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Author Topic: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant  (Read 823328 times)

X00013

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #810 on: April 16, 2009, 06:24:23 AM »
Hi All,
I have tried to model the Bob machine over here:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=2326.msg171876#msg171876

Still need some help with the model.
There is still a motor attached to get the disc to speed
and the rope pulleys are not yet correct, so the weights are not yet
pulled up correctly.

Maybe someone can fix it.
Many thanks in advance.

Regards, Stefan.

Sorry but your efforts r valient and fruitless with wm2d on this build, wm2d cannot emulate pneumatics, nor there delayed response to CF forces.

Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #811 on: April 16, 2009, 06:33:19 AM »
@Omni , ur havin too much fun with this, I just had to chime in. If you want to draft try http://www.solidedge.eu.com/isapi/pagegen.dll/pages?page=free_2d

Its a free full working 30 day trial, save as dxf, then import from working model. I've been running all the various models, in 2d and 3d, with better physics engines than wm2d. If I find somthing  I will post it. I have found the wheel wants to run backwards, kinda reminds me off the "ball race", shorter path or greater distance with gravityt? Speed and distance wins every time! Like u said somewhat, the math of my pc is determining the physics, which reminds me, u all need a kick ass graphics card and kick ass processer and tons of memory to get good results in ANY physics program. thank u n good nite

Thanks, buddy. Will have to try it sometime. I have SolidWorks but haven't tried it either. Now I'm struggling with AutoCAD. Not a straightforward thing. Anyway. Hope all is well with you and good night 2 u 2.

Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #812 on: April 16, 2009, 06:38:13 AM »
Hi All,
I have tried to model the Bob machine over here:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=2326.msg171876#msg171876

Still need some help with the model.
There is still a motor attached to get the disc to speed
and the rope pulleys are not yet correct, so the weights are not yet
pulled up correctly.

Maybe someone can fix it.
Many thanks in advance.

Regards, Stefan.

Stefan, this device, unfortunately, has elements such as springs as well as collisions which cannot be modeled well with wm2d, as was found out. Wonder how fruitful it would be to pursue modeling it? Seems like the worst kind of example there could possibly be to model w/ wm2d.

X00013

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #813 on: April 16, 2009, 07:12:18 AM »
@ all, dont put to much merit in ur PC's ability to calculate fictitious forces (IE. CF, ), just a heads up, it's not a "bug" in the program. It's a combination of the PC's inability to calculate school book numbers with what really happens. Game engines rock, wm2d suks, to put it lite--lee!!!!!

xnonix

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #814 on: April 16, 2009, 08:29:31 AM »
For all of you making models with wm2d keep this into account.

Rigid joints have a bug I demostrated long time ago. The thing is to use 2 pin joints instead separated as much as posible one another.

The model is beatifull but I don't trust wm2d for all the experiments I did.

When I have the time I will do an power study in your models.

AquariuZ

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #815 on: April 16, 2009, 08:57:46 AM »
When I have the time I will do an power study in your models.

If you could have a look at the list of same models with all possible materials I posted that would be great

This remains unanswered as far as I am concerned.

Thanks

Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #816 on: April 16, 2009, 10:13:52 AM »
If you could have a look at the list of same models with all possible materials I posted that would be great

This remains unanswered as far as I am concerned.

Thanks

I thought it's already established that wm2d is unfit for models with elastic collisions and with springs. To obtain physically consistent results in such cases palliative measures such as turning on air resistance, adding bumpers etc, have to be taken. Also, the rigid joints must be Measurable and not Optimized.

AquariuZ

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #817 on: April 16, 2009, 01:38:42 PM »
I thought it's already established that wm2d is unfit for models with elastic collisions and with springs. To obtain physically consistent results in such cases palliative measures such as turning on air resistance, adding bumpers etc, have to be taken. Also, the rigid joints must be Measurable and not Optimized.


No that is not established at all, what gives you that idea?

If you look again you will find that all real world settings are active.

All default material matching elasticity used.

So again, not answered.

Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #818 on: April 16, 2009, 01:51:02 PM »
No that is not established at all, what gives you that idea?

If you look again you will find that all real world settings are active.

All default material matching elasticity used.

So again, not answered.

It's not a matter of whether or not the settings are correct. There are intrinsic problems with the algorithm of the program itself which were demonstrated by several examples, including yours. Whenever springs or elastic collisions are involved additional measures have to be taken, such as turning on air resistance, adding bumpers and who knows what else to obtain a physically meaningful result. In your case to have the model exhibit the behavior known for ideally elastic collision the elasticity number you have to plug in is physically unrealistic, that is, has to be much less than 1. So, in your case, you have to plug in a physically unrealistic value in order to get a physically meaningful result. Same thing with springs -- you have to exclude the machine from working in vacuum in order to have a physically consistent result. That's non-physical and demonstrates the weakness of the program in such cases. I don't think we should continue with these curiosities whose only merit is revealing the weaknesses of wm2d. At this point the sensible path is to deal with your egg-shaped examples where practically there are no elastic collisions essential for the model and there are no springs and other known issues with wm2d. Besides, these are the models applicable to the discussion at hand -- Abeling's patent.

Alexioco

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #819 on: April 16, 2009, 02:00:41 PM »
Would it just be better if the design was built and tested? After all, trying to get peretual motion on wm2d is harder than real life because not only do you have to solve the problem, but work around the faults of the program.

Alex

Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #820 on: April 16, 2009, 02:09:25 PM »
Would it just be better if the design was built and tested? After all, trying to get peretual motion on wm2d is harder than real life because not only do you have to solve the problem, but work around the faults of the program.

Alex

In the case of @AquariuZ' egg-shaped model the program hasn't shown faults. Knowing this, it's obviously better to try the various forms of the track, weights, materials, dimensions etc. first on a computer model rather than spend money and effort on innumerable real world models.

Alexioco

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #821 on: April 16, 2009, 03:00:35 PM »
In the case of @AquariuZ' egg-shaped model the program hasn't shown faults. Knowing this, it's obviously better to try the various forms of the track, weights, materials, dimensions etc. first on a computer model rather than spend money and effort on innumerable real world models.

Oh, well yes, if theres no faults then it is better, hows it coming anyway, I havnt seen it because I dont have the program, wont let me have it...


Alex

Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #822 on: April 16, 2009, 03:21:02 PM »
Oh, well yes, if theres no faults then it is better, hows it coming anyway, I havnt seen it because I dont have the program, wont let me have it...


Alex

No joy yet. If there's anything noteworthy we would post it on youtube for people like you who don't have wm2d.

mondrasek

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #823 on: April 16, 2009, 03:27:15 PM »
Missed a day due to a real life work trip.  But here is the first of two post for you all:

With regards to WM2D.  It is a very valuable tool that can be very helpful if used correctly.  To use it correctly you have to have some engineering knowledge of the parameters.  Please do not dismiss it as causing errors or having bad algorithms.  That simply is not the case.

Springs.  Using an ideal spring in WM2D can cause issues.  But then again, there is no such thing as an ideal spring in real life!  If so, you would be able to deflect such a spring (in a vaccum) and watch it oscillate forever.  But it will not.  That is because in the case of all real springs there is an internal resistance/friction that causes some sort of dampening.  Using dampeners and/or air resistance in WM2D makes their theoretical (yet impossible) springs actually behave more like real world springs.  So using dampeners is not a bug work around.  Using springs without dampeners can create sim world instabilities that can be corrected with proper engineering knowledge.

Collisions.  Elasticity is an actual property of every real material.  And no material has a value or 0 or 1 elasticity.  So again, if you model with elasticity of 0 and/or 1 you should expect results that are also fictional.

Pins vs. Rigid joint.  WM2D must calculated interactions through an iterative process, one by one.  This induces error and cannot be avoided.  But the error can be minimized.  Using two pins spread as far apart as possible will minimize the error.  I won't go into the reasons again, but just understand that it is a more robust way to model the behavior of fixing the three degrees of rotation we deal with in 2D sims.  Again, not a bug.  Just a mathematical fact.  As with every sim, there are various ways to model each interaction.  It may take some engineering knowledge or experience to figure out the best method.  Modeling exactly how you would expect to build a device in the real world is not necessarily the best way to model something in a sim.  This is because the sim has the limitations of working calculations one by one using a relatively large time step.  In order to get the best results, the time step must be made so small that you would need supercomputer processing speeds in order to see a sim in anything close to real time.  Simulations are what supercomputers are used for!  So don't expect your PC to be able to keep up.  But do learn the best way to model each interaction to minimize the errors.  Note:  Why are solid joints so hard to model?  Because in the real world everything (EVERYTHING!) bends a bit when subjected to a force.  So the rigid joints in the sim are also something that does not exist in the real world.

M.

mondrasek

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #824 on: April 16, 2009, 03:40:51 PM »
Now for the fun post! 

AquariuZ appears to have begun to investigate this idea already:  What if the missing interaction comes from the weights being gyroscopes?  Take the dumbbell shape and let it spin around the axis of the handle.  Why?  Because gyros still have mass and therefore their whole body will react to gravity and fall and cause a wheel to rotate like any other weight.  But when a force is applied to a gyro the equal and opposite reaction force is in a 90 degree direction to the force on a regular object.  So when you push a gyro it does not move in the direction of the force.  It moves to the side.

In the lifting portion of Abeling's (and others) gravity wheel design the wheel, ramps, etc. are pushing on the weights in order to lift them up again.  If those weights were gyros the reaction of the wheel, ramps, etc would not be in the expected direction, but 90 degrees to it.

How to model a gyro in WM2D?  Replace the current round weights with two concentric circles attached at the center with a pin joint.  The smaller inner wheel is the axle/dumbbell handle and should collide with the wheel, ramps, etc.  The bigger, outer circle should be free to spin and not collide with anything (or just some things).

Do gyros react correctly to applied forces in WM2D?  I do not know.  But I can think of some simple tests to try. 

M.