Storing Cookies (See : http://ec.europa.eu/ipg/basics/legal/cookies/index_en.htm ) help us to bring you our services at overunity.com . If you use this website and our services you declare yourself okay with using cookies .More Infos here:
https://overunity.com/5553/privacy-policy/
If you do not agree with storing cookies, please LEAVE this website now. From the 25th of May 2018, every existing user has to accept the GDPR agreement at first login. If a user is unwilling to accept the GDPR, he should email us and request to erase his account. Many thanks for your understanding

User Menu

Custom Search

Author Topic: AC from Joule Thief Secondary/pick-up  (Read 132997 times)

jeanna

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3546
AC from Joule Thief Secondary/pick-up
« on: June 16, 2009, 09:11:33 PM »
Hi everybody,

I decided to start this thread as a place to explore using the AC which is produced by the joule thief pick-up as AC.  (And not turn it back into DC)

So many of us have worked with the joule thief circuit (jtc) with Secondary/pick-up; and we have been successful in many ways. I have been delighted with the results I have had using the secondary/pick-up. With the scope it is clearly an AC wave. The x axis is somewhere close to the center of the wave.

As an AC phenomenon it needs a different approach from DC to get the greatest results.

My surprise 2 tier circuit gave me a hint at the possibilities and now that I have accomplished my first lighting of a fluoro tube with a hand wound toroid, it is time for me to address this.

[BTW, the regular joule thief thread started by Pirate88179 is the beginning of this thread. And, I consider this thread to be a thinner thread spun off from that one. Reading that thread is probably a prerequisite for anyone here.  sorry, there are no shortcuts.  :D]

My favorite inspirational drawing is below.
It may need explanation and I will add some of that through the day today.

I don't know when my time will run out to modify this initial post, so, I just want to say that in the drawing below is a set of options for using the power from a generator.

Half of the drawing deals with power from an ac generator and the other half from a dc generator. It didn't matter where the initial generator was.
This is true for us as well.
I use a 1.2v battery and stprue uses a variation from the wall power that makes his dc 1.5v as well.

We are not making our pulses by "disruptive discharge" instead we are using a transistor. So, for us, the story begins after the first connection, I think.
However, it is always a good idea to see the whole story, because there may be a clue to an innovation we can use in our joule thief circuits.

I invite anyone else who wants to explore AC from the JT to join me... and help me and others accomplish in this specific direction.

thanks to all,

jeanna
« Last Edit: June 17, 2009, 02:11:34 AM by jeanna »

nievesoliveras

  • elite_member
  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1996
Re: AC from Joule Thief Secondary/pick-up
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2009, 09:48:41 PM »
Lady @jeanna

Count me in.

Jesus

jeanna

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3546
Re: AC from Joule Thief Secondary/pick-up
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2009, 09:57:04 PM »
Welcome, jesus!

and thank you,

jeanna

Mk1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2068
Re: AC from Joule Thief Secondary/pick-up
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2009, 04:34:41 AM »
@jeanna

Do you see any difference between the different type of jt (bifiliar- or other ways you tested) when it comes to the pickup output .

Mark

i Guess some scoop shot of the jt Vs pickup coil out , could be a good start .

Anyone !

jeanna

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3546
Re: AC from Joule Thief Secondary/pick-up
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2009, 05:40:32 AM »
Hi MK1,

Sure, The toroid itself makes pulsed wave with the x axis on the bottom. (or top if the wires are reversed.)

so it is_____||_____||_____||_____
sometimes it is irregular like
_____||_|_||______|_|___|__|___|||_|||_____|__|__

Once the secondary is wound the pulses go down as well as up.
Sometimes they are also irregular.
If the secondary is wound all one way the all the way back it looks somewhere in between the second line above and one with the spikes going both ways.

The MK1 has the best quality wave, without a doubt.

The thing I do not know, is if it matters. I think it should, but if the pulses come very fast the effect may be the same. I do not know.

I would also love to have someone with a scope that works on a computer and who has a MK1 wound compare it with the other types.

It can be very smooth with a capacitor at the base resistor too.

I saw one of those last night with the toroid bifilar and cap. It looked like this
_____/^\_____/^\_____
sort of wide spike going up along a line.

jeanna


nievesoliveras

  • elite_member
  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1996
Re: AC from Joule Thief Secondary/pick-up
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2009, 03:04:14 PM »
Lady @jeanna

Is there any clearer schematic of the one posted. Or, could you draw a clearer one with paint and some schematic symbols from the present era?

Jesus

jeanna

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3546
Re: AC from Joule Thief Secondary/pick-up
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2009, 06:24:09 PM »
Hi jesus,

My apologies for the quality.

I am in that process. I cannot find the page where this drawing came from, at the moment. I spent much time yesterday copying pages from the Tesla lecture in London, because I thought it was there.
Now, I think this comes from the Tesla lecture in New York, but maybe later.

I think that book was stored on microfiche, because it is really small. My pdf program can make it look pretty good, but it is a slow process.

I did not realize I didn't have the page handy or I would have waited to start the thread.

thank you,

jeanna

jeanna

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3546
Re: AC ... Tesla Lecture at Franklin Institute (partial)
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2009, 09:54:39 PM »
I have made a fair copy of the text that relates to the diagram. I took 2 half pics too. This may not fit on one post
My advice is to read this in a relaxed frame of mind. Much of what he says has to do with the work around he needed because he did not have a transistor. There are some very interesting things to ponder.
Quote
from Tesla:
To obtain very rapid vibra-
tion in a circuit of some inertia, a great stretching force or differ-
ence of potential is necessary. Incidentally, when the E. M. F. is
very great, the condenser which is usually employed in connec-
tion with the circuit need but have a small capacity, and many
other advantages are gained. With a view of raising the E. M. F.
to a many times greater value than obtainable from ordinary
distribution circuits, a rotating transformer g is used, as indi-
cated at i la, Fig. 165, or else a separate high potential machine
is driven by means of a motor operated from the generator G.
The latter plan is in fact preferable, as changes are easier made.
The connections from the high tension winding are quite similar
to those in branch la with the exception that a condenser c,
which should be adjustable, is connected to the high tension
circuit. Usually, also, an adjustable self-induction coil in series
with the circuit has been employed in these experiments. When
the tension of the currents is very high, the magnet ordinarily
used in connection with the discharger is of comparatively small

p.316

value, as it is quite easy to adjust the dimensions of the circuit
so that oscillation is maintained. The employment of a steady
E. M. F. in the high frequency conversion affords some advan-
tages over the employment of alternating E. M. F., as the adjust-
ments are much simpler and the action can be easier controlled.
But unfortunately one is limited by the obtainable potential dif-
ference. The winding also breaks down easily in consequence
of the sparks which form between the sections of the armature
or commutator when a vigorous oscillation takes place. Besides,
these transformers are expensive to build. It has been found by
experience that it is best to follow the plan illustrated at iiia. [top one]
In this arrangement a rotating transformer g, is employed to
convert the low tension direct currents into low frequency alter-
nating currents, preferably also of small tension. The tension
of the currents is then raised in a stationary transformer T. The
secondary s of this transformer is connected to an adjustable con-
denser c which discharges through the gap or discharger dd, placed
in either of the ways indicated, through the primary p of a dis-
ruptive discharge coil, the high frequency current being obtained
from the secondary s of this coil, as described on previous occa-
sions. This will undoubtedly be found the cheapest and most con-
venient way of converting direct currents.
   The three branches of the circuit A represent the usual cases
met in practice when alternating currents are converted. In
Fig. 1b a condenser c., generally of large capacity, is connected to the
circuit L containing the devices L L, m m. The devices m m are sup-
posed to be of high self-induction so as to bring the frequency of
the circuit more or less to that of the dynamo. In this instance
the discharger d d should best have a number of makes and breaks
per second equal to twice the frequency of the dynamo. If not
so, then it should have at least a number equal to a multiple or
even fraction of the dynamo frequency. It should be observed,
referring to ib, that the conversion to a high potential is also
effected when the discharger d d, which is shown in the sketch, is
omitted. But the effects which are produced by currents which
rise instantly to high values, as in a disruptive discharge, are
entirely different from those produced by dynamo currents which
rise and fall harmonically. So, for instance, there might be in a
given case a number of makes and breaks at d d equal to just
twice the frequency of the dynamo, or in other words, there may
be the same number of fundamental oscillations as would be pro-


p.317

duced without the discharge gap, and there might even not be any
quicker superimposed vibration ; yet the differences of potential at
the various points of the circuit, the impedance and other pheno-
mena, dependent upon the rate of change, will bear no similarity in
the two cases. Thus, when working with currents discharging dis-
ruptively, the element chiefly to be considered is not the frequency,
as a student might be apt to believe, but the rate of change per
unit of time. With low frequencies in a certain measure the same
effects may be obtained as with high frequencies, provided the rate
of change is sufficiently great. So if a low frequency current is
raised to a potential of, say, 75,000 volts, and the high tension cur-
rent passed through a series of high resistance lamp filaments, the
importance of the rarefied gas surrounding the filament is clearly
noted, as will be seen later; or, if a low frequency current of several
thousand amperes is passed through a metal bar, striking phe-
nomena of impedance are observed, just as with currents of high
frequencies. But it is, of course, evident that with low frequency
currents it is impossible to obtain such rates of change per unit of
time as with high frequencies, hence the effects produced by the
latter are much more prominent. It is deemed advisable to
make the preceding remarks, inasmuch as many more recently
described effects have been unwittingly identified with high
frequencies. Frequency alone in reality does not mean anything,
except when an undisturbed harmonic oscillation is considered.
   In the branch iiib a similar disposition to that in ib is illustrated,
with the difference that the currents discharging through the gap
d d are used to induce currents in the secondary s of a trans-
former T. In such case the secondary should be provided with an
adjustable condenser for the purpose of tuning it to the primary.
   lib illustrates a plan of alternate current high frequency
conversion which is most frequently used and which is found to
be most convenient. This plan has been dwelt upon in detail on
previous occasions and need not be described here.
   Some of these results were obtained by the use of a high
frequency alternator. A description of such machines will be
found in my original paper before the American Institute of
Electrical Engineers, and in periodicals of that period, notably
in THE ELECTRICAL ENGINEER of March 18, 1891.

I will now proceed with the experiments.
Quote
endquote
pic replay:

nievesoliveras

  • elite_member
  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1996
Re: AC from Joule Thief Secondary/pick-up
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2009, 02:37:24 AM »
Thank you Lady @jeanna

Now we need to know what each symbol is, or its modern equivalent.

Jesus
« Last Edit: June 18, 2009, 03:21:51 AM by nievesoliveras »

jeanna

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3546
Re: AC from Joule Thief Secondary/pick-up
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2009, 06:27:37 AM »
Thank you jesus. The pic looks great on its side and the letters are clear. That microfiche keeps looking better!

OK I want to add some more from a later part of that same lecture because for me the 2 concepts are the same.
There is such a lot of detail we do not need in our post tesla world. The details about how to control the sparking machinery and the ways to make lights etc. But here is another segment with a picture that relates to the above drawing.

Always remember, we are using a transistor in place of his spark gaps.

This is Tesla's 3 lamps example.

jeanna
Quote
begin quote
Referring to Fig. 1830, B and BJ are very stout copper bars
connected at their lower ends to plates c and c 1 respectively, of a
condenser, the opposite plates of the latter being connected to the
terminals of the secondary s of a high-tension transformer, the
primary p of which is supplied with alternating currents from an
ordinary low-frequency dynamo & or distribution circuit. The
p339


condenser discharges through an adjustable gap d d as usual. By
establishing a rapid vibration it was found quite easy to perform
the following curious experiment. The bars B and B1  were joined
at the top by a low-voltage lamp L3 ; a little lower was placed by
means of clamps c c, a 50-volt lamp L2 ; and still lower another 100-
volt lamp L1 ; and finally, at a certain distance below the latter
lamp, an exhausted tube T. By carefully determining the po-
sitions of these devices it was found practicable to maintain them

all at their proper illuminating power. Yet they were all con-
nected in multiple arc to the two stout copper bars and required
widely different pressures. This experiment requires of course
some time for adjustment but is quite easily performed.
In Figs. 1835 and 1836', two other experiments are illustrated
which, unlike the previous experiment, do not require very care-
ful adjustments. In Fig. 183b, two lamps, L1 and L2, the former a

p340

100-volt and the latter a 50-volt are
placed in certain positions as
indicated, the 100-volt lamp being below the 50-volt lamp. When
the arc is playing at d  d and the sudden discharges are passed
through the bars B B,, the 50-volt lamp will, as a rule, burn brightly,
or at least this result is easily secured, while the 100-volt lamp
will burn very low or remain quite dark. Fig. 183b. Now the
bars B B! may be joined at the top by a thick cross bar B2 and it
is quite easy to maintain the 100-volt lamp at full candle-power
while the 50-volt lamp remains dark, Fig. 183c. These results,
as I have pointed out previously, should not be considered to be
due exactly to frequency but rather to the time rate of change
which may be great, even with low frequencies. A great many
other results of the same kind, equally interesting, especially to
those who are only used to manipulate steady currents, may be
obtained and they afford precious clues in investigating the na-
ture of electric currents.
   In the preceding experiments I have already had occasion to
show some light phenomena and it would now be proper to study
these in particular ; but to make this investigation more com-
plete I think it necessary to make first a few remarks on the
subject of electrical resonance which has to be always observed
in carrying out these experiments.
Quote
end quote

jeanna

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3546
Re: AC from Joule Thief Secondary/pick-up
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2009, 06:44:41 AM »
OK now, I will post the 2 tier.
Later I will change and fix it to more resemble the 3 lights drawing fig 183a,b,c.

For now, I just want to put this together for everybody on one page.
Please note all the different frequencies and voltages coming off the 2 secondaries of the main jt toroid.

The primary joule thief to the left has a basic jt light lighting and 2 secondary coils on the toroid.
One of them is lighting a few lights. I think I called it 1S2. Note the freq and volts.


 The other main secondary coil goes to another breadboard, which is shown. On that breadboard are all those circuits that are being fed off that primary toroid from its larger secondary. Please note all the different frequencies and voltages here too.
These different circuits are using the inductance of 2 or 3 and sometimes 4 inductor coils.

On the breadboard, the second level toroid (on the right) is not a joule thief because it has no other jt parts. It is a multiply wound inductor. It has the bifilar wound and the pickup wound.

Depending on which wire is connected where, the volts and freq changes.
I believe this is the most efficient arrangement.

The resistor on the bjtc is 480ohms

Sorry for the ugly pic, I will do something about it, but not today. ;)

jeanna

nievesoliveras

  • elite_member
  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1996
Re: AC from Joule Thief Secondary/pick-up
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2009, 01:02:32 PM »
Lady

Here are 2 graphics that when viewed with the first one will maybe make your point clear.

Jesus

nievesoliveras

  • elite_member
  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1996
Re: AC from Joule Thief Secondary/pick-up
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2009, 03:04:01 PM »
Lady @jeanna

I am confused with your two tiers drawing.
Is it this what you mean?

Jesus

nueview

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 163
Re: AC from Joule Thief Secondary/pick-up
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2009, 07:32:26 PM »

I realy love what your doing noticed one main difference on the tesla picture ac is open spark gaps dc are all quenched spark gaps should make note of this as it tells something about the nature of electric fields.
Martin

jeanna

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3546
Re: AC from Joule Thief Secondary/pick-up
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2009, 09:27:38 PM »
@jesus,
You are awesome. Thanks for the help.
I am confused by the 2 tier also.

When I came to the 2 drawings I posted here, along with Tesla's descriptions,
 and realizing that the spark itself is not important in any way except to produce the switching ,
which collapses the field and makes the big bemf happen and frequently etc
I knew why I had been "shown" the 2 tier.
Remember, it was when it slipped from my fingers and landed exactly in one hole of the breadboard that all the lights got bright, that I saved the circuit.

I have been struggling to describe it ever since, but I think it is something like the 2 examples I have posted.

1- There is a regular joule thief with a basic joule thief light (bjtl)
2- There are 2 secondaries wound on the basic toroid
     2a- one of them lights up to 3 leds in series
     2b-one of them has many turns and feeds its AC volts into a breadboard, which I called the second tier.
3-There is a toroid on the second tier breadboard which is wound like a bjt with a secondary.It has a pirmary bifilar and a secondary of many turns. These are basically acting like inductors here.

This is because the current has a path through all the wires. There is no transformer effect happening in the second tier.

There can be. I have also been able to create a secondary transformer effect in addition to the basic light circuits I have shown here by winding more turns over the one already in use. (So, that would be 2 additional secondaries, one on the first tier with the basic joule thief and one on the second tier I just described.) But it is these induction circuits I want to look at. There is a current path that is different in each one of them.

There is something very interesting happening here, and I can only see some of it right now, and I know there is more, and hints to the "more" and how to achieve more separate powerful effects are given in the Tesla lectures. (I think, anyway.)

Right now, the total voltage is not as high as the single secondary wires.
But, sometimes the best way to find the missing piece in a jigsaw puzzle, is to move away and play with other parts of it.

thank you so much,

jeanna
-----
Hi Martin,
Thank you and welcome. I hope you are wanting to experiment with this.
I do not know what quenched spark gaps means, or its implications.

I am focusing on letting the joule thief transistor make the same effect as those sparks. In these examples Tesla says he was making use of the sparks only to create the pulses and he was  controlling the rate of pulsing, as he moved forward to his many conclusions using them for the switching device.

I am hoping many others who want to explore the ac effects made from this kind of thing will join in and experiment. And, if you would like to, please feel free to report your experiments with us.

BTW we are all different and all of us have slightly different goals and ways to approach these puzzles. I believe we all benefit when we share our ideas and experiments with each other.

thank you,

jeanna