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Author Topic: I think I've found Maxwell's Demon, however the demon is quite large...  (Read 26865 times)

Offline Nabo00o

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Right I'll just get to point: Maxwell's Demon is the earth, and its sensory and pass/blocking ability is its gravitation field.

It was not before recently that I came to this conclusion, although I realized the concept some time ago.
This has not been build yet so I do not yet have any practical proof here, however I want you to understand how this can work.

Okey, first lets say that you fill a normal stainless steel tank with water, the tank is uninsulated.
What ever the temperature in the water originally was, it will after some time absorb the temperature of the outside air completely, and so there will be an equal temperature everywhere inside the tank.

Now, what would happen if that tank was insulated instead?
Since the outside temperature would not be allowed inside it would just stay at the temperature it originally had when it was filled water, right?
Wrong. Since all the atoms inside the tank are in full chaos of movement and disorder (unless you had frozen the water to total zero) , there will be some microscopic misplacement of atoms all around inside, however at a macrocosmic view it will stay the same, presumably.....

But now the laws of buoyancy comes into play, because warm water weighs less that cold water, it will float up to the top while the cold waters will end up at the bottom. The total temperature of the water will stay the same, but there has been created a potential in temperature inside the tank from the bottom to the top.

Now you wouldn't maybe believe that there was much power in this at all, that the change in temperature is so minor that no machinery could possibly be powered by it?
At first this is quite true, however, the fact that the bottom will be colder than the original temperature will allow heat from its environment to be adsorbed, for example if a small heat absorber (a copper coil for instance) was connected to another coil outside.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2009, 05:03:50 PM by Nabo00o »

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Offline Nabo00o

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Now it can start to get interesting.
If the outside temperature was for example 20 degrees Celsius, the bottom of the tank would have that temperature as its minimum, while a higher temperature would appear at the top.
The opposite would have happened if you had placed the coil at the top, and connected it to the outside temperature. Then the maximum temperature would be the the same as outside, while a lower temperature would exist at the bottom.

This is also the way you can magnify this process to create even higher temperatures.

By connecting the top coil to the bottom of yet another tank, the maximum temperature at this tank would be the minimum temperature of the next tank, and this process could be used in several tanks by connecting them as described here until the water would boil, or if oil or any other fluid was used, until a desired temperature was reached.  Hot air does also have this tendency to float above the normal air or cold air, and people who live surrounded with mountains can also experience at times without much wind or sun that the temperature can get extremely cold, this is because the cold air "sinks" down in the container (the hole) and like a carpet of liquid maintains a freezing temperature until disturbed.

I am very interested in any kind of feedback (good or bad) you guys can give me or corrections to my assumptions. This is also very much like a heat pump, only that it uses no electricity.

Nabo00o

Offline Cap-Z-ro

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Actually nab, that general concept fits into what is rolling around in my head for some time now.

This principle is what I believe Daniel Pomerlou uses with his varying coil arrangement...through the use of the naturally occurring electrical current which the coils attract.

Regards...


Offline Nabo00o

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Actually nab, that general concept fits into what is rolling around in my head for some time now.

This principle is what I believe Daniel Pomerlou uses with his varying coil arrangement...through the use of the naturally occurring electrical current which the coils attract.

Regards...

What? Hmm i know about Pomerlou's work, its very interesting.

But this isn't about electricity at all. I was talking about heavy copper coils used to conducts heat, not electrons..... The coils is just there to make a lot of surface, it could by anything, like those heat sinks used in large amplifiers,  as long as it dont rusts  ;)

Offline Cap-Z-ro

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I realize that nab...I was speaking in terms of the flow of energy in general.

Keep in mind that Pomerlou is outside the box.

Regards...


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Offline Nabo00o

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Ah, I see what you are saying  :D

By connecting them in such and such a way, he could decide "and see" where the backround magnetic field would enter and maybe by feedback be amplified....

Offline Cap-Z-ro

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I'm not sure exactly what is going on...only that an amplification or an increase in energy is  involved.

Its still not clear to me yet...your thread just may be a bridge to a better understanding of what is going on here.

Regards...


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Offline Nabo00o

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Okey I attached a picture which should show the concept really clear, I hope it just shows up and doesn't stay hidden as a link.

The pipes between the tanks should be heat pipes, which are extremely efficient and fast at transporting heat, even at low temperature potentials.

Naboo
« Last Edit: June 11, 2009, 04:52:09 PM by Nabo00o »

Offline lumen

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I'm not sure how much energy could be converted using something like this, but I have seen this before except it was done a bit different. In a very old book I once read there was something called a heat amplifier and it was a large tank filled with water and a smaller tank inside it, with a smaller tank inside that and smaller inside that. Each one pulling the heat from the previous tank and getting hotter. Same principal but different concept.

Offline Nabo00o

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I think the power capability of the entire system depends on how large the density change in a given fluid is in response to a temperature change. If it is minor I would assume that only a small temperature gradient would appear. But if the fluid has a very fast density response to a temperature change, and especially in the region of normal temperate air, then very sharp gradients could probably be created, which would allow larger temperature amplifications for each tank to be made.

It may be that even common air has a much better density response than water (as most gases probably do), but it doesn't conduct heat nearly as good as a water.
So the ideal fluid for this system would probably be something which expands rapidly to heating, but is also at the same time good at conducting heat.

It might be that air, combined with heat sinks of large surfaces  would work better.
Also, it is probably not necessary to make the tanks have a large volume, the only thing that really affects the process is how high you make them, and how well shielded it is from the outside temperature.

Naboo
« Last Edit: June 12, 2009, 01:53:29 AM by Nabo00o »

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Offline broli

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It might be that air, combined with heat sinks of large surfaces  would work better.
Also, it is probably not necessary to make the tanks have a large volume, the only thing that really affects the process is how high you make them, and how well shielded it is from the outside temperature.

Naboo

Luckily high performance heat shielding are easily available, namely radiant barriers. Two layers of a radiant barrier and some additional black pvc sheet can give a near 100% shielding rate. This project is quite easy to build. But I still don't fully understand it.

Offline Nabo00o

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Thank you for your response Broli, but I think I should set a fine balance between economy and efficiency  ;D Of course it doesn't have to be that expensive, and also, the less surface to cover the cheaper.

The principal is based on something we find just as much in nature as in human-made environments.

Have you ever been in a lake and dipped your feet's in the water? Well then you may have noticed that the water gets colder the further down you get, in addition it is almost always occurring in really sharp layers of temperature, although it isn't completely necessary in this invention.
The same thing happens in valleys where there are no big openings and when there is no wind.
As a gas, air has a very low mass-density and is also easy to compress, both with temperature and with force. Since it is easily compressible, a small change in temperature will quickly change the density, and in a fluid, anything with a lower mass density will always float when affected by gravity.

This is what I use in the tanks, and by insulating them from the outside temperature, they can create their own "equilibrium" by allowing all that 'sinks to sink', and all that 'floats to float'. The result is that the total heat of the medium is split up into two potentials but without any input of energy, just like Maxwell postulated, and he couldn't be disproved either.


The next step is to allow the ambient temperature outside to be absorbed into the bottom, since it is hotter, it "wants" to travel there. When enough heat has been absorbed and the bottom temperature is the same as outside, then the top will be hotter because gravity will separate the potentials.

The last step is to make this higher temperature enter the cold part of the next tank. Since this fluid is much hotter than the bottom of the next tank, it will transfer its heat there if allowed ( a heat pipe will make this process very fast and efficient).

By connecting several tanks in this manner a stable equilibrium will eventually be reached where the bottom of the first tank will hold the outside temperature, while the top of the last tank will hold some kind of value higher than the beginning. What this value could be depends on a lot of variables, though it would be interesting to map the most important ones  :)

Naboo
« Last Edit: June 11, 2009, 10:03:19 PM by Nabo00o »

Offline broli

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Below are the ingredients:

1) large diameter pvc pipes + caps
2) heat exchanger coils
3) radiant barrier
4) plastic insulation
5) optional: black white plastic sheeting used in grow rooms.
6) lots of duct tape
7) a thermometer with a long probe that you can stick in the last tube

The expensive part will probably be the heat exchanger coils unless you can make them yourself from copper tubes. One roll of any insulation can insulate MANY tubes.


Offline Nabo00o

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Great set of pictures there, but you forgot the heat pipe, and I have a feeling that it will be the most expensive part.  Btw, the coils could be replaced by anything which conducts heat well, we got lots of metal scrap lying around here, some stainless too...

Also, in what kind of business do you think they sell large pvc pipes? Probably not in your local plumbing store  ;D Hmm.....

Offline broli

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120mm diamater and maybe 2m length for each pipe should be enough no?

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