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Author Topic: Finally I think I got it !  (Read 30185 times)

hansvonlieven

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Re: Finally I think I got it !
« Reply #45 on: February 13, 2009, 07:41:27 PM »
Hi all !

this is mod. of Gravitator's idea

green enbodyment is ponton-bridgelike heavy body, with characteristic that overall is lower density material than water
so it floats. call it moveable part MP

1. air presassure created by gravity on MP makes water climb and fills container.
2. valve on MP opens (in and out valves on container are now closed)
3. since MP has lower density than water it is pushed upwards by boyancy.

totaly clean, can be used to generate electricity, hydropower plants (but without devastating ekosystem)...

mechanically not so complex to produce -  (maybe to us - low/no money-time-labspace-equipment guys)
If someone who is genearting energy/money crysis and polution, would really give a fuck, building this is easy as cake.
Of course we would give them and did even better solutions.

Wiz


In order to create the syphon effect the weight MUST be heavier than water, so it cannot rise.

For every cm of riser tube the weight must create a pressure of 1 gram, so if your riser tube is 1 m high the negative pressure at the top must be greater than 100g/cm2 Since water has a specific gravity of 1 that means that the weight has to be heavier than water and therefore will not float.

The same applies to Alan's device.

Both devices cannot be compared to the drinking bird since the drinking bird is a heat engine that relies on vapour pressure.

Hans von Lieven

sushimoto

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Re: Finally I think I got it !
« Reply #46 on: February 13, 2009, 08:37:16 PM »
Everything will be relative. If you have a 2.5m dia. tank, then the top tank with the weight will be big also, and the filling of the top tank will require alot of water movement that will be relative also. Air bubbles are made in all sizes, some big but also some very small that can stay suspended and enter the riser tube. Also, if this is outdoors and you want the device to be wind proof, I would still put that tube underwater.

Agree. There is no need for open falling water.
So lets lengthen the outlet tube at V2 inside the tank...

where's Gravitator or wiz to further evolute his drawing and idea?

@Hans.
its just a little brain jogging in theories and for recreation. Not tooo serious ;)

spinner

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Re: Finally I think I got it !
« Reply #47 on: February 13, 2009, 09:00:02 PM »
In order to create the syphon effect the weight MUST be heavier than water, so it cannot rise.
....
Hans von Lieven

This sentence describes the main problem perfectly. That's why such setups cannot work.

tbird

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Re: Finally I think I got it !
« Reply #48 on: February 13, 2009, 09:59:28 PM »
Hi all !

this is mod. of Gravitator's idea

green enbodyment is ponton-bridgelike heavy body, with characteristic that overall is lower density material than water
so it floats. call it moveable part MP

1. air presassure created by gravity on MP makes water climb and fills container.
2. valve on MP opens (in and out valves on container are now closed)
3. since MP has lower density than water it is pushed upwards by boyancy.

totaly clean, can be used to generate electricity, hydropower plants (but without devastating ekosystem)...

mechanically not so complex to produce -  (maybe to us - low/no money-time-labspace-equipment guys)
If someone who is genearting energy/money crysis and polution, would really give a fuck, building this is easy as cake.
Of course we would give them and did even better solutions.

Wiz


hi,

with the upper tank full and v1 closed and v2 opens, no water will drain.  you have to have a vent to air.  but of course for the suction to fill the upper tank, it will have to be closed.

tom

tbird

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Re: Finally I think I got it !
« Reply #49 on: February 13, 2009, 10:09:16 PM »
In order to create the syphon effect the weight MUST be heavier than water, so it cannot rise.

For every cm of riser tube the weight must create a pressure of 1 gram, so if your riser tube is 1 m high the negative pressure at the top must be greater than 100g/cm2 Since water has a specific gravity of 1 that means that the weight has to be heavier than water and therefore will not float.

The same applies to Alan's device.

Both devices cannot be compared to the drinking bird since the drinking bird is a heat engine that relies on vapour pressure.

Hans von Lieven

hi hans,

even though the weight is heavier than the water being syphoned (in the tube), couldn't it displace more than it weights with a hollow extention?  it might shorten the stroke, but couldn't it then float?

tom

hansvonlieven

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Re: Finally I think I got it !
« Reply #50 on: February 13, 2009, 10:37:53 PM »
It is not a question of weight within the tube but of pressure.

In order to lift a water column 1 meter you need 100 g/cm2. That means if the surface area of your cylinder is 100 cm2 the weight needs to be 10 kg just to establish equilibrium, more if you want to lift.

Hans von Lieven

tbird

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Re: Finally I think I got it !
« Reply #51 on: February 13, 2009, 10:40:23 PM »
Gravitator I have waited on a reply long enough.

Greetings All

I am publishing this Design under copyright. Feel free to use the information to build any device you wish. When it comes to commercial exploitation I reserve whatever rights are given to my by law.



hi alan,

i think this design has the same problem Gravitator's does.  the amount of space the fully expanded bellows has is not enough to hold enough weight (water) to over come the leverage loss of the weight on the side the water is being sent to and the gain of the weight (leverage) going to the colasped bellows side.

there might be one thing that saves it.  the leverage of the water in the bellows is greater in your design, so it might work.  in my reply #29, the weight is at the end and 10% from the end.  in yours, the weight crosses the fulcrum.  this is kinda bad in itself because you are not only giving up leverage, but also real weight.  if we divided the weight into 2 equal parts and had a space betwen (stroke distance) so no more than half the weight was on 1 side of the fulcrum,  maybe it would stand a better chance.

if you have already done the math, let us know how much weight you have available to make it titter.

tom

AB Hammer

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Re: Finally I think I got it !
« Reply #52 on: February 14, 2009, 12:08:48 AM »
It is not a question of weight within the tube but of pressure.

In order to lift a water column 1 meter you need 100 g/cm2. That means if the surface area of your cylinder is 100 cm2 the weight needs to be 10 kg just to establish equilibrium, more if you want to lift.

Hans von Lieven

Hans

I am in agreement and that is the reason if it could work it would be very slow. The best part of it though is that there is plenty of time to run it. as it falls to one side the weight starts sliding. The hole size doesn't have to be that big so that it will fit above equilibrium equation. As the little water coming up the small intake it starts to fill the upper bellows. Now as it fills it, it also increases the weight of the weight going down to help pump the water out. I can see where it would possible work but it would have very little use outside of an oddity. IMHO

wizkycho

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Re: Finally I think I got it !
« Reply #53 on: February 16, 2009, 10:35:59 AM »
wizkycho

 Yet another interesting pump idea. But what is going to operate the valves? I don't see natural reaction being able to do it as easily. It looks to me by your drawings that you will need a shift system for the valves and they will be under pressure remember this.

presssure of water is important only when valve needs to close or open, and when that is needed there is no preassure at valves so valves easily opens and closes. (pause GIF animation at top and bottom points of MP). Valves can be/are already constructed when closed withstands presassure without investing E in them. E is needed only WHILE opening or closing and only small ammount cause when that needs to happen there is no preassure negative nor positive.
...for operating valves there is need for only a fraction of mechanicall energy of MP and/or gravity energy of water. (I didn't draw it in animation cause it would interfere with clearity of main principle of work)

Wiz

hansvonlieven

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Re: Finally I think I got it !
« Reply #54 on: February 16, 2009, 10:47:43 AM »
@ wizkycho,

You should really do some reading on hydraulics and hydrostatics. It is evident that you don't understand even the most basic premises.

Hans von Lieven

wizkycho

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Re: Finally I think I got it !
« Reply #55 on: February 16, 2009, 11:05:57 AM »
No, so the water in the tube does not have a tendency to fall back into the tank.

water would not fall down cause bottom of pipe is immersed in water. only if air enters pipe then water can drop. otherways water weight creates inner pipe preassure that holds
that water strongly.

...agree that sealing of MP when going down must be perfectly constructed, perfectly tight but on the other way not to cause friction (or very little). weight of MP must be heavy to overcome both friction and pump preassure in cilinder. but when watter weight in cilinder equalizes with weight in pipe then watter weight in cilinder itself is doing more and more all of the pumping action from pipe. (for better efficiency maybe MP should not go all the way to top...). when MP is going up sealing on edges should be low or none so to lower friction as much as possible.

seals like this exists - created on basis of one way preassure valves

Wiz


wizkycho

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Re: Finally I think I got it !
« Reply #56 on: February 16, 2009, 11:24:47 AM »
@ wizkycho,

You should really do some reading on hydraulics and hydrostatics. It is evident that you don't understand even the most basic premises.

Hans von Lieven

...you should stick to the topic and the system and be egzact what part you think doesn't work...
The topic is not me or my knowledge (there is much more at stake) or just any hydraulics and hydrostatics setup, my proposal is egzact specific setup (and is animated) so it's easy to be egzact.
Please ponit with finger where is a bug so we/I can debug it. ...and don't play God with Gods.


Wiz

wizkycho

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Re: Finally I think I got it !
« Reply #57 on: February 16, 2009, 01:21:17 PM »
Hi all !

Made some experiments and must confirm that Gravitator idea works 100% with COP in infinity.
Ingeniosity of this idea is supperpassed only by its simplicity.
If, already proposed by tbird, outpumped water hose (pipe) is connected directly to inpumped water hose
then bottom water container is not needed and allso preassure at the filling up part are not so great so sealing is easier to construct.

I assume further - to build this setup properly, weight(s) should be made as light possible to still be able of doing pump action
but on the other side not to be so heavy when weight ends up at the end of pumped out cylinder making F*l
(force(from gravity on weight) times lenght of lever) counter problematic action.
so cilinder can make rotation.

My design ForeverPump with introduced boyancy has lower efficiency and overall strenght but still COP in infinity since gravity is not depleted.
to build it properly MP has to be heavier then air and lighter then water. the best is 0.5Kg per kilogram (at start) of pumped water and the thing is working perfectly.
When the cilinder is filled to certain ammount (over weight of water in IN pipe) of water then weight of water in itself is doing pumping more and more
It is easier to fine tune ForeverPump then Gravitator's setup...

but without Gravitators work there would be no ForeverPump....I declare it free to replicate, use, sell and make any type of profit.

Wiz

wizkycho

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Re: Finally I think I got it !
« Reply #58 on: February 16, 2009, 01:28:13 PM »
Hi all !

...since significance of this discovery is tremendous (free water pumping, generating free eletricity...end to polution)
I give my baby new name Knitel's InifinityPump

Wiz

tbird

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Re: Finally I think I got it !
« Reply #59 on: February 16, 2009, 08:29:39 PM »
...you should stick to the topic and the system and be egzact what part you think doesn't work...
The topic is not me or my knowledge (there is much more at stake) or just any hydraulics and hydrostatics setup, my proposal is egzact specific setup (and is animated) so it's easy to be egzact.
Please ponit with finger where is a bug so we/I can debug it. ...and don't play God with Gods.


Wiz

hi wiz,

i'm sorry to say, i think you owe hans an apology.  i agree he is not very specific, but has given enough (if researched) to find the answer.

his comment was basically you can't float the piston.  my come back was to increase the volume of the weight enough to displace more weight (water here) than the weight used to pump the water.   this would be well and fine except that the amount of increase for the given area of the piston/disk would require all of the space given for the stroke, not just some.

this brings us to his statement about  hydraulics.  this has to be applied because of the syphon effect.  liquids being what they are, must follow certain rules (not always what we want or think they should be).  i think where we get thrown off is in the beginning when we hear 100 lbs or 100 kg.  THAT's a lot of weight!!!  but really what we have to look at is how much is applied to each square unit (inch, cm, mm, ect.)  i use U.S. measurements so i would say pounds per sq.in. (psi).  so if we have 100 pounds spread over 100 sq.in. (that's 10 inches by 10 inches), this would equal 1 psi.  now we have to figure how much does the water weight in the supply tube (column) and then how much is that per sq.in .  let's say it is 1" x 1" (make it easy).  from the reseach we find that 1 cubic inch of water weights .036127 lbs.  so how many cubic inches can we stack up before we get to 1 lb (100lbs hanging from 10" x10" disk = 1 lb psi)?  well 1 / .036127 = 27.68 inches.  so now we know the "head pressure of a 1 inch square pipe 27.68 inches high, 1 lb psi.  EDIT:  that's as high as we can go with 100 lbs applied to a 10" x 10" disk sealed in a 10" x 10" cylinder.

this is starting to look like a problem.  not much travel.  in this we have to have the weight and volume to displace 100lbs and still have room to move water (stroke).  let's see, how much volume (displacement) does 100lbs require to float?  since we know 1 cubic inch of water weights .036127 lbs, we can say 100 lbs will require 2768 cubic inches.  since we already have a given surface area for the disk, 100 square inches, all we need now is the height.  so, 2768 / 100 sq.in. = 27.68 inches high.  that sounds just the length of our supply tube, which will leave NO room for a stroke.  NO STROKE, NO MACHINE!

there is always a possibility i made a mistake, but i don't think so.  if you see one please respond with propper reference (as you have asked hans to do).

btw, Gravitator's machine doesn't work either as drawn, but for a different reason (which he knows about).

i'm not trying to be a wise guy, but right is right.  thanks for your help hans.

tom