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Author Topic: Resonnant circuits in cascade.  (Read 64669 times)

thrival

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Re: Resonnant circuits in cascade.
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2006, 02:59:30 PM »
IcyBlue; you said:
Quote
But even if the reactance of the L/C combination would go close to zero - what it hardly does - you are still left with the ohmic resistance  that burns your energy and damps the circuit - in addition to the energy that is lost and is radiated off the circuit. Even if you use a negative *differential* resistance element (tunnel diode, gas discharge) to undamp the circuit, the oscillation will only be sustained as long as you provide the supply voltage to it. Shut down the supply, and the oscillation will stop. If the circuit would draw energy from somewhere else - as OU circuits are supposed to do so - the oscillation would continue.

We have no intention of shutting down the supply. The circuit DOES draw energy from outside itself, via secondary inductors.
Think of an inductor as an infinitely variable flywheel. Now a parallel resonant tank doesn't produce FE per se; it is only manifesting
an alternating "springyness" between its two components. Those high currents at source voltage are only what might be called
artificial or 'virtuall power' because like you said, as soon as the source signal is removed, the oscillations die out.

But the same high currents in the resonant tank can be used to creat REAL power by INDUCING a correspondingly large field in a
secondary coil. The secondary sucks energy in from the ether (flywheel effect); that's what a tesla coil is and does. Do you deny that?
Certainly the increase in power doesn't solely derive from the primary tank. Do you think tesla was shooting lightening bolts from his
Colorado springs tower, using nothing but what he input? Tesla coil builders know better. Yes, resonant tanks can be used to amplify
power. I would advise you study exactly what a tesla coil is and does. They are deceptively simple. Anyway the increase is more than
we started with-- FE. So the same principle can be used to build resonant tank circuits that "spill over" into further stages, as Henry
Moray did. I'm tired of people making this so esoteric. Mathematical models don't always reflect reality, at least not until they
include enough factors to model reality accurately. If we have a prejudice against the very thing we hope to prove, well that's an
emotional problem that could keep us from ever getting there. It's no true representation of reality per se.

The methernitha testatika is well documented. Beyond the spinning and the static, it does seem to amplify power somehow. I assert
that occurs in resonant stages.

What's the point of posting a link for resonant heating? I mean who doesn't know that coils get hot at high amps in the khz range.
Heating effects aren't the objective. Even the utilities seem to've found a way around the heat problem, but resonance will
occasionally fry a transformer. That's why it's a problem for them. What it reveals is that resonance releases a tremendous amount
of energy! They're not looking to exploit, but suppress it.

$1 million isn't enough if it gets you killed, which seems to happen to a lot of OU types. Free energy puts not just millions, but
billions of fortunes, at risk. Last year Exxon made more profits than 125 countries. Please quit with the superficial
understandings.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2006, 06:35:37 PM by thrival »

Elvis Oswald

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Re: Resonnant circuits in cascade.
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2006, 10:06:35 PM »
On the subject of Tesla coils... personally I think that solid-state coils are a pretty toy.  Can they duplicate what a spark-gap coil can do?  Maybe... but first, I think it wise to duplicate what Tesla did with what he used. :)

What Tesla did was to oscillate energy to amplify it.  He discharged high voltage into the earth, where it bounced off the other side of the globe and returned to his coil.  He had calculated and correctly predicted the time it would take to do that... and the energy that would be left after the trip.  This residual power (X-loss) was then added to another (X) at every cycle.
This power bounced between the top of his tower and the other side of the earth... and his lightning bolts got bigger and bigger.  This is how he set the record for man-made lightning.

But he was using free electricity from the local power station... until he fried their generators with this experiment.

Now this is much the same as a voltage doubler on a microwave oven.  And I guess it is not such an amazing thing... since you are only saving energy until it gets to the size you need.

But, when you consider that there is a potential between an antenna and a ground... then you see that this "stray voltage" that ham radio operators see as an annoyance.... what most people laugh at and say,"what can you do with such low power?"   You might see that this can be used for real work.

I do realize that low power is still low power... and if the rate of consumption is high... then you will quickly use stored energy... leaving you with only a low power source.
But how much power can you get from an antenna and a ground?
This is where the resonance comes into play.

Yes you can suck power from a broadcast signal.  So why not use the 7.43Hz wave that is bouncing around the resonating cavity of the atmosphere?  It's obvious that this paticular frequency contains tremendous power.

And yes - I will be experimentinig.  But it is better to consider all factors and start with a very good experiment, than to run off with half an idea and waste time and money and get discouraged.

I do not claim to have the answer (yet) - I am just collecting facts and discussing them.  Maybe someone has insight that I had not considered.






thrival

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Re: Resonnant circuits in cascade.
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2006, 01:47:42 AM »
Elvis,

Just input your signal into a cascade of three resonant parallel tanks,
coupled via secondary windings, each stage more robust to handle
the power increase. The last stage resonant coil can couple to a
final secondary, leads to which you attach your load. Don't ground
anything but your antennae. Tesla built circuits like this.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2006, 02:03:17 AM by thrival »

Elvis Oswald

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Re: Resonnant circuits in cascade.
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2006, 02:01:26 AM »
That sounds like a plan.  Now I just have to settle on an antenna design.  :)

thrival

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Re: Resonnant circuits in cascade.
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2006, 02:33:43 AM »
Elvis:

Thought you might find this handy; from

http://www.padrak.com/ine/NEN_6_8_10.html

You might want to start with the higher frequencies
(which contain more energy) and tune additional
stages to lower harmonics, stepping the frequency
down while extracting the power. A diode in your
antennae, containing a mix of conductive metal and
phosphor powder from an old CRT, might have
some interesting effects.

« Last Edit: February 23, 2006, 05:19:46 AM by thrival »

Elvis Oswald

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Re: Resonnant circuits in cascade.
« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2006, 08:15:26 AM »
Thanks!    Also...

After reading Meyl... which you have probably heard of... he says that Tesla said 12Hz - and his own testing (Meyl) confirmed - that it is indeed 12Hz.  But either way... 12 or 7.43 (give or take) - the sizes of components will be close.

So... calculating the freq. at 12 Hz... and just grabbing a number of 1henries on the inductor (this would be about the primary on a A/C step-down transfomer (US) - and the cap is 175 microfarads (rounded up :)

« Last Edit: February 23, 2006, 08:58:15 AM by Elvis Oswald »

thrival

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Re: Resonnant circuits in cascade.
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2006, 01:12:18 AM »
Hi Elvis.

Well I'm sure you did your homework there and won't disagree.

All I'll say is that there is much more energy in high frequency waves,
even at tiny voltages, than low frequency ones. If you start with
high frequency, you can step it down through resonant stages
tuned to progressively lower fundamentals, and have way more at
your output (like frequency multipliers in reverse.)

Here might be an interesting experiment; string an antennae,
ground it, insert a phosphor-conductor diode mentioned. Take a
frequency counter and measure the natural rate occurring across
your diode. That's your input f  that your first resonant stage
should be tuned to. Each further tuned stage should decrease
the previous rate by half. You'll need to vary the winding ratios in
each secondary to get the V/I you want. Output can be clamped
and peak detected thrice, for steady DC out.

magnetoelastic

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Re: Resonnant circuits in cascade.
« Reply #22 on: February 24, 2006, 05:25:19 PM »
Please, people, pick up a first year EE text and learn the difference between voltage, energy and power.  Yes, you can put a lot of _energy_ into cascaded resonant circuits, but there is _NO_ power gain, regardless of what voltage comes out of the coil.  A resonant coil is like a kid on a swing - with tiny pushes over time you can get him swinging very high.  But he is not extracting any power, 'zero-point' or not, from the ether!  Same with a Tesla coil.

If you recall back to Tesla's Colorado Springs coil experiment, he ended up burning up the local utility generator to power his resonant coil.  This is because he was DRAWING power from the utility, not from the earth, not from the 'zero point', not from the 'ether'.  The big sparks he got from the cascaded resonant circuit were from magnification of VOLTAGE not POWER.


magnetoelastic

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Re: Resonnant circuits in cascade.
« Reply #23 on: February 24, 2006, 05:37:14 PM »
Now, as far as extracting energy from the Earth's Schuman resonances, keep in mind that you need an antenna.  The efficiency of an antenna is proportional to the square of its length as a fraction of a wavelength.  An antenna as tall as my house will only be ONE TRILLIONTH of a percent efficient.  That is 0.0000000000001%.  This is why Schuman resonance waves do not blow out the front end of my ham gear.

Elvis Oswald

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Re: Resonnant circuits in cascade.
« Reply #24 on: February 24, 2006, 07:36:41 PM »
If you would put down you EE book - and read this entire thread... you will see that the circuit we are talking about building includes a source.  That would be an antenna.  :)  So yes - we are talking about multiplying the power at the expense of a source.

Even so - do not rule out some interesting anomalies when the circuit and the source are resonating.

Your ham gear is grounded - or else it might just blow up.  I've seen voltage on a 100' loop of 40v... and you feel it when you touch it.
Call it what you like... that is power. :)
So I am not talking about voodoo... or zpe... I am talking about reality.  And yes, it is a matter of scale - but that is just a matter of time and experimentation.

I just read about a lab that has slowed a particle of light... and they are working to utilize it in a new type of computer.  Before they did that... you might have said the same things to them.   ::)

« Last Edit: February 24, 2006, 07:55:00 PM by Elvis Oswald »

Elvis Oswald

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Re: Resonnant circuits in cascade.
« Reply #25 on: February 24, 2006, 08:04:30 PM »
And - on the subject of Tesla... yes he was using power.  I did not leave that out in my description of his experiment... so I do not know what your point was...

But here's another lesson from Tesla.  With his coil - he produced a cold electricity that he could step up 10,000 times per foot of his coil.
This is the same cold electricity produced with tesla coils anyone can build... and you can touch it without being shocked... and YET - a plate of sheet metal in the field of this coil will have a current induced in it that will light an incandescent bulb. :)

When your EE book can explain that - then you talk to me.  :)  Otherwise... I suggest that you do not know everything. 

magnetoelastic

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Re: Resonnant circuits in cascade.
« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2006, 09:23:46 PM »
When I was a broadcast engineer, an old-timer showed me a really cool trick.  He walked over to the base of the antenna tower of a 10 KW AM station, and, holding a regular lead penciil in his hand, drew a three inch arc from the tower to the tip of his pencil.  The graphite tip of his pencil soon became red hot, and after four or five seconds, he withdrew the pencil - its tip still smoking.  He handed me the pencil so I could repeat the same stunt.  The body of the pencil - and my hand - became only slightly warm from the RF.

Electricity is electricity, and is neither cold nor hot.  Electricity does have volts, current and frequency, and certain combinations thereof behave in ways that are startling if you've never experienced them before.


magnetoelastic

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Re: Resonnant circuits in cascade.
« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2006, 09:36:51 PM »
I've built probably a dozen tesla coils - including one that was 12 feet tall, wound with Litz wire, and fed from a 16 kW transmitter.  It ended up heating the rebar in the concrete floor so hot the soles of my shoes melted.  I've also worked on multi-megawatt shortwave transmitters.  The trick there is to KEEP them from becoming tesla coils.  There is nothing I've ever seen in my hobbyist tesla coil experiments that I haven't also seen in a high power shortwave transmitter - in a much bigger way.

magnetoelastic

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Re: Resonnant circuits in cascade.
« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2006, 09:49:24 PM »
  I've seen voltage on a 100' loop of 40v... and you feel it when you touch it.
Call it what you like... that is power. :)


No, that IS my point! Voltage is NOT power.  If you terminate this 100' loop with, say, a 50 ohm resistor, then you can correlate voltage and power, but not until then.

Elvis Oswald

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Re: Resonnant circuits in cascade.
« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2006, 10:07:48 PM »
Voltage is not power.  The 40v is just voltage.  But I contend that if it shocks you, then it is voltage moving current - right?

So now we are only talking about the amount of power you can pull out of such a large wave of either 12Hz or 7.43Hz.

Apparently Tesla was able to do it with a couple of metal rods and a dozen tubes and some wire in 1931.  He powered a 80hp A/C motor in a Pierce-Arrow for a week.

So this is what we are talking about replicating.  Perhaps LC circuits are not the way to go... but that is what experiments are for.  :)