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Author Topic: Salt Water Fuel From Radio Waves  (Read 23650 times)

Offline newbie123

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Re: Salt Water Fuel From Radio Waves
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2009, 06:09:22 PM »
I don't buy this guy's claim.         A 13.57 Mhz photon just doesn't have enough energy (normally) to ionize salt water, from what I've read..  If it was a 13,570,000,000,000 Hz photon, then it might be possible.   If it was possible, wouldn't the sun have disassociated the ocean by now (over millions of years)?

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Re: Salt Water Fuel From Radio Waves
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2009, 06:09:22 PM »

Offline TheNOP

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Re: Salt Water Fuel From Radio Waves
« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2009, 06:20:25 PM »
I don't buy this guy's claim.         A 13.57 Mhz photon just doesn't have enough energy (normally) to ionize salt water, from what I've read..  If it was a 13,570,000,000,000 Hz photon, then it might be possible.   If it was possible, wouldn't the sun have disassociated the ocean by now (over millions of years)?
how do microwave oven work ?
does it need to ionize something to do what is does ?

Offline newbie123

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Re: Salt Water Fuel From Radio Waves
« Reply #17 on: April 30, 2009, 04:58:20 AM »
You can't compare the two phenomena,  they're completely different.


Offline TheNOP

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Re: Salt Water Fuel From Radio Waves
« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2009, 06:28:01 AM »
You can't compare the two phenomena,  they're completely different.
why is it different ?

tell me, since water molecules can be "shaked" by RF, isnt it safe to assume that the same can be true for any molecules, given the right frequency is meet ?

Offline newbie123

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Re: Salt Water Fuel From Radio Waves
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2009, 06:58:32 AM »
Microwave ovens  work by rotating water molecules back and forth really fast which generate heat.   The process is called dielectric heating.    In dielectric heating all the energy goes towards heat generation... In photoionization, ideally no energy is lost in heat, and all the photon's energy is used to eject the H-O-H binding electrons, which make hydroxy gas.

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Re: Salt Water Fuel From Radio Waves
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2009, 06:58:32 AM »
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Offline TheNOP

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Re: Salt Water Fuel From Radio Waves
« Reply #20 on: April 30, 2009, 07:34:32 AM »
Microwave ovens  work by rotating water molecules back and forth really fast which generate heat.   The process is called dielectric heating.    In dielectric heating all the energy goes towards heat generation... In photoionization, ideally no energy is lost in heat, and all the photon's energy is used to eject the H-O-H binding electrons, which make hydroxy gas.
ionization is not the only way to get hydrogen and ionization alone does not init hydrogen either.

remark i am not a chemist, so i might be wrong.

what make you think "photoionization" is the only possible way in this case ?


Offline newbie123

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Re: Salt Water Fuel From Radio Waves
« Reply #21 on: April 30, 2009, 04:37:52 PM »
Photonionization is the only known way to disassociate water with RF.    So, I'll pretty be skeptical till people start replicating this experiment (with full disclosure) ..  Which as far as I can tell hasn't happened yet.

« Last Edit: April 30, 2009, 10:56:04 PM by newbie123 »

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Re: Salt Water Fuel From Radio Waves
« Reply #21 on: April 30, 2009, 04:37:52 PM »
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Offline mscoffman

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Re: Salt Water Fuel From Radio Waves
« Reply #22 on: April 30, 2009, 05:09:01 PM »
It turns out this experiment has been duplicated;

Try entering "Rustum Roy salt water electrolysis"
into Google. The result were exactly as I have stated.

Liquid electrolytic rectifiers where some of the first
diodes used in electronics.


---

I think that we here should have a better definition of
"burning" then the general public. For example it ought to
mean oxidation, rather then simple disassociation. This is
actually a bi-directional chemical reaction were both
directions nearly share the same space. So energy is going
in as RF and energy is coming out as heat and light.


:S:MarkSCoffman


Offline newbie123

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Re: Salt Water Fuel From Radio Waves
« Reply #23 on: May 01, 2009, 01:03:51 AM »
The most detailed  paper released is here: http://www.rustumroy.com/    ..  This is a replication, but it includes nothing of value, imo.  No information about their  RF beam generator or polarization method, etc.


Offline Farrah Day

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Re: Salt Water Fuel From Radio Waves
« Reply #24 on: May 05, 2009, 05:19:48 PM »
I've been saying for a good while now that this, if true, is really a break through. One scientist said that this could be the biggest discovery in science in the last 100 years - or words to that effect. I tend to agree.

Being one of the biggests skeptics around here, and after having researched it, I don't get the feeling that it is a hoax. On the contrary, everything about it seems geniune.

However, forget about OU.  The really interesting part is the electrochemistry taking place. This is where the mystery and intrigue lies... and it is not easily explained.

Anyone that says it is no big deal, just another form of electrolysis... adding energy to water to dissociate it into oxygen and hydrogen... blah, blah, blah, is talking absolute nonsense and clearly has no understanding of standard electrolysis.

This phenomenom is a big deal, though you can guarantee that money will already have exchanged hands somewhere and in the near future someone will be making money from this discovery. So, when someone does figure out exactly what's happening, don't expect the science behind it to be brought immediately to public attention.

Things to note:

1. The RF frequency is not necessarily the key, as this frequency is simply that designated for medical and experimental purposes - so other frequencies may work equally as well.

2. The phenomenom only exhibits itself when water is doped with sodium chloride, though I feel it is likely that any metallic salt will work. Just as in standard electrolysis, I should imagine that the better the salt as an electrolyte, the greater the effect (the better the electrolyte, the more the compound dissociates in water into ions, the more ions available). I would therefore expect sodium and potassium hydroxide to work and be more effective.


The solution would contain H2O and the ions Cl- and Na+. The ions would be influenced into motion by the RF, but what happens after is where the mystery lies.

All of the information available to date only hypotheses what is occurring, so should be taken with a pinch of salt (no pun intended). Much of what has been said or written - even by respected scientists - and rather ignorantly to my mind, compares the phenomenom to standard electrolysis and so is clearly misleading. I have seen no recent papers detailing the actual electrochemistry involved - I don't think there have been any yet, and certainly none that have been published. If anyone knows better, please speak up.

The biggest hurdle in understanding just what is happening, and why even theorising is made difficult, is the fact that, unlike standard electrolysis, there are no electrodes too act as an ion charge exchange medium. In other words, even if the RF is causing the water molecule to dissociate into H+ and OH-, there is nowhere for these ions to exchange charges to become atoms and evolve as gases.

Only if you truly understand the science behind standard everyday electrolysis will you see the difficulty in explaining this phenomenom, and indeed exactly why it is so interesting!!

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Salt Water Fuel From Radio Waves
« Reply #24 on: May 05, 2009, 05:19:48 PM »
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Offline mscoffman

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Re: Salt Water Fuel From Radio Waves
« Reply #25 on: May 05, 2009, 06:13:24 PM »
The most detailed  paper released is here: http://www.rustumroy.com/    ..  This is a replication, but it includes nothing of value, imo.  No information about their  RF beam generator or polarization method, etc.

Thank you for that link..Very interesting stuff.

RF is rather simple. They give the frequency and the
wattage. As for the antenna design check the Kansius
Patent, it is important and should be in his patent.
There is; no final RF efficiency figures. The flame's
self-ignition could be designed into either the
antenna or the final RF amplifier or could be
spontaneous with high enough RF wattage.

The NaCl ions are known to "colorize" a flame and
some of the flames heat at it's base would end up
heating the liquid electrolyte so it is somewhat of
a complex system that could/should be broken apart
for further study.

You will notice I estimated 2KiloWatts RF input
and the RF was actually only 300Watts...potential
echoes of an overunity energy process.

:S:MarkCoffman
 

Offline Farrah Day

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Re: Salt Water Fuel From Radio Waves
« Reply #26 on: May 05, 2009, 08:59:50 PM »
I really would not dwell on OU, not only is it likely a waste of time, but at this stage it is not where the interest in this phenomenom lies.

As stated the frequency is an allocated frequency, and the power is likely misleading as the test tube itself only utilises a small area between the RF transmitter and receiver, so only sees a fraction of the power transmitted.  It would be logical to assume that an RF transmitter specifically designed to focus on the test tube alone could be made to be far more efficient. I'm not talking about OU, just much higher efficiency.

The metal salt ions clearly play a part in this process, but you cannot simply say that something happens.  Things only happen because of chemical or electrochemical reactions - and those reactions have to make sense and above all, balance out.

If the RF creates an electric field that causes the Na+ and Cl- ions to move, then this movement can be compared to the ion current drawn through a standard electrolyser.  The ion current itself serves to create collisions and interactions with the water molecule causing it to ionise into H+ and OH-, but unless these ions of water exchange charges quickly, they will recombine back into H2O. Hence no gas is evolved.

This is the same as applying an alternating voltage across a cell where the electrodes are insulated. The alternating voltage will be causing the water to ionise, but this ions are not utilised as they have no where to exchange charges, hence no gas is evolved.

To become atoms and evolve as gas, the ions must pick up and drop charges.

There is no obvious way that this can happen in the Kanzius burning saltwater phenomenom, so maybe something entirely different and to-date unknown is happening.

The first thing that has to be confirmed is what exactly is/are the gases being evolved? Is it oxygen and hydrogen? Just hydrogen? Is toxic chlorine being evolved?  The answer to this question alone would be very helpful.

One thing is for sure, we will have a lot of Na+, Cl-, H+ and OH- ions all intermingling, being pulsed into motion by the applied RF signal. And somewhere, somehow, two or more of these ions are being excited enough to exchange charges when they would not normally do so. Fascinating stuff!

Incidentally, is anyone else picking up a virus threat from this website every time it is accessed?
« Last Edit: May 05, 2009, 10:33:31 PM by Farrah Day »

 

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