2010, 07:12:51 PM
@silverfish, with respect to your Reply #316:

I don't have a lot of time on this borrowed computer, but I agree with practically everything you said.  Well said!

But your last sentence suggested that ordinary people stand up and demand accountability from corrupt politicians(that was the gist)?

Americans often can't agree on a great deal, anyway.  Too many ethnic groups, cultures and different religions, for starters.
Like Israel:  If it weren't for the Arab Muslim presence on their borders, they would be at each other's throats.  I heard a Rabbi say that and I'm Jewish.  He's right; I know what the people are like.

--Lee

Point taken, thanks for replying. What I am trying to say is that we have been artificially divided and ruled through belief, race, colour, religion, caste, political parties, doesn't matter what. We see everything in terms of what separates us and think of ourselves as isolated entities. So when someone is oppressed by the system and has their freedom taken away, we say, that's tough, but it doesn't affect me.
        The problem is that this person's loss is everyone's loss. Right now legislation is actually being discussed to ban free speech on the internet, to infiltrate groups that the government decides are promoting 'conspiracy theories' and use provocateur methods to get them fighting with each other. Loosely defined 'conspiracy theory' means anyone who disagrees with the government and its pronouncements. Suggestions are being made to tax or fine 'conspiracy theorists', whatever that loosely applied term means.
         If you've read Orwell, then you'll remember the concept of 'thought crime'. We'll, we're there already! Freedom and independance of thought are both under direct assault. This is something that affects every one of us, not just a minority.
         Together, we can beat this, divided, we fall...  the idea of a threat is often used to unite people against an enemy, usually a false threat, and a false enemy. Does that make sense? If you are the kind of person that researches and really tries to find out what is happening in the world, the real danger becomes painfully obvious soon enough.
         Ask yourself, if you DON'T demand accountability from those supposedly assigned to protect you, what is the alternative? ZERO accountability. It means they can say and do what they like, and you are considered fair game.
        According to the insane legislation now being proposed, half the people on this forum could be arrested for having 'dissenting views'. This is a fact, and if you doubt it, I suggest you study Cass Sunstein's pronouncements -

http://www.prisonplanet.com/obamas-favorite-for-supreme-court-justice-sunstein-wants-to-ban-guns-free-speech.html
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on January 16, 2010, 07:47:24 PM
ATT said:
Quote
Lee, ran across this today, apparently we're not the only ones who had this figured out some time ago (remember what we both said way back in this thread?):
http://seekingalpha.com/article/182072-here-comes-the-double-dip-recession
Tony
Tony,
Excellent article.  We did say the 'double dip' was coming, and we'll prove in in due course.

That disaster in Haiti is adding to the Western Hemispheric monetary problem(s).  Money going down a hole.  I sure can't afford to contribute to disaster relief; who can in a recession like this one?

As an aside:
More and more big earthquakes are occurring lately.  Is this something in the way of a future general trend?  Do New Age pundits(I think) predict this in their prophecy?  I remember awhile ago, they did, but it was years ago.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: ATT on January 16, 2010, 08:35:56 PM
More and more big earthquakes are occurring lately...Do New Age pundits(I think) predict this in their prophecy?

Probably, there's been enough prognostication thrown around over the years to pretty much cover all the bases.

Along the lines of subliminal 'global consciousness', maybe the Princeton Egg has generated some new data that correlates with current events, haven't been over there for a couple of years now:
 
http://noosphere.princeton.edu/

I'll have to have a look at earthquake stats, too, now that you mention it:

http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/eqarchives/year/eqstats.php

EDIT:

Here's another quake link that might be more informational:

http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/recenteqsww/Quakes/quakes_all.html



Tony
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on January 17, 2010, 11:46:50 PM
@silverfish

Your previous posting did have a great deal of truth to it.

There are most likely Rightist factions in the Gov't that would like to squash free speech entirely.
However, these people are WAY outnumbered by gun-toting Americans who won't give up said guns willingly(I'm not one of them.  My medical past disallows my owning a gun.)

When the economy cpllapses, there may be a showdown.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Azorus on January 19, 2010, 05:35:03 PM
I loved the article http://seekingalpha.com/article/182072-here-comes-the-double-dip-recession
Where some of his numbers are a bit on the extreme, he does outline one thing that is very true that a lot have missed.  If your job losses continue to rise, and job creation is lowering it is impossible to have a lower unemployment rate ie November 2009.  And as his article also points out we will continue to see unemployment increase through most of 2010, because of no stimulus jobs.  Most people will notice that stimulus money has been given to large corporations to create or save jobs, which in November the government no longer made it a requirement for them to track which jobs they made, or saved and to lump it into one number, thus making the number worthless.  Of the 2 trillion dollars that where to be spent on infustruture projects, where is it?
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on January 19, 2010, 07:29:26 PM
Azorus said:
Quote
I loved the article http://seekingalpha.com/article/182072-here-comes-the-double-dip-recession ... Of the 2 trillion dollars that where to be spent on infustruture projects, where is it?
@Azorus
It isn't merely $2 trillion.  More like $4 trillion.  A conservative American cable TV commentator remarked, using a blackboard, that AIG insurance, the auto industry,  banks, and other were bailed out by the Gov't.

They borrowed the money because there isn't that much available in the economy.  They'll probably need to borrow the money for interest payments, which will compound the problem.

This isn't any answer to the *problem*.
Even California's economy, where I live, has been described as not only a train wreck, but a high speed bullet train wreck about to happen.

It's only a matter of time, as I said before.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Azorus on January 19, 2010, 08:26:24 PM
I was only going after the 2 trillion the article hinted at as disappearing, but agreed that it would be more like 4 trillion that would have disappeared in total, if you don't count stupid superbowl ads.  And they will prolly spend it on interest payments to forien criditors, which in turn will make the global economy fall again with the us, when we can not make the next payment of intrest.  All and all a bad situation.  Check out what Maine did today to try and balance there budget, it's on cnn, under us tab.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on January 19, 2010, 10:09:16 PM
And they will prolly spend it on A to forien criditors, which in turn will make the global economy fall again with the us, when we can not make the next payment of intrest.  All and all a bad situation. 
I absolutely agree, Azorus.  "The end is nigh", as it was once said.  I noticed on your Overunity stats that you're a European?  Are things as bad in Europe as they are here in the States?
Quote
Check out what Maine did today to try and balance there budget, it's on cnn, under us tab.
I'll look at it.
Reedit:
The article was gone on CNN.  However the periodical papers, NY Times and the Bangor Daily News indicated in articles that steep budget cuts were possible.  Was that what you were referring to?

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Azorus on January 20, 2010, 02:27:43 PM
The article I was refering to was one that involed the governers grand plan to save the states budget for 2011 was to cut half the state jobs, ie schools, traffic repair/control.  in order to cut the States defacet in half.

And no things are not as bad in europe.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on January 20, 2010, 07:35:26 PM
...the governers grand plan to save the states budget for 2011 was to cut half the state jobs, ie schools, traffic repair/control.  in order to cut the States defacet in half.
I think the State of Maine may not be able to function adequately if they did that.
But, I'm surprised Gov. Swartznegger in California hasn't done that yet.  It might be coming, though. 
Quote
And no things are not as bad in europe.
Well, fortunately, America is bordered by two oceans and the Gulf of Mexico.  Muslims can't sneak up on us that way.  Mexico and Canada are another problem.

If the War on Terror goes badly (likely, in the long term), there's nothing to stop the Muslims from imitating Genghis Khan and approaching Eastern Europe like Genghis did, but with a more modern, larger army this time.

The Americans and NATO can't win militarily.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Azorus on January 20, 2010, 08:39:59 PM
Muslim's are not the problem.  Not sure who refered to it but we are seeing the similarity here as in the Roman empire.  People have forgotten the value of real things, like real food, not processed crap that kills you.  While I agree that science is great some of it is bad too.  What happened to the idea of getting the freshist vegetables to the table?  Instead it has turned to getting the chemically indueced fresh vegetables to the table.  There is a real problem here.  It falls way back to values.  If you don't value what you eat, breath, or do for work you will become a lacky that can be written off, which is what has happened because corporations see that most people are stupid brainless morons that will do what they are told to by the idiot box.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on January 21, 2010, 10:33:14 PM
Muslim's are not the problem.
You're right.  Moderate Muslims aren't a problem.  Some of their leaders are radical, Fascist/Rightist agitators, who whose founding leaders were originally recruited by Hitler to destabilize SW Asia in WWII.  Some of them are/were sociopaths, then and now.
Quote
  Not sure who refered to it but we are seeing the similarity here as in the Roman empire.  People have forgotten the value of real things, like real food, not processed crap that kills you.
Exactly. I agree.
Quote
While I agree that science is great some of it is bad too. 
Building deadly weapons is bad, I agree, if that's part of your point.
Quote
What happened to the idea of getting the freshist vegetables to the table?  Instead it has turned to getting the chemically indueced fresh vegetables to the table.  There is a real problem here.
Yeah, greed and the money people desire are the reason.  More profits are the source of poor food we eat.
Quote
It falls way back to values.  If you don't value what you eat, breath, or do for work you will become a lacky that can be written off, which is what has happened because corporations see that most people are stupid brainless morons that will do what they are told to by the idiot box.
I regret to say it, but too many people were made that way by an American education system that the politicians wanted, and the people put up with.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Azorus on January 22, 2010, 02:06:23 PM
I am not saying by any means that the education system has failed in the US. but lets face it, we are losing the battle.  The war is not over until all signs of intelegence are wiped out of the US and that is not gonna happen in my lifetime.  Parents need to stand up and being one, need to get there kids into learning, anything!  What kind of country have we come to when the majority of our nations education level is that of a 10th grader.  for god sakes people educate yourselves, the internet is there for that.  If you don't take advantage of it now it will go away, just look at public libraries.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Azorus on January 25, 2010, 06:18:46 PM
"the banks getting closed go up and up.. up and up.. up and up"

17 so far this year with more to come.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on January 25, 2010, 07:46:12 PM
"the banks getting closed go up and up.. up and up.. up and up"
17 so far this year with more to come.
Very good, Azorus.
Here's a good reason, that may be a reiteration of an earlier post:

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2009/1116/opinions-great-depression-economy-on-my-mind.html

He's right.  Printing more and more money does no good.  And recently, the housing initiative for first-time buyers is winding down, thus causing a steep drop in home bought---16+ % drop instead of the predicted 11% drop.

The 'double dip' may be starting.
 
--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Azorus on January 25, 2010, 08:14:24 PM
I like the fact that earlier today the fed warned big banks that the interest rates are likely to rise soon, without notice!  wait wouldn't that be a notice?
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 25, 2010, 08:20:02 PM
i don't understand the concern... are you all incapable of hunting your own meat, growing your own produce and building your own shelter? if you are incapable of the above, i suggest you aren't as smart as you would like to think nor very well educated in the things that really matter...


the poll doesn't have my choice which would be: i don't care if the american economy improves.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: silverfish on January 25, 2010, 10:50:00 PM
Very good, Azorus.
Here's a good reason, that may be a reiteration of an earlier post:

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2009/1116/opinions-great-depression-economy-on-my-mind.html

He's right.  Printing more and more money does no good.  And recently, the housing initiative for first-time buyers is winding down, thus causing a steep drop in home bought---16+ % drop instead of the predicted 11% drop.

The 'double dip' may be starting.
 
--Lee

The families that own the banks don't care if the small fish go down. Why should they, when they own the small fish? when the agenda is to amalgemate and centralise power into a global banking system?
Forget about 'green shoots' - recovery is not part of the plan, never has been.
      If you think these bailouts are to protect the economy, you are missing the point. The plan was to crash the economy from the start by withdrawing money from circulation, stopping banks from lending, burst the housing/derivatives bubbles they created - which, by the way, we haven't seen the last of yet - create new 'green' bubbles with the carbon credit scam - just look at Al Gore, Pachauri and JP Morgan's business dealings and you get the idea - lend poor countries money created out of thin air ostensibly to deal with their fictional 'carbon problem' and when they default on the loans, penalise them by monopolising their industrial infrastructure, or disallowing it under draconian new eco-regulations.
       The IMF has been busy with this piracy for years. With a global centralised 'green' bureacracy to 'save the planet' the parasitic process will be 100 times more efficient - and our gullibility, lack of critical thinking and inability to collectively take action will enslave us.
       We will see the economy degrade. When a full collapse occurs, in tandem with other engineered events, the 'saviours' will step forth - with their 'solution'
       Believe me, you don't want to be part of that solution.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on January 26, 2010, 01:42:11 AM
I like the fact that earlier today the fed warned big banks that the interest rates are likely to rise soon, without notice!  wait wouldn't that be a notice?
Well, if they didn't say why, someone should ask!  The Fed could risk irreparable damage to their economic 'face' if the said economy deteriorated without them noticing it, and then raise rates rates in a hurry to compensate.
(I'm being facetious and sarcastic at the same time.  Did you see that, anyone?)

Also, have a look at this:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100123/ap_on_bi_ge/us_obama_s_economy
NOTE:
This article may be replaced by fresher news in the future.  If so, GOOGLEize  "obama faces perilous choice" and see if it was archived on a database.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Azorus on January 28, 2010, 04:46:16 PM
I really don't know if it is much of a surprise anymore but the economy is still a slump.  CNN reported earlier that the housing market, while better in larger cities, is still falling with fourclosures up for January.  There has been no really move in the unemployment market, with early reporting figures in still at around 10% unemployment, but trends on highering are up, just not much.  The state of the union address over with big stresses on jobs, we will see where the first quarter of 2010 takes us, either up or down.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on January 28, 2010, 08:59:39 PM
I really don't know if it is much of a surprise anymore but the economy is still a slump.  CNN reported earlier that the housing market, while better in larger cities, is still falling with fourclosures up for January. ...
You're right, Azorus.  The housing stimulus for new homeowners is winding down, and as a result, sales of existing homes has fallen for two straight months.  Not a good sign, to say the least.
Quote
... There has been no really move in the unemployment market, with early reporting figures in still at around 10% unemployment, but trends on highering are up, just not much. ...
Correct again.  I saw that on the TV news.  Times will be rough for a long period.  No end in sight, really.
Quote
... The state of the union address over with big stresses on jobs, we will see where the first quarter of 2010 takes us, either up or down.
Obama could have done that earlier, instead of concentrating on health care.  Whether he did or not probably won't make much difference.  It's going to get really bad everywhere, eventually.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: 4Tesla on January 29, 2010, 07:43:33 AM
Hi all,

Here is an good article I found:

An Analysis of the IMF's World Economic Outlook for 2010
http://seekingalpha.com/article/184723-an-analysis-of-the-imf-s-world-economic-outlook-for-2010

4Tesla
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on January 29, 2010, 07:33:07 PM
Hi all,
Here is an good article I found:
An Analysis of the IMF's World Economic Outlook for 2010
http://seekingalpha.com/article/184723-an-analysis-of-the-imf-s-world-economic-outlook-for-2010
4Tesla
@4Tesla
Good article.  Things haven't changed, though.  Monetary problems haven't been addressed.  The bubble Obama re-inflated will burst like the first one.

The article didn't say that, though.

--Lee


Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on February 04, 2010, 02:10:31 AM
@4Tesla
Good article.  Things haven't changed, though.  Monetary problems haven't been addressed.  The bubble Obama re-inflated will burst like the first one.
The article didn't say that, though.
--Lee
There's more information available:

Has everyone heard of Glenn Beck, the conservative cable TV economist/commentator?
On 2 Feb., this year, he alluded to why the economy hasn't been fixed by Obama and Congress:

1) The American debt/asset worth ratio in 1929 was 16%.  Now it's a lot worse at 96%, and a lot of that debt is owed to China.

2) Unsecured debt(credit cards, etc,) is something like $10-15 trillion.  For SSI and SSDI, it's $107 trillion.  Not including medical expense/debt.  Trillions more on top of that.  This wasn't nearly as big a problem in 1929.  Beck said this was too big to be paid off by anyone.  Impossible.

3) In 1929, people mostly owned their residential houses and were capable of growing a garden; not today.  My mom's mother was a lot more self-reliant then than most people are now.  She had a small farm and grew a garden.  People today depend on store-bought food.
I admit, I do, too.  I realize I'm in the same boat as most people, but I'll have to deal with that like everyone else, too.

All this adds up, even if I'm reading from hastily written notes.  Another set of 'nails in the coffin', so to speak.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Azorus on February 04, 2010, 06:54:22 AM
There was an article yesterday in the NYT stating that they US has hit a cross roads.  We have two choices either we devalue the dollar to the point where no nation will buy our dept, and we can sell products again to creat an American industry sector again Or we keep creating more Dollars in hopes that inflation will stem off to the point where we can keep our way of life in false hopes.

Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on February 04, 2010, 09:44:30 PM
There was an article yesterday in the NYT stating that they US has hit a cross roads.  We have two choices either we devalue the dollar to the point where no nation will buy our dept, and we can sell products again to creat an American industry sector again...
This is a mixed proposition.  No nation will buy our debt, but our domestic products will be so cheap it might restart the economy.  Other countries have done the same thing.  Our debt is so severe, however, our creditor countries would be really! unhappy if we devalued the dollar.
I see no good way out of this.  We're way too far behind and deep in debt.
Quote
...Or we keep creating more Dollars in hopes that inflation will stem off to the point where we can keep our way of life in false hopes.
Inflation, as a cure, can cause a depression, which make the cure as bad as the disease which started the Great Recession.

It's a "d@mned if you do and d@mned if you don't" scenario.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Azorus on February 05, 2010, 07:21:04 AM
I think that was the point of the whole article, we are screwed either way.  a few more articles are out today for all you fark.com is a great place to see them.  the new articles go on to explain why we are damned pretty much.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on February 13, 2010, 02:56:35 AM
I think that was the point of the whole article, we are screwed either way.  a few more articles are out today for all you fark.com is a great place to see them.  the new articles go on to explain why we are damned pretty much.
I agree.  Here's another:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100212/ap_on_bi_st_ma_re/us_wall_street

China is rattling the nerves of financial markets worldwide with uncertainty of the final outcome with respect to the article above.  (The article may or may not be replaced by fresher news at a later date without being archived.)
What is certain is that Portugal, Spain, Ireland and Greece are hurting for more money in a big way.  This is also not helping calming people's anxiety toward the future of money markets.  Even if the American money bubble was re-inflated by Obama, the future is less than rosy for a number or reasons, IMHO.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Azorus on February 25, 2010, 09:53:10 PM
Best failed list ever!  With more than 450 banks added to the troubled banking list this year promises to be a fun one.  And the new addition to banking problems, the Credit Act!  Yes that is right the Credit Act promises to make more banks fail because they can no longer turn to the easy income of jacking up credit card intrest rates on unsuspecting slobs.  Good Luck to all this fine year of 2010!

http://www.fdic.gov/bank/individual/failed/banklist.html
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on February 26, 2010, 02:23:22 AM
Best failed list ever!  With more than 450 banks added to the troubled banking list this year promises to be a fun one.  And the new addition to banking problems, the Credit Act!  Yes that is right the Credit Act promises to make more banks fail because they can no longer turn to the easy income of jacking up credit card intrest rates on unsuspecting slobs.  Good Luck to all this fine year of 2010!

http://www.fdic.gov/bank/individual/failed/banklist.html
I agree wholeheartedly.  There's something else:

Have you see what's happening in Greece?  Social unrest with violent riots in the streets.  If France or Germany doesn't come to their aid financially, "there'll be hell to pay", as it were.  And then there's Portugal, Ireland and Spain waiting in line with additional requests for help.  Glenn Beck, the conservative American TV commentator, says Europe is a 'powderkeg', and I know what he means.

Have a look at this:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100225/ap_on_bi_ge/eu_europe_age_of_austerity
NOTE:
This article may be replaced with fresher news, unless it's archived on some particular server database. 
If so, GOOGLize:  "european union pushes cuts indebted countries".
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on March 08, 2010, 07:59:31 PM
There was an article yesterday in the NYT stating that they US has hit a cross roads. ... 
According to this,

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2009/07/23/the_china_bubbles_coming_but_not_the_one_you_think

China also has a decision to make at a sort of crossroads:

Continue to buy Treasuries with dollars, and, at the same time, continue to inflate an ever-growing bubble;
or,
"see the light" and try to cushion The Economic Fall buy getting away from dollars as an investment currency or debt payment from the USA.


"Another nail in the coffin."  There are a growing number already tightening the lid.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on March 11, 2010, 01:12:31 AM
I think that was the point of the whole article, we are screwed either way.  a few more articles are out today for all you fark.com is a great place to see them.  the new articles go on to explain why we are damned pretty much.
Azorus, and others who say that, are right:

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread550491/pg1

(There are other sites which expound upon the same thing, but they're more explicit in their language.)  GOOGLize, "confirmed march 24 2010 doomsday"  for other blog entries.

The general consensus in Britain, some say, is that there is no effective 'recovery' and people there as well as elsewhere(read: the States) are really getting fed up with the professional politicians.
So what's new?
If they get scared enough about the future, they may think they have little or nothing to live for.  Mob mentality can be dangerously unpredictable.

We'll all just have to wait until the 24th to be sure.



RECENT REEDIT:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100310/ap_on_bi_ge/eu_britain_financial_crisis

Britain is looking more like Greece lately.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on March 12, 2010, 01:24:09 AM
Lee said:
Quote
Britain is looking more like Greece lately.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1109/29330.html

China does indeed have a bubble.  But, other analysts maintain that the Chinese economy isn't as dependent on housing sales like the American economy was.  Chinese officials are moving to curb price growth in the real estate market now.  Whether or not that's successful remains to be seen.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on March 12, 2010, 02:12:19 AM
the_big_m_in_ok said:
Quote
Britain is looking more like Greece lately.
...And America is going down the same path as Greece.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_power_and_debt_analysis

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: sparks on March 12, 2010, 02:35:45 AM
   Who do governments borrow money from?  They borrow it from people who do nothing but gamble for a living.  They dont produce anything transport anything provide any type of service.  They call it passive income for a reason.  You get income from being passive.  Passive means to do nothing.  Governments issue things like bonds and then pay off the bonds with interest when they mature.  The bond holders make profit doing nothing.  So people who are doing something have to give people who are doing nothing money.  The answer to the global financial crisis is to welch on all the debt.  From some poor soul working 12hours a day to stay alive to governments paying off notes and bonds.  Fuck all of em.  Wealth in an illusion.  Take the typical realestate closing.  They charge you a down payment all sorts of fees and shit called closing costs just so you can sign a piece of paper that says they can fuck you for the next 30years monthly.  They never did anything but fuck you and you have to pay for the privelege to get fucked.  Prostitution is illegal but financial  and extortion are backedup by the law.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on March 12, 2010, 03:01:43 AM
@sparks
With respect to your Reply #355,

I believe, what you're referring to in mentioning 'passive income', is financial usury.  This is greed, plain and simple.  Usury and the greed which starts is in the first place have their own punishment as a reward.  In a phrase:  Economic depression.  That's over and over again.  People never learn, do they?

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: tanu on March 12, 2010, 08:39:30 AM
Its an very informative thanx to share ths!


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Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Azorus on March 12, 2010, 03:36:08 PM
tech,

   Most governments borrow money from financial institutes.  These financial firms get there money from savings, or deposits the banks has at the time.  Each bank is given a set limit of how much of these deposits they must have on hand at all times in order to provide there customers with cash they need, the rest of the money the bank can use to lend out.  Pay attention cause this is what gets banks in trouble.  banks can invest this money anyway they choose, either through government securities or riskier gambles like hedge funds or commercial/ private loans.  Now to finish your question government securities or for the US treasure bills, can be bought and sold by banks to earn money through the "loan" loan of real money to the government.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on March 12, 2010, 03:41:37 PM
to big m and everyone concerned,I heard Jim Rawles speak last night on the coming crisis.He has a very good survival blog with thousands of free articles.I spent this morning on learning which types of food and how much to store away for one person per year.Its less than you thought.http://survivalblog.com/  Check it out for yourself.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on March 12, 2010, 03:45:17 PM
I forgot to say I heard him on coasttocoastam radio last night.www.coasttocoastam.com   its a good forum for the fringe I guess you would say.I am fringe too however.I find life more intersting that way.Triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on March 12, 2010, 03:48:32 PM
30lbs of brown rice,10lbs iodized salt,220lbs whole wheat grain,50lbs whole corn,20lbs whole oats,96 lbs oils and fats,canned fruit vegetables and meat build up a two year supplythat you can rotate ,sugars of all kinds 50 lbs per person.http://survivalblog.com/
                                                                                         per person/per year
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on March 12, 2010, 03:51:48 PM
ground flour lasts 2 or three years,ground corn lasts 18-36 months.keep your olive oil frozen or it goes rancid on you.Lots of good tips.http://survivalblog.com/  He says to start you need to buy 2 to 3 times your normal amount and store the surplus.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on March 12, 2010, 04:02:21 PM
I hope we don't have to go back to carrying guns like we did in the old west.But when chinese manufacturing workers make 81 cents an hour compared to $29 something an hour in the west.Its no wonder China is winning big this time around.80% of Obamas 2 billion dollars for green energy went to make jobs for the chinese.The chinese are getting orders for the wind turbines from the USA instead of making them at home here in the USA.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on March 12, 2010, 04:05:38 PM
The chinese make and sell about ten timesmore photo cell panels than what the USA does.The big wind farms here in  west texas are buying their wind turbines from china.
triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on March 12, 2010, 04:08:32 PM
The chinese are winning big in "the green revolution".Workers in the USA might get to maintain the wind farms but they don't get to make them.Triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: sparks on March 13, 2010, 12:09:29 AM
Chineese are winning at what?  Is their population going to be more healthy happier or wiser.  I seriously doubt it.  They are just the newest nation of slaves to be exploited.  They are going to chase the golden ring that the master is going to sew into their nose.  A subsistance farmer has to work maybe 5hours on average a day.  How many hours a day are the chineese slaves working in the industrial sweatshops.  How much increase in lung cancer from smelting operations running with zero enviromental discharge restraints will the chineese experience.  Who will feed the workers as rice paddies are mowed under for urban sprawl.  In florida where I now live there use to be orange groves for miles on end.  There was a tower which was maybe 50 or 60 feet tall.  (This is real tall for florida because it is basically flat)  From up there back in the 70's the only thing one could see was orange groves and one highway snaking through it in all directions.  Now it is just asphalt.  Some on the ground and some on the roofs.  I am not one to stand in the way of progress as long as you know where are heading.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on March 13, 2010, 01:12:43 AM
The chinese are winning big in "the green revolution".Workers in the USA might get to maintain the wind farms but they don't get to make them.Triffid
I think Chinese products are suspected, by me and others, of being shoddy in quality.  American firms will get what they pay for.  Only diligence on the part of U.S. regulatory agencies in charge of compliance inspection to adequate safety standards will begin to assure that these foreign products are safe to use.

Up to a point.

Anyone can be forced by political pressure to 'look the other way' or be bought off with a bribe.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Cloxxki on March 13, 2010, 01:55:36 PM
Made in USA and Made in CHina are not what they were 20 years ago. Cars made in USA are already at the bottom end of the quality range globally.
I see the whole picture flipping before we've completed another 20 years. China will be hiring USA workers to do their dirty work. Manufacturing clothes, growing food, and easier medium to easy assembly. The US$ is now artificially being kept high, by huge loans against low interests. Tis will not last forever, and the inherent value of the currency will sink when the loans stop to keep it afloat. The loans now support the dollar going in as well as out. CHina has done everything over the past year to keep their Yuan low enough for the US to keep buying their goods. When the US loses buying power, and China can focus on other markets, the dollar is in trouble.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: sparks on March 13, 2010, 03:13:43 PM
    Assembled in the USA stamped on everything.  This would make the unemployment in China rise as their factory workers are laid off.  The idle workers will have to seek other forms of employment which ususally entails illegal activities.
An elite class will evolve in China who will control who and when people get paid.  The trickle down process will be initiated and those not getting wet will resort to crime in order to survive.  The rise to the top is not paved with gold.  It is paved with broken lives.  Welcome to the military industrial complex China.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on March 13, 2010, 10:04:23 PM
...An elite class will evolve in China who will control who and when people get paid.  The trickle down process will be initiated and those not getting wet will resort to crime in order to survive. ...
There are already Tongs in China.  The Mexicans have the drug cartels, along with the Colombians.  The Italians have the Mob and organized crime extensions in the States.  The Russians have the Blatnoi(Russian Mafia). 
We have politicans.  Anything new, here?  No.
This type of living always catches up whoever thinks they can get away with it.  Stupid, really.
Quote
... The rise to the top is not paved with gold.  It is paved with broken lives. 
There is no long lasting 'top'.  Hitler should have finally realized that.  The same will happen with China and North Korea.  It's only a matter of time.
Quote
Welcome to the military industrial complex China.
I don't think the Chinese are smart enough, on their own, to compete with us.  They need to steal what they want.  The Russians, too.  However, I believe, American politicans are responsible for some of the deleterious decisions made to not stop some of the advanced technology transfer to outside interests that don't have our well-being at heart.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on March 15, 2010, 01:41:11 AM
http://www.allpestco.com/2009/06/homemade-raccoon-traps/  How to put meat on your table when the stores have closed down and the food trucks are no longer running.The barrel trap(#2) sounds good to me.Triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on March 15, 2010, 01:58:52 AM
http://www.wild-about-trapping.com/tips/tips_020_homemade_swivels.htm
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on March 15, 2010, 02:04:37 AM
http://www.snare-trap-survive.com/Buckshots-Survival-Snaring-Advanced-Snaring-DVDs-S.htm  More help at putting meat on your table.Triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on March 15, 2010, 02:12:33 AM
http://www.survival-homestead.com/how-to-make-a-trap.html    How to make a simple trap.This is the one I was looking for.Triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: X00013 on March 16, 2010, 01:08:26 AM
How close are you to feeding yourself. Kill your power. Lose your money. Now provide.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on March 16, 2010, 04:02:51 AM
How close are you to feeding yourself. Kill your power. Lose your money. Now provide.
@triffid
With respect to Replies 371, 372 & 373:
Sounds like a good idea.  I was a Boy Scout as a teenager, but I didn't take the program seriously at that time.  I realize my mistake now.

@X00013
I'm lucky enough to live at the edge of the Northern California wilderness, but the environment has been polluted by vested interests for generations.  Survival would be difficult nowadays, even for native tribesmen of the Bay Area if they managed to be transported in time and space to the present day.

Fortunately, I'm told I live in a newly renovated high rise that's earthquake resistant.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on March 17, 2010, 03:08:02 AM
I'm doing a little research in the hopes of getting people to realize that they can avoid starvation.I live out in the country here in texas.If a person realizes they can eat meat by trapping some wildlife then they may be less likely to use a gun on their neighbors just to eat.Triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on March 17, 2010, 03:18:55 AM
In case you didn't know Some high level court decided that mercury in vaccines does not cause autism .Therefore more mercury may be added to our food supplies.Because government research holds mercury harmless.Therefore some high court may decide that pollution is not an issue.I have read Kevin Trudeas book on health cures they don't want you to know about.He talks on how he was part of a secret group that decided to increase the number of vaccines  to trigger an increase in autism.He was in the meetings where he was told the agenda at least.So hes not my favorite guy but I trust him in that one issue.Today by law a child is required to have 20 vaccines by the age of 1.   36 by the age of 5.Autism in 1980 was 1 in 10,000.Today it is 1 in 91.So you tell me whats going on?Triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on March 17, 2010, 03:25:46 AM
Today I found out that banks were behind the low prices of silver for many years(around $4.00 an ounce) by shorting it on wall street.So the banks again emerge as the bad guys here.AIG was a big player here.Their buying the silver to cover their short position may have single handedly drove the price from $4.00 to $8.00.Triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on March 17, 2010, 03:34:48 AM
So until we get major reforms in washington I see the bones of the little people being left out in the sun to bleach While the banks and bankers run this country the rest of the way into the ground.I see a day when the dollar is worthless.And people jump out of windows because they are ruined.Of course the banks and bankers will have advanced notice so their assets will be safe.Triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: 4Tesla on March 17, 2010, 06:06:44 PM
Hi all,

I haven't been following this thread.. have you all seen this 60 Minutes video?

Second Financial Economic Crash Coming
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKlBJavw_X4

4Tesla


Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on March 17, 2010, 07:52:43 PM
...I live out in the country here in texas.If a person realizes they can eat meat by trapping some wildlife then they may be less likely to use a gun on their neighbors just to eat.Triffid
@triffid
Well, that's a nice thought, but hoping Texans will voluntarily give up their guns is a "tall order", as some Texans might say.
(I used to live in Houston, so I have some experience with the people living there.)
Charlton Heston said the authorities would have to pry his gun from his "cold, dead fingers".  Some Texans feel the same way, I think.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on March 17, 2010, 10:30:30 PM
Hi all,
I haven't been following this thread.. have you all seen this 60 Minutes video?
Second Financial Economic Crash Coming
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKlBJavw_X4
4Tesla
Unfortunately, I have no earphones available to listen to the video.  However, whatever was said, I'd probably agree in principle to the subject of the video.
I get paid next month and will try to budget the headphone's cost and then see it in it's entirety.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: 4Tesla on March 18, 2010, 06:28:56 AM
Unfortunately, I have no earphones available to listen to the video.  However, whatever was said, I'd probably agree in principle to the subject of the video.
I get paid next month and will try to budget the headphone's cost and then see it in it's entirety.

I found a text version of this story:
Second Wave of the Housing Crisis
http://www.buzzle.com/articles/second-wave-of-the-housing-crisis.html

Take a look at the chart!

4Tesla
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: 4Tesla on March 18, 2010, 06:33:37 AM
Don't Buy Real Estate in March 2010, buy 2012 and after
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEbl4JWqe1E
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on March 18, 2010, 01:15:48 PM
I read more about silver yesterday and found out that its JP Morgan(bank) now shorting the silver market to like 190 million ounces.They control 30-40% of the silver on the market.If they ever decide to cover their shorts for whatever reason.It may jack the price up to $100 an ounce.Keep in mind that underhanded(also quiet) shorting of silver has kept the price down for nearly 40 years(last 15 for sure).If you collect silver for yourself keep it to yourself.Don't tell family.Loose lips sink ships.Family will steal from you.I have a friend who buried 3 $1000 caches in the ground.He made a map to it on his property and told his exwife and two daughters where it was.One month later he discovers its all gone.Someone came and dug it up.From his own family.So keep quiet if you have silver.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on March 18, 2010, 01:19:25 PM
The following is a comment from a forum on body scanning at airports.He says what I feel about vaccines.So I felt it was worth posting here.triffid
If thePTB put “radition” scanners in airports,… then simply don’t fly!!!!! Likewise, if the Autism-causing mercury in infant vaccines (MMR, etc.) is not removed,… then simply don’t have your children vaccinated!!!!!! We must stop mindlessly going-along with the status quo, which is set-up by thePTB to rob us and PHYSICALLY HARM us!!!!!! P.S. Today, in central ohio, I counted 52 separate chemtrail lines!!!!

Reply

Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on March 18, 2010, 01:28:34 PM
Whoever is putting up the chemtrails to posion us is doing the same to themselves.All the weather patterns of the earth are interconnected.The dust from Mt.St.Helen went around the world many times.Even if they can survive underground for years.Why?Its a lot better aboveground.Triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on March 18, 2010, 06:05:20 PM
I found a text version of this story:
Second Wave of the Housing Crisis
http://www.buzzle.com/articles/second-wave-of-the-housing-crisis.html
Take a look at the chart!
4Tesla
Good, 4tesla!  Thank you!
I always thought the subprime mortgages were covered by the "Stimulus Package", but then, in the background, the 'option ARM' and 'Alt-A' mortgages would raise their rates to unaffordable levels for the average American.
And!, there's a lot of them.  Good article.  I agree with the article's premise, as I said I would.
There's something else:
What makes this whole scenario so bad is that lots of people believed either the housing bubble would continue for years and years, or that they were told---and believed---they could always refinance their loans in a couple of years in a strong market.

Wishful thinking on a record breaking scale.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Azorus on March 18, 2010, 08:32:41 PM
Loved the article.  There is one problem with the time frame that is laid out, it does not take into account the amount of subprime mortgages that have already defaulted and have not been reclaimed.  I guess what I'm saying is these new Alt-A mortgages will fall into the already back logged subprime, just creating an even longer depression.  i suspect they are being overzelous with it coming lasting into 2012, I suspect it will be longer, more like 2014.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on March 19, 2010, 12:52:33 AM
Loved the article.  There is one problem with the time frame that is laid out, it does not take into account the amount of subprime mortgages that have already defaulted and have not been reclaimed.  I guess what I'm saying is these new Alt-A mortgages will fall into the already back logged subprime, just creating an even longer depression. ...
By that, I assume you mean the properties are languishing on the American real estate market and clogging the banks' books with bad assets?  If so, I agree the added delinquencies would depress the market further.
Quote
... i suspect they are being overzelous with it coming lasting into 2012, I suspect it will be longer, more like 2014.
Oh, absolutely.  And that's not all.  There's economic pressure on another front:

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/economics/article5733723.ece
(My question is:  Can Germany or France or the EU continue to bail out member states forever?  Without serious social consequences?  I think not.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/feb/07/greece-default-debt-eu
(Same thing here.  Other European countries have seen Greek history and may not help, especially concerning the 'running from the lion story' as related in the article.  Greek citizens are more than a little upset at their Gov't's taxation and cutback plans.

The American cable TV economic/political commentator, Glenn Beck, predicts financial chaos if the American Gov't does the same as Greece to try and fix the economy.

More fuel for the fire.  So, I agree with you Azorus.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on March 20, 2010, 04:00:53 AM
I got more info on silver today.It seems to me if an american bank like JP morgan can short 20-30% of the silver in the world and keep the price down for the past 15 years.Then they should be able to keep the price down for the next 5 years too.It depends on what the bank wants to do.Remember before JP Morgan it was AIG.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: X00013 on March 20, 2010, 05:15:57 AM
The real problem with this is food and water and or heat when your state/feds fail to spoon feed you what they have denied you for so long. 99.99 % of the population cant fend for themselves via food or power. Ask yourself this, can i provide and live for 12 months on my own and provide for my children, and after that
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on March 20, 2010, 08:58:33 PM
...Ask yourself this, can i provide and live for 12 months on my own and provide for my children, and after that
I agree.  If people aren't self-reliant, the whole world will end up looking like the movie, "The Road", with Viggo Mortenson:

http://www.theroad-movie.com/

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on March 22, 2010, 04:02:47 PM
Over the weekend I heard good news even though its about 3-5 years old.It seems that Iceland is trying to wean itself away from oil and natural gas by going over to hydrogen gas.Since they have so much geothermal power to generate electricity with .They are looking at getting the hydrogen by splitting water into h and o.The push was on to to develop add on hydrogen systems for any ICE powered car in the world.It seems that Germany is leading the way in hydrogen powered cars.Alan Alda was talking about it on a show on PBS tv.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on March 22, 2010, 04:08:47 PM
The show stated too that the car companies are determined to push us towards using hydrogen even though a battery powered car was developed with a 300 mile range.A two seater named the x-zero or x-one.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on March 22, 2010, 04:57:42 PM
I tried to find some info on that two seater but could not.I did find info on Stan and Iris Ovashinsky.More than anyone else they may pave the way towards us using hydrogen gas to get around on.triffid
http://www.pbs.org/saf/1506/features/ovshinsky.htm
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on March 22, 2010, 05:14:56 PM
I found bad news on Stan Ovshinsky's "half the cost of regular solar panel" solar panels.Read it and weep.Corporate greed triumphs again.Triffid
http://www.thegreenerhome.com/eblog/whatever-happened-to-low-cost-solar-power/
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on March 22, 2010, 05:23:34 PM
  United Solar Ovonic is a wholly owned subsidiary of Energy Conversion Devices, Inc. therefore its out of his hands triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: PhiScience on March 22, 2010, 07:21:23 PM
Yes, Iceland does have an abundant amount of geothermal activity going on. The latest from yesterday when lava is spotted coming out from under a glacier.  :o
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcUa_g_XVrQ&feature=player_embedded (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcUa_g_XVrQ&feature=player_embedded)

http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7018176163 (http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7018176163)

Now that thing could light up a few light bulbs, don’t you think?
And for a lot cheaper than a nuclear power plant.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on March 22, 2010, 08:36:05 PM
Over the weekend I heard good news even though its about 3-5 years old.It seems that Iceland is trying to wean itself away from oil and natural gas by going over to hydrogen gas.
That's all well and good, as far as that goes.  However, if their economy collapses, can their farmers or fishermen feed the country on available farmland or dwindling oceanic fauna?
I GOOGLized "iceland food production imports":  Iceland probably imports about 100,000 metric tonnes of different, various kinds of foods this year and last, at least.  Cereals, sugar and similar items, for example.  Things they need but can't be acquired in Iceland's yearly weather.
And also: Corrugated iron and similar specialized items.  Not that much heavy industry on Iceland.

If they have no money or less of it, the lack thereof will be a problem for them.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on March 24, 2010, 02:56:29 AM
I guess geothermal production of electrical power is the main thing Iceland has going for it.They have the cheap electrical power to refine aluminum.There were about 300,000 people in the country in 2005.Maybe more now?A pound of aluminum requires so much electricity to refine it that you could almost consider it solid electricity.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on March 24, 2010, 03:18:10 AM
I guess geothermal production of electrical power is the main thing Iceland has going for it.They have the cheap electrical power to refine aluminum.
That's right.  Lots and lots of heat.  That recent volcano erupting has melted it way all the way through the glacier it under.  The patch of bare rock is getting bigger.  And, there's a bigger volcano nearby that could even change the Earth's climate(natural nuclear winter---well, autumn).
Quote
There were about 300,000 people in the country in 2005.Maybe more now?A pound of aluminum requires so much electricity to refine it that you could almost consider it solid electricity.triffid
That's true.  I learned that in high school.  That's why OU is so important.

To the thread topic:
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Euro-Sunk-As-Greece-Bailout-fxcm-4126397018.html?x=0&.v=1
http://thedailybell.com/781/The-Great-Greek-Unraveling-of-the-EU.html
(That second article is something to read carefully.  If the EU falls apart politically and/or financially, that could destabilize a lot of the world's healthier economies---including ours, since England and that part of the world is so interconnected to our economy.  It's all connected.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic disaster coming... as updated from Page 1...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on March 25, 2010, 02:09:25 AM
@all
Even if this site below is religiously oriented, they actually do have a point:
http://www.thetrumpet.com/index.php?q=6392.4873.0.0
Also:
http://dailyreckoning.com/yet-another-jobs-dilemma/

http://www.thetrumpet.com/index.php?q=6097.4500.0.0


UPDATE:
http://alldownriver.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-51045.html

http://fargoneworld.blogspot.com/2009/02/summer-of-rage-may-spill-into-worldwide.html

There are other articles available for downloading, of course, but my point is:  After the Health Care vote in Congress, signed into law by the President, some congressional members, especially Democrats---including phone calls---were verbally threatened.  Vandalism of their offices, etc.

This is a new one to me.  To say the least!!!!!  But, since I live in a West Coast multistory, low income high rise, I'm going to budget more money in Apr. for cans of food.  And, refrain from buying much for my refrigerator, since the power might fail if the national social situation "goes south" and civil unrest erupts like the articles above speculate may happen.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: onthecuttingedge2005 on March 25, 2010, 02:12:27 AM
this vote shows you only one thing, there was more pessimist voting.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on March 25, 2010, 02:29:15 AM
this vote shows you only one thing, there was more pessimist voting.
Can you be more descriptive?
I notice, on TV and the local streets as well, people in this country are becoming furious that the politicians let the economy get away from their control.

That's the short answer.  I can go into more detail, but OU Members can also look around themselves as well as I can.

--Lee
 
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: onthecuttingedge2005 on March 25, 2010, 02:42:14 AM
Can you be more descriptive?
I notice, on TV and the local streets as well, people in this country are becoming furious that the politicians let the economy get away from their control.

That's the short answer.  I can go into more detail, but OU Members can also look around themselves as well as I can.

--Lee

then that is their own fault. avoiding a self blamer because you are to lazy to keep up with the times is self blatant. blame yourself for not keeping up with times on time.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on March 25, 2010, 03:01:02 AM
then that is their own fault. ...
Okay, they can take responsibility for their own actions.  I'm not going to get involved with, or be the focus of, an angry mob when I don't have to.  Obviously! 
Quote
...avoiding a self blamer because you are to lazy to keep up with the times is self blatant.
I don't follow this line of reasoning.  Can you put it another way?  In particular, if I'm presenting opinions here on any OU Forum, is that blatant to those who might disagree with me?
Quote
...blame yourself for not keeping up with times on time.
I watch the cable local and national news daily.  I know it's slanted toward a political ideology, one way or another, but I like to look at what actually happens and not pay close attention to any one political opinion over another.  They're all the same to me.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: onthecuttingedge2005 on March 25, 2010, 03:20:10 AM
Okay, they can take responsibility for their own actions.  I'm not going to get involved with, or be the focus of, an angry mob when I don't have to.  Obviously!  I don't follow this line of reasoning.  Can you put it another way?  In particular, if I'm presenting opinions here on any OU Forum, is that blatant to those who might disagree with me?I watch the cable local and national news daily.  I know it's slanted toward a political ideology, one way or another, but I like to look at what actually happens and not pay close attention to any one political opinion over another.  They're all the same to me.

--Lee

anything you cannot solve is your fault, no matter what. you can't avoid it no matter what, you can deny it but you will - always be at fault. laws of nature undiscovered! quoted by me.

the important thing is we survived and we did survive, without, any God.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on March 25, 2010, 03:38:45 AM
anything you cannot solve is your fault, no matter what. ...
If I don't know the particulars to a problem, or have no experience with it, all I can do is deal with it when I realize it for what it is.  I don't know everything and am not responsible for other people's actions, even if a politician make a law that I disagree with.  Vote him/her out?  Doesn't work.

"Stupidity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting the result to be different."                                                                            
                                                           --Glenn Beck, conservative cable political commentator.

Quote
...you can't avoid it no matter what, you can deny it but you will - always be at fault.
An example of my point:
Some religionists may say I'm responsible so the Original Sin in the Garden of Eden.  Because Adam sinned, I'm also responsible.  Really, some would.  Because I'm a Jew, and I wasn't then and there, and I refuse to take the blame for Adam's and Eve's actions.

I'm not "at fault" for something I didn't do.  I recognize I have my problems, but no one will deal with them but me in my own time.  That is my responsibility, and I can accept that.

That's the extent of my belief system I've decided to relate to you.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: onthecuttingedge2005 on March 25, 2010, 03:46:08 AM
If I don't know the particulars to a problem, or have no experience with it, all I can do is deal with it when I realize it for what it is.  I don't know everything and am not responsible for other people's actions, even if a politician make a law that I disagree with.  Vote him/her out?  Doesn't work.

"Stupidity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting the result to be different."                                                                            
                                                           --Glenn Beck, conservative cable political commentator.
An example of my point:
Some religionists may say I'm responsible so the Original Sin in the Garden of Eden.  Because Adam sinned, I'm also responsible.  Really, some would.  Because I'm a Jew, and I wasn't then and there, I refuse to take the blame for Adam's and Eve's actions actions.

I'm not "at fault" for something I didn't do.  I recognize I have my problems, but no one will deal with them but me in my own time.  That is my responsibility, and I can accept that.

--Lee

you will never settle yourself until you agree, like I said, you can deny it all you want, everyone is guilty unless they can come up with an answer to the problem and deliver it. if you can not solve it then you are just as guilty as the one who committed it. laws of nature undiscovered! I have read the bible hundreds of times, if you even think it you are guilty of doing it. even as an Atheist I hold some value in ancient scripture absolute.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on March 25, 2010, 03:51:50 AM
anything you cannot solve is your fault, no matter what. you can't avoid it no matter what, you can deny it but you will - always be at fault. laws of nature undiscovered! quoted by me.
I've perceived things I understand, but refuse to tell you:

"Anyone who tells the absolute truth to someone who doesn't deserve it, is partly responsible for the indiscretions the other person causes."

--Theosophist doctrine
(And I'm not a follower of their religion just accept this one quotation as being valid to me.)
Quote
the important thing is we survived and we did survive, without, any God.
"You can follow your Path and I can follow mine.  The destination is the same."
--Theosophist doctrine

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: onthecuttingedge2005 on March 25, 2010, 03:58:09 AM
Quote
You can follow your Path and I can follow mine.  The destination is the same."

How true! you are very wise. I don't say that lightly. besides, there is nothing in your head that has not been discovered in another mind. it holds true for even those you would call your enemy.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: sparks on March 26, 2010, 05:29:10 AM
     All economies are based on trust.  When physcological attacks that spawn paranoia isolation and distrust are perpetrated what else but an economic collapse will insue.  Nations stop putting money into farming and infrastructure and start buying security crap.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Azorus on March 26, 2010, 12:33:36 PM
From what I have read it seems that lee and over are both right.  Government has let spending get out of control, people have elected government.  both right.  You can change it by voting in people that will change spending, or we can keep going down the same path we are on now.

I don't blame republicans or democrats for the problems we as a nation face right now.  the reason is because they both created it.  It will take both parties to fix this mess, i just don't think either is willing to help the other at this point in time.

By the way we are up to 37 failed banks so far this year.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on March 26, 2010, 12:57:35 PM
Uncontrolled spending by government is nothing new.I was alive in the 1970's and saw first hand what happened when the government printed money to pay for the vietnam war.Prices rose on everything (homes,Rv's).1979 saw $850 an ounce gold and $50.00 an ounce silver(Hunt brothers buying the silver here).Now its J.P. Morgan shorting it in 2010.I found a link to a "grow dome".If we all could build our own greenhouse to grow food in.It could look something like this.http://halfpasthuman.com/Growdome/Growdome09.htm
triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on March 26, 2010, 01:04:04 PM
Plastic doesn't have to be clear to allow enough light to come through for plants to grow.Triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on March 26, 2010, 01:11:52 PM
I disagree with the current level of violence against our elected officials.Vote them out of office if you want.I have nothing against that.But bricks through the windows and bullets through the door make you a criminal.Pure and simple.Today I heard someone fired a shot into an elected officials office somewhere.We are not fighting Nazis here.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on March 26, 2010, 01:20:34 PM
The healthcare issue was personal for Obama as he saw his mother battle insurance companies to the (her) end from cancer.Some of us might have forgotten that or never knew it.My own mother died from cancer in 1994.So I can relate.Triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on March 26, 2010, 08:51:05 PM
Just when you thought we weren't going to talk about the chinese anymore I found this on www.earthfiles.com.
The fact that NASA computers can be accessed and downloaded by nations such as China, does that imply perhaps one of our blind sides in the past was that companies that make computers had the computers constructed by Chinese labor and perhaps backdoors and accesses to all computers going to the United States and other countries were engineered during the Chinese assembly of computers so Chinese intelligence would have easy access, even to computers that you would think would have serious firewalls.
triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on March 26, 2010, 09:08:43 PM
Another detail I found on www.earthfiles.com talk about increasing seed costs for farmers since 1996.We have to step back and ask ourselves, ‘Why have we had to step up this chemical warfare on soybean, cotton and corn farms so dramatically since 1996? I think fundamentally the answer is: a technology came along – genetic engineering – where the private sector realized there were some ways to create patent-protected profits in major crops that were associated with these pesticide management kind of traits turning the crops into little mini-insecticide factories creating herbicide-tolerant crops. Right now the honeybees and bats are dying(honeybees again) possibly due to genetically engineered crops.So we create plants that make their own insecticides.The bugs eat the plants the bats eat the bugs and die.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on March 26, 2010, 09:20:47 PM
Just as I thought J.P. Morgan wins again over weak government.http://www.zerohedge.com/article/whistleblower-exposes-jp-morgans-silver-manipulation-scheme    triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on March 26, 2010, 09:22:42 PM
@triffid
With respect to your Reply #421,

I hadn't thought of genetically engineered crops being their own self-generating insecticide factories.  No wonder, then, that other bees won't eat remaining honey in bee colonies that collapse.  It's poisoned.

And, one third of commercial crops are pollinated by bees.  This is a worsening problem, if that's the certain, proveable cause.  Food shortages!!
The question is, do bees simply fly away and die, or do they die in the hive and therefore demonstrate the cause of their demise by chemical analysis?

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: X00013 on March 26, 2010, 11:37:37 PM
Short answer is bees die because there basic diet has been replaced with crop fields. Long answer is wild bees feed on wild flowers which you cant find so much anymore. Plant one acre or more of unmolested wild flowers next to your wanted yield of man made fruit/vegies,  and your hive will be somthing to be scared of. And if you are a good observer, you will observe the colony prefers the wild stuff. Find me a bee guy with over an acre of wild flowers that bitchn about bee disorder death and i will... lost connection
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on March 27, 2010, 02:11:40 AM
I disagree with the current level of violence against our elected officials. ...
I agree absolutely.
But as long as people are scared of starving and also: Believing they have nothing to lose by potentially starving(?), congress-men's/-women's security will need to be strengthened:

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/nation_world/20100326_Intensity_of_threats_leads_to_tighter_lawmaker_security.html
http://videosift.com/video/Congress-threatened-with-Martial-Law-if-bill-is-not-passed

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: sparks on March 27, 2010, 03:59:11 AM
  The truth is we are way beyond being able to live with the tidbits nature provides.  We need to replace nature as a fuel scource.  When it comes right down to it the mitochondria of cells is what keeps us alive.  They burn sugars.  Then we breath in air which provides us with nitrogen and oxygen and we synthesize our cells from carbon oxygen nitrogen and water.  There has got to be a way for chemists to produce sustenance instead of relying on nature to provide bounty.  If we are to survive as a species it is time to be weened from the breast of nature.  She's drying up anyway so lets start looking for at least a minimal 2000 calorie a day pill that will keep us from scavenging for meals three times a day and some good old h20.  You can go hungry for days thirsty for a matter of hours.  The elite would have us begging and borrowing from them for fresh water if we dont get a handle on this thing soon.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on March 27, 2010, 04:25:44 AM
I can pull water from thin air using potassium chloride and use solar heat to release the water it trapped and repeat the cycle as long as I need to. So I can in theory fill large tanks with water  pulled from the air.I don't think plants can be beat as a food source.I would like to see a chemist try.If you go to Mcdonalds and order chicken nuggets you are eating a bunch of chemicals(about 63 I think).So we are already eating God knows what.Tonight on ABC there was a two hour special on Jamie Oliver's "Food Revolution".He's famous in England for getting healthier foods into the school systems there.He was also on Oprah today with a critic turned convert for his cause.He started his quest for a healthier America in Huntington,West Va.From what I saw from him on Oprah.I would say
hes on the right path.The kids today will live shorter lifespans than their parents unless we turn the tide somehow.Jamie Oliver is here to help turn things around.So pay attention to him and watch him.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: sparks on March 27, 2010, 04:32:46 AM
  Solar is good.  That combined with reverse osmosis membranes to desalinate water is a good combination.  If the desert nations would start investing oil dollars into solar instead of weapons to keep the wolves from the door they would be doing themselves and the rest of the world a great service.  Even the frigging Zionists have deserts they could setup solar in.  Then huge desalinization plants to turn the whole dried up rock strewn shithole into a producing nation instead of a bunch of idiots waiting around for God to do something special for them.  Hes gonna do something special alright.  Keep it up and hes gonna get rid of us all cause he doesnt have time to figure out who is stirring up all the shit.  Hes just gonna say fuck it and its gonna start raining.  Imagine the issues God has to deal with.  Supernovas and blackholes.  He doesnt have time for a bunch of idiots running around claiming they are special.  We're all just smartmonkeys at the lowest rung of awareness.  No God has ever spoken to any man ever.  It would be like us talking to a house fly.  FUTILE.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on March 27, 2010, 04:32:54 AM
Huntington,West Va was selected by USA government sources as the most unhealthy city in the USA.So Jamie Oliver went there first because that city had the most deaths from obesity.His worst critic at first was a DJ from 9307 DAWG radio station.So I hope to follow the man's lead and learn more from him.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on March 27, 2010, 04:38:54 AM
The desert nations developed "drip irrigation" of crops.So they can turn the deserts into gardens if their will is strong enough.Politics always seem to get in the way.But we are the smart monkeys like you said so we should be able to figure things out and survive another million years.Triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: sparks on March 27, 2010, 04:49:33 AM
  The problem I see is that the people in power that can make things happen are too busy staying in power to make anything happen.  They spend more time posturing and manuvering debating and showing how powerful they are than producing anything but krap.  Basically a bunch of animals trying to be leader of the pack.  Absolutely no idea how to lead just how to fight.  65million years later the dinosaur still roams. 
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: X00013 on March 28, 2010, 05:40:14 AM
IMHO, Germany was the last Country to truly challenge the World Banks over 50 years ago.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: X00013 on March 28, 2010, 06:01:06 AM
You heat/power your home how, gas, diesel, electric, wood, coal, what % of this enegy goes out as potential energy, the State/government doesnt care, as long as you keep paying your bill to them what you could be doing yourself. Only if u could find a home Carnot cycle engine.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on March 28, 2010, 08:00:22 AM
To big M .That first website on solar panels is almost a complete course by itself.I did not see a blocking diode mentioned anywhere.The second website shows a charge controller being used and how the guy brought the power into his home to be stored,then used.The first website shows the cost of building to be less than $105.00 for his panel.The third website talks about the screenprinting process of making solar cells but of course they want money.Some time ago I found the patent on that process and posted it here on OU on another thread.So I will dig it up and post it on this thread also.So Big M, thank you for sharing those websites.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on March 28, 2010, 08:05:15 AM
You have to admire a guy who has his own space program.Especially when it cost him only $750 compared to the millions that Nasa spends.He even used DUCT TAPE!!!Its stuff like this that gives me hope someone will come up with OU no matter what the oil companies want.Triffid
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/balloon-camera-duct-tape-shoot-earth-pictures-space/story?id=10210658
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on March 28, 2010, 09:18:35 AM
To big M,I found that patent again for the screen printing of solar cells.Way too involved for me but here it is:
Ok ,here goes  the rest of the info on making a solar cell using aluminum foil
according to patent#5,538,903 and the ebook that r8rchris posted:
5)nickle metal(ink in a screen pattern)-dry only(neg electrode)
4)(n-type)mixed cadium sulphide and cadium chloride and proylene glycol(CdS layer)
3)(p-type)(CdTe layer) an eqi-mol mixture of Cadium (Cd) and Tellurium(Te) powders with addition of CdCl2 and pg(proylene glycol)
2)carbon electrode layer with silver and Indium mixed in.
1)aluminum foil(pos electrode)
layers 2,3, and 4 are to be dried and baked at 600 degree C one layer on top of the other
Triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on March 28, 2010, 09:33:28 AM
To Big M,In the first website you mentioned he does mention blocking diodes.I only skimmed over it the first time.It helped a lot.Thank you.Good info for free.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on March 28, 2010, 10:30:09 PM
triffid said:
Quote

To big M,I found that patent again for the screen printing of A cells.Way too involved for me but here it is:
according to patent#5,538,903
Here's the patent:
http://www.google.com/patents?id=6SYeAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4#v=onepage&q=&f=false

The problem I see with the process is the reliance on stuff like indium and other rare earth elements:  Expensive and possibly having national security interest?

There are kits assembled by at least one company that takes discarded chips of solar panels and allows the builder to make a 40-100 Watt solar panel.  That's a lot easier.  Cheaper by the Watt, too.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on March 29, 2010, 07:39:25 AM
Thanks big M for that first website.He also built a wind powered generator for $140.00 and told how he did it on another webpage.He appears to do everything very well.Mike,the astronomer, is truly an inspiration to all of us.And you are right,slightly chipped solar cells and those with blemishes are ok for me to use.Triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on March 29, 2010, 07:48:37 AM
I just checked ebay for solar cells and found this:108 Solar Cells 3x6 Tabbed A Panel Kit w/Wire Flux
#1 Solar Cells Seller on eBay! Temporary Promotion! price is $170.00 for enough solar cells to make three panels.Each panel could produce about 60 watts of power. They have ten kits for sale.Triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on March 29, 2010, 02:18:11 PM
I was checking A for solar cells again and found the following website with a lot of details for solar panel construction.triffid
http://www.diypvsolarenergy.com/basic-solar-panel-design/
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: X00013 on March 29, 2010, 06:07:44 PM
I still aint seen no naked sphere neos, show me yours, and ill show you mine.  ;D
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on March 30, 2010, 02:13:15 PM
Food,food,food.Catherine Austin Fitts says its a growth industry now in the USA.She was on coasttocoastam last night talking about how we have have outsource enough jobs,capital and machinery overseas to create major readjustments in this country that we have not gone through yet.She gave a couple of websites that indicates a movement toward growing healthier food.Half an acre or even one city lot that you have planted with food can help make the difference for you.I have planted food myself on land I don't own.My edibles look like sunflowers.
http://www.ediblecommunities.com/content/
http://www.acresusa.com/magazines/magazine.htm
triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on March 30, 2010, 02:17:45 PM
I was checking on ebay again this morning.That outfit with the solar cell kits now has 84 kits for sale.Its the one I mentioned earlier.Theres lots of room to get in boys.I will go slow myself.About 6 months.Triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on March 30, 2010, 02:32:44 PM
What I learned from planting food on land I don't own.You have to be careful where you plant.Sometimes the city comes along and mows it down or puts spray on it.Sometimes if people see you they think you are planting illegals.I try to plant stuff that blends in ,looks like weeds ,away from roads and roadsides.I prefer county land myself.I planted my first "weeds" 17 years ago.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on March 30, 2010, 02:35:26 PM
I try to plant stuff that doesn't need attention.Onions are one good example,so is garlic.You get the idea.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on March 30, 2010, 06:55:29 PM
triffid said:
Quote
She gave a couple of websites that indicates a movement toward growing healthier food.Half an acre or even one city lot that you have planted with food can help make the difference for you.I have planted food myself on land I don't own.My edibles look like sunflowers.
http://www.ediblecommunities.com/content/
http://www.acresusa.com/magazines/magazine.htm
There's a growing movement(small) here in San Francisco to use unused parts of urban parks and vacant lots for growing edible crops.
This won't help most people, but it's a good example-setting move.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: onthecuttingedge2005 on March 30, 2010, 07:04:50 PM
instead of planting shade trees in parking lots and stuff planting fruit trees would be better, this way the transients and bums can get something to eat from time to time. there are also some fruit trees that can grow multiple kinds of fruits.

I am still waiting for trees that grow multiple vegetables, some hybrid of the Avocado tree or something.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on March 30, 2010, 07:24:15 PM
instead of planting shade trees in parking lots and stuff planting fruit trees would be better, this way the transients and bums can get something to eat from time to time. there are also some fruit trees that can grow multiple kinds of fruits.
I agree with the above, since I was a "transient" in the past.
However, the City of San Francisco is considering a law banning sitting or lying on sidewalks inside the City limits.  That goes for everyone.

(insert many cuss words here) Politics!!!!!   >:(   ::)   :-\    :-[

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on March 30, 2010, 09:09:07 PM
Azorus said:
Quote
Loved the article.  There is one problem with the time frame that is laid out, it does not take into account the amount of subprime mortgages that have already defaulted and have not been reclaimed.
As with many things nowadays, the economy has several worsening threats:

http://finance.yahoo.com/banking-budgeting/article/109211/state-debt-woes-grow-too-big-to-camouflage

The whole article says it all.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: sparks on March 31, 2010, 06:10:51 AM
  Talking about growing stuff and bankowned properties.   Banks are now abandoning their properties.  The municipalities are taking over pocession of the properties because the banks are unable to make the tax payments on them.  Besides that they are becoming public health risks due to rodent infestation and homeless people living in them without running water.  Never mind yachts and house boats abandoned at Marinas up and down the coast turning into algae and barnacle farms.  Seems the paper pushers never really had anything to begin with besides paper.  They had everyone in their maintaining their property and paying their real estate taxes but they got greedy pumped up values sold paper listing bad paper as an asset and the balloon burst.  If you dont have the means to buy it today what gives you the idea you will have the means to buy it tomorrow.  You get rich providing a needed product or service fine you get rich running scams like insurance and credit tough luck get a real job.  To hell with the trickle down economy lets poor it in at the bottom and let the cream of the crop bubble up to the top.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Azorus on March 31, 2010, 12:10:55 PM
Thanks for the article big.  Like it has pointed out there are many finacial "bombs" that have had there fuse lit, but haven't gone off yet.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on March 31, 2010, 06:33:20 PM
Thanks for the article big.  Like it has pointed out there are many finacial "bombs" that have had there fuse lit, but haven't gone off yet.
Yeah, true.  Even if things appear to be improving, people usually aren't looking at distinct elements of the overall picture and how they relate to each other.

This is not a good idea.  Unpleasant surprises are possible.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on April 01, 2010, 11:38:42 AM
Heres some unpleasant surprises.I got the news tonight that gas will go up to $3.75 a gallon within a year from now.War with Iran in 1 to 1 1/2 years.The dollar will lose 50% of its value within a year.This and more details on a set of cd's at this website.The elite that rule the world told him whats going to happen in the next two years.triffid
http://www.prophecyclub.com/
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: madhu11 on April 01, 2010, 11:46:58 AM
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Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: madhu11 on April 01, 2010, 11:48:52 AM
Whoo-hoo! Kentucky border! I'm in a car, driving. Six more hours until destination. I'm not driving, God, no. I've only ever driven and typed once. I think I wrote the best paper of my life that morning.


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tricycle italtrike (http://ItaltrikeTricycles.com)
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Azorus on April 01, 2010, 12:53:24 PM
Heres some unpleasant surprises.I got the news tonight that gas will go up to $3.75 a gallon within a year from now.War with Iran in 1 to 1 1/2 years.The dollar will lose 50% of its value within a year.This and more details on a set of cd's at this website.The elite that rule the world told him whats going to happen in the next two years.triffid
http://www.prophecyclub.com/

Gas will go up, however it is hard to predict that it will go to 3.75 within a year.  War with Iran seems very unlikely, It would seem highly unlikely because the U.S. is not in a financial situation to start another war without finishing the two it is already in.  And for the last statement that the Dollar will lose 50% of it's valuse seems unlikely as well. At the moment the dollar is gaining on most currencies, for it to lose half of it's current value would not follow world trends, just unlikely not impossible.

Also the website that you have listed is clearly about getting money.  It has nothing to do with the truth of anything.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on April 02, 2010, 05:40:27 AM
Heres some unpleasant surprises.I got the news tonight that gas will go up to $3.75 a gallon within a year from now. ...
http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/apr2008/2008-04-09-091.asp

Well, you might have a point.  The site above isn't religiously oriented, though.




Quote
... War with Iran in 1 to 1 1/2 years. ...




http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread191121/pg1

These scenarios are open to debate.  I think it depends on the unpredictable actions of a few men in power.  Hard to say what's going to happen.




Quote
The dollar will lose 50% of its value within a year.  The elite that rule the world told him whats going to happen in the next two years.triffid
http://seekingalpha.com/article/87879-why-the-u-s-dollar-will-continue-to-lose-value

I agree with simple explanation.  This can happen.




Quote
This and more details on a set of cd's at thiswebsite.
http://www.prophecyclub.com/
I don't take these sites seriously.  I didn't even take Ruth Montgomery seriously because her predictions, when they were made, aren't necessarily accurate today.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic disaster coming... as updated from Page 1...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on April 03, 2010, 02:12:33 AM
the_big_m_in_ok said:
Quote
There are other articles available for downloading, of course, but my point is:  After the Health Care vote in Congress, signed into law by the President, some congressional members, especially Democrats---including phone calls---were verbally threatened.  Vandalism of their offices, etc.
Here's a new development:
http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/04/02/governors.extremists/index.html?hpt=T2

Even some politicians have admitted their constituents are extremely angry over Congress' inaction to solve this country's problems.  There's one more indication in the link above.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: sparks on April 03, 2010, 02:28:26 AM
   There are an estimated 30million homes in foreclosure in just the US right now.  If the banks continue to force the foreclosures this will put 120 million people on the street.  This is just the single family dwellings and does not reflect apartment housing.    As more and more tenants become underemployed or unemployed more evictions are taking place.  So now we have empty apartment complexes which of course the bank owns.  And those thieving mortgage underwriters aren't making good on their contracts with the banks.  Strongarming young people who just want a place to raise a family.  Not against the law but written into the law.  There is the saying there will be hell to pay.  Hell has been paid in more than full now its heavens turn.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on April 03, 2010, 02:54:23 AM
   There are an estimated 30million homes in foreclosure in just the US right now.  If the banks continue to force the foreclosures this will put 120 million people on the street. ...
I found this:
http://money.cnn.com/2008/06/05/news/economy/foreclosure/index.htm

It isn't 30 million, but you do have a point for apartments adding to the problem.  I heard on the news awhile ago that 1/3 of the people being evicted are living in rented apartments---which were used as investment properties the same way houses were.
Quote
...more tenants become underemployed or unemployed more evictions are taking place.  So now we have empty apartment complexes which of course the bank owns. ...
Yep, exactly.  No one is immune unless you live in the woods.
Quote
... And those thieving mortgage underwriters aren't making good on their contracts with the banks. ...
The underwriters had lax regulations to aid them, true, but people really are hurting for money.  Hardly a day goes by that a street person doesn't beg to me for money.  They're numbers would equal an army. ...
Quote
... Strongarming young people who just want a place to raise a family.  Not against the law but written into the law.  There is the saying there will be hell to pay.  Hell has been paid in more than full now its heavens turn.
Their karma is coming due.  There'll be "hell to pay", as you put it, yes.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: X00013 on April 03, 2010, 06:36:31 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TNgA1Jb_C0

imagine a world when that piano was built.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on April 05, 2010, 10:28:01 PM
The coming collapse could be hastened by a realization that we can't win in SW Asia.  And this doesn't help at all:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36178710/ns/world_news-south_and_central_asia/

What?!
"Baksheesh"(about equals a 'Mafia payoff' or a bribe) has been a tradition for centuries in that part of the world.  Karzai knows he can't stop it, and the Americans are asking for the impossible for him to try, but his attitude is typical for people in SW Asia.  Everyone for himself.  We're outnumbered by people who think this way(read: everyone).

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: sparks on April 06, 2010, 12:36:12 AM
  Win what for who? For a viable economy you must produce something.  The United States government has decided to produce hatred which justifies the huge defense budget as well as the newly formed department of homeland scrutiny.
Where are the new jobs Obama was going to generate in the Energy industry.  How many solar farms are going up with government grant money.  How many electric cars are being produced.  We bail out automakers who could easily retool  for mass production of affordable electric vehicles but we just bail them out no strings attached.  Like get an affordable  electric personal vehicle to the marketplace in two years or you dont get the bailout.  We bailout money lenders no strings attached like if you dont start offering no interest loans to people who would like to buy electric vehicles or any other carbon footprint reducing device we will yank your license and sieze all your shareholders personal property as well as commit their children and grandchildren to working at the automakers plants for slave wages.  No it is the other way around.  They have indebted people who arent even born yet so the security and banking industry can rake it in.  Silicon valley is in this shit up to its ears.  Millions if not billions of manhours going into acquisition scrutiny and storage of useless data on everyone everywhere/  Who reaps the profit.  The security and financing industry.  From the soldiers to the hightech computer suppliers and corporate financiers. Disgusting waste of human life.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on April 06, 2010, 03:53:33 AM
  Win what for who?
Nothing for anyone.  I more than agree with the paragraph below.  Absolutely, yes.

I expect the economy to collapse in due course, and when it does, those American and NATO troops will be in 'dire straits', as it were, when most or all their home countries no longer have the wherewithal to provide support for them.  That's why "we can't win", no matter what.

Referring to the rest of the paragraph:
You're entirely correct in the gist.  American and world leaders have let down their constituents by poor economic and legal policies to the point that collapse is imminent.  No one country's government has lasted long, to this day.  They always begin and end, one way or another.  This country is no different.  It'll come.

I'm nobody great; I don't have the ability to influence people to think differently and allow them to save themselves.  I've seen in history where, usually, religious leaders like the Pharaoh Akhenaten tried to change the prevailing beliefs of his countrymen and was eventually rejected.  Anyone who thinks way differently than those around them and then voices their opinion often becomes a target for attacks.  Also, historically, the Mayan empire collapse from war, famine or both.  They all do.

What to do?  The best we can, given the circumstances?  Complaining, especially if one can prove their arguments convincingly, will often result in martyrdom.

As Cap-Z-ro said:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8835.msg231896;topicseen#msg231896
Pg. 4, Reply #46

I'll wait to see what happens.

--Lee

 
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: giantkiller on April 06, 2010, 11:34:49 PM
The U.S. population is on a train wreck with outnumbering the Social Security System. Everybody get your number right here! We already have a number anyway. The implant is on your property and flesh not your skin. Just like in Revelation.

Yellow stone is going to be detonated on June 10, 2010. Oh dear a national disaster. My what shall we do? Uncle Sam will help us, right? Never let a good commotion go unused... Muhahahah!
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on April 07, 2010, 07:18:17 PM
I have been checking out solar cell kits on ebay($170.00 for 108 solar cells)And found 144 solar cells for $150 from another buyer so thats enough for 7 solar panels at $47.71 per solar panel that still needs to be put together.So the basic cost for me would be $47.71 for the solar cells.Then diodes out of old tv's,radios,computers,and wire from old cords,extension cords too.Old outdoor paint from garage sales.Some pieces of wood I would want to buy if I couldn't salvage it.Not counting my time
I might be able to keep the total cost down around 60-65 dollars a panel.Not bad for solar panels that the powers that be are determined to make everybody keep paying a premium for the next hundred years.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on April 07, 2010, 07:28:42 PM
So if we assume 60 watts for each panel then 7 times 60watts equals 420 watts.For a cost of $420(if the panels cost $60.00 each).Thats 1 dollar per watt.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on April 07, 2010, 07:34:14 PM
So if we want to generate 3 kilowatts per hour.You need 50 solar panels on the roof
So 50 panels times $60.00 dollars equals $3000.Or $1500 if you want a 1.5 kilowatt system(25 panels).triffid
Title: Rather than start a new thread on my new-found reference...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on April 08, 2010, 07:30:07 PM
...I'll just explain my position, thusly:
...I'll wait to see what happens.

There is actually something I can do, but it's specific to me:

I'm buying cans of food and containers of spring water ahead of the time when the economy will probably be gravely affected by several, or many, crisis-es.
There's something else:
http://www.keelynet.com/energy/reac.htm

I live is a controlled access, low income high rise that's been earthquake retrofitted.  If the power fails, one of the systems described in the Internet page above can be utilized by me.

So, I actually can do something in the future if and when the situation becomes dire.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on April 09, 2010, 05:12:42 AM
I found another website for building solar panels.triffid
http://sites.google.com/site/earthforsolar/
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on April 11, 2010, 02:26:04 AM
On ebay they have loose broken solar cells.Most of them not really broken,Just odd assorted sizes like 2x3,2x6,3x3,etc.About 2000 of these would build about 50 solar panels.Which would provide close to 3 kwatts per hour.Cost on ebay could be less than $1000.A guy would have to solder a bunch of solar cells together.So count however many hours he would have to spend to assemble
those 50 panels.But I figure he would have electricity for life if he chose to.The actual solar cells might cost around $1000.The other materials might cost more.But a lot of it could be salvaged.
Just thinking out loud here.Triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on April 13, 2010, 04:26:08 PM
My first order of 20 plus solar cells are on its way to me so is a 20 watt soldering iron from ebay.I have a 30 watt already but it seems a 20 watt is the proper tool.Of course I have bids on other solar cells too.We will see what happens.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: X00013 on April 13, 2010, 08:44:11 PM
Mark my words ( and Check my posts to confirm ), I said late 2010 will be best time to buy land cash cheap in a non earthquake area like new englend. As interest rates rise, gold ( and i dont mean stock) is king,buy pure gold,  food, fire power is king.  And for ten grand you have nothn 2 loose.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on April 13, 2010, 09:12:29 PM
As interest rates rise, gold ( and i dont mean stock) is king,buy A,...
When the economic conditions get so bad that a depression occurs,  Gold will do no good.  My late uncle told me gold and cash had a whole lot less value in the Great Depression.
Quote
...food, fire power is king.  And for ten grand you have nothn 2 loose.
Right.  Commodities are the best way to go.  Don't let anyone know you have them, though.  They'll come looking for you.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: X00013 on April 15, 2010, 05:34:27 AM
Big o, your wrong, gold had value, us dollar notes could no longer be changed for gold
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: X00013 on April 15, 2010, 06:45:09 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2_o4PbbqLA
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: X00013 on April 16, 2010, 04:35:37 AM
@myz http://www.youtube.com/user/edsolp#p/f/0/lIr8u0j08gU
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on April 16, 2010, 05:01:52 AM
I read an interesting article in which bars of soap and packs of smokes were sold to secure funds for a good evening of entertainment in post war japan.The two seamen involved had no gold to sell.But they had soap and smokes from the ships stores.These things were scarce and hard to come by in post war japan.So they sold them for a good amount of money.Smokes go stale after 6 months to a year but bars of soap last 2 or 3 years or longer?I bought my second set of solar cells tonight on ebay.So now I will have 45 plus cells to work with.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on April 16, 2010, 06:35:29 PM
Yellow stone is going to be detonated on June 10, 2010. Oh dear a national disaster. My what shall we do? Uncle Sam will help us, right? Never let a good commotion go unused... Muhahahah!
@giantkiller
Where did you learn this?  I couldn't GOOGLize anything intelligent regarding this statement.
BTW:
I significant earthquake hit that part of the country Thurs., the 15th, with a epicenter about 70 miles NE of Salt Lake City.
Is this important?

Additional aside:
I notice since this thread was started, the percentage of people voting on the poll has remained about 49-53% for the economy worsening in the future.  Consistently.

--Lee
Title: I REALLY can see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on April 20, 2010, 10:35:08 PM
...IF the Icelandic volcano(Ejylafjallajokull = ay-yah-FYAH'-plah-yer-kul-duhl) continues erupting...

Have a look at these:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100420/ap_on_bi_ge/eu_world_without_planes

http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/04/19/threat-new-larger-icelandic-eruption-looms/


And that's not all:
If Katla Volcano, near the one above, also erupts, that'll be 5-10 times the ash in the air.  No jet/turboprop flights for up to a year or two?

None of the world's financial/political/industrial economies can stand that.  There will probably be a collapse if this eruption continues.
I just don't know when, though.
Not even the scientists know, either.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on April 21, 2010, 06:12:37 PM
I got my first batch of solar (25 plus)cells.I have about 55 more solar cells coming.I got two batches at 99cents each plus S&H.Two more batches at $7.50 each plus S&H.A total of 90 solar cells.There is a lot of dust in my first batch of solar cells.I asked the shipper to use toilet paper between cells.It could reduce breakage.Three more batches are on their way to me.
triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: X00013 on April 22, 2010, 07:10:33 AM
if u want use this link for whatever http://quake.usgs.gov/  then use the google earth plug un or wait for the ap (gov controlled news to report it)and world news to lie to you three days later and hey why not listen to somthing you wont and cant find in your daily dose of whatever  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wX_ThT1jpas&feature=related
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on April 23, 2010, 12:56:00 AM
if u want use this link for whatever http://quake.usgs.gov/ ...
That reminds me:  a 2.0 quake hit offshore of southern Calif. a few days ago.  These are coming closer and closer.

Also, that volcano in Iceland(Eyjafjallajokull) is unpredictablely worrying.  Katla Volcano lies 12 miles away and if it erupts:  Look out!

Even local Icelanders living near it are scared.  Planes in the Eastern Hemisphere may not fly at all for up to two years if it erupts.  That would be dire, to put it mildly.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on April 27, 2010, 06:13:08 PM
I thought the following website might be useful to someone trying to go solar but want to buy their panels assembled already.http://sunelec.com/
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on April 27, 2010, 06:16:20 PM
It seems to be lowcost enough.http://sunelec.com/
Title: Re: I REALLY can see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on April 28, 2010, 05:34:05 PM
quote author=the_big_m_in_ok said:
Quote
If Katla Volcano, near the one above(12 miles), also erupts, that'll be about 10 times the ash in the air.  No jet/turboprop flights for up to a year or two?

None of the world's financial/political/industrial economies can stand that.  There will probably be a collapse if this eruption continues.
I just don't know when, though.
Not ever the scientists know, either.
Well, neither I nor the scientists knew, did we?  Katla should be erupting now, but looks like it won't, after all. 

The world lucked out on that one, but there's something else that probably won't go away:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/apr/27/greece-credit-rating-downgraded

Also,

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100428/ap_on_bi_ge/eu_greece_financial_crisis

REEDIT:
Just off the wires:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100428/ap_on_bi_ge/eu_europe_financial_crisis
(This is getting worse and worse!)

This problem won't go away until the affected eurozone gov'ts cut spending and stop borrowing.  All they're doing is putting off the inevitable collapse.  And, if they cut services, there'll be social unrest in Greece, for sure, and possibly Portugal and Spain as well.  That could drag down other eurozone countries and us after that.

What to do?

For my part, I'm buying more cans of food this month and plastic containers of water to store in my apartment.  I can still eat and drink something if the power goes out.

After that, if it happens, I'll I can do is wait.

--Lee













Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: jadaro2600 on May 01, 2010, 10:43:08 PM


REEDIT:
Just off the wires:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100428/ap_on_bi_ge/eu_europe_financial_crisis
(This is getting worse and worse!)

This problem won't go away until the affected eurozone gov'ts cut spending and stop borrowing.  All they're doing is putting off the inevitable collapse.  And, if they cut services, there'll be social unrest in Greece, for sure, and possibly Portugal and Spain as well.  That could drag down other eurozone countries and us after that.

What to do?

For my part, I'm buying more cans of food this month and plastic containers of water to store in my apartment.  I can still eat and drink something if the power goes out.

After that, if it happens, I'll I can do is wait.

--Lee

And just WHO are all these countries borrowing from? ,,if it's not the US, then who is the Lender?
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on May 02, 2010, 01:11:38 AM
And just WHO are all these countries borrowing from? ,,if it's not the US, then who is the Lender?
Germany and/or the European Central Bank, for two:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/apr/14/greek-crisis-germany-financial-markets

And this:
http://baselinescenario.com/2010/03/01/an-underfunded-program-for-greece/

This one says there's more than one source of Greece's problems:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8508136.stm

The problem has been avoided for so long, that digging themselves out of the deep pit they're in will possibly take a miracle to pass for the Greeks.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on May 02, 2010, 06:17:33 AM
Maybe this could help some people get new jobs?
http://www.bootsontheroof.com/sem16/?source=google_content&gclid=CMPn4M_IsqECFQUhDQodCBjNBA
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on May 02, 2010, 06:29:48 AM
to big M,I have been buying extra cans of food too,Oatmeal and grits.Cornmeal and flour,And cooking oil.Most canned foods will last for years.Cranberry sauce will not.Only about 6 months for cranberry sauce.It will eat through a can in a year.I recently ate a couple of cans of turnip greens that I had at least 5 years with no ill effects.Still tasty.I bought lots of canned fish too.You just fill up your shelves now with 2 or 3 extra cans each time you go to the store.Or lots of oatmeal if you are just starting out with stocking up(20lbs per person per year).I have about two months of food on hand now.I live near lakes(water).Water can always be boiled.I try to buy canned goods on sale.Have lots of canned beans too.And dry beans and brown rice.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on May 02, 2010, 06:33:40 AM
I now have about 120 plus solar cells on hand.I'm bidding on more.I'm going to try to put together a panel soon.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on May 03, 2010, 06:24:22 PM
@triffid
I was going to say, with respect to your last Reply, solar panels might be a guaranteed power generator, and a good one, even if it is a little expensive.

But since I live in an apartment, all I can do is electronic experimentation (on free energy, of course) when I have the free time and budget the money from local parts suppliers.

The canned food idea is great.  I'm buying 5-liter water containers as well.  Tip for city dwellers like me:  If and when the power fails, fill your bathtub(s) and bail water to your toilet.  Buy pine soap as an antiseptic to help reduce the smell.

LATER REEDIT:
@triffid
Why not try one of these solar cell trickle battery chargers?
Patent #5,276,393
          #4,871,959
          #4,274,044

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on May 05, 2010, 03:27:23 AM
Big o, your wrong, gold had value, us dollar notes could no longer be changed for gold
Well, that was in the Great Depression.  Yeah, you're correct in that point alone.
However, this time there's wayyyyyyyy! more money involved and people are getting really pissed about the way Big Money on Wall Street handled the whole, overall scenario for the last years of the bubble economy.

Then there the experience of American GI's in postwar Europe and Japan.  Nobody can eat a gold bar.  But cans of food and wrapped candy are actually something edible.  Soap can make the body humanly livable on the outside (skin) as long as there's enough water to wash with.

That's my main point when the economy finally implodes and collapses.


And then what about the Gulf Coast!

People there are scared to death that there'll be no money when 30-35% of the marine food sources may die off if BP doesn't move fast enough or fails in effective use of the concrete funnels they're building to gather the oil to the surface.  And the delicate Delta marshes are just as threatened.  Add this to the other problems getting worse.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: infringer on May 05, 2010, 03:56:23 AM
hehe you have to be kidding me folks our industry is thriving there is tons of work out there don't buy into the BS if one of you is destitute I could get you a job right now most likely bottom line...

We have already turned off the highway to hell believe it ... More and more things just keep looking up sit there and wait for your faith to be restored in this great nation or be part of the change it is in our hands the smallest things can make you or break you at any given time risk is something you take everyday without knowing. And if I were a betting man and I kinda am I would steak money on it too many rich people would not allow anything to happen to our great nation as they would stand to lose way too much!
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: innovation_station on May 05, 2010, 04:09:39 AM
The U.S. population is on a train wreck with outnumbering the Social Security System.  Never let a good commotion go unused... Muhahahah!

lol  good god gk !

figures you would say something like that .. lmfao

ist
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on May 05, 2010, 04:36:59 AM
...And if I were a betting man and I kinda am I would steak money on it too many rich people would not allow anything to happen to our great nation as they would stand to lose way too much!
Yeah, they wouldn't be happy, would they...but then what happened to the Mayan empire of Central America?
The Roman Empire?  The Byzantine Empire?  More than one Egyptian Dynasty?  More than one Chinese Dynasty?  Where are they now?
And let's not forget ancient Jericho.  Right now it's a pile of dirt mixed in with various ruins of past cities that failed for one reason or another---and that goes for Troy as well.

Civilized societies don't last, do they?  They arrive gradually or suddenly and leave similarly.  I just assert that this one right now is headed toward the Niagara Falls of economic disaster.

Take a look at this:
http://www.religion-place.info/21631/civilization-and-its-importance.html

I have a hunch:  Hunter/gatherer cultures can put up with natural disasters and still have enough people surviving to restart the culture from the begging.  The article above, I believe, implies the the ruling elite religionists and royal political noncontributing members of society place such a great strain on available resources that the civilized societies collapse, as the article's author above states or implies.
I point to the Congress and Federal Government and rest my case.  As I said before, "it's only a matter of time."  It's coming.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on May 05, 2010, 12:03:55 PM
Just when you thought you only had the US government to worry about.A story comes along to worry you even more.The following site tells what would happen if Iran or some other rouge nation decides to explode a nuclear bomb 300 miles up over the USA and in the center of the nation and what would result from the following EMP.
http://www.onesecondafter.com/
cars before 1965 could be made to run
And a faraday cage might protect your personal computer but a lot of people would perish in the resulting chaos
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on May 05, 2010, 12:11:15 PM
I have seen a faraday cage at a university in a physics dept.Its basically a grounded metal box.The one I saw I could walk into and it was like a screened off porch.The screens were heavier than normal wire screen.It had airholes in it.A metal storage building that is grounded and fairly heavy sheet metal completely enclosed could offer some protection against an EMP burst.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on May 05, 2010, 12:22:23 PM
I'm the proud owner of about 325 solar cells.And sometime in the next few months I will put together one panel using whatever wood or plastic or cardboard I can get my hands on.If I build one using cardboard it will stay inside the house like in a window.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: innovation_station on May 05, 2010, 01:47:31 PM
I'm the proud owner of about 325 solar cells.And sometime in the next few months I will put together one panel using whatever wood or plastic or cardboard I can get my hands on.If I build one using cardboard it will stay inside the house like in a window.triffid

i sure hope you got a good deal on them ...

i have a few like 10 or so .. they are nice but there cheep something like 1 will charge a BOOST CAP in less than a full day as i understand ! there 2 by 2"

2 bucks each i got them from gadget ..  i imagine he gets them MUCH cheeper ... 

ist
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on May 06, 2010, 12:41:34 AM
Just when you thought you only had the US government to worry about.A story comes along to worry you even more.The following site tells what would happen if Iran or some other rouge nation decides to explode a nuclear bomb 300 miles up over the USA and in the center of the nation and what would result from the following EMP.
http://www.onesecondafter.com/
cars before 1965 could be made to run
And a faraday cage might protect your personal computer but a lot of people would perish in the resulting chaos
Exploding a rocket overhead would actually require a rocket.  Do they even need that?
They could go to a Muslim country in North Africa---let's assume they have the compliance of the national Gov't of that country.

Then they build a tunnel a few hundred feet deep from the shore toward the continental the shelf as they follow the underwater sloping drop-off.  When they're satisfied with the distance, they place an atomic bomb at the end of the tunnel and detonate it.  The resulting tsunami inundates Christian countries to the north in Europe.  Terrorism!!!

However, this has to be as big a bomb as possible, ans then using it would destroy their country as well as causing a tsunami.  But they like suicide bombs, anyway, right?  This would probably a last-ditch scenario for them.

All this is hypothetical.  I really don't hope it comes to that.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: infringer on May 06, 2010, 05:50:55 AM
We need to quit giving such simple evil minds such good ideas with going public about these statements... It is our wit which may lead to our own demise the good folks give men with little power great power by making comments about certain things to do with our inner workings ... Many of these evil people do not have half of a brain to come up with ideas of there own hell I don't know how many movies it took before there was a plane hijacking like the one in 9/11 ... Creativity falls out of reach of the most evil it is someone else who contributes to there thoughts.

Triffid sweet deal on the Solar Cells might I ask you to find someone around just wanting to get rid of old single pane glass windows you can easily seal them and refurbish them to make them weather proof you will get no where near the power in a window then you could get outside... Look at my solar panel for an idea as a word of caution never use hot glue on anything in the sun it will melt and run off...

I will be building a new panel myself in the near future... This time using 6x6 cells hopefully this thing will give me something a little more exciting then 70 - 120watts ;)

I have a wind idea that has really never been attempted as well that I need to work on and the cool thing is I have never once seen the concept used in power generation but I am sure it could be used other ways as well! but I need to finish a PMA with bearing issues before I forge on to that project...

Everything requires time it seems and with a full time job it is nearly impossible to use enough of the off time to get fun projects done when you are pushed by other things like mere survival and rest needed to preform your full time job.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on May 06, 2010, 06:53:51 PM
We need to quit giving such simple evil minds such good ideas with going public about these statements...
That wasn't classified information that I'm aware of...and... I didn't say everything on my mind to make it even simpler.  I don't think they're up to the engineering par of Ted Kaczyinski, but they do go out of their way to do the most with what they have.  They merely try to impose their religious will on others like Kaczyinski did with his personal agenda.
I have a Careerbuilder resume which isn't publically available!! that addresses some of the concerns you do with respect to the Muslim Jihad-is.  No exceptions.  I can say more, but I won't.  Don't ask.  "No further comment" on that subject.
Quote
I have a wind idea that has really never been attempted as well that I need to work on and the cool thing is I have never once seen the concept used in power generation but I am sure it could be used other ways as well! but I need to finish a PMA with bearing issues before I forge on to that project...
You can try to apply for a patent, but if it's deemed classifiable by the CIA, NSA, or maybe even Homeland Security, no one will ever see it.  Since when is that a patent?  It isn't.  I applied for a patent once and I was in the Air Force, so I know something about security, having dealt with it personally.

--Lee
Title: This Greek crisis appears to be scaring some people in other countries...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on May 07, 2010, 01:54:23 AM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36998648/ns/business-stocks_and_economy/

There was no unusual or bad news to cause this sudden drop and recovery, as far as traders and analysts could see.

The Greeks need to get their act together financially, or this problem will be dragged out across the economic landscape for all to see and become ever more apprehensive about.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on May 07, 2010, 05:14:00 AM
I don't want to be all gloom and doom.I found some positive comments on homeschooling.http://www.amazon.com/tag/education/forum/ref=cm_cd_dp_rft_tft_tp?_encoding=UTF8&cdForum=Fx2YA0LJ92ZIFKB&cdThread=Tx1ONJ9QKAI6F63
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on May 07, 2010, 05:23:24 AM
Those who would try to make a bomb have to be real good at it without blowing themselves up.Take the guy who tried to blow up the suv in times square.He had it wired properly and placed between two buildings to magify the blast but we got lucky and about 4 or 5 things worked against him.Things which I won't go into detail here.I want us to stay lucky.Still it shows his intent.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on May 07, 2010, 05:44:36 AM
I got a bunch of solar cells,enough for about 10 panels for about $600 off of ebay.Maybe half of that was for P&H.The cheapest batch I bought was about .99 cents plus $4.95 for P&H for about 25 plus cells.I want to do away with the P&H.
I am taking a break away from buying solar cells for a while.Sometime after June 15 th I will start up again.My goal is to get enough for about 50 panels by the end of this year.I can salvage most of the materials to make the rest of the solar panels including the diodes.I had a solar corner in my last house and kept the solar panels sitting in the windows for eight years.I was making 80 watts an hour.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on May 07, 2010, 05:22:39 PM
triffid said:
Quote
I had a solar corner in my last house and kept the solar panels sitting in the windows for eight years.I was making 80 watts an hour.triffid
The question I have is:
What would the local power company think of your setting the positive example by setting up a photovoltaic system to spite them, in a potentially politically incorrect way, even though they would knew it was legal?
Politics is politics.  The might consider you a thorn in their side if they were afraid you might be able to show others how to set up more systems.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on May 11, 2010, 01:20:13 AM
I got a bunch of solar cells,enough for about 10 panels for about $600 off of ebay.Maybe half of that was for P&H.The cheapest batch I bought was about .99 cents plus $4.95 for P&H for about 25 plus cells.I want to do away with the P&H.
@triffid
What do you think of this?  Are you mechanically inclined?
http://www.docstoc.com/docs/9639447/INVERTER-PLANS/

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on May 12, 2010, 05:17:12 AM
I am more inclined towards electronics and chemistry.But my dad used to fix tvs and radios for a living.He had an electronics workshop in his basement in St.Louis,mo. After he retired he fixed tvs until the money dried up in it.When it became cheaper to buy a new one than fix the old one(about the 1980's).In the early 1950's he wired together radios for American Airlines.So people's lives depended on his radio skills.I would see him fix radios and tvs in the home,often at the kitchen table.So far I can solder some,read a diagram.As a result I can fix a lot of small appliances.I can replace fuses in microwaves.
I fixed a popcorn popper in college that someone had thrown out.So I don't fix tv's but I have worked on computers.Mostly the older ones.I don't fix cars but I have a brother who does.He can rebuild an engine.I am not that mechanically inclined.I like building sheds.I have built two so far.
I'm considering building a third one.My dad never learned how to work on computers.He never had the internet in his home.He died in 2009 at the age of 86.When he was in his mid-70s he closed up his electronics workshop in the basement.Said he was getting too old.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on May 12, 2010, 05:19:19 AM
Heres a link to some guy who claims he doesn't eat or drink for the last 70 years.
http://news.nationalpost.com/2010/05/10/indian-man-survives-without-food-and-water-baffles-doctors/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+C2C-InTheNews+%28Feed+-+Coast+to+Coast+-+In+the+News%29
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on May 12, 2010, 05:27:27 AM
To big m,I tried to access your diagram.But the link failed.I didn't use an inverter most of the time.I found it simpler to use 12 volts all the way keeping in mind that any wire connections over 20 feet long would result in unacceptable energy losses.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: hansvonlieven on May 12, 2010, 09:14:07 AM
Therese Neumann of Konnersreuth (Germany) did not eat or drink for 40 years. Documented.

Wikipedia says:
From the years of 1922 until her death in 1962, Therese Neumann  apparently consumed no food other than The Holy  Eucharist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eucharist), and claimed to have drunk no water from 1926 until her  death. [8] In July 1927 a medical doctor and four Franciscan nurses kept a watch  on her 24 hours a day for a two-week period. They confirmed that she  had consumed nothing except for one consecrated sacred Host (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Host_%28Holy_Communion%29) a day,  and had suffered no ill effects, loss of weight, or dehydration.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on May 12, 2010, 06:30:41 PM
To big m,I tried to access your diagram.But A failed.
I just went back to the post in question and it loaded and ran as usual.  I've also come across the same problem with other users.  It works for me and not them.  No good reason why.
It was a hosting site with the retail inverter report from Creative Science uploaded to the server's hard drive.  Creative Science is always looking for a profit, so I don't know why Creative Science hasn't complained about it.
Quote
I didn't use an inverter most of the time.I found it simpler to use 12 volts all the way keeping in mind that any wire connections over 20 feet long would result in unacceptable energy losses.triffid
Right, that's true.  Very heavy wire/cable is required for lengthy runs.  Photovoltaic systems are a prime example.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on May 12, 2010, 08:02:25 PM
@triffid
With respect to your Reply #514:

My dad was an engineer who designed electronic instruments as part of his job function in the defense aerospace industry.  I did the same thing as you by looking over his shoulder when I was a teenager as he worked.  He retired and gave up that activity, except as a hobby, until he passed away recently.

We do have more in common.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on May 12, 2010, 08:13:09 PM
Therese Neumann of Konnersreuth (Germany) did not eat or drink for 40 years. Documented.
@triffid
When I was a teenager in Southern Calif., a local rock-n-roll (KRLA, I think) radio station would regularly air documentary broadcasts involving New Age subjects.
One of these subjects had to do with the spiritual practice of raising the vibrations of the body to such a high level that the initiate stopped eating in public, for sure.  They may have been living off of spiritual 'prana' rather food eaten by mouth.  Prana is believed by the Hindus to sustain life.

--Lee
Title: I see an economic diasater coming... with more telling signs...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on May 14, 2010, 02:46:03 AM
Recent Internet article:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37136518/ns/us_news-life/

More states like NV, CA and FL may resort to this tactic.  If they do the right thing and own up to their responsibility to cut costs, their residents will be more than a little unhappy, to make a staggering understatement.

As I said before, "There's no good answer" to this recessionary crisis.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on May 20, 2010, 03:01:00 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMQqnaWUA98&feature=related.I hope to build one of these soon.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on May 20, 2010, 03:02:53 AM
To big M,Our dads rocked!!!I Triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on May 20, 2010, 03:09:40 AM
To big M,that article about Ill may be the wave of the future.I hope its just the one state not paying its bills at all.I know that calif used IOU's.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on May 20, 2010, 08:46:53 PM
To big M,Our dads rocked!!!I Triffid
Riiiiiight!  That's why I know what I know about aerospace and transistor electronics/R&D electronic engineering.  That's what my Dad did.  It follows.
Quote
To big M,that article about Ill may be the wave of the future.I hope its just the one state not paying its bills at all.I know that calif used IOU's.triffid
I, (unfortunately) anticipate Illinois' actions are a prelude for the future.  Look at Greece.  The world money/commodity markets are jittery because they may realize Greece merely put off the inevitable by borrowing more money from the EU Central Bank and the Germans.  The USA is heavily exposed to the EU debt borrowing crisis.  A certain American conservative analyst (Glenn Beck) indicates Greece's problems are coming here in the future.  What happens there, will happen here, eventually.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: X00013 on May 21, 2010, 02:18:05 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QM-mfEMssy8
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: X00013 on May 21, 2010, 02:26:04 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsKmUoDyQEU
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on May 21, 2010, 05:48:59 PM
big m,I got to see those inverter plans because I used a different computer.I think a mechanical inverter is novel.I once made an interrupter which used a flashlight battery for power.I sent the interrupted current through a step up transformer and shocked myself several times that day.I guess the current is not squarewaved but close to it and messy.Your inverter reminded me of that device I made a long time ago.I used air as the medium but adding a capacitor to the points would have cleaned up the waveform.And less sparking would result.I used junk to make it so it didn't last too long.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on May 21, 2010, 10:17:46 PM
big m,I got to see those inverter plans because I used a different computer.
Yeah, I borrow computers and they have .PDF compliers on the hard drive as a public service to free customers.  I download lots of wiring diagrams that way.
Quote
I think a mechanical inverter is novel.I once made an interrupter which used a flashlight battery for power.I sent the interrupted current through a step up transformer and shocked myself several times that day.I guess the current is not squarewaved but close to it and messy.
Here's hartiberlin's rendering:

http://overunity.com/3111/mehmets-backemf-pulser-circuit/nbsp// ,  Reply #5

This should last until the relay points wear out.  However, he needs to wire the relay contacts through the coil so the current in the coil energizes it, thus breaking the circuit until the spring reconnects the contacts to complete the circuit again as a chattering 'square wave' response with a frequency of, say, 15-25 Hz.
Quote
Your inverter reminded me of that device I made a long time ago.I used air as the medium but adding a capacitor to the points would have cleaned up the waveform.And less sparking would result.I used junk to make it so it didn't last too long.triffid
I'll try to remember that about the capacitor.  I don't have a 'scope, so I'll have to take your word for it.  A diode between the relay and BEMF coil would take some voltage off the relay contacts.  They'd last longer, especially at relatively high voltage on the batterie(s).

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on May 21, 2010, 10:56:51 PM
This guy made a boat out of cardboard .His method could be used to make a cardboard palace if one wanted it.So I hope to make at least one solar panel out of cardboard using some of these methods.triffid
http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-build-a-cardboard-kayak-for-less-than-40/
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Master_T on May 22, 2010, 08:52:07 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eb1n1X0Oqdw
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on May 23, 2010, 02:03:49 AM
This guy made a boat out of cardboard .His method could be used to make a cardboard palace if one wanted it.So I hope to make at least one solar panel out of cardboard using some of these methods.triffid
http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-build-a-cardboard-kayak-for-less-than-40/
Be careful for rain, triffid.  I never hears of water repellent cardboard.
Wait, maybe I spoke too soon?

http://www.pat2pdf.org/patents/pat6794016.pdf

It might work after all, as long as way too much water doesn't flood your solar panel.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on May 25, 2010, 04:20:24 AM
Here's hartiberlin's rendering:

http://overunity.com/3111/mehmets-backemf-pulser-circuit/nbsp// ,  Reply #5
Here are a couple of more:

http://overunity.com/6734/real-ou-effect-to-share-with-everyone/nbsp// ,  Reply #13 has the best drawing
http://overunity.com/6123/joule-thief/285/nbsp// ,  Reply #285, top of page

(These make good starter systems, to be expanded and improved upon, for after the economy collapses.)

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on May 25, 2010, 03:14:22 PM
I tend to set my solar panels inside the house in the window.So hopefully the house will stay dry.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on May 25, 2010, 10:03:10 PM
I tend to set my solar panels inside the house in the window.So hopefully the house will stay dry.
I see what you mean.  No rain to get them wet.  However, you're limited on the amount of power you can generate.  Then, again, no one can complain about the unsightly roof installations, either.

I live San Francisco, so overcast fog, even downtown, is a problem---and I have only one window in my apartment.
You're doing pretty well on you own with what you have.

NEWS UPDATE:
Look out for a double-dip recession if the Gulf Coast oil spill throws many people out of work and/or the financial problems in the eurozone countries get worse.  Spain is being looked at in a contagious money crisis that will affect us as well If (drastic!!!) services or monetary cutbacks aren't enacted immediately.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: X00013 on May 27, 2010, 04:39:04 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3e6QJMmCxQ&playnext_from=TL&videos=y5v3qvogJBE
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on May 27, 2010, 05:07:19 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3e6QJMmCxQ&playnext_from=TL&videos=y5v3qvogJBE
@x00013
The computer room I was in didn't allow sound being played over the computer's speaker, but I agree with the premise of what I saw in the video.  "Get ready for the END," would be a good subtitled caption.  You have a point.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: X00013 on May 28, 2010, 03:11:19 AM
maybe try the channel http://www.youtube.com/user/SACRAMANIACSmc
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on June 02, 2010, 11:39:05 PM
the_big_m_in_ok said:
Quote
Here are a couple of more:
http://overunity.com/6734/real-ou-effect-to-share-with-everyone/nbsp// ,  Reply #13 has the best drawing
http://overunity.com/6123/joule-thief/285/nbsp// ,  Reply #285, top of page
(These make good starter systems, to be expanded and improved upon, for after the economy collapses.)
@Cap-Z-ro
These drawings are from energetic forum, can be modified for a relay, I think:

http://energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/2242-water-sparkplug.html   Replies #'s  2 & 12

(For reference as a DIY inverter, sort of)

REEDIT:
Also, Stefan's Shock Charging System:

http://www.intalek.com/Papers/Handout3.pdf  ,  pg. 21 of the manuscript
(NOTE: The secondary wires are reversed, thus making the coil opposite in direction of windings)

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming... and this could hasten it...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on June 03, 2010, 11:48:20 PM
@all
Take a look at this:

http://blogs.abcnews.com/scienceandsociety/2010/06/gulf-oil-spill-where-the-slick-may-go.html

After 75-85 days or so, the SHTF.  New England all the way to Maine gets it bad by 4 months, 1 1/2 weeks (132 days).  This could contribute to a seafood industry collapse costing a whole lot of money and jobs.  The news is full of dire news elsewhere around the world as well.  Not to mention the possibility of a depression or outright economic collapse.

I.  Hope.  Not.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: saikron1 on June 04, 2010, 06:53:21 AM
actually, it is depend on USA how to survive. your ancestor give you a lot of technology to solve coming problem. it is right time to use it. even you guyz can make it in low cost device. why not? forget about oil and gas.... now it is the time to use tesla tech or magnetic energy by own...
china is now becoming richest country in the world... but they still dun have much on technology and majority the ppl there not really educated.
i don't why, USA can't make it. USA keep a lot of technology and a lot of talented people. majority educated. why economy still going down. 
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: WilbyInebriated on June 04, 2010, 11:42:30 PM
china has more honor students than america has students, so does india... do the math, their coming dominance is inevitable.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on June 04, 2010, 11:42:35 PM
actually, it is depend on USA how to survive. your ancestor give you a lot of technology to solve coming problem. it is right time to use it. even you guyz can make it in low cost device. why not? ...
Our "elected" leaders, that's why not.  They suppress innovation in engineering and buy up patents so the inventor(s) can't make any money.  They, the leaders, want the money first! And! they want as much as possible!!!!  The politicians don't really represent the people who "elect" them, they represent their own agenda first.
Quote
... forget about oil and gas.... now it is the time to use tesla tech or magnetic energy by own...
Good, right.  I agree with you.  But, whoever tries can be told by Vested Interests to sit down and shut up.  Whoever doesn't comply, can meet with an unfortunate "accident".  Free energy should be part of the answer, yes.  The politics has to change to something better, though.
Quote
...china is now becoming richest country in the world... but they still dun have much on technology and majority the ppl there not really educated.
Perfect point to what I was saying.  Many world leaders are holding their countrymen hostage to the their own whims, in spite of what's in the best interest of their countries population's wishes.  This goes for China, as well.  Stupid, greedy Communists!!!
Quote
i don't why, USA can't make it. USA keep a lot of technology and a lot of talented people. majority educated. why economy still going down.
Even some of the reason is the ordinary people's fault, but not all.  Everyone wants to have an easy, comfortable life.  However, being duped (lied to, that is) by greedy businessmen(AIG/Enron/ BP!!!  >:(   ::)   >:(   ::)   :'(   :'(   :'(    ) is also partly the people's fault.  People want it for less money, or free, if possible.  It's never that easy.  It's hardly ever free.



In closing, you have a point in observation, yes, I see.  I know there are religious references stating that no one is honest, and that's the source of the problem.  As long as people have been alive.  Human nature.

TechStuf!
I already know the religious references whereof I speak.  No need for you to remind everyone.  The average reader can look them up on GOOGLE or I'll let Cap-Z-ro relate them in a post if he wants.  This is his forum and he's the Moderator.  He can do what he wants here.

I think I've tried to answer your questions, though, saikron1.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on June 05, 2010, 01:37:15 AM
china has more honor students than america has students, so does india... do the math, their coming dominance is inevitable.
Communism, as practiced today, doesn't work because of greed.  You can't spend someone else's money; it always runs out.
I know of only one exception:  An Israeli kibbutz.  And only because it's a small scale operation in terms of money.

Additionally, AIDS is going to take a heavy toll on the Chinese population in a generation or two.  Their Govt is avoiding the problem, to their detriment.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: WilbyInebriated on June 05, 2010, 02:06:56 AM
Communism, as practiced today, doesn't work because of greed.  You can't spend someone else's money; it always runs out.
I know of only one exception:  An Israeli kibbutz.  And only because it's a small scale operation in terms of money.

Additionally, AIDS is going to take a heavy toll on the Chinese population in a generation or two.  Their Govt is avoiding the problem, to their detriment.

--Lee
communism is irrelevant. democracy, as practiced today, doesn't work either... because of greed.
it doesn't matter if the chinese are communist, democratic, fascist or any other form, it is simple math...

aids? ::) why don't you try a cogent argument?
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: saikron1 on June 05, 2010, 02:25:52 AM
anyway, this is facts. this country getting stronger now.... we can feel it economy crisis everywhere. i agree with you, china is greedy but they are good in calculating. When they got the money, they can do anything. i don't like china too... they are greedy and over react.
hoping your country leader manage to released something new. American scientist did really good. i really admit and admire their technology. but this technology not using it. really sad to hear this. hoping your government know to appreciate this scientist and change the world. 
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on June 08, 2010, 10:29:21 PM
communism is irrelevant. democracy, as practiced today, doesn't work either... because of greed.
it doesn't matter if the chinese are communist, democratic, fascist or any other form, it is simple math...
I know all this.
But, when the Chinese don't have any money like everyone else after the economic collapse, they'll act like all other communist states and impose their will militarily on others in their vicinity, regardless of the consequences.  The collapse will probably bring out the worst in people.  Look at movie, The Road, and see what can happen.  Several things can bring about collapse, and it can happen here or anywhere.  Why?  When people have no money, food, water, and warm winter shelter, they often become desperate like in various hotspots around the world.  Africa, the Middle East, Central America with floods and volcanos, etc.

Math?  Math has nothing to do with it, with the possible exception that the Chinese have the biggest population and biggest army in the world.  Those are big numbers, probably to be found on the Internet for those who look.
Is the paragraph above cogent, by that, I mean:  Relevant and strongly pointed out?
Quote
aids? ::) why don't you try a cogent argument?
I intended to indicate AIDS was a long term---very serious---problem, but an absolute fact that can cause, even by itself, an eventual collapse in 20-50 years if nothing else changes.  If not enough people are around to maintain a cultural society, there'll be no cultural society to exist.

There are some very serious problems becoming insurmountable in the future, regardless of what is attempted to solve those problems.  The European debt crisis in one example.  The Gulf oil spill fiasco is another.  America is traveling down the same road to the same result as Greece.  Is this cogent?

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Qwurky1 on June 09, 2010, 05:38:08 AM
What I find interesting about "democracy" (capitalism) is that it is based off of darwinism, which is basically ruthless and winner takes all.  True Communism, as Marx envisioned it, was rather naive and a pipe dream, because it assumes that humans have the ability to, as an entire planet/nation/town/neighborhood, give up the desire to possess a larger slice of the pie than anyone else.  Once anyone gains more than the others, that enables them to get still more... yada yada money is evil, blah blah.  Do any of you think humans will ever evolve to the point where we can actually want to share equally with each other?  I like to think we have the seed of selfessness and human unity within us, which is what Tesla tried to "spark" within us (sorry) with his devices designed to equalize social classes and conserve resources for the future, but for some reason nice guys always do seem to finish last.  Perhaps it's because the nice guys never expect to get jumped in the alley on the way to reinvent the world the way it should be.  Personally, if I were a sentient organism that had happened across this galactic backwater, I'd look at the human race as a life form that once had potential but degraded into a horrible disease, and maybe even set up exterminators to make sure we didn't spread out of this solar system and infect the rest of the universe.  blah blah speech over.  Otherwise we will have the "martians" working in sweatshops to make our cheap Nikes (joking) or try to nuke them because they "ain't natural" and are "abominations to god"  Power to the People, Viva Tesla!!
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: WilbyInebriated on June 09, 2010, 01:39:40 PM
I know all this.
and yet you still chose to post an irrelevant argument. ::)
But, when the Chinese don't have any money like everyone else after the economic collapse, they'll act like all other communist states and impose their will militarily on others in their vicinity, regardless of the consequences.  The collapse will probably bring out the worst in people.  Look at movie, The Road, and see what can happen.  Several things can bring about collapse, and it can happen here or anywhere.  Why?  When people have no money, food, water, and warm winter shelter, they often become desperate like in various hotspots around the world.  Africa, the Middle East, Central America with floods and volcanos, etc.
your argument in this paragraph is a red herring. how is any of that relevant to the question of the level of chinese education?

lee, you are obviously confused here. let us recap...
saikron1 said:
china is now becoming richest country in the world... but they still dun have much on technology and majority the ppl there not really educated.
to which i replied:
china has more honor students than america has students, so does india... do the math, their coming dominance is inevitable.
that is a cogent argument... relative and strongly pointed out.

you then hopped on board with your irrelevant response to me:
Communism, as practiced today, doesn't work because of greed.  You can't spend someone else's money; it always runs out.
I know of only one exception:  An Israeli kibbutz.  And only because it's a small scale operation in terms of money.

Additionally, AIDS is going to take a heavy toll on the Chinese population in a generation or two.  Their Govt is avoiding the problem, to their detriment.

--Lee
this is not cogent and here is why. communism was never spoken of, by saikron1 or myself, and is irrelevant to the argument at hand. this is a logical fallacy, known as a red herring argument. you then followed that with another logical fallacy, your statement about aids. aids is also irrelevant (aids has nothing to do with how educated the chinese are) to the argument at hand.

Math?  Math has nothing to do with it
indeed. math has nothing to do with your logical fallacies... because they are irrelevant. lol.

I intended to indicate AIDS was a long term---very serious---problem, but an absolute fact that can cause, even by itself, an eventual collapse in 20-50 years if nothing else changes.  If not enough people are around to maintain a cultural society, there'll be no cultural society to exist.

There are some very serious problems becoming insurmountable in the future, regardless of what is attempted to solve those problems.  The European debt crisis in one example.  The Gulf oil spill fiasco is another.  America is traveling down the same road to the same result as Greece.  Is this cogent?

--Lee
aids is still irrelevant to the argument at hand...

the european debt crisis is another red herring... the gulf oil spill is another red herring... greece is another red herring... no! those aren't cogent! the argument at hand is about the chinese being educated... ::) here, this might help you out. http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/
until you refrain from this repeated use of logical fallacy i'm afraid i will have to refuse to respond to you.


@qwurky1
well said. i fear as long as this asinine ideal of nationalism exists so pervasively around the globe nothing will change. you end up with guys like big_m here hating the 'damn pinko commie bastards', those who espouse communism hating the 'capitalist pigs', those who espouse fascism hating 'everybody'... ad infinitum, ad nauseam, ad absurdum.
george carlin said it wonderfully:
Quote from: george carlin
"I frankly don't give a fuck how it all turns out in this country - or anywhere else, for that matter. I think the human game was up a long time ago (when the high priests and traders took over), and now we're just playing out the string. And that is, of course, precisely what I find so amusing: the slow circling of the drain by a once promising species, and the sappy, ever-more-desperate belief in this country that there is actually some sort of "American Dream," which has merely been msiplaced.

The decay and disintegration of this culture is astonishingly amusing if you are emotionally detached from it. I have always viewed it from a safe distance, knowing I don't belong; it doesn't include me, and it never has. No matter how you care to define it, I do not indentify with the local group. Planet, species, race, nation, state, religion, party, union, club, association, neighborhood, improvement committee;I have no interest in any of it. I love and treasure individuals as I meet them, I loathe and despise the groups they identify with and belong to.

So, if you read something in this book that sounds like advocacy of a particular political point of view, please reject the notion. My interest in "issues" is merely to point out how badly we're doing, not to suggest a way we might do better. Don't confuse me with those who cling to hope. I enjoy describing how things are, I have no interest in how they "ought to be." And I certainly have no interest in fixing them. I sincerely believe that if you think there's a solution, you're part of the problem. My motto: Fuck Hope!
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on June 09, 2010, 08:40:05 PM
I am back from my three week trip now but have no internet connection at home due to a massive virus infection(&*%$!!!).I attended my 40 year high school reunion while on my trip.I am sending this post from a public library.I hope to say more later.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on June 09, 2010, 08:51:53 PM
and yet you still chose to post an irrelevant argument. ::)your argument in this paragraph is a red herring. how is any of that relevant to the question of the level of chinese education?

lee, you are obviously confused here. let us recap...
saikron1 said:to which i replied:that is a cogent argument... relative and strongly pointed out.
Oh? Confused?
Did you read the title of this thread?  It's:  I see an economic disaster coming... (I realized I misspelled it in the title, but this software doesn't spell-check thread titles).
I implied, in my response to WilbyInebriated, that I thought, or intended to say, Chinese education was irrelevant to their survival.  It is irrelevant.
He said:
china has more honor students than america has students, so does india... do the math, their coming dominance is inevitable.
So what?  So they're educated.  An economic collapse would deprive the Communist government of their self-motivated, coveted power to impose their will on people, and they would lose a lot of 'face' in the process.  Being educated won't help them survive; there are just more of them (the Chinese) than us.  For now.  That can, and will, change.  I can tell you why, if you're interested.  Are you?
Quote
you then hopped on board with your irrelevant response to me:this is not cogent and here is why. communism was never spoken of, by saikron1 or myself, and is irrelevant to the argument at hand. this is a logical fallacy, known as a red herring argument. you then followed that with another logical fallacy, your statement about aids. aids is also irrelevant (aids has nothing to do with how educated the chinese are) to the argument at hand.
indeed. math has nothing to do with your logical fallacies... because they are irrelevant. lol.
aids is still irrelevant to the argument at hand...
Okay, I concede that point.  Communism is money-oriented and greedy, but that can be part of their undoing economically, which is the subject of this thread.  They're responsible for acting the way they do.
Quote
the european debt crisis is another red herring... the gulf oil spill is another red herring... greece is another red herring... no! those aren't cogent! the argument at hand is about the chinese being educated... ::)
Oh? Why are they 'red herrings'? The Europeans are digging themselves into a money hole too deep for them to get out of---and this country is exposed to part of that debt.  It's not a (huge!) amount of money, but trickle-down foreign trade amounts to more money than that and American jobs can be affected badly in the future.
The oil spill?  It's already costing a lot of money and more than 100,000 jobs are at stake.  Commercial fishing, recreational fishing, crab harvesting, oyster harvesting, crawfish harvesting, tourism, and then there's support industries.  For the Gulf States, is up to $60,000,000,000/yr.
The potential loss of this revenue isn't significant to these people?  I think it is.  The whole "Recovery" could go into a double-dip downturn.
Greece?  Not relevant?  Without confidence in the banking system, a monetary crisis could---and probably will---cause a collapse of the euro.  The Europeans are avoiding an economic problem which California is also in now.  Greece is the "Canary in the Coal Mine."  What happens to them will happen to America eventually.  They have grave problems they don't want to face yet---and some, or many, Californians think the same way.
Quote
here, this might help you out. http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/
until you refrain from this repeated use of logical fallacy i'm afraid i will have to refuse to respond to you.
This thread was intended to be an archive of those articles which I and others could support the reporting of the imminent collapse as a possible warning to anyone who wanted to read the references.
You don't have to respond if you choose not to.
Quote
george carlin said it wonderfully:
I think Carlin's attitude was accurate.  Hope really sucks, if that was what he meant.  It does and he's correct in that regard.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: WilbyInebriated on June 10, 2010, 01:49:54 AM
Oh? Confused?
yes. confused.
Did you read the title of this thread?  It's:  I see an economic disaster coming... (I realized I misspelled it in the title, but this software doesn't spell-check thread titles).
you really can't seem to grasp the difference between the 'argument at hand' and the thread title can you?
I implied, in my response to WilbyInebriated, that I thought, or intended to say, Chinese education was irrelevant to their survival.
you implied no such thing... in point of fact, you never once mentioned education in your first two irrelevant responses...

So what?  So they're educated. 
duh!! that was my one and only point to saikron1. my intentions were to correct saikron1's erroneous assumption. then you went off with your irrelevant postings... and now i'm wasting my time on your logical fallacies... ::)
An economic collapse would deprive the Communist government of their self-motivated, coveted power to impose their will on people, and they would lose a lot of 'face' in the process.  Being educated won't help them survive; there are just more of them (the Chinese) than us.  For now.  That can, and will, change.  I can tell you why, if you're interested.  Are you?
no. i'm not interested. here's why, IT'S IRRELEVANT TO THE ARGUMENT AT HAND!!
Communism is money-oriented and greedy, but that can be part of their undoing economically, which is the subject of this thread.
so what? it's not the subject of the argument at hand... you just don't get that do you?
Oh? Why are they 'red herrings'?
THEY ARE RED HERRINGS BECAUSE THEY ARE IRRELEVANT TO THE ARGUMENT AT HAND!!!
come on lee!!! why are you making me repeat myself??
go read that link i posted about logical fallacies. learn it. pay close attention to red herrings, strawman and appeal to popularity...


Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on June 10, 2010, 03:19:58 AM
you really can't seem to grasp the difference between the 'argument at hand' and the thread title can you? ... you implied no such thing... in point of fact, you never once mentioned education in your first two irrelevant responses... (You're right, I didn't--Lee)
...duh!! that was my one and only point to saikron1. my intentions were to correct saikron1's erroneous assumption. ...
saikron1's original post:
Quote
actually, it is depend on USA how to survive. your ancestor give you a lot of technology to solve coming problem. it is right time to use it. even you guyz can make it in low cost device. why not? forget about oil and gas.... now it is the time to use tesla tech or magnetic energy by own...
china is now becoming richest country in the world... but they still dun have much on technology and majority the ppl there not really educated.
i don't why, USA can't make it. USA keep a lot of technology and a lot of talented people. majority educated. why economy still going down.
That was Reply #541,
In #543, didn't I say anything about education, he did, but I did say the elected leaders wanted to be greedy by suppressing free energy inventions (my first response in Reply #543).  I didn't say anything about education. I agree with that.

Reply # 542,
Quote
china has more honor students than america has students, so does india... do the math, their coming dominance is inevitable.
You didn't go any further than that.  And you did bring education into the debate; you didn't explain your point.  Here's the article that may prove your point, right?
http://polidics.com/news/china-produces-more-honor-students-then-all-of-our-students-put-together.html

If you tried to steer saikron1 from his idea, you lost me on the point.
Would you mind explaining why China, having so many honor students, is so great?  Why are they becoming so dominant?  With education, you say?  Were you trying to dissuade saikron1 from from his point?  Your point being precisely what?
My original point, here and elsewhere on this thread, I believe: Their economy and ours are interconnected; we'll be equally screwed in the future.
They, the Chinese, can try and buy this country, but owning our debt won't be worth anything when that debt become unsustainable.  Their government has the same problem ours has: Politics, and that was also part of my point.

I tried to say education was irrelevant compared to political stupidity with respect to education, after you and saikron1 brought education up.

Time is short on this borrowed computer. Got to go.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: WilbyInebriated on June 10, 2010, 03:47:22 AM
And you did bring education into the debate; you didn't explain your point.
NO I DID NOT. quit making shit up. the record clearly shows saikron1 brought education into the debate. i did explain my point...
saikron1 said:   "china is now becoming richest country in the world... but they still dun have much on technology and majority the ppl there not really educated."

to which i replied:   "china has more honor students than america has students, so does india... do the math, their coming dominance is inevitable."

it is obvious to anyone using their brain that the 'argument at hand' (between saikron1 and myself) is about the level of chinese education REGARDLESS OF THE THREAD TOPIC... yet you go off on repeated diatribes about everything BUT education... and you still don't understand why your responses are irrelevant. ::)

If you tried to steer saikron1 from his idea, you lost me on the point.
you were lost before you started your first reply to me... that much is evident from your irrelevant responses.

Would you mind explaining why China, having so many honor students, is so great?
again the point of the argument at hand goes over your head. ::)
having many honor students may or may not make china great, but that is irrelevant, because the argument was not about them being 'great'...
for the love of zeus lee!!! educate yourself on logic, reasoning and relevance. i gave you a link... educate yourself.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on June 11, 2010, 05:00:10 AM
NO I DID NOT. quit making shit up. the record clearly shows saikron1 brought education into the debate. i did explain my point...
saikron1 said:   "china is now becoming richest country in the world... but they still dun have much on technology and majority the ppl there not really educated." ...  to which i replied:   "china has more honor students than america has students, so does india... do the math, their coming dominance is inevitable."

...it is obvious to anyone using their brain that the 'argument at hand' (between saikron1 and myself) is about the level of chinese education REGARDLESS OF THE THREAD TOPIC...
Good. You finally admitted it yourself.  Education wasn't part of the thread topic?   Yes? No?

Do you know anything about the phrase, "Off topic?"  Yes?!?! Why are you consistently off topic?  You think that this is something that's insignificant to Stefan and Cap-Z-ro?  Either one or both of them could have you banned for the piss-poor attitude you show toward several or many of the Members on this site.

Maybe you're not aware of, "Off topic?"  Or, as an alternative, you don't care?
I took the liberty that all Members have by looking at the last 80-90 of your most recent posts.  You're sure high-minded about your opinion of others.  Sure, you know something about physics and electronics, but you're telling others, in effect, "Here's my truth, and but the way, you're an idiot."
Look at these representative examples:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=2794.msg231775#msg231775 ,   Replies #5305 & #5355
Rather condescending, IMO.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/condescending

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3500.msg229990#msg229990
Okay, I'll be honestly fair.  I took an industrial metal class in high school and you're correct, slow cooling is the way to anneal steel, rather than fast-quenching it.  You do know something about physics, as I said, but that's the last kind of positive statement you're getting from me.

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=5772.msg228982#msg228982 ,  Reply #336
If I said insulting things like that to people around me, I'd be dead shortly.  It's a good thing the people you insult don't know where you live.  Please continue that attitude with those whom you associate with living near you, and hope they don't have relatives with short tempers who own guns or take martial arts classes.

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8775.msg228555#msg228555  ,  Reply #10
And you're not reading what you're writing?  You're doing what you claim Jerry (on_the_cutting_edge_2005) is doing.  Now, I admit I'm not the the most highly educated or professionally experienced Member on this site.  Like Jerry, I post my opinions on topics that I think I might know something about or I ask honest questions.  I've posted back and forth in the past with Jerry, and I'm satisfied he's sincere in what he thinks is his opinion.  I don't always agree with him, but I'm not going to stoop so low as to take that kind of attitude toward him.  Frankly, I'm being nice to you, here.  I didn't use all caps and/or bold letters like you sometimes do.  Maybe I'm too nice?  You're about the biggest, worst schmuck I've ever come across.

Alright, enough of this.  I'll put your name in the same category as TechStuf and not answer your posts from now on.  TechStuf is, IMHO, an incorrigible religionist and your fairly frequently harshly worded posts are no better than that you come across as an educated schmuck, but a schmuck nonetheless.

To summarize:
I started this thread as an expose' of explanatory articles and 'Web sources to illustrate the, IMHO, impending collapse of the American and/or worldwide economie(s).  Survival subjects after the collapse are acceptable associated subjects of discussion IMO.

Your admission that education, as such, was, in effect, off topic, makes my case that you're violating forum rules.
I'm not perfect; I know that.  I occasionally stray from the topic of a particular thread.  I can realize it and admit it.  I don't do it very often.  However! I don't go out of my way to insult people with an attitude like yours.

Maybe Cap-Z-ro will see this post and decide whether my side of the argument needs to be deleted in all or part of this post.  He's the Moderator of this Forum and we agree on a fair number of ideas.  I defer to his judgement.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on June 11, 2010, 06:40:07 PM
My home computer is still tied up with a fake antivirius program called"AV Security Suite".You can google it up to learn more about it.I had to use the library computer to leave this message.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: CompuTutor on June 11, 2010, 07:27:10 PM
It gets between you and the internet
with the windows proxy feature ...

Start in "Safe Mode with Networking" (F8 @ startup).

Internet Options >> Connections tab >> LAN Settings

Uncheck the "Use a Proxy Server" checkbox, reboot.



Then get a good uninstaller for that piece-o-crap app.

http://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en&newwindow=1&num=100&lr=lang_en&safe=off&q=#num=100&hl=en&newwindow=1&safe=off&q=Removing+AV.Security.Suite
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on June 11, 2010, 10:13:08 PM
My home computer is still tied up with a fake antivirius program called"AV Security Suite".You can google it up to learn more about it.I had to use the library computer to leave this message.triffid
Uh huh.  It's a rogue virus.  The Internet has a lot of suggestions to remove it.  This is just one:

http://www.spyware-experts.com/need-to-remove-av-security-suite/?gclid=CKPWzZrgmKICFSCjiQod-DPcXQ

There are also companies trying to sell their own antiviral package as well.  Commercialism at its best.
Anyone who has an Internet-capable computer should have up-to-date antiviral software, or they're asking for trouble.

On topic:
Greece has occupied mine, and other's, attention for a long time, but Japan has the 2nd biggest economy in the world behind The States.  The issue, thusly:

http://www.ely-co.com/reports/crisis.pdf

Now, there was an American financial commentator on cable Channel 50, in my viewing area, for my particular cable provider, who advocated the American Gov't selling guaranteed long term securities---in very strong demand---to refinance the American debt, since the Euro and other currencies are so weak.  A win-win situation, right?
No.
All we'd be doing is the same as Greece and others by forestalling the inevitable day of reckoning when the bills come due as interest that someone has to legally pay.  Borrowing more isn't the answer.  Cutting spending and costs as a result is just as bad a decision against the public because nobody wants to face that kind of financial privation anywhere in the world.

Here's similar issue:
British stockholders are going to demand that BP pay their dividend on time, even though the Americans want the money set aside for oil spill cleanup costs and lawsuit payouts.  They, the stockholders, depend on the money to pay bills.  About the same as Greece and their welfare state.  See?  Some, or many, people don't want to pay for someone else's problem.

The whole scenario will get out of control when interest rates rise dramatically.  It's coming sooner or later.

And, the Gulf oil spill is still threatening $60 billion in Gulf business as the well continues to gush.  Double-dip recession, anyone?

@triffid
We can trade posts when you fix your computer.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: WilbyInebriated on June 12, 2010, 02:33:52 AM
that's some nice cherry picking lee, but ad hominem? that's the last bastion of those with no ground to stand on...

Your admission that education, as such, was, in effect, off topic, makes my case that you're violating forum rules.
since you replied to the same post i did (saikron1's) doesn't that also make a case against yourself for violating forum rules?
reply #543 http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8010.msg243567#msg243567
you replied to saikron directly after i did... and raised no 'off topic' objection then. ::)

Quote from: saikron1
...china is now becoming richest country in the world... but they still dun have much on technology and majority the ppl there not really educated.
Perfect point to what I was saying.  Many world leaders are holding their countrymen hostage to the their own whims, in spite of what's in the best interest of their countries population's wishes.  This goes for China, as well.  Stupid, greedy Communists!!!

regardless, i gave you three at bats and you struck out everytime with logical fallacies... i will respond to them no more.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: X00013 on June 13, 2010, 12:49:46 AM
@ triffid @ all, if you have a virus that locks your windows up or whatever click this link and follow the directions to the "T" http://www.bleepingcomputer.com/virus-removal/remove-security-tool

And then stay off the  sites, hmmm, hell with that , download as much  as you can to test the software  ;D

And or check this vid, we all need tunes while we download, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnZBV0VABlQ&annotation_id=annotation_176731&feature=iv

While the music plays, goto http://www.glaryutilities.com/

Download the free shit, and run it, I got tons more, hope this helps!
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: X00013 on June 13, 2010, 12:54:00 AM
I forgot to say even if its not "security tool" your tryin to remove , the directions are on spot to rid the varments from your pc.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming... with more telling signs...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on June 16, 2010, 02:04:44 AM
Recent Internet article:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37136518/ns/us_news-life/
More states like NV, CA and FL may resort to this tactic.  If they do the right thing and own up to their responsibility to cut costs, their residents will be more than a little unhappy, to make a staggering understatement.
As I said before, "There's no good answer" to this recessionary crisis.
--Lee
There was a TV commentator that considered it likely that the USA can continue with its "recovery", but outside influences may short circuit the improvement process with a foreign double-dip recession.

Another article:
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE65E5K520100615?type=ousivMolt

I agree.  Europe and Japan are vulnerable to weakness in their smaller economies and heavy debt, in some cases.

Then there's the oil spill getting worse every day.  People are becoming angry at "Obama's Katrina".

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on June 22, 2010, 04:15:32 PM
My brother managed to remove the fake antivirus program so I'm posting this post from home.
I am looking at investing in the tar sands of canada.There is a tar sand fund.Pays about 8.4% right now.They use steam injection to remove the oil from the sands and have enough reserves to last about 20 more years up in Alberta.No off shore drilling at all and they do work at restoring the land back to its pristine state.I borrowed a dvd from the library called"The tar sands of alberta"
and got sold on investing in this technology.Plus the stocks would be in canadian money so if the dollar went into hyperinflation the loon should not.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on June 22, 2010, 04:27:54 PM
I used strips of aluminum foil 12 inches by 4 inches.Folded them in half about 10 times using a book to flatten them into suitable wires to make my solar panels with.I tried tinning them with a 20 watt soldering iron but no luck yet.I had success in melting the 60/40 solder with the 20 watt soldering iron.I think the foil wires can be tinned but with a hotter soldering iron(which I have).I used rubbing alcohol to clean off my fingerprint oils from the foil wires.I did find that my foil wires transmit heat pretty well to my fingers! triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on June 22, 2010, 04:29:42 PM
So I'm thinking homemade foil wires could have solar applications?triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on June 22, 2010, 06:22:20 PM
So I'm thinking homemade foil wires could have solar applications?triffid
Well, I'd never tried to build my own solar panels, since I've always rented an apartment for the last 40 years or so.

The foil connections would most likely work, but they're aluminum; having a rather low melting point and need to be fairly substantial in dimensions for the strength to be usable on a panel.
I always used extra solder rosin flux for soldering.  Radio Shack sells a 3-4 oz. container (for something like 4-6 bucks)?

The oil sand stocks in Alberta sound okay, but if the economy collapses---and it probably will---the money won't help you put edible food on the table.
As it stands now, I'm starting to quietly stockpile food and water for an emergency situation.  It's the best I can do in this large city with a low income.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: X00013 on June 23, 2010, 04:00:29 AM
if u wanna build panels from cells goto http://www.evergreensolar.com/

trust me
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on June 23, 2010, 03:57:04 PM
This guy was on coasttocoastam again last night.He set up a website to teach people about making alcohol for fuel.He is selling a book and workshops but seems to really know what hes talking about.http://www.alcoholcanbeagas.com/
The tar sands dvd were a delight because in 50 years on the subject I had never heard a lot about it and the dvd showed the progress they have made in the last 50 years.I too am stocking up on canned goods since most will last 30 years if need be.Cranberry sauce will ruin a can in a years time(personal experience).As for water if you have to you can get it from a river or stream and boil it for 15 minutes on the stove or campfire.That will kill most germs.Run it through activated charcoal to remove most chemicals.Triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on June 23, 2010, 07:30:22 PM
This guy was on coasttocoastam again last night.He set up a website to teach people about making alcohol for fuel.He is selling a book and workshops but seems to really know what hes talking about.http://www.alcoholcanbeagas.com/
Right.  There were plans where I lived in the Southwestern States to utilize salt-resistant plants to make alcohol and/or biodiesel.  Much cheaper and also working land that's hardly useful for anything else.
Quote
The tar sands dvd were a delight because in 50 years on the subject I had never heard a lot about it and the dvd showed the progress they have made in the last 50 years.
Yeah, research was done on the subject.  I imagine patents were granted for unique recovery/treatment processes.  However, there's always the leftover castings.  It looks like a dead ringer for paving asphalt when it cools.  Tons and tons of the stuff laying around.  Manufacturers could use it on roads, I realize.  Why don't they?  Here's a patent:

http://www.google.com/patents?id=veFTAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4#v=onepage&q&f=false
Quote
I too am stocking up on canned goods since most will last 30 years if need be.Cranberry sauce will ruin a can in a years time(personal experience).As for water if you have to you can get it from a river or stream and boil it for 15 minutes on the stove or campfire.
There was a rumor in the Air Force I heard that using Clorox to kill the germs in a 5 gallon water cooler bottle works pretty well.  Just add a capfull to the water in 3-4 gallons of a bottle, shake it for a minute, and then let it sit for an hour or two.  It will still taste bad, but it won't make you sick.  The germs will be dead.
Quote
That will kill most germs.Run it through activated charcoal to remove most chemicals.Triffid
That would work, but it might be expensive?  Charcoal is common, but is leftover fire charcoal good enough in quality to purify water?

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: X00013 on June 24, 2010, 02:14:47 AM
http://www.examiner.com/a-2695960~Fed_strikes_more_cautious_tone_on_US_recovery.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wu67yo-3jfw
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: X00013 on June 24, 2010, 02:18:08 AM
Mark my words, buy land late 2010, get out of the city your in.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: X00013 on June 24, 2010, 02:24:50 AM
fun on topic http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WphNO24h9nA
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: X00013 on June 24, 2010, 03:10:01 AM
cheap gas for blood http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDYjNao0YTw
                            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MK4SEoBFXk
                            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGe1zb1wAlY
                            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kByBSDYeO4
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on June 24, 2010, 04:18:23 AM
Mark my words,  late 2010,  of the city your in.
Point taken.  Take a look at:
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUKTRE65E5JT20100615
This will probably have far reaching consequences.  When people people have no money with which to make their lives comfortable, they might do whatever it takes to survive.

Additionally, there's this:
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Newhome-sales-plunge-33-pct-apf-1236863702.html?x=0
Double dip?

Also this:
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Global_Economy/LB18Dj02.html
Greece is like a coal mine canary.  Social unrest could happen here as well, as it did on the streets of Athens or other cities.  I say X00013 has a point.  But, I have nowhere to run to.  On the other hand, I live in a secure, front-door-locked  8th-floor  high-rise that's also one of the sturdiest buildings in San Francisco.  Freshly upgraded to strict earthquake codes.

However, if you can get to the country with food, water and a reliable gun/ammo combination, so much the better.  This whole scenario could get more than *unpleasant* when the money runs out.  That goes for just about everyone who lives in a metropolitan city or rural town.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on June 28, 2010, 08:53:16 PM
http://www.examiner.com/a-2695960~Fed_strikes_more_cautious_tone_on_US_recovery.html
X00013 may be correct in posting this article.  Here's one that paints a grim picture:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/28/opinion/28krugman.html

And, the article immediately above doesn't take into account the Gulf oil spill and Alex bearing down on the Mexican-Texas border.  Anadarko pulled its workers off Western Gulf production rigs today (28/6/10) and more oil is projected to impact the Gulf shore states.  Near-shore fishing, shrimp and oyster harvesting is probably through for the year.  Maybe 5-10 years.  Nobody knows for sure.  $60 billion in yearly gross sales is at stake, here.  This is something to worry about in a potential development for a double-dip recession.  For starters.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on July 01, 2010, 05:35:07 PM
I would think that clorox would kill those germs in the water in 15 minutes but an hour is not bad if you can wait. My aluminum foil wires did not melt under the heat from a 20 watt soldering iron.I managed to buy four small solar panels for $7.99 each from "Harbour Freight".They are listed as 9 volt battery chargers.I am buying more canned goods too.Soups,and fish are on my main list now.If you are an apartment dweller you might buy a solar powered battery charger?I will buy some fruit in cans too. triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on July 01, 2010, 05:47:21 PM
It has been hard for me to stay on the internet lately.A bolt of lightening took out the neigbours tree and his internet router and my internet at home is gone again.Add in the "Av Security Suite" attacks (two so far) and add in the times the internet service is just plain out anyway.I am going 18 miles out of my way to a library where I can borrow a computer to get on the web.Like today ,just to be able to post here.I did buy a 12inch x12 inch ceramic tile to work on my aluminum wires.So I will try to tin them again.
I was happy to find those four solar panels.You can use 9 volts to charge 6 volt batteries with and combine the two 6 volts to get 12 volts.Or by reflecting (using mirrors)twice the light  to
get 18 volts out of it.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on July 01, 2010, 05:51:31 PM
According to the Trump Social Security may last until 2030.Still not a lot of time.but more time than 2012.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on July 01, 2010, 05:56:53 PM
It would be funny if it weren't sad to think my cans of tuna could become priceless if BP wipes out all fishlife in the oceans.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on July 01, 2010, 08:27:02 PM
I would think that clorox would kill those germs in the water in 15 minutes but an hour is not bad if you can wait. ...
That's right.  The source from the Vietman War said wait at least an hour.  And shake the bottle well.  The water still tasted like cr@p, but it was safe to drink.
Quote
My aluminum foil wires did not melt under the heat from a 20 watt soldering iron. ...
Really?  Aluminum gets really weak at about 250 - 300 deg. F and also melts at a relatively low temperature.  Mach 3 fighters are made of steel and titanium for that reason.
Quote
... I managed to buy four small solar panels for $7.99 each from "Harbour Freight". ... If you are an apartment dweller you might buy a solar powered battery charger?  They are listed as 9 volt battery chargers. ...
That's a pretty good idea.  I'll have to look into that, but the rechargable batteries are fairly expensive, you know.
Quote
I am buying more canned goods too.Soups,and fish are on my main list now.I will buy some fruit in cans too. triffid
Very good idea.  I get paid tomorrow, but I also have some medical bills coming up in a month or two, so that'll be a concern.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on July 04, 2010, 05:34:13 AM
It has been hard for me to stay on  lately.A bolt of lightening took out the neigbours tree and his internet router and my internet at home is gone again.
Did you say where you lived in the past on a thread?  Sounds like you live in the "bush" or "sticks" of a rural county. 
Quote
Add in the "Av Security Suite" attacks (two so far) and add in the times the internet service is just plain out anyway.I am going 18 miles out of my way to a library where I can borrow a computer to get on the web.Like today ,just to be able to post here.
I've never had to put up with this "Av Security Suite" rogue to slow me down.  I stay on large, well-established sites, but even that is no guarantee that their firewall(s) will stop them.
Quote
I did buy a 12inch x12 inch ceramic tile to work on my aluminum wires.So I will try to tin them again.
I was happy to find those four solar panels.You can use 9 volts to charge 6 volt batteries with and combine the two 6 volts to get 12 volts.Or by reflecting (using mirrors)twice the light  to
get 18 volts out of it.triffid
That reminds me:  I checked and Radio Shack doesn't sell solar powered battery chargers.  They do have small, car-specific, battery powered inverters, on the other hand.  I told a salesman, and he agreed, the only way to go the Radio Shack or the auto parts route for solar-powered battery chargers is:

Solar cells----> Batterie(s)---->Inverter---->Battery charger---->Batteries, other appliances

I actually did something like this while living on the streets in order to power an electric shaver from a battery.  I had about 10 small solar cells in parallel to trickle charge a car battery in the winter, that being what they were designed for.   I really needed about 40 of them.  The battery went dead in 3 days.  Not enough savings for a bigger system.

Also, one can experiment with toroids, Caduceus coils, Mobius coils, or other component systems to increase efficiency.

There are other places to go:
1) Sporting goods stores, specifically
2) Wal-Mart/Target store sporting goods sections
3) Mail order distributors of sporting goods in general

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on July 05, 2010, 04:00:27 PM
It turns out that the solar panels I bought for $7.99 each plus sales tax will charge up 12 volt batteries.I have one inside my car charging up 2 AA batteries.I live 30 miles from Dallas,Texas out in the country.Regular batteries can be charged up ten times before they start leaking.An old trick I learned in college many years before.I think I can avoid handling and shipping charges from buying on ebay If I buy from harbour frieght triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on July 05, 2010, 04:12:13 PM
In April I spent $300 on handling and shipping charges on ebay to get my solar cells from ebay.To get about $300 worth of solar cells and small solar panels.I think I will hang out at Fry's and harbour frieght to see what more I can get.I am building up the nerve to try to tin my aluminum wires again.I have the ceramic tile and hotter soldering irons waitng.The heat may have weakened the aluminum wires but it did not melt it.It turned brown as if I had charred a coating on it.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on July 05, 2010, 04:22:37 PM
You can run your clorox treated water thur crushed charcoal to make it taste better just don't use charcoal thats been sprayed with lighter fluid to make it light quicker.Use only dry charcoal and I used a coffee filter from an old coffee pot.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on July 06, 2010, 12:12:59 AM
RECENT UPDATE:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/8-Problems-That-Could-Trigger-usnews-2034065513.html?x=0

I'd add a few more things to be concerned about:

9) Financial markets are just as risky as before.  I think $1 quadrillion in Credit Default Swaps (derivatives) are waiting to be either defaulted on or simply cannot be paid in, say, 1,000+ years.

10) The war in SW Asia is costing about several trillion dollars.  And we can't win militarily with the army we have now.  A black hole of money.

11) The Gulf oil spill is jeopardizing $60 billion in total regional economic activity.  Jobs are already being lost.  The end of the spill may come in late Aug.  Maybe.  The money is being lost now.

I think all this is adding up.  I doesn't look good, to put it as a seriously strong understatement.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: sparks on July 07, 2010, 06:50:14 AM
  I see an economic disaster for gamblers and swindlers.  Gamblers the stock market gamers.  Swindlers the debt salesman.  In the coming world if all you can do for others is rip them off then I dont believe you'll be of any value and being of little value discarded.  I dont forsee it as an economic disaster but more as an economic revolution.  An economy based on ripping people off and enslaving them is long overdue to be dead.  The trickle down theory is bullshit.
If you are living off the sweat of others then I'd be pretty worried at this point.  The trigger was the greed of the banking industry.  They have been playing the same game since time immortal.  Come into my den and sign this piece of paper.  It is a majical piece of paper that allows you property rights.  We are wealthy cant you see by the trappings of our room we now show you that we are wealthy.  Give us all the gold that you have.  We will give you this majical piece of paper.  You can touch it for a second.  You will be wealthy like us for a second.  Then you will work for 30years and give us more gold each and every month.  If you do not give us more gold each month we will have the police who we control throw you out of our  (oh excuse me) your house or place of business.  Now that you have touched the majical piece of paper please give it to this man who will take this majical piece of paper and deposit it into the former owners account.  He grew tired of giving us gold every month and preferred to touch the majic paper again.  So lets take the old bullshit money out of the equation.  Outlaw moneylending all together and forgive all debt.  The banking industry crashes and is reduced to living off of service fees on debit cards and cashing paychecks and administering trusts or whatever real service they provide.  Now if you have a better mouse trap and want to start a business who will you turn to for startup capitol.   You will have to sell stock in your company.  If you can not sell stock in your company then most likely your mouse trap sucks.  The systematic dismantling of companies that produced goods and services so that a moneylender could list the property as a tangible asset and in so doing perpectuate the debt industry destroyed the gnp of the United States.  Lots of empty high rise condos round here where the fishing industry use to be.  The fishing industry would have kept everybody employed in a meaningful task.  Instead we have a bunch of empty devalued apartments getting moldy and full of termites. Thankyou moneylenders for your wonderful service provided.  Take your majic paper and shove it where the sun dont shine.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on July 12, 2010, 06:45:24 PM
@sparks
With respect to your Reply post #586,

Well said.  My Native American ancestors didn't need to be greedy to survive and neither do I.  I just need enough and I have to do my best to make the effort to survive, whatever that takes.

I think we all do.

NEWS UPDATE:

http://money.cnn.com/2010/07/02/news/economy/jobs_gone_forever/index.htm?postversion=2010070223

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: X00013 on July 13, 2010, 03:35:05 AM
Sell your gold November 1st, 2010, then buy land. If you want to buy stock like most losers do, then ride the alcoa prospect of ww3.
                                                               http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqPaeb2lsRI&playnext_from=TL&videos=o4AnrTLSCuQ

u only live once and you aint comn bak
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on July 13, 2010, 04:35:59 AM
Sell your gold November 1st, 2010, then buy land. If you want to buy stock like most losers do, then ride the alcoa prospect of ww3.
                                                               http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqPaeb2lsRI&playnext_from=TL&videos=o4AnrTLSCuQ

u only live once and you aint comn bak
It might be a good idea to avoid the panic that's probably coming by getting ready now, if possible.

Learn to live off the land if you live in a western state or otherwise quietly stockpile general provisions/soap-matches-medicine-etc/gun-ammo/water/fuel and so on, as much as possible.  Pretty quick, as in "Now".

Were running out of time, IMHO.  X00013 is right in that regard.

Another concern?

http://www.foxbusiness.com/story/markets/industries/government/trade-deficit-threatens-double-dip-depression/?test=latestnews

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on July 14, 2010, 10:31:19 PM
NEWS UPDATE:
http://money.cnn.com/2010/07/02/news/economy/jobs_gone_forever/index.htm?postversion=2010070223
--Lee
Also, small banks are being squeezed out of existence by souring commercial loans and high unemployment:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100714/ap_on_bi_ge/us_bailout_watchdog_small_banks

Hundreds of small banks could fail in 1 1/2 yrs.  Add that to the list of worsening problems.

Illinois is the new Greece?
http://money.cnn.com/2010/07/13/news/economy/illinois_debt/index.htm?source=cnn_bin&hpt=Sbin

Countries, as well as states, are equally bad off:

http://wallstreet.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2010/06/18/more-bets-against-big-states/

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on July 15, 2010, 03:18:49 AM
I get amazed sometimes about how smart people can be in spite of current events.http://www.rubber-power.com/Gallery10.htm  shows plans for a Walkalong glider.If your kids get bored being shut in some day show them this website.http://www.rubber-power.com/Gallery10.htm
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: sparks on July 15, 2010, 06:51:44 AM
    The US dept is in the form of notes.  Some of these notes take on the form of US dollars.  As other people of the world start to doubt the ability of the US to do anything beyond consume and export high tech weapons and put the US military out in the field in a mercanary position for large corporations the US credit report starts to sink.  The dollar becomes worth less or worthless and inflation takes its toll.  If the US government does not start to govern and allows itself to be a corporate  then we as citizens are in trouble.    If things continue we will be working all day for a meal never mind housing transportation and living.  Obama has done nothing to create jobs.  He just devalued the dollar by handing billions to the debt industry and the automotive industry.  What is it with the automotive industry.  They are corporations owned by multinational interests.  The jobs lost are inevitable nobody has any money to buy a new car duh.    If you are working in detroit in an SUV assembly plant you should be thinking career change as the corporations will steadily enslave peoples of other lands where there are no labor laws enviromental laws or anything else that resembles respect for the human condition.  The world has a new generation of colonists and these people are ruthless.  You think the British were bad look at every country that they pulled out of.  Right behind them the corporations pulled in.  What the Spainards did to the Americas will pale in contrast to what the corporations will do to us now.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on July 16, 2010, 12:20:15 AM
@sparks
With respect to your post #592,

Well said!
As George Santayana said,

"Those who refuse to learn from history are condemned to repeat it."


Deja vu all over again.  This time, though, I think the current repetition will equal the collapse of the Roman Empire for reasons similar to that time period.

Santayana is absolutely right.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on July 19, 2010, 05:01:15 AM
I hear that when other nations refuse to buy our debt then the dollar will soon crumble.So When you hear that China is not buying our debt and today I heard that they still are.So judgement day is not here yet.I heard some numbers today .The USA owes 14 trillion.China has bought about 900 billion of that debt.
I hear timelines ranging from two years to 70 years but whenever it is.The collapse will catch a lot of people by surprise.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on July 19, 2010, 05:29:48 PM
I hear that when other nations refuse to buy our debt then the dollar will soon crumble.So When you hear that China is not buying our debt and today I heard that they still are.
They're reducing the rate at which they buy, I heard on the news.  They're finally deciding to wise up.  The debt is a black hole.  Computer projections fall apart at about 2035 because of just the interest on the debt.  Right.  It's coming to an end, sooner or later.
Quote
So judgement day is not here yet.I heard some numbers today .The USA owes 14 trillion.China has bought about 900 billion of that debt.
That's just the debt.  The ongoing costs add to that daily.  As I said, "It's coming to an end, sooner or later."
Quote
I hear timelines ranging from two years to 70 years but whenever it is.The collapse will catch a lot of people by surprise.
Stupid people, maybe.  The OU Members should be smart enough to see the trends.  I sure do.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on July 21, 2010, 05:28:31 AM
NEWS UPDATE:
http://money.cnn.com/2010/07/02/news/economy/jobs_gone_forever/index.htm?postversion=2010070223
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_unemployment_benefits_impact

I think the article is right.  Something has to happen to create jobs on a big scale for the economy to get going.  Not happening.




http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Relief-effort-fails-many-at-apf-3302765136.html?x=0

This *hits the nail on the head*.  Tax credits ended and then the bottom the balloon deflated *again*.  More foreclosures coming.  Maybe many, many more.  No end in sight.

--Lee

Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on July 24, 2010, 03:52:25 AM
ars to 70 years but whenever it is.The collapse will catch a lot of people by surprise.
Here's one that is actually sneaking up on everyone slowly:
The whole, average American infrastructure is crumbling from fiscal neglect.  After WWII, Pres. Eisenhower invested heavily in infrastructure after he saw what great things the German Autobahn did for the German economy.

Now, it's over.  Bridges, railroads, roads, power grids, etc. are dilapidated to the point of collapse.  If it isn't the lack of money to keep the economy going, the lack of quality infrastructure will do the rest in a "collapse".

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on July 29, 2010, 11:29:19 AM
I found an interesting website.I liked the article about stealth camping.It kind of goes along with my idea of stealth farming.http://www.off-grid.net/
triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on July 29, 2010, 11:39:49 AM
Another site on eco-friendly homes.http://www.greenlivingonline.com/article/inside-americas-most-eco-friendly-homes
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on August 10, 2010, 03:49:53 AM
How amusing ! We look to these blogs while we miss the point. The middle class in the U.S. Is being systematically eliminated by the political elite. We are asked to sell our cars, down size our homes, extend the retirement age, pay more for everything while your Congress and the Corporate elite continue to benefit from the national despair.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: cletushowell on August 10, 2010, 04:53:18 AM
well if haliburton follows thru on ending oil and switching to there green companies in one years as I heard while installing granite in there house they thought I was a plumber
but I wasnt I was listening to the whole phone call with David the ceo hes not the boss
just a puppet told to not make any decisions let the board do it there getting there accounting in order they have silicon cells to lead frequencies basically they convert the lead frequency into light frequencies by spliting it but they dont have uvc uvb uva But I do. but there only building silicon cells to make you buy solar over and over as they over power the grid and manipulate energy spikes but Im sabataging them before they get to bankrupt us again like 911 enron mortgage. there busses are set in order so when oil ends you have to use ther busses on natural gas and solar. at least in california they are. The dollar crashes with oil get out early keep your cash get gold read revelations the letter to the Dila oceans laodiceans
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on August 10, 2010, 05:18:09 AM
How amusing ! We look to these blogs while we miss the point.
Well, I think the average American is only concerned with his immediate comfort, so you may be right?  He might not accept the failure of the economy as inevitable because he doesn't prefer to think of something that dire to his survival?  I think that's what "John Q. Public" thinks, anyway.
Quote
The middle class in the U.S. Is being systematically eliminated by the political elite. We are asked to sell our cars, down size our homes, extend the retirement age, pay more for everything while your Congress and the Corporate elite continue to benefit from the national despair.
There may have been an Ancient Roman senator who could have said,
"As long as people are allowed to engage in their carnal lusts and be excused for their willful ignorance, they'll accept any kind of restriction or tyranny."
(paraphrased gist of the actual quote)

I agree.  This world may not be worth rescuing by now.  It's too far gone downhill.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on August 11, 2010, 03:59:54 PM
Buyers have already borrowed too much money that they can’t pay back.  They spent it on houses that are now worth less than the loan. However, since the banks have friends in Washington, they get special treatment that you do not have. The Federal Reserve prints up bales of new money to buy worthless mortgages from the most irresponsible banks, slowing down the buyer-friendly deflation in prices and socializing bank losses.

 Big bank cash flow will never run out as long as the Federal Reserve exists.

The Federal Reserve exists simply to protect big banks from the free market. Banks get to keep any profits they make; however, the bank will have losses and the FR will print more money and buy the bad mortgages. This will get passed on to you as inflation.

Congress authorized vast amounts of TARP bailout cash, taken from taxpayers, to be loaned directly to the worst-run banks; those that already gambled on mortgages and lost. The FR and Congress are letting the banks “extend and pretend” that their mortgage loans will get paid back.

It is necessary that YOU be forced deeply into debt and therefore forced into slavery for the banks to make a profit.  If you pay a low price for a house and manage to avoid debt, the banks lose control over you.  This is unacceptable to them.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on August 11, 2010, 06:29:29 PM
Buyers have already borrowed too much money that they can’t pay back.  They spent it on houses that are now worth less than the loan.
Right.  Some did that as an "investment".  Some "investment!"  But, then, also too, some were lied to by greedy mortgage brokers who wanted all the commission money.
Here's one of the bottom lines:  A political candidate (I forgot who---doesn't matter now)  said the ability to cheat with greed was always there.  It was the loose financial permissiveness of the Feds that allowed the problem to get so big.

There's something else:
Commercial companies are part of the problem because they lowered salaries and wages to the point that people in *underwater* mortgaged homes can't afford to relocate for a better job.  And if they could, would they relocate to Asia, East Europe of the Middle East for less money than they had before the Great Recession?  No wonder the unemployment rate is so high.  Companies are doing themselves a disservice by keeping compensation so low.  They're responsible for that.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: cletushowell on August 12, 2010, 12:29:02 AM
See the truth in math they never lost shit
100,000
10,000 pmi
10,000 down
3 years 36,000 paid
compound that
then the price manipulated by
the imigration to inflate the census
every ten years
so they made 56,000
the housing on average did not all drop
below the loans but even the ones that
did they made 56,000
sold the loans as a bond security
to china got paid on future income
based on tripple aaa rated scam loans
then say there broke and we give them 700 trillion
more to cover the oil scam and there ending the dollar
but im taking it all watch and see 

Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: sparks on August 13, 2010, 05:26:48 AM
       If Obama wanted to stimulate the economy he would outlaw the entire loan system.   Contracts requiring repayment in excess of the loaned amount would be illegal.  Any form of interest collected would constitute a criminal offense.  All contracts requiring interest on loaned amounts would be null and void.  All mortgages credit card debt or any instrument entered into contract which involves the collection of interest would be null and void.  Any existing contract would be modified to reduce the principal owed by all past interest payments made plus any penalities closing costs or any other fees collected beyond the principal amount due.  This would most assuredly create an economic disaster for the investment industry but who really cares about these worthless non productive members of society.  Alot of stupid selfish hedonistic people would go out and buy up a bunch of krap they dont need but some would make investments into companies corporations small businesses that would benefit future generations instead of enslaving them to moneylenders through tax levy to steal from the poor and give to the rich.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: cletushowell on August 13, 2010, 06:22:44 AM
Its way easier then the loans
people can pay interest thats not the issue
the issue is first eliminate short selling
so these guys dont get rich off bankrupting companies
then stabilize imigration eliminating it
is not the problem flucuation is the problem
it fluctuates intentionaly by politicians ever ten years to
bumb the census up
then force free energy by giving our federal
paid power project back to the people first thing i would do
give ca its hyways its byways
its healthcare its wellfare
its coastline its land now national parks
its prisions
its energy
its resources like fishing and Gold
oil and wind
all to the people of california
and when all that power is back to people
then put 1000 volunteers for every million
to watch the goverment officials at work
and then you dont have to wait on votes from 49
other states to get flushing toilets
or running water next to our nuclear plants
and when thats done ca can single handed
turn the economy till free energy we pay more
then probly the whole us comined
our power bills go from 500-700 a month
per house thats not a joke we pay what
most people pay for a house payment for electeicity
our water and garbage runs up to 200 a month
per house think about that then our crooked
gov recycles it all and sells it after charging us.
We get tickits if we leave our trash cans out a day late
ya we have trash can police too the stupidest thing i ever heard
 
 
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: sparks on August 13, 2010, 08:00:43 AM
      Short sales are great insite into the banking industry game.  For a few thousand dollars they will come in and buy the house for less then you owe the bank.  How can this be possible.  Why would the bank do such a thing.  Because they never put any real money out in the first place.  What really sucks is the mortgage insurance companies.  They take premium money from home buyers and run a game that is even filthier than the moneylenders.  They got bailed out by the government but how can you explain all the failed banks.  Because the mortgage insurance companies spent all the premium money and the bailout money on their own fat lazy asses.  I guess the constitution guaranteed seperation of church and state but not state and criminal behaviour.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on August 13, 2010, 09:43:29 PM
      Short sales are great insite into the banking industry game.  For a few thousand dollars they will come in and buy the house for less then you owe the bank.  Why would the bank do such a thing.  Because they never put any real money out in the first place.
The bottom line should be:  Usury is making money with money by charging interest.
NOTICE:
http://www.hsh.com/calc-amort.html

A $150,000 on a fixed rate, 4%, 30 year mortgage loan has $257,766 in payments for an average of $716/mo.

For a refinance loan, 3% at 50 years, the average payment is $483/mo for $289,800 total payments.
(All this doesn't include balloon payments as closing fees.)

My point is:  Any house isn't worth that much more than the purchase price to me.  No wonder people walk away from an "underwater" house and mail the keys back to the bank.  This is usury and is just plain greed.

Greed first, and the increasingly common collapse of the family unit---nontraditional same  marriages being equally valid to me in cultural terms, and aren't included; they're fine as long as they endure individually---plus political game-playing dirty tricks, as well as two wars overseas that should be impossible to win militarily, will have a devastating effect on the economy eventually.  The original focus is money, or lack thereof, in all the above.

The whole scenario is unsustainable.

Otherwise, sparks has hit the bull's eye with the rest of his quoted post.  Corporate greed in the housing industry and all other financial fields is torturing the country's economy.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: 11:11 on August 14, 2010, 08:38:25 AM


most people seem to be overlooking,
a very basic aspect,
of the financial system.



paper based money,
is an illusion.

computer data based money,
is an even thinner illusion.

ownership of "material objects",
might as well be an illusion.



there for,
a system based upon the above,
is a system based on illusions.

if you consider illusions to be lies,
like i do,
than that makes the economic system,
a system based on lies.



the loss of our quality of life,
which in one way or another,
is MOSTLY caused by our economic system,
is real.

the pain,
misery,
suffering,
and worry,
that people feel,
because of the economic system,
are also real.

why should
blood,
sweat,
and tears,
be less important,
than a lie ???



the time and effort that go into a full time job,
were real.
yet the reward for tolerating the job and its many strains,
is not real.

aggravated by the fact,
that after all factors are considered,
most of the time and effort put into the average job,
are wasted.

i estimate that the wasted time/effort,
is greater than 90%.

which means the employee's are burning their lives out,
for what amounts to nothing.



this is not a problem of "money".
this is not caused by a real thing.

this is a problem of "illusion".
of people believing in a lie.



if enough people stop believing in the lie,
and start believing in real things,
than the illusion of money,
will disintegrate into less than photons.

people would still have to prevent the elites from killing them,
with denial of food and shelter.
(legal genocide).



but unlike money,
food and shelter based genocide,
actually is a real problem.
that has real answers.

where illusions cannot be solved,
as they would have to exist,
in order to be solvable.



you cannot shoot a holographic bear.

you cannot date a holographic model.

you cannot borrow $20 from a holographic friend.

and you cannot fix the problems,
of a holographic economic system.



which means until either:

1:
we have a roman empire style infrastructure disintegration,
to FORCE people to no longer feed the lie,
or

2:
the illusion-maintainers are neutralized,
preferably by tying them up,
putting them onto an airplane,
and throwing them out into the middle of the pacific ocean,
or

3:
enough people stop believing in illusions..........



our current miseries will NOT go away.
no matter how many decades pass.



you can live in a shack in the forest.

you can eat wild plants,
with your sense of taste,
being an excellent indicator of toxicity.

(most plant leaves have carbohydrates in them,
other than the unusable cellulose).

you can keep yourself warm enough to live,
with little more than thick layers of clothing,
separation from direct wind/water,
and your own body heat.



it is not hard to live like a cave man.

they greatly over-exaggerate the difficulty.

the only truly hard parts,
are the parts that the elites purposely created.

such as their vicious anti-homeless laws.

or the proliferation of privately "owned" land,
which as it is implemented,
is needlessly damaging,
to our ability to live independantly,
from the control system.



if it were a quarter as hard to survive,
as they have tricked everyone into believing,
than mankind would have gone extinct thousands of years ago,
due to the difficulty.



i ask every one of you, to stop believing in money.

you cannot force other people to disbelieve the hologram.

but you have all the control in the world,
over your own belief in the hologram.



survive in whatever way,
you think you have to survive in.

but don't believe in the lie any longer.
so that you can have real proudness,
that you are not be contributing to it.


Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: truthbeknown on August 14, 2010, 09:14:26 AM
 And one day we will be throwing our money in streets.....
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: cletushowell on August 14, 2010, 05:59:30 PM
The Goverment is done let me explain why
first you cant claim eminint domain
in a lake if alligators the people are the alligators
next we have a president whos a hollogram
2 the nasa the nukes the weapons are all infiltrated by
russia and actualy controlled against the president
if he cuts funding because he has no weapons
of his own.
3 the technology has passed the goverment
  By far its not in the hands of them
  But in the hands of people with more money
 Example one  in vegas has a bigger budget
then the nasa program and also more technology
 they can control the entire
with frequency of harmonics and brain wave pulse
at the same as optic nerve to release seritonin
this is widly used it was developed in
airforce the same program timothy
mcvague was in also my grandmother Geneva
which led to the Geneva treaties against
mental testing of prisioners of war but there
is no Law against domestic use Grandpa
never thought they would become corrupt
and use it in security devices at wallmart
airports on ellite goimg to stock markets
this is just the tip of the ice berg
the rich fly private they have phone not on the
frequency of the rest and so you see
but this is key go thru scanners fast
dont dont linger by check outs magnetic
if your ear gets hot on phone end the call
use speaker phone and text
cover your camera when not in use
yes they can have pictures of anything
the fiber optic grid now has eyes on ever street
to see when its cloudy all this is paid for by us
the people why do we allow it?
First day im president those scanners are getting
ripped out by people and they will pay people to be nice
and help those in need. 
tsa is getting ended
the experation date on food will be moved
up one week the extra food will be
cooked by volunteers in buffet
so there will be no starving people and need for
food stamps if your hungry go eat
if you dont like a line then you wont go
theres many vacant building expecialy
down town that can easily serve as
places for the homeless and showers
with relativly little work
and tell me why the fire men sit all day
when theres always something to do
i see the homeless sit out here
get heat stroke and call ambulance to have a cool
place to sleep and food for a night
they never going to pay these guys call some once a week
the officers a jail arrest people for nothing
just to keep them full and seriously
this goverment is so far gone there is no hope
unless someone like me or jesse ventura cleans house the whole thing
and it start with getting all goverment
military contractors out and a couple good scientist
like mythbusters and a few others with my string theory
and develop the next generation of weapons
they can be done in like two weeks using
black hole technology and antigravity
change the power to free energy
which im very close im putting a bunch on
utube today
 
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: 11:11 on August 15, 2010, 01:49:59 AM


cletus.

eating uncooked oatmeal,
is little different chemically,
from eating cerial out of the box.

cooked oatmeal is disgusting.
but uncooked oatmeal,
is the least dis-agreeable food,
that is possible to eat.



you just soak it in cold water for 30 seconds,
chew on it a little,
and it is edible.

one mouth full worth of it,
gives you surprising amounts of energy.
because the carbohydrates burn for a very long time,
before being used up.

where the carbohydrates in most mainstream food,
burn up as quickly as a dry leaf,
and leave you hungry again.



the food addatives in most food,
have nasty effects,
on my body and mind.

but the oatmeals carbohydrates,
leave me feeling "clean" and un-disrupted.



you can get 2 pounds of oatmeal,
for about $2.

yet that 2 pounds of oatmeal,
can easily feed someone for more than a week.

if you semi-fast with it,
eating it sparsely,
than you could make that $2 last for 3 weeks or longer.



and that does not include the ecological convenience of oats.
such as how it will grow in colder/wetter climates,
and resists pests and rotting.

saying that oats were fit only for animals,
ranks as one of the top 12 dumbest things,
that humans ever did in the past.



give a bum a 2 pound can of oatmeal,
tell him how to eat it,
and he will not know hunger for at least half a month.

not counting his other food sources.


Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: cletushowell on August 15, 2010, 04:54:27 AM
I will keep that in mind but not trying to
Get religous on you but do have a question
well two is there a food that does not absorb water
like what im saying is if you lived in the dessert
with no water what could you eat that would not dehydrate you
second is Jesus said if you have enough
faith you can tell the cow to not only prepare itself
but also prepare the meal and serve it and still
live now lots people try to say jesus used medaphore
but i dont beleive so i think he was serious
and included it several ways first
thing comes to mind is he mentions getting drunk on the blood
a lot in Bible I could see the cow still living
but not serving the meal or preparing it
so the next is cow shit now this is discusting
but a cow does prepare it and its served
is it eddible and how nutricious is it
and the next would be some pretty good science
maybee hes talking about the milk
but the science I think the cow could probly regrow one cut
of meat not shure which or how the cow would serve it
maybee its the cud cows chew there cud thats preparing the meal
and serving it huh you see how many ways God
makes one thing this is why religions fight
one thing to God is all ways humans seperate them
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on August 15, 2010, 06:15:15 AM
I liked the bit about raw oatmeal.Raw oatmeal contains mite eggs.Just like wheat bran.The mites don't really bother humans as they are plant mites.It still is a shock to see them hatch and to see them move as I once did.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: cletushowell on August 15, 2010, 07:35:33 AM
Well let me tell you what I said I
promised to take every dollar back from these dictators
and now i know why davinci had the key
tesla had it now me
tesla designed the ac edision designed the dc
but tesla fixed edisions designs and never got
paid so heres the secret to the 369
its produces power at 1000 times
tesla put us on a power grid of 3 prong
six coils and nine goes to the ground
60 hz plus the empty gaps =120
this is all power of 144,000
so we have a unlimited earth battery we charged
1000 times what we used over the last hundred
years it gets better tesla seperated the gaps in the motor
to seperate frequency in air
6+6 =12 so he fucked all the countries
not on 120/12 they didnt charge 1000 times over 100
years now were going to operate in 8 wich never loses power
so we essential now controll the world because we will have unlimited
free power very soon and no other country
will because there power battery is not charged
and the goverment cant uncharge it so
i essentialy unlocked and single handed
turned us into a rich nation over night well tesla set it up
Shouldnt mess with God or the guys with the keys
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: cletushowell on August 15, 2010, 07:45:29 AM
Which means you cant take out
our power and there screwed
now you see the power of the chief prince of meshech
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on August 16, 2010, 03:29:30 PM
Here is a paragraph from an article on what we could expect from a double dip
recession on JOBS:2. Unemployment

Unemployment would move back above 10% quickly. In the 1982 recession, the jobless rate was over 10% for 20 consecutive months and reached 10.8% for two months. During this period, the manufacturing base had not been destroyed. The economy is now arguably worse than it was in 1982. Many Americans who worked in manufacturing before the recession cannot be retrained, and the factories where they worked will not be reopened. Many companies have recently adopted the policy that they will keep as much of their work-force temporary for as long as possible. This keeps the cost of benefits low and allows firms to fire people quickly and without severance. A hiring strike by American businesses would contribute to putting 200,000 to 300,000 people out of work per month. At the peak of the recession that just ended, there were nearly six job seekers for every open job, according to the Labor Department. The job market could return to that point.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on August 16, 2010, 03:36:39 PM
I am reminded that if you have a job you have no recession.If your job has not left you.You don't leave your job.During the recession of 1982 I was gainfully employed.Our hours went down to less than 40 (39.9)a week so I had no overtime for a couple of years but it was not a major concern.Most of the recessions in my life I did not even notice due to being gainfully employed.Since 1975 I have lived through 3 or 4. triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on August 16, 2010, 03:56:45 PM
What the stock market could look like in a double dip recession.If the performance of the equity markets in 2008 and early 2009 is any indication, the S&P 500 would drop from its current level of about 1,100 to a low of 676, which it hit in March 2009. This would take trillions of dollars off business balance sheets and from consumer retirement and brokerage accounts. Businesses would become less likely to invest in new plants, equipment and services. For individuals, many would see a large part of their retirement disappear. That would cause a huge drop in consumer spending as people attempt to preserve cash, perpetuating further drops in the stock market
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on August 16, 2010, 04:00:35 PM
What this tells me is to hang on to my cash.Don't buy stocks right now.Cash is still king until the government makes it 100%worthless(When???).How would I know?
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on August 16, 2010, 04:04:32 PM
The same article tells us what would happen to banking in case of a double dip recession.The effect on most of the financial services industry would be catastrophic, particularly at the regional and community bank level where a number of home and commercial real estate loans are held. The FDIC would be forced to borrow money from the Treasury to cover bank closings. The number of failed banks could reach the level of the savings and loan crisis during which over 700 banks and mortgage lenders were shuttered
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on August 16, 2010, 04:06:27 PM
I lived through the Savings and loan crisis.It did not affect me very much.So I don't think more bank closings will affect me too badly.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on August 16, 2010, 04:39:49 PM
Just to make sure everyone is informed here. The U.S. Government passed a bill that says products from other countries no longer have to be identified as such. So, if your looking to buy Amercian, good luck with that. Since now we won't know where our products are actually coming from. My guess is that many people were trying to buy Amercian products and import sales dropped. So our Government made it more difficult for us to identify these imported goods at the point of purchase.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: cletushowell on August 16, 2010, 08:43:58 PM
Trust mme we know there both shit try
passing a law that says if it dont last 100
years you cant sell it fuck make it two years
that be a miracle all the products are made the same shit
when the quality of the product is defind by its competetion
and the competition is defined by the price and volume
you will never have a standard for quality
without goverment and Goverment we all know is shit
so there you have it all the quality of the Goods suck
when the dollar declines then more people buy goods from us
making our factories our jobs build then
the newest technology can be built then crash the other countries 
tell me how you trade stocks with no computers
and no cash
I tell you. You just eliminated the whole scandles
and all the fake wealth of people who think they own a part of a company
then try to fight over that company in court you be dead by time the courts are done
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on August 17, 2010, 02:06:56 AM
...I tell you. You just eliminated the whole scandles
and all the fake wealth of people who think they own a part of a company
then try to fight over that company in court you be dead by time the courts are done
Yeah, I agree with practically everything you said.
Speaking of fake wealth, Obama's *stimulus*  **package** has about run out, or will in due course, and he's got no more bullets in his economic *gun* to fire at the meltdown bubble.

Look at this:
http://www.housingpredictor.com/double-dip.html
http://www.itulip.com/housingbubblecorrection.htm

Even if the housing prices bottom out from falling further, unemployment, as well as increasing mortgage default rates---which are badly spooking Washington analysts now---will signal no end in sight.
If it isn't the former Gulf oil spill contributing to unemployment (it can, easily) then there's a potentially crazy maniac in N. Korea, earthquake survivors in Haiti, newly disastrous flood survivors in Pakistan (fresh floods coming in a few days to 20,000,000+ victims), the euro zone financial uncertainty, and any/all other future, unknowable natural disasters.

People are getting scared and angry.  But, cletushowell has a point in being down on the economy and the greed that caused it.
The ancient Roman Empire in the 5th Century experienced some of the same problems the world today is.  That collapse started the Dark Ages.

Now, people want to receive debt-loaded bailouts, but they want someone else to pay for it while they continue to spend freely with more debt of their own.

Nobody gets absolutely everything they want.  Especially now.  The bubbles are deflating.

REEDIT:
Lastly, just in to me...
http://finance.yahoo.com/career-work/article/110344/what-the-double-dip-recession-will-look-like

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on August 18, 2010, 08:03:51 PM
Just a balanced budget, for 30 years, will pay off all U.S. debt, just like making a 30 year house note, the U.S., with balanced budgets, would pay off 30 year treasury bonds. Now, getting to a balanced budget, now that's where alot of us disagree?triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on August 18, 2010, 08:06:27 PM
I just read a statement saying that 2027 is when all the ##&^ hits the fan.
If our course of action remains the same.Triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on August 18, 2010, 08:22:38 PM
How can we double dip, when in actuallity, we still have negative growth?

Lets explain this as simply as possible.
If you have a net worth of $200,000.00, & you rack up $50k on a credit card, are you still worth $200k? No, any bank will tell you, you are now worth only $150K.

How then can our government in 2009, rack up $1.422 trillion on our credit card, & yet claim 3.5% growth? If you take our GDP of $14 trillion, divide it into the $1.422 trillion borrowed, it means 10.2% of GDP was borrowed money, artificially pumped into the economy. 3.5% - 10.2%, ='s a negative 6.7%. This money has to be paid back some day, so there are interest payments to be made (30 years of it), increasing that negative 6.7% into the future.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on August 18, 2010, 08:27:47 PM
Hi America, what happens today teaches us a valuable lesson. NEVER let other people manage your money. ONLY YOU alone are allowed to do that. When people let the government and the bank take care of their money, they blew it. The big banks get bail outs while the small banks are forced to close or eaten up by the big banks, small businesses collapsed, jobs are lost while CEOs are paid indecently. Money put in 401(K) are toast as the stockmarket crashes. People cannot retire because they can't afford medical, their retirement funds toasted. Let's face it, only we can take care of ourself with wise money management. Its better to manage my own money than let other people do it. Look what they did due to greed. Good luck America and the world but don't give up. One day the sunshine will still come back. Hang on there! triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on August 18, 2010, 08:32:29 PM
It may take 7 to 10 years for some people to recover.But the worse credit record has a federal statue of limitations and thats 7 years.No need to commit suicide over money problems.Fear less if you can.Some states don't require 7 years of waiting.okla(3) and texas(4).triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on August 18, 2010, 08:39:11 PM
Avoid mutual funds.They use 6-grade math to decieve you.A mutual fund that claims 25% a year can double your money or reduce it to zero after 5 years.Using the same math you learned in 6-grade.A very great deception.I got talked into some mutual funds a couple of years back and have seen them fall in value by about 25%.Now they send me letters saying I need to increase the amount I have in there.No way I'm sending more.Triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on August 18, 2010, 08:42:40 PM
What I have in there now could be zero in 5 more years.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on August 18, 2010, 10:06:50 PM
Now, getting to a balanced budget, now that's where alot of us disagree?triffid
Them?  Congress?!?!  They exist to perpetuate their perpetual existence.  It would solve problems to do things right and then they'd be out of a job!   >:(   :D   ::)   :P

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on August 18, 2010, 10:20:07 PM
How can we double dip, when in actuallity, we still have negative growth?
@triffid
With respect to your posted Reply #629, the computer simulations of interest payments usually causes system crashes that might even freeze a computer and force a hardware reboot about the years 2025-2040, depending on how inflation, employment, mortgage defaults, etc., etc. is figured.

The collapse occurs no matter what they try.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on August 18, 2010, 10:30:01 PM
Hi America, what happens today teaches us a valuable lesson. ...
I agree with about all you said, but one thing bothers me:

Some of the blame for the economy lies with average people "who wanted their cake and to eat it, too."  They believed the lies they were told and didn't check into how good things really weren'tSome intelligent people on the streets know this economic truth, but they may be a victim of other people's decisions in Washington, as well as their own poor decisions, I realize.  But, they're responsible for their own actions if they wanted something that they believed they could have in spite of past evidence to the contrary in the Great Depression.

Too many people don't ever learn, generation to generation.  Otherwise, you're correct, IMO.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on August 19, 2010, 12:15:40 PM
By 1932, the Great Depression had spread across the globe. In the U.S., unemployment had reached 24.9%,[46] a drought persisted in the agricultural heartland, businesses and families defaulted on record numbers of loans, and more than 5,000 banks had failed.[47] Tens-of-thousands of Americans who found themselves homeless and began congregating in the numerous Hoovervilles (also known as shanty towns or tent cities) that had begun to appear across the country. The name 'Hooverville' was coined by their residents as a sign of their disappointment and frustration with the perceived lack of assistance from the federal government. In response, Hoover and the Congress approved the Federal Home Loan Bank Act, to spur new home construction, and reduce foreclosures. The plan seemed to work, as foreclosures dropped, but it was seen as too little, too late.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on August 19, 2010, 12:18:10 PM
The above paragraph came from  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_Hoover
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on August 19, 2010, 12:26:26 PM
It was war that brought the world out of the great depression.Not congress.Not the americans.God forbid we should give the germans credit for it.We do tend to blame them for starting the war.The german currency crashed to zero in the 1920's due to hyperinflation and in the 1940's when the german government debased their own currency after the war.Suicides happened as people realized their savings had vanished overnight.Thanks to their government.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: sparks on August 19, 2010, 12:30:25 PM
     Whenever a profit is made where does the money come from that provides this profit.   Lets not even get into people buying and selling money.  Like a guy buys a loaf of bread and then sells the loaf of bread for more then he bought it for.  Where is that extra money going to come from.  It has to come from either printing more money or increasing this thing called debt.  So either this debt conception grows or the money supply grows as long as we have profit.   Its just the way it is.  Manipulated recessions and depressions are the products of those that havent seen the light.  As more people arrive on our planet there will be more demands for profit so the money supply and debt will need to increase.  Its no big thing.  Just print the fucking money and jot down the debt and lets get on with creation.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: sparks on August 19, 2010, 12:53:40 PM
It was war that brought the world out of the great depression.Not congress.Not the americans.God forbid we should give the germans credit for it.We do tend to blame them for starting the war.The german currency crashed to zero in the 1920's due to hyperinflation and in the 1940's when the german government debased their own currency after the war.Suicides happened as people realized their savings had vanished overnight.Thanks to their government.triffid

    Go one step further.  Could the depression have been mainipulated so as to percipitate a global conflict.  Could this depression be manipulated to precipitate another global confict.   
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on August 19, 2010, 08:22:39 PM
    Go one step further.  Could the depression have been mainipulated so as to percipitate a global conflict.  Could this depression be manipulated to precipitate another global confict.
With respect to Replies #'s 637-641,
I agree with most of your points.  However, greed for it's own sake is self defeating.  Nobody gets to have it all because they merely desire it.  The "Collapse" will come because of it.

WWII did bring the world out of depression because people were jolted to action by impending Fascist death squads killing minorities in Europe and we would have been next.  It may happen again if or when the Jihadis win in SW Asia.  Then, they'll turn their attention to us.

The Feds had better get their act together like they did in WWII, or the Muslim extremists will do the same to us that the Fascists did to Jews in Europe.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on August 21, 2010, 04:41:00 AM
It may take 7 to 10 years for some people to recover.But the worse credit record has a federal statue of limitations and thats 7 years.No need to commit suicide over money problems.Fear less if you can.Some states don't require 7 years of waiting.okla(3) and texas(4).triffid
All this *recovery* could take longer than predicted?
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/08/20/nearly-half-participants-obama-mortgage-aid-program-drop/?test=latestnews

The article above probably expounds upon known conditions to the financial industry.
Not only is the national refinancing effort falling short of goals, half the homeowners are walking away from their newly refinanced mortgages anyway---the reason being, according to at least a few analysts, is that it isn't worth the effort to pay for a house that far "underwater."

This whole scenario goes on and on...

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on August 21, 2010, 10:54:02 PM
This whole scenario goes on and on...
http://money.cnn.com/2010/08/17/news/economy/cities_risk_double_dip/index.htm
This is additional information...

http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2010/news/1008/gallery.early_social_social_security/index.html
I know what they're experiencing:  I'm 60.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: sparks on August 22, 2010, 07:37:30 AM
    If the United States or any other sluggish economy got off its ass and instead of creating a false economy based on profits earned buying and selling futures then their would be no problem.  We had the last boom in the late nineties and early 2s because we were industrializing china.  Now china is coming back to bite us in the ass as a competitor producing stuff we use to sell all over the world at reduced prices as they enslave their population.  I am an electric motor tech.  The motors I install on pumps are all made in china now.  Corporations dont care who is making their profits whether it be a chineese guy or an American guy.  They prefer the Chineese guy because his government could give a rats ass about his quality of life.  The chineese people are idiots.  I wouldnt leave a job in a rice paddie for a job in some sweatshop unless the government made me sell the rice paddies to them which appears to be their way of driving the farmers into the sweatshops.   Do we need these industrial produced things that badly that we take an agrarian population and convert it into a industrial population.  Who is going to feed all these new slaves.  Some idiot once said that if you control a countries money you control the country.  You control a countries ability to feed itself and you control the country.  The US before World War II use to be the breadbasket of the world.  Then industrialists seeing the power of the farmer started an outright war against them.  These people are hell bent on depopulating the Earth one way or the other.  Take Cuba for example or any other bannana republic.  These populations have been reduced to agrarian slaves to feed industrialized populations.  The food they produce is traded for cheap overpriced junk produced in industrialized nations.  It is so transparent only someone with the awareness of a kid on a sugar rush would miss it.  The haitian people wanted to rebel.  Wanted a voice in their own future.  Wanted to pursue a life of liberty and happiness..  What did they get.  A UN peacekeeping force propping up some puppet government who were exploiting these people over badly and will continue to do so after the dust from the Earthquake settles.  The exploitive we have a gun pointed at your head so get down and start doing our bidding have forced themselves into this type of behaviour from moving from subsistence into negativesistence farming.  There only alternative is to  and plunder other countries aka colonize.  The British empire.   and plunder to feed the preferred population.  The USA  and plunder to feed the preferred population.  The Japaneese  and plunder to feed the preferred population.  The germans  and plunder to feed the preferred population.  How many countries are moving from industrialized to Agrarian.  Are there any advances in agrarian acreage.  The second world war followed on the heels of a famine created by poor farming practices coupled with drought due to increased sunspot activity.  You get starving people they will do most anything to survive.  Including but not limited to killing other people.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on August 24, 2010, 05:26:08 PM
H. L. Mencken wrote in The American Mercury for April 1924 that the aim of public education is not "to fill the young of the species with knowledge and awaken their intelligence. ... Nothing could be further from the truth. The aim ... is simply to reduce as many individuals as possible to the same safe level, to breed and train a standardized citizenry, to put down dissent and originality. That is its aim in the United States."
Comment: The full passage reads: "The aim of public education is not to spread enlightenment at all; it is simply to reduce as many individuals as possible to the same safe level, to breed and train a standardized citizenry, to down dissent and originality. That is its aim in the United States, whatever pretensions of politicians, pedagogues other such mountebanks, and that is its aim everywhere else."
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on August 24, 2010, 05:27:38 PM
A great reading for anyone who does not want to be a slave.http://www.sott.net/articles/show/212383-V...aduation-Speech
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on August 24, 2010, 05:31:56 PM
It is interesting that the so called “Captains of Industry” (also referred to as the “Robber Barons”) all lacked formal education. Even Bill Gates was a drop out who never finished a degree, yet he too funds education. Andrew Carnegie, the steel magnate, never made it past third grade and others never finished grammar school. Yet, these were men who built major universities and constantly promoted the virtues of higher education. The traditional idea is that these men understood the advantages of being educated as opposed to their own experience of “learning the hard way”. However, it is far more likely they realized that without conformity to a system, others would soon realize the very same thing about success they had and this knowledge would increase the competition. There is an ancient story about a child full of promise, so intelligent, that his parents and teachers encouraged him to take an equal interest in anything that caught his eye, whenever he showed he was attracted to it. Years later, after having tried a hundred different arts and all the customary roads to success, he was penniless and miserable; so he decided to take a job. He found himself in the office of a billionaire whom he soon saw was fairly stupid and capable of understanding only one idea at a time. ‘You can have the job’ said the billionaire. ‘Thank you’ replied the brilliant man, ‘but I would like to ask you just one question’. ‘And what is that?’ ‘I have read a great deal about you; how you understand everything you see, and how your extraordinary energy and wide interests have made you what you are. But I don’t find you to be like that at all. Furthermore, I have tried since I was a child to be like that and – look at me. ‘Don’t take it to hard son’ replied the tycoon; ‘but billionaires like me pay people to write things like that. First, it flatters us; secondly, it ensures us a good supply of labor like yourself, people who never made the grade.’
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on August 24, 2010, 05:43:10 PM
When I was in grade school I noticed people didn't like to think for themselves.I noticed people felt good to have others think for them.I thought I had done well.Two college degrees,a job most of the time.Now at age 58 I realize most of my life has been spent trapped in the financial myths that keep 90% of us broke.At age 35 I learned a few things but those things didn't take me far enough.I was not a millionaire in spite of the knowledge I gained at age 35.I have learned more at ages 56-58 but still not how to have a million dollars.At age 58 most employers will not hire me prefering not to hire anyone over 50.So they have thrown me away.Like a used napklin.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on August 24, 2010, 05:48:57 PM
I have learned to use real estate as a way to gain wealth and that to avoid stocks,bonds and mutual funds altogether.Maybe by age 66 I will be a millionaire.For now I am retired and no longer need a JOB to survive.I am learning once again to do things at my own pace and to think for myself.
www.lifestylesunlimited.com will be my mentor.And I want to start their program in 2 and 1/2 years.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on August 24, 2010, 09:20:45 PM
Comment: The full passage reads: "The aim of public education is not to spread enlightenment at all; it is simply to reduce as many individuals as possible to the same safe level, to breed and train a standardized citizenry, to down dissent and originality. That is its aim in the United States, whatever pretensions of politicians, pedagogues other such mountebanks, and that is its aim everywhere else."
Yes, exactly.  Another source of information I knew as a particular spiritual teacher said about the same thing:  Education either wants to make people stupid and compliant, or else piss students off so much they become revolutionaries and end up in prison or dead (read: Symbionese Liberation Army; KKK; Weather Underground; Stormfront.org; etc).

All these agenda-obsessed nitwits will learn what a mistake it is to perform kow-tows before arrogant oligarchs.

REEDIT LATER:
Back on topic,
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Home-sales-plunge-27-pct-to-apf-2949326144.html?x=0

As I said somewhere before, "Double dip?"
The "economic stimulus" only pumped up the deflating balloon 'bubble'.  Now that the money's not there, the balloon continues to deflate.  Double-dip, right?

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: X00013 on August 25, 2010, 11:57:01 PM
DJI is going down,down,down. I love it!!!!! You gotta love a home garden!! Fuckm they all deserve whats comn
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on August 26, 2010, 03:11:52 AM
DJI is going down,down,down. I love it!!!!! You gotta love a home garden!! Fuckm they all deserve whats comn
Very, good, x00013, but if you have a garden, then be prepared to defend it with your life when the economy crashes.  That means a gun and ammo in large quantities.  Someone hungry will see the garden unless you hide it, somehow.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: sparks on August 26, 2010, 03:16:34 AM
DJI is going down,down,down. I love it!!!!! You gotta love a home garden!! Fuckm they all deserve whats comn
 
     Imagine if it went so low they had to close the whole thing down.  Who would suffer.  It is illegal to run a gaming operation unless licensed by the state.   But you can gamble anywhere anytime with a number of different bookies who call themselves financial investment firms.  Insurance companies are the biggest bookies around.  They take your premium money pay as few claims as they can welch on as many as they can and play the stock market with the balance.  Bush and Obama and their band of thieves took peoples hard earned money and gave it to underwriters.  The underwriters couldnt pay the claims and still can not pay the claims on bad paper.  Who gives a fuck how many underwriters go south. Who cares how many mortgage holders go south. If there isnt some bagman knocking on your door every month you could go out and spur an economy based on goods and services rendered for reasonable profit instead of slaving away for some debt salesman.  I think it would be best if everybody just stopped paying any debt at all.  This would bring such chaos to financial markets  (yes they do buy and sell your contracts)  that they would all fold.  Every fucking last one of them.  With nobody to support them they would join the unemployment ranks.  Then their vast skills of bullshit peddling could be employed with speaking their bullshit to plants in the fields as they harvest crops for people that need food not debt.  The bullshit would enhance the growth of the plant instead of the growth of the national debt.  So if Obama wants to stimulate the economy just forgive all debt along with investment into infrastructure agriculture energy and transportation and stop giving our earnings away to thieves and murderers.
    He wont though he is owned and operated.  Fucking tool. 
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on August 26, 2010, 03:22:09 AM
     Imagine if it went so low they had to close the whole thing down. ...
If people didn't have money, they'd be a whole lot less civilized than they are now.  Think of the Wild West?  Every man for himself.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: WilbyInebriated on August 26, 2010, 03:26:24 AM
Very, good, x00013, but if you have a garden, then be prepared to defend it with your life when the economy crashes.  That means a gun and ammo in large quantities.  Someone hungry will see the garden unless you hide it, somehow.

--Lee
very, good, big minok, then x would have strange meat to go with those veggies... and it doesn't necessarily mean a gun, there are other ways to 'skin a snake'.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: sparks on August 26, 2010, 03:40:36 AM
  BigM

    I thought x was talking about the Dow Jones Industrial Average.   People will still have money if they have meaningful employment.  The financial markets can crash and the guy trying to make a buck painting a house for a house that needs painting will get paid.  The farmer will get paid for his crops.  The truck driver will get paid for transporting the crops.  The nurse will get paid for nursing etc etc.  Why should someone get paid for gambling even when he loses.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on August 26, 2010, 03:55:34 AM
  BigM
    I thought x was talking about the Dow Jones Industrial Average. ...
He probably was.
Quote
...   People will still have money if they have meaningful employment. ...
Not if the economy totally crashes.  No money at all.  The same thing happened in Rome before the Dark Ages.  German Teutonic barbarians sacked the city.
For the rest of your post:  I agree in principle.  However, barter will probably be all that's left unless there's widespread social chaos with bloodshed.  Barter works on a small scale, which, hopefully, people will practice instead of killing each other.
Quote
... Why should someone get paid for gambling even when he loses.
Gambling is a civilized pastime and a business, yes?  When the economy crashes, it's all over for 'gambling.'  Survival will be the only game in town that people will play.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: X00013 on August 27, 2010, 01:45:20 AM
  BigM

    I thought x was talking about the Dow Jones Industrial Average.   People will still have money if they have meaningful employment.  The financial markets can crash and the guy trying to make a buck painting a house for a house that needs painting will get paid.  The farmer will get paid for his crops.  The truck driver will get paid for transporting the crops.  The nurse will get paid for nursing etc etc.  Why should someone get paid for gambling even when he loses.


I am talking about the dow, when that dow guy needs a sandwich and cant plant a seed because hes so fuckn smart/stupid  he/she deserves to die.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: X00013 on August 27, 2010, 01:49:45 AM
Have some fun, call your stock broker, tell them you want to buy rice.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on August 27, 2010, 05:48:48 AM
I am talking about the dow, when that dow guy needs a sandwich and cant plant a seed because hes so fuckn smart/stupid  he/she deserves to die.
Yeah, I think I see:
The 'yuppie' is caught up in his/her pursuit of the once-almighty $$$, and when they're gone, he/she doesn't know how to get by without modern comforts---like Starbucks, Wal-Mart, Kroger, Safeway, etc., etc., etc.

Right, x00013?

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on September 02, 2010, 01:16:44 PM
I found this website on chemistry.Its a forum actually.This thread may not be the right one for it but I wanted to leave a link here somewhere. http://sciencemadness.org/talk/
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: sparks on September 03, 2010, 11:14:53 AM
  I was in a bank   (I like talking to the people that work there as opposed to dealing with a machine) and witnessed an economic disaster a spoiled brat and his escort were experiencing.  The young man was on the phone to what I could make out was his father.  His account was empty and he was in need of funds to do whatever he needed to do.  He was trying to coerce his father into depositing funds into his account.  The father from what I could make out was the administrator of a trust fund set up by grandpa for the benefit of his dna projections into the future.  Daddy couldnt transfer any money to sonnys account because A. The trust had dried up.  B.  The old man emptied the trust account a long time ago.  Well the kid is making a huge scene using 4 letter words and the ho he was with is just floating around the bank so you can tell she was pretty well acquainted with Sonny's way of supporting himself.  The kid storms out of the place and jumps into his minny hummer with the usual display of footpedal power exiting the banklot.  What job is that kid going to be able to perform.  I have no idea what percentage of the wealthy are taking a tumble but the above problem is because for some reason we feel our descendants will get a boost in life from our accrued wealth.   Grandpa would have done better service to his offspring by changing his wealth into dollar bills and burning them in front of Daddy so that daddy woudl get off his ass and do something besides being a consumer.  This is not a typical sceanario in America.  Most Americans work 50 hours a week not including the time travelling to and from work preparing to go to work repairing and maintaining the car that takes them to work and maybe getting a little time on a Sunday to do what they are into.  Most of the time this is to sleep in a little because your so damned tired out from the rest of the week and spend some time with family and friends on a Sunday afternoon.  Monday looms and its back to the grind. 
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on September 03, 2010, 02:28:54 PM
By kid I assume a young 20 something?My dad always taught us by example.There was no family business but my dad held down jobs in his early years that he got laid off from.After about age 30 he didn't hold those jobs anymore.He got tired of being laid off(about 4 times).I learned from him.That I had to work for myself.No one was going to give me money.As a result I worked in jobs that I had to quit.I never got laid off.I did get fired twice but survived anyway.The bills still came in even if I was fired.The landlord still expected his rent.Etc.I learned to go back to work anyway.The people I owed money to still had faith in me even if my faith in me had been temporally shaken.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on September 03, 2010, 08:41:17 PM
I found this website on chemistry.Its a forum actually.This thread may not be the right one for it but I wanted to leave a link here somewhere. http://sciencemadness.org/talk/
Riiiiiight!!!!  Now you're talking my language.  I did rocket fuel research on launch vehicles for decades until I switched to jets and naval architecture(ship engineering) to extend my mental interests further.

I do suppose there are conspiracy sites on the 'Web devoted to explosives handling and manufacture, but that's a really, (really!) dangerous thing to get into.  On the other hand, there are survival uses for this information.  But, whoever does this:  BE. CAREFUL.

On topic:
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2010/09/03/john-lott-economy-unemployment-milton-friedman-depression-paul-krugman-newt/

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/18/opinion/18krugman.html?_r=2&hp

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2010/09/03/john-lott-economy-unemployment-milton-friedman-depression-paul-krugman-newt/

I say even if the government does anything, it won't help.  To wit:  The national debt load---including the potential $1,000,000,000,000 in "credit default 'swaps'  "---cannot be paid off unless we all lived to be 10,000 yrs old, or more.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: X00013 on September 04, 2010, 06:31:42 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAaQNACwaLw

grow your seeds, and hold arms.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: X00013 on September 04, 2010, 07:11:33 AM
in general http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnXh2kMb5iQ
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: X00013 on September 04, 2010, 07:18:58 AM
Thank Earth some people still remember what America stands for http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4UUJdckLwU
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: sparks on September 04, 2010, 05:29:41 PM
     A free mind is a very powerful mind.  It threatens those that seek to imprison the mind.  A free mind can find its way to different states of awareness.  When you become aware if you have the balls to you will sacrafice the comfort of being led to having to lead.  Taking responsiblity for your life and not having to lay it at the door of others to make your life happen for you.  It is a subtle war of wills that has been waged since man ate from the tree of knowlege.  The gardener "nature"  has this competition going for reality to be a product of competition and discourse over crumbs it steals from the lifeforce.   The serpent was used by ancient mindfuckers because of the natural response of humans to dangerous poisonous snakes that cohabited trees with primeval man.  A monkey sees a poisonous snake in a tree it communicates it to his family and friends so they dont get dead.    They used images like the snake and a lush garden to conjure up some sort of guilt trip for the masses/  Dumb down folks.  Dont want to be like Adam and Eve and think for yourselves.  Do as the bilbe says to do.  Do what God wants you to and that is above everything else is stay mindless.  Run around like an animal just doing animal things because the God of Nature is the one and eternal god.  Maybe round here in the world of the unaware this God of the garden of Eden reigns.  This God who cares little about your mind and entraps your spirit in this form.  Would I settle for eternal life being an animal.  A mindless extension of a physical process whose only purpose is to perpectuate the games for the gardeners entertainment.  Fuck no.  Thanks gardener but no thanks. 
Title: Re: I see an economic disaster coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on September 05, 2010, 02:00:18 AM
@sparks
With respect to your Reply #669,

David Icke, the conspiracy author, says about the same thing you did; he just adds a personal God to the mix.  Several other things along that line, too.  On the other hand, I actually do agree with the premise of your post.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Icke

More on topic:
http://finance.yahoo.com/family-home/article/110581/5-doomsday-scenarios-for-the-us-economy
http://finance.yahoo.com/real-estate/article/109747/the-housing-market-recession-is-not-over?mod=realestate-buy

---Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on September 05, 2010, 03:52:33 PM
Heres a website that talks about taking care of your tools.Something thats always useful to know.http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/article/0,,1552611,00.html?xid=yahoo-answers&partner=yes
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on September 05, 2010, 03:54:33 PM
More on the same.http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080722142403AA7KcO7
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on September 05, 2010, 03:59:25 PM
More about the USA money system.http://www.andygause.com/
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on September 05, 2010, 04:11:10 PM
Some details on the federal reserve.http://www.federalreserve.gov/boarddocs/testimony/1997/19970916.htm
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: sparks on September 05, 2010, 07:44:47 PM
   If I go to a federal reserve bank and give them a bunch of federal reserve notes I can purchase a us treasruy note.  This tbill is a form of money that is created by taxation of the countries citizens.  The treasury department is obliged to payout in federal reserve notes upon surrender of the tbill.  Since the federal reserve notes can be exchanged for tbills it is obviously a shell game where you have to try to figure out which shell has anything of value associated with it.  The federal reserve puts its paper promissary notes into circulation by purchasing treasury notes.  They are loosing interest in buying treasury notes because the American people now owe way more to the federal reserve than it can possibly make in 3 or 4 lifetimes never mind the interest the federal reserve system charges for doing nothing besides investing in the ability of the federal government to wrest wealth from its citizens.  So instead they are all about seizing assets now.  We need to have the elected officials print an exchange currency based directly on the GNp  You can let the federal reserve print all the debt notes it wants.  The new currency will be excluded from the purchase of investment instruments.  It will be strictly seperated from glorified  chips that our currency now consists of.  You want to buy a home to live in fine.  You want to buy a home and turn around and sell it for more then go play the bankers game.  You work hard and save your real money and show the ability to purchase a better home or a boat or something then you are free to do so with real money.  Not government issued  chips.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on September 06, 2010, 11:54:36 PM
   If I go to a federal reserve bank and give them a bunch of federal reserve notes I can purchase a us treasruy note.  This tbill is a form of money that is created by taxation of the countries citizens.  The treasury department is obliged to payout in federal reserve notes upon surrender of the tbill. ...
Okay, yeah, but that stops---and all other economic activity as well---when a run on the Federal Reserve and commercial banks ensues before the economy collapses, yes?
Quote
  Since the federal reserve notes can be exchanged for tbills it is obviously a shell game where you have to try to figure out which shell has anything of value associated with it.  The federal reserve puts its paper promissary notes into circulation by purchasing treasury notes.
That would cause uncontrollable inflation, eventually, wouldn't it?
Quote
So instead they are all about seizing assets now.
It's been like that for some time now.
Quote
We need to have the elected officials print an exchange currency based directly on the GNp
The COLA (Cost of Living Allowance) for SSI/SSDI/Soc. Security was considered in the past to have been tied to the national inflation rate, but that provision was shelved awhile ago.  People might have been able to live inside their means, then, as now, if they did?

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: sparks on September 07, 2010, 12:55:07 AM
   The purchase of Tbills by the federal reserve is a futures purchase.  Their main assets besides the physical assets is tbills.  These are promissary notes that state that the taxpayers of the United States will repay in goods and services and any other pursuit of happiness the feds can put their greedy lazy fucking hands on to the owner of the note.  So this privatized corporation for the services rendered own you me our children and there children and there children.  What service does the Federal Reserve provide besides run a check clearing house that is totally being obsoleted by electronic payment processing. What do these people do to allow them to enslave us and not only enslave us but for generations to come.  They even turn a profit at being a clearinghouse.  Woodrow Wilson was a tool a puppet.   Who imposed the income tax and established the Federal Reserve all in one administration.  What followed right after this.  Wars stockmarket crashes inflation more wars more recessions more inflation.  Your right an economic disaster is coming for the federal govenment.  People will be forced to go underground more and more and more.  The federal government wont have anybody left to tax because on paper no one will be working.  There recourse will be to issue more tbills to the federal reserve in exchange for currency drops.  Everyone knows that these bills are getting worthless so if the federal government wants to stay in tact it better just welch on the tbills.  This makes the Federal Reserve Insolvent and it goes away.  Start printing money directly tied to the GNP.  The GNP to citizen ratio drops pull that much money out of circulation.  The GNP increases add that much money into circulation.  These are trade instruments not debt notes.  Use seashells like the indiians did anything but green paper with pictures of politicians on it.  If they dont what is going to happen is the US is going to blow up.  And when the dust settles the corporations will move in and rebuild one nation under the net profit and loss statement.  Why was it necessary to dump trillions of dollars into the banking system because the stockmarket crashed.  It was necessary because ever since 911 the federal govenment was transferring into defense contractors hands huge amounts of taxpayers futures.  This money was not being put back into circulation in the United States.  It didnt trickle down it gushed out.  The stockholders of the defense contractors are not really interested in how poor the United States gets it is more interested in how fast will their economy bust.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: truthbeknown on September 07, 2010, 01:08:25 AM
........and then the end will come....

 :o
J.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: sparks on September 07, 2010, 01:28:38 AM
  I can see it now.  It will be hows the weather down in Raytheon son.  Not bad Dad but I heard there was an earthquake out in Lockheed.  Well your sister is getting transferred from Verizon to McDonalds in a prisoner swap.  Seems like change of duty gets more bang out of a worker for the buck invested keeping it alive.  Well your mother says hello I think.  My control chip is getting kind of blinky these days and Im not sure what program they are letting through so it could be your mother or that damn trojan horse virus that started in ATT land last month.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on September 10, 2010, 07:14:44 PM
@sparks
Regarding your posted Reply #679,

Who are you writing to?  You're not quoting anyone in your post.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: sparks on September 11, 2010, 07:46:42 AM
   I was responding to Truth be Knowns comment.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: X00013 on September 12, 2010, 03:38:47 AM
I have a garden, and I cant say enuff about the auto shotgun, hence lmao to see the gun kick ass for the first time in a movie http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrEnjx2GiXE
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: X00013 on September 12, 2010, 03:41:51 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4ebtj1jR7c
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on September 13, 2010, 07:41:00 AM
I keep hearing about getting a gun and get ammo for it.To protect your food and your property.I was a junior member of the NRA for two months in high school back in the 60's.They taught us mostly about gun safety and how to aim.I learned too you never,never aim at a human.Keep the gun aimed down at the ground all the time.In case of accidential discharge.In the Hoover towns in the early 1930's people chose to live in tents and help each other and not use guns to take what they needed or wanted(not the majority anyway).I would hope if it came to putting the metal to the petal.That people would focus more on helping each other than on using guns to take what you needed.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on September 13, 2010, 07:44:13 AM
I'm not against guns,Just against using them on people.I prefer to be asked for help and not robbed at gunpoint.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: truthbeknown on September 13, 2010, 08:28:31 AM
I'm not against guns,Just against using them on people.I prefer to be asked for help and not robbed at gunpoint.triffid


It will be very interesting to see how people treat one another when we have a devastating earthquake in the USA soon.

J. :o
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on September 13, 2010, 10:48:41 PM
I have a garden, and I cant say enuff about the auto shotgun, hence lmao to see the gun kick ass for the first time in a movie http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrEnjx2GiXE
There's also a semi-auto, drum-fed one in the movie, "Machete."

You're right, it was *devastating* in the movie.  The recoil kick should have been awesome.

Terrific self defense weapon against "Night of the Living Dead" assailants, if it's legal in your locality?

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on September 16, 2010, 03:27:22 PM
 The goverment can only do so much to hold jobs for it's people but the people have to buy and shop at the stores that have american made  and shop at the mom-pop stores, no-one is talking about living in the past, but by trying to live high on the hog and buying everything dirt cheap, has caught up with us, and now we are blaming our President for not putting us all to work this very minute, all Presidents try no matter who they are or party affiliation to keep the american people working but we must help by buying the things that we need that are american made. triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on September 17, 2010, 02:10:18 AM
The goverment can only do so much to hold jobs for it's people but the people have to buy and shop at the stores that have american made ...
I was thinking of that while doing engineering research.  I'd like to concentrate on American manufacturers(naval engineering diesel suppliers) but foreign companies have bigger, more efficient engines(Wartsila marine diesels in Finland).  American Catepillar diesels comes closest.  GE LM6000+ gensets are adequate.
(I'm researching the design of more capable warships to tolerate missile battle damage from Russian antishipping missiles.)

But, you have a point if you imply, or state outright(?), Americans need to become more self sufficient in products they can make themselves and not depend on foreigners for what they want to buy.
Quote
... and shop at the mom-pop stores, no-one is talking about living in the past, but by trying to live high on the hog and buying everything dirt cheap, has caught up with us, ...
Ah, the American dream!  Everything for ME NOW! and keep up with the Joneses next door!  I'm smart enough to know that won't last forever.  Greed is it's own reward/punshiment.
Quote
... and now we are blaming our President for not putting us all to work this very minute, all Presidents try no matter who they are or party affiliation to keep the american people working but we must help by buying the things that we need that are american made. triffid
Very good.  My point above exactly.
When people realize the party is ending soon, and they have no money to throw around on unnecessary things, they'll be a lot less civilized and law-abiding if they're scared to death of starving.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on September 18, 2010, 03:58:10 AM
When people realize the party is ending soon, and they have no money to throw around on unnecessary things, they'll be a lot less civilized and law-abiding if they're scared to death of starving.
The money in housing market is more precarious and less plentiful than many believe:

http://news.firedoglake.com/2010/08/31/data-suggests-imminent-spike-in-foreclosures/

I recall a few days ago that a financial reporter on a news program said that 5,000,000+ American  households are in default right now, and the banks are simply allowing the homeowners to ignore monthly payments---which the banks are eating in lost profits.  (Not good for their bottom line.)

If the banks called in the foreclosures at once(not likely at all!), the housing market would collapse.

That's what the reporter said and I agree.  As it is, house prices are forecast to continue falling for at least 2 more fiscal quarters in Western states and Florida in particular.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: truthbeknown on September 18, 2010, 05:40:24 AM
The money in housing market is more precarious and less plentiful than many believe:

http://news.firedoglake.com/2010/08/31/data-suggests-imminent-spike-in-foreclosures/

I recall a few days ago that a financial reporter on a news program said that 5,000,000+ American  households are in default right now, and the banks are simply allowing the homeowners to ignore monthly payments---which the banks are eating in lost profits.  (Not good for their bottom line.)

If the banks called in the foreclosures at once(not likely at all!), the housing market would collapse.

That's what the reporter said and I agree.  As it is, house prices are forecast to continue falling for at least 2 more fiscal quarters in Western states and Florida in particular.

--Lee


So the question may be asked.....Is anything positive going to come from all of this that is happening?

 :)
J.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on September 18, 2010, 02:38:09 PM
One of the reasons I'm not buying houses is that I believe the bottom to the housing market has not been reached.I'm content to wait another two years then start buying again.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on September 18, 2010, 02:41:12 PM
The news is positive only if you intend to buy houses later.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: truthbeknown on September 19, 2010, 08:13:52 AM
Maybe we all need to start growing our own food as much as possible.
Well, back to the Farm...

J. ;)
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on September 19, 2010, 08:11:15 PM
I believe with you that people growing more food wherever they live is a good solution.I heard of one family in calif raising chickens in their back yard plus they had every square inch of their paid for house growing food that they could eat or sell/Their driveway was filled with crops.They used to be the weird people in the neighborhood but they made the news one night when I was watching.Two years ago what they were doing made a lot of sense to their neighbors.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on September 19, 2010, 08:11:53 PM
1. Scam artist, adept at taking the savings from old folks, or in the corporate world adept at securing government payouts and pocketing them without delivering on what you got the funds for in the first place.
2. Organized theft project manager - able to create massive disturbances in the poor parts of town to occupy all legal agencies, then mobilizing large numbers in the rich parts of town to steal everything from the houses of the politicians and CEOs, who will be the only ones left with anything to steal.
1 and 2 are professions growing in this country
When you start seeing the wealthy fleeing our country to keep from getting abducted/rolled/killed you will know we are at the end. Within 30 to 40 years the United States will be just like Mexico is now. Our population will be mostly hispanic in origin within 20 years.
This is the fault of our leadership, corporate and political, all parties, across the board, who are more interested in lining their pockets and taking care of themselves and their cronies than they are with the well being of the general population and the fabric of the country. History books will note that America as we knew it lasted about 300 years before crumbling like the Roman empire, the French aristocracy, and the Russian Tsars before them.
However, if every incumbent now in power is voted out starting in the upcoming election and for the next few years, and IF the voting public demands a COMPLETE change in how EVERYTHING political and corporate is done now as well as demanding that america become like other countries as respects border and immigrant control, import tariffs, etc. are done, there MAY be time to cure the malignancy which has metasized in our country.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on September 20, 2010, 08:53:29 PM
So the question may be asked.....Is anything positive going to come from all of this that is happening?
 :)
J.
Well, no, as triffid and I have implied in our posts, the economy will collapse, and no one person has anything to do with it.  This has happened for all of recorded history in a cyclic pattern.
truthbeknown, Reply # 694 said:
Quote
Maybe we all need to start growing our own food as much as possible.
Well, back to the Farm...
J. ;)
triffid basically agreed in the next Post, #695.

I believe I said something similar to what the two above said awhile ago, and it was probably on this thread.  And, I agree.  San Franciscans are beginning to turn small urban parks into large gardens with The City's approval.  So, they all have a point.

@triffid
In regard to your post #697,  it's excellent.  But, I'd say we don't have 20-40 years for all that to happen.  People are becoming furious as we write all this on this thread.  It's mostly the "politics as usual", which raises Americans' anger.  Deservedly so.  Do I recommend anything to do as a remedy?  No.   Whatever I do can be changed or discredited by someone else.  Anything I, or anyone else, does.  That's why I don't get up in caught the world's "mishegas." (mee-sha-gaas) (Yiddish for "crazy", "eccentric")

As I think I said before, I'll wait and see what happens; trusting my luck all the while.

*Lee picks up his soda; asks for the popcorn bucket, "please"*

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: giantkiller on September 22, 2010, 04:37:57 AM
Successful daytrading relies on other's dependencies and disasters.  ;D
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on September 22, 2010, 11:50:37 AM
Another delightful conclusion.http://www.news.com.au/business/breaking-news/us-government-hiding-true-amount-of-debt/story-e6frfkur-1225926567256
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on September 22, 2010, 11:58:30 AM
I don't if you guys saw the same news I saw yesterday but 6 city council members of Bell,Calif were arrested  for misuse of public funds.It seemed that they are guilty of giving themselves insane raises for doing a part time job.4 of the 6 gave themselves at least $100,000 a year salary.The worst offender gave himself something like $750,000 last year.Just think what would happen if members of congress started being arrested for misuse of the public's money!
triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on September 22, 2010, 12:01:04 PM
Of course the Bell,Calif city council keep raising the taxes on everyone else there.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on September 22, 2010, 12:10:32 PM
Sorry,My mistake 8 were arrested,not 6.here is a link to the story.http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/09/21/california.bell.arrests/index.html?section=cnn_latest   triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on September 22, 2010, 08:55:33 PM
Another delightful conclusion.http://www.news.com.au/business/breaking-news/us-government-hiding-true-amount-of-debt/story-e6frfkur-1225926567256
And I agree with the article.  Credit default swap "derivatives" amounted to $1,000,000,000,000 when they were brought to the attention of the Govt and public, and they're still being sold!  There's a lot of incentive to continue business as usual, and money is the reason.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on September 22, 2010, 09:01:53 PM
I don't if you guys saw the same news I saw yesterday but 6 city council members of Bell,Calif were arrested  for misuse of public funds.It seemed that they are guilty of giving themselves insane raises for doing a part time job.4 of the 6 gave themselves at least $100,000 a year salary.The worst offender gave himself something like $750,000 last year.
They also deliberately raised property taxes to finance this "Ponzi scheme".  I wouldn't be surprised of the perpetrators die before their time.
Quote
Just think what would happen if members of congress started being arrested for misuse of the public's money!
Unfortunately!! they make the laws and can exempt themselves from what they want to do to other people.  However, they need the armed forces behind them to make it stick and hold.  We'll see if that happens in the future.  The public outnumbers and outguns the politicians.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on September 23, 2010, 09:39:16 AM
More bad news.There are 16 parts to this series.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8df9-oADP_c&feature=related
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: MW383 on September 24, 2010, 03:14:00 AM
economic disaster?
surely.
EU currently being destroyed. This will expand beyond EU soon.
After this there will be further 'reorganizations' of wealth.
You will see as economic crashes. The media will go wild.
Bottom Line = attempt at world system
Result = failure. Why? Rebols to true system will always FAIL.
By 2028, assuming 1 is still alive, all bad systems gone.
Just rule will preside.
So as for current systems... Kiss them all goodbye and their masters.
2028.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on September 24, 2010, 03:48:02 AM
economic disaster?
surely. ...
I agree with all but your time frame, that's all.  I say it'll be a lot worse than your description and a lot sooner.
Quote

... EU currently being destroyed. This will expand beyond EU soon. ...
Yep. Exactly.  Greece is at the top of the list.  Ireland is next.  Other Europeans are already requiring higher interest rates for bonds sold to these countries---and it's useless anyway:  They very likely can't pay them off.  And that's with the Europeans actually trying to do something constructive by lowering sovereign Gov't spending.  Their constituent populations sometimes object strenuously to the austerity measures.  Ultimately, they'll fail.  So, you're right.
Quote
... After this there will be further 'reorganizations' of wealth.
You will see as economic crashes. The media will go wild.
Bottom Line = attempt at world system
Result = failure. ...
That's fine, as long as someone survives.  I rather believe there'll be "blood in the streets" in Asian countries when people see they have no future compared to what they had in the past.  They'll turn into raging mobs like in the "Resident Evil" series of movies.  They just won't be zombies; they'll be real people.  Then they'll be dead.  Except those who can live in the wilderness.
Quote
... Why? Rebols to true system will always FAIL.
By 2028, assuming 1 is still alive, all bad systems gone.
Just rule will preside. ...
As in Second Coming?  I don't quite follow the last sentence.  I do have my own religious beliefs in that regard(Messiah), but I usually don't discuss them unless having someone bring it up.
Quote
So as for current systems... Kiss them all goodbye and their masters.
2028.
They'll be gone, you're right.  Precisely.  I'll be 79 by then.  If I'm still alive.  If what I say happens actually does, I'd head for the mountains rather than die in a city.

I say it'll happen a lot sooner.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on September 24, 2010, 02:05:03 PM
I didnot think the recession had ended.Heres some words on it from a rich guy.http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20100923/bs_nm/us_buffett_recession;_ylt=ArSSkniXGfrzQPA_DFnEUCNg.3QA;_ylu=X3oDMTE1c2EzMTNuBHBvcwMyBHNlYwN5bi1jaGFubmVsBHNsawN3YXJyZW5idWZmZXQ-
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: MW383 on September 24, 2010, 06:16:54 PM
Lee,

Yes, will be much worse than my simple statements. Economic problems only part of the overall breakdown/destruction phase. You obviously already know this. The process already unfolding all around us. It takes a different viewpoint to see beyond what information the powers spoon feed people through controlled channels. Much background reorganization proceeding. Soon things will be in the foreground and everyone will know it. Again, it looks like you are already onboard here.

It is 'religion' (I do not like this word by the way) and it is no casual subject with me. There is only 1 correct system and it goes strictly by the 'Book'; zero deviations, not a single one, never or ever.  So I tend to shy away from the 'religion' word because it implies world based ideology. This correct system exists today, by the way, because it was started a time ago and was said to not end from that point forward. So a person has that going for them provided they find it and learn it.

Regarding 2028; bad phase complete, correct system running things. 2010-2019 probably not a good time to live. Survivors? Yes, and probably not many. Rotten people as part of the survivor group? I doubt it. 2012 = end? No, it is more likely that the rebol bums will make some kind of a move. They are locked into wrong calendar system (solar), thus 2012 important to them.

Keep an eye out for a couple of guys operating out of Jerusalem soon. It is only after they complete their mission, that the total 'show' can go on and this isn't the kind of show many will like. You seem to know this story so I will not repeat.

Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on September 24, 2010, 07:30:49 PM
Lee,
Yes, will be much worse than my simple statements. Economic problems only part of the overall breakdown/destruction phase. You obviously already know this. The process already unfolding all around us. ...
Indeed, I do and it is.
Quote
... It takes a different viewpoint to see beyond what information the powers spoon feed people through controlled channels. ...
I agree.  I'm just not so stupid as to believe it.
Quote
... Much background reorganization proceeding. ...
Oh, yeah.  I try to 'read between the lines', as it were, but you're right.
Quote
... Soon things will be in the foreground and everyone will know it. Again, it looks like you are already onboard here. ...
Yiddish saying:  "The wise man reads one word and knows two."
Quote
... It is 'religion' (I do not like this word by the way) and it is no casual subject with me. There is only 1 correct system and it goes strictly by the 'Book'; zero deviations, not a single one, never or ever. ...
Well, I'm not an Orthodox Jew, so I don't even take a literal interpretation of the Torah.  There is only one version of the Torah, however.  I do like that, but I still have a few logical objections to some language in the Torah.  That's my take on the subject, as perceived from my life experiences.
Quote
... So I tend to shy away from the 'religion' word because it implies world based ideology. ...
I resigned from my synagogue because I didn't necessarily want to follow the "followers of the followers".  Any man can lie or be delusional, so I read the words and take responsibility for their interpretation by me.
Quote
... This correct system exists today, by the way, because it was started a time ago and was said to not end from that point forward. So a person has that going for them provided they find it and learn it. ...
I agree in principle.  The Mayans said the same thing.  A new beginning in 2012 and I agree with that.
Quote
... Regarding 2028; bad phase complete, correct system running things. 2010-2019 probably not a good time to live. Survivors? Yes, and probably not many. Rotten people as part of the survivor group? I doubt it. ...
Yeah, true.  Depends of the free will of people, though.  The future isn't a concrete reality; it can change.
Quote
... 2012 = end? No, it is more likely that the rebol bums will make some kind of a move. They are locked into wrong calendar system (solar), thus 2012 important to them. ...
Well, some are continuing their habitual patterns.  If they don't change to a new paradigm, they'll suffer.
Quote
... Keep an eye out for a couple of guys operating out of Jerusalem soon. It is only after they complete their mission, that the total 'show' can go on and this isn't the kind of show many will like. ...
I don't know who these two are.  I don't take religious prophesy seriously and my reason is given below.
Quote
... You seem to know this story so I will not repeat.
I'm a descendant of Native American shamans and I had to learn this all by myself though mental ability alone.  My ancestors forgot until I remembered, which takes a certain amount of shamanistic talent.

My Path to the"Top Of The Mountain" is different than for just about anyone else.  That's not bad, however.  Just different.  My story is unique to me, so at some point, the English language fails in descriptive attributes.  For that reason, I won't go further.

But, I read obvious intelligence in your words and I respectively compliment you for that.  Allow me to encourage you, and all others who read this to do what it takes to survive, just short of despicable acts.  Everyone has the right to defend themselves against aggression.

Just do the best you can; be the best you can in your perception of right and wrong, and in the end, you should have nothing to be ashamed about and everything to be proud of that you did well.

L'Shalom  ("To Peace", a salutation)

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: X00013 on September 24, 2010, 10:48:22 PM
sell gold on nov1!! get gold for your sale. dont take paper money. buy a gun and use it! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3i1HXZ6WLg
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: X00013 on September 24, 2010, 11:13:37 PM
i report 4 u all, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZjf9C6atT4&feature=related

i dont lie
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on September 25, 2010, 05:03:11 PM
I found this article.On germany before WW2.http://www.rense.com/general92/dirty.htm
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on September 25, 2010, 05:06:42 PM
Another bad idea,  http://www.rense.com/general92/bill.htm
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on September 25, 2010, 05:35:06 PM
http://www.rense.com/PopulationControl.pdf  a brief history of population control,triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on September 25, 2010, 05:38:54 PM
http://www.kitco.com/ind/Turk/turk_sep202010.html
They are Printing too Much Money
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on September 26, 2010, 05:43:06 AM
http://www.kitco.com/ind/Turk/turk_sep202010.html
They are Printing too Much Money
Right.  They certainly are.  This is another piece of the puzzle:

http://money.cnn.com/2010/09/24/news/economy/Mortgage_modifications_redefaults/index.htm?source=cnn_bin&hpt=Sbin

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on September 28, 2010, 08:40:58 PM
sell gold on nov1!! get gold for your sale. dont take paper money. buy a gun and use it! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3i1HXZ6WLg
Okay, maybe you're right:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Home-prices-to-take-hit-next-apf-59620238.html?x=0

This doesn't look good.
Lots of people are on the edge of an economic cliff, effectively *thousands of feet high.*
The ripple effect to the overall economy could be enormous in the prices *falling*.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on September 29, 2010, 09:38:21 PM
triffid said:
Quote
http://www.kitco.com/ind/Turk/turk_sep202010.html
They are Printing too Much Money
Right.  They certainly are.  This is another piece of the puzzle:

http://money.cnn.com/2010/09/24/news/economy/Mortgage_modifications_redefaults/index.htm?source=cnn_bin&hpt=Sbin
Quote
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Home-prices-to-take-hit-next-apf-59620238.html?x=0

This doesn't look good.
Lots of people are on the edge of an economic cliff, effectively *thousands of feet high.*
The ripple effect to the overall economy could be enormous in the prices *falling*.
--Lee
LATEST INFO:
http://www.businessinsider.com/european-riot-10-of-the-population-goes-on-strike-in-brussels-2010-9

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1269734/Greece-debt-crisis-Austerity-measures-spark-riots-wont-shock-UK-workers.html

There are several other articles to cite, but you see my point?
Nobody gets it all their way all the time.  They don't want to see it that way, either. 

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=9795.0
Why do the "lurkers" act the way they do?  Both they and the typical citizen are greedy and the "lurkers" take advantage of that.  They don't give a d@mn about anyone but themselves.

And the economy will collapse because of both the "lurker's" and people's natural greed, which is human nature.  I'm not so great, myself.  But I'm not stupid, either.  I simply won't give that argument the religious connotations that any belief system deserves.  Most people don't change unless forced to, and they fight like hell when they do.

It's.  Going. To.  Get.  A.  Whole.  Lot.  Worse.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on October 01, 2010, 05:16:43 AM
Just another example of how badly the little guy is treated.New yorkers treated like rats in a laboratory experiment!Shame on them!  http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2010/09/30/2010-09-30_officials_slam_callous_dept_of_homeless_services_program_that_uses_200_families_.html


Its no wonder people want to arm themselves.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on October 01, 2010, 08:40:32 PM
Just another example of how badly the little guy is treated.New yorkers treated like rats in a laboratory experiment!Shame on them!  http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2010/09/30/2010-09-30_officials_slam_callous_dept_of_homeless_services_program_that_uses_200_families_.html
Its no wonder people want to arm themselves.
Riiiiiiiiight!!!!
In San Francisco, the cops want to get rid a homeless outreach seminar promoted by the mayor to help the drunks and addicts, but the cops want it moved out of Golden Gate Park because they want to arrest the homeless.  Something about 'public nuisance'.

"Ya can't win for losin'!!"

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on October 02, 2010, 04:25:44 PM
Heres a ray of hope for electric cars.$6500 for the kit and its uses some solar power too!         http://www.sunnev.com/
25 mph with a 30 mile range
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on October 02, 2010, 04:28:13 PM
The oil companies would freak if people bought these by the thousands.triffid



http://www.sunnev.com/
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: fritznien on October 02, 2010, 06:40:28 PM
The oil companies would freak if people bought these by the thousands.triffid



http://www.sunnev.com/
i don't think so. 25 mph and 30 mile range. not to mention that it won't pass safety standards.
its a home made gulf cart, might be ok in a gated community.
kits to convert almost any car to electric have been around for many years.
fritznien
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on October 03, 2010, 04:08:53 AM
Its one of the most practical solar powered cars that I have seen.Its a start in one of the right directions.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on October 11, 2010, 09:26:22 PM
Its one of the most practical solar powered cars that I have seen.Its a start in one of the right directions.triffid
@all
I remember seeing a few years ago that a really old man, with 60-70 years in electric motor technology, was becoming senile in his old age.
His niece suggested that he build an electric car to keep his mind sharp and occupied.  He was skeptical:  "I don't know anything about cars."

She had a response: "But, you do know about electric motors.  Build me an electric car."

"Okay."

This guy was such an expert, a younger man asked to be his apprentice, so the technology wouldn't be forgotten when the old man finally died.

That's my point.
Big companies won't listen to great tinkerers like the older Members and the avid hobbyists on OU.com

@triffid
The car is an adequate start, I agree.  But, it's an expensive experimental device.  Backfit and refit kits are available to compete with it.  Both concepts are valid.

NEWS NOTE:
A TV financial analyst announced on a news program that 20% of American households at risk of  being foreclosed upon in a few months.
It's worse:
Adjustable rate mortgages are resetting at higher and higher rates, in an ongoing process.

This is potentially dire.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Foreclosure-freeze-could-apf-3924319053.html?x=0

--Lee


P.S.
I haven't been able to log onto OU for several days.  Honest.
Did anyone else have that problem?
The error message implied "too much incoming blog traffic.  System was overloaded--Forbidden."
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on October 15, 2010, 11:40:15 PM
@all
NEWS NOTE:
A TV financial analyst announced on a news program that 20% of American households at risk of  being foreclosed upon in a few months.
It's worse:
Adjustable rate mortgages are resetting at higher and higher rates, in an ongoing process.

This is potentially dire.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Foreclosure-freeze-could-apf-3924319053.html?x=0
http://finance.yahoo.com/real-estate/article/111040/from-a-maine-house-a-national-foreclosure-freeze?mod=realestate-buy

This is the one that started it all?
1/3 of all existing home sales are   distressed/short sold/repossessed   houses.  This is bad.

Las Vegas could be down in home prices for years.  And years.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on October 31, 2010, 03:52:05 AM
http://finance.yahoo.com/real-estate/article/111040/from-a-maine-house-a-national-foreclosure-freeze?mod=realestate-buy

This is the one that started it all?
1/3 of all existing home sales are   distressed/short sold/repossessed   houses.  This is bad.

Las Vegas could be down in home prices for years.  And years.
Is there a solution?

http://www.moneynews.com/StreetTalk/Marshall-Plan-America-Housing/2010/10/29/id/375327

Everyone in this article will need to sacrifice, but will they???

The last paragraph in the article indicates the Gov't seems to be un-representative to the people.  They will probably be required to make political sacrifices as well.  But will they?!?!?!

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: Thaelin on October 31, 2010, 04:36:57 AM
Big M:
   If 2/3 of the people in this country stand up and "DEMAND" it, they have no other
alternative. Bring the assholes to trial, if they stand in the way, take them too. Force
tight regulations on banking practice and keep it in line.
   Now just to get them to move. Hmmmmm.

thay
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on November 01, 2010, 08:39:43 PM
Big M:
   If 2/3 of the people in this country stand up and "DEMAND" it, they have no other
alternative. Bring the assholes to trial, if they stand in the way, take them too. Force
tight regulations on banking practice and keep it in line.
Right.  You have a strong point in that regard.  That was actually done---after the Great Depression.  More than that:  Regulations against derivative trading were relaxed or eliminated after they were instituted in the (60's or 70's??).  Now the "Credit Default Swaps" are worth more than $1,000,000,000,000,000 !!!!!!!!   Not kidding!!!!!  There's a strong monetary incentive to continue selling derivatives.
Quote

   Now just to get them to move. Hmmmmm.
thay
They're outnumbered, it's true.  But they have the laws and guns on their side.  They'll also do anything to hold onto what they have now.  A Banzai! charge may be the only thing that will convince then people are serious about starving to death because of them.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on November 06, 2010, 05:34:20 AM
In the last two or three days the media have been reporting that food prices will keep getting higher.Now is the time to build up some stores of food.Canned goods are always good except for cranberry sauce.Canned goods can last 35 years but cranberries only one year.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on November 06, 2010, 05:49:03 AM
After Pearl harbour bombing by the japanese in 1941 concentration camps (10 of them  for about 120000 japanese americans were set up).So from 1942 until the war was over America had placed 120000 of its own citizens behind barbed wire and guns.It could happen again.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on November 06, 2010, 05:51:47 AM
The only thing they had done wrong was to be born with the face of the enemy.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: screaminvern on November 06, 2010, 02:12:45 PM
True statement triffid. The economic disaster that took place in 2008, millions of us are still feeling the effects. If everyone thinks that was bad, just wait for 2011. After everyone is in worse dire straits from all the extortion fees (TAXES) imposed on us next year, then in 2012, enter stage "Right" and stage "Left", a hand full of political figure heads riding white horses who claim to have the "answer" for every ones dilemma. More than likely, the biggest part of the "answer" will be the announcement of the "New World Order".

The first time I heard about the New World Order was from George H. Bush in a 1992 speech. December 2009, I heard Obama state in a speech, "Hopefully, by next year we will have the stipulations in place for the New World Order."

Wait, the Bushes are Republicans! Obama is a Democrat!    What the.....

After the two parties get done pointing fingers and throwing slanderous accusations at each other on TV, they go have a drink, play a round of golf, and compare portfolios.

I was 13 yrs. old when Watergate took place in 1972. I was shocked because these people were leaders of this country! I made it a point to pay attention to the political world since then, and it saddens me to have witnessed a steady decline in the fortitude and integrity of our governmental administration.     

     
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on November 07, 2010, 01:15:44 AM
In the last two or three days the media have been reporting that food prices will keep getting higher.
Absolutely.  No two ways about it.  And I'm not getting a COLA(Cost_of_Living_Allowance) from Social Security, this year or next.  No one is!?!?!
Quote
Now is the time to build up some stores of food.Canned goods are always good except for cranberry sauce.Canned goods can last 35 years but cranberries only one year.triffid
Got you covered on that one.  Every intelligent OU Member should be doing the same thing, but quietly.  Mormons like to advertise they stockpile food.  Hungry mobs could storm their houses?!?!

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on November 07, 2010, 01:20:39 AM
After Pearl harbour bombing by the japanese in 1941 concentration camps (10 of them  for about 120000 japanese americans were set up).So from 1942 until the war was over America had placed 120000 of its own citizens behind barbed wire and guns.It could happen again.triffid
The same thing happened in Eastern Europe during WWII.  You still have a point, I agree.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on November 07, 2010, 01:27:41 AM
The only thing they had done wrong was to be born with the face of the enemy.triffid
As I said, Eastern Europe in WWII.  Even the Nazi were and the Al-Qaeda extremists are all descendants of Abraham.  And they point fingers!?!?

They're Apocaypce-lovers and The Collapse could be caused by them if they do enough harm to SW Asia.  There are enough volunteers amongst their populations to do the job.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on November 07, 2010, 01:32:37 AM
@screaminvern
With respect to your whole post, Reply #733, pg. 49,

Exactly.  You're a newbie, but not as poorly opinionated or as delusional as a few around here.

What do you know about electronics?  Lots of threads to look at.

--Lee
 
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on November 08, 2010, 02:46:31 PM
A lot of the japanese americans were native born americans who were stripped of their freedoms and property due to some bigwig in washington DC.I will never trust government.A lot of the JA were born in this country and that did not matter one bit.They all had the face of the enemy.Too bad they were forced out of their homes and businesses.Too bad when the war ended they were forced to move again out into an america that hated japs.The ones who tried to go home found other people on their properties and hatred there too.
Most ended up going east when the west coast had been their original home.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on November 08, 2010, 07:52:32 PM
triffid said:
Quote
A lot of the japanese americans were native born americans who were stripped of their freedoms
Yeah, I know.  You're talking to the choir on that one.

I'm Native American and Viet Nam Era vet.   Politics!!!!!!  I can't say anything good about the subject of politics.

On topic:
Glen Beck's conservative TV cable show a few days ago had 2 interviewed guests who wrote books that had the gist:

The Chinese will either:  1) stop buying our debt  or  2) Demand payment at once --- maybe some combination of both??

After two weeks, it's pandemonium in the economy and possibly?!?! widespread social unrest in many large cities.  Everywhere.

Collapse after that??




Another source of information.  I'm not the only one saying it.
RE_EDIT:
More on a slightly different subject:

http://money.cnn.com/2010/10/29/news/economy/quantitative_easing_liquidity_trap/index.htm
http://money.cnn.com/2010/10/05/news/economy/Fed_quantitative_easing/index.htm

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on November 09, 2010, 09:46:52 PM
Have you noticed the price per oz of silver is jumping up there now?$27.12 per oz now.Back in april it was around $17.5 an oz.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on November 09, 2010, 09:50:05 PM
Time to hone all the repair skills you can.I just fixed an old hotplate today.It works so I'm talking about it.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on November 10, 2010, 02:15:42 AM
Have you noticed the price per oz of silver is jumping up there now?$27.12 per oz now.Back in april it was around $17.5 an oz.
Gold is doing the same, isn't it?  But, as I may have said somewhere before, "You can't eat a gold piece."  Try stockpiling cans of food, gun/ammo, soap, salt, tools, medicine, etc.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on November 10, 2010, 02:17:41 AM
Time to hone all the repair skills you can.I just fixed an old hotplate today.It works so I'm talking about it.triffid
Right.  Collect tools, a gun & ammo, food, medicine etc.  Hide these if possible.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on November 12, 2010, 04:41:01 AM
I watched a NOVA tv show on "Dogs Decoded".It seems that dogowners live longer than those without dogs.Maybe we need hunting dogs to help us survive whatever comes?triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on November 15, 2010, 12:41:15 PM
Need a used truck and a gun?Need an ak47? Get a free  ak47 when you buy your truck.I was surprised that the dealership was not located in Washington DC but its in Fla.http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101115/ap_on_fe_st/us_odd_truck_dealer_free_guns     triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on November 16, 2010, 01:36:58 AM
Need a used truck and a gun?Need an ak47? Get a free  ak47 when you buy your truck.I was surprised that the dealership was not located in Washington DC but its in Fla.http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101115/ap_on_fe_st/us_odd_truck_dealer_free_guns     triffid
Yeah, I heard of that, too.  At least the single shot(?) AK-47's are legal. I believe.

Got to go now.  They're closing this lab for a special class.
OKAY, LATER RE_EDIT:
They kind of cater to the lunatic fringe---revolutionary/anarchist, don't they?  Well, the Feds may have something to say about that eventually.

On topic:
This plan for the Gov't to print $600 billion and buy securities in order to jump-start the housing industry is drawing live verbal fire from Congress and the voters in due course, eventually, I think.  Inflation is the main concern.  Followed closely by the possibility of creating/maintaining another financial bubble.

This is more of the same old policies.  The only thing that's changed is that the economy is going to last a little longer.  That's about it.  It'll collapse anyway.  Just take longer to do it.



Something else:
Analysts warn at least one cable TV reporter to "watch out for the peripherals:  Ireland, Spain and Portugal."
They're just as vulnerable as they always were.  For the same reason we are:  Their bubble was bailed out by the EU and/or the IMF.  Not to mention Greece.  I expect fresh riots to return to major European city streets before it's all settled.  If it ever is.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on November 17, 2010, 02:45:52 AM
This is more of the same old policies.  The only thing that's changed is that the economy is going to last a little longer.  That's about it.  It'll collapse anyway.  Just take longer to do it.
This just in, 16 Nov '10:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/11/16/report-foreclosure-mess-threaten-banks/?test=latestnews
(This article may be replaced in the future by fresher news, unless it's archived.)

This whole thing is a complex set of problems with no good answer.  Greed and lax Federal regulations oversight, or plain incompetence---or both--- for decades has caused the economy to reach a financial cliff that's deadly to fall off of.

Lee *continues to sip soda and munch on popcorn while waiting for the The Collapse*

--Lee

Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on November 17, 2010, 09:43:21 PM
I heard today about cell phones that recharge themselves drawing energy from radio waves. http://www.inhabitat.com/2009/06/11/nokia-phones-pull-energy-out-of-thin-air/    triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on November 17, 2010, 09:52:43 PM
Both my brother and I agree the collapse is coming.We call it "The Storm" however.And hope we can sit it out without firearms.I opened up a 5lb bag of cornmeal the other day(5 months old maybe) and found it infested with bugs.I ended up throwing it out and cussing myself for not storing it better.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on November 17, 2010, 10:58:41 PM
I heard today about cell phones that recharge themselves drawing energy from radio waves. http://www.inhabitat.com/2009/06/11/nokia-phones-pull-energy-out-of-thin-air/    triffid
Right, that's a good idea, but some European countries would ban devices that tap the grid, won't they?

I saw on another thread awhile back:  Taking only the ground wire of the American-style electric wall plug, adding two opposing diodes to the end, and then attaching each polarity-correct diode to the positive and negative terminals of an electrolytic capacitor will charge the capacitor to about 17 volts in 3-4 hrs.

J. Naudin did the original research, I believe.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on November 17, 2010, 11:06:29 PM
Both my brother and I agree the collapse is coming.We call it "The Storm" however.And hope we can sit it out without firearms.
I hope so, too.  When people have no money they want to feel comfortable with, they become a whole lot less civilized.  Some people make money their God.
My medical past disallows my owning a gun legally, but you and your brother might be okay in that regard.  You might practice your accuracy on targets at a range occasionally.
Quote
I opened up a 5lb bag of cornmeal the other day(5 months old maybe) and found it infested with bugs.I ended up throwing it out and cussing myself for not storing it better.triffid
Yeah, that's a problem.  I got some 'C' Rations from a Veteran's-Stand-Down-type of meeting in San Francisco recently.  They last a long time.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on November 18, 2010, 02:45:51 PM
Heres some news About SS.http://finance.yahoo.com/focus-retirement/article/111268/get-a-bigger-check-from-social-security?mod=fidelity-buildingwealth&cat=fidelity_2010_building_wealth   Everyone can always use more money.
triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on November 18, 2010, 02:50:35 PM
What follows is a copy of one readers post from the article I posted above.It should helpthose who served in the military get a bigger SS check when they retire.                                                                             If you served in the U.S. Military and served honorably between Jan., 1957 and Dec., 2001, you could receive up to $1200 dollars of credit earnings annually, which can make a substantial difference in your monthly payments. This means ANYONE who served during this time period....not just military retirees. The catch is: You must bring your DD-214 and you MUST ASK for this benefit. SS office will not inform you that u are due this money. So ASK folks.
Hope this helps you out.                             triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on November 18, 2010, 03:10:39 PM
        PROBLEM AND SOLUTION to Trillions of $ Debt
        Problem = Through fractional reserve banking money is created out of thin air (doesn't really exist), this money is then borrowed by the Government at Interest (this is the scam). The tax payer is forced to pay back money to the central banks that never existed in the first place WITH INTEREST. Over 100 years of this Scam has produced trillions of dollars of debt even though trillions of dollars didn't even exist 100 years ago. (Dollars or Euros it's still the same scam)
        Solution = Under USA Pres. Lincoln we had DEBT FREE money, The US government created the money the same way the banks do today except the American people didn't owe interest to any other nation / central bank etc... In Fact the Constitution of the USA says that congress is to make the money not central banks or through fractional reserve banking, derivatives etc.. Lincoln was killed, and the globalists killed the debt free money he started. Lincoln’s Debt free money postponed the complete take over of the USA by saving us from outside control via war debts.
        Today the American people do not control the US Dollar at all, only a handful of central banks and the Federal Reserve which is made up of private central bankers. The Fed and the banks through manipulation and fraud have stolen the assets of the American people over the last 100 years in exchange for DEBT they created out of thin air! THIS IS 100% FACT! They make the paper and we exchange our assets and freedoms for this paper and they collect the interest.
        It's time to take our money back, if we don't the same people in control of our money right now plan to force us into a Global Currency which would then give them absolute control over the entire world! After a global currency is setup their will no longer be independent nations, only global tyranny. They will still create the money out of thin air and everyone in the world will OWE them the interest until they own/control everything!
        Every nation in the world needs to create DEBT FREE MONEY and put the people back in control of their future. END THE SCAM, DEMAND DEBT FREE
        MONEY! MAKE THE BANKS BORROW REAL MONEY CREATED BY THE GOVERNMENT, FOR AND BY THE PEOPLE, AT INTEREST.
        If the system is flipped and banks/companies/people have to borrow real money from the Government at interest this will greatly reduce taxes and it eliminates the power of foreign governments and central banks thus ending this outsider control over our nation. Other nations can do the same thing and also have FREEDOM!
        for more information on how to solve the Trillions of Debt
        watch "Money Masters" on YouTube

   
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on November 18, 2010, 03:22:15 PM
    It is amazing how we are told over and over to wait until we are 66 and receive full Social Security benefits. Better yet, get 8% more for each year you wait until you are 70. Don't start collecting at 62 even if you are retired drawing antoher pension. Has anyone computed the Present Value of the benefits lost by waiting until you are 70 to get extra benefits. You will have to live until you are approximately 82 to break even which means you have to work for those 8 years (62 to 70) because you still need income. I believe the average life expectancy is still around mid to late 70's. I'm thinking I had 8 extra years to relax when I was still able to enjoy relaxation. I still believe the only GTD income from Social Security is get it NOW; reap what you can today and if you live beyond 82 . . . well at least you can tell your nurse about how you made a wrong decision.

This is a copy of a readers post that I liked  triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on November 18, 2010, 03:25:52 PM
My dad took retirement at age 62.He said he had worked enough.He died at age 86.I took retirement at age 58.I have a disability but paid into the system for 39 years.So I earned the right to draw it.Hopefully it will last a long time.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: cosmoLV on November 18, 2010, 03:33:40 PM
Economic Chrisy's are part of process and no Free Energy or technology can make humans free, this is illusion (for now)

all begins from us :) humans think that the planet earth are under us control and we are rights on it, but actually we all here are guests - we need to understand this ;)
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: ramset on November 18, 2010, 05:33:34 PM
Cosmo
Quote:
but actually we all here are guests - we need to understand this
------------------------
I love this place!!
I just want to leave it a little better than I found it!
And I'm glad for that chance!Besides If I really take good care of It ,who knows?, maybe they'll have me back??

How about you ??

Chet

Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on November 18, 2010, 09:43:10 PM
What follows is a copy of one readers post from the article I posted above.It should helpthose who served in the military get a bigger SS check when they retire.
Sorry to say, there was link to article in the post above.  Can you resend the link?  I did serve between those dates and with an Honorable Discharge.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on November 18, 2010, 09:55:37 PM
Economic Chrisy's are part of process and no Free Energy or technology can make humans free, this is illusion (for now)
Yes, I agree.  Too much greed and violently pugnacious men who demand what they desire.  So, you have a point.
Quote
all begins from us :) humans think that the planet earth are under us control and we are rights on it, but actually we all here are guests - we need to understand this ;)
Right, true.  I agree with your point as is. 
Well, as far as it goes.
The trouble is---and I've seen this happen from a distance---that whomever is a "whistleblower" for positive change, will quickly become a target.  The louder the whistle, The.  Bigger.  The.  Target.

Martyrdom will come to whomever thinks differently.  The SW Asian Jihadis want martyrdom;
they're just using a bomb instead of a whistle.

They can be part of The Collapse if they gain strongly against our allies in the Eastern Hemisphere.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on November 19, 2010, 02:13:40 PM
The link below displays a disturbing trend.Members of congress grow richer no matter wnat happens to the man in the street.http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Members-of-US-Congress-Get-cnbc-1255923366.html?x=0   read and learn.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on November 19, 2010, 02:16:42 PM
More than half of all members of congress are millionaires.One was worth over 300 million.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on November 19, 2010, 02:28:28 PM
One reader (of the article above)posted the following comment:    All of the largest companies that are listed in this article, do a tremendous amount of offshoring and outsourcing. At GE, I know some of the folks in India that work for them on contract, they have cut so many Americans from their position and acquired so many India employees, that even the folks in India have complained to me that there are so many of them, and so few Americans, that it can be difficult to obtain clear direction from onshore in the USA or from the few Americans working there in India. Up to 80% of GE's labor is now offshored and outsourced, only about 20% of the American job positions that used to exist still remain - and they would love to get rid of those too if they could do it. That's called an "80/20" policy. 100% of that decision is about money, and the company loves to blow their little trumpet about all the wonderful cost savings - the executives brag about it routinely, and it is frequently on display on power point presentations and other blow-your-own-horn opportunities.
    .
    Your congressmen, and senators, oh yeah, you better believe they are in love with this, they support it fully. They are not interested in doing anything about it? Good grief, they're trying to help these thing occur, they are IN LOVE with this.

Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on November 19, 2010, 02:38:32 PM
Another readers postis :How can people with this kind of wealth have any clue about what the people they are supposed to represent need and want? With our current structure of no term limits and pretty much unlimited spending to get elected and then reelected the pool of potential senators and representatives shrinks with every election cycle. To enter the political arena you must have a great deal of personal wealth and then become beholden to special interest groups to pay for television ads, mailings, rallys and all the other dog and pony show events that have become part of our political process. The irony of the whole mess is that the only people who can change the system are the same senators and congressman who are currently manipulating it to help the special interest groups that pull their strings. I'm embarrassed to say that I got snookered into believing that Mr. Obama was really going to try and change Washington. Now that the Republicans have regained some power back they will take the opportunity to deliver some pay back. The congress reminds me more of a schoolyard with kids squabbling about a kick ball game that responsible representatives making decisions about the future of our country.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on November 19, 2010, 02:47:47 PM
Another reader has a very negative view of the article that was written and in the interest of seeing both sides here is what he posted:Cynicism sells, and these posts show it. There isn't a lot of context in this article. I'd like to know the ones who have investments in companies that have business before Congress, and if they recuse themselves, and if not, why not? The multi-millionaires were multi-millionaires when they got there, and that's a problem, but this article makes it look like they came poor and got rich. There are only 537 elected federal officials, and the 300 million of us citizens who don't trust them; they are about the last people on earth who can "stuff their pockets" and get away with it. Ask Rangel! The interesting point to me in the article is, "The median wealth of a representative was $765,010, up from $645,503." Well, they make 175,000 a year, and according to these numbers their wealth increased by 120,000. That means they spent 55, 000 this year, the rest went into the bank. Does that seem out of line? I think this article is manipulative in this way.
Get to know your Congressman or woman. Judge for yourself. I have gotten to know my representatives and I believe they are in the political business to do public service, not to bilk the system. RESIST the PROPAGANDA!!!
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on November 19, 2010, 06:13:48 PM
More than half of all members of congress are millionaires.One was worth over 300 million.
Their day is coming.  No empire last thousands and thousands of years.  People are born and then die.  For that reason, karma is real to me.  They'll get what they deserve.  Good or bad.

That was both a compliment and a condemnation at the same time.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on November 22, 2010, 07:40:58 AM
A link to free services and goods.  http://finance.yahoo.com/family-home/article/111305/cool-products-and-services-you-can-get-for-free    triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on November 25, 2010, 12:19:54 AM
More than half of all members of congress are millionaires.One was worth over 300 million.
That may be so, but look at this:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101124/ap_on_bi_ge/eu_europe_financial_crisis

This is getting worse and worse.  Millionaires may be a thing of the past, as it were.  As I said in another post on this thread, the 'peripherals'---EU countries like Ireland and especially Spain---should be watched carefully.  If they default, it's going to get more than just *serious* economically.

Then there's the obvious maniac in North Korea who may not care if he gets East Asia into a gravely dire shooting war with the U.S.A.

"Things" are going downhill.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: X00013 on November 26, 2010, 12:05:34 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvZZg5uia-Y
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on November 28, 2010, 04:29:37 AM
    There is nothing that can reassure markets when three Irish banks are sitting on over 1.5 trillion euros in bad debt. (Spanish banks are sitting on over three times that). There is nothing reassuring when, just after receiving a massive bailout, the Greek government revised their growth figures downwards and their debt figures upwards again. There is nothing reassuring when ask the average man or woman on the street in Dublin, "What do you think will happen?" and they say, "We'll take the money then we'll default. What's the worst that could happen? They'd drain the German and French treasuries to protect the euro". Institutional investors will do what they always do - take the money and run to a safe haven.
    It's fine in hindsight to say "We never should have let countries like Greece and Ireland join the euro - should have known they would abuse their privileges" but the boat has already left the dock.
    The best thing anybody can do is let those banks fail, and let those other banks with so much money invested in the (always risky) Irish banks fail, too. Write off what you can, let the chips fall where they may. What you'll end up with are solvent, reliable banking institutions like the Cooperative Bank, instead of the unreliable and totally irresponsible Anglo Irish, Allied Irish, Northern Rock and RBS, and a return to a banking system which existed for hundreds of years which didn't need government regulation because they didn't make loans to people or other institutions who could not possibly repay them. Banks which existed to hold and protect their investors' money, not gamble it on subprime mortgages in Ireland, Spain and (mainly) the U.S.

Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on November 28, 2010, 04:32:30 AM
Other things to consider many governments are in denial about their debt
and the crisis is far from over,it is getting worse.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on November 28, 2010, 05:41:58 AM
    There is nothing that can reassure markets when three Irish banks are sitting on over 1.5 trillion euros in bad debt. (Spanish banks are sitting on over three times that). There is nothing reassuring when, just after receiving a massive bailout, the Greek government revised their growth figures downwards and their debt figures upwards again. There is nothing reassuring when ask the average man or woman on the street in Dublin, "What do you think will happen?" and they say, "We'll take the money then we'll default. What's the worst that could happen? They'd drain the German and French treasuries to protect the euro".
Yes!  That's the worst that can happen!  The Germans are already complaining that they're, "Not swimming in money."

Precisely.  This can't go on for a great deal longer.  Europeans are become scared of the future, I think.  Rightly so.  This is a bad situation all around.
Quote
Institutional investors will do what they always do - take the money and run to a safe haven.
    It's fine in hindsight to say "We never should have let countries like Greece and Ireland join the euro - should have known they would abuse their privileges" but the boat has already left the dock.
    The best thing anybody can do is let those banks fail, and let those other banks with so much money invested in the (always risky) Irish banks fail, too. Write off what you can, let the chips fall where they may. What you'll end up with are solvent, reliable banking institutions like the Cooperative Bank, instead of the unreliable and totally irresponsible Anglo Irish, Allied Irish, Northern Rock and RBS, and a return to a banking system which existed for hundreds of years which didn't need government regulation because they didn't make loans to people or other institutions who could not possibly repay them.
Many years ago, in high school, a 'nerd' I hung around with intimated to me that the present crisis(today) was unavoidable and would cause the 'whole house of cards to collapse', as he put it.  Why, there's more that 100 times the money in circulation now than in 1929.  No one who even lives to be 10,000 years old will be able to legally pay of the debts incurred before---and at---the collapse.  Banks probably won't be around to be a factor at that time.  They'll be toast by then.
Quote
Banks which existed to hold and protect their investors' money, not gamble it on subprime mortgages in Ireland, Spain and (mainly) the U.S.
To be cynical and truthful, a financial whistleblower wrote a book exposing an insider's view of Wall Street and then testified to Congress.  The data informant he named in testimony suffered a fatal car accident the next day.

Wonder why?

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on November 28, 2010, 06:13:06 AM
On top of it all you have to worry about ATM theft.   http://finance.yahoo.com/banking-budgeting/article/111407/atm-fraud-gets-even-more-brazen   triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on November 28, 2010, 06:16:50 AM
One thing to do is to cover the keypad with your hand so no camera can see your PIN.


then here is a post from another reader:In Malaysia, crooks tap your shoulder as you're standing in front of the ATM waiting for your money. Modus Operandi is simple, they tap your shoulder, you turn and they tell you that you dropped some money. You look down and see some notes; this is the time they take out your card and replace it with a dummy card. You can't tell coz both cards don't have your name on it. Then they say it is a mistake, the money isn't your, it's theirs and they quickly leave with your card and your PIN (remember, one of them stand closely behind you to see you entering the PIN before they tap your shoulder). A friend of mind lost RM6,000 (about 3,000 dollars) in a week before she realized it.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on November 28, 2010, 06:33:33 AM
Since the bailouts of the big banks Many of them have put the gas petal
to the foreclosure process in an effort to foreclose on as many homes as they can and turn around and resell them with clean paperwork.In florida alone a  special court was set up to rubberstamp as many foreclosures as possible.The article is in The November 2010 edition of the "Rolling stones".The fla system is nicknamed the "the rocket docket".The main interest of the judges is to process as many as they can in an hour without even being concerned with proper paperwork .Hence errors occurr in nearly 100% of the mortgages being foreclosed on.In some cases the banks told homeowners to not pay for three months so they would be considered for loan modications but kept no records of who they gave permission to fall behind payments to.There was a lot of fraud committed by the banks in the sub prime mess.But our legal system supports the banks nearly 100% against the average homeowner.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on November 28, 2010, 12:53:00 PM
tired of paying for cable? here are other options.  http://finance.yahoo.com/family-home/article/110122/you-dont-have-to-pay-for-cable-tv?mod=series-a-article  triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on November 29, 2010, 10:43:25 PM
CAN'T YOU SEE IT?
The economic crisis in Ireland and other EU countries has nothing to do with socialism or social programs. It is the result of UNRESTRAINED CAPITALISM. the same thing that happened here int he U.S. Financial institutions made risky bets that resulted in huge losses and now they are looking for a government bailout at the expense of YOU THE TAXPAYER.. THE TAXPAYERS ARE PAYING FOR THE BAD HABIT OF GAMBLING WITH THE ECONOMY BY THE RICH AND THE CORPORATIONS.
It is really amazing to me how ignorant people are in this country. Why don't you take a basic economics class, or go to Europe yourself and talk to people to learn about their system. If you are getting your knowledge of world affairs from Fox news and AM radio you are being woefully MANIPULATED AND MISINFORMED.
.
The oligarchy and plutocracy the 'ruling class" have you brainwashed lemmings believing: If you start talking about the inequlities of income they will call you a "socialist" "Commie", "maxist"
I do not know which makes a man more conservative — to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past.
Today, because of stagnating wages and higher costs for basic necessities, the average two-wage-earner family has less disposable income than a one-wage-earner family did a generation ago. The average American today is underpaid, overworked and stressed out as to what the future will bring for his or her children. For many, the American dream has become a nightmare.
But, not everybody is hurting. While the middle class disappears and poverty increases the wealthiest people in our country are not only doing extremely well, they are using their wealth and political power to protect and expand their very privileged status at the expense of everyone else. This upper-crust of extremely wealthy families are hell-bent on destroying the democratic vision of a strong middle-class which has made the United States the envy of the world. In its place they are determined to create an oligarchy in which a small number of families control the economic and political life of our country.
The 400 richest families in America, who saw their wealth increase by some $400 billion during the Bush years, have now accumulated $1.27 trillion in wealth. Four hundred families! During the last fifteen years, while these enormously rich people became much richer their effective tax rates were slashed almost in half. While the highest-paid 400 Americans had an average income of $345 million in 2007, as a result of Bush tax policy they now pay an effective tax rate of 16.6 percent, the lowest on record.
Last year, the top twenty-five hedge fund managers made a combined $25 billion but because of tax policy their lobbyists helped write, they pay a lower effective tax rate than many teachers, nurses and police officers. As a result of tax havens in the Cayman Islands, Bermuda and elsewhere, the wealthy and large corporations are evading some $100 billion a year in U.S. taxes. . . .
But it's not just wealthy individuals who grotesquely manipulate the system for their benefit. It's the multinational corporations they own and control. In 2009, Exxon Mobil, the most profitable corporation in history made $19 billion in profits and not only paid no federal income tax—they actually received a $156 million refund from the government. If you just ask just compensation for your hard work, Is that Marxism, Communism?
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on November 30, 2010, 12:12:28 AM
On top of it all you have to worry about ATM theft.   http://finance.yahoo.com/banking-budgeting/article/111407/atm-fraud-gets-even-more-brazen   triffid
I saw a morning TV cable news program segment that featured that problem.  An Internet company sells conductive, (probably metallic) sleeves that slip over your credit/debit card which shields the card from detection.
(Covering the card with aluminum foil will do the same thing, but is a crumpled hassle to deal with.)

Also, triffid is right about the Europeans and their debt.
I say, if the Irish have been bailed out, and their still scared about the future of their money and economies, they have reason to be.  No amount of money they throw at the problem will stop their, and our own, downward slide---as triffid and I have indicated all along.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on November 30, 2010, 04:34:08 AM
That may be so, but look at this:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101124/ap_on_bi_ge/eu_europe_financial_crisis

This is getting worse and worse.  Millionaires may be a thing of the past, as it were.
Case in point:

http://finance.yahoo.com/banking-budgeting/article/111434/familys-fall-from-affluence-is-swift-and-hard
(This article may---or may not---be replaced in the future with fresher news on the news agency's computer's hard drive.)

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on December 01, 2010, 03:52:12 PM
free land if you will homestead it.   http://realestate.yahoo.com/promo/7-towns-where-land-is-free.html   triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on December 01, 2010, 04:39:53 PM
Some ways to reduce your debt.Don'tforget to read readers posts.
http://financiallyfit.yahoo.com/finance/article-111092-7153-1-how-she-paid-off-big-debt-in-a-few-short-years   triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on December 03, 2010, 05:03:25 AM
Some ways to reduce your debt.Don'tforget to read readers posts.
http://financiallyfit.yahoo.com/finance/article-111092-7153-1-how-she-paid-off-big-debt-in-a-few-short-years   triffid
Yes, this is indeed true.  I myself am guilty of eating out at the beginning of the month until I run out of ready cash by about the 15 of each month.  Then I visit the local religiously-oriented soup kitchen for the rest of the month.

I could eat there every day, but I'd still be short of money living in an expensive city like San Francisco.  (The weather here is something that agrees very much with me, so I stay here.)

But I'm not in debt, so that's not a problem.  I'm just living in a dirty slum with the types of people who live in slums.

UNFORTUNATELY!!!!    >:(   >:(   >:(   ::)    ::)    ::)

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: raburgeson on December 06, 2010, 08:10:51 AM
Spending trillions you don't have will crash any nation that won't take steps to correct the problem. They have gone past the point of no return. Only the people on benefits are included. Labor unions have been squashed and these figures do not reflect people that have replaced good paying jobs with insufficient paying ones either. People are unwilling to come to market with new products that will end up overseas adding nothing to the economy either. That trend has to be broken before they will come forward. This FED buy up is a crock, the banksters will use 600 billion of fiat money and try to swindle the country out of resources.

They will argue they have money in bank accounts that is tangible to purchase debt with and I will tell you any tangible assets they have ever held are leveraged to the max and all they have is a printing press. So with some ink and paper they are going to try to make a real asset grab soon.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on December 07, 2010, 03:39:11 AM
Spending trillions you don't have will crash any nation that won't take steps to correct the problem. They have gone past the point of no return.
Yep, I agree 1,000%
They greatly appear to not give a d@mn.  I believe starvation is coming to whomever thinks they can get away with theft for years and try to act like Bernard Madoff and lie about it.
Quote
They will argue they have money in bank accounts that is tangible to purchase debt with and I will tell you any tangible assets they have ever held are leveraged to the max and all they have is a printing press. So with some ink and paper they are going to try to make a real asset grab soon.
People will really wake up soon---unless they like slowly going broke at an ever-increasing rate.  Then, even the Chinese may demand their money they borrowed from us?  Or economic fear grips Europe and the EU collapses, while dragging us down with it?

You're absolutely right in principle.  The economy will effectively implode.  Shortly or eventually.

--Lee

Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on December 09, 2010, 12:34:15 AM
triffid said:
Quote
« Reply #782 on: December 01, 2010, 04:39:53 PM »

Some ways to reduce your debt.Don'tforget to read readers posts.
http://financiallyfit.yahoo.com/finance/article-111092-7153-1-how-she-paid-off-big-debt-in-a-few-short-years   triffid
But I'm not in debt, so that's not a problem.  I'm just living in a dirty slum with the types of people who live in slums.
UNFORTUNATELY!!!!    >:(   >:(   >:(   ::)    ::)    ::)
--Lee
Speaking of people who may, or may not, be in debt:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101208/ap_on_bi_ge/us_foreclosure_wrong_people

This kind of thing can really piss a person off!  The idea should be to demand a bank produce the original note of the legal mortgage.  If they can't, then sue!

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: FatBird on December 09, 2010, 12:35:58 AM
Good points.  There are a lot of UTube Videos about it too.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on December 09, 2010, 09:06:25 AM
I already mentioned an article on mortgage fraud that was published in the Nov.2010 issue of "the rolling stones".The big banks do not care about the errors in their documents.Nearly 100% of the mortgages was quoted in the article as containing some type of error.From this point on I want to avoid banks when it comes to buying real estate.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on December 09, 2010, 01:54:28 PM
http://money.msn.com/investing/the-decades-10-best-paid-ceos-brush.aspx    Read it and rest assured in the knowledge that the ceos get theirs.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on December 09, 2010, 02:05:49 PM
I bought some solar tubes that look like giant test tubes.They are able to boil water just using sunlight.
They heat up the air inside real well too.I will have to build a giant test tube rack to be able to use them.As long as they are never broken they will focus sunlight inside the tubes.I bought them from a link on         www.cleanrepublic.com      triffid             that link is    http://www.electric-bike-kit.com/evacuatedsolarvacuumtube-1.aspx
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming... + speaking of videos...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on December 15, 2010, 08:20:22 PM
Good points.  There are a lot of UTube Videos about it too.
There probably are.  However, what concerns me at the moment is this sort of thing:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101215/ap_on_bi_ge/eu_greece_financial_crisis

It's going on in England with the students and Italy with the vote of confidence for the Prime Minister, yes?

People are showing a lot of anger.  Look at Korea with protests in Seoul, S. Korea, over the North's shelling of a border island.

Various populations are showing less and less restraint in dealing with corruption and gov't waste.  There is no good end if this gets worse.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on December 16, 2010, 06:29:34 PM
Jim Marrs has a good book out on it "These terrible times".
http://www.amazon.com/Trillion-Dollar-Conspiracy-Man-Made-Diseases-Destroying/dp/0061970689/ctoc
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming... + speaking of videos...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on December 18, 2010, 10:08:15 PM
People are showing a lot of anger.  Look at Korea with protests in Seoul, S. Korea, over the North's shelling of a border island.
Speaking again of "Korea", S. Korea wants to continue artillery exercises near where the North shelled the South's border island.  Both sides promise "massive" retaliation if the other side goes too far.  A regional conflict would be more than just *serious* for economic interests in the area if things get out of hand.

The economic crisis is far from over in Europe as well.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on December 20, 2010, 02:04:36 PM
Everyone seems to have forgotten 2008 when gas was over $4.00 thanks mostly to greedy speculators. In case you haven't noticed, fuel prices are creeping up again and most economists expect the price to be near or at $4.00 again by late spring 2011. The rise is slower this time so as not to alarm the uninformed. Our government "subsidizes" the refining companies in a back-door manner by allowing massive tax breaks although it certainly is increasingly costly to get at the crude and somebody has to pay.. Am I about to riot? Hardly. But I MAY have to curtail operations and lay off people, and this fragile "recovery" will suffer soon as prices rise for everything.
Ethanol, the so-called savior, is actually driving up the price of everything as farmers mow down their corn for fuel and not food; as oil prices rise, so do prices for everything made with it including plastics, clothing , and many foods.
Iran is not the only nation who will suffer soon due to rising fuel prices. This country is in deep economic caca and while there may not be nationwide riots and strikes over cutbacks, there will be a cost -- what that is remains to be seen
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on December 21, 2010, 01:03:02 AM
Everyone seems to have forgotten 2008 when gas was over $4.00 thanks mostly to greedy speculators. In case you haven't noticed, fuel prices are creeping up again and most economists expect the price to be near or at $4.00 again by late spring 2011.
I did notice, indeed.  Makes me glad I don't own a car.  San Francisco, my hometown, has major street gridlocks every day due to the cars.
Quote
The rise is slower this time so as not to alarm the uninformed. Our government "subsidizes" the refining companies in a back-door manner by allowing massive tax breaks although it certainly is increasingly costly to get at the crude and somebody has to pay..
The companies don't pay taxes, they raise prices and we subsidize the prices with our business.
Quote
Am I about to riot? Hardly. But I MAY have to curtail operations and lay off people, and this fragile "recovery" will suffer soon as prices rise for everything.
Taxes might become higher at the end of the year?  At any rate, prices are creeping up on everything.
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Ethanol, the so-called savior, is actually driving up the price of everything as farmers mow down their corn for fuel and not food; as oil prices rise, so do prices for everything made with it including plastics, clothing , and many foods.
Yeah, a TV news report said the same thing awhile ago.  They, and you, have a point.  There are newly discovered naturally growing plants that can be used for ethanol production, however.
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Iran is not the only nation who will suffer soon due to rising fuel prices. This country is in deep economic caca and while there may not be nationwide riots and strikes over cutbacks, there will be a cost -- what that is remains to be seen
As I said, "I'm waiting to see what happens."

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on December 21, 2010, 03:46:06 PM
think you can grow your own food on your own land if you had some?Think again!  check this out!  http://www.naturalnews.com/030799_food_freedom_Wickard_vs_Filburn.html
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on December 21, 2010, 03:47:38 PM
NaturalNews) In arguing for S.510, the "Food Safety Modernization Act," there are all sorts of attorneys, legislators and internet commentators who keep claiming, "The government won't try to control the food production of small farms." They say, "Your backyard garden is safe" and that the feds won't come knocking on your door to control your seeds or foods.

As usual, these pushers of Big Government are utterly ignorant of the history in their own country. Because as you'll learn right here, not only CAN the U.S. government control and dictate to single-family farms what they can grow in their own backyards; the government has already blatantly done so!

Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/030799_food_freedom_Wickard_vs_Filburn.html#ixzz18ofAhxQs
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on December 21, 2010, 03:50:28 PM
The federal government claimed authority under the Commerce Clause of the US Constitution (Article 1, Section 8), even though the Commerce Clause was originally written primarily to prevent states from erecting tariffs, not to allow the federal government to control interstate trade. But thanks to the twisted interpretation of the government -- and believe me, the government will twist every interpretation it can in an effort to assert more power over the population -- the feds claimed that Filburn's growing of his own wheat effectively reduced interstate commerce in wheat. Therefore, they reasoned, they could regulate his backyard wheat production (and order him to destroy his wheat).

Because of this US Supreme Court decision in 1942, it now means the federal government can order you to halt food production in your own back yard by arguing that when you grow your own food, the amount of food you purchase from other food providers is reduced, meaning that your food production impacts interstate trade and therefore can be fully controlled by the federal government.

Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/030799_food_freedom_Wickard_vs_Filburn.html#ixzz18ofoQsnr
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on December 21, 2010, 03:56:04 PM
Really wicked news isn't it?
if they want to they can seize your homegrown gardens just from a 1942 court case.And they are now groping passengers at the airports under new TSA rules.I wonder when the full body scans will make it out on a  site somewhere?If I thought of it I'm sure someone else has too.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on December 21, 2010, 04:02:07 PM
So now we will have to live underground in caves.Grow our gardens in secret.Grow plants that don't use sunlight.And no telling what else we will have to do to live on the surface.No wonder I eat out at fastfood places all the time.Jack in the box sounds good this morning.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on December 21, 2010, 04:13:45 PM
In other words, the federal government claims the authority right now -- even without the Food Safety Modernization Act -- to knock on your door and order you at gunpoint to destroy all the food in your garden, your greenhouse or your farm. They can order you to destroy all seeds in your possession and all food harvested from your own garden. And they can do all this with the full protection of U.S. law by simply citing the precedent set in Wickard v. Filburn in 1942 as ruled by the US Supreme Court.

Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/030799_food_freedom_Wickard_vs_Filburn.html#ixzz18okqvoG4
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on December 22, 2010, 04:14:07 AM
So now we will have to live underground in caves. ... 
...And no telling what else we will have to do to live on the surface. ...
Well, there's a conspiracy theory---out there somewhere, anywhere, everywhere   ::) , right??!!??---that the Gov't has cave complexes that can last for years when the worldwide economies collapse.  "Ya can't win fer losin..."
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Grow our gardens in secret.Grow plants that don't use sunlight.
Some mushrooms don't necessarily need light to grow, right?  You can't eat mushroom all the time, though.
Quote
No wonder I eat out at fastfood places all the time.Jack in the box sounds good this morning.triffid
Yeah, it's easy.  I do, too, when I have money.  I'm still collecting cans of food.

REEDIT:
This thread's poll(very successful) has 107 respondents so far.  The consensus has the "definitely failing" category consistently above 54% of the total for months and months on end.

This thread is the second longest in terms of public/Member clicked Views on this Forum("News").  I myself will keep watching the TV news reports and commenting occasionally, as I've always done.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on December 22, 2010, 08:13:06 PM
I guess living in caves can't be all bad.Our ancestors did it for thousands of years before they figured out how to make huts(houses) out of mammoth bones.
I wonder if we will have to build more houses out of bones?I always wanted to live underground on the moon or mars.Seems like now is a good time to go.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on December 22, 2010, 08:28:02 PM
I have lived in a tent on my own land for three months and found the experience to be a good one.If you can stay in your sleeping bag you have it made in the winter.I was in graduate school at the time and to get out of bed to go to class(1979-80).While I would not repeat that experience again.I might go for a large military tent like they had on the tv series MASH now that I'm retired.I cooked a lot of meals on an open fire by supporting an iron skillet on two bricks.And feeding the fire twigs and other pieces of wood.Tent keeping was usually a breeze.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on December 22, 2010, 08:32:29 PM
I guess living in caves can't be all bad.Our ancestors did it for thousands of years before they figured out how to make huts(houses) out of mammoth bones.
http://archaeology.about.com/od/ancienthouses/g/mammoth_huts.htm

You have a point.
I'm a genealogist and most Americans had native East European tribal ancestors living in those types of huts 15,000-25,000 years ago.
Caves can also smell from the previous recent inhabitant, even though a strong cave with a good roof is excellent protection against bears, lions, saber-tooth cats, etc.
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I wonder if we will have to build more houses out of bones?I always wanted to live underground on the moon or mars.Seems like now is a good time to go.triffid
The science fiction author Robert Heinlein(now deceased), had as a plot point in one of his early novels that people used to live on the Moon, but they("Lunarians"(?)---I made up a new word??!!??) were gone by the time the heroic space explorers got there.

If you could find a way off Earth, now is the time to plan a getaway.
There's several fairly and seemingly benign economic problems that will become harshly evident in due course.

Buy a one way ticket to Mars.  ;)   :D   ;D   8)
Or convince the "Greys" from the Orion Nebula to take you and trust they won't treat you like a head of cattle and experiment on you!

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on December 22, 2010, 08:34:17 PM
I have solar panels now so I would generate some electricity for lights,radio,tv and computer.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on December 22, 2010, 08:43:25 PM

I like buying a one way ticket to mars best.The cattle method would not be healthy for me.I do think I will end up in St.Louis,Mo.in a couple of months to began a new adventure in my life.I do have raw property in Utah to set up my tent on but last I heard it was covered by 6 inches of snow.But St.Louis beckons to me now.Triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on December 22, 2010, 08:45:07 PM
I have lived in a tent on my own land for three months and found the experience to be a good one.If you can stay in your sleeping bag you have it made in the winter.
That can be iffy.  California and the Sierra Nevada are getting plastered by many, many! feet of snow in the higher elevations.  I spent a winter in Maine while serving in the Air Force.  BUT, I'm just enough Scandinavian to tolerate more cold than the average person.  DNA can help.  I have first-hand experience.
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I was in graduate school at the time and to get out of bed to go to class(1979-80).While I would not repeat that experience again.
I was on the streets of Okla. City for almost 1 1/2 yrs.  I know what "roughing it" is like.  First-hand experience.
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I might go for a large military tent like they had on the tv series MASH now that I'm retired.  ...  Tent keeping was usually a breeze.triffid...
We had 6-man wall tents in the Boy Scouts.  They were probably war (Gov't) surplus
Quote
...I cooked a lot of meals on an open fire by supporting an iron skillet on two bricks.And feeding the fire twigs and other pieces of wood. ...
Fortunately, I had an small income, but I couldn't cook outside without being seen.  You were lucky to be on your own land.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on December 22, 2010, 09:01:59 PM
I have solar panels now so I would generate some electricity for lights,radio,tv and computer.triffid
RIIIIIGHT!
While living in my hut on the vacant lot, I tried to power a small inverter from Radio Shack with about 6 of the larger dashboard solar panels to trickle charge your battery in the winter.  I had to buy extra parts to couple the panels to the inverter, since they were powered from different types of car outlet receptacles.  Actually, I needed about 30 of the panels in parallel to keep the motorcycle battery charged up enough to be useful.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on December 22, 2010, 09:53:18 PM
I like buying a one way ticket to mars best.The cattle method would not be healthy for me.I do think I will end up in St.Louis,Mo.in a couple of months to began a new adventure in my life.I do have raw property in Utah to set up my tent on but last I heard it was covered by 6 inches of snow.But St.Louis beckons to me now.Triffid
Okay, I see.  I had pioneer ancestors and distant relatives in that part of MO about 175 yrs. ago.  My Dad's father was born in Linn, MO.

I notice the MO State lawmakers had forbidden clear cutting of the native forests in MO.  At least it was like that 40 years ago.

(The UT mountains of the high country have a lot more than 6".  Avalanches can be more than merely a *minor problem* when that happens.)

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on December 22, 2010, 10:49:38 PM
I put two large solar panels together to charge up a car battery(keep it topped off).Each put out about 18 volts for a total of 80 watts.80 watts per hour of sunlight.So if I used it once a week ora little  more the system provided enough power.I used only 12 volt tv,radio and lights.An invertor wastes power.So I kept it real simple.keep all wires less than 20 feet long or DC losses kick in. I placed the two solar panels in my living room windows.I maintained that system for 8 years.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on December 23, 2010, 02:44:42 AM
I hate to be all gloom and doom.Here was a refreshing story on Gma this morning.                                                http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/ConsumerNews/savings-makeover-york-family-nets-58288/story?id=12452935

they were able to save this family $58,000 a year.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on December 23, 2010, 03:14:24 AM
I put two large solar panels together to charge up a car battery(keep it topped off).Each put out about 18 volts for a total of 80 watts.80 watts per hour of sunlight.So if I used it once a week ora little  more the system provided enough power.I used only 12 volt tv,radio and lights.
You live in a house where the landlord doesn't have the right to barge in and look at everything you have.  I'm in an apartment, so that's out.  But the two panels you had still would have worked in my case on a small battery, even if I had an inverter.  I only used my electric shaver about 5 minutes a day.
Quote
An invertor wastes power.
Yeah, small inverters aren't very efficient.  I just didn't have the money to buy better parts at the time.
Quote
So I kept it real simple.keep all wires less than 20 feet long or DC losses kick in.
Heavy wire for long lengths and very heavy wire for very long wire runs can keep losses to a minimum.  Heavy wire is expensive, though.
Quote
I placed the two solar panels in my living room windows.I maintained that system for 8 years.triffid
Very good.  That'll work, even through glass windows.  They need to be clean, however, but they should work.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on December 23, 2010, 05:16:18 AM
I hate to be all gloom and doom.Here was a refreshing story on Gma this morning.                                                http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/ConsumerNews/savings-makeover-york-family-nets-58288/story?id=12452935

they were able to save this family $58,000 a year.
Good, triffid.
However, I do have some rather "doom & gloom" news:
http://money.cnn.com/2010/12/22/news/economy/build_america_bonds/index.htm?source=cnn_bin&hpt=Sbin

I wondered why the City of San Francisco was fixing so many sidewalks a couple of years ago.  Now I know.
It's about to end for a fairly large number of cities.

I expect this will have some impact on the building/construction trade industry.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on December 28, 2010, 11:28:35 PM
something amusing to look at.     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_ZbIs89Mk0&feature=player_embedded    The worlds smallest solar powered electric car.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on December 28, 2010, 11:32:34 PM
Some more of the same     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpF_FtF0TkE&NR=1
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on December 29, 2010, 03:18:44 AM
something amusing to look at.     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_ZbIs89Mk0&feature=player_embedded    The worlds smallest solar powered electric car.triffid
Well, I did see this:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/05/07/earlyshow/main4998592.shtml

I'll have to try and wait 'til it stops raining here in San Francisco to see the video.  They won't allow me to watch YouTube here where I am now.

On topic:
http://bigpeace.com/jxenakis/2010/11/19/stability-of-europe-threatened-by-ireland-financial-crisis/
http://www.generationaldynamics.com/cgi-bin/D.PL?r=bp33&d=ww2010.i.garrett071009

That second article is a "hum-dinger", so to speak.  We're Germany in the 1930's and China is the U.S. in the 1930's.  Almost the same situation with a whole lot more money in circulation.

--Lee

Title: Re: I see an economic vdsdiasater coming...
Post by: triffid on December 30, 2010, 03:41:02 AM
http://snardfarker.ning.com/profile/bigjohnlipscomb 
i watched big jhns dvds on secret gardens and how to make a water filter.
it gave me hope that people could survive a collapse. triffid

http://snardfarker.ning.com/forum/categories/survivalism-and-gardening/listForCategory
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on December 30, 2010, 05:42:42 PM
want to build an underground bunker?     
As far as burying yourself in the ground goes, it seems to me that it would be bad for morale in the long run, but if you are interested in how to dig a big hole safely, look up the digging techniques used to dig basements for houses. To summarize, plan for a ramp about 3-4 times longer than the hole is deep, or use a track hoe and go from one end to the other. Just bear in mind the method that you intend to use to get the container/structure down into the hole when you decide how to do it. What I would consider the ideal setup for concealability is a metalic container buried under 18-36 inches of earth near a stream that you could wing dam for power, metalic cased well sunk inside the container with the casing welded to the container, and shielded wires running from the hydro unit to the container, shield grounded to the container and in the stream. Probably still be radar detectable, but it would look a lot smaller than it actually was. A round tank will give a lot smaller radar return than a square container. If you stay in one place for long enough, you will be found. If you stay on the move, you may be found, but you have a chance at doing the finding, and then dealing with the situation on your own terms. Either way, if you are set on a worst case, it might be good to be ready to die, because any way you go, it is a certainty sooner or later. Personally, I do not think that the situation is hopeless yet, so I am putting the bulk of my energy right now into salvaging it, and only a little bit into preparing for it's collapse.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on December 30, 2010, 05:45:24 PM
I would consider carrying a tent with me.Backpack with tent.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on December 30, 2010, 06:04:44 PM
Just some guy ranting and raving but I share his views.It could be me in this video.     http://snardfarker.ning.com/video/joblesshouselessrecovery-lets     
triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on December 30, 2010, 06:59:09 PM
For your amusement......http://snardfarker.ning.com/forum/topics/even-rats-prefer-organic-food      Be sure to check out" grocery store wars".  triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on December 31, 2010, 03:05:25 AM
Concerning Reply #819,
I saw the hole show on a recreation of what the people in London went through with the German Blitzkrieg.  There was a then-current, traditionally-built bomb bunker/shelter next to a traditionally-built set of 2 story buildings.

The re-creators blasted the buildings and bunker with ever larger simulated explosive charges as 'bombs'

The bunker didn't stand up the the final blast from a simulated V-2 rocket.  Don't count on an underground shelter unless you really know how to build them to tolerate a nuclear blast.  If you do build a strong one, they can also be used as a cellar for storage.  Very useful.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on December 31, 2010, 05:25:24 AM
http://www.electronics2000.co.uk/     this is a program to help you design your electronics.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on January 03, 2011, 07:20:57 AM
This guy will not be paying $5.00 a gallon gas.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evmGYBrCKgk&NR=1&feature=fvwp
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on January 04, 2011, 01:36:56 AM
I have a good tip for somebody.Those plasma balls you see for sale for about $40.00 will light up gas filled light bulbs with touching or without touching the plasma ball.They transmit enough energy to ionize the gas inside the bulbs or tubes.So maybe you can get more lighting for less money?The light bulbs may be burned out but you can still ionize the gas in them. triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on January 04, 2011, 02:29:09 AM
Solar powered cooling of your home today!   http://www.popbuying.com           triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on January 04, 2011, 05:19:43 AM
I would consider carrying a tent with me.Backpack with tent.
Manufacturers make tents like that, but they seem flimsy to me because they need to be light enough to carry.  We used 6-man wall tents for civilized camping in modern campgrounds when I was in the Boy Scouts.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on January 04, 2011, 05:29:37 AM
I have a good tip for somebody.Those plasma balls you see for sale for about $40.00 will light up gas filled light bulbs with touching or without touching the plasma ball.They transmit enough energy to ionize the gas inside the bulbs or tubes.
Right.  There was a thread somewhere (awhile ago!) that had a plasma globe with a coil draped over the top that could harvest energy to a battery bank through a diode string.

Now I remember?  Was it Don Smith?  I can't remember exactly.
Okay, I found it:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8713.0
(look at Reply #55)
Quote
So maybe you can get more lighting for less money?The light bulbs may be burned out but you can still ionize the gas in them. triffid
Yeah, you bet!
Creative Science, the R&D sellers of free energy survival plans, had plans for a high voltage, high frequency AC signal generator that revived burned-out fluorescent bulbs.  Those bulbs would light for years as long as the glass envelope was sound and there was continuity in the bulb.

They would send you the plans, but money was their main motivation.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on January 06, 2011, 12:05:51 AM
This guy will not be paying $5.00 a gallon gas.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evmGYBrCKgk&NR=1&feature=fvwp
Yep, that's right.  To recharge the batteries, it should take about $1.00-$2.00/per overnight charging session.  Elsewhere on this Forum or the OU.com board in general, I said that an expert on AC and/or DC motors with 60 yrs. experience was getting real old, so his niece asked him to rebuild a car for her to street-legal electric power for her commuting.  That way he was mentally occupied.

A younger man heard of this and asked to be the old man's apprentice, so the knowledge the old man had wouldn't die when he did.

We need more geniuses to invent energy-saving devices to do something about the American energy demands and worldwide climate change.  But, that's what we're here for, yes?

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on January 07, 2011, 10:41:29 AM
The energy breakthrough is what we are here for.I will be moving to St.Louis in about three weeks it looks like.I spent new years there and those tornados set down about 20 miles away from me.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on January 07, 2011, 10:47:38 PM
The energy breakthrough is what we are here for.I will be moving to St.Louis in about three weeks it looks like.I spent new years there and those tornados set down about 20 miles away from me.triffid
Well, okay.  There's no good way to escape the tornadoes in that part of the country.
But, you're right.  I do research in general and I was in R&D electronics, professionally, even if it was in a field that had nothing to do with Free Energy.

I may be moving in a couple of months myself.


On topic:
http://news.goldseek.com/GoldSeek/1293647522.php

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on January 07, 2011, 11:11:37 PM
We didn't see it coming.  http://snardfarker.ning.com/video/bankers-song-we-didnt-see-it   triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on January 07, 2011, 11:47:30 PM
We didn't see it coming.  http://snardfarker.ning.com/video/bankers-song-we-didnt-see-it   triffid
Here's a different take:

http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2010/08/26/129454550/inside-the-sausage-factory-how-wall-street-made-the-financial-crisis-worse

The analysts are right, you know.  The minority often is.   ::)   >:(   :P 

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on January 08, 2011, 11:24:53 PM
detention camps for americans .   http://naturalnews.tv/v.asp?v=593DAAA1750F6B33CB7737DCE9A6E255    triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on January 08, 2011, 11:36:34 PM
JFK speech that he may have been killed for.  http://naturalnews.tv/v.asp?v=860ABC86FB13195B09D15F199AFAC383
triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on January 08, 2011, 11:37:22 PM
detention camps for americans .   http://naturalnews.tv/v.asp?v=593DAAA1750F6B33CB7737DCE9A6E255    triffid
Typical.  You bet.
This site should have posts all about subjects like that. 

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/

The New World Odor, however, may not even survive when the economy crashes.  The ancient Roman Empire didn't survive, you know.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on January 09, 2011, 02:04:19 AM
JFK speech that he may have been killed for.  http://naturalnews.tv/v.asp?v=860ABC86FB13195B09D15F199AFAC383
triffid
Good.  That video upload isn't on YouTube.
I'm not allowed to view videos on YouTube here at the Salvation Army, but I'll try and remember to bring my earphone headset to the computer room next time.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on January 09, 2011, 03:11:49 AM
Mission possible?Some good exciting news?   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7euZNGrsLs&feature=player_embedded


triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on January 09, 2011, 03:46:20 AM
Solar powered attic fans.  http://www.youtube.com/user/ussunlight?v=tHkuWwBwAXU&feature=pyv&ad=5250191843&kw=solar%20energy&gclid=CKuLs6WNrKYCFQGe7QodCi2kaw  triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: fritznien on January 09, 2011, 05:56:33 AM
triffid i get the same result by having R75 of insulation in my attic plus i keep a lot of heat in the house in cold wheather.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on January 09, 2011, 03:35:26 PM
Of course I realize you desire to keep the heat in the winter.I used to live in texas where you get a lot of heat in the summer.around the dfw area.I am now moving to a colder climate so I have to update my focus on these things.I am also looking into dowsing as a way to make the rest of my life more interesting.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: fritznien on January 09, 2011, 11:14:51 PM
how do you know your a real Texan?
the temp. drops to 95 so you put on a sweater! :-)
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on January 11, 2011, 01:43:26 AM
Im not a real texan then.I guess.I think I need oil to be a real texan too.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on January 11, 2011, 04:48:40 AM
Of course I realize you desire to keep the heat in the winter.I used to live in texas where you get a lot of heat in the summer.around the dfw area.I am now moving to a colder climate so I have to update my focus on these things.I am also looking into dowsing as a way to make the rest of my life more interesting.triffid
I've heard that not everyone can dowse effectively, but I did see a demonstration years ago on TV.

I also lived in Houston for about 3 1/2 yrs.  My sinuses bothered me occasionally, then.

BTW,
Greece continues to borrow more and more.  Financial analysts are questioning this ongoing action in view of lack of fiscal constraint in the Greek economy.  If the Greek Gov't does anything in monetary conservatism, the Greek people will probably riot.  Again.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on January 11, 2011, 11:46:18 AM
This group claims a 98 percent success rate.http://www.allsup.com/apply/social-security-disability.aspx?SessionCode=1105&gkw=social%20security%20disability
  Just posting it in case someone here needs it. triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on January 11, 2011, 11:53:45 AM
years ago in college i got my first taste of dowsing.My roommate turned two wire coathangers into two L rods.I walked across the room with them and they crossed at a couple of locations.I was amazed but never did much.Now I want to use dowsing to find the best machine for me at the casinos in oklahoma.Is that wrong????triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on January 12, 2011, 02:00:36 AM
how do you know your a real Texan?
the temp. drops to 95 so you put on a sweater! :-)
@fritznien
That lets me out, too, like triffid, for a different reason:  I went outside in Tucson in January, with the temps in the 40's, with local residents shivering badly in their Alaskan parkas, with, say, 2-3 T-shirts and a single pair of blue jeans on, and not be terribly uncomfortable.  People ask, "You're not cold?" (I'm still in my late 50's at the time.)
"No", I say, "I'm Scandinavian."
They give a wry "Now-you-tell-me-" look after that.
My point is:  The toughest and most adaptable will have a better chance to survive when the economy collapses.
Im not a real texan then.I guess.I think I need oil to be a real texan too.triffid
@triffid
Speaking of oil, average the price of gas may have made nationally, permanently and eventually inflationary price increases to the point that most people cannot drive.

And the typical man on the street thinks the economy is improving? Sure.  Fat chance against.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on January 13, 2011, 06:46:45 AM
price of gas is going up here too.Saw some over the $3.00 mark.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on January 13, 2011, 11:32:58 PM
price of gas is going up here too.Saw some over the $3.00 mark.triffid
There's a couple of other things as well:
A) The Consumer Price Index is edging upward.  Some Wall Street insiders are worried that inflation---widely predicted to eventually rise---is starting to do so.  That could scare a lot of people and stall "The Recovery".
B) Illinois can become the new Greece.  They owe a lot of former State employees a lot of future money in retirement benefits they cannot afford to pay.  To mitigate that problem, Illinois is raising taxes.  This'll anger just about everyone, and, corporate business is predicted to leave the state en masse.  Illinois may slide into a Depression, and surrounding states as bad off financially will follow on a slippery slope.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on January 14, 2011, 12:52:27 AM
Foxnews.com said today that food shortages are on the way.That the next two years the harvests will be light.And there will be food riots.That sales of guns rose 60 % in arizona the next day or so after the shooting of the congress woman. Big john Lipscomb sells a dvd on how to make secret gardens.He taught himself on how to garden in stealth.He is good!!!! Most people walk by his gardens when they take a walk with him out in the woods.I will do some too if I can.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on January 14, 2011, 01:32:00 AM
Foxnews.com said today that food shortages are on the way.That the next two years the harvests will be light.
Right.
Haiti, China, Pakistan, (possibly) Australia, etc. will be needing more and more food imports.
Quote
And there will be food riots.
Probably in 3rd World countries first.  That wouldn't surprise me at all.
Quote
That sales of guns rose 60 % in arizona the next day or so after the shooting of the congress woman.
I used to live in Tucson before I came to San Francisco.  Everyone in Tucson has heard of Gabby Giffords.  But, I also know 30%+ own guns in AZ.  Anyone who wants to take those guns from their owners would face resistance.
Quote
Big john Lipscomb sells a dvd on how to make secret gardens.He taught himself on how to garden in stealth.He is good!!!! Most people walk by his gardens when they take a walk with him out in the woods.I will do some too if I can.triffid
Yeah, good idea,  I can put plants in my windows, but the landlord might object.  I think my lease forbids it.  But, it's still a good idea to do.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 14, 2011, 04:35:51 AM
if you can hunt, fish, build, plant and harvest there is nothing to be worried about. if you cannot do all of the above you got the wrong education...
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: MrMag on January 14, 2011, 05:32:27 AM
if you can hunt, fish, build, plant and harvest there is nothing to be worried about. if you cannot do all of the above you got the wrong education...

Exactly
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on January 14, 2011, 03:22:22 PM
don't forget,you need to know how make fire without matches.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on January 14, 2011, 03:29:34 PM
big John lived in montana where he perfected his method of gardening.He says to use heirloom seeds and now lives in kansas somewhere.Says he loses a third of his gardens to rabbits and deer.A good source of meat I would guess.set up rabbit snares at least.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on January 14, 2011, 08:50:23 PM
don't forget,you need to know how make fire without matches.triffid
I saw an advertisement for a fire starter that used a magnesium rod and a knife-like affair to shave off slivers of the rod into a small pile.  Then, take the "knife" and hit the side of the rod hard to make sparks to set off the shavings.  The blazing! heat is more than enough to start wet wood.

I don't know if it sold well enough to continue production.  This happen years ago.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on January 15, 2011, 02:16:14 PM
I bought one of those at a garage sale for 50 cents one time.I really mean learn how to use friction like a bow and string or striking two flints together.Camping stores would have the magnesium fire starting kits.For about 10 dollars or just collect books of matches and keep them in an airtight,waterproof jar.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on January 15, 2011, 02:20:33 PM

lint from the dryer makes good firestarting material.collect some of that and store it in a waterproof jar.
triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on January 15, 2011, 02:30:14 PM
I as a kid used to pick up flint rock from the railroad tracks.Strike them together to make sparks.Aim the sparks into your dryer lint,gently blow on the sparks to get smoke and a small flame,add paper and small sticks of wood.Build up your fire slowly and gently.U can also preserve coals from the fire the night before.Get a pan to put live coals in,not dead ones,cover with ash to keep the air away from them so they don't burn out overnight.Build your new fire from the old coals.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on January 15, 2011, 09:10:38 PM
I as a kid used to pick up flint rock from the railroad tracks.Strike them together to make sparks.Aim the sparks into your dryer lint,gently blow on the sparks to get smoke and a small flame,add paper and small sticks of wood.Build up your fire slowly and gently...
Quote
...Camping stores would have the magnesium fire starting kits.For about 10 dollars or just collect books of matches and keep them in an airtight,waterproof jar.triffid
That second quote is important:  Keep it dry.
The magnesium starters cheat, compared to the traditional purist hobbyist(?), right?  But survival comes first, so:  CHEAT!!!!!

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 15, 2011, 10:47:33 PM
don't forget,you need to know how make fire without matches.triffid
steel wool and a 9volt... or sticks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frksQmPaX7U
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on January 16, 2011, 04:27:35 PM
I have heard stories where a paper match is split into ten pieces that can be struck carefully to start a fire.I like the steel wool and battery trick.You can pick up stray pieces of metal with a magnet from any parking lot or road.And use them to spark a fire the same way as with steelwool.Those small pieces of metal will burn too with an electric current going through them.They will burn in an fire that is already going.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 16, 2011, 04:47:11 PM
I have heard stories where a paper match is split into ten pieces that can be struck carefully to start a fire.I like the steel wool and battery trick.You can pick up stray pieces of metal with a magnet from any parking lot or road.And use them to spark a fire the same way as with steelwool.Those small pieces of metal will burn too with an electric current going through them.They will burn in an fire that is already going.triffid
yup, the steel wool/9volt works great, i've used it many times. one can also use a pencil and a car battery. in fact any source, even very low voltage such as an AA, and a resistive material will work.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on January 16, 2011, 09:51:45 PM
I have heard stories where a paper match is split into ten pieces that can be struck carefully to start a fire.I like the steel wool and battery trick.You can pick up stray pieces of metal with a magnet from any parking lot or road.And use them to spark a fire the same way as with steelwool.Those small pieces of metal will burn too with an electric current going through them.They will burn in an fire that is already going.triffid
I did finally see the YouTube video with the new battery and steel wool.
Alright!!!!!!
They didn't teach that in Boy Scouts, but they did have firestarting contests at camp during gatherings.   "Jamborees", they called them.

The battery and steel wool is something to remember.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on January 17, 2011, 02:43:21 AM
Want to know what you will look like in 30 more years.Try this website.   http://www.morphster.com/path/c/2/1/1     triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on January 19, 2011, 10:10:28 PM
just neededto park this link somewhere.  http://www.topyields.nl/Top-dividend-yields-of-Dividend-Aristocrats.php   triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on January 20, 2011, 02:27:32 AM
just neededto park this link somewhere.  http://www.topyields.nl/Top-dividend-yields-of-Dividend-Aristocrats.php   triffid
My paternal grandmother gave me, and my brother and sister one (1) share of GM stock.  Since there was a hassle over declaring it's approximate value in income reporting statements to state and local governments, I sold mine for whatever I could get for it.  I only made about $10.00 in dividends for 30 year's time.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on January 20, 2011, 06:09:02 PM
Get your meals ready to eat now!!!   http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&rlz=&q=meals+ready+to+eat+for+sale&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=9750890156269978675&ei=Hms4TYrfHofUgQfymeH8CA&sa=X&oi=product_catalog_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CEUQ8wIwBA#    While you still can.What happened in greece will happen here.You may have only 2 to 3 years left to get yours.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on January 20, 2011, 09:47:24 PM
This auction site claims to sell things for pennies on the dollar.   http://www.quibids.com/landing/index.php?v=2     triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: the_big_m_in_ok on January 21, 2011, 02:49:51 AM
...You can pick up stray pieces of metal with a magnet from any parking lot or road.And use them to spark a fire the same way as with steelwool. ...
Aren't those filings iron oxide?  Steel wool is actually iron metal, not the oxide, so it doesn't need to get rid of the oxygen atoms in the oxide molecule, so as to ignite.

Beach sand has lots of iron in it.  An electromagnet picks up filings pretty easy.

--Lee
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on January 21, 2011, 02:05:21 PM
 A lot of those steel particles can still burn some more.However you are right,they are not steel wool.I do know if you toss them in a fire that is already burning.They will spark up the fire.I think therefore if you will collect enough to make a small pile then run an electric current through it.Like from a 9 volt battery.then it should  heat up enough to start a fire. I do tend to make assumptions sometimes.This may have been one of them.Better carry a glass lens in your pocket to focus the suns rays when the sun is shining. You can at least have fire part of the time.triffid
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 21, 2011, 02:23:50 PM
my chemistry is a bit rusty (ha ha) but if i recall correctly, iron oxide is an ionic compound? and thus not a great conductor, more of a resistor. you should try it out triffid, let us know if it works. all the sand around here is under a couple feet of snow.
Title: Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
Post by: triffid on Jan