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Title: LTspice IV Computes That Over Unity AC Circuit Works!
Post by: D.R.Jackson on April 27, 2009, 06:44:48 PM
The Sonic Resonator Circuit....

  Hello, this is D.R. Jackson and you can call me "Doc" if you want.  I am here with a few Spice simulation circuit diagrams for you to have to Run a simulation of the device I want to introduce you to.  The device demonstrates some principles and views contrieved into the circuit to make it accomplish something unique that in the software analysis some people would think impossible to plot in CAD electrical design and analysis softwares terms.  And that accomplishment is the all desired and sought after thing I know that you folk here at this forum refer to as over unity power output.  And so, the software all of its own without being told one thing about the circuit or its concepts, analyzes and concludes that it works.

  For about three years now we have had our concepts up on the Internet at our technologies group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sfggroup The group was discontinued but it is still up Online and the moderator may have it running again.  But if you join it he may get active with it again.

 You can download the files at this post which contains a graphic of the circuit as well as the spice circuit files to run.  I have come back today and updated the files for you so that you get all of the files you need to be innovative and understand the device.

http://www.overunity.com:80/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7366.0;attach=33307

  Please copy and keep this post to read offline as you study the files.

 About LTspice: If you do not have this software it is distributed for free to engineers and techs, as well as students and hobbyest by Linear Technologies at www.linear.com.  You can Google for it and read up on all of the use and forums devoted to the software.

  I do not want to make this starter post about this matter into a long discussion.  So I will try and keep it all as short as I can and come back and add things as we go along and I can have time to get away to the Internet and update things as we go.  Of course my time is a question and when I can I will get back here, but you will keep busy with these files I am giving you here and so stay busy a good long while.

  However the circuit and its principles are at this moment well developed and are ready for prototyping and actual on the bench study by you and myself.  By the world if you want too also, so I publish in this world forum.  And so, to give the circuit to you in this forum as a virtual model that actually operates in widely used Spice software is like giving the device to you able to operate, though its operation is a simulation.  But nonetheless you will have a model that runs and so, is like seeing, handling, and fealing as well as getting a look at all of its details and not as some sort of black box device that is all sealed up.  And you can calculate and analyze it as well as design another with another transistor model for higher power.  So you will know how its all done once you get to running the model and analyzing it.

  The circuit does not use some mysterious principle but some concepts and views that although newly developed over some past years here, work in the software.  The software is not told what to do with the circuit.  It just sees the circuit layout and then runs test on it and calculates how it operates and so, if it will do anything, the software then simulates what the circuit does from its point of view.  Which happens to agree with my concepts and principles I developed along for conceiving of the circuit.  I was surprise that this widely used software was able to come to the same conclusion of the circuit's operation as I conceived that it might be able to operate under.  And this software will immediately tell you if the circuit does nothing or if its operation breaks down into nothing.  Since in general design use it is pretty good at telling us when a circuit does not do much or nothing at all.

  Description of the operation of the circuit is as follows.  The transistor amplifier section is driven by a 1 kHz singal input power of 1V peak @ 18.3 mA = 18.3 milliwatt input to the base circuit.  Assuming in this circuit a lossless signal source which is provided by a test singal generator in the circuit diagram that runs in the software.  A real source will have certain device losses and a input matching network loss.  The maximum peak positive circuit current to the power supply filter during operation is around 34mA.  The output in this circuit is loaded with a reactance of -Xc = 0.1uF since at the output section the circuit wants to see a reactance.  I have a model that has a reactance in the form of a step down transformer that is rectified into +12V for use to power any 12V device that does not exceed the circuits power.  C3 then represents the reactive output load.  The voltage that the software computes to exist across our output load is +28V peak @ +/- 33mA (66mA peak to peak) the peak to peak power output is 1.815 watts (0.9075 watts peak).

  The power supply filter section according to LTspice IV's computations, sees a peak DC pulse current of 34mA @ 10V which equates to an input power of 0.34 watts (0.38 watts peak to peak).  Since there is a negative cycle pulse of equal amplitude.  And so lets add up the input power that the software demonstrates versus output power.

Input power = 0.036 w p~p (Ib(Q1)) + 0.38 w p~p = 0.416 watts p~p in

Output power = 1.815 watts p~p

Ratio over unity = 4.36298076923077:1

  (In the circuit files you will also find a 48 watt output version of this device you can run in simulation.  So keep in mind that this file is in the collection also.)

  Believe it or not thats the way the software computed it to be to my surprise.  And so, you can run the software analysis and test the circuit yourself ~ all you want; and come out with the same findings.  Its hard to believe that it all works that way and in one of the worlds most widely used engineering and design softwares too.
 
  Ok I won't try to be too long here with any descriptions and so, just allow you to run the circuit in Spice analysis software fashion to study the workings and operation of and let you check the performance your own way in your own time.

  One thing about software simulations where the software calculates the operation and feasiblity of a circuit.  Is that the virtualla parts list cost nothing to research.  Each person who explores these concepts can try out various transistor versions, as well as types such as FET types.  And can even use vacuum tubes as the amplifier section.  You can find a few vacuum tube spice models for use in LTspice by Googling for them, and so add them to you part library in the software's file section.

  Comments regarding this device should be left up to those who will download, run and analyze the circuits.  And so, be left up to expert technical reviews.  I would not say that comments made without first analyzing the circuits can be valid and hence would only be opinion.  We all need to hear from those who are able to evaluate the models and report back their findings and hence here from a jury of like peers.

  I am working now on a complete discussion text of the concepts and principles of the device.  I can not detail them all here since that would require up to 20 pages of text with many graphics.  And so, the best way to learn about the devices is to run it in the analysis software and analyze it and discover for yourself how it operates and see if you can crack the concepts behind it.

  I will keep you all posted from time to time as I can find time to get back here.

  For now let me say that there is nothing critical about operating the circuit.  But you can not alter it much, it has to stay basically as you see it.  The transformer is phased 180 degrees and you can not change that phasing.  Also, in a real model the coefficient of coupling requirement of the transformer is high.  So, the best transformer design I believe that can be used are the new toroid type power supply transformers used in new computer and stereo power supplies that are magnetically efficient.  So thats about it, nothing really magic to it, just these sorts of parts though a really good conventional type of transformer may work well enough.  Which means that in the current state of the art in maunfacturing we have the kinds of parts to manufacture this and so, there is no barrier to manufacturing that I can envision.  Since there is no unusual or yet to be dsigned part.  We have the kinds of part now that we need.  Being the circuit is based upon conventional parts ideas, though the inductance of the transformer is kind of high at 1 Henry per winding.

  And we can hope that some of these fellows or gals here at this forum with their unusual transformers that they have designed, might come up with one that is even more efficient or somehow might provide us with some kind of boost in power.  That would be even better.

  Oh one other thing that you fellow and gals experienced with LTspice software will like to know is that there are no Spice directive instructions written into the spice circuit files to tell the software how to analyze or treat the circuit.  So there are no special theoretical instructions to alter the way the software analyzes and figures out the circuit.  You can open the file up in a note pad or word document and read its net list and see no instructions.  The software basically just analyzes the circuit using its own original instructions and solutions and comes up with its own conclusions.  And so we do not tell it anything about the circuit nor do we tell it what to do with the circuit it just analyzes ot all the same as it would any circuit.

  I do not know if anyone has ever uploaded on the Internet any circuit file that can be run to demonstrate over unity in operation.  If not well we can not say that anymore.  So this I suppose makes it all a different ball game now.  And so, I am pretty sure that you who know how to operate Spice softwares, especially LTspice will be pretty happy with the circuits.

D.R. "Doc" Jackson

Tip! ...if you decrease L2 to 0.5 H then the current through Dx will increase and increase the power output, but not change the power supply input power.
 
Title: Re: LTspice IV Computes That Over Unity AC Circuit Works!
Post by: D.R.Jackson on April 28, 2009, 07:37:36 PM
To summarize my models, I have a model of that same circuit that I made a tap change on the secondary to increase the current of Dx by 3 times, without changing the power supply current.  So now the output is even higher.  Which is interesting as compared to the first model.  But tthese two strange models are nothing compared to what happens when I place a higher powered transistor (2N3055) into this circuit.

In the 2N3055 model the power supply current at 10V is still 60mA peak to peak.  And so, is the same as the low powered model.

The rectified current through Dx from L2 is 885mA.

The current in C3 is 1.8A peak to peak @ 25.3V (pulsed DC peaks).

If LTspice is only half right about the output of this circuit, I think I would accept that and go with it.

One thing about this circuit is that it appears that I am reaching the limit at which it can draw current through L2 by the power ~ supplied by V1 of 10V or our circuit working volts.  Since any adjustment to the inductance of L2 in terms of taps, does not effect I(L2).  However when you crank up the power supply voltage you can then crank up the current.

When V1 is 24V DC, then V(C3) = 60V and I(C3) = 2.72A p~p

This model is extreme over unity according to the software analysis.

In this model the ratio of onput power from the power supply and the 1 kHz signal input, to the output is way too higher to ignore.  Providing that LTspice is interpreting the circuit correctly.

I was thinking of ways to test these ideas on the test bench knowing that its kind of hard to find a transformer with 1 Henry windings.  So I thought that perhaps an alternative would be something like a 120V to 120V test bench isolation transformer, and one with an adjustable secondary sounds even better.  And since the low powered model allow for changing secondary taps, I thought that maybe some power supply transformers with a secondary for 60V to 70V AC might work.  Which is not impossible to find.

And we have vacuum tube plate transformers for home stereo than you can order.  With certain winding impedances a 1 kHz which tells you something about what the inductance of the windings might be.  So they seem like good choices.  Some ham radio operators in the group might have a junk box of old plate modulation transformers.  And so, might try something.

In conclusion, those of this forum with the interest and the electrical skills as well as some prior knowledge of LTspice and being skilled with its use.  May run the circuits, analyze their workings as well as peculair quirks.  And help to develope a base of information from numerous studies.  The LTspice files then are our quide and helps and the make it possible to investigate the device without having to buy allot of research parts.  And once we have things pretty well defined we can make a few test bench models.  So, I hope you will be inspired to innovate.
Title: Re: LTspice IV Computes That Over Unity AC Circuit Works!
Post by: vasik041 on April 28, 2009, 09:21:21 PM
Hi Doc,

Have you checked power in LTSpice ?

Thanks,
-V.
Title: Re: LTspice IV Computes That Over Unity AC Circuit Works!
Post by: D.R.Jackson on April 28, 2009, 11:59:00 PM
vasik041

  Glad to see you got LTspice...

  I was looking at the output computed by LTspice and it looks to me to be more of what I would calculate for the RMS power.  Using the manual method.

  If you want to see a great increase of power over input power.  (~See the circuit diagram beneath this here reply) Run the 2N3055 model in the extra models folder.  Also, in that model run the power supply in one simulation at 24 volts and then compute the power.  I hope that will look pretty good to you.  And interest you. (Check out its LTspice watts plot graphic below this reply also!)

  To encourage you and others I have done a similar plot in LTspice such as you have done of the inputs versus output power of the 2N3055 model and have it for you to see below this reply.  I tend to be guilty of adding my voltages and currents up in a visual manner from the waveform plots and so measure things in peak to peak terms.  But from now on I will use your method and let LTspice express its math and science in the matter.

  I will try the spice directive you used in all my models and see how that all computes.

 *The standard model is used to show mainly how I can balance the currents in L1 and L2 as well as C3 based on the same current levels.  And so, the power input to output is compeditive in this model.  Its more or less what I intend as a concepts and principles model in my text I am working on.

  In the 2N3055 model you have the same peak to peak current in V1 as in the standard model but I(L2) is up at 885mA (see) and check the input power on the Q1 base which is higher with this transistor.  Then crank up the voltage of V1 as I mentioned to 24V and then compute that.  I think that you will see that the 885mA current in Dx makes this model a different ball game.

  And the equation will change even more when I give you a model of one of these circuits powering another so that the power from the second comes only from the first one and not a power supply.  So ponder that equation too.

  So try the 2N3055 model!

Dan

Thank You and I am glad you are running LTspice! ;D

Dan
Title: Re: LTspice IV Computes That Over Unity AC Circuit Works!
Post by: D.R.Jackson on April 29, 2009, 12:27:49 AM
"Everything You Need To Know About These Over Unity Spice Simulations"

I will offer you a description of the circuits here in this post that you can download in LTspice circuit simulations files: so that you can decide if you are curious and wish to inquire further into these matters?  And so, I offer up a public description which we will Archive here in this Public Domain forum for the world to ponder and use.  And to document the concepts and principles by the father of the invention himself. ~ 04/28/09

This discussion will use the Standard Model in the above graphic for our discussion, and then we will mention the Virtual Power Supply Concept and then the higher powered model.

The circuit looks allot like a audio amplifier since it is after all a AC circuit.  It is driven by a 1 kHz input signal.  And the unique thing about the device is that it uses the transformer to 180 degree phase the induced current so that a separate branch current for the transistor exist that rectifies and pulls the current through the collector in a branch that is away from the power supply.  In this branch the rectified current through the diode, makes the DC current of the rectified half cycle move in the direction of the diode.  And so, the transistor current sees what appears to be another power supply via the the induced force of L2 and the rectification of the current by the diode at the end of L2.  Since the current through L2 that is rectified by Dx is in the in forward direction.  Which draw this branch current up from the ground, through the emitter and collector on up into L2 and through Dx back to ground to recirculate around again and again.  And have to be circulated around by the power supply.

So this extra induced current does not have to be carried by the power supply.  And the electromotive force for moving this extra current is induced in L2 by L1.  Thanks to our 1 kHz drive on the base input of Q1.

Now the added benefit of the transformer is that in addition to an extra powering current added to the transistor, is that the transformer coil winding induces a transistor collector voltage on the transistor of +27.5V and so, the voltage now is way higher than the +10V power supply voltage.

The transistor (Q1) collector current is now = to I(L1)+I(Dx)+I(C3) so you can see that we can analyze and quantify the currents and voltages and so, are not dealing with some exotic and unquantifiable energy that never can be computed.  All of this is computable.

  The transistor powering current is now doubled by the secondary winding and the voltage is stepped up.  And so, adding in the load current to the collector current I(C3).  The final collector current is now three times what the power supply delivers, and the voltage is nearly 3 times that of the power supply.  The output load C3 now has 1/3rd the transistor current which is equal to the power supply current at +27.5V rather than the +10V of the power supply.

Once you get a look at it all, its easily understood.  And reduces down to simple views.

  In this low powered model I deliberately set the currents of L2 and C3 to match that of the input current from V1 to demonstrate something in another LTspice simulation model.  By tapping L2 at 0.5H we can increase the current of this branch of the circuit through Dx by a little over three times and the current of the power supply I(V1) does not change in the simulation since I have better matched the loading of L2.  And so, when this is done the over unity computation of the circuit is even greater.

  And so the description of its operation is pretty easy to explain and follow, if you will analyze it in LTspice.

The Virtual Power supply Concept:

  Further comments about T1 and its secondary winding L2 are as follows. 

  What the transistor current sees through L2 is a rectified DC current direction up through L2 to Dx.  And so, the conceptual definition of Dx is that the forward moving force of L2 to pull current forwards to Dx and rectify it into DC, makes Dx appear to be a positive power supply terminal with respect to Q1, to attract forward current from the transistor.  And, appears to Q1 to be another power supply branch.  And so, provides for another power supply branch of current; so that this current can be added back into the summed power equation of the transistor currents.

  If we were relying on a single choke coil for L1 and did not have L2.  Then we would have an induced voltage to use on the collector of Q1.  However, L1 radiates electromagnetic energy and so, this radiated energy would not be used for anything.  And would not be efficient in that we are not make the most of the available energy and conserving it.  By adding L2 as a secondary winding to make a transformer out of our choke L1.  We now have a means to capture the radiated electromagnetic energy and use it to do some work for us.  And so, conserve our available energy.  Where L1 alone would merely mean that we are not using all of the energy that the circuit has available.  So T1 is that means to make use of the magnetic energy of L1 which can induce another current into the circuit by L2.

  In summary of the previous view we have to find a way to added that energy back into the circuit in a way that adds up in a positive way.  So we have to phase it for the right moment to conduct in the right direction, and rectify it into DC current that can be used to up the sum of the input power into the transistor.  Though the sum of this input power is induced into the circuit by the transistor itself via the 1 kHz drive input.

  Always remember that the conceptual definition of L2 and its rectifier Dx is that with respect to the collector current I(Q1) this appears to be another positive power supply terminal.  And so, is a virtual power supply built into the circuit that makes use of energy captured from and out of the 1 Henry collector choke L1 ~ that would ordinarily be lost to radiation if L1 were a mere choke and not a transformer.

The High Powered Model

  The high powered model in the above graphic that uses the 2N3055 transistor.  Is unique in that the same power supply current that is drawn by the Standard Model that uses the 2N5550 transistor is the same in this model.  The only difference is that the 1 kHz drive signal power input to this transistor is higher.  The current through Dx in this model is 885mA.  The induced voltage on the collector and across C3 is 25.3V.  the current induced into Ce by both the transistor and the un rectified half cycle of L2 is 1.78A peak to peak.  And so, LTspice calculates that in this model the ratio of over unity is greater than the previous models.  and so, you can do the math here and add up the power output of this later model.

  As mentioned in the previous post here I made.  In this model we are maxing out our force in L1 and L2 with the currents we are running and the different loading that the 2N3055 transistor offers as compared to the lower powered model.  And so, the idea of changing the L2 tap point to anything less than 1 Henry in this model will not work to produce a further current increase in Dx and Q1.  So we are maxed out in this model.

  However to get further power increases all we have to do is increase the power supply voltage to 12 or 24 volts.  Which will give us allot of power output.  However if we move the voltage up to around 50 volts the induced voltages of L1 and L2 etc, will cause the performance of the circuit to break down.  So, we need to keep the power supply voltage within a certain maximum level.  24 volts is fine as a power supply input to this circuit.

  If anyone of you at any time become concerned for the base to emitter current rating of a transistor used in the models.  And find that from the transistor data sheets that the base current is near to or being exceeded.  The thing to do then is to use Motorola RF power transistors in the same power output range as the transistor you modeled, since the RF transistor is made to handle more base to emitter dissipation than other kinds of transistors.  Also, the use of higher powered FET transistors will enable you to reduce the 1 kHz input power since they have gate input impedances and resistance that are high and so similar to vacuum tubes.  Which is a way to reduce the 1 kHz driver power input.

  In closing for now, it appears that from my analysis of both L1 and L2 in terms of current.  We do not need allot of current in either L1 or L2 according to the high powered model.  So long as we have current in L2 comparable to that of L1 or higher, and a little higher seems to be better.  We can have an over unity energy equation in the circuit.  And true all of the impedance calculations and plotting of performance with different transistor types and currents, etc, as well as maybe different input signal frequencies are yet to be studied by who knows how many of us.

  One thing I will tell you not to attempt to do is to make the circuit resonate strictly at 1 kHz.  This circuit generates allot of harmonics naturally.  In fact a FFT analysis reveals it is rich in harmonic energy and this is the way it naturally runs.  If you try to filter all of the byproducts out of the circuit and try to tune it all strictly to 1 kHz.  Then you are not conserving all of the available energy types that this circuit generates.  And so, would only be filtering out the energy that naturally resonates through the circuit in terms of all the various frequency energy that is generated.  So, leave well enough alone.  Do not filter out and hence destroy all of the energy.  After the output signal is stepped down in a step down transformer (as I am doing in a Spice model I have here ~ I will upload when I can) and then the stepped down voltage is rectified.  Then we can slap a power supply filter capacitor on the DC output and then use the voltage and current.

  Further explanations of the performance of these devices are forth coming in the future.  And at the moment would take up a few pages of text and so are better left for compiling into a PDF document that we will upload in the future here in these post for you to use.

  I hope all who run and analyze these circuits will enjoy them and be inspired and will think of ways that we all can work together in the future.  So I give everyone a working model though its a virtual circuit model.  And I hope that all runs well!


Title: Re: LTspice IV Computes That Over Unity AC Circuit Works!
Post by: TinselKoala on April 29, 2009, 12:56:05 AM
Just to be clear: Vasik ran the circuit you specified, in the simulator you specified, and used that simulator's math functions to calculate the energy in and out over a short time period of 11 milliseconds. Putting in the zeros, I see input energy during that time to be 0.000078205 Joules. And the output energy during that time is 0.00000051761 Joules.
Try as I might, I cannot come up with an OVERUNITY ratio of 4.36298076923077 to one, from those energy values.

(And didn't you ever hear about Significant Digits? That is, you can't have more in your answer than you have in your least precise input data. So even if that number isn't wrong, it still isn't right.)
Title: Re: LTspice IV Computes That Over Unity AC Circuit Works!
Post by: D.R.Jackson on April 29, 2009, 03:16:08 AM
As I mentioned to vasik041 in my reply to them, I was guilty of measuring the peak to peak current of the circuits manually with the eye and mouse cursor.  And then using a calculator.  So I was using the method you would use with an oscilloscope.

I am not sure how LTspice is computing the power as peak to peak which it seems to be doing or as average?

However as I mentioned to vasik041, I plan to do as they do and express the input power versus output power of the device with LTspice doing it all from now on.

If you will look at the plot above for the 2N3055 model that vasik041 should have a copy of in their files, you will see that LTspice computes that this model has both transistor base and power supply input power in and around the arena 1 watt or so each as best as we can see that plot graphic.  Yet LTspice computes that the output power is near to 16 watts.  So thats the important issue at the moment.  And you have the plot above and anyone who has my files can run that model of which there is a circuit diagram of here on this page.

So yes I am guilty of using the eye and the cursor to measure the wave form peaks.

However we still have some over unity expressions that we can not account for except in the concepts and principles of the design.  So all is encouraging as hell I think!  Just look at the LTspice wattage plots I am adding to the post to follow this one and so, let the software express what it has plotted in terms of input versus output in my better models.  Its hard to explain other than by the concepts that went into the circuit.  Which is the only way to explain and the software agrees.

Also, as I mentioned in the first threads in this post.  In my tip at the bottom of that post.  If anyone changes L2 in the standard model then the Dx current is increased and the power output is increased in teh model that vasik041 ran.

You can see the LTspice wattage plot for that model below. In the next post.

Ok ~ true its hard to accurately judge with the eye the amplitude average of various wave shapes over the wave cycles of a plot and come up with a true expression of the peak to peak.  But the math of the software is way better at it than we are.  And so, I won't be using the eye anymore but allow the software to express the wattage.  Which is a good idea and mandatory as I realize.
Title: Re: LTspice IV Computes That Over Unity AC Circuit Works!
Post by: D.R.Jackson on April 29, 2009, 03:22:47 AM
In the first post here on this page, at the bottom of the page I mention that if you change to value of L2 to 0.5H (0.5 Henry) and run that, you will have an increased current in Dx.  And so the power output will be increased in the low powered Standard Model.  The LTspice plot of those functions of that model is below.

You will notice that the output power is near to 800mW, and the V1 input power is near to 400mW and the Q1 base input signal power is the small amplitude red wave form.  So figure that up?

Basically this low powered model is on in which one can experiement with to study the effects of the various circuit currents, and play with balancing them all or increasing L2 as I have.  I should be more clear in what my models were intended for in the future.  But you can get all excited once you see it all work and just have to make some comments to people to share it all.  So we will try to be more concise.

Study the power plot then of the standard model that I have modified below and you will see that the output power of this low powered model is nearly twice the input power.  And thats what LTspice has plotted.  So we have to pay attention to the softwares computations.  And these are not my eye and hand computations but those of the software.  So these are to be better trusted.
Title: Re: LTspice IV Computes That Over Unity AC Circuit Works!
Post by: D.R.Jackson on April 29, 2009, 07:31:22 AM
16 watt model download

16_watt_model.asc LTspice circuit simulation file.

Remember that this is AC power with positive and negative power peaks.  The power factor of which is who knows at the moment.

  So that we do not have any confusion about the best and better developed models to run in simulation.  I have updated some files for you to download and concentrate on the performance of.

  Below is an expanded view of the power output for your interpretation.







Title: Re: LTspice IV Computes That Over Unity AC Circuit Works!
Post by: samedsoft on April 29, 2009, 08:27:03 AM
DR

  Can you make a switch to tun it on after starting up and charging a cap and prove self running system on LTSpice?

  Nuri
Title: Re: LTspice IV Computes That Over Unity AC Circuit Works!
Post by: D.R.Jackson on April 29, 2009, 09:02:09 AM
DR

  Can you make a switch to tun it on after starting up and charging a cap and prove self running system on LTSpice?

  Nuri

Thats an interesting test to contrieve in software.  My current idea is to try and use a low power model to power a high powered model.  And I am thinking of that as an LTspice file. 

I do not think that I can make a switch in the software that can switch on in the circuit simulation so many seconds later.  It would have to be told to kick on after the circuit simulation has charged up.  So that would be hard for me to model.  There might be a spice model for such a switch some place.  You never now what models you can Google and find.
Title: Re: LTspice IV Computes That Over Unity AC Circuit Works!
Post by: D.R.Jackson on April 29, 2009, 09:04:43 AM
I want to conduct an experiment to see how much positive power we have from this apparently 16 watt circuit?  If it is near to 16 watts with a resistor to visualize the peak power.  And so, to do that I want to replace the reactive load of C3 (-Xc) with a resistor calculated to properly load the circuit for 16 watts.

Well first of all, when I measured the wattage from peak to peak very carefully to 2 digits past the decimal, the sum that I obtained from the model was 17  rathr than 16W.  So I am using that figure here.

Where
Vc = 45 V
P C3 = 17W peak

17W / 45V = 0.377777777777778 Amps

45V / 0.377777777777778 Amps = 119.117647058823 ohms

So I have replaced C3 with a 119 ohm resistor (R1) and run the wattage plot across this resistor.  And compared it to the input wattage of V1.  And that plot is below with a circuit diagram of the experiment.

You will notice that in this circuit the wattage across R1 appears to be 18 watts rather than 17 watts.  Anyways we are close to properly loading the circuit.  And notice that the power of R1 is all positive.  The power across the former C3 load capacitor was reactive and centered upon the zero axis.  Here the power is all above the axis and looks well in amplitude. 

Also notice how low in amplitude that the input power of V1 is?

I would say that in my visual estimation of this circuit being a 16 watt circuit from the original plot a few post above.  That to say this is a 16 watt circuit is about correct.  I will let you be the judge of wave forms.  However this is not 60 Hz but 1 kHz and the current alternates real fast and so, when rectified and filtered the power should be able to easily run to the peak of this circuit.  The angular velocity energy of 1 kHz is way higher than that of 60 Hz ~ but I am certain that some techs and engineers will never understand what I mean by that comment.  The angular velocity energy I mean.  It is higher than 60 Hz.  When this is filtered after rectification it will do good at this frequency.  Really fast delivery of charge to our power supply filter is what I mean.

I have read the comments of some of the folk over at the Yahoo LTspice group about my circuits and their views.  Mostly those who have not even opened up the circuits and run them, but comment merely by opinion.  Of course I am sure that they can not explain this here one circuit.  And so, I challenged them with all of their knowledge and know how to analyze and explain it, or declare that LTspice is in error.   Of course there are some really good folk at that group and some are helpful and so, it takes all kinds for sure.  And thats going to happen here at this post too.  But I have been around the block and know how that all goes.

Ok, I will catch you all around here as results dictate and time allows.  And I will be sure to update things here as I can.  And so, experiment with these things.
Title: Re: LTspice IV Computes That Over Unity AC Circuit Works!
Post by: D.R.Jackson on April 29, 2009, 11:46:17 AM

The previous switch and capacitor comment to power off of, reminded me of my strangest and possibly most over unity model of my circuits I have thats hidden in the files of the first download at the top of page 1 (and now at the end of this post).

In that circuit I focused on the fact of the alternating peak to peak current that L1 induces into the power supply.  Normaly you do not have AC current going to a DC power supply but the force of L1 creates that condition and induces it nonetheless.

And so, I reasoned that the positive peak being +33mA and the negative peak being -33mA (in the orignal model), could allow one half cycle alteration to replace back the current that is taken.  But how can I do that?  Where do I place it and take it from with respect to the power supply?

I decided that if I can move the place the current alternates to and from, to someplace external to the power supply.  And still have the 10 volt power supply voltage there.  It might work.  And so my idea was a capacitor.

What I did in the model was design a very heavy low pass filter with two 10000uF caps and a 0.01 Henry choke into a Pi network filter.

What this does, is that upon initial charge up of the circuit these two large capacitors take on allot of heavy initial electron current flow to charge up.  And way more charge than the moving L1 current.  Then once they charge up and cease to pull anymore current, the circuit normalizes. And so, the last capacitor out from the power supply on the the far side of the 0.01 H choke becomes the place that the alternating charge of L1 is deposited on.  And then a current of around 8mA peak to peak leaks through to the power supply.  So the power supply input now has dropped way down around 8mA peak to peak in that range (around 80mW input).  While the 60mA peak to peak charge for our circuit now circulates from the 10000uF cap at 10V.  LTspice reveals that the charge is taken only from this capacitor on one half cycle and then replaced back on the other and so, the charge is replenished via cycle alterations back and forth.  And the efficiency of the over unity expression of this model as computed by LTspice after all is charged up and normalized.  Is great.

It seemed to make sense to me, so I modeled it and the software shows me that it agrees with my assumption.  Just like it does with all of my model assumptions.  Which to say the least boogles me.  But its all fun to work with and ponder.

So as far as my working Spice models go, you ain't seen nothing yet.  I know what I have designed and am going to pull out for you all to simulate.  So, it all just gets stranger and stranger as we go.  You'll see.

Well let me just add the file to download in this reply here immediately below and allow some people to ponder that simulation in software.

This is the low powered 2N5550 transistor model.  L2 in this model is 0.5H.

LTspice plots V1 power in to be, after charge up is ceased:

(+)4.5mW + (-)74.09mW

versus C3 power output

(+)744.7mW + (-)709.26mW (with some peaks varying)
Title: Re: LTspice IV Computes That Over Unity AC Circuit Works!
Post by: hoptoad on April 29, 2009, 02:29:20 PM
@ D. R. Jackson, I have a simple question.

In your circuit shown above, can I assume that the emitter of Q1, and one leg of the input signal leads are connected directly to a common negative?

This is an important aspect of the circuit to me that needs clarifying before I can offer any pertinent comments on the circuit operation.
I grew up in the analogue era, and designed many audio (sine wave) amplifiers in my youth.

Cheers
Title: Re: LTspice IV Computes That Over Unity AC Circuit Works!
Post by: Paul-R on April 29, 2009, 04:06:01 PM
When using simulation software, it is essential to bear in mind the rules that govern
the programming of the package. Generally speaking, these rules will be those of
conventional physics.

Much of what is being worked on here uses concepts beyond conventional physics; not
necessarily always breaking these rules, but going beyond them. The software may not
be able to handle this.

(For instance, several workers are working on negative resistors and getting results.
What happens if they are placed in this software?)
Title: Re: LTspice IV Computes That Over Unity AC Circuit Works!
Post by: vasik041 on April 30, 2009, 05:36:02 PM
I would like copy/paste here fragment of the post from LTspice group by John Popelish
(http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/LTspice/message/28962)

-- snip --

Your screen capture shows a great many operation cycles of a
system that stores energy in an inductance over some period
of time, and then releases that energy over a much shorter
period of time. So, low power going in for longer time,
higher power coming out for a shorter period of time. But
the average power going in is still less than or equal to
the average power coming out over a whole cycle of this
process. Energy storage elements like capacitors and
inductors allow for circuits that charge these devices
slowly (low peak power) but dump them quickly (high peak
power) but the average power charging is always equal to or
lower than the average discharge power. Conservation of
energy requires this and LTspice models energy conserving
inductors and capacitors, as their mathematical definitions
require.

-- snip --
Title: Re: LTspice IV Computes That Over Unity AC Circuit Works!
Post by: D.R.Jackson on May 03, 2009, 05:45:40 AM
@ D. R. Jackson, I have a simple question.

In your circuit shown above, can I assume that the emitter of Q1, and one leg of the input signal leads are connected directly to a common negative?

This is an important aspect of the circuit to me that needs clarifying before I can offer any pertinent comments on the circuit operation.
I grew up in the analogue era, and designed many audio (sine wave) amplifiers in my youth.

Cheers

Yea that is a common ground, the softwares uses a arrow icon for the common ground and thats the only ground symbol they have.  But you can draw a conduct for ground like I do when I hand draw a diagram.

I had a break through I will post in a reply to another post below.

Title: Re: LTspice IV Computes That Over Unity AC Circuit Works!
Post by: D.R.Jackson on May 03, 2009, 05:50:08 AM
I would like copy/paste here fragment of the post from LTspice group by John Popelish
(http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/LTspice/message/28962)

-- snip --

~ input versus output power wave cycle period ~


...I had a break through.. you can download it below.

Well those comments challenged me and set me on some research and a whole lot of circuit models and analysis as quick as I could to answer you with what I found out.

First of all the comments made me examine the circuits from every possible angle.  And I had to filter out the periodic energy of L1 from reflecting an AC current into the power supply V1.  And so, obtaining more of a DC power in V1 like it should be, I could study the effects of the circuits power and losses.  As well as work on keeping the output power wavecycles working on the fundamental drive frequency input into Q1.   So that there is no periodic change of the wavecycles.

The model in this reply that you can download below is going to blow your mind....  Like I said a few post back ~ it gets stranger as we go.

My Original Concept

In the circuit diagram below this reply you will see that I have heavily filtered out all periodic energy from the power supply V1 so that the perodic energy of the rest of the circuit, in the equation of things will not effect the energy of the power supply.  Though a small wave cycle energy still exist due to the capacitor and the coils of the filter.

  Given that I could make a circuit that was well energy balanced, and was able to replentish a few of its losses.  I would attempt to allow the circuit to replentish some of its current it draws through L1 back onto a capacitor where it would take off current on the negative half cycle and replace it on the positive.  And I would use a capacitor voltage divider for the voltage I need.  And so I would attempt to not allow this current to flow through the power supply.

In the model I uploaded in this post. I have done that.  I do need a small amount of DC collector Current in the uA range for the intial start up solution for Q1 so I have two resistors across the capacitors of the capacitor voltage divider.  And these restrict the DC current I need down to that for Q1 when it is in the cutoff cycle and just begins to conduct.

I was not sure I could ever get a model of this concept to work in LTspice.  But given the balance of the circuit and its concepts.  I was hoping that the concept of resonant energy would help along with the concept of replentishing a seperate current into the circuit in the virtual power supply feature of Dx.  And Dx only has to add a little collector current into the initial operating solution and it is 180 degree phased from I(L2).

Well the circuit fired up in LTspice and ran. 

You can download and run it and check the input power of V1 with the output power across C6 in this model.  Check you nodes so you know which ones to enter in, for you wattage plots.

My theory is this, all we need is a voltage potential at input and this can come from a mere capacitor voltage divider.  Though LTspice reveals that we do need a little DC current for our Class C no signal cutoff condition.

If we can induce a current in the circuit with the voltage across the capacitive voltage divider then we might be able to recirculate it around and around in the circuit.

The circuit appears to break down in analysis when I try to add loads to the circuit to take of the power.  My original theory says that the power is now a recirculation of current around in the circuit just like in a DC of AC generator that recirculates the same electrons around in its closed system of the generator windings and the load.

SO now in my theory the circuit should be my generator.  And no current should be flowing in V1 except the small collector current we need at a certain point in the phase cycle.

LTspice thens to still want to take the wattage away from the power supply in the analysis of adding a load.  Of course the load has to be placed in the ideal place of the system to balance the equations.  The load should only upset the balance of the circuit.  And no current or power should be required from the power supply in this circuit except that small amount previously mentioned.

So either I can not find the proper place to load the circuit to extract some power, or else LTspice breaks down in analysis beyond this point.

Anyways, this circuit here was the original idea and the whole matter of investigation by me to see if I can make the concept run is software.

If this can lead to something in the future, it will take many minds looking over it and analyzing it all.

Technically, following conventional views and thinking this circuit should not work at all.

But LTspice seems to support my field force theory of which the capacitor voltage divider was the original concept objective.

I am sure that the folk at the LTspice group now will not be able to understand this circuit in a long time to come.

Run it for as many seconds as you want.  And according to conventional theory there should not be any circulating power of any kind in this circuit and certainally at the levels that LTspice computes. 

If you have trouble seeing in the graphic below the thin line of the plotted power supply input power of this model.  Being its not a real good graphics card I have, just run the Spice file download below and see for yourself. (V(n001)*I(V1)

So, here is an anomoly.

Like I said earlier in these post, it get stranger and stranger as we go along here.

This one model here is one I am sure many people around the world will ponder for a long time to come and can not be explained.  I can however explain it in my original theories.  And I just had to see if I could model my theories.  I did not think that this original idea would work in the end after I tweaked up the models to run good with a conventional power supply. But I did save the best for last.

And we need many more minds here, and so, my models from this point are open source and please enjoy them.

Please note that you can change the two capacitors of the voltage divider to as low as 10000uF each and not have to modelt the circuit with two 1F caps.  The small AC current in V1 will be of shorter wavecycles but of about the same level.

I sure hope that there is someone in this world who can find a solution for taking off the power of this circuit!  So good luck.  How do we load it?  We need an engineer with some advanced math analysis to do this.

D.J.

(The capacitor voltage divider supplies +50V, and the two divider resistors are for a little collector current.  L2 and DX provide more DC collector current by the self induction of the circuit.  The power across C5 and C6 are extraordinary when you analyze this circuit that is not even suppose to work in conventional views.)

You want to plot:

V(n001)*I(V1)

V(Vc)*I(C6)

It will be hard to explain this model, and how it is designed to work.  But all we need is the field force of 50V and the circuit is designed to circulate around the current that it needs.
Title: Re: LTspice IV Computes That Over Unity AC Circuit Works!
Post by: rensseak on May 03, 2009, 12:02:07 PM
@D.R.Jackson

in some cases it look like a JT

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123)
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg175940;topicseen#msg175940 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.msg175940;topicseen#msg175940)

Title: Re: LTspice IV Computes That Over Unity AC Circuit Works!
Post by: D.R.Jackson on May 05, 2009, 12:12:58 AM
Ok I have done some analysis of Pure DC input power versus AC output power wave cycles and their period and average of the peaks.  And have a model I am working on to tweak up where the period of the wave cycle is the same as that of the input signal, but the postive going power cycle peak is of longer duration (longr than 180 degrees) than that of the input siganl making the powering up cycle longer per wave cycle and the average of the peaks come out to over the input.  I will upload those models as soon as I am done working on them with a text as well as reference graphics.  Both the duration of the power on the postive peak is longer and the average of the peaks are greater than the pure DC input power when multipied by 2 for peak to peak AC.

Neadless to say it shocks me.  I will upload those as soon as I can for you to run and prove to yourself.

I am just passing through here quickly to add some comments to my post and must get back to work here.  So when I have free time to read up on all of the replies to my post here I will answer them.

I have had some very important analysis observations and break throughs in the past days here.

But first of all I must comment that, I have to watch about forgetting to make power supply adjustments in my models when I replace one transistor type in the circuit with another since I can end up with too much transistor collector voltage on the model.  The remedy for you is to turn down the power supply voltage if I forgot and left it high.  The results is lower output watts, but all things being relative the circuit performs the same ratio wise.

I did not like the way that my capacitor voltage divider was performing over time in my novelty version of my sonic resonator circuit and so scrapped that idea for the moment.  And went back to the power supply to power the circuit.  But I will return back to look at this idea again later.

For the moment I have made some extra energy conservation improvements to the circuit and have made it work better.

What I have been doing now to measure the performance is comparing the input power in terms of DC peak power versus the average output power wave cycle peaks across a resistor R1 between Vc and ground.

First of all, contrary to someones measurements of the period of the wave cycles, the period of the wave cycle is exactly of the same period as the input signal source.  However, the positive powering half cycle is converted to a longer duration, making the output power on the half cycle longer per cycle and thus powering the output longer in joules per time terms than the original signal sinewave input.  The positive hald cycle peak of the output power wave cycle is thus longer than that of the input power and equates to longer powering time per cycle which alone is an energy enhancement.

Next of all, by adjustment of the parts with regards to the concepts of the principles of the circuit and analyzing the peaks of the output per positve half cycle and then averaging them as the folk over at the LTspice forum claimed that they did.  The averaged power output peak to peak terms with regards to the input power in DC peak terms is over twice the DC input peak power by 1 watt in some models.  However,since the positive half cycle is also of a longer duration than 180 degrees, this equates to the output power in watts being higher than the average of the peaks, in terms of joules per time.  Or duration of the power cycle.

At time certain things did not add up right like the theory says.  However what I found out is that I have to work on adjustment of my partts in the circuit to recover and conserve energy losses and these proved to me that with the above comments that it is possible to make the model realize and demonstrate that the comments and critque of the good folk over at the LTspice forum were wrong.

I realize that there are many good folk over at the forum and they have helped me with things for my radio circuit design projects before.  But I realize also that sometimes someone out of habit might look at a plot and formulate a conclusion without actually measuring things in the plots.  Which, well that happens.

What I am going to do for you here who are interested in running some models that will stand up to the analysis.  Is to upload those models I am working on measuring now, along with the input power wavecycle plots and the analysis of those things mentioned above.  And you can run those models in LTspice to examine whether not yourself if what I am saying and have found out is true.

There in one thing though about the circuits that make it kind of hard to use the power and that is the way it wants to be loaded at out put that will not effect the resonance (timing) of the circuit and degrade its performance.  And that is the fact that it wants to see a capacitor or a resitor across the output.  And so, the circuit seems for the moment to only be usefull for power enhancements to residential lighting (florescent or incandesent) as well as for resistive loads such as electrical heaters.

Knowing that the circuit did not want to work into anyother thing that is useful to us other than resistances such as electric lights and electric heaters.  I decided that if this is all that the concept of the circuit could ever be upscaled and used for.  Then that was what I have to focus on.  And so, it might not be something that will revolutionize the world of electrical energy as we might have had hopes for.  But we do need something to enhance our electric light and electric heating technologies and so, I guess we have to go with what the circuit demonstrates that it wants to see as an output.

I will give as many analyusis notes and observations as I can in notes insid emy Spice file upload that I will upload here when I am done.  And LTspice plot graphics also of my analysis I done and refer to.

And once everyone is then satisfied that the models running on a power supply (and not via a capacitor voltage divider such as I uploaded as a novel model concept) compute in their LTspice simulations to an energy enhancement.  I will then return back to some former ideas and see if I can better realize them with my newly teaked up models.

True, there are days when it all looks good and then bad.  But my discovery that my original ideas for tweaking the circuit to effect it wave cycle period and its averaged out power by analysis of the waveform peaks averaged out.  Made me look up again.  And so, if I can tame the capacitor voltage divider concept.  Which is a simulation that runs way to long on myslowPCand would have to run a few hours to test my theories for solving the discharge and allowing the circuit to balance it out in time.  I will return back to that and see if I can come up with something that will make it all better even more.

In theory the lower capacitor of the voltage divider should charge down the voltage and then stop somewheres in time and the circuit should charge it back up and thus over time have a slow running wave cycle of positive and neagative peaks.  But that remains yet to be seen.  But if I can accomplish that, then we can have the kind of power expression that the current simulation of that model demonstrates.  And I need a faster PC to analyze that slow running simulation.

Well I try to stay on top of energy conservation and loss recovery views in my circuit concepts, that follow the laws of physics and do not violate any of them.  Which is the whole matter of the design ~ energy conservation and recover (or to say recycling of losses).  Abd so, as long as the views are not violating physical laws, then LTspice with all of its programmed in math and physical laws will run the models.  If the laws violate those inside LTspice, then the model will not run or not demonstrate anything useful.  So all things must be accounted for in terms of energy loss recovery and conservation, and then the idea is to allow the electromechanical resonance of the circuit to add in, if the theories of all the Tesla buffs are true, an amount of latent energy that resonance provides.  It is such that the idea of electromechanical resonance is considered to be an energy plus rather than a loss.  And so, this is the idea of the circuit, to test those assumptions long held by Tesla buffs.

And who knows, what I might not be able to do with my circuit.  Others in universities with advanced degrees and insight as well as advanced math analysis in teams scattered out across the world.  May come up with a synopsis of the circuit and an equation from which they can convert the circuit into another form one day that will realize things that I can not at the moment.  But I do have to present software analysis of the principle in a beyond a shadow of a doubt way that anyone in this world can run in the software and analyze for themselves. So thats my next step. Those software analysis of proofs for feasibity reasons. 

So I will be here when I am done to give you those models I am working with now for you to run and analyze.

What I will provide then as an LTspice model for you to run is the one that I can design with the best expression of power versus power with all the notes on how to effect the performance of the circuit. And then, advanced engineering students and researchers can analyze everything mathematically.

All I ask of anyone who uses these models for analsysis and study is that when you make public mention of them ~ you always give me credit by name. And that if you want to market the technology you must compensate me with something good in return, you know, licensed by me.  And accredited by me.  For all of my many years of work in conceiving of the concepts and principles as the father of the invention.  And so, these devices are provide to all in an Open Source development manner.  Also, if you come up with a unique model you must provide it to me for me to look at and analyze.  And it must always be in the form of an LTspice file and not Tina Spice or Pspice, etc.  And I will always want to see a version of any product that comes to be marketed with these ideas.  So I can sample it and use it.  Without any expense to me to procure.

My finalized models for you will come to you with Acceptable Use Terms that you must abide by for using the concepts in research.  And you must agree to compensate me if you obtain a research grant for my innovations, and for if you want to consult with me.  And I reserve the right to charge a fee for consultations.
Title: Re: LTspice IV Computes That Over Unity AC Circuit Works!
Post by: TinselKoala on May 05, 2009, 01:21:53 PM
Your work is interesting, but there's a lot to get through. So that we are on the same page, can you confirm that we mean the same things when we are talking about certain concepts?
Joule = the fundamental unit of ENERGY, and is equal to Watt-second.
Watt = the fundamental unit of POWER, and is equal to Joules per Second, that is , (Watt-Seconds)/Seconds.
And the term "per", as is your phrase "Joules per second" is normally to be interpreted as the division operator, as in Joules per second = (Joules)/(Seconds), which of course equals Watts.

Am I with you so far?

I am asking this, because it sounds to me like you are still trying to compare Watts (that is, instantaneous power) in and out, when you should be comparing Joules (total energy) in and out. When waveforms are considered, the proper computation of energy goes like this: You do an instantaneous multiplication of your current and your voltage waveforms. This gives you an instantaneous power waveform. Then you integrate that waveform over the time of the measurement period. This integral of the instantaneous power will be the Energy in Joules, and is the appropriate measurement for Coefficient of Power (CoP) or whatever overunity / underunity ratio you might want.
At least, that's the way I understand it. Of course I could be revealing my hide-bound ignorance here for the world to see. But it's not really my field, after all.
Anyway, when you say "Joules per second", why don't you just say "Watts" if that's what you mean?
Title: Re: LTspice IV Computes That Over Unity AC Circuit Works!
Post by: WilbyInebriated on May 05, 2009, 02:49:25 PM
tk, it's my understanding that 'watts' is used more often in high school level books/discussions on the subject and 'joules per second' is used more often in more advanced books/discussions. i have no idea why. personally i think 'watts' should be done away with, but that's just me.
Title: Re: LTspice IV Computes That Over Unity AC Circuit Works!
Post by: TinselKoala on May 05, 2009, 03:14:18 PM
tk, it's my understanding that 'watts' is used more often in high school level books/discussions on the subject and 'joules per second' is used more often in more advanced books/discussions. i have no idea why. personally i think 'watts' should be done away with, but that's just me.
It's because "Watts" doesn't capture the whole story. It's easy to conceptualize, using the hydraulic analogy and DC currents, that Watts is Volts times Amps (pressure times flow) and represents some total ability to do work over a period of time. But with more complex AC waveforms or duty cycles, the situation is more, well, complex.
The (joules) = watt seconds, and (joules/second) = watts, these are Definitions and are part of the standard system (SI) of physics notation.
See http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/units.html Table 3
Title: Re: LTspice IV Computes That Over Unity AC Circuit Works!
Post by: WilbyInebriated on May 05, 2009, 03:20:00 PM
It's because "Watts" doesn't capture the whole story. It's easy to conceptualize, using the hydraulic analogy and DC currents, that Watts is Volts times Amps (pressure times flow) and represents some total ability to do work over a period of time. But with more complex AC waveforms or duty cycles, the situation is more, well, complex.
The (joules) = watt seconds, and (joules/second) = watts, these are Definitions and are part of the standard system (SI) of physics notation.
See http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/units.html Table 3
sorry, i said that wrong. i have no idea why they choose to use a term that, as you eloquently stated, doesn't tell the whole story to jr. and high schoolers. i think they should start with 'joules per second' and 'watts' shouldn't even be brought into the discussion until it is at a more advanced level.
Title: Re: LTspice IV Computes That Over Unity AC Circuit Works!
Post by: D.R.Jackson on May 09, 2009, 01:27:52 AM
Well the sonic resonator is perfected now, and you can download the final model below to verify the statements and the wattage plot of this post.  Despite some of the comments made in reply to me, check all of this out for yourself.

Consider the following based upon a DC power input of 5.29 Watts pure steady state DC.

First of all the DC signal output has been worked on and perfected into a DC signal square wave output.  The amplitude of the DC signal is 8.23 Watts.  The rms, average and peak of a square wave are the same.  And please note that the output at this point across the 120 ohm load resistor is a DC Peak signal output of 8.23 Watts.  This has not been converted to peak to peak AC in the model but I have a model I have done this with.

Also, extra energy is stored in the half wave cycle by it being extend past the 180 degree half cycle point by +50 degrees to the 230 degree point in the wave cycle.  So energy has been stored in the half wave by extension of the half cycle of 0.5 wave cycles to 0.64 wave cycles.  As can be seen in the below plot.  And you can download the model to run and verify that this is the case below also.  You can easily see that the half wave in proportion to the entire wave cycle, is reaching over into the negative half cycle and so, has its half cycle period extended.

Since this is a DC output signal, the positive half cycle is the On state, and the negative half cycle is the Off state.  And so, can be viewed the same way as a digital signal.  The Period of the On state then is extended +50 degrees to the 230 degree position of the wave cycle.  So the the period of the On state of the power cycle is thus now 64% (230 degrees) of the wave cycle rather than 50% (180 degrees) of the wave cycle.  So more energy is added into the power cycle this way, and not just only in the unusual peak power output amplitude that the model demonstrates in software simulations.  The power then is stored in the wave cycle both by amplitude ~ as well as by extension of the period of the half cycle to 230 degrees.

Now there is no way with ordinary circuit concepts you are going to get a square wave output of 8.23 Watts output with only 5.29 Watts DC input from a DC power supply.  If you do the math on a purely lossless system model (theoretically 100% efficient system) you will not get a  8.23 Watts square wave calculated out of an input of 5.29 Watts DC input ~ unless there is more to the circuits concepts and principles than meets the eye.  Such as conservation of losses and restoration of those losses back into the circuit to do useful work.  And the use of electromechanical resonance.

If you convert 5.29 Watts DC to a DC Signal Peak of 5.29W*1.414 = 7.48006W in a lossless  model (and this is based upon a sine wave peak rather than a square wave).  So the rms value of the sine wave peak will be 5.29 Watts, and our rms value of our square wave is the same as its average and peak which equals 8.23 Watts.  Understand?  See?  Thats over unity.

Ok now imagine that you upscale this device into the hundreds of watts range or the kilowatts range.

Example:  Input power is 529 Watts, the output square wave power then equals 823 Watts.  And so, for lighting and heating we have a unique scenario for cost saving.

Or lets upscale this to look like this:

5290 Watt steady DC In ~ 8230 Watts DC square wave signal Out.

(By adding a capacitor in series with the output and a light bulb or heater you have a simple method of converting the DC to AC for such loads.)

So, the idea seems to hold some interesting potential especially for industrial lighting and heating cost savings.  But would be something nice to use out here in the private residential sector for our lighting and heating needs.

For industrial manufacturing facilities that use a few thousands watts per day merely for lighting, and then in the winter uses infra red space heating for large open areas.  I am sure that a good amount of cost savings can be accomplished by use of these circuits to enhance the power.  And so, I would classify these devices as "electrical power enhancement circuits".

Summed Up:

Here is how it all adds up.  After the software simulation runs the circuit's simulation the DC power input starts to become steady after 3 seconds.  So the initial charge up of the circuit is complete and the current and voltage of the power supply become steady at around 5.29 Watts steady state DC.  Now since there is no periodic wave cycle power in the power supply at this point.  The rms, average and peak power input of the power supply are all one and the same, 5.29 Watts pure DC steady state.  And so, the square wave output is likewise to the DC power input, the rms, average and peak power of the square wave are one and the same, 8.23 Watts.  So we have a power enhancement of: 2.94 Watts.

Extended Half Cycle Period:

Now its hard to tell how the extended period of the half cycle will average out in terms of the power that is placed in the extended +50 degrees past the 180 degree half cycle. 

It just so happens that 5.29 Watts / 8.23 Watts = 0.6427

When rounded off, this equals 0.64 or our extended half cycle period.

Since there appears to be a direct relationship between the square wave amplitude and the extended period of the half cycle.  I can not say that we can extend the period of the half cycle anymore.  And so, there is a limit. 

If it can be extended I do not believe that it can be extend so that the angle of the period is 270 degrees, which would reach the negative peak.  But, if it is possible to extend it more, then I suspect that it will not go past 0.7 wave cycles at most.  Perhaps 0.68 might be the limit if that amount of periodic extension can be accomplished?

It would perhaps take a super computer able to analyze and also make design changes and tweaks, to come up with some sort of improvement.  Given a standard model to begin with, the software then would analyze the circuit, change a parts unit value and analyze the results of the various changes made and tabulate the data ~ and then formulate the most efficient model from its data.  So thats what we need to happen somewheres, someday.  Its kind of hard for one person to keep track of all of the various changes and their effect and data.

Innovation:

I guess all we are going to get is baby steps here, and so, the rest is up to a whole army of researchers and university students to improve and make something out of the math of it all.

I am hoping though that someone with some Spice library models for vacuum tubes might make this into a higher powered device model.  And maybe realize a greater ratio of input to output power for use in such things as industrial electric lighting and heating.  My tube suggestion for this is the 4-65 A beam power tube.  And if anyone comes up with a LTspice library model for this particular vacuum tube, then I would like to have a copy of that to model circuits with.

I would have to say that with all of the circuit components, that would normally result in allot of losses in such a circuit.  And with a DC power input that in no way under conventional thinking can equate to a square wave output as this model demonstrates, that this model best demonstrates what some refer to as over unity.  Which in some engineering circles is a taboo and hence forbidden term.

You can download the model here and run it and who knows, somewheres, sometime ~ someone else may advance it even more.

Loading The Circuit:

As for the ways I have found to load the circuit to take power off, you can use a capacitor, a resistor or a coil or transformer.  However when you add a diode or two to rectify the output and then a filter capacitor you have immediate losses.  I believe that one of the things that happens is that the diodes pulse the half cycles and so, these pulses feed back into the transistor collector circuit of L1 and L2, etc, as a reflected wave and upset the circuits timings.  And the filter capacitor draws allot of charge current.  This does not mean that in time a remedy will not be found.  However if no remedy is ever found, then the application of the circuit is such that it will work with resistive loads such as electric lights and heaters.  But these things account for allot of our power use.  Electric heating is used in manufacturing on a daily basis and not just in the winter.

Applications:

Given enough output voltage, the circuit I believe could change the way we light our buildings particularly when using fluorescent lights that respond to higher frequencies better than they do to 60 Hz.  Some fluorescent lights can be fired up without filament heaters in each end.  Tesla did this using H.F. frequencies.

Also, in some of my models I have been able to effect high instantaneous power peaks.  Such peaks I believe would be useful with fluorescent lights and with quartz (infra red) heaters as well as with oil filled heaters that store heat in the thermal mass of the oil.  The idea of the oil heater is to use the regular 120V AC line to bring the oil up to hot, then this device can replenish heat losses with instantaneous high wattage peaks.  And so, sort of stroke the heat, and stoke it up.  While resulting in a cost savings.

However the square wave output when used in a higher voltage and higher powered model is able to flat out run a quartz or oil filled heater and bring it up to hot, and then can be switched, manually or in a self automated manner to provide instantaneous power peaks which is more applicable with oil filled heaters than with quartz types (the instantaneous peak mode I mean).

And well, the device can be used with incandescent light bulbs also.

Since the device works on a DC power supply input, in an emergency the device can be powered by a few automotive batteries and so, provide light and heat.

Since the device can be used with batteries it then would make a great addition to solar electric systems since the device can run straight off of the storage battery bank.  And so, enhance the lighting and heating capability of solar electric systems making them more efficient.

The margin of efficiency that my low powered simulation model under discussion here demonstrates is equal to:

8.23 Watts / 5.29 Watts = 1.55:1 

Now to calculate the improvement:

5.29 Watts / 8.23 Watts = 0.6427 ~ equal to the extended period of the half cycle

0.64 wave cycle - 0.5 wave cycle = 0.14

0.14*100 =14%

14% then equals the power enhancement improvement that this model would provide to a solar electric system.

More Software Analysis:

I have seen applications written for LTspice by hobbyist that run in the program.  My thoughts is that someone might become familiar with these circuits.  Or a team of researchers, may write an application for use in LTspice, or an whole new Spice software, that can analyze this circuit (and this circuit only)  and self adjust and tweak around the parts values so that the software can come up with a design with the best figures of Input versus Output.  And such things as transistor or vacuum tube max voltage and current ratings not be exceeded.

Conclusion:

I believe in sharing things that are important with others.  And I know allot of us study and try hard to accomplish things with regards to potential over unity or alternative energy innovations.  And so, more minds working on somethings leads to something in the world sooner.  And who knows, someone may be working on something that we can not conceive of at the moment that will achieve something even more for us when combined with these ideas.

Then again, we may not ever find anything else that seems for the moment to be feasible at least in software analysis.  And I know I don't have any 1 Henry to 0.5 Henry transformers at the moment to prototype a test bench model with, but someone out there may.

I of course do hope that something else will come along somewheres to help round out the world of alternative energy concepts.  And whether or not their ideas can be combined with mine for a more complete and effective concept.  Well, is not the point, if someone else has something that is working or at least can be modeled in software, then I hope that their innovations also will add to the world of things that we need.

More than anything, we need people to become focused on something that appears to be feasible in software analysis.  And so, allow as many as can and want to, to do those analysis themselves and so, pool together.  And then as a world wide team of interest, we can make test and if all goes well, we will have something that I hope will work on the test bench.  An who knows who will be the first to get all of the parts together to test it all?  Sure wished today that I had the parts to test it all.

If I could have a transformer to test these circuits with, I would like one of those new toroid core power supply and audio transformer types  with a 1 Henry primary and a 0.5 Henry secondary.  And there is a new core material that is used with audio transformers that consist of powdered ferrite with piezio electric crystal powder impregnated into the powdered ferrite core.  It is said that this core enhances the audio quality and so, I wonder what it might do in this circuit?  I wonder if the piezio electric crystal might be capable of adding its electrical energy to the sum of energies?

Ok, when I saw that my concepts worked in software simulations, I thought then that I had accomplished it.  But I had to work at it all to get something substantial out of it.  And so, days it looked all good and then days it did not.

And so, I concluded early in my testing that if all I could get out of this is enhancements for electric lighting and heating then thats perhaps what we need the most at this time.  And so, though the device fails when I attempt to convert the output to DC for obtaining an energy efficient power supply it does shine with potential for use with lighting and heating. 

So, when I realized that my square wave output held up to the idea of a notable and demonstrable energy enhancement.  I was satisfied with that.  I did realize in the end what I was looking for.  And its hard to argue with the results when it comes to us in a square wave output in watts where the rms, average and peak power of the square wave are all one and the same.

LTspice IV analysis then demonstrates that the over unity device concept works in software, and is feasible in software analysis.  And anyone can run the simulation for themselves and analyze the DC input versus the square wave output power ratio.  And you can download those files here at in this post.
Title: Re: LTspice IV Computes That Over Unity AC Circuit Works!
Post by: TinselKoala on May 09, 2009, 03:00:54 AM
Power is not energy!!
A device isn't overunity unless it outputs more Energy than input.
I realize that is simplifying a bit. But it's still true.
Can you show, computed with your LTSpice simulation, the time integral of your watts waveforms?
Also, there can be a lot of energy gained or lost in those little wiggles at the top of your "square" wave, plus the rise and fall times of the "square" aren't all that steep. So I believe you are overestimating the energy in your output, even though your math, comparing some kind of average watts and assuming perfect squareness of your waves, might be right.

Title: Re: LTspice IV Computes That Over Unity AC Circuit Works!
Post by: TinselKoala on May 09, 2009, 03:10:52 AM
I just took a closer look at the numbers on your graph. That wave is nowhere near "square"! My oscilloscope's calibration trace is a more accurate square wave than that, with less ripple on the top and 20 nanosecond rise and fall time. Your rise and fall times appear to be on the order of 50 microseconds or so!!  That is, if I'm reading your numbers right. 300 microseconds between vertical divisions on your scope, right?
That's not a square wave.
Title: Re: LTspice IV Computes That Over Unity AC Circuit Works!
Post by: TinselKoala on May 09, 2009, 04:11:01 AM
This is a square wave.
Horizontal scale 50 microseconds/division. Vertical scale 10 milliVolts/division. Note the fast rise times and lack of ripple, compared to the "square" wave in the LTSpice simulation that you use in your power calculations under the assumption that it is perfectly square. On this scale your rise slope would probably be about 60 degrees, and I don't believe anybody would call it "square".
But I wouldn't even trust this square wave to be accurate in a real energy calculation.

But, using your numbers, again: I estimate that the deviation from true squareness in your output waveform brings its power down to something under 8 watts. But, unfortunately, 5.29 watts continuous input power, divided by the 64 percent duty cycle of the output waveform (an overestimate, by the way) is 8.265625 watts.

(A note on accuracy and significant digits: If you say that an answer to a computation is "8.265625" you are saying that it is NOT "8.265626" and NOT "8.265624" and so on. This accuracy is impossible if the input variables are not also known to at least the same accuracy. Since the input variables in any real circuit are impossible to know with this accuracy, at least without very special techniques and equipment, it is simply FALSE to state so many significant digits in an answer about the real world. Your answer cannot have more precision than the LEAST precise variable that goes into the computation.)
Title: Re: LTspice IV Computes That Over Unity AC Circuit Works!
Post by: TinselKoala on May 09, 2009, 05:28:41 AM
"If you convert 5.29 Watts DC to a DC Signal Peak of 5.29W*1.414 = 7.48006W in a lossless  model (and this is based upon a sine wave peak rather than a square wave).  So the rms value of the sine wave peak will be 5.29 Watts, and our rms value of our square wave is the same as its average and peak which equals 8.23 Watts.  Understand?  See?  Thats over unity."

No, it's not. It's an error. You can confirm that it is an error by simply drawing the waveshapes (a constant DC at 5.29 watts, and your "square" wave, at sufficient resolution) on a piece of graph paper, cutting them out across the same time interval, and weighing them, or otherwise comparing their areas. (The area of the watts waveform is equal to the energy content). Your statement above does not even take into account duty cycle. It's easy to get high peak power levels from a low-power continuous input, as you show later when you do compute duty cycles. Your output waveform isn't square enough to justify your assumptions, the true duty cycle is less than 64 percent and the true power level is less than 8.29 watts, and once again, the appropriate measurement is ENERGY, which is power integrated over time, and your input energy is greater than your output energy. SO no overunity here.

For example, if we correct for your slow risetimes, the duty cycle might be, say, 62 percent instead of 64 percent. This means that the 5.29 watts constant input power could deliver as much as 8.532258064516129032258064516129 watts. No overunity, even if one accepts your own model's power calculations for that ripply signal,which I do not.

And see how ridiculous it looks when you just grab all the digits your calculator spits out? The proper answer from that computation is 8.5 watts.

Understand? See?
Title: Re: LTspice IV Computes That Over Unity AC Circuit Works!
Post by: TinselKoala on May 09, 2009, 06:15:50 PM
Of course, you could just start yet another thread. But one wonders why you haven't addressed a single point I've made (and others have made) in this one.
Title: Re: LTspice IV Computes That Over Unity AC Circuit Works!
Post by: D.R.Jackson on May 09, 2009, 10:14:19 PM
Hey nut the significant digits are those of LTspice in its display and so, what the hell do you think you are doing with all of this?

A Square Wave in electronics does not have to be perfect or don't you know that?  So long as the 95% of it is within the square wave form its square enough or don't you know that?

As for a little ripple across the top.  Thats common is switching power supplies and means little in the end.

You think that everything in electronics has to be precise.  No circuits ever has to be as precise as the model  and never is,  just close enough.  Builders seldom are as precise in the real model as the design of the circuit diagram.

And so, why the thing about all the significant figures?  In electronics we usually round the units off to three figures as I do in my post.

Who cares if the software computes that the wattage has 7 of more significant figures?  We don't add them all up, we can if we want.

And most anyone who uses LTspice can and most likely will know how to measure ever crest and trough of the wave form ripple and then average up the power that way.  And its simple to do, and the way the software is made to analyze the wave forms of the power output since after all it is a power supply design software.

I suppose I might ask you what you been smoking but you probably wouldn't admit it.
Title: Re: LTspice IV Computes That Over Unity AC Circuit Works!
Post by: fritz on May 10, 2009, 11:50:34 AM
Well, I think I´m known here for being one of the diplomatic ones - but shifting very simple things to an even complex tool you don´t understand - for a technology you don´t understand prooves only that you have no fear of anybody laughing at you.

Taken your view of OU - almost any household device would emits tons of OU ending up in the half mankind already grilled.

Its important with research that you know what you don´t know - and if you need a certain knowledge - have an idea how to get it.

Things like the two threads you opened here bring this site down.

If I would have the time I could start a matlab thread with the simulation outcome that we don´t exist.

But thats not the goal of this forum - as far as I can understand that.
Title: Re: LTspice IV Computes That Over Unity AC Circuit Works!
Post by: poynt99 on May 10, 2009, 03:19:45 PM
If done correctly, power measurements are valid for determining COP.

In the case presented here where the claimed COP is 8.33W/5.29W = 1.57:1, an error has been made.

With pulsed DC power, the RMS power is the average power over one cycle (assuming the wave form is periodic).

Input power (RMS) = 5.29W RMS (no dispute here, will assume correct)

Output power (RMS) = 8.23Wp x .64 (duty cycle) = 5.27W RMS

COP = Po/Pi = 5.27/5.29 = 0.996:1

Conclusion: The circuit is clearly underunity, and LTSpice is running correctly. Interpretation of the output data is in error.

Two oversights:

1) Duty Cycle must be taken into account for any measurement, and for pulsed DC the RMS power is the average power. If the wave form is periodic (i.e. repeating consistently) one need only compute one cycle. The RMS power is: Po(peak) [Ton/period].

2) From the above it was noted that the COP was nearly 1:1. In theory it should have been exactly 1:1, but due to rounding errors etc, it was 0.996:1. This is not a big concern, but the point that should be noted, is in the real world this figure would have been significantly less, perhaps 0.8:1 or worse. The reason the circuit presented here exhibits a COP of 1:1 is because no real world finite resistances are present in the circuit. Every inductor or transformer has a real world DC resistance, and if introduced in the circuit, the simulation would clearly show a reduced COP, well below 1:1.

Regards,
.99

Title: Re: LTspice IV Computes That Over Unity AC Circuit Works!
Post by: D.R.Jackson on February 07, 2018, 11:34:01 AM
I recently found some folk on Facebook working on my circuits here in this forum, I have not been to this post in 9 years and forgot the extent of the files I had here, so I have had to review them.  I want to add some recent circuit snap shots here to this discussion since some people might like the vision of them.  And I have something new for this circuit to work on in the coming days and hope it all works out.