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Author Topic: Aiming @ the VIC coil  (Read 19356 times)

Offline dankie

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Aiming @ the VIC coil
« on: January 23, 2009, 03:38:58 PM »
After about 8 months of digging , I can finally confirm the following .

The VIC was made in a EI steel laminated core , was about the size of the VIC 6-1 on a piece of papers , was made with S/S wire . It has taken a long time for me to be to able to give you this info so "rafined" .

I dont believe nobody has recreated this VIC properly , ever . There was an attempt by 2curious4wfc but it seems he was wrong with the core  , wich is very suspicious . The simple fact that aftr so many years not 1 serious attempt has been attempted by anyone , I'm truely dissapointed @ the human race in general ...

http://waterfuelcell.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=870

Obviously there is a link between us failing all the time and the fact we are not replicating the VIC  Stan says on video is the real physical design , does he describe the physical design in the other videos ? No , only in this one . Does he talk much of other physical designs in the tech brief ? No , only this one , and alot of info dedicated to it , ALOT .

So we have a pattern of idiots here ... Nobody is following the real hard evidence , everybody is failing , absolutely no progress is done ...

In fact when I present this information some people frikkin attack me for selling wire ??? WTF !!!!!!!!! Its more than thats obviously ... You can see now why no progress is done when we have these ravens out there ...

its either that the clues from the tech brief , and Dynodon`s word are not good , or that 2curious is right and it is indeed an I core .I would say odds are thats its an EI core and Dynodon`s word is good , besides it appears from the brief that it is an EI core .

Stan never mentions any core type but does mention a tiny clue as seen in my pic .

I also believe coil 10-4 is made on an EI closed loop core since its core is referenced to figure 10-3A/B

So we have Stan on video saying this is it , Dynodon is saying he saw it , and its in black and white in the brief , id say this is indeed correct information based on truth . So we have approximative dimensions , we have approx resistance , we have an idea of the setp-up ratio , we have some wire gauge , we have core type , we have alot of clues now ...

We need to seriously get at this and troubleshoot this stuff in a massive new way , forget the manoeuvres , just ram that shizt , theres 18000 members here , Im sure we can get 40 good well equipped individuals .

http://waterfuelcell.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1157

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6hJEmw3mes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSlF7khibs0

http://img510.imageshack.us/my.php?image=4302ao9.jpg

http://img300.imageshack.us/my.php?image=430or5.jpg
« Last Edit: January 24, 2009, 03:19:30 AM by dankie »

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Aiming @ the VIC coil
« on: January 23, 2009, 03:38:58 PM »

Offline Crush

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Re: Aiming onto the VIC coil
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2009, 12:35:11 AM »
Great post Dankie , you really layed it out this time , as usual .  Nice collection of proof DAM dankie  dont get yourself killed lol  ;)  Is there even an opinion in this thread ?

Hey I joined this site to say this , yall should listen more to Dankie , the kid has some kind of intuitive judgement . I'm glad I met dankie and I'm glad I bought some wire from him , this stuff is really great to work with and its really a bargain price for such quality  . At first I tought Dankie was annoying but and after a while it becomes clear that he just following clues like everyone else but Dankie is just better at it . Ive never seen Dankie talk about other stuff than this VIC injector  , ever ,  the kid cant shut up  ;)

But seriously , this is what I like about the kid  , see this thread here ? This is gooooood stuff , no BS , no opinions , he lays out the evidences for your asses , argue if you want ,  Dankie has the proof   :o

Dankie is trying to set up an enviroment where everybody can help out eachother in a MIB safe enviroment where we are legion , for that we should all respect him . So what if he is making a bit of money while doing something positive , the kid is already 10 times cheaper than anybody , I sware to you , at least 10 times cheaper . So what if he is a little punk with an attitude problem , once you get to know him he's a really nice and generous guy . If anyone of you MIB agents out there try to discredit him , good luck to ya , Dankie will most likely destroy you and I will help him out .
« Last Edit: January 24, 2009, 01:14:47 AM by Crush »

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Offline Grumpy

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Re: Aiming @ the VIC coil
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2009, 05:09:31 AM »
Dankie has nothing to worry about from MIB.  They are busy with the TPU.

Big Oil might have interest if he does indeed achieve the results.  However, he has never mentioned the underlying mechanism of Meyer's work.  Thus he probably does not know, so he has little to worry about.

Buzz on the other hand, is probably on a list.

Offline Room3327

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Re: Aiming @ the VIC coil
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2009, 07:04:15 AM »
Dankie,

   If you want to build this coil you should understand why it is built as it is, and how it operates.  I have spent some years designing coils, transformers, and flybacks, I worked for a company that manufactured HV transformers so this one is not so unusual to me.
    First we should understand what Stanley Meyers was doing different then everone else with separating water.  The difference is that Stanley went to using high voltage to separate water into gas, everyone else was doing it the old fashioned way of electrolysis, low voltage-high current.  If you look at the two graphs he shows in his patent, you can see that production slowly increases with current the low voltage way.  His graph of his way, using High Voltage, shows that gas production is exponential with increasing voltage.  The HV stretches the water molecule until it snaps the bonds between the H and O.  What he was doing was pulsing the cell several times to line the molecules up between the cell plates and then stopping to allow the flyback condition to occur and zap it with very HV to snap the bonds.
    O.K. Now the transformer is built the way that it is for several reasons. The first is that this is a Voltage dependant process and he wanted to minimize current flow in the WFC, utilizing stainless steel winding wire provides more resistance per linear foot which increases the total winding resistance thereby giving him less current flow.  SS wire though is non magnetic and therefore works just like copper wire but with more resistance. The second reason is that he wanted to maximize the total inductance and capacitance in the VIC, more capacitance and inductance equals lower inherent resonant frequency also by keeping the interwinding capacitance as high as he could and the WFC capacitance as low as possible( hence the tube within tube design that minimizes capacitance compared to parallel plates) the fuelcell capacitance will not make to much difference with self resonance of the device.  The bifilar windings are there to increase total inductance, when the end of one of the bifilar wind is connected back to the second wire start it quadruples the inductance and greatly increases capacitance (as Tesla shows in his patent 512340) The output is split into 2 bifilar coils because a single bifilar wound coil would not be able to handle the voltage between the wires. Which brings us to the third reason. This is a High Voltage transformer and I mean 40,000 volts high, it is dangerous, in order to contain the HV the transformer is wound in small segments starting from one end, you do not wind back and forth across the bobbin like normal.  the wire going down to the bottom of each segment needs to be isolated with a small piece of mylar tape and the entire outside should be coated with epoxy the output leads should really be made of spark plug wire that feed the WFC. Remember it is High Voltage, winding HV transformers is tricky if you have never made one before it will be tough.  The two bobbins are again to separate the two flyback windings because of the voltage, These two windings need to be on the core in the proper polarity for it to work right, when it is working right the output of  each flyback winding will go in opposite directions across the WFC (+ and -).  The diode shown in Stanley's patent can go between the two leads at one end of the transformer and the two leads at the other end can have the spark plug wires attached for the WFC.
  Now because this coil set has both inductance and capacitance it will have an inherent resonant frequency that if you run this at, it will minimize the power required to drive it, thereby again minimizing power usage.  If the capacitance of the WFC is low it will have little effect on the resonant frequency.  At least this is how I see it, I may not be totally correct but I think it is about as complete a theory as I've seen around here.

I hope this helps
Room3327
« Last Edit: January 24, 2009, 08:19:07 AM by Room3327 »


Offline Room3327

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Re: Aiming @ the VIC coil
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2009, 07:55:58 AM »
I should also add that Stanley Meyer shows the device being run on 60 HZ.  A steel transformer core is fine for this and if resonant frequency is within 500 Hz or so, good for that too, but I would suspect resonance would be higher such as 40 or 50 KHz.  For  a higher resonant frequency you would want to use a ferrite core such as a color TV flyback transformer dual U core.  This kind of transformer can probably be wound easier as a double U core then an EI. Two Identical bobbins one on each leg of the core. The primary winding can be on the outside of one or split between the two.  But this thing may not resonate properly because of the diode, but the diode, I'm sure, has to be in the circuit for it to work with the WFC.

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Re: Aiming @ the VIC coil
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2009, 07:55:58 AM »
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Dave45

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Re: Aiming @ the VIC coil
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2009, 02:21:55 PM »
Room
  build it an I'll buy it.

Offline Grumpy

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Re: Aiming @ the VIC coil
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2009, 04:08:13 PM »
Dankie,

   If you want to build this coil you should understand why it is built as it is, and how it operates.  I have spent some years designing coils, transformers, and flybacks, I worked for a company that manufactured HV transformers so this one is not so unusual to me.
    First we should understand what Stanley Meyers was doing different then everone else with separating water.  The difference is that Stanley went to using high voltage to separate water into gas, everyone else was doing it the old fashioned way of electrolysis, low voltage-high current.  If you look at the two graphs he shows in his patent, you can see that production slowly increases with current the low voltage way.  His graph of his way, using High Voltage, shows that gas production is exponential with increasing voltage.  The HV stretches the water molecule until it snaps the bonds between the H and O.  What he was doing was pulsing the cell several times to line the molecules up between the cell plates and then stopping to allow the flyback condition to occur and zap it with very HV to snap the bonds.
    O.K. Now the transformer is built the way that it is for several reasons. The first is that this is a Voltage dependant process and he wanted to minimize current flow in the WFC, utilizing stainless steel winding wire provides more resistance per linear foot which increases the total winding resistance thereby giving him less current flow.  SS wire though is non magnetic and therefore works just like copper wire but with more resistance. The second reason is that he wanted to maximize the total inductance and capacitance in the VIC, more capacitance and inductance equals lower inherent resonant frequency also by keeping the interwinding capacitance as high as he could and the WFC capacitance as low as possible( hence the tube within tube design that minimizes capacitance compared to parallel plates) the fuelcell capacitance will not make to much difference with self resonance of the device.  The bifilar windings are there to increase total inductance, when the end of one of the bifilar wind is connected back to the second wire start it quadruples the inductance and greatly increases capacitance (as Tesla shows in his patent 512340) The output is split into 2 bifilar coils because a single bifilar wound coil would not be able to handle the voltage between the wires. Which brings us to the third reason. This is a High Voltage transformer and I mean 40,000 volts high, it is dangerous, in order to contain the HV the transformer is wound in small segments starting from one end, you do not wind back and forth across the bobbin like normal.  the wire going down to the bottom of each segment needs to be isolated with a small piece of mylar tape and the entire outside should be coated with epoxy the output leads should really be made of spark plug wire that feed the WFC. Remember it is High Voltage, winding HV transformers is tricky if you have never made one before it will be tough.  The two bobbins are again to separate the two flyback windings because of the voltage, These two windings need to be on the core in the proper polarity for it to work right, when it is working right the output of  each flyback winding will go in opposite directions across the WFC (+ and -).  The diode shown in Stanley's patent can go between the two leads at one end of the transformer and the two leads at the other end can have the spark plug wires attached for the WFC.
  Now because this coil set has both inductance and capacitance it will have an inherent resonant frequency that if you run this at, it will minimize the power required to drive it, thereby again minimizing power usage.  If the capacitance of the WFC is low it will have little effect on the resonant frequency.  At least this is how I see it, I may not be totally correct but I think it is about as complete a theory as I've seen around here.

I hope this helps
Room3327

Thanks Room3327.  You have brought out some very good points.   

403FR wire has a lot of iron and is magnetic just like the rest of the 400 series.

Meyer stated that what he called "resonance" meant "oscillation" of the water molecule - not necessarily a true LC resonance like most think of when they hear the word "resonance".

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Re: Aiming @ the VIC coil
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2009, 04:08:13 PM »
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Offline Room3327

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Re: Aiming @ the VIC coil
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2009, 09:34:46 PM »
Grumpy,

    Thank you for the kind words.  Are you saying Stan called out 403 stainless for the transformer?  I don't recall that in reading his stuff but I don't have time to reread it right now.  If he didn't call out 403 I would be inclined to use 300 series stainless wire to build out of.
You could be right about the resonance I certainly don't know everything.

Offline Grumpy

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Re: Aiming @ the VIC coil
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2009, 09:53:56 PM »
Grumpy,

    Thank you for the kind words.  Are you saying Stan called out 403 stainless for the transformer?  I don't recall that in reading his stuff but I don't have time to reread it right now.  If he didn't call out 403 I would be inclined to use 300 series stainless wire to build out of.
You could be right about the resonance I certainly don't know everything.

403FR was for the wire and is what Dankie has obtained.

Early core was ferrite per Meyer's patent - not sure about later ones.

Anyone using electromagnetic resonance in the VIC transformer is on the wrong path.

Also, early version were 1000v - I think - maybe lower as the 1N1198 diode, I think only goes to 600vdc or maybe it was 1200vdc - can't recall.

Offline mikemongo

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Re: Aiming @ the VIC coil
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2009, 10:55:35 PM »
It was my understanding that he chose the 430F/FR wire for BOTH the added resistance AND the magnetic properties.

Just the bifilar chokes are the SS wire and the rest is regular magnet wire.

The SS wire is part of the core.  Isn't that why it's wound on the inner layer?  My understanding, or maybe he said it in one of the videos, is that the bifilar windings magnetic field is increased using this method to help hold back amperage flow.  But then I don't have any experience winding coils. 

I think Dankie or someone is going to have to build one that's modular and take measurements with a good lcr meter.  I say modular so the bifilar can be changed easily without rebuilding the whole dam thing because I don't think anyone knows how to the calculations when the coil becomes part of the core due to the magnetic properties of the wire.

Mikemongo

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Re: Aiming @ the VIC coil
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2009, 10:55:35 PM »
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Offline Shanti

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Re: Aiming @ the VIC coil
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2009, 01:29:14 AM »
Quote
It was my understanding that he chose the 430F/FR wire for BOTH the added resistance AND the magnetic properties.

Yes, I also understood it that way from his papers. I think using magnetic wire (430F) has the advantage to additionally help increasing the inductance, as the wire itself acts like a "ferrite" core and increases the magnetic field.

Quote
Also, early version were 1000v - I think - maybe lower as the 1N1198 diode, I think only goes to 600vdc or maybe it was 1200vdc - can't recall.

I think there lies the real keypoint. Some time ago, I also studied deeply Stan's papers.
And I came to a different idea, how his VIC functions. And This allows very high voltages (40KV) but with a diode of only 600VDC, which Stan described.
It has been stated before the bifliars in his paper are wrongly connected. Well are they?
Let's look at it closer. If the coils are connected as suggested by Room3327, then they work so, that one has a plus 20kV at the WFC and the other a -20kV. But as we know, and as many have already found out, this high voltage at the cell will also produce dramatic resistive losses in the water. Additionally the diode of only 600V wouldn't make sense, as it would surely immediately blow up. But what's interesting is, that the diodes he suggested are made to withstand quite a lot of amperage!
Another IMHO the main trash factor for the + - coil theory is the fact that he wound his coils bifilar. If they would have been wound bifilar with one coil going + and the other coil going -. Then the potential difference between neighbouring wires of the two coils would be tens of  kV. And surely no enamelled wire (like Stan used) would be able to withstand these voltages...And there is no way in winding a bifilar coil, without this huge potential differences between neighbouring wires except one: Both coils step up the voltage in the same direction, and on the same absolute potential levels!

These are the points, why I suggested he really wound the VIC so, that one of the bifilar coil would put e.g. +20KV on the WFC and the other one also +20KV! Both the same polarity!
Now the diode only has to withstand the voltage from the secondary (the third coil), so 600VDC would be enough.
Now how should this work?
Well first the circuit starts step by step to generate the high voltage. As both electrodes have the same polarity, electrons get sucked from the water in the coils. Well it's not completely correct, that both electrodes do have the same polarity, as the voltage of the secondary will be seen as voltage difference on the plates (this voltage difference is what you see as the "step charging"-voltage on the WFC, what you don't see is, that the absolute potential of the WFC rises very high). This allows the water molecules to align themselves in the cell.
As the bondings in the water molecules are due to sharing electrons, the bonding of some molecules get weakened if the electrons get stripped, as they don't anymore have something to share...
Now is the time, to tear the already weakened molecules apart by issuing a strong Potential difference on the electrodes. This happens when the stopping of the pulses of the transformer happens, and also the bifilars which were pos before now become very negative (flyback). This tears the molecules apart and also impresses an electron backrush into the cell. E.g. for a very short time quite a strong current will flow...
In this case, his "resonance" would be nothing else, than the correct timing of the transformer circuit, e.g. similar like in every other common flyback too. So that you make sure, the current will never flow in the other direction, as long as you are in the step up. As soon as the current goes down to 0 you immediately give out the next pulse...

Well this was just on of my ideas I had some time ago about the VIC. I did quit with Stan due to other things. So it is certainly not to be taken as the ultimate solution, but just as another idea, why it could make sense, that both bifilars have the same polarity...
It would be interesting to know, what others thinks about that?
@Room3327: Especially your opinion as professional in flyback circuits would interest me. As I have not much experience in this kind of circuits, especially a flyback in such a "strange" configuration. For me it's quite puzzling to think how exactly such a flyback will perform, as when it is like in my idea, the bifilars will cancel each other out, and will therefore not be seen as inductance in the WFC circuit. But they will certainly share the magnetic field with the primary and secondary and therefore get a voltage induced...
This means, any amperage which will flow through both the bifilars will not alter the magnetic field of the core (well except the current that will flow due to the "sucking" electrons, as this current will not flow as an usual "close circuit" current). So the bifilars act only as an absolute voltage step-up down from the WFC. And the WFC itself sees only the voltage from the secondary. And as is said by conventional physics: The absolute potential is not relevant (Actually you can't even define an absolute potential, as you can only sense/measure potential differences as E-Fields). But this opinion I personally strongly reject. E.g. if you have two faraday cages, one on a much higher potential level than the other, e.g. 100 MV higher, then for you there's no possibility to find out in which cage you are, you can't feel the "absolute" potential. Everything according to current physics behaves the same, no matter in which cage you are. But I have the suggestion that there is a difference in behaviour...
One could also suggest, that this absolute voltage up down on the WFC has some serious effect on the water. E.g. Dr Stifflers work here goes in a similar direction, and already Tesla described how to split water with just putting one wire into the water! So maybe this principle can be improved by having additionally a voltage between the plates (from the secondary), to keep the molecules aligned, or even the ions seperated.

Another interesting thing would then be, why using magnetic wire (430F), is that if you wound them bifilar as I suggested , the coils would usually not perfectly cancel each other. JLN made some interesting tests with some bifilars/bucking coils and showed that they still have some inductive effects, which are quite special.
I think this is due to the fact, that right at the place where the two coils are very near each other some magnetic interrelation does exist. The actual core in the middle is too far away and will have almost no influence on this. But I think if you now use magnetic wire, then as described before the magnetic properties of the wire will help increasing the local field. So the "strange" properties of this bifilar coil should be quite increased. So like that it would make sense using magnetic wire, and not just a bigger core ferrite. Otherwise it wouldn't, at least to me...
So anyone which could organize some enamelled 430F wire, could do a nice test. Wire a bifilar out of this magnetic wire, and at the same time wire an identical bifilar but with conventional copper wire. Then take a little PWM circuit and an oscilloscope and test how these two coils behave, and how their behaviour differs.

What puzzles me is his mentioning of the "bidirectional" wired primary winding. What did he mean by that?
If it is meant bifilar, and also wired like in the second pic in this thread, it wouldn't make sense. As then the primary would cancel it's own magnetic field, and therefore never ever produce any voltage in the secondary...
Anyway the second pic has to be wrong, as it is shown, the primary gets connected to the cell, which is not true...
« Last Edit: January 25, 2009, 09:54:55 AM by Shanti »

Offline dankie

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Re: Aiming @ the VIC coil
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2009, 06:45:07 AM »
It was my understanding that he chose the 430F/FR wire for BOTH the added resistance AND the magnetic properties.

Just the bifilar chokes are the SS wire and the rest is regular magnet wire.

The SS wire is part of the core.  Isn't that why it's wound on the inner layer?  My understanding, or maybe he said it in one of the videos, is that the bifilar windings magnetic field is increased using this method to help hold back amperage flow.  But then I don't have any experience winding coils. 

I think Dankie or someone is going to have to build one that's modular and take measurements with a good lcr meter.  I say modular so the bifilar can be changed easily without rebuilding the whole dam thing because I don't think anyone knows how to the calculations when the coil becomes part of the core due to the magnetic properties of the wire.

Mikemongo

I was thinking along those lines as well Mikemongo , the wire is very slightly magnetic when you put a refrigerator magnet close to it , it also has 19.75 ohms per foot .



Offline Room3327

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Re: Aiming @ the VIC coil
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2009, 04:51:39 PM »
@All
      Good posts you guys you are really using your heads.  But there is another explanation for the SS wire on the inner winding that no one has considered, it's always funner to make magic out of things.  The purpose for the SS wire in the the inner core probably has more to do with balancing the two flyback coils.  Remember SS has more resistance then copper, the turn length on the inner bobbin is much shorter then the turn length on the outer bobbin.  To balance the coil resistance Stan was probably winding the SS on the inner bobbin (shorter total winding length for the same number of turns) and the copper on the outside (longer total winding length ,same number of turns) to balance the impedance's.  This would entail nonmagnetic stainless to avoid the magic and incalculable things that would crop up with magnetic SS.
   Now lets discuss Stans transformers a little more.  I say transformers because he had a number of them and different ways of hooking things up.   One method he used was the two transformer approach where he used a input transformer to feed the flyback (his best design I believe).  He says the turns ratio was 3 to 1 (on the input transformer), If this is pulsed with 120 volts that would produce about 400 volts at the output of it.  That 400 volts is then fed through two inductors to the WFC.  The two inductors are on the same core and act as a flyback transformer.  The diode in the circuit only see's the reverse voltage of 400 volts and applies that 400 volts across the WFC ( as a DC signal) when the signal is stopped the flyback action occurs and delivers a very HV pulse to the WFC as the field colapses across the flyback coils (the flyback of the input transformer is also added to total flyback voltage and it's resistance is also part of the circuit) the diode is forward biased at this point and it always is, in flyback mode. Thereby allowing a 600 volt diode to be used and still be able to deliver a Very High Voltage pulse to the WFC.  So as I see it he was step charging the cell with about 400 volts lining the molecules up and then zapping them with HV to yank them apart.

P.S. By bidirectional he means that the primary wire is wound back and forth on the bobin like most transformers.  The flyback is wound unidirectionally, from one end to the other in the segments( in order to contain the HV).

Offline Room3327

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Re: Aiming @ the VIC coil
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2009, 06:14:39 PM »
@All
      I suppose I should talk about the bifilar coils that Stan used and probably why he used them.  If you run a little test that I did, and I did it over and over because I couldn't believe it myself.  Wind a small bifilar coil out of any  small gauge wire and put it on a core it doesn't really matter what kind.  Now take this little coil and measure the inductance across each one of the two windings.  You will have L1 and L2 in henrys or millihenrys or whatever. Now tie the starting wire of one coil to the finish wire of the other and measure the inductance across the two free wires.  Instead of the reading being L1+L2 it is 2 X L1+L2 or 4 times the inductance of one of the coils.  This method, which is Tesla's, is a pretty slick way to increase inductance (it also increases total coil capacitance as well and you can actually run them at there own resonant frequency) .  But a bifilar coil, used as a flyback transformer, cannot put out much voltage because of the insulation between wires therefore it is better to build the flyback as 2 separate coils on the same core.  If it is built on U core with a bobbin on each leg, the coils are much easier to match and easier to wind.  If each coil is wound as a bifilar winding and connected as I said the total inductance is much higher in the finished transformer.

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Offline dankie

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Re: Aiming @ the VIC coil
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2009, 07:50:25 PM »
I will be selling 1/5 pounds on ebay for 100$ +

1/5 pounds will have 3500+ feet and will be enough for 3 coils

I will be about 20 times cheaper than any competition on the planet

http://www.a-msystems.com/electronics/wire/stainlesssteelsingletef.aspx

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Re: Aiming @ the VIC coil
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2009, 07:50:25 PM »

 

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