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Author Topic: Latest: No back torque generator.  (Read 118057 times)

petersone

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Re: Latest: No back torque generator.
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2009, 02:04:56 PM »
Hi Low-Q
I think Broli had in mind,just for a simple test,to wire an led. into the coil and spin the lot to see what happens.Hope he do'snt mind me answering.
peter

exnihiloest

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Re: Latest: No back torque generator.
« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2009, 02:22:38 PM »
...
For initial tests a brush and collector are not needed. One could wire a small light bulb on the rotor along the conductor to observe current flow.
...

Why do you think that when the magnet and conductors are spun together, a current will result?

The current results only from the Lorentz force on the charges which is F=q*v|B where v is the speed of the charge relative to the observer. A bulb on the rotor having a null speed relative to the conductors, no current can be expected. It is the same thing as the Faraday disk: brushes at rest are needed for a current to flow in the circuit.


petersone

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Re: Latest: No back torque generator.
« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2009, 02:27:10 PM »
Hi Ex
I think you are right,but I hope you are wrong.
peter

broli

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Re: Latest: No back torque generator.
« Reply #18 on: May 07, 2009, 02:58:43 PM »
Here's something you can think of. When I stand on a rotating plate I feel a centrifugal force even though the plate is not moving for me...hmmmm.You don't have to be outside the system to see the force. Maybe that's something einstein brainwashed us with? Apply ampere's old force law and see what you get...

http://www.rwgrayprojects.com/Lynn/ampdip/eq01.gif

And yes eventually you'll need a brush and collector to get the current out.

TinselKoala

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Re: Latest: No back torque generator.
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2009, 03:08:46 PM »
TK that's the mistake people make. If the magnet is the conducting disk as well there is no way the force is caused by the current flow on the disk. Think about it this would violate newtons third law as the force and reaction force are glued together, so there can't be any net torque. The only thing that is causing a torque is the wire outside. There is not a single way you can approach the magnets that would not cause the torque. This is the law of electric currents.Trust me I know what I'm talking about.
I know you know what you're talking about, but I'm talking about actual experimental results, not necessarily their explanations. Are you familiar with Jeffrey Kooistra's work, that he did when he was Gene Mallove's technician/scientist, with Marinov and homopolar motors? He was able to show convincingly that there wasn't a back-reaction onto the brush leads in several configurations of Marinov and hp motors.
And there are multiple disk rotating homopolar generators that use only the axles for output current, and these axles are, well, axial to the magnetic field until well clear, so no relative rotation whether or not the field turns with the magnet.
I'm just sayin'...  :)
Have you read Tom Valone's Homopolar Handbook, which describes his own research and also collates a bunch of others? It's a fascinating read.
I agree with you about reaction. That's what makes it weird, or experimental error, or something. That's also why that Mylow fellow's motor can't be driven by the stators.

Paul-R

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Re: Latest: No back torque generator.
« Reply #20 on: May 07, 2009, 03:57:10 PM »
If the magnet is the conducting disk as well there is no way the force is caused by the current flow on the disk. Think about it this would violate newtons third law...
I shouldn't get too hung up about violating the Third Law. Its been done already with all those gyroscopes producing a reactionless force.
Paul.

Low-Q

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Re: Latest: No back torque generator.
« Reply #21 on: May 07, 2009, 08:19:29 PM »
Why do you think that when the magnet and conductors are spun together, a current will result?

The current results only from the Lorentz force on the charges which is F=q*v|B where v is the speed of the charge relative to the observer. A bulb on the rotor having a null speed relative to the conductors, no current can be expected. It is the same thing as the Faraday disk: brushes at rest are needed for a current to flow in the circuit.
This is also what I think. There must be a relative motion between the coil and the magnet. But I think it is right to build it with an LED to determine if it works or not - most people, me included, must learn that way.

If you some day want to collect that power outside the spinning system, you must use brushes and a fixed wire. Then it will collect current, but that current is made in the fixed and still wire outside which is "bombarded" with the rotating magnetic field... That is how I understand it anyway.

Time will show. But this far I have seen only 3D drawings and plenty of text that is some how convincing, but still are open to question.

Vidar

broli

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Re: Latest: No back torque generator.
« Reply #22 on: May 07, 2009, 08:21:38 PM »
This is also what I think. There must be a relative motion between the coil and the magnet. But I think it is right to build it with an LED to determine if it works or not - most people, me included, must learn that way.

If you some day want to collect that power outside the spinning system, you must use brushes and a fixed wire. Then it will collect current, but that current is made in the fixed and still wire outside which is "bombarded" with the rotating magnetic field... That is how I understand it anyway.

Time will show. But this far I have seen only 3D drawings and plenty of text that is some how convincing, but still are open to question.

Vidar

The collector wires are stuck together positive and negative so they are invisible to the chaotic field of the magnets.

lumen

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Re: Latest: No back torque generator.
« Reply #23 on: May 08, 2009, 01:55:41 AM »
Quote
You can make a homopolar generator with magnets the same size as the disk. Sandwich them all together so the magnets are attracting thru the disk.  Now spin the whole thing. You can draw a current from the axle and the disk edge (or even the magnet edge), and you can arrange your leads so that the only place a conductor cuts flux lines is in the radius of the disk connecting the axle and the edge contact. If the flux was spinning with the magnet, even this radius wouldn't be cutting flux and so shouldn't  generate a voltage.
The reverse situation with "simplest" homopolar motors also illustrates that the flux need not rotate with the magnet. You can even use the magnet itself as the disk, and only the current path within the magnet (or on its surface) is producing a ponderomotive force on the disk--the edge brush doesn't feel a push if you approach the disk from the right direction.
OR does it?

This depends where you believe the flux lines end. The center shaft causes no addition to the load because the flux lines move away from it while looping to the other side of the magnet but the outer contact is the problem because any direction cuts the lines of force.
I have done the tests with the magnet spinning with the disk or just the disk spinning and even a stationary magnet and disk with only spinning contacts!

There is no way to escape the rotating field and the current will be induced in the external circuit or whichever is moving in relation to the magnet.
You already know if you rotate a meter with a large disk, no current will show, that's because the current is induced in the external circuit.
I had only one idea on how to escape this problem and I have not tried it..... yet.


BEP

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Re: Latest: No back torque generator.
« Reply #24 on: May 08, 2009, 02:56:58 AM »

And there are multiple disk rotating homopolar generators that use only the axles for output current, and these axles are, well, axial to the magnetic field until well clear, so no relative rotation whether or not the field turns with the magnet.

The common conversations about these devices never seem to touch on the above fact. The wire loop standing on a battery then on a magnet is so easy.

Quote
 
I agree with you about reaction. That's what makes it weird, or experimental error, or something. That's also why that Mylow fellow's motor can't be driven by the stators.

Perhaps not directly.
I hope we aren't drinking from the same bottle. Sure sounds like it. Good thing it is only Snapple.


lumen

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Re: Latest: No back torque generator.
« Reply #25 on: May 08, 2009, 03:32:57 AM »
Using the axial connection was the next step but was a bit more involved and this is the test.

Using two large ring magnets placed face to face in attraction with one stationary on one rotating.
On the rotating magnet is the disk, and on the face of the stationary magnet are the brushes.

The connection to the brushes run close to the face of the stationary magnet to shield them from the field of the rotating magnet, then to a center connector and out through the center of the stationary magnet.

This will either continue to output a current as normal OR it will output virtually nothing because all the output comes from the rotating field crossing the brush leads like any conventional generator.




exnihiloest

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Re: Latest: No back torque generator.
« Reply #26 on: May 08, 2009, 12:54:37 PM »
This is also what I think. There must be a relative motion between the coil and the magnet....

It's not what I meant. There is no need of a relative motion between the coil and the magnet (in Faraday disk, it doesn't change anything the magnet to be rotating or at rest).
There is need of a circuit in two parts with a relative motion between them in order charges in one side see the others moving in the B field thus submitted to the Lorentz force.
In F=q*v|B, v is the speed of charge relative to the observer. It is not the speed of charge relative to the source of the B field.


scotty1

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Re: Latest: No back torque generator.
« Reply #27 on: May 08, 2009, 01:19:02 PM »
Hey Lumen.
Here is my clip to show the field does not rotate in the setup you describe...2 ring magnets in attraction..one spinning.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlUY3snoWI8

I don't think Broli's idea will make current if the wires spin with the magnet because the wires will not cut any flux.
In Broli's drawing the flux lines will be in motion with the magnet and so will the wires..so no current is made.
It can't be like a Homopolar, because the poles spin aound a secondary axis and not their own axis.
Only when the pole rotates on its own axis is there no rotation of the flux lines (see my clip)...then Broli's wires would cut the lines of force.

Of course I could be wrong.. ???
Scotty.

broli

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Re: Latest: No back torque generator.
« Reply #28 on: May 08, 2009, 01:25:35 PM »
Replace the magnets in my design with an elctro-magnet. Then calculate the Lorentz force or the ampere force and see what you get. Even if the conductor is rotating with the magnet that conductors secondaryvelocity due to the rotation will create a magnet field that will interact with the magnetic field of the magnets. This is not bound to obseravle law. It's like having two wires in parallel atrracting.

I ordered these magnets which arrived today:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250340185691

So now I'll have the painstacking fun of sticking them to each other to form a bigger rectanglular magnet.

petersone

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Re: Latest: No back torque generator.
« Reply #29 on: May 08, 2009, 01:31:14 PM »
It should'nt be long Broli,just like a detective story.
peter