Storing Cookies (See : http://ec.europa.eu/ipg/basics/legal/cookies/index_en.htm ) help us to bring you our services at overunity.com . If you use this website and our services you declare yourself okay with using cookies .More Infos here:
https://overunity.com/5553/privacy-policy/
If you do not agree with storing cookies, please LEAVE this website now. From the 25th of May 2018, every existing user has to accept the GDPR agreement at first login. If a user is unwilling to accept the GDPR, he should email us and request to erase his account. Many thanks for your understanding

User Menu

Custom Search

Author Topic: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant  (Read 823423 times)

Cherryman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 642
Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #570 on: April 13, 2009, 11:36:54 AM »
Like I said, if you zero out the velocities of both the disc and the profiled polygon affixed to the disc the problem seems solved -- after reset these velocities are zero.

I understand the theory, but WHERE do i zero out them?

Those Vx Vy and V0  numbers? Of the object properties?

Cherryman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 642
Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #571 on: April 13, 2009, 11:38:09 AM »
Meanwhile check out this one:


Omnibus

  • elite_member
  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5330
Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #572 on: April 13, 2009, 11:42:25 AM »
I change them in Properties for both elements. Seems to work.

Omnibus

  • elite_member
  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5330
Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #573 on: April 13, 2009, 11:50:31 AM »
Don't forget to zero out the velocities of the spheres as well. Very annoying.

Grimer

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 462
    • Frank Grimer's Website
Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #574 on: April 13, 2009, 12:09:41 PM »

It's quite amusing now that we know one can construct a PMM (perpetual motion machine)  to read articles like this one .....

http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/museum/overbal.htm

 .....  which tell you why you can't.  ::)

Omnibus

  • elite_member
  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5330
Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #575 on: April 13, 2009, 12:48:04 PM »
@Cherryman,

We should try to be as close to the patent as possible. So far @AquariuZ' seems to be the closest (see attached).  Seems the grooves have to be slimmer when compared to those in the patent. Also, the form of the guide (the barrier) is slightly different at the ends (no counter guide (barrier) to form that egg oval appears to exist in the patent). Wonder if we could make one model exactly as shown in Fig.2 of the patent?

Omnibus

  • elite_member
  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5330
Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #576 on: April 13, 2009, 12:57:48 PM »
By the way, how do you scale down the dimensions. @mondrasek was quite right, we have to take care of the dimensions of the rotor.Is @AquariuZ' rotor 200m indeed or I'm reading it wrong?

mondrasek

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1301
Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #577 on: April 13, 2009, 02:15:02 PM »
There is an issue with Wm2d that when you scale too small constraints break so much easier, this has to do with accuracy settings. It stops being fun when you get hit by integrator errors all the time.

I would try large scale first and then scale down to actual size, but that's just me

In the accuracy setting change the Integration Error size from the default of .001 to .0001 or .00001 (or lower if you have to).  The sim runs slower, but also much more accurate.  You definitely need the Integration Error size lower than the smallest interference you can handle.  When the sim calculates the move of an object it will allow it to enter other objects it is supposed to collide with a small amount (smaller than the Integration Error size I think).  If that interference object then also moves and increases the overlap of the two objects, that is when the sim pukes.

I don't know how much more I can stress that you need to be modeling at the proper scale!  Think of it this way:  When you scale down a wheel, the Centrifugal Forces also scale down.  But Gravity does not scale down!  So you cannot scale a Gravity Wheel design that uses CF and expect the same performance at all.  Designing in anything but the proper scale is mostly a wasted effort.

Keep in mind that I also draw my CAD models with a wheel around 1000 units in radius, since working within this range of numbers is easier for me.  But I scale the entire thing by .001 before importing to WM2D.  Then the wheel is only 2 meters in diameter.  It's that easy.

M.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2009, 03:00:54 PM by mondrasek »

AquariuZ

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 645
Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #578 on: April 13, 2009, 02:55:40 PM »
Morning, Afternoon, Evening all

I slept through my alarm  >:( 14:23 local

Abeling patent papers everywhere * Nightmares about OU bunnies  * Wife wants a divorce

What a mess

@Cherryman to reset velocities or change properties for a group of objects select those objects with left mouse and ctrl for multiples. Then double click on any selected to get a mixed materials property window. Enter zero in the last three velocity fields to reset Vx Vy and Vo (axials and rotational) or if you want to change the materials just do so and all objects will be under same material.

It is a pity that there is no glass material in wm2d but there is ice.

@m: you are right ofcourse, but the scaling down, with a correct integrator error is not something my system can handle, and it slows down to around one frame per minute, even with frame skipping. So... Even though your argument makes perfect sense, I use the large scales to determine the optimal paths and polygon smoothing, and will then throw it in here at the correct scale for you all verify.

@Omnibus: If you cannot select an object because it is blocked from view or overlap just select any object and go to the first field in the properties window which contains a multiple selector field. Look for the object there in the list and select it. Then use Object -> move to front to make it visible. Alternatively move the blocking objects to the back with the same function. Stationary objects should be anchored, not pinned.
The less polygons the better so combine when you can.

I think I will start all over again because I want a wheel as in FIG 8 (maybe 10 meters diameter because M is right) Going to look what Cherryman has been up to..

AquariuZ

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 645
Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #579 on: April 13, 2009, 03:04:03 PM »
By the way, how do you scale down the dimensions. @mondrasek was quite right, we have to take care of the dimensions of the rotor.Is @AquariuZ' rotor 200m indeed or I'm reading it wrong?

You are right. I stole the wheel from Cherryman and I really like it. But I will start again and make it a little smaller. I wish I had a desktop CRAY system. (Running Linux ofcourse ;D )

AquariuZ

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 645
Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #580 on: April 13, 2009, 03:07:39 PM »
Keep in mind that I also draw my CAD models with a wheel around 1000 units in radius, since working within this range of numbers is easier for me.  But I scale the entire thing by .001 before importing to WM2D.  Then the wheel is only 2 meters in diameter.  It's that easy.

M.

I believe I have AutoCad lying around somewhere. Would it be worthwile to design in AutoCad and then import DXF? Or is it too much hassle (not an autoCAD user)

AquariuZ

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 645
Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #581 on: April 13, 2009, 03:12:32 PM »
I Fixed the file



Now that´s an egg. Great thanks!

mondrasek

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1301
Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #582 on: April 13, 2009, 03:58:48 PM »
I believe I have AutoCad lying around somewhere. Would it be worthwile to design in AutoCad and then import DXF? Or is it too much hassle (not an autoCAD user)

Well, there is definitely a learning curve.  I'd say it would be good to learn for the long run, but doubt you'd enjoy the frustration for this current project.  Alternatively, Cherryman can continue generating models for all in Rhino.  I only used that ages ago for file format translation, and am not sure about the learning curve.  It is not free but had a free 30 day evaluation at that time.

Anyone know of a free 2D CAD or drawing package that is:

1)  Simple to learn
2)  Can accurately draw all the basic 2D geometric shapes and elements
3)  Has basic editing tools like cut, extend, trim, move, copy, mirror, array, offset, scale, etc.
4)  Can export as DXF

?

Or any simple CAD or drawing package that offers a free trial period with the same features?

The inability to accurately size and place objects in WM2D frustrated the hell out of me at first.  But using CAD also has it's issues.  Sometimes it is easier to rotate objects in WM2D when they are already tied together with constraints.  But if you export out of WM2D in dxf and then reopen in CAD you lose accuracy.  So EVERY change you want to keep in WM2D needs to be done in CAD first and then imported. Or else you begin to degrade in accuracy along the way.

I'd also still recommend bumping up the Integration Error in your sims as far as you can stand.  At least when you are zeroing in on a final design and not just doing gross testing.  Better to let it take a few minutes to generate accurate frames than to show quick inaccurate ones that may lead you to think you have a desired effect that does not exist.  But, of course, down and dirty is fine for initial testing.  Just like the slot profiles in Abeling's video wheel.

M.

oscar

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 128
    • Latest News
free CAD programme
« Reply #583 on: April 13, 2009, 04:20:24 PM »
Anyone know of a free 2D CAD or drawing package that is:

1)  Simple to learn
2)  Can accurately draw all the basic 2D geometric shapes and elements
3)  Has basic editing tools like cut, extend, trim, move, copy, mirror, array, offset, scale, etc.
4)  Can export as DXF

qcad community release.
interface and handling are much like autocad.
file format is dxf.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qcad
download windows binary from:
http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=240145

Grimer

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 462
    • Frank Grimer's Website
Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #584 on: April 13, 2009, 04:35:45 PM »
I predict that all computer modelling will be unsuccessful since it uses the laws of mechanics as we know them.

I believe there is an additional law governing the interaction between gravitational acceleration and inertial mass of which we are not yet aware. Something like the law of magnetic induction, say, discovered by Faraday. Every Sunday I am privileged to pass by the shop where he worked as an apprentice bookbinder two centuries ago.

However, don't let me put you off your worthy herculean task. Even negative demonstrations are worth having because if the Abeling motor does prove to be a goer it will lead people to ask why their mathematical models failed.