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Author Topic: Atmospheric powerplant  (Read 10494 times)

Aleksey

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Atmospheric powerplant
« on: October 05, 2008, 04:06:36 AM »
Please, write what is wrong with this reasoning:

Atmospheric powerplant

The main idea of global warming is that greenhouse gases prevent the energy from leaving the surface of planet. In the same time the upper layers of the troposphere are much colder and successfully emit the infrared radiation to the outer space.  So to stop the global warming it is necessary to organize the moving of the heat from the lower layers of the atmosphere to the upper layers.
Also we know that the heat engine performs the conversion of heat energy to mechanical work by exploiting the temperature gradient between a hot "source" and a cold "sink". So the moving of the heat from the lower layers of the atmosphere to the upper layers can be done with some output of the mechanical work. The amounts of this mechanical work can be huge as we know on example of a tropical cyclone. The working body of the cyclone is simply the moist air, which releases the heat by water vapour condensation when rises. So to make the atmospheric heat engine it is necessary to make the construction in which the  moist air is circulating in organized manner between the lower and upper layers of the troposphere. Therefore the height of this construction has to be about the height of the troposphere. Also this construction has to be able to withstand the strength of the winds. These requirements can make the creation of such constructions too expensive and non profitable.

To solve the construction problems of the atmospheric heat engine the present synopsis suggest to use the principles of the hot air balloon. If the moist air, which is the working body, will have the average temperature, which is higher then the average surround air temperature, then the atmospheric heat engine will be buoyant. In this case the powerplant will travel with air and it will not be necessary to  withstand the winds. Also in this case the construction will be as light and cheap as possible for such a device.
To get the additional energy to keep the average temperature difference the atmospheric powerplant can convert some part of produced mechanical work back into the heat energy. Also to minimize the necessary temperature difference the device can be constructed as Rozière balloon which has separate chambers for a non-heated lifting gas (such as hydrogen or helium). While traveling over the water surface the atmospheric powerplant can replenish its hydrogen reserve by converting the water into the hydrogen and the oxygen. In this case some part of hydrogen can later be used as fuel to increase the  temperature of the working body.
To transfer the produced energy to the ground the atmospheric powerplant can convert mechanical work to the electricity and then use the cellular network of sockets. The connection and disconnection has to be made on the fly without stopping the powerplant using some device like helicopter. In the seas and oceans such sockets can be placed on special floating platforms with electrical accumulators or devices, which convert the water into the hydrogen and the oxygen.

The illustrated synopsis:
http://www.globalfrozing.com/Atmospheric_powerplant_synopsis.html

The possible structure of the atmospheric powerplant is
depicted as dissection on the picture:
1 -  chambers for a non-heated lifting gas
2 -  top part of the balloon, which dispose the heat to the top layers of troposphere
3 -  the lower part of the balloon, which absorb the heat from the lower layers of troposphere
4 -  turbine, which convert part of mechanical work into electricity
5 -  heating device, which works using electricity or hydrogen combustion
6 -  utility unit which works as ballast and can contain electrical accumulators, control system, pilot cabin, wires and pipes to connect with the ground, connection sockets, etc.


ChileanOne

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Re: Atmospheric powerplant
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2008, 03:01:45 PM »
Hello!

Nothing wrong with your idea, but also, few things new.  The solar towers and other convection harvesting devices exist both in theory and practice. The problem is cost/benefit. Your "Balloon" idea could make it cheaper, but what kind of material is so abundant, durable and cheap to build a working proof of concept?


Look at the prototipe built in Spain.
http://www.enviromission.com.au/project/project.htm

christo4_99

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Re: Atmospheric powerplant
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2008, 03:38:38 PM »
the heat has a tendency to reside in the co2,simply heating it and making it rise will not release the heat,with this device you would be essentially heating the upper atmosphere...there is something similar to this where they use caustic soda to absorb the co2

Paul-R

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Re: Atmospheric powerplant
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2008, 04:08:23 PM »
I think something was built in Israel. Search under "tornadio in a can".
Paul.

Aleksey

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Re: Atmospheric powerplant
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2008, 06:28:12 AM »

Aleksey

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Re: Atmospheric powerplant
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2008, 07:16:49 AM »
Hello!

Nothing wrong with your idea, but also, few things new.  The solar towers and other convection harvesting devices exist both in theory and practice. The problem is cost/benefit. Your "Balloon" idea could make it cheaper, but what kind of material is so abundant, durable and cheap to build a working proof of concept?
Yes, also it has to be lightning-proof somehow. Difficult question.
Quote from: ChileanOne

Look at the prototipe built in Spain.
http://www.enviromission.com.au/project/project.htm

I think you see the differences from the solar towers:
1) Solar towers are now limited to 1 km. To move the heat through the greenhouse gases up out of the planet it is necessary to have the 10 km height. It is possible by making the tower lighter-then-air, but it will have the monstrous windage and so it will be difficult to keep it anchored.
2) Solar towers use only the half of the circle. The cooled air travels down without making the work.
3) Solar towers do not use evaporation-condensation circle. If they will use it then they will move the water vapour up ( they do this partially now, "unintentionally"). Water vapour is the main greenhouse gas. 1 km possibly OK, but spreading the water at the height of 10 km does not look wise in our situation. :-)

Aleksey

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Re: Atmospheric powerplant
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2008, 07:20:01 AM »
the heat has a tendency to reside in the co2,simply heating it and making it rise will not release the heat,with this device you would be essentially heating the upper atmosphere...there is something similar to this where they use caustic soda to absorb the co2
I hope the upper atmosphere will release the heat away from planet by infrared.

hammuraby

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Re: Atmospheric powerplant
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2009, 10:13:56 AM »
there is an russian project developped for use a geotemic whit atmosheric temperature, for make an continouse under control tornado ..
as a tornado in a can....and by belance from summer -HOT and winter -cold; this work for 365/365
somebody that read russian ??

brian334

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Re: Atmospheric powerplant
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2009, 01:47:00 PM »
Global warming is better than global cooling. Humidity in the air keeps the planet warm, this machine would remove large amounts of humidity from the atmosphere possibly causing a ice age.
Also there is at least 1 U.S. patent on a invention very similar to yours.

hammuraby

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Re: Atmospheric powerplant
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2009, 06:11:32 PM »
hi,@brian 33,
VERYintrestinging is that you (beetwin the files), say that is a soluction of global warming....
trust me.... I know that. " in the wine-cellas in US there is averything !!" ....

but, can you show what is the us patent that you are talking about ??

this device is use for have a electric power from the up-down curling air flow, like in a Tornadoes
this tornado make from the DELTA thermic between air, and underground geo-thermic ....
and the delta can be maintaining stable whit sun charge in summer...
THIS IS A CAN FOR THE HEART OF TONADOthe curling rising
out side the curling whit direction down;
this is not for take humidity from the atmospheric air.

jadaro2600

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Re: Atmospheric powerplant
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2009, 09:51:29 PM »
Yea, lets put more hot air into the upper atmosphere.

hammuraby

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Re: Atmospheric powerplant
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2009, 03:04:10 PM »
yes, this is possible.....
but whit a menagement of surface water, that reach the water uphill ,
no problem for athmosferic danger;
and a air compressed for stop the true tornado...

the power of device is 1,5 mega W

christo4_99

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Re: Atmospheric powerplant
« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2009, 06:07:37 AM »
i only wanted to post here to relate one concept:the release of co2 into the atmosphere causes warming in that the atmospheric gases are just that,gases and the c in the co2 is a solid,solids retain heat.that is the problem.the bonded carbon is a heat retainer.co2 is 33% solid and 66% gas,not by weight but by form.it is the 33% solid that is the problem.
 as far as your idea:look into actual wind current and how they swirl northward and southward at the eqautor...this is the place for you...if you made it big enough it would work.

hammuraby

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Re: Atmospheric powerplant
« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2009, 10:32:11 AM »
what made a solid state, end gas, is ONLY the atomic density, becausa a atomic heavyness of H is 1, oxigen is 8, and C is 8 (same)
that naturally at 1 ATM is diffrent the state of density between C and CO2....
the CO2 is  more heavy and more mass then other gas, but NOT too much...

YOUR is a OLD thinking , because a KIOTO protocoll will be turn (2012) in Chopenaghen Protocoll

is then usefull take avay a C from the athmosfhere using a bio-charb, that is formed from phirolisy of wood... a 1 Kg of charbon (2 Lt ?) is the same of 3 Kg of CO2, (1,63 Kg a Mt3) that means 2000Lt of Co2 in a 2Lt of BIO-charb = as a 1000 BAR undergraund boundage

this is a OLD doingness usefull only for a FINANCIAL feed-back of OIL company

triffid

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Re: Atmospheric powerplant
« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2009, 02:44:21 PM »
You guys are forgetting about methane gas(which absorbs 20 time the heat that CO2 does).By the way a gas is a solid that is in its gasous phase.Just take away enough heat and all of these gases become solids.CO2 and methane will freeze solid when temps drop enough.Triffid