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Hydrogen energy => Motors or Vehicles running on HHO or Hydrogen only, no gasoline => Topic started by: NickT on April 26, 2009, 05:37:36 AM
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Take a look at this video. I don't know if it has been posted already or not ???. I have stumbled upon this video today and it looked pretty interesting.
Does anyone know on what principles it operates ? Has anyone found any patents on this ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQMXzpTaIh4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQMXzpTaIh4)
Cheers
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I don't consider what he is showing of this a big deal. RF radio frequency EMF is being used to
electrolyse water. That is, separate it into it's components H and O gasses, when it's component
are physically mixed you get HHO gas otherwise known as browns gas. You let it move up a little
physically then ignite it and burns in a flame. The flame area probably absorbs some RF microwave
itself so it burns brighter. He doesn't show or claim overunity.
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But CF cold fusion is caused when you deposit mechanical phonons into a fluid containing
chemical hydrogen bonds and have a target material. And RF EMF could probably deposit
the phonons. So I wouldn't be surprised if he found some slight overunity associated with his
method.
:S:MarkSCoffman
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First he is not electrolysizing water, the process of electrolysis is vastly different than rf diassociation.
He does not claim ou your correct.
He is not making hho, well not just hho, and as a point of interest he does not have to ignite the flame, it auto ignites. Which is another proof that it is not electrolysis.
Cold fusion is the fusion of two hydrogen atoms into helium atoms without gamma (neutron) radiation.
Many of of have seen this video, but no one has replicated it, and few understand it. I believe it to be of some significance when used correctly.
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Since Kanzius hasn't publish his experiment.. You might as well consider all the youtube videos as fraudulent. There is nothing of value in that video.
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I wouldn't call it fraud, since he had some people come in check it, and he did it on video, but I would call it a waste of his time and energy, specially considering that he had so little left. I would call it useless certainly.
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I don't consider what he is showing of this a big deal. RF radio frequency EMF is being used to
electrolyse water.
Is RF electrolysis even possible? Do you have a reference?
Last time I looked into his research (Kanzius), I couldn't find any information published on his 'salt water fire' experiment. IMO it is fake.
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He is not making hho, well not just hho, and as a point of interest he does not have to ignite the flame, it auto ignites. Which is another proof that it is not electrolysis.
Many of of have seen this video, but no one has replicated it, and few understand it. I believe it to be of some significance when used correctly.
I am not an experimentalist but I believe him that using the correct RF frequency one
can cause the separation of water containing the electrolyte NaCl into H and O gasses.
This person was a TV station executive and they are used to dealing with RF carriers
of many megawatts (especially UHF TV). So having 2KW kilowatts RF out or so, which
is a largish amount of energy in his experiment wouldn't suprise me. The catalytic way
of making industrial quantities of hydrogen gas uses raw heat I believe.The generation of
RF is generally not a very efficient process especially using the equipment that he has
(which is more interested in precision rather than efficiency.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XFLdefVYog&feature=related
In this alternate video at time 1:42 it clearly shows a BBQ grill lighter being inserted
to ignite the system. Running the small sterling engine shows the problem;
his loop efficiency is going to come out really low. I also don't like his combining
the homeopathic cancer cure and the overunity energy stuff - his experiment
should really demonstrate one or the other.
I have seen too many videos that use flames to indicate qualitative overunity
energy production when overunity needs to be proved quantitatively.
:S:MarkSCoffman
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As to the eff. of this process, I have not data on it, but I would tend to agree that it is more than likely not all that great.
But look at :48 in the video and you will see the flame spontaneously occur, no ignition source needed.
And you are mistaken in the 1:42 mark, that is not a bbq lighter, it is a micropipette filled with saltwater, the test test only has water in it, as soon as the saltwater mixes it auto ignitites.
The point is not that this is OU, but it shows some properties that should be understood and investigated.
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As to the eff. of this process, I have not data on it, but I would tend to agree that it is more than likely not all that great.
But look at :48 in the video and you will see the flame spontaneously occur, no ignition source needed.
And you are mistaken in the 1:42 mark, that is not a bbq lighter, it is a micropipette filled with saltwater, the test test only has water in it, as soon as the saltwater mixes it auto ignitites.
The point is not that this is OU, but it shows some properties that should be understood and investigated.
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Dr. Kanzius died earlier this year, from the cancer he was trying so hard to find a cure for (he had suffered from it for many years, even before he starting his experiments). The work goes on, and much as with Rife and others in the past, the key to it's success apparently is to find the proper F that will attack the cancer cells without killing healthy ones.
Are there ways of generating 13.56 MHz "RF" at high energy efficiency? Many here believe there is. After all, the salt water DID burn, there is significant proof of it, no one has debunked it with evidence (just knee-jerk denials), and the temp of the burn is 3,000 Deg. F .... A company in Erie, PA was working on this and many have witnessed it. Dr. Kanzius was apparently never very keen on this, i think he mainly considered it a distraction from the cancer cure which was his goal, or a way to gain more interest at least.
I think it was his bad luck to end up bucking TWO highly suppressed technology areas... Free energy AND cancer cures.
Besides being in the local news in both Erie and in Florida, he was also featured on "60 Minutes".
Building a specialized heater and circuit to create and utilize the 3k heat would not need much in the way of energy efficiency to prove it was "over unity" (.. via calculation of BTU's alone, anyway).
The main problems would be proper RF shielding, proper venting or "scrubbing" of the mildly poisonous fumes associated from burning seawater, and a possible requirement for a special FCC license for doing it (it would interfere with "RFID" which has been assigned that range pretty much world-wide now... But the good news is that RFID is a very short-range technology and not "everywhere" like cell phones or wi-fi).
Here's a Paper on it... http://www.rustumroy.com/Scans/Observations%20of%20polarized%20MRI%20vol%2012%20is%201.pdf
Kenneth says the frequency is "13.56 MHz", Mr. Rather.... And it was Dr. John Kanzius who told him so.
May he rest in peace.
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And another inventor has entered the deadpool.
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Actual there was more than one Kanzius video. One shows reporters and Kanzius
standing around igniting this system with what looks like smoldering wooden splints
- those incense sticks.
If the fluid is relatively pure salt water then the only thing that can cause a significant
combustion flame is HHO. The only alternative would be some sort of RF plasma entity.
Obviously if it is HHO, then getting to ignite would not be much of a problem. If
Kanzius didn't see it was HHO then he should have.
The other thing to be aware of is HHO flame emits optical energy in the IR infrared
part of the spectrum and CCD TV cameras are extra sensitive to IR.
Water does not burn! - HHO does.
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If you want to look at a RF radio frequency induced CF cold fusion HHO system
that is efficient and looks like it really works and has overunity gain, check out;
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6170.0
:S:MarkSCoffman
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i wonder if it is water dissociation or NaCl dissociation that start the burning process.
Elementary sodium reacts strongly with water, according to the following reaction mechanism:
2Na(s) + 2H2O → 2NaOH(aq) + H2(g)
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This has to do with Meyl`s neutrino stuff/theories ... that old scalar waves stuff ... VVTF are scalar waves ??
This is very BIG stuff
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How about someone prove that polarized RF can actually disassociate salt water? Has anyone replicated this? If it is possible, this technique would be consider new science, I believe.. But I haven't seen any replications (or even detailed replication information on the experiment) .. The patents were pretty much worthless wrt to providing details, I thought.
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I don't buy this guy's claim. A 13.57 Mhz photon just doesn't have enough energy (normally) to ionize salt water, from what I've read.. If it was a 13,570,000,000,000 Hz photon, then it might be possible. If it was possible, wouldn't the sun have disassociated the ocean by now (over millions of years)?
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I don't buy this guy's claim. A 13.57 Mhz photon just doesn't have enough energy (normally) to ionize salt water, from what I've read.. If it was a 13,570,000,000,000 Hz photon, then it might be possible. If it was possible, wouldn't the sun have disassociated the ocean by now (over millions of years)?
how do microwave oven work ?
does it need to ionize something to do what is does ?
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You can't compare the two phenomena, they're completely different.
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You can't compare the two phenomena, they're completely different.
why is it different ?
tell me, since water molecules can be "shaked" by RF, isnt it safe to assume that the same can be true for any molecules, given the right frequency is meet ?
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Microwave ovens work by rotating water molecules back and forth really fast which generate heat. The process is called dielectric heating. In dielectric heating all the energy goes towards heat generation... In photoionization, ideally no energy is lost in heat, and all the photon's energy is used to eject the H-O-H binding electrons, which make hydroxy gas.
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Microwave ovens work by rotating water molecules back and forth really fast which generate heat. The process is called dielectric heating. In dielectric heating all the energy goes towards heat generation... In photoionization, ideally no energy is lost in heat, and all the photon's energy is used to eject the H-O-H binding electrons, which make hydroxy gas.
ionization is not the only way to get hydrogen and ionization alone does not init hydrogen either.
remark i am not a chemist, so i might be wrong.
what make you think "photoionization" is the only possible way in this case ?
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Photonionization is the only known way to disassociate water with RF. So, I'll pretty be skeptical till people start replicating this experiment (with full disclosure) .. Which as far as I can tell hasn't happened yet.
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It turns out this experiment has been duplicated;
Try entering "Rustum Roy salt water electrolysis"
into Google. The result were exactly as I have stated.
Liquid electrolytic rectifiers where some of the first
diodes used in electronics.
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I think that we here should have a better definition of
"burning" then the general public. For example it ought to
mean oxidation, rather then simple disassociation. This is
actually a bi-directional chemical reaction were both
directions nearly share the same space. So energy is going
in as RF and energy is coming out as heat and light.
:S:MarkSCoffman
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The most detailed paper released is here: http://www.rustumroy.com/ .. This is a replication, but it includes nothing of value, imo. No information about their RF beam generator or polarization method, etc.
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I've been saying for a good while now that this, if true, is really a break through. One scientist said that this could be the biggest discovery in science in the last 100 years - or words to that effect. I tend to agree.
Being one of the biggests skeptics around here, and after having researched it, I don't get the feeling that it is a hoax. On the contrary, everything about it seems geniune.
However, forget about OU. The really interesting part is the electrochemistry taking place. This is where the mystery and intrigue lies... and it is not easily explained.
Anyone that says it is no big deal, just another form of electrolysis... adding energy to water to dissociate it into oxygen and hydrogen... blah, blah, blah, is talking absolute nonsense and clearly has no understanding of standard electrolysis.
This phenomenom is a big deal, though you can guarantee that money will already have exchanged hands somewhere and in the near future someone will be making money from this discovery. So, when someone does figure out exactly what's happening, don't expect the science behind it to be brought immediately to public attention.
Things to note:
1. The RF frequency is not necessarily the key, as this frequency is simply that designated for medical and experimental purposes - so other frequencies may work equally as well.
2. The phenomenom only exhibits itself when water is doped with sodium chloride, though I feel it is likely that any metallic salt will work. Just as in standard electrolysis, I should imagine that the better the salt as an electrolyte, the greater the effect (the better the electrolyte, the more the compound dissociates in water into ions, the more ions available). I would therefore expect sodium and potassium hydroxide to work and be more effective.
The solution would contain H2O and the ions Cl- and Na+. The ions would be influenced into motion by the RF, but what happens after is where the mystery lies.
All of the information available to date only hypotheses what is occurring, so should be taken with a pinch of salt (no pun intended). Much of what has been said or written - even by respected scientists - and rather ignorantly to my mind, compares the phenomenom to standard electrolysis and so is clearly misleading. I have seen no recent papers detailing the actual electrochemistry involved - I don't think there have been any yet, and certainly none that have been published. If anyone knows better, please speak up.
The biggest hurdle in understanding just what is happening, and why even theorising is made difficult, is the fact that, unlike standard electrolysis, there are no electrodes too act as an ion charge exchange medium. In other words, even if the RF is causing the water molecule to dissociate into H+ and OH-, there is nowhere for these ions to exchange charges to become atoms and evolve as gases.
Only if you truly understand the science behind standard everyday electrolysis will you see the difficulty in explaining this phenomenom, and indeed exactly why it is so interesting!!
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The most detailed paper released is here: http://www.rustumroy.com/ .. This is a replication, but it includes nothing of value, imo. No information about their RF beam generator or polarization method, etc.
Thank you for that link..Very interesting stuff.
RF is rather simple. They give the frequency and the
wattage. As for the antenna design check the Kansius
Patent, it is important and should be in his patent.
There is; no final RF efficiency figures. The flame's
self-ignition could be designed into either the
antenna or the final RF amplifier or could be
spontaneous with high enough RF wattage.
The NaCl ions are known to "colorize" a flame and
some of the flames heat at it's base would end up
heating the liquid electrolyte so it is somewhat of
a complex system that could/should be broken apart
for further study.
You will notice I estimated 2KiloWatts RF input
and the RF was actually only 300Watts...potential
echoes of an overunity energy process.
:S:MarkCoffman
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I really would not dwell on OU, not only is it likely a waste of time, but at this stage it is not where the interest in this phenomenom lies.
As stated the frequency is an allocated frequency, and the power is likely misleading as the test tube itself only utilises a small area between the RF transmitter and receiver, so only sees a fraction of the power transmitted. It would be logical to assume that an RF transmitter specifically designed to focus on the test tube alone could be made to be far more efficient. I'm not talking about OU, just much higher efficiency.
The metal salt ions clearly play a part in this process, but you cannot simply say that something happens. Things only happen because of chemical or electrochemical reactions - and those reactions have to make sense and above all, balance out.
If the RF creates an electric field that causes the Na+ and Cl- ions to move, then this movement can be compared to the ion current drawn through a standard electrolyser. The ion current itself serves to create collisions and interactions with the water molecule causing it to ionise into H+ and OH-, but unless these ions of water exchange charges quickly, they will recombine back into H2O. Hence no gas is evolved.
This is the same as applying an alternating voltage across a cell where the electrodes are insulated. The alternating voltage will be causing the water to ionise, but this ions are not utilised as they have no where to exchange charges, hence no gas is evolved.
To become atoms and evolve as gas, the ions must pick up and drop charges.
There is no obvious way that this can happen in the Kanzius burning saltwater phenomenom, so maybe something entirely different and to-date unknown is happening.
The first thing that has to be confirmed is what exactly is/are the gases being evolved? Is it oxygen and hydrogen? Just hydrogen? Is toxic chlorine being evolved? The answer to this question alone would be very helpful.
One thing is for sure, we will have a lot of Na+, Cl-, H+ and OH- ions all intermingling, being pulsed into motion by the applied RF signal. And somewhere, somehow, two or more of these ions are being excited enough to exchange charges when they would not normally do so. Fascinating stuff!
Incidentally, is anyone else picking up a virus threat from this website every time it is accessed?