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Author Topic: I think I've found Maxwell's Demon, however the demon is quite large...  (Read 27869 times)

Offline Nabo00o

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Re: I think I've found Maxwell's Demon, however the demon is quite large...
« Reply #45 on: August 04, 2010, 01:45:08 AM »
Thank you Broli.
But if it would work is another hard question.
Since the fluid is constantly moving I wonder if it could work like the original and stabilize.

This reminds me of those centrifuges they use to separate heavier particles from lighter ones, but can it separate temperature??? ........

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Offline broli

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Re: I think I've found Maxwell's Demon, however the demon is quite large...
« Reply #46 on: August 04, 2010, 01:53:02 AM »
We know it works on liquids by accelerating seperation between different densities, for instance a blood centrifuge or even an oil centrifuge which separates oil from water. So why would it break down for temperate.

The only reason I can think of for it to break down is if the motion gets violent for some reason and turbulence arises breaking the nice circular flow of the water. You can do that by throwing something in the water  :P . Other than that I see no reason why it wouldn't show whether the concept has merit or not.

Offline Nabo00o

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Re: I think I've found Maxwell's Demon, however the demon is quite large...
« Reply #47 on: August 21, 2010, 10:30:52 PM »
I agree that it could maybe work all though it might turn out that other fluids such as air would work better (which wouldn't necessarily be a problem....)

I could imagine using a Bedini trigger and a spinning neo-magnet, combined with another larger neo-magnet for levitation support would have very little friction, as it would not even touch the container...


The end goal should in any case be that this is as simple and practical as possible for the inventor to construct, and that is also one of the good things about Bedini circuits.

Julian

Offline Low-Q

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Re: I think I've found Maxwell's Demon, however the demon is quite large...
« Reply #48 on: August 02, 2011, 07:33:45 PM »
I know this is an old thread, but I want to put in some ideas. Gravity is affecting weight the same way as a centrifugal force do. If we have a wheel with many tubes (acting as spokes) which is filled with water. Let this wheel have a given radius. The severe pressure at the outer edge at high rpm will cause the temperature difference to be much grater, and the centrifugal forces could be 100 times the force of gravity. The inner part of the tubes would be boiling at 1 bar pressure, but the water at the outer edge would be very cold.

I have no clue about this, because I have never tried, but if it is true that water in an insulated tank will "automaticly" have hotter water on the top, something tells me that we can create a huge temperatur difference by applying next to no energy input at all. This difference can for sure be harnessed just by maintain the rpm of the wheel.

EDIT: I just measured the water density at boiling point and at 4 degrees celcius. The difference is 983g for one litre boiling hot water, and 1035g for 1 litre cold water. This is done with a 0.1g resolution kitchen scale. The difference is anyways about 5% density. This is much more that I had expected. Maybe I have to do more tests....or google it.

« Last Edit: August 02, 2011, 07:55:42 PM by Low-Q »

Offline Nabo00o

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Re: I think I've found Maxwell's Demon, however the demon is quite large...
« Reply #49 on: August 02, 2011, 09:59:05 PM »
Low-Q thank you so much for bringing this up again! After I read your reply I got interested and watched some of my first posts in this tread and one statement give me another idea:
Quote
I think the power capability of the entire system depends on how large the density change in a given fluid is in response to a temperature change. If it is minor I would assume that only a small temperature gradient would appear. But if the fluid has a very fast density response to a temperature change, and especially in the region of normal temperate air, then very sharp gradients could probably be created, which would allow larger temperature amplifications for each tank to be made.
Do you see what I am getting at?
What happens if water were heated above its boiling point, just before or under the process?
It would evaporate, its density would explode, and its temperature would drop immensely!

Phase change can possibly be a key to make this type of a machine terribly efficient, or in other words increase its power output many times. The only problem as always with water in in these type of machines is that they require a high temperature (and high energy) to change their fluid's phase, and likewise a large pressure change for the same result.

That is of course why all our fridges, freezers, air conditioners (and not least heat pumps) uses a refrigerant that changes its phase much closer to the ambient temperature!
I think I can recall that a mechanical motor operated by a small temperature difference used propane or possibly butane as its refrigerant, of course there is a huge risk of explosion with such gases, but most refrigerants are usually toxic anyway...


In addition, the very great pressure change which a refrigerant would experience being centrifuged could help the process very much, possibly making very high rpm unnecessary.
Also to revisit the original idea, an insulated tube filled with a low temperature refrigerant could aid the process, but it could potentially also do the opposite. I am concerned that an impregnable wall between the liquid and gas would appear. Even in a pure gas such walls tends to form, which mentioned earlier was called temperature inversion.

Interesting this line of thought  :)
Julian

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Re: I think I've found Maxwell's Demon, however the demon is quite large...
« Reply #49 on: August 02, 2011, 09:59:05 PM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: I think I've found Maxwell's Demon, however the demon is quite large...
« Reply #50 on: August 02, 2011, 11:26:02 PM »
Well, fluids with faster density response to temperatur change are often less densed and less capable of transferring energy.

Many thoughts goes through my mind these days. I have been thinking, if the process in a heat exchanger have a COP of 4-5 (500% energy out compared to input energy), should make it possible to boost the energy harvesting from the air. Think of heat engine which is directly and thermally connected to this process, the engine could have little more than 20% efficiency and be suficcient to run the pump.

The expansion nozzle is pure loss, so what we need to increase the efficiency of the heat exchanger even more, is to place a reversal pump that is run by the pressure made by the main pump. This reversed pump must deliver less volume pr. revolution than the pressure pump in order to maintan the pressure difference between cold and hot sides. With such a reversed pump (expansion pump) if you like) will reduce the input power by 20%, and therfor increase COP to 6 or 7. Then we can talk about an engine that runs on pure air temperature :)

Vidar.

Offline broli

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Re: I think I've found Maxwell's Demon, however the demon is quite large...
« Reply #51 on: August 05, 2011, 01:24:27 PM »
I was thinking about the rotational setup and a simple design for it which could be utilized as proof of concept. I attached such setup below. Basically it's made of brass or copper pipes and a T pipe fitting. The lower parts are insulated while the upper part is open. A contactless IR thermometer could be used to measure the temperature on the upper part, which should be the hot part.

But to be honest for reasonable dimensions (sub 1 meter diameter) you would need some high valued parameters. The rotational speed has to be at least 10000 RPM to see accelerations that are near 10-20 g's.

Hopefully such a setup would be conclusive and show a significant temperature increase if the theory of the concept is sound and perhaps lead to more ideas, designs and concepts to improve it and multiply the difference by stacking.

Edit: I was quite a bit off with the acceleration numbers. 10000 RPM can lead to  10000-20000 g's at a radius of 10-20 cm!.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: I think I've found Maxwell's Demon, however the demon is quite large...
« Reply #51 on: August 05, 2011, 01:24:27 PM »
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