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Author Topic: RESONANCE EFFECTS FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE  (Read 199827 times)

Offline gotoluc

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Re: RESONANCE EFFECTS FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #75 on: December 17, 2008, 10:50:10 PM »
Luc,

Thank you for making the video. It is a great video and it clearly demonstrate what we where talking
about in private mails. It seems to me that your circuit (two coils) is outputting more Watt than
you are providing to the circuit. I have one question, it is possible to do the same test at 12 volt
input level? Then you can use the input voltage to also deliver power to the switched side. This will
give us an idea on how much the circuit is using at total compared to the total output. I ask because
the two diodes at the IR2103 is connected to the switch output side and may inject power to your
output, thus adding to the result. It may not be so but I think it is important to check that also.

You are doing a great research with this circuit and you should keep posting your results even if there
are few replays to you posts. Keep up the good work. Now that there is a replica (Tinsel Cola) I bet
he can confirm many of your findings.

Regards,
Groundloop.

Hi Groundloop,

thank you for bringing up this point. I do agree with you and we must look at all possibilities of error, that is why I ask for input.

As you know, I have mentioned to you in emails that the IR2103 get hotter as the frequency rises and or as I increase the switching input voltage.

I have no ideal how it will perform from just a 12vdc input but I will try and see. At lease what I can do is add a amp meter at the logic side to see if there is a change as I connect and disconnect the coils ;)  I'll also try it with a bulb in series to see if intensity changes.

Thanks for sharing.

Luc

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Re: RESONANCE EFFECTS FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #75 on: December 17, 2008, 10:50:10 PM »

Offline gotoluc

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Re: RESONANCE EFFECTS FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #76 on: December 17, 2008, 10:51:05 PM »
Oops

Offline gotoluc

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Re: RESONANCE EFFECTS FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #77 on: December 17, 2008, 11:04:42 PM »
Hey Luc,

Please do not stop  posting your results...I, and I dare say many are following your work avidly...check out the number of views this thread has.

The whole world now knows you though your work...I did not want to clutter your thread, so I just observed from the sidelines.

Your work is important...keep the faith.

Regards...



Thank you Cap-Z-ro for coming out and expressing your interest and support.

I hope others can join soon as we need to work together if we want this to work and get to the people in need.

Luc


Offline gotoluc

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Re: RESONANCE EFFECTS FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #78 on: December 17, 2008, 11:36:43 PM »
Umm. Ok. Aren't you just measuring the current draw of the logic and switching circuits? Isn't the charge current coming from the one cap being maintained at 50 volts, going thru the bridge and the coil? So the energy to charge the 12000 mfd cap isn't coming thru the AC ammeter?
Am I seeing this correctly? Could you post a clear drawing of the whole circuit including the meters and caps and variac and all?

Also I can't figure out why my bridge works, since I didn't rewire the 4013. Did I make a lucky mistake?

Okay TinselKoala,

the current I am measuring in the video is what is keeping the capacitor bank charged and is feeding the switching side of the circuit to which the coil is connected or disconnected as I demonstrate in the video. The 12,000uf bank with attached 10 ohm resistor as load is being charged by the secondary of the coil in question, (no direct connection to the 50vdc cap bank). The reason I monitor the amps from this location is it is 60Hz I know the meter will give an accurate reading at 60Hz and mostly because it is sine wave. However monitoring the the amps from the DC side when it is on off 350,000 times a second is not a good location since I don't think any meter will be accurate in this kind of situation. If anyone knows better please do provide your knowledge.

As you now know, since you tested it,  the circuit consumes close to 30ma from the switching input voltage at frequencies around 350Khz with nothing connected to the outputs. If you know this now! should you not ask yourself :-\... how was he able to charge a 12,000uf cap bank with a 10 ohm load attached to over 3 volts and not show any extra draw from the 50vdc input cap :o

Thanks for your interest and sharing.

Luc


Offline TinselKoala

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Re: RESONANCE EFFECTS FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #79 on: December 18, 2008, 12:05:15 AM »
Okay TinselKoala,

the current I am measuring in the video is what is keeping the capacitor bank charged and is feeding the switching side of the circuit to which the coil is connected or disconnected as I demonstrate in the video. The 12,000uf bank with attached 10 ohm resistor as load is being charged by the secondary of the coil in question, (no direct connection to the 50vdc cap bank). The reason I monitor the amps from this location is it is 60Hz I know the meter will give an accurate reading at 60Hz and mostly because it is sine wave. However monitoring the the amps from the DC side when it is on off 350,000 times a second is not a good location since I don't think any meter will be accurate in this kind of situation. If anyone knows better please do provide your knowledge.

As you now know, since you tested it,  the circuit consumes close to 30ma from the switching input voltage at frequencies around 350Khz with nothing connected to the outputs. If you know this now! should you not ask yourself :-\... how was he able to charge a 12,000uf cap bank with a 10 ohm load attached to over 3 volts and not show any extra draw from the 50vdc input cap :o

Thanks for your interest and sharing.

Luc



OK, good, I'm glad you aren't going quiet.

First, some more results.
First, my unit seems to oscillate at 1/4 the clock frequency, not 1/2. That is, if I give it a 1 kHz square wave input (say) the output bridge gives a 250 Hz square wave output. I didn't notice this last night as I was using both scope channels to look at the outputs. Are you sure yours does 1/2? Could this difference be because I am using both flipflops in the 4013 and you are only using one?
Second, I looked at a larger freq range. The no-load leakage current peaks at a drive freq of about 1.8 MHz or so, then goes down again, but the whole unit shuts down at a little over 2 MHz. I'm sort of bummed at this, I was hoping it would get to 3 MHz.
Third, I am using the IR2104 which has the shutdown or inhibit pin. When the shutdown is selected, the leakage current goes away and I just see the 26 mA for the chips. So the problem, if that's what it is, is in the output of the driver chips or the mosfets themselves. The first thing I'd try is bigger gate resistors. But that's just a guess.
Fourth, I forget, maybe it will come back to me in a minute.

Second, your circuit and the cap charging. I'd like to see an exact diagram of the set-up before I stick my foot too far in my mouth, but a couple things strike me as possibilities.
First, the meter may not be fast enough to respond to the current surge. It's all over pretty quick, I think.
Second, you are only charging the output cap stack to a relatively low voltage. As you know the energy on a cap goes as the square of the voltage. I'm not sure what to use as the input energy, though, which is why I'd like to see a whole diagram of the circuit, including meters, variacs, load resistors, etc. In other words, the whole setup.

Third, sorry about all the firsts, seconds, and so forth. It's been a long day, and it will be a long night.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: RESONANCE EFFECTS FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #79 on: December 18, 2008, 12:05:15 AM »
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Offline gotoluc

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Re: RESONANCE EFFECTS FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #80 on: December 18, 2008, 12:20:10 AM »
OK, good, I'm glad you aren't going quiet.

First, some more results.
First, my unit seems to oscillate at 1/4 the clock frequency, not 1/2. That is, if I give it a 1 kHz square wave input (say) the output bridge gives a 250 Hz square wave output. I didn't notice this last night as I was using both scope channels to look at the outputs. Are you sure yours does 1/2? Could this difference be because I am using both flipflops in the 4013 and you are only using one?
Second, I looked at a larger freq range. The no-load leakage current peaks at a drive freq of about 1.8 MHz or so, then goes down again, but the whole unit shuts down at a little over 2 MHz. I'm sort of bummed at this, I was hoping it would get to 3 MHz.
Third, I am using the IR2104 which has the shutdown or inhibit pin. When the shutdown is selected, the leakage current goes away and I just see the 26 mA for the chips. So the problem, if that's what it is, is in the output of the driver chips or the mosfets themselves. The first thing I'd try is bigger gate resistors. But that's just a guess.
Fourth, I forget, maybe it will come back to me in a minute.

Second, your circuit and the cap charging. I'd like to see an exact diagram of the set-up before I stick my foot too far in my mouth, but a couple things strike me as possibilities.
First, the meter may not be fast enough to respond to the current surge. It's all over pretty quick, I think.
Second, you are only charging the output cap stack to a relatively low voltage. As you know the energy on a cap goes as the square of the voltage. I'm not sure what to use as the input energy, though, which is why I'd like to see a whole diagram of the circuit, including meters, variacs, load resistors, etc. In other words, the whole setup.

Third, sorry about all the firsts, seconds, and so forth. It's been a long day, and it will be a long night.

Yes, that is what I had at first until I made the mods to the 4013. Do the mods and it should be 1/2 and not 1/4

There is a switching speed limit to the IR2103 and it seems to be at 1Mhz and if your 4013 is wired right your signal generator should be at 2Mhz to get 1Mhz at the IR2103.

I think Groundloop should answer your comments on the MOSFET's as I have minimal electronic knowledge.

So you think the current maybe too fast for the amp meter :-\...  do you also think the current is too fast for the bulb I put in series ???

I will do a hand drawn schematic of my test setup and maybe someone that has some time can clean it up.

Thanks for sharing

Luc

Offline Groundloop

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Re: RESONANCE EFFECTS FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #81 on: December 18, 2008, 01:28:01 AM »
@TinselKoala,

The output frequency will be 1/2 the input frequency if you wire the 4013 IC as shown in the new drawing.
The maximum switching frequency is set by the IR2103 (or IR2104 in you case). It is also set by the
maximum speed the HEXFETs can do. But the main limiting factor is the drivers. When Luc asked me
to design the circuit he stated that up to 1 -2 MHz was enough. If you want a circuit that can switch much
faster, then this will be another ball game. This switch is designed as simple as possible so that people with
little experience with electronic can build this circuit. The gate resistors must be small enough to ensure
a fast turn on and turn off time for the HEXFETs, but also big enough (in value) so that the current to and
from the driver is limited to what the drivers can do. So around 50 ohm will keep the current low enough so that
the IR2103 will not heat up too much. Hope this answers some of your questions.

@Gotoluc,

Mail me the hand drawing and I will clean up the drawing for you.

Groundloop.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: RESONANCE EFFECTS FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #81 on: December 18, 2008, 01:28:01 AM »
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Offline gotoluc

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Re: RESONANCE EFFECTS FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #82 on: December 18, 2008, 01:51:21 AM »
Hi everyone,

here is the complete circuit under test at this time. If anyone would care to help by cleaning and adding what you believe is needed for a clear understanding of the circuit please post that you will take on this task so not to have more than one working on this.

Thanks

Luc

Added: I forgot to add the voltage meters at the input cap and output caps.

Offline gotoluc

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Re: RESONANCE EFFECTS FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #83 on: December 18, 2008, 02:02:22 AM »
Okay, I see Groundloop has offered to do the cleanup of the circuit.

Thanks for all the help Groundloop ;)

Luc

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: RESONANCE EFFECTS FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #84 on: December 18, 2008, 02:32:53 AM »
OK, thanks Groundloop, that's what I figured.

Gotoluc, OK, I understand your diagram.

So you are looking at the ammeter on the supply side of the bridge rectifier which is keeping the 6000 mFd cap charged to 50 volts. There's no ammeter on the output side of this cap, before it goes into your h-bridge?
Because it seems to me that this location is where you should be monitoring input current, not before the rectifier. It's not surprising to me that the surge current wouldn't show on the meter where you have it. That's what those big caps are for, anyway!! Like in car audio systems--they provide a big current surge for that bass note, then charge up again for the next one, without letting the input power sag too much.

And let me confirm: you are charging, until the voltmeter on the secondary caps reads a certain value in the 3.5 volt range? Then you disconnect? Where in the circuit is the "switch" or interrupter wire that you close in the video?



Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: RESONANCE EFFECTS FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #84 on: December 18, 2008, 02:32:53 AM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: RESONANCE EFFECTS FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #85 on: December 18, 2008, 02:42:42 AM »
Another thought: it might be instructive to compute the energy involved in a one volt drop from 50 to 49 volts in a 6000 mFd capacitor. Let's see, energy on the cap at 50 volts is (0.006000 Farad x 50 x 50)/2 = 7.5 Joules, and the energy on the cap at 49 volts is 7.203 Joules, for a difference of 0.3 Joules, about. You'd not even notice a brief drop of one volt on this cap as you actuate your system.
Now let's figure the energy on a 6000 mFd cap at 3.5 volts. (0.006 F x 3.5 x 3.5)/2 = 0.03675 Joule, or about one-eighth the input energy, assuming the 1-volt momentary drop on the supply cap.

Offline Groundloop

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Re: RESONANCE EFFECTS FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #86 on: December 18, 2008, 02:51:29 AM »
@TinselKoala,

Moving the ampere meter to the DC side will make it impossible to get a good reading.
Then you will need a expensive true RMS meter capable of measuring high frequency
at complex waveforms. The way Luc has placed the amp meter is correct. The meter
itself will display the correct AC ampere because the meter is designed to operate with 60Hz.
The ampere meter itself is a low resistive shunt and you are measuring the AC voltage over
that shunt. It will be the same as if Luc put in a low ohm resistor and then measured the
voltage over the resistor.

Groundloop.

Offline gotoluc

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Re: RESONANCE EFFECTS FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #87 on: December 18, 2008, 02:56:03 AM »
Luc,

Thank you for making the video. It is a great video and it clearly demonstrate what we where talking
about in private mails. It seems to me that your circuit (two coils) is outputting more Watt than
you are providing to the circuit. I have one question, it is possible to do the same test at 12 volt
input level? Then you can use the input voltage to also deliver power to the switched side. This will
give us an idea on how much the circuit is using at total compared to the total output. I ask because
the two diodes at the IR2103 is connected to the switch output side and may inject power to your
output, thus adding to the result. It may not be so but I think it is important to check that also.

You are doing a great research with this circuit and you should keep posting your results even if there
are few replays to you posts. Keep up the good work. Now that there is a replica (Tinsel Cola) I bet
he can confirm many of your findings.

Regards,
Groundloop.

Okay,  just now I tested the 12vdc feed side to the logic of the circuit using a 12v 90ma car dash instrument bulb in series on the positive lead and started the circuit to see how much current is going through the bulb. First test is noting connected to the switch side of the circuit and the bulb just glows. I know this bulb well and I would say it is about 25ma of current going through. I then connect the switch input 50vdc cap and nothing changes in the bulb intensity. I then connect the coils and again nothing changes in the bulb intensity and the 2 capacitors with load fill up as usual. The next test I did is connect the switch input to the same battery as the logic is using and nothing ???  I think I fried something by doing this, since it no longer works :(  bad idea to have the logic and the switch feeding from the same battery.

Anyways, I think my first tests are good enough to prove the power is not coming from the battery feeding the logic side of the circuit.

I'll try to fix the circuit now.

Luc

Offline Groundloop

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Re: RESONANCE EFFECTS FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #88 on: December 18, 2008, 03:02:51 AM »
@gotoluc,

The switch should not have any problem with using 12VDC for both the switch side and the logic side.

Groundloop.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: RESONANCE EFFECTS FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #89 on: December 18, 2008, 03:12:40 AM »
Well, OK... I guess. I'm used to having the fancy equipment at my fingertips and sometimes I forget others aren't as privileged. Sorry. I have the dream job...

But:

First, what about the energy calculation.

Second, what about the surge-filtering ability of the big input cap.

Third, I run my unit on the same battery supply to both logic and bridge with no difficulty. I even accidentally hooked up the logic supply voltage backwards once, for a second, and it survived. My initial tests last night were driving the LT solenoid (16 ohm electromagnet coil) as a load, with the 11.4 volt LiPo used as both supplies simultaneously. It worked from fractions of a Hz to 200 kHz (input clock). And with no load, but with the battery hooked to the bridge input and logic side, I let it run for 4 hours this afternoon.

Btw, there is a bit of power coming from the logic thru the diodes. You can see my output leds glowing very dimly, when there isn't any bridge supply connected. But this leakage is only a few milliamps and will be swamped by the operational current. So it isn't the answer to the question.

Why not do one cycle with the power supply to the input cap disconnected? Too bad you don't have the 2104. It turns off all output mosfets with a single pin, no matter what the clock is doing, so it would be easy to set things up, charge up the cap to 50 volts, disconnect its PS, trigger the bridge to start the circuit, stop at the normal time, then look at the voltage on the input cap. Then you'd need to correct slightly for the leakage, but you'd have a handle on the input power, even if your meters won't measure it while it's rushing by.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: RESONANCE EFFECTS FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #89 on: December 18, 2008, 03:12:40 AM »

 

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