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Author Topic: I see an economic diasater coming...  (Read 850249 times)

Offline d3adp00l

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #75 on: September 23, 2009, 07:10:58 AM »
Ok Some info on economics,

I agree with you on all your points exxcom, But heres the rub, getting small businesses for a lot of things is not a possibilty in this business structure, there is so much regulation that no one can do it and make any money. This is a shame and will change.

But to blame normal people who barely get by for shopping from walm@rt isn't really going to give a solution. Remember to put the blame of their actions squarely on wal  marts shoulders. They made the choices not to buy their products from the US. Its easier to change that one decision than millions, and yet the result is the same.

On your enumerated points, RIGHT THE F ON!!!!! exactly

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #75 on: September 23, 2009, 07:10:58 AM »

Offline d3adp00l

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #76 on: September 23, 2009, 07:13:55 AM »
I really want a copy of that info att, is there anyway to get a copy.


Offline d3adp00l

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #77 on: September 23, 2009, 07:32:10 AM »
The invisable line, I asked myself this same question, where is the line and why.

The line exists when a different measure of labor is used, we normally refer to this as money. When you outsource you open a hole in the monetary system which can only be fixed by making more money.

The correction to this is to only import raw materials, and to never import more than you export, this means that the money in the society stays there, and the monetary supply is stable.

Does this limit business from making profit, yes, do I care NO. Businesses exist because the community in which it exists allows it to, this business owes its exsistance to the community that created it, and it should exist only to benefit the community, not to hurt it.

Now these companies can open in other countries, but what happens in those countries stays there.

For example GE, it has stuff here, and in france (among others) the french version should keep its finances completely separate, and it should operate as a stand alone body, the CEO's of each branch can get together and establish company wide policies, and make commitments for purchasing for both versions, but they can't mix funding.

This really benefits GE, How? here, if the french version goes into the toliet it doesn't affect the amercian version finicially, meaning that it doesn't lay off people in the community it exists in. Now what does the french version do? well it restructres and comes back, or goes away.

As far as establishing a business in a new location, GE could take representives to a new country, lets say XYZ, they can establish the proper business entity by attracting investors, they can show how well the company has done in other countries and get venture capital, they then find and hire local people, and the company can share intellectual property only. It can only share its ideas, and methods, but they must be implimented in that local country. The employees representing the company are only marketers.

So why would they get bigger and go multi national if they cant share profits, it still gives them the purchasing power, and size they crave and state is so needed for them to do what they do. They can use all the talent from other countires to gain ground and develope new technologies, they just cant move money and product around, but ideas can move.

Offline d3adp00l

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #78 on: September 23, 2009, 07:53:03 AM »
Ok economic systems, barter vs fiat currency.

Lets look at the effectiviness of our monetary system.

I work 40 hours, supposely for 25 per hour
   I earned 1000.00 dollars right?
             Take out taxes directly   750.00
             so I worked 40 hours and got 30 hours worth of money.

Now I go spend that money, here sales tax is 10%
so now I am down to 27 hours

A good portion goes to gasoline which is taxed more calced it works out to around 3 % of the total, so now I am at 24% (since the gas was purchased from the 30 hours income)

24 hours so far, now the products I bought supported the tax base of the company I bought it from, approx. 7% of the sales price is their taxes, which I pay, so I really got 22.3 hours worth of goods.

I also pay for the profit margin of the company approx 15% (from the 24 hours) so18.72 hours worth of goods, take out credti interests (mortgage and cards, and vehicle) and we can safely round that number down to 15 hrs

so I work 40 hours, and I get 15 hours worth of goods or services in exchange, THATS ONE HELL OF A DEAL. And we havent touched property tax, your local police tax, car registration, and on and on and on.

without all of that you get 37.5% of your hour worked in this system.



Lets look at barter, I work 1 hour for you, in exchange for you to work 1 hour for me. I got 100% of my hour in exchange, a perfectly efficient transaction.

Now if you deal with people who do not operate with the "Profit Maximization" business model, but they operate with the "fair and reasonable" business model then you can do hour for hour transactions all day long.

All you have to agree on is that your hour is worth mine, I don't care what you do, we all are limited in the time we will be here, and there is nothing more valuable than time we can not buy more time. So if you think your life is more valuable than mine, you are just a greedy bastard.

If you stood next to a cliff and watched someone fall, we you know damned well you could have saved them, I would say you indirectly murdered them.

People love to use doctors at this point, saying that their time is worth more than mine, and that I would pay anything if my wife or children needed the doctors help. If a doctor used my position (hanging from a cliff) to maximized his profit because of the threat of harm that might come to my loved one, he might as well have indirectly killed them.

Better yet, he might as well hold a gun to their head and demand me give him money, at least that form of robbery is honest.

People now say, well they have to spend so much on school. Thats only because the school knows how much they will make when they get out, again profit maximization, if it was hour for hour type transactions, then they wouldn't have a debt when they got out.

Again your life is not worth more than mine, and not worth less than mine either.


Offline d3adp00l

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #79 on: September 23, 2009, 08:28:17 AM »
Jerry I am sorry but you are very ignorant. You do not have even a cursory understanding of how our taxes get spent, or where most of them come from. This is unfortunately very common. Please educate yourself, start here.

Your example is poor at best, and completely irrelevant.

You want defence, ok sure, first off, the fedral gov, should only be able to tax incoming and outgoing raw materials. Do you have any idea how much raw material we would export if we only exported raw materials? Imported also? The numbers are mind bogeling. But again would it be enough? Maybe not, (more probably it would) The current mil budget is around 480 billion.

Limiting the amount of money the feds can get would limit their spending, some we need, it takes away their blank check to endebt the next 4 generations.

We export trillions of tons of materials now, they get their cut of both the import and export, just think how much oil we import. You should get the idea.

Next place the feds can get money is to ASK the state governments, this means not only does congress and senate get to vote on it, the governer and state have to vote on it. This puts the control of the spending of money much closer to the people and their voting.

Back to barter, barter works for small transactions, but large ones done by businesses and govs has to use a place holder for the barter system/hour system, in order to have these notes you have to become a business, and to do business with these businesses you have to trade for these notes, this puts the taxation on those notes in plain view for all to see and understand.

You have a choice at that time, buy from a business, or buy by barter, which ever gets you what you want is a choice you can make, now you have the power of choice, and the ability to vote with your time/money.

Local governments are the only ones able to tax a busniess, and businesses are they only ones who pay tax, so if you don't like what your governements are doing, then take your money away, BY CHOICE. These local governements pay a portion of their gathered tax to the state, since the city exists in the state it pays its membership fees to the states,

the states pay its membership fees to the feds, a set percentage across the board, anything above that set percentage has to be a choice made at each level.

This means that elected officials will think long and hard before spending your money, they are very close to you at the local level. and your vote does count for something to them.

if a state gets a fedral money request, the state then approves it and sends the request to the local governement. if you don't like it, then you rally against it. If your local gov decides to pay, then vote them out.

If a local government doesnt pass the request, then they don't pay, if 40% of the cities veto the request, and 60% passes it, then the 60% pay the amount requested of them individually, the other don't pay.

If a state doesn't pass the request then it doesn't pay.

This means that statistacally the feds would get most of the money requested, IF it was a reasonable request. If not they don't get much money. If they don't do what they promised with the money, then they must pay it back. This means, that if they come up with a request, that kinda sucks, and they are only going to get 40% of the requested money, and that 40% won;t get the job done, then they recind the request, and don't take the money. because they know they will fail with too little money, and they don't want to pay from their own income. (imports/exports)

Or they can re-request more money from the willing states, or they can re-request from all states, but this time they need to convince us its worth while to spend the money.

Law making would work similarly, putting laws that affect individuals as close to the individual as possible.

this means the feds can't make laws that take rights away from us. If they want to do that, then they need to amend the damned constitution.

They have circumvented the ratification process, by making statute laws.

ACTS ARE NOT LAWS. acts have the power of law, only if you agree to the contract, and then it ACTS as a law. Its an ACT of the fedral governement ON YOU.

We need to teach these things in our public schools.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #79 on: September 23, 2009, 08:28:17 AM »
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Offline ATT

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #80 on: September 23, 2009, 04:46:51 PM »
I really want a copy of that info att, is there anyway to get a copy.

Sheeze, d3, you're on a roll, you stay up all night on this stuff?

You keep this up and you'll have the worlds problems all solved before the rest of us have a chance to get -our- licks in (and that wouldn't be any fun, huh?).

Anyway, what info is that?

Tony


Offline exxcomm0n

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #81 on: September 23, 2009, 09:42:55 PM »
<snip>
I agree with you on all your points exxcom, But heres the rub, getting small businesses for a lot of things is not a possibilty in this business structure, there is so much regulation that no one can do it and make any money. This is a shame and will change.

Thank you d3. I didn't think you would have issue with any of the suggestions I laid out, and I'm glad that was a correct assumption.
These were laid out as suggestions because of the fact that freedom to choose is one of the most important rights the country I'm from (USA) was formed under, even though it may not be reflected in its (USA gov't) present day aims.

As to how the change you cite above will happen, there are 2 ways I see.

1.) Trying to legislate them out of existence.

2.) Mass refusal to live in fear of incarceration or persecution for refusing to obey those laws.

#1 has been tried time and again and has a very, very high failure rate.
#2 seems to be very faintly  removed from complete anarchy, but does historically have some rather compelling evidence as to its effectiveness.

I'll leave it up to the individual as to which they deem best, but would like to offer the reason why I see these as the 2 major ways major change happens and why one may be more effective than the other.
It was a sci-fi short story I read when young and impressionable called "And Then There Were None" (no, not the Agatha Christie story of the same name.)

Read it here: http://www.abelard.org/e-f-russell.php and see why it could have made such an impression on me. There are many other pieces of literature that say the same thing, but none I know of that are as easy and entertaining to read and understand.

P.S. #2 only works when you refuse to allow fear to rule your actions. Bravery is doing something even though you fear it for one reason or another. It takes others seeing your refusal to fear to empower them to make the same choices as you.

But to blame normal people who barely get by for shopping from walm@rt isn't really going to give a solution. Remember to put the blame of their actions squarely on wal  marts shoulders. They made the choices not to buy their products from the US. Its easier to change that one decision than millions, and yet the result is the same.

I do blame the individual for walm@rt mentality (nice allegorical reference and much less ambiguous than mine), but not completely by any means. The reason I feel this way you point out in a later post:

Businesses exist because the community in which it exists allows it to, this business owes its exsistance to the community that created it, and it should exist only to benefit the community, not to hurt it.

I blame walm@rt administration for the little regard for the ramifications of their actions, and gov't for making that expansion and exportation so easy with tax breaks that allowed them to occupy the entire country in a relatively short time.

Walm@rt made the choices they did because they were rewarded for them with higher profits. The only way those profits occurred was because people allowed them to.
I can't fault people for making the "hard and fast" decision to maximize their purchasing dollar, but I can blame them for not thinking farther than that as to the ramifications of those decisions.
Walm@rt (and MANY other businesses!) and gov't just made it possible and easier for them to not think farther into the long range implications of their actions because TIME to think seems the scarcest commodity we have these days.

On your enumerated points, RIGHT THE F ON!!!!! exactly

Good to know I'm not alone. ;)

On some of the other points d3 and others make in later posts, I'd like to offer my 2¢ (I just noticed again the near impossibility to type that cent character. Hmmmmmmmm.....)

Money vs. Barter.

Money used to be almost the same as barter as you got a physical good (metallic coin) in payment for a good or service. You can do other things with that metal besides exchange it. You can fashion a tool or good from it, use it as a weight, etc.
It was still taxed (as it was manufactured by gov't of one type or another), but it had value outside just the idea of its worth.

Money (larger denominations anyway) then became an IDEA represented by a paper note that has little other use besides its destruction as you cannot use it for any other purpose besides exchange that will not destroy its perceived value in some way.
It has no use that can be converted back into either: an exchangeable form if it is used for another purpose, or a good that is equal to the value it had as money.

You're taxed if you make money, you're taxed when you spend money, you're taxed if you save money. That makes it very easy to reason that money = tax, and it's not always the tax you see clearly printed out.
The other "hidden" tax is the disproportionate percentage of that spent dollar that goes to one of these:

a.) The materials and machining to make the product
b.) The labor it takes to make and sell the product
c.) The administration that creates and governs the manufacture and sale of the product

Where do you think the largest percentage goes to? Why is that the place?

If you chose c, it's my opinion you are correct.
I don't think its irresponsible to reward that administration for the risks it took to create that manufacture, but I do think it's irresponsible for them to reward themselves again and again for taking that risk when it no longer is a risk by disproportionately taking a larger and larger percentage as time goes on.

Barter seems to mostly ignore the part c as that part is assumed to be in parts
 a and b, and rightly should be.
People used to have and go to "barn raisings", and not just because of immediate personal benefit if it was their barn, but the benefit it afforded the community which came back in little benefits for everyone that over time that greatly outweighed immediate reward.

This dovetails nicely into the next point.

Local vs. foreign

The money saved by administration in exporting jobs to a cheaper environment works until those exports raise the standard of living in the land to which they were exported to the point where that country's standard of living supersedes the standard of living in the exporter country. Then wages and prices become higher there than they are "locally", and the pattern shifts back the opposite way.
It takes decades (if not longer) for this shift to happen, but history seems to have proven that it does in fact happen that way.

The people in the countries exported to benefit in the short run depending on whom is "cheaper" @ the moment, but who ALWAYS benefits?

Seems to me those that always benefit owe no allegiance to a country, but to the segment of society they are in, and act accordingly. It doesn't matter which country they are in, it matters how much they control that country (or those countries).

These OPINIONS I outline above seem to be very close to, if not outright communism. Does that mean we should go out and destroy the rich with physical force and abolish the notion of administration?

No.

Even communism has administration, and time has proved it can be as corrupt and self serving as any other form of gov't.
You can't have a society without some SORT of administration unless every individual is blessed with equal intelligence, and that just won't ever happen.
It all depends on what type of administration we choose to allow to happen.

My opinion is that we should stop obscenely rewarding a very small percentage of society for its administration, and that will only happen when a "hundredth monkey" paradigm shift occurs due to EDUCATION and reasoning. Things most don't seem to have TIME for these days.
Those that do have the time to think about these things (and seem to be paid for it) seem to be in administration. Hmmmmm.........

These are opinions only, and are worth what you paid for them = nothing (to simplify things greatly by not counting the cost of your PC, the time it took to learn to use it, the cost of your electricity to power it, the cost of your internet service, and the time spent to come to this thread and read my opinions).
They ONLY have worth if you take the time to think about why I might have personally felt it was worth my time to write them, how they could be reasoned to be right or wrong, and to take the time to post a response.

I invite debate on any and all opinions I have written as I value the time you may take to teach me their errors, if that's the way you choose to use your time and address them, as much as you've valued my opinions by choosing to respond to them. ;)

Now since I have no job bringing money in, I have to go spend my TIME weatherproofing the house so the little "extra" money I would otherwise spend inefficiently heating it can be saved this year, and next year, and the year after that to the greater benefit of myself and my community by forcing administration at the power company to lower costs because I need (pay) them less.
I'm only reason I'm here (OU) is because the only probable way I see the power company administration cutting costs (by cutting administrative wages or "workers", instead of cutting workers from other segments of the utility or buying cheaper foreign fuels), is if I (and many others) prove how much less they are needed via the profits they make.

Why didn't I just do that before when I had a job?
Because I didn't think I had the time it takes to invest in myself and my community that way.
Hmmm.......It seems time, and how I choose to spend it is the most important commodity I have.

See a pattern?  ;)
« Last Edit: September 23, 2009, 10:07:08 PM by exxcomm0n »

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #81 on: September 23, 2009, 09:42:55 PM »
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Offline the_big_m_in_ok

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #82 on: September 23, 2009, 10:21:37 PM »
exxcomm0n said:
Quote

Good to know I'm not alone. ;)
Almost out of time on this computer, but I strongly agree with what you and some of the others say.
Think on your feet and think for yourself!

--Lee

Offline d3adp00l

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #83 on: September 24, 2009, 07:27:26 AM »
att i was refering to that pdf. is that yours? i was under that impression.

Since a corporation is a legal fiction, and entity that exists by the will of the people, for the benefit of the people, it does not have the rights human beings have.

We have the right given to us by God to earn profit, to contract work, to sell goods, etc.

Businesses which employee humans and corporations do not have those rights, since we created them, we exist as a higher level of authority, but below God. As such we have the right to tell these entities what they can and can't do.

Personally I believe that a business should have the right to pay its employees, and to earn 10% profit, of which 5% is paid as a tax to the community in which it exists.

Corporations have the right to earn 20% profit, 10% of which is to be a tax paid to the community in which it exists.

Pay of people in a business or corporation should be limited.

This keeps the admin from simply paying themselves a rediculous amount and there by lowering their "profit".

People should trade hour for hour, regardless of their skill, or if they are working outside their skill.

Yes I do believe this. I am an electrician, if you ask me to dig a ditch, it is still taking my time, and lets say I suck at digging a ditch, in this system you would want to pay me less, But I say we should pay eachother the same rate no matter what. WHY?
Here is why, This will make people pay more attention to who you ask to do what. If you need a trench dug, you should find out who has a good reputation for digging trenches fast.

This makes people responsible for their own actions, if you don't do your homework, well then you learn. If you are trying to false advertise, you will be found out quickly.

This normally gets people wound up, "but I can't earn what I am worth, how can I get benefit from being good at what I do?, and on and on.

Heres how, if you suck, people won't ask you to work for them, so you must work for yourself in your field, to feed yourself, This will keep you from harming others, and will give you the ability to feed yourself.

If you are honorable and good at what you do, your reputation will be your reward, and people will seek you out to do work for them, and you will benefit from the fact that you will always be busy.

If you are really good at what you do, people will ask you to teach them, and in exchange for that you get to earn 5% profit on their time, and you get to help the community by paying 5% tax for the privilage of earning profit on others, 10% and 10% if you have stockholders and are a corp.

The stockholders are the owners of a corp, and they have the privilage to earn 10% on their investment, if they need a skilled person to run the corp, then they can hire someone and offer them part ownership.

Yes the individuals who buy things will have to pay more for a product made by a corp, but they know that extra money will benefit the community, and they get the benefit from a larger business for its stability.

This system will benefit all, and put the power in the hands of the people.

If you want to shirk your governments BS, then stop buying from businesses, this restricts their money, and riens them in, so you have an imediate, and direct recourse for your grievance against them. You don't have to wait years so you can try and vote someone else in, especially when in this system you are given only two real choices, and both are just as bad as the other.

Also, polictical parties should be illegal, just like gangs are. They hurt our communities, not help them.

I have an entire system for the election of officals.

Offline d3adp00l

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #84 on: September 24, 2009, 07:52:50 AM »
I have spent a lot more than one night thinking this out, analyzing the intent of the constitution, and the assumptions of the founding fathers. Not because they were the ultimate intelect, but they have experience that I don't and they had a system that benefited the people.

Hour for Hour, a little more info.

Let me ask you this, what is the largest single investment most of us will make?  Our home right.

at the peak of the market 500-600k was no big deal.

Lets say you bought that home for a bargain of 350k.

So what does that mean to you? Well if your a highly skilled worker you make around 25-30 per hour (if you also manage a crew normally)

So lets look at what that 30 year mortgage means to you. After interest you pay 2X the purchase price for the home (for simple math, I could amertize it, but...)

So 700K total cost to you, and you make 30 per hour, that means 23,333 hours of work to pay off that house and thats if you take 30$ home, taking taxes into consideration, it takes around 31,111 hours, if you paid every penny to the house, thats 14 years at 40 hours a week and 52 weeks a year.

14 YEARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

are you insane?!?!?!?!

Do you know what it takes to build a house? well I do, it takes 400 manhours, and an equal dollar value in materials. Most contractors charge around 75 per hour so 30,000 in labor and 30,000 in materials. But lets go back to hours. 400 hours labor, and 400 hours worth of material

Thats 800 hours, Lets double that just to give room for error, so 1600 hours.

1600 hours is 40 weeks, or .769% of a year. Now I want you to think about this, could you build a house in that time? 40 weeks? Yes you could, I personally could do it less than half that time.

Do you now see how if you agree to trade hour for hour, how much you benefit. Sure you COULD charge twice what someone else does, but when you do, so does everyone else, and guess what you pay 14 years for what should cost you less than a year.

So by letting go of your short sited short term benefit, you gain huge amounts of life long benefit. You no longer need to try and get the absolute most money for your time, you just saved 1/2 to 1/3 of your adult life, imagine what else you could do.

How do you think we have so many people sitting on their ass pushing papers, both in govern, and in private businesses, because those of us who actually work are giving them our time our earnings so they can get paid.


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #84 on: September 24, 2009, 07:52:50 AM »
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Offline exxcomm0n

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #85 on: September 24, 2009, 08:36:40 AM »
@ ATT

I think d3 is meaning your PDF collection of useful knowledge you showed a screen shot of.

Come to think of it, I wouldn't mind a copy myself, if you would please sir.

I have a little library of my own that I'd be willing to barter/share, but not NEARLY as nice or organized as your "one stop shop"  PDF solution. ;)

If size is an issue, could you burn it to DVD and send that if you were paypal'd postage and disk charges?

The directory listing isn't truly representative as some are sorted, some are not.

Offline d3adp00l

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #86 on: September 24, 2009, 08:38:04 AM »
ya that. I would love a copy of wikipedia too, but I dont think you can get that since it can change.


Offline X00013

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #87 on: September 25, 2009, 02:48:37 AM »
It really is that simple. If the people of the United States KNEW somthing, they would burn down every factory the GOV gave money too. The real working people of the American World would burn wall street, and then and only then would the rest of the world understand that America is a free world. That WE the people only want want food water and shelter from the govs and CORPs that control fake gold for the american, dont get me fukn fukn started, I'll blow the whole fukn place up. Obama and every president before him up before the Brits invaded can suk my w-2/1099/ and some new form,  I call it " I grow my own food here's my fuckn shotgun up your fuckn ass US.GOV, sorry sir I filed my .22 up ur wifes , she liked no? Damn that Congressman, had i u known she liked big dick I could have had the guy making my guns fuck her" trust me , the gun makers wife wouldnt know, MWAHH

Offline ATT

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #88 on: September 25, 2009, 06:57:52 AM »
att i was refering to that pdf. is that yours? i was under that impression.
Come to think of it, I wouldn't mind a copy myself, if you would please sir.
 
Guys, this collection was intended for personal use only and is in no way fit for public distribution, I'm sure you can guess why.

The post about using Acrobat to 'front-end' your file collection was intended as a 'helpul hint' or 'howto' on one way I found to centralize your file-access making it easier to navigate.

Give it a try, if you think a blow-by-blow 'instructable' would be in order, I'll put one together, but it's pretty self-explanatory as-is.

Tony


Offline exxcomm0n

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #89 on: September 25, 2009, 07:43:37 AM »
Hi Tony,

I can completely sympathize with the issues of possible legality of "sharing" purchased books, and thank you for taking the time to reply to us.
I hereby withdraw my request.

Your suggestion about building a database of DIY info is a very good one though, and as you see from my last post, is not something that I haven't thought of myself (although mine is not NEARLY as nice as yours).

I think I'll go for the web front end as I can hack up an index.html pointing to the docs in my files system easier than using Acrobat 5 (the newest copy i have) to build a front end.

Thank you for the suggestions though! You've got a nice library there!
« Last Edit: September 25, 2009, 08:29:07 AM by exxcomm0n »

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #89 on: September 25, 2009, 07:43:37 AM »

 

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