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Author Topic: MARS and back in 2 days...  (Read 51899 times)

Offline Steven Dufresne

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Re: MARS and back in 2 days...
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2008, 09:27:06 PM »
Nullifying the effect of gravity would go a long way towards getting off Earth. Cancelling the effect of inertia would also help since a small push from a rocket would result in a larger effect.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: MARS and back in 2 days...
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2008, 09:27:06 PM »

Offline exxcomm0n

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Re: MARS and back in 2 days...
« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2008, 10:22:23 PM »
Nullifying the effect of gravity would go a long way towards getting off Earth.
<snip>

In that regard (since sci-fi is mentioned in the 1st post) why don't we use "beanstalks" to nullify the earths immediate gravitational effect?

A beanstalk is, very simplistically, an elevator to a satellite in geosynchronous orbit with an area on the earth,

I don't know which sci-fi author thgought of and wrote about the concept 1st, but it's in a host of novels since.

Heinlein and Niven seem to stick in my mind.

As for gravity and time, we do know how they immediately effect us, but it's a far place from actual total understanding of the effects.

An excellent topic though.

We need space travel since there are just too many of us for the planet to support.

:(

Offline utilitarian

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Re: MARS and back in 2 days...
« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2008, 10:47:47 PM »
In that regard (since sci-fi is mentioned in the 1st post) why don't we use "beanstalks" to nullify the earths immediate gravitational effect?

A beanstalk is, very simplistically, an elevator to a satellite in geosynchronous orbit with an area on the earth,


Actually, the idea of a space elevator has been explored.  The current problem is that there is not a material strong enough to make the elevator from.  Interestingly, scientists have figured out that we actually could put a space elevator on Mars, because gravity is lower there.

Offline Steven Dufresne

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Re: MARS and back in 2 days...
« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2008, 02:06:50 AM »
In that regard (since sci-fi is mentioned in the 1st post) why don't we use "beanstalks" to nullify the earths immediate gravitational effect?

A beanstalk is, very simplistically, an elevator to a satellite in geosynchronous orbit with an area on the earth,

I don't know which sci-fi author thgought of and wrote about the concept 1st, but it's in a host of novels since.

Heinlein and Niven seem to stick in my mind.

Clarke with Fountains of Paradise, a good read. A russian, don't recall who, reportedly first came up with it though.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org

Offline exxcomm0n

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Re: MARS and back in 2 days...
« Reply #19 on: July 01, 2008, 02:53:59 AM »
Actually, the idea of a space elevator has been explored.  The current problem is that there is not a material strong enough to make the elevator from.  Interestingly, scientists have figured out that we actually could put a space elevator on Mars, because gravity is lower there.

I looked it up and found a story that said they are hoping to use carbon nanotubes for tensile strength and weight concerns. It's being explored by NASA's 5-50yr. R&D dept.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: MARS and back in 2 days...
« Reply #19 on: July 01, 2008, 02:53:59 AM »
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Offline Bubba1

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Re: MARS and back in 2 days...
« Reply #20 on: July 01, 2008, 03:57:38 AM »
In that regard (since sci-fi is mentioned in the 1st post) why don't we use "beanstalks" to nullify the earths immediate gravitational effect?

A beanstalk is, very simplistically, an elevator to a satellite in geosynchronous orbit with an area on the earth,...

Here on Earth, the elevator would have to be over 22,000 miles long, starting somewhere on the equator.

Offline exxcomm0n

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Re: MARS and back in 2 days...
« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2008, 04:18:09 AM »
Here on Earth, the elevator would have to be over 22,000 miles long, starting somewhere on the equator.

It wouldn't just be here on earth for the concept to work. ;)

I suppose that the logical way to do it would be to build and lower from space. But that would mean a LOT of supply voyages while building, but start in lowest orbit and attach, then maneuver out from there.

The material for the tether/shaft is the key.

Now this space/time folding thingy for space travel.......

Whew! Not quite as easily conceptualized.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: MARS and back in 2 days...
« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2008, 04:18:09 AM »
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Offline Steven Dufresne

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Re: MARS and back in 2 days...
« Reply #22 on: July 01, 2008, 03:24:13 PM »
There is a group working on actual hardware for the space elevator concept... though their website has the lift date to orbit as Oct 27, 2031. So far, as far as I can find, they've climbed 1500 feet.
 http://www.liftport.com
 http://youtube.com/watch?v=QjcaQT_ssE4
-Steve
http://rimstar.org

Offline Steven Dufresne

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Re: MARS and back in 2 days...
« Reply #23 on: July 01, 2008, 03:38:13 PM »
In the Wave Structure of Matter (WSM) model, gravity is due to increased density of space (the fabric, that is, like ether) due to all those waves from all the particles of Earth. So you'd need to block those waves from interacting with your heavy spacecraft, basically a shield below your spacecraft. The Earthward side would intercept those waves such that on the spaceward side, space would be less dense. This less dense space would mean the sparecraft, located on the spaceward side of the shield, would have less weight so the rockets don't have to do nearly as much work.

Hmmm... putting another shield on the spaceward side of the spacescraft would block waves from that direction, reducing inertia. Very small rockets needed, provided the shield is lightweight. The rockets would be outside the shields.

Now, just gotta figure out how to build the shields...
-Steve
http://rimstar.org

Offline triffid

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Re: MARS and back in 2 days...
« Reply #24 on: July 01, 2008, 08:36:41 PM »
I think that we should use Lakhovsky coils to power our starships with.Lakhovsky coils I think could be used to supply electricity since they are powered by cosmic rays.Cosmic rays are everywhere we look in space.The coils also are powered by radio waves and magnetic fields.So someone needs to develope these coils are a power source.Triffid

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: MARS and back in 2 days...
« Reply #24 on: July 01, 2008, 08:36:41 PM »
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Offline Koen1

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Re: MARS and back in 2 days...
« Reply #25 on: July 02, 2008, 10:56:48 AM »
I think there is more energy to be gotten from all the people
talking about crap like Lakovski coils and Leedskalin tests,
than there is in those "devices" themselves.

And I think it would be great to actually have a "warp" drive,
but to do so we must either create a very strong gravity field
ourselves which would probably royally mess up the mechanics of
our solar system, or we would have to wrap our ship in a
negative energy bubble, which so far is impossible.
Don't see many other ways of doing it without "transdimensional
shifting" into a "subspace" or "hyperspace" domain... ;)

Offline utilitarian

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Re: MARS and back in 2 days...
« Reply #26 on: July 03, 2008, 12:43:38 AM »
I think there is more energy to be gotten from all the people
talking about crap like Lakovski coils and Leedskalin tests,
than there is in those "devices" themselves.

And I think it would be great to actually have a "warp" drive,
but to do so we must either create a very strong gravity field
ourselves which would probably royally mess up the mechanics of
our solar system, or we would have to wrap our ship in a
negative energy bubble, which so far is impossible.
Don't see many other ways of doing it without "transdimensional
shifting" into a "subspace" or "hyperspace" domain... ;)

Well the good news right now is that we do not really need faster than light travel to explore or colonize our own solar system, which is the next logical step for mankind.  Something faster than rockets would be great, and I think it's coming within this century.  But really, even the two months it takes to get to Mars is tolerable.  We just have to figure out a way to lower the costs of getting out of Earth's gravity.  Space elevator should help here, if we can get that going.  A similar space elevator on Mars, and then it's cake!

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: MARS and back in 2 days...
« Reply #27 on: July 03, 2008, 12:53:18 AM »
Well,
why don?t they start the spaceshuttle without rockets first, but fly like a normal
plane so high, until the air is too thin, that they will not get higher ...

Then they finally could switch to rocket propulsion and lift the space shuttle the rest of the
few Kms into the space.

Would probably consume much lower fuel cost.
At least save the first stages of the rockets on the space shuttle...

Offline exxcomm0n

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Re: MARS and back in 2 days...
« Reply #28 on: July 03, 2008, 03:22:52 AM »
Well,
why don?t they start the spaceshuttle without rockets first, but fly like a normal
plane so high, until the air is too thin, that they will not get higher ...

Then they finally could switch to rocket propulsion and lift the space shuttle the rest of the
few Kms into the space.

Would probably consume much lower fuel cost.
At least save the first stages of the rockets on the space shuttle...

Hi Stephan.

For the space shuttle to get into the atmosphere, it would have to use it's rear rocket nozzles for propulsion, even if it were flying like a plane instead of shooting like a rocket. Jet/rocket propulsion is all it's got.

It would still need a few big tanks to supply the rockets with hydrogen and oxygen for burn.

I do know that the shuttle HAS been piggy-backed (attached to the back of) to a 747 for testing and I always wondered why they just didn't launch that way, or using a Sikorsky crane helicopter  to get it into atmosphere.

All those big tanks you see attached to it on the rocket launch pad are fuel JUST TO GET IT OUT OF EARTHS GRAVITY!
I bet the big one could be done away with for a atmosphere launch

That's a lot of liquid hydrogen and oxygen.

Atmospheric launches just make sense vs. ground launches.

Good point.

Offline utilitarian

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Re: MARS and back in 2 days...
« Reply #29 on: July 03, 2008, 03:25:33 AM »
Well,
why don?t they start the spaceshuttle without rockets first, but fly like a normal
plane so high, until the air is too thin, that they will not get higher ...

Then they finally could switch to rocket propulsion and lift the space shuttle the rest of the
few Kms into the space.

Would probably consume much lower fuel cost.
At least save the first stages of the rockets on the space shuttle...

Ah, now you are getting into rocket science!  I am no rocket scientist, but from what I remember, a combo jet/rocket booster module was actually on the drawing board.  I think it got scrapped because of the complexity and added weight of having to have two separate sets of engines and separate fuel sections.  Also, from what I understand, the added weight of oxygen (in liquid or solid form) does not add that much weight to the rocket, so having an all rocket booster module works out fairly well.

So, in a nutshell, rocket propulsion is still needed, and a pure rocket system worked out to be simpler and, I believe, more economical than a combo system.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: MARS and back in 2 days...
« Reply #29 on: July 03, 2008, 03:25:33 AM »

 

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