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Author Topic: Joule Thief  (Read 4298515 times)

Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Jule Thief
« Reply #45 on: November 24, 2008, 08:12:06 PM »
Quote from Spinner:

"As you may have noticed, the author never claims OU."

Yes, and I never did either.  I started this topic to learn about the joule thief and I have been learning a lot.  This is just a tool that I believe can be used in other systems to possibly achieve ou.  I will be using this with my earth batteries, which to me is already free energy, and some supercaps.

I find this topic very educational as I never knew there were so many variations utilizing different transistors and different size wire and ferrites.  I have a lot to play with now for some time to come.  I really appreciate all of you that posted all of the great information here.  Thank you.

Bill

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Jule Thief
« Reply #45 on: November 24, 2008, 08:12:06 PM »

Offline spinner

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Re: Jule Thief
« Reply #46 on: November 24, 2008, 08:39:16 PM »
...remembering that if you put them in a charger, they often charge up again, whatever it
says on the side of the battery.
Hi, Paul!
Yes, It's possible to "recharge" non-rechargeable batteries... Kind of.. ;)

The truth is, while one can "revitalize" the battery to even a nominal voltage, such battery is actually not charged (at best it can give some 10% of the original capacity).
Simply because the electrochemical process with common type batteries is not reversible (chemical energy is converted to electricity, but you can't do it in reverse - converting electricity to a chemical potential).

Be carefull if you will experiment with this - charging an "non-chargeable" battery is a hazardous business (the label on the battery is saying so!)
I can confirm - I mistakenly put a NiMh and an alkaline AA battery to charge overnight - luckilly, no fire, only melted plastic, acid fumes and a mess in the morning...



Freezer provided a link :
>>
The Alkaline Battery Charger.
This is the battery charger that can revitalize standard alkaline batteries up to 10 times--verified after rigorous testing by the Hammacher Institute--enabling you to re-deploy previously useless alkaline AAAA, AAA, AA, C, N, D, 6- and 9-volt batteries. It can aso re-charge rechargeable alkaline manganese, titanium, NiCd and NiMH batteries. It uses a sophisticated microprocessor and proprietary charging technology to sense battery types and their conditions prior to charging. It can charge up to four batteries at one time, regardless of the type or size. A built-in voltmeter measures the strength of each battery prior to re-charging and displays the increasing voltage level with four LEDs; charging times vary depending upon the type of bat tery and its current level of charge. Plugs into AC. 2" H x 8 1/2" L x 5 1/2" D. (2 1/4 lbs.)

Item 75357 ................... $69.95
Available for Immediate Shipment.
<<
It says this device can revitalize alkaline batteries up to 10 times...
If the device would really work as claimed, it would be available in any store...

Any experience with this device?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline Yucca

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Re: Jule Thief
« Reply #47 on: November 24, 2008, 09:38:17 PM »
Most chemical  to electricity process I know of is reversible because it usually involves simple ion transport through electrolyte.

This guy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDwMxISYojM

Says:
The main difference between alkaline cells and NiMh or NiCd is the physical seal. NiMh and NiCd are both alkaline cells also, the electrolyte in both types is alkaline. In fact alkaline cells usually contain NiCd or NiMh electrolyte sludge.

I myself have achieved almost full capacity from used alkalines by charging REAL slow using a current limiting supply (set to ~20mA). It also helps if you put a Stiffler SEC avramenko output (same polarity as charge source) ontop of the main charge current, it seems to help encourage the reverse ion flow by shaking the electrolyte a little.

A crude method of recharging alkalines at home is to take a normal NiMh charger and put it on a time switch set 15min on 45min off cycling for 24 hrs. But beware you may find some brands that leak more than others. For example I have found Duracell to have terribly leaky seals using this method and awoke to find a small blue pool of crud on the bathroom counter top. I wouldn't worry too much about doing this, from my experience the worst you can do is get electrolyte leakage on your charger so use flyleads and clips and put the cell in a soap dish or something for troublefree recharge experiments.

Yucca.

Offline spinner

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Re: Jule Thief
« Reply #48 on: November 24, 2008, 09:57:00 PM »
Quote from Spinner:
"As you may have noticed, the author never claims OU."

Yes, and I never did either.  I started this topic to learn about the joule thief and I have been learning a lot.  This is just a tool that I believe can be used in other systems to possibly achieve ou.  I will be using this with my earth batteries, which to me is already free energy, and some supercaps.

I find this topic very educational as I never knew there were so many variations utilizing different transistors and different size wire and ferrites.  I have a lot to play with now for some time to come.  I really appreciate all of you that posted all of the great information here.  Thank you.
Bill

Hi, Bill!
My posts in this thread were just replies to a discussion about "The Joule Thief" circuit.
The only point I was trying to make was that it is not OU, and that today one can find a modern equivalent integrated circuits with much better performance.  Sorry, my "professional deformation"... ;) (God knows when was the last time I worked with a single transistor circuit...)

I admitted later that the "Joule Thief" has some real value like a very good educational/experimental aspect. I allmost forgot how fun is it to play with such circuits... :)

Good luck and a lot of fun with your experiments!
(And - if this means anything - I'm firmly convinced that someday someone will find a new way...)

Cheers!


Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Jule Thief
« Reply #49 on: November 24, 2008, 10:31:26 PM »
@ Spinner:

Can you give an example of an easily obtainable ic that does the same, or similar thing as the joule thief?  I would agree that, by its modern design and use of better materials, it should be more efficient.  I would like to play with some of these as well just to see.  Hopefully, it will be something simple like a 555 timer ic and not some chip with 10,000 other things built into it.  I have never seen a video of someone lighting leds with a single AA bat. using an ic but, if this is indeed possible (and not too complicated) I would like to try it and then make a video.  Thanks.

Bill

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Jule Thief
« Reply #49 on: November 24, 2008, 10:31:26 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline spinner

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Re: Jule Thief
« Reply #50 on: November 24, 2008, 10:47:20 PM »
I think this one is one of the easiest... ANY (even "dead") single cell battery (0,9V-2V), IC, inductor, and a LED(s) (it works nicely with a few microHenry SMD "choke"...)..  and, it's 80% efficient...

http://www.prema.com/pdf/pr4401.pdf

Yes, it has limitations, allright....

Anyway, there are many DC/DC chip converters on the market, ranging from mW to many Watts of power...

Check out Wilby's link (on page 3?), too...

Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Jule Thief
« Reply #51 on: November 24, 2008, 10:55:06 PM »
@ Spinner:

Wow, thanks!  If I read that correctly, 55 hours off a single AA bat?  That sounds pretty efficient to me.  Can we find these for sale in small quantities?  I have not searched on the net yet but will.  My local Radio Shack carries next to nothing in the component dept.  I wonder how these would work with the earth batteries?  Thanks for posting this.

Bill

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Jule Thief
« Reply #51 on: November 24, 2008, 10:55:06 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline WilbyInebriated

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Re: !
« Reply #52 on: December 01, 2008, 12:46:13 PM »
???Yes they are.  ;D
Why would they (manufacturers) lie about it? Take, for instance, PR4401. It's efficiency is declared under certain conditions, and it can provide a continuous power at #82% (ENERGY EFFICIENCY)!. Try to adopt the circuit discussed in this thread to the same conditions (add rectifying/smoothing, etc..), and see how it will perform....

Or, take a two identical supercaps charged to the same Voltage, and see how long the LEDs will work  with both circuits.... Or, find an equivalent serial ic circuit with a PWM output capability... Or,... Whatever...
You're aware that we're comparing a +50 years old electro-tech components against a few years old? I'm sure there's at least some improvement being made....

BTW, Thanks for providing the link... It is a good text, telling a lot about LEDs and suitable LV driving circuits...

As you may have noticed, the author never claims OU. And the only efficiency he's talking about is based on a "personal" light intensity perceptions (not correct measurements). Need I say more?

Thanks.. Can you provide a circuit schematics and description/details of a measuring procedure?
The "extra smoothing cap" ALWAYS lowers the combined circuit efficiency... Voltage without current cannot do much work...

OK, i admitted before that we're "not looking through the same glasses"...

Cheers!
yes they are? wanna post your math for this?
you obviously read the link, you referred bill to it... so you must have missed this part about your super efficient pr4401?

"With this we turn to a surface-mount chip that has been designed to carry out the exact same task as circuit B. The chip is called PR4401. 
I could not find any sales literature on the internet, but the manufacturer requires 9,000 pieces to be bought at a cost of 36 cents per piece. This comes to $3,240 if you want to incorporate it into your project.
I have described the pro's and con's of this chip in another article "Circuit Tricks" and you should read the features and work out what they really mean.
When you build circuit "B," you will realize the specifications given in the .pdf for the chip, could be improved. We have achieved a supply current of 18mA for an equivalent brightness of 10mA. The chip requires 25mA. So, all the technology in the world has not surpassed a hand-made circuit."

outperforms by a factor of 2 huh?
and i'm gonna fathom a guess that you also missed the 'circuit tricks' article...

"Now we come to a critical analysis of the chip.
1. The data for the chip states it will operate for 55 hours at 33mA, on a single AA alkaline cell, for an end-voltage of 0.9v. This gives a consumption of 1815mAhr.  The capacity of an AA alkaline cell is 2400mAhr when taken to a terminal voltage of 0.8v.
This means the chip is using only 75% of the capacity of the cell.
2. The second point to note is the maximum input voltage for the chip. This is 1.9v.
The chip will not trigger or start properly if the supply voltage is above 1.9v.
This is a big limitation. How many projects work from a single cell? If the chip was designed to operate from 2 cells (3v), the terminal voltage (meaning the end-voltage) could be as low as 1v and this would mean each cell could be used to an end-voltage of 0.5v. This would almost double the number of hours per cell, giving a total of more than 200 hours from two cells.
3. The cost of the chip is about 36 cents when buying 9,000 IC's. This is an outlay of more than $3,200 for a single item.
The cost is too high when you consider its function. It should be less than 8 cents. When you see the Chinese using the chip in a project, you know the price is right. I will wait for this to happen.
4. No supplier for the chip could be found on the internet and the other components (inductor and surface-mount white LED) are also difficult to buy as a single item.
I searched the internet for 3 hours and could not find a supplier or price for the IC. I finally had to contact the manufacturer. Their minimum order was 9,000 pieces!!!!
5. The chip shuts down when the cell voltage reaches 0.9v. This is to prevent deep discharge. This is ok for a rechargeable cell as some have a "memory" and should not be fully discharged, but an alkaline cell can be fully used-up before it is thrown away. Why not use the maximum energy from this type of cell?
6. Their .pdf document for the PR4401 had a number of technical inaccuracies and I wrote to them with the corrections. Up to this point in time, I have not received a reply!!"

limitations indeed. and you think this is one of the 'easiest'?, you can't even buy them, unless you want to drop a couple grand... i guess it also says something about taking datasheets at face value, why would they lie? dunno, maybe cause they are trying to sell them... come on captain obvious, that one is obvious. says something about actually doing the experiment and taking your own measurements, need i say more?

btw, thanks for letting us all know that a simple blocking oscillator is not OU, even though no one claimed it was... captain obvious strikes again ;)
« Last Edit: December 01, 2008, 01:39:39 PM by WilbyInebriated »

Offline Trino Cularoid

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Re: Jule Thief
« Reply #53 on: December 01, 2008, 06:06:43 PM »
« Last Edit: December 07, 2008, 04:16:21 PM by Trino Cularoid »

Offline Thaelin

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Re: Jule Thief
« Reply #54 on: December 01, 2008, 08:00:44 PM »
   This one's for Willy:
        Since you like to flip the bone, here is you one.

Just couldn't help my self.     ;D

If its too bold stephan, just delete it.

thaelin

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Jule Thief
« Reply #54 on: December 01, 2008, 08:00:44 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline WilbyInebriated

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Re: Jule Thief
« Reply #55 on: December 01, 2008, 08:06:42 PM »
thanks for your stunningly helpful comment... what an amazing contribution to the discussion at hand   ::)
yeah thaelin, if you found any mistakes in my comments please feel free to mention where.

Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Jule Thief
« Reply #56 on: December 01, 2008, 08:15:11 PM »
Hey, I finally had some time and rewired my Joule thief and it works great!  It is running a large ultra bright led from a single AA bat. and it is what I would call bright. (Very bright)  I used the 2N3904 transistor for this one but I will fool around with some of the others that you guys mentioned. I had wired the wires from the ferrite incorrectly.  Instead of connecting 2 wires together, one from each side of the toroid, I had connected 2 from the same side and it did not work. (Duh)

We are having an ice storm here today but, when I get the time, I will test this out on my earth battery to see if it works the same as with the AA.

I really appreciate all of the information supplied here from you guys.  From what I have read here, and on the net, these have been around for some time.  what I don't understand is...if I were designing and marketing a small flashlight of some kind, why would I not add this circuit to it so it could run longer and on "dead" batteries?  Seems to me to be a good selling point.  I know the transistor is pulsing the power and now I wonder what else might also run successfully on pulsed power as well?  Probably not a clock.  Small motors maybe?  Little fans like computer fans?

I know it does not take all that much to impress me these days, but I really like this circuit.

Bill


Offline WilbyInebriated

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Re: Jule Thief
« Reply #57 on: December 01, 2008, 08:20:05 PM »
nice job bill! success is always fun :)
keep playing with it and remember, newer is not always better.  ;)

Offline Walter Hofmann

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Re: !
« Reply #58 on: December 01, 2008, 09:51:02 PM »
Hi all,
maybe you can try this IC from linear
http://www.linear.com/pc/downloadDocument.do?navId=H0,C1,C1003,C1094,C1766,P80613,D26511
greetings
walt

yes they are? wanna post your math for this?
you obviously read the link, you referred bill to it... so you must have missed this part about your super efficient pr4401?

"With this we turn to a surface-mount chip that has been designed to carry out the exact same task as circuit B. The chip is called PR4401. 
I could not find any sales literature on the internet, but the manufacturer requires 9,000 pieces to be bought at a cost of 36 cents per piece. This comes to $3,240 if you want to incorporate it into your project.
I have described the pro's and con's of this chip in another article "Circuit Tricks" and you should read the features and work out what they really mean.
When you build circuit "B," you will realize the specifications given in the .pdf for the chip, could be improved. We have achieved a supply current of 18mA for an equivalent brightness of 10mA. The chip requires 25mA. So, all the technology in the world has not surpassed a hand-made circuit."

outperforms by a factor of 2 huh?
and i'm gonna fathom a guess that you also missed the 'circuit tricks' article...

"Now we come to a critical analysis of the chip.
1. The data for the chip states it will operate for 55 hours at 33mA, on a single AA alkaline cell, for an end-voltage of 0.9v. This gives a consumption of 1815mAhr.  The capacity of an AA alkaline cell is 2400mAhr when taken to a terminal voltage of 0.8v.
This means the chip is using only 75% of the capacity of the cell.
2. The second point to note is the maximum input voltage for the chip. This is 1.9v.
The chip will not trigger or start properly if the supply voltage is above 1.9v.
This is a big limitation. How many projects work from a single cell? If the chip was designed to operate from 2 cells (3v), the terminal voltage (meaning the end-voltage) could be as low as 1v and this would mean each cell could be used to an end-voltage of 0.5v. This would almost double the number of hours per cell, giving a total of more than 200 hours from two cells.
3. The cost of the chip is about 36 cents when buying 9,000 IC's. This is an outlay of more than $3,200 for a single item.
The cost is too high when you consider its function. It should be less than 8 cents. When you see the Chinese using the chip in a project, you know the price is right. I will wait for this to happen.
4. No supplier for the chip could be found on the internet and the other components (inductor and surface-mount white LED) are also difficult to buy as a single item.
I searched the internet for 3 hours and could not find a supplier or price for the IC. I finally had to contact the manufacturer. Their minimum order was 9,000 pieces!!!!
5. The chip shuts down when the cell voltage reaches 0.9v. This is to prevent deep discharge. This is ok for a rechargeable cell as some have a "memory" and should not be fully discharged, but an alkaline cell can be fully used-up before it is thrown away. Why not use the maximum energy from this type of cell?
6. Their .pdf document for the PR4401 had a number of technical inaccuracies and I wrote to them with the corrections. Up to this point in time, I have not received a reply!!"

limitations indeed. and you think this is one of the 'easiest'?, you can't even buy them, unless you want to drop a couple grand... i guess it also says something about taking datasheets at face value, why would they lie? dunno, maybe cause they are trying to sell them... come on captain obvious, that one is obvious. says something about actually doing the experiment and taking your own measurements, need i say more?

btw, thanks for letting us all know that a simple blocking oscillator is not OU, even though no one claimed it was... captain obvious strikes again ;)


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Jule Thief
« Reply #59 on: December 02, 2008, 03:04:10 AM »
@ All:

I decided to post 2 pictures of my joule thief.  I forgot to mention that I used a 10mm 28,000 mcd LED (white) which calls for 3.5-4 v and 20 mA to operate.  The photo with it illuminated does not let you see the single AA battery but, it is there.  I thought it would show up but the led is so bright, my shutter blocked out a lot of light surrounding it.

I just found out Ace hardware is selling a string of Christmas led lights with 36 leds and the transformer for $3.99 US.  Heck, I paid almost that much for the 1 led from Radio Shack!!!  I am going to pick up some to play with.

Bill

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Jule Thief
« Reply #59 on: December 02, 2008, 03:04:10 AM »

 

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