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Gravity powered devices => Gravity powered devices => Topic started by: AquariuZ on April 03, 2009, 07:17:07 PM

Title: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 03, 2009, 07:17:07 PM
Greetings.

I was surprised to see a search on Abeling receiving "0" hits.

So, long overdue as he is about to go ballistic. (I think)

In November of 2007, an unknown dutch inventor made the rather outlandish claim he had found a way to rotate and accelerate a large wheel by using twin weights and earths gravity as only propulsion. At the time this was merely ruled a hoax.

See the dutch media (local) coverage here: Noord TV Report on Abeling device (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_0kYz4LhHw) Edit: added Broli´s version with subs

After that it has been very quiet around Sjack, until a few months back he created a company Abeling Beheer B.V. and started a website which explains his intentions:

"The construction of the first Weight Power Plant is expected in May 2009. The location for the construction of the first Weight Power Plant is probably going to be the province of Groningen, the Netherlands."


and

"The Fall and Lift control system. The invention of the "Fall and Lift control system" was done towards the end of 2006. The system transports, controls and transmits mass/weight to (for instance) a drive shaft. This system was the foundation for a machine that can work on weights/mass only, without adding any form of energy. It's purpose is to drive other objects."


Abeling claims he now partners with reputable businesses like Henkel and has all the approvals needed to go ahead with the project.

Link to the bi-lingual webpage: http://mooieenergie.nl (http://mooieenergie.nl)

He appears to be a cool customer, not at all media hungry, and has quietly filed his patents, raised capital and signed partner agreements.

Time will tell if he is 100% legit, his claim is that he will be able to provide power to the general public with at least a 50% discount against current regular provider rates. I think that still is too high, 95% would be better.

My questions to all in here are:

1) What do you think?
2) Have you heard anything about this?
3) If this is a "scam" why pursue it further now that he has all he needs?

My thoughts are that he truly has found a way to generate acceleration using weights and gravity only, or at least HE is 100% convinced.

I have sent him a message of encouragement, warning and a plea for full publication as soon as possible.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: broli on April 03, 2009, 07:27:02 PM
I believe him. But his method of selling it is beyond belief. He deserves the wealth but not like this.
What kind of bullshit change is this...50% cheaper LOL  ::). God some people are unbelievably greedy.

Edit: Just read his website at

http://mooieenergie.nl

Where it was planned to publish the theory behind it in mid march but looks like that got postponed. At least he's willing to share the knowledge so I have to take back what I just said.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 03, 2009, 07:36:22 PM
I believe him. But his method of selling it is beyond belief. He deserves the wealth but not like this.
What kind of bullshit change is this...50% cheaper LOL  ::). God some people are unbelievably greedy.

I think he was just being "conservative" and yes ofcourse in a monetary based economy everyone will want to make a "buck".

But I tell you what, he (from what I understand) is about to disclose his theory -hopefully in full- so nothing stands in our way to replicate the wheel for ourselves and benefit from it. There will be tons and tons of green waiting so he will not lose anything by disclosing.

The major theorum disclosure is overdue for about five days now, reminds me a bit of Steorn... But in fairness I value him higher than Sean McCarthy at this moment in time. I cannot explain it, but there is something about him that makes me (want to) believe...

Adding: appearantly the core system will be made out of glass. How interesting...
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: broli on April 03, 2009, 09:09:08 PM
Oke I went through the trouble of adding subtitles to the video so other can understand it. Even though little of use is said.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_0kYz4LhHw
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: ramset on April 03, 2009, 10:36:17 PM
Broli
Thanks for taking the time to do that

Chet
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 03, 2009, 11:18:00 PM
Oke I went through the trouble of adding subtitles to the video so other can understand it. Even though little of use is said.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_0kYz4LhHw

Well done Broli, I wasn´t aware of the fact you are dutch too..

Thanks
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: broli on April 03, 2009, 11:24:01 PM
Well done Broli, I wasn´t aware of the fact you are dutch too..

Thanks

Thanks, and I'm not dutch  ;).
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: hartiberlin on April 03, 2009, 11:36:20 PM
Many thanks for the translation Broli.
Looks very interesting.

But it already sucks, that he wants first to patent it.

Probably the delay comes from the patent process and I guess
he will not get any patent on it,cause it will be stamped Perpetual Motion Machine,
which will not get him any patent.

So it would be much wiser just to publish it all freely and make
money with selling books about the invention.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 03, 2009, 11:37:38 PM
Thanks, and I'm not dutch  ;).

Which makes it even more impressive...  ;D

One thing though: at 01:09 he says:
"Deze ontdekking had in mijn ogen 200 jaar geleden of misschien al eerder plaats kunnen vinden"

Which translates to:
"This discovery could have been made 200 years ago or maybe even earlier"

Not to:
"Some 200 years ago this invention has been found as well"

Just to be exact... I have modified my initial post to refer to your posting, thanks again.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 03, 2009, 11:43:53 PM
But it already sucks, that he wants first to patent it.

Probably the delay comes from the patent process and I guess
he will not get any patent on it,cause it will be stamped Perpetual Motion Machine,
which will not get him any patent.

So it would be much wiser just to publish it all freely and make
money with selling books about the invention.

Regards, Stefan.

From what I understood he is patenting several things, one of them being the "Fall and Lift control system"...

Quote
With the development of the "Dual Lift System" in 2008, a disturbance in the system's balance was removed by adjusting the trajectory of the bodies in the system. This made it possible to produce a system with the following advantages:

    *
      Placement below the ground / sealevel
    *
      Technically easy to understand
    * Independent of any energy source
    * Versatile
    * Reliable, manageable
    * Multiple units can be linked

Some applications for this system:

    * Generators
    * Driving systems (e.g. for ships)
    * Transport systems  (e.g. for water)
    * Weight Power Plant

The current objective is to produce power/energy with a new company by building and managing Weight Power Plants.
The Weight Power Plants will be located in closed bunkers wherever power is needed. It is easy to adapt the output of the system to local needs. States, cities and towns can all have their own power plant.

The advantages of this system are:

    * No air- or waterpolution
    * No horizon polution: placement undergrond possible
    * No disturbing noise
    * No blackouts during maintenance
    * Safe

From what I understand his intentions are indeed to release the complete theory, I would be highly surprised if he would not release it because of patent failure, seeing as he already secured several. (need to research to find them in which case I wil post them).

Quote
Progress in launching the Weight Power Plant:

    * We have permission to construct and exploit Weight Power Plants in The Netherlands. We can use the existing infrastructure.
    * There is foreign interest in the Weight Power Plant and the watermanagement of Sjack Abeling .
    * Patents have been filed or are pending.
    * Applied techniques are currently being tested at Henkel's.
    * A test system is being prepared.

How can they deny him a patent if the thing works? He should go ahead anyway as he appearantly has convinced a legion of partners and is on the eve of building his first plant in Groningen.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: khabe on April 04, 2009, 12:02:10 AM
Hm,
Well - big garage and eery plywood wheels again and again ...
But have you seen it works?
Nimble mind speaks - it does not - just no way 8)
Show us at least one working unit,
No cheap tricks, no tawdry art of cinematography - just a working machine,
cheers,
khabe
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: infringer on April 04, 2009, 12:16:09 AM
Yes indeed very hot topic as of late these gravitational do dads...

I would sure like to see one with my own two eyes functioning as well.

But... either way I am sure in some way we can increase wind turbine efficiency with the study of gravity wheels so whats the worse that can come of these claims ...

Gimme wind and solar or else I'll second guess the method for power generation for now and until proven otherwise that is where I am investing strictly wind and solar.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 04, 2009, 12:29:53 AM
I think I found the particular patent, but do not know how to access to actual data. (maybe subscribers only)

If someone has access to patents, here the info I have:

Quote
  Energie-omzettingsinrichting.       
        Uitvinder:  ABELING JACOBUS JOHANNES [NL]      Aanvrager:  ABELING BEHEER B V [NL]
        EC:      IPC:   F03G7/10; F03G7/00
        
Informatie over publicatie:      NL1034252  (C1)  —  2009-02-16

Octrooinummer:      NL1034252 (C1)
Publicatiedatum:    2009-02-16
Uitvinder(s):    ABELING JACOBUS JOHANNES [NL]
Aanvrager(s):    ABELING BEHEER B V [NL]
Classificatie:    
- internationaal:    F03G7/10; F03G7/00
- europees:    
Aanvraagnummer:    NL20071034252 20070813
Prioriteitsnummer(s):    NL20071034252 20070813

filed 16/02/09, I have no idea how to access the actual application though

edit: (C1) stands for third level application initial was filed on 13/08/2007

Anyway, there you have it. Not much more to say but wait and see how it turns out. I hope he answers my emails.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: broli on April 04, 2009, 12:52:40 AM
The patent is indeed not digitized yet.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: ramset on April 04, 2009, 12:54:09 AM
Aqauariuz

User Pese has many skills in this patent research ,why don't you send him a PM
Chet
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Alexioco on April 04, 2009, 01:19:55 AM
This is really interesting, but its anoying how these things always get posponed, couldnt he show footage of it turning with the mechanism hidden? I'm taking this with a pinch of salt i think...

Alex
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: hartiberlin on April 04, 2009, 02:09:29 AM
The patent is indeed not digitized yet.

Yes, it seems it is not yet published, only this :

http://v3.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?CC=NL&NR=1034252C1&KC=C1&FT=D&date=20090216&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP

Regards. Stefan.
Title: A dutch contest...
Post by: iacob alex on April 04, 2009, 04:33:53 AM

   ...between a past time thought-experiment(Simon Stevin -1586) and a present time real-experiment(Abeling Johannes-2008).

      The one and the other,as Dutchmen,play the same game with a serial of spheres in a loop-file.

      Long time ago(1586,"The Art of Weighting"),Stevin expressed with a concise design( a triangle/two different slopes+a "wreath of spheres") ,the unthinkable,unrealizable possibility to get a self-motion from gravity.

      Just now (2008,"Dual Lift System"),Abeling announces with a similar concise design,we can see on the front page of his web-site(a coronal,loop,wreath of spheres),the contrary:a possibility to get self-motion from the gravity power.

      So,here is an  idealistic-match between the past and the present.

                    All the Bests! / Alex
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AB Hammer on April 04, 2009, 04:58:19 AM
Greetings All

 Unless some proof is shown. Even with a covered wheel. I see nothing to get excited about at this time. For there is no evidence for or against it. It could be someone taking a lead from another from Ireland. Allot of talk and no proof.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: persume on April 04, 2009, 06:50:38 AM
Several people need to contact the companies he says he is partnering with and ask them in emails if they are really in business negotiations with him.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: khabe on April 04, 2009, 09:00:47 AM
http://peswiki.com/energy/Directory:Gravity_Motors
What is happend with this one?
G Force Rotational machine demo video posted - Since 1993, an Armenian inventor has been demonstrating his patented machine that harnesses static gravitational energy to turn a 3 meter diameter wheel that turns a 300KVA electric generator. Just release the brake, and off it goes. Commercial version expected in about a year. (PESWiki; Jan. 4, 2008)
or this:
Karra Green Energy's Gravitational Power Generation - Company from Syria has a patented static gravity motor design that they say could address the world's renewable energy needs, providing 24/7 energy up to 4 megawatts in size. We found out about them through their booth at the WIREC conference in DC last week. (PESWiki; Mar. 14, 2008)
Every time the same scenario - allot of promisings mixed with caginess ... and then? - NOTHING!
I do not make bones about - I dont believe any GravityWheel will ever work without external collaborative - it is just impossible,
but I believe that some another significant discovery will rise up from, like some kind of selfbalancing system ... or like useful gizmo for another machines.
When someone is building gravity machine then at least by my opinion it must to be built as finest mechanical art, as precise as possible, used the best of materials, as low as possible friction,.
the best of bearings, no slack somewhere, no flutterings, no crooked shafts ...  not from plywood and furniture fixtures ...
regards,
khabe
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 04, 2009, 10:27:45 AM
Every time the same scenario - allot of promisings mixed with caginess ... and then? - NOTHING!

My biggest fear is the "sell out", the most common of cop (no pun) outs where a holding buys up a patent for a large sum of money, like has been happening with almost all innovative battery patents to prevent true electric transportation (can't stop it anyway)...

If left a choice I think almost anyone would choose money & life over fame & possible death. Look what happened to Jan Sloot, another dutchman. He created a new code base for compression purposes which was not based on the binary system (but could interface with it) and was able to compress digital media almost infinitly, fitting 16 dvd films on a single 64Kb chipcard with a single repository base of 370Mb, which could be used for any DVD. He died of a cardiac arrest one day before divulging the coding system. Needless to say he would have instantly obsoleted most established IT technology with this new code base, such a shame. Maybe a scam, maybe not.

If it makes you feel better I think Abeling is onto something, he is a real inventor who has worked on commission for many large companies like Shell & Philips, and holds several (non energy related) patents as inventor to his name. I can see no reason whatsoever why he lie about his weight system, unless he found out in a later stage that he or his measurements were wrong and he is now doing damage control.

As stated, this is a cool customer, anyone from the Netherlands will tell you that people from where he is from are not the screaming claims type but rather moderate and introvert.

I believe he believes he has something and for now that is good enough.

If anyone has ties to Henkel (German company?) they might try dropping a line and asking about a partnership with Abeling Beheer B.V. but honestly I do not see the point as they will not be allowed to talk about it under a standard non disclosure agreement or NDA.

I will try and get Abeling online in here but he is probably rather busy right now...
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AB Hammer on April 04, 2009, 02:37:03 PM

If it makes you feel better I think Abeling is onto something, he is a real inventor who has worked on commission for many large companies like Shell & Philips, and holds several (non energy related) patents as inventor to his name.



AquariuZ

Large OIL companies like Shell & Philips?   "BIG RED FLAG"!!  ::)
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: persume on April 04, 2009, 08:46:02 PM
"As stated, this is a cool customer, anyone from the Netherlands will tell you that people from where he is from are not the screaming claims type but rather moderate and introvert."

Yeah I don't know where your getting that from but people are people no matter where they are from. I've worked for a Dutchman for a few years, he was anything but what you are saying and had no problem pulling some dirty moves in his younger days.

Also I did a patent check using his name and the only thing that comes up is that one patent that is still in standby status. If anyone has found anything different please post.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 04, 2009, 08:48:09 PM

AquariuZ

Large OIL companies like Shell & Philips?   "BIG RED FLAG"!!  ::)

I really find no reason to hold that against him... on the contrary, it validates his expertise.
Again, why fake all this if you are a (appearantly) reputable inventor?

No response from Abeling Beheer as of yet by the way.
Found his phonenumber but not sure if he would appreciate my invasion of privacy.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 04, 2009, 08:55:39 PM
Yeah I don't know where your getting that from but people are people no matter where they are from. I've worked for a Dutchman for a few years, he was anything but what you are saying and had no problem pulling some dirty moves in his younger days.

I am refering to people like Sjack Abeling who are from the province of Friesland, in the north of the Netherlands. Sjack is from Ter Apel, which is to the north-east of Hoogeveen.

As a dutchman I will allow myself to presume to know the typically accepted type casting for people from that area plus I have worked with several of them in the past.

Friezen are cool customers.

The typical dutchman who is the opposite of a "Fries" would probably be from the Zuid- or Noord-Holland provinces or the "Randstad", with some examples being, The Hague, Amsterdam & Rotterdam.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: persume on April 04, 2009, 09:11:53 PM
And I will tell AquariuZ "the Dutchman" that yes, the person I did work for did at one time live in Amsterdam, where he was originally from I don't know, but again, people are people and there is always someone in some location trying to pull a move. Always. So how about some links to those other patents you said he has because I haven't found any.

Here's some questions in the meantime. Why is he the only one who has seen the machine working, ( that's what the video says) and why does he say, we, and he says it several times when he talks about the power output and the fear of trying to contol it? So on the one hand it states only he, but he contradicts that by saying we.
Why hasn't he posted a covered up version just to show it moving?
And asking those companies only if the've heard of him is in no way hurting any supposed NDA they might have signed with him. I'll also point you to the fact that his wording in association with those companies has in no way made him liable for anything should he be a fake. He does not say those companies have a signed agreement with him, he does not say they know of his invention. All he says is they are the companies that will supply such and such methods and parts. He also says the one company is looking into tecniques, which is so vague it could mean anything. Like Steorn he has links that have nothing to do with the tecnology, and has a section where you can link your organization to him if you want. This suspicious because it can make him look more valid with other real companies and organizations seemingly holding his hand.

AquariuZ can you please post up the original website that video came from?
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: broli on April 04, 2009, 09:25:57 PM
Here's some questions in the meantime. Why is he the only one who has seen the machine working, ( that's what the video says) and why does he say, we, and he says it several times when he talks about the power output and the fear of trying to contol it? So on the one hand it states only he, but he contradicts that by saying we.


The translations is correct. This bothered me as well.

Your other questions are a bit useless.Why do you think we should justify his claim. His email is known please send those questions to him and if he responds share it  ;).
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: persume on April 04, 2009, 09:40:19 PM
No question is useless Broli. I want to know, I am asking. Simply questions, should be simple answers, unless they really aren't so simple. The answers or lack of answers will reveil a lot
Do you know where the original source for the video is? And where the other patents that I can't find are?
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: broli on April 04, 2009, 09:42:52 PM
No question is useless Broli. I want to know, I am asking. Simply questions, should be simple answers, unless they really aren't so simple.
Do you know where the original source for the video is?

Here's the source:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjSFjfWy1h4

You are allowed to know but you are asking these questions to the wrong people. We are not his associates. We know as much as you.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: persume on April 04, 2009, 09:45:58 PM
Actually Broli it is AquariuZ who said he had other patents, I think it is up to AquariuZ to answer.
 8)
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: broli on April 04, 2009, 09:50:09 PM
http://v3.espacenet.com/searchResults?locale=en_EP&ST=quick&IA=ABELING+JACOBUS+JOHANNES&compact=false&DB=EPODOC

If I can do it in less than a minute then you sure can as well? But I guess ignorance will never dissapear  ;D.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: persume on April 04, 2009, 10:10:13 PM
No need for a cheap remark Broli. Thanks though, I did try by using his last name several times and nothing came up.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: persume on April 04, 2009, 10:17:20 PM
Okay then can you show me how it was discovered that he did commercial work for Shell and Phillips?
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 04, 2009, 10:37:57 PM
Okay then can you show me how it was discovered that he did commercial work for Shell and Phillips?

You know what you are probably right. I just tried finding the complete list and could not find it, I made a mistake while looking for JACOBUS and got hits for SHELL INT and PHILIPS ELECTR. an oversight, sorry.

Here now the complete list of worldwide patents where JOHANNES JACOBUS ABELING is the inventor:

Quote
1                Energie-omzettingsinrichting.         in mijn octrooilijst   
        Uitvinder:  ABELING JACOBUS JOHANNES [NL]      Aanvrager:  ABELING BEHEER B V [NL]
        EC:      IPC:   F03G7/10; F03G7/00
        
Informatie over publicatie:      NL1034252  (C1)  —  2009-02-16
2       Light guide plate for e.g. LCD screen, has two patterns of V shaped light reflecting grooves in its front side    in mijn octrooilijst 
        Uitvinder:  ABELING JACOBUS JOHANNES [NL]      Aanvrager:  PPWS B V [NL]
        EC:   G02B6/00L    IPC:   G02B6/00; G02B6/00; (IPC1-7): G02B6/00
        
Informatie over publicatie:      NL1027958  (C2)  —  2006-07-06
3       LIGHT BOX AND METHOD FOR PLACING A LIGHT BOX IN A PORTABLE POSITION    in mijn octrooilijst 
        Uitvinder:  ABELING JACOBUS JOHANNES [NL]      Aanvrager:  VBF GROEP B V [NL] ; ABELING JACOBUS JOHANNES [NL]
        EC:   G09F13/04    IPC:   G09F13/04; G09F13/04; (IPC1-7): G09F13/04
        
Informatie over publicatie:      WO0209078  (A1)  —  2002-01-31
4       Arrangement for positioning a picture to be shown against a background    in mijn octrooilijst 
        Uitvinder:  ABELING JACOBUS JOHANNES [NL]      Aanvrager:  JACOBUS JOHANNES ABELING [NL]
        EC:   G09F21/04    IPC:   G09F21/04; G09F21/00; (IPC1-7): G09F21/04
        
Informatie over publicatie:      NL9400707  (A)  —  1995-12-01

Four patents, including the Energy Conversion Method.

I remind you that that patent has a C1 classification which is a third stage status meaning that there were two previous stages of which the initially filed patent was in 2007. Hope this now settles it. This does not diminish any of the claims made nor negates them.

I understand the frustration but as Broli said you know as much as I do with regards to this project. The fact he used "we" does not really mean anything, come on now guys, he probably worked on this with an assistant or his family for all we know. The generalization of "noone has seen it but him" should not exclude the & his own.

Do not shoot the messenger, please be patient, I am as impatient as anyone else for him to put up.

I am glad I posted the initial thread because clearly noone has even heard of this.

The original source of the Youtube video is TV Noord, a local news media channel based near Amsterdam.

Waiting for response, or someone in here with more knowledge about the project or an affiliation to one of the claimed partners on the site mooieenergie.nl for verification.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 04, 2009, 11:06:40 PM
For what it is worth, I have just sent the following message to Henkel Benelux:

Quote
Goodday,

Mr. Sjack Abeling of Abeling Beheer B.V. has referred on his website mooieenergie.nl to Henkel as partner in relation to the "Weight Power Plant" project of Abeling Beheer in the Netherlands.

On this website the following claim is made:

"The construction of the first "Weight Power Plant" is expected to commence in May 2009.
The location of the first Weight Power Plant is probably going to be the province of Groningen

Partners:

    * Abeling Beheer B.V. partners with Henkel B.V. http://www.henkel.com/. The system is mainly constructed out of glass. In colloboration with Henkel the Glas AanHecht company will provide innovative glueing methods for the building of the power plant."

Can you please confirm this?

I am trying to determine if this project is some kind of joke or if it is a serious project.

Thank you in advance for your attention.

With kind regards,

(signed)

I will post any replies here.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AB Hammer on April 05, 2009, 03:40:52 AM
You know what you are probably right. I just tried finding the complete list and could not find it, I made a mistake while looking for JACOBUS and got hits for SHELL INT and PHILIPS ELECTR. an oversight, sorry.

Here now the complete list of worldwide patents where JOHANNES JACOBUS ABELING is the inventor:

Four patents, including the Energy Conversion Method.

I remind you that that patent has a C1 classification which is a third stage status meaning that there were two previous stages of which the initially filed patent was in 2007. Hope this now settles it. This does not diminish any of the claims made nor negates them.

I understand the frustration but as Broli said you know as much as I do with regards to this project. The fact he used "we" does not really mean anything, come on now guys, he probably worked on this with an assistant or his family for all we know. The generalization of "noone has seen it but him" should not exclude the & his own.

Do not shoot the messenger, please be patient, I am as impatient as anyone else for him to put up.

I am glad I posted the initial thread because clearly noone has even heard of this.

The original source of the Youtube video is TV Noord, a local news media channel based near Amsterdam.

Waiting for response, or someone in here with more knowledge about the project or an affiliation to one of the claimed partners on the site mooieenergie.nl for verification.

AquariuZ

 So this seems like he is trying to get patent without a competed design? This would be another red flag to me. Or there should be some design to look at if completed, I would think.

Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: ramset on April 05, 2009, 04:05:01 AM
AB
Your first red flag was hauled down above,, Shell etc...B S

Your second seems to not follow the evolution and additions to patents ,ie  a work improved or expounded upon by the inventor

Whom as I understand will be sharing this info publicly

Chet
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: hansvonlieven on April 05, 2009, 10:48:26 AM
As a New Yorker would say: The Dutchman is pulling his putz.

Hans von Lieven
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AB Hammer on April 05, 2009, 01:32:01 PM
AB
Your first red flag was hauled down above,, Shell etc...B S

Your second seems to not follow the evolution and additions to patents ,ie  a work improved or expounded upon by the inventor

Whom as I understand will be sharing this info publicly

Chet

Chet

Well that's fine with me. But when things are uncertain when people say things without red flagging People fall into things like hype and fraud. For instance there have been thousands of frauds and no runners. This whole string looks to be a setup for possible fraud. Just to much hype and no evidence. Not even a covered wheel either started on its own or a slight push with an acceleration. Without this there is nothing to even consider if a working device even exist. I await the public and proper evidence. 

PS in the US shell is a gas co.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: dutchy1966 on April 05, 2009, 03:06:57 PM
Hi everyone,

On Abelings website i found a short description of the principle he uses. Seems like is harnessing the centrifugal force that the weights are creating. I've translated the part below.
I hope it helps.

From his website:

V: Waar komt de extra energie vandaan in uw systeem?
Q: Where does the excess energy in your system come from?

A: De gewichten worden per twee toegepast, een vallend/duw gewicht en een gewicht dat omhoog gebracht moet worden. Door de vinding van het duo hefkrachtsysteem ondervindt het vallend/duw gewicht nagenoeg geen hinder van het gewicht dat omhooggebracht moet worden.
Linksboven in het systeem ontstaat een versnelling van het gewicht (zoals bij kogel stoten). Het gewicht verplaatst zich hier sneller dan het systeem waarin het zich bevind, waardoor het systeem op deze plaats (rechtsboven in het systeem) een duw krijgt, want het systeem vangt het gewicht weer op. De route van de gebruikte gewichten in het systeem wordt vooraf bepaald. Daardoor bevinden de gewichten zich altijd in een vaste positie ten opzichte van elkaar, zodat het gewicht dat omhoog gebracht moet worden minder weerstand uitoefend op het vallend/duw gewicht. Dit zorgt ervoor dat het systeem vanuit iedere stand/positie begint te draaien. De extra kracht wordt linksonder in het systeem gerealiseerd en bovenin het systeem overgebracht op het systeem zelf waardoor versnelling (extra energie) ontstaat. Wanneer het systeem het gewicht niet zou opvangen dan zou het gewicht met hoge snelheid wegvliegen.

A: The weights are applied in pairs, one falling/pushing weight and a weight that has to be lifted. Because of the invention of the "twin liftingsystem" the falling/pushing weight is hardly hindered by the weight that has to be lifted.
In the upperleft of the system an acceleration of the weight is created (like with shot put). At this popint the weight moves faster than the system it is part of. The system gets pushed in this area (upper right area) because it has to 'catch' the accelerated weight. The route the weights take in the system is predetermined, that way the weights are always aligned with eachother in a way that the weight that has to be raised, puts less resistance onto the falling/pushing weight. This accomplishes that the system starts rotating from any position. The excess power is realised in the bottom left end of the system and in the top system transferred to the system itself, by which acceleration (= excess energy) is created.
If the system wouldn't 'catch' the weight it would leave the system at high velocity.     


Regards,

Dutchy  (and yes... I'm Dutch. )
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: broli on April 05, 2009, 05:24:15 PM
Dutchy your effort is appreciated but his website is already translated to English  ;D.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 05, 2009, 06:11:03 PM
Dutchy your effort is appreciated but his website is already translated to English  ;D.

Great translation though, so thanks  ;)
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Mark69 on April 05, 2009, 06:15:32 PM
That sounds like it is possible then.  If you think of an aircraft wing, it is also somewhat "D" shaped, this allows the air on the top of the wing to have to speed up to flow as fast as the air on the bottom (since the distance is greater).  The faster flow causes the pressure to be reduced on top allowing the air on the bottom to push up on the wing to generate lift.  I am not saying his weights are generating lift, up if using the same principle with the speed sounds feasible.

Mark
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 05, 2009, 06:17:01 PM
Chet

This whole string looks to be a setup for possible fraud. Just to much hype and no evidence. Not even a covered wheel either started on its own or a slight push with an acceleration. Without this there is nothing to even consider if a working device even exist. I await the public and proper evidence. 

AB, I would not call it hype at all, it is just a website. There are no link farms, no media coverage, nothing. I found it by accident Googling Abeling. Not much Hype, he just gives a current status report.

If he has not contacted me by tomorrow night I will call his company on Tuesday, because I feel like a child who was promised some candy and is then told "maybe tomorrow".

I want my candy.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 05, 2009, 06:31:18 PM
Just another interesting thing to note: The water management application.

Quote
The invention of the Weight Power Plant (In Dutch: "Gewicht Energie Centrale") provides us with a system for the generation of ultra durable energy. As physicists claim there is no such thing as "free energy", we have to assume that the power/energy generated by the system is provided by the earth's gravity. The system can be used to generate electricity by driving a generator, but it can also be used, for example, to transport huge amounts of water to elevated terrain.

Abeling Beheer has been given permission by the Dutch government to construct Weight Power Plants in The Netherlands, and it has been given permission to connect these plants to the current infrastructure. The system does not cause any damage to the environment so there is a major chance that Abeling Beheer will become the largest producer of energy both inside and outside Europe. Abeling Beheer will use the name "Mooie Energie" (Beautiful Energy). We hope to establish a solid base for sustained growth in 2009!

Water management comes second. Sjack Abeling considers:

    * Fresh water management, e.g. for producing fresh water out of sea water (desalination).
    * Seawater management, e.g. for moving huge amounts of water.
    * Groundwater management, e.g. to manage the water table.

So sure this is kinda hypie when he claims that there is a major chance that he becomes the largest producer of energy in Europe. But if the Fall & Lift works like he describes he will be unless he is stopped.

 ENERGY  from  GRAVITY 

Let it be true
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: ramset on April 05, 2009, 06:35:07 PM
Aqua
he makes reference to having Gov't approval [seems very hard to get]
Perhaps like in the USA [gov't approval]this is public knowledge,  an EPA or DEC ETC... equivalent in the Netherlands
More likely to make some phone calls for an article /research  you are writing [may be Jib guy or Esaroucho [writers of articles for the FE movement[ESA is in Finland]should get involved
 
Chet
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 05, 2009, 06:49:27 PM
Aqua
he makes reference to having Gov't approval [seems very hard to get]
Perhaps like in the USA [gov't approval]this is public knowledge,  an EPA or DEC ETC... equivalent in the Netherlands
More likely to make some phone calls for an article /research  you are writing [may be Jib guy or Esaroucho [writers of articles for the FE movement[ESA is in Finland]should get involved
 
Chet


Yeah, good point. In this case he would need approval from VROM (The Ministry of Housing, Spatial Planning and the Environment (Ministerie van Volkshuisvesting, Ruimtelijke Ordening en Milieu).

On it, will ask the same question as Henkel.

Edit: Done. I have launched an official request to VROM. If they deny I can launch a Wob which is comparable to a FOIA request.

We will know in a few days either way.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: ramset on April 05, 2009, 07:32:05 PM
Aqua
very nice ,its hard to work with Gov't and perpetrate a fraud [unless you an inside guy/crook}
you could also querie the local building dept and get in touch with the inspecter /engineering firm overseeing the project

Chet
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Grimer on April 05, 2009, 08:44:42 PM
I think this is entirely possible. Mass (inertia) is a property of matter, not matter itself. If you speed up a body its mass (inertia) increases, not the number of atoms, the amount of matter in the body.

Also consider rotation. If you fill a black box with running gyros then by fixing them or allowing them to be free within gimbals you can make enormous changes to the rotational inertia - and if you didn't know what was inside the box and thought of it as a inert lump you would think that its "mass" had increased.

When I was in British Government Scientific Civil Service I wrote a paper which pointed this out.Needless to say it got me into a heap of trouble ::) - as you would expect. My appeal against being suppressed went all the way up to the head of the Home Civil Service, Sir Robin Butler, (now Lord Butler) and I'm probably breaking the Official Secrets Act by telling you this - but I'm past caring.  8)
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: ramset on April 05, 2009, 08:50:00 PM
GRIMER

Seems you are not alone in your feeling

Chet

Noord TV Report on Abeling device

http://mooieenergie.nl    
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Grimer on April 05, 2009, 09:12:00 PM
GRIMER

Seems you are not alone in your feeling

Chet

Noord TV Report on Abeling device

http://mooieenergie.nl    

Thanks for the link, very interesting - and as he says, it could have been discovered hundreds of years ago - but wasn't. Bit like my discovery of the equations of state for water vapour.

http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/strange.html (http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/strange.html)

They could have been discovered early in the last century. All the data was freely available in the International Critical Tables but no one looked at it in the right way cos they where hogtied by erroneous theories.

Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Grimer on April 05, 2009, 09:34:07 PM
Below are a couple of relevant paragraphs I've copied from
Iterative Hierarchical Mechanics N103/87

==============================================================
These equations may be interpreted as folows. Increase in the speed of an inertial body relative to its environment  (characterized by an environmental speed) is accompanied by a tranformation of the internal velocity, v, into an external velocity u. In other words the external kinestic energy is derived from the internal kinetic energy, or in simpler hierarchical terms, exteranl motion is derived from internal motion. Clearly this is a more mundane and intelligible explanation with the change in inertia with increasing speed than that normally given, an explanation moreover that is fully in accordance with the behaviour of a substance at a higher scale as exempified by the kinetic theory of heat.

In effect inertial substances are seen as active, not passive; as containing servo-mechanisms, force amplifiers. The energy put into accelerating a body is merely a control energy which is proportional to, but at non-relativistic speeds, a minute fraction of the total energy needed to overcome inertial effects. As the speed of the body reaches speeds comparable with the characteristic field speed the servo-mechanisms become less and less effective until at the speed of light all the energy has to be applied from external sources.
==============================================================

Cheeky? No 'alf. If true it tears the guts out of modern physics.

But a gravity mill will do that on its own.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: infringer on April 06, 2009, 03:32:43 AM
all that I can say is if you take a look at this picture

http://mooieenergie.nl/images/stories/ab3.png

And you remember the sword of god and what we were trying to accomplish with the rods ...

This is the same exact pattern that Archer Quinn was trying to show us so if you believe this deal or if it comes true then Archer Quinn is not such a quack after all cause this was the design in which Dusty, redriderno22, and a few others were working on....

Done with just weights well... There you have it  it should work with the rods then as well or I would think a slight modification would provide the same results.

I'll stick to solar and wind power for now but keep pluggin away for those not interested in tried and true technology.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 06, 2009, 05:31:16 AM
Done with just weights well... There you have it  it should work with the rods then as well or I would think a slight modification would provide the same results.

Not just weights, the pairs are part of an encapsulating system.

From the FAQ:

"The weights are applied two by two: one weight is pushing/falling, the other one has to be lifted. Due to the invention of the dual lifting system , the falling/pushing weight will hardly be hindered by the weight that has to be lifted.

In the top left of the system the weight is accelerated (like with shot put). The weight is moving faster than the system, and as the system catches the weight it is propelled forward. The path of the weights in the system is determined up front so the weights are always in a fixed position relative to each other and that will reduce the drag of the lifted weight on the falling/pushing weight. The system will start rotating from any position. Extra force is generated in the lower left of the system and on top it is transferred to the system itself, generating the extra energy. If the system would fail to catch the propelled weight, the weight would be ejected from the system with force."
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Grimer on April 06, 2009, 07:06:09 AM
I think he was just being "conservative" and yes of course in a monetary based economy everyone will want to make a "buck".

But I tell you what, he (from what I understand) is about to disclose his theory -hopefully in full- so nothing stands in our way to replicate the wheel for ourselves and benefit from it. There will be tons and tons of green waiting so he will not lose anything by disclosing.

The major theorem disclosure is overdue for about five days now, reminds me a bit of Steorn... But in fairness I value him higher than Sean McCarthy at this moment in time. I cannot explain it, but there is something about him that makes me (want to) believe...

Adding: apparently the core system will be made out of glass. How interesting...

I had to search all the way back through the thread to find this reference to glass.

Why glass?

Well, if you are polarizing inertia (=mass) with big flywheels then you have to make them out of something strong. Glass fibre is strong and that would explain the presence of Henkel on this project cos they make the adhesives that would be the other component of the flywheel.

Also, glass is an insulator so you don't have electrons sloshing about wasting energy

Some Australian did some work on rotating metal spheres falling under gravity but the results he got were barely significant. I shall have to look him up.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: hansvonlieven on April 06, 2009, 07:32:56 AM
Henkel is a German company primarily a manufacturer of washing powder (Persil) and detergents with glue and fibreglass manufacturing companies bought in over the years. Sales €13.07 billion (2007)

I seriously doubt their involvement with a backyard enterprise of this sort and the ramshackle prototypes shown in the video.

The guy's approach is clearly visible, it is an old approach towards a Bessler wheel that has never worked.

Just another scam I'm afraid, I will be most surprised if it is more than that.

Hans von Lieven
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: hansvonlieven on April 06, 2009, 07:36:23 AM

Some Australian did some work on rotating metal spheres falling under gravity but the results he got were barely significant. I shall have to look him up.

@ Grimer,

I think you are referring to Bruce de Palma, an American, who did work in that area in New Zealand.

Hans von Lieven
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Grimer on April 06, 2009, 07:44:05 AM
@ Grimer,

I think you are referring to Bruce de Palma, an American, who did work in that area in New Zealand.

Hans von Lieven

http://www.angelfire.com/on/GEAR2000/DePalma1.html

Well done. You beat me to it. ;D

Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Grimer on April 06, 2009, 07:50:27 AM
Henkel is a German company primarily a manufacturer of washing powder (Persil) and detergents with glue and fibreglass manufacturing companies bought in over the years. Sales €13.07 billion (2007)

I seriously doubt their involvement with a backyard enterprise of this sort and the ramshackle prototypes shown in the video.

The guy's approach is clearly visible, it is an old approach towards a Bessler wheel that has never worked.

Just another scam I'm afraid, I will be most surprised if it is more than that.

Hans von Lieven

I agree that the video is not encouraging - but let's not be snobbish. Mylow wasn't very encouraging either but he had obviously done his homework on HJ.

As far as Henkel being involved I thought I read somewhere in this thread or the links that they were.
I'll have to see if I can find it.

http://mooieenergie.nl/index.php/en/home/1-bedrijfsinformatie/5-glasaanhecht

Found it. :)
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: hansvonlieven on April 06, 2009, 11:15:27 AM
That's what he is claiming. I think that is crap too.

Hans von Lieven
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: spinner on April 06, 2009, 01:18:40 PM
"Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant"
Hmm, it sounds like "A Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow"... Nice!

It would be wonderful if it's true. If we forget about all the theoretical problems which make such a discovery very ... questionable.
Ah, never mind. It's just a conventional stuff mantra, not very usefull on the sites like this... Who really cares...
...
As always, the real proof is still missing, no? Something which undoubtedly works, or at least shows a real possibility...

It's good to see that inventor speaks very optimistically about his invention. How all the energy problems will be solved, how his company  will be soon the biggest provider of energy, how the prices for electricity will drop for at least 50%(lol), etc, ...

I'd say - good luck! We all hope that this will indeed be a successful project!
.....

But (as usually), there are some things which makes me "a little suspicious" wrt this claim...

For instance,
Quote
Abeling Beheer has been given permission by the Dutch government to construct Weight Power Plants in The Netherlands,
and it has been given permission to connect these plants to the current infrastructure.
The system does not cause any damage to the environment so there is a major chance that Abeling Beheer will become
the largest producer of energy both inside and outside Europe. Abeling Beheer will use the name "Mooie Energie" (Beautiful Energy).
We hope to establish a solid base for sustained growth in 2009!

How is it that the Dutch government already issued a permission for building/implementing the "Weight Power Plants" ??? Supposedly, inventor is the only one who knows how his invention works. This is a revolutionary concept, with unknown consequences...
What if it somehow affects the Earth gravity/spinning? What if it drains some other, unknown energy source? What if it's making a trans-dimensional breach, a gate, wormhole.. A tiny black hole (gravity condensation) on the other site of our planet? (Close to where Hans lives?)  ;D

So, how is the government so sure, that this gravitational plant isn't going to cause some weird events? Giving a permission without any serious (scientific, official) tests being made? That would be something unimaginable....
...

According to the inventor, there are "enormous forces" involved in the process... So, what kind of glass (weights, structure?) is suitable for such tasks?
Any gravity wheel inventor normally uses strong - dense and cheap materials... As high as possible specific weight together with as low as possible price...
It's up to you whether you'll use rocks,.. canisters filled with water,sand.. concrete,.. glass,.. brass,.. iron,.. lead,.. or even gold, platinum (depends how big investments you got),.. osmium, tungsten...

I'd use glass (and other transparent plastic materials) for building a proof of a concept (demo) device..
Small power, no hiding,... As transparent as possible... Either way, it would never satisfy the skeptics... Hehe...
....

Ah yes, "one of the 10 devices will power 17,000 homes" (i hope i got this right?)....  This means 17000? Uau...
(btw, comma is a decimal sign in Europe, does that means "only" 17 homes)? Still impressed!
With 1kW/home (a very optimistic estimate) average power, it means +20 MW power plant.
( it's actually more like a 50MW power plant considering the normal/average el. consumption data...).
Yep, no more big hydro, no pollution caused by fossil fuel thermal plants, and no more fission nuclear, no radioactive/toxic waste problems....

Yep, another candidate for a close encounter with "MiB".. (we all know that MiB's and similar pest somehow always find out and stop any FE achievement )...
 
Who would really need a cheap, clean, abundant,...  energy source? Really...
...

Oh, dear... If this is true, the Human race has at least one of a big problems solved...


I'll keep my eye on this invention... Who knows? Maybe...

Cheers!
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 06, 2009, 02:40:12 PM
I couldn´t stand it anymore and called his home and got his father on the phone.

I apologized for the intrusion and asked if I could speak to Sjack. "No he is working. Back at around six."

Please do not start callng him en masse I will try once more in about 4 hours and post reaction.

Thanks for your opinions, I do not share the idea that this is somehow an elaborate hoax. There is simply no reason for that. A hoax would only destroy the inventors credibility and ability to continue working in this field.

Maybe one of the reasons he has not proactively sought media attention is exactly what we are seeing here: ridicule. Was I wrong in posting about him? Time will tell. No answers from Henkel or the Ministry of VROM as of yet. I have confirmation of my inquiry from VROM and a ref#. Claim is repsonse within two working days so Tuesday afternoon deadline.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Alexioco on April 06, 2009, 02:50:26 PM
I couldn´t stand it anymore and called his home and got his father on the phone.

I apologized for the intrusion and asked if I could speak to Sjack. "No he is working. Back at around six."

Please do not start callng him en masse I will try once more in about 4 hours and post reaction.

Thanks for your opinions, I do not share the idea that this is somehow an elaborate hoax. There is simply no reason for that. A hoax would only destroy the inventors credibility and ability to continue working in this field.

Maybe one of the reasons he has not proactively sought media attention is exactly what we are seeing here: ridicule. Was I wrong in posting about him? Time will tell. No answers from Henkel or the Ministry of VROM as of yet. I have confirmation of my inquiry from VROM and a ref#. Claim is repsonse within two working days so Tuesday afternoon deadline.

Hey thats interesting, wander what he will say to you? If his wheel really work, is it the same as Besslers? Did Bessler mention anything about a fall and lift mechanism?

Alex
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: ramset on April 06, 2009, 03:09:25 PM
The video is what ,one year old?
he has been busy!!

Chet
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 06, 2009, 03:12:09 PM
Hey thats interesting, wander what he will say to you? If his wheel really work, is it the same as Besslers? Did Bessler mention anything about a fall and lift mechanism?

Alex

Alex, I really do not know. If I knew how Bessler did it I would be in my workshop right now...

lol sorry i'm getting carried away, cant wait to see what he says when u next ring

Alex
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 06, 2009, 03:15:45 PM
The video is what ,one year old?
he has been busy!!

Chet

He sure has been quietly planning & gathering support, which makes it all the more interesting. (As opposed to the hello world approach).
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 06, 2009, 03:46:38 PM
all that I can say is if you take a look at this picture

http://mooieenergie.nl/images/stories/ab3.png

Newsflash: the white circle represents the axle.

Title: Update: CONTACT WITH SJACK ABELING
Post by: AquariuZ on April 06, 2009, 07:42:45 PM
Just gotten off the (mobile) phone with Sjack Abeling, he was calm, very polite and informative.

Where to start:

IT IS REAL

He has a partnership with Henkel for the glue techniques and Erik (Engine/Turbines/Generators) has the commission for the generators.

Money is not the real issue, he has core investors.The Patent(s) are handled by a commercial company, and he is confident they will be accepted. The word Perpetuum Mobile or infinity is not used and should not be desired.A basic agreement is made with the Ministry of Economic affairs.

It is all exactly as stated. The core of the system is the Dual Leverage System as described. He says it works with an incredible acceleration from stand still and the main engineering issue is the correct way to keep the system from destroying itself, in other words containment via some form of advanced braking system. He said that is what is he spending most of his time on right now.

He was sorry he could not divulge any information yet, but the investors will not allow him to present anything as a stipulation of their providing Venture Capital. He said however that the moment he gets the ok he will start a tour across schools for starters. He mentioned that he would update the site with what he could, but in the short term (weeks) no full disclosure is to be expected.

In closing I asked if he would want to say anything to the members on this forum:

"Volhouden, het is zeker mogelijk" which means:

"Persevere, it is indeed possible".

I do not know if I should laugh or cry because on the one hand after having spoken to him I am convinced he is for real and on the other hand I really fear his invention will be bought & suppressed by a some corporation...

It is too early to tell.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: dutchy1966 on April 06, 2009, 08:00:11 PM
Hi Aquariuz,

Thanks for ringing him! I have one question: Did he somehow release any indication about the source he's tapping. My personal guess is the centrifugal force, which accelerates the weight outward. (he states that as well!)
It might be that the weights accelerates outward through a curved pathway and then later on drops down the second half of the pathway. But how does he get it to return to the starting position?

regards Dutchy. 
Title: Re: Update: CONTACT WITH SJACK ABELING
Post by: Alexioco on April 06, 2009, 08:02:01 PM
Just gotten off the (mobile) phone with Sjack Abeling, he was calm, very polite and informative.

Where to start:

IT IS REAL

He has a partnership with Henkel for the glue techniques and Erik (Engine/Turbines/Generators) has the commission for the generators.

Money is not the real issue, he has core investors.The Patent(s) are handled by a commercial company, and he is confident they will be accepted. The word Perpetuum Mobile or infinity is not used and should not be desired.A basic agreement is made with the Ministry of Economic affairs.

It is all exactly as stated. The core of the system is the Dual Leverage System as described. He says it works with an incredible acceleration from stand still and the main engineering issue is the correct way to keep the system from destroying itself, in other words containment via some form of advanced braking system. He said that is what is he spending most of his time on right now.

He was sorry he could not divulge any information yet, but the investors will not allow him to present anything as a stipulation of their providing Venture Capital. He said however that the moment he gets the ok he will start a tour across schools for starters. He mentioned that he would update the site with what he could, but in the short term (weeks) no full disclosure is to be expected.

In closing I asked if he would want to say anything to the members on this forum:

"Volhouden, het is zeker mogelijk" which means:

"Persevere, it is indeed possible".

I do not know if I should laugh or cry because on the one hand after having spoken to him I am convinced he is for real and on the other hand I really fear his invention will be bought & suppressed by a some corporation...

It is too early to tell.

wow, sounds promising, it would be interesting to find a way to let it keep spinning, getting faster and faster without it destroying itself. I'm really looking forward to this, I cant help but dream of letting the wheel spin, go to bed, get up the next morning to still see it spinning :D

Alex

Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 06, 2009, 08:09:08 PM
Hi Aquariuz,

Thanks for ringing him! I have one question: Did he somehow release any indication about the source he's tapping. My personal guess is the centrifugal force, which accelerates the weight outward. (he states that as well!)
It might be that the weights accelerates outward through a curved pathway and then later on drops down the second half of the pathway. But how does he get it to return to the starting position?

regards Dutchy. 

That is exactly it... Cannot disclose sigh...  :-X :-X :-X

Eventually someone is bound to come up with something workable using the acceleration path as a starting point.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: dutchy1966 on April 06, 2009, 08:17:47 PM
That is exactly it... Cannot disclose sigh...  :-X :-X :-X

Eventually someone is bound to come up with something workable using the acceleration path as a starting point.

Hi again,

Just had a look again at the video on youtube and noticed something strange. At first when he walks into the shed you can see the wooden wheel in the background. You can see alot of slots (like spokes) going from the center outward. So I thought the weights have to take that path......  BUT ...later on in the same video, when they show the wheel being moved by hand, I can see completely different slots in the wheel.....????

Have a look... Are these two different wheels????

Second thing I noticed is that there are basically two discs making up this system..... Could it be that the paired weights are not in the same disc but somehow transfer the gained energy from one disc to the adjacent one?
Like...two disc, two weights paired, one in each wheel.....

Regards,

Dutchy
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 06, 2009, 08:21:00 PM
Hi again,

Just had a look again at the video on youtube and noticed something strange. At first when he walks into the shed you can see the wooden wheel in the background. You can see alot of slots (like spokes) going from the center outward. So I thought the weights have to take that path......  BUT ...later on in the same video, when they show the wheel being moved by hand, I can see completely different slots in the wheel.....????

Have a look... Are these two different wheels????

Second thing I noticed is that there are basically two discs making up this system..... Could it be that the paired weights are not in the same disc but somehow transfer the gained energy from one disc to the adjacent one?
Like...two disc, two weights paired, one in each wheel.....

Regards,

Dutchy

Look again, there are THREE discs with different slots carved in, I have counted 16 slots (look at the numbers). Somehow he manages to let weights freefall into the slots and ride up on the other side through momentum.

I would love to start building, but I have no idea what to do...
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: dutchy1966 on April 06, 2009, 08:33:49 PM
Look again, there are THREE discs with different slots carved in, I have counted 16 slots (look at the numbers). Somehow he manages to let weights freefall into the slots and ride up on the other side through momentum.

I would love to start building, but I have no idea what to do...

Sorry, I cant seem to make out three discs.... I see two discs in the beginning of the video (having likely 16 slots indeed). Later on there definately is another setup and I can see lots of cup size holes aswell.....

Can you tell me at how many minues:seconds into the video you clearly see three discs?

Title: Re: Update: CONTACT WITH SJACK ABELING
Post by: spinner on April 06, 2009, 08:46:53 PM
Just gotten off the (mobile) phone with Sjack Abeling, he was calm, very polite and informative.

Where to start:

IT IS REAL
Excellent! Let's all hope it really is...

Quote
He has a partnership with Henkel for the glue techniques and Erik (Engine/Turbines/Generators) has the commission for the generators.
OK, good for the generator firm... I can't understand the Henkel's glue techniques involvement...

Quote
Money is not the real issue, he has core investors.The Patent(s) are handled by a commercial company, and he is confident they will be accepted. The word Perpetuum Mobile or infinity is not used and should not be desired.A basic agreement is made with the Ministry of Economic affairs.
Sounds reasonable & possible...

Quote
It is all exactly as stated. The core of the system is the Dual Leverage System as described. He says it works with an incredible acceleration from stand still and the main engineering issue is the correct way to keep the system from destroying itself, in other words containment via some form of advanced braking system. He said that is what is he spending most of his time on right now.
OK, the "way to keep the system from destroying itself" - this sentence is a total nonsense.
If we're really talking about a gravity(+inertia+CF+other known rotational dynamics forces) wheel , It will absolutely be self-limiting in performance (rpm, torque, all the forces..).
No self destruction... Unless if the thing is made out of a fragile materials, like glass (why would anyone wants to build it from glass???)....

Quote
He was sorry he could not divulge any information yet, but the investors will not allow him to present anything as a stipulation of their providing Venture Capital. He said however that the moment he gets the ok he will start a tour across schools for starters. He mentioned that he would update the site with what he could, but in the short term (weeks) no full disclosure is to be expected.
Sounds fair... If he really has at least a working prototype...

Quote
....

I do not know if I should laugh or cry because on the one hand after having spoken to him I am convinced he is for real and on the other hand I really fear his invention will be bought & suppressed by a some corporation...

It is too early to tell.

Yes, we'll see.
BTW, thanks for your research, I hope you'll find more about this invention!
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: X00013 on April 06, 2009, 09:18:50 PM
Hi all, its alot easier for myself to make a quick vid on some tid bits from the news clip rather than type it all out, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiDGQJ0ASgw
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: dutchy1966 on April 06, 2009, 09:26:30 PM
Hi X00013,

Have you got an opinion about the round holes in the discs later on in the video? I dont see them in the bit you pointed out....

regards,

Dutchy
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 06, 2009, 10:17:35 PM
Dutch you are right it is two not three, it was a cover from the side.

I have just send a lenghty SMS to Sjack expressing my concerns and basically stating that I fear that once the concept is out of his hands it will never see the light of day in a commercial environment. Sure, he will be a rich man, but this will not benefit mankind or the environment. However that, if he chooses to go public he will certainly gain more income and fame -not to mention even the possibility of a Nobel Prize- than he ever would in just selling the invention. (The standard Corporate tactic). Furthermore if he publishes under his own name he will get 100% credit, replications can be made worldwide and full implementation of the system will follow shortly after. Just a thought.

Lastly I reminded him of the option of securing all plans with a notary if an unexpected calamity would occur so that at least the plans are secure. I urged him as well to come and have a look here on overunity.com and hopefully provide some updates.

I will not contact or "harass" him again until he contacts me, I gave him my phone number.
Title: Re: Update: CONTACT WITH SJACK ABELING
Post by: AquariuZ on April 06, 2009, 10:28:13 PM
OK, the "way to keep the system from destroying itself" - this sentence is a total nonsense.
If we're really talking about a gravity(+inertia+CF+other known rotational dynamics forces) wheel , It will absolutely be self-limiting in performance (rpm, torque, all the forces..).

In theory it would be limited by the (freefall) speed of the weight i.e. until the speed of the wheel matches the freefall speed of the weights. A large wheel spinning at those speeds? what are we talking here, 30000 Rpm? What do you think will happen to such a wheel? Can it be contained?

This is the issue why there needs to be a failsafe throttling system.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: lostcauses10x on April 06, 2009, 10:49:54 PM
So again with no proof we are supposedly to accept. Right....
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 06, 2009, 11:00:03 PM
So again with no proof we are supposedly to accept. Right....

I feel your pain. All I ask you to accept is that he exists, that he has found something, and that he is on the level. It is frustrating nevertheless. At least he is Googleable now.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: X00013 on April 06, 2009, 11:09:52 PM
@ Dutchy, yea, looks like five holes, maybe to balance?, just a guess. I would love to get my hands on some more video or pictures.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 06, 2009, 11:28:08 PM
@ Dutchy, yea, looks like five holes, maybe to balance?, just a guess. I would love to get my hands on some more video or pictures.

Maybe insertion points for the weights?
Title: Re: Update: CONTACT WITH SJACK ABELING
Post by: spinner on April 06, 2009, 11:32:08 PM

In theory it would be limited by the (freefall) speed of the weight i.e. until the speed of the wheel matches the freefall speed of the weights.
Hmm, if speed of the wheel equalizes with the free-falling weight,  then where the driving torque comes from? What drives the wheel to that speed?
And how big that wheel should really be?

Quote
A large wheel spinning at those speeds? what are we talking here, 30000 Rpm? What do you think will happen to such a wheel? Can it be contained?

This is the issue why there needs to be a failsafe throttling system.

A LARGE (heavy) unbalanced wheel spinning at 30kRPM? No, thanks... (not made of glass, i hope?)

Well, that would certainly not be a gravity driven wheel... ;)


Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 07, 2009, 12:35:49 AM
@AquariuZ,

Quote
All I ask you to accept is ... that he has found something, and that he is on the level.

On what grounds are you asking us to accept that he has found something let alone that whatever you think he has found is remotely noteworthy?
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: ramset on April 07, 2009, 02:18:09 AM
Aquariuz
Thank you for bringing this to our attention

Big names involved
 
Dutch gov't involved

Thanks for researching and sharing

looking forward to more news on this

Chet


Title: CONCEPT GUESS NUMBER ONE
Post by: AquariuZ on April 07, 2009, 02:48:33 AM
I might as well start guessing.

Racking my brain reading the clues over the past few days this is my initial try... The weights are connected via bars like the things used in weightlifting (Dutch: "Halter"). The wheel consists of two layers with slots. The halters effectively connect the two wheel layers... To get the "D" type action, some form of static barrier must be placed between the two wheel layers, which will stop the bars connecting the weights from going past the six o clock position, effectively pushing the welter in an upward motion, shot putting the halter (two weights connected with a steel bar) from the six o clock position into the twelve o clock position on the other side. Pow. The halter lands between twelve and one o clock and falls into place where gravity takes a hold.

There are 16 slots on each wheel, each "Tube" has two slots, one halter per tube so a total of 8 halters for the system.

Here a quick wm2d model I made, yes, it is full of errors but hopefully you will see what I am trying to say. This is the view from one side, you should see the spheres as only one part of the halter. I have made only 8 slots, as the full 16 would be too intensive for now. Funny thing is that the slots look somewhat like boots (as in the video).

Model download http://www.gigasize.com/get.php?d=yz59m4y7wqd

It is 1.34Mb zipped.

Needless to say the barrier stops the weights in this model whereas in the real model the bar connecting the weights would be stopped. For motion display purposes I use a motor at -0.20 rad I would not dare to presume to create an entire working model of the actual system because this is simply not possible with this software.

Hopefully I will be able to make a more complete view soon. Looking forward to suggestions.

Edit: this is what I mean with halter, it is a dumbbell weight
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 07, 2009, 07:05:57 AM
Aside from the fact that the video provides no information as to the essence of the claim, it contains something else curious. There’s an expert invited to assess the claim who ends his statement quite accommodatingly with “we physicists never say never”. This caught my attention, as an unusually soft statement – this is in front of a tv camera after all -- from the viciously adversarial world of the physics community towards anything remotely resembling perpetuum mobile (some may recall the report on my visit to the physics department in Oslo university after seeing Reidar Finsrud’s perpetuum mobile).

So, the apparent air of open-mindedness made me decide to see if it would be possible to set up a meeting with this honorable colleague and I looked up in a search engine to find out who prof. Eric Bergshoeff is. As it turns out, appropriately so from societal point of view, the tv station had invited an university professor whose main scientific interest has been, in essence, the nature of gravity, as can be seen from the list of his 135 peer-reviewed publications: http://www.bergshoeff.fmns.rug.nl/publ.pdf . So far so good. A closer inspection of the papers, however, reveals that all prof. Bergshoeff has dealt with during obviously all his career has been to apply the general theory of relativity (GTR).

I don’t know what Sjack Abeling has done and prof. Bergshoeff doesn’t know either. Therefore, we wouldn’t be able to discuss anything regarding Sjack Abeling perpetuum mobile should the good professor agrees to a meeting with me.

However, I know very well that general theory of relativity is an invalid theory because the theory which it is a continuation of, the special theory of relativity, is a categorical failure. Thus, what would really make sense to talk about during a meeting with prof. Bergshoeff is to show him that he has wasted all his time up until now in pursuing chimeras in physics. And that will be true even if there are contributions in prof. Bergshoeff’s papers to pure mathematics because pure mathematics as an end in itself is not a subject matter of pursuit in a physics department. This would be even worse to tell a professor in academia concerned about his career than trying to persuade him that perpetuum mobile is real (which it is, regardless of the outcome from Sjack Abeling experiment).

On the other hand, no matter how polite I would be during such a meeting it would be immoral if I did not state clearly what I stated above. Maybe even add that he should probably go back to the tv station and apologize that his expertise on gravity is based on a bogus theory which he has believed all his life but now has found is fallacious. That would be the day! Such behavior is only up to exceptional people of historical significance and I really don’t know how close to that prof. Bergshoeff is.

So, we are in a bad shape. On the one hand we have a whole department (center): http://www.rug.nl/natuurkunde/onderzoek/instituten/ctn/organisatie/index full of bright people who with full certainty are wasting their time 100% while the society perceives them as reliable scientists. On the other hand we have the likes of Sjack Abeling, more of a gold-digger than anything else (why otherwise the games he is playing), who may be onto something while hiding in his barn. The former is institutionalized provable nonsense, the latter a betting game. We are really in a bad shape.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Grimer on April 07, 2009, 07:17:11 AM
...
However, I know very well that general theory of relativity is an invalid theory because the theory which it is a continuation of, the special theory of relativity, is a categorical failure. Thus, what would really make sense to talk about during a meeting with prof. Bergshoeff is to show him that he has wasted all his time up until now in pursuing chimeras in physics. And that will be true even if there are contributions in prof. Bergshoeff’s papers to pure mathematics because pure mathematics as an end in itself is not a subject matter of pursuit in a physics department. This would be even worse to tell a professor in academia concerned about his career than trying to persuade him that perpetuum mobile is real (which it is, regardless of the outcome from Sjack Abeling experiment).
...

That's fighting talk Omnibus - Give to 'em, hot and strong.  ;D
(Needless to say, I agree with you Babcat's 110%  :o )
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 07, 2009, 07:25:01 AM
@Grimer,

Academics are comfortable in their theory of relativity swamp while society has to rely on truck drivers to come up with something sensible. We’re living in tragic times. Real dead-end.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: hansvonlieven on April 07, 2009, 09:13:25 AM
All that our good Professor did was hedging his bets. That is what academia does. Ask them for a definitive statement on something controversial and all you get is weasel talk.

Hans von Lieven
Title: Re: Update: CONTACT WITH SJACK ABELING
Post by: Grimer on April 07, 2009, 09:40:10 AM
Just gotten off the (mobile) phone with Sjack Abeling, he was calm, very polite and informative.

Where to start:

IT IS REAL

He has a partnership with Henkel for the glue techniques and Erik (Engine/Turbines/Generators) has the commission for the generators.

Money is not the real issue, he has core investors.The Patent(s) are handled by a commercial company, and he is confident they will be accepted. The word Perpetuum Mobile or infinity is not used and should not be desired.A basic agreement is made with the Ministry of Economic affairs.

It is all exactly as stated. The core of the system is the Dual Leverage System as described. He says it works with an incredible acceleration from stand still and the main engineering issue is the correct way to keep the system from destroying itself, in other words containment via some form of advanced braking system. He said that is what is he spending most of his time on right now.

He was sorry he could not divulge any information yet, but the investors will not allow him to present anything as a stipulation of their providing Venture Capital. He said however that the moment he gets the ok he will start a tour across schools for starters. He mentioned that he would update the site with what he could, but in the short term (weeks) no full disclosure is to be expected.

In closing I asked if he would want to say anything to the members on this forum:

"Volhouden, het is zeker mogelijk" which means:

"Persevere, it is indeed possible".

I do not know if I should laugh or cry because on the one hand after having spoken to him I am convinced he is for real and on the other hand I really fear his invention will be bought & suppressed by a some corporation...

It is too early to tell.

Cheer up AquariuZ. I think it's real too cos I can understand what is going on. At first I thought it must be an extension of the work of that New Zealander, Bruce de Palma. But I now see that Sjack is probably invoking a higher derivative than acceleration, i.e. rate of change of acceleration. This will really unhinge the internal gyros (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7150.msg168610#msg168610)..

After all, Sjack isn't the first is he. There was that fat bloke, Bob, a few years ago - and though that one has never seen the full light of day, it hasn't been disproved either.

I realise it is very difficult for people to believe that when they push against an object to accelerate it, they are only doing the equivalent of turning their steering wheel (in a modern car) but nature has evidently developed servo-mechanisms long before we thought of them. Not surprising really is it?
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Grimer on April 07, 2009, 10:05:41 AM
The way one can be received by internal servos can easily be demonstrated in the case of rotational inertia by filling a black box with free running gyros in gimbals. If the gimbals are free then it is easy to rotate the box. Lock the gimbals and the rotational inertia (mass if you didn't understand what mass really is and didn't know what was going on) increases enormously.

Likewise, any decent engineer could devise a railway waggon where if you pushed against it with a force of 1 pound, release of gyro energy would drive the wheels with a force of 1000 pounds.
The human pusher would be deceived into thinking that the mass of the carriage was far less than in reality since he would judge the mass from the acceleration produced by the force he applied. He would  not realise that the energy he was putting in was merely a control energy which was being multiplied a thousand times by the machinery inside the waggon.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Grimer on April 07, 2009, 10:35:59 AM
All that our good Professor did was hedging his bets. That is what academia does. Ask them for a definitive statement on something controversial and all you get is weasel talk.

Hans von Lieven

Not only that, but if you confront them with a totally heretical idea together with substantial evidence all you will get is silence. In short if you challenge them to fight, they back off and slink away. Early in my career I realised it made far more sense to see materials as held together from without rather than from within - with all the implications as to the existence of the aether that this implied. In short, that internal tensions were merely negations, reduction in external pressure.

An international conference was coming up in which we had to present our experimental work. I realised that to be true to myself I must put forward this heretical view. I wasn't looking forward to it and expected to be lynched (metaphorically speaking). To my amazement the only comment we got was some chap who came up after the conference dinner looking very worried and said,

"That paper of yours. It was a hoax, wasn't it?"

We fell about laughing and assured him that we were deadly serious. I don't think he believed us.

To be quite honest I came to the conclusion that people only go to those conferences for the beer.

Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 07, 2009, 11:01:45 AM
So, we are in a bad shape. On the one hand we have a whole department (center): http://www.rug.nl/natuurkunde/onderzoek/instituten/ctn/organisatie/index full of bright people who with full certainty are wasting their time 100% while the society perceives them as reliable scientists. On the other hand we have the likes of Sjack Abeling, more of a gold-digger than anything else (why otherwise the games he is playing), who may be onto something while hiding in his barn. The former is institutionalized provable nonsense, the latter a betting game. We are really in a bad shape.

If you really want to get involved why not pay Sjack a visit instead of the professor.

He is not "hiding" in his barn. His data is publically available. I even spoke to him over the phone. I would visit him myself but I am 1600 miles away from Ter Apel.
Title: CONCEPT GUESS 1
Post by: AquariuZ on April 07, 2009, 11:03:47 AM
NO COMMENTS ON MY THEORY?

Is it that bad?

Racking my brain reading the clues over the past few days this is my initial try... The weights are connected via bars like the things used in weightlifting (Dutch: "Halter"). The wheel consists of two layers with slots. The halters effectively connect the two wheel layers... To get the "D" type action, some form of static barrier must be placed between the two wheel layers, which will stop the bars connecting the weights from going past the six o clock position, effectively pushing the welter in an upward motion, shot putting the halter (two weights connected with a steel bar) from the six o clock position into the twelve o clock position on the other side. Pow. The halter lands between twelve and one o clock and falls into place where gravity takes a hold.

There are 16 slots on each wheel, each "Tube" has two slots, one halter per tube so a total of 8 halters for the system.

Here a quick wm2d model I made, yes, it is full of errors but hopefully you will see what I am trying to say. This is the view from one side, you should see the spheres as only one part of the halter. I have made only 8 slots, as the full 16 would be too intensive for now. Funny thing is that the slots look somewhat like boots (as in the video).

Model download http://www.gigasize.com/get.php?d=yz59m4y7wqd

It is 1.34Mb zipped.

Needless to say the barrier stops the weights in this model whereas in the real model the bar connecting the weights would be stopped. For motion display purposes I use a motor at -0.20 rad I would not dare to presume to create an entire working model of the actual system because this is simply not possible with this software.

Hopefully I will be able to make a more complete view soon. Looking forward to suggestions.

Edit: this is what I mean with halter, it is a dumbbell weight

Second picture: The dumbbell path viewed from the side with the white circle being the axle of the wheel, the right side being the fixed acceleration path and the left side being the lifting or dumbbell shot-put path.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Philip Hardcastle on April 07, 2009, 11:23:20 AM
@Aquariuz

I do not normally post strong views about ideas as I do not wish to upset anyone... but a device generating power from weights, in whatever arrangement, is rubbish. I only say this so that those people listening to those people pushing such ideas and talking investors know to be wary (run in fact).

Phyics is physics, sometimes slightly wrong, sometimes yet to be discovered but wheels and weights hold no possible surprises.

Regards

Phil
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 07, 2009, 12:24:03 PM
but a device generating power from weights, in whatever arrangement, is rubbish. I only say this so that those people listening to those people pushing such ideas and talking investors know to be wary (run in fact).

Everything that can be invented has been invented.
    Charles H. Duell, Commissioner, U.S. patent office, 1899 (attributed)


Without further comment.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: spinner on April 07, 2009, 01:28:53 PM
Everything that can be invented has been invented.
    Charles H. Duell, Commissioner, U.S. patent office, 1899 (attributed)


Without further comment.
Lol, why no comment? I'd like to hear your thoughts about that...

Yes, this was one of those "historical" statements which is still widely used by the "FE" proponents as a "proof how science is blind".... I suggest you explore the background of this famous statement, it certainly is interesting...

Surely, you don't believe that some clerk opinion could represent a general scientific opinion of that time? Why did you pick the minority opinion? Because it suits you at the moment?

Shall we start with the flat Earth, Heliocentric stuff,..  Alchemy, Phlogiston..
Continuing with Tesla, Edison,... Wright brothers, flight,... tectonic plates,.. .. rockets,.. the bumblebee story, genetics,..etc...? Pick one...

People always make mistakes. Me, You, ... and everyone else...

Just reread this thread of yours, and list all the false statements made by anyone participating so far....

The results?
Cheers!
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Grimer on April 07, 2009, 02:08:44 PM
@Aquariuz
...

Phyics is physics, sometimes slightly wrong, sometimes yet to be discovered but wheels and weights hold no possible surprises.

If it works then you will be in for a nice treat, the nicest surprise of all, an impossible surprise.

I do envy you, ;D
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: spinner on April 07, 2009, 02:28:00 PM
The way one can be received by internal servos can easily be demonstrated in the case of rotational inertia by filling a black box with free running gyros in gimbals. If the gimbals are free then it is easy to rotate the box. Lock the gimbals and the rotational inertia (mass if you didn't understand what mass really is and didn't know what was going on) increases enormously.

OK.

Quote
Likewise, any decent engineer could devise a railway waggon where if you pushed against it with a force of 1 pound, release of gyro energy would drive the wheels with a force of 1000 pounds.
The human pusher would be deceived into thinking that the mass of the carriage was far less than in reality since he would judge the mass from the acceleration produced by the force he applied. He would  not realise that the energy he was putting in was merely a control energy which was being multiplied a thousand times by the machinery inside the waggon.

Frank, you're a "decent engineer", so you can "devise" that wagon of yours all by yourself..
Or, at least provide some serious data to back up this experiment...

You can use a "gyro fairy" to spinn all the gyros which will then propell (tricky mechanism, but as Grimer says, any engineer can solve this...) the wagon only by a slight push of some external force.... No need for a locomotive? If I understand this correctly, i could push the wagon (?) all by myself? As long as the gyros are spinning? 1000:1 "gain"?
That would be something...

Either I don't understand what you're saying here, or your "wagon case" is simply wrong...
Cheers!
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: oscar on April 07, 2009, 02:31:30 PM
Hi AquariuZ,
thanks for getting involved and thanks for posting your wm2d file.
I also think that Sjack has designed his logo for a reason and I think it depicts the path of the weights in his system.

I think that the dots in his logo should be interpreted as parts of a chain (= links of a chain).

Obviously the weights (= links of the chain) which are pulled up through the middle of the wheel, do not create torque whereas the weights on the rim of the wheel create torque and lead to rotation of the wheel.

The problem where I am stuck in my mind, is how to create a 'mechanical interface' which pulls/puts the chain onto the rim of the wheel at 12 o' clock.

I wish you success with your next simulation.

PS: if Sjack wants to slow down the wheel, it may be a good idea to do it with a pendulum which he can link to the wheel as Bessler did.
see right side of
http://www.orffyre.com/Weissenstein1.jpg
In this way he can force the rotation of the wheel into a fixed rhythm.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 07, 2009, 02:45:02 PM
I Think slowing the wheel down is a minor problem, just increase the load.  Connect more generatos or a gearbox .. So when it wants to spin out of control you increase the resistance, wich will also supply more energy or heat.. So that is a win-win situation.

( Or am i missing something?)
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Philip Hardcastle on April 07, 2009, 02:57:33 PM
@aquariuz

Reality check required.

The search for alternate energy must at least have some logic.

If someone calims to have a working device and claims the energy comes from, say, zero point energy, then it deserves looking at.

If it might come from thermal, or some 22 dimensional vortex then we should try to see if it might be so, even if it does not easily gel in our minds.

But this device does not give any hint of any claim of it coming from a theoretical source, just a claim it comes from common, everyday gravity........

Logic says 1=1 and for gravity (weights) potential enerrgy is m x g x h. Nothing magical here, simple arithmetic. So whatever you do you simply transfer potential energy to kinetic and back to potential with frictional losses slowly bringing things to a halt.

If there is no logic or hope then why do people want to make FE look like mumbo jumbo.

Let us search for real ideas / theories and investigate claims based upon common sense.

Phil
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Grimer on April 07, 2009, 03:08:05 PM
OK.

Either I don't understand what you're saying here, or your "wagon case" is simply wrong...
Cheers!
Correct. You don't understand what I am saying. You don't understand how much energy can be stored in spinning gyros (flywheels) and you don't understand the principles of servo-mechanics. I suggest you get yourself an education in these matters.  ;)
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 07, 2009, 03:47:39 PM
@Grimer,

Quote
At first I thought it must be an extension of the work of that New Zealander, Bruce de Palma.

What work of Bruce de Palma do you have in mind? I visited Bruce couple of times in Santa Barbara and he showed me some very interesting experiments, including the homopolar generator but no gravity driven machine. Maybe you mean his experiments w/ falling objects? Speaking of the Faraday generator, after visiting de Palma I spoke with prof. Kincheloe at Stanford university who showed me in his office data with telltale signs for Lentz’ law violation. Unfortunately, Bruce had been uncooperative and prof. Kincheloe wasn’t able to complete his independent studies of the motor. He told me he was trying to build one himself so that he can further study this violation (as you probably know a Colorado religious sect helped Bruce financially to build two of these one of which he kept). Unfortunately, after prof. Kincheloe retired in Oregon I could never get in touch with him despite my many attempts to do so.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 07, 2009, 03:49:05 PM
@AquariuZ,

Quote
f you really want to get involved why not pay Sjack a visit instead of the professor.

I wrote him an e-mail to that effect but never got an answer. I sent a pm to @broli123 who posted the video on youtube. Never got an answer either. Also, as far as I understand from his website his investors are reluctant to have the details about the machine revealed. So, what good will it do to just meet with the guy and talk. This reminds me of a meeting I had at Oxford university at the center for quantum computing where I expected to see experiments but we ended up just discussing the theoretical background (very clever, by the way, if one believes that Hilbert space is indeed endowed with the physical meaning ascribed to it).
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 07, 2009, 03:49:44 PM
@Philip Hardcastle,

Quote
Phyics is physics, sometimes slightly wrong ...

Not slightly wrong. In the case of what prof. Bergshoeff is doing it is very, very wrong; completely wrong. Einstein’s theory of relativity and anything connected with it (string theories, cosmology etc.) should be abandoned in its entirety, without a trace.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 07, 2009, 03:55:54 PM
@Philip Hardcastle,

I don't want to get into details now but it can be shown that there can be cases when energy produced need not come from a pre-existing energy reservoir. Colloquially speaking one may say that's "energy created from nothing". Of course, it isn't from nothing because the energy in question appears due to the opportunity created (through a proper construction of the machine) for conservative forces to induce displacement. Thus, while the "transformation" part of CoE can never be violated, there are instances whereby the "conservation" aspect of CoE can be violated.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: spinner on April 07, 2009, 04:08:18 PM
Correct. You don't understand what I am saying.
Obviously..!

Quote
You don't understand how much energy can be stored in spinning gyros (flywheels) and you don't understand the principles of servo-mechanics....
Now this can is debatable... As far as I know, I can handle the (simple) equation for flywheel energy storage...
(I'm not so sure about you?)
Servo-mechanics? What about?  Physics/Mechanics, feedbacks/regulations? What exactly? Be specific.

Quote
I suggest you get yourself an education in these matters.  ;)

That's not nice, Frank... I'll hold my respond to this ... For now....
 >:(

So, are you going to answer what is going on with your "wagon case", or you'll just try to wiggling out?

I suggest you read your "waggon" case again, and then tell me where the energy comes from?
Then you'll probably demonstrate how a 10 ton wagon, full of spinning flywheels, can be pushed with a "one pound force". Is that your OverUnity?

(forget about the "gyro fairy" which spinned the gyros at the beginning...).
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: mondrasek on April 07, 2009, 05:55:36 PM
A while back I made a CAD drawing so I could visualize the acceleration vectors in a spinning wheel.  For this exercise I assumed a 12 ft. diameter wheel spinning at 26 RPM (go figure).  I drew a grid and summed the accelerations due to gravity and centrifugal force at each point on this grid.

It is interesting to me to look at the D shaped logo on http://mooieenergie.nl/ and mentally superimpose it over the acceleration vector map.  If the symbols near the middle of that D with the circle and arrow are representative of a weight and the direction of the "shot put" throw, it could show a weight being launched from around 9 o'clock, close to the axle, towards 1 o'clock, out by the rim.  And depending on the speed of the wheel, this path could send it through the null point, where gravity and centrifugal force are canceling and the mass is weightless.  Also, the path could be such that the acceleration vectors at the beginning and end of this trajectory are equal and opposite.

Thanks,

M.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Grimer on April 07, 2009, 05:56:17 PM
...
That's not nice, Frank...
...
Fair enough. I was rude. I apologise. And I'm only too happy to explain - at length.

So you cover the inner side of the wagon walls with strain gauges. Remember this isn't meant to be a practical blueprint but an explanation of principle.

The strain gauges pick up the amount of pressure and the length of time that pressure is applied.
This information is transmitted to a controller which instructs the flywheels/gyros to power the wagon wheels by the appropriate amount. So the wagon accelerates. When the person takes his hand away the acceleration stops and the wagon carries on rolling forward at the speed it reached at the end of the push, the end of the acceleration. It would seem to the man pushing as though he had accelerated the wagon cos the machinery inside is so well made that there in no vibration and no sound.

If the man continues to push the wagon to higher and higher speeds the internal gyros will eventually become polarised and it would seem to the man the the inertia, the mass of the wagon was increasing. In fact it would merely be the efficiency of the servos which was decreasing.

Now this works for a wagon cos one can transmit forces through the wheels to the track.

But how about a body in outer space? That manifests the same inertia. Surely, it has nothing for its internal gyros to grip on. Mmmmmm......

Yes it has. It grips on the same thing that electromagnetic wave grips on. The very dense aether that is supposed not to exist. Sound waves require a atmosphere full of stuff. EM waves require an atmosphere much fuller of stuff - much, much, much fuller of stuff. The Victorians knew it. We refuse to think about it cos science has been usurped by mathematical physicists as Omnibus points out correctly, vigorously and at length. It's time engineers manned the barricades and took it back. And I predict that is shortly going to happen.

You see the trouble is, understanding the nature of mass, the nature of inertia is like taking a sip of the bar spittoon. Take one sip and you find you have to swallow the lot cos it's all in one piece.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As for the "gyro fairies" that keep the fundamental bits of matter spinning, you tell me. The fact is they are spinning that is a given, They possess motion just like Brownian particles possess motion, presumably for the same kind of reason. As Leibniz said, motion can only come from motion - and if it doesn't move it doesn't exist - or something like that.  :)
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 07, 2009, 09:29:04 PM
A while back I made a CAD drawing so I could visualize the acceleration vectors in a spinning wheel.  For this exercise I assumed a 12 ft. diameter wheel spinning at 26 RPM (go figure).  I drew a grid and summed the accelerations due to gravity and centrifugal force at each point on this grid.

It is interesting to me to look at the D shaped logo on http://mooieenergie.nl/ and mentally superimpose it over the acceleration vector map.  If the symbols near the middle of that D with the circle and arrow are representative of a weight and the direction of the "shot put" throw, it could show a weight being launched from around 9 o'clock, close to the axle, towards 1 o'clock, out by the rim.  And depending on the speed of the wheel, this path could send it through the null point, where gravity and centrifugal force are canceling and the mass is weightless.  Also, the path could be such that the acceleration vectors at the beginning and end of this trajectory are equal and opposite.

mondrasek this is really nice, thanks...

I am almost at a point where I need to build a small model with dumbbells and all because I suck at maths. If you superimpose the "D" path you will find two things:

1) The optimal torque pull is in the "belly" of the D
2) At the six o clock position something spectacular needs to happen to bring the dumbells up to half past 12.

I say that spectacular thing is some kind of steel barrier which abruptly stops the dumbell bar, effectively launching the dumbbell violently upwards.

If it works as I think this is a violent wheel which makes lots of noise while it turns. The neighbours must love him...
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: mondrasek on April 07, 2009, 09:54:19 PM

1) The optimal torque pull is in the "belly" of the D
2) At the six o clock position something spectacular needs to happen to bring the dumbells up to half past 12.


AquariuZ, just some food for thought:  You are right that the weights generate the most clockwise torque when at three o'clock.  But they are also generating the most force (F = ma) at six o'clock.  This is where you say something spectacular needs to happen.  Unfortunately that Force is also in the wrong direction (down).

Enjoy,

M.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 07, 2009, 10:16:11 PM
AquariuZ, just some food for thought:  You are right that the weights generate the most clockwise torque when at three o'clock.  But they are also generating the most force (F = ma) at six o'clock.  This is where you say something spectacular needs to happen.  Unfortunately that Force is also in the wrong direction (down).

Exactly, spectacular because the dumbbell needs to rise straight against the full force of gravity at six o clock.

One thing I am almost certain of now: the weights are not on the wheel between the six and twelve o clock position

The "D" acceleration path gives away more than Sjack would have liked if I am correct. It must be dumbbells the way he describes them and the way the wheel looks from the side. Looking at 0:08 of the video the stopper might very well be a wooden beam as well. I measure about two fists room between the two parts, so that would be around 33 cm or some 10 inches.

Looking at the floor under the wheel there indeed seems to be some sort of placeholder (for a beam?) there, but the quality of the video is simply too poor to be sure.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: mondrasek on April 07, 2009, 10:43:47 PM

One thing I am almost certain of now: the weights are not on the wheel between the six and twelve o clock position


Well, still *in* the wheel, just no longer at the end of the slots by the rim, right?  Those slots go towards the center of the wheel and would act like a cam, forcing the weights to rise and move inward towards the axle if the weights ran into an obstruction just past six o'clock (back side of the D).  The weights could be accelerated upwards by the slots until at the mid-line of the wheel, to nine o'clock, right beside the axle.  Lifting the weight to there would use up 1/2 the momentum the weight produced while falling down from 12 to six on the torque producing portion of the cycle.  Then from this position the spectacular event must take place.  I get that from the website FAQs where he says, "In the topleft of the system the weight is accelerated (like a shot put)."  I take topleft to mean from nine to 12 o'clock.

He also says that the extra force is generated in the lower left of the system.  If this is between six and nine o'clock I think it must come from changing the path of the rotating weight so they begin their upward climb.  This changing of path must allow for the release of some of the kinetic energy to be used to launch a weight already at the nine o'clock position spectacularly (violently) upwards, and slightly to the right, or clockwise, like the arrow in his logo again?

M.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 07, 2009, 10:48:58 PM
I think the weights at six move straight up and pass over the axle and lock right into a position between twelve and one o clock. I am trying to draw that right now just to see if that is at all possible...
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: khabe on April 07, 2009, 11:34:03 PM
Hereby the only really working gravity machine I have seen,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVqKluBjcag&feature=related
Selfrunning one :o
Very Over Unity 8)
cheers,
khabe
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 07, 2009, 11:49:32 PM
Hereby the only really working gravity machine I have seen,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVqKluBjcag&feature=related
Selfrunning one :o
Very Over Unity 8)
cheers,
khabe

You know, that was very entertaining, even though it is well off topic. The way he gets up and walks away is classic in every sense of the word.

 8)

Now back to the drawing board...
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 08, 2009, 02:06:49 AM
Not sure if i understand it correctly, but could it be something like this?

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7175.msg169167#msg169167 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7175.msg169167#msg169167)
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 08, 2009, 06:59:04 AM
@mondrasek and @Cherryman,

There is, intuitively, something very interesting in your idea (I use singular since it appears to be basically the same idea in both). Thus, trivially, as @mr_bojangles says:

Quote
even if all the energy is used by the momentum of the ball falling, it will still only be able to return to the same height it was dropped from

However, if properly timed, it seems that for a moment, when the ball passes through the neutral point the ball is excluded from the system of interest to us, that is the rotating wheel, and the pull of gravity on the system of interest to us will differ from the pull on that system with the ball as part of it. That asymmetry may be thought of as what would keep the setup turning on its own only due to the existence of gravity and not due to an energy supply from a pre-existing energy reservoir. Again, this is only on an intuitive level. It has to be shown, however, how the conservation of momentum isn’t standing in the way; if violation of conservation of momentum is claimed then it has to be demonstrated experimentally.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Philip Hardcastle on April 08, 2009, 07:12:24 AM
@omnibus,

LOL

Aaaagh, you have converted to the flat earthers!.

As there is no energy in claimed, then Coe says it is just not a goer anyway you rig it.

Phil.

ps talking of asymmetry what did you think of my curled ballistic idea posted on the site (somewhere). No one has claimed the $1,000 I offered.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 08, 2009, 07:38:47 AM
@Philip Hardcastle,

Quote
As there is no energy in claimed, then Coe says it is just not a goer anyway you rig it.

Not always so. There are instances where energy appears only due to a proper construction of the machine enabling displacement under the action of a conservative force without the involvement of a pre-existing energy reservoir. Discontinuous production of such "energy out of nothing" can be readily demonstrated (this is violation of the "conservation" aspect of CoE, not of its "transformation" aspect which can never be violated). So far, however, I haven't seen experimentally demonstrated continuous production of "energy out of noting" (that is, continuous displacement caused by a conservative force only due to proper construction without pre-existing energy reservoir involved) because of various energy losses hindering closing the loop. Closing the loop is a very difficult purely engineering problem, still unresolved. What I said in my earlier posting concerning continuous production of excess energy is only a speculation, something on an intuitive level. Turning it into a working model in flesh and blood is something very, very difficult constructively, something that has never been achieved so far, as far as I know (The claims of that Bob in Canada, Sjack Abeling and several others are still unconfirmed and I'm not counting them at present as anything else but just pure noise)
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Philip Hardcastle on April 08, 2009, 07:46:28 AM
@omni,

I am intrigued, give me an example of an instance, please

Phil
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 08, 2009, 07:53:09 AM
@omni,

I am intrigued, give me an example of an instance, please

Phil

No, I'm not willing to discuss this again. This is a settled issue, discussed in numerous threads and forums. Not again. I'm all set with it and I'm looking forward to these new claims. As you can imagine, I would have paid exactly zero attention to these claims had I not been convinced energy "out of nothing" can be produced even if it's only discontinuously so far.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Philip Hardcastle on April 08, 2009, 08:00:28 AM
@Omni,

I was not attacking or being rude.

Hope I have not struck a bad note with you.

If you can tell me where I should look then that would be good.

Tell me what you think of Curled Ballistics. In fact have a few shots at me if you want, I need a bit of fire today to make the time go faster.

Regards Phil
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Grimer on April 08, 2009, 08:06:53 AM
@ spinner (continued)

It is easy to demonstrate that inertia (mass) can be polarized. If you have a black box full of gyros randomly oriented and in fixed gimbals then the rotational inertia around any axis is the same. If one now points half of the gyros north south and the other half south north so that all axis of rotation are parallel then the rotational inertia perpendicular the axis will be much less than the rotation inertial for planes parallel to the axes.

Also it is possible to demonstrate that one can get energy out of the gravitational field, that one can create a gravitational mill in principle, albeit not one that is economically sensible

You simply have the left side of a vertical annular tube filled with hydrogen and the right hemisphere with the same number of moles of helium. Both have the same number of nucleons but the hydrogen weighs more than the helium therefore the mill will accelerate until the gravitational energy released balances frictional losses at which point it will rotate at constant rpm.

At bottom dead centre you trigger the fusion reaction to turn the hydrogen into helium. You collect the energy from this and return it to the tube at top dead centre.  Energy inputs and outputs are equal. So the left side is always filled with hydrogen and the right with helium.

Now, obviously, such a machine is not a practical proposition. It is merely meant to illustrate the point the mass (inertia) and matter are not indissolubly coupled. Matter is conserved, mass isn't. Mass is a property of matter just like temperature. It's an accident not a substance to use the philosophical terms.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 08, 2009, 08:15:24 AM
@Philip Hardcastle,

I've written papers on that violation, I have a site with detailed argumentation and so on but I'm reluctant to get into this now. We'll talk about it when the time comes. At present I'd like to see whether or not these several claims for continuous production of excess energy are real. The closest so far that I've seen personally is Reidar Finsrud's but there are still some questions to be answered regarding his contraption. Of course, there cannot be anything more interesting than a gravity "powered" wheel, as advertised in this instance. Too bad everything is shrouded in such secrecy. They think they can make money off of it somehow, that is, off of something inherently free. If these constructors really care about their best interest, instead of hiding it, they should disclose it as soon as possible to as many people as they can possibly reach. This ill-conceived secrecy only hurts their cause, let alone the true interests of society.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 08, 2009, 10:59:16 AM
Not sure if i understand it correctly, but could it be something like this?

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7175.msg169167#msg169167 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7175.msg169167#msg169167)

Use the energy in the ball (Gravitational and rotary) to lift it independently from the main wheel, Slingshot it and reuse it whit gravity.
So you have the ball force only helping turning the wheel, taking the load off (or minimizing)  the wheel on the way up.


This just about sums it up. I think Abelings wheel is based on this principle and he uses dumbbells.

Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 08, 2009, 11:04:17 AM
This just about sums it up. I think Abelings wheel is based on this principle and he uses dumbbells.



Ohhhh... Then I have to hurry  ;D

I was playing with this and simular setups for a month now, had made a prototype with an old harddisk and some "knickers" but the timing and curvature is very difficult. The drawings i posted are just one of the many different setups i tried..  But i keep on trying and will post it in my half baked idears topic.

Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 08, 2009, 11:04:30 AM
The claims of that Bob in Canada, Sjack Abeling and several others are still unconfirmed and I'm not counting them at present as anything else but just pure noise)

Statement retracted with apologies.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 08, 2009, 11:35:29 AM
As I understand it you are in Groningen yourself.

How can you claim Abeling as "noise" when you are not even willing to find his number, contact him, and make an appointment. That is just thick headed and unless you are really willing to add to this project and do something in the real world you are losing whatever respect I had for you to start with.

Fast.

No, I'm not in Groningen at all (I'm not even in Europe). Nevertheless, as I told you, I'm more than willing to visit the guy. I wrote to him telling him that I'd like to visit him and see the device working. Unfortunately, I got no response. I think I told you that. What more can I do? Also, I tried to arrange a visit to the inventor Bob in Canada, I guess, a year ago or so. No luck there either. If you have any ideas just let me know. Mind you, until I see these devices personally or hear from other independent parties whom I trust that they have verified and, even better, reproduced these claims I'll continue to consider them as just noise, like I said.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 08, 2009, 12:02:24 PM
No, I'm not in Groningen at all (I'm not even in Europe).

Then I must have mis interpreted your statement you were a collegue of Eric Bergshoeff at the RUG (Rijks Universiteit Groningen). My apologies.

I know you tried contact via email, but that simply does not work because Sjack is working in his shop almost fulltime. His home number is available on the Internet (make the company address link to the name to the town), please remember timezone is EST+6. If you are really unable to find it I will send you a link via PM. I have his mobile but I cannot give that to you. It may help if you mention where you are calling from to get his attention. Best time to call is around 19:45 his time. Country code is 0031.

He is quite relaxed so you should get an interview or maybe even a visit, in any case I commend your willingness to travel that far.

Please check PM
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 08, 2009, 12:20:30 PM
Ohhhh... Then I have to hurry  ;D

The axle area poses a major hurdle.

I have no idea how to get from six to axle to twelve (full "D") unless the sleeve runs all the way through the wheel. If it does it will intersect with the axle.

 ???
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 08, 2009, 12:37:52 PM
The axle area poses a major hurdle.

I have no idea how to get from six to axle to twelve (full "D") unless the sleeve runs all the way through the wheel. If it does it will intersect with the axle.

 ???

With the slingshot you will go around te axle

And with the level lifting you wil go over the axle

I Have a short movie made with WM2D but it is to large to post here and i only have the demo version so i can't save the WM2D file.

Not that i have it working, but hey.. two knows more then one

Isn't it wise to continue this in a different topic, this one is about Sjack and we can only guess here about his setup untill we know more. Now you have "research" and comnments mixed up over here.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 08, 2009, 12:50:26 PM
@AquariuZ,

Thanks a lot for the phone number. Will call him asap and will let you know of the outcome.

@Cherryman,

Please, continue the discussion here. It'll be very messy and choppy otherwise. As for the WM2D file, maybe you can ask Stefan to reformat it. As far as I know he's an expert in using WM2D. It would be interesting to see it.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 08, 2009, 12:58:53 PM
Oke, I will try to show to two princeples i am working on.

This movie is about the slingshot, it is only a setup to see if  what happens

The next movie will be the positioning of the ball to get picked up by the swing arm, the difficulty will be to combine those together. I think maybe a 3D movement is needed.. not there yet. But that is hard to simulate.

Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 08, 2009, 01:12:16 PM
This one is about getting the ball into position, in this little example it is done by its own weight. So if you ad rotation to it , it will only go faster and easier.

Hope i make sense.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYH1G6ewGRc
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 08, 2009, 01:26:15 PM
Now the trick is to combine movie one and two.

Unfortunatly this will not work in WM2D ( At least not with my knoledge)

I do have a somewhat different setup with is more fixed..  I will see if i van make a little movie about that to.

Edit:

This is one wheel, i think you will need at least two (with the ball at the oposite  place) or more so you can overcome the dead points.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 08, 2009, 01:35:45 PM
Cherryman is looking good

Here a snapshot of abeling's D The green line represents the path of the weights in the wheel, an almost perfect D shape

I can get the dual weights (I am positive it is a dumbbell system) from A to B without any problem whatsoever, but what gets me is the leap from B to C.

Please notice the gaps between the weights just after 18:00 and at 23:50. The "something spectacular" is a jumping dumbbell (I think).
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 08, 2009, 01:41:58 PM
This one is about getting the ball into position, in this little example it is done by its own weight. So if you ad rotation to it , it will only go faster and easier.

Hope i make sense.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYH1G6ewGRc

I love the spiral. Now if somehow you can stetch it past the axle towards one o clock you may be in business.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 08, 2009, 01:44:56 PM
The use of dumbbells could very good be, because it's bar shape will allow you to disconnect them from the wheels as well, as seem as the rail in my drawing.. Hmm I'm studdying the picture you posted..  and in the meantime i will show you another "concept" based on the same principle , i hope within the next half hour.

I do think however he uses also the radial? force and acceleration  (i should learn some more technical English i suppose)
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 08, 2009, 01:47:21 PM
I love the spiral. Now if somehow you can stetch it past the axle towards one o clock you may be in business.

Not sure what u are saying, can you be a little more specifick?
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: sushimoto on April 08, 2009, 02:00:47 PM
I love the spiral. Now if somehow you can stetch it past the axle towards one o clock you may be in business.

... And i love the creativity which is ongoing here.
Hope you guys keep on going the good work.
Maybe some devils will come to desroy your positive thinking,
but you can tell them that a Nuclear-Reactor is in fact a giant Waterboiler to drive a steam engine.
That CAN NOT BE the best possible answer of well educated engineers and academics
for  the energy demands of the world. ....
Since hundreds or maybe thousands of years of creative findings and
maybe sometimes infantle experiments, creativity and merit is the
only thing which counts at the very end...

:)

Best regards,
sushimoto
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 08, 2009, 02:24:21 PM
OK, here is the next one.

This time i used an enclosed rod to make the process more under control.

Notice that the ball going up the ramp is actually going faster then the rod, so it will not bother the movement of the wheel, and will hit the wheel again after 1200 hour with an accelerated force.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBygA2vOHx4
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 08, 2009, 02:28:26 PM
It's not perfect yet, but i do think there could be some possibilities, i have tried al kinds of different shapes.

At one time i pushed in a rotation force of 4 and i got a return of 4.004  ;D  (Without wind drag)   Unfortunatly i cannot save the WM2D files, but i'm still learning.


Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 08, 2009, 02:36:01 PM
@sushimoto, very well put:

Quote
but you can tell them that a Nuclear-Reactor is in fact a giant Waterboiler to drive a steam engine.
That CAN NOT BE the best possible answer of well educated engineers and academics
for  the energy demands of the world. ....
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 08, 2009, 02:48:22 PM
OK, here is the next one.

This time i used an enclosed rod to make the process more under control.

Notice that the ball going up the ramp is actually going faster then the rod, so it will not bother the movement of the wheel, and will hit the wheel again after 1200 hour with an accelerated force.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBygA2vOHx4

This is great!  Maybe the barrier in the Abeling wheel is indeed curved, but then again the path of the weights would no longer fit the "D" pattern.

I can try and recreate this in wm2d, I would first make a few arms more and see what happens if you take the motor out

You have exactly visualized my thoughts on stretching the spiral in your previous video, keep up the good work
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 08, 2009, 02:50:53 PM
This is great!  Maybe the barrier in the Abeling wheel is indeed curved, but then again the path of the weights would no longer fit the "D" pattern.

You have exactly visualized my thoughts on stretching the spiral in your previous video, keep up the good work

Well i'm not visualizing you'rs or Sjacks idear.  This is work i dit past month.  I have a few more setups, but because I cannot save the WM2D files i have to create everything again from startover.

But i'm glad you like it. 
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 08, 2009, 02:57:15 PM
Well i'm not visualizing you'rs or Sjacks idear.  This is work i dit past month.  I have a few more setups, but because I cannot save the WM2D files i have to create everything again from startover.

But i'm glad you like it. 

I like it because I see serious overlaps in the way I think the Abeling Wheel works...

Just thought of this: canyou try and make the barrier straight with a slight curve to the right past the axle and see what happens?

I am just starting a new model. Did you see my previous wm2d model? Thoughts?

Here it is again the first try at the shot-put principle in wm2d: http://www.gigasize.com/get.php?d=yz59m4y7wqd
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 08, 2009, 03:00:08 PM
I like it because I see serious overlaps in the way I think the Abeling Wheel works...

Just thought of this: canyou try and make the barrier straight with a slight curve to the right past the axle and see what happens?

I am just starting a new model. Did you see my previous wm2d model? Thoughts?

I'm sorry but i cannot open WM2D files, because i only have the demo version. So i did not see them, would like to, do you have a movie ?

And i can do something you like, but you have to be more specifick.. a drawing maybe?

Or did you mean something like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8QK8w2sw8Y&feature=channel_page
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 08, 2009, 03:11:21 PM
I'm sorry but i cannot open WM2D files, because i only have the demo version. So i did not see them, would like to, do you have a movie ?

And i can do something you like, but you have to be more specifick.. a drawing maybe?

Or did you mean something like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8QK8w2sw8Y&feature=channel_page

Yes this is what I mean, try and see what happens without the motor driving the wheel (just pin it). And a straight barrier which curves to the right past the axle.

I do not know how to make a movie from a running wm2d model unfortunatly.

How do you create the arms? Are those polygons? I find it difficult to work with hollows in wm2d
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 08, 2009, 03:23:08 PM
Yes this is what I mean, try and see what happens without the motor driving the wheel (just pin it). And a straight barrier which curves to the right past the axle.

I do not know how to make a movie from a running wm2d model unfortunately.

How do you create the arms? Are those polygons? I find it difficult to work with hollows in wm2d

I Created the movies with a free and simple screen capture program:

http://www.nchsoftware.com/capture/index.html

I use Rhino3D to design the structure and then import it in WM2D.  I have found a workaround for the hollows , i make a tiny opening in the loop so it is a polygon.

Try to make the opening as small as possible and if possible in a place where you will not have contact with the ball so it will not influence the setup.

Here is a picture to show the concept:


Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 08, 2009, 03:30:44 PM
I got some requests about sharing the files..

I have no problem with that...  But i don't like it being called Abeling  >:(  I haven't heard or seen from him untill yesterday... And just apart from a few vague pictures we don't know anything about that machine.



So as i'm not trying to keep this for myself, i do have some vanity..  So i call it the K.A.D. system!   ;D
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: hartiberlin on April 08, 2009, 03:38:15 PM
Great designs !

Okay, let the WM2D files coming, so we all can work on it.

Maybe we just call it some kind of modified Bessler wheel.

It seems this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8QK8w2sw8Y

will work the best , when it is using the centrifugal forces,
so it needs at least a good speed.
Running too slow and it will not work.

Does anybody see a reason, why this should not work ?

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 08, 2009, 03:52:55 PM
I Will do that shortly, have to install something first  ;)

I do have a version also with a more stable ball

K.A.D. ;D demo 5 :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSaKQEn0Wwc
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 08, 2009, 04:29:33 PM
Great designs !

Okay, let the WM2D files coming, so we all can work on it.

Maybe we just call it some kind of modified Bessler wheel.

It seems this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8QK8w2sw8Y

will work the best , when it is using the centrifugal forces,
so it needs at least a good speed.
Running too slow and it will not work.

Does anybody see a reason, why this should not work ?

Regards, Stefan.

Well for now i think to much energy is still lost by the "bouncing" of the ball, I'm working on a refinement for that.

I will rebuilt the K.A.D. model you liked, (Because i couldn't save it before)  and will post it for you guys to play with,

And call me hardheaded, but i give you my designs without any restrictions.. besides the name~!  I think that's fare enough! 
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 08, 2009, 05:11:13 PM
Okey, i quickly rebuilt two models Of the K.A.D.  ;D design for you guys to play with, lets hope we find something nice!

- Remark.  I noticed the ramp is a little steep in the beginning, i should make the curve better.  (working on that)


PS.  I don't claim this works.. It's just a way i see potention in.

Good luck and share the results!
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 08, 2009, 05:17:10 PM
I like it because I see serious overlaps in the way I think the Abeling Wheel works...

Just thought of this: canyou try and make the barrier straight with a slight curve to the right past the axle and see what happens?

I am just starting a new model. Did you see my previous wm2d model? Thoughts?

Here it is again the first try at the shot-put principle in wm2d: http://www.gigasize.com/get.php?d=yz59m4y7wqd

Wow! I  :o can open it now, it looks great!   I will studie it some more! 
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 08, 2009, 08:16:08 PM
@AquariuZ,

I just spoke with Sjack Abeling. He told me something to the effect that he is bound by a contract with his investors which does not allow him to show the motor to the outside world. All the information about his motor at this point can be obtained only from his website. He said that he's expecting to say more about the project in the coming months. I was curious as to whether his machine can be scaled down to a laboratory model but as far as I understand they only have the powerful ones geared toward industrial production. I wished him success in his undertaking and he agreed to give him a call in a month or two when he'll probably be allowed to say more about the project.

That was in essence our conversation and, as you see, investors are again standing in the way of science. A similar situation occurred with Mike Brady (Perendev) a couple years ago. I had several conversations with him to arrange a visit but in the end his lawyers decided the motor shouldn't be shown to anyone. If you remember he canceled a scheduled presentation. Same thing happened with Steorn -- I actually went to London to see the demo at Kinetica museum only to find out it's been canceled. One other place, except for Finsrud's machine in Oslo, where I saw a demonstration was in Novi Sad where Veljko Milkovic.showed me his device which isn't a self-runner unfortunately. Wonder what happened to Bob in Canada. His was the first modern gravity driven motor claimed to be demonstrable. I think Stefan was in contact with him but don't know if there's any development there.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 08, 2009, 09:27:59 PM
Great designs !

Okay, let the WM2D files coming, so we all can work on it.

Maybe we just call it some kind of modified Bessler wheel.

It seems this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8QK8w2sw8Y

will work the best , when it is using the centrifugal forces,
so it needs at least a good speed.
Running too slow and it will not work.

Does anybody see a reason, why this should not work ?

Regards, Stefan.

Hi Stefan, can you please comment on my concept guess (page 7 I believe) it includes a crude wm2d model.

Even though this thread is about the Abeling Wheel, the possible overlaps with Cherryman's KAD and the core principle (the barrier) seem to be the only way to get the "D" shape as discussed on the previous page.

I think we should take that very specific path of the weight as it rotates with the wheel and gets "shot-putted" (Term: Abeling) and concentrate on that in trying to reproduce the Abeling Wheel.

I really like cherrymans models, and am working on another abeling concept guess using some of cherryman's ideas.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 08, 2009, 09:33:49 PM
@AquariuZ,

I just spoke with Sjack Abeling. He told me something to the effect that he is bound by a contract with his investors which does not allow him to show the motor to the outside world. All the information about his motor at this point can be obtained only from his website. He said that he's expecting to say more about the project in the coming months. I was curious as to whether his machine can be scaled down to a laboratory model but as far as I understand they only have the powerful ones geared toward industrial production. I wished him success in his undertaking and he agreed to give him a call in a month or two when he'll probably be allowed to say more about the project.

That was in essence our conversation and, as you see, investors are again standing in the way of science. A similar situation occurred with Mike Brady (Perendev) a couple years ago. I had several conversations with him to arrange a visit but in the end his lawyers decided the motor shouldn't be shown to anyone. If you remember he canceled a scheduled presentation. Same thing happened with Steorn -- I actually went to London to see the demo at Kinetica museum only to find out it's been canceled. One other place, except for Finsrud's machine in Oslo, where I saw a demonstration was in Novi Sad where Veljko Milkovic.showed me his device which isn't a self-runner unfortunately. Wonder what happened to Bob in Canada. His was the first modern gravity driven motor claimed to be demonstrable. I think Stefan was in contact with him but don't know if there's any development there.

Thanks for that, I hope you have gotten a better picture of him at least.

And ofcourse we will lose the invention to Corporate unless we work together and reproduce, even though there is not much to go on but the words on the site and the scarse video footage.

I believe we can do it though, even if that seems wishful thinking. Abeling has left a lot of clues, the major one being the path of the weights.

With that:
"D" path
Dumbbells (unless someone has a better idea)
Barrier (Curved or not)
16 slots consisting of two types which look like boots
wheel consisting of two identical layers

We can go far. Have another look at the path (Taken from the video and overlaid with text by me)
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 08, 2009, 09:39:59 PM
Thanks for that, I hope you have gotten a better picture of him at least.

And of course we will lose the invention to Corporate unless we work together and reproduce, even though there is not much to go on but the words on the site and the scarce video footage.

I believe we can do it though, even if that seems wishful thinking. Abeling has left a lot of clues, the major one being the path of the weights.

With that:
"D" path
Dumbbells (unless someone has a better idea)
Barrier (Curved or not)
16 slots consisting of two types which look like boots
wheel consisting of two identical layers

We can go far

Hey Aquarius,

From what i can make of you're model.. I think in your design the friction and the weight to get the dumbbell upwards the steep path is maybe too much.  On the other hand.. i do like the concept..  It rises fast and straight..  But with large weights..   This would be a brutal machine...  How can you make that from glass??

So i guess the solution must be in a smoother path..  without to many "impact" moments.

Just my two cents

Keep up the good work!
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 08, 2009, 09:44:31 PM
When i look at the video footage , and see that he has different "pockets" at the outside ..

Could it be that going upwards they weights are in the round "pockets" and downwards in the oval pockets?  Or vice versa?...

Maybe there is only a very small D-shape, but to contrast the principle they present it as a D ?

Wat do you think?
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 08, 2009, 09:50:28 PM
The most interesting about the picture of Sjack is that he has 9 weights on the "going down" side and 7 at the "going up" side..     At first i did think it was just a simplified picture of the trajectory of the balls... But the 16 balls are equal to the number "16" on the video..

Puzzles , puzzles..   ;D
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Alexioco on April 08, 2009, 10:20:10 PM
also it seems to me that by having the weights rise up in a straight line rather than up to the axle and around, the weights are taking a shortcut to get to the top meaning less energy?
If the weights raised up at the same speed as the ascending side of the wheel, then i think the weights would be travling faster than the wheel when they lift because the wheel area by the axle is moving slower than the outside of the wheel...

Edit: Thinking about it, if the weights take that shortcut up (straight) then less weights rise as more weights fall

Alex
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 08, 2009, 10:27:19 PM
also it seems to me that by having the weights rise up in a straight line rather than up to the axle and around, the weights are taking a shortcut to get to the top meaning less energy?
If the weights raised up at the same speed as the ascending side of the wheel, then i think the weights would be travling faster than the wheel when they lift because the wheel area by the axle is moving slower than the outside of the wheel...

Edit: Thinking about it, if the weights take that shortcut up (straight) then less weights rise as more weights fall

Alex

Yes Alex, that is true, you can see it in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBygA2vOHx4&feature=channel_page

As you can see the ball accelerates and leaves the bottom of the swing arm when it is going up the ramp = shorter route.

Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 08, 2009, 11:06:08 PM
The most interesting about the picture of Sjack is that he has 9 weights on the "going down" side and 7 at the "going up" side..     At first i did think it was just a simplified picture of the trajectory of the balls... But the 16 balls are equal to the number "16" on the video..

Puzzles , puzzles..   ;D

Nice  :o
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 08, 2009, 11:27:17 PM
BREAKTHROUGH

I have just realized something.

What if there are moving weights and static weights moving up into position ONE SHOT AT A TIME.

No need for explosive action all the way up, just kinetic transfer..

I´ll try and explain: Remember the little toy where you have 6 steel balls suspended from a wire and you take one, let it fall and the last one on the other side gets shot-putted?

THIS IS IT.

The holes on the side are to stack the weights inside a holding system which is placed just left of the axle. (Pre-start) The placeholder is for 7 dumbbells.
The other nine dumbbells are then loaded at the following positions

13:00 weight number 1 of 16
13:30 weight number 2 of 16
14:00 weight number 3 of 16
14:30 weight number 4 of 16
15:00 weight number 5 of 16
15:30 weight number 6 of 16
16:00 weight number 7 of 16
16:30 weight number 8 of 16
17:00 weight number 9 of 16

Now visualize 7 stacked dumbbells in a holder just to the left of the axle.

[WEIGHT NUMBER 16 OF 16] <-- TOP OF STACK
[WEIGHT NUMBER 15 OF 16]
[WEIGHT NUMBER 14 OF 16]
[WEIGHT NUMBER 13 OF 16]
[WEIGHT NUMBER 12 OF 16]
[WEIGHT NUMBER 11 OF 16]
[WEIGHT NUMBER 10 OF 16] <-- BOTTOM OF STACK

They are stacked and in direct contact with each other

Weight 10 is just up and to the left of the six o clock socket
Weight 16 is just below and to the left of the twelve o clock position

THIS IS EXACTLY WHERE HE DESCRIBES THE ACTION IN THE FAQ

Let go of the wheel or push it.

the 17:00 weight moves to 18:00, leaves its socket when it encounters the barrier/holder and then makes a direct hard contact with weight number ten, which is on the bottom of the stack. The kinetic energy is transferred all the way to weight number 16 which is on top of the stack and forces weight number 16 into the holding socket at around 12:30.

Weight number 16 becomes weight number one.

I just slapped my forehead, because he did say "Kogelstoten". Shot-put did not mean anything to me but you can compare "Kogelstoten" to a Jeux-de-boules ball violently displacing another ball and taking its place.

Cherryman your 7-9 remark just now removed the cogwebs from my brain, thank you my friend.

This I can indeed make a model of, I am getting excited now.

O, you noticed? (Clicking on WM.EXE)

 ;D
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 08, 2009, 11:33:07 PM
BREAKTHROUGH

I have just realized something.

What if there are moving weights and static weights moving up into position ONE SHOT AT A TIME.

No need for explosive action all the way up, just kinetic transfer..

I´ll try and explain: Remember the little toy where you have 6 steel balls suspended from a wire and you take one, let it fall and the last one on the other side gets shot-putted?

THIS IS IT.

The holes on the side are to stack the weights inside a holding system which is placed just left of the axle. (Pre-start) The placeholder is for 7 dumbbells.
The other nine dumbbells are then loaded at the following positions

13:00 weight number 1 of 16
13:30 weight number 2 of 16
14:00 weight number 3 of 16
14:30 weight number 4 of 16
15:00 weight number 5 of 16
15:30 weight number 6 of 16
16:00 weight number 7 of 16
16:30 weight number 8 of 16
17:00 weight number 9 of 16

Now visualize 7 stacked dumbbells in a holder to the left.

[WEIGHT NUMBER 16 OF 16] <-- TOP OF STACK
[WEIGHT NUMBER 15 OF 16]
[WEIGHT NUMBER 14 OF 16]
[WEIGHT NUMBER 13 OF 16]
[WEIGHT NUMBER 12 OF 16]
[WEIGHT NUMBER 11 OF 16]
[WEIGHT NUMBER 10 OF 16] <-- BOTTOM OF STACK

They are stacked and in direct contact with each other

Weight 10 is just up and to the left of the six o clock socket
Weight 16 is just below and to the left of the twelve o clock position

THIS IS EXACTLY WHERE HE DESCRIBES THE ACTION IN THE FAQ

Let go of the wheel or push it.

the 17:00 weight moves to 18:00, leaves its socket when it encounters the barrier/holder and then makes a direct hard contact with weight number ten, which is on the bottom of the stack. The kinetic energy is transferred all the way to weight number 16 which is on top of the stack and forces weight number 16 into the holding socket at around 12:30.

Weight number 16 becomes weight number one.

I just slapped my forehead, because he did say "Kogelstoten". Shot-put did not mean anything to me but you can compare "Kogelstoten" to a Jeux-de-boules ball violently displacing another ball and taking its place.

Cherryman your 7-9 remark just now removed the cogwebs from my brain, thank you my friend.

This I can indeed make a model of, I am getting excited now.

O, you noticed? (Clicking on WM.EXE)

 ;D

Hey Aquariuz,

I tried the kenetic energie ting..  Just today... from you're D remark.  But i could not get it to simulate properly. 

I started to simulate indeed the little toy, that was already a problem.  Then i tried the same setup in D position, with a wheel but my problem was that there wasn't enough energy, AND the stack will try to move downwards...

So i hope you will found a solution for that! 
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 08, 2009, 11:38:30 PM
Here is a screenshot:

Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 08, 2009, 11:41:28 PM
I started to simulate indeed the little toy, that was already a problem.  Then i tried the same setup in D position, with a wheel but my problem was that there wasn't enough energy, AND the stack will try to move downwards...

The stack is held into place by the rotating arms wait and see so I can show you

The point where the balls touch created a powerful kinetic jolt moving just the top weight

Modelling now... Make sure to select "Steel" as your material for the spheres.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Alexioco on April 08, 2009, 11:44:41 PM
Dont know if this helps but I have studied the youtube video (the one without the subtitles) so I could see as much of the wheel as I could, I have drawn out the wheels frame work, you can check it with the video to make sure I havnt got somthing wrong but as far as I can see, it seems right...

On the footage, the is a straight piece of wood the runs diaganol along the wheel, I dont know what thats for, unless its just to support the wheel, so I have left that out for now.



Alex
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 08, 2009, 11:44:48 PM
The stack is held into place by the rotating arms wait and see so I can show you

The point where the balls touch created a powerful kinetic jolt moving just the top weight

Modelling now... Make sure to select "Steel" as your material for the spheres.

It sounds good!  Maybe i did something wrong.  I hope you get it!

And steel.. Not sure.. what i used.. i Think default.

I'm curiuos to you're rotating arms. 

Hurry!  ;D
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: yaz on April 08, 2009, 11:45:50 PM
Here's some interesting stuff I found:

There is a popular toy consisting of five steel balls, all of the same size and mass, hanging side by side in a row (many people keep them on their desks). Pull out the end ball and drop it against the row, and one pops of the other end. If two balls are pulled aside and dropped together, two pop out from the other end. The balls seem to count! How do they accomplish this trick?


The Newton's Cradle demonstrates the principle of conservation of energy. When one ball is swung into the other four, nearly all the kinetic energy is transferred through all the others to the ball on the far side which then swings out away from the others. When TWO balls are swung out the energy is doubled. When that doubled energy is transferred through the other balls, it is large enough that it can propel both balls at the far end. The whole thing works because each ball weighs the same as its fellows. If you used balls of different weights all sorts of funny interactions would occur.[/b
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 08, 2009, 11:57:05 PM
On the footage, the is a straight piece of wood the runs diaganol along the wheel, I dont know what thats for, unless its just to support the wheel, so I have left that out for now.

I missed that, do you mean inside the wheel or outside the halves?

Anyway wm2d is not behaving as expected with regards to the transfer of kinetic energy  >:(

The simple toy I described does not work as expected in wm2d as mentioned by cherryman as well.

I was hoping to simulate this, but looks like I cannot (at least not with this software).
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 08, 2009, 11:58:44 PM
Good tip AquariuZ, I tried the steel and that works better, but i'm still curious about the moving beams.

Also, if you want to do this with dumbbells, you will have to have a super exact outline to let both sides collapse at the same time... 

Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 08, 2009, 11:59:16 PM
Here's some interesting stuff I found:

There is a popular toy consisting of five steel balls, all of the same size and mass, hanging side by side in a row (many people keep them on their desks). Pull out the end ball and drop it against the row, and one pops of the other end. If two balls are pulled aside and dropped together, two pop out from the other end. The balls seem to count! How do they accomplish this trick?


Thats about exactly what I posted 10 minutes ago.  8)

Great minds think alike.

I did not know this was called a Newtons Cradle.

So, adding to the list of clues:

Possible Newtons Cradle holding the dumbbells in a semi-static configuration to the left of the axle.

Check.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 09, 2009, 12:00:02 AM
I missed that, do you mean inside the wheel or outside the halves?

Anyway wm2d is not behaving as expected with regards to the transfer of kinetic energy  >:(

The simple toy I described does not work as expected in wm2d as mentioned by cherryman as well.

I was hoping to simulate this, but looks like I cannot (at least not with this software).

Hold on...  I might have something.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Alexioco on April 09, 2009, 12:00:26 AM
Now that is a very clever idea, i am impressed, that seems like it should work at the moment  :o well done :)

edit: just thought, what will lift the second from top weight up?


Alex
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 09, 2009, 12:02:48 AM
Found this one on the WM2D website, it might help you. 


Could you in the meantime explane the "beam" idear that would regulate them? 
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 09, 2009, 12:04:16 AM
Good tip AquariuZ, I tried the steel and that works better, but i'm still curious about the moving beams.

Also, if you want to do this with dumbbells, you will have to have a super exact outline to let both sides collapse at the same time... 



It all fits... It is workshop time unless I figure out how to make wm2d behave...
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 09, 2009, 12:05:12 AM
It all fits... It is workshop time unless I figure out how to make wm2d behave...

See the attached file with my previous post.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 09, 2009, 12:07:12 AM
edit: just thought, what will lift the second from top weight up?

The next weight in line. They will all change position in the "cradle".

Top becomes first in 12:30 socket, second becomes top and so on

I like that word: cradle.

Abelings Cradle
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 09, 2009, 12:09:17 AM
The next weight in line. They will all change position in the "cradle".

Top becomes first in 12:30 socket, second becomes top and so on

I like that word: cradle.

Abelings Cradle

Good name! Ah well what's in a name  ;D

Could you post a drawing, i'm still curious about the setup. 
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Alexioco on April 09, 2009, 12:11:54 AM
Thats great thinking AquariuZ, So the end force of the falling weight pushes the next one off the edge and lifting the second one ready to be pushed off the edge, will the falling weight gather enough force to do that though, also, what keeps the bottom weight from sliding back due to the force of the above weights? Dont forget on newtons cradle, when one sphre is swung, only one lifts, two must swing, to lift two...

Keep it up, seems really good

Alex
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 09, 2009, 12:12:12 AM
Found this one on the WM2D website, it might help you. 


Could you in the meantime explane the "beam" idear that would regulate them? 

So it is possible then, I need to check the specs in that model thanks.

I will try to explain, imagine the boot coming in at 18:00 with weight #9 lodged in the socket (same on the other side or the mirror). The weights are held together via a bar, hence dumbbell. The bar touches the center barrier and weight #9 is dislodged into the heel of the socket (same on the mirror side). The momentum pushes the bar along the barrier in an upwards motion until #9 makes contact with #10.

There is something holding the other weights in place in the cradle, but that should be easily found what that is once the concept is explored in full.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: hansvonlieven on April 09, 2009, 12:13:29 AM
If you have a look at Newton's cradle you will notice that only the first and the last ball move, the others stay where they are. In order to get motion of the wheel you must move the entire stack. This a Newton's cradle effect cannot do.

Hans von Lieven
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 09, 2009, 12:25:52 AM
If you have a look at Newton's cradle you will notice that only the first and the last ball move, the others stay where they are. In order to get motion of the wheel you must move the entire stack. This a Newton's cradle effect cannot do.

Hans von Lieven

You are right, now what do you think those holes in the wheels are for between the sockets on the wheel.

WHAT IF THEY ARE HOLDERS SOMEHOW FOR "PEGS" PUSHING THE STACK

I´m almost sure it is a Newtons cradle, just not sure at this point how the stack is kept in place and displaced. One thing I can think of is that once the top one is catapulted away into position, the gap created on the top is filled with the second one when the whole stack moves up a notch.

Just do not know how, but I feel the holes in wheel itself between the "boots" are a factor.

I am looking at Alex´s picture and trying to figure it out
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 09, 2009, 12:31:40 AM
Dont know if this helps but I have studied the youtube video (the one without the subtitles) so I could see as much of the wheel as I could, I have drawn out the wheels frame work, you can check it with the video to make sure I havnt got somthing wrong but as far as I can see, it seems right...

This should the the HQ version of that video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjSFjfWy1h4&fmt=18

Can you please check and see if you notice something else or anything you wish to alter to the picture?

One thing I wish to mention is that there are two types of sockets.

TYPE 1 looks like a tight fit with a toe and heel
TYPE 2 looks more open like wooden shoe "Klomp"

TYPE I:
Slots 1,3,5,7,9,11,13 & 15

TYPE II:
Slots 2,4,6,8,10,12,14 & 16

I´ll be damned if I know why...
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Alexioco on April 09, 2009, 12:32:27 AM
You are right, now what do you think those holes in the wheels are for between the sockets on the wheel.

WHAT IF THEY ARE HOLDERS SOMEHOW FOR "PEGS" PUSHING THE STACK

I´m almost sure it is a Newtons cradle, just not sure at this point how the stack is kept in place and displaced. One thing I can think of is that once the top one is catapulted away into position, the gap created on the top is filled with the second one when the whole stack moves up a notch.

Just do not know how, but I feel the holes in wheel itself between the "boots" are a factor.

I am looking at Alex´s picture and trying to figure it out


Maybe if the "D" shape was longer, but not higher, so that alot more weights are pushing down to lift the stak up causing one t roll down thus lifting the stack again, I think this a really good idea you came up  with

Alex
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Alexioco on April 09, 2009, 12:36:31 AM
On the footage, the is a straight piece of wood the runs diaganol along the wheel, I dont know what thats for, unless its just to support the wheel, so I have left that out for now.

Edit: Ok, I noticed something that needed changing, i shall continue to look at it, it seems now that its exactly the same, i cant see any difference now, but i will have another look just incase.


Alex
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: khabe on April 09, 2009, 12:51:03 AM
Wellknown Air Vane Motors - even when ball bearings installed on the top of vanes - no way it runs self ...
sad,
khabe
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: hansvonlieven on April 09, 2009, 12:51:42 AM
You are right, now what do you think those holes in the wheels are for between the sockets on the wheel.

WHAT IF THEY ARE HOLDERS SOMEHOW FOR "PEGS" PUSHING THE STACK



Pushing the stack with what? You have already expended any potential energy that was there on your Newton's cradle effect. That part is easy, it is also the part that requires the least energy. Moving the stack takes many times the energy required to bounce one ball. Where is that coming from?

The guy is another Chas Campbell.

Hans von Lieven
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Alexioco on April 09, 2009, 01:18:02 AM
Ok here is the wheel again, notice that the edges are now straight (except for the top round part) I have drawn one by the side of the wheel exactly how they should be just incase i have not drawn them all precisely.

As far as I know, it is exactly the same now, "if" there is anything different, then time will tell through watching the footage...

Edit: You probably know this but, the reason I have coloured them black is to indicate that they are cut outs.

There are two wheels side by side, both wheels have this "cut out" pattern on them, I'm wandering weather the weights roll inbetween the two wheels, like clindrical weights with poles each end so they can roll. Just a thought, might be wrong...

Alex
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 09, 2009, 01:23:09 AM
Snapshot.

Things i cannot place marked in red.

This could very well be a construction which is supposed to go between the plates.

Look at the bottom one, rotate left, what do we see? Looks like a stopper barrier to me.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 09, 2009, 01:26:09 AM
Pushing the stack with what? You have already expended any potential energy that was there on your Newton's cradle effect. That part is easy, it is also the part that requires the least energy. Moving the stack takes many times the energy required to bounce one ball. Where is that coming from?

The guy is another Chas Campbell.

Hans von Lieven

Sure...

Anything else you would like to constructively add, or is this the extent of your creativity?

Never mind.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Alexioco on April 09, 2009, 01:29:05 AM
if you look at my above post, you will see the changes, also, the picutre you posted are good, it looks like some bars near the bottom, run through the wheel, weights may be able to swing on them, dont quite know how that fits with the pattern though, hmm...

Alex
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 09, 2009, 01:32:30 AM
If you see as I see, these two stands slide out, are pushed together and slid back in between the two halves to...

...form the cradle.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Alexioco on April 09, 2009, 01:38:22 AM
oh yes, i can see where it curves at the bottom, then going up. maybe i can get the shape of the two pieces each side which are pulled out, it curves at the bottom quarter (6 to 9 on the clock) then at 9 it seems to go straight into the axle.

Alex
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 09, 2009, 01:54:53 AM
oh yes, i can see where it curves at the bottom, then going up. maybe i can get the shape of the two pieces each side which are pulled out, it curves at the bottom quarter (6 to 9 on the clock) then at 9 it seems to go straight into the axle.

Alex

Side view (more or less)

Red is just part of the regular wheel stand
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 09, 2009, 02:00:25 AM
I Hope the kinetic thing works out,

in the meanwhile i am trying to get the K.A.D. system to work better. (Never bet on one horse  ;D )

Due to the restrictions of the WM2D program , i had to gear similar setups together because the program does not work (or i do not know how) work in 3D.

I keep you guys informed about the progress, but now i do need some sleep..   :o





Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 09, 2009, 02:20:02 AM
When i look at the pictures from the movie, t seems that his "curve" is made out of two peaces with a gap between them, the only reason for that gap i can think of is that the upper "curve" can move......  flip, turn .. or something...

Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Alexioco on April 09, 2009, 02:20:31 AM
Seems ok, i cant quite put it all together though, i can't understand why those round holes are in the pattern, they must have some relation to the rest of the pattern, this one really has me stuck :P

ahhh I may aswel say it, I am currently working on a wheel of my own, its not finished yet, i was going to test it then post it on here to save people wating but, it wont be much longer now, i found a very simple yet effective way of making weights lift themselves up to the outer wheel, then back in to the axle all on their own without any thing to control them, they control themselves, while one weight it at the rim, the other is at the axle, they keep swapping places,... I'm wandering if this chap has found something similiar, i found this by mistake, dont know if it will work yet though, i dont like saying until i have tested it, i shall post it on here soon as its done, i'm sure we will benefit from it some how :)

Alex
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 09, 2009, 02:23:03 AM
Seems ok, i cant quite put it all together though, i can't understand why those round holes are in the pattern, they must have some relation to the rest of the pattern, this one really has me stuck :P

ahhh I may aswel say it, I am currently working on a wheel of my own, its not finished yet, i was going to test it then post it on here to save people wating but, it wont be much longer now, i found a very simple yet effective way of making weights lift themselves up to the outer wheel, then back in to the axle all on their own without any thing to control them, they control themselves, while one weight it at the rim, the other is at the axle, they keep swapping places,... I'm wandering if this chap has found something similiar, i found this by mistake, dont know if it will work yet though, i dont like saying until i have tested it, i shall post it on here soon as its done, i'm sure we will benefit from it some how :)

Alex

Sounds good Alex!  Feel free to share it anytime   ;D
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 09, 2009, 02:25:21 AM
Alex, sinds his setup at the picture is made out of wood...  It could be that those holes are to balance the wheels, it is not easy to saw completely balanced wheel out of wood..  So maybe they do not have a function in the system, but are just a way to balance it. 
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Alexioco on April 09, 2009, 02:31:01 AM
sounds quite reasonable, the last wheel i made, the axle was not centre so the wheel turned on it owns which was anoying, i hope it doesn do this on my new one, shouldnt be long to its done though, its simple enough lol

I wander if the holes are supposed to have weights in? at the beggining, its says that the weights have been removed due to security reasons... hmmm maybe its a kind of fly-wheel? which help the weights to take their path/movement?

Alex
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: hartiberlin on April 09, 2009, 02:34:57 AM
Hi ALL,
I changed the KAD 23 WM2D file into a wheel,
that just gets a push from a weight that falls on it and then
the wheels should keep spinning on,
but it just does not work.

3 slots are just too few to get it to work.
There is always too much drag from the weight which must be lifted from 6 to 11 o´clock.

Attached is the WM2D file and a screenshot.
I have already exported an AVI movie with the Export function of
WM2D via the XVID codec and will post this now on youtube.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Alexioco on April 09, 2009, 02:40:04 AM
nice one stefan, ill watch that when its uploaded.
Anyway, im off to bed all, im dog tired  :-\ lol


nighty night

Alex
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 09, 2009, 02:41:05 AM
When i look at the pictures from the movie, t seems that his "curve" is made out of two peaces with a gap between them, the only reason for that gap i can think of is that the upper "curve" can move......  flip, turn .. or something...


I just slapped my forehead again....

Hint: Look at the kidney shaped piece of wood just above the "cradle" in the last picture...

Hint 2: what if the weights extend PAST the sockets out to the sides or at least have an extension bar which sticks out the side

That would mean they stay on the wheel until they start to fall out of the socket at 2100, roll down and to the right at 21:30 and hit the kidney at around 22:00, being pulled ever further upwards (yes because there are more weights pulling down on the right than on the left) and being led into the socket at 12:00 again...

Please note the extended dumbbells on the front view of a weight resting in its socket

More tomorrow, my wheel is @ 02:40am
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: hartiberlin on April 09, 2009, 02:41:58 AM
Here is the video file I made:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-lKoQAx02A

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 09, 2009, 02:43:03 AM
Stefan, Maybe three is too little, or the curve is not perfect yet...

Keep on trying! 

As far as youre way to start it. Its one solution, i myself use the motor function to start it up with any desired speed for just half a second and let it then run free.

To do that:

- Select the motor
- Dubbelclick it
- In the bottom of the properties pop-up de-select "always on"
- In the empty field put in " T<0.5" 

This way when you start it , you will have a have second push to the speed you desire and after that it will run free as well.

It gives you a little more control over the push and easier to try out different speeds..


Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: hartiberlin on April 09, 2009, 02:58:07 AM
Hi Cherryman,
the problem with your motor model was, that the weight of the disc and
the round tracks was more than 2000 KGs all together,
so it had just too much inertial energy.

I just set it to all in all about 10 Kg only and then the discs slows down,
after the motor goes off after 0.5 seconds and comes to a stillstand
as well.
So please watch your weights in the properties box.
These were set wrongly.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 09, 2009, 03:04:21 AM
Hi Cherryman,
the problem with your motor model was, that the weight of the disc and
the round tracks was more than 2000 KGs all together,
so it had just too much inertial energy.

I just set it to all in all about 10 Kg only and then the discs slows down,
after the motor goes off after 0.5 seconds and comes to a stillstand
as well.
So please watch your weights in the properties box.
These were set wrongly.

Regards, Stefan.


Aha, well then i have to study that carefully, because i usually do not change the weight, just use standard and set the balls to steel... 

Tnx! 

I'm still learning the program, i did not think the motor did still have any influence after the 0.5 sec. 

Tnx for the tip!   And i have to go back to the drawing board...  and the manual   ;D


Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 09, 2009, 03:14:41 AM
Found it. No shifting stands, the wheel is as is.

Protruding weight gets stopped by the barrier at 6 o clock and starts moving away from the side of the wheel until it meets the end of the curved barrier. Weight then moves past the barrier and remains balanced at around nine o clock. Past nine o clock it starts moving right towards the center but meets a second barrier, this time from the outside. This is the "kidney" barrier". It then continues to move as the wheel rotates  along the edge of the "kidney" in a diagonal line towards one o clock until it reaches the end of the second barrier and falls into place into its socket again at which point the weight is at around the 12:30 position and the cycle continues.

No kinetics.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Grimer on April 09, 2009, 03:15:58 AM
@ AquariuZ
@ Cherryman
@ hartiberlin

I have been following this thread and have become more and more intrigued, especially when you start discussing the transfer of energy and momentum between different sized masses.

It reminded me of a paper I wrote when working as a Principal Scientific Officer in the Department of the Environment, UK.

The eight pages which you might find relevant to your analysis are as follows:

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q171/frank260332/IHMpage04.jpg
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q171/frank260332/IHMpage05.jpg
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q171/frank260332/IHMpage06.jpg
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q171/frank260332/IHMpage07.jpg
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q171/frank260332/IHMpage08.jpg
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q171/frank260332/IHMpage09.jpg
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q171/frank260332/IHMpage10.jpg
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q171/frank260332/IHMpage11.jpg

I have them as .jpegs because the symbols are quite complicated and are from a non-standard font.

Let me say that most people would regard attempting a Gravity Wheel, a classic perpetual motion machine, as absolutely crazy or a total scam.

Obviously I don't, for the reasons set out in the above pages.

Good luck. You seem to be getting your heads around the problem.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 09, 2009, 03:23:35 AM
TNX Grimer, but i'm afraid that goes above my head  :o

@ AquariuZ.  Does the weight stop at 0900 or just moves on?

Because what you describe looks a bit like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSaKQEn0Wwc&feature=channel_page

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBygA2vOHx4&feature=channel_page
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 09, 2009, 03:40:02 AM
Now i really go to bed, but my latest test seams promissing..  And I'm curious about Aquariuz path.

Goodnight all.. The story continues.......   ;D
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Grimer on April 09, 2009, 05:26:12 AM
TNX Grimer, but I'm afraid that goes above my head  :o


Don't worry about it.

It's not the maths that the difficulty. It's the conceptual change involved.

I'll try and get my head round what you chaps are doing and explain the implications in terms you should understand.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 09, 2009, 05:32:05 AM
Could'nt sleep..   :o

So here is an action shot of the K.A.D. :

 



Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 09, 2009, 05:58:53 AM
Test 5
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Grimer on April 09, 2009, 09:17:28 AM
Couldn't sleep..   :o

So here is an action shot of the K.A.D. :

I'm not surprised you couldn't sleep.

Great diagrams. Virtually self explanatory.

One's got the third derivative (rate of change of acceleration d3x/dt3) on the up side and some higher derivative (dn>3x/dtn>3) on the down side.

Couldn't be better. In fact it's essentially the same as Mylow is getting with his motor (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7039.msg167325#msg167325) except that here the gravitation potential gradient is being mined whereas in his case it was the magnetic potential gradient.

In Mylow's case it was the second and third derivative which was giving the legs of the power cycle. In this case it is the third and higher derivatives.

Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: hartiberlin on April 09, 2009, 12:01:02 PM
Cherryman,
nice new design.
Could you please again post the WM2D file ?

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Philip Hardcastle on April 09, 2009, 12:03:11 PM
Sorry Guys,

You seem to be feverish about this, but I see nothing to get excited about.

No source of energy coming in simply guarantees that it will not (cannot) generate power.

Self explanatory, of what?

Phil
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 09, 2009, 12:12:04 PM
Test 5

I have overlaid the barriers as I understand it from the video footage. Please check the screen shots I posted...

the red spheres represent the side view of the dumbbells. The green dot represents the extended axle which touches the barriers, the weights itself do not touch the barriers.

Now the KAD arms are a bit off and too short, but hopefully you will be able to see the path.

A) WEIGHT AXLE ENCOUNTERS LOWER BARRIER AT AROUND SIX O CLOCK FROM THE INSIDE
B) WEIGHT MOVES UP ALONG THE INSIDE OF THE LOWER BARRIER
C) WEIGHT PASSES LOWER BARRIER AND STAYS ALMOST MOTIONLESS FOR A MOMENT
D) THE WEIGHT MOVES RIGHT CAUSED BY THE MOMENTUM OF THE WHEEL
E) THE WEIGHT AXLE ENCOUNTERS THE UPPER BARRIER FROM THE OUTSIDE
F) WEIGHT MOVES UP ALONG THE UPPER BARRIER BY MOMENTUM
G) WEIGHT FINDS ITSELF IN THE SOCKET AGAIN AT 12:30, EXACTLY WHERE IT WAS AT 17:30

I hope you can now see what I mean...

AGAIN: SEVEN WEIGHTS ON THE LEFT - NINE ON THE RIGHT. HERE IS YOUR "D".
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 09, 2009, 12:23:36 PM
I have overlaid the barriers as I understand it from the video footage. Please check the screen shots I posted...

the red spheres represent the side view of the dumbbells. The green dot represents the extended axle which touches the barriers, the weights itself do not touch the barriers.

Now the KAD arms are a bit off and too short, but hopefully you will be able to see the path.

A) WEIGHT AXLE ENCOUNTERS LOWER BARRIER AT AROUND SIX O CLOCK FROM THE INSIDE
B) WEIGHT MOVES UP ALONG THE INSIDE OF THE LOWER BARRIER
C) WEIGHT PASSES LOWER BARRIER AND STAYS ALMOST MOTIONLESS FOR A MOMENT
D) THE WEIGHT MOVES RIGHT CAUSED BY THE MOMENTUM OF THE WHEEL
E) THE WEIGHT AXLE ENCOUNTERS THE UPPER BARRIER FROM THE OUTSIDE
F) WEIGHT MOVES UP ALONG THE UPPER BARRIER BY MOMENTUM
G) WEIGHT FINDS ITSELF IN THE SOCKET AGAIN AT 12:30, EXACTLY WHERE IT WAS AT 17:30

I hope you can now see what I mean...

AGAIN: SEVEN WEIGHTS ON THE LEFT - NINE ON THE RIGHT. HERE IS YOUR "D".

Hmm intresting..

I haven't got time now..  So i give you guys some files to play with...  There are still some barriers left.

Maybe a stupid question, but should we consider the rotation of the earth?  Because a water whirl always wants to go in the same direction, maybe this can influence this as well...  (Not in the software, but IRL )  It might be of any influence to put it in a certain compass direction line-up.

Anyway here are the files.

Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 09, 2009, 12:28:16 PM
Aquariuz, i was thinking of the dumbells again.. I think the principle is the same, he uses the dumbbells middle bar to lift and st ear them, i do this with the open rails...  Same effect different approach in my opinion.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 09, 2009, 12:30:53 PM
Aquariuz, i was thinking of the dumbells again.. I think the principle is the same, he uses the dumbbells middle bar to lift and st ear them, i do this with the open rails...  Same effect different approach in my opinion.

The lift is on the OUTSIDE, this is the trick. Please check previous. No construction inside the two layers. I hope to finish a correctly scaled model today, preferably without a motor.

Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 09, 2009, 12:37:34 PM
The lift is on the OUTSIDE, this is the trick. Please check previous. No construction inside the two layers. I hope to finish a correctly scaled model today, preferably without a motor.



I did try something similar, i made the ramp a closed path, so it stears the upcoming weights as well in the inside as the outside.. but that didn't work....

I do however see something in you're drawing.. that if you can skip an arm due to the shorter path then you would have indeed more weights on the long side then on the short side...  That needs some more investigation..

I'm looking forward to see you're model!

Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 09, 2009, 12:38:37 PM
Here the snapshot again with adjusted lighting.

You can clearly see the two barriers or stoppers located between the wheel layer and the stand.

This leads me to believe that the weights are indeed extended axle dumbbells.

This also makes me think I have figured out the concept.

Time will tell!

PS: There is a very good reason why Abeling did not want the device filmed from the front near the axle area because you would clearly see the stoppers...

Sorry Sjack, but do not worry you will still get all the credit and be rich & alive.  8)
Title: HENKEL BENELUX HAS SENT A REPLY
Post by: AquariuZ on April 09, 2009, 02:16:28 PM
Geachte heer,

Naar aanleiding van uw aanvraag deel ik u hierbij mede, dat Henkel nauw betrokken is bij de "verlijmingsvraagstukken" van het project van de heer Abeling met betrekking tot de Gewicht Energie Centrale. Het betreft een serieus project. Voor verdere informatie verwijzen wij u graag door naar de heer Abeling.

Met vriendelijke groet / best regards,

Rom Rombouts
National Account Manager

Henkel Nederland B.V.
Adhesive Technologies
Building
T:  +31.(0)30.6073437
F:  +31.(0)30.6045271
M: +31.(0)6.43372124


TRANSLATION

Dear Sir,

With regards to your request for information we confirm that Henkel is closely involved with the "glue attachment challenges" of the project of Mr. Abeling with regards to the Weight Power Plant. It is indeed a serious project. For further information we refer you to Mr. Abeling.

With kind regards,

Rom Rombouts
National Account Manager

Henkel Nederland B.V.
Adhesive Technologies
Building
T:  +31.(0)30.6073437
F:  +31.(0)30.6045271
M: +31.(0)6.43372124


Good enough for me...
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: mondrasek on April 09, 2009, 02:46:29 PM
Gents,

The way to make the "Newton's Cradle" energy transfer work in WM2D has to do with the property "elastic".  You can wikipedia elasticity for the details.  But in layman's terms:  Lowering the elastic property makes an object absorb energy.  It becomes more like a ball of clay and will not bounce.  Raising the elasticity to it's maximum of 1 makes it return all of it's energy.  So it becomes super hard and will bounce forever, returning to the same height from which it is initially dropped.  Of course the surface you are dropping onto also needs to have an elasticity of 1.

Might be time to look up the elasticity of glass, though I am of the mind that this is actually a reference to fiberglass, which was also mentioned very early in this thread.

Great find with the external cam profiles in the video.  I had thought this must be a part of the whole so it's nice to see it in the pictures.

Now, where is the extra energy coming from that launches the weights up the ramp?  He says he gathers it in the lower left, or between 6 and 9 o'clock, right?

M.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: mondrasek on April 09, 2009, 03:05:47 PM
Food for thought attached.

M.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: i_ron on April 09, 2009, 04:43:13 PM
I have overlaid the barriers as I understand it from the video footage. Please check the screen shots I posted...
snip

I hope you can now see what I mean...

AGAIN: SEVEN WEIGHTS ON THE LEFT - NINE ON THE RIGHT. HERE IS YOUR "D".

Aquariuz,

Excellent deductions! This is a very good start. Thanks for posting as a screen shot as I can't read
the wm2d files.

My only quibble is that your pocket shape is not correct... the deep part of the pocket should end
just at transition point where the axle is handed over from the inner guide to the outer guide.

The other point is the two dissimilar pocket shapes... are there perhaps two different actions
taking place? Eight following one path and eight following a different path? With the dropping of
an inner path weight acting to 'lift' the other?

Ron




Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: mondrasek on April 09, 2009, 05:04:21 PM
I've considered from the start that the different slot profiles may have been due to trail and error testing.  The video shows what we believe to be prototype wheel(s).  They are roughly made so I think Abeling might have been trying things out.  He might have change the shape of only one slot to see how it performed.  So there could be 16 variations.  Or he might have tried pairs or multiples of pairs of slot profiles.  I think we might be seeing a wheel where half the slots are of one profile attempt and the other half is a second for evaluation purposes.  But I suppose the production machine would use all identical optimum profiles.

Again, just guesses.

M.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 09, 2009, 05:39:34 PM
@ guys

Guys,

Newton Cradle is out
The wm2d model is by Cherryman I have used a snapshot to show the path via overlay.

I am making my own right now.

Update: Henkel is now asking ME questions  :o

Who am I?
Why am I interested in this project?


Hope I can finish the model before they kill me.  8)

PLEASE LOOK AT MY LAST TEN POSTS OR SO TO GET A THOROUGH UNDERSTANDING
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: lostcauses10x on April 09, 2009, 05:43:12 PM
tell them who you are and why you are interested.

@ guys

Guys,

Newton Cradle is out
The wm2d model is by Cherryman I have used a snapshot to show the path via overlay.

I am making my own right now.

Update: Henkel is now asking ME questions  :o

Who am I?
Why am I interested in this project?


Hope I can finish the model before they kill me.  8)
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: broli on April 09, 2009, 05:47:00 PM
I bet this thread will make Abeling sweat a bit. Did anyone so far had direct contact or a response with/of him?
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 09, 2009, 05:52:24 PM
I bet this thread will make Abeling sweat a bit. Did anyone so far had direct contact or a response with/of him?

Omnibus called him yesterday I believe (page 17?)

And I don't think Sjack is watching, even though I have invited him to the forum.

I really think I have cracked it. If the model results are anywhere near what I expect I am building a mini wheel and will make some form of blueprints to share with you.

Hopefully by that time harti can help if I send the wm2d model because I have no decent software to create plans.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Grimer on April 09, 2009, 05:54:07 PM
Here the snapshot again with adjusted lighting.

You can clearly see the two barriers or stoppers located between the wheel layer and the stand.

This leads me to believe that the weights are indeed extended axle dumbbells.

This also makes me think I have figured out the concept.

Time will tell!

PS: There is a very good reason why Abeling did not want the device filmed from the front near the axle area because you would clearly see the stoppers...

Sorry Sjack, but do not worry you will still get all the credit and be rich & alive.  8)


Excellent deduction of what's going on from those crappy photos. It looks even simpler in principle than I thought. Second and third derivative - higher derivatives don't seem to be needed. Same derivatives as the Mylow Motor - Well that figures, eh!

Top marks for working it out, AquariuZ, or should I call you Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending.  ;)
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 09, 2009, 05:54:09 PM
tell them who you are and why you are interested.

Who are you and why are you interested in me telling them who I am?

 ;D
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 09, 2009, 05:59:53 PM
Top marks for working it out, AquariuZ, or should I call you Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending.  ;)

Thanks but I have not uncorked the bubblie yet...

I have been working for almost three hours straight now on a single polygon with all the captures I could make of the inner boot-shape to match almost 100% the curves. I will even make the "second type just to make sure I use the right one. What a pain but it is getting along...

It is clear that in the model the weight itself will touch the barrier and not its axle, but that is something I will have to accept for now.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Grimer on April 09, 2009, 06:08:02 PM
Who are you and why are you interested in me telling them who I am?

 ;D

Who am I? A man from the west who has been following a star across the desert for 40 years. When I see a handle which begins with alpha and ends with omega what else should I think but that perhaps I have met a fellow traveller on the same journey. As to specifics, that is no secret. Just google "Frank Grimer" or "Francis Joseph Grimer". 8)

And now I've told you who I am perhaps you can tell me who you are. You can use the private message facility if you're shy, or afraid the MIB will get you (they probably know all about you anyway  ::) )
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Tracker on April 09, 2009, 06:22:26 PM
Hi AquariuZ,

If you want a decent, very easy to learn, application to create plans (or any 2d/3d model) please use Google Sketchup.
http://sketchup.google.com/ (http://sketchup.google.com/)
I love this one.
You will need 30+ mins to learn basic techniques. (tutorials are built in)
Seeing is believing.

regards,

Tracker

Omnibus called him yesterday I believe (page 17?)

And I don't think Sjack is watching, even though I have invited him to the forum.

I really think I have cracked it. If the model results are anywhere near what I expect I am building a mini wheel and will make some form of blueprints to share with you.

Hopefully by that time harti can help if I send the wm2d model because I have no decent software to create plans.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 09, 2009, 06:39:23 PM
Who am I? A man from the west who has been following a star across the desert for 40 years. When I see a handle which begins with alpha and ends with omega what else should I think but that perhaps I have met a fellow traveller on the same journey. As to specifics, that is no secret. Just google "Frank Grimer" or "Francis Joseph Grimer". 8)

And now I've told you who I am perhaps you can tell me who you are. You can use the private message facility if you're shy, or afraid the MIB will get you (they probably know all about you anyway  ::) )

My comment was directed @ lostcauses10x who asked me to tell them who I am.

But thanks for sharing.   ;D
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 09, 2009, 06:41:12 PM
Hi AquariuZ,

If you want a decent, very easy to learn, application to create plans (or any 2d/3d model) please use Google Sketchup.
http://sketchup.google.com/ (http://sketchup.google.com/)
I love this one.
You will need 30+ mins to learn basic techniques. (tutorials are built in)
Seeing is believing.

regards,

Tracker


Wow  :o

Thank you sir
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Grimer on April 09, 2009, 07:29:09 PM
My comment was directed @ lostcauses10x who asked me to tell them who I am.

But thanks for sharing.   ;D

LOL. I should remember to read the quotes before answering.  ::)
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: X00013 on April 09, 2009, 07:40:56 PM
Hi AquariuZ,

If you want a decent, very easy to learn, application to create plans (or any 2d/3d model) please use Google Sketchup.
http://sketchup.google.com/ (http://sketchup.google.com/)
I love this one.
You will need 30+ mins to learn basic techniques. (tutorials are built in)
Seeing is believing.

regards,

Tracker



And sketchy has a physics plug in http://code.google.com/p/sketchyphysics2/

And Blender is a free gane physics engine that is pretty good  http://www.blender.org/

Heres some examples   http://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=videos&search_query=sketchyphysics&search_sort=video_date_uploaded

                                   http://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=videos&search_query=blender+physics&search_sort=video_view_count
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: i_ron on April 09, 2009, 07:49:23 PM
I've considered from the start that the different slot profiles may have been due to trail and error testing.  The video shows what we believe to be prototype wheel(s).  They are roughly made so I think Abeling might have been trying things out.  He might have change the shape of only one slot to see how it performed.  So there could be 16 variations.  Or he might have tried pairs or multiples of pairs of slot profiles.  I think we might be seeing a wheel where half the slots are of one profile attempt and the other half is a second for evaluation purposes.  But I suppose the production machine would use all identical optimum profiles.

Again, just guesses.

M.

mondrasek,

I think the slots are deliberately asymmetric...

"The weights are applied two by two: one weight is pushing/falling, the other one has to be lifted."

This is the key.

Ron
 


Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: mondrasek on April 09, 2009, 08:40:32 PM
mondrasek,

I think the slots are deliberately asymmetric...

"The weights are applied two by two: one weight is pushing/falling, the other one has to be lifted."

This is the key.

Ron

I believe that opposite slots must be identical.  The falling weight referred to is in the slot between 12 and 6.  The lifted one is at 180 degrees, on the 6 to 12 side.

In any one of these types of wheels they should be able to be made with just one pair of weights.  There must be a torque sum from just one pair:  the falling of one weight produces more torque than it takes to raise the other.  Then you add more pairs to increase the torque.  In a non running design where you have two weights and no output torque, adding more weight pairs further decreases the ability of that system to run e. g. rundown tests will be even slower with more pairs.

So it would be possible to test the design with just two identical slots 180 degrees apart and compare that to the output of another pair and so on, by running only one pair at a time and taking measurements.  The wheels in the video could show up to 8 different pairs of test designs looking for which slot profile provides the most output torque.

M.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 09, 2009, 11:25:59 PM
Update:

Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: hartiberlin on April 10, 2009, 12:10:11 AM
Food for thought attached.

M.

Hi Mondrasek,
without the motor driving the wheel,
this design is not selfrunning.

Here is a screenshot.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: hartiberlin on April 10, 2009, 12:11:39 AM
@ guys

Guys,

Newton Cradle is out
The wm2d model is by Cherryman I have used a snapshot to show the path via overlay.

I am making my own right now.

Update: Henkel is now asking ME questions  :o

Who am I?
Why am I interested in this project?



Hi AquariuZ,
Please send them the exact URL for this thread, so they can have a look at this.
Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: hartiberlin on April 10, 2009, 12:21:56 AM
Hmm intresting..

I haven't got time now..  So i give you guys some files to play with...  There are still some barriers left.

Maybe a stupid question, but should we consider the rotation of the earth?  Because a water whirl always wants to go in the same direction, maybe this can influence this as well...  (Not in the software, but IRL )  It might be of any influence to put it in a certain compass direction line-up.

Anyway here are the files.



Hi Cherryman,
the KAD7 file was only this.

Did you forget to post the file with the track-guides for the balls ?

By the way, what should the name KAD stand for ?
Did I miss this ?

Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: hartiberlin on April 10, 2009, 12:26:30 AM
I have overlaid the barriers as I understand it from the video footage. Please check the screen shots I posted...

the red spheres represent the side view of the dumbbells. The green dot represents the extended axle which touches the barriers, the weights itself do not touch the barriers.

Now the KAD arms are a bit off and too short, but hopefully you will be able to see the path.

A) WEIGHT AXLE ENCOUNTERS LOWER BARRIER AT AROUND SIX O CLOCK FROM THE INSIDE
B) WEIGHT MOVES UP ALONG THE INSIDE OF THE LOWER BARRIER
C) WEIGHT PASSES LOWER BARRIER AND STAYS ALMOST MOTIONLESS FOR A MOMENT
D) THE WEIGHT MOVES RIGHT CAUSED BY THE MOMENTUM OF THE WHEEL
E) THE WEIGHT AXLE ENCOUNTERS THE UPPER BARRIER FROM THE OUTSIDE
F) WEIGHT MOVES UP ALONG THE UPPER BARRIER BY MOMENTUM
G) WEIGHT FINDS ITSELF IN THE SOCKET AGAIN AT 12:30, EXACTLY WHERE IT WAS AT 17:30

I hope you can now see what I mean...

AGAIN: SEVEN WEIGHTS ON THE LEFT - NINE ON THE RIGHT. HERE IS YOUR "D".

Hi AquariuZ ,

so you say, that this wheel does not work using centrifugal forces ?, cause
otherwise from 9 to 12 o´clock the weights would be pushed by the centrifugal forces
outwards to the rim and not going up your outer barrier in center...
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 10, 2009, 12:58:24 AM
Hi Cherryman,
the KAD7 file was only this.

Did you forget to post the file with the track-guides for the balls ?

By the way, what should the name KAD stand for ?
Did I miss this ?

Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.


Strange, the arms should be there too, i will repost it.

This for me started as a little fun project with my daughter ( 8 ), we decided to built a "Top Secret free energie machine"  . It seemd as a perfect time to test the swingarm idear. We needed a "secret" name name and it become K. (first letter our name) Automatisch (Automatic)  Ding (Thing)

So see it with a blink  ;), but i have no choice   ;D
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: mondrasek on April 10, 2009, 01:23:41 AM
Hi Mondrasek,
without the motor driving the wheel,
this design is not selfrunning.

Here is a screenshot.

Regards, Stefan.

Stefan,

You are 100% correct.

As I said, this was "food for thought."  I did not want to distract the others completely from the directions they were already trying.

The file I posted has to do with a concept for extracting energy from the lower left quadrant of the cycle and reintroducing it at the upper left quadrant.  It was not intended as a working solution, just "food for thought."

Conventional physics shows that we cannot move a weight around a wheel and gain energy from gravity.  I don't see anything so far in this idea with just ramps and guides that changes that.  But I also am not saying it is impossible.  I am looking at the other "facts" stated by Abeling on his site and trying to get the rest of this "team" to starting thinking of how to gather energy in the lower left and use it to launch the weights in the upper left.  This was one idea.

Thanks,

M.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 10, 2009, 01:30:19 AM
Stefan,

As I said, this was "food for thought."  I did not want to distract the others completely from the directions they were already trying.

The file I posted has to do with a concept for extracting energy from the lower left quadrant of the cycle and reintroducing it at the upper left quadrant.  It was not intended as a working solution, just "food for thought."

Conventional physics shows that we cannot move a weight around a wheel and gain energy from gravity.  I don't see anything so far in this idea with ramps and guides that changes that.  But I also am not saying it is impossible.  I am looking at the other "facts" stated by Abeling on his site and trying to get the rest of this "team" to starting thinking of how to gather energy in the lower left and use it to launch the weights in the upper left.  This was one idea.

Thanks,

M.

Good! Keep them coming, i also post things i know dont't work , but i think that is the essence of this forum" Showing  progress and thinking, and  sharing. .
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: hartiberlin on April 10, 2009, 01:40:40 AM
Strange, the arms should be there too, i will repost it.

This for me started as a little fun project with my daughter ( 8 ), we decided to built a "Top Secret free energie machine"  . It seemd as a perfect time to test the swingarm idear. We needed a "secret" name name and it become K. (first letter our name) Automatisch (Automatic)  Ding (Thing)

So see it with a blink  ;), but i have no choice   ;D

Still the guidance tracks for the weights are missing.
I only see the weights, the disc and the left ramp.

Which version of WM2D do you use ?
I have installed over here 5.1.2.53

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: hartiberlin on April 10, 2009, 01:47:28 AM
Hi,
I have tried to get this KAD design working with 4 guidance slots,
but this also does not work.
It seems the lifting of the balls at the left side causes just too much drag at the
ramp-wall.

Here is enclosed the WM2D file:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=get260

and attached a picture.

I will upload a movie again to youtube now.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 10, 2009, 01:52:07 AM
Hi,
I have tried to get this KAD design working with 4 guidance slots,
but this also does not work.
It seems the lifting of the balls at the left side causes just too much drag at the
ramp-wall.

Here is enclosed the WM2D file:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=get260

and attached a picture.

I will upload a movie again to youtube now.

Regards, Stefan.

The Ramp is a rail with very little friction, you maybe you can change the friction level. But also the rotational force and the curvuture should "loosen" the ball from the rod so then the friction should not slow down the wheel..  At least.. that is the basic of what im trying.

So you combie the lifting from the different position and the moving mass and the accelaration from the curve combid.. Shoudl do the trick. 
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: hartiberlin on April 10, 2009, 01:58:07 AM
Well,
here is the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEAKXNshxxs

I guess I must install the newer version now and play
with the ramp materials to get less friction.
It was a real difference between using wood or
steel for the ramp.
In the above movie the balls are steel
and the ramp is wood.

When the ramp is steel too, the steel balls just
jump back and forth on the ramp, so not so good...
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Alexioco on April 10, 2009, 01:58:27 AM
Good! Keep them coming, i also post things i know dont't work , but i think that is the essence of this forum" Showing  progress and thinking, and  sharing. .

Hi Cherryman, I am completly with you on that, more brains are better than less :P

Alex
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Alexioco on April 10, 2009, 02:02:13 AM
Well,
here is the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEAKXNshxxs

I guess I must install the newer version now and play
with the ramp materials to get less friction.
It was a real difference between using wood or
steel for the ramp.
In the above movie the balls are steel
and the ramp is wood.

When the ramp is steel too, the steel balls just
jump back and forth on the ramp, so not so good...



Great video stefan, i always like your work :) I remember my old wheel designs you put on youtube  8)

edit: i may be giving you a new one soon to do for me  ::)

Alex
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: hallo on April 10, 2009, 02:05:06 AM
How to get the WM2D:

http://www.board4all.cz/showthread.php?t=88165

 :o
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: mondrasek on April 10, 2009, 02:08:04 AM
Guys,

In WM2D you can set the properties manually rather than choose the preset "steel", "wood", etc.  If you set the Static Friction and Dynamic Friction to zero, you eliminate friction from the equation (for testing purposes).  You can also set the Elastic property to zero if you want it to not bounce off of other objects like a ball of clay, or up to 1 if you want it to bounce off of other object with the same but opposite velocity.  Also, set the mass to whatever you want since your objects could be of any material density as well as extend into the page as far as you want.

Eliminating friction is a good test method.  If you cannot get a working system without friction, obviously it will not work in the real world either.

M.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 10, 2009, 02:13:33 AM
Well,
here is the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEAKXNshxxs

I guess I must install the newer version now and play
with the ramp materials to get less friction.
It was a real difference between using wood or
steel for the ramp.
In the above movie the balls are steel
and the ramp is wood.

When the ramp is steel too, the steel balls just
jump back and forth on the ramp, so not so good...


Tnx that meterial thing is a good tip, i keep forgetting that!  ???

Stupid, because i think eventually result could be in the finetuning as Muchs as in the basic design.. But I'm to chaotic to do that systematically.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 10, 2009, 02:27:29 AM
Timing and regulated feeding not yet under control

Video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xnwoafGoKI
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: 0c on April 10, 2009, 02:51:26 AM
Well,
here is the video:

Stefan, please hear me out.

With just the 4 arms in your video, no guides, if it spins fast enough, the balls will be stuck to the outer end due to centrifugal force, right.

Now add a trapdoor at the end of each arm, so if the trap door springs open, the ball will go flying out in the appropriate direction.

Now add an external curved ramp mechanism below the wheel, so that if the trapdoor opens above it, it will catch the ball and allow the ball's momenum to carry it back to the top.

You also need a trigger to unlatch the trapdoor near 6:00 so the ball will fly out at the correct time.

The trapdoor should stay open until that arm reaches the top, and should only close when a ball reenters the wheel at the top, then it should latch until it reaches bottom again.

The wheel will need to be spun up with all balls onboard until it reaches a speed where a ball escaping through the bottom of the wheel will have enough momentum to go up and around the ramp and reenter the wheel at the top. When the required speed is reached, the trapdoor latching/unlatching mechanism can be engaged.

The ramp length and wheel speed need to be synchronised so the ball reenters the same arm at the top it departed from at the bottom.

What you end up with, once it gets up to the required RPM, is a wheel with balls on one side and no balls on the other.

I'd be very interested in seeing a WM2D video of what I just described. If you don't understand what I said, just ask questions.

Thanx,
0c
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 10, 2009, 02:56:55 AM
Its getting better..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VbxHhE3_7I&feature=channel
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 10, 2009, 03:11:50 AM
Hi AquariuZ ,

so you say, that this wheel does not work using centrifugal forces ?, cause
otherwise from 9 to 12 o´clock the weights would be pushed by the centrifugal forces
outwards to the rim and not going up your outer barrier in center...


No, no I do not say this. The torque is on the right, the momentum pushes the weight out and up, past the lower barrier, where it will have lost its kinetic energy and gets pulled up by the momentum where gravity starts pulling it down and thus it meets the upper barrier on the outside and moves up that one to finally land in its own socket again at 12:30

Quite simple really.

Model is not done yet, it promise it is worth the wait as it seems to work exactly as I think it does.

Just do not want to post half baked
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: hartiberlin on April 10, 2009, 03:12:59 AM
Its getting better..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VbxHhE3_7I&feature=channel

Are you still running it via a motor or
is this already running itsself ?

Your KAD7 file under Version 8.x
has still inconsistences...
Just takes ages to render frame 1...
Can you please post your newer files please ?

Many thanks.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 10, 2009, 03:25:42 AM
Here it is.

I Still use a motor, because of the testing. Curve, timing, catch&Hold..  I want it smoother and more natural.. 

well, it's fun!   8)

Here is the file:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=item261

Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: hartiberlin on April 10, 2009, 03:35:39 AM
Stefan, please hear me out.

With just the 4 arms in your video, no guides, if it spins fast enough, the balls will be stuck to the outer end due to centrifugal force, right.

Now add a trapdoor at the end of each arm, so if the trap door springs open, the ball will go flying out in the appropriate direction.

Now add an external curved ramp mechanism below the wheel, so that if the trapdoor opens above it, it will catch the ball and allow the ball's momenum to carry it back to the top.

You also need a trigger to unlatch the trapdoor near 6:00 so the ball will fly out at the correct time.

The trapdoor should stay open until that arm reaches the top, and should only close when a ball reenters the wheel at the top, then it should latch until it reaches bottom again.

The wheel will need to be spun up with all balls onboard until it reaches a speed where a ball escaping through the bottom of the wheel will have enough momentum to go up and around the ramp and reenter the wheel at the top. When the required speed is reached, the trapdoor latching/unlatching mechanism can be engaged.

The ramp length and wheel speed need to be synchronised so the ball reenters the same arm at the top it departed from at the bottom.

What you end up with, once it gets up to the required RPM, is a wheel with balls on one side and no balls on the other.

I'd be very interested in seeing a WM2D video of what I just described. If you don't understand what I said, just ask questions.

Thanx,
0c

If I only would know, how to design such a system with WM2D.

I am no WM2D Pro, so I only can do basic things.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Alexioco on April 10, 2009, 04:19:50 AM
Here is my little contribution :P

Edit: wow I just had a good thought, if the weights raised like they do in my drawing (below) but straight under the axle and above the axle, the weights have no weight on the wheel, their weight is applied to the axle instead, so long as they raise in a straight line...

Alex
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Grimer on April 10, 2009, 09:38:56 AM
Well, I've worked out the power cycle for the Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel - and here it is.

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q171/frank260332/Sjackcycle.jpg

So it looks as though his gravity wheel really will work, though as he says, why someone didn't find this out a long time ago just by chance is a bit of a mystery.

Still, I suppose before knowledge of the Carnot cycle and the Leibniz calculus it would have been a bit of a mental stretch.

When I first recognised that the acceleration leg (d2x/dt2)and the rate of change of acceleration leg (the adiabatic leg - d3x/dt3) gave the potential for a power cycle I couldn't see where the other return legs were going to come from. But then I realised that cos everything is turning round the returning legs are the same as the outgoing legs. Tricky, eh!

But what on earth has this got to do with a Carnot cycle you may ask?

Well, think of the balls being thrown around as monster molecules and the structure enclosing them as the cylinder. The equivalent of the thermal potential change is the gravitational potential change and the adiabatic leg (the balls rising up) is where the motion energy is exchanged for gravitational energy.

If you don't understand what I'm on about (or even what I'm smoking  ;) ) I can't say I blame you.
And if you want to ask questions I'll do my best to answer them.

Oh, and one more think to note. The containing structure can be made as stiff as needs be so no significant power is lost to the structure.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 10, 2009, 01:20:54 PM
@Cherryman,

I’m looking at your KAD9.wm2d file. You had set the Torque on Polygon 5 to 1 on x and y1, as far as I can see. I reset it to zero on both axes and re-renedered it. It appears that it can still make full turns. There’s a problem with the fourth steel ball, however, which existed even with the original torque which I don’t know how to fix. Mind you I’ve never worked with WM2D before.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 10, 2009, 01:24:19 PM
@Cherryman,

I’m looking at your KAD9.wm2d file. You had set the Torque on Polygon 5 to 1 on x and y1, as far as I can see. I reset it to zero on both axes and re-renedered it. It appears that it can still make full turns. There’s a problem with the fourth steel ball, however, which existed even with the original torque which I don’t know how to fix. Mind you I’ve never worked with WM2D before.

Neither do I  ;D

Untill i have a satisfying setup, i do not much with the parameters of WM2D, but feel free to try of finetuning it will help.  Good luck.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 10, 2009, 01:46:49 PM
When you change the material of the Body(5) - Polygon to Standard (whatever it means) from the initial Wood w/ steel balls weighing 100kg it makes 2 full rotations. During the third rotation there's a problem w/ the second to last ball. Nevertheless, if I'm doing it right, I think this is a notable achievement because it means that the wheel regains on its own what it has lost. It appears that it's now only a matter of fine tuning to have a working gravity wheel. Good job @Cherryman.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 10, 2009, 01:49:42 PM
When you change the material of the Body(5) - Polygon to Standard (whatever it means) from the initial Wood w/ steel balls weighing 100kg it makes 2 full rotations. During the third rotation there's a problem w/ the second to last ball. Nevertheless, if I'm doing it right, I think this is a notable achievement because it means that the wheel regains on its own what it has lost. It appears that it's now only a matter of fine tuning to have a working gravity wheel.

Indeed, that's the basic of the  K.A.D. System. Althoug it should work also without the flying Ball, i'm testing that right now.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AB Hammer on April 10, 2009, 02:19:35 PM
I keep looking and reading, but after so many builds, I think I will wait on a video or other proof. Simply put, ramps have always been tried and so far no proof of one working. If Sjack has it patented, why not show the working wheel?
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 10, 2009, 02:20:20 PM
With Custom (don't know what it means) material works even better. Unfortunately, don't know how to make a video out of it. Hope Stefan can help in that and have it uploaded to youtube for others to see. Of course, the way it is now with a wheel weighing almost 3tons and 100kg steel balls one can hardly call it a laboratory scale experiment. Wonder if it can be scaled down. Nevertheless, excellent idea, @Cherryman. Hope it will lead to a working model. Good luck.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 10, 2009, 03:01:07 PM
In fact, it seems I'm getting even better results with 0.1kg steel balls and 0.5kg wheel made of Custom material. I got 4 full turns but stopped the rendering because if I let it go further the program crashes for some reason and restarts the computer. Wish I knew how to make a video to show it to those who don't have WM2D.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 10, 2009, 03:02:56 PM
In fact, it seems I'm getting even better results with 0.1kg steel balls and 0.5kg wheel made of Custom material. I got 4 full turns but stopped the rendering because if I let it go further the program crashes for some reason and restarts the computer. Wish I could make a video to show it to those who don't have WM2D.


I can do that, place upload the WM2D file then i will make you a video
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 10, 2009, 03:21:08 PM
Tried to upload it but the file is too large. Says maximum attachment size allowed is 250 KB. Do you video it with a camera or there's a way to make a video from within WM2D?
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 10, 2009, 03:24:28 PM
Tried to upload it but the file is too large. Says maximum attachment size allowed is 250 KB. Do you video it with a camera or there's a way to make a video from within WM2D?

You can upload larger viles in the upload section (Left side of this page) Don't know if WM2D can make video's itself.

I Use Debut Capture (A free program,, google it)
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 10, 2009, 03:31:51 PM
Hope this is the link: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=item262
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: mondrasek on April 10, 2009, 03:33:53 PM
All,

WM2D files grow larger if they have already calculated frames!  Change any object property, hit run, stop and reset.  Then change the property back to original value and SAVE.  This clears all calculated frames.  This file will be just the geometry with no frames calculated.  It will be a very small file!

M.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 10, 2009, 03:43:18 PM
Hope this is the link: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=item262

Ok, here is the video

I let it run, good work..  you have made it indeed run smoother, but there still comes the timing problem.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KlLMA5oFxg&feature=channel_page

Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 10, 2009, 03:51:14 PM
Here it is as an attachment. Thanks @mondrasek.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: hartiberlin on April 10, 2009, 03:58:06 PM
Well, I've worked out the power cycle for the Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel - and here it is.

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q171/frank260332/Sjackcycle.jpg

So it looks as though his gravity wheel really will work, though as he says, why someone didn't find this out a long time ago just by chance is a bit of a mystery.

Still, I suppose before knowledge of the Carnot cycle and the Leibniz calculus it would have been a bit of a mental stretch.

When I first recognised that the acceleration leg (d2x/dt2)and the rate of change of acceleration leg (the adiabatic leg - d3x/dt3) gave the potential for a power cycle I couldn't see where the other return legs were going to come from. But then I realised that cos everything is turning round the returning legs are the same as the outgoing legs. Tricky, eh!

But what on earth has this got to do with a Carnot cycle you may ask?

Well, think of the balls being thrown around as monster molecules and the structure enclosing them as the cylinder. The equivalent of the thermal potential change is the gravitational potential change and the adiabatic leg (the balls rising up) is where the motion energy is exchanged for gravitational energy.

If you don't understand what I'm on about (or even what I'm smoking  ;) ) I can't say I blame you.
And if you want to ask questions I'll do my best to answer them.

Oh, and one more think to note. The containing structure can be made as stiff as needs be so no significant power is lost to the structure.

Hi Grimer,
looks good, so it is a right turning cycle process, right ?
How can we make the area inside the curve bigger, for more output ?
Can you please calculate this and let us know, how to do this in the real world ?

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: hartiberlin on April 10, 2009, 04:03:31 PM
All,

WM2D files grow larger if they have already calculated frames!  Change any object property, hit run, stop and reset.  Then change the property back to original value and SAVE.  This clears all calculated frames.  This file will be just the geometry with no frames calculated.  It will be a very small file!

M.

Very good tip.
I always wondered, how I can delete the already calculated frames,
that are always stored into the WM2D file...

Is there no other way to delete the frames easier ?
Many thanks.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 10, 2009, 04:12:58 PM
Ok, here is the video

I let it run, good work..  you have made it indeed run smoother, but there still comes the timing problem.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KlLMA5oFxg&feature=channel_page



Thanks, @Cherryman.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: hartiberlin on April 10, 2009, 04:16:12 PM
@Cherryman,
can you please upload the KAD5 WM2D file
from:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSaKQEn0Wwc

I want to test some basic things with it.

Many thanks in advance.

2. I really think, using centrifugal forces  it might just only work,
if we really get the balls OFF the wheel at 6 o´clock and
let them run up a external ramp and get them onto the wheel again at 12 o´clock.

This the wheel can speed up and can conduct work onto an external axis load.

3. Alexioco,
I don´t understand your drawing, could you please explain it some more ?
Many thanks in advance.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: hartiberlin on April 10, 2009, 04:19:17 PM
@Omnibus,
if you want a Video from the WM2D program:
you need to click on menu File/EXPORT and the choose
AVI and then use a codec like XVID ( You must first install this
codec in your PC, DIVX codec for instance does not work in my PC for it)
and then use 24 bits deepth and 25 or 30 frames/sec
and then let it render it.

Hope it helps.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: hartiberlin on April 10, 2009, 04:22:39 PM
I think this KAD 9 file works only, cause you have a motor in it.
the barrier at the left is much too steep and there are too few balls
and it always will stop, so this design is a dead end for a selfrunning wheel
I guess.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 10, 2009, 04:23:35 PM
This is my comment on youtube regarding the simulation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KlLMA5oFxg&feature=channel_page

"This is modeled with no initial torque with Custom material (whatever it means), 0.1kg steel balls and 05kg rotor. If nothing is overlooked in the parameters rendered, this design by @YbborNetsrek (@Cherryman, that is) appears to be the first simulated working gravity wheel."
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 10, 2009, 04:24:59 PM
I think this KAD 9 file works only, cause you have a motor in it.
the barrier at the left is much too steep and there are too few balls
and it always will stop, so this design is a dead end for a selfrunning wheel
I guess.

Stefan, the initial torque is set to zero in this simulation here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KlLMA5oFxg&feature=channel_page
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 10, 2009, 04:26:41 PM
@Omnibus,
if you want a Video from the WM2D program:
you need to click on menu File/EXPORT and the choose
AVI and then use a codec like XVID ( You must first install this
codec in your PC, DIVX codec for instance does not work in my PC for it)
and then use 24 bits deepth and 25 or 30 frames/sec
and then let it render it.

Hope it helps.


Thanks a lot, Stefan, will try it.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: mondrasek on April 10, 2009, 05:04:06 PM
Very good tip.
I always wondered, how I can delete the already calculated frames,
that are always stored into the WM2D file...

Is there no other way to delete the frames easier ?
Many thanks.

Not that I know of.  But I am also new to WM2D.  Played around with it for about a month or so I guess.

Also, custom material just means you are setting material characteristics manally rather than using the few pre-sets like steel or wood.  You manually set the static and dynamic friction, density (mass), elasticity, etc.  This is because there are many more materials than WM2D has in the pre-sets.  Once you find characteristics that give you the desired design functionality, you then select real world materials similar to those characteristics.  It could even lead you to choose a material such as glass.

BTW, every wheel in WM2D will spin forever until you turn on air resistance.  The pin joints are frictionless, and this is not the case in the real world.  So you can add air resistance or a resisting torque to simulate real air resistance and axle friction.  Of course, if any wheel accelerates in WM2D due only to geometry and the simulated gravity, it should be a runner.

M.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: hartiberlin on April 10, 2009, 05:09:43 PM
Stefan, the initial torque is set to zero in this simulation here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KlLMA5oFxg&feature=channel_page

in the above KAD9 file there was still a motor set at 1 rad/sec
so it was the drive of the wheel.

Also the background disc was very heavy with over 1000 Kg,
so this is not realistic.

I am trying to change this all now and see, if it will really run without any
motor at all...
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 10, 2009, 05:18:15 PM
@mondrasek,

Quote
Of course, if any wheel accelerates in WM2D due only to geometry and the simulated gravity, it should be a runner.

This appears to be the case with @Cherryman's design. So far this is the only working simulation of a gravity motor (or any OU motor for that matter) that I've ever seen. Of course, we have to study this thoroughly to ensure that it isn't a novice's success (by novice I mean myself because I started using MW2D for the first time only several hours ago). I really hope it's the real thing, as it appears to be at this point. Once it's established crafting it won't be a problem, I think, when we have such skilled folks as @CLaNZeR and @X00013. The photograph of Mylow's device which Sterling posted shows a very beautifully crafted device as well and maybe that talented person would be interested in making this device too.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: hartiberlin on April 10, 2009, 05:19:55 PM
Hmm,
how did you design the polygon 5 of KAD9  ?

If I delete the motor in the center the disc begins to turn
counterclockwise...

Hmm, very strange...

Also the left barrier can not be set as a different colored fill
mode. It stays always transparent...
How did you design these polygons ?
in a different program ?
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 10, 2009, 05:20:33 PM
in the above KAD9 file there was still a motor set at 1 rad/sec
so it was the drive of the wheel.

Also the background disc was very heavy with over 1000 Kg,
so this is not realistic.

I am trying to change this all now and see, if it will really run without any
motor at all...

The disc is only 0.5kg and the steel balls are 0.1kg in the simulation. Where did you see the 1rad s^-1 motor?

I meant the simulation I modified, not the original KAD9.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: hartiberlin on April 10, 2009, 05:56:13 PM
The disc is only 0.5kg and the steel balls are 0.1kg in the simulation. Where did you see the 1rad s^-1 motor?

I meant the simulation I modified, not the original KAD9.

This one attached to this message:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7150.msg170088#msg170088

has a motor in it.

Check it out again.

Where is the one without the motor ?
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Tracker on April 10, 2009, 05:59:17 PM
Hi Omnibus,

With all due respect.
There IS a motor in this simulation.
When removed, nothing happens.
If you have one without the motor, please post it here.

regards,

Tracker

The disc is only 0.5kg and the steel balls are 0.1kg in the simulation. Where did you see the 1rad s^-1 motor?

I meant the simulation I modified, not the original KAD9.

Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 10, 2009, 06:01:04 PM
Stefan, try this one (attached).
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 10, 2009, 06:04:04 PM
Hi Omnibus,

With all due respect.
There IS a motor in this simulation.
When removed, nothing happens.
If you have one without the motor, please post it here.

regards,

Tracker



I just posted one for Stefan. In it I zeroed anything that I could lay hands on, except for gravity. One thing I noticed, though, values are seen here and there when I reset after rendering (not the torque and the rad/s). What else should I do to avoid "motor", do you think?
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Tracker on April 10, 2009, 06:08:12 PM
Hi Omnibus,

It looks like you are RIGHT !!!
If I understood it correctly, in this specific case, the motor works only as "bearing".
Can be later use as generator.
Clever.
Let's try replace motor with some real bearing.

regards,

Tracker

Stefan, try this one (attached).
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Grimer on April 10, 2009, 06:19:44 PM
Hi Grimer,
looks good, so it is a right turning cycle process, right ?
How can we make the area inside the curve bigger, for more output ?
Can you please calculate this and let us know, how to do this in the real world ?

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.

Thanks for your reply, Stefan. I must say I didn't really expect any. For one thing I thought the idea of an area on a displacement vs. time graph representing energy would too big a stumbling block. I can explain why it is energy but the explanation requires both an unconventional view of time, a view of stress as an alias for an equilibrium natural strain which leads to energy as strain energy.

I don't know what a "right turning cycle process" is I'm afraid. Perhaps Harvey's idea of a mini tide machine may be useful.

I know the area inside the loop looks a bit constrained but it better than Carnot and no-one has ever complained about that.

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q171/frank260332/Stefan1.jpg (http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q171/frank260332/Stefan1.jpg)

From the sound of things I don't think one will need more power. Anyway, let's wait to see it actually working first before worrying about bells and whistles.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: mondrasek on April 10, 2009, 06:43:51 PM
Guys,

I think you are experiencing one of the (many) bugs in WM2D.  Try closing the program.  Then open the file and double click directly on the motor, or any other element to open the properties box.  Make sure from the pull down menu that you are looking at the Motor (Constraint 14).  It says the velocity is -1.0 rad/sec.  Change this to zero and nothing runs.

If you click around in the motor properties you will find that it stops working properly.  That is why you must start by opening the file and program from scratch and only look for the motor velocity.

Sorry,

M.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Tracker on April 10, 2009, 06:51:45 PM
Hi Mondrasek,

Just to be sure this is not WM2D problem, I'm reproducing this model in SketchyPhysics for Sketchup.
Let's see ...
Just in case I will not use any motor in this simulation.

regards,

Tracker


Guys,

I think you are experiencing one of the (many) bugs in WM2D.  Try closing the program.  Then open the file and double click directly on the motor, or any other element to open the properties box.  Make sure from the pull down menu that you are looking at the Motor (Constraint 14).  It says the velocity is -1.0 rad/sec.  Change this to zero and nothing runs.

If you click around in the motor properties you will find that it stops working properly.  That is why you must start by opening the file and program from scratch and only look for the motor velocity.

Sorry,

M.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: itanimuLLi on April 10, 2009, 06:56:27 PM
Can anyone make a calculation and maybe an animation. the blue balls are static the reds are getting in and out of the rotor.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 10, 2009, 06:56:56 PM
Guys,

I think you are experiencing one of the (many) bugs in WM2D.  Try closing the program.  Then open the file and double click directly on the motor, or any other element to open the properties box.  Make sure from the pull down menu that you are looking at the Motor (Constraint 14).  It says the velocity is -1.0 rad/sec.  Change this to zero and nothing runs.

If you click around in the motor properties you will find that it stops working properly.  That is why you must start by opening the file and program from scratch and only look for the motor velocity.

Sorry,

M.

@mondrasek, I closed the program, opened it again, looked at V0 and its value was 0.000 rad/s. Then I ran it and, as usual, it started rendering it in a way that we already saw it does. Where's the problem?
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 10, 2009, 07:08:16 PM
Hi Mondrasek,

Just to be sure this is not WM2D problem, I'm reproducing this model in SketchyPhysics for Sketchup.
Let's see ...
Just in case I will not use any motor in this simulation.

regards,

Tracker



It will be very interesting indeed if this effect will be reproduced in another program. Is SketchyPhysics similar to WM2D
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: mondrasek on April 10, 2009, 07:22:00 PM
Guys,

Here is the file with the motor velocity changed from -1 rad/sec to 0 rad/sec.  Only change.

Now it does not move because the motor is a brake.

Stefan, when I remove/delete the motor I also have the wheel spin backwards.  Not sure what Cherryman was doing with the other torques in the file.

M.
Title: ABELING CONCEPT WM2D MODEL
Post by: AquariuZ on April 10, 2009, 07:35:05 PM
Well, that was fun...

There are so many variables to set in wm2d that I went nuts. Spheres falling out of constraints. Shit.

Here now what I have been working on.

You are looking at a side view here. The spheres do NOT represent the weights but the extended axles of the dumbbell weights.

The flow can be shown clearly now. please remember the frontal view of the dumbbells I showed you earlier and keep that in mind.

Without motor all kinds of constraint and overlap errors occur, I do NOT know enough about wm2d to fix those to put the model to a real test and look for acceleration(it does!!). I changed so many textures I am a bit lost, but you can see the flow concept and we should take it from there.

Model attached.

EDIT: I FORGOT TO MENTION... YES WHEN YOU LET IT RUN FOR A FEW SECONDS (IGNORE THE OVERLAP ERRORS), THEN STOP, THEN SELECT START HERE AND REPLACE THE MOTOR WITH A PIN (IGNORE THE WARNINGS) IT STARTS TO ACCELERATE AND COMPLETELY DESTRUCTS WITH BALLS FLYING EVERY WHERE WITHIN SECONDS. WARNINGS ALL OVER.

If you can help make the model more solid, who knows? Also when the weight leaves the lower barrier it should remain motionless and then move right onto the upper barrier. So yeah I need to slightly adjust the lower barrier (again) Coming off it now moves a little to the left, stops, and accelerates to the right into the upper barrier. FRONTAL VIEW EXTENDED AXLE DUMBBELL WEIGHT ADDED. YELLOW=WHAT YOU ARE LOOKING AT..

Just ignore the Warning:CoE violation messages  8)

Please comment and help clean up the model if you can, thanks.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: mondrasek on April 10, 2009, 07:48:36 PM
I took AquariuZ file, removed the motor, and normalized all the masses (some "balls" and arms were not equal weight).

Great work AquariuZ!

Unfortunately it does not appear to self run.

M.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Tracker on April 10, 2009, 07:48:50 PM
Hi Omnibus,

SketchyPhysics is free ware plug-in for Google Sketchup (only for version 6)
It is quite different. Google Sketchup is all about easy creation of 3D objects.
I love it. It is soooo simple to use and has all needed tutorials built in.
Just try, you won't be disappointed.
I have just installed SketchyPhysics, and to tell you the truth, I will need another few hours to get use to it.
Anyway, I'll try to implement "our" model ASAP.
BTW. I confirm that I have no such problems like Mondrasek is experiencing with WM2D.

regards,

Tracker 

It will be very interesting indeed if this effect will be reproduced in another program. Is SketchyPhysics similar to WM2D
Title: Re: ABELING CONCEPT WM2D MODEL
Post by: Cherryman on April 10, 2009, 07:48:55 PM
Well, that was fun...

There are so many variables to set in wm2d that I went nuts. Spheres falling out of constraints. Shit.

Here now what I have been working on.

You are looking at a side view here. The spheres do NOT represent the weights but the extended axles of the dumbbell weights.

The flow can be shown clearly now. please remember the frontal view of the dumbbells I showed you earlier and keep that in mind.

Without motor all kinds of constraint and overlap errors occur, I do NOT know enough about wm2d to fix those to put the model to a real test and look for acceleration(it does!!). I changed so many textures I am a bit lost, but you can see the flow concept and we should take it from there.

Model attached.

EDIT: I FORGOT TO MENTION... YES WHEN YOU LET IT RUN OF A FEW SECONDS (IGNORE THE OVERLAP ERRORS), THEN STOP, THEN SELECT START HERE AND REPLACE THE MOTOR WITH A PIN (IGNORE THE WARNINGS) IT STARTS TO ACCELERATE AND COMPLETELY DESTRUCTS WITH BALLS FLYING EVERY WHERE WITHIN SECONDS. WARNINGS ALL OVER.

If you can make the model more sold, who knows? Also when the weight leaves the lower barrier is should remain motionless and then move right onto the upper barrier. So Yeah I need to slightly adjust the lower barrier (again) Coming off it now moves a little to the left, stops, and accelerates to the right into the upper barrier.

Just ignore the Warning:CoE violation messages  8)

Please comment and help clean up the model if you can, thanks.

Looks Good!

I like it.. I now see what you mean... and now  i understand the shape of the "creadles"in the outer ends!

Very good work! 
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 10, 2009, 08:00:07 PM
I took AquariuZ file, removed the motor, and normalized all the masses (some "balls" and arms were not equal weight).

Great work AquariuZ!

Unfortunately it does not appear to self run.

M.

You need to let it run for a few seconds before you remove the motor and you will see what I mean. It also depends where you remove the motor, bit hard to explain.

I will update the picture above to again show the extended axle dumbbells from the front so it is clear that the spheres are NOT the weights itself, but rather a sideview of one of the axles. (in yellow).

I do not know about you, but this flow concept is good enough for me to start building a prototype which will fit on a desktop. Initial size estimate would be 40cm height, including stands. ALL WOOD except for bearing, weight and axles.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: mondrasek on April 10, 2009, 08:01:47 PM
BTW. I confirm that I have no such problems like Mondrasek is experiencing with WM2D.

Tracker, open one of the files that has a motor.  Double click to get the properties box and make sure you have the motor selected in the top pull down menu.  Now change the Type pulldown from Torque to Velocity to Rotation and back.  On mine the value will spontaneously reset to some unknown value.  The file then becomes corrupt and may say zero velocity in this box but stil have a non zero value in use.  The problem does not appear for me if I do not scroll through the motor Types.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 10, 2009, 08:05:02 PM
Guys,

Here is the file with the motor velocity changed from -1 rad/sec to 0 rad/sec.  Only change.

Now it does not move because the motor is a brake.

Stefan, when I remove/delete the motor I also have the wheel spin backwards.  Not sure what Cherryman was doing with the other torques in the file.

M.

@mondrasek, well then, if we can't have a free turning rotor, unobstructed by a motor which even stopped acts like a brake, then what good is this program? Then, any attempt so far that had seemed negative might not have been negative.

OK, I saw the exchange between @Cherryman and @AquariuZ. Seems the motor can be replaced by a pin but how is that done?
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 10, 2009, 08:11:10 PM
@mondrasek, well then, if we can't have a free turning rotor, unobstructed by a motor which even stopped acts like a brake, then what good is this program? Then, any attempt so far that had seemed negative might not have been negative.

OK, I saw the exchange between @Cherryman and @AquariuZ. Seems the motor can be replaced by a pin but how is that done?


The safest way is to use a pin, and then to drop a weight on it what will fall off.. Then you have a starting speed, with no after influence.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: mondrasek on April 10, 2009, 08:11:17 PM
You need to let it run for a few seconds before you remove the motor and you will see what I mean. It also depends where you remove the motor, bit hard to explain.

I will update the picture above to again show the extended axle dumbbells from the front so it is clear that the spheres are NOT the weights itself, but rather a sideview of one of the axles. (in yellow).

I do not know about you, but this flow concept is good enough for me to start building a prototype which will fit on a desktop. Initial size estimate would be 40cm height, including stands. ALL WOOD except for bearing, weight and axles.


I'm not sure what you are trying to say.  I removed the motor by deleting it.  I replaced it with a pin joint (axle).  The wheel will sway back and forth but not spin.  If you add a free falling weight to collide with one arm to induce an initial spin it will also stop quickly.  So far the model appears to mimic the real world actions of any gravity wheel built with ramps to move the balls towards the axle.

I'm not saying Abeling does not have something real.  And I believe you have done a hell of a job investigating and modeling the path.  But I don't think the device is complete yet.  I think there must be some other mechanism(s) that gather energy in the lower left quadrant and use that to somehow accelerate the ball up the ramp.  And somehow this must also create an energy gain, if the wheel is to spin.

Abeling may have been happy to allow the video team to see the wheel as shown.  The critical piece(s) might not have been on display.

M.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: mondrasek on April 10, 2009, 08:12:35 PM

The safest way is to use a pin, and then to drop a weight on it what will fall off.. Then you have a starting speed, with no after influence.

Exactly!  I also put a fixed barrier with elasticity of .005 under the weight so it has a place to land.  If not it continues to fall forever and may blow up the program.  Also, if not stopped it is wasting computation cycles (time).
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 10, 2009, 08:14:08 PM
Exactly!

Better will be a selfstarting one!  ;D

Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: mindsweeper on April 10, 2009, 08:17:37 PM
A note on deleting calculated frames in WM2D

After you reset the simulation click Measure then Time, (time measure window opens) click it and delete or cut, all calculated frames are gone, save for minimal size.

Quick and easy and you don't have to touch the model.

Great thread by the way...
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 10, 2009, 08:19:45 PM
So, how does one get rid of this motor and why was it part of this construction in the first place?
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 10, 2009, 08:22:48 PM
So, how does one get rid of this motor and why was it part of this construction in the first place?

I Use motors to test the path of the balls, sometimes you want to control the speed during designing.

But i also dit think that after you let the motor getted stopped by thiming, it would run free....

Nou you guys say the motor (in this programme) will still cause drag???  ???

Then i have to relook a lot of my designs...     ::)
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: mondrasek on April 10, 2009, 08:27:08 PM
So, how does one get rid of this motor and why was it part of this construction in the first place?

Click on the motor so it is highlighted and hit the delete key on your keyboard.  If you cannot select the motor (sometimes other objects get selected) you can find it in the property box by doubleclicking any object and finding it in the pulldown menu.  Once you have it selected you must close the properties box.  Then hit delete like before.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 10, 2009, 08:28:09 PM
I Use motors to test the path of the balls, sometimes you want to control the speed during designing.

But i also dit think that after you let the motor getted stopped by thiming, it would run free....

Nou you guys say the motor (in this programme) will still cause drag???  ???

Then i have to relook a lot of my designs...     ::)

Let us see it first without the motor. How do you delete the motor forever and replace it by a pin? That's the first thing to be done. This is a great design and I intuitively feel the answer is somewhere there.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 10, 2009, 08:28:43 PM
So, how does one get rid of this motor and why was it part of this construction in the first place?

MODEL WITHOUT MOTOR ATTACHED
It accelerates for a few seconds then the path breaks and the spheres violate boundaries.

Please check accuracy settings to be Accuracy -> Custom -> Kutta-Merson (accurate) Fixed @ 0.005s

The motor was there for testing the flow.

A lot of work left to make a decent model out of this.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: mondrasek on April 10, 2009, 08:31:34 PM
MODEL WITHOUT MOTOR ATTACHED

AquariuZ,  the arms on that model are not all the same mass!  A few (3 I think) are waaaay heavier than the others.  That is why I normalized them in my previous modification posted.  Once that is corrected it does not accelerate.

Sorry,

M.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 10, 2009, 08:32:45 PM
Thanks, @AquariuZ, but that's not @Cherryman's design. I'd like to see his first without a motor.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Grimer on April 10, 2009, 08:55:44 PM
Hi Grimer,
looks good, so it is a right turning cycle process, right ?
How can we make the area inside the curve bigger, for more output ?
Can you please calculate this and let us know, how to do this in the real world ?

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.

Hi Stefan,
I've been swotting up on the history of Johann Bessler. What a fantastic story. It seems to me the evidence of his wheel's reality is very strong indeed. Which can only mean the Sjack has stumbled upon its secret. I suppose someone had to, sooner or later. I shall have to find the time line in relation to Carnot.

Cheers, Frank
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 10, 2009, 09:14:07 PM
Thanks, @AquariuZ, but that's not @Cherryman's design. I'd like to see his first without a motor.

Hmmm. This is getting confusing. Maybe the KAD deserves a thread of its own as the designs differ

What does Cherryman say?
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 10, 2009, 09:15:13 PM
AquariuZ,  the arms on that model are not all the same mass!  A few (3 I think) are waaaay heavier than the others.  That is why I normalized them in my previous modification posted.  Once that is corrected it does not accelerate.

Sorry,

M.

O. Well how do I clean it up? Select all arms and change props?
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: mondrasek on April 10, 2009, 09:21:37 PM
O. Well how do I clean it up? Select all arms and change props?

Yep.  WM2D sometimes assigns different masses to identical objects that are imported from DXF.  Don't know why...

BTW, all the ball/weights are okay.  Just the arms need fixing (or use my previously posted file where I removed the motor).

Also, just some tips:  You have the elasticity on the ramps at 0.  That would make it very "soft."  You'd actually want them to be of a hard material closer to 1.  I personally do not use 0 or 1 for friction or elasticity.  Doing so opens up the possibility that the program might try to divide by zero.  Not sure if it would error out or just not work right.  I put in values like .0001 for 0 and .99 for 1 in those fields.

M.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 10, 2009, 09:22:59 PM
Hmmm. This is getting confusing. Maybe the KAD deserves a thread of its own as the designs differ

What does Cherryman say?

They are all inspired by Sjack Abeling, aren't they? The problem is that Abeling isn't forthcoming and we have to guess what his design is. @Cheriryman's seems very promising so far. Stefan has more experience with these designs and he's skeptical (too few steel balls, too steep the ascending path and so on). This may be true but the direction I think is promising. Unfortunately, I have no experience with WM2D, in fact, today is the first day I'm using it, and that stands in the way of me being more flexible. Wonder what other programs are out there similar to WM2D, to see if the effects are reproducible.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 10, 2009, 09:26:18 PM
Yep.  WM2D sometimes assigns different masses to identical objects that are imported from DXF.  Don't know why...

BTW, all the ball/weights are okay.  Just the arms need fixing (or use my previously posted file where I removed the motor).

Got it thanks.

I deleted all vectors and momentum as well and let it go. It does not doe anything, and then very slowly starts to rotate LEFT. Uhuh.

I am going to experiment with the barriers as someone pointed out the top one seems to be much steeper.

Still confident this is the concept though. The rest is just tweaking until you get it right.

Look closely.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 10, 2009, 09:28:11 PM
They are all inspired by Sjack Abeling, aren't they? The problem is that Abeling isn't forthcoming and we have to guess what his design is. @Cheriryman's seems very promising so far. Stefan has more experience with these designs and he's skeptical (too few steel balls, too steep the ascending path and so on). This may be true but the direction I think is promising. Unfortunately, I have no experience with WM2D, in fact, today is the first day I'm using it, and that stands in the way of me being more flexible. Wonder what other programs are out there similar to WM2D, to see if the effects are reproducible.

Eh no, his KAD had nothing to do with Abeling as he explained earlier.

I just do not want to cloud the concept I am trying but I leave it up to him.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Grimer on April 10, 2009, 10:05:53 PM
Hi Stefan,
I've been swotting up on the history of Johann Bessler. What a fantastic story. It seems to me the evidence of his wheel's reality is very strong indeed. Which can only mean the Sjack has stumbled upon its secret. I suppose someone had to, sooner or later. I shall have to find the time line in relation to Carnot.

Cheers, Frank

Carnot's work was over a century after Bessler's wheel so Bessler must have developed his wheel by trial and error. I suppose what has prevented its re-discovery until now is the idea the a perpetual motion machine driven by gravity is impossible. demonstrably this is not the case as more perceptive people, like Harvey on Fizzx, realise.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: mondrasek on April 10, 2009, 10:17:34 PM
Still confident this is the concept though. The rest is just tweaking until you get it right.

I completely agree that you have modeled the intended path of weights in the wheel shown in the video.  Fantastic job with both the detective work and the models.  I just hope this wheel is representative of what Abeling says actually works, and not just attempts from before he found the key concept.  I also still wonder if the pictures are missing some other mechanism that works in conjunction with the wheel slots and static guides.

Remember that finding the right geometry for the slot profiles is probably as important as the guide profiles and angles.

One more pointer to speed your efforts.  If every slot is the same, this type of wheel should work with only two slots and weights 180 degrees apart.  Testing a single pair set up might go quicker.  Because if one weight cannot lift one opposite weight, eight of the same will still not lift eight more.

Good luck!  I hope you beat Abeling to his unveiling!

M.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: NerzhDishual on April 10, 2009, 10:31:53 PM
Hi guys,

This D shaped path let me think about these old French patents:

http://freenrg.info/Patents/PMM/FR0543065/FR543065A.pdf  (http://freenrg.info/Patents/PMM/FR0543065/FR543065A.pdf)
August 1922
Turbine autogène =/= Self running turbine


http://freenrg.info/Patents/PMM/FR0563952/FR563952A.pdf (http://freenrg.info/Patents/PMM/FR0563952/FR563952A.pdf)
October 1923
Roue motrice produisant une force gratuite =/=  Moving wheel producing a free force


But, these are just patents...  ;D

Very Best
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: canam101 on April 10, 2009, 10:44:17 PM
I don't care for this motor compared to Mylow's. The reason is that Mylow's motor involved complex interactions between magnets, and it was possible to fantasize that there was something mysterious and unknown to science going on.

But this wheel of Abelings is too easy to visualize. I mean, a ball rolls down a ramp, pulled by gravity, then rolls up the other side of the ramp. It is obvious that the ball will not reach the same height as it started out at because of friction. We've all played with something like this at one time or another.

It just isn't mysterious enough. And Abeling's flimsy-looking wooden gizmo isn't too inspiring either.

If Abeling could work in a few magnets, he might have something, but I don't think this one can go very far, at least not to the 230 message mark that Mylow's is at.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 10, 2009, 11:55:56 PM
Good luck!  I hope you beat Abeling to his unveiling!

M.

So far I seem to have created a balanced wheel..  8)

Thanks, I appreciate the comments
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 10, 2009, 11:57:53 PM
It just isn't mysterious enough. And Abeling's flimsy-looking wooden gizmo isn't too inspiring either.

In that case he has fooled many, including me...

But, ofcourse if it were that simple it would have been invented 200 years ago.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 11, 2009, 12:22:36 AM
Q: Where does the extra energy come from?
A: The weights are applied two by two: one weight is pushing/falling, the other one has to be lifted. Due to the invention of the dual lifting system , the falling/pushing weight will hardly be hindered by the weight that has to be lifted. In the top left of the system the weight is accelerated (like with shot put). The weight is moving faster than the system, and as the system catches the weight it is propelled forward. The path of the weights in the system is determined up front so the weights are always in a fixed position relative to each other and that will reduce the drag of the lifted weight on the falling/pushing weight. The system will start rotating from any position. Extra force is generated in the lower left of the system and on top it is transferred to the system itself, generating the extra energy. If the system would fail to catch the propelled weight, the weight would be ejected from the system with force.

The system starts from any position
Weights are propelled

How?
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 11, 2009, 12:42:46 AM
Seems we keep getting stuck with balance,...

Here a slow one (With motorwarning  ;D )
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: spinner on April 11, 2009, 01:04:40 AM
@Grimer
Thanks for your explanations!
Although i can't agree with everything you said, i still like your views on inertial mechanics....Hey, Mr. Laithwaite's work... We talked about it once...

Btw, high order derivatives (like the rate of change of acceleration) are just a mathematical description of a physical motion (not an energy source).

It would be interesting what kind of real values for a "rate of change of acceleration" would you be getting, for instance, when calculating an integral of a closed path of a weight in a "gravity wheel"....
I'd say this 3rd derivative would be very small, but still a negative number after completing a full circle.


Quote
by AB Hammer
I keep looking and reading, but after so many builds, I think I will wait on a video or other proof. Simply put, ramps have always been tried and so far no proof of one working. If Sjack has it patented, why not show the working wheel?
Indeed!


Btw,  Ramps and rolling balls are a recipe for... Ah, never mind.
Let's say they're just not the most optimal combination for a successful gravity wheel.

Anyway, you can check your concepts easily.
True gravity/overbalanced wheel would start from a standstill all by it's own.


@AquariuZ
I was surprised when I read that Henkel answered your e-mail. "Glue attachments challenges"? Why not! And they say it's a serious project...
(quantity of the glue needed?)

I hope you'll get an answer from that other institution, too. (Dutch authority which supposedly gave a permission to build the Abeling Gravity plants)...
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Dusty on April 11, 2009, 01:14:27 AM
I have a different idea as to how this wheel works, so here is a video as to how I think it works:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jh7GAUYg_E8&feature=channel_page

Over this weekend I'm going to build a unit and see if my theory is correct.

Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 11, 2009, 01:23:04 AM
I have a different idea as to how this wheel works, so here is a video as to how I think it works:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jh7GAUYg_E8&feature=channel_page

Over this weekend I'm going to build a unit and see if my theory is correct.



Good thinking about the different slots!

I'm not sure what you mean about the "Skateboard" so looking forward to your built!

This one works with one bar also...  (With motor ) So maybe the Skateboard wil do the trick!  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSaKQEn0Wwc&feature=channel_page

Good Luck!
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 11, 2009, 01:24:27 AM
@Cherryman,

Can you remove the motor altogether replacing it by a pin and make sure that there's noting anywhere in the program acting as a motor? I'm talking about your KAD9 as well as KAD10.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Grimer on April 11, 2009, 01:36:52 AM

Btw, high order derivatives (like the rate of change of acceleration) are just a mathematical description of a physical motion (not an energy source).

Absolutely right. And the isothermal legs and adiabatic legs of the Carnot cycle are also just mathematical descriptions of piston motion and are not in themselves an energy source either. It is the way they are put together that makes them derive energy from the thermal gradient. I'm sure you are intelligent enough to realise that.  ;D

After all, as Harvey has pointed out on Fizzx, there's nothing new about deriving energy from gravity. Tides do it all the time. Think of the Bessler Wheel as a human scale tide. It makes it feel more homely.  ;)
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 11, 2009, 01:37:23 AM
@Cherryman,

Can you remove the motor altogether replacing it by a pin and make sure that there's noting anywhere in the program acting as a motor? I'm talking about your KAD9 as well as KAD10.

I Can do that, but it doesn't work the, otherwise i would be cheering a little harder  ;D

I think it's a bug in WD2D that when you remove the motor the structure falls apart..  So I have to rebuilt them.. That will be not tonight.

You can do it yorself to. Just select and erease everything besides the shapes and rebuilt it. It ain't that many parts.

Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Grimer on April 11, 2009, 01:57:15 AM

@AquariuZ
I was surprised when I read that Henkel answered your e-mail. "Glue attachments challenges"? Why not! And they say it's a serious project...
(quantity of the glue needed?)

Glue is used in the manufacture of fibreglass composite. If glued composites are good enough for the wings of the A380 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A380) I guess they are good enough for a Bessler Wheel, eh!

Bessler used wood, a natural composite. But I've no doubt he would have used fibre glass if he were building his wheel today. Boat builders also used to use natural composite but have now turned to man made composite.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 11, 2009, 02:04:36 AM
@canam101,

I don't care for this motor compared to Mylow's. The reason is that Mylow's motor involved complex interactions between magnets, and it was possible to fantasize that there was something mysterious and unknown to science going on.

Mylow’s and any other magnet motor for that matter doesn’t differ in its basic principle from a gravity motor because ultimately it’s a contraption which defies the commonly held belief that conservative forces cannot be harnessed through a proper construction to cause displacement for which no energy from a pre-existing energy reservoir is spent. This is what’s unrecognized rather than unknown, in science. A gravity motor, such as the one allegedly constructed by Sjack Abeling is in many respects more interesting in common conditions than a magnet motor because of the ubiquitous gravity. Of course, a magnetic motor is more independent and can work also under conditions of no gravity, in space, say.

Quote
But this wheel of Abelings is too easy to visualize. I mean, a ball rolls down a ramp, pulled by gravity, then rolls up the other side of the ramp. It is obvious that the ball will not reach the same height as it started out at because of friction. We've all played with something like this at one time or another.

It just isn't mysterious enough. And Abeling's flimsy-looking wooden gizmo isn't too inspiring either.

If Abeling could work in a few magnets, he might have something, but I don't think this one can go very far, at least not to the 230 message mark that Mylow's is at.

We’ve all played with a ball, as you describe it. However, we’ve never played with a contraption whereby the ball you’re talking about will be assisted by another ball to reach the same height as it started out and overcome friction, the same way that other ball will be assisted by still another ball and so on and so forth, all that due to a certain very specific construction of a device. We’ve never played with such a thing and Sjack Abeling not only claims he has it but he says he’s turning it into an industry. That’s no joke, if true, and Mylow’s, also if true, pales in comparison, at present.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 11, 2009, 02:14:12 AM
@spinner,

Quote
Anyway, you can check your concepts easily.
True gravity/overbalanced wheel would start from a standstill all by it's own.

But that’s what Sjack Abeling claims his device is doing.

Quote
I hope you'll get an answer from that other institution, too. (Dutch authority which supposedly gave a permission to build the Abeling Gravity plants)...

But you may say again ‘why not?’, if this Dutch institution confirms it has indeed given the permission, the way you said it regarding Henkel. If Henkel’s confirmation isn’t convincing enough to you why should this be? The truth is, nothing can prove the validity of Sjack Abeling’s claim or any other claim for that matter but independent verification by third parties.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 11, 2009, 02:19:57 AM
I Can do that, but it doesn't work the, otherwise i would be cheering a little harder  ;D

I think it's a bug in WD2D that when you remove the motor the structure falls apart..  So I have to rebuilt them.. That will be not tonight.

You can do it yorself to. Just select and erease everything besides the shapes and rebuilt it. It ain't that many parts.



Please, rebuild these two (KAD9 and KAD10) without a motor. I'm new to this and don't know how to do it. From my perspective to include a motor in these simulations makes no sense. Motor activity should be excluded by presumption in it's entirety and there should be no hidden activities that may suggest that the rotor is driven by a motor in any way. I thought setting torque to zero and zeroing out the velocities and such would be sufficient but obviously it isn't. That's very contradictory but that's how the program works.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 11, 2009, 02:39:11 AM
I have a different idea as to how this wheel works, so here is a video as to how I think it works:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jh7GAUYg_E8&feature=channel_page

Over this weekend I'm going to build a unit and see if my theory is correct.

Great input! Also it is fun to see my snapshots being used for the higher goal...

You may very well be onto something as he clearly states that the weights move in pairs, the path is preset through the system and : while one weight is falling another is being lifted without effort (friction?)

Really looking forward to your ideas, this is what it is all about!!
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 11, 2009, 02:40:34 AM
Please, rebuild these two (KAD9 and KAD10) without a motor. I'm new to this and don't know how to do it. From my perspective to include a motor in these simulations makes no sense. Motor activity should be excluded by presumption in it's entirety and there should be no hidden activities that may suggest that the rotor is driven by a motor in any way. I thought setting torque to zero and zeroing out the velocities and such would be sufficient but obviously it isn't. That's very contradictory but that's how the program works.

The reason i use a motor is that to get the rotational speed to make the difference , you need a start speed.  And with the way i build my model i cannot drop a ball on to the,. I haven't got time now to rebuilt. Maybe tomorrow evening, sorry.

Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Grimer on April 11, 2009, 09:06:25 AM
@spinner,

But that’s what Sjack Abeling claims his device is doing.

But you may say again ‘why not?’, if this Dutch institution confirms it has indeed given the permission, the way you said it regarding Henkel. If Henkel’s confirmation isn’t convincing enough to you why should this be? The truth is, nothing can prove the validity of Sjack Abeling’s claim or any other claim for that matter but independent verification by third parties.

Good post, Omnibus. :)

I knew nothing about Bessler's wheels until I looked it up the history very recently. The amazing thing I find is that there was heaps of confirmation by independent parties of its working. How people failed to discover his "secret" over all these years is the real mystery to me.  ???

Sjack's claims dovetail perfectly with the history of Bessler's invention.

I look forward to the fat lady's singing. 8)

Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 11, 2009, 09:38:36 AM
@Grimer,

The communication means during the times of Bessler are incomparable to what we have now, wouldn't you agree? Nowadays such a thing will spread like wildfire if there's anything to it and no one would be able to contain it. In this respect it's interesting to see how people like Abeling are still holding on to the old-fashioned ways such as patents of protecting their rights. Full disclosure and ensuring that it's reproduced by as many people as possible is the best way nowadays to protect your rights for a construction which can hardly contain trade secrets. Do you think the world would ignore the fact that Mylow was the first to demonstrate a perpetuum mobile, had it had any merit to it and innumerable fellows around the world had reproduced it? I don't think so. The permission by whatever Dutch institution is also curious. While it may work for the benefit of the Dutch government in a short term, it will be beyond control in a not so far future if it really is true and no one will ask for their permission.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Philip Hardcastle on April 11, 2009, 09:49:51 AM
Hi guys,

I just want to know.

Where is there any theory or proof?

Your efforts are amazing but I cannot figure how 4 people of better than average intellignece can be so illogical. What am i missing?

I am not trying to be negative or sceptical but you surely must have something to hang your hats on.

Talk of rumours of mad inventors machines that worked is pseudo religious.

If we want to take it to that level we should all go to religious books and see what the Gods say about free energy.

Perhaps Noah's ark was powered by rubber band motors or overbalancing wheels since there is no reference to sails.

Guys, please tell me where is there evidence of this project having any, any possibility of success¡

Phil
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 11, 2009, 10:01:31 AM
@Philip Hardcastle,

I've already answered you. It can be shown that with a proper construction displacement can be induced under the action of a conservative force without the expenditure of energy from a pre-existing energy reservoir. That has already been proven conclusively and what we're doing here is to find out ways to have such displacement occur continuously. This thread has more of a practical side than just discussing over and over again what has already been proven.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Philip Hardcastle on April 11, 2009, 10:08:17 AM
@omnibus,

I think you have already said you do not want to go into it.

Show me the conclusive proof.

I am willing to suspend my belief system if you can show me such.

I have a long record of invention and lateral thinking, extensive multi field training and experience so I think I am the sort of person you would want to at least talk to.

Show me something, then if it makes sense I could contribute.

Just give me a link to go read the conclusive proof.

Otherwise I will conclude that you are all smoking something a bit too strong.

Regards Phil
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 11, 2009, 10:26:57 AM
@Philip Hardcastle,

Can you give an e-mail address where to send a link. I don't want to discuss this further and I'll only send you the link privately because you so insist, so that you can see what I have in mind.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Philip Hardcastle on April 11, 2009, 10:33:27 AM
@omnibus

ok

it is on my profile but here is

pjhardcastle@gmail.com

Phil
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 11, 2009, 10:37:12 AM
@omnibus

ok

it is on my profile but here is

pjhardcastle@gmail.com

Phil

Thanks. Just sent it.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Philip Hardcastle on April 11, 2009, 10:43:21 AM
@omni,

got it, thanks.

I will read thrice then return.

Phil
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Philip Hardcastle on April 11, 2009, 11:48:37 AM
@omni

Sorry to be blunt, and I know you do not want a debate, but anyone saying that it is proved by that essay is not being rational.

It is not the basis for anything and certainly extracting from it some sense as to support all these efforts is misguided. Mistakes start from the first few paragraphs and are then built upon to form a misdirection of common sense.

A bit like the old story

"A guy is given $10 by each of three ladies to go buy 3 bottles of wine, he buys the wine at $10 a bottle, $30 in all. However the merchant says, sorry I have over charged you, that wine is on special, here is $5 refund.

The guy thinks to himself walking back that splitting $5 is a bit tricky so he decides to give the ladies back a dollar each.

So he gives back each lady a dollar and gives them each a bottle of wine.

So they each paid $9 for a total of $27, and the guy kept $2 so 27 + 2 = $29.

So what happened to the other dollar?"


This is an old nonsense puzzle and so is that CoE violation paper.

I did read the paper twice and started to mark it up but thought, omni is smart enough to see this himself, and if not he maybe sees something I am missing.

I do not believe so, however I respect all your  rights to pursue non scientific ideas and will leave you to do your own thing.

Also I note that despite showing a preparedness to share my ideas they are ignored.

I note that no one comments on RTG or Curled Ballistic.

I guess I do not fit in here, and I do not wish to offend, so I must go and do, instead of talking.

Best wishes to all.


Philip Hardcastle.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 11, 2009, 12:10:55 PM
There is no solid undeniable proof. If there were the whole world would be in or travelling to Ter Apel to see Abeling right at this moment. A small town trampled like in  "Swing Vote".

There are only hints, clues and many of them.

Things like Chas Campbell's snooker wheel (I also modelled that one, sigh) are easy to disprove, but Abeling, given the above might have something if a whole list of investors and reputable firms want to do business with him. That is the main indication Abeling has something. Adding to that the way he is handling things AND I have spoken to him personally (which may or may not mean anything to anyone) and found that he is rational, calm and not sensationalist leads me personally to believe he has found something.

Let us not forget he told me he did not need money because he has all the funding he needs right now. This should tell you this is not another "standard scam" where e.g. plans are sold or people's money is being taken to reserve a device which will come out in the near future. You all know who I mean.

Now, we can try and reproduce, debate or do nothing and risk losing the invention to corporate.

Take your pick and please fill in the blanks in the claim below.

This new physical theory will explain how to generate energy by rotating two bodies with the same mass/weight. The weight of the bodies together with (.....BLANK...) (intentionally omitted) and the rotational velocity determine the amount of energy that can be generated.

The new physical theory explains the working of the Weight Power Plant ("Gewicht Energie Centrale") developed by Sjack Abeling. In this plant, the mass of the bodies is controlled in such a way that from a complete standstill to a rotation of 180 degrees, 80% more energy is generated than required to propel the system itself. The only source of energy required is the earth's gravity...


BTW I think Dusty maybe onto something with his dumbbell cross or "race car", but I disagree with his theory about the holes being simply trial and error creations. The video did state this was a prototype so who knows. I really hope we (including myself) will not start to lose interest in this fascinating topic and we can nail the concept.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: CLaNZeR on April 11, 2009, 12:28:33 PM
The reason i use a motor is that to get the rotational speed to make the difference , you need a start speed.  And with the way i build my model i cannot drop a ball on to the,. I haven't got time now to rebuilt. Maybe tomorrow evening, sorry.



Nice animations Cherryman

Can you export any of those frames as DXF's from that application?

Cheers

Sean.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 11, 2009, 12:38:58 PM
@Philip Hardcastle,

You did not keep the agreement. I did not ask for your opinion in sending the text and I specifically said I don't want to discuss this. Uttering the nonsense you've uttered above is starting a discussion and this is deplorable once you've agreed not to discuss it.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 11, 2009, 02:26:47 PM
@Philip Hardcastle,

You did not keep the agreement. I did not ask for your opinion in sending the text and I specifically said I don't want to discuss this. Uttering the nonsense you've uttered above is starting a discussion and this is deplorable once you've agreed not to discuss it.

Omnibus can you please PM me this documentation. I would be very interested in reading it and will not comment in public on it.

Contrary to some individuals in here you seem committed with a scientific basis for being so which makes me curious,

Thanks in advance
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 11, 2009, 02:30:05 PM
@omni

Sorry to be blunt, and I know you do not want a debate, but anyone saying that it is proved by that essay is not being rational.

It is not the basis for anything and certainly extracting from it some sense as to support all these efforts is misguided. Mistakes start from the first few paragraphs and are then built upon to form a misdirection of common sense.

A bit like the old story

"A guy is given $10 by each of three ladies to go buy 3 bottles of wine, he buys the wine at $10 a bottle, $30 in all. However the merchant says, sorry I have over charged you, that wine is on special, here is $5 refund.

The guy thinks to himself walking back that splitting $5 is a bit tricky so he decides to give the ladies back a dollar each.

So he gives back each lady a dollar and gives them each a bottle of wine.

So they each paid $9 for a total of $27, and the guy kept $2 so 27 + 2 = $29.

So what happened to the other dollar?"


This is an old nonsense puzzle and so is that CoE violation paper.

I did read the paper twice and started to mark it up but thought, omni is smart enough to see this himself, and if not he maybe sees something I am missing.

I do not believe so, however I respect all your  rights to pursue non scientific ideas and will leave you to do your own thing.

Also I note that despite showing a preparedness to share my ideas they are ignored.

I note that no one comments on RTG or Curled Ballistic.

I guess I do not fit in here, and I do not wish to offend, so I must go and do, instead of talking.

Best wishes to all.


Philip Hardcastle.

Philip, I would seriously doubt that this forum is here to defend the CoE law, wouldn´t you agree?

There cannot be technological evolution without fresh looks at dusty matter, especially if you are not hampered by formal scientific education.

Funny thing is, the first thing any decent professor will teach you is to question everything. That would include the law of CoE.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: eisenficker2000 on April 11, 2009, 02:34:17 PM
Just another interpretation..from a Dutch engineer..Yep roots in the north, I know ter Apel.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 11, 2009, 02:38:37 PM
@AquariuZ,

Can you give me your e-mail address? Thanks.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 11, 2009, 02:42:50 PM
@eisenficker2000,

Thanks for sharing. The idea seems very similar to that of @Cherryman. Wonder how close it is to Abeling's. Have you shown it to him?
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 11, 2009, 02:46:44 PM
@eisenficker2000,

Thanks for sharing. The idea seems very similar to that of @Cherryman. Wonder how close it is to Abeling's. Have you shown it to him?

Hey! I started that theory!

 ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 11, 2009, 02:48:25 PM
Just another interpretation..from a Dutch engineer..Yep roots in the north, I know ter Apel.

Hi! And welcome, thanks for sharing and please jion the discussion

I tried modelling this, but results were negative so far.

Trying to figure out the weights, shape and interconnectivity at the moment.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 11, 2009, 02:55:20 PM
@AquariuZ,

Would be interesting to model @eisenficker2000's idea in WM2D exactly as he proposes it with the groove etc. and then maybe play with the pattern of the groove as well as with the rest of the elements (weight of spheres, material and so on).
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 11, 2009, 03:11:03 PM
@AquariuZ,

Would be interesting to model @eisenficker2000's idea in WM2D exactly as he proposes it with the groove etc. and then maybe play with the pattern of the groove as well as with the rest of the elements (weight of spheres, material and so on).

I already posted that model earlier, but here it is again... PS: I did play with moving the barriers all around (because I saw the barriers on the video) and as of yet no self running, but at best a balanced wheel.

Also, to eisenficker2000: WHAT IF THE WEIGHTS ARE CONNECTED VIA A BAR PAIRING THEM IN 2 X 2

Inspired by Dusty
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: mondrasek on April 11, 2009, 03:14:50 PM
I think it's a bug in WD2D that when you remove the motor the structure falls apart..  So I have to rebuilt them..

You should be able to delete the motor and replace it with a pin joint.  I do it all the time.

FWIW, I will usually construct a wheel using a pin joint for an axle first.  If I want to force rotation to visualize the motion during rotation, I put a motor on top of the pin joint.  Then when you delete the motor the pin joint axle is still there.

Omni, if you can point me to just which sim file you want the motor removed from, I can do it if you have not been able to.  Also, please PM me any questions you have with how to use WM2D and I'll answer as best I can.  Or maybe we should start a WM2D users thread with tips and Q&A?   I recommend that everyone at lease take the 15 minutes to do the tutorials as well.  Very basic, but it gets you going.

M.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: mondrasek on April 11, 2009, 03:24:06 PM
I have a different idea as to how this wheel works, so here is a video as to how I think it works:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jh7GAUYg_E8&feature=channel_page

Over this weekend I'm going to build a unit and see if my theory is correct.

Dusty, good luck with your idea! 

I wanted to reiterate that any system like this should work with only two weights at 180 degrees apart on a wheel as you have stated.  But once you have a positive torque due to one pair (and a self starting and running system), you would want to add more pairs.  This increases the amount of usable output torque.  So if you get an output torque of say 1 N.m from one pair, you would get 8 x 1 = 8 N.m from eight pairs.

Likewise, if it doesn't run with one pair, you actually have a resisting torque.  Adding more pairs will  increase the amount of resiting torque.  So adding additional pairs will cause a wheel to spin even less when an identical impulse is used to give it initial motion.

Therefore, the most expedient test method would be to model or build only one weight pair per test.  I agree that Abeling's wheel in the video appears to have been testing different slot profiles.  But then his production model would use as many pairs of the optimal slot profiles as he could assemble on the wheel.

M.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Grimer on April 11, 2009, 04:30:42 PM
I've come across quite a nice suggestion of how the Bessler wheel could work

http://www.orffyre.com/speculation.html (http://www.orffyre.com/speculation.html)

This represents the essence of the device I feel. If the attachment of the weights was more flexible and a barrier hangs down so they are drawn up vertically to get the full d3/dt3 action, then we have the Abeling arrangement.

Two comments worthy of note:

 His Highness, who possesses all the qualities that a great prince should have, has always had consideration for the inventor, and will not use the machine in any way for fear of the secret being discovered before the inventor had received a reward from foreigners. His Highness, who has a perfect understanding of mathematics, assured me that the machine is so simple that a carpenter's boy could understand and make it after having seen the inside of this wheel, and that he would not risk his name in giving these attestations, if he did not have knowledge of the machine...' - letter from Joseph Fischer to J.T. Desaguliers, 1721.

Orffyreus commented that when the secret is revealed, he is afraid that people will complain that the idea is so simple it is not worth the asking price.

This latter comment has been echoed by Sjack Abeling.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 11, 2009, 05:40:30 PM
Sorry, @AquariuZ, didn't know you started that idea. Didn't follow the thread too closely so I've missed the exact sequence of events. What we need now is a working model and we should all put our heads together. Good luck.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 11, 2009, 05:43:47 PM
@mondrasek,

Thank you very much for your willingness to help in sorting out the issues with WM2D. Could you please remove the motor in @Cherryman's KAD9 and KAD10 and replace it by a pin. How do you actually do that? Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: mondrasek on April 11, 2009, 06:25:10 PM
@mondrasek,

Thank you very much for your willingness to help in sorting out the issues with WM2D. Could you please remove the motor in @Cherryman's KAD9 and KAD10 and replace it by a pin. How do you actually do that? Thanks in advance.

Omni, could you post where they are or re-post them?  I want to make sure I change the specific ones you want.  I also don't want to search and reread the entire thread looking for them.

M.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 11, 2009, 06:32:44 PM
@Omnibus
I was not serious, I could not care less who gets it first as long as we get it. Actually Cherryman thought of a curving ramp, and I thought of the inside outside path... Both seem incorrect at this time but looking at Grimers link I must say

@Grimer
VERY INTERESTING
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 11, 2009, 06:34:26 PM
@mondrasek,

These are the original files @Cherryman posted (see attached)
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 11, 2009, 06:34:46 PM
@Omnibus

Open the model
Click on the motor to select it
Hit the delete key (motor disappears)
Go to the left and select a pin (green circle)
Go back to where themotor was and single click to drop the pin wm2d will indicate the center of the object with "X"

Now you have replaced the motor with a pin.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 11, 2009, 06:48:12 PM
@mondrasek,

These are the original files @Cherryman posted (see attached)

KAD9 with pin attached

What do you wish to be done to KAD10? (The motor is not attached to the wheel in KAD10)
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 11, 2009, 06:58:16 PM
@AquariuZ,

Thanks a lot. I tried KAD9 but it's acting weird. One would expect a clockwise turn but it's turning counter clockwise. As for KAD10, I though @Cherryman said it has a motor. Otherwise, if it's freewheeling, then that's it.

I'm zeroing out all velocities in Properties but it keeps turning couter clockwise nevertheless.

I notice it keeps reverting to V0 = 1 rad/s. How can I zero out everything, keep it that way and have it as a default?
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: mondrasek on April 11, 2009, 07:03:12 PM
The motor in KAD10 is in the small wheel to the side.  It is "geared" to the big wheel to drive it.  I have removed.

Motor removed file attached.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 11, 2009, 07:06:20 PM
@Cherryman

I must say your models look very very good.

Thanks for the hard work and sharing
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: mondrasek on April 11, 2009, 07:07:41 PM
Besides the motor in KAD9, Cherryman also assigned a rotation of 1 rad/sec to the main wheel element (didn't know you could do that).  I have removed both and the altered file is attached.

M.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: mondrasek on April 11, 2009, 07:09:33 PM
@Cherryman

I must say your models look very very good.

Thanks for the hard work and sharing

Agreed!  Your learning curve with WM2D was alarmingly fast.

M.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 11, 2009, 07:23:16 PM
@mondrasek,

Thanks a lot. However, if that's freewheeling, then it seems to work just fine, unless there's still someting hidden which acts as a motor. Can you check it out? Thanks. (see attached)
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: persume on April 11, 2009, 07:44:36 PM
Omnibus what's with the masonic quote? That was free masonery wasn't it, the part about the alpha and omega and the traveler?
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: persume on April 11, 2009, 07:48:11 PM
"Orffyreus commented that when the secret is revealed, he is afraid that people will complain that the idea is so simple it is not worth the asking price.

This latter comment has been echoed by Sjack Abeling."

Hey guess what Grimer, a lot has been echoed by Sjack Abeling.
 
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 11, 2009, 07:49:20 PM
Omnibus what's with the masonic quote? That was free masonery wasn't it, the part about the alpha and omega and the traveler?

Masonic quote?
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: persume on April 11, 2009, 07:51:57 PM
Sure, you know the post where you asked aquariuz if he was a fellow traveler following a star in a desert for 40 days, since he had the alpha and omega in his name. That was you wasn't it?
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: CLaNZeR on April 11, 2009, 07:53:04 PM
Knocked up a Bhaskara's Indian Wheel today. I know it is meant to have lots of little ball bearings, which I have to order but for now using a couple of small bearings in each slot.

Got some magnet ideas I want to try with it when it is mounted.

Off to make the base and uprights and will start a new thread to cover progress if any LOL

Cheers

Sean.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: mondrasek on April 11, 2009, 07:58:43 PM
@mondrasek,

Thanks a lot. However, if that's freewheeling, then it seems to work just fine, unless there's still someting hidden which acts as a motor. Can you check it out? Thanks. (see attached)

Omni, that is messed up.  What you posted is NOT the same file that I posted.  When I open your attachment the balls are in different locations and there is an immediate collision error.  Did you change something or play with it before sending it back?

I downloaded what I had posted and it was fine.  I am attaching it again as a different file.  Maybe it became corrupt in download to you?  Or else it has to do with the version of WM2D you have vs. what I have?

M.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 11, 2009, 08:10:26 PM
@mondrasek,

Yes, I moved one ball up and put it on the first upper empty groove. This is the starting position which will cause the wheel to turn clockwise. That's the only thing I changed.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: persume on April 11, 2009, 08:10:30 PM
AquariuZ, question, how did you know that the white circle was the axle?
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 11, 2009, 08:11:22 PM
Sure, you know the post where you asked aquariuz if he was a fellow traveler following a star in a desert for 40 days, since he had the alpha and omega in his name. That was you wasn't it?

No, you must be confusing me with someone else. Sorry.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: persume on April 11, 2009, 08:29:48 PM
Hi Omnibus. Sorry I had to go back and try to find it. The quote was from Grimer;

"Who am I? A man from the west who has been following a star across the desert for 40 years. When I see a handle which begins with alpha and ends with omega what else should I think but that perhaps I have met a fellow traveller on the same journey."

Grimer isn't that a free masonry quote? From a possible member to another?
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: 0c on April 11, 2009, 08:40:43 PM
... isn't that a free masonry quote? From a possible member to another?

Revelation 1:8, King James Bible
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_and_Omega

(Now back to your regularly scheduled topic.)
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: mondrasek on April 11, 2009, 08:57:09 PM
@mondrasek,

Yes, I moved one ball up and put it on the first upper empty groove. This is the starting position which will cause the wheel to turn clockwise. That's the only thing I changed.

Omni, I guess in doing so you also broke one of the constraints.  The system thought the ball you moved was also supposed to be in collision mode with the wheel.  Since it was sitting on the wheel you had two objects occupying the same space at the same time.  So the sim blew up.  If you want to fix that sim, first click the ball (so it is selected), then hold shift and click the clear wheel (now both the ball and wheel should be selected).  You then go to the top pulldown menu "Object" and select "Do Not Collide".

If you are wanting to learn WM2D, please PM me the questions.  Or start a WM2D users thread.  I don't see why we should clog this thread with WM2D Q&A.

Fixed file attached.

M.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Grimer on April 11, 2009, 09:01:15 PM
Hi Omnibus. Sorry I had to go back and try to find it. The quote was from Grimer;

"Who am I? A man from the west who has been following a star across the desert for 40 years. When I see a handle which begins with alpha and ends with omega what else should I think but that perhaps I have met a fellow traveller on the same journey."

Grimer isn't that a free masonry quote? From a possible member to another?

Wot! Me a mason? That's a laugh. ;D

Reminds me of the time when I was in a crisis meeting with Pilkingtons in no mans land (a Birmingham hotel) I was resisting their introduction of GRC (glass reinforced cement) pointing out that our research showed that after 5 years it had lost all its ductility and would fail. Long technical argument - unresolved. Their product champion, Dr.B. tried to browbeat me into agreeing with their interpretation of the results. I said,

"You're entitled to have your opinion Dr.B but you must allow me to have mine."

At which point he went ballistic, and finished up screaming,

"I'll hound you Grimer. I'll hound you. I'll hound you..."

Then he burst into tears.

One of the other Pilks scientists diplomatically suggested we adjourned.

I was told later that while we were all having a pee, Dr.B had said to our Head of Chemistry, Dr Gutt,

"That Grimer, he's a communist isn't he?" (I wore an astrakhan hat).

"No," said Gutt. "Far from it, he's a catholic."

(needless to say, after 5 years it did all fail)
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: persume on April 11, 2009, 09:05:10 PM
dam keyboard.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 11, 2009, 09:05:20 PM
Omni, I guess in doing so you also broke one of the constraints.  The system thought the ball you moved was also supposed to be in collision mode with the wheel.  Since it was sitting on the wheel you had two objects occupying the same space at the same time.  So the sim blew up.  If you want to fix that sim, first click the ball (so it is selected), then hold shift and click the clear wheel (now both the ball and wheel should be selected).  You then go to the top pulldown menu "Object" and select "Do Not Collide".

If you are wanting to learn WM2D, please PM me the questions.  Or start a WM2D users thread.  I don't see why we should clog this thread with WM2D Q&A.

Fixed file attached.

M.

It just started with a rotational speed of -0.700 rad/s (hehe)

If you set the circle and slots to say v=-0.100 rad/s you see something nice. Not acceleration though but very nice still. Playing with balls I am...

@Persume WHAT white circle?
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: mondrasek on April 11, 2009, 09:09:01 PM
Grimer,

How confident are you in your analysis with regards to:  http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q171/frank260332/Sjackcycle.jpg ?

If you are highly confident, can we start another thread so we can get more opinions from others with like analytical capabilities?  It is currently over my head, but I once could speak thermodynamics.  Just might could have to dust off the cobwebs and become more educified.

Thanks,

M.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: mondrasek on April 11, 2009, 09:14:14 PM
It just started with a rotational speed of -0.700 rad/s (hehe)

Of course!  Energy was added to the one ball to raise it up into the slot at 2 o'clock.  That energy is now spinning the wheel.  But is there enough energy in the system to lift a second ball into a slot at 2 o'clock?

Lift anything up and it will fall again.  But how to lift one thing up while another of equal mass falls the same distance and still have energy left over?

M.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: persume on April 11, 2009, 09:18:49 PM
AquariuZ you said the white circle in the logo ( you have it pictured in black on a modification you did ) was the axle of the wheel.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Grimer on April 11, 2009, 09:55:56 PM
Grimer,

How confident are you in your analysis with regards to:  http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q171/frank260332/Sjackcycle.jpg ?

If you are highly confident, can we start another thread so we can get more opinions from others with like analytical capabilities?  It is currently over my head, but I once could speak thermodynamics.  Just might could have to dust off the cobwebs and become more educified.

Thanks,

M.

Confident enough to discuss the thinking that underlies the analysis and I have no objection to you starting another thread to discuss it.

I am happy to answer questions and discuss things in a polite and calm manner. However, my experience of most forums, especially loosely moderated ones, is that when one introduces radically new viewpoints (like gravity being a vertical wind blowing steadily downward for instance) it so disturbs peoples view of things that discussions quickly dissolve into slanging matches.

And I've been in quite enough of those on the Steorn Forum.

I have been reading the history of the Bessler wheel. It provided plenty of examples of the kind of vitriolic opposition radically new ideas engender.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: itanimuLLi on April 11, 2009, 10:09:34 PM
how about this
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: mondrasek on April 11, 2009, 10:22:54 PM
Confident enough to discuss the thinking that underlies the analysis and I have no objection to you starting another thread to discuss it.

I am happy to answer questions and discuss things in a polite and calm manner. However, my experience of most forums, especially loosely moderated ones, is that when one introduces radically new viewpoints (like gravity being a vertical wind blowing steadily downward for instance) it so disturbs peoples view of things that discussions quickly dissolve into slanging matches.

And I've been in quite enough of those on the Steorn Forum.

I have been reading the history of the Bessler wheel. It provided plenty of examples of the kind of vitriolic opposition radically new ideas engender.

Thanks.  New thread here:  http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7225.new#new

I have to say that yours are one of the few posts on Steorn that I bother to read.  I mainly go there to see if there is any news on that front.  Appears to be as much bickering and off topic slanging there as happens here as well.

It is because of the Bessler info that I follow these threads on gravity wheels.  All my schooling and experiments confirm a gravity wheel cannot work.  But I cannot mentally resolve the information about Bessler.  How could he have fooled so many people for so long?  I cannot dismiss all that information as just an elaborate hoax.  So I am stuck looking for what he discovered.

I truly hope that Abeling has discovered something and is not caught up in a "it should work" idea that he has only proved in parts but not as a whole.  His comments that are similar to Bessler's makes me wonder, "Did he figure out what Bessler figured out?", or, "Is he educated about Bessler and using that info to fuel his hoax/delusion?".

M.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Grimer on April 12, 2009, 12:01:38 AM
Thanks.  New thread here:  http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7225.new#new

I have to say that yours are one of the few posts on Steorn that I bother to read.  I mainly go there to see if there is any news on that front.  Appears to be as much bickering and off topic slanging there as happens here as well.

It is because of the Bessler info that I follow these threads on gravity wheels.  All my schooling and experiments confirm a gravity wheel cannot work.  But I cannot mentally resolve the information about Bessler.  How could he have fooled so many people for so long?  I cannot dismiss all that information as just an elaborate hoax.  So I am stuck looking for what he discovered.

I truly hope that Abeling has discovered something and is not caught up in a "it should work" idea that he has only proved in parts but not as a whole.  His comments that are similar to Bessler's makes me wonder, "Did he figure out what Bessler figured out?", or, "Is he educated about Bessler and using that info to fuel his hoax/delusion?".

M.

If you approach Bessler's story as a piece of history and leave all your scientific prejudices behind, then in my view it is perfectly obvious that he had what he claimed and he had harvested the force of gravity, the gravitational potential, the vertical gravitational wind that blows steadily down.

It is enormously difficult to get rid of those prejudices. Even though intellectually, early in my career, I could see that the aether must exist, must hold things together, and that internal tensions were simply reduction in external pressure,  it was years before I felt it emotionally and it was only when I did feel it emotionally that I could harness the implications to my research.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: gyulasun on April 12, 2009, 12:18:53 AM
how about this

Very clever, I like it!

Gyula
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 12, 2009, 01:25:52 AM
AquariuZ you said the white circle in the logo ( you have it pictured in black on a modification you did ) was the axle of the wheel.

Abeling marked this with "As" which is the Dutch word for "Axle".
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 12, 2009, 01:27:39 AM
how about this

Very interesting concept and probably worth a try...
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 12, 2009, 01:52:41 AM
@itanimuLLi,

As several friends here said already, it's indeed a very interesting suggestion. I wish I knew how to model your idea with WM2D and then play with different conditions starting with elastic collision between different masses and then making it more and more inelastic.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 12, 2009, 02:34:20 AM
Of course, modeling with WM2D would be the easy way out. I guess, it shouldn’t be difficult for a skeptic who is versed in classical mechanics calculations to show rigorously why such proposal (@itanimuLLi’s proposal) demonstrates an impossible device. Maybe we, the proponents of the idea that devices such as this one are possible, can attempt to write the equations governing this system and prove the opposite, namely, that there are viable sets of conditions, classically, under which such device is possible. Would be interesting to see the clash of such proposals by the adherents of the pro and con. @itanimuLLi’s device gives an excellent opportunity for such classical analytical approach. This looks like a problem that would be given not exactly to first year physics students but maybe to PhD candidates (in a mainstream university it would probably sound like this – prove, using your knowledge of classical mechanics, that such device is impossible under any conditions; or that there are no conditions under which this device is possible).
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: persume on April 12, 2009, 05:16:16 AM
Allright let's make this interesting. I'll bet anyone $2000.00 that this device doesn't work.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 12, 2009, 05:18:00 AM
Where is Cherryman?

I love his inverted wheels and am using them for some great tests. Weight connected with rods looks very interesting...
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 12, 2009, 05:42:02 AM
Allright let's make this interesting. I'll bet anyone $2000.00 that this device doesn't work.

Boing fails. wm2d (flimsy) attached...
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: hansvonlieven on April 12, 2009, 08:18:13 AM
G'day all,

For those of you that are playing around with that inner ramp idea here is probably the most interesting version. It was designed in 1835 in England by Dixon Vallance. Instead of a ramp it features a belt.

Hans von Lieven
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: spinner on April 12, 2009, 10:29:26 AM
Quote
After all, as Harvey has pointed out on Fizzx, there's nothing new about deriving energy from gravity. Tides do it all the time. Think of the Bessler Wheel as a human scale tide. It makes it feel more homely.  Wink

Yes, but "we all know where the energy comes from" when observing the natural tide cyclus... How about water wheels "gravitational energy"? Why they don't use this ancient concept on an "ISS", for instance?  :P


Glue is used in the manufacture of fibreglass composite. If glued composites are good enough for the wings of the A380 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A380) I guess they are good enough for a Bessler Wheel, eh!

Bessler used wood, a natural composite. But I've no doubt he would have used fibre glass if he were building his wheel today. Boat builders also used to use natural composite but have now turned to man made composite.

Yes, good points... Fibreglass has many good properties! (I know the stuff because I'm a nautical enthusiast...)

But... (You know about my language problems).... If someone says "glass", I translate it as "glass", not "fibreglass"...
I can even  distinguish a "glue" from a "resin"... So we have a glue/glass and the fibreglass/resin terms...

OK... Building a "proof of a concept" device from wood and stuff is still believable project...

But for a "MW power" producing suitable materials...

...
So, Henkel is "officially confirmed" as provider of "gluing" substances for an "Abeling weight power plants"....
Hey, I can buy it....It's quite possible...

Cheers!
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 12, 2009, 10:55:30 AM
@spinner,

So, you think Henkel are in it just for the profit from their glue business and couldn’t care less that in doing so their name will be inevitably connected with a super controversial project? Interesting.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: spinner on April 12, 2009, 11:00:58 AM
@spinner,

But that’s what Sjack Abeling claims his device is doing.
...

But you may say again ‘why not?’, if this Dutch institution confirms it has indeed given the permission, the way you said it regarding Henkel. If Henkel’s confirmation isn’t convincing enough to you why should this be? The truth is, nothing can prove the validity of Sjack Abeling’s claim or any other claim for that matter but independent verification by third parties.

Hello, Omnibus!

Yes, I had Abeling statement (device starting from a standstill) in mind...
After I saw other concepts here - K.A.D., and others... (which were certainly not self-starting), I just made a remark...

...
If "Henkel Netherlands" is saying that "they're involved in the challenging glue techniques" for the "Abeling Weight power plant", then i can believe that...

At this point, we all don't know much about anything.... Especially the Sj's work. It's (like always) the believe/not believe issue....


My main point was - if the authority, the "commercial...."  (I don't exactly remember the official name of that Netherlands authority) would confirm that they really gave him a permission to build "weight/gravity" power plants all over the Netherland, that would be something else entirely....
 
...

And, yes, an official third party (trustfull independent verification) confirmation build is all what is needed...

Cheers!
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 12, 2009, 11:05:14 AM
So, we know it cannot work but, hey, why not make a buck off of it like Sterling does. We're in a really bad shape if reputable companies such as Henkel rationalizes it that way.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: spinner on April 12, 2009, 11:08:34 AM
@spinner,

So, you think Henkel are in it just for the profit from their glue business and couldn’t care less that in doing so their name will be inevitably connected with a super controversial project? Interesting.

No.
Do you think it's necessary that they know the "whole secret"?
I think I remember that Sjack A. "said" he is the only one who knows the truth... Beside his partners, investors?...

Why do you think that Henkel knows the whole story? Is this firm a partner? Could be.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 12, 2009, 11:14:40 AM
No.
Do you think it's necessary that they know the "whole secret"?
I think I remember that Sjack A. "said" he is the only one who knows the truth... Beside his partners, investors?...

Why do you think that Henkel knows the whole story? Is this firm a partner? Could be.


Aha, so now you allow for Henkel's engineers to forget their classical training and suppose there might be something to Abeling's claim. Based on what? If they don't have the evidence Henkel, in selling the glue not just for the profit but also because they believe somehow in the project without proper evidence, would appear more like a crank company than the reputable one we think it is, wouldn't it?
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Tink on April 12, 2009, 11:54:42 AM
Patent is online now, thank you Espacenet.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=item265
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: spinner on April 12, 2009, 12:01:35 PM
Aha, so now you allow for Henkel's engineers to forget their classical training and suppose there might be something to Abeling's claim. Based on what? If they don't have the evidence Henkel would appear more like a crank company than the reputable one we think it is, wouldn't it?

Sorry, but what guarantees you that they are indeed involved in this "controversial" project? Because of a few posts you read here? Because you talked to him?
What guaranties you that they (Henkel) knows the "whole story"? Did Henkel saw Abeling experiments and are now convinced this is a real deal? Why, for instance, a guy from some other Henkel's branch (high ranking doctor of chemistry from another branch which I happened to know well.....)

If this project is indeed so controversial (and secret), why would they be answering some "unknown guy from the web" request?


Yeah, could be.
I admit a find AquariuZ's posts sincere, so I have no problems with his reports. But I'd say we don't know much about what there may be really happening...


Btw, what classical training of the Henkel engineers are you alluding to? Are they specialised in chemistry, biology (maybe physics?), or, doh.., in  "FE" questions?
Yes, I know they most know the CoE and similar stuff (that's a basic... especially for technically educated experts).
Any conventionally trained expert would know that gravity motors are considered as impossible...

So, why does a commercialist from one of the Henkel units claims this really is a serious project ?

I'd like to know why, too.
Cheers!
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 12, 2009, 12:05:37 PM
Patent is online now, thank you Espacenet.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=item265

Thanks @Tink. Unfortunately it's in Dutch. Perhaps @Cherryman can help us understand what it's all about.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: spinner on April 12, 2009, 12:13:15 PM
Patent is online now, thank you Espacenet.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=item265
Thanks, Tink!

Aha.
Well, good luck with replicating....

If this are really the basics of "weight power  plant",  than you can have it....
Another ones bites the dust.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 12, 2009, 12:25:02 PM
@spinner,

Quote
Sorry, but what guarantees you that they are indeed involved in this "controversial" project?

Henkel is splashed all over Abeling's web page. You think they are gullible enough not to know that and not to realize this connects them with Abelings obviously (as seen directly from his web page) controversial project, correct?

Quote
Because of a few posts you read here? Because you talked to him?

Because of what his web site says. Do you want a quote?

[qupte]What guaranties you that they (Henkel) knows the "whole story"?[/quote]

You mean to tell me they can be folled by any passerby? You mean to tell me a website connecting their name with a super controversial project means nothing to them, is that what you mean? We're in a really bad shape if that's the case.

Quote
Did Henkel saw Abeling experiments and are now convinced this is a real deal?

Good question. They must have to allow such involvement of their name with his project (Sterling way of making a buck from non-working project excluded). Otherwise, they are as flimsy as they can get.

Quote
If this project is indeed so controversial (and secret), why would they be answering some "unknown guy from the web" request?

Maybe because they are so convinced, they've seen it and so on that it allows them to respond in this way to a question from the public. What else?

Quote
So, why does a commercialist from one of the Henkel units claims this really is a serious project ?

Because they really consider it a serious project, beyond than just a commercial activity for selling glue. What's in it for them to make it up -- present it to the public as a serious project while knowing it isn't? Just to sell more glue? Hardly.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 12, 2009, 12:25:59 PM
Thanks, Tink!

Aha.
Well, good luck with replicating....

If this are really the basics of "weight power  plant",  than you can have it....
Another ones bites the dust.

Cheers!

Why?
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 12, 2009, 12:30:00 PM
Please see this. Seems there's again something I'm overlooking. (see attached)
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: spinner on April 12, 2009, 12:32:20 PM
Why?

Because of what I saw on the "drawings" pages.

I don't understand the original language (Dutch)

Or maybe I'm just dead wrong.
Cheers!
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 12, 2009, 12:37:03 PM
Because of what I saw on the "drawings" pages.

I don't understand the original language (Dutch)

Or maybe I'm just dead wrong.
Cheers!

So, from what you saw on the "drawing" pages you think it won't work but at the same time you think you may be dead wrong about that. Is this covering your bets or what?
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: spinner on April 12, 2009, 12:39:22 PM
@spinner,

Henkel is splashed all over Abeling's web page. You think they are gullible enough not to know that and not to realize this connects them with Abelings obviously (as seen directly from his web page) controversial project, correct?

Because of what his web site says. Do you want a quote?

[qupte]What guaranties you that they (Henkel) knows the "whole story"?

You mean to tell me they can be folled by any passerby? You mean to tell me a website connecting their name with a super controversial project means nothing to them, is that what you mean? We're in a really bad shape if that's the case.

Good question. They must have to allow such involvement of their name with his project (Sterling way of making a buck from non-working project excluded). Otherwise, they are as flimsy as they can get.

Maybe because they are so convinced, they've seen it and so on that it allows them to respond in this way to a question from the public. What else?

Because they really consider it a serious project, beyond than just a commercial activity for selling glue. What's in it for them to make it up -- present it to the public as a serious project while knowing it isn't? Just to sell more glue? Hardly.


Omnibus, I'd like to see this would come true (like you would like, too).

No offence, if I'm sounding too skeptical.

We'll see, won't we?
Soon.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: spinner on April 12, 2009, 12:54:06 PM
So, from what you saw on the "drawing" pages you think it won't work but at the same time you think you may be dead wrong about that. Is this covering your bets or what?

Ok, your posts questions are just to quick for me...

The drawing pages? I see the weight paths. Nothing special. There are no "revolutionary mechanisms" which would use some other forces in a novel way.

I'm certainly not trying to "cover my bets".  If that's a questionnaire, you can count me as a "non believer" in this Abeling project.

I am just saying (for the record) that from what i saw here - so far, it's my opinion it doesn't work. It's probably just another delusion.
As simple as that. You can have all the glory at the successfull confirmation, no prob.

Not that I wouldn't like to see a working gravity wheel. (!!!)

Cheers!
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 12, 2009, 01:05:10 PM
Ok, your posts questions are just to quick for me...

The drawing pages? I see the weight paths. Nothing special. There are no "revolutionary mechanisms" which would use some other forces in a novel way.

I'm certainly not trying to "cover my bets".  If that's a questionnaire, you can count me as a "non believer" in this Abeling project.

I am just saying (for the record) that from what i saw here - so far, it's my opinion it doesn't work. It's probably just another delusion.
As simple as that. You can have all the glory at the successfull confirmation, no prob.

Not that I wouldn't like to see a working gravity wheel. (!!!)

Cheers!

Posts like this are useless. What you're presenting are not arguments but some hunches of yours which are hardly of interest to anyone because they are trivial. Probably you'd do much better to keep them to yourself. You can imagine what will become of this thread if everyone starts to fill it with his or her trivial negative premonitions and prejudices.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: spinner on April 12, 2009, 01:26:04 PM
Posts like this are useless. What you're presenting are not arguments but some hunches of yours which are hardly of interest to anyone. Probably you'd do much better to keep them to yourself. You can imagine what will become of this thread if everyone starts to fill it with his or her premonitions and prejudices.

Yes, you're right.
These are just my personal opinions. Expressed by answers to your questions addressed to me.

Now, please, read again this last post of yours, and try to understand what you're saying.
Do you see anything which could be related with your own posts/opinions, too?

Quote
...You can imagine what will become of this thread if everyone starts to fill it with his or her premonitions and prejudices.
;)
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 12, 2009, 01:33:49 PM
Yes, you're right.
These are just my personal opinions. Expressed by answers to your questions addressed to me.

Now, please, read again this last post of yours, and try to understand what you're saying.
Do you see anything which could be related with your own posts/opinions, too?
 ;)

No, the last sentence applies to you, not to me. Restrain from uttering trivial negative opinions which are hardly of anybody's interest and don't try to be too funny.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: mindsweeper on April 12, 2009, 02:01:42 PM
Please see this. Seems there's again something I'm overlooking. (see attached)

You have not set any air resistance, you can find this in the World tab, second one down. Set it to low and try again.

Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: spinner on April 12, 2009, 02:05:27 PM
No, the last sentence applies to you, not to me. Restrain from uttering trivial negative opinions which are hardly of anybody's interest and don't try to be too funny.

Don't flatter me  ;D... I know my Engrish sucks, so why would I want to sound funny?

After all, we're not talking about "pig's excrement here"...

Omnibus, I'm not interested in trying to debunk anything....

So please, forgive me!.
I can easily stop posting in this "thread of yours", if it really bothers you so much..

Cheers!
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 12, 2009, 02:06:15 PM
You have not set any air resistance, you can find this in the World tab, second one down. Set it to low and try again.



Why should air resistance make any difference? Consider the experiment is in vacuum.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: itanimuLLi on April 12, 2009, 02:41:48 PM
According the patent this is how it works ?!
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 12, 2009, 02:53:16 PM
According the patent this is how it works ?!

So, @eisenficker2000's http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7150.msg170514#msg170514 was the closest so far. In your rendition the weights (balls) are in couples, however, as was explained in Abeling's webpage. I wonder what would make this work and not @AquariuZ' or @Cherryman's?
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 12, 2009, 03:01:22 PM

My main point was - if the authority, the "commercial...."  (I don't exactly remember the official name of that Netherlands authority) would confirm that they really gave him a permission to build "weight/gravity" power plants all over the Netherland, that would be something else entirely....

I filed an official information request at the VROM site about a week ago. All RFI´s towards the dutch government are handled by an entity called "Postbus 51" or P.O. Box 51. They claim to usually respond within 48 hours. In this case I think they may have some trouble finding the information. Sjack Abeling confirmed to me over the phone they had an agreement with the Ministery of Economic affairs to build at least a prototype factory which may use the current infrastructure managed by the government. This does not sound all to alien to me.

He will not have permission to build plants all over the netherlands just yet, I must assume the trial project must be assessed before VROM gives the go ahead for a full scale production environment in the netherlands and maybe even outside.

Interesting still.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 12, 2009, 03:03:53 PM
G'day all,

For those of you that are playing around with that inner ramp idea here is probably the most interesting version. It was designed in 1835 in England by Dixon Vallance. Instead of a ramp it features a belt.

Hans von Lieven

More food for thought... Thanks for that, the more ideas the better...

In this case friction will be a major factor as up till now with the other models.

Currently looking if a weight can be launched by scissoring it betwen a barrier and its holder. Looks like it will...!
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: hansvonlieven on April 12, 2009, 03:06:44 PM
This is the same idea with a different control mechanism.Of course it doesn't work.

Hans von Lieven
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 12, 2009, 03:07:00 PM
Quote
Interesting still.

... to say the least, if indeed the Dutch government is involved in this way. I've never heard of any OU project to have reached that far.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 12, 2009, 03:12:18 PM
Patent is online now, thank you Espacenet.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=item265


 :o :o :o

All hail TINK!!!

I have read most of it and it is great to be (almost) right

Guiding rails on the side!
Dumbbells!
Guiding "kidney" on the inside

But there is more to it than we thought...

I´ll read up on this thread to see if there are volunteers to translate into English, if not I will do it TODAY

Halleluja TINK.

Tink!
Tink!
Tink!

Everybody!  8)
Title: STARTING TRANSLATION... NOW!!!!
Post by: AquariuZ on April 12, 2009, 03:18:28 PM
OK, Cherryman was kidnapped by the MIB, and no other takers yet, so off I go.

I´ll sacrifice my lunch and nap, and have to be back at the ICBM silo by 17:00 which gives me one hour and 45 minutes for the initial translation.

The text is interesting to say the least....

Pant pant
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: mondrasek on April 12, 2009, 03:20:44 PM
All

WM2D CONCERNS

#1 SIZE MATTERS!

The unit for size in WM2D is meters.  This is very important!  Some forces and movements are very dependent on the size of an object.  In our case, the critical force being effected by size is Centrifugal Force.  CF is proportional to the distance of a mass from the axle (radius) on which it is spinning.  So a mass spinning close to the axle has less CF than an equal mass spinning further out at the same RPM.  Look at the KAD10 sim.  The wheel is 320 meters across!  The CF at the rim of such a wheel even rotating only once per sec will be so much greater than the effects of gravity that gravity will hardly play a part.

Try and keep things to a scale where CF and the force due to gravity (F=ma or F=9.8m) are relative.  If you look at the post I made here http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7150.msg169128#msg169128 you can see the combined gravity and CF accelerations for 12 ft. wheel at 26 rpm (mimicking a Bessler design).  Changing the size and/or RPM would change the acceleration map.

Side note:  Size is also very important when systems involve a pendulum.  The period of a pendulum (time it takes to swing back and forth) is dependent on the length only.

#2  SIM ARE APPROXIMATIONS

And can only calculate interactions one at a time.  So there is always a small error.  The error is decreased by making the time step of each calculation smaller and smaller, but the error always exists.  So in the case of a spring loaded teetertotter (a la Omni's example.wm2d) the falling weight is calculated to move first.  Then the movement of the teetertotter, then the force of the spring due to the movement of the teetertotter, then the force on the ball on the opposite side of the teetertotter.  But wait!  That other side of the teetertotter has already moved and also now had a spring force, so the resultant force calculated to push up on the second ball is exaggerated.  And so the cycle repeats and everything gets higher.

Springs give very strange results in WM2D unless used with a dampener or with air resistance turned on (per mindsweep).

Thanks,

M.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 12, 2009, 03:35:04 PM
Someone with OCR capabilities please upload the text, if not I have to type every letter by hand!!

If you can translate PDF to Text please send or upload the text (only)

See Tink´s post, the patent is online now....
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 12, 2009, 03:41:24 PM
@AquariuZ,

Quote
OK, Cherryman was kidnapped by the MIB, and no other takers yet, so off I go.

With that kind of involvement by the government, if at all, Holland emerges as a MiB-free country so I'm expecting @Cherryman to appear any moment. By the way, thanks for taking the time to translate the patent. Shouldn't it be patented in the US and other countries as well?
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: noonespecial on April 12, 2009, 03:57:00 PM
G'day all,

For those of you that are playing around with that inner ramp idea here is probably the most interesting version. It was designed in 1835 in England by Dixon Vallance. Instead of a ramp it features a belt.

Hans von Lieven

What is driving the belt pulleys? I assume that its off of the larger wheel but I don't see it in the picture.
Title: INITIAL THOUGHTS AFTER READING THE PATENT
Post by: AquariuZ on April 12, 2009, 04:29:05 PM
So the path of the weights is almost exactly as figured out in here.
Barriers or guiders in smooth flowing curves pushing weight towards axle at six o clock and moves it into place at one o clock. All very tight

Initial reaction: cannot work due to friction

BUT

The claim is

Abeling has considerably reduced and hence overcome friction by the following

For the guides and sockets he uses an interrupted teeth like surface, like the outside of a gear or cogwheel to reduce friction. Please check Fig 6. on 6/7 to see the teeth like surface.

And guess what will further reduce friction: using GLASS as a material for the guides.

I believe this is the main "extra" he uses to make this work.

Running out of time for now, will translate as much as I can and post.

Looking forward to future analysis and replication



Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 12, 2009, 04:32:05 PM
the time to translate the patent. Shouldn't it be patented in the US and other countries as well?

If he has not done it yet, it now cannot be patented anymore because it is public?

In any case it should be public, who cares about a patent. Our best chances are to replicate asap with what we have. Or try at least. About MIB: I do not really believe in them, but I believe in the Evil of Big Corp
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: dutchy1966 on April 12, 2009, 04:33:12 PM
Hi all,

I have done some manual translation. The important things are covered in it.
All the pictures are in there aswell.
I left it in Word 2003 format so others (AquariuZ  ::) ) can work on it as well.

I think it might be a good start.

Used rapidshare cause the attachment was to large.....

http://rapidshare.com/files/220455099/abeling.doc.html



enjoy!


regards,

Dutchy

I just noticed that it can only be downloaded 10 times from rapidshare..... Can someone repost it here as pdf maybe?
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 12, 2009, 04:48:04 PM
I wonder if there aren´t even better materials to reduce friction

What about TEFLON for instance

Needs to be durable too.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: oak on April 12, 2009, 04:52:52 PM
Here's a link to a pdf version of Dutchy's translation (6.2 MB):
  http://rapidshare.com/files/220460304/abeling.pdf.html

And here's a link to the original Word version of his translation (1.6 MB):
  http://rapidshare.com/files/220469055/abeling.doc

There should be no limit to the number of downloads for either of these.

ETA:  PLEASE NOTE:  Attached directly to this post is a smaller, text-only version of the translation.  If you've already downloaded the patent, you already have the diagrams.

ETA:  SEE ALSO five posts below this one -- text copied into post.

Title: Re: INITIAL THOUGHTS AFTER READING THE PATENT
Post by: spinner on April 12, 2009, 04:56:33 PM
So the path of the weights is almost exactly as figured out in here.
Barriers or guiders in smooth flowing curves pushing weight towards axle at six o clock and moves it into place at one o clock. All very tight

Initial reaction: cannot work due to friction

BUT

The claim is

Abeling has considerably reduced and hence overcome friction by the following

For the guides and sockets he uses an interrupted teeth like surface, like the outside of a gear or cogwheel to reduce friction. Please check Fig 6. on 6/7 to see the teeth like surface.

And guess what will further reduce friction: using GLASS as a material for the guides.

I believe this is the main "extra" he uses to make this work.
...

So it was really a glass afterall ... (not the fibreglass)  ;)


You cannot make a "working gravity wheel" just by reducing the frictional losses.
I thought everybody knew that?


Looking forward to hear what other goods are hidden in this patent application text....
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: rbe on April 12, 2009, 04:58:37 PM
Someone with OCR capabilities please upload the text, if not I have to type every letter by hand!!

If you can translate PDF to Text please send or upload the text (only)

See Tink´s post, the patent is online now....

Hi Guys,

First post here, I must say I find this tread very interesting and I really hope this wheel of Sjack's is for real.

As I dont know dutch and want to read the patent of Sjack's ASAP Im glad to contibute a text version (a bit rough) for easy translation.

Cheers

Keep up the good work!
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: spinner on April 12, 2009, 05:33:39 PM
I wonder if there aren´t even better materials to reduce friction

What about TEFLON for instance

Needs to be durable too.

Yes, teflon would be one of such modern materials, much better than glass in terms of low friction.
Or simply a polished steel contact surfaces and a good grease on all of those rails, guides, joints... (which works quite nicely...)

Maybe contactless magnetic levitation?

But... What would make his wheel spinnin' ?  :o
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 12, 2009, 05:39:12 PM
Hi Guys,

First post here, I must say I find this tread very interesting and I really hope this wheel of Sjack's is for real.

As I dont know dutch and want to read the patent of Sjack's ASAP Im glad to contibute a text version (a bit rough) for easy translation.

Cheers

Keep up the good work!


Thank you
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 12, 2009, 05:43:10 PM
Here is Dutchy's text. Thanks from AquariuZ (  ::) )

 ;D

This is the essence of the dutch worded Abeling patent. The translation is my interpretation and is mainly focused on the description of the working principal.

This invention converts gravitational energy into kinetic (rotational) energy.
The principal of conversion comes from controlling the falling and lifting forces that are applied to the weights involved. By letting the weights move radially outward during their fall and force them radially inward on their way up (by means of a guiding system) a momentum is created which is available at the central axle. 

It consists of:
-   at least one carrier disc (2) rotating around a horizontal axle (6), having at least one weight (3) attached which can move mainly radially outward  in a predetermined path. It has slots in it as we know from the pictures seen in the video. The slots can be different in shape and number but figure two is a nice starting point. The central axle is fixed to the carrier disc.
-   Two stands (5) which host the guiding means for the weights. See figure 3.
Point A is the center axle. Further there is the oval shaped guide which guides the weights according to the track shown in Figure 4. The stand have bearings for the central axle(7).
-   Weights.
The weights are indeed dumbbell like, which means two (half) weights attached by a connecting rod which protrudes the carrier disc (2)
-   Extra guiding means (4). These consists of rods (15) attached to the edge of the carrier disc (2) and sitting in a ring bearing(16) on the stands. The ring can be seen  in Figure 3. This seems to be optional and is to prevent wobble of the disc.
Note: Figure 1 shows two discs working side by side which is not further mentioned. One half is the basic principle!

Each carrier disc (2) has for each weight a curved radial guiding slot (fig. 2). To promote the impact of the weights spiraling outward each guiding slot has a curve on the end. The curve being in the direction of rotation. In the example shown the slot is even totally curved.
Each weight can be shifted radially in its own curved guiding slot.
The guiding means(4) on the stands (5) consist in this example of rings (13) by which the weights are guided. These rings are also cut in the stand. These rings have a oval sort of shape. Because of the shape of the rings each weights gets propelled when it comes up to its highest point. This creates a lot of energy.
The oval shape is somewhat tilted. This way the weights are forced to start moving inward already before reaching the lowest point.
In figure 4 one can see the pathway which the weights are forced to follow. At weight posion 3_12 (figure 4)the weights starts getting warped outward again.

In figure 4 the pathway for a single way is shown. It should be clear that each weight follows this same pathway. In figures 5A to 5D the pathways of a 4 weight example is shown. Notice how the weights move towards and away from each other.

The improved version that is being tested at this moment has two carrier discs side by side and the weights in between them (see figure 7). The weights are guided by both discs. The guiding slots are shaped like hockey sticks and positioned as shown in Figure 8. The curved end of the “hockeystick” causes the weight to be briefly , but very intensely, warped outward.  Notice that the slots do NOT stretch out radially!     
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: persume on April 12, 2009, 05:52:01 PM
I was talking about the Sjack Abeling device when it comes to the bet.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: persume on April 12, 2009, 05:57:56 PM
So, we know it cannot work but, hey, why not make a buck off of it like Sterling does. We're in a really bad shape if reputable companies such as Henkel rationalizes it that way.

Hardly Omnibus, you don't see Henkle advertising the fact they might be supplying something to Abeling. It's no skin off their nose, money is money. Now if Abeling really did have something that worked, and they knew about it, they would make no hesitation in advertising the fact that they would be the supplier to this incredible piece of technology. I seriously doubt it that Henkle knows specifics about the supposed technology at all, other than they are working out a quote for supply costs.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: i_ron on April 12, 2009, 05:58:17 PM


Currently looking if a weight can be launched by scissoring it betwen a barrier and its holder. Looks like it will...!

Thank you Aquariuz for bringing this device to our attention and caring for the site.  I can have more
faith in this invention than a certain recent magnet wheel.

Yes, anyone who has ever tried to cut a round rod with a pair of scissors will have no problem with
understanding the final action that launches the weight to its final outer position. Simplicity its self!

Ron

PS: and thanks for the translation!
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: persume on April 12, 2009, 06:16:26 PM
Here's a link to a pdf version of Dutchy's translation (6.2 MB):
  http://rapidshare.com/files/220460304/abeling.pdf.html

And here's a link to the original Word version of his translation (1.6 MB):
  http://rapidshare.com/files/220469055/abeling.doc

There should be no limit to the number of downloads for either of these.

ETA:  PLEASE NOTE:  Attached directly to this post is a smaller, text-only version of the translation.  If you've already downloaded the patent, you already have the diagrams.



Thanks Oak.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Alexioco on April 12, 2009, 06:18:48 PM
Here is Dutchy's text. Thanks from AquariuZ (  ::) )

 ;D

This is the essence of the dutch worded Abeling patent. The translation is my interpretation and is mainly focused on the description of the working principal.

This invention converts gravitational energy into kinetic (rotational) energy.
The principal of conversion comes from controlling the falling and lifting forces that are applied to the weights involved. By letting the weights move radially outward during their fall and force them radially inward on their way up (by means of a guiding system) a momentum is created which is available at the central axle. 

It consists of:
-   at least one carrier disc (2) rotating around a horizontal axle (6), having at least one weight (3) attached which can move mainly radially outward  in a predetermined path. It has slots in it as we know from the pictures seen in the video. The slots can be different in shape and number but figure two is a nice starting point. The central axle is fixed to the carrier disc.
-   Two stands (5) which host the guiding means for the weights. See figure 3.
Point A is the center axle. Further there is the oval shaped guide which guides the weights according to the track shown in Figure 4. The stand have bearings for the central axle(7).
-   Weights.
The weights are indeed dumbbell like, which means two (half) weights attached by a connecting rod which protrudes the carrier disc (2)
-   Extra guiding means (4). These consists of rods (15) attached to the edge of the carrier disc (2) and sitting in a ring bearing(16) on the stands. The ring can be seen  in Figure 3. This seems to be optional and is to prevent wobble of the disc.
Note: Figure 1 shows two discs working side by side which is not further mentioned. One half is the basic principle!

Each carrier disc (2) has for each weight a curved radial guiding slot (fig. 2). To promote the impact of the weights spiraling outward each guiding slot has a curve on the end. The curve being in the direction of rotation. In the example shown the slot is even totally curved.
Each weight can be shifted radially in its own curved guiding slot.
The guiding means(4) on the stands (5) consist in this example of rings (13) by which the weights are guided. These rings are also cut in the stand. These rings have a oval sort of shape. Because of the shape of the rings each weights gets propelled when it comes up to its highest point. This creates a lot of energy.
The oval shape is somewhat tilted. This way the weights are forced to start moving inward already before reaching the lowest point.
In figure 4 one can see the pathway which the weights are forced to follow. At weight posion 3_12 (figure 4)the weights starts getting warped outward again.

In figure 4 the pathway for a single way is shown. It should be clear that each weight follows this same pathway. In figures 5A to 5D the pathways of a 4 weight example is shown. Notice how the weights move towards and away from each other.

The improved version that is being tested at this moment has two carrier discs side by side and the weights in between them (see figure 7). The weights are guided by both discs. The guiding slots are shaped like hockey sticks and positioned as shown in Figure 8. The curved end of the “hockeystick” causes the weight to be briefly , but very intensely, warped outward.  Notice that the slots do NOT stretch out radially!     


That was quite interesting, if its that easy, then thats quite amazing...
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: mrsean2k on April 12, 2009, 06:34:27 PM
Hardly Omnibus, you don't see Henkle advertising the fact they might be supplying something to Abeling. It's no skin off their nose, money is money. Now if Abeling really did have something that worked, and they knew about it, they would make no hesitation in advertising the fact that they would be the supplier to this incredible piece of technology. I seriously doubt it that Henkle knows specifics about the supposed technology at all, other than they are working out a quote for supply costs.

Hi Persume,

This is just what I was thinking following the discussion about Henkel's involvement. Henkel can be involved in the project without endorsing a particular application of the product it supplies.

If I was asked to design a database to handle a capacity at a certain rate, I'd do it and supply it to a customer. I'd certainly be "seriously involved" in the project, but if the customer decides this database is to be used to build a self-aware computing system, I'm not making any comment on whether or not the goal feasible, and I'm not exploiting the customer by taking on the commission. Who am I to say what the customer should or shouldn't spend their money on?

I can supply what's been asked of me, both with a clean conscience and with my critical faculties intact. I'd also be perfectly happy to go public about it. If my database performs according to the specification asked and the customer's satisfied, it's a ringing endorsement of my service, nothing to do with the ambitions of the customer.

This applies to *almost* every consumer / supplier relationship.

Cheers

S
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: persume on April 12, 2009, 06:34:43 PM
 AquariuZ in reply to the wrongly placed glass comment, I'd like you to show me any real life engineering situation where weights are being thrown about with enough force to power over a thousand homes, and glass is used as the powers structure.
 I'd like you to show me how there is no danger of said glass being chipped, scratched, or in the most obvious case completely destroyed, if not immediately, then over time.

As a second request I'd like you to negate an abvious fact that all of Sjacks Abelings previous patents had to do with media display ( for trade shows etc. ) and then try to tell me that Glas AanHecht doesn't specialize in producing products of a similar nature ( which it does )
"In cooperation with partner Henkel B.V. and Glaswerk Hoogezand B.V., Glas Aanhecht is producing decorative glass. For example: granite glass, Trespa glass, marmoleum glass and other materials. These materials are glued to the back of glass, with the decorative side forward. These products are marketed by sales organizations."

I also wonder if Sjack is or isn't getting coin for every click visitors make to those other sites marketed up on his site. Which might have nothing to do with the above but it is a matter of interest.

Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 12, 2009, 06:38:33 PM
Just posting as I pass..

Hope format looks ok

               5

(...)
      The invention is now explained using a number of examples, with reference
20   to the attached drawings, where corresponding parts are marked with reference numbers
   which are raised by 100 at a time and whereby:
      Fig. 1 shows a frontal view of the first type of the conversion unit according to
   the invention,
25      Fig. 2 shows a side view od the carrier of the conversion unit of fig. 1, with eight
   guiding rails for weights,
      Fig. 3 shows a side view of the guidance ring and the axle ring of the conversion
   unit of fig. 1,
30      Fig. 4 shows a schematic side view of the path which a weight follows during a
   complete rotation of the carrier,


               6

      Fig. 5A to 5D shows a schematic of a number of positions of an alternative
   implementation of the carrier which is fitted with four weights,
5      Fig. 6 shows a side view of another implementation of the carrier, which
   is fitted with a serrated surface,
      Fig.7 shows a view from behind of another implementation of the conversion
   unit of fig. 7, and
      Fig. 8 ahows a side view of one of the carriers of the conversion unit of
10   fig. 7.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: persume on April 12, 2009, 06:40:22 PM
Hi Persume,

This is just what I was thinking following the discussion about Henkel's involvement. Henkel can be involved in the project without endorsing a particular application of the product it supplies.

If I was asked to design a database to handle a capacity at a certain rate, I'd do it and supply it to a customer. I'd certainly be "seriously involved" in the project, but if the customer decides this database is to be used to build a self-aware computing system, I'm not making any comment on whether or not the goal feasible, and I'm not exploiting the customer by taking on the commission. Who am I to say what the customer should or shouldn't spend their money on?

I can supply what's been asked of me, both with a clean conscience and with my critical faculties intact. I'd also be perfectly happy to go public about it. If my database performs according to the specification asked and the customer's satisfied, it's a ringing endorsement of my service, nothing to do with the ambitions of the customer.

This applies to *almost* every consumer / supplier relationship.

Cheers

S

HI S,
Your right. I can't fathom why there are those who immediately assume the invention must be true, or the inventor is on the up and up, just because the inventor has other companies names on his site. Your points are well taken and are what I was trying to get across.
Thanks.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: mondrasek on April 12, 2009, 06:45:47 PM
Well, from what I can see, we have no "spectacular event" taking place that would add energy to spin this wheel, or to use less energy to raise the weights than is available due to the falling weights.

When you bring a weight on a spinning wheel inwards towards the axle, you must do work.  Spin around holding a weight at arm's length and try to pull it in.  It takes work.  In the case of this wheel the energy to drive the weights against the ramp guides to force it towards the axle is being supplied by the inertia of the wheel (initially gained from the falling weights).  It will also try to accelerate the wheel since the weight an the larger radius is moving faster than the weight on the smaller radius.  In order to slow down the weight as it is moved in, energy is transferred to the wheel, causing it to speed up.  This is like the ice skater who spins faster by pulling their arms and legs in close to the axis of their spin.

Now when you allow that weight to move back out further away from the axle, the weight must be accelerated.  So it will slow the wheel.  It takes the energy it needs again from the inertia of the wheel (initially gained from the falling weights).

These interactions are all well known and follow exactly the equations of conventional physics.  The Potential Energy of a weight at the top of a wheel is converted to Kinetic Energy (velocity of the weight and rotation of the wheel) while falling.  That exact amount of Kinetic Energy is required to push, pull, swing, throw, etc. that weight back to the top of the wheel.  Without losses due to friction the sum is exactly zero.  With friction it is less and you never spin one entire revolution.

The weights in this wheel are brought in towards the axle by the ramps.  Centrifugal Force will cause them to throw out towards the rim again in just the motion Abeling describes, but those actions will absorb all the kinetic energy released by the falling weight side.  If turned by a motor it will perform quite spectacularly just as described, very similar to Cherryman and AquariuZ models have done.

So either Abeling has nothing new, OR, this patent protects the device by protecting only one of it's pieces.  There could still be some other unrevealed piece that makes the magic happen.  That secret piece may only work with a wheel and weight configuration which he now has patented.

I am regretably confident that this design cannot run as presented.  But could it be part of an as yet unrevealed whole?

Modelers, remember to keep to the scale of a wheel between 1.5 and 2 meters in diameter.  And good luck!

M.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 12, 2009, 06:48:20 PM
Hi guys, im still alive!The MIB were tough but i resisted!  ;D

Had a quick look at the patent, "curved ramps"  ;D

Anyway..  here is a quick start to play with.

Timing, weight.. will be critical.



Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: mrsean2k on April 12, 2009, 06:49:21 PM
HI S,
Your right. I can't fathom why there are those who immediately assume the invention must be true, or the inventor is on the up and up, just because the inventor has other companies names on his site. Your points are well taken and are what I was trying to get across.
Thanks.

Well you got them across as far as I'm concerned :-)

At this stage it boils down to opinion in the end. Not many people can look at things without any of their personal beliefs influencing things one way or another (me included of course).

Whether or not any of it's true, it's entertaining to speculate - you learn something one way or another.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: NerzhDishual on April 12, 2009, 06:49:51 PM
Hi Figthers!

I have transformed the pdf file (Sjack Abeling patent NL1034252C1) into an .html file.

So, you are able to use Google for translating this .html file into your favorite language.
You can see some automatic translations on: http://freenrg.info/Sjack_Abeling/Patent/Html (http://freenrg.info/Sjack_Abeling/Patent/Html)

Very Best
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 12, 2009, 07:11:22 PM
(cont)


         An installation 1 for the conversion of gravitational energy, consists of two parallel
      movable carriers 2 which rotate around a joint axle line A with each having a number of weights
15      3 attached in the rotational path (fig. 1) These weights 3 are movable in a radial direction in
      relation to axle line A. The conversion unit 1 contains collaborating materials 4 to guide the radial
      displacement of weights 3. These guiding materials 4, which will be discussed in detail hereafter,
20      are incorporated in side plates 5, which are located on the sides of each carrier 2 parallel to the
      plane of the rotational movement.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 12, 2009, 07:18:04 PM
(cont)
      In the shown example both carriers 2 are fixed against rotation on the pertruding axle 6, which
25      is housed in a baring in the openings 7 in the side plates 5. This axle 6 could be attached to a
      generator, through which the output of unit 1 would be converted to e.g. electrical energy. The
      carriers 2 and the side plates 5 shown in this example are made out of glass, but other materials
30      with minimal friction like metals could be used.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: mrsean2k on April 12, 2009, 07:25:23 PM
Stuck the translation + images up as a fairly ropey Google doc, might do until the more expert versions are available:

http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=ddr3zqdb_7f7wrvpdz

Oops just checked and that's a proper mess, best ignored. Not sure what I did there.

This seems to more or less work:

http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=ddr3zqdb_14fwv39dgr
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 12, 2009, 07:27:27 PM
(cont)

         Every carrier 2 has the appearance of a disc, in which for every weight 3 a radially



                  (7)
      directed guidance track 8 is formed (fig.  2). To facilitate the outward hurling of weights 3 the
      guiding tracks at least have on their end 9 which are furthest from axle 6 a track segment which
 5      is curved. The curvature is pointed towards the rotational direction of carrier 2. In the shown
      example the guiding tracks even have a smooth curvature over their entire lenght.
      
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 12, 2009, 07:27:34 PM
Stuck the translation + images up as a fairly ropey Google doc, might do until the more expert versions are available:

http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=ddr3zqdb_7f7wrvpdz

Great work!

Can you rotate the imiges who stand sideways now?
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: mrsean2k on April 12, 2009, 07:37:48 PM
Great work!

Can you rotate the imiges who stand sideways now?

Ok, slightly better:


http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=ddr3zqdb_14fwv39dgr

Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 12, 2009, 07:42:18 PM
(cont)

         Each of the weights 3 is movable in a radial direction in an accompanying guiding
10      track 8. Towards that end the weights 3 as shown in the example are installed in pairs. Every
      weight 3 has a joining bar 10 which connects both weight parts 11 and is held by guiding track 8.
15      These joining bars 10 move in a radial direction in guiding track 8.
      
      In an alternative setup of the conversion unit the edges 212 of each guiding track 208 have a
20      serrated surface to minimize friction as the weights make their sliding motion (fig. 6). The joining
      bars 210 of the weights are ovally shaped here to ensure regulated motion over the serrated
      surface 212. It should be noted that this setup shows that the guiding tracks 208 can be
25      distributed non uniformly around axle 206.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 12, 2009, 07:54:43 PM
(cont)

In the example show the guiding materials 4 consist of two installed
      rings 13 which are installed on both sides of carrier 2, along which the weights 3 are movable.
30      These rings 13 in this example have been cut out of side plates 5. The rings 13 run in a horizontal
      direction which is eccentrically in relation to the rotational axle A of carrier 2, and have a slightly
      oval shape, whereby the long axle is aimed vertically. In fact the rings 13 have the shape of


               ( 8 )

      an indented circle. Because of the shape of the rings 13 every weight 3 when it reaches the pinnacle
      of its path around axle A, or slightly before, is accelerated strongly in a radial direction. Because of
5      this a lot of energy is released. The long axle of every ring 13 is slightly tilted in such a way that the       weights 3 are forced back inwards even before they reach the lowest point of their path.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 12, 2009, 08:17:46 PM
(cont)
         The conversion unit 1 in the example shown is furthermore fitted with secundary
10      bearing means 14, which are fitted around the circumference of carrier 2. These secundary bearing
      means 14 consist of a number of spacers 15 which run from carrier 2 to each of the side plates 5,
15      and a bearing ring 16 which houses the spacers 15.
      Each bearing ring 15 (16?) runs on the outside with a spacing around guiding ring 13 (fig. 3).
            
            The path each of the weights 3 takes during the rotation of carrier 2 around
20      the axle line A is represented in fig. 4. Assuming the position on the top right (indicated as 3°) the
      weight moves down under the influence of gravity, whereby it will attempt to move away from axial
      line A in a radial direction along its guiding path 8 while influenced by the centrifugal force.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 12, 2009, 08:35:32 PM
(cont)


25      This radial movement is restricted by guiding rings 13. When the weight almost reaches its lowest
      position 3-5 the radius of guiding ring 13 starts to diminish, which causes weight 3 on its upwards
30      motion to be forced into a radial direction towards axial line A. At around the level of axial line A
      the radius of guiding ring 13 starts to increase again, which causes weight 3 to move outwards
      again starting at position 3-12. This means in essence that weight 3 is being "hurled".
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 12, 2009, 08:43:51 PM
(cont)

               (9)

      Due to the variation of distance of the weight with respect to the axial line A, a rotational
      momentum   is generated which is translated to axle 6.
         Even though fig. 4 shows the motion of a single weight, it will be evident that
 5      all the weights follow an identical path. This is shown in fig. 5A to 5D, where a setup of the
      conversion unit 101 is shown with four weights 103a-103d and guiding tracks 108. In these
10      views is shown how weights 103(a red.)-103d move from and towards each other.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 12, 2009, 08:56:50 PM
(cont)

         In the setup of conversion unit 301 which is currently being prepared for practical
15      application tests there are placed two carriers 302 next to each other with spacing (fig. 7). Each
      weight 303 is shown to have a joining part 310 which protrudes on both sides through the guiding
      track 308 in both carriers 302 and into the rings 313 of the guiding materials 304. The guiding tracks
20      inthis example have the shape of a hockey stick; they are in essence straight and only have a curved
      segment on the radial far end 309 (fig. 8 ) Because of this shape the weights 303 are subjected to
      a short but violent hurling motion. It should be noted that the straight parts of the guiding tracks 308
      are not purely radially aligned but rather are slightly offset with regards to axial line A.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 12, 2009, 09:07:26 PM
(cont)

         Even though the invention has been explained through a number of examples it should be
30      obvious that it is not limited to these. There could be more or less carriers and weights than previously
      shown, and the carriers and weights could also have different shapes and dimensions. For example the
      carrier instead of being a disc shape with guiding tracks could also

                  (10)

      be constructed as a wheel with spokes with sliding weights.
         The extent of the invention is therefore solely determined by the following conclusions:
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 12, 2009, 09:31:55 PM
(cont)

                  (11)

Conclusions

         1. Installation for the conversion of gravitational energy into motional energy, containing:
            - at least one rotatable carrier with a horizontal axle with at least one attached
 5      weight which is mainly radially movable relative to the axle, and
            - means collaborating with the carrier to guide the radial movement of the at
      least one weight .
10         2. Conversion unit according to conclusion 1, with the feature, that the guiding
      materials are setup to move the at least one weight near the top of its path around the rotational axis
      away from the axle in an accelerated motion.
15         3. Conversion unit according to conclusion 1 or 2,with the feature, that a number
      of weights is attached to the carrier in a circumferencial way.
         4. Conversion unit according to previous conclusions,with the feature, that the
20      or any weight is radially movable on or housed in the carrier.
         5.  Conversion unit according to conclusion 4,with the feature, that the appearance
      of the carrier is a disc, on which or in which a mainly radially guiding track is formed for the
25      or any weight.
         6. Conversion unit according to conclusion 5,with the feature, that the or all guiding
      tracks at least has a curving segment in the rotational direction on the its far end away from the axle.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: hartiberlin on April 12, 2009, 09:37:53 PM
Hi guys, im still alive!The MIB were tough but i resisted!  ;D

Had a quick look at the patent, "curved ramps"  ;D

Anyway..  here is a quick start to play with.

Timing, weight.. will be critical.





Hi Cherryman,
the guiding barrier track number 13 in picture 8  is still missing in your WM2D model.

Well,. we will see, if this Abeling patent model will really work via simulations.

Many thanks for all, who helped translating the patent.

Am just back in from 2 days away and have to study all the recent postings.
Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 12, 2009, 09:48:09 PM
If you ad the rails you will get this , principle. I tested that...    Sjack has to have something else added...  ???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBygA2vOHx4&feature=channel_page

I
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 12, 2009, 09:53:55 PM
Here a version with the rails
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 12, 2009, 09:55:49 PM
(cont)


                  (12)

         7. Conversion unit according to conclusion 6,with the feature, that the or all guiding
      tracks show a hockey stick pattern.
 5         8. Conversion unit according to conclusion 6,with the feature, that the or all guiding
      tracks show a smooth flowing curvature over its entire lenght.
         9. Conversion unit according to one of conclusions 5 to 8,with the feature, that the
      or all guiding tracks have at least a partially serrated surface.
10         10. Conversion unit according to one of conclusions 5 to 9,with the feature, that the
      or all weights are divided and connected by a pertruding joining part through the guiding track in the
      disc shaped carrier.
15         11. Conversion unit according to one of conclusions 5 to 9,with the feature, that
      two disc shaped carriers with spacing are placed parallel to each other and share one or more weights
      which are installed in the spacing between, and the or all weights show a pertruding joining part on
20      both sides of the disc shaped carriers.
         
         12. Conversion unit according to one of the previous conclusions,with the feature,
25      that the guiding means consist of at least one parallel to its rotational plane covering ring placed next to
      the carrier, along which the or all weights are movable.
         13. Conversion unit according to conclusion 12,with the feature, that the guiding
30      means encompass two on both sides of the carrier placed rings.
         14. Conversion unit according to conclusion 12 or 13,with the feature, that the or
      any ring runs in an eccentrically horizontal direction with regards to the rotational axle of the carrier.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: NerzhDishual on April 12, 2009, 10:03:27 PM
Nil
Void
Nada
Niente
Rien
Que d'alle!

Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 12, 2009, 10:08:38 PM
(cont)

                  (13)

         15. Conversion unit according to one of conclusions 12 to14,with the feature, that
 5      the or any ring shows a mainly vertically aligned oval shape.
         16. Conversion unit according to one of the previous conclusions,featured by the
      installation of secundary housing materials around the circumference of the carrier.
10         17. Conversion unit according to conclusion 16,with the feature, that the secundary
      housing materials contain a number of spacers which run from the carrier towards the guiding materials
      and are housed by a ring which is placed around the guiding materials.
15         18. Conversion unit according to one of the previous conclusions,with the feature,
      that at least the carrier and/or the guiding materials are contructed out of glass.

END OF TEXT
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: mondrasek on April 12, 2009, 10:13:24 PM
Here a version with the rails

Cherryman, fine work as always.

Suggestions:

1)  Scale down your Rhino models before importing to WM2D.  Your current model wheel is 200M across.  The Centrifugal Forces at the rim for even the slowest of rotations are magnitudes of times greater than the force of gravity on each weight.  I think you want the Force due to rotation and the Force due to gravity to at least be within a factor of 10 if you expect to see the interactions of the two visually in the sim.

2)  How about a catch for the ball when it is launch back up to the outer egde of the slots?  But maybe again this is too soon.  It will add a lot of complexity to the model and require more computations and therefore errors per frame.  But if you worked with only two slots instead of all 8 it might still calculate quick enough.

Keep it up!

M.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 12, 2009, 10:16:56 PM
HERE THE COMPLETE TEXT AS OF MIDDLE OF PAGE 5

Sorry for the many posts, I did not want to wait showing all.

Not sure about all this after reading, looking forward to modelling.

               5

(...)
         The invention is now explained using a number of examples, with reference
20      to the attached drawings, where corresponding parts are marked with reference numbers
      which are raised by 100 at a time and whereby:
         Fig. 1 shows a frontal view of the first type of the conversion unit according to
      the invention,
25         Fig. 2 shows a side view od the carrier of the conversion unit of fig. 1, with eight
      guiding rails for weights,
         Fig. 3 shows a side view of the guidance ring and the axle ring of the conversion
      unit of fig. 1,
30         Fig. 4 shows a schematic side view of the path which a weight follows during a
      complete rotation of the carrier,


               6

         Fig. 5A to 5D shows a schematic of a number of positions of an alternative
      implementation of the carrier which is fitted with four weights,
5         Fig. 6 shows a side view of another implementation of the carrier, which
      is fitted with a serrated surface,
         Fig.7 shows a view from behind of another implementation of the conversion
      unit of fig. 7, and
         Fig. 8 ahows a side view of one of the carriers of the conversion unit of
10      fig. 7.

         An installation 1 for the conversion of gravitational energy, consists of two parallel
      movable carriers 2 which rotate around a joint axle line A with each having a number of weights
15      3 attached in the rotational path (fig. 1) These weights 3 are movable in a radial direction in
      relation to axle line A. The conversion unit 1 contains collaborating materials 4 to guide the radial
      displacement of weights 3. These guiding materials 4, which will be discussed in detail hereafter,
20      are incorporated in side plates 5, which are located on the sides of each carrier 2 parallel to the
      plane of the rotational movement.
      
      In the shown example both carriers 2 are fixed against rotation on the pertruding axle 6, which
25      is housed in a baring in the openings 7 in the side plates 5. This axle 6 could be attached to a
      generator, through which the output of unit 1 would be converted to e.g. electrical energy. The
      carriers 2 and the side plates 5 shown in this example are made out of glass, but other materials
30      with minimal friction like metals could be used.

         Every carrier 2 has the appearance of a disc, in which for every weight 3 a radially



                  (7)
      directed guidance track 8 is formed (fig.  2). To facilitate the outward hurling of weights 3 the
      guiding tracks at least have on their end 9 which are furthest from axle 6 a track segment which
 5      is curved. The curvature is pointed towards the rotational direction of carrier 2. In the shown
      example the guiding tracks even have a smooth curvature over their entire lenght.
      

         Each of the weights 3 is movable in a radial direction in an accompanying guiding
10      track 8. Towards that end the weights 3 as shown in the example are installed in pairs. Every
      weight 3 has a joining bar 10 which connects both weight parts 11 and is held by guiding track 8.
15      These joining bars 10 move in a radial direction in guiding track 8.
      
      In an alternative setup of the conversion unit the edges 212 of each guiding track 208 have a
20      serrated surface to minimize friction as the weights make their sliding motion (fig. 6). The joining
      bars 210 of the weights are ovally shaped here to ensure regulated motion over the serrated
      surface 212. It should be noted that this setup shows that the guiding tracks 208 can be
25      distributed non uniformly around axle 206.


         In the example show the guiding materials 4 consist of two installed
      rings 13 which are installed on both sides of carrier 2, along which the weights 3 are movable.
30      These rings 13 in this example have been cut out of side plates 5. The rings 13 run in a horizontal
      direction which is eccentrically in relation to the rotational axle A of carrier 2, and have a slightly
      oval shape, whereby the long axle is aimed vertically. In fact the rings 13 have the shape of


               ( 8 )

      an indented circle. Because of the shape of the rings 13 every weight 3 when it reaches the pinnacle
      of its path around axle A, or slightly before, is accelerated strongly in a radial direction. Because of
5      this a lot of energy is released. The long axle of every ring 13 is slightly tilted in such a way that the    

   weights 3 are forced back inwards even before they reach the lowest point of their path.

         The conversion unit 1 in the example shown is furthermore fitted with secundary
10      bearing means 14, which are fitted around the circumference of carrier 2. These secundary bearing
      means 14 consist of a number of spacers 15 which run from carrier 2 to each of the side plates 5,
15      and a bearing ring 16 which houses the spacers 15.
      Each bearing ring 15 (16?) runs on the outside with a spacing around guiding ring 13 (fig. 3).
            
            The path each of the weights 3 takes during the rotation of carrier 2 around
20      the axle line A is represented in fig. 4. Assuming the position on the top right (indicated as 3°) the
      weight moves down under the influence of gravity, whereby it will attempt to move away from axial
      line A in a radial direction along its guiding path 8 while influenced by the centrifugal force.


25      This radial movement is restricted by guiding rings 13. When the weight almost reaches its lowest
      position 3-5 the radius of guiding ring 13 starts to diminish, which causes weight 3 on its upwards
30      motion to be forced into a radial direction towards axial line A. At around the level of axial line A
      the radius of guiding ring 13 starts to increase again, which causes weight 3 to move outwards
      again starting at position 3-12. This means in essence that weight 3 is being "hurled".


               (9)

      Due to the variation of distance of the weight with respect to the axial line A, a rotational
      momentum   is generated which is translated to axle 6.
         Even though fig. 4 shows the motion of a single weight, it will be evident that
 5      all the weights follow an identical path. This is shown in fig. 5A to 5D, where a setup of the
      conversion unit 101 is shown with four weights 103a-103d and guiding tracks 108. In these
10      views is shown how weights 103(a red.)-103d move from and towards each other.

         In the setup of conversion unit 301 which is currently being prepared for practical
15      application tests there are placed two carriers 302 next to each other with spacing (fig. 7). Each
      weight 303 is shown to have a joining part 310 which protrudes on both sides through the guiding
      track 308 in both carriers 302 and into the rings 313 of the guiding materials 304. The guiding tracks
20      inthis example have the shape of a hockey stick; they are in essence straight and only have a curved
      segment on the radial far end 309 (fig. 8 ) Because of this shape the weights 303 are subjected to
      a short but violent hurling motion. It should be noted that the straight parts of the guiding tracks 308
      are not purely radially aligned but rather are slightly offset with regards to axial line A.

         Even though the invention has been explained through a number of examples it should be
30      obvious that it is not limited to these. There could be more or less carriers and weights than previously
      shown, and the carriers and weights could also have different shapes and dimensions. For example the
      carrier instead of being a disc shape with guiding tracks could also

                  (10)

      be constructed as a wheel with spokes with sliding weights.
         The extent of the invention is therefor solely determined by the following conclusions:
   


                  (11)

Conclusions

         1. Installation for the conversion of gravitational energy into motional energy, containing:
            - at least one rotatable carrier with a horizontal axle with at least one attached
 5      weight which is mainly radially movable relative to the axle, and
            - means collaborating with the carrier to guide the radial movement of the at
      least one weight .
10         2. Conversion unit according to conclusion 1, with the feature, that the guiding
      materials are setup to move the at least one weight near the top of its path around the rotational axis
      away from the axle in an accelerated motion.
15         3. Conversion unit according to conclusion 1 or 2,with the feature, that a number
      of weights is attached to the carrier in a circumferencial way.
         4. Conversion unit according to previous conclusions,with the feature, that the
20      or any weight is radially movable on or housed in the carrier.
         5.  Conversion unit according to conclusion 4,with the feature, that the appearance
      of the carrier is a disc, on which or in which a mainly radially guiding track is formed for the
25      or any weight.
         6. Conversion unit according to conclusion 5,with the feature, that the or all guiding
      tracks at least has a curving segment in the rotational direction on the its far end away from the axle.


                  (12)

         7. Conversion unit according to conclusion 6,with the feature, that the or all guiding
      tracks show a hockey stick pattern.
 5         8. Conversion unit according to conclusion 6,with the feature, that the or all guiding
      tracks show a smooth flowing curvature over its entire lenght.
         9. Conversion unit according to one of conclusions 5 to 8,with the feature, that the
      or all guiding tracks have at least a partially serrated surface.
10         10. Conversion unit according to one of conclusions 5 to 9,with the feature, that the
      or all weights are divided and connected by a pertruding joining part through the guiding track in the
      disc shaped carrier.
15         11. Conversion unit according to one of conclusions 5 to 9,with the feature, that
      two disc shaped carriers with spacing are placed parallel to each other and share one or more weights
      which are installed in the spacing between, and the or all weights show a pertruding joining part on
20      both sides of the disc shaped carriers.
         
         12. Conversion unit according to one of the previous conclusions,with the feature,
25      that the guiding means consist of at least one parallel to its rotational plane covering ring placed next to
      the carrier, along which the or all weights are movable.
         13. Conversion unit according to conclusion 12,with the feature, that the guiding
30      means encompass two on both sides of the carrier placed rings.
         14. Conversion unit according to conclusion 12 or 13,with the feature, that the or
      any ring runs in an eccentrically horizontal direction with regards to the rotational axle of the carrier.

                  (13)

         15. Conversion unit according to one of conclusions 12 to14,with the feature, that
 5      the or any ring shows a mainly vertically aligned oval shape.
         16. Conversion unit according to one of the previous conclusions,featured by the
      installation of secundary housing materials around the circumference of the carrier.
10         17. Conversion unit according to conclusion 16,with the feature, that the secundary
      housing materials contain a number of spacers which run from the carrier towards the guiding materials
      and are housed by a ring which is placed around the guiding materials.
15         18. Conversion unit according to one of the previous conclusions,with the feature,
      that at least the carrier and/or the guiding materials are contructed out of glass.


The first 4.5 pages I'll do later, they are not that relevant.

Now back to the regular scheduled program, have a lot of catching up to do

Hi Cherryman, good to see you back

Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 12, 2009, 10:18:54 PM
Hi Aquariuz, i had to search some easter eggs  ;D

Anyway, good work on the translation!

Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 12, 2009, 10:20:51 PM
Cherryman, fine work as always.

Suggestions:

1)  Scale down your Rhino models before importing to WM2D.  Your current model wheel is 200M across.  The Centrifugal Forces at the rim for even the slowest of rotations are magnitudes of times greater than the force of gravity on each weight.  I think you want the Force due to rotation and the Force due to gravity to at least be within a factor of 10 if you expect to see the interactions of the two visually in the sim.

2)  How about a catch for the ball when it is launch back up to the outer egde of the slots?  But maybe again this is too soon.  It will add a lot of complexity to the model and require more computations and therefore errors per frame.  But if you worked with only two slots instead of all 8 it might still calculate quick enough.

Keep it up!

M.

I Will look into that scaling down, i was under the impression it was in .cm  ::)

When you ad cathers to the design then you get something like my early prototypes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSaKQEn0Wwc&feature=channel_page

So there has to be something else...
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 12, 2009, 10:33:55 PM
This simply cannot work as presented...

I'll try anyway using glass

Darned

IS HE HIDING SOMETHING?

This looks like half a patent
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 12, 2009, 10:36:30 PM
This simply cannot work as presented...

I'll try anyway using glass

Darned

IS HE HIDING SOMETHING?

This looks like half a patent

Must be.. 

Does he has a working prototype? It could also be that he believes in the principle, convinced a few companies and is allowed to TRY building it...  So Without calling him a lier, just wondering if there is any mention of a working protype.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 12, 2009, 10:44:04 PM
Cherryman, fine work as always.

Suggestions:

1)  Scale down your Rhino models before importing to WM2D.  Your current model wheel is 200M across.  The Centrifugal Forces at the rim for even the slowest of rotations are magnitudes of times 

There is an issue with Wm2d that when you scale too small contraints break so much easier, this has to do with accuracy settings. It stops being fun when you get hit by integrator errors all the time.

I would try large scale first and then scale down to actual size, but that's just me
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 12, 2009, 10:48:07 PM
Must be.. 

Does he has a working prototype? It could also be that he believes in the principle, convinced a few companies and is allowed to TRY building it...  So Without calling him a lier, just wondering if there is any mention of a working protype.

There are two mentions. One in the video

"The real prototype is somewere else. The location is kept secret"

Two in the patent page nine section 10/15:

            In the setup of conversion unit 301 which is currently being prepared for practical
      application tests there are placed two carriers 302 next to each other with spacing (fig. 7).

I am starting to have doubts now too, sorry to say.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AB Hammer on April 12, 2009, 10:50:46 PM
Greetings All

 After seeing the patent and the drawings. I have but one question. With all this, why is there not some form of video proof to go with it? If it is a done deal it is a done deal. Wright? ::)
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 12, 2009, 10:56:35 PM
Greetings All

 After seeing the patent and the drawings. I have but one question. With all this, why is there not some form of video proof to go with it? If it is a done deal it is a done deal. Wright? ::)

I think he thought he really "had" it in 2007 but made some form of measuring mistake.

Either that or the patent is incomplete and he really has found it.

Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Grimer on April 12, 2009, 10:56:42 PM
Those teeth in figure 6 must engage with the weight like a rack to give them rotation,

This is classic Carnot. The rotating weights are analogous to temperature motion of the atoms, The weights on the downside are analogous the the pressure motion. The rising section is the adiabatic exchange equivalent and the descending section is the isothermal equivalent. The driving force is the gravitational potential drop between top and bottom.

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q171/frank260332/rotation.jpg

Above is the rotating power cycle. Think of it as a two stroke and traditional Carnot as a 4 stroke engine,
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 12, 2009, 10:58:44 PM
Those teeth in figure 6 must engage with the weight like a rack to give them rotation,

True, but remember it is not the weights that touch that jagged edge, it is an oval shaped joining bar (in this case)
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 12, 2009, 11:01:00 PM
Those teeth in figure 6 must engage with the weight like a rack to give them rotation,

This is classic Carnot. The rotating weights are analogous to temperature motion of the atoms, The weights on the downside are analogous the the pressure motion. The rising section is the adiabatic exchange equivalent and the descending section is the isothermal equivalent. The driving force is the gravitational potential drop between top and bottom.

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q171/frank260332/rotation.jpg

Above is the rotating power cycle. Think of it as a two stroke and traditional Carnot as a 4 stroke engine,

I read you're posts with much intrest, but understanding is not always easy.

What does the above tells about the design.. can you somehow translate it in things i can use in a drwaing?
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Grimer on April 12, 2009, 11:25:51 PM
I read you're posts with much intrest, but understanding is not always easy.

What does the above tells about the design.. can you somehow translate it in things i can use in a drwaing?

I'll do my best. ;D

Mmmm ....Well you need teeth on the axle cos this is going to give it the highest spin; These teeth engage in the rack, the toothed curve thingees. The axle needs to be as small a diameter as possible where it engages with the rack to give maximum spin. I suppose ideally it would be a conical cog engaging in a slanted rack - a bit like the DAF infinitely variable gear box - cos one has to build up rotational speed.

What happens to the rotating weight when it slams into the going down bit I wouldn't like to say,  :o
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 12, 2009, 11:31:55 PM
I'll do my best. ;D

Mmmm ....Well you need teeth on the axle cos this is going to give it the highest spin; These teeth engage in the rack, the toothed curve thingees. The axle needs to be as small a diameter as possible where it engages with the rack to give maximum spin. I suppose ideally it would be a conical cog engaging in a slanted rack - a bit like the DAF infinitely variable gear box - cos one has to build up rotational speed.

What happens to the rotating weight when it slams into the going down bit I wouldn't like to say,  :o

When you with calculation state something, isn't then possible to export that into a curve as a DXF file?  If that is possible then we have the perfect angles..

Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Grimer on April 12, 2009, 11:34:52 PM
True, but remember it is not the weights that touch that jagged edge, it is an oval shaped joining bar (in this case)

Yeah. I've just realised that as you can see from my last post. The bar has a smaller diameter than the weights and so you get more bangs (rotations) for the buck as the assembly progresses along the rack track,

I didn't know it was oval shaped. Presumably that's like a two toothed cog and must have some mechanical advantage or other.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Grimer on April 12, 2009, 11:46:34 PM
When you with calculation state something, isn't then possible to export that into a curve as a DXF file?  If that is possible then we have the perfect angles..


Sorry - I don't do calculation - I've been spoilt in my career and always has someone else for that.
A bit like being a king in the past who didn't need to read and right cos he always had scribes to do that for him.  8)

And I've no idea what a DXF file is ( I know what a bastard file is though  ;) )
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Grimer on April 12, 2009, 11:59:32 PM

I am starting to have doubts now too, sorry to say.

I'm not. Now that I can see the high rotation of the weights is modelling the temperature rotation of atoms I'm confident he has a jumbo sized heat engine. with the weights and the working fluid and gravity as the energy source.

I wonder how Bessler got his rotation. The weights were cylindrical which figures. He let people handle them but wrapped in a cloth. Maybe he wanted to hide the hole for an axle.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Grimer on April 13, 2009, 12:25:08 AM
I'll do my best. ;D
....

What happens to the rotating weight when it slams into the going down bit I wouldn't like to say,  :o

I suppose that's the pressure on the piston bit.

And now for beddy byes - till I need to get up for a pee.  :-[
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 13, 2009, 12:32:01 AM
FWIW

Initial "Egg" shape try attached.

Need to reshape legs so they do not point to axle.

And no acceleration, not even in a vacuum & friction less environment....
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: eisenficker2000 on April 13, 2009, 12:35:18 AM
After reading the patent; hockeysticks  and ellipse..
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 13, 2009, 12:36:53 AM
Here a version with the rails

Ah! I can use that!

Thanks Cherryman
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 13, 2009, 12:38:03 AM
After reading the patent; hockeysticks  and ellipse..

Cool, but don´t they bend the other way in the length???
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 13, 2009, 12:39:52 AM
After reading the patent; hockeysticks  and ellipse..

I like it! Got a file?
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: broli on April 13, 2009, 12:44:31 AM
After reading the patent; hockeysticks  and ellipse..

Yes very cool indeed, spares a lot of time in reading boring text.

Someone should get the feedback of Abeling on that animation  ;D.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: eisenficker2000 on April 13, 2009, 12:51:37 AM
@AquiriuZ: Take picture 8 from the patent and bend back the ends near the axle, so the angle pushing the weight up has a smaller vector in the horizontal plane

@Cherryman: If you could use dxf/Autocad format?


Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 13, 2009, 12:59:05 AM
@AquiriuZ: Take picture 8 from the patent and bend back the ends near the axle, so the angle pushing the weight up has a smaller vector in the horizontal plane

@Cherryman: If you could use dxf/Autocad format?




Perfect! Send it up

Did you test it WM2D or something? 
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 13, 2009, 01:09:22 AM
Using Cherrymans wheel I can visualize the violent launch of the weights near 12 o clock position.

Now, if you can keep the weight in its socket you may have something.

There are small bursts of acceleration, but again the ball needs to be kept locked into place to get full benefit from the launch. The launch is a scissors effect.

Model attached with an initial momentum of -0.200 rad/s but WITHOUT MOTOR.

Turns for a while (friction less environ)

I´ll see if I can lock those balls
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: eisenficker2000 on April 13, 2009, 01:11:07 AM
@Cherryman: in DXF..zipped :-\
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: LarryC on April 13, 2009, 01:14:32 AM
After reading the patent; hockeysticks  and ellipse..

I'm glad you're showing the upper left quadrant closer to the video. The guides need to allow the weights to be freely thrown outward, varying due to centrifugal force based on rpm. The centrifugal slam at the outside edge of the hockeysticks is where the acceleration is coming from.

Regards, Larry
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 13, 2009, 01:20:36 AM
@Cherryman: in DXF..zipped :-\

TNx I will play with it!
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 13, 2009, 01:21:53 AM
Using Cherrymans wheel I can visualize the violent launch of the weights near 12 o clock position.

Now, if you can keep the weight in its socket you may have something.

There are small bursts of acceleration, but again the ball needs to be kept locked into place to get full benefit from the launch. The launch is a scissors effect.

Model attached with an initial momentum of -0.200 rad/s but WITHOUT MOTOR.

Turns for a while (friction less environ)

I´ll see if I can lock those balls

Locking is important. Good luck!
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 13, 2009, 01:37:14 AM
Locking is important. Good luck!

It seems to work, no loss for now... Must be doing something wrong
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: oak on April 13, 2009, 01:40:26 AM
@AquiriuZ: Take picture 8 from the patent and bend back the ends near the axle, so the angle pushing the weight up has a smaller vector in the horizontal plane

Very nice animation, eisenficker.  I have to say I agree with AquiriuZ about the overall curve of the spokes.  (I am not talking about the very end part -- you might have that right.)  Look at patent diagrams 2, 4 & 5.  I imagine a spoke scooping up a weight and then hurling it, similar to a lacrosse stick hurling a ball.  The curve in the direction of travel adds speed to the weight.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 13, 2009, 01:44:06 AM
It seems to work, no loss for now... Must be doing something wrong

The old rule of the good engineer. LOL

You are doing great. And, thanks for the translation. @Cherryman and @eisenficker2000 (who found the correct design first) are fantastic too. Keep up the good work guys. Looking forward to @Cherryman's wm2d file of @eisenficker2000 dxf's.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 13, 2009, 02:11:58 AM
@mondrasek,

Quote
When you bring a weight on a spinning wheel inwards towards the axle, you must do work.  Spin around holding a weight at arm's length and try to pull it in.  It takes work.

Don’t forget we’re interested here only in the energy possessed by the ball (there’s no external energy anyway).

Imagine a ball lifted to point B at an elevation h with respect to the initial point A. It can get back at its initial height A by just letting it go and allowing it to drop vertically. However, if there’s a construction (constraint) which would make the ball slide sideways to the initial elevation A it would have lost the same gravitational potential energy mgh but in addition there would also be a displacement sideways which wasn’t there when there was no construction. Thus only the presence of a proper construction makes the ball lose the same energy mgh but in a different way, demonstrating a spectacular displacement sideways.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 13, 2009, 02:29:27 AM
Here a quick one. I Used the original curves.

Have a problem with the left block, but do nat have any time anymore. Maybe someone can fixe the block

Good luck.

Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: noonespecial on April 13, 2009, 02:43:38 AM
I agree with LarryC's assessment with regard to the centrifigal force component. Also, the upper cam is not really required once the wheel reaches critical speed but is only there to lift the weights prior to reaching that speed.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: i_ron on April 13, 2009, 03:13:10 AM
I agree with LarryC's assessment with regard to the centrifigal force component. Also, the upper cam is not really required once the wheel reaches critical speed but is only there to lift the weights prior to reaching that speed.

To the contrary, you and Larry seem to have missed a key function here, the top part of the upper ramp
in combination with the shape of the slot act to propel the weight out into its working position. Think of a pair of scissors....

"If the system would fail to catch the propelled weight, the weight would be ejected from the system with force"

Ron.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: noonespecial on April 13, 2009, 04:34:25 AM
Hi Ron,

[edit]
Q: Where does the extra energy come from?
A: The weights are applied two by two: one weight is pushing/falling, the other one has to be lifted. Due to the invention of the dual lifting system, the falling/pushing weight will hardly be hindered by the weight that has to be lifted.
In the top left of the system the weight is accelerated (like with shot put). The weight is moving faster than the system, and as the system catches the weight it is propelled forward. The path of the weights in the system is determined up front so the weights are always in a fixed position relative to each other and that will reduce the drag of the lifted weight on the falling/pushing weight. The system will start rotating from any position. Extra force is generated in the lower left of the system and on top it is transferred to the system itself, generating the extra energy. If the system would fail to catch the propelled weight, the weight would be ejected from the system with force.

Nothing in here about a 'scissor' action. In fact, if there were a scissor action it would seem the additional friction would simply slow the wheel down. Instead, the propelled weight is 'moving faster than the system' (once a critical speed is reached) through the effect of centrifigal force.
[/edit]

Charlie
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Grimer on April 13, 2009, 05:09:38 AM
To the contrary, you and Larry seem to have missed a key function here, the top part of the upper ramp
in combination with the shape of the slot act to propel the weight out into its working position. Think of a pair of scissors....

"If the system would fail to catch the propelled weight, the weight would be ejected from the system with force"

Ron.


It seems that the end of the hockey stick is where rotational energy (temperature) is converted into linear energy (pressure) like in cricket when a spinning ball hits the ground and you get a "shooter".

That would fit with the Carnot Cycle and

"If the system would fail to catch the propelled weight, the weight would be ejected from the system with force"

It may not be cricket but we have a spin bowler.  ;)

"The Dutch cricket team is a national cricket team representing the Netherlands. It is administered by the Koninklijke Nederlandse Cricket Bond (Royal Dutch Cricket Association) which is based in Nieuwegein in the centre of the country and is older than many renowned cricket clubs in the West Indies, Australia, and New Zealand.

Cricket has been played in the Netherlands since at least the 19th century, and in the 1860s was considered a major sport in the country. Many other sports (notably football) have long since surpassed cricket in popularity amongst the Dutch, and today there are around 6,000 cricketers in the Netherlands, making it the 25th most popular sport. The first national association, the forerunner of today's Royal Dutch Cricket Association, was formed in 1883 and the Netherlands achieved Associate Membership of the ICC in 1966."

Maybe Sjack is a bowler.  ;D

Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 13, 2009, 05:10:09 AM
Good news and bad news *sigh*

It does seem to work - thats good

The "egg" and any other curves MUST be smooth as silk so the acceleration is constant and without interruptions.

So, there I had a model that actually started to turn from standstill and another with test crowns to hold the weights. And a beautiful egg.

I started swapping frame by frame and:

WM.exe has encountered a problem and needs to close

 >:( I knew of this problem when you click too fast between frames, has to do with memory paging.
I will finish this tomorrow, but for now a previous save because you guessed it: I did not save my progress.
So my last save has uncalibrated paths (smoothing) and the egg needs to move slightly to the right.
O, and only the first stopper
Model attached, good night all


Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AB Hammer on April 13, 2009, 05:23:04 AM
Greetings All

 I still don't see how it is going to work. There has to be a different effect to do this. Back when I started designing I saw the design of Dixon Vallance 1835. I see the same problem with the Sjack Abeling. My 23rd design addressed these type of problems I call it the projector wheel due to the resemblance. It requires traction tracks like some form of rubber to help the reaction, and when the balls get to the end close to the axle they keep spinning on bearings to reducing the friction then at the correct angle it grabs the rim and goes up with the belt to the top. The pulley wheels are driven from the axle in a reverse spin. At least this is the design. I believe it should answer some of your questions on the problems you will face with the Sjack Abeling wheel.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 13, 2009, 05:36:40 AM
Reinstalled the crown stoppers couldn´t help myself.

Model without motor and speed and completely inert.

...or is it???

Hint: calibrate the egg and see what I saw.

Must sleep now birds starting to sing dammit

Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Grimer on April 13, 2009, 06:14:25 AM
The material of the weights should be concentrated on the perimeter like on a flywheel

The closer the material is towards the centre the more it is going to behave in the conventional manner of static material being lifted against gravity.

The key is in the fact that the accelerations the material is subjected to are much greater than the acceleration due to gravity. Gravity acceleration is piddling by comparison. Consequently one half of the weight is outrunning gravity and creating it's own wind which is opposite to the gravitational wind.

In effect the weights are sailing directly up into the gravitational wind.

Sailing directly into the wind is impossible, surely?

No it isn't. There was a long thread on the Steorn forum on the subject. I will have to try and dig out one of the videos which showed a propeller land model "sailing" directly into the wind.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Grimer on April 13, 2009, 06:56:51 AM
Found it. The device is called the Ventomobil

Project: Ventomobil
"Use the wind to drive against the wind", that's the formula of the InVentus Team. The young design engineers are two of the first researchers developing a mechanically powered wind racer for the Aeolus Race in Den Helder - and we support them in turning their vision into reality.

And there's heaps of YouTube videos illustrating it.
Example
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGxnAWVGcNA

Interestingly enough a lot of them seem to be in the Netherlands. Maybe Sjack Abeling has one, eh!

So the fast rotating flywheels are sailing up the gravitational wind and just as the Ventomobil gets its traction from friction with the ground, the flywheels get it from their axles gripping on the toothed track.

It reminds one of that toy one played with as a kid. A cotton bobbin with a thread wound round the small inner diameter. Pull on it and instead of the reel moving towards you, counter intuitively it moves away.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: fletcher on April 13, 2009, 07:48:38 AM
AquariuZ .. try zeroing out the velocities of all the components in the WM egg sims [>properties] - it seems that you might be carrying forward residual velocities [particularly of the roller balls] giving the wheel assembly momentum when it shouldn't have any from a standing start which could be the source of the torque you are finding - just a suggestion !
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Grimer on April 13, 2009, 08:07:32 AM
Found it. The device is called the Ventomobil

Project: Ventomobil
"Use the wind to drive against the wind", that's the formula of the InVentus Team. The young design engineers are two of the first researchers developing a mechanically powered wind racer for the Aeolus Race in Den Helder - and we support them in turning their vision into reality.

And there's heaps of YouTube videos illustrating it.
Example
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGxnAWVGcNA

Interestingly enough a lot of them seem to be in the Netherlands. Maybe Sjack Abeling has one, eh!

So the fast rotating flywheels are sailing up the gravitational wind and just as the Ventomobil gets its traction from friction with the ground, the flywheels get it from their axles gripping on the toothed track.

It reminds one of that toy one played with as a kid. A cotton bobbin with a thread wound round the small inner diameter. Pull on it and instead of the reel moving towards you, counter intuitively it moves away.

It seems to me that the mechanical advantage between the flywheel weight and the flywheel axle is an essential feature of the Abeling Gravity Wheel. Any mathematical analysis or simulation will have to build that mechanical advantage in.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 13, 2009, 08:19:42 AM
@All,

Does anyone know how to fix the left barrier in @Cherryman's EF2000.wm2d? Seems it's been imported from a dxf file and there are crossing lines at some corners which prevents it to be considered by the program as a polygon which can experience collisions. Is there a way to fix this within WM2D or it has to be done first in AutoCAD?

OK, this can be fixed by using the polygon tool. Move the left block somewhere away from the main construction and start clicking with the polygon tool around the existing contour until you end where you began. In the process you'll see the cursor changing into an X if it's hovering properly over the contour. Of course, special care should be taken to run over the curved part. Once the loop is closed (no pun intended) the polygon appears in color and now the program treats it as a colliding object. Move it back to its proper place on the main drawing and you're done.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Grimer on April 13, 2009, 09:56:04 AM
The rim or the flywheel weight is acting as a vertical axis Ventomobil not the more common horizontal axis  propeller type Ventomobil.    I've seen a video of a vertical axis Ventomobil   in action but I can't find it again. Still, I'm sure members get the idea and realise that if a horizontal axis Ventomobil can drive into the wind, so can a vertical axis Ventomobil.

Of course, because the gravitational wind is blowing vertically downwards a Vertical axis Ventomobil translates into a horizontal axis Gravimobil. ;D

By combining the acceleration due to the gravitational wind downwards on one side and the gravitational wind upwards on the side where the rim acceleration >> gravitational acceleration so that the rim is creating its own negative gravitational wind, it should be possible to calculate the resultant acceleration vector and hence the driving torque on the flywheel. Presumably someone has done these calculations for the Ventomobils.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 13, 2009, 10:02:12 AM
I Fixed the file

Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 13, 2009, 10:16:05 AM
I Fixed the file



Thanks. Seems perfectly balanced, though.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Grimer on April 13, 2009, 10:43:57 AM
If a vertical axis Ventomobil can sail directly into the wind than it can go round a circular track and generate continuous rotary energy. Going downwind or across the wind is no problem. The trick is knowing how to drive into the wind - and that is the trick that Sjack has discovered with his Abeling Gravimobil.

Whose going to be the first to recognise this is indeed the solution?  8)

And who's going to be the first to call me a raving lunatic?  :o

Unfortunately we don't seem to have Nova, BigOil and Joshs on the forum so I've had to copy my posts to the Steorn Forum to get my fix of insults. ;D
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 13, 2009, 10:47:45 AM
If a vertical axis Ventomobil can sail directly into the wind than it can go round a circular track and generate continuous rotary energy. Going downwind or across the wind is no problem. The trick is knowing how to drive into the wind - and that is the trick that Sjack has discovered with his Abeling Gravimobil.

Whose going to be the first to recognise this is indeed the solution?  8)

And who's going to be the first to call me a raving lunatic?  :o

Unfortunately we don't seem to have Nova, BigOil and Joshs on the forum so I've had to copy my posts to the Steorn Forum to get my fix of insults. ;D

Hahah i like the theory, good luck with getting beat up  ;D
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 13, 2009, 10:50:06 AM
@Cherryman,

We never fixed your KAD9 without motor. I'm zeroing out all initial velocities but when running it it restores them for some reason and turns the rotor counterclockwise. {see attached}
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 13, 2009, 11:06:40 AM
Fixed that

Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 13, 2009, 11:09:15 AM
Zeroing out the velocities of the disc which has the profiled polygon attached to seems to fix the problem of counterclockwise rotation and restoring of the non zero velocities upon reset.

Thanks. Postings crossed
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 13, 2009, 11:14:33 AM
Zeroing out the velocities of the disc which has the profiled polygon attached to seems to fix the problem of counterclockwise rotation and restoring of the non zero velocities upon reset.

I'm new to this WM2D programm..  Indeed sometimes objects seem to have volicity at the start, although i reset them..  Where can i fixe that?
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Grimer on April 13, 2009, 11:19:30 AM
Hahah i like the theory, good luck with getting beat up  ;D

Thank you Cherryman.   :-*

If you attempt the analysis don't worry if accelerations point in the wrong direction. Different hierarchies interact at near right angles. I say near cos if they acted at exact right angles like one was taught then they wouldn't interact at all.

So it's a case of never mind the width, feel the quality.  8)
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 13, 2009, 11:21:01 AM
I'm new to this WM2D programm..  Indeed sometimes objects seem to have volicity at the start, although i reset them..  Where can i fixe that?

Like I said, if you zero out the velocities of both the disc and the profiled polygon affixed to the disc the problem seems solved -- after reset these velocities are zero.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 13, 2009, 11:36:54 AM
Like I said, if you zero out the velocities of both the disc and the profiled polygon affixed to the disc the problem seems solved -- after reset these velocities are zero.

I understand the theory, but WHERE do i zero out them?

Those Vx Vy and V0  numbers? Of the object properties?
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 13, 2009, 11:38:09 AM
Meanwhile check out this one:

Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 13, 2009, 11:42:25 AM
I change them in Properties for both elements. Seems to work.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 13, 2009, 11:50:31 AM
Don't forget to zero out the velocities of the spheres as well. Very annoying.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Grimer on April 13, 2009, 12:09:41 PM

It's quite amusing now that we know one can construct a PMM (perpetual motion machine)  to read articles like this one .....

http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/museum/overbal.htm

 .....  which tell you why you can't.  ::)
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 13, 2009, 12:48:04 PM
@Cherryman,

We should try to be as close to the patent as possible. So far @AquariuZ' seems to be the closest (see attached).  Seems the grooves have to be slimmer when compared to those in the patent. Also, the form of the guide (the barrier) is slightly different at the ends (no counter guide (barrier) to form that egg oval appears to exist in the patent). Wonder if we could make one model exactly as shown in Fig.2 of the patent?
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 13, 2009, 12:57:48 PM
By the way, how do you scale down the dimensions. @mondrasek was quite right, we have to take care of the dimensions of the rotor.Is @AquariuZ' rotor 200m indeed or I'm reading it wrong?
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: mondrasek on April 13, 2009, 02:15:02 PM
There is an issue with Wm2d that when you scale too small constraints break so much easier, this has to do with accuracy settings. It stops being fun when you get hit by integrator errors all the time.

I would try large scale first and then scale down to actual size, but that's just me

In the accuracy setting change the Integration Error size from the default of .001 to .0001 or .00001 (or lower if you have to).  The sim runs slower, but also much more accurate.  You definitely need the Integration Error size lower than the smallest interference you can handle.  When the sim calculates the move of an object it will allow it to enter other objects it is supposed to collide with a small amount (smaller than the Integration Error size I think).  If that interference object then also moves and increases the overlap of the two objects, that is when the sim pukes.

I don't know how much more I can stress that you need to be modeling at the proper scale!  Think of it this way:  When you scale down a wheel, the Centrifugal Forces also scale down.  But Gravity does not scale down!  So you cannot scale a Gravity Wheel design that uses CF and expect the same performance at all.  Designing in anything but the proper scale is mostly a wasted effort.

Keep in mind that I also draw my CAD models with a wheel around 1000 units in radius, since working within this range of numbers is easier for me.  But I scale the entire thing by .001 before importing to WM2D.  Then the wheel is only 2 meters in diameter.  It's that easy.

M.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 13, 2009, 02:55:40 PM
Morning, Afternoon, Evening all

I slept through my alarm  >:( 14:23 local

Abeling patent papers everywhere * Nightmares about OU bunnies  * Wife wants a divorce

What a mess

@Cherryman to reset velocities or change properties for a group of objects select those objects with left mouse and ctrl for multiples. Then double click on any selected to get a mixed materials property window. Enter zero in the last three velocity fields to reset Vx Vy and Vo (axials and rotational) or if you want to change the materials just do so and all objects will be under same material.

It is a pity that there is no glass material in wm2d but there is ice.

@m: you are right ofcourse, but the scaling down, with a correct integrator error is not something my system can handle, and it slows down to around one frame per minute, even with frame skipping. So... Even though your argument makes perfect sense, I use the large scales to determine the optimal paths and polygon smoothing, and will then throw it in here at the correct scale for you all verify.

@Omnibus: If you cannot select an object because it is blocked from view or overlap just select any object and go to the first field in the properties window which contains a multiple selector field. Look for the object there in the list and select it. Then use Object -> move to front to make it visible. Alternatively move the blocking objects to the back with the same function. Stationary objects should be anchored, not pinned.
The less polygons the better so combine when you can.

I think I will start all over again because I want a wheel as in FIG 8 (maybe 10 meters diameter because M is right) Going to look what Cherryman has been up to..
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 13, 2009, 03:04:03 PM
By the way, how do you scale down the dimensions. @mondrasek was quite right, we have to take care of the dimensions of the rotor.Is @AquariuZ' rotor 200m indeed or I'm reading it wrong?

You are right. I stole the wheel from Cherryman and I really like it. But I will start again and make it a little smaller. I wish I had a desktop CRAY system. (Running Linux ofcourse ;D )
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 13, 2009, 03:07:39 PM
Keep in mind that I also draw my CAD models with a wheel around 1000 units in radius, since working within this range of numbers is easier for me.  But I scale the entire thing by .001 before importing to WM2D.  Then the wheel is only 2 meters in diameter.  It's that easy.

M.

I believe I have AutoCad lying around somewhere. Would it be worthwile to design in AutoCad and then import DXF? Or is it too much hassle (not an autoCAD user)
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 13, 2009, 03:12:32 PM
I Fixed the file



Now that´s an egg. Great thanks!
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: mondrasek on April 13, 2009, 03:58:48 PM
I believe I have AutoCad lying around somewhere. Would it be worthwile to design in AutoCad and then import DXF? Or is it too much hassle (not an autoCAD user)

Well, there is definitely a learning curve.  I'd say it would be good to learn for the long run, but doubt you'd enjoy the frustration for this current project.  Alternatively, Cherryman can continue generating models for all in Rhino.  I only used that ages ago for file format translation, and am not sure about the learning curve.  It is not free but had a free 30 day evaluation at that time.

Anyone know of a free 2D CAD or drawing package that is:

1)  Simple to learn
2)  Can accurately draw all the basic 2D geometric shapes and elements
3)  Has basic editing tools like cut, extend, trim, move, copy, mirror, array, offset, scale, etc.
4)  Can export as DXF

?

Or any simple CAD or drawing package that offers a free trial period with the same features?

The inability to accurately size and place objects in WM2D frustrated the hell out of me at first.  But using CAD also has it's issues.  Sometimes it is easier to rotate objects in WM2D when they are already tied together with constraints.  But if you export out of WM2D in dxf and then reopen in CAD you lose accuracy.  So EVERY change you want to keep in WM2D needs to be done in CAD first and then imported. Or else you begin to degrade in accuracy along the way.

I'd also still recommend bumping up the Integration Error in your sims as far as you can stand.  At least when you are zeroing in on a final design and not just doing gross testing.  Better to let it take a few minutes to generate accurate frames than to show quick inaccurate ones that may lead you to think you have a desired effect that does not exist.  But, of course, down and dirty is fine for initial testing.  Just like the slot profiles in Abeling's video wheel.

M.
Title: free CAD programme
Post by: oscar on April 13, 2009, 04:20:24 PM
Anyone know of a free 2D CAD or drawing package that is:

1)  Simple to learn
2)  Can accurately draw all the basic 2D geometric shapes and elements
3)  Has basic editing tools like cut, extend, trim, move, copy, mirror, array, offset, scale, etc.
4)  Can export as DXF

qcad community release.
interface and handling are much like autocad.
file format is dxf.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qcad
download windows binary from:
http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=240145
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Grimer on April 13, 2009, 04:35:45 PM
I predict that all computer modelling will be unsuccessful since it uses the laws of mechanics as we know them.

I believe there is an additional law governing the interaction between gravitational acceleration and inertial mass of which we are not yet aware. Something like the law of magnetic induction, say, discovered by Faraday. Every Sunday I am privileged to pass by  the shop where he worked as an apprentice bookbinder (http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q171/frank260332/bookbinder.jpg) two centuries ago.

However, don't let me put you off your worthy herculean task. Even negative demonstrations are worth having because if the Abeling motor does prove to be a goer it will lead people to ask why their mathematical models failed.

Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: i_ron on April 13, 2009, 05:17:52 PM
I predict that all computer modelling will be unsuccessful since it uses the laws of mechanics as we know them.


Exactly!  garbage in equals garbage out.

But then I failed at learning auto cad and am 'limited' to cut and try, LOL

Some good posts Sir, a bit fanciful perhaps but no argument from here.

Ron
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: eisenficker2000 on April 13, 2009, 05:34:04 PM
Computer models are there to simulate reality, after being calibrated and checked by measurements off the practical outcome of the real system, in the real world.

Is Abelings "demo-barn" wheel without weights the real stuff or just an illustration?
Is the patent on purpose misleading, having an Easter egg full of promise without practical functionality?

Patents enough....without working guarantees.
I like the idea of patent, but before allowing it to be registered, it should be technically proven to work, in my simple opinion. And  more wishfull thinking  ::)
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: i_ron on April 13, 2009, 05:34:29 PM
Hi Ron,

Nothing in here about a 'scissor' action. In fact, if there were a scissor action it would seem the additional friction would simply slow the wheel down. Instead, the propelled weight is 'moving faster than the system' (once a critical speed is reached) through the effect of centrifigal force.

Charlie

But the weight and axle are moving from 6 o'clock to 12 o'clock in "nearly" a straight line, where is
the centrifugal force?

Looking at the motion from 9 o'clock to 12...the slot width is maintained at the width of the axle,
until the final moment, when because of the hook in the slot the width of the resultant slot closes
off, pinches off, scissors off...spitting the axle out with force, allowing the slow moving axle to
catch up with the fast moving catch pocket!

Ron


Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: noonespecial on April 13, 2009, 06:24:44 PM
But the weight and axle are moving from 6 o'clock to 12 o'clock in "nearly" a straight line, where is
the centrifugal force?

Looking at the motion from 9 o'clock to 12...the slot width is maintained at the width of the axle,
until the final moment, when because of the hook in the slot the width of the resultant slot closes
off, pinches off, scissors off...spitting the axle out with force, allowing the slow moving axle to
catch up with the fast moving catch pocket!

Ron

Hi Ron,

I was just keying off of his comment that the weights are alledgedly "moving faster than the system".  Again, if what you say is true, then in my opinion this is nothing more than yet another unproven overbalanced wheel assuming there is nothing unique to this design.

Charlie

Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AB Hammer on April 13, 2009, 07:13:35 PM
Hi Ron,

I was just keying off of his comment that the weights are alledgedly "moving faster than the system".  Again, if what you say is true, then in my opinion this is nothing more than yet another unproven overbalanced wheel assuming there is nothing unique to this design.

Charlie



Greetings Charlie

That is one of the reasons I posted one of my old designs. For if the Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel, would work. Mine would as well. IMO Here is the link to my string with some written improvements for it, if someone wanted to build it. It was on my list to build one day when I didn't have a better design to try. So why not post it on its own string. I feel it has a better than average chance but the average of the over balanced wheel stinks. LOL
 http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7235.0;topicseen

Don't get me wrong, I am interested in how the Sjack Abeling gravity wheel truly comes out, and I hope for the best. But I am not good at simulations either, so I can't be of much help in that field.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: i_ron on April 13, 2009, 07:38:49 PM
Hi Ron,

I was just keying off of his comment that the weights are alledgedly "moving faster than the system".  Again, if what you say is true, then in my opinion this is nothing more than yet another unproven overbalanced wheel assuming there is nothing unique to this design.

Charlie


Hi Charlie,

Yes, but the point at which the weights are moving faster than the system is not stated. It is my contention that they are, but after the constriction.

To me, that hook at the end of the slot is the key to the wheel. This is what makes the wheel work. I have been searching for a proper name for this effect that he is using and while it is the most basic mechanical motion it is used so very infrequently. The only analogy that comes to mind is working in a hydraulic press. The “action” we are talking about is not wanted. The two planes are required to absolutely parallel. If one plane is the slightest out of parallel then the forces are not transmitted perpendicular and disaster strikes… the work is propelled out of the press with extreme velocity.

So the weights are in two states, the outer weights at high velocity and the inner  weights at a slower velocity, as they are describing a smaller radius. If, as in previous wheels, the weighs are just feed back into the high velocity circuit they will take energy from the wheel to bring them up to speed. That is why we have never seen a working wheel before. This is why all the syms show a “semi” balanced wheel…. one must factor in the squeeze.

Take a greasy cherry pit between the thumb and bent finger… yes?  It goes a long way, does it not?  This is, or must be, the final action as the slow moving weight is feed back into the high velocity circuit… to give it a little squeeze and spit it back into the higher velocity circuit at speed. 

And you might ask… where is this in the computer models?

Ron
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: noonespecial on April 13, 2009, 07:58:39 PM
Greetings Charlie

That is one of the reasons I posted one of my old designs. For if the Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel, would work. Mine would as well. IMO Here is the link to my string with some written improvements for it, if someone wanted to build it. It was on my list to build one day when I didn't have a better design to try. So why not post it on its own string. I feel it has a better than average chance but the average of the over balanced wheel stinks. LOL
 http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7235.0;topicseen

Don't get me wrong, I am interested in how the Sjack Abeling gravity wheel truly comes out, and I hope for the best. But I am not good at simulations either, so I can't be of much help in that field.

Hi AB,

Good to talk to you again! I did look at your design and quite frankly, I would think that yours has a better chance of working than Sjack's. I would encourage you to build one. And while we are on the subject of builds, here's a shameless self-promotion of my latest one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uKoAwFFwPY

Like you, I am interested in Sjack's design but I won't hold my breath waiting for a press release. At least Bob Kostoff provided a video of his design working. Although, he seems to have been spirited away by the MIB :).

Anyway, I'll keep watching...maybe we'll be pleasantly surprised someday.

Best,
Charlie
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: rbe on April 13, 2009, 08:13:51 PM
Hi all,

Just a few questions that popped in to mind. Has anyone thought of the actual dumbell design and might it be essential to make the wheel work as stated by the patent.

* Will the dumbell's spin in a (counter?)clockwise motion to create some extra down force when they are "shot way" at the top position and then land in the end of the slot?

* Are the dumbell's equipped with... for example ceramic ball bearings to make it extra slippery when its in the "scissor" part of the wheel, to make it more like a cherry pip like Ron describes.

Perhaps this has no real relevance for the wheel performance, just some thoughts.

Cheers
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: noonespecial on April 13, 2009, 08:20:44 PM
Hi Charlie,

Yes, but the point at which the weights are moving faster than the system is not stated. It is my contention that they are, but after the constriction.

To me, that hook at the end of the slot is the key to the wheel. This is what makes the wheel work. I have been searching for a proper name for this effect that he is using and while it is the most basic mechanical motion it is used so very infrequently. The only analogy that comes to mind is working in a hydraulic press. The “action” we are talking about is not wanted. The two planes are required to absolutely parallel. If one plane is the slightest out of parallel then the forces are not transmitted perpendicular and disaster strikes… the work is propelled out of the press with extreme velocity.

So the weights are in two states, the outer weights at high velocity and the inner  weights at a slower velocity, as they are describing a smaller radius. If, as in previous wheels, the weighs are just feed back into the high velocity circuit they will take energy from the wheel to bring them up to speed. That is why we have never seen a working wheel before. This is why all the syms show a “semi” balanced wheel…. one must factor in the squeeze.

Take a greasy cherry pit between the thumb and bent finger… yes?  It goes a long way, does it not?  This is, or must be, the final action as the slow moving weight is feed back into the high velocity circuit… to give it a little squeeze and spit it back into the higher velocity circuit at speed. 

And you might ask… where is this in the computer models?

Ron


Hi Ron,

I do understand your point. However, in both of your examples (hydraulic press and cherry pit) external force is applied first. This force isn't free and is in fact, directly proportional to the projectile energy produced. Squeeze the cherry pit a little and it only goes a little way. Squeeze it harder and it travels farther. There's no magical additional energy produced from this interaction. If you can show that there is, I would be very interested.

Regards,
Charlie
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 13, 2009, 08:51:06 PM
Initial try own wheel and guides, cherrymans egg and a modified cherryman barrier.

Initial speed given to wheel around -0.100 rad/s

It will turn without motor for a loooong time (until wm2d limits)

Not being able to reproduce results from yesterday, but that´s prrobably because there is no true "launching" going on..

Model attached
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 13, 2009, 08:53:07 PM
In both of your examples (hydraulic press and cherry pit) external force is applied first. This force isn't free and is in fact, directly proportional to the projectile energy produced. Squeeze the cherry pit a little and it only goes a little way. Squeeze it harder and it travels farther. There's no magical additional energy produced from this interaction. If you can show that there is, I would be very interested.

This is exactly the source of my concern: even if there is a scissor effect it certainly is not free. The generated momentum caused by the scissor is taken out of the system by friction.

Still continuing to test though...
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 13, 2009, 09:05:24 PM
Well...

Introducing the "valve" ..  and "skipping"

To give the ball a shorter path, you will gain speed (time)  So i try to skip one leg every time, by having one ball less then you have spokes..

Here is a (motorized) concept.


Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 13, 2009, 09:17:03 PM
Well...

Introducing the "valve" ..  and "skipping"

To give the ball a shorter path, you will gain speed (time)  So i try to skip one leg every time, by having one ball less then you have spokes..

Here is a (motorized) concept.

For someone new to wm2d you deliver the most delicious models

Very creative thinking as well 10/10

Thumbs up!
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: broli on April 13, 2009, 09:46:19 PM
Well...

Introducing the "valve" ..  and "skipping"

To give the ball a shorter path, you will gain speed (time)  So i try to skip one leg every time, by having one ball less then you have spokes..

Here is a (motorized) concept.


Wow this model really shows a lot of promise. I tweaked it a bit by removing the motor, gears, the background wheel (repaced it by rods to hold things together), the masses are of reasonable size and also increased the accuracy. There's a very big tendency for rotation and maintaining that rotation.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: broli on April 13, 2009, 09:55:59 PM
Looks like I cheered too soon. The frame without the weights seems to accelerate on its own  ;D. I think this was a known problem with custom polygonal shapes.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 13, 2009, 09:58:30 PM
For someone new to wm2d you deliver the most delicious models

Very creative thinking as well 10/10

Thumbs up!

TNX!

I'm not trying to actually make an exact copy of the patent, I'm trying to find a working concept..  So i go sideways once in a while.

As for the designs, i have more in my head then i can draw  >:( ,   ;D But my knowledge of Rhino does help a lot. From there it is just importing into WM2D, that's the easy part.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AB Hammer on April 13, 2009, 10:00:07 PM
Hi AB,

Good to talk to you again! I did look at your design and quite frankly, I would think that yours has a better chance of working than Sjack's. I would encourage you to build one. And while we are on the subject of builds, here's a shameless self-promotion of my latest one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uKoAwFFwPY

Like you, I am interested in Sjack's design but I won't hold my breath waiting for a press release. At least Bob Kostoff provided a video of his design working. Although, he seems to have been spirited away by the MIB :).

Anyway, I'll keep watching...maybe we'll be pleasantly surprised someday.

Best,
Charlie

Greetings Charlie

 You need to take your device video and use the design in mine together http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhskB-0SjKI&feature=channel_page and see what happens  ;)  I was on a short break. Got to get back to work.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 13, 2009, 10:22:22 PM
Well...

Introducing the "valve" ..  and "skipping"

To give the ball a shorter path, you will gain speed (time)  So i try to skip one leg every time, by having one ball less then you have spokes..

Here is a (motorized) concept.


I fixed the valves, no motor, stand still.

Look at V0

EDIT:  FALSE alarm, there is a wheel imbalance. Very smart idea though CM.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 13, 2009, 10:28:59 PM
I fixed the valves, no motor, stand still.

Look at V0

 :o

LET IT RUN FROM STAND STILL

 :o :o

hey when i have real working models this forum would be to small  ;D

Understand that I'm testing concepts and share the progress for information and critics.


These concept should be judged on potential . This one uses for spokes, so imagine you have 8 or more..  will that help?  and so on...  That's what I'm doing.   

So sometimes i create a selfstarter to see what happens, and sometimes i use motordrive to work out the concept, to make it selfstart there is need of some tweaking.   The question is, is it worth it, will the concept add something.. Well i think valves and shortening the path is fun enough to look closer at.. So I'll be back!  ;D

Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 13, 2009, 10:39:11 PM
O, it is not symmetrical.

I thought for a moment there was acceleration out of thin air...

 ;D

EDIT: actually the spheres were mixed materials, the wheel is fine..
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 13, 2009, 10:49:52 PM
So sometimes i create a selfstarter to see what happens, and sometimes i use motordrive to work out the concept, to make it selfstart there is need of some tweaking.   The question is, is it worth it, will the concept add something.. Well i think valves and shortening the path is fun enough to look closer at.. So I'll be back!  ;D

That was the point, when I reset the model speeds to 0 and removed the motor... It started...

But... see previous post
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: persume on April 13, 2009, 11:39:24 PM
Zippadee doo da
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: noonespecial on April 14, 2009, 12:12:40 AM
Greetings Charlie

 You need to take your device video and use the design in mine together http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhskB-0SjKI&feature=channel_page and see what happens  ;)  I was on a short break. Got to get back to work.


Hi AB,

Seems like yours runs fine on its own!  The bike wheel in mine is being used as a simple flywheel that will ultimately drive a generator or alternator. I believe I will be able to show honest and sustainable overunity when it is completed. Thanks for subscribing!

Regards,
Charlie
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: LarryC on April 14, 2009, 12:24:55 AM
Just to help some to understand the potential of the centrifugal sling force involved, please look at http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=2326.msg153063#msg153063.

It shows a centrifugal sling capture testbed and performance data based on Bob Kostoff design. Since there are two connected weights, the forces would be less than in Abeling design, because each weight is being counterbalanced by the centrifugal pull force of the other based on distance from the center.

Abeling's design has the advantage of multiple weights slinging outward in the same vertical plane. It may not be as efficient at the capture of the CF sling force due to Abeling's use of a directional change to impact the bottom right of the hockeystick in the rotational direction to increase the acceleration. But the multiple weights should give it the advantage. Abeling's design is also much simpler than Bob's pneumatics, cam, and lever approach.


Regards, Larry

 
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 14, 2009, 12:25:24 AM
@Cherryman,

Can you scale down the rotor to, say, 1m diameter? Now it's huge -- 80m and that interferes with the concept. (see attached)
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 14, 2009, 12:40:02 AM
Here is a smaller version, you well have to redo the constraints.

Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: LarryC on April 14, 2009, 01:34:09 AM
Just to help some to understand the potential of the centrifugal sling force involved, please look at http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=2326.msg153063#msg153063.

It shows a centrifugal sling capture testbed and performance data based on Bob Kostoff design. Since there are two connected weights, the forces would be less than in Abeling design, because each weight is being counterbalanced by the centrifugal pull force of the other based on distance from the center.

Abeling's design has the advantage of multiple weights slinging outward in the same vertical plane. It may not be as efficient at the capture of the CF sling force due to Abeling's use of a directional change to impact the bottom right of the hockeystick in the rotational direction to increase the acceleration. But the multiple weights should give it the advantage. Abeling's design is also much simpler than Bob's pneumatics, cam, and lever approach.

Just wondering, can any of you WM2D programmers recreate the results of a actual CF sling capture physical testbed result? If any specification is missing, I would be glad to respond.

It would be interesting to know if WM2D can predict CF sling capture force.

Regards, Larry

 
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: noonespecial on April 14, 2009, 01:40:19 AM
Just wondering, can any of you WM2D programmers recreate the results of a actual CF sling capture physical testbed result? If any specification is missing, I would be glad to respond.

It would be interesting to know if WM2D can handle CF sling capture.

Regards, Larry

Hi Larry,

I think your first challenge is to convince anyone here that there is any centrifugal force related to this design. At least that's been my experience :).

Regards,
Charlie
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AB Hammer on April 14, 2009, 02:23:37 AM
Just wondering, can any of you WM2D programmers recreate the results of a actual CF sling capture physical testbed result? If any specification is missing, I would be glad to respond.

It would be interesting to know if WM2D can predict CF sling capture force.

Regards, Larry

 

Greetings Larry

 Over on Bessler Wheel there are some very good WM2D users, and it seems like many working wheels in WM2D, but not in real life. Most of them use it to work out ideas, not as proof.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 14, 2009, 02:29:49 AM
@AB Hammer,

Quote
and it seems like many working wheels in WM2D

Can you give us an example of a working gravity wheel in WM2D?
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AB Hammer on April 14, 2009, 02:47:26 AM
@AB Hammer,

Can you give us an example of a working gravity wheel in WM2D?

Omnibus

Join up at Besslerwheel.com and look up member KAS. He had one that looked real promising, but when built it didn't work, but it did in WM2D.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 14, 2009, 02:57:14 AM
Omnibus

Join up at Besslerwheel.com and look up member KAS. He had one that looked real promising, but when built it didn't work, but it did in WM2D.

Do you have a link to that?
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 14, 2009, 03:22:00 AM
Do you have a link to that?

Here is a self starter, we had a discussion about it I believe a year ago..

There are more out there, I cannot explain this one, it is an unbalanced huge construction.

Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 14, 2009, 03:23:56 AM
Hi Larry,

I think your first challenge is to convince anyone here that there is any centrifugal force related to this design. At least that's been my experience :).

Regards,
Charlie

Well there is an acceleration of the weight due to the curves, but the friction... always the friction will negate the energy generated by this acceleration. It is frustrating
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 14, 2009, 03:26:51 AM
Here is a self starter, we had a discussion about it I believe a year ago..

There are more out there, I cannot explain this one, it is an unbalanced huge construction.



Now we need @mondrasek to take a look at this and analyze it. Can you dig out more examples? This is really interesting.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 14, 2009, 03:52:06 AM
Now we need @mondrasek to take a look at this and analyze it. Can you dig out more examples? This is really interesting.

Well do not get too excited, I even invited a wm2d engineer to discuss this one... He said the model was "wrong" but that it was not the program´s fault, there is a thread in here somewhere...

If you run into the limit just do start here and run again where you left off. at around 68000 frames it reaches -2.5 rad/s and then all of a sudden (like it reaches a structural limit) slows all the way down to 0, starts spinning counterclockwise  stops, and starts again.

Really weird. I do not have more, this was just the one I saved.

Makes a nice screensaver
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 14, 2009, 03:54:33 AM
@AquariuZ,

Have you tried it scaled down from 500m to 1m, for instance? One should try to write the equations governing this and see rigorously what the conditions for it to work are.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 14, 2009, 04:32:40 AM
@AquariuZ,

Quote
He said the model was "wrong" but that it was not the program´s fault,

He hasn't said that much that engineer, has he? That's why I want to hear what @mondrasek has to say. Can you find the link? Was in on bessler.com or it was on this site? This is a very interesting structure which doesn't have springs and other stuff to complicate matters. If WM2D cannot handle this simple device what good is it? One thing, as I said, I'd like to see it substantially scaled down
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: hansvonlieven on April 14, 2009, 04:57:02 AM
I remember the discussion with the WM2D guy at the time. He gave a lot of nonsense reasons, whatever he said did not make much sense.

My suspicion at the time was the very low mass value of the connecting piece. The engineer denied this. I told him that all you had to do was to change the mass of that piece to 1 kg or more and it would behave as expected; and that I thought there was a programme bug. At this point he became rather abusive. I left it at that.

I have a whole collection of WM2D constructs that show perpetual motion when they should not. There are a number of iteration errors, possibly caused by rounding, that are cumulative in WM2D. I think that this causes some of these problems.

Here is one example

Hans von Lieven
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 14, 2009, 05:17:50 AM
Hans,

Thanks for the example. However, turn on the air resistance (on low) and you'll see it'll behave normally. Recall several pages back I had a similar example exhibiting weird behavior, getting into instabilities even, and @mondrasek and someone else explained what the real story is. In @KAS's case, however, air resistance is turned on, it doesn't have complicated joints, springs etc. and still works. Like I said I'm waiting to hear what @mondrasek has to say on that.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: persume on April 14, 2009, 05:51:45 AM
I remember the discussion with the WM2D guy at the time. He gave a lot of nonsense reasons, whatever he said did not make much sense.

My suspicion at the time was the very low mass value of the connecting piece. The engineer denied this. I told him that all you had to do was to change the mass of that piece to 1 kg or more and it would behave as expected; and that I thought there was a programme bug. At this point he became rather abusive. I left it at that.

I have a whole collection of WM2D constructs that show perpetual motion when they should not. There are a number of iteration errors, possibly caused by rounding, that are cumulative in WM2D. I think that this causes some of these problems.

Here is one example

Hans von Lieven

I remember you posting about that Hans.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Grimer on April 14, 2009, 08:12:52 AM
I have been able to find a picture of a vertical axis Ventomobil. It on this video at 28 seconds in (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBm6DU_t9i0).

It can be seen from the video that this particular Ventomobil uses blades. In order to move closer to the mechanics of the Abeling Gravimobil we have to imagine a Ventomobil which uses Flettner rotors as the blades.

Now what in the rising weight flywheel of the Abeling Gravimobil is acting equivalent to the Flettner rotors of a vertical axis mobil and driving it into the gravitational wind? ???

It has to be the rotating entity where the mass is concentrated, i.e. the atomic nucleus. Under the action of the combined gravitational and inertial acceleration this rotation must be polarised to some extent in an analogous way to the polarization of electron when emitting Bremsstrahlung radiation at near light speed.

It is these massive rotating nuclei which are interacting with the gravitational wind and giving the flywheel the added torque - effectively reducing its gravitational mass and allowing it to "sail" directly into the gravitational wind using the power of that wind.

It rather reminds one of that Japanese art of self defence, Jujitsu.  :)
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 14, 2009, 08:21:22 AM
Did you see this from besslerwheel.com? (see attached)
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: mindsweeper on April 14, 2009, 09:04:47 AM
Here, a working wheel of sorts. It shows the inherent problems when attempting to model a gravity wheel with polygons.

There are many others far more complex than this. And many more on besslerwheel.com (like the above post)

Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: mindsweeper on April 14, 2009, 09:17:55 AM
And this one with no polygons, works ok but in the real world?
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 14, 2009, 09:22:55 AM
@mindsweeper,

Turn the air resistance off this time and the behavior seems to turn somewhat back to normal.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: mindsweeper on April 14, 2009, 09:41:50 AM
@mindsweeper,

Turn the air resistance off this time and the behavior seems to turn somewhat back to normal.

Yes, exactly my point, that should prove the unpredictability of WM2D imho..
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: hansvonlieven on April 14, 2009, 09:51:21 AM
Here are another two, I cannot remember who posted the first one but Stefan posted the second one. Both are WM2D stuff ups.

@ Omnibus

I know if you change almost any parameter it behaves almost normally. This is hardly the point though. If the system gives false results on a pure setting (ie. no outside influences) it will hardly give more reliable results when outside forces enter into the picture. Are you seriously suggesting that the model in question will work as shown in a vacuum?
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 14, 2009, 09:53:19 AM
Yes, exactly my point, that should prove the unpredictability of WM2D imho..

Take a look at the calculated and displayed velocity and acceleration. There's something very confusing about all this. Someone should explain what's going on. Otherwise it's just a waste of time to model these contraptions. (see attached)
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 14, 2009, 09:57:35 AM
Here are another two, I cannot remember who posted the first one but Stefan posted the second one. Both are WM2D stuff ups.

@ Omnibus

I know if you change almost any parameter it behaves almost normally. This is hardly the point though. If the system gives false results on a pure setting (ie. no outside influences) it will hardly give more reliable results when outside forces enter into the picture. Are you seriously suggesting that the model in question will work as shown in a vacuum?

Correct. That was exactly my point. If you go back some 10-15 pages you'll see that I raised exactly this question about the device working in vacuum. The explanation given was that elements such as springs are not ideal and there are always some losses which in this case are modeled by the air resistance (and I thought I read somewhere in several other ways such as deliberate inducing slight back force, back torque and the like).

The problem is that in this last example (before the two you gave) the "correct" result appear to be when air resistance is turned off rather than on. Go figure.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: hansvonlieven on April 14, 2009, 10:01:50 AM
Perhaps not a complete waste of time Omnibus,

but personally I don't see in WM2D much more than a rough guide. In some configurations it is very good. Put complex polygons into the picture or have too many elements interacting it fucks up. The programme does have a number of bugs regardless of what the WM2D guy says.

Just a couple of cents wort from me.

Hans von Lieven
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 14, 2009, 10:12:11 AM
Hans,

Your last examples are very interesting but in them one may start imagining things because they are quite complex and in a sense elaborate. Also, one may think that because of their complexity certain stages of the calculations take place out of order and that causes the seeming effect. This last worker.wm2d, however, is really puzzling because it seems as simple as can be and one can hardly suppose that such a simple example would pose any calculating problems. Something must be wrong with the algorithm of the program. Unless that's indeed a real effect. You know, I'm not excluding such circumstances because what we are dealing with are the outmost fringes of what the mainstream considers science and trained scientists won't touch this with a ten foot pole (we know why). So, it very well may be that there's something which simply hasn't been studied or has been ignored for being a threat to one's career in professional science.

No doubt, if it really is a true effect it has to be confirmed by a working lab device in flesh in blood.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: robbie47 on April 14, 2009, 10:16:58 AM
Gents,

Here are the drawings from the patent.
I'll post the rest later, since max attachment size is 250KB.

Main text is in Dutch. I can translate this but it will take some time.
(I am Dutch myself)
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: mindsweeper on April 14, 2009, 10:19:47 AM
Hans,

Your last examples are very interesting but in them one may start imagining things because they are quite complex and in a sense elaborate. Also, one may think that because of their complexity certain stages of the calculations take place out of order and that causes the seeming effect. This last worker.wm2d, however, is really puzzling because it seems as simple as can be and one can hardly suppose that such a simple example would pose any calculating problems. Something must be wrong with the algorithm of the program. Unless that's indeed a real effect. You know, I'm not excluding such circumstances because what we are dealing with are the outmost fringes of what the mainstream considers science and trained scientists won't touch this with a ten foot pole (we know why). So, it very well may be that there's something which simply hasn't been studied or has been ignored for being a threat to one's career in professional science.

No doubt, if it really is a true effect it has to be confirmed by a working lab device in flesh in blood.

I assume you are talking about my design, it does not work in the real world. I have tried it.

I also posted another (where double post was) without using polygons. I did them about 6 to 8 months ago and Hans pointed out the errors so I made a quick model with stuff I had lying about and the results were negative.


EDIT: this is why I requested a WM2D section for the board but nothing was created, all these topics could have been covered there.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: hansvonlieven on April 14, 2009, 10:31:20 AM
G'day Mindsweeper,

If I remember correctly there was such a thread a while ago. There was not much interest then and it kind of died.  >:(

Maybe now that there is a lot more interest in the programme we should start it again. I for one would be interested.

Hans von Lieven
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: hansvonlieven on April 14, 2009, 10:37:38 AM
Gents,

Here are the drawings from the patent.
I'll post the rest later, since max attachment size is 250KB.

Main text is in Dutch. I can translate this but it will take some time.
(I am Dutch myself)

Have a look back a bit in this thread. Someone already translated it. Not that there is much in it. It's all bullshit anyway. The guy is a wanker.

Hans von Lieven
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 14, 2009, 10:41:31 AM
@mindsweeper,

I think the topic of MW2D is intrinsic here and it shouldn't be moved elsewhere. For now this is the only possibility to test the ideas we're discussing but we have to know clearly the limitations. Therefore, we need a very clear explanation as to why your device is modeled incorrectly, if that's the case. Of course, I don't doubt your manufacturing and experimental skills but even the most skilled experimenters sometimes overlook things or come upon an interesting fact by sheer luck. That's so typical even when the great minds carry out experiments. So, let's see if someone can come up with a clear explanation as to what's happening with your model. The best would be to have a mathematician specializing in mechanics to write the equations governing the system an prove rigorously that based on classical mechanics what we see isn't possible. That may seem trivial but it isn't unless one is inclined to take for granted that we're done with classical mechanics and there cannot be new findings there.

I did a quick "replication" of your model and you can see, it goes berserk under high speed air resistance, destroying itself. No air resistance seems to calm it down to "normal" behavior. Why is that? (see attached)
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: hansvonlieven on April 14, 2009, 10:51:56 AM
You pay far too much attention to mathematics Omnibus,

The test of a system is experiment, nothing else!

When this is done mathematics can be pulled in to create an analogy to what is happening in the real world.

But that is all it is!

I am not saying mathematics is useless, far from it, but you must bear in mind it is only an explanation of the phenomenon, not the phenomenon itself.

Hans von Lieven
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 14, 2009, 10:52:38 AM
Nobody seems to have noticed another patent, from 2004, which I uploaded earlier. The idea seems practically the same as Abeling's. Here it is again (see attached)

Wonder what will happen if someone calls the guy and asks for a demonstration? Bet you he's gonna be nowhere to be found. It's kinda weird Sjack Abeling isn't so much reclusive (I, for one, spoke personally with him, as I reported here, to no avail).You may recall about a year or two ago there was a discussion here on these matters -- USPTO issuing perpetuum mobile patents which they claim isn't their job to refute. Their understanding is that if the patent is no good it will simply die out and if someone is so much interested in voiding such non-working patents, the only recourse it to go through the court system.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: mindsweeper on April 14, 2009, 10:58:15 AM
@ Omnibus

That does pick up speed very quickly, I have pondered over this for many months and ended up discounting it due to the many working prototypes I have seen in WM2D. I don't know why the model does what it does but when I originally made the design I wanted to use CF to my advantage and this was the model I came up with.

My modeling capability is not very good and when I say I threw something together I mean that is what I did, if there is something here then it's all open and free for anyone to pick up and run with it as they see fit.

@ Hans

Do you think I should start another thread, perhaps take it over to Besslerwheel ?
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 14, 2009, 11:06:23 AM
You pay far too much attention to mathematics Omnibus,

The test of a system is experiment, nothing else!

When this is done mathematics can be pulled in to create an analogy to what is happening in the real world.

But that is all it is!

I am not saying mathematics is useless, far from it, but you must bear in mind it is only an explanation of the phenomenon, not the phenomenon itself.

Hans von Lieven

No, no, don't get me wrong. Far from it. I've always insisted physics makes mathematics, not vice versa. In this case, however, equations describing the phenomena at hand are claimed to have been pretty well studied. However, I'm not excluding the possibility that even these allegedly so well studied equation may yield something unexpected. It's for a physicist to look at the solution, though, because a mathematician, being a poet in science, usually tends to be carried away and would be satisfied by the beauty of the equation, never mind that it doesn't make physical sense. Some physicists are falling into this trap, unfortunately, and that has to change.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: hansvonlieven on April 14, 2009, 11:07:38 AM
Yes Omnibus,

there are a number of so called patents on the loose about this sort of thing. Frankly I don't think patent offices care anymore. As long as the prescribed wording is OK they will issue a patent. No-one checks, no-one cares about anything other than the fees.

For instance, just about anything Milkovic has patented was patented in the 1920's by George Constantinesco. Evidently the Serbian patent office is totally oblivious of that fact.

The Dutch patent office does not seem to be any better, nor is the USPTO.

The whole system appears to have become a lawyer's scam

Hans von Lieven
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: hansvonlieven on April 14, 2009, 11:09:04 AM
No, no, don't get me wrong. Far from it. I've always insisted physics makes mathematics, not vice versa. In this case, however, equations describing the phenomena at hand are claimed to have been pretty well studied. However, I'm not excluding the possibility that even these allegedly so well studied equation may yield something unexpected. It's for a physicist to look at the solution, though, because a mathematician, being a poet in science, usually tends to be carried away and would be satisfied by the beauty of the equation, never mind that it doesn't make physical sense. Some physicists are falling into this trap, unfortunately, and that has to change.

LOL Omnibus, I like the poet bit  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Hans
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Grimer on April 14, 2009, 11:11:17 AM
I see that I am in good company is proposing a gravitational wind that is blowing steadily downwards. None other than that canonised scientific saint, Newton himself.  ::)

"Remarkably, Newton himself does not seem to have ruled out the possibility of a perpetual motion machine. It is a little known fact that in his early notebooks under the heading "Quaestiones"[sic] Newton speculates that gravity (heaviness) is caused by the descent of a subtle matter which strikes all bodies and carries them down. "Whither ye rays of gravity may bee stopped by reflecting or refracting ye, if so a perpetual motion may bee made one of these two ways." Adjacent to these words, Newton added two sketches of perpetual motion powered by the "flux of the gravitational stream".
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: hansvonlieven on April 14, 2009, 11:11:52 AM

@ Hans

Do you think I should start another thread, perhaps take it over to Besslerwheel ?

There is already such a thread at besslerwheel Mindsweeper.

Hans
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 14, 2009, 11:15:13 AM
Hans,

Do you have any of Constantinesco's patents. Would be interesting to take a look.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 14, 2009, 11:22:44 AM
Oké, i tried a new path..  Gears

Just a concept, full of mistakes  ;D ... I have to sweeten it still a little

 
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: hansvonlieven on April 14, 2009, 11:26:11 AM
I see that I am in good company is proposing a gravitational wind that is blowing steadily downwards. None other than that canonised scientific saint, Newton himself.  ::)

"Remarkably, Newton himself does not seem to have ruled out the possibility of a perpetual motion machine. It is a little known fact that in his early notebooks under the heading "Quaestiones"[sic] Newton speculates that gravity (heaviness) is caused by the descent of a subtle matter which strikes all bodies and carries them down. "Whither ye rays of gravity may bee stopped by reflecting or refracting ye, if so a perpetual motion may bee made one of these two ways." Adjacent to these words, Newton added two sketches of perpetual motion powered by the "flux of the gravitational stream".

Helmholtz, the guy who came up with the conservation of energy laws did not think that perpetual was impossible either, see below quote, which has been excised by science from his paper "Ueber die Erhaltung der Kraft" (On the conservation of force)

One wonders why.

Hans von Lieven
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 14, 2009, 11:49:13 AM
A slightly improved version,


It's just to show the concept..   


The trick is that you gear the wheel so that there are always more balls (Weight)  going down then there are going up.  So tho accomplish that, the path up must either be shorter or faster, prefarably both!!


Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: hartiberlin on April 14, 2009, 01:22:35 PM
And this one with no polygons, works ok but in the real world?

There is a problem with WM2D with the ridgid joints,
So always only use pin joints,
Just use 2 pin joints, if you need to fix 2 things together.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Grimer on April 14, 2009, 01:23:06 PM
Helmholtz, the guy who came up with the conservation of energy laws did not think that perpetual was impossible either, see below quote, which has been excised by science from his paper "Ueber die Erhaltung der Kraft" (On the conservation of force)

One wonders why.

Hans von Lieven

Force is only an alias for a unrecognised or hidden strain. I realised this years ago from my work on materials testing where what one takes as stress and what one takes as strain is quite arbitrary.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 14, 2009, 01:33:34 PM
There is a problem with WM2D with the ridgid joints,
So always only use pin joints,
Just use 2 pin joints, if you need to fix 2 things together.

Thanks, Stefan. That seems to fix the problem also with KAS's model. Wonder why is that? Probably the program treats the rigid joints as some kind of active elements.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: hartiberlin on April 14, 2009, 01:34:58 PM
Take a look at the calculated and displayed velocity and acceleration. There's something very confusing about all this. Someone should explain what's going on. Otherwise it's just a waste of time to model these contraptions. (see attached)

* Worker-1wVectors.wm2d

Again the rigid joint problem.
I just fixed this using 2 pin joints.
Then it behaves normal.

Never use RIGID JOINTs in WM2D.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 14, 2009, 01:40:22 PM
Again the rigid joint problem.
I just fixed this using 2 pin joints.
Then it behaves normal.

Never use RIGID JOINTs in WM2D.

Correct. I saw that. Fixes also KAS's design. Have you noticed, when with rigid joint they seem to wobble slightly during the rendering process. Will have to try with that design I posted 20 or so pages back that we discussed with @mondrasek. Forgot what exact page that was.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 14, 2009, 01:40:56 PM
The key is that if you have a WM2D model, it should accalerate! Because otherwise you can't built in in real. The accaleration is "the force" you need to have it at least stay at a steady rpm in real life.  (Not to mention to hook up  generator)
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: hartiberlin on April 14, 2009, 01:47:03 PM
Nobody seems to have noticed another patent, from 2004, which I uploaded earlier. The idea seems practically the same as Abeling's. Here it is again (see attached)

Wonder what will happen if someone calls the guy and asks for a demonstration? Bet you he's gonna be nowhere to be found. It's kinda weird Sjack Abeling isn't so much reclusive (I, for one, spoke personally with him, as I reported here, to no avail).You may recall about a year or two ago there was a discussion here on these matters -- USPTO issuing perpetuum mobile patents which they claim isn't their job to refute. Their understanding is that if the patent is no good it will simply die out and if someone is so much interested in voiding such non-working patents, the only recourse it to go through the court system.


Interesting patent, but I wonder,
if the friction on the walls will not kill all the effects again ?

But maybe worth a try in WM2D.

Regards, Stefan.

P.S. I am almost much convinced now, that the Abeling wheel
does not work as drawn in his patent.
Just moving weights on elliptical pathes in a wheel just does not work.

There must be still something else, like 90 degrees weight pulling
or something simular to the Milkovic pendulum, etc...
But just an overbalanced wheel with just pure weights going up and
down in circles or elliptical pathes, just does not work.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 14, 2009, 01:49:26 PM
OK, here it is. There are no rigid joints here (see attached) but @mondrasek explained that the problem was due to the spring. Somehow the calculations get out of sequence. To take care of this (and the inevitable losses in the spring) one turns on air resistance. I mentioned that at that time and now Hans also noted that this is inconsistent with an experiment in vacuum. Anyway, that seems to be a problem, although what @mondrasek explained makes sense. Seems that losses should be accounted for differently and the "out of sequence" problem should be amended by changing the algorithm probably.

EDIT: Changed the anchors w/ double pins. No joy either.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 14, 2009, 02:33:31 PM
OK, here it is. There are no rigid joints here (see attached) but @mondrasek explained that the problem was due to the spring. Somehow the calculations get out of sequence. To take care of this (and the inevitable losses in the spring) one turns on air resistance. I mentioned that at that time and now Hans also noted that this is inconsistent with an experiment in vacuum. Anyway, that seems to be a problem, although what @mondrasek explained makes sense. Seems that losses should be accounted for differently and the "out of sequence" problem should be amended by changing the algorithm probably.

EDIT: Changed the anchors w/ double pins. No joy either.

 ;D
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: hartiberlin on April 14, 2009, 02:45:43 PM
OK, here it is. There are no rigid joints here (see attached) but @mondrasek explained that the problem was due to the spring. Somehow the calculations get out of sequence. To take care of this (and the inevitable losses in the spring) one turns on air resistance. I mentioned that at that time and now Hans also noted that this is inconsistent with an experiment in vacuum. Anyway, that seems to be a problem, although what @mondrasek explained makes sense. Seems that losses should be accounted for differently and the "out of sequence" problem should be amended by changing the algorithm probably.

EDIT: Changed the anchors w/ double pins. No joy either.

Yes, seems to be another error,
also at frame 1463 the right ball falls through the blue see-saw bar,
as if it would be not there...
Strange error...
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: mrsean2k on April 14, 2009, 02:46:51 PM
I see that I am in good company is proposing a gravitational wind that is blowing steadily downwards. None other than that canonised scientific saint, Newton himself.  ::)

"Remarkably, Newton himself does not seem to have ruled out the possibility of a perpetual motion machine. It is a little known fact that in his early notebooks under the heading "Quaestiones"[sic] Newton speculates that gravity (heaviness) is caused by the descent of a subtle matter which strikes all bodies and carries them down. "Whither ye rays of gravity may bee stopped by reflecting or refracting ye, if so a perpetual motion may bee made one of these two ways." Adjacent to these words, Newton added two sketches of perpetual motion powered by the "flux of the gravitational stream".

Frank,

I posted this on the Steorn forum (bar a few spelling corrections and elaborations) in reponse to your repeat of this post. Could you try to enlighten me?

==================================

One thing puzzles me about this view though Frank.

If I accept for a moment that there *is* a gravitational "wind" of some kind, I still don't understand how *any* of the devices proposed would make use of this.

The orientation of these rotational devices is all vertical, not horizontal, i.e. the blades are edge on, not face-on into the wind. I think in the case of a windmill for instance this would result in no movement?


I suppose if I was to take a device like this:

http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/museum/arab-t.gif

and apply an *actual* wind-force directly from above - using a large fan for instance - it would turn CCW as the surface area presented by the arms on the LHS of the wheel is larger than that on the RHS.

Other objections aside (I don't need to be saved by being reminded how "mad" this idea is considered, thanks) is my interpretation of your analogy just too literal? Is surface area presented the wrong analogy. i.e it doesn't rely on force per unit area / volume providing a displacement at right-angles to the "wind" itself?
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: hartiberlin on April 14, 2009, 02:48:52 PM
;D
boing4weird3-1_With_Block.wm2d

And here the ball falls through at frame 1277...
Strange.

Probably too much motion of the blue see-saw bar does not trigger the collide function
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 14, 2009, 02:50:19 PM
IF there is gravitational wind, then would a horizontal windmill in a vacuüm start spinning?
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 14, 2009, 02:51:33 PM
And here the ball falls through at frame 1277...
Strange.

Probably too much motion of the blue see-saw bar does not trigger the collide function

Yep, or the programm does not calculate a trajactory, but single points. And when at high speeds the points probarly will not collide (A resolution problem of the program)
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: broli on April 14, 2009, 03:06:52 PM
Cheeryman a few tips:

1) Refrain from using polygonal shapes. In your latest model all polygonal shapes can be simple primitives.
2) Always increase the accuracy of both the steps as the integration error to look for consistent results on highly accurate simulations. Again in your latest model if you increase both values by two orders of magnitude you get a completely different result.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: hartiberlin on April 14, 2009, 03:07:39 PM
New simulation about the Abeling wheel from the
ab-az-cm-2.wm2d file.

I removed the motor and applied just a force onto the wheel for 400 frames to speed it up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rM8SmU9pjcI

But also this does not work.
Just elliptical pathes in a wheel do not work to get a gravity wheel working.

This animation has a force applied for the first 400 frames, to help speed it up.
After the 400 frames it must work by itsself and you see, how it slows down and then stops
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 14, 2009, 03:12:49 PM
@Stefan

Thanks for the tip about the rigid joints (Now he tells me!)  ;D

I totally agree Abeling is hiding something, because at best you have a very low loss construction like one of the models I posted earlier. Not overunity. The construction as presented in the patent is not new and disproven on several occaisions over the years, same goes for the 2004 patent which Omnibus posted. Interesting as it is, friction kills it.

@Hans

Trial and error is the way to go, the theory can be defined later I totally agree. Tesla would strongly disagree, but he built his devices in his head and tested them before putting a single thing to paper. Edison was more a trial and error engineer hence the two could not stand each other.

If Tesla had a decent way to simulate models back in the day, who knows we would probably be terraforming our third planet by now.

@Omnibus, in the original KADweird just set the mass of the blue rod to 1 KG. The problem is that the dimensions of the rod are around 150 meters by 20 meters and it has a mass of less than a gram. Hence "impossible" because there is no such material. That, combined with the for me new discovery of the rigid joint factor will explain away most of the erratic behaviour. Pity about the joints.

@Cherryman: in your model you have a tiny opening in the ring structure through which the balls fly out. If you move the polygon opening to another location where the spheres cannot get to it the spheres will probably be stopped correctly.

AZ
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: mondrasek on April 14, 2009, 03:15:21 PM
Here is a self starter, we had a discussion about it I believe a year ago..

There are more out there, I cannot explain this one, it is an unbalanced huge construction.

WM2D is calculating the effects of forces on each model piece one at a time.  The analysis is sequential and iterative.  So it looks at the initial conditions of part #1 and calculates where it should move to by the end of the selected time step and what speed and direction while be the result of this iteration.  It then looks at part #2 and does the same.  But what position of part #1 should influence the calculations on part #2?  The position and speed of part #1 at the beginning of the iteration or the one just calculated as the result of this iteration?  Neither.  The results need to be calculated simultaneously, and this the computer cannot do.  To get the best possible approximation you want the time step and integration error for the sim to be as small as possible.  As the time step and integration errors approach zero (get very very small) the sim should approach reality (in theory).

Look at the time step (Animation Step) and Integration Error in this sim.  They are at .25 s and 1.627 meters respectively.  The defaults for these values are .05 s and .010 meters.  So they have both been made purposely larger to introduce more error?  Of course the result is a poor approximation of reality.  Set them back to default or lower (better) and this accelerating wheel does not accelerate.

It is easy to cheat the software.  That is why I advise using the smallest time step and integration errors that you can stand while designing.  The closer you get to what appears to be a desired effect, the smaller you should make these numbers.  Big values are only useful for gross and quick approximations like testing two similar concepts (like small slot profile changes) to see quickly if one idea is better than another.

M.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 14, 2009, 03:16:46 PM
BTW: Whatever happened to Bob and his piston gravity wheel? That one looked really promising.

Was it/he buried?

Was it ever modeled?
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 14, 2009, 03:20:26 PM
Look at the time step (Animation Step) and Integration Error in this sim.  They are at .25 s and 1.627 meters respectively.  The defaults for these values are .05 s and .010 meters.  So they have both been made purposely larger to introduce more error?  Of course the result is a poor approximation of reality.  Set them back to default or lower (better) and this accelerating wheel does not accelerate.

Even better! See previous.

It is so easy to mis tweak, I think niente (author) may have hoaxed this particular model on purpose just to ruffle some feathers.....

The more tweakable things the better, but wm2d lacks a single real world switch which normalizes all variables to real world settings including air, gravity and integrator settings...
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 14, 2009, 03:40:48 PM
New simulation about the Abeling wheel from the
ab-az-cm-2.wm2d file.

I removed the motor and applied just a force onto the wheel for 400 frames to speed it up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rM8SmU9pjcI

But also this does not work.
Just elliptical pathes in a wheel do not work to get a gravity wheel working.

This animation has a force applied for the first 400 frames, to help speed it up.
After the 400 frames it must work by itsself and you see, how it slows down and then stops


I tried several of those designs, but it lacks the "extra" to give it additional force..

Same principal, little different look but that doesn't matter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSaKQEn0Wwc&feature=channel_page

The one i did found most promising was this one:

Notice how the ball fly's UP the ramp due to its own speed. On that moment the ball goes up the ramp, it is faster and detaches itself from the spoke..   So the wheel is not bothered by the ball in the upmovement.. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBygA2vOHx4&feature=channel
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 14, 2009, 03:41:13 PM
New simulation about the Abeling wheel from the
ab-az-cm-2.wm2d file.

I removed the motor and applied just a force onto the wheel for 400 frames to speed it up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rM8SmU9pjcI

But also this does not work.
Just elliptical pathes in a wheel do not work to get a gravity wheel working.

This animation has a force applied for the first 400 frames, to help speed it up.
After the 400 frames it must work by itsself and you see, how it slows down and then stops


I tried several of those designs, but it lacks the "extra" to give it additional force..

Same principal, little different look but that doesn't matter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSaKQEn0Wwc&feature=channel_page

The one i did found most promising was this one:

Notice how the ball fly's UP the ramp due to its own speed. On that moment the ball goes up the ramp, it is faster and detaches itself from the spoke..   So the wheel is not bothered by the ball in the upmovement.. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBygA2vOHx4&feature=channel
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: mindsweeper on April 14, 2009, 03:41:19 PM
Again the rigid joint problem.
I just fixed this using 2 pin joints.
Then it behaves normal.

Never use RIGID JOINTs in WM2D.

Stefan, that totally changed the way the forces work on the model. Canceling the desired effect of CF acting in the rear of the model. So it will not work that way, study the way the bar is attached and the forces that act. Placing the pin where you have just balances out the force.

EDIT: and if the rigid pin joint is a known bug I wonder why it has never been addressed by the software developers?
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: mondrasek on April 14, 2009, 03:53:09 PM
The more tweakable things the better, but wm2d lacks a single real world switch which normalizes all variables to real world settings including air, gravity and integrator settings...

Very true.  WM2D is just a tool.  For our purposes it must be used correctly.

The ability to lower Integration Error, Animation Step, Air Resistance, Friction, etc., is very useful when testing different configuration.  But in the end you need to keep your focus on the goal.  Do you want a simulation of something that will work when built in the real world, or just a neat trick? 

These are the reasons I have been trying to gently nudge the modelers to use the program correctly (as I know how) for the end purpose of an accurate sim of Abeling's device.  Suggestions like, model in the proper scale, and increase Integration Error, etc.

I work in robotics, where the motion is always an iterative process.  The controller calculates where each robot axis should be in the future after a given period of time (time step).  The controller then drives the motors with the appropriate current to try and get to the new position.  But before it gets there we are calculating the next point.  So we are never where we want to be and are always correcting our current positional error.  That is how the robot moves and is a very similar process to how the WM2D software must operate.  Our robots never follow exactly the perfect motion path that is programmed.  There is always a slight error, especially near fast sharp turns.  We can minimise this path deviation by shortening the time step (Integration Error, and for robots: which is limited by the controller CPU and amount of I/O you have in the system), or by slowing the robot down (Animation Step).

M.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 14, 2009, 04:00:28 PM
Talking about strange behaviour...  Why is this going the wrong side???

Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 14, 2009, 04:07:18 PM
@mondrasek,

How do you explain the rigid joint problem? Also, do you think parallel processing would improve matters and maybe somehow the object-oriented programming would be a palliative solution? Sorry to get into these software issues and detract from the discussion at hand but do you know what language was used to program this and any other details you've come across? Just curious.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: 3decimal14 on April 14, 2009, 04:15:57 PM
New simulation about the Abeling wheel from the
ab-az-cm-2.wm2d file.

I removed the motor and applied just a force onto the wheel for 400 frames to speed it up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rM8SmU9pjcI

But also this does not work.
Just elliptical pathes in a wheel do not work to get a gravity wheel working.

This animation has a force applied for the first 400 frames, to help speed it up.
After the 400 frames it must work by itsself and you see, how it slows down and then stops


Hi, don´t you need more than 2 balls/weights in the wheel simulation?
To me it looks difficult to get more weight on one side than the other.

Just my thoughts.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 14, 2009, 04:22:58 PM
Talking about strange behaviour...  Why is this going the wrong side???



Now, this is the winner so far.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: mondrasek on April 14, 2009, 04:30:08 PM
@mondrasek,

How do you explain the rigid joint problem? Also, do you think parallel processing would improve matters and maybe somehow the object-oriented programming would be a palliative solution? Sorry to get into these software issues and detract from the discussion at hand but do you know what language was used to program this and any other details you've come across? Just curious.

Stefan's revelation of the issues with rigid joints was news to me.  Thanks for the hint Stefan!  I haven't played around with it yet, but my guess is this:  In WM2D we are working with three degrees of freedom, linear translation in X, linear translation in Y, and rotation around Z.  With the rigid joint you constrain all three degrees of freedom at one location.  With a pin joint you constrain only the X and Y translation.  Now I believe you can calculate the X and Y translation within one cycle of an iteration.  But you would need a second cycle (different formula) to calculate the rotation.  So, which do you calculate first, and what position of the other (current or future) do you use when doing so?  Similar to a spring, you have two different equations to solve for the rigid joint, and each is dependant on the other.  So you must approximate one and induce extra error in the other.  Unless the time step and integration errors are small, this can cause an error larger than the scale of the models can handle and the sim to blow up.

I'm not a (current) computer programmer, so I don't know how this could be programmed other than the iterative method that is simplest to use that I would use if doing it by hand (unimaginable).  I am also just a casual user of the program and have no details about how it was written.

M.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 14, 2009, 04:35:28 PM
But, see, Stefan suggested to use double pin joint instead of rigid joint and that also constrains the three degrees of freedom while fixing the error.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 14, 2009, 04:50:51 PM
Oke, forget Abeling, i went back to my basic design,

Look at this one, i can bring back the ball up to a height, and i can lift a ball from that height over the middle point..     

Now find a way to combine it..  And at higher speeds it would be easier, then you can skip the low pickup

Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: mondrasek on April 14, 2009, 05:01:36 PM
But, see, Stefan suggested to use double pin joint instead of rigid joint and that also constrains the three degrees of freedom while fixing the error.

Think through the process of translating the object held by two pins.  You calculate the X and Y positional shift of one pin and its object.  And then the free rotation of the object around that pin.  But wait...  There is a second pin so there cannot be any free rotation.  Calculate the X and Y positional shift of the second pin and align the "rotation" around the first pin.  No extra error was induced.

Yes the two pins also constrain all three axis of freedom.  But it does it with several independant equations, not two interdependant ones (I think).

M.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: mindsweeper on April 14, 2009, 05:21:20 PM
Talking about strange behaviour...  Why is this going the wrong side???



The mass of poly 2 was incorrect, I set it to 6 and it worked as it should.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 14, 2009, 05:25:11 PM
Tnx, i repaired it myself also.

Here you can see the flying path of the ball...  I think this is the force we seek......

"may the force be with you"  ;D
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: hartiberlin on April 14, 2009, 06:52:04 PM
Talking about strange behaviour...  Why is this going the wrong side???


* KAD Wip.wm2d (50.92 KB - downloaded 3 times.)
* KAD Wip2.wm2d (28.66 KB - downloaded 2 times.)

Because you made the see-saw bar about 6.4 tons of weight.

Just change it to a real value of 1 to 10 Kg and it works
the way it should.

Watch out for the weights you are applying.
If you use a different tool other than WM2D to design your polygons and
things you have to edit out the weight in WM2D.

Hope this helps.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: mrsean2k on April 14, 2009, 07:16:36 PM
@mondrasek,

How do you explain the rigid joint problem? Also, do you think parallel processing would improve matters and maybe somehow the object-oriented programming would be a palliative solution? Sorry to get into these software issues and detract from the discussion at hand but do you know what language was used to program this and any other details you've come across? Just curious.

Excuse me for stepping in, but:

Object orientation will help only in that it provides a language in which concepts can be expressed and state capture in a relatively easy to maintain way. For some projects it is an excellent fit, reducing the apparent complexity and consequently the possibility that bugs are introduced. Although most implementations of OO incur an overhead when it comes to execution, this is usually more than made up for by the fact that better algorithms can be more elegantly expressed and developed. A better algorithm trumps shaving a few cycles off 99 times out of 100.

So there is nothing that makes OO intrinsically more accurate as a candidate for making simulations more accurate, other than the fact it can foster some good development practices compared to older methods.

Parallel processing is a bit of the same. Parallel processing improves accuracy only as a result of being able to execute the same algorithm more efficiently. In terms of your simulation application, you have the opportunity to decrease the interval and increase the number of iterations performed in a given time period, but other than that, no intrinsic advantage over a beefier single processor.

The nature of the problem really stems from the fact that computation is discrete and reality is continuous. It doesn't matter how brief the tick or short the distance you use when calculating the next frame of the simulation, it's a coarse approximation of what actually happens. The current speculation is that the ticks and lengths the universe operate on, the Planck Time and Planck Length, are 1.3546 * 10-43 sec and 4.0610 * 10-35 m respectively. Comparing the resolution of simulations to those two figures is like comparing the results of a commercial colour printer to a daisywheel, and that's vastly understating the case.

That's not to say that the simulation can't be good enough for your purposes, but unless the effect is pronounced and easily replicated, you won't know if it's a breakthrough or a rounding error.

Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: hartiberlin on April 14, 2009, 07:19:41 PM
Tnx, i repaired it myself also.

Here you can see the flying path of the ball...  I think this is the force we seek......

"may the force be with you"  ;D

Interesting design,
so you just want to pu the ball via the "flying" ramp into the height at 6 o´clock, so that it could be picked up by
the next lever arm ?
Please explain more in detail.
Many thanks.
P.S. For those who don´t have WM2D it would be good to also post a small screenshot at least.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: persume on April 14, 2009, 07:33:50 PM
@Stefan



I totally agree Abeling is hiding something, because at best you have a very low loss construction like one of the models I posted earlier. Not overunity. AZ

Maybe he has just made a mistake; isn't it possible that a free energy inventor might make a mistake?

I just love how some of you guys go to whatever lengths to justify your belief in free energy. Don't get me wrong, I am not negating the possibility of free energy, but I let the interest of it stand on its own. I find the need to justify it by coming up with new catch phrases like overunity, or retheorizing over and over again forces like gravity and comparing them to wind, or quoting some notible scientist who at one time may have considered perpetual motion ( what good thinker wouldn't have ) to be quite frankly - idiotic.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: hartiberlin on April 14, 2009, 07:37:04 PM
I just made a test with WM2D regarding the centrifugal forces.
I just took a 5 Kg weight and applied to it a "sloted" path.
The weight starts rolling down to the right side the slope down,
then turns inside the slot and comes back up the left slope.

If it gains energy by the centrifugal forces, it should go over the top and continue.

Well, it does it 4 or 5 times over the top and then the next time it does not take the top,
but goes the other way back.

So as potential energy is converted into kinetic energy, this is a balance and
it seems, the centrifugal forces do not put additional energy into the system.
Why it goes for the first 5 times over the top is probably a calculation error of WM2D, cause
no friction was applied.

Regards, Stefan.
Attached is also the WM2D file
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: mondrasek on April 14, 2009, 08:06:31 PM

Why it goes for the first 5 times over the top is probably a calculation error of WM2D, cause
no friction was applied.


Decrease the animation step to get more accurate results and it does not go over the top.

Centrifugal Force is not a true force.  It is the effect of changing the direction of travel of an object (that should go straight) into a circular path.  Changing the path of a weight into a circle requires and acceleration towards the axle.  CF is the equal and opposite acceleration that points away from the axle of a wheel.

When you spin a weight attached to a string around your head, you are applying a force by holding the string.  This force is equal and opposite to the fictional force called Centrifugal Force.  In truth you are providing an acceleration that bends the path of the weight on the end of the string into a circle.  If you let go of the string the weight will travel in a straight line as is the nature of objects.  At the moment of release, the fictional CF also disapears.

So it takes energy, or proper construction (a wheel) to create CF.  It is not a Force that we can use to extract energy, or so we are taught.

Not trying to be negative here, just offer the classical explanation for those who might wnat to read it.  I too look for the "imposible"  way to harvest Gravity and CF.

M.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: 0c on April 14, 2009, 08:40:13 PM
For some adventuresome WM2D user:

Create a 1 meter diameter wheel that has eight 1Kg steel balls/weights held inside at the periphery. Provide a ball escape mechanism for at least one ball which can be triggered to release the ball. Mount the wheel so the lowest portion is 1 meter from a perfectly elastic surface which is 90 degrees to the escape trajectory (you may need to try a couple runs to get the correct trajectory).

Now spin the wheel at 100 RPM and release one ball at the bottom (6:00 position) and see how high it bounces. Also note any changes to wheel rotation when the ball escapes. Now repeat the experiment at 200 RPM and note the difference.

The purpose of this experiment is to see how much energy (momentum) the ball acquires from the centrifugal force of the spinning wheel. We all know what the gravitational effects will be.

A few pages back, I described a system where the balls actually leave the wheel at the bottom and are recaptured at the top. In that concept, there are only weights on one side of the wheel, once it gets up to operating speed. This simple experiment should provide some information about weight and wheel behavior under these conditions, which might be useful for determining the feasibility of using a ball return mechanism external to the rotating device.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 14, 2009, 08:47:45 PM
For some adventuresome WM2D user:

Create a 1 meter diameter wheel that has eight 1Kg steel balls/weights held inside at the periphery. Provide a ball escape mechanism for at least one ball which can be triggered to release the ball. Mount the wheel so the lowest portion is 1 meter from a perfectly elastic surface which is 90 degrees to the escape trajectory (you may need to try a couple runs to get the correct trajectory).

Now spin the wheel at 100 RPM and release one ball at the bottom (6:00 position) and see how high it bounces. Also note any changes to wheel rotation when the ball escapes. Now repeat the experiment at 200 RPM and note the difference.

The purpose of this experiment is to see how much energy (momentum) the ball acquires from the centrifugal force of the spinning wheel. We all know what the gravitational effects will be.

A few pages back, I described a system where the balls actually leave the wheel at the bottom and are recaptured at the top. In that concept, there are only weights on one side of the wheel, once it gets up to operating speed. This simple experiment should provide some information about weight and wheel behavior under these conditions, which might be useful for determining the feasibility of using a ball return mechanism external to the rotating device.

Again.. That comes down to the same...  See here a ball leaving the wheel:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBygA2vOHx4&feature=channel_page

Although it happens on the inside, it still is disconnected from the wheel by the ramp. You can actually see it also flying away from the rod, so it's floating free for a short period and then rejoins the wheel at around 12 o clock.

I tried that in different setups.. But it will loose speed eventually.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: 0c on April 14, 2009, 09:01:08 PM
Again.. That comes down to the same...  See here a ball leaving the wheel:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBygA2vOHx4&feature=channel_page

Although it happens on the inside, it still is disconnected from the wheel by the ramp. You can actually see it also flying away from the rod, so it's floating free for a short period and then rejoins the wheel at around 12 o clock.

I tried that in different setups.. But it will loose speed eventually.

In your example, the ball/weight is still supported by the spokes of the wheel on the way up. I want to see how the ball and wheel behave if the ball is ejected at the bottom so there is no interaction with the wheel until it rejoins at the top. And is there a change in the ball's energy level if the wheel is rotating at 200 RPM vs 100 RPM.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: mondrasek on April 14, 2009, 09:07:00 PM
Now spin the wheel at 100 RPM and release one ball at the bottom (6:00 position) and see how high it bounces. Also note any changes to wheel rotation when the ball escapes. Now repeat the experiment at 200 RPM and note the difference.

The ball will not drop straight down if released at the 6 o'clock position.  At that position it is traveling parallel to the surface of the Earth (same direction as an arrow from 3 to 9 o'clock).  Release it there and it will now be able to be acted on by the acceleration of gravity and so its path will arc towards Earth.  If you speed up the wheel to 200 RPM you will be traveling twice as fast in the horizontal when you release at 6 o'clock.  So it will travel further out away from the wheel as it arcs downward due to gravity.

If you want the ball on a clockwise wheel to drop straight down, you must release it at 3 o'clock.  If it does go straight down it would also indicate that the Centrifugal Force disappeared the moment the ball was released as well.  Nice experiment for that purpose I suppose.

M.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 14, 2009, 09:07:41 PM
In your example, the ball/weight is still supported by the spokes of the wheel on the way up. I want to see how the ball and wheel behave if the ball is ejected at the bottom so there is no interaction with the wheel until it rejoins at the top. And is there a change in the ball's energy level if the wheel is rotating at 200 RPM vs 100 RPM.

The beam is the hollow droplet shaped curve, when you look carefully you will see that the ball leaves the beam due to a higher spead the ball gains from the curved blocker.  But feel free to test it yourself.

About 30 pages back i posted this one..  It has a start speed of 1 for half a second and after settling it will run between 1.22 and 0.88 quite a while. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqDWtxSMbCc&feature=channel_page
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 14, 2009, 09:12:43 PM
Here you can see what a dropping ball from 3 'o clock is capable of  (Without extra force or speed)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14mzbSkybvk&feature=channel_page
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 14, 2009, 09:20:13 PM
@mrsean2k,

When I mentioned parallel processing it was regarding @mondrasek’s remark that calculations are done sequentially, one element at a time. I was thinking maybe if these calculations are done in parallel that would avoid the out of sequence problem we were talking about – calculations done for an element when the conditions for the other elements have changed. Otherwise, in terms of accuracy you’re undoubtedly right. No wonder why difference equations are not exactly differential equations.

@mondrasek,

Probably saying that centrifugal force is not a true force is a bit confusing because the body does experience it. The emphasis should be on the fact which you clearly point out that it is a reaction to a force for which you have to spend energy to create. That is, centrifugal force cannot be used to create energy. On the contrary, energy is spent to have centrifugal force appear. This has to be understood well because it causes a lot of confusion and false expectations, which is evident even in the latest posts.

On the other hand, it is true that the centrifugal force may help in aligning the elements in a favorable way which would allow them to produce energy by some other route, if such route exists. That is, one may think, some energy (part of the previously produced such) is spent to align the elements properly so that further greater energy is produced. That’s, of course, easier said then done when continuous production of such excess energy is aimed at (discontinuously, the way to produce excess energy is already clear).

Maybe I should add, if a proper construction to produce excess energy continuously exists, it should be enough for the aligning the elements properly for its production. One doesn't need centrifugal force to do that alignment. So focusing on the centrifugal force doesn't help much, if at all, when continuous production of excess energy is the goal.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 14, 2009, 09:23:56 PM
So the wheel is not bothered by the ball in the upmovement.. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBygA2vOHx4&feature=channel

That is just what Abeling mentions in the patent. Effortless ascend of the weights.

This is worth taking another look at for sure... Maybe not restricting the ball when it leaves the ramp...

On thing is for sure, "scissoring it" or squeezing it like a cherry pit (no pun intended) between thumb and finger fails miserable due to the friction generated.

No friction - no real acceleration. The more friction the more loss.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 14, 2009, 09:28:54 PM
Talking about strange behaviour...  Why is this going the wrong side???

Same thing, the mass of the wedge is too small. wm2d has a problem with that for some reason.

Set the mass to one KG and it works fine
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 14, 2009, 09:29:27 PM


This is worth taking another look at for sure... Maybe not restricting the ball when it leaves the ramp...



Grinzz...  That is the basic of the KAD system al along..  Those are from the drawings i started with.. , my first prototype i built with my daughter from lego and an old harddisk and a few rails was built on this principle  ( didn't work, in case you're wondering)   ;D It seems that we do not only play with circles, whe also a walking around in them  :o
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: mondrasek on April 14, 2009, 09:35:42 PM
Probably saying that centrifugal force is not a true force is a bit confusing because the body does experience it.

I'm not thrilled with calling CF "not a true force", but I have seen it expressed as that, or as a "fictional force".

Lets try this example.  You are driving straight in your car.  If we remove all friction you will continue in a straight line forever.  When you initiate a turn by turning the steering wheel, you feel CF, right?  It pushes you away from the way you want to turn.  But what is really happening is your body is trying to continue in a straight line.  There is no force pushing on you.  So CF is fictitious.  What you notice is the change in direction of your reference frame which is the car.  It turns due to a force, but your body does not want to.  What you are experiencing is a resistance to a change in direction due to a force.

I agree it is very confusing to use those terms.  But it might also be more confusing for the term Centrifugal Force to have ever been used in the first place.  Maybe it should have been the Centrifugal Sensation?

M.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 14, 2009, 09:38:06 PM
The mass of poly 2 was incorrect, I set it to 6 and it worked as it should.

Not incorrect, but just very very small because it was a really thin body.

Really small masses or forces are displayed in scientific notation for example 0.00000001 KG

would be displayed by wm2d as: 1.0e-8 kg
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 14, 2009, 09:41:30 PM
Tnx, i repaired it myself also.

Here you can see the flying path of the ball...  I think this is the force we seek......

"may the force be with you"  ;D

But... the force to bring up a ball via a ramp will never be enough to bring it up the the same level it started on right?
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 14, 2009, 09:41:36 PM
Yeah, that's how it's usually presented in the standard texts, as not being a true force and that I don't think is correct. The correct way to express it is exactly the way you've explained it -- it's a reaction (a true force) to the force you apply, spending energy for that, to change the direction of motion from linear. Therefore, energy cannot be "extracted" by using centrifugal force.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: mondrasek on April 14, 2009, 09:46:45 PM
Not incorrect, but just very very small because it was a really thin body.

Really small masses or forces are displayed in scientific notation for example 0.00000001 KG

would be displayed by wm2d as: 1.0e-8 kg

We might need to be conscious of how many significant digits WM2D maintains.  If it is rounding or truncating after, say, 8 digits, having elements with very large and very tiny property values in the same sim might result in situations where a calculation is performed that exceeds this limitation.  Certain physics predictions might actually become truncated in effect.  One way to prevent this problem (if it exists) is to keep all properties in the same logical range, say like from .0001 up to 9999.

Just a thought.

M.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 14, 2009, 09:48:35 PM
Grinzz...  That is the basic of the KAD system al along..  Those are from the drawings i started with.. , my first prototype i built with my daughter from lego and an old harddisk and a few rails was built on this principle  ( didn't work, in case you're wondering)   ;D It seems that we do not only play with circles, whe also a walking around in them  :o

Good ideas take a while to sink in, especialy for bubble heads like me

Thanks for insisting  ;D
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 14, 2009, 09:58:17 PM
We might need to be conscious of how many significant digits WM2D maintains.  If it is rounding or truncating after, say, 8 digits, having elements with very large and very tiny property values in the same sim might result in situations where a calculation is performed that exceeds this limitation.  Certain physics predictions might actually become truncated in effect.  One way to prevent this problem (if it exists) is to keep all properties in the same logical range, say like from .0001 up to 9999.

Just a thought.

M.

I think it does not truncate but switches to scientific notation for anything with more than three digits after the decimal point..

The bar in the second animation is shown to have a mass of 6.408e+004 or 6.4080 KG or 6408 grams
Then again, it should just have displayed 6.408 kg If I type in just that 6.408 it switches from Standard to custom material. Maybe it does round up to four digits... Who knows?

You know, there is also a switch in there under preferences:

"Prevent model from running faster than realtime" default:on

Hmmmm
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: fletcher on April 14, 2009, 10:09:10 PM
Stefan et al .. IME rigid joints in WM are fine, providing you choose "measurable" rather than "optimised" in the properties box [double click on the joint or go to menu] - ATEOTD WM is a good tool to aid design & help extrapolate likely behaviour - it does not completely replace physical builds [the real simulation & benchmark] or critical thinking, but it can ease the experimenters burden somewhat - in fact quite a lot IMO.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: mondrasek on April 14, 2009, 10:19:22 PM
I think it does not truncate but switches to scientific notation for anything with more than three digits after the decimal point..

Could be, but what if it does truncate?  If it is just keeping the four significant digits that are shown (truncating any further digits calculated) then using very large and small numbers together will mean that the small may have zero effect on the large.  Not a small effect as would be correct, but zero.

This may or may not be something to watch out for.  But when you look at the mass of the 320 M diameter wheel and compare that to the mass of the weight balls in some of the earlier sims and you may see the concern.  Keeping everything in the same logical range only helps to avoid this possible issue.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 14, 2009, 10:21:02 PM
Stefan et al .. IME rigid joints in WM are fine, providing you choose "measurable" rather than "optimised" in the properties box [double click on the joint or go to menu] - ATEOTD WM is a good tool to aid design & help extrapolate likely behaviour - it does not completely replace physical builds [the real simulation & benchmark] or critical thinking, but it can ease the experimenters burden somewhat - in fact quite a lot IMO.

Correct. That fixes the problem. I tried it on the several questionable designs. What is this "optimized" anyway? Funny, this change seemed to uncheck the "Prevent the model from running faster than real-time" in Preferences.
Title: REPLY FROM DUTCH GOVERNMENT INFO SERVICE
Post by: AquariuZ on April 14, 2009, 10:22:43 PM
Uw e-mailkenmerk is 235676.
Geachte heer,

Naar aanleiding van uw e-mail, waarin u vraagt of Abeling Beheer B.V. toestemming heeft van het ministerie van VROM voor de bouw van Gewicht Energie Centrales in Nederland, kunnen wij u als volgt informeren. 

Helaas kunnen wij uw vraag niet beantwoorden. Uw e-mail hebben wij daarom voor verdere beantwoording doorgestuurd naar het ministerie van VROM. Om uw vraag goed te kunnen beantwoorden, is het mogelijk dat de beantwoordingtermijn langer is dan de eerder aangegeven twee werkdagen.

 

Wij hopen dat u hier begrip voor heeft.

 
Met vriendelijke groet,

 
Danny Huf

Publieksvoorlichter Postbus 51 Informatiedienst



TRANSLATION

   
Your e-mail reference is 235676.
Sir,

Further to your e-mail, in which you asked whether Abeling Beheer BV has obtained permission of the Ministry of VROM for the construction of Weight Power Plants in the Netherlands, we can inform you as follows.

Unfortunately we can not answer your question. Your e-mail has been forwarded to the Ministry of VROM for further response .It may be possible that the response time is longer than the regular two days.

We hope for your understanding.

 
Best regards,


Danny Huf

Public Information Officer PO Box 51


Waiting then. (not holding breath)
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 14, 2009, 10:26:34 PM
Could be, but what if it does truncate?  If it is just keeping the four significant digits that are shown (truncating any further digits calculated) then using very large and small numbers together will mean that the small may have zero effect on the large.  Not a small effect as would be correct, but zero.

This may or may not be something to watch out for.  But when you look at the mass of the 320 M diameter wheel and compare that to the mass of the weight balls in some of the earlier sims and you may see the concern.  Keeping everything in the same logical range only helps to avoid this possible issue.

You are right ofcourse, Cheryman is still punching out 300 meter diameter wheels.

That would draw some attention from the neighbours, huh.
Title: Re: REPLY FROM DUTCH GOVERNMENT INFO SERVICE
Post by: Cherryman on April 14, 2009, 10:27:23 PM
Uw e-mailkenmerk is 235676.
Geachte heer,

Naar aanleiding van uw e-mail, waarin u vraagt of Abeling Beheer B.V. toestemming heeft van het ministerie van VROM voor de bouw van Gewicht Energie Centrales in Nederland, kunnen wij u als volgt informeren. 

Helaas kunnen wij uw vraag niet beantwoorden. Uw e-mail hebben wij daarom voor verdere beantwoording doorgestuurd naar het ministerie van VROM. Om uw vraag goed te kunnen beantwoorden, is het mogelijk dat de beantwoordingtermijn langer is dan de eerder aangegeven twee werkdagen.

 

Wij hopen dat u hier begrip voor heeft.

 
Met vriendelijke groet,

 
Danny Huf

Publieksvoorlichter Postbus 51 Informatiedienst



TRANSLATION

   
Your e-mail reference is 235676.
Dear mr,

Further to your e-mail, in which you asked whether Abeling Beheer BV has obtained permission of the Ministry of VROM for the construction of Weight Power Plants in the Netherlands, we can inform you as follows.

Unfortunately we can not answer your question. Your e-mail has been forwarded to the Ministry of VROM for further response .It may be possible that the response time is longer than the regular two days.

We hope for your understanding.

 
Best regards,


Danny Huf

Public Information Officer PO Box 51


Waiting then. (not holding breath)

Good work!

And the story continues...    It's becoming a "thriller"   ;D

Now hope you did not wake up a sleepy government official, who suddenly sees that a lower offical has granded the permission...  now he gets youre request... realisez he impact and calls the MIB..  Poor Sjack..   :o

 ;D
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 14, 2009, 10:30:07 PM
You are right ofcourse, Cheryman is still punching out 300 meter diameter wheels.

That would draw some attention from the neighbours, huh.

Size does matter!   ;D

But i will try to think of rescaling..  The strange thing is that i design in .mm , so somewhere in the conversion from Rhino to DXF there must be an upscaling..

My workflow does'n t like scaling. I like the design in Rhino to be an exact copy of the Design in WM2D, so i can adjust or add easaly and quickly new parts.

But for the sake of free energie i will try to not forget scaling.   

Title: Re: REPLY FROM DUTCH GOVERNMENT INFO SERVICE
Post by: spinner on April 14, 2009, 10:32:54 PM
TRANSLATION   
Your e-mail reference is 235676.
Sir,

Further to your e-mail, in which you asked whether Abeling Beheer BV has obtained permission of the Ministry of VROM for the construction of Weight Power Plants in the Netherlands, we can inform you as follows.

Unfortunately we can not answer your question. Your e-mail has been forwarded to the Ministry of VROM for further response .It may be possible that the response time is longer than the regular two days.

We hope for your understanding.

 Best regards,

Danny Huf

Public Information Officer PO Box 51


Waiting then. (not holding breath)

Thanks for your translation!

I'm not holding my breath, either.  :(  It seems that at least the guy which answered your e-mail doesn't know anything about the Abeling ...

Cheers!
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: rlortie on April 14, 2009, 10:39:28 PM
I'm not thrilled with calling CF "not a true force", but I have seen it expressed as that, or as a "fictional force".

Lets try this example.  You are driving straight in your car.  If we remove all friction you will continue in a straight line forever.  When you initiate a turn by turning the steering wheel, you feel CF, right?  It pushes you away from the way you want to turn.  But what is really happening is your body is trying to continue in a straight line.  There is no force pushing on you.  So CF is fictitious.  What you notice is the change in direction of your reference frame which is the car.  It turns due to a force, but your body does not want to.  What you are experiencing is a resistance to a change in direction due to a force.

I agree it is very confusing to use those terms.  But it might also be more confusing for the term Centrifugal Force to have ever been used in the first place.  Maybe it should have been the Centrifugal Sensation?

I am from the old school!  CF a fictional force and I shall attempt my explanation as to IMO.

When you are traveling in a straight line, kinetic induced inertia tend to keep the trajectory in a straight path. When you turn the wheel, you are not being "pushed" by CF , but rather pulled by inertia wishing you to stay on a straight path.

Shoot an arrow straight up, ask yourself what roll does CF portray when the arrow runs out of inertia? There is no CF, the arrow stops and then starts it path back to the ground.

A lot of researchers have tried to utilize CF as a means to accelerate a gravity driven device. Plain and simply put there is no CF without inertial acceleration, and a physical CpF containment to keep it radial. 

Ralph Lortie
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: mondrasek on April 14, 2009, 10:53:51 PM
But i will try to think of rescaling..  The strange thing is that i design in .mm , so somewhere in the conversion from Rhino to DXF there must be an upscaling..
Actually, Rhino just uses the common drafting base unit of 1 being 1 mm.  WM2D uses the base unit of physics of 1 being 1 meter.  No units are passed between the two programs, just the value 1.  They both assign their own units.  Been a problem for CAD guys for years, but mostly between 1 being 1mm and 1 being 1 inch.
My workflow does'n t like scaling. I like the design in Rhino to be an exact copy of the Design in WM2D, so i can adjust or add easaly and quickly new parts.
It sucks!  Making all of your desired changes in CAD, scaling, and then importing takes patience and practice.  If you export out of WM2D to transfer changes from there back to CAD you may loose precision (I did going to ACAD).

I keep one master CAD file.  When I make a change, I save the whole, and then erase everything but the changes, and save again as a temp file.  I then import just the temp file items into WM2D.  If I make a change in WM2D that I want to keep I export,  and use that file as a reference to update my master CAD, but I always redraw in CAD, not just accept the WM2D geometry as part of the CAD.

You can always scale your Rhino back up and down by .001 and 1000 as many times as you want and it does not degrade the precision.  Just another step or three.

I'm sure others have better ways and you will of course find your own.

M.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: 0c on April 14, 2009, 11:18:41 PM
The ball will not drop straight down if released at the 6 o'clock position.  At that position it is traveling parallel to the surface of the Earth (same direction as an arrow from 3 to 9 o'clock).  Release it there and it will now be able to be acted on by the acceleration of gravity and so its path will arc towards Earth.  If you speed up the wheel to 200 RPM you will be traveling twice as fast in the horizontal when you release at 6 o'clock.  So it will travel further out away from the wheel as it arcs downward due to gravity.

If you want the ball on a clockwise wheel to drop straight down, you must release it at 3 o'clock.  If it does go straight down it would also indicate that the Centrifugal Force disappeared the moment the ball was released as well.  Nice experiment for that purpose I suppose.

M.

I didn't claim the ball would drop straight down. Does the ball exit with enough energy that it can be returned to the top of the wheel? If so we can constantly have weights on one side of the wheel and not on the other side. See how that ball exits at 100 RPM. Can it be returned to the top through some arrangement of chutes? or spings? or teeter totters? How about at 200 RPM?

Just humor me.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: fletcher on April 15, 2009, 12:17:52 AM
Correct. That fixes the problem. I tried it on the several questionable designs. What is this "optimized" anyway? Funny, this change seemed to uncheck the "Prevent the model from running faster than real-time" in Preferences.

Can't help you there - just a novice user - some suggestions about other concerns though - I select 4 decimal places in >view>numbers & units - any part not essential to the operation or investigation I make transparent [>window>appearance>pattern>no] & in properties give it a tiny value of 0.0001 units [whatever units you are using] - then you can go to >view>system center of mass [make other things transparent to see if required] - then using the zoom function you can watch a simplified version of how the constituent parts that have mass & inertia interact & affect the torque etc, & of course, where the system center of mass is in relation to the center of rotation at all times - disregard if this is redundant information.

Keeps things simple, clean & tidy, IMO.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 15, 2009, 12:47:08 AM
Can't help you there - just a novice user - some suggestions about other concerns though - I select 4 decimal places in >view>numbers & units - any part not essential to the operation or investigation I make transparent [>window>appearance>pattern>no] & in properties give it a tiny value of 0.0001 units [whatever units you are using] - then you can go to >view>system center of mass [make other things transparent to see if required] - then using the zoom function you can watch a simplified version of how the constituent parts that have mass & inertia interact & affect the torque etc, & of course, where the system center of mass is in relation to the center of rotation at all times - disregard if this is redundant information.

Keeps things simple, clean & tidy, IMO.

Thanks a lot. Very useful suggestions. As for "novice user", you can't beat me to that. It's my third or fourth day using this. lol.

Now, having a slight idea as to the workings of this useful (?) engineering tool wm2d, I'm finding that the greatest challenge is the drawing of the intricate parts of Abeling's design. Well, trying to do it in AutoCAD but, boy, that ain't easy for someone like me who has never worked with it. It isn't at all straightforward, let alone intuitive. And you have to click three times more for the same thing you'd do in other drawing programs with ease. Well, I guess the usefulness of the dxf files for a direct CNC manufacturing is the price for studying this cumbersome thing (or the other way round ... whatever).
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: gyulasun on April 15, 2009, 12:53:49 AM

Hans,

Do you have any of Constantinesco's patents. Would be interesting to take a look.


Omnibus,

I recall my earlier reply in another thread where Constantinesco's patents granted before 1922-23 era were also asked for, here it is:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3354.msg165174#msg165174

And here is a link to all his patents available at the European Patent Office:

http://v3.espacenet.com/searchResults?locale=en_EP&ST=quick&IA=Constantinesco&compact=false&DB=EPODOC

He had over 300 different patents,  maybe Hans could be of help on pointing to some,  where either the Milkovic setup or the wheel discussed here are in same way involved.  I simply have no time to wade through the 300 patents.

rgds, Gyula
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 15, 2009, 12:56:38 AM
Does anyone know if there is a program like WM2D that can handle 3D?

WM3D  would be nice. i have a new idea.. and i cannot simulate this in 2d i guess..

Anyway does there is a 3D program with similar features around? 
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: fletcher on April 15, 2009, 01:06:10 AM
Omnibus .. I have a friend who is very experienced in using wm & he's given me a few tips over the years, for ease of management & reliability - one of the things he does is to [as broli & others have suggested] is reduce the iteration factor down as low as bareable & up the calculation accuracy as high as your patience will allow [approx 200-250 frames is a start] - also if you have the message "inconsistent physical constraints" occurring then it usually means that two parts are overlapping - the brief explanation is that no two parts can physically exists in the same space so you get erroneous energy entering the program pushing them apart - take care with the placement of parts by using extreme zoom if you have to.

He also prefers to import odd or complex shapes etc from autocad etc [dxf files etc] rather than build them with the polygon function - I don't use other programs & import but I see a lot here do - he also cross checks results that seem unusual by driving the wm sim via an excel spreadsheet for inputs, as a cross reference - that is, if you want to bother or you think there might be something fishy going on.

His one mantra to me has always been SIMPLIFY, SIMPLIFY, SIMPLIFY - cuts down opportunities for errors & reduces calculation time - often there are multiple ways to simulate the same thing, some less complex than others - if they all give similar results then the reliability goes up, IMO.

If I remember anything else of relevance I'll mention it !
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 15, 2009, 01:07:33 AM
Now, @Cherryman, you're really sinking into this which is getting to be frightening. The MiB's are really gonna get you this time. lol.

Listen, let's first "replicate" Abeling's patent as close as possible. I'm way off at the beginning of the AutoCAD learning curve, so won't be of any help any time soon. Can you draw the wheel exactly as it is in the patent and then affix it to the barrier of your device EF2000.wm2d, scaled down to 1m diameter? That'll be a good start. No motor, please.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 15, 2009, 01:12:34 AM
Omnibus,

I recall my earlier reply in another thread where Constantinesco's patents granted before 1922-23 era were also asked for, here it is:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3354.msg165174#msg165174

And here is a link to all his patents available at the European Patent Office:

http://v3.espacenet.com/searchResults?locale=en_EP&ST=quick&IA=Constantinesco&compact=false&DB=EPODOC

He had over 300 different patents,  maybe Hans could be of help on pointing to some,  where either the Milkovic setup or the wheel discussed here are in same way involved.  I simply have no time to wade through the 300 patents.

rgds, Gyula

Thanks Gyula. Hans just sent me Constantinesco's patents. Clearly, however, I'm more interested in the discussion at hand so I'll postpone for now looking into them. Anyway, if what we're discussing is the real thing then it will be a moot point discussing patents such as those of Constantinesco anyway.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 15, 2009, 01:17:11 AM
@fletcher,

Quote
reduce the iteration factor down as low as bareable & up the calculation accuracy as high as your patience will allow [approx 200-250 frames is a start]

Where do you actually click to do that, especially to control the number of frames? Also where are the data located to export them into Excel?
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 15, 2009, 01:18:50 AM
Now, @Cherryman, you're really sinking into this which is getting to be frightening. The MiB's are really gonna get you this time. lol.

Listen, let's first "replicate" Abeling's patent as close as possible. I'm way off at the beginning of the AutoCAD learning curve, so won't be of any help any time soon. Can you draw the wheel exactly as it is in the patent and then affix it to the barrier of your device EF2000.wm2d? That'll be a good start.

I have seen so may things come by , you will have to show me again wich of Abelings drawing you mean (He ahas a few different ones i belive?) And I will have to look if i can still find (reproduce) the EF2000 swtup.. I do so many things.. it's getting a bit disorganised.

I will see what i can do.

I don't like replication, because if the clue is there then others will notice, so i follow my own path. Sure sometimes i see things from other designs wich are usefull, but i don't really study the designs, i simply look at them and decide on instinct if it has something or not.

When creating them myself ofcourse there will be influence from what i have seen from others, but by re-inventing it myself i think i might find different approaches or angles.. and i'm stubbern!  ;D

Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: fletcher on April 15, 2009, 01:37:38 AM
@fletcher,

Where do you actually click to do that, especially to control the number of frames? Also where are the data located to export them into Excel?

<File>Import/Export     .....    <World>Accuracy>More Choices

Often if we have something of interest we build a physical model & then back engineer the sim to the same dimensions & mass values etc [or as close as reasonable] - then we adjust pin frictions etc until we get a close alignment between real & predictive sim behaviour, as a further cross reference for reliability - so far the behaviour always lines up but I put that down to his skill  ;D   !
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 15, 2009, 01:58:00 AM
@Cherryman,

Well, it's usual patentees to hide some crucial aspects of the device or the method so that they can control further negotiations through trade secrets. I don't think this case is any different. It's worth I think for the time being to have the device "replicated" in wm2d as close to the patent as possible. See attached Fig.2 from Abeling's patent and the two examples of wm2d (especially one of them) closest to the patent.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 15, 2009, 02:10:59 AM
Okey, so you want this design with the blocks from EF2000 , i will see what i can do....

Here is a teaser to keep your mind bussy in the meantime:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPgezU4ql58&feature=channel_page
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: broli on April 15, 2009, 02:21:07 AM
If you do some force analysis you can get an idea why these ramp setups won't work. That patent is a joke. Any design that uses a ramp now is patent infringement, that's how vague his patent is and I'm pretty sure is deliberate.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 15, 2009, 02:39:04 AM
@Cherryman,

Well, it's usual patentees to hide some crucial aspects of the device or the method so that they can control further negotiations through trade secrets. I don't think this case is any different. It's worth I think for the time being to have the device "replicated" in wm2d as close to the patent as possible. See attached Fig.2 from Abeling's patent and the two examples of wm2d (especially one of them) closest to the patent.

Well Omnibus, here is an almost exact copy (I used the original patent drawing as an underlay) as you requested... 

But i warn you... the design doesn't make any sence!

Anyway, you will have to make the restrains yourself, that is a good exercise  ;D
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 15, 2009, 02:41:24 AM
If you do some force analysis you can get an idea why these ramp setups won't work. That patent is a joke. Any design that uses a ramp now is patent infringement, that's how vague his patent is and I'm pretty sure is deliberate.

I Think he does not have a working model yet, he just thinks the rampo idear might work, asked for a patent and is facing now the same problems as we do..  With the exception that he has some investors behind it...

( Because he doesn't like publicity and doesn't want any money, i do believe that he himself is thinking it will work...  and who knows..  It might work.. But not from those patent drawings)
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 15, 2009, 02:57:30 AM
Thanks @Cherryman. That's a good start.

Now that I looked at it I see you've made the rotor consisting of two parts so the rotor as a whole isn't one polygon but two. How do you merge these two parts into one polygon? I've had that problem before but the form was much simpler and I could use the Polygon tool and walk around the contour by hand. Now here the problem is more complex. Is there a way to merge these two polygons in WM2D or I should export it into AutoCAD and try to do it there (have no idea how).

Also, the scaling down from the current 140m has to be done too. That I already seem to have the grasp for in AutoCAD. The merging of polygons, however, is a persistent problem.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 15, 2009, 03:27:43 AM
Thanks @Cherryman. That's a good start.

Now that I looked at it I see you've made the rotor consisting of two parts so the rotor as a whole isn't one polygon but two. How do you merge these two parts into one polygon? I've had that problem before but the form was much simpler and I could use the Polygon tool and walk around the contour by hand. Now here the problem is more complex. Is there a way to merge these two polygons in WM2D or I should export it into AutoCAD and try to do it there (have no idea how).

Also, the scaling down from the current 140m has to be done too. That I already seem to have the grasp for in AutoCAD. The merging of polygons, however, is a persistent problem.

You do not need to merge the polygons, because you then will not get any balls inside (At least i don't know how to do that in WM2D, Just "pinpoint" them both on the same background circel. 
Scaling.. hmm forgot again. Well as you have autocad. Go in WM2D to file: Export and then select as filetype .dxf  Then you can import it in autocad and change anything you want and export it back again.

Going to sleep now, good luck.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: LarryC on April 15, 2009, 04:31:08 AM
Centrifugal sling slam force versus Centrifugal force:


Bob Kostoff stated:

Once the weights are past the ballance point they accelerate and generate many times their weight that creats the the energy needed.


Sjack stated:

In the topleft of the system the weight is accelerated (like with shot put). The weight is moving faster than the system, and as the system catches the weight it is propelled forward.


In my post at http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=2326.msg153063#msg153063, I showed the actual force difference in a physical testbed between a CF sling slam force and CF force at the same distance from center:

With 2.7 lbs for each weight box:
 
CF slam 15 10 lbs/ounces
CF static  5 5 lbs/ounces
 

With 4.7 lbs for each weight box:
 
CF slam 25 4 lbs/ounces
CF static  7 3 lbs/ounces



I then asked if any WM2D user could replicate to see how close it can come to real world testing.
No response, just a ton more WM2D issues.

Please don't respond with anymore CF force definitions as they are all well known including the formulas by anybody with a physics book or Google ability. CF sling slam force calculations are not, so can WM2D do them or not?


Bottom line, if WM2D cannot do CF sling slam force calculations then it will not be able to reproduce Sjack's gravity machine performance.


Regards, Larry

 

 

Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 15, 2009, 05:05:47 AM
@LarryC,

As was already explained, that additional force could not have come from the centrifugal force (slim slam, static or whatever you wanna call it). In fact, if true that there's such difference, it has nothing to do with the centrifugal force which needs energy to be spent for its appearance rather than energy release. Reading standard sources and sources from net search engines is good but isn't enough. One thing is to read a definition quite another is to actually understand it.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: LarryC on April 15, 2009, 06:10:10 AM
@LarryC,

As was already explained, that additional force could not have come from the centrifugal force (slim slam, static or whatever you wanna call it). In fact, if true that there's such difference, it has nothing to do with the centrifugal force which needs energy to be spent for its appearance rather than energy release. Reading standard sources and sources from net search engines is good but isn't enough. One thing is to read a definition quite another is to actually understand it.

Let me get this straight. The statements of the main two inventors about CF slam energy should be ignored as it was already explained better by who???

Also, you are saying I don't understand my UNIVERSITY PHYSICS book Sixth edition Fig 5-12 page 98 about centrifugal force. I hope they don't take my degree away based on your flimsy word.

Back to the original question in spite of your obvious missdirection attempts. Can you please give me an answer on my last WM2D question?

Regards, Larry
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 15, 2009, 06:21:11 AM
Larry may have a point. I just found something which can be replicated in wm2d (hope it is not an error) and may very well be Abelings trick.

Keywords acceleration AND spinning weights which hit a constraint (carrier) at a certain angle of attack generates a "jolt". Model tomorrow, looking promising. I´m off as it is 06:20 and work soon.

Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 15, 2009, 06:28:46 AM
@LarryC,

Like I said, wm2d won't prove that energy can be extracted from a centrifugal force, no matter how you prefer to qualify it. Therefore, it's a useless exercise to experiment on that even virtually, using wm2d. Also, the fact that you cite a standard textbook, even if you cite the exact edition and page is no proof that you have actually understood the concept. The fact that you're continuing to ask the centrifugal force to be studied as the source of energy proves that you haven't. The statements of the main two inventors about CF slam energy should also be ignored.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 15, 2009, 06:29:32 AM
Larry may have a point. I just found something which can be replicated in wm2d (hope it is not an error) and may very well be Abelings trick.

Keywords acceleration AND spinning weights which hit a constraint (carrier) at a certain angle of attack generates a "jolt". Model tomorrow, looking promising. I´m off as it is 06:20 and work soon.



Make no mistake, Larry doesn't have a point.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: rlortie on April 15, 2009, 06:56:22 AM
Please do not stop the merry-go-round! I am an old man an require the assistance of centrifugal force to disembark.  I will pay you back later  ;D

Is this a thread on Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel or "How to simulate CF in WM2D??? May I suggest you use the acronym "wm2d' for Wood Metal & 2 Days, I am sure you will find that CF will not sustain the design in question.   

Ralph
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Grimer on April 15, 2009, 09:43:27 AM
The Abeling Wheel works.

The clue as to why and how is in Figure 6 of the patent.

The Bessler wheel also worked.

The clue is in that quote that gets bandied about on the Bessler forum.

Ezechiel  1:16. And the appearance of the wheels, and the work of them was like
the appearance of the sea:  and the four had all one likeness:  and their
appearance and their work was as it were a wheel in the midst of a
wheel.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 15, 2009, 11:22:31 AM
Here is the model I referred to last night. I just made it pretty.

Regular scale, all real world parameters and accuracy active as far as I can tell.

Imagine a weight receiving spin because it is pulled by gravity along a ramp. It hits a barrier at an angle and transfers the spin to that barrier. Experiment by turning the spoke more and more parallel to the ramp in small increments and watch V0 for the barrier. Pause directly after hit to see full translation of spin. At a certain angle, a significant "jolt" is given to the barrier, which is disproportionate to the momentum of the dumbbell axle.

A hint: the optimal strike angle seems to be near 0.579 rad for the barrier (resulting in V0 = -4.256)

If this is not a bug in wm2d this may be where the extra "energy" comes from: the translation of spin via a specific angle of attack. I am currently trying to build this into another model to show acceleration of the barrier.

Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 15, 2009, 11:26:52 AM
Here is the model I referred to last night. I just made it pretty.

Regular scale, all real world parameters and accuracy active as far as I can tell.

Imagine a weight receiving spin because it is pulled by gravity along a ramp. It hits a barrier at an angle and transfers the spin to that barrier. Experiment by turning the spoke more and more parallel to the ramp in small increments and watch V0 for the barrier. Pause directly after hit to see full translation of spin. At a certain angle, a significant "jolt" is given to the barrier, which is disproportionate to the momentum of the dumbbell axle.

A hint: the optimal strike angle seems to be near 0.600 rad for the barrier

If this is not a bug in wm2d this may be where the extra "energy" comes from: the translation of spin via a specific angle of attack. I am currently trying to build this into another model to show acceleration of the barrier.



It looks good Aquariuz, but where or how is the weight lifted back up again?
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: broli on April 15, 2009, 11:57:13 AM
READ THIS FIRST BEFORE RUNNING MODEL

AquariuZ, this is interesting. I have been quiet about this but I have been experimenting with this kind of systems. The model below is a  lever with two weights. One weight is further than the center, the one closer to the center is restricted only to move up and down AND can slide back and forth in the direction of the lever. The right model on the other hand has no vertical restriction so the weight can only move back and forth along the lever.

The interesting thing and what force analysis shows is that when restricted like that there's a much larger torque that when you just pretend to calculate the weight at  certain distance from the center. First of all this is the big mistake people make with these rail/ramp designs. But on the other hand how can this be exploited and this is what I'm trying to figure out. Mainly

Quote
Johann E. E. Bessler:

"A great craftsman would be that man who can 'lightly' cause a heavy weight to fly upwards! Who can make a pound-weight rise as 4 ounces fall, or 4 pounds rise as 16 ounces fall. If he can sort that out, the motion will perpetuate itself. But if he can't, then his hard work shall be all in vain."

In the below wm2d file I challenge you to predict first what would happen to the left model before hitting the run button. Both masses are equal and the pivot point is closer to one so you should use your lever logic but then also be amazed to what really happens.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 15, 2009, 12:07:35 PM
Well that did not take long.

Using one of Cherrymans wheels here another example of a translation of spin onto the wheel under a certain angle.

Optimal position of the wheel in this configuration is around 0 = 0.100 rad which gives a (whopping) jolt of -0.228 rad/s to the wheel.

Again, real world params active. NOT TO SCALE.

Bug or not, with this I can build an accelerating wheel. I will build one now with a three meter wheel.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 15, 2009, 12:50:29 PM
Dont rush cherryman
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 15, 2009, 12:57:20 PM
Dont rush cherryman

With what?

Grinzz...  Well I'm working on two things at the same time...  Not good, i should focus on one.  I had a taught last night about those dumbells (bars) maybe they are not aligned and not only uses as shifting balance but also at the same time as there own lever. But that's becoming difficult 3D Stuff

The other project i post now.. It is not finished, but you cab see the idea behind it. The trick is a steady feedding, and more balls (weights) has to be weighting in a line to keep the feeding on a regular timing.

File attached  (Not working yet, just the concept)
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 15, 2009, 12:58:44 PM
And Aquarius, i see the force you're setup generates.. But still don't understand how you get the ball back up..  Am I missing something here?  ???
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 15, 2009, 01:01:09 PM
And Aquarius, i see the force you're setup generates.. But still don't understand how you get the ball back up..  Am I missing something here?  ???

You can easily do it using your gear example
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 15, 2009, 01:05:40 PM
You can easily do it using your gear example

Aha, now i understand!  Hmm  This is worth looking into further. 

Good luck!
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: broli on April 15, 2009, 01:06:52 PM
Aqariuz I tweaked your angle spin wheel a bit by adding energy calculations. The input energy comes from the potential energy of the weight while the total energy output is equal to the kinetic energy of the weight and rotational energy of wheel. There's then also a cop calculation and it's very overunity. But I don't fully trust these numbers as the simulation is filled with polygonal shapes which I don't trust. I would try to primitize it  :P.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 15, 2009, 01:12:34 PM
Aqariuz I tweaked your angle spin wheel a bit by adding energy calculations. The input energy comes from the potential energy of the weight while the total energy output is equal to the kinetic energy of the weight and rotational energy of wheel. There's then also a cop calculation and it's very overunity. But I don't fully trust these numbers as the simulation is filled with polygonal shapes which I don't trust. I would try to primitize it  :P.

That sounds promissing!  :)
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 15, 2009, 01:16:58 PM
You can easily do it using your gear example

We need a feeding system that is connected to the mainwheel, to ensure the right timing of the arriving of the weights...  I guess with having a few weights waiting in line and a kind of "thing" that's getting triggered by the wheel feeds a weight inside at the right time.  I tried several of those feeders.. But still not having a good design..  It can't be that hard..  you will see it in almost any factory with automated production lines..

Anyone got a clue??
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Grimer on April 15, 2009, 01:29:01 PM
Johann E. E. Bessler:

"A great craftsman would be that man who can 'lightly' cause a heavy weight to fly upwards! Who can make a pound-weight rise as 4 ounces fall, or 4 pounds rise as 16 ounces fall. If he can sort that out, the motion will perpetuate itself. But if he can't, then his hard work shall be all in vain."

That says it all doesn't it. Together with the Ezechiel quote

Ezechiel 1:16. And the appearance of the wheels, and the work of them was like
the appearance of the sea and the four had all one likeness: and their
appearance and their work was as it were a wheel in the midst of a wheel.  

It shows that Bessler beat Sjack to it by 300 years.

Think about it. What happens to the downwards force on the rack as the cogged weight climbs.

Where does this reaction finish up.

That's right, the ground. And that ain't going anywhere soon.

So the ground "sees" the wheel as having gotten (good Yankee word that  ;) ) heavier.

But if the wheel's gotten heavier, something else must have gotten lighter, eh!

What?

The weights climbing up the rack.

Now go back and read the Bessler quote.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 15, 2009, 01:53:21 PM
Aquarius, i was trying to test the lifting power of the concept.. It seems to have enough force.. But my cradles are going crazy...  I keep having problems with the program, things moving by themselves.. 

Here is the file
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 15, 2009, 02:00:26 PM
Oke, If the program isn't fooling us..  Here is proof we can lift a weight back up to its same height...

 :o :o :o

Good work Aquarius!
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: broli on April 15, 2009, 02:04:12 PM
Aqariuz I rebuild your simulation from scratch the "proper" way  :P. I used only primitives to build everything the wheel is only 1m in radius instead of 50m and only weighs 10kg instead of tons while the rolling weight weighs 1kg. Regardless of the amount of animation step chosen the over unity figure remains consistent. The COP can be as little as 1.24 (124%) to 24 (2400%) just by changing the mass of the rolling weight (see below) or the weight of the wheel.

BE AWARE:

If you change the mass of the rolling weight you must not forget to change the Energy input value. The weight of the wheel can be changed freely though. Make the mass of wheel 1 ton and you will see a COP of 28 000%  ;D.

Either there's something to explore here or I made a fatal error  ;D.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: broli on April 15, 2009, 02:29:05 PM
This is really strange. From all my experience with wm2d I have seen nothing like this. Usually the "bug" would go away with proper modeling but this remains consistent. Consistent to a point it makes unbelievable feats. It seems that the static-, kinetic friction and elasticity are the main parameters involved.

Even if the wheel weighs 10,000,000 kg, the 1kg weight manages for some reason to give it an extreme amount of energy on collision which is off the charts. In this specific case it's 7,222,243,630% overunity. But like I said those parameters are crucial. If you reduce them to 0 nothing out of the ordinary happens when you all max them out and make them 1 nothing out of the ordinary happens.

It's only when they reach a specific value where the cop is at its maximum.

Edit: Attached is another model clearly showing overunity instead of numbers. To stay true to the Bessler quote. The red weight is 4 times the yellow weight's mass. As you can see a small mass shoots up a heavy mass quite violently.

I'm on the fence with this one. Wm2d has it quirks but this is pretty amazing to me for such a simple model.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 15, 2009, 02:48:35 PM
This is really strange. From all my experience with wm2d I have seen nothing like this. Usually the "bug" would go away with proper modeling but this remains consistent. Consistent to a point it makes unbelievable feats. It seems that the static-, kinetic friction and elasticity are the main parameters involved.

Even if the wheel weighs 10,000,000 kg, the 1kg weight manages for some reason to give it an extreme amount of energy on collision which is off the charts. In this specific case it's 7,222,243,630% overunity. But like I said those parameters are crucial. If you reduce them to 0 nothing out of the ordinary happens when you all max them out and make them 1 nothing out of the ordinary happens.

It's only when they reach a specific value where the cop is at its maximum.

Edit: Attached is another model clearly showing overunity instead of numbers. To stay true to the Bessler quote. The red weight is 4 times the yellow weight's mass. As you can see a small mass shoots up a heavy mass quite violently.

I'm on the fence with this one. Wm2d has it quirks but this is pretty amazing to me for such a simple model.

Hi Broli, i rebuilt it as well, but how do i set the weights?  because this doesn't replicate it.

File attached.

Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 15, 2009, 02:56:17 PM
@broli,

I'm noticing you still use rigid joints set on Optimized. Recall, it was found out that this way they cause erroneous results and therefore have to be set to Measurable. Try to reset them and see what happens. Also try it with "Prevent model from faster than real-time" unchecked (it's in World>Preferences).
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: broli on April 15, 2009, 03:04:27 PM
@broli,

I'm noticing you still use rigid joints set on Optimized. Recall, it was found out that this way they cause erroneous results and therefore have to set to Measurable. Try to reset them and see what happens. Also try it with "Prevent model from faster than rel-time" unchecked (it's in World>Preferences).
Changing it to measurable killed all the fun ;D. Looks like that was the evil doer in this case. Atleast learned another thing now.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 15, 2009, 03:06:02 PM
@Cherryman,

I was playing with the model-replica of Abeling's device you made yesterday. The grooves are so tiny that if used for balls one needs to set ridiculous physical conditions. It appears that the rotor depicted in Fig.2 of the patent is only one half of a pair holding the weights. It very well may be that @AquariuZ is right and these grooves are just the guides for the axes of dumbbells and this has to be modeled in 3D, as you correctly inquired yesterday.

By the way, on the technical side -- do you know by any chance how are the extents preset so "Zoom to extents" can always give you a desired, preset, size?
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 15, 2009, 03:11:10 PM
@Cherryman,

I was playing with the model-replica of Abeling's device you made yesterday. The grooves are so tiny that if used for balls one needs to set ridiculous physical conditions. It appears that the rotor depicted in Fig.2 of the patent is only one half of a pair holding the weights. It very well may be that @AquariuZ is right and these grooves are just the guides for the axes of dumbbells and this has to be modeled in 3D, as you correctly inquired yesterday.

By the way, on the technical side -- do you know by any chance how are the extents preset so "Zoom to extents" can always give you a desired, preset, size?

Yes.. the "bars" thing could be the clue with Abelings design, although IF the bars are aligned it should be replicable in WM2D as long as the bars are at the same level. 

Sorry i do not now how to set the zoom extends in a fixed way.


@Broli  Hmm thats a shame..    Can you put those wrong settings in my model attached?  I want an "working" device  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: broli on April 15, 2009, 03:19:18 PM

@Broli  Hmm thats a shame..    Can you put those wrong settings in my model attached?  I want an "working" device  ;D ;D


The only thing that I changed were the joints. I first changed their settings to measurable and then replaced them by pin joints like yours and the overunity stopped. But I noticed in your models that your accuracy is always kept on default. Increase the animation steps to 200 in all models and high if you want to be even more sure and keep the integration error at 0.00001 or even lower. Both can be found at Menu->World->Accuracy.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 15, 2009, 03:28:31 PM
@Cherryman,

Quote
IF the bars are aligned it should be replicable in WM2D as long as the bars are at the same level

Seems the bars are at  the same level, judging from Fig. 7, but how do you do it in wm2d? Also, the egg-shaped guide for these bars has to be made precise and smooth. Can you make that egg-shaped guide (groove) exactly with the shape shown in the patent?
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 15, 2009, 03:36:06 PM
@Cherryman,

It should be something like what @AquariuZ did (see attached) but with the wheel with the tiny grooves you drew yesterday and a precise oval of the egg-shaped groove. Of course, replacing the balls with dumbbells, if that's possible in wm2d.

Of course, weights, initial velocities, dimensions (200m diameter is too huge), precision and all that should also be set properly.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: hartiberlin on April 15, 2009, 03:53:20 PM
Oke, If the program isn't fooling us..  Here is proof we can lift a weight back up to its same height...

 :o :o :o

Good work Aquarius!

You always use too much weight in your simulations !

A 19.5 Kg weight can not kick a 2000 Kg wheel as the simulation shows.. !
This would not work as the 2000 Kg weight would have much too much inertia.

I just tried to change the weight of the 2 wheels down to 1 or 10 Kg and
then it does not work.

You really need to watch out for your weights.

It seems WM2D has problems with big masses.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Grimer on April 15, 2009, 04:39:29 PM
Too much cognitive dissonance I suppose.  ::)
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: hartiberlin on April 15, 2009, 04:46:16 PM


Probably saying that centrifugal force is not a true force is a bit confusing because the body does experience it. The emphasis should be on the fact which you clearly point out that it is a reaction to a force for which you have to spend energy to create. That is, centrifugal force cannot be used to create energy. On the contrary, energy is spent to have centrifugal force appear. This has to be understood well because it causes a lot of confusion and false expectations, which is evident even in the latest posts.


Hi Omnibus,
many thanks for setting this clear.
I also mixed this up.
But to speed up a wheel from 100 RPM to 200 RPM you also have to put in energy to do this,
to overcome the inertial rotaional impulse conservation of the masses of the wheel, so you need to
spend a lot of energy to speedit up and to get a higher centifugal force.

So just converting potential energy with a ball going through some circles to create
centrifugal forces and release the ball, when the centrifugal force will have the biggest
value will not get you more energy than you spent by converting the potential height energy
mxgxh.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 15, 2009, 04:59:30 PM
I'm back to practical issues. I think I said it before, this rendition by @AquariuZ (see attached) is probably the closest to the patent. I don't see why, if the dumbbell version would work, this wouldn't. What I think needs to be done first is to find a way to tweak the form of the egg-shaped groove and make it smoother. It is obvious that in its present form the egg-shaped groove is wanting.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: 0c on April 15, 2009, 05:09:30 PM
We need a feeding system that is connected to the mainwheel, to ensure the right timing of the arriving of the weights...  I guess with having a few weights waiting in line and a kind of "thing" that's getting triggered by the wheel feeds a weight inside at the right time.  I tried several of those feeders.. But still not having a good design..  It can't be that hard..  you will see it in almost any factory with automated production lines..

Anyone got a clue??

Cherry,

This would be the next logical step in the proposal I made where the balls actually depart the wheel so there is no gravitational resistance on the ascending side. All weight on the wheel would only be on the descending side. It should be a pretty simple exercise for someone knowledgable about WM2D.

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7150.msg171469#msg171469

My initial request was for a WM2D model that can demonstrate how much momentum is available to a ball if it is released at the bottom. Once we have a better idea of the ball's velocity (speed and direction), we can design a more practical return mechanism (your feeding system) to get the balls back to the top and sync with the wheel.

A major consideration will be how to recover a maximum amount of energy from a recaptured ball and transfer that energy back to the wheel. The ball will escape with a certain speed. Raising the ball against gravity will reduce that speed to something less than what it initially had when it was slung out at the bottom.

But closer to the wheel's hub, the rotational speed is slower, so we may be able to synchronize better if the balls are recaptured closer to the hub.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 15, 2009, 06:17:47 PM
Correct form and smoothness of the egg-shaped groove in @AquariuZ' model seems to be the crucial step at this point. Seems that's the gist of Abeling's idea, if it's at all a working device. So how do we tweak the form of the egg-shaped groove and how do we make it smooth?
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 15, 2009, 06:59:27 PM
Here's the scaled down version of @AquariuZ' model, disassembled to work on the egg-shaped groove (see attached).
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 15, 2009, 08:22:23 PM
You always use too much weight in your simulations !

A 19.5 Kg weight can not kick a 2000 Kg wheel as the simulation shows.. !
This would not work as the 2000 Kg weight would have much too much inertia.

I just tried to change the weight of the 2 wheels down to 1 or 10 Kg and
then it does not work.

You really need to watch out for your weights.

It seems WM2D has problems with big masses.

Regards, Stefan.

Stefan, In case you missed it....

It is essential to have a good look at this.

Imagine a weight receiving spin because it is pulled by gravity along a ramp. It hits a barrier at an angle and transfers the spin to that barrier. Experiment by turning the spoke more and more parallel to the ramp in small increments and watch V0 for the barrier. Pause directly after hit to see full translation of spin. At a certain angle, a significant "jolt" is given to the barrier, which is disproportionate to the momentum of the dumbbell axle.

Please review this model. Mondrasek Omnibus & Broli, please your opinion too.

There is no error in the model attached, unless someone tells me otherwise.

I am currently buidling a hollow wheel with angled weights.

Again, image the axle of a dumbbell rolling over a surface which will spin that axle. Image the spin on the outer ends of the weights. Now imaging those weights being launched into their (angled) slots.

I rest my case & will post it soon. I am also writing the wm2d engineer to have a look at the attached.


Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: hartiberlin on April 15, 2009, 08:37:20 PM
This is really strange. From all my experience with wm2d I have seen nothing like this. Usually the "bug" would go away with proper modeling but this remains consistent. Consistent to a point it makes unbelievable feats. It seems that the static-, kinetic friction and elasticity are the main parameters involved.

Even if the wheel weighs 10,000,000 kg, the 1kg weight manages for some reason to give it an extreme amount of energy on collision which is off the charts. In this specific case it's 7,222,243,630% overunity. But like I said those parameters are crucial. If you reduce them to 0 nothing out of the ordinary happens when you all max them out and make them 1 nothing out of the ordinary happens.

It's only when they reach a specific value where the cop is at its maximum.

Edit: Attached is another model clearly showing overunity instead of numbers. To stay true to the Bessler quote. The red weight is 4 times the yellow weight's mass. As you can see a small mass shoots up a heavy mass quite violently.

I'm on the fence with this one. Wm2d has it quirks but this is pretty amazing to me for such a simple model.

Well,yes,it seems to be the ELASTIC parameter inside the properties box of the masses.

I have also reedited this design to see, how it works, but if you set the elastic parameter to Zero
for both the colliding objects, the big acceleration effect goes away.

So another bug of WM2D we must pay attention to workaround.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 15, 2009, 08:43:08 PM
Check this out (see attached). Slightly improved @AquariuZ' model, scaled down, track somewhat smoothed out etc. Still not working but probably we should focus on the right form of the egg-shaped groove and tweak it a little here and there.

@AquariuZ, still couldn't look at your last model because I was working on this. Will do.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: hartiberlin on April 15, 2009, 08:43:31 PM
Stefan, In case you missed it....

It is essential to have a good look at this.

Imagine a weight receiving spin because it is pulled by gravity along a ramp. It hits a barrier at an angle and transfers the spin to that barrier. Experiment by turning the spoke more and more parallel to the ramp in small increments and watch V0 for the barrier. Pause directly after hit to see full translation of spin. At a certain angle, a significant "jolt" is given to the barrier, which is disproportionate to the momentum of the dumbbell axle.

Please review this model. Mondrasek Omnibus & Broli, please your opinion too.

There is no error in the model attached, unless someone tells me otherwise.

I am currently buidling a hollow wheel with angled weights.

Again, image the axle of a dumbbell rolling over a surface which will spin that axle. Image the spin on the outer ends of the weights. Now imaging those weights being launched into their (angled) slots.

I rest my case & will post it soon. I am also writing the wm2d engineer to have a look at the attached.




Sorry to burst your bubble,
but if you set both elastic parameters to Zero it does no longer work.

Have a look at this:
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 15, 2009, 08:58:08 PM
Sorry to burst your bubble,
but if you set both elastic parameters to Zero it does no longer work.

Have a look at this:


You simply cannot set elasticity to zero, every material has a certain amount of elasticity...
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: hartiberlin on April 15, 2009, 09:09:31 PM
You simply cannot set elasticity to zero, every material has a certain amount of elasticity...

Okay, just set it to 0.1 and you see,
that there is no energy amplification then.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Justalabrat on April 15, 2009, 09:20:31 PM
Stefan, In case you missed it....

It is essential to have a good look at this.

Imagine a weight receiving spin because it is pulled by gravity along a ramp. It hits a barrier at an angle and transfers the spin to that barrier. Experiment by turning the spoke more and more parallel to the ramp in small increments and watch V0 for the barrier. Pause directly after hit to see full translation of spin. At a certain angle, a significant "jolt" is given to the barrier, which is disproportionate to the momentum of the dumbbell axle.


Just a note, if you set the barrier not to collide with the ramp, it will keep spinning forever. That might be a bug.

 But then I am Justalabrat
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 15, 2009, 09:21:26 PM
Stefan, set it to some large number (to model absolutely elastic collision; the absolutely non-elastic collision in you example is as expected -- the bodies remain stuck together). It goes berserk. Something isn't right.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 15, 2009, 09:27:47 PM
Come on people.

You are basically saying that every model made in wm2d for e.g. collision analysis is wrong because the default elasticity settings for all materials are wrong.

That is quite a statement.

The angle of the spoke or sleeve is calibrated for standard materials at 0.579 rad. Differnt materials require different angles for optimal jolts.
 
Material ::::::: Jolt

standard::::::::::: -4.256 rad/s
steel::::::::::::::::: -0.049 rad/s BUT at P0 = 0.844 rad (steeper Spoke) already -0.249 rad/s!
ice:::::::::::::::::::: -0.055 rad/s
wood::::::::::::::::: -0.106 rad/s
plastic::::::::::::::: -0.057 rad/s
clay:::::::::::::::::: -0.191 rad/s
rubber::::::::::::::: -0.011 rad/s
rock ::::::::::::::::: -2.011 rad/s

Saying that a basic principle like elasticity may be the cause is simply ludricous, it would render the software completely useless for ANY modeling.

Well, it is easy enough to test in real world with some spinning pinballs and a ramp.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 15, 2009, 09:29:34 PM
Stefan, set it to some large number (to model absolutely elastic collision; the absolutely non-elastic collision in you example is as expected -- the bodies remain stuck together). It goes berserk. Something isn't right.

What do you expect if you maximize elasticity.

Would be a hell of a cat toy though.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 15, 2009, 09:30:02 PM
The conclusion is the program doesn't work well with springs, as @mondrasek warned, with elastic collisions etc. In these cases, again as @mondrasek warned, we have to use palliative measures such as air resistance, dampers etc. Fortunately, we don't have these kinds of problems in our concrete example reproducing Abeling's patent. In our case, extra care should be taken only regarding the rigid joints which Stefan warned cause problems. These problems can be fixed by changing the properties of the rigid joint from Optimized to Measurable. That's all at this point, as far as I can see.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: broli on April 15, 2009, 09:38:07 PM
Lol this is indeed strange. The anomaly is back with that model. I even changed the pin joints with two rods and get the same numbers. Increased the accuracy and also get the same numbers. I'm clueless whether it's another wm2D quirk or the real deal. I'm going to do some force analysis to have an idea of the forces that are involved.

Attached is again a slightly tweaked model with energy calculation and more round up masses. At impact the cop is 2.2 or about 230% overunity.

Stefan even at 0.1 elasticity it gives overunity. If it doesn't just increase the mass of the spoke  ;D.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 15, 2009, 09:42:45 PM
Lol this is indeed strange. The anomaly is back with that model. I even changed the pin joints with two rods and get the same numbers. Increased the accuracy and also get the same numbers. I'm clueless whether it's another wm2D quirk or the real deal. I'm going to do some force analysis to have an idea of the forces that are involved.

Attached is again a slightly tweaked model with energy calculation and more round up masses. At impact the cop is 2.2 or about 230% overunity.

Stefan even at 0.1 elasticity it gives overunity. If it doesn't just increase the mass of the spoke  ;D.

THANK GOD SOMEONE IS AWAKE.

It fits the Abeling setup.

He may not even know why it works.

The only suspicion I have is that if in the real world there is some unknown reaction to spinning bodies colliding why or how would this find its way into wm2d?

Unless it fits a mathematical model, which it does not seem to (from what I see broli)

Thanks for your help
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 15, 2009, 09:44:39 PM
Hey can we make some glass with this?

Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 15, 2009, 10:02:56 PM

THANK GOD SOMEONE IS AWAKE.

It fits the Abeling setup.

He may not even know why it works.

The only suspicion I have is that if in the real world there is some unknown reaction to spinning bodies colliding why or how would this find its way into wm2d?

Unless it fits a mathematical model, which it does not seem to (from what I see broli)

Thanks for your help

A way of thinking out of the box (I'm not a physist or something..  :):  :-\


Maybe the spinning is an acumulation.. you have a weight going down an angle, rotating (spinning) will help it going faster..  Thats is a force.. because when gravity is exactly straight downwards, even a round body would only goes down.. not sideways on a ramp. An object can go sliding.. thats a lot of friction an heat. But when it starts rotating it has almost no contact or loss.. it's gaining..  It's escaping downwards gravity..  by.. Rotating.. Spinnig. 

Hope it makes sence...

So spinning.. Aquariuz..    I Like it!  ;D
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 15, 2009, 10:03:49 PM
@All,

We have to solve the following problem: Is there an egg-shaped (this is how we chose to call it) contour which will ensure that at any position of the spheres in Abeling’s model the generalized mass times the generalized right-hand lever arm length (to the right of the center of mass, that is) will be persistently greater than that generalized product on the left hand side of the system center of mass. This is a slightly topological problem but also looks more like a variational problem. Wonder if that can be solved numerically by the method of least or boundary elements? Of course, an analytical solution would be much more preferable. If no such solution exists, we’re in serious trouble regarding this project. To put it bluntly, lack of a solution will simply kill the project.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: broli on April 15, 2009, 10:05:51 PM
To put it bluntly, lack of a solution will simply kill the project.

I agree. Someone needs to convince Sjack to disclose the mechanics behind his wheel and then we can live in peace  ;D.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Alexioco on April 15, 2009, 10:07:02 PM
Hi all  8), this topic seems to be getting more interesting as I read, i would help out with the modeling but every time i tried to get w2md, it failed...


Alex
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 15, 2009, 10:11:37 PM
I agree. Someone needs to convince Sjack to disclose the mechanics behind his wheel and then we can live in peace  ;D.

You know what i think:

I Think he is watching this.. and smiling! .. Because when he speakes the truth.. He cannot talk about it himself due to contracts, but i think he is a kind of person who likes this.. and somewhere in his mind would like us to find the clue..  But not to soon ;-)

Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: broli on April 15, 2009, 10:14:06 PM
You know what i think:

I Think he is watching this.. and smiling! .. Because when he speakes the truth.. He cannot talk about it himself due to contracts, but i think he is a kind of person who likes this.. and somewhere in his mind would like us to find the clue..  But not to soon ;-)



I agree. I would be having the fun of my life seeing others trying to solve my riddle. But I think the world is in a too big of a shit hole to be playing games right now.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: hartiberlin on April 15, 2009, 10:24:54 PM
@All,

We have to solve the following problem: Is there an egg-shaped (this is how we chose to call it) contour which will ensure that at any position of the spheres in Abeling’s model the generalized mass times the generalized right-hand lever arm length (to the right of the center of mass, that is) will be persistently greater than that generalized product on the left hand side of the system center of mass. This is a slightly topological problem but also looks more like a variational problem. Wonder if that can be solved numerically by the method of least or boundary elements? Of course, an analytical solution would be much more preferable. If no such solution exists, we’re in serious trouble regarding this project. To put it bluntly, lack of a solution will simply kill the project.

Well, I guess there is no working solution for the egg shaped Abeling wheel.
Also if using elliptical pathes it just does not work.
It just comes down to keel itself and comes to a stillstand,
which is predicted by normal gravity science.


Maybe he has hidden in his patent, why he uses 2 wheels instead of one.
This could have an effect of transfering weights from one wheel to the other
or something simular.

Why would he otherwise use 2 wheels if one could also do it ??

I guess this is his secret if his 2 wheel devic really works.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: hartiberlin on April 15, 2009, 10:26:14 PM
Lol this is indeed strange. The anomaly is back with that model. I even changed the pin joints with two rods and get the same numbers. Increased the accuracy and also get the same numbers. I'm clueless whether it's another wm2D quirk or the real deal. I'm going to do some force analysis to have an idea of the forces that are involved.

Attached is again a slightly tweaked model with energy calculation and more round up masses. At impact the cop is 2.2 or about 230% overunity.

Stefan even at 0.1 elasticity it gives overunity. If it doesn't just increase the mass of the spoke  ;D.

xnonix_rueda_overunityV2.wm2d

Can you explain this xnonix_rueda_overunityV2.wm2d
a bit more ?

How did you model this and how did you set the calculation display boxes in there ?

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: broli on April 15, 2009, 10:27:49 PM
Can you explain this xnonix_rueda_overunityV2.wm2d
a bit more ?

How did you model this and how did you set the calculation display boxes in there ?

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.

Lol I was quite surprised you mentioned that as this is an ancient model that once got posted on this forum. So please ignore it. I will change the post with the correct model.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: hartiberlin on April 15, 2009, 10:52:14 PM
Lol I was quite surprised you mentioned that as this is an ancient model that once got posted on this forum. So please ignore it. I will change the post with the correct model.

Yes, I still remember it, but wasit ever validated, that it really worked with this overunity factor ?
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: broli on April 15, 2009, 10:58:59 PM
Yes, I still remember it, but wasit ever validated, that it really worked with this overunity factor ?

Nope it was heavily flawed. I was still a newbie back then.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 15, 2009, 11:28:32 PM
Well, I guess there is no working solution for the egg shaped Abeling wheel.
Also if using elliptical pathes it just does not work.
It just comes down to keel itself and comes to a stillstand,
which is predicted by normal gravity science.


Maybe he has hidden in his patent, why he uses 2 wheels instead of one.
This could have an effect of transfering weights from one wheel to the other
or something simular.

Why would he otherwise use 2 wheels if one could also do it ??

I guess this is his secret if his 2 wheel devic really works.

Regards, Stefan.


I'm not sure about that. Until I see a rigorous solution to this problem it isn't evident to me at all that there isn't a path which will ensure the mentioned non-equality. Seems there's something overlooked in these devices or deliberately withheld because of various social reasons. All is within classical mechanics, nothing fancy, but either overlooked or deliberately withheld and not pursued when found. As to why two wheels, well, maybe because if it's one wheel it will infringe on other patents or won't be novel since it resembles numerous well-known constructions, nonworking as they may be. Of course, I don't deny that he may be hiding something as most patentees do so that they can sell it as a trade secret. First, however, we have to find a rigorous answer to the obvious problem with the egg-shaped groove, I think, and then pursue the rest.

Thus, we already have in this thread two clearly defined problems for mathematicians versed in calculations in mechanics. These problems may be considered part of theoretical physics despite their practical aspect.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Philip Hardcastle on April 16, 2009, 02:11:20 AM
@omnibus,

I saw a post by you saying I broke my word.

I take exception at that, it is not the case.

I said ok to you using my email.

I did not agree to be silenced however I did respect your wish not to debate that rubbish.

I have left you to your quest in peace but do not go about attacking my good name.

My problem with you is that you lead a lot of people on with your claim that gravity energy is proved when the paper you showed me is not a proof, it is an opinion, not a good one in mine.

You should not claim to have proof when you do not then you would advance sensible debate on this forum.

Simply saying to all around you that a b or c is proved so lets move on is wrong unless a b or c is actually proved.

Now you gave me a document that you said proved such and then you expect me to agree by being totally quiet about it, well that is simply wrong omni and unfair for you to expect such.

Like I said I wish you luck but my opinion is the same that I believe you are wasting a lot of time when you could pursue better ideas.


Phil
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: mrsean2k on April 16, 2009, 03:31:50 AM
@omnibus,

I saw a post by you saying I broke my word.

I take exception at that, it is not the case.

I said ok to you using my email.

I did not agree to be silenced however I did respect your wish not to debate that rubbish.

I have left you to your quest in peace but do not go about attacking my good name.

My problem with you is that you lead a lot of people on with your claim that gravity energy is proved when the paper you showed me is not a proof, it is an opinion, not a good one in mine.

You should not claim to have proof when you do not then you would advance sensible debate on this forum.

Simply saying to all around you that a b or c is proved so lets move on is wrong unless a b or c is actually proved.

Now you gave me a document that you said proved such and then you expect me to agree by being totally quiet about it, well that is simply wrong omni and unfair for you to expect such.

Like I said I wish you luck but my opinion is the same that I believe you are wasting a lot of time when you could pursue better ideas.


Phil

A simple apology for breaking your word would be a lot more palatable than this inelegant wriggle.

You agreed not to debate it here. You insisted on debating the matter despite giving your word - in other words you broke it.

You even apologised for doing so before you started, it's not as if it was accidental:

"Sorry to be blunt, and I know you do not want a debate, but anyone saying that it is proved by that essay is not being rational."

That you decided in retrospect that what you read wasn't worth the promise you made isn't a defence of any kind.

A bit rich to be getting on your high-horse; you did break your word, plain and simole.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: hartiberlin on April 16, 2009, 04:51:14 AM
Hi All,
I have tried to model the Bob machine over here:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=2326.msg171876#msg171876

Still need some help with the model.
There is still a motor attached to get the disc to speed
and the rope pulleys are not yet correct, so the weights are not yet
pulled up correctly.

Maybe someone can fix it.
Many thanks in advance.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: LarryC on April 16, 2009, 05:02:54 AM
The statements of the main two inventors about CF slam energy should also be ignored.

I'm sorry Mr. Omnibus, I did not know. If I understand you correctly, the inventors of OU devices should pass their statements by you for approval.

I sure wish that Stefan would post this info on the home page, so that the poor ignorant hardworking, actual builders, inventors understand the rules.

Regards, Larry
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: X00013 on April 16, 2009, 06:16:30 AM
@Omni , ur havin too much fun with this, I just had to chime in. If you want to draft try http://www.solidedge.eu.com/isapi/pagegen.dll/pages?page=free_2d

Its a free full working 30 day trial, save as dxf, then import from working model. I've been running all the various models, in 2d and 3d, with better physics engines than wm2d. If I find somthing  I will post it. I have found the wheel wants to run backwards, kinda reminds me off the "ball race", shorter path or greater distance with gravityt? Speed and distance wins every time! Like u said somewhat, the math of my pc is determining the physics, which reminds me, u all need a kick ass graphics card and kick ass processer and tons of memory to get good results in ANY physics program. thank u n good nite
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: X00013 on April 16, 2009, 06:24:23 AM
Hi All,
I have tried to model the Bob machine over here:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=2326.msg171876#msg171876

Still need some help with the model.
There is still a motor attached to get the disc to speed
and the rope pulleys are not yet correct, so the weights are not yet
pulled up correctly.

Maybe someone can fix it.
Many thanks in advance.

Regards, Stefan.

Sorry but your efforts r valient and fruitless with wm2d on this build, wm2d cannot emulate pneumatics, nor there delayed response to CF forces.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 16, 2009, 06:33:19 AM
@Omni , ur havin too much fun with this, I just had to chime in. If you want to draft try http://www.solidedge.eu.com/isapi/pagegen.dll/pages?page=free_2d

Its a free full working 30 day trial, save as dxf, then import from working model. I've been running all the various models, in 2d and 3d, with better physics engines than wm2d. If I find somthing  I will post it. I have found the wheel wants to run backwards, kinda reminds me off the "ball race", shorter path or greater distance with gravityt? Speed and distance wins every time! Like u said somewhat, the math of my pc is determining the physics, which reminds me, u all need a kick ass graphics card and kick ass processer and tons of memory to get good results in ANY physics program. thank u n good nite

Thanks, buddy. Will have to try it sometime. I have SolidWorks but haven't tried it either. Now I'm struggling with AutoCAD. Not a straightforward thing. Anyway. Hope all is well with you and good night 2 u 2.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 16, 2009, 06:38:13 AM
Hi All,
I have tried to model the Bob machine over here:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=2326.msg171876#msg171876

Still need some help with the model.
There is still a motor attached to get the disc to speed
and the rope pulleys are not yet correct, so the weights are not yet
pulled up correctly.

Maybe someone can fix it.
Many thanks in advance.

Regards, Stefan.

Stefan, this device, unfortunately, has elements such as springs as well as collisions which cannot be modeled well with wm2d, as was found out. Wonder how fruitful it would be to pursue modeling it? Seems like the worst kind of example there could possibly be to model w/ wm2d.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: X00013 on April 16, 2009, 07:12:18 AM
@ all, dont put to much merit in ur PC's ability to calculate fictitious forces (IE. CF, ), just a heads up, it's not a "bug" in the program. It's a combination of the PC's inability to calculate school book numbers with what really happens. Game engines rock, wm2d suks, to put it lite--lee!!!!!
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: xnonix on April 16, 2009, 08:29:31 AM
For all of you making models with wm2d keep this into account.

Rigid joints have a bug I demostrated long time ago. The thing is to use 2 pin joints instead separated as much as posible one another.

The model is beatifull but I don't trust wm2d for all the experiments I did.

When I have the time I will do an power study in your models.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 16, 2009, 08:57:46 AM
When I have the time I will do an power study in your models.

If you could have a look at the list of same models with all possible materials I posted that would be great

This remains unanswered as far as I am concerned.

Thanks
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 16, 2009, 10:13:52 AM
If you could have a look at the list of same models with all possible materials I posted that would be great

This remains unanswered as far as I am concerned.

Thanks

I thought it's already established that wm2d is unfit for models with elastic collisions and with springs. To obtain physically consistent results in such cases palliative measures such as turning on air resistance, adding bumpers etc, have to be taken. Also, the rigid joints must be Measurable and not Optimized.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 16, 2009, 01:38:42 PM
I thought it's already established that wm2d is unfit for models with elastic collisions and with springs. To obtain physically consistent results in such cases palliative measures such as turning on air resistance, adding bumpers etc, have to be taken. Also, the rigid joints must be Measurable and not Optimized.


No that is not established at all, what gives you that idea?

If you look again you will find that all real world settings are active.

All default material matching elasticity used.

So again, not answered.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 16, 2009, 01:51:02 PM
No that is not established at all, what gives you that idea?

If you look again you will find that all real world settings are active.

All default material matching elasticity used.

So again, not answered.

It's not a matter of whether or not the settings are correct. There are intrinsic problems with the algorithm of the program itself which were demonstrated by several examples, including yours. Whenever springs or elastic collisions are involved additional measures have to be taken, such as turning on air resistance, adding bumpers and who knows what else to obtain a physically meaningful result. In your case to have the model exhibit the behavior known for ideally elastic collision the elasticity number you have to plug in is physically unrealistic, that is, has to be much less than 1. So, in your case, you have to plug in a physically unrealistic value in order to get a physically meaningful result. Same thing with springs -- you have to exclude the machine from working in vacuum in order to have a physically consistent result. That's non-physical and demonstrates the weakness of the program in such cases. I don't think we should continue with these curiosities whose only merit is revealing the weaknesses of wm2d. At this point the sensible path is to deal with your egg-shaped examples where practically there are no elastic collisions essential for the model and there are no springs and other known issues with wm2d. Besides, these are the models applicable to the discussion at hand -- Abeling's patent.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Alexioco on April 16, 2009, 02:00:41 PM
Would it just be better if the design was built and tested? After all, trying to get peretual motion on wm2d is harder than real life because not only do you have to solve the problem, but work around the faults of the program.

Alex
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 16, 2009, 02:09:25 PM
Would it just be better if the design was built and tested? After all, trying to get peretual motion on wm2d is harder than real life because not only do you have to solve the problem, but work around the faults of the program.

Alex

In the case of @AquariuZ' egg-shaped model the program hasn't shown faults. Knowing this, it's obviously better to try the various forms of the track, weights, materials, dimensions etc. first on a computer model rather than spend money and effort on innumerable real world models.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Alexioco on April 16, 2009, 03:00:35 PM
In the case of @AquariuZ' egg-shaped model the program hasn't shown faults. Knowing this, it's obviously better to try the various forms of the track, weights, materials, dimensions etc. first on a computer model rather than spend money and effort on innumerable real world models.

Oh, well yes, if theres no faults then it is better, hows it coming anyway, I havnt seen it because I dont have the program, wont let me have it...


Alex
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 16, 2009, 03:21:02 PM
Oh, well yes, if theres no faults then it is better, hows it coming anyway, I havnt seen it because I dont have the program, wont let me have it...


Alex

No joy yet. If there's anything noteworthy we would post it on youtube for people like you who don't have wm2d.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: mondrasek on April 16, 2009, 03:27:15 PM
Missed a day due to a real life work trip.  But here is the first of two post for you all:

With regards to WM2D.  It is a very valuable tool that can be very helpful if used correctly.  To use it correctly you have to have some engineering knowledge of the parameters.  Please do not dismiss it as causing errors or having bad algorithms.  That simply is not the case.

Springs.  Using an ideal spring in WM2D can cause issues.  But then again, there is no such thing as an ideal spring in real life!  If so, you would be able to deflect such a spring (in a vaccum) and watch it oscillate forever.  But it will not.  That is because in the case of all real springs there is an internal resistance/friction that causes some sort of dampening.  Using dampeners and/or air resistance in WM2D makes their theoretical (yet impossible) springs actually behave more like real world springs.  So using dampeners is not a bug work around.  Using springs without dampeners can create sim world instabilities that can be corrected with proper engineering knowledge.

Collisions.  Elasticity is an actual property of every real material.  And no material has a value or 0 or 1 elasticity.  So again, if you model with elasticity of 0 and/or 1 you should expect results that are also fictional.

Pins vs. Rigid joint.  WM2D must calculated interactions through an iterative process, one by one.  This induces error and cannot be avoided.  But the error can be minimized.  Using two pins spread as far apart as possible will minimize the error.  I won't go into the reasons again, but just understand that it is a more robust way to model the behavior of fixing the three degrees of rotation we deal with in 2D sims.  Again, not a bug.  Just a mathematical fact.  As with every sim, there are various ways to model each interaction.  It may take some engineering knowledge or experience to figure out the best method.  Modeling exactly how you would expect to build a device in the real world is not necessarily the best way to model something in a sim.  This is because the sim has the limitations of working calculations one by one using a relatively large time step.  In order to get the best results, the time step must be made so small that you would need supercomputer processing speeds in order to see a sim in anything close to real time.  Simulations are what supercomputers are used for!  So don't expect your PC to be able to keep up.  But do learn the best way to model each interaction to minimize the errors.  Note:  Why are solid joints so hard to model?  Because in the real world everything (EVERYTHING!) bends a bit when subjected to a force.  So the rigid joints in the sim are also something that does not exist in the real world.

M.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: mondrasek on April 16, 2009, 03:40:51 PM
Now for the fun post! 

AquariuZ appears to have begun to investigate this idea already:  What if the missing interaction comes from the weights being gyroscopes?  Take the dumbbell shape and let it spin around the axis of the handle.  Why?  Because gyros still have mass and therefore their whole body will react to gravity and fall and cause a wheel to rotate like any other weight.  But when a force is applied to a gyro the equal and opposite reaction force is in a 90 degree direction to the force on a regular object.  So when you push a gyro it does not move in the direction of the force.  It moves to the side.

In the lifting portion of Abeling's (and others) gravity wheel design the wheel, ramps, etc. are pushing on the weights in order to lift them up again.  If those weights were gyros the reaction of the wheel, ramps, etc would not be in the expected direction, but 90 degrees to it.

How to model a gyro in WM2D?  Replace the current round weights with two concentric circles attached at the center with a pin joint.  The smaller inner wheel is the axle/dumbbell handle and should collide with the wheel, ramps, etc.  The bigger, outer circle should be free to spin and not collide with anything (or just some things).

Do gyros react correctly to applied forces in WM2D?  I do not know.  But I can think of some simple tests to try. 

M.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 16, 2009, 04:11:20 PM
@mondrasek,

Using “air resistance” to model behavior of springs in vacuum still sounds like workaround, unless “air resistance” is just used as a figure of speech and turning it on in fact means turning on in the model the inevitable internal resistance in real springs. But then, what would it be if real air resistance is needed to be turned on. Does it mean that in addition to the “air resistance” used to mimic the internal resistance of a real spring one should add additional air resistance. This is a workaround in my book.

As for collisions, the only physically realistic result in @AquariuZ’ model was obtained by Stefan when he set it to 0, that is, modeling ideally non-elastic collision. Results with elastic collisions, not even ideally elastic (1), gave funny results. So, the program has to be used very carefully with collisions, again with workarounds, it seems.

The rigid joints. I think the problem was fixed by changing Optimized to Measurable in Properties. Forgot who suggested it. This was one of the most useful little tips, resolving a lot of confusion here. Otherwise, the points you make about sims are quite correct.

I didn’t get the gyro part of your posting, though. Why divert attention to that? It is indeed a very interesting phenomenon to investigate, but separately, I think. A spinning gyro requires spending of energy while here we’re interested in producing energy without spending any. So, investigating gyros makes the same sense as investigating centrifugal forces. These may have cursory importance here because the certain amount of energy spent for them (for spinning the gyro or for the force that has CF as a reaction) may reshuffle the parts of the construction favorably so more energy be produced as a result. This is the only role of discussing gyros or CF here although at this moment I don’t see any use for them in optimizing the device. The problems with the device at hand seem to be elsewhere.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: mondrasek on April 16, 2009, 04:50:56 PM
Using “air resistance” to model behavior of springs in vacuum still sounds like workaround, unless “air resistance” is just used as a figure of speech and turning it on in fact means turning on in the model the inevitable internal resistance in real springs. But then, what would it be if real air resistance is needed to be turned on. Does it mean that in addition to the “air resistance” used to mimic the internal resistance of a real spring one should add additional air resistance. This is a workaround in my book.

I said, using dampeners and/or air resistance makes the behaiour of modeled spings more realistic and fixes the ill effects of siming with ideal (impossible) springs.  You may notice that springs with built in dampeners are one of the building elements in WM2D and could be used instead of ideal springs.  Turning on air resistance is a way to apply a global dampening effect without having to work with the dampening characteristics of individual springs.  So you can call either a workaround.  I call it proper engineering.

As for collisions, the only physically realistic result in @AquariuZ’ model was obtained by Stefan when he set it to 0, that is, modeling ideally non-elastic collision. Results with elastic collisions, not even ideally elastic (1), gave funny results. So, the program has to be used very carefully with collisions, again with workarounds, it seems.

Proper material properties, including elasticity, and small time step and integration error give proper collision results.

I didn’t get the gyro part of your posting, though. Why divert attention to that? It is indeed a very interesting phenomenon to investigate, but separately, I think. A spinning gyro requires spending of energy while here we’re interested in producing energy without spending any. So, investigating gyros makes the same sense as investigating centrifugal forces. These may have cursory importance here because the certain amount of energy spent for them (for spinning the gyro or for the force that has CF as a reaction) may reshuffle the parts of the construction favorably so more energy be produced as a result. This is the only role of discussing gyros or CF here although at this moment I don’t see any use for them in optimizing the device. The problems with the device at hand seem to be elsewhere.

Because it fits with the rest of the "facts".  Let's start with the web page:

This new physical theory will explain how to generate energy by rotating two bodies with the same mass/weight. The weight of the bodies together with ... (intentionally omitted) and the rotational velocity determine the amount of energy that can be generated.

Now replace (intentionally omitted) with Gyrospopic Effects.

I do not propose that the gyros are to be spun up by external forces.  They should be spun up by the device as the device turns, storing some of the gravitational potential energy of the weights at the top of the wheel as it is converted to kinetic energy through falling.

Gyroscopes add an element not yet considered by this forum.  It is an effect where the reaction force is not opposite in direction.  It also fits easily into the patent design and would not need to be disclosed to secure a patent on a working device.  It could be the "hidden" item some are looking for.  So that is why I bring it up here.  I wonder if it could be a way to have the weights move through the prescribed path without absorbing all of the energy of the wheel on the raising side.

What's your idea?
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 16, 2009, 05:17:47 PM
@mondrasek,

See, I don’t buy this “new theory” thing but your idea makes sense intuitively, I think. I say intuitively because I don’t see exactly how it will work putting it in concrete terms.

My idea, which doesn’t exclude gyro effects of the type you mention, if plausible, is that all is overlooked classical mechanics and what we need to do is find the conditions whereby the rule for a balanced lever will be persistently violated. I wonder if you know of a mathematician dealing with mechanics who might help us in the analytical part of solving such a problem. First, finding out whether or not that’s at all possible. We already have two somewhat well defined mathematical problems – this one and the one presented here in a gif by the Japanese guy at the beginning of the thread (forgot what his handle was). If we resort to only trial and error modeling with wm2d we won’t get too far. What is needed is a bit, and probably more than a bit, of a scientific approach. Someone to help in writing the Lagrangian of the system and then helping in solving it for various conditions. Someone did a similar analysis of the Milkovic contraption (can’t find the paper right now) by writing the equations governing the device when activated on its one side, obtaining the analytical expression for the response on the other side. Unfortunately, he didn’t finish the analysis by observing it in a reverse direction. Something similar has to be done here to see first whether or not there would be realistic analytical solutions of that purported motor or generator of free energy or whatever one may wanna call it. This  will give us a clue as to what direction the construction efforts should go.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 16, 2009, 05:43:11 PM
@mondrasek,

Here is an idea of what needs to be done: http://www.veljkomilkovic.com/Images/Mathematical_analisys_Tosic_english.pdf. This is analysis of the Veljko Milkovic machine. I'm not endorsing the analysis, let alone the machine itself may not even be original. As Hans pointed out it may be a take on Constantinesco's ideas. This, however, has to be studied more which isn't the purpose of our current efforts. I'm citing this link just as a rough idea as to what should be done regarding the current project.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: i_ron on April 16, 2009, 07:12:34 PM
. As Hans pointed out it may be a take on Constantinesco's ideas.

I have had some experience with Veljko Milkovic’s pendulum and have studied Constantinesco’s work. I don’t think Han’s references to these gentlemen are correct and should not be repeated willie nillie. 

It would be more correct to just say that Constantinesco, Milkovic and Würth’s field of endeavor are related, without the put down implied in Han’s remarks.

Ron
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 16, 2009, 07:29:55 PM
I have had some experience with Veljko Milkovic’s pendulum and have studied Constantinesco’s work. I don’t think Han’s references to these gentlemen are correct and should not be repeated willie nillie. 

It would be more correct to just say that Constantinesco, Milkovic and Würth’s field of endeavor are related, without the put down implied in Han’s remarks.

Ron

OK, fair enough. I've visited Veljko Milkovic personally and find his devices interesting and worth further study. One thing that one may think would be easy to do, given the claimed output/input ratio, is closing the loop. The fact that it hasn't been done yet, of course, doesn't mean the claim is false but probably the technical issues for actually achieving it are not as straightforward as they seem to be at first sight. The rigorous analysis I gave link to in my previous post is also interesting but is unfinished. On the other hand, Constantinesco's work was unknown to me until couple of days ago when Hans sent me some texts. I haven't studied them, so I'm taking Hans' word for it. I hear what you're saying too. All this is to be discussed at some other time, though. We have other things to worry about in this thread (unless you provide an argument that the phenomenon Milkovic demonstrates is reflected here in some way because of the levers involved).
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 16, 2009, 07:56:28 PM
I made a simple test setup to see the difference in the spinning effect.


- All circumstances are equal
- Weight and shape dont change
- Dumbell touches underground and object in 4 different ways
- Intresting results

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8oAN5cKHu8&feature=channel_page
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 16, 2009, 08:03:39 PM
Here is the file:

Edit:

More options added

File attached.

Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: mondrasek on April 16, 2009, 08:49:57 PM
Here is the same file with the roller axle not fixed to the roller.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 16, 2009, 09:28:52 PM
Here is the same file with the roller axle not fixed to the roller.

Nice!  Intresting differences.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 16, 2009, 09:47:58 PM
So this is what we learnt:

- The weights (and/or largest diameter) gives the best result when used as the contact service with the track
- The rod (And/or smallest diameter) Works best as the deliverer of the weight to a third object.

Edit: And as Mondrasek showed, it works best with the bar and weights able or turning freely from eachother.

Do we need to sort the diameter difference also, and how?

(I'm not a mathematician or fysicks , etc.. , so i try to make this Auquariuz effect visible, explainable by graphics)

Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 16, 2009, 09:51:08 PM
Now for the fun post! 

AquariuZ appears to have begun to investigate this idea already:  What if the missing interaction comes from the weights being gyroscopes?  Take the dumbbell shape and let it spin around the axis of the handle.  Why?  Because gyros still have mass and therefore their whole body will react to gravity and fall and cause a wheel to rotate like any other weight.  But when a force is applied to a gyro the equal and opposite reaction force is in a 90 degree direction to the force on a regular object.  So when you push a gyro it does not move in the direction of the force.  It moves to the side.

In the lifting portion of Abeling's (and others) gravity wheel design the wheel, ramps, etc. are pushing on the weights in order to lift them up again.  If those weights were gyros the reaction of the wheel, ramps, etc would not be in the expected direction, but 90 degrees to it.

How to model a gyro in WM2D?  Replace the current round weights with two concentric circles attached at the center with a pin joint.  The smaller inner wheel is the axle/dumbbell handle and should collide with the wheel, ramps, etc.  The bigger, outer circle should be free to spin and not collide with anything (or just some things).

Do gyros react correctly to applied forces in WM2D?  I do not know.  But I can think of some simple tests to try. 

M.

I LOVE IT

Thanks M
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 16, 2009, 09:56:59 PM
I made a simple test setup to see the difference in the spinning effect.


- All circumstances are equal
- Weight and shape dont change
- Dumbell touches underground and object in 4 different ways
- Intresting results

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8oAN5cKHu8&feature=channel_page

Thanks for calling it the Aquariuz effect  8)

This is the dawning of a new age

Please mention me in your physics Nobel Prize acceptance speech  next year

 :)
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 16, 2009, 10:01:37 PM
Nice!  Intresting differences.

It is simple: the more spin, the more kinetic energy is passed on to the barrier, so when spin is created in the Abeling setup BY GRAVITY and centrifugal forces in a sufficient way the dumbbells WILL interact with the wheel upon impact.

The gyroscopical effect is so very interesting and opens a whole new can of.... possibilities
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 16, 2009, 10:03:42 PM
If all goes well I can produce my first real world test results with dumbbells and a ramp this weekend
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 16, 2009, 10:31:53 PM
@AquariuZ,

Quote
t is simple: the more spin, the more kinetic energy is passed on to the barrier, so when spin is created in the Abeling setup BY GRAVITY and centrifugal forces in a sufficient way the dumbbells WILL interact with the wheel upon impact.

I hope you don’t understand this in a sense that upon impact the spinning ball possess more kinetic energy than the ball not spinning. The well-established physical truth in the situation of this simulation is that the total sum of translational kinetic energy and the rotational energy (plus the heat losses) must be equal to the gravitational potential energy the ball had at the apex. If the program shows otherwise, it’s a flaw in the program and not a new discovery.

In this sense, it isn’t true that the more spin the more kinetic energy is passed on to the barrier. If you think the program is showing otherwise it’s an error in the program.

What may differ probably is the resultant velocity induced on the body being impacted upon after the impact by the moving body – the magnitude and direction of that velocity while preserving the amount of the total energy. I don’t see, however, how this will solve the problem of closing the loop in Abeling’s device.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: hansvonlieven on April 16, 2009, 11:15:15 PM
When you guys are talking about spin combined with a drop maybe you should be looking at something like a Yo-Yo.

Just a thought

Hans von Lieven
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AB Hammer on April 16, 2009, 11:22:59 PM
When you guys are talking about spin combined with a drop maybe you should be looking at something like a Yo-Yo.

Just a thought

Hans von Lieven

Hans

Water wheels have spin combined with drop.

 
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: hansvonlieven on April 16, 2009, 11:37:17 PM
No Alan, they don't.

The drop causes rotation in a separate device in a water wheel. In a Yo-Yo the drop actually causes the weight to rotate as it unwinds from the string. Different thing altogether.

Hans von Lieven
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AB Hammer on April 16, 2009, 11:45:51 PM
OK Hans

I stand corrected, I was thinking out of context. :-[ LOL
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 17, 2009, 12:03:02 AM
@mondrasek,

Could you please continue your thought from here: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7150.msg171965#msg171965. Probably you recall my post to you http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7150.msg171005#msg171005 in which, although no gyro effect was involved, nevertheless shows how the same gravitational potential energy can be spent once for a vertical displacement and, if appropriate construction is available, for a displacement sideways, at 90 degrees. So, suppose we spend part of the gravitational energy which the sphere had at the top to convert it into rotational at the bottom, what will be the construction for turning the wheel such that, by repeating this with each one of the spheres, it will accomplish a full turn (will close the loop). See, what I'm getting at is to explore the practical application for our purposes of the fact mentioned by you that the gyro will be deflected at 90 degrees compared to non-gyro impact. Do you have any concrete ideas in this practical aspect or you're just mentioning that 90 degree deflection as just food for thought? At this point I don't see any practical ramification for our purposes of that fact.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 17, 2009, 01:02:10 AM
LOL

This has more thrills in it than Indiana Jones

Look out for the wheel! Watch the ramp! Noo.

....just......cant......yes

 Cherrymans gears BTW enjoy the show

OK back to the egg...
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: mondrasek on April 17, 2009, 01:05:44 AM
@mondrasek,

Could you please continue your thought from here: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7150.msg171965#msg171965. Probably you recall my post to you http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7150.msg171005#msg171005 in which, although no gyro effect was involved, nevertheless shows how the same gravitational potential energy can be spent once for a vertical displacement and, if appropriate construction is available, for a displacement sideways, at 90 degrees. So, suppose we spend part of the gravitational energy which the sphere had at the top to convert it into rotational at the bottom, what will be the construction for turning the wheel such that, by repeating this with each one of the spheres, it will accomplish a full turn (will close the loop). See, what I'm getting at is to explore the practical application for our purposes of the fact mentioned by you that the gyro will be deflected at 90 degrees compared to non-gyro impact. Do you have any concrete ideas in this practical aspect or you're just mentioning that 90 degree deflection as just food for thought? At this point I don't see any practical ramification for our purposes of that fact.

It's definitely just food for thought, but with a few spices added that, though probably ground from the ignorant root, I thought intriguing.

In the current embodiments of the Abeling patent the weights encounter a force near the bottom of their fall through the right side of the wheel (in a clockwise turning wheel example like in the patent).  The force is due to the ramps that start to bring the weight closer to the axle.  When this ramp force is pushing straight up, the 90 degree reaction force could be straight to the left, aiding with the wheel's rotation.  As the weight rises up the ramp towards the 9 o'clock position the ramp is exerting a force on the weight that is to the right.  The 90 degree reaction force is now straight up, assisting in raising the weight:  Effectively lightly lifting the weight.  After this point, CF should push the weight back out to the rim in the sling shot trajectory.  I have not thought that through.  I'm not sure where the real force vectors acting on the weights are in this area.

I understand the concept of precession as it applies to gyroscopes and the 90 degree displacement reactions that result due to forces applied to one end of a gyroscope axle.  I have no idea how they apply if a force acts on both ends of the axle equally, or, in our case, if applied to the center of the axle with two weights spinning on the ends.

It was just food for though in the "How the hell could this work?" department.  I think we all agree the patent is for a non working devise *or* something is not disclosed in the patent.  This is one idea that is not disclosed that is also not ruled out by the patent.  Take from it what you will.

BTW, another work related road trip tomorrow so I do not know when I can respond to questions, criticism, and/or attacks.

M.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: mondrasek on April 17, 2009, 01:09:24 AM
... enjoy the show

This is one most excellent adventure!
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 17, 2009, 01:19:37 AM
This is one most excellent adventure!

I was laughing all the way up to frame 8000

Poor little ball
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: hansvonlieven on April 17, 2009, 01:19:57 AM
Neat AquariuZ,

Have a look at this one. Here we separate the centrifugal force from the force imparted by the drop. Notice how the wheel keeps spinning while the released centrifugal force propels the ball up a ramp.

Question is: Are the two forces added together more than the potential energy from the drop? You be the judge.

Hans von Lieven
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: broli on April 17, 2009, 01:23:00 AM
Has anyone contacted Sjack directly yet?
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: noonespecial on April 17, 2009, 01:34:18 AM

In the current embodiments of the Abeling patent the weights encounter a force near the bottom of their fall through the right side of the wheel (in a clockwise turning wheel example like in the patent).  The force is due to the ramps that start to bring the weight closer to the axle.  When this ramp force is pushing straight up, the 90 degree reaction force could be straight to the left, aiding with the wheel's rotation.  As the weight rises up the ramp towards the 9 o'clock position the ramp is exerting a force on the weight that is to the right.  The 90 degree reaction force is now straight up, assisting in raising the weight:  Effectively lightly lifting the weight.  After this point, CF should push the weight back out to the rim in the sling shot trajectory.  I have not thought that through.  I'm not sure where the real force vectors acting on the weights are in this area.


My question is with regard to the above is: After the weight develops it potential energy prior to the 6:00 position, isn't most (if not all) of that potential energy alledgedly transferred to the wheel in the form of kinetic energy? Also, as the weights travel in toward the center from 6:00 to 9:00 they lose acceleration. With regard to both of these points, how is it that there is any energy left to create any forward momentum beyond the 9:00 point, let alone any centrifugal acceleration?

Regards,
Charlie
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: persume on April 17, 2009, 01:36:23 AM
You boys are deluded. Enjoy the drinks cause the show aint free.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Cherryman on April 17, 2009, 01:52:43 AM
LOL

This has more thrills in it than Indiana Jones

Look out for the wheel! Watch the ramp! Noo.

....just......cant......yes

 Cherrymans gears BTW enjoy the show

OK back to the egg...

Geweldig!   ;D
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: hartiberlin on April 17, 2009, 02:59:52 AM
LOL

This has more thrills in it than Indiana Jones

Look out for the wheel! Watch the ramp! Noo.

....just......cant......yes

 Cherrymans gears BTW enjoy the show

OK back to the egg...

Well, a 20 Kg weight,
getting almost 3000 kG of 3 wheels running in an instant fast like this via a small
impact is probably a programm error.
IMO, The inertia with the 3 wheels is just too big to get them going this fast...

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: rlortie on April 17, 2009, 03:47:25 AM
Hans

Water wheels have spin combined with drop.

Alan,

The question is: what is the difference in spinning, rotating and revolving

Spin: to rotate or cause to rotate swiftly; twirl... To reel; whirl.
 
Rotate: To turn on an axis.

Revolve; To orbit a central point.

Water wheels exhibit rotation, they do not drop from their axis or orbit a central point which in this case is elliptical. .

Ralph 
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: fletcher on April 17, 2009, 03:47:53 AM
I think you are absolutely right Sefan - I played around with various weights etc & the inertia didn't appear to be calculating correctly as you suggest - even though some of us are looking for unusual results to peak our interest & suspicions the mundane chore of applying common sense can kill the party mood - that's why if you have something interesting & simple in wm you should build it & then input the data into the sim & tweak it till results match, IMO - if there truly is an unexpected result the real world build should show the effect & it should be able to be duplicated in the sim program reasonably accurately.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Dusty on April 17, 2009, 03:58:56 AM
Since my last video of my theory of operation, I have built a device.  It is not finished and that will take a few more days.  I changed some of my thinking on how it works since the patent was released just a couple days after my last video.  I need to build the tracks next and that will take a bunch of experimenting.  You have to realize this device is only a starting point.  If it works right off the bat, well fine, but otherwise I will rebuild the wheels and tracks as necessary.  There are several factors to consider such as diameter of wheel, placement of slots and their shape, weight of the dumbells and probably most important is the shape of the tracking system.

Video here:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAjWbVwmcXc

Thanks, Dusty.

(I have that user name because of all my woodworking I do.)
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 17, 2009, 04:19:49 AM
Last motor-less toy for now.

I gave up watching after 40 minutes or so...

Gets stuck now and again then starts again. Lost the beginning so no clue how it started..

The roof is to prevent the spheres going airborne

Bug or not, would make a nice screensaver

Ill send this to the guy at wm2d as well for comment (Yeah like he is going to state wm2d cannot handle elasticity in collissions)

Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: LarryC on April 17, 2009, 04:31:11 AM
Since my last video of my theory of operation, I have built a device.  It is not finished and that will take a few more days.  I changed some of my thinking on how it works since the patent was released just a couple days after my last video.  I need to build the tracks next and that will take a bunch of experimenting.  You have to realize this device is only a starting point.  If it works right off the bat, well fine, but otherwise I will rebuild the wheels and tracks as necessary.  There are several factors to consider such as diameter of wheel, placement of slots and their shape, weight of the dumbells and probably most important is the shape of the tracking system.

Video here:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAjWbVwmcXc

Thanks, Dusty.

(I have that user name because of all my woodworking I do.)

Hi Dusty,

Very nice build and good looking shop. I'm glad someone is building and nice to see that you're using one of Eisenficker2000 design and Sjack's Fig 8. When I'm freed up again, I wanted to start building again. Right now it is a toss up between continuing on Bob K's machine or starting with Sjack's. Bob K's design is more expensive (large pneumatic cylinders) than Sjack's so your attempt will help me decide. Please let us know both the successes and failures as it will be of great help to other physical builders.

Best of Success,
Larry 
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 17, 2009, 04:34:18 AM
Wow, @Dusty, you’re not kiddin’. Very skillfully crafted. I’m impressed. Wish you all the luck. Will be following your progress closely.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 17, 2009, 04:36:32 AM
Since my last video of my theory of operation, I have built a device.  It is not finished and that will take a few more days.  I changed some of my thinking on how it works since the patent was released just a couple days after my last video.  I need to build the tracks next and that will take a bunch of experimenting.  You have to realize this device is only a starting point.  If it works right off the bat, well fine, but otherwise I will rebuild the wheels and tracks as necessary.  There are several factors to consider such as diameter of wheel, placement of slots and their shape, weight of the dumbells and probably most important is the shape of the tracking system.

Video here:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAjWbVwmcXc

Thanks, Dusty.

(I have that user name because of all my woodworking I do.)

Awesome

Please keep in mind that the patent does not appear to display any design which would provide acceleration from gravity..Probably for a reason

Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 17, 2009, 04:47:33 AM
Neat AquariuZ,

Have a look at this one. Here we separate the centrifugal force from the force imparted by the drop. Notice how the wheel keeps spinning while the released centrifugal force propels the ball up a ramp.

Question is: Are the two forces added together more than the potential energy from the drop? You be the judge.

Hans von Lieven

In theory, no. But to show you the math I am not the one to do so..
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Justalabrat on April 17, 2009, 04:49:21 AM
Since my last video of my theory of operation, I have built a device.  It is not finished and that will take a few more days.  I changed some of my thinking on how it works since the patent was released just a couple days after my last video.  I need to build the tracks next and that will take a bunch of experimenting.  You have to realize this device is only a starting point.  If it works right off the bat, well fine, but otherwise I will rebuild the wheels and tracks as necessary.  There are several factors to consider such as diameter of wheel, placement of slots and their shape, weight of the dumbells and probably most important is the shape of the tracking system.

Video here:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAjWbVwmcXc

Thanks, Dusty.

(I have that user name because of all my woodworking I do.)

Nice build Dusty! :)

   Justalabrat
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 17, 2009, 04:49:57 AM
Hi Hans,

Rigid joints on 'Measurable' and air-resistance on 'Low speed' (after all, despite vacuum, there are internal losses, as @mondrasek emphasized on several occasions), ignoring the non-physical weight of the ball holder, and all is well and good. (see attached).
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: X00013 on April 17, 2009, 05:48:42 AM
@ Hans, valid point point about the yoyo. Its all connected. If only you could find a video about a build researching gravity induced cf forces.   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2LxSGlLvL8
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: i_ron on April 17, 2009, 05:53:53 AM
My question is with regard to the above is: After the weight develops it potential energy prior to the 6:00 position, isn't most (if not all) of that potential energy alledgedly transferred to the wheel in the form of kinetic energy? Also, as the weights travel in toward the center from 6:00 to 9:00 they lose acceleration. With regard to both of these points, how is it that there is any energy left to create any forward momentum beyond the 9:00 point, let alone any centrifugal acceleration?

Regards,
Charlie

Charlie,

I am glad you have come around to agreeing with me.  It is hard to follow mondrasek in the above as he (they) were mixing in gyros. But the basic statement as to 6:00 to 9:00 in Abeling's wheel is that
once started up the ramp the weight, because it is having it's orbit made smaller, will increase its
velocity. This will drive the wheel in this 6:00 to 9:00 position.

But as I suggested before, there is no centrifugal sling effect between 9:00 and 12:00, (as you now
ask). If there were, the weights would fly out at 10:00 and beyond, right? They don't. Witness the
ramp changes from an outside ramp at 9:00 to an inside ramp so as the weight won't FALL into
the the axle end of the slot.

The unbalance drives the wheel in the 2:00 to 5:00 position, the 'orbit change' drives the wheel in the
6:00 to 9:00 position and the wheel uses these two forces to lift the weights from 9:00 to 12:00.

Ron



Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 17, 2009, 06:47:12 AM
@All,

In a slight, what may may seem as, support of @mondrasek's gyroscope conjecture. Does anyone recall the controversy started with the paper by Hayasaka H. and Takeuchi S., Phys.Rev.Lett., 63, 2701-2704 (1989) and its suspiciously fast "debunking", at that not even using the same setup (Fuller J.E. et al, Phys.Rev.Lett., 64, 825-826 (1990); Quinn T.J. and Picard A., Nature, 732-735 (1990))? Hayasaka and Takeuchi claimed experimental mass reduction in spinning gyroscopes for one sense of rotation. One should note, however, that even if such effect were real it isn't likely to be applicable in our case where the induced spinning can hardly be of a magnitude for the above mass reduction effect, even if real, to be detectable.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 17, 2009, 02:22:27 PM
@All,

In a slight, what may may seem as, support of @mondrasek's gyroscope conjecture. Does anyone recall the controversy started with the paper by Hayasaka H. and Takeuchi S., Phys.Rev.Lett., 63, 2701-2704 (1989) and its suspiciously fast "debunking", at that not even using the same setup (Fuller J.E. et al, Phys.Rev.Lett., 64, 825-826 (1990); Quinn T.J. and Picard A., Nature, 732-735 (1990))? Hayasaka and Takeuchi claimed experimental mass reduction in spinning gyroscopes for one sense of rotation. One should note, however, that even if such effect were real it isn't likely to be applicable in our case where the induced spinning can hardly be of a magnitude for the above mass reduction effect, even if real, to be detectable.

YES

This does ring a bell, thanks for posting the details about this.  Again all the more interesting when taking all factors into account .

I am currently working on the initial "egg" model to see if I can find the optimal configuration where hopefully we should see something extraordinary. Note I do not expect to see any Hayasaka / Takeuchi mass reduction effect in a model. I do however expect to see "something" in a correct real world setup.

But hopefully modeling can be used in finding this setup including the correct paths the weights need to travel to achieve the imbalance which will accelerate the carrier.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: Omnibus on April 17, 2009, 02:35:46 PM
YES

This does ring a bell, thanks for posting the details about this.  Again all the more interesting when taking all factors into account .

I am currently working on the initial "egg" model to see if I can find the optimal configuration where hopefully we should see something extraordinary. Note I do not expect to see any Hayasaka / Takeuchi mass reduction effect in a model. I do however expect to see "something" in a correct real world setup.

But hopefully modeling can be used in finding this setup including the correct paths the weights need to travel to achieve the imbalance which will accelerate the carrier.

Yes. The "egg" model is the way to go. The devil is in the proper form of the track, if that is to be real. Hayasaki-Takeuchi mass-reduction effect is just a curiosity and is irrelevant here even it it's real.
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: AquariuZ on April 17, 2009, 02:49:54 PM
Yes. The "egg" model is the way to go. The devil is in the proper form of the track, if that is to be real. Hayasaki-Takeuchi mass-reduction effect is just a curiosity and is irrelevant here even it it's real.

I disagree because I think it could cause an imbalance in a spinning carrier

Acceleration...!
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: 3decimal14 on April 17, 2009, 03:48:04 PM
Take a look at this pages, could that be the right egg-shape?
http://www.evert.de/eft778e.htm
http://www.evert.de/eft782e.htm

/Tommy
Title: Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
Post by: noonespecial on April 17, 2009, 03:53:16 PM
Since my last video of my theory of operation, I have built a device.  It is not finished and that will take a few more days.  I changed some of my thinking on how it works since the patent was released just a couple days after my last video.  I need to build the tracks next and that will take a bunch of experimenting.  You have to realize this device is only a starting point.  If it works right off the bat, well fine, but otherwise I will rebuild the wheels and tracks as necessary.  There are several factors to consider such as diameter of wheel, placement of slots and their shape, weight of the dumbells and probably most important is the shape of the tracking system.

Video here:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAjWbVwmcXc

Thanks, Dusty.

(I have that user name because of all my woodworking I do.)

I'd like to echo the positive sentiment with regard to someone finally attempting to biuld one of these. You've done a fantastic job so far. My only suggestion might be with regard to the ends of the 'hockey-stick' cutouts. There doesn't appear to be a lot of 'meat' left between the cutout and the edge of the wheel. If these 5 pound weights get flying with any force, they could easily break this area out. You might want to add some strapping along the edge in these areas. Just a sugges