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Author Topic: Aiming @ the VIC coil  (Read 20255 times)

Offline CrazyEwok

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Re: Aiming @ the VIC coil
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2009, 05:23:33 AM »
I will be selling 1/5 pounds on ebay for 100$ +

1/5 pounds will have 3500+ feet and will be enough for 3 coils

I will be about 20 times cheaper than any competition on the planet

http://www.a-msystems.com/electronics/wire/stainlesssteelsingletef.aspx
LOL!!! New sales spew, same wire... new packaging... Just a thought... if you have this VIC covered as well as you say you do why not make 3 sell them for a tidy profit as no one else has it as you say. and make your money back that way. As it seems to me you ain't got nothing but a new sales pitch and some drummed up facts based on a video that only you have with regurgitated pictures of a conversation with someone with the same handle as someone who is well respected in the online communittee... not actually stating in his posts what you are talking about... Seems very suspect since you say you have the holy grail in knowledge and you have an abundance of the correct grade base materials... small input on your part in making your "missing link that no-one has perfected yet" would make your money back 10 fold... easy... Or we could see it as it is... someone has an excess of wire that they have come into found a "market" with people who are looking for this sort of material and then trying to flog it off... your horse is dead here stop flogging your wire... CREATE A BLOG... SS wire for sale. and stop posing as anything but a traveling salesman...

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Re: Aiming @ the VIC coil
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2009, 05:23:33 AM »

Offline Shanti

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Re: Aiming @ the VIC coil
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2009, 01:59:38 PM »
Quote
But a bifilar coil, used as a flyback transformer, cannot put out much voltage because of the insulation between wires therefore it is better to build the flyback as 2 separate coils on the same core.

This is exactly the reason, why I have suggested that maybe they are connected so that both bifilars have the same polarity.
I completely agree, that your idea of the working does make sense. But a lot of ideas do make sense IMHO.

When it goes about Stan, I believe him, that he really wound the VIC, as stated in the first Pic in this thread. And also that this VIC put out a voltage of up to about 40kV. Also the wiring in seperate pieces on the coil does make sense, as this is a common way to wind HV-Flybacks, for obvious reasons, and would surely have made sense, when the output potential was 40kV . And although Stan declared, that he used a special enamelling for his wires: Even good enamelled wires are not able to withstand a lot of voltage. So if he wound the VIC as he described, it is IMHO impossible to have wound them bifilar if they were made so, that they did output different polarities. So from this point it would really only make sense, if they were wound so that both bifilars did have the same polarity. So IMHO if he really wound the VIC as shown in the first Pic, then the bifilars must have had the same polarity.
But at the same time it is shown, that the secondary does have even more turns than the bifilars, so it should actually develop already quite a high voltage. And this voltage would be seen by the bifilars even if they have the same polarity. This is quite confusing...
Well I just could imagine one possible setup which would work. And that is that the secondary has exactly double the voltage of each of the bifilars. Then they could be connected with different polarities and still not have to withstand a lot of voltage. But actually like that the secondary would always cancel the voltage of the bifilars, so that the WFC would never see anything... :-\

Also the diode is missing in this pic. This could just have been neglected, or he really didn't use a diode anymore. One could guess, that if one does saturate the core in one direction, then a diode is not needed anymore, as the core saturation will act like a diode on the inductors on the core, where the inductance for a current flow in one direction is much higher than in the other direction (just like in Tesla's patent, where he used this principle to rectify AC).

When one does look at the history of his VIC development (e.g. see here http://waterfuelcell.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=751) it is interesting that as soon as he introduced a resistor to the negative electrode of the WFC, he got a dramatic increase in the production. He called it the "Electron Inhibitor".  This is IMHO the same effect as the people here trying to "coat" their cells. By this coating they introduce a resistance.
What effect would this resistor have. Surely some voltage would drop across the resistor during the Step-Up. So the WFC would be on an overall positive potential with both electrodes, but there would still remain a voltage difference across the electrodes! So by adjusting the resistor, one could select how much voltage difference should be across the WFC, and how big should the positive offset be, of both plates. Actually with the bifilars with the same polarity the same would be the case, except that no energy would be wasted in the resistor.
Now during the flyback, the electron flow would be diminished on the negative side, as the resistor would block the current, whereas on the positive side, the full current could flow (remember during the flyback the positive side would be negativ and the negative positive). And by this current flow I don't mean conventional closed circuit current flow, but the current flow due to different electrostatic potentials. E.g. the same as when you touch a doorknob and get a buzz, when you walked over a carpet before. This "buzz-circuit" also didn't need a closed circuit, as it only equalized the different electrostatic potentials.   
So like that you have a tremendous inrush of electrons (short but high amp flow) into the WFC, but none of this current flowing through the WFC, e.g. no resistive losses. As I stated before, this is very very similar to Dr Stifflers circuit for water splitting.

"Unfortunately", the resistor would also make sense, with the bifilars in opposite polarity. Then the resistor would act merely as a current blocker, so that the inductive kickback voltage could develop and is not immediately eaten up by the current flowing. But then, a lot of the voltage would be seen by the resistor...
Well, I just love unconventional theories...
« Last Edit: January 27, 2009, 06:03:53 PM by Shanti »

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Offline dankie

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Re: Aiming @ the VIC coil
« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2009, 04:22:08 PM »
LOL!!! New sales spew, same wire... new packaging... Just a thought... if you have this VIC covered as well as you say you do why not make 3 sell them for a tidy profit as no one else has it as you say. and make your money back that way. As it seems to me you ain't got nothing but a new sales pitch and some drummed up facts based on a video that only you have with regurgitated pictures of a conversation with someone with the same handle as someone who is well respected in the online communittee... not actually stating in his posts what you are talking about... Seems very suspect since you say you have the holy grail in knowledge and you have an abundance of the correct grade base materials... small input on your part in making your "missing link that no-one has perfected yet" would make your money back 10 fold... easy... Or we could see it as it is... someone has an excess of wire that they have come into found a "market" with people who are looking for this sort of material and then trying to flog it off... your horse is dead here stop flogging your wire... CREATE A BLOG... SS wire for sale. and stop posing as anything but a traveling salesman...

At least I'm doing something while you just complain and cry and wtch Alex Jones ... At least I got something to sale and its not crack ... Im just working on my stuff , once in a while I do get a small order and it helps .

 I finally sold some here lol , 80% of getting my money back . You would be surprised @ how poor the people are these days , just getting your money back is hard enough lol ...

My horse if far from dead , its starting to run faster and faster . Its you people's horses that are dead  .  You have no tools  , no will , no knowledge , no hope , no ideas vvtf your talkign about ... You already said you preferred doing nothing rather than working on the VIC ... Of course you think buying wire and making a VIC is stupid ...


« Last Edit: January 27, 2009, 05:30:47 PM by dankie »

Offline Room3327

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Re: Aiming @ the VIC coil
« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2009, 06:44:15 PM »
       Having the same voltage on both sides of the WFC accomplishes nothing.  When I said he has the connections wrong in the patent I meant that if the circuit is connected as shown in the patent, the magnetic fields produced by the action would be in opposition to each other and cancel each other out and you would get no flyback action with the VIC.  When people apply for a patent they almost always do two things, they try to cover as many bases as they can to make the patent broadly applicable to as many things as they can think of, and they try to show something in  the patent to make it a little cryptic so any bean brain out there can't copy their patent right off the paper.  And sometimes they just plain make a mistake with the drawings.  What good would it do to have two magnetic fields canceling each other, when what your after requires them.  Please don't try to make this stuff way more esoteric then it is.

Dankie,

        Don't give up! Try some of what we have been talking about and wind a transformer out of magnetic wire and see what you get, Thats the only way to prove to yourself what is going on.


Offline dankie

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Re: Aiming @ the VIC coil
« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2009, 07:07:30 PM »
Room thx for the kind words , good observation Room  :)

I believe tho Stanley Meyers is trying to tell us something .. to  teach us something ...

Yes I agree with you room ,  here is my hypothesis on this issue . Somehow  I believe Both the polarization by HV  and "particle oscillation" occur sequentially in an instant of time ... Forget about that stuff that the VIC fits into the injector , I was wrong on that one ...

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/3240-real-injector-vic-coil-6-1-a-2.html

Watch this video ...

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=wZdtgb1VJ58


This is from a Tom bearden , it can be found @ the orion project site


From: Precursor Engineering and the Falsification of Modern Physics by: Thomas Eugene Bearden

With this more advanced understanding of what an "observable" actually is, then when we now introduce a bit of "sharp little gradient tickling" the vacuum in a local area, per P.A.M. Dirac, that tickling will produce negative energies in that tickled
vacuum as well. And that means that we are adding in "negative probabilities" into that bubbling structure (say, a container of water, in each water molecule structure) so that the entire bubble structure for the water molecule starts "backing back down" its ongoing creation chain -- in short, it starts "unhappening" at its "highest positive energy end". If we just use a gross pattern of tickling, we get "overall" unhappening, so the last and highest positive energy thing that made the water molecule possible -- i.e., the OH bond positive probability -- now has much-reduced overall probability. The net probability is the summation of (1) the usual positive probability and (2) the added negative probability due to tickling. Hence statistically the water molecules in the tickled area start "falling apart" as their
OH bonds now have much less probability, and so they just start "unhappening" statistically as their OH bonds start vanishing statistically. So intermixed bubbles of H2 and O2 gas (from those molecules whose OH bond "unhappened") begin appearing throughout the vacuum-tickled "water". But these mixtures are not very combustible or explosive because in that altered (tickled) region
now it is very difficult to form the OH bond. Aha! But if we then pipe the resulting gas bubbles out of that local tickled-vacuum
region -- i.e., out of the water container itself-- and a few inches away and into the combustion chamber of a nearby combustion engine, then the vacuum in that combustion chamber is "normal" and not being "tickled". Hence the OH bond is back in its full normal probability, and so the mix of O2 and H2 will burn and power the engine, giving no exhaust except water vapor.

From:  The Birth of New Technology

Opposite polarity Voltage Wave burst as to Dynamic Voltage Stimulation is simply produced when Programmable Variable Pulse-Width Pulse-Train Waveform is allowed to be electrically transmitted through and beyond  Resonant Charging Chokes Stages  that are not only electrically connected in sequential order but likewise magnetically linked by Inductance Coupling field. The resultant ever increasing pulsating opposite electrical voltage fields having superimposed thereon counter opposing Rippling Voltage-Surfaces  [Dynamic Electrica1 Charging Effect], now, set ups, causes, and applies ever increasing (rubberbanding effect) Pulsating Opposite Electrical Stress across Water Gap encouraging "Particle Oscillation"  as a "Energy Generator" by way of pulsating “Electrical Stress" as the combustible gas atom particles of the water molecule undergo "Particle Deflection" farthest from the point of "State of Equilibrium" and returning back to "Stable State of Equilibrium" during-pulse off-time for repeated "Snapping Action" (Rubberbanding effect) in accordance with bi-polar Voltage Rippling Effect. The greater the Electrical Stress applied, the greater amount of thermal explosive energy is released from Resonant Water Gap. Increasing energy-yield still further is accomplished by increasing the number of Resonant Charging Choke Stages in "Sequential Order" since the total number of Multi-Coil Magnet bifilar coils serially electrically connected together are sequentially electrically linked to an equal number of serially electrically aligned Stainless Steel Resonant Coils allowing each/both bifilar coil assembly to be electrically and magnetically energized in the same progressive direction toward Water Gap and away from blocking diode keeping amp-surge to a minimal level while enhancing Voltage Potential of Electrical Stress as additional Dual Choke Coils are included in the stacked coil-array forming Voltage Intensifier Circuit, once again.in.



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Re: Aiming @ the VIC coil
« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2009, 07:07:30 PM »
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Offline Room3327

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Re: Aiming @ the VIC coil
« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2009, 07:34:24 PM »
Dankie,
          Yes the more coils you stick into the flyback circuit the higher the output voltage goes.  But it is just like adding more turns to the 2 coils already in the circuit thats all it is doing, and it will give you a higher flyback voltage.

Offline Shanti

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Re: Aiming @ the VIC coil
« Reply #21 on: January 28, 2009, 10:41:39 AM »
Quote
     Having the same voltage on both sides of the WFC accomplishes nothing.  When I said he has the connections wrong in the patent I meant that if the circuit is connected as shown in the patent, the magnetic fields produced by the action would be in opposition to each other and cancel each other out and you would get no flyback action with the VIC.

Well, as I described, this would actually not be the case. There surely is still a flyback effect in the bifilars, if they are on the same core as the primary/secondary, as then they share it's magnetic field. But as I told before, the flyback voltage of the bifilars would be the same polarity. So the WFC would then always only see the voltage difference of the secondary, but on a fast changig modified overall potential, caused by the bifilars.
And IMHO Dr Stifflers circuit shows (and already Tesla did mention this), that even having just the same "one wire" voltage in a WFC does split water, if one does it right. And my suggestion was, that having additionally the secondary voltage across even could improves this as it pre-seperates the ions. 

Sure maybe this theory is not correct. But as long as nobody was able to replicate Stan's VIC, every theory is as good as the other, at least IMHO.
And there are many many possible theories...
BTW: In his drawings, he used both ways of bifilars polarity in the patents. In one patent that way, in another patent the other way..


What really puzzles me, is that, as I mentioned, the coil setup in Fig 1 doesn't really make sense. E.g.:
* The secondary is wound with more turns than the bifilars, and so will very probably output quite a high voltage. Also the splitting of the winding in a lot of pieces does make sense therefore, for insulation reasons, as used in any conventional HV-Flyback.
But if the secondary does output such a high voltage, the insulation of the bifilars, which are connected to it, could never stand it!
* The bifilars are also wound in a HV-Flyback manner, namely seperated into different sections. But as has been stated also by Room3327, this would not make sense, as the voltage the enamellation of the bifilars could withstand is very low. So either you wouldn't need the sectioning (when the bifilars only generate a small voltage), or the high voltage of the bifilars would destroy the enamellation.

The only solution, if one would think of a conventional flyback action for all three coils (secondary and the bifilars) would be, that the VIC wasn't made as Stan described it in this pic. Namely, that the bifilars were not bifilar...
But as has been seen by his "Gas Ionizer Cavity", whose Stan original has surfaced, his drawings/descriptions were exactly what he had done.
It's also interesting, that he only has three distinct Sections in this "Gas Ionizer Cavity"-VIC. Probabely due to the fact, that the used end-voltages were lower, as the dielectric breakdown voltage of air is much lower than that of water, and you obviously wouldn't wanna, that the electrodes just arc over.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2009, 01:22:54 PM by Shanti »

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Re: Aiming @ the VIC coil
« Reply #21 on: January 28, 2009, 10:41:39 AM »
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Offline Room3327

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Re: Aiming @ the VIC coil
« Reply #22 on: January 28, 2009, 07:06:48 PM »
The only solution, if one would think of a conventional flyback action for all three coils (secondary and the bifilars) would be, that the VIC wasn't made as Stan described it in this pic. Namely, that the bifilars were not bifilar...


Shanti,
     Good post,  I agree with you that the bifilar coils were probably not bifilar in the flyback.  I sure wouldn't have designed it that way, but remember in a tied back on itself bifilar coil, the maximum voltage between wires can only be one half of the imposed voltage, although I don't see how that would help in this case as I believe the voltages would have been too high anyway.

Offline dankie

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Re: Aiming @ the VIC coil
« Reply #23 on: January 28, 2009, 11:06:52 PM »
The only solution, if one would think of a conventional flyback action for all three coils (secondary and the bifilars) would be, that the VIC wasn't made as Stan described it in this pic. Namely, that the bifilars were not bifilar...


Shanti,
     Good post,  I agree with you that the bifilar coils were probably not bifilar in the flyback.  I sure wouldn't have designed it that way, but remember in a tied back on itself bifilar coil, the maximum voltage between wires can only be one half of the imposed voltage, although I don't see how that would help in this case as I believe the voltages would have been too high anyway.

Why so worried about dielectric breakdown of the wire ??

I believe each cavity has the resonant chokes wrapped in sequantial order , blue/red/blue/red ...

Offline Room3327

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Re: Aiming @ the VIC coil
« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2009, 12:34:46 AM »
Dankie,
     Have you ever triggered a stungun and seen the blue spark jump between terminals, stunguns start at 50,000 volts and go to about 500,000 volts.  50,000 volts will jump a 1/2 inch air gap easy. In the stungun the gap is in there to protect the transformer( and put on a show for the attacker) otherwise the voltage would find other paths through the coil to arc through and you burn out the coil.  If for instance the bobbin has 8 segments to it, and you are building a 40,000 volt transformer, that would put 40,000/8 or 5,000 volts across each segment how do you even contain that voltage with 300 volt transformer wire or even the HV 600 volt stuff.  If the depth of the segment is .250, from the bottom windings to the top windings of that segment there is 5,000 volts across a .250 gap are you getting the picture.  that is why special things should be done as Grumpy stated in a different thread, like put it in a box and fill it with tar type stuff. and I suggested sparkplug wire for the output. Mylar tape is really a requisite for HV transformers.  The segments are not resonant cavities or resonant anythings, it is to partition the High voltage to try and prevent arc over which can be death to a transformer of this type.

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Re: Aiming @ the VIC coil
« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2009, 12:34:46 AM »
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Offline Farlander

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Re: Aiming @ the VIC coil
« Reply #25 on: January 29, 2009, 01:38:00 AM »
I have a hard time getting my mind around what is happening in the bifilar...
if it is wired like in this diagram, then what is happening in each coil?

I'll refer to TX5 as the "positive" choke and TX4 as the "negative" choke

My understanding is -- the primary (TX1) generates a flux field which causes the secondary (TX2) to induce a voltage field relative in strength to the number of windings, etc. yea yea got that

So now, voltage is being applied to the start of the positive choke.  Normally, a coil with voltage applied to it will induce an even higher voltage at the output.  Since there is the negative choke however, I don't think any voltage drop/increase occurs, because the opposite inductances cancel each other out.

When I try to imagine the circuit in action, I see the + volts being applied, and current starting to flow from ground, through the "negative" choke, towards the water cell.  Some current will jump the water gap and flow into the positive choke... at this instant, current flow across the water gap is opposed because of opposing magnetic fields generated by the chokes.... one thing though did Meyers use an air core or ferrite core for his chokes?  If it was an air core this would suggest they are not designed to "choke" current but are more to induce voltage.

Offline dankie

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Re: Aiming @ the VIC coil
« Reply #26 on: January 29, 2009, 01:57:45 AM »
I have a hard time getting my mind around what is happening in the bifilar...
if it is wired like in this diagram, then what is happening in each coil?

I'll refer to TX5 as the "positive" choke and TX4 as the "negative" choke

My understanding is -- the primary (TX1) generates a flux field which causes the secondary (TX2) to induce a voltage field relative in strength to the number of windings, etc. yea yea got that

So now, voltage is being applied to the start of the positive choke.  Normally, a coil with voltage applied to it will induce an even higher voltage at the output.  Since there is the negative choke however, I don't think any voltage drop/increase occurs, because the opposite inductances cancel each other out.

When I try to imagine the circuit in action, I see the + volts being applied, and current starting to flow from ground, through the "negative" choke, towards the water cell.  Some current will jump the water gap and flow into the positive choke... at this instant, current flow across the water gap is opposed because of opposing magnetic fields generated by the chokes.... one thing though did Meyers use an air core or ferrite core for his chokes?  If it was an air core this would suggest they are not designed to "choke" current but are more to induce voltage.


Meyers used an EI core , not an air core .

That pulsing core design is most likely a laminated silicon steel  EI core or a U core


Offline Shanti

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Re: Aiming @ the VIC coil
« Reply #27 on: January 29, 2009, 10:13:05 AM »
Quote
I believe each cavity has the resonant chokes wrapped in sequantial order , blue/red/blue/red ...
Quote
The segments are not resonant cavities or resonant anythings, it is to partition the High voltage to try and prevent arc over which can be death to a transformer of this type.

Ahh I see. I think what Dankie meant was, that he didn't wind them bifilar, but that at every section he switched the coil. E.g. The first section was just purely the first coil, the second the second, the third section again the first coil, ...
Sure, then it would make sense. You would loose a lot of the bifilar effect, as the capacity would drastically decrease, but at least you would still get some capacitance between the coils, at least more, than winding them seperately.
Stan always speaks of his RLC Resonance. But the way he speaks of it doesn't make sense, as his blocking diode, actually prevents any oscillation. But this would not be the case if the bifilars were bifilar, or at least have some capacitance in between them. As then, this capacitance between the bifilars would bypass the diode and allow an oscillation...


Quote
that is why special things should be done as Grumpy stated in a different thread, like put it in a box and fill it with tar type stuff

Sure, this would be obvious to me. Either you close the openings of the bobbin sections again after the wiring with a good dielectric, or you immerse the whole bobbin e.g. into some oil. I would do the second. You could also buy some special HV-Isolation-Epoxy and cast the bobbin in it in a vacuum, but this is also quite pricy. Therefore I would prefer using some oil.

Quote
That pulsing core design is most likely a laminated silicon steel  EI core or a U core

According to Dynodon in the waterfuelcell forum, who saw the real Stan stuff, it was just a simple "I"-Core. But the core layout is IMHO only of secondary importance. Important would be, that it is correctly dimensioned (material usable for the frequencies, core doesn't go into saturation, ...), to yield a good flyback transformer.

To go back to my same bifilar polarity theory:  ;D

I stated that it maybe would make sense, to positively charge the water to weaken the bonds, or better said to ionize the water, prior to giving it a HV Pulse.

The funny thing is Stan himself wrote something like this in his patents (e.g. US4,936,961):

Quote
[...]In the process electrons are extracted from the water bath; electrons are not consumed nor are electrons introduced into the water bath by the circuit as electrons are conventionally introduced in an electrolysis process. There may nevertheless occur a leakage current through the water. Those hydrogen atoms missing electrons become neutralized; and atoms are liberated from the water. The charged atoms and electrons are attracted to opposite polarity voltage zones created between the capacitor plates. The electrons formerly shared by atoms in the water co-valent bond are reallocated such that neutral elemental gases are liberated.[...]

« Last Edit: January 29, 2009, 10:33:44 AM by Shanti »

Offline sparks

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Re: Aiming @ the VIC coil
« Reply #28 on: January 29, 2009, 02:20:49 PM »
   If you use two chokes slightly out of tune to the same input voltage the voltage arriving at the cell will be a very sharp pulse.  The mismatched impedance of the chokes have the voltage appear at the cell in a very short duration pulse.  This spike is way up there in the emwave energy spectrum.  Ionization potential.  This is gained from a very low frequency scource.

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Offline ronvbnt

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Re: Aiming @ the VIC coil
« Reply #29 on: April 29, 2014, 03:53:33 AM »
I just uploaded first ever videos showing a working spiral spool spinner making twisted bifilar wire.  https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/805268116/spool-spinner-makes-axially-spiraled-wire-twisted-0

Unless you found a way to twist thousands of feet of wire then none of you have followed Stans VIC guide.

I describe why I think it will work in the link above. Ron

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Re: Aiming @ the VIC coil
« Reply #29 on: April 29, 2014, 03:53:33 AM »

 

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