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Author Topic: I see an economic diasater coming...  (Read 869206 times)

Offline ATT

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #60 on: September 22, 2009, 04:56:26 AM »
Quote from: the_big_m_in_ok
(where's PS)
Palm Springs. I'm in the high-desert, about 30 mi north.

The fact is we live in a forced global economy, and it ruins everyones economy. Lets take a look,

Sure, illegal immigration has hurt our job market, but it's not a major player by itself.

So has importing H1B-visa tech workers.
So has outsourcing phone-support and back-office work to India.
So has importing produce from South America.
So has selling our manufacturing plants to Japan and China.
So has exporting automotive assembly to Mexico.
So has outsourcing CAD, programming and graphics projects to Korea, China and India.
So has selling mortgages to unsophisticated, unqualified borrowers and then packaging the loans in AAA securities that are sold world-wide.

You get the idea.

It's the combined effect of 'accepted' predatory business practices that have the effect of deleting jobs from our economy and sending money out of the country, where it'll be spent at the above respective (offshore) locations.

And sure they know all this, but as I said in a previous post, 'they don't care', it's all about 'immediate gains' and 'I got mine'.

Now, if the regulatory environment is such that it's conducive to unfettered greed (greed is a great tool, almost as good as fear), the agenda setters say: 'so much the better'...why do you think the regulations (or lack thereof) are as they are?

Because those with the more 'ulterior' agenda control legislation (they 'own' the legislators).

Globalists? New-Worlders? One-Worlders? Communists? Socialists? Fascists?

Don't even bother, they're just labels. None of them would adequately describe what 'they' are (although the effects on the street may resemble many or even all of the above).

Which returns us to the last question in my previous post, since we can't 'save the world', how are you, individually, prepared to weather the storm?

Tony



Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #60 on: September 22, 2009, 04:56:26 AM »

Offline the_big_m_in_ok

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #61 on: September 22, 2009, 06:09:36 AM »
ATT said:
Quote
Palm Springs. I'm in the high-desert, about 30 mi north.
Very good.  My parents bought a place for recreation in Idyllwild before they retired.  Before that they bought a trailer to take camping trips to Joshua Tree Park in the high desert.

Quote
... You get the idea.
... It's the combined effect of 'accepted' predatory business practices that have the effect of deleting jobs from our economy and sending money out of the country, where it'll be spent at the above respective (offshore) locations.
... And sure they know all this, but as I said in a previous post, 'they don't care', it's all about 'immediate gains' and 'I got mine'.

...Which returns us to the last question in my previous post, since we can't 'save the world', how are you, individually, prepared to weather the storm?
Okay, I have a definite answer:
Money and gold are a waste of time and resources to own.  Can you eat either one?

Canned food, bottled water, soap, toothpaste&toothbrush, hammer&nails, axe&hatchet, miner's pickaxe&shovel, bow&arrow, matches&firestarter kits, camping equipment, guns&supplies of gun ammo reloading equipment, survival books bought and studied...
Here's a good one suggested by the SciFi author Robert Heinlein:  Have your son or daughter join the Scouts and him, her and you go camping.

You see?  In simple terms:  Imitate the Mormons in terms of food, but don't advertise it, or you'll become an inviting target for armed gangs.

--Lee


Offline PinkRoses31

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #62 on: September 22, 2009, 07:12:48 AM »
I think the best recreation thing to do is to play a certain sport that will test your heart and muscle endurance; or clean the your whole house! In that case, you don't actually made just only an exercise but also you clean your house!


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Offline d3adp00l

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #63 on: September 22, 2009, 10:05:00 AM »
I love it when people toss in the racism card, when you point out the fact that cross border commerce hurts both sides.

First i don't care what you call me.

Second what was done to the native peoples was an atrocity. But it was done
            and nothing now can change it.

Your comments on "aliens" etc. does not take away the validity of my points. So don't bring up an opinion which has nothing to do with the subject.

Its a distraction tactic.

I don't care where your from, what difference does it make in this discussion, none.

Again you and many others can't see the point past your own hangups.

Until you can get past the race card, and see how the actions of individuals affect the lives of those individuals you are missing the needed understanding to see the solution.

I would feel the same if the people doing this were white, purple or any other color.

The fact is this profit maximization theory of business that condones outsourcing of jobs for profit of the few, hurts everyone.

Again I make the point, people diversify their stocks into different separated areas for stability, then why in the hell and we consolidating the worlds economic system. Its insane, and hurts everyone but a very few.

Here are some more facts

Fact: people are different
Fact: they are different largly due to their location
Fact: those differences are interesting
Opinion: why would we want to melt everything to one pot, and loss our differences? That means everything would be the same the world over, screw that its boring.

Fact: some of us should not be around others. I know who I am, and I know that some types of people wouldn't want to live next to me, and I wouldn't want to live next to them, we have different kinds of lives. What is wrong with knowing your different, and wanting be seperate from those who you would annoy? Finding like minded people and being around them is not racism, its responsible action.

what do you people not understand about these things? when will you grow past where you are, and get to the point where many of us are, we don't care about race, we care about others and what is best for them and us, because you can have a situation thats good for both.


Again I repeat, my points stand, your comments are not relevant to the points I made.


Offline exxcomm0n

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #64 on: September 22, 2009, 02:49:29 PM »
I agree with quite a few points made in this thread, but not all by any means.

Is a collapse coming? You better believe it!
USA gov't just did some cosmetic work to pretty up a bleak forecast for a little space of time, while making the "bottom" of the crash a LOT lower then it would have been had we had just tightened our belts and waited it out.

I think a good part of this came from going for the cheapest (Wal***t mentality).

If you spend your money with local business, most of it stays local and the dollar you spent buying your neighbors goods or services will probably make its way back to you in time.
Trying to save a few pennies or dollars by buying from a national or global retailer takes that money out of your area and puts it in the pocket of d3's "6%".
The 6% spend the majority of that money amongst themselves and it never makes it way back to your area killing your neighbors business.
Your neighbor no longer has money to spend where you work since they have fewer dollars to spend (if any) and are forced to buy the lowest price goods which takes the money out of the area the same way.
You get laid off (or your business fails) and you buy less, but still go to that "cheapest price" place to get the "most" for your money.

It's a very vicious circle, but it takes time and experience, or GOOD ECONOMIC EDUCATION to realize that cheaper is (most times) not better in terms of quality, selection, and/or local economic stability.

Part of that education is knowing the difference between a "want" and a "need".

A big screen TV or "Hummer" is not a need, it's just something media has convinced you that you need.

Anyway....on the topic of weathering the collapse:

1.) Get to know your neighbors and support their business, most times they'll return the favor.
If they don't, try another business as close to home as you can.

2.) Try to get a handle on good barter practices.
Barter sucks as it's a lot easier for someone else to price a good or service you need, but when money is scarce, barter makes a hell of a lot of sense.
Be aware that's gov't doesn't like it because it's a bitch to tax.

3.) Figure out how to to be the most self sufficient when it comes to feeding/sheltering your family or yourself.
It's a lot harder than it sounds, but societies used to function that way, no reason why they can't again.

4.) Stockpile knowledge as much as any other commodity.
Your ability to do something your neighbor can't may be the only thing you have to barter with for something you need.
When you do sell a service, do it like you were doing it for yourself. Quality and durability is going to become much more important than the cheapest price.

5.) Be aware of the news (from all kinds of outlets) and use those resources to make good reasoned decisions.
Most media these days is at least 70% fear based and there is no better candidate for being led by the nose than someone who's in a continual state of fear.
Most things led by the nose are on their way to slaughter.

These should be very basic concepts that anyone knows, but I'm always surprised at how many don't.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #64 on: September 22, 2009, 02:49:29 PM »
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Offline Cap-Z-ro

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #65 on: September 22, 2009, 11:03:37 PM »


If you think that you have a fairly firm grasp on all things money driven, this may be a bit of an eye opener for some...I have passing acquaintance with some these subjects on the site below...none of this really surprising when you consider human nature.

http://www.newpeopleorder.com/

" ALL CURRENCY IN THE WORLD IS TOXIC RESULTING IN THE FOLLOWING:

1. You are legally a debtor and chattel (property) owned by a hidden creditor. "


I consider myself 'unnumerate'...but it was easy for even me to understand after hearing these 2 guys being interviewed...coincidentally, this stuff has been eating away at me in the background for sometime, off and on...but more so lately.

Regards...


Offline ATT

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #66 on: September 22, 2009, 11:17:40 PM »
Stockpile knowledge as much as any other commodity.

A couple of years ago, I started putting together resources I thought would be helpful if our infrastructure and access to information failed.

At first, it was just a collection of files with no particular organization but as I collected more resources, I decided they had to be more accessable and easier to use, so I thought about a database.

I run an Apache server locally that mirrors my web-server so I can test php code before uploading it to the main server. This means I also have a MySQL database available on my desktop machine, I figured this would be one way to organize my files (since that's how I drive my site).

But then I thought better of it.

What I needed was a way to access all my information easily, from one console with minimum software dependencies.

The other requirements were that it had to be self-contained, cross-platform compatible with *nix, win and mac and easy enough to maintain that it didn't require an IT guru.

I settled on PDF.

I built a directory-structure that was sensible (and extensable).
I converted any files I wanted to include to PDF (if they weren't already).
I stored the files in logical locations in the directory tree.

I then made another PDF file that was just a 'picture', since it's only purpose would be to act as a front-end. I then bookmarked every file I had put into my directory-tree from this front-end.

(I said it was technically 'easy', I didn't say it wouldn't be 'tedious').

The locations of the files on-disk do not have to reflect where they are shown on the bookmark nav-bar in Acrobat. Since bookmarks are just pointers, you are free to organize (or re-organize) the presentation-layer any way you see fit without moving any files on your drive.

The result was that any file (including full-books, which I have a lot of) could be accessed from this one location, the files are easily browsed and you can even have a modicum of 'searchability' since Adobe Reader includes that capability.

I've included a couple of screenshots of the setup, pretty much anybody can put this sort of thing together.

So far, it's about 1.5 Gigs. I used InnoSetup to build a distribution (setup) file so I could get a copy to my daughter and still maintain the directory structure, but it still weighs-in at over 700 megs after compressing, so it's not a downloadable item. I put it on a SanDisk and sent it to her.

You could do the same thing using HTML but it would require a browser, Acrobat Reader or another PDF browser-plugin and involve a lot of hand-editing anytime you wanted to add to the files you wanted your HTML to access.

With Acrobat, the work is reduced to pretty much a 'point and click' edit cycle and only requires Acrobat Reader (which is free) to access.

If you don't have Acrobat-Pro (which provides you with the Distiller printer-driver), you can substitute PDF-Creator, which is available free from sourceforge.net (you'll need this to convert and 'create' some PDF files to get this going, after all).

Although this is a self-sufficiency collection, you could do this for an 'overunity' collection (or any subject with a lot of reference material), as well.

Screenshots:

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #66 on: September 22, 2009, 11:17:40 PM »
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Offline spoondini

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #67 on: September 22, 2009, 11:43:28 PM »
This topic is not really an offshoot of the overunity discussions, but I couldn't help but chime in.

I've noticed a common theme regarding the economic calamity upon us due to outsourcing/offshoring and comments regarding how both countries sustain economic damage.

If this is true when I trade across an invisible line (say the Mexico/US border), then why is it not true when I trade across the invisible line between my home and my neighbors home or the invisible line between New York and New Jersey?

Should we stop trading all together and survive based only on our own productive efforts (can't use any tools you traded for....)?

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that it's obvious that trade and division of labor yield benefits to all involved - I make the pizza and you brew the beer and we exchange.  It has also been 'reasonably demonstrated' that the larger the trade area/more people involved the rewards become even greater.  The US grew to be an global economic powerhouse partially due to the inability of states to put up trade barriers between each other resulting in an ENOURMOUS marketplace.  Many nations have emulated the approach with neighboring nations, and liberalized internal trade, and one of the results has been an unarguable massive reduction in the % of the world population living in poverty.

So the question is, where is the invisible line that determines when trade is beneficial versus detrimental?

Offline ATT

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #68 on: September 22, 2009, 11:58:16 PM »
If you think that you have a fairly firm grasp on all things money driven, this may be a bit of an eye opener for some...http://www.newpeopleorder.com/

A few posts back, I listed a few marketing-ploys that are commonly used to separate people from their money.

To reiterate, the accepted formula is:

* Promote fear
* Suspend Disbelief
* Sell Hope

I'd say this guy knows his (marketing) stuff.

With this in mind, do you -really- think the guy that's promoting this is named Ronald MacDonald?

Whois Record
domain:                          newpeopleorder.com
created:                         26-Sep-2008
last-changed:                 15-Nov-2008
registration-expiration:     26-Sep-2009

nserver:                         ns57.1and1.com 74.208.2.9
nserver:                         ns58.1and1.com 74.208.3.8

status:                          CLIENT-TRANSFER-PROHIBITED

registrant-firstname:            Ronald
registrant-lastname:            Mac Donald

registrant-organization:        Complaint Magazine and News
registrant-street1:              18920 Hidden Valley Rd
registrant-pcode:                95446
registrant-state:                 CA
registrant-city:                   Guerneville
registrant-ccode:                US
registrant-phone:                +1.7078691993
registrant-email:               


If you're going to buy anything from this site, you'd better hurry up, it goes down on the 26th if he doesn't re-up soon.
.

Offline ATT

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #69 on: September 23, 2009, 12:20:31 AM »
So the question is, where is the invisible line that determines when trade is beneficial versus detrimental?

It's not a physical boundary or a national border, it's the idea that profit can be increased by overly excluding the consumers who provide the income in the trade-circuit.

This results in diminishing returns as time goes on and has been exemplified repeatedly by the exodus of good paying manufacturing and other jobs from the U.S. economy.

Quote
If this is true when I trade across an invisible line (say the Mexico/US border), then why is it not true when I trade across the invisible line between my home and my neighbors home or the invisible line between New York and New Jersey?

Because the money stays in the country. Your neighbors buy things in the country. This creates and/or maintains yet other jobs in the country.

Quote
The US grew to be an global economic powerhouse partially due to the inability of states to put up trade barriers between each other resulting in an ENOURMOUS marketplace

The difference here is that there is a normalization of labor costs in states and countries that enjoy roughly the same standard of living. Largely, the States are contiguous, and so it is with Europe so economic interchange has commonly beneficial results.

How would the above compare the standard of living in China or Mexico?
That's why labor costs in those countries are a fraction of U.S. or European costs.

Do they buy U.S. goods with the wages paid by U.S. concerns for their labor?
They can't afford them.

Have the U.S. manufacturing facilities that used to produce these goods been shut down?
Yes

Are those incomes and the resulting tax-base now diminished?
Yes.

There is a balance that needs to be struck if a sustainable economy is to be maintained.

No argument needs be made, just look at the economic conditions that prevail currently.

« Last Edit: September 23, 2009, 12:59:10 AM by ATT »

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #69 on: September 23, 2009, 12:20:31 AM »
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Offline ATT

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #70 on: September 23, 2009, 05:37:56 AM »
.
Here's some stuff that goes along with my last post:

In China, one factory owner is bemoaning the fact that wages have risen to an average of $160/mo (that's about $1.00/hr if based on a 40 hr week.)
(2009 - Business Week)
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_13/b3977049.htm

In Mexico, workers in U.S. auto factories have conceded to lower their wages  to compete with pressures from China, some positions as low as $1.50/hr
(2008 - mlive.com, Michigan)
http://www.mlive.com/business/index.ssf/2008/06/mexicos_auto_unions_agree_to_c.html

With wages like that, how much economic reciprocity do you think those workers can manage in buying US or EU goods?

Example: How many jobs are -really- wiped out when a U.S. auto factory closes?
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/08/28/MN6919EL3P.DTL

The dollar's going down:
http://www.reuters.com/article/usDollarRpt/idUSTKW00658220090922

More jobs are wiped out, the tax-base reduced, more government funding required to deal with the jobless and medically uninsured, more financial insolvency leading to bankruptcy, more foreclosures and loan defaults, collateral-layoffs from dependent businesses, the Fed prints more money, the Dollar's losing value, maybe there's something I'm not seeing here about why it's good to let Free-Trade have 'Free-Reign'.
.

Offline the_big_m_in_ok

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #71 on: September 23, 2009, 06:04:53 AM »
ATT said:
Quote
Example: How many jobs are -really- wiped out when a U.S. auto factory closes?
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/08/28/MN6919EL3P.DTL
My thoughts exactly.  35,000 - 50,000 total by ripple effect.  When people stop trying to look for work, the unemployment rate effectively doubles.  The official rate in CA is 12.2% this month.  About 25% unofficially.

Quote
The dollar's going down:
http://www.reuters.com/article/usDollarRpt/idUSTKW00658220090922
That's why buying and selling currency for profit is stupid.  Nobody eats quarters(without serious gastric problems(!)   :o   ::)   :P 
Commodities are a better way to go.  Barter is a better way to go.  More human supervision of quality(If you don't like it, walk away).
Less planned obsolescence.


Quote
More jobs are wiped out, the tax-base reduced, more government funding required to deal with the jobless and medically uninsured, more financial insolvency leading to bankruptcy, more foreclosures and loan defaults, collateral-layoffs from dependent businesses, the Fed prints more money, the Dollar's losing value, maybe there's something I'm not seeing here about why it's good to let Free-Trade have 'Free-Reign'.
.
It's a vicious cycle, all right.  But as long as human nature is greedy, nothing will change for the better.

--Lee


Offline onthecuttingedge2005

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #72 on: September 23, 2009, 06:16:42 AM »
How will Barter support our Military that protects our country from invaders?

nobody will want to join the military on a retirement of Barter either.

that is the only reason why Barter won't work in America.

I am not against Barter but I am against losing our military defences in the good old USA.

How about buying a new C-5 Galaxy Class or even a AC-130
or our latest stealth fighters on Barter? A-10 Warthogs for a shipment of Bananas? Passenger Jets for a cargo of pop tarts?

won't work.
Jerry

Offline the_big_m_in_ok

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #73 on: September 23, 2009, 06:49:40 AM »
How will Barter support our Military that protects our country from invaders?
that is the only reason why Barter won't work in America.
I anticipate the economy to collapse like the Roman Empire did in the Fifth Century.  They all do.  No exceptions.

The various reasons for this to happen are posted above.

Barter may be all that's left.

--Lee


Offline nightlife

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Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #74 on: September 23, 2009, 07:02:53 AM »
Our economy's are colasping as have all in the past and that is due to our own greed.
 Human beings are greedy by nature. No one wants to be equal, at least not the majority.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: I see an economic diasater coming...
« Reply #74 on: September 23, 2009, 07:02:53 AM »

 

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