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Hydrogen energy => Water arc energy systems => Topic started by: gotoluc on June 27, 2008, 12:01:38 AM

Title: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 27, 2008, 12:01:38 AM
Hi :D everyone,

I believe I have found an efficient way to change water to a fuel.

See Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxnRQ7fkWtE

                                                 This page has been updated October 8th 2008 and is titled:

                                                                   "Ganga Shakti - Water Power"

If this is the first time you are viewing this page I ask you to share this link immediately to everyone you have in your email address list and ask them to do the same no matter what you or they may think. We need to give this back to the World a.s.a.p.

Next I ask everyone to stop experimenting if you can and help with this, since I believe it is the one of the most promising real effect at this time (that I know of) that is fully shared on the Internet. Nothing will be hidden here. You can view the development of everything that is going on.

Now let me give you some background on this. For a couple of years now I was a member of a Yahoo Group called: WaterFuel1978.
At this group user name: s1r9a9m9 claims to have one of his cars working on water and says that one of the parts he uses to do this is an inverter and also some relays. However, no one to date have been able to replicate it and the site dates back since, Jul 30, 2005. On or around June 25th, 2008 s1r9a9m9 posted 2 videos on youtube to show a 18HP one cylinder engine running on water. The video is quite convincing, however he is hiding the important parts to make this work.

After seeing the videos I posted this message to s1r9a9m9 at the WaterFuel1978 Group:

Dear S1R, thank you for the 2 videos which now would make it very hard to say it does not work.

However it is a sad day to think of the years that passed by and our World is getting wasted by these greedy fossil fuel controllers and
to think that all this time you have been a chosen one to put the pieces together that could change all that... and what do you do with it, hide it, just as they do.

All gift of knowledge comes from one place and it is testing man to see what he does with it. All that is good to help keep balance is
meant to be shared with all...just as the structure of the Universe keeps balance and is giving. When one stops the flow that would be
good for Billions of others I would think of that as a great sin and your life could be in much greater danger than you think. All who have tried to control their inventions that could of made our World a better place have lost their life over it or have been bought out just to hide the information. I'm sure Stanley Meyer would do it differently if he had a second chance but it's too late when your dead and the knowledge is lost.

Hiding things will not protect you, sharing will...since you will be welcomed in all the homes of America and the World as a Hero. Now
that is protection if you think you need it. By hiding things you are doing exactly as they want and that makes a small target for them since it is not spread out and can be easily extinguished, 99.99% of the World won't even know it has happen.

You chose your destiny. But I am here to help you in every way I humanly can and I think many others who are here are ready to do the
same. I hope this time we can do it all together, united we stand, divided we

I have hope.

Luc

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


I have believed for many years that water could be used as a fuel.

The next day I posted the message to s1r9a9m9 I started a replication attempts of his system and while working on it I accidentally shorted the DC side of the bridge rectifier and saw a flame spark which made me think of plasma. So I tried many different circuit possibilities to try and incorporate this short circuit effect when the high voltage spark jumped the gap. After 2 days of work I came up with a very simple circuit which is posted at the bottom of this page. I had to work hard to make the circuit so simple since our minds think something like this should be complicated, so don't come to the conclusion that something so simple will not work until you try it. At the botton is my original circuit but I updated the diode part number and the quantity thanks to user name: callanan's added his improvement ideas. His circuit is more complex than mine and could work for you if you are advanced enough in electronics but one way or the other I would recommend (if you want to replicate) that you start with the simple circuit first and after seeing the effect you can add the extra components if you wish. Please note that I believe both circuits give the same effect.

Also, please note that most Spark plug have a resistance in them which needs to be removed. In many models of Spark Plugs you can remove the resistor by heating up the ceramic around the top electrode to unlock the seal and then unscrew it and remove the resistor and spring and replace it with a piece of 10 gauge copper wire or 3 pieces of 14 gauge regular home copper wiring to complete the contact. Make sure the wire you added touches the top electrode just before it sets when you are screwing it back in. Here is a Video Demo of a resistor being removed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-J2AHNZUZD0  The gap of the plug can be standard but you could play with it after a successful replication and see what it does. We will be testing all these things and updating this page with the most current information, so keep checking this page for updates.

A note about the video above. I realized only after seeing the video that you cannot see the complete flame that I was seeing when doing the demonstration video. There is an orange red glow around the spark when the water explodes which the video does not pick-up. Also take note that not much water is needed to see the glow and you can kill the effect if you add too much water mist.

Thank you for looking and please remember to Share.

Luc

New, added July 26th

Thanks to the great work of Ashtweth of http://www.panaceauniversity.org/ we now have a compilation of all the shared finding in one .pdf file
Click this link to download: http://www.panaceauniversity.org/Water%20Spark%20Plug.pdf

New, added August 22nd
Below is the circuit description that I am testing at this time and the Schematic is (in black) at the bottom of the page. It was drawn for me by user name: Aka from a hand drawn circuit I posted. Thanks Aka for your help ;)

The differences from the original circuit is this one has a Charge Inductor, a smaller uf value Non Polarized Capacitor and 1N5408 1000 volt rated diodes.

It is more advanced and if you are a beginner, I would recommend the original circuit and don't bother using an inverter. Just use your home power from the outlets.

Description:

The Full Wave Bridge Rectifier is a standard off the self item 400v  5 amps or more if you wish.

The Air Core Charge Inductor I made is from a primary of a MOT that I cut out and recoiled it. The Inductor center opening is 38mm. The O.D. is 60mm and the width is 40mm. From what I can tell the Mag Wire is about 14 Gauge. The coils DC resistance is 0.4 Ohms and measures 2.23mH on my inductance meter.

The Relay is an Automotive 12vdc relay rated 40A/30A which is SPDT . I did not show the relay coil in the diagram since the black marker I was using is too large to show details. The relays rest position is on the bridge to cap. I use a 12vdc battery to activate the relay coil to discharge the cap to the coil and diode string.

The Capacitor is 6.8uf 250 AC (non polarized). I go this this cap out an old heavy wood 30" color TV unit. I don't know why but this cap takes the best peak charges and gives an amazing bang for its uF size ???  My capacitance meter says it is 6.9uf but gives the same kind of bang as my 22uf 350v polarized, which I also check on meter and it is actually 26uf. I don't understand that.

The Coil is an Automotive Coil made by Accel part on. 8140C. The Primary DC resistance is 1.3 Ohms and measures 6.46mH on inductance meter. Secondary DC resistance is 9.10 K Ohms and I cannot measure H on my meter.

The Diodes are a string of 6 of 1N5408 in series and are rated at 1000 volts at 3A each.

The Spark Plug used for spark gap is from a 3HP gas lawn mower engine that will be used for testing the circuit. Modifications to the plug are: I cut off the J electrode and also filed down the center electrode so both are at same level. With this mod. the Plug now has a 3mm gap. The plugs internal resistor has been removed and replaced with 3 pcs. of correct length 14 gauge solid copper wire to complete the contact.


___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

This is calanan's more advanced circuit to use with a signal generator:

(http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5024.0;attach=24456)

This is my circuit which is updated and very simple to build and can be operated with a switch or a relay:
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on June 27, 2008, 12:10:28 AM
GREAT JOB LuC!!!! ;D

Whats the part number or value for the bridge? I wanna try too  ;D
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 27, 2008, 12:33:04 AM
GREAT JOB LuC!!!! ;D

Whats the part number or value for the bridge? I wanna try too  ;D

Hi xbox hacker, It does not matter as long as it can take about 10 amps.

I got to go for some hours, so I won't be available till late tonight E.S.T.

Luc

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: futuristic on June 27, 2008, 12:51:19 AM
Great work!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on June 27, 2008, 01:09:10 AM
Great  job Luc

 :)

I am  not sure that I  agree  with you that  radiant  energy is involved .
I do  think   that   your  system is  VERY efficient and  may  be the way to go .

can you  post a  drawing  of  your circuit ?   


gary
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on June 27, 2008, 01:27:26 AM
OK...back to the topic![/i]
Luc: have you abandoned the in-circuit coil idea?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ninjadaniel on June 27, 2008, 01:55:17 AM
Hey mate, very good work- like i said in your video.  great camera work and excelent explanations for such a simple circuit.  In my tests i found that the HVR-1x microwave diode didnt completely block the HV from the coil (being run by a jacobs ladder kit) and because of this i was weary of connecting it to my AC generator.

Once again- good work.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Bob Smith on June 27, 2008, 04:48:46 AM
Nice work, Luc. I think you hit the nail on the head regarding the simplicity of this kind of circuit.  Bedini and Bearden talk about the downword side of a short, sharp voltage spike as being capable of drawing radiant energy into a circuit. You seem to have achieved this phenomenon.

B
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: geovel56 on June 27, 2008, 07:06:46 AM
GREAT WORK Luc!

I can hardly wait to see the schematic diagrams of this circuit and parts list.  I am also on the Yahoo group as I am sure many others here are also.  I have 2 donor cars now.  The first is a '74 Chevy Blazer with virtually the same engine that S1R's El Camino has (350 with standard 4 banger and interchangeable jets).  My 2nd donor car is a '98 Ford Windstar with all the pollution and computer crap on it.

The team I have assembled will post every success, failure, trial and tribulation to this forum as well as on the Yahoo group forum.  Making all this as PUBLIC DOMAIN as possible is what will keep everyone safe and secure without any threats from the "MIB" as they are called on the Yahoo forum.

Our goal is to get the Blazer working first, gather all the necessary data that the newer car's computer systems receive from their various sensors, and then either design circuits to fool the computer or hopefully find someone skilled in the art to be able to reprogram the computer altogether.

I will keep everyone posted!

Regards,
Geo
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ninjadaniel on June 27, 2008, 07:10:34 AM
Luc,  try running more than 1 hvr-1x diode in parallel to allow more dc current flow to the plug, those diodes are 12kv 0.5a.

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Haliburton on June 27, 2008, 07:21:30 AM
WOW look great!!!!!!! 8)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nightlife on June 27, 2008, 08:05:45 AM
Good job Luc.  8)

 As far as it being the same as mdbreedi's Cold Fusion Plasma 9 video, I have to disagree. Yours is more controllable as well as the heat is not as hot and therefore makes for a better design.

 We have to keep the heat down when burning HHO due to the intensity of the heat that HHO can produce. The heat will melt the pistons but your setup doesn?t seam to be that hot and therefore may just be what we need.

 I would like to see the results while under compression. A good test motor maybe something like a weed eater or lawn mower engine.

 All in all, congratulations and thank you for sharing your experiment and details of your experiment with us.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 27, 2008, 08:56:45 AM
Luc.

Have you checked out the effect of putting the small coil you were using previously, (Saw all videos)
between the HV diode and the Plug.  I think you will be VERY happy and surprised with the result.

Just a thought.

As a little "Correction", what you are using IS a capacitive discharge ignition. 

Art.
Hi Loner, thanks for looking. I will try your suggestion above and introduce the coil at that location, however I would be surprised if it makes a better reaction but one never knows. I will post if it give better results.
 I also realize that I am using a capacitor discharge to get the coil to fire but that is not what is making this spark so strong but if you can get an automobile coil to fire like I am showing with a 150uf cap charged to 105vdc I would like to see that. Mainly why I was saying this is not a cap discharge making the spark so strong is that there is a topic going on this forum that is using a 330uf 175vdc cap discharge in addition to the HV coil discharge to make this kind of spark.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 27, 2008, 09:11:53 AM
Nice work, Luc. I think you hit the nail on the head regarding the simplicity of this kind of circuit.  Bedini and Bearden talk about the downword side of a short, sharp voltage spike as being capable of drawing radiant energy into a circuit. You seem to have achieved this phenomenon.

B
Hi Bob Smith, thanks for looking and your positive comment, you know it ;)

Luc

GREAT WORK Luc!

I can hardly wait to see the schematic diagrams of this circuit and parts list. I have 2 donor cars now. My 2nd donor car is a '98 Ford Windstar with all the pollution and computer crap on it.

I will keep everyone posted!

Regards,
Geo
Hi Geo, thanks for looking also. A schematic will come but I am asking for help to do a good looking one, so if anyone can help please do it as best you can from looking at the video and I will correct it if needed. I need to see support from everyone here, the schematic is not complicated.

Hey I also have a 98 Ford Windstar.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 27, 2008, 09:27:50 AM
Luc,  try running more than 1 hvr-1x diode in parallel to allow more dc current flow to the plug, those diodes are 12kv 0.5a.
Hi ninjadaniel, thanks for looking and the suggestion, I will try it.

Luc

WOW look great!!!!!!! 8)
Hi Haliburton, thank you also for looking.

Luc

Good job Luc.  8)

 As far as it being the same as mdbreedi's Cold Fusion Plasma 9 video, I have to disagree. Yours is more controllable as well as the heat is not as hot and therefore makes for a better design.

 We have to keep the heat down when burning HHO due to the intensity of the heat that HHO can produce. The heat will melt the pistons but your setup doesn?t seam to be that hot and therefore may just be what we need.

 I would like to see the results while under compression. A good test motor maybe something like a weed eater or lawn mower engine.

 All in all, congratulations and thank you for sharing your experiment and details of your experiment with us.
Hi nightlife, glad to see you here  ;D. You are so very correct  ;) this is not like anything out there. I just go a 4 stroke lawn mower motor from a friend. I will be testing it this weekend.

Stay tuned :D

Luc

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: vlindos on June 27, 2008, 10:24:27 AM
Here is what s1r says about the gotoluc video:
Quote
I watched it and he almost has the right
design. the only part is the second out put. it needs to go through a
coil with two windings through a main winding, this will boost the
voltage to the plug by about 80 percent more. The 110 volts needs to
boost the HV discharge more than what he has it doing. I am going to
post the parts but I want to find the comon parts that are used on
all the engines that are being tested before I do. The relay I first
used has two coils in it, we looked for them for a long time even as
we designed our own to test. NO you wont find F.A.S.T. Rescearch &
Development listed as a company name or any where other than on the
front of this group page. It is just a bumch of people got together
and do stuff that betters the way we live.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 27, 2008, 11:03:00 AM
Here is what s1r says about the gotoluc video:
Hi vlindos, thanks for looking :) and posting the coment s1r wrote. Here it is again and below are two other messages he has sent me.

Luc

I watched it and he almost has the right
design. the only part is the second out put. it needs to go through a
coil with two windings through a main winding, this will boost the
voltage to the plug by about 80 percent more. The 110 volts needs to
boost the HV discharge more than what he has it doing. I am going to
post the parts but I want to find the comon parts that are used on
all the engines that are being tested before I do. The relay I first
used has two coils in it, we looked for them for a long time even as
we designed our own to test.

Nice set up. If you use a coil with two windings going through a main coil to boost the out put spark up about 10 times what you have now you will have a system almost like mine. You can test your set up on a weed eater motor and know for sure that you have it. I like people like you who dont wait on slow folks like me. Thanks for the video and keep on sparking.

S1r9a9m9
OH yes ware some dark glasses before watching the sparks, dont hurt you eyes.

S1r9a9m9
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 27, 2008, 11:28:41 AM
Dear nightlife, thanks for your participation and enthusiasm. I would like to keep the posts at this time to the point we are at so not to confuse newcomers with too many things so I deleted your post. I think we are not ready for an injector system yet, unless you have it working?

What I think we should focus on at this time is replication, then everyones input for improvements and then testing it on a simple engine.

I have received an email from someone who wants to do the Schematic, so that will be posted soon.

Stay tuned

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: librame on June 27, 2008, 02:59:52 PM
Hi Bob Smith, thanks for looking and your positive comment, you know it ;)

Luc
Hi Geo, thanks for looking also. A schematic will come but I am asking for help to do a good looking one, so if anyone can help please do it as best you can from looking at the video and I will correct it if needed. I need to see support from everyone here, the schematic is not complicated.

Hey I also have a 98 Ford Windstar.

Luc


Looks like you got one outta the park, Luc. nice!

Here is a rough schematic from what I could gather out of the vid. Its a bit cartoonish, but its a start. I don't know if I got all the diode sizes right, but it was all done in paint so it will be easy to fix.

Cheers!


Added by gotoluc: Circuit is now added to first page. Thank you and great job.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Koen1 on June 27, 2008, 03:59:24 PM
@gotoluc: Great stuff Luc! :D
Once again I am impressed. ;D
Keep up the good work, I'll drop in every now and then ;)
:)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on June 27, 2008, 04:32:37 PM
Quote
Once  the  high  voltage  jumps the   gap in the spark plug  it   creates  a  plasma " channel " that is  relativly  low resistance .........  the much  lower voltage  can   follow this   path as long as the high  voltage maintains  the  channel
The high  voltage is in effect the switch  for  the lower  voltage .
From Cap70 i think..

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: innovation_station on June 27, 2008, 05:07:39 PM
l8r bro 8)

ist

luc 1 more thing wile im on this topic    lets add a tranny to the system  so we can increase the current  of the bemf  and a really kool thing would be if the battery was recharged as well as the fuel being burnt ...

how can we do this  ??   just add another coil and a plug to a return path to the battery.... 8)

so now you pay for the plug to be fired but it returns and burns the fuel for free  :) ;) 8)

enjoy!!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 27, 2008, 05:16:41 PM
Looks like you got one outta the park, Luc. nice!

Here is a rough schematic from what I could gather out of the vid. Its a bit cartoonish, but its a start. I don't know if I got all the diode sizes right, but it was all done in paint so it will be easy to fix.

Cheers!
Excellent work librame ;) , It looks very good.

Thanks for your great work.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 27, 2008, 05:40:44 PM
 The setup of the video was done in a garage and I had the garage door was open and outside was just starting to rain which became a major rain storm just after the video was done, there was a lightning hit less than a 100 feet away  :o, the timing of it all felt so perfect, like a confirmation from Mother Nature. So this is to let you all know that at the time I was doing the video I did not realize that the moisture in the air was also helping the spark since you can see I did not need to add water at every spark to make it work.

Luc

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 27, 2008, 06:12:13 PM
@gotoluc: Great stuff Luc! :D Once again I am impressed. ;D Keep up the good work, I'll drop in every now and then ;)

 Please let's stick to Lucs experiment?
Hi Koen1, thanks for coming by to add your comment to stick with a replication first before moving to other directions.

Replicate first, observe the effect then add one change at a time and if you find an improvement please post your finding. Other than that we will loose focus.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 27, 2008, 06:28:05 PM
l8r bro 8)

ist

luc 1 more thing wile im on this topic    lets add a tranny to the system  so we can increase the current  of the bemf  and a really kool thing would be if the battery was recharged as well as the fuel being burnt ...

how can we do this  ??   just add another coil and a plug to a return path to the battery.... 8)

so now you pay for the plug to be fired but it returns and burns the fuel for free  :) ;) 8)

enjoy!!
Hi IS, thanks for coming to have a look. Excellent suggestions and everyones input has value here and is important but lets not go to much ahead at this time. Lets bring all these great suggestion when we need them. So IS please keep an eye on this topic and give your great ideas when others can start testing them. Thanks IS

At everyone, as you can see there are many good ideas an room for improvement. So build it fist and then try some of these out.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: innovation_station on June 27, 2008, 06:30:51 PM
i dont see how focous can be lost lol....

all leads back to the same  ;D

ist

lol
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 27, 2008, 06:39:42 PM
Hi Luc, in the video, are you first charging the cap with one lead and then removing it and firing it with the other lead or are you charging the cap and leaving the lead on while you fire with the other lead?

Hi nightlife, I am charging the cap at the bridge then disconnecting it then connecting it to the coil lead to fire the high voltage. Use a SPDT switch to do this first for replication. We will have a much better way to do this, so don't go too much ahead, unless you have replicated and you are ready to improve.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: powercat on June 27, 2008, 08:34:43 PM
Quote
Everyone, please... we want to keep this topic clean. DO NOT POST OTHER SUBJECTS.

Luc

Hi luc good idea

Here's the great video again for page 2  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8R2fNukDCPs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8R2fNukDCPs)

Great work :)
pc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hartiberlin on June 27, 2008, 09:01:54 PM
Luc, can you please try to remove the
diodes and just use the cap charge
and no connection from the inverter to the
sparkplug ?
Will this be the same discharge spark or
does the rectified AC also flow via
the spark discharge and make the spark bigger ?

Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Erfinder on June 27, 2008, 09:16:10 PM
Will this be the same discharge spark or
does the rectified AC also flow via
the spark discharge and make the spark bigger ?

Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.

Check Ed Gray's work.........

Regards
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: jibbguy on June 27, 2008, 10:35:31 PM
Congrats, Luc , this is a wonderful project and a great example of the Open Source Energy movement!!

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: 22vision on June 27, 2008, 11:06:43 PM
wow! I think I just some ious BOOM here I have a 555timer driving the coil with an MOSFET
I was getting the standard little spark from the plug. I just hooked up 2 3KV DC caps from an
old monitor across the plug and I am getting some very nice plasma sparks and what I consider
loud from previous tests. if I dribble some warer on it id gets much louder and there are flashes
of red all around the plug!  I think I am on to somthing here with this. the 555timer is just to pulse
the coil it is around 60hz and I can adjust it. I am going to experiment a bit more then try and get
somthing out to you all.

I will be on this weekend so feel free to ask questions.

22vision

maybe I will get a pic and so you can see  :  )
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 27, 2008, 11:14:39 PM
Luc, can you please try to remove the big diode and just use the cap charge and no connection from the inverter to the
sparkplug ?
Will this be the same discharge spark or does the rectified AC also flow via the spark discharge and make the spark bigger ?

Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.
Hi Stefan,
before starting this topic I did do many tests to find what works and what does not. It took about 30 hours to get it down to just this simple circuit. You should of seen the box of all the crap of stuff I took away before doing the video. One thing I can tell you is forget about what conventional electronics says should be.

To answer your questions above, no discharging the 150uf cap charged at 108vdc through the coil only with the rest of the circuit removed will only do a standard spark.

Also if I remove only the diodes and discharge the cap nothing happens.

Thanks  ;)

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 27, 2008, 11:34:14 PM
wow! I think I just some ious BOOM here I have a 555timer driving the coil with an MOSFET
I was getting the standard little spark from the plug. I just hooked up 2 3KV DC caps from an
old monitor across the plug and I am getting some very nice plasma sparks and what I consider
loud from previous tests. if I dribble some warer on it id gets much louder and there are flashes
of red all around the plug!  I think I am on to somthing here with this. the 555timer is just to pulse
the coil it is around 60hz and I can adjust it. I am going to experiment a bit more then try and get
somthing out to you all.

I will be on this weekend so feel free to ask questions.

22vision

maybe I will get a pic and so you can see  :  )
Wow :D , that's great news, mostly if you are seeing the red glow around the plug ;).

Keep us up to date.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: kremlin01 on June 28, 2008, 12:50:57 AM
Luc, great topic look forward to further developments.
Going to sleep on it now, if I can sleep!

Regards Bren.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on June 28, 2008, 01:46:48 AM
Hi Luc,

Thank you for your very interesting experiment.

Regards,

Ossie
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on June 28, 2008, 02:09:13 AM
OK...my setup, per Luc's plans.... I get a great spark... red-ish/white (it varies) nice little snap....BUT, i think it could be better!  I dont really have a "mister/sprayer" to fully test with also. I got a el-cheapo 400w inverter from harbor fright tools, does not seem to bog down at any times. I thought i would try a "normal" spark with the coil ... not that impressive!!! LOL  ;D

Also..how many Ohms (or less) should the plug be?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on June 28, 2008, 03:51:37 AM
UPDATE: I GOT A MUCH BETTER SPARK!!!!!...its almost as good as yours luc... ;D

my trick was to use a "spark gap arc checker" (i think its called) you can get them at any auto parts store, so the resistance is ultra LOW (until i can find the right plug).... i will post a image as soon as i get the pic off my phone. And have some MORE beer!

One interesting thing i did notice is: The checker has a screw that you adjust to make the gap from 0 to 1" .... the farther i make the gap the more DC volts i get from the tip to the ground... ??? normal?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hartiberlin on June 28, 2008, 04:45:47 AM
Hi Luc,
can you try to put your electrodes directly under water in a water bath and
see what happens then, when you make the discharge ?

Could you this way also make a boat propell due to water shockwaves ?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hartiberlin on June 28, 2008, 04:55:36 AM


To answer your questions above, no discharging the 150uf cap charged to 108vdc through the coil only with the rest of the circuit removed will only do a standard spark.



I see, many thanks for this answer.

Do you have a scope and can then show on a shuntresistor the
current through the brigde rectifier, when the spark gap has fired ?
Is is a 120 Hz pulse current train flowing from the inverter through the
spark gap then when the high voltage from the ignition coil has made
the sparkgap conductive ?

How many amps flow for how long during the spark ?

P.S: Luc, I will set you on elitemember status, so you can
open up a new thread and post there alone and lock the thread up,
so you can document it all in a row.
For historical reasons, I would like to keep
this thread as it is, so everybody can later see, when something
was invented by which person.

Many thanks for understanding.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: poynt99 on June 28, 2008, 04:59:46 AM
a very interesting circuit Luc :)

i think someone already mentioned that the coil spark is acting as a switch to gate-in the rectified inverter output. i would agree with this analysis. quite a neat action.

may the force be with you ;)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 28, 2008, 05:46:38 AM
Hi Luc,

Thank you for your very interesting experiment.
Regards,

Ossie
Hi Ossie, thanks for looking.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 28, 2008, 05:51:12 AM
Check Ed Gray's work.........

Regards
Hi Erfinder, thanks for looking at this topic. I am happy ;D to see you here. I hope we have the real thing here ;)

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 28, 2008, 06:07:51 AM
OK...my setup, per Luc's plans.... I get a great spark... red-ish/white (it varies) nice little snap....BUT, i think it could be better! All i could get my hands on is a 220uf/250v cap. So how important is the uF of the cap and what value should it be? I dont really have a "mister/sprayer" to fully test with also. I got a el-cheapo 400w inverter from harbor fright tools, does not seem to bog down at any times. I thought i would try a "normal" spark with the coil ... not that impressive!!! LOL  ;D

Also..how many Ohms (or less) should the plug be?
Great work xbox hacker ;D. The uf of the cap is not so important!.. I tested with different values and I could not see the difference and I don't know why that is yet, so experiment as you wish with that and post your findings.

You must use a spark plug with NO resistance in it. Look at my earlier post for the instructions on how to modify your plug. So the plug should be 0 ohms

UPDATE: I GOT A MUCH BETTER SPARK!!!!!...its almost as good as yours luc... ;D

my trick was to use a "spark gap arc checker" (i think its called) you can get them at any auto parts store, so the resistance is ultra LOW (until i can find the right plug).... i will post a image as soon as i get the pic off my phone. And have some MORE beer!

One interesting thing i did notice is: The checker has a screw that you adjust to make the gap from 0 to 1" .... the farther i make the gap the more DC volts i get from the tip to the ground... ??? normal?
That is a good tool to find ideal gap. Keep up the research and post your findings. If anyone here can help start collecting all the details and prepair a pdf of a parts list, how to modify the spark plug and all the new findings, that would be a great help.

Thanks to everyone here for the participation.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hydrocontrol on June 28, 2008, 06:09:37 AM
A possible experiment if you have two inverters is to bridge rectify the output on each inverter then add the outputs together in series to a large voltage capacitor get a higher output voltage.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 28, 2008, 06:12:23 AM
Hi Luc,
can you try to put your electrodes directly under water in a water bath and
see what happens then, when you make the discharge ?

Could you this way also make a boat propell due to water shockwaves ?
Hi Stefan, okay I'll try that for you :D but I have to let you know that I love boating and if it works you just might loose me ;D

Ah...the risks of research ;)

Do you have a scope and can then show on a shuntresistor the current through the brigde rectifier, when the spark gap has fired ?
Is is a 120 Hz pulse current train flowing from the inverter through the spark gap then when the high voltage from the ignition coil has made the sparkgap conductive ?

How many amps flow for how long during the spark ?
Regards, Stefan.
Yes I do have a new USB 40Mhz 100MS/s scope which also has a spectrum analyzer. But please know that electronics is not my thing so I may need a step by step (not to operate the scope) but on how and where to hook up the probes, also the max voltage input of the scope is 35 volts, the model of the scope is DSO-2090. I also have a shunt. So guide me through it.

As for pulse current train flowing from the inverter through the spark gap. I did as much as I know how to get this to happen when the high voltage from the ignition coil is triggered to make a conductive path for the RE Plasma from the inverter on the dc side of the bridge when shorted to go through the plug by means of the HV bridge.  I think a triple pulse circuit at every pulse would work much better but I need help on how to build that. I do have some 555 and many other parts but I need help with this.

I will try to measure the current draw and also report back.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 28, 2008, 06:45:07 AM
one thing i'm curious about: would the spark be better if you swapped the microwave diode with the 1N4007?

may the force be with you ;)
I'm not sure if I did that test? but that is a good idea. I'll try it now and let you know.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 28, 2008, 06:52:53 AM
A possible experiment if you have two inverters is to bridge rectify the output on each inverter then add the outputs together in series to a large voltage capacitor get a higher output voltage.
Hi hydrocontrol, thanks for looking :D.  Interesting idea you have there. I though about something like that but what I was thinking is inverters in Europe, would they not be already 220v or so?  Hope we can get someone from Europe, India or Astrailia to replicate this. We shall see.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: atlantex on June 28, 2008, 07:10:36 AM
Hi Luc,

thanks for sharing your discovery. The european inverters have an output of 230V AC.



cheers

atlantex
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 28, 2008, 07:28:40 AM
Hi Luc,

thanks for sharing your discovery. The european inverters have an output of 230V AC.

cheers

atlantex
Hi atlantex, thanks for your reply and looking at this topic. I hope we can get a replication with one of these and see the difference in the results.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: atlantex on June 28, 2008, 07:50:42 AM
hopefully the capacitor or something else doesn't blow up  ;)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: yaz on June 28, 2008, 09:22:23 AM
Video of a sparkplug plasma ball using only 9 volt batteries! Pure DC!
Wonder if hooking up a capacitor and/or inverter would increase the intensity?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iNCzhP7754&NR=1

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hydrocontrol on June 28, 2008, 09:38:03 AM
Hi Luc,

thanks for sharing your discovery. The european inverters have an output of 230V AC.



cheers

atlantex

Great.. The only problem being that this would be harder for people in the US to get one of these 230VAC inverters so I was thinking getting two 110VAC from WallyWorld and a couple of bridge rectifiers from RadioShaft would be easier. I think getting high voltage caps might be easy as a lot of computer power supplies have high voltage caps in them so a couple of scavanged dead computer power supplies could be the ticket for cheaper replication.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: pomodoro on June 28, 2008, 09:57:03 AM
I enjoyed the video but I have a feeling that you have found a novel way to explode water, using an unlimited supply of energy (the inverter). The way I see it, the coil ionizes some water molecules and the inverter is happy to provide the current through the nearly short circuit provided by the ionized water. And BANG! Not much energy would be required to blow up a few million molecules of water. So in a real scenario, you would need to provide more energy than that received by the expansion of the exploding water.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: willitwork on June 28, 2008, 10:45:44 AM
If the diagram is correct I presume the 1n4007 would be damaged by now. Can you please confirm if the 4007 is used between the coil and the plug and the microwave between the full wave and the plug. Could they be the other way around?

If the diagram is correct please confirm if the 4007 is still intact.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: jibbguy on June 28, 2008, 01:14:35 PM
i've been looking at the circuit diagram thinking about your q as to where to put the negative lead on the scope probe, and it is a good one... It's very easy to smoke a scope this way (and if it's attached to a PC, possibly smoke that too).

It is safest to leave the scope in AC mode and not use the ground at all (you will still get readings). This caution is because the whole circuit is floating off-ground; and most scopes powered by AC are "single-ended to ground" (non-isolated); unless advertised as "isolated" (rare and more expensive). Battery-powered 'scopes are easier and safer to use in this respect (...act like a DVM), but if interfaced via USB remember that it gets a ground via the PC so this is still very important to remember or damage to the PC could occur.

If you absolutely had to have DC measurement with an AC-powered or PC-interfaced scope, you would first need to earth-ground the negative of the battery and inverter (run a wire to the third hole in a wall socket).. This is assuming the plug ground actually was wired-up correctly in the wall, the scope itself is grounded via the third lug of the power cord, and that it plugs into the same AC circuit (..these things are not always true, lol), and then leave the neg. scope lead attached at that point (no other spot in that circuit will be "safe" for the ground lead, unless the scope is battery powered and not interfaced to a PC).

Some people try "cheating" by cutting off the third lug on the scope's power cord to "float" it: Bad idea; you can get badly shocked this way if you touch the chassis (unless you wired that house/garage yourself and are positively sure about the wiring).

Assuming that scope probe is a "X 1" with the usual 1 M Ohm input impedance; a 9 or 10 Meg. Ohm resister in series with the positive lead tip will raise the total input impedance and the max. allowed voltage 10 or 11 times (this is what a "X10" scope probe does, many have little slide switches for this right on the probe). You would just have to remember your measurements would be correspondingly ten or 11 times higher that what you read on the screen; and accuracy would now correspond to the quality of the resistor.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on June 28, 2008, 01:19:44 PM
Hi All,

I have fully replicated the effect that Luc describes and shows. It is truly astounding! With no water and a dry spark plug you get normal cap discharges and nothing special. Spray a bit of water and it is like fire crackers going off! The water will continue to explode when fired repetitively until it has all gone from within the spark plug. This can take a minute or two at a 1 second repitition rate. The more fine the water and spray, the more powerfull an explosion and it is undoubtedly an extreme fuel based explosion which in this case, the fuel is water. Please see my video where I have tried to capture the explosions with angle shots but my digital camera does not do justice in representing the true power of the explosive ignitions of the water. This is very real stuff indeed folks!

http://www.youtube.com/m1a9r9s9

I am attaching a circuit diagram of my test setup and some pictures to this post. Regarding the circuit, the most important part of the discharge side is the need for a high current high voltage diode. I have simply used 16 x 1N5404 in series. They are 4 amp diodes. My oscillator is a basic radiant oscillator that I released years ago and is a very good and simple radiant energy oscillator. As far as RE being at work here, we all need to do much more experimentation to prove it is required as opposed to convention energy. I do know that my simple circuit uses 1-1.5 amps input at 12 volts and this energy input can be brought down significantly with more efficient circuit design.

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: pese on June 28, 2008, 01:35:30 PM
Hi All,

I have fully replicated the effect that Luc describes and shows. It is truly astounding! With no water and a dry spark plug you get normal cap discharges and nothing special. Spray a bit of water and it is like fire crackers going off! The water will continue to explode when fired repetitively until it has all gone from within the spark plug. This can take a minute or two at a 1 second repitition rate. The more fine the water and spray, the more powerfull an explosion and it is undoubtedly an extreme fuel based explosion which in this case, the fuel is water. Please see my video where I have tried to capture the explosions with angle shots but my digital camera does not do justice in representing the true power of the explosive ignitions of the water. This is very real stuff indeed folks!

http://www.youtube.com/m1a9r9s9


I am attaching a circuit diagram of my test setup and some pictures to this post. Regarding the circuit, the most important part of the discharge side is the need for a high current high voltage diode. I have simply used 16 x 1N5404 in series. They are 4 amp diodes. My oscillator is a basic radiant oscillator that I released years ago and is a very good and simple radiant energy oscillator. As far as RE being at work here, we all need to do much more experimentation to prove it is required as opposed to convention energy. I do know that my simple circuit uses 1-1.5 amps input at 12 volts and this energy input can be brought down significantly with more efficient circuit design.

Regards,

Ossie



If avaiable use Faster Diodes than 1N5400 series.
Use AVALANCHE diode to protect against hi voltages peak.
so i tpmt need 16 diodes.
with faster diodes (switching time) you have also more efficientce in output voltages -

Gustav Pese
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Dread on June 28, 2008, 02:14:54 PM
Gotoluc & Callanan,

You might want to think about replacing the water sprayer with steam from an electric kettle, this would simulate heated vapour in ICE (pre-ignition) also, if you could run the steam through a strong EM field prior to igniting it, the effects might be worth the effort.
BTW. I believe S1R's surge issues are nothing more than inconsistent water metering.

Rgds. to all.   
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alan on June 28, 2008, 02:37:16 PM
I think you mean through an E only field, like Meyer said?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: epwpixieq-1 on June 28, 2008, 03:09:41 PM
Hi Luc,

thanks for the wonderful research !!!!

@ALL who are able to replicate

I have what appears to be a stupid  idea, that may show something ( or may not ).
What if you spray gasoline, with the same sprayer, instead of watter. Hopefully it will not explode in the same way as watter. But with the same initial conditions, at least, it may show what is the energy content of watter compared with gasoline.

Please ignore this posting if you find that it diverges the topic.

Keep the wonderful research guys !!!

sas
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: wattsup on June 28, 2008, 04:00:49 PM
@gotoluc

Good one.

You might like this post.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3972.msg81291.html#msg81291

General Ignition coil info;
http://www.sentex.net/~mwandel/cannon/sparky.html

I'm wondering if a spark plug ignition coil like you are doing produces flyback. Maybe try sending a wire from the ignition coil positive to the battery positive but through a diode. See if the battery power goes up while producing the sparks or if the sparks are no longer produced. lol

On the other hand, is this not possible with just straight wall socket AC power rectified then pulsed as you are doing. Meaning, do you really need the battery and the inverter to make the spark system work.

The other question would be what is the point of this. Do you think an engine will be able to use such high sparking. Will the engine timing limitations be in conflict with the timing limitations of such a spark system. Can this possibly produce hydrogen?

Last question. What are you going to call it. lol

I will have to try this when time permits from so many other projects.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hartiberlin on June 28, 2008, 04:36:06 PM
He is using steam with it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bMZ_pD-Jug

Looks great !

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on June 28, 2008, 04:42:04 PM
hartiberlin: Nice work!!  ;D


Has anyone tried luc's system on a plug in a chamber under pressure?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: exxcomm0n on June 28, 2008, 04:50:41 PM
<snip>

I'm wondering if a spark plug ignition coil like you are doing produces flyback. Maybe try sending a wire from the ignition coil positive to the battery positive but through a diode. See if the battery power goes up while producing the sparks or if the sparks are no longer produced. lol

<snip>
The other question would be what is the point of this. Do you think an engine will be able to use such high sparking. Will the engine timing limitations be in conflict with the timing limitations of such a spark system. Can this possibly produce hydrogen?

<snip>

I was wondering about this too (engine timing/HHO sparkplug fire), but then realized that the timing for HHO spark could be a completely separate unit with solid state timer.

_IF_ that would work, the weak link in automotive electrical system will be the threat of burning up the alternator from too much current draw, rather than engine timing.

Hopefully engine timing will need to be adjusted for the quicker burn of hydrogen vs. petroleum gasoline only, and not running dual spark off the ignition (could fry points/ignition computer).

If you're interested in the HHO output of the spark, look up YouTube channel "crob227" as he's been researching this type of production for a while, but using wire/screw spark gap.

I've wanted to add a coil for HV output for HHO production to see how it would effect output.

Thanks for beating me to it! ;)

Now I'm just wondering how much bigger the alternator would have to be to handle the dual load of engine spark, and HHO spark...........
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hartiberlin on June 28, 2008, 04:54:13 PM
Hi Luc and Ossi,
did you remove the internal resistor from the sparkplug first
before doing your experiments ?

See:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reYRkG39XHw

Great replication Ossi !

Do you think you can still get the required input power down ?

It would be interesting to know, if also only alone with the
high voltage low current discharge the water could be blown up like
this maybe via a bigger charged capacitor ?

Also, why is the spark blown out ?

As Ossi has real high DC power at his cap, the spark should be able
to burn after the firing of the hv coil ?

Or is the explosion of te water itsself blowing out the water ?
In the video with the 24 x 9 Volts batteries the spark did continue to
burn when ignited, so where is the difference in this water firing ?

Luc and Ossi,
do you think the spark explosion is big enough
to propell a cylinder, so a motor could be done running
on this water explosion ?

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: provelless on June 28, 2008, 04:57:52 PM
Quote
I have what appears to be a stupid  idea, that may show something ( or may not ).
What if you spray gasoline, with the same sprayer, instead of watter

 I had wondered this also. I think we've all have  had a spark plug out of a small engine at some time or another that has had gas on it while we were checking for spark. With a standard ignition system the spark isn't much dry or wet with gas. That said the spark/plasma their getting with water is much more intense than what is currently running in our small engines now using gas. The only question in my mind is will the explosion/expansion of water be the same as gas in a compressed chamber. If it's less I would think firing it closer to TDC would solve this.
                     I have several small engines, 400watt inverter and a microwave on its way, will the microwave have all the electronic parts I need or do I need to go the a parts store? I hope to get something fired up by Sunday!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hartiberlin on June 28, 2008, 05:04:14 PM
How to get the resistor out of the sparkplug:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-J2AHNZUZD0

Can somebody please measure what the Ohm value of this resistor is ?
Is it in the 1 to 10  Ohm range or KOhms ?

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 28, 2008, 05:06:26 PM
Video of a sparkplug plasma ball using only 9 volt batteries! Pure DC!
Wonder if hooking up a capacitor and/or inverter would increase the intensity?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iNCzhP7754&NR=1
Hi yaz, thanks for looking and bringing us this excellent video demo. Our circuit can do the same thing ;) all you do is short the plug tip like he does in the video (for a microsecond) and watch the flame go and also watch your plug get ruined ;D.  One might want to increase the gap to as large as you can. Once the RE Plasma Flame is started, I was able to have as much as a 1/2 inch gap. See the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhXPEHM7Cv4

Great.. The only problem being that this would be harder for people in the US to get one of these 230VAC inverters so I was thinking getting two 110VAC from WallyWorld and a couple of bridge rectifiers from RadioShaft would be easier. I think getting high voltage caps might be easy as a lot of computer power supplies have high voltage caps in them so a couple of scavanged dead computer power supplies could be the ticket for cheaper replication.
Hi hydrocontrol, we can look on ebay of India or other contries and get them there ;) Yes, Everyone reuse parts, we are throwing out so many good components every day I find computer monitors, power supplies, microwave ovens and the list goes on.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 28, 2008, 05:15:28 PM
If the diagram is correct I presume the 1n4007 would be damaged by now. Can you please confirm if the 4007 is used between the coil and the plug and the microwave between the full wave and the plug. Could they be the other way around?

If the diagram is correct please confirm if the 4007 is still intact.
Hi willitwork, thanks for looking. I have already confirmed that it is still intact, some posts up. Please read this post: http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.msg108536.html#msg108536

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hartiberlin on June 28, 2008, 05:19:53 PM
Hi Luc and Ossi,
maybe you can try if the sparkplug electrode materials really have much
influence of the reaction and also the used area of it.

Maybe you can just try to use a bigger metal area, so
just use 2 iron or copper plates or graphite plates and
see, if you bring them close enough and have them wet,
if the whole area will explode or only there, where the spark jumps ?

So maybe if you have at least 1 x 1 inch area of 2 wet plates,
will the whole water on all the area explode or
only the water being directly inside the sparking area ?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 28, 2008, 05:32:37 PM
Hi All,

I have fully replicated the effect that Luc describes and shows. It is truly astounding! With no water and a dry spark plug you get normal cap discharges and nothing special. Spray a bit of water and it is like fire crackers going off! The water will continue to explode when fired repetitively until it has all gone from within the spark plug. This can take a minute or two at a 1 second repitition rate. The more fine the water and spray, the more powerfull an explosion and it is undoubtedly an extreme fuel based explosion which in this case, the fuel is water. Please see my video where I have tried to capture the explosions with angle shots but my digital camera does not do justice in representing the true power of the explosive ignitions of the water. This is very real stuff indeed folks!

http://www.youtube.com/m1a9r9s9

I am attaching a circuit diagram of my test setup and some pictures to this post. Regarding the circuit, the most important part of the discharge side is the need for a high current high voltage diode. I have simply used 16 x 1N5404 in series. They are 4 amp diodes. My oscillator is a basic radiant oscillator that I released years ago and is a very good and simple radiant energy oscillator. As far as RE being at work here, we all need to do much more experimentation to prove it is required as opposed to convention energy. I do know that my simple circuit uses 1-1.5 amps input at 12 volts and this energy input can be brought down significantly with more efficient circuit design.

Regards,

Ossie
Hi Ossie,  ;D ;D ;D Excellent work ;) I am very happy.
I don't know if anyone here would have ideas how to capture a photo of the orange red glow that is going on when the water spray is applied to the plug when it fires?

It would be nice to post a picture of that since the video camera does not pick it up.

Luc

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hartiberlin on June 28, 2008, 05:57:07 PM
Hi Ossie,  ;D ;D ;D Excellent work ;) I am very happy.
I don't know if anyone here would have ideas how to capture a photo of the orange red glow that is going on when the water spray is applied to the plug when it fires?

It would be nice to post a picture of that since the video camera does not pick it up.

Luc



Hi Luc,
put a bit of Strontium Nitrate into the water,
then it surely will glow red ! ;)

I used this when I still designed my own fireworks... ;)

By the way,  one could also try to use this water explosion for a MHD
generator.
see:
(http://media-2.web.britannica.com/eb-media/36/336-004-08BF8623.gif)

and

http://elgersmad.homestead.com/files/mhd/mhd.html

So try to put near the spark gap a magnet and capture electrodes 90 degrees
to your sparkplug electrodes and you will capture some negative electrons and
positive ions, which will charge up your capture electrodes.

Would be interesting to see the captured electric pulse on these electrodes.
Maybe this way we could reconvert the exploding water into electricity
and the efficiency might be higher than in a fuel cell ?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 28, 2008, 06:00:17 PM
If avaiable use Faster Diodes than 1N5400 series.
Use AVALANCHE diode to protect against hi voltages peak.
so i tpmt need 16 diodes.
with faster diodes (switching time) you have also more efficientce in output voltages -

Gustav Pese
Hi pese, thanks for looking at this topic and offering your advice to help ;D

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 28, 2008, 06:05:06 PM
Gotoluc & Callanan,

You might want to think about replacing the water sprayer with steam from an electric kettle, this would simulate heated vapour in ICE (pre-ignition) also, if you could run the steam through a strong EM field prior to igniting it, the effects might be worth the effort.
BTW. I believe S1R's surge issues are nothing more than inconsistent water metering.

Rgds. to all.   
Hi Dread, thanks for coming to this topic, a good suggestion also to see if steam has the same effect or does it get better or worse. A definite simple test to do today.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hartiberlin on June 28, 2008, 06:36:57 PM
Hi Luc,
I attached the drawing from user librame to your
first posting, so new readers will come faster to the clues.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 28, 2008, 07:00:24 PM
I'm wondering if a spark plug ignition coil like you are doing produces flyback. Maybe try sending a wire from the ignition coil positive to the battery positive but through a diode. See if the battery power goes up while producing the sparks or if the sparks are no longer produced. lol

On the other hand, is this not possible with just straight wall socket AC power rectified then pulsed as you are doing. Meaning, do you really need the battery and the inverter to make the spark system work.

The other question would be what is the point of this. Do you think an engine will be able to use such high sparking. Will the engine timing limitations be in conflict with the timing limitations of such a spark system. Can this possibly produce hydrogen?
Hi wattsup, I'm happy to see you dropped in ;D  flyback is definitely something that I will be testing if you know my style. Did you read my posts from the beginning? did you see the RE Plasma Flame video I am getting from the inverter with a FWBR? I think that may have to do with the effect, so I think it may have to do with the non sine wave output of the inverter. The idea is to have a ICE running on water. Replicators and myself are already seeing an orange red flame (which cannot be captured on video) around the plug when it fires when sprayed with water, I think that would be Hydrogen.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: atlantex on June 28, 2008, 07:11:14 PM
I'm a little bit confused about the picture in post 1.

How is the neodyn magnet exactly connected?



atlantex
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Golden Mean on June 28, 2008, 07:13:38 PM
I feel like a bit of a dolt for asking this, but electronics is not a strong area of knowledge for me.

Could one of you Brilliant, Generous people please post a write-up of what is going on here and why this is so exciting in layman's terms? 
How is this different from a normal spark plug and why?  What advantages does this offer? Could this be easily adapted to current auto-tech?, Etc...

Additionally, since I am not an electronics person and don't have the time to learn all this to contribute to the testing of various configs, I am more than willing to offer my skills in animation, video production, web design and database development to contribute to bringing this to the masses.

Much love & peace to all.
Thanks.
Will
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alan on June 28, 2008, 07:38:45 PM
Another experimenter, with test results:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUBDX0-_ZZQ
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 28, 2008, 07:40:31 PM
Hi Luc and Ossi, did you remove the internal resistor from the sparkplug first before doing your experiments ?

See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reYRkG39XHw

Do you think you can still get the required input power down ?

It would be interesting to know, if also only alone with the high voltage low current discharge the water could be blown up like this maybe via a bigger charged capacitor ?

Also, why is the spark blown out ?

Or is the explosion of te water itsself blowing out the water ?

In the video with the 24 x 9 Volts batteries the spark did continue to burn when ignited, so where is the difference in this water firing ?

Luc and Ossi,
do you think the spark explosion is big enough to propell a cylinder, so a motor could be done running on this water explosion ?

Regards, Stefan.
Hi Stefan, yes internal resistor is removed, this is mentioned that it is and how to do it at the beginning of topic. That is a good video on how to do it.

I do believe some collection of the back EMF could be collected. I will be testing this later.

I do not believe that hi volts cap discharge will do this, since it would of been found by now.

It blows out yes. I think it would be the energy release.

The video I posted at my first post shows an even more impressive spark burn at 1/2" inch gap :o. I stopped it because the metal was starting to melt. The difference is with this circuit is the RE Plasma Flame will last only the time the HV spark is on to make the bridge for it, that is why I say if we want more power all we need to do is have the HV last longer. Are you all not getting it???

Once we do that I am sure it will make an ICE work on water.

He is also getting a nice flame:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bs-Uk511S_I

Regards, Stefan.
This was posted here before and I think it is off topic since he is using electrolyte in his water. It is just a show.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: The Observer on June 28, 2008, 07:45:45 PM
Hello Luc and the Rest,

Thankyou Luc for your post, video, enthusiasm and willingness to share with others.

I will admit, I am not sure what is meant by radiant energy, perhaps a short explanation of it here would be appropriate.

However, when I look at the diagram created by Libra, I can't help but see an IRON CORE.
  This 'Iron Core' and what it does is the Topic of a thread I started about MAGNETIC PERMEABILITY.
     In fact, it's fair to say I am obsessed with this subject.

     http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,4831.0.html

However, here is short explanation of what I am so concerned about when it comes to Magnetic Permeability.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A Coil
         with a current
                             produces a magnetic field.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Same Coil with a Core (Ferromagnetic, Low Coercivity)
                                                                               with the SAME Current
                                                                                                                 produces a magnetic field

                                      1000's if not 1,000,000 times greater !!
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------         

Where does this energy come from? has definitely been a question on my mind.
Here are some answers and important points pertaining to the characteristics of Ferromagnetic Matierials.

      1. Magnetic Energy comes from the limitless energy of unpaired electrons spinning in the atoms of Ferromagnetic Materials.

      2. Without the presence of an external field, domains form that are a balance between what compasses would do when too close (on a the macro scale)
          And, ANISOTROPIC ENERGY, the Quantum Energy that makes dipoles align when they 'shouldn't'  (on the micro scale)   

          These balance out to get the maze like domains of ferromagnetic materials NOT in the presence of a Magnetic Field.
     
          Because the maze points 'any which way but loose', the external Magnetic NET TOTAL of the Domains/Atom Dipoles ADDS up to ZERO.
                                         
                                                                                                                       If you can't understand this, you won't be able to comprehend the rest.
                                     
                                                                                                              That is, a bunch of energy ADDS up to ZERO when observed from the outside.

      3. When an external magnetic field is applied, the aligned domains get bigger as a result of neighboring dipoles joining the 'happening' alignment.
          This takes little or no 'extra' energy as the ANISOTROPIC energy is very willing to help out in this matter.
 
          Then, the Sum of the domains gets to be Something
 
                                                                                          that can be observed on the outside.

This is where
   
                       an amplification of 5,000 or more

                                                                            is added to the coil's minuscule magnetic field.


So, I hope you can see why I think it is important to understand what is going on when introducing a core to coil in a setup.

In other words, I would bet dollars to donuts that this works because of the core.
                                                                                                                    No core, no 'radiant' energy.

Please, keep up the good work.
  Perhaps this info helps your understanding of the device you have created.

May Sun Shine on your Backdoor Someday,

                                                                 The Observer




                                                                                   


                                     

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 28, 2008, 08:00:31 PM
I feel like a bit of a dolt for asking this, but electronics is not a strong area of knowledge for me.

Could one of you Brilliant, Generous people please post a write-up of what is going on here and why this is so exciting in layman's terms? 
How is this different from a normal spark plug and why?  What advantages does this offer? Could this be easily adapted to current auto-tech?, Etc...

Additionally, since I am not an electronics person and don't have the time to learn all this to contribute to the testing of various configs, I am more than willing to offer my skills in animation, video production, web design and database development to contribute to bringing this to the masses.

Much love & peace to all.
Thanks.
Will
Hi Will, thanks for looking at this topic and speaking your truth. You have an excellent point and I do also see it the way you do. I am asking for help to do up a single page document that could be easier to understand but that can take some time. This topic is only 2 days old so it will get there with the Grace of God's will.

The idea here is to use water as a fuel for an automobile engine and limitless applications.

I do appreciate your offer in your skilled area and my hopes are up that we can get to that point. Please keep an eye on this topics first post since we will be posting the most up to date schematic and hopefully a simple documentation there.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: wattsup on June 28, 2008, 08:05:38 PM
Spark plug model number should also play into this. The higher the number, the higher the spark/heat ratio. A J19 will spark hotter then a J7.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 28, 2008, 08:11:23 PM
Hi there The Observer,

Thanks for looking at this topic. The word RE think is just someting we have made up. We are all talking about the same thing just in different words or ways.
Thanks for posting the information. Hopefully one day soon we will have a common language so that we can have a conversation about this. However we are just starting to learn it over again and it will take some time

Thanks for posting.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hartiberlin on June 28, 2008, 09:36:07 PM
Hi Luc,
I removed the magnet in the picture from librame at the cap to your
directions at the first post of this thread.

So no magnet at the switch.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bigblue on June 28, 2008, 10:08:22 PM
Hey guys,

                 Just new to the site and it seems very exciting. It seems that you are wanting to (by viewing the video of the 18 hp lawn mower engine on the cinderblock running on water) run an engine on water internally and not externally with a Hydrogen Gen. , feeding water directly into the combustion chamber and changing it there, by utilizing a plasma spark? I believe that is a brilliant idea, I even printed off the electrical diagram with the inverter and 12volt coil, you all posted in the last few days. I came across the FIRESTORM spark plug invention on the web and it sure looks like what we need for this application, it is a plasma emitting spark plug.....................God Bless ................J
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nightlife on June 28, 2008, 10:44:06 PM
Hi Luc, I believe the direct power that you initially supplied to the plug actually energizes the water that is spayed on the plug. The water can be energized before being introduced to the plug.

http://www.waterfuelcell.org/WFCprojects/Joe%20Cell/Charging%20Water.wmv

http://www.waterfuelcell.org/WFCprojects/Joe%20Cell/Shock%20Group.wmv

If this is true, it would be better to have the water pre-energized before introducing it to the plug,




Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Mark69 on June 28, 2008, 10:56:48 PM
Hello all,  just trying to follow what is happening...  Has anyone tried injecting steam into an ICE with this type of spark plug in the motor?  I was thinking injecting the steam in the air stream, not the sparkplug, or perhaps with this sparkplug.  I dont think you will have a problem with compressing the steam???

Mark
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: DrStiffler on June 28, 2008, 10:58:34 PM
Hi Luc, I believe the direct power that you initially supplied to the plug actually energizes the water that is spayed on the plug. The water can be energized before being introduced to the plug.

http://www.waterfuelcell.org/WFCprojects/Joe%20Cell/Charging%20Water.wmv

http://www.waterfuelcell.org/WFCprojects/Joe%20Cell/Shock%20Group.wmv

If this is true, it would be better to have the water pre-energized before introducing it to the plug,





@nightlife
Being able to place a charge in water as the videos you listed show, has "Nothing" to do with the "Energy Capacity" of the water. It is simple to get water to hold a charge, but it does not increase the energy available from it.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nightlife on June 28, 2008, 11:07:13 PM
DrStiffler,
Quote
Being able to place a charge in water as the videos you listed show, has "Nothing" to do with the "Energy Capacity" of the water. It is simple to get water to hold a charge, but it does not increase the energy available from it.


 That may be true but the pre-energized water may be pre-conditioned for the effect to take place. Based on what Luc's experiment has proven, it must be energized before it can be ignited.

 Maybe energizing the water gets the molecules moving and that maybe why it can then and only then be ignited.

 This is the only thing I can think of as far as why it has to have a initially power introduced first.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: eastcoastwilly on June 28, 2008, 11:38:58 PM
Hi Luc,

Great work from you and great input from others. Further to nightlife's suggestion of energizing water I wonder what effect using freshly Ozonated water would have on the effect. Many people are mis-informed about ozone, it is VERY, reactive to most inorganic materials, however Ozone is one of natures wonders for purging the planet from toxins. I don't know if a cheap (O3) water ozonator would saturate enough O3 into the water to make a difference but It might be interesting :)

Good luck and keep up the great work folks

Will
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: geovel56 on June 28, 2008, 11:48:45 PM
Hi Luc and OTHERS,

I guess no forum is immune to off topic posts.  I was truly hoping things would be different here with better moderating of the posts.  Bottom line:  Although HHO and electrolysis is a great concept, and just one workable solution to eliminating the use of fossil fuels, this thread was supposed to ONLY be for determining/developing/replicating and maybe enhancing the circuit used in S1R's project.

TO EVERYONE:
The action between water vapor and a plasma arc IS NOT instantaneous disassociation of water into its components, hydrolysis of any kind and really NOT the topic of this thread!

It is very similar to Flash Steam, if not flash steam itself!  It is very similar to Lightening and Thunder.  Lightening and Thunder is the discharge of high energy which pushes the air molecules between the water vapor molecules in the atmosphere at supersonic speeds.  Thunder is essentially a sonic boom which we not only hear, but also FEEL its concussion.

This is not a chemical - combustion reaction... it is a physical - concussion reaction with enough concussive force to push a piston down.

Now, can we please get back to developing the best circuit which Luc started, and work together to focus on this ALONE.  There are a million other forums out there for awesome alternative energy systems, but extraneous to this particular thread.

As S1R's videos already showed, he IS running the Briggs & Straton engine on water ALONE.  We just don't know what components are in the silver painted "I Can't Believe It's Not Butter" container, which is what Luc felt he had a handle on, and started this thread.

PLEASE!  Let's work together and help each other moving forward with what Luc started and not deviate from the task at hand... to recreate the circuit in the "mystery container."  The rest of the project is already known.

Respectfully,
Geo
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: NerzhDishual on June 29, 2008, 12:13:17 AM

Hi witty Guys,

Sounds like this bl' oil barrel price is getting to high. This have a gift for
increasing the creativity and the motivations of some free and sharp minds over here. ;D

Thanks a lot for all your informations and sharing...

@Harti_Berlin:
Thanks for the vid.

How to get the resistor out of the sparkplug:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-J2AHNZUZD0

Can somebody please measure what the Ohm value of this resistor is ?
Is it in the 1 to 10  Ohm range or KOhms ?

In France the internal resistance of the Spark-Plug is 5000 ohms (5K).
I have some old car sparks plugs and also a old small motor SP that shows zero resistance!
According to the fact that the spark plug 'leads' have also some resistance, (officially for avoiding
RF interferences, I guess) .
This should be done to increase the mileage.  Unless it were the contrary. :'(

Best
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: greendoor on June 29, 2008, 01:29:10 AM
... I have what appears to be a stupid  idea ...What if you spray gasoline, with the same sprayer ...?

This is indeed a stupid idea.

NEVER DO THIS!!!  You can blow up the room and kill yourself very quickly.  Hopefully nobody has tried this - otherwise their silence on the results would be due to their instant demise, or hospitalisation with 3rd degree burns ...

I undestand what you are trying to prove - but be safe, whatever you do.

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: yaz on June 29, 2008, 01:41:21 AM
Stumbled upon a file on a few secrets on S1R's plasma setup. The original document has diagrams but here's a little snip of the document.

The SECRET OF Joe Cells and S1r?s Watercar

Note that Tesla?s BALL LIGHTNING was created by TWO POSITIVE ANODE DISCHARGES FROM TWO COILS IN HARMONIC RESONENCE WITH ONE COIL HAVING A HIGHER VOLTAGE THAN THE OTHER.

That is fundamentally what EV Gray did, what Papp did and what S1r did.  Simply, you create a high voltage and a low voltage spark gap (plug/positive anodes) and the discharge will form a type of plasma ball in air.  Do this intentionally in a cylinder that is grounded and you get a BIG BANG that is contained in a small area that is sufficient to drive a piston down.   

Graneau exploded water just using a single HV capacitance discharge, but this approach is not practical in an engine as it created a concentrated unidirectional explosion but was difficult to recharge and reload.  Tesla?s dual coil simplicity, however, is easily replicated and can be fired at whatever frequency (RPM) required.

S1r?s circuit is very similar to Tesla?s in that he used his car?s normal HV ignition coil and a low voltage (LV) 110v inverter rectified (with high amps) and fired these together through a single wire to the spark plugs.  Many people were confused by S1r?s relays, but these are just additional coils and a way to merge the POSITIVE HV and LV sources together AT A SINGLE ANODE.  The same thing could be accomplished using a 2 ANODE PLUG in each cylinder (but nobody makes those YET.)

Has anyone tried to adjust the high voltage frequency to resonate with the inverter?


The actual document is here.
http://www.thejoecell.com/files/The_Tesla_Plasma_Engine.doc

If you can't see the document due to a graphics filter problem (like I had) here's a link to a viewer.
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyId=95E24C87-8732-48D5-8689-AB826E7B8FDF&displaylang=en

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: greendoor on June 29, 2008, 01:55:58 AM
If i'm understanding this correctly -  it's the sharp square wave of a cheap inverter that is creating the anomolous radiant energy spark.  So so don't buy a sine or modified sine inverter - get the cheap square wave ones.  If speed of diodes is important, then the speed of the diodes in the bridge rectifier will be important.  And don't try to parallel them together, as the pulses from both inverters may not be in phase, so there are complications.  You could just end up with non-pulsed DC most of the time.

Watch out for disinformation from MIB in this thread.  (for all you know, I could be a MIB - there is little point me trying to reassure you that i'm just a geniune free energy tinkerer - so use your brains to see what is going on here).

I like the steam kettle idea for initial proof of concept testing.

I like the multiple spark approach.  How about two seperate sparks - one high voltage low current to ionise the spark gap, and then hit it with lower voltage but higher current immediately afterwards.

How about connecting 12V directly from the battery to the spark plugs all the time with high current leads.  They would normally never conduct anything - until the spark happened ... would that provide more grunt to the detonation?  I understand hho cells only require 2V, and anything more is wasteful - perhaps (once the plasma spark has been formed) low voltage is better?

The catch to this idea is that we don't want to create a path so that multiple cylinders fire at once.  Should work with a single cylinder engine - might require diodes or switching for multi cylinders?

I like the idea of using the existing ignition circuit to provide the timed 12V.  How about a 555 running at 200hz (whatever is optimal - is Bedini Tesla switch data trustworthy?) gating a MOSFET to charge the capacitor.  Maybe a single-shot 555 to operate some MOSFETs configured as the SPDT gate to send the capicitor charge to the distributor.  (The time delay required for charging the capicitor would need to be deducted from the ignition timing - ie. we would need to advance the timing.  I expect the timing will have to be manually adjusted for the new fuel anyway).

I hope these thoughts help.  Ignore them otherwise - I really want to see this thing suceed.

EDIT Perhaps a single cylinder engine that can be manually set to TDC by hand would be a good start.  If we could get a single power stoke from a single spark, we would be onto something.  The trick would be to get the compressed air to hold enough water - maybe steam kettle into the inlet manifold, and prime it with a single turn by hand before ignition. 

I think it's important to get some quick proof of concept results to encourage a breakthrough that can't be suppressed.







Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on June 29, 2008, 02:11:05 AM
Hi Stephan,

>Hi Luc and Ossi,
did you remove the internal resistor from the sparkplug first
before doing your experiments ?

- My spark plug does not have any resistor. It measures 0 ohms.

> Do you think you can still get the required input power down ?

- Most definately. But I would have never believed I could get water to explode on demand even with the 1-1.5 amp at 12 volts I am using. Seeing and hearing is believing guys. This is very real indeed and practically very simple to replicate once you understand the key requirements.

> It would be interesting to know, if also only alone with the
high voltage low current discharge the water could be blown up like
this maybe via a bigger charged capacitor ?

- The goal must be to come up with the best circuit for the least energy input. At this stage I don't know if this will mean it will be a capacitive discharge or power on demand circuit. I think that maybe a power on demand circuit with DC pulses at the correct frequency, pulse width and voltage may result in the least energy input. Plenty of lab work to do for all of us but because this is the first alternative energy system that I now believe is truly practical for the home experimenter to build and use, we need to stop all the speculation and guessing and theory and simply analyse technically what has been achieved practically as the overall system and process is very simple. So simple that if you are from a technical or scientific background, you would never beilieve it...

> Also, why is the spark blown out ?

- Simply because it is a very violent explosiong of the water. It is a true and real explosion indeed!!! What you are seeing that is poorly captured by the video is the extremly fast expanding gases of a violent explosion that also creates a loud bang like a fire cracker! It does have a red colour to the gas that does not get captured by the camera as well. I used my digital still camera which does video but no sound. If I get time I will try and capture it on my digital handy cam with the sound and better quality. Just a pain to capture it to PC and convert then upload to youtube but it is important to show.

> As Ossi has real high DC power at his cap, the spark should be able
to burn after the firing of the hv coil ?

- No. Why? The process is simply this and why it can easily be adapted to any combustion engine with a standard ignition system. All you need is a DC voltage supply of a few hundred volts, even just 100 volts, sitting across the spark plug in parallel with the car's normal and standard ignition system. Put water through the fuel system instead of petrol. When the normal HV spark from the standard ignition system occurs, it will ionise the air-water mixture between the spark plug gap and provide a conductive path for the DC voltage supply to flow. When the DC supply flows through the ionised air-water mixture, it instantaneously dissassociates the H2O and ignites the dissassociated hydrogen and oxygen gases. This explosion causes a violent expansion of the gases which pushes the engines cylinders down and drives the motor action of the engine in sequence.

- So the water does NOT burn. It explodes instantaneously and will continue to explode for every ignition pulse as long as there is moisture in the gap. When the moisture is gone there is no explosion. But it does not take much moisture and it seems that even a very humid rainy day may have enough moisture in the air for some small but limited ignitions. I am sure the current air humidity percentage will effect the efficiency of the overall process. Heat and steam work very well but is not needed as an external input as the spark plug gets so hot it starts to heat the moisture in the gap on it's own in a very short time. Please understand that I agree that this is unbelievable but now I am doing this on the lab bench and it is very real and very simple.

> Or is the explosion of te water itsself blowing out the water ?

- Yes, exactly! The water itself explodes and is blowing out very voilently!

> In the video with the 24 x 9 Volts batteries the spark did continue to
burn when ignited, so where is the difference in this water firing ?

I don't know what is going on in that video but I don't think it really fit's in this very valuable thread. Luc well and truly needs a pat on the back.

> Luc and Ossi,
do you think the spark explosion is big enough
to propell a cylinder, so a motor could be done running
on this water explosion ?

- I have no doubt about it now. If you have read the pdf based on S1R9A9M9 work, I believe this can be done. He did it with little electronics knowledge and standard components and equipment. With just a little engineering, the whole process can be made so much more efficient and simple and applied to any combustion engine. The pdf can be found here.

http://waterpoweredcar.com/watercar.pdf

Regards,

Ossie
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 29, 2008, 02:19:44 AM
Hey guys,

Just new to the site and it seems very exciting. It seems that you are wanting to (by viewing the video of the 18 hp lawn mower engine on the cinderblock running on water) run an engine on water internally and not externally with a Hydrogen Gen. , feeding water directly into the combustion chamber and changing it there, by utilizing a plasma spark? I believe that is a brilliant idea, I even printed off the electrical diagram with the inverter and 12volt coil, you all posted in the last few days. I came across the FIRESTORM spark plug invention on the web and it sure looks like what we need for this application, it is a plasma emitting spark plug.....................God Bless ................J
Hi bigblue, welcome to this topic. Your understanding of what we would like to do is correct. However we are not the one who did the 18 hp engine video, the person who did the video is not sharing his circuit as you can see in his video the parts are in a metal tin. Here we share what we have and ideas of ways we can do this. We have a circuit that is giving positive results but as far as I know none of us have tried it in an engine yet. This circuit was just discovered about 3 days ago, so we are asking anyone who is interested to build it,  test it and share your findings and ideas to improve the circuit if at all possible.
Unfortunately for us the FIRESTORM spark plug was never manufactured. It seems to be a trend in our world :-[ we never get the good stuff. We all need to work together for things to change. This is what we are trying to do here.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 29, 2008, 02:27:46 AM
Hi Luc, I believe the direct power that you initially supplied to the plug actually energizes the water that is spayed on the plug. The water can be energized before being introduced to the plug.

http://www.waterfuelcell.org/WFCprojects/Joe%20Cell/Charging%20Water.wmv

http://www.waterfuelcell.org/WFCprojects/Joe%20Cell/Shock%20Group.wmv

If this is true, it would be better to have the water pre-energized before introducing it to the plug,
Hi nightlife, that is very interesting...can you find out the process involve in charging the water?

Thanks for sharing.

Luc

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 29, 2008, 02:36:16 AM
@nightlife
Being able to place a charge in water as the videos you listed show, has "Nothing" to do with the "Energy Capacity" of the water. It is simple to get water to hold a charge, but it does not increase the energy available from it.

Hi DrStiffler, thanks for dropping in. That is a good point also.

I would be interested in your opinion of this circuit and what has been shared to date.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 29, 2008, 02:39:23 AM
I'm a little bit confused about the picture in post 1.

How is the neodyn magnet exactly connected?
atlantex
Hi atlantex, thanks for posting your concern. The Neo magnet is not needed and has now been removed.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 29, 2008, 02:45:49 AM
Hi Luc,

Great work from you and great input from others. Further to nightlife's suggestion of energizing water I wonder what effect using freshly Ozonated water would have on the effect. Many people are mis-informed about ozone, it is VERY, reactive to most inorganic materials, however Ozone is one of natures wonders for purging the planet from toxins. I don't know if a cheap (O3) water ozonator would saturate enough O3 into the water to make a difference but It might be interesting :)

Good luck and keep up the great work folks

Will
Hi eastcoastwilly, thanks for looking at this topic and sharing your thought. I would think your idea deserve to be tested, why not :D
I'll write it on my things to test list. Thanks for sharing.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 29, 2008, 03:10:53 AM
Hi Luc and OTHERS,

I guess no forum is immune to off topic posts.  I was truly hoping things would be different here with better moderating of the posts.  Bottom line:  Although HHO and electrolysis is a great concept, and just one workable solution to eliminating the use of fossil fuels, this thread was supposed to ONLY be for determining/developing/replicating and maybe enhancing the circuit used in S1R's project.

TO EVERYONE:
The action between water vapor and a plasma arc IS NOT instantaneous disassociation of water into its components, hydrolysis of any kind and really NOT the topic of this thread!

It is very similar to Flash Steam, if not flash steam itself!  It is very similar to Lightening and Thunder.  Lightening and Thunder is the discharge of high energy which pushes the air molecules between the water vapor molecules in the atmosphere at supersonic speeds.  Thunder is essentially a sonic boom which we not only hear, but also FEEL its concussion.

This is not a chemical - combustion reaction... it is a physical - concussion reaction with enough concussive force to push a piston down.

Now, can we please get back to developing the best circuit which Luc started, and work together to focus on this ALONE.  There are a million other forums out there for awesome alternative energy systems, but extraneous to this particular thread.

As S1R's videos already showed, he IS running the Briggs & Straton engine on water ALONE.  We just don't know what components are in the silver painted "I Can't Believe It's Not Butter" container, which is what Luc felt he had a handle on, and started this thread.

PLEASE!  Let's work together and help each other moving forward with what Luc started and not deviate from the task at hand... to recreate the circuit in the "mystery container."  The rest of the project is already known.

Respectfully,
Geo
Hi Geo, you have a good understanding and many good points, is that really a "I Can't Believe It's Not Butter" container ;D

Let us not loose focused here ;)

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 29, 2008, 03:24:25 AM
Hi Stephan,

>Hi Luc and Ossi,
did you remove the internal resistor from the sparkplug first
before doing your experiments ?

- My spark plug does not have any resistor. It measures 0 ohms.

> Do you think you can still get the required input power down ?

- Most definately. But I would have never believed I could get water to explode on demand even with the 1-1.5 amp at 12 volts I am using. Seeing and hearing is believing guys. This is very real indeed and practically very simple to replicate once you understand the key requirements.

> It would be interesting to know, if also only alone with the
high voltage low current discharge the water could be blown up like
this maybe via a bigger charged capacitor ?

- The goal must be to come up with the best circuit for the least energy input. At this stage I don't know if this will mean it will be a capacitive discharge or power on demand circuit. I think that maybe a power on demand circuit with DC pulses at the correct frequency, pulse width and voltage may result in the least energy input. Plenty of lab work to do for all of us but because this is the first alternative energy system that I now believe is truly practical for the home experimenter to build and use, we need to stop all the speculation and guessing and theory and simply analyse technically what has been achieved practically as the overall system and process is very simple. So simple that if you are from a technical or scientific background, you would never beilieve it...

> Also, why is the spark blown out ?

- Simply because it is a very violent explosiong of the water. It is a true and real explosion indeed!!! What you are seeing that is poorly captured by the video is the extremly fast expanding gases of a violent explosion that also creates a loud bang like a fire cracker! It does have a red colour to the gas that does not get captured by the camera as well. I used my digital still camera which does video but no sound. If I get time I will try and capture it on my digital handy cam with the sound and better quality. Just a pain to capture it to PC and convert then upload to youtube but it is important to show.

> As Ossi has real high DC power at his cap, the spark should be able
to burn after the firing of the hv coil ?

- No. Why? The process is simply this and why it can easily be adapted to any combustion engine with a standard ignition system. All you need is a DC voltage supply of a few hundred volts, even just 100 volts, sitting across the spark plug in parallel with the car's normal and standard ignition system. Put water through the fuel system instead of petrol. When the normal HV spark from the standard ignition system occurs, it will ionise the air-water mixture between the spark plug gap and provide a conductive path for the DC voltage supply to flow. When the DC supply flows through the ionised air-water mixture, it instantaneously dissassociates the H2O and ignites the dissassociated hydrogen and oxygen gases. This explosion causes a violent expansion of the gases which pushes the engines cylinders down and drives the motor action of the engine in sequence.

- So the water does NOT burn. It explodes instantaneously and will continue to explode for every ignition pulse as long as there is moisture in the gap. When the moisture is gone there is no explosion. But it does not take much moisture and it seems that even a very humid rainy day may have enough moisture in the air for some small but limited ignitions. I am sure the current air humidity percentage will effect the efficiency of the overall process. Heat and steam work very well but is not needed as an external input as the spark plug gets so hot it starts to heat the moisture in the gap on it's own in a very short time. Please understand that I agree that this is unbelievable but now I am doing this on the lab bench and it is very real and very simple.

> Or is the explosion of te water itsself blowing out the water ?

- Yes, exactly! The water itself explodes and is blowing out very voilently!

> In the video with the 24 x 9 Volts batteries the spark did continue to
burn when ignited, so where is the difference in this water firing ?

I don't know what is going on in that video but I don't think it really fit's in this very valuable thread. Luc well and truly needs a pat on the back.

> Luc and Ossi,
do you think the spark explosion is big enough
to propell a cylinder, so a motor could be done running
on this water explosion ?

- I have no doubt about it now. If you have read the pdf based on S1R9A9M9 work, I believe this can be done. He did it with little electronics knowledge and standard components and equipment. With just a little engineering, the whole process can be made so much more efficient and simple and applied to any combustion engine. The pdf can be found here.

http://waterpoweredcar.com/watercar.pdf

Regards,

Ossie
WOW :D Ossie, you are my hero. Thanks for the excellent written report and support. I knew it wasn't going to be an easy task to do but you are a God send to help this way.

Thank you thank you thank you, Amen

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Super God on June 29, 2008, 03:32:34 AM
I think we are very very close to getting to an all water ICE.  An idea I am tossing around right now I got from the waterfuel1978 group, use a transformer to combine signals and boost voltages.  Think about it, this could fit in that little tuna can and work very well!!!  Could it be this easy?  Why hasn't anyone found this out yet besides s1r and us?  Are we on the verge of a truly remarkable technology?  I THINK SO!!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 29, 2008, 03:36:56 AM
I think we are very very close to getting to an all water ICE.  An idea I am tossing around right now I got from the waterfuel1978 group, use a transformer to combine signals and boost voltages.  Think about it, this could fit in that little tuna can and work very well!!!  Could it be this easy?  Why hasn't anyone found this out yet besides s1r and us?  Are we on the verge of a truly remarkable technology?  I THINK SO!!
Hi Super God, glad you came by ;D

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hartiberlin on June 29, 2008, 04:05:11 AM
Hi,
here are the 2 videos from the Youtube user s1r9a9m9,
who got his motor
already to run on water and this special spark plug system:

http://www.youtube.com/user/s1r9a9m9


The question is,
how much power he needs to run it.
As Ossi can run his system on 12 to around 20 Watts
of electrical input power, I wonder how big the mechanical output power is.

Looks good so far ! ;)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nightlife on June 29, 2008, 04:21:31 AM
I have been studying s1r's video's which are provided as followed.

 Video 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tb3d_hf7R10

 Video 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBCl3OdM9Y4

 In the first video it shows his setup to be quite simple. It shows the coil wire going in to the container and then another lead going to the container coming from the inverter. I am assuming the wire coming from the inverter is a positive. There is only one wire coming out and it goes to the spark plug.

 The spark plug is shown having the one wire, coming from the container, attached to the spark plugs positive nipple and it has one wire attached to the negative base of the spark plug that is coming from the other wire of the inverter. I am assuming the wire attached to the spark plugs base is a negative from the inverter.
 
 It does show a third wire and it is coming from the positive nipple of the spark plug but after many replays, I find it to be short with the end bared but not attached to anything.

 After reviewing these videos many times, I believe there is only one component in the container and I believe it is some sort of a capacitor. I am not seeing anyway his setup can energize the water so that leads me to believe he has energized the water first. If you watch the beginning of the 2nd video closely, you will see him acting as if he is opening a "new" bottle of drinking water but if you look closely enough you will see that there is no way that bottle was new. It had been opened before and you can tell by the way he opens it. New bottles have a seal that has to be broke. Then if you notice, he is a little shy about taking the first drink. I believe that is because of the atheric affect that water gives off after being highly charged and it comes in to contact with other charges such as the ones our body's put off as seen in the next video.

http://www.waterfuelcell.org/WFCprojects/Joe%20Cell/Shock%20Group.wmv

 After seeing s1r's videos, there is a more simple way then what has been provided thus far. The component s1r has in the container is the key to being able to simply Luc?s circuitry but even that may not be necessary when using a high voltage coil like most all the new vehicles use.

 Charging water can be done by running a positive and negative lead from a battery into a body of water. I am not sure if that charges water enough but I will experiment with it Monday when I get to the shop.

I maybe wrong but I have yet to come up with a better theory to support what has been discovered.

 All in all, we must figure this out and keep it open source so that all can benefit from it.
 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: carbully on June 29, 2008, 05:25:22 AM
According to s1r's comment on the yahoogroup the third wire coming from the top of the spark plug is to kill the engine, shorting out the spark when grounded.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nightlife on June 29, 2008, 05:52:31 AM
Luc, please don't get upset if we discuss s1r's setup here because I feel it has a lot to do with this topic as well as what can be figured out about his setup can contribute to yours and this topic. The way yours setup is designed, it will take a extra timing sequence to energize the cap and I don?t see s1r?s set up having a second timing setup. This tells me that there must be a easier way and we should all study s1r?s setup to find out what it is.
 If you prefer, we can start a new thread and discuss his setup there. I just feel it would best to discuss them both here so that we can all stay on the same level.
 

carbully,
Quote
According to s1r's comment on the yahoogroup the third wire coming from the spark plug boot is to kill the engine, shorting out the spark.

 Do you have a link to the comment you speak of?  As for a third wire coming from the boot, I have yet to see a "boot" and there are only two wires attached to the nipple of the spark plug. The wire that comes from the nipple that is bared, may just be used to kill the motor. The only three wire configuration seen, are those attached to what ever is in the container.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: capacitor70 on June 29, 2008, 05:57:20 AM
What's the differance between http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3977.new.html#new , two differant subjects .  ::) ???

Why new subject ?

See This It is same, but more powerful

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjBkqNc0GrQ
 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: livingwaters08 on June 29, 2008, 06:20:20 AM
gotoluc,
  Thank You for being so generous in sharing all of the information to make this new source of energy available to everyone.
s1's post on waterfuel1978 recently spoke of 3 coils.  One primary and 2 secondaries.  Let' examine what he said.  Here is the post:


There are three windings on the coil, one main winding, one on each
side with deferent number of windings in each, the two windings on
each side are wound through the main winding , as 1 being a winding
and 2 being a winding and 0 being the main winding, it will look
like this 1-0-1_2-0-2. the windings are not touching each other but
they are wound through the main (0) winding, this replaces the double
coil set in the relay system. I will post the number of turns on each
winding as soon as I have all the info put together. None of the
windings have the same number of turns so the harmonics deffer when
current passes through them. This also is helping to block the 110v
from the 12v. This coil does not replace the HV coil on the vehicle.

S1R.


Maybe seeing this here will help some of you with sharp electronic skills to decipher what s1 is describing.

It shall not be long before many, many people will be converting their cars over to run on WATER! ;D

Is there a complete circuit diagram and a component list for all of us to view?

HATS OFF TO YOU GOTOLUC!!!

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nightlife on June 29, 2008, 06:22:03 AM
capacitor70, the two threads may be alike but I think more is being accomplished here. Neither of the two are replica's of s1r's and both are only attempts to duplicate what he has done. Lets all work together seeing that we all have the same goal.

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: carbully on June 29, 2008, 06:37:45 AM
Nightlife,
 
Quote
Do you have a link to the comment you speak of?  As for a third wire coming from the boot, I have yet to see a "boot" and there are only two wires attached to the nipple of the spark plug. The wire that comes from the nipple that is bared, may just be used to kill the motor. The only three wire configuration seen, are those attached to what ever is in the container.

You are right there is no boot. I have edited my last post to delete the boot comment. Here is the link you asked for: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/WaterFuel1978/message/5547

The black wire was for a cut off, if you look it dont go no where it
just hangs there, just touch this wire to the block and it kills the
spark to the plug. The hose was in the bottle about 2 inches.


This is post #5547 in the waterfuel1978 Yahoo group.

-carbully
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: send_to_nice on June 29, 2008, 09:35:42 AM
Hey guys

I've been a silent reader of this site on and off for a while now. This one really has got my attention. When I first saw the vid, I thought 'so what? it's just a spark. Electricity does that with any spark gap' but then seeing how different it behaves without water did make me wonder.

I've got a couple of questions.

1) Is energy 'released' with the explosion? If so, is the amount of energy released greater than that fed into it by the battery?

2) How do petrol engines get the power for their spark? I'm guessing it's not the battery, since you can have two-stroke lawnmower engines that you start by hand and obviously have no battery. In these examples, it appears that current has to be constantly fed into them. That makes me wonder whether we're not just converting electricity into kinetic energy. I'm willing to be proven wrong on this.

3) (and this is the big one). If this is so simple, why has it not been done in the history of the ICE? I know it's a pretty naive way to be, but I've always found it impossible to create cool inventions since there's always someone who has beaten you to it. I can't believe that nobody else has discovered this before now. I know there are always stories about guys who built water-powered engines then died mysteriously, but surely at an industry level there must be companies who can figure this out.  We can put increasingly powerful computers on decreasingly small chips; we can design robots; build bridges bigger than people ever imagined, and yet we can't discover how to do this until now?

I'm not a skeptic at all. These are just questions I have come up with after following this thread lately. I really like how this is becoming an open source project.

Cheers
Richard
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 29, 2008, 09:46:11 AM
Luc, please don't get upset if we discuss s1r's setup here because I feel it has a lot to do with this topic as well as what can be figured out about his setup can contribute to yours and this topic. The way yours setup is designed, it will take a extra timing sequence to energize the cap and I don?t see s1r?s set up having a second timing setup. This tells me that there must be a easier way and we should all study s1r?s setup to find out what it is.
 If you prefer, we can start a new thread and discuss his setup there. I just feel it would best to discuss them both here so that we can all stay on the same level.
 
Hi nightlife and everyone, please do fell free to discus the s1r's system since the circuit I posted is a replication attempt of his. The circuit I suggested is not like his but it does show a good effect.

I have noticed in s1r's (video 1) that one lead of the inverter output is going directly to the ground base of the plug and the other to the container, which would mean he is only rectifying one side of the inverter output. I have been testing a setup like this and was able to get it to work for a while with no capacitor, just a coil, also the spark light was very bright. I'll play around with it tomorrow since it is past 3am now, so that is it for me.

I'll post if I find anything new.

At everyone, please keep this topics only on s1r style replication, which would mean no capacitive bank discharge system since we know this is not in his system.

Thank you all for your input.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: mrock on June 29, 2008, 10:29:38 AM
gotoluc and all,

First time,Don't know what to say.
Accept check this ruff drawing and see if it lines up.
didn't take time to draw properly, I will if y'all want.
Also s1r original drawing attached maybe the poles
of the coils are touching the contacts when energized and giving
your pulsesing magnetic effect. that's how he drew it.
that makes it special. easy to duplicate.
Really neat stuff !

thanks,
mrock
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: mrock on June 29, 2008, 10:35:13 AM
Forgot this also.

thanks again,
mrock
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: capacitor70 on June 29, 2008, 10:47:32 AM
mrock 
   Diode ratings are correct 600V 60Amps ? Diodes are too big could not fit into can. ???
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: mrock on June 29, 2008, 10:58:33 AM
Thats s1r Diagram, mines in between.
he using newer of the shelf ones now,
im not sugesting that is what he use on
the video.

thanks,
mrock
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: tishatang on June 29, 2008, 01:00:13 PM
@gotoluc and All

This is very exciting.  Many, many thanks to S1r and Luc picking up on it.  This is power for the little guy.  Even an old mechanic like me could give this a try.  Unfortunately, I am a long ways from home.  I will have to sit on the sidelines and be a cheerleader for you all.

In regards to engines to modify:
There are many 2-stroke weed eaters laying around.  But I recommend a 4-stroke engine.  Two cycle engines get their lube from oil being mixed with gas.  On only water, it will quickly burn up!  You could try and mix some soluble oil in with the water to lube the bearings.  It will be better than nothing if you go the two cycle way. 

Good luck to all

Tishatang
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: pese on June 29, 2008, 03:57:01 PM
Have any try this ?

its work?

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=hMEFPgaNj9U&NR=1  100% Hyfrogen car

Gustav Pese
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 29, 2008, 04:41:54 PM
Have any try this ?

its work?

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=hMEFPgaNj9U&NR=1  100% Hyfrogen car

Gustav Pese
Hi Pese,

4 posts above your post I asked everyone, please keep this topics only on s1r style replication.

Your idea could be good but is off topic. I am surprised you would of posted this here. Can you please delete your post and start a new topic on this since we are looking at a ways to change water to a fuel in the combustion chamber here and your idea is very different.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: innovation_station on June 29, 2008, 04:55:30 PM
too much bs ....

u need my cap charger  ;D  or a neo relay vibarting spark gap   to make things much simpler....


ist
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on June 29, 2008, 05:34:02 PM
Hi All,

Please see my two new videos here:

http://www.youtube.com/m1a9r9s9

I believe I have replicated a setup that does the same thing as s1r9a9m9 shows in his videos. I believe the setup configuration can allow a combustion engine to be run on water only instead of petrol/gas through the same fuel system on the engine.

In my videos, you will see I am now replicating an engine's ignition system using a signal generator switching a transistor driver that pulses an ignition coil at 20 Hz. This is powered seperately by a small 12V battery although the sig gen is powered from mains power.

I am now using a 300W 12-240V DC to AC inverter to charge up a small capacitor that is effectively in parallel with the spark plug via some diodes. The system works very well, as you can see in the video and only uses 2-2.5 amps on the inverter's input.

With this new setup I was again surprised to find that even after running it continuously for 15 minutes, the spark plug is stone cold to the touch. The water explosions are cold and there is no heat that I can feel. I cannot explain this and my assumption that it was hot and warmed up the water was incorrect. It is a cold explosion or the explosion itself cools the plug tremendously through very fast evaporation of the water. So it would seem that because the explosions may actually cool the cylinder, external heating to assist the humidity and moisture content of the air may be required after all for cooler climates. Also, there is no smell whatsoever and only cold moisture around the spark plug.

Please see following a circuit diagram of my latest setup and some pictures.

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on June 29, 2008, 05:41:05 PM
mrock: great diagram! I think you might have nailed S1r setup. Now we just need the right turns for for the coils and such  ;D
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Mark69 on June 29, 2008, 05:44:00 PM
@ Luc and all,

When u guys get this figured out pretty well, can you make a diagram that is easily understood for those of us that do not have any electrical background?  I mean you will need to spell everything out specifically, for me, at least.  I dont know what the different symbols mean and such.  Keep up the great work!!!

MArk
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 29, 2008, 06:24:31 PM
Hi everyone, this circuit idea came to me :).  I did not test it wet but what do you all think ::)

I have to go out for a few hours but I'll check when I come back.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: vlindos on June 29, 2008, 06:31:48 PM
Hi All,
....
In my videos, you will see I am now replicating an engine's ignition system using a signal generator switching a transistor driver that pulses an ignition coil at 20 Hz. This is powered seperately by a small 12V battery although the sig gen is powered from mains power.

I am now using a 300W 12-240V DC to AC inverter to charge up a small capacitor that is effectively in parallel with the spark plug via some diodes. The system works very well, as you can see in the video and only uses 2-2.5 amps on the inverter's input.

Please see following a circuit diagram of my latest setup and some pictures.

Regards,

Ossie


On your circuit there is "90V Neon" what is that neon lamp?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on June 29, 2008, 06:43:04 PM
@ Luc and all,

When u guys get this figured out pretty well, can you make a diagram that is easily understood for those of us that do not have any electrical background?  I mean you will need to spell everything out specifically, for me, at least.  I dont know what the different symbols mean and such.  Keep up the great work!!!

MArk


Mark 

At this  site 

http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/

Chapter  12   is basic  electronics  from  the  viewpoint of   a free energy  expermenter
Once  you  study that chapter you  should  be able to  follow MOST of the  stuff on  this  site .


gary
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nightlife on June 29, 2008, 07:37:18 PM
Is it possible that s1r could be using a pump start relay and that is what is in the container?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: exxcomm0n on June 29, 2008, 08:00:19 PM
@ Luc

I apologize for my previous post as I did not read enough and it was not relevant to your experiment.

I would like to propose that the next step (after successful replication) be to replicate the effect in a closed atmosphere (with some sort of pressure gauge) to measure the energy produced by the radical disassociation of the water by plasma.

I thinking of a cheap clear plastic soda bottle with the label peeled off, a modified spark plug "screwed" into the side, a pressure gauge in the lid/cap, and a way to introduce water mist into the air tight atmosphere of the bottle.

I will try to replicate your schematic and do this (I will need the help of a ham radio friend to realize the electronics).

A very exciting effect, and I hope to contribute good factual data to your discovery.

:D
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ramset on June 29, 2008, 08:10:08 PM
EXX  A chamber to compare fuel [gasoline]Versus the effect would probably be more productive attaching a plenum to plug base should be relatively easy with a pop cork and air dial [presure]gauge   Chet
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: sigmaX on June 29, 2008, 08:28:29 PM
Hi Everyone!

Congratulations to everybody that is actively suggesting ideas and replicating! I am reading in awe, how, very probably, history might be changed by all you people!! Please don?t forget to sleep a bit ! Ideas will be clearer!

How about water quality ? What kind of watter supply are you using to spray over the spark ?

Maybe someone can use different types of water and see if any difference in explosion is perceived ?

Like: Distilled water, mineral water, tap water, ocean water (salt), etc.

If I am correct, the best water would probably be the one used for HHO (with some electrolytes) or even distilled water ? (I am thinking long term, motor abuse, in here).

Regards,

SigmaX

p.d. On monday, I will try to replicate this for myself. Everything is closed down here, and I am missing the whole setup (got to buy everything!!)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xee on June 29, 2008, 08:31:49 PM
@ callanan,
Did you remove the resistor from the spark plug? It is hard to believe that the resistor would not get hot and heat up the plug. Great documentation. Thanks.

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nightlife on June 29, 2008, 08:57:48 PM
sigmaX, page 42 of the following link gives us results from testing done. It shows ocean water having the highest BTU rating and lake/reservoir having the second highest.

 It also shows the break down % of oxygen, nitrogen and hydrogen of each of the different waters tested.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bigblue on June 29, 2008, 10:28:06 PM
Luc,

        I was still searching on the firestorm plasma sparkplugs and come up with this link, at sounds like Robert Krupa has tried the plasma spark in the chamber with water. Here is his email----interesting choice in words   flamefromwater@yahoo.com  and here is a link from a gentleman that was working with Robert last fall,   http://www.worldwidescam.info/rattewater.htm        May the  GOD of Abraham bless this project........jeff
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on June 29, 2008, 10:43:47 PM
Luc: i saw you new diagram. That is much more like S1r's. But i saw something that didnt look right to me, i made a change on your image, let me know if i am right  ;)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: tishatang on June 29, 2008, 11:02:02 PM
@Callanan

You are really on top of this.  I commend you on your work. 
From my point of view, there are two possibilities for the plug to be cold:

It is an implosion, not an explosion.
It is negative (cold) electricity.

It may be both.  The implosion leads to the negative electricity being generated. 

In reading the PDF file you posted on the s1r, no one seems to have caught on that there is a power amplification here.  The "Effective Circuit" diagram shows the high voltage coil with 34,000 volts @ .38 amps = 12,920 VA.  But, going to the plug we have 24,000 volts @ 6.3 amps = 151,200 VA.  This gives us a gain factor of 11.7 times.  The magic of the spark gap has allowed the high voltage source to piggyback the amps of the low voltage source.  Is this the secret of the Gray engine?  His spark gap with clever circuits is allowing the same thing to happen?  Is the secret of cold electricity the combining of High voltage low amps with low voltage high amps by use of a spark gap?

After we get our cars running on water, we should be thinking of making pulse motors to drive the car like Gray did and do away with the ICE forever?
As long as I am dreaming, dream big!

To see if there really is a power factor gain, you could run some wires from your plug to a large neon sign transformer in reverse.  In other words, the high voltage will be the input and it will drop the voltage down to a usable level.  If you could run it at 50 or 60 cycles per second, we can test with motors or light bulbs and see what we get.  If you could put a capacitor inline as a series resonant circuit, it will help generate a good sine wave from the pulses.  A large cap at these voltages would be really dangerous and I don't know if you want to do this?   Maybe this will lead to a home power plant?

I Hope I am not grasping at straws and there is something here.

Good luck to all
Chris


Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 29, 2008, 11:07:12 PM
Luc: i saw you new diagram. That is much more like S1r's. But i saw something that didnt look right to me, i made a change on your image, let me know if i am right  ;)
Hi xbox hacker and everyone, I'm back home now but I think I posted the circuit in too much of a hurry before going out. Let me think about this again. I had a clear idea but my EE skills are not as good as my thoughts.

I'll get back to you on this.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 29, 2008, 11:28:44 PM
Hi All,

Please see my two new videos here:

http://www.youtube.com/m1a9r9s9

I believe I have replicated a setup that does the same thing as s1r9a9m9 shows in his videos. I believe the setup configuration can allow a combustion engine to be run on water only instead of petrol/gas through the same fuel system on the engine.

In my videos, you will see I am now replicating an engine's ignition system using a signal generator switching a transistor driver that pulses an ignition coil at 20 Hz. This is powered seperately by a small 12V battery although the sig gen is powered from mains power.

I am now using a 300W 12-240V DC to AC inverter to charge up a small capacitor that is effectively in parallel with the spark plug via some diodes. The system works very well, as you can see in the video and only uses 2-2.5 amps on the inverter's input.

With this new setup I was again surprised to find that even after running it continuously for 15 minutes, the spark plug is stone cold to the touch. The water explosions are cold and there is no heat that I can feel. I cannot explain this and my assumption that it was hot and warmed up the water was incorrect. It is a cold explosion or the explosion itself cools the plug tremendously through very fast evaporation of the water. So it would seem that because the explosions may actually cool the cylinder, external heating to assist the humidity and moisture content of the air may be required after all for cooler climates. Also, there is no smell whatsoever and only cold moisture around the spark plug.

Please see following a circuit diagram of my latest setup and some pictures.

Regards,

Ossie
WOW Ossie, I did not have enough time to check your post before going out but just now I looked at your video and it looks great ;)

Thank you for making this better once again ;D as I said before, you are my hero.

It's very cool 8) that it stays COOL.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 29, 2008, 11:34:41 PM
@ Luc

I apologize for my previous post as I did not read enough and it was not relevant to your experiment.

I would like to propose that the next step (after successful replication) be to replicate the effect in a closed atmosphere (with some sort of pressure gauge) to measure the energy produced by the radical disassociation of the water by plasma.

I thinking of a cheap clear plastic soda bottle with the label peeled off, a modified spark plug "screwed" into the side, a pressure gauge in the lid/cap, and a way to introduce water mist into the air tight atmosphere of the bottle.

I will try to replicate your schematic and do this (I will need the help of a ham radio friend to realize the electronics).

A very exciting effect, and I hope to contribute good factual data to your discovery.

:D
Hi exxcomm0n, at the speed Ossie is going he may just install it strait to the cumbustion engine.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: geovel56 on June 29, 2008, 11:36:57 PM
Hi Ossie,

Great circuit design!  We here in the US do not have 220-240 50 Hz mains nor use 220-240 VAC 50 Hz inverters.  Not being an electrical circuit design person, can you draw the same circuit you graciously gave us only using 12 VDC to 110-120 VAC 60 Hz inverter.  Also, is the signal generator powered by 220-240 VAC mains required for this to work?  Please post to the forum or email me.

Thank you in advance,
Geo
geovel56@yahoo.com
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: lefferdink on June 30, 2008, 12:03:03 AM
Will there be any newer diagrams & or parts where you can go to the candy store and purchase them; like the inverter?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 30, 2008, 12:03:31 AM
Hi everyone, if you want a 220v inverter they are available on eBay ;D

Here is one: http://cgi.ebay.com/Car-500W-DC-12V-to-AC-220V-One-USB2-0-Power-Inverter_W0QQitemZ270250238287QQihZ017QQcategoryZ31510QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

This one in the USA: http://cgi.ebay.com/12V-DC-TO-AC-POWER-INVERTER-ADAPTOR-CONVERTER-300W-220V_W0QQitemZ140244494981QQihZ004QQcategoryZ79816QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

and here is a list them: http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?sofocus=bs&sbrftog=1&from=R10&satitle=220v+inverter&sacat=-1%26catref%3DC6&sargn=-1%26saslc%3D2&sadis=200&fpos=ZIP%2FPostal&sabfmts=1&saobfmts=insif&ftrt=1&ftrv=1&saprclo=&saprchi=&fsop=1%26fsoo%3D1&fgtp=

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: LarryC on June 30, 2008, 12:06:56 AM
Great circuit design!  We here in the US do not have 220-240 50 Hz mains nor use 220-240 VAC 50 Hz inverters.  Not being an electrical circuit design person, can you draw the same circuit you graciously gave us only using 12 VDC to 110-120 VAC 60 Hz inverter.  Also, is the signal generator powered by 220-240 VAC mains required for this to work?  Please post to the forum or email me.


The drawing shows a voltage doubling circuit.

Regards, Larry
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 30, 2008, 12:12:38 AM
The drawing shows a voltage doubling circuit.

Regards, Larry
Hi Larry, glad ;D to  see you here. Thanks for the circuit.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: kremlin01 on June 30, 2008, 12:20:43 AM
Hi Luc, great stuff, looks like another sleepless night for me.
Question, do you folks ever sleep?

Regards, Bren.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: LarryC on June 30, 2008, 12:36:49 AM
Hi Larry, glad ;D to  see you here. Thanks for the circuit.


Thanks, you're doing a great job of administrating this thread. Getting my act together, that's why I had the circuit. I have a big killer cap that's been gathering dust for years, 690MFD at 450 VDC. It's bigger than the ignition coil! Thanks for giving me an excuse to use it.

I plan on using the variac with a 12 to 120 transformer, so I should be able to set it at 400 with no problem. I'll be careful, but if you don't here from me again you'll know why.

Regards, Larry
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on June 30, 2008, 12:43:10 AM
UPDATE!!!!!!!! ;D

Drop the bridges you dont need them!! here is a diagram of my working circuit!!!!!
IT WORKS!!!!!
Keep you spark gap @ .050 - .060... too small and the inverter bogs down @ .050 and up it runs normal!

It has a nice BRIGHT flash and a big SNAP! I do have a video camera, but no way to get too to the computer (i am working on that now)  ;)

ALSO... dont try to gap the plug with a metal gap-er while the inverter is on....LOL....OUCH!!  ::)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hartiberlin on June 30, 2008, 12:52:25 AM
Hi Ossi,
great new tests and circuit.

Did you already take any scope shots of your 10 uF cap voltage ?

How does the voltage on the cap fall during the sparking ?

Maybe if you have a high voltage scope head can you also
show the voltage at the spark plug directly ?

Be carefull not to kill your scope with the high voltage
spikes...



@Luc,
your new circuit makes not much sense to me.

The effect is, that a high voltage spike from the ignition coil
creates a ionized conductive channel for the low voltage cap charge
to be discharged and instantly creating steam and electrolysed HHO,
which burns off in a Bang...

So Ossi?s circuit is exactly right,
just charge up a capacitor and trigger the sparkgap with
high voltage to make the sparkgap conductive, so the cap can
discharge in an instant and can evapourate and electrolyse the water droplets.

Because of the evapouration and the heat it consumes the sparkplug probably stays pretty cold
as Ossi has found out.

Now the question is,
if we can make this also on a bigger area, not just on the tiny small
contact point of the sparkplug...

If we could explode and evapourate the water droplets on maybe 2 x 2 inches
altogether, that would really give a nice explosion cell !

The question is, if the best application for it is
really inside a cylinder to propell a piston or
if it could also be used in other way, e.g. via the idea
of a MHD generator to produce electricity...


Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nightlife on June 30, 2008, 12:57:47 AM
xbox hacker, good job. That set up I could see being in s1r's container.



 Luc, can you confirm it for us as to working as desired?

 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: vince on June 30, 2008, 01:05:49 AM
Hi Gotoluc

Great work!

I tried a simple test to see if I could get the water to "burn" and it wasn't that hard to do. I used a small TV chassis to feed High voltage to a pair of microwave capacitors wired in parallel and then to a spark plug with the resistor removed. It would charge the capacitors and discharge at it's own frequency with a very strong white spark.  When I sprayed water on it (FINE MIST) it would flash a bright orange flame much larger than the original spark.  The effect lasts for several other sparks until the water burns off.
I am truly amazed that a simple high voltage setup can actually flash water.

Here is my setup.

http://picasaweb.google.com/vincemormile/WaterTest/photo?authkey=gITG9gFcghI#5217442680332392498

Vince
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 30, 2008, 01:25:40 AM
UPDATE!!!!!!!! ;D

Drop the bridges you dont need them!! here is a diagram of my working circuit!!!!!
IT WORKS!!!!!
Keep you spark gap @ .050 - .060... too small and the inverter bogs down @ .050 and up it runs normal!

It has a nice BRIGHT flash and a big SNAP! I do have a video camera, but no way to get too to the computer (i am working on that now)  ;)

ALSO... dont try to gap the plug with a metal gap-er while the inverter is on....LOL....OUCH!!  ::)

That is very good if you're getting results with this even more simple circuit. Can you measure the DC resistance and henries (if you have a meter) of the primary of the coil and post it please. I think that will also play a part here.

Great job there xbox hacker

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 30, 2008, 01:33:31 AM
Hi Gotoluc

Great work!

I tried a simple test to see if I could get the water to "burn" and it wasn't that hard to do. I used a small TV chassis to feed High voltage to a pair of microwave capacitors wired in parallel and then to a spark plug with the resistor removed. It would charge the capacitors and discharge at it's own frequency with a very strong white spark.  When I sprayed water on it (FINE MIST) it would flash a bright orange flame much larger than the original spark.  The effect lasts for several other sparks until the water burns off.
I am truly amazed that a simple high voltage setup can actually flash water.

Here is my setup.

http://picasaweb.google.com/vincemormile/WaterTest/photo?authkey=gITG9gFcghI#5217442680332392498

Vince

Hi Vince, good for you :D I think we will find many possible variations on this basic circuit idea.

Keep up the good work ;D and find what you can do with this circuit, like can you light fluorecent bulbs with it and how many.

Have fun and play safe and thank for sharing.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 30, 2008, 01:39:55 AM
@Luc,
your new circuit makes not much sense to me.

The effect is, that a high voltage spike from the ignition coil
creates a ionized conductive channel for the low voltage cap charge
to be discharged and instantly creating steam and electrolysed HHO,
which burns off in a Bang...

Regards, Stefan.

Hi Stefan, yes I know my circuit is flawed. I had a quick vision and tried to transfer it in electronics in a hurry just before going out for some hours. As I said before my electronic skills are not strong. What I will do is write my thoughts and someone else can create the circuit.


At anyone and everyone, please share this topic with everyone you have in your email address book and ask them to do the same regardless of what you think. We need this out to the World.

Luc

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Sprocket on June 30, 2008, 01:46:07 AM
I realise that the ultimate goal is to replace petrol/gas entirely, but seeing as 99% of cars will need their timing retarded, (non-trivial, especially as 99% of cars on the road are of the newer variety) wouldn't this idea on its own result in a significant increase in mpg?  It would be much easier to test on a real car engine as well...
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on June 30, 2008, 01:49:37 AM
VIDEO UPDATE!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuK80kL6O64

I am so soorrry about the quality, its from a phone....LOL  ::)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nightlife on June 30, 2008, 02:00:59 AM
xbox hacker,
Quote
VIDEO UPDATE!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuK80kL6O64


 What is the excessive clicking noise in the back ground? It doesn't match the time of the spark and I hear more clicks then I see sparks.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Super God on June 30, 2008, 02:01:39 AM
I'm glad to see that we are finally onto something awesome, the s1r9a9m9 system and not boosters which has been done to death.  Not that boosters are bad by any means.  We may very well need some boosters to smooth out engine performance down the line.  By the way, did you hear that jcbx of waterfuel1978 got his volvo running on water?  There's two.  Who's next?  RACE I SAY!  Haha.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 30, 2008, 02:03:59 AM
I realise that the ultimate goal is to replace petrol/gas entirely, but seeing as 99% of cars will need their timing retarded, (non-trivial, especially as 99% of cars on the road are of the newer variety) wouldn't this idea on its own result in a significant increase in mpg?  It would be much easier to test on a real car engine as well...

Hi Sprocket, thanks for looking at this topic. That is true what you are saying but it would be vary easy to make a circuit all in one box that all you do is unplug your spark plug wires and plug them in this box which will have the new wires that you will plug back in your spark plugs and turn the knob to the timing that works best and you are ready to go. If you want to burn gas that would be your choice.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 30, 2008, 02:07:40 AM
By the way, did you hear that jcbx of waterfuel1978 got his volvo running on water?  There's two.  Who's next?  RACE I SAY!  Haha.

Hi SG, is he sharing his circuit? and if not then why?

Please invite him here to share.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on June 30, 2008, 02:21:06 AM
xbox hacker,

 What is the excessive clicking noise in the back ground? It doesn't match the time of the spark and I hear more clicks then I see sparks.

that sound is me slapping the jumper cable on the positive terminal of the coil...i dont have a momentary switch to put in line. I had put the ever most smallest amount of water on the plug. I am in south Florida, its high humidity on film day and just started to rain. I was still trying to get a arc sfter the water was gone.... Luc had the same results in his video ;)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on June 30, 2008, 02:23:42 AM
Super God: i dont think he is running the car on the system, but just useing the cars ignition to make the spark... here is his video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXYGgMuFZUs
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 30, 2008, 02:31:50 AM
that sound is me slapping the jumper cable on the positive terminal of the coil...i dont have a momentary switch to put in line. I had put the ever most smallest amount of water on the plug. I am in south Florida, its high humidity on film day and just started to rain. I was still trying to get a arc sfter the water was gone.... Luc had the same results in his video ;)

xbox hacker, I know you're happy about the results and I am also happy of your findings but I think we are seeing here that we can have many variations of this circuit. So before we decide which one is a S1R replication we will need to do more tests. So lets take the time needed to better understand what we have here.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on June 30, 2008, 03:02:05 AM
Schematic update!!

extra diode for inverter protection. I dont have any, so results will have to wait till tomorrow.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: pese on June 30, 2008, 03:03:51 AM
The drawing shows a voltage doubling circuit.

Regards, Larry

ITS NOT DUBLING !!

it give normal DC Voltages out.

12volts AC wil give 15volts DC approx
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: pese on June 30, 2008, 03:07:31 AM
Schematic update!!

extra diode for inverter protection. I dont have any, so results will have to wait till tomorrow.

CAN NOT WORK.

ONE of the 2 Diodes tat was wired to the invert , from them
is minimum ONE in wrong direction (polarity)

Also 2 Diodes not becessara- oneis enough
Pese
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nightlife on June 30, 2008, 03:15:06 AM
xbox hacker,  I don?t recall a diode in between the inverter and the spark plug on the one lead. Why do you feel one placed in between is necessary?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: pese on June 30, 2008, 03:26:51 AM
xbox hacker,  I don?t recall a diode in between the inverter and the spark plug on the one lead. Why do you feel one placed in between is necessary?
Both diode will give only positive DC to both end of spark.
Will not work, because current corcle is not closed. (open)
if upper diode  is used as shon.
the lower one  in reverse   or onmitted  (only wired without diode) than this part of circuit is OK
Gustav Pese
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: amigo on June 30, 2008, 03:31:31 AM
ITS NOT DUBLING !!

it give normal DC Voltages out.

12volts AC wil give 15volts DC approx

Perhaps he meant this one... ?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: innovation_station on June 30, 2008, 03:31:38 AM
got water ??   lol

great work guys!!!

i just cant stop with the suggestions   sorry guys....

but here is 1 more

so this is cold electricty we play with here

the way i see it is this ...  we need to use a tiny bit of HOT ELECTRICTY ...  to create a LOT OF COLD ELECTRICTY and use the cold electricty  to burn the water...

pluse a tranny collect the bemf send it to the input of the ignition coil amp it with the coil burn the water

no ??

add 1 more unit with out the spark plugg  discharge ign coil to pos of deep cycle batt no??

this set up should use only 1 diode  on the out put of the tranny a microwave diode ....

ist

so we need to make a magnetic feild...   and we collect the  colapse of the feild and it powers the ign coil  ;) depending on how this is configured  it can recharge the source battery or cap and it can send the hot and cold  power out as 1 or bounce the hot back to its source and only use the cold  and if you could collect the hot that was sent back in a cap you could reuse the first charge.......

 ;D   
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: LarryC on June 30, 2008, 03:34:33 AM
ITS NOT DUBLING !!

it give normal DC Voltages out.

12volts AC wil give 15volts DC approx

Sorry pese, found the circuit in an old electronics book while looking for a 120 to 240 method to use for this project. It is usually correct, you did have a 25% increase so it must be partially working.  Are your caps rated to handle 240V, if so try 120V in? I'll try some testing tomorrow to check it out. If it doesn't work, there is other designs that I can check out.

@amigo,

Thanks, that is one of the other designs, but the one I showed was supposed to be the most efficient.

@pese

Would you try amigo's design as a reference? Thanks.

Regards, Larry
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on June 30, 2008, 03:37:00 AM
xbox hacker,  I don?t recall a diode in between the inverter and the spark plug on the one lead. Why do you feel one placed in between is necessary?
Your right, but...

With the battery powering the inverter and the inverter hooked up as shown in the first schematic, it works on the bench. But i thought... the negative terminal on the coil and the negative side of the battery (in a car) should be connected at all times. So i clamped the neg jumper cable to the neg side of the coil, hooked up the system as shown in my first schematic, turned on the inverter....nothing so far .... then took the positive jumper cable to tap it on the positive side of the coil to make the arc at the plug...and BLAM...invert took a dump! LOL I replaced the fuse, and applied power to the inverter and it started to smoke! So its dun! I will get a new one tomorrow. No big deal. it was $25 new...lol

So i hope it will not fry a new one with the added diode...MORE TESTING TO COME!!

Quote
CAN NOT WORK.

ONE of the 2 Diodes tat was wired to the invert , from them
is minimum ONE in wrong direction (polarity)

Also 2 Diodes not becessara- oneis enough
Pese
Thats what you would think...but it did work as shown in rev2... i still got a good plasma arc, if i flip the diode on the very bottom of the schematic the other way, then it does not work at all!! i only have a 1n4002...i need to full test with a 1n4007 (to feel safe ;) )
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: caz on June 30, 2008, 03:37:47 AM
Luc, Outstanding sharing, Thank you!!! I'm working on replicating your example and watching all this come together with great interest. Chris
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nightlife on June 30, 2008, 03:47:26 AM
xbox hacker,
Quote
then took the positive jumper cable to tap it on the positive side of the coil to make the arc at the plug...and BLAM...invert took a dump! LOL I replaced the fuse, and applied power to the inverter and it started to smoke! So its dun!

 Well that?s a lesson for us all to learn from. LOL

 Now I see why you are thinking of using the other diode.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 30, 2008, 04:02:48 AM
Luc, Outstanding sharing, Thank you!!! I'm working on replicating your example and watching all this come together with great interest. Chris

Welcome Chris, please keep us up to date with your findings and remember for you to share this with everyone you know :)

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ramset on June 30, 2008, 04:17:19 AM
WELL i feel it is very important to try and establish just how much power is produced by a normal combustion    I have done this many times over the years for the 4th of july in an open chamber     will enclose bang in a large plenum to start [with psi gauge] and standard fuel injector [set for idle] I will try to use readily available components for easy replication     unless we have a target[an idea of how much power [psi in this case] a normal ICE spark makes} we will just be chasing our tails   hopefully i can get this done tomorrow and post results and Pix  Chet  PS  IF anybody knows this info already please tell me
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: mrock on June 30, 2008, 04:27:14 AM
xbox hacker,

You need a 6 amp 6A10 diode.

thanks,
mrock

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on June 30, 2008, 04:33:02 AM
All,

People are overcomplicating the circuit and process for nothing. It is VERY SIMPLE to get water to explode with little energy input in the spark plug discharge of an ignition system. All that is needed is a small cap of a few hundred volts and a few uf and a high CURRENT high voltage diode, placed in series across the spark plug. You can use WHATEVER to charge the cap to a few hundred volts DC. An inverter, oscillator, anything.

All you need to do is make sure that the series loop of the capacitor, diode and spark plug is very very low resistance. In fact as low as you can get it for your components. The lower the resistance of this loop, the lower the energy input requirement is to make the water explode. It is possible to do this with even a few hundred milliamps.

The key component here is the diode. It MUST be a HV diode to protect the capacitor and power supply from shunting the ignition pulse but it also MUST be a HIGH CURRENT diode to reduce the series loop resistance as much as possible. A microwave diode is a good HV diode but it is NOT a good high current diode. The diode must be able to handle very short surges in the hundreds of amps! This is why I use many 1N5404 diodes in series. These are 400V 4 amp diodes they can handle surges in the hundreds of amps. Putting them in series turns them into a single HV diode capable of handling thousands of volts. If you have many microwave oven diodes then put as many as you got in parallel. But they are expensive so it is much more cost effective to simply use many 1N5404 diodes in series or series parallel combinations.

As I have explained the circuit requirement and operation to explode water in an ignition is very simple. So simply that no one will believe it but it just is. S1r9a9m9's circuit uses heavy 60 amp diodes but is too complicated and not necessary. His use of coils is simply to get the same effect as a capacitor, just in an inverse reactive way.

There is no energy gain in this circuit! The in his circuit the measured difference between 36K 0.8 amp input and 24K 6amp output is just what his meters are showing when the ignition pulse and the inverter pulse is mixed. It is NOT real power. The real power and energy and magic is the the water explosion itself. This is the only place in this circuit where something unconventional is occurring.

The energy appears the be negative in this explosion.

Ossie




Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ramset on June 30, 2008, 04:33:45 AM
ONCE a PSI value for normal combustion is established   replacing the plug with one of these circuits[and water instead of gas] will tell us how much power we have compared to normal ICE spark  Chet
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on June 30, 2008, 04:37:55 AM
Been following the S1R water car for awhile now. Glad I came across this site and this particular post. I have very little understanding of electronics but I have great mechanical/fabrication skills. I tried replicating callanan's first diagram he posted and cannot get it to work for me. I get no high voltage spark unless I unhook either side of the bridge rectifier. I don't have enough electrical knowledge to know what's going on with it but if somebody will post up a simple design that actually works then I can have this on a small engine in a flash and see what happens.

Gimme the electrical and I'll do the mechanical basically is what I'm saying then I'll post a video if it's successful.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: k4zep on June 30, 2008, 04:52:47 AM
UPDATE!!!!!!!! ;D

Drop the bridges you dont need them!! here is a diagram of my working circuit!!!!!
IT WORKS!!!!!
Keep you spark gap @ .050 - .060... too small and the inverter bogs down @ .050 and up it runs normal!

It has a nice BRIGHT flash and a big SNAP! I do have a video camera, but no way to get too to the computer (i am working on that now)  ;)

ALSO... dont try to gap the plug with a metal gap-er while the inverter is on....LOL....OUCH!!  ::)

Hi Xbox,

Your circuit will work for a while, then the inverter will blow.  When the air/water ionizes, there is a dead short across the inverter output.  The only thing saving your inverter right now is the considerable voltage drop, 1/2 wave rectification across the Microwave diode and that is what is keeping your inverter alive. 

The beauty of your circuit is its simplicity and it is technically correct but it is just a pure brute force inductive supply with no limiting of current.  Design wise, will give you trouble down the road.  As pulse rate increases to coil, it will become a hit and miss mess as no syncronization with pulses from inverter.......For a basic demonstration unit, a good idea, as a motor driver, no banana.

Ben
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ramset on June 30, 2008, 05:01:58 AM
OSSIE seeing first hand the effect   what do you think is going on here combustion? like the MEYER spark plug ?  Chet
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nightlife on June 30, 2008, 05:05:09 AM
k4zep, reading your last comment, I am assuming you are very familiar with circuitry and I for one would like you to study this next video and tell us what you think is in the container. It would be most appreciated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tb3d_hf7R10


 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on June 30, 2008, 05:21:51 AM
Hi ramset,

I have no idea what Meyer did with his spark plug. I know he wound up being able to pump water straight into it. But if Meyer unltimately wound up doing what we are doing, then it makes sense that he kept it so secret and may have even been killed for it because it really is pretty simple and when people catch on, everyone will be doing it.

I have other people reporting to me now their successfull replications of how I am doing it. They are all confirming the explosion of the water and how there is no heat! We are all bewildered abut this. But I have done pressure tests with tubes and pipes around the spark plug that fire out a projectile and it is definately an explosion and not an implosion as gases are expanding out from the ignition point, very, very fast.

Ossie
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ramset on June 30, 2008, 05:30:06 AM
Ossie that is very good news  that makes the effect much more useful [perhaps home heating] tomorrow I will build a test chamber  for the normal ICE   then  Compare data  thankyou for the reply will share all Chet 
well just reread your post no heat ? queer  I saw a vid from a fellow Chris had flame 10 inches in the air   this is going to be wild
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on June 30, 2008, 05:41:10 AM
Hi ramset,

I said it is an explosion and the result is expanding gases very fast but I said nothing about heat! The explosion is cold! No heat! Forget about your heating plans with this. This is cold kinetic energy. I don't know about water plasma flames but I do remember that you can run your hand through a pure HHO flame without getting burnt. Those were the days of Brown's gas...

Ossie
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ramset on June 30, 2008, 06:01:30 AM
Ossie yes I reread your post and saw this   did an edit   However you know browns gas then you know about burning titanium still hope for the house  Chet
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: goldenequity on June 30, 2008, 06:37:04 AM
Hi ramset,

I said it is an explosion and the result is expanding gases very fast but I said nothing about heat! The explosion is cold! No heat! Forget about your heating plans with this. This is cold kinetic energy. I don't know about water plasma flames but I do remember that you can run your hand through a pure HHO flame without getting burnt. Those were the days of Brown's gas...

Ossie


Hi Ossie, I came across this postulation from SirHoax: SHOCKWAVE, i.e. Kinetic energy not Heat energy
Quote
Currently I came across some designs for making water explode but without a hydrogen electrolysis process. By generating a plasma electrical wave you can ignite water at rates of 4500 Meters a Second. It creates an extremely strong shock wave through the air.

Another aspect of this theory is that you can mist water into your cylinders, or a cold water vapor. Then generate a plasma spark ignition with a standard spark plug or a firestorm plug of some sort. This video is evidence that a plasma ignition in water will make a shock wave and in turn the ability to explode water inside your cylinder.
from his video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9NvboKL43Q
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: innovation_station on June 30, 2008, 06:56:46 AM
@ ossie

it is real power  just cold....  to make it use able as we currently use power just convert it to hot

how is this done?? 

i would think in reverse to how we make it  ;)

ist
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Tinker on June 30, 2008, 07:18:40 AM
How would you folks like to rock the world,

Lawn mower motors and old Camaro's are wonderful but if you want to change the world think ''Transportation''

I am talking about the big trucks that move our food and just about everything else we use on a daily basis at four dollars a gallon plus here in the states this has shot the price of food to record levels,

Based on what I have been seeing here the concept and electronics are well on the way to being sorted out.

Rudolf had it right, he created an engine that would run on any thing that contained calories, but he missed H20.

Anyone here willing or able to to take on the conversion of a diesel motor.

I would start with a modified glo plug as a ignitior. The only other issue I see is the injector pump timeing.

But that's what I think.

Be Well
Tinker

 

 

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on June 30, 2008, 07:47:15 AM
moved to diesel  thread
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nightlife on June 30, 2008, 07:54:48 AM
Tinker and other HHO for diesel design seekers, I have started a new thread to focus on HHO set up's for diesel engines to help keep this thread focused on the topic that it was started for. The new thread link is as follows:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5045.msg108993/topicseen.html#msg108993
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: carbully on June 30, 2008, 07:58:07 AM
Hey, Xbox hacker:

I am not an EE, but I am an ASE certified auto technician. I notice that in your most recent schematics you are "triggering" the HV ignition coil on the positive feed to the ignition coil's primary winding. This may work on a bench setup, but in a car you will find that the positive feed to the HV ignition coil's primary winding is not triggered, only switched on/off by the ignition switch. The HV ignition coil is triggered by making/breaking the negative side of the coil's primary winding to ground in an automotive application. Older cars used a set of "points" to do this, and newer cars use solid-state electronics to control a heavy transistor to make/break the primary winding's ground.

The only exception to this that I am aware of is some old British cars and a few older tractors.

So, where your schematics show that you are grounding the primary winding at the spark plug, in a car you will be grounding it either througn a set of points or through an ignition module.

-carbully
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on June 30, 2008, 07:58:35 AM
moved to the  diesel thread
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hoptoad on June 30, 2008, 09:18:09 AM
Hi Ossie, I came across this postulation from SirHoax: SHOCKWAVE, i.e. Kinetic energy not Heat energyfrom his video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9NvboKL43Q
Great Video.

The first thing that came to my mind with this process, is pulsed jets, as in pulsed jet engines. What a hoot, pulsed plasma / water powered jet engines.  :D

KneeDeep
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nightlife on June 30, 2008, 10:22:42 AM
Has anyone thought of using a modern automotive coil. New coils pack a punch that can kill a person. The one Luc and others are shown using only produce about 40,000 volts and there are some new ones that produce 60,000 + volts. I also think the newer ones provide more amperage as well.

 I will test a few tomorrow to see if there is any difference in the spark with having the resistor removed from the plug.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Dread on June 30, 2008, 10:34:09 AM
Hoptoad. Me too, even drew one on Friday, adapting a big turbo with a coil system mounted to the shaft between the turbines. Lol.

Anyway. Here is a couple of things to consider on the big day.
Is the explosion softer (slower acceleration front than petroleum / air) or harder (faster than petroleum air)? I guess we will find out when ignition timing is optimised. 
Also (and this might be very important) Static CR. I don't think we have to worry about pre-ignition. So, assuming the power output is < equal to a petroleum air explosion event. We could increase the CR to compensate. This might mean that we should already be focussing on increasing the spark yield to work in a Higher compression environment.   
 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: send_to_nice on June 30, 2008, 10:54:33 AM
Do we know how much power we can get out of an engine using this method? Is it going to be enough to power a magneto? Clearly, some form of circuitry would be needed to feed the right kind of power into the spark plug, but imagine this engine running itself after a simple pull-start procedure.

It all depends on 1) How much power we could extract from a magneto and 2) whether the engine itself could produce enough power from the magneto.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hoptoad on June 30, 2008, 11:54:20 AM
Do we know how much power we can get out of an engine using this method? Is it going to be enough to power a magneto? Clearly, some form of circuitry would be needed to feed the right kind of power into the spark plug, but imagine this engine running itself after a simple pull-start procedure.

It all depends on 1) How much power we could extract from a magneto and 2) whether the engine itself could produce enough power from the magneto.

In theory, the engine does not run itself, it consumes fuel, just like any other combustion engine. The cool thing is that it uses water and air and electricity.

Air is a complex gas mixture and water is a profoundly complex substance, far more than is commonly realized. It has the widest range of properties than any other known molecule. Plasma (very, very hot ions) and water and air. Hhmmmmmm.  There's room for a lot of complex chemical/electrical activity to occur. The answers to your questions may easily be provided by empirical data from real experiments, but if left only to the theorists, there's enough fodder for debate over what is happening to keep the mind boggling for quite a long time ! LOL

Including me !  :D :D  KneeDeep
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: broli on June 30, 2008, 11:59:04 AM
In theory, the engine does not run itself, it consumes fuel, just like any other combustion engine. The cool thing is that it uses water and air and electricity.

Air is a complex gas mixture and water is a profoundly complex substance, far more than is commonly realized. It has the widest range of properties than any other known molecule. Plasma (very, very hot ions) and water and air. Hhmmmmmm.  There's room for a lot of complex chemical/electrical activity to occur. The answers to your questions may easily be provided by empirical data from real experiments, but if left only to the theorists, there's enough fodder for debate over what is happening to keep the mind boggling for quite a long time ! LOL

Including me !  :D :D  KneeDeep

It's always fancy to keep stuff complex and hard to grasp so you can brag but this effect isn't. Sure the phenomenon is unknown so far but doesn't mean it's hard to get going. I believe he was asking whether you could hook a generator to the water engine and then provide the electricity from that. Using water is the last concern since this is after all the water planet.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: send_to_nice on June 30, 2008, 12:21:33 PM
I believe he was asking whether you could hook a generator to the water engine and then provide the electricity from that.
That's my question exactly. If we think of water as how it is generally viewed at the moment, there is no 'energy' in it. However, we are feeding electrical energy to the process in order to trigger a (hopefully) much more powerful reaction. So we need a constant supply of energy in order to get energy out. I am just wondering if this powerful reaction can produce enough energy to power a generator that can produce the electricity necessary to keep the engine powered.

The peak oil doomers will look for any excuse they can to bag something that debunks their 'dieback theorem' and I think in this case it will be the batteries. They're currently having a go at hybrids for this reason - they say that if you add up the energy resources they consume to manufacture and dispose of, they are actually less fuel efficient than a petrol engine. A water engine that only needs a battery to start gives them very little ammunition.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: broli on June 30, 2008, 12:28:28 PM
@send_to_nice: I don't know much about cars but I believe that's the alternators job.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ninjadaniel on June 30, 2008, 01:03:28 PM
carbully you hit the nail on the head! exactly what i was gonna say.

The simplicity of this experiment is the funniest thing, as there are heaps of people on this forum, all talking about it, and so far only 3 people have replicated it (not including s1r due to the fact he hasnt shown us his circuit).  Either its harder than it looks or there are lots of  "keyboard scientists" amongst us.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: send_to_nice on June 30, 2008, 01:10:09 PM
@send_to_nice: I don't know much about cars but I believe that's the alternators job.
You may be right. However, I always thought the alternator was what charged the battery and powered the car's electrics (eg lights, radio, fans etc) while the engine is running. A magneto, however,  powers the ignition system in simple engines such as those used in lawnmowers and chainsaws. Both these items share the characteristic of (generally speaking) being pull-start engines that require no battery. I have no idea what powers the spark on more modern engines.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Koen1 on June 30, 2008, 01:48:32 PM
The energy appears the be negative in this explosion.

Are you saying it is an implosion ??

In that case, I'm starting to smell "Joe Cell"... ;)

Just assuming for a second that there is implosion going on,
or even that there is somehow a larger explosion than should be
the case given the input energy,
would the total energy gain (at the explosion side of the equation)
plus the input energy perhaps account for the apparent energy gain
in Lucs readings? In other words, could it be that the OU readings
Luc gets are indeed not "real power" in the circuit, but when the
explosion (implosion?) is taken into account the OU readings
do accord with the total energy output? Even if the OU does not
occur as "real power" in the circuit, it does occur as "real power"
in the explosion (implosion?)...?
If so, then the apparent OU circuit readings might be a good indicator
for the final output COP...?
I'm just speculating here. ;)

And on another note, if there is implosion going on, then we might
see similar effects as are claimed to occur with the Joe Cell,
in particular the claimed cooling effect... (It is said the exhaust of
a Joe Cell modified car becomes freezing cold during operation,
because it absorbs energy from the environment as the implosion occurs.)
And that might not only be used for energy efficient air cooling,
but it may even be possible to use it as a heat sink for other
devices, thereby increasing effective energy production... :)

That said, I can't help but notice how most people working on hydrogen
and/or "water fuel" experiments seem to be focused on producing hydrogen,
but I hardly evr see anyne actually run an engine on the produced hydrogen
and then see how much electrical energy they can get from the engine
(if connected to a dynamo or even if the engine itself is part of a generator).
I do regularly see people cite the volume of gas produced by a certain amount of power,
and I see many people getting excited when they think their electrolysis circuit
is producing OU readings, quite a number getting excited when the volume of gas
they manage to produce is larger than that of others, but I hardly ever see anyone
actually talking about how their hydrogen-fueled generator produces more electrical
output than was needed to produce the hydrogen.
I have heard quite a few claims in the past of people who say they've been driving
a water-fueled car for a while already, but when push came to shove they either
disappeared from view or they had to admit they did have to hook their battery up
to a grid-powered charger every night, and were thus actually running their car on
grid power.
And if we're going to be using grid power to produce hydrogen to run our combustion
engines on, then it's still more efficient to switch over to electrical cars.
After all, unless we have some funky over unity electrolysis, the process of producing
hydrogen, then burning it to produce motive force, is quite a bit less efficient than
producing motive force directly from electricity.

So i guess the question remains: what exactly are we looking at here?
Are we looking at over-efficient electrolysis? If so, where is the proof of this,
who has compared the volumes of gas produced by this circuit to the volumes
produced by other means? Who has burnt the volumes of gas to see how much
actual power can be derived from it? Who has compared that power output to the
input to the circuit?

Or are we looking at a funky way to get what appear to be much larger spark effects?

I understand that larger air arcs by simply adding a B-field while not increasing the
voltage seems to suggest that there is somehow either an effective voltage amplification
in the B-field zone, or there is a lowering of the dielectric 'constant' of the air inside the B-field.
If it were the former, it might be possible to get actual additional power from this if we
use it in an electrolysis setup, as it would seem logical that the water also "sees" a higher
voltage and thus electrolyses faster than it should. It is of course equally possible that there
is somethign else going on that just has the effect of enlarging the spark but there is no
actual (or even "virtual") voltage increase at all, and in that case there is no additional electrolysis.
If it were the latter (dielectric constant lowered), then it seems to me we still have a similar
situation where it may be possible that the dielectric constant is lowered because the water
molecules already 'split' a little bit, increasing free charge particles, increasing conductivity,
and of course then it should take less energy to split more of them into H2 and O2. But same
thing goes here, it seem equally possible that there is a different effect at work and the electrical
conductivity increases (resistance decreases) not because of partial dissociation of the water,
but rather because of some other B-fied effect... (I'm hesitant to suggest spin-coupling ;))

So what exactly are have we got? ;)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on June 30, 2008, 02:32:47 PM
I am not an EE, but I am an ASE certified auto technician. I notice that in your most recent schematics you are "triggering" the HV ignition coil on the positive feed to the ignition coil's primary winding. This may work on a bench setup, but in a car you will find that the positive feed to the HV ignition coil's primary winding is not triggered, only switched on/off by the ignition switch. The HV ignition coil is triggered by making/breaking the negative side of the coil's primary winding to ground in an automotive application. Older cars used a set of "points" to do this, and newer cars use solid-state electronics to control a heavy transistor to make/break the primary winding's ground.

The only exception to this that I am aware of is some old British cars and a few older tractors.

So, where your schematics show that you are grounding the primary winding at the spark plug, in a car you will be grounding it either througn a set of points or through an ignition module.

-carbully
DOH!... your right, its been years since i have worked on a car with a coil like this. I started buying newer cars so i didnt have to work on them at all....LOL. I will make changes and re-post! Thank You!!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: IndianaBoys on June 30, 2008, 03:35:41 PM
Has anyone thought of using a modern automotive coil. New coils pack a punch that can kill a person. The one Luc and others are shown using only produce about 40,000 volts and there are some new ones that produce 60,000 + volts. I also think the newer ones provide more amperage as well.

 I will test a few tomorrow to see if there is any difference in the spark with having the resistor removed from the plug.

Also try it with the http://www.pulstarplug.com/

The Pulstar? Pulse Plug is not just another spark plug!
The Pulstar? pulse plug represents the first technological advancement in spark plug design in the past 100 years!

This new technology is a drop-in replacement for all spark plugs, including those iridium, high performance spark plugs. Pulstar is designed to more efficiently ignite the fuel in an engine's cylinders increasing fuel economy, horsepower and torque. Pulstar? pulse plugs look and fit like spark plugs, but incorporate an internal capacitor to deliver a spark 10 times more powerful than a spark plug with less cycle-to-cycle variation.

Pulse plugs are safe for use in all vehicles and improve combustion efficiency in all spark-ignited internal combustion engines, yielding better overall engine performance, with fuel consumption and associated green house gases reduced by as much as 10%.


IndianaBoys
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: broli on June 30, 2008, 03:48:55 PM
Also try it with the http://www.pulstarplug.com/

The Pulstar? Pulse Plug is not just another spark plug!
The Pulstar? pulse plug represents the first technological advancement in spark plug design in the past 100 years!

This new technology is a drop-in replacement for all spark plugs, including those iridium, high performance spark plugs. Pulstar is designed to more efficiently ignite the fuel in an engine's cylinders increasing fuel economy, horsepower and torque. Pulstar? pulse plugs look and fit like spark plugs, but incorporate an internal capacitor to deliver a spark 10 times more powerful than a spark plug with less cycle-to-cycle variation.

Pulse plugs are safe for use in all vehicles and improve combustion efficiency in all spark-ignited internal combustion engines, yielding better overall engine performance, with fuel consumption and associated green house gases reduced by as much as 10%.


IndianaBoys

Aren't they just using a capacitor and a switching diode in parallel. Something like this.

(http://broli.dommel.be/sparkcircuit.JPG)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: innovation_station on June 30, 2008, 04:37:46 PM
hey guys

how about a magnetic wheel  with reeds and trannys  then the system you guys are working on  out put of that to the ign system

i will do a dwg


ist ;D
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: broli on June 30, 2008, 04:52:13 PM
Ossie has uploaded a new video using a 9v battery.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOPUfRRdnW8
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: innovation_station on June 30, 2008, 04:57:51 PM
@ossie

have you tried to take power from the plug     try to recharge a battery or a cap from the plug  ;)


might blow you away....

ist
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on June 30, 2008, 05:02:28 PM
Hi All,

Because it seems that people, who may or may not lack experience in electronics, are having trouble building and replicating the exploding water effect in previously described and shown devices, I have designed, built and tested what I believe to be a very simple to build device that most people can construct themselves at home that is powered only by a small square 9V battery that is commonly used in smoke alarms. I believe even kids can make this. Please see my latest video here:

http://www.youtube.com/m1a9r9s9

The purpose of this device is not to be able to power your car on water with it but simply to allow everyone to see for themselves and show others how water can directly explode on demand with little energy input. The device produces the required discharge in the spark plug about every 1 second and uses about 100-150ma from the 9V battery. At this current level the battery won't last too long but it is fine for demonstrations. For longer and continuous runs, just use a small 12V sealed lead acid battery of say 2 A/Hs.

Please see the circuit diagram and some pictures attached below.

All that is required to build this device is the following.

- A 12V, 150ma Security Xenon Strobe Light. Available from electronic and security stores. Color does not matter!

- An old car ignition coil. Available from automobile wreckers.

- A non resistor spark plug. Available from auto shops. Must not have a resistor in it!

- Five 1N5404 diodes or five large rectifying diodes. Part number doesn't really matter. Avaliable from electronic shops.

- A 9 volt battery. The same as used in smoke alarms. Available from anywhere.

- Some hook up wire.

- Basic tools including a soldering iron and some solder.

- Handheld water sprayer filled with water.

That's all folks!!

Please build this and show it to your friends, family, your teachers, professors, work mates anyone and everyone who can't believe that water can explode. Help your kids build this as their school science fair project. Just build it for fun!

On another note, my very good friend Ben has been doing some great research on this process as there is surprisingly quite a bit in the internet about it. He has found some references claiming that the energy released, when the water apparently explodes, is one thousand times the input energy required to cause the explosion. He has found some great info out about what may actually be happening but I will leave it to him to share if he gets time.

Enjoy!

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: AtomicOrbitals on June 30, 2008, 05:10:46 PM
I replicated the original experiment in the video, with what parts I had on hand (luckily I had recently scrapped a microwave oven for parts & had a home-made ignition coil setup to test things with).

First and foremost, I agree with the comment that the correct ratio of water mist-to-air is critical. This ought to be the focus of everyone at this time.

Atmospheric pressure, humidity, and temperature (P-H-T) are the three key variables. I played with several different voltage and waveform inputs to the coil and didn't see a lot of variation, so the electrical parts are not as critical as they first appear. If you get a strong spark, it works.

Three plant misters from around the house were used to supply water, and I discovered that the one with the finest mist seems to work best. This leads me to believe that the LARGER SURFACE AREA of the water (in mist form) is what makes this experiment different.

Will report numbers for PHT to this group as they are discovered.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ramset on June 30, 2008, 05:19:46 PM
OSSIE many thanks  1000 times holy crap  have you ever pointed a laser thermometer at the plasma?  Chet  PS ask Ben Pretty please to stop by
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ramset on June 30, 2008, 05:29:42 PM
OSSIE  THIS IS WHY I THINK THERE IS MORE POTENTIAL HERE   MUST SEE    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxGeW4XXowc  CHRISP CRUNHY 1 1/2  yrs ago   Chet
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: k4zep on June 30, 2008, 05:50:43 PM
Hi All,

Because it seems that people, who may or may not lack experience in electronics, are having trouble building and replicating the exploding water effect in previously described and shown devices, I have designed, built and tested what I believe to be a very simple to build device that most people can construct themselves at home that is powered only by a small square 9V battery that is commonly used in smoke alarms. I believe even kids can make this. Please see my latest video here:

http://www.youtube.com/m1a9r9s9

The purpose of this device is not to be able to power your car on water with it but simply to allow everyone to see for themselves and show others how water can directly explode on demand with little energy input. The device produces the required discharge in the spark plug about every 1 second and uses about 100-150ma from the 9V battery. At this current level the battery won't last too long but it is fine for demonstrations. For longer and continuous runs, just use a small 12V sealed lead acid battery of say 2 A/Hs.

Please see the circuit diagram and some pictures attached below.

All that is required to build this device is the following.

- A 12V, 150ma Security Xenon Strobe Light. Available from electronic and security stores. Color does not matter!

- An old car ignition coil. Available from automobile wreckers.

- A non resistor spark plug. Available from auto shops. Must not have a resistor in it!

- Five 1N5404 diodes or five large rectifying diodes. Part number doesn't really matter. Avaliable from electronic shops.

- A 9 volt battery. The same as used in smoke alarms. Available from anywhere.

- Some hook up wire.

- Basic tools including a soldering iron and some solder.

- Handheld water sprayer filled with water.

That's all folks!!

Please build this and show it to your friends, family, your teachers, professors, work mates anyone and everyone who can't believe that water can explode. Help your kids build this as their school science fair project. Just build it for fun!

On another note, my very good friend Ben has been doing some great research on this process as there is surprisingly quite a bit in the internet about it. He has found some references claiming that the energy released, when the water apparently explodes, is one thousand times the input energy required to cause the explosion. He has found some great info out about what may actually be happening but I will leave it to him to share if he gets time.

Enjoy!

Regards,

Ossie



Hi Ossie,

Once again you have outdone yourself.  Do you realize that this could be used AS IS on a old "Hit and Miss" engine from way back......Points would simply turn on the 9V circuit and it would fire as needed!

As we have discussed via Email, the theory of how all this works is pretty well documented and the disassociative water process is possibly how the high energy output is generated.  There is a very good file on the Yahoo Groups that discusses this in a very scholarly manner.

Ben
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on June 30, 2008, 05:58:18 PM
Hi All,

Because it seems that people, who may or may not lack experience in electronics, are having trouble building and replicating the exploding water effect in previously described and shown devices, I have designed, built and tested what I believe to be a very simple to build device that most people can construct themselves at home that is powered only by a small square 9V battery that is commonly used in smoke alarms. I believe even kids can make this. Please see my latest video here:

http://www.youtube.com/m1a9r9s9

The purpose of this device is not to be able to power your car on water with it but simply to allow everyone to see for themselves and show others how water can directly explode on demand with little energy input. The device produces the required discharge in the spark plug about every 1 second and uses about 100-150ma from the 9V battery. At this current level the battery won't last too long but it is fine for demonstrations. For longer and continuous runs, just use a small 12V sealed lead acid battery of say 2 A/Hs.

Please see the circuit diagram and some pictures attached below.

All that is required to build this device is the following.

- A 12V, 150ma Security Xenon Strobe Light. Available from electronic and security stores. Color does not matter!

- An old car ignition coil. Available from automobile wreckers.

- A non resistor spark plug. Available from auto shops. Must not have a resistor in it!

- Five 1N5404 diodes or five large rectifying diodes. Part number doesn't really matter. Avaliable from electronic shops.

- A 9 volt battery. The same as used in smoke alarms. Available from anywhere.

- Some hook up wire.

- Basic tools including a soldering iron and some solder.

- Handheld water sprayer filled with water.

That's all folks!!

Please build this and show it to your friends, family, your teachers, professors, work mates anyone and everyone who can't believe that water can explode. Help your kids build this as their school science fair project. Just build it for fun!

On another note, my very good friend Ben has been doing some great research on this process as there is surprisingly quite a bit in the internet about it. He has found some references claiming that the energy released, when the water apparently explodes, is one thousand times the input energy required to cause the explosion. He has found some great info out about what may actually be happening but I will leave it to him to share if he gets time.

Enjoy!

Regards,

Ossie

Once again Ossie, thank you for this amazing demonstration ;D


At everyone, you need to follow Ossie's lead, you will not understand using your conventional thinking as I can see since some of you are starting to confuse this topic.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ramset on June 30, 2008, 06:09:34 PM
Disassociated water ? Ill take 2 please http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxGeW4XXowc  Chet
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: broli on June 30, 2008, 06:23:18 PM
For people with little EE background (like me). Here's what the ignition coil is supposed to do..

http://www.magnet.fsu.edu/education/tutorials/java/ignitioncoil/index.html
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: LarryC on June 30, 2008, 06:24:41 PM
Quote from: pese
ITS NOT DUBLING !!

it give normal DC Voltages out.

12volts AC wil give 15volts DC approx


Checked out the doubling circuit at 13V ac in, got 34V dc out, almost triple!
Used 2 -120uf 200V caps

You may have a cap problem.

Good Luck, Larry

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: k4zep on June 30, 2008, 07:07:12 PM
Disassociated water ? Ill take 2 please http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxGeW4XXowc  Chet

Hi All,


For those who like to know what is really going on and like to read technical papers,  go to the files section in the below group:

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/WaterFuel1978/files/

and read:

Graneau experiments.pdf   (You might have to join the group which I recommend)

If you slog through it, it is an eye opening experience as to what is going on here!!  It pretty well tells it like it is and it is AMAZING where the power comes from!  It is too large to attach.

Now read it darn it! 

Ben
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nightlife on June 30, 2008, 07:37:53 PM
k4zep, here is the link to the Graneau experiments.pdf

http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/EBFpSJS-sMYpa8Cek1PzGHH5WYgLGp5EbYiB0zypKT-db8__30ijrUD_Ai48FWCEJ0HNPnXiasFyEo1ipRExiqkMdXwFzKRoHls/Graneau%20experiments.pdf
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: broli on June 30, 2008, 07:39:52 PM
Hi All,


For those who like to know what is really going on and like to read technical papers,  go to the files section in the below group:

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/WaterFuel1978/files/

and read:

Graneau experiments.pdf   (You might have to join the group which I recommend)

If you slog through it, it is an eye opening experience as to what is going on here!!  It pretty well tells it like it is and it is AMAZING where the power comes from!  It is too large to attach.

k4zep, here is the link to the Graneau experiments.pdf

http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/EBFpSJS-sMYpa8Cek1PzGHH5WYgLGp5EbYiB0zypKT-db8__30ijrUD_Ai48FWCEJ0HNPnXiasFyEo1ipRExiqkMdXwFzKRoHls/Graneau%20experiments.pdf

Ah, thanks very much!

Now read it darn it! 

Ben

Jesus please grab it out of there and put it on the millions free file hosting websites. I have wasted half and hour running in loops trying to register to that group.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hartiberlin on June 30, 2008, 08:02:32 PM
Ah, thanks very much!

Now read it darn it! 

Ben


Jesus please grab it out of there and put it on the millions free file hosting websites. I have wasted half and hour running in loops trying to register to that group.

The Graneau experiments.pdf  is here now:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=get93

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: broli on June 30, 2008, 08:08:02 PM
The following catched my eye.

Quote
It was then shown that the discharge of 3.6 kJ of stored capacitor
energy would create pressures in excess of 20.000 atm, in 7 ml of saltwater :
3.6 gm of water was ejected from the accelerator barrel with a velocity of the
order of 1000 m/s?, and then punched a 1/2 inch diameter hole through a 1/4 inch
thick aluminium plate (Graneau and Graneau 1996).

Holy shit... 20.000 atm = 293.918,976 psi
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: LarryC on June 30, 2008, 11:08:20 PM
I'm having trouble getting to the spark plug resistor. The original video now just shows a broken spark plug  ???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reYRkG39XHw

Can any body give me a brief explanation or a new video?

Thanks, Larry
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: JuanDelaTorre on June 30, 2008, 11:23:38 PM
I'm having trouble getting to the spark plug resistor. The original video now just shows a broken spark plug  ???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reYRkG39XHw

Can any body give me a brief explanation or a new video?

Thanks, Larry

@LarryC

Take a look at this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-J2AHNZUZD0

User mdbreedi show an excellent method to remove the resistor from a sparkplug.  Hope this helps.

Juan
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on June 30, 2008, 11:29:43 PM
I'm having trouble getting to the spark plug resistor. The original video now just shows a broken spark plug  ???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reYRkG39XHw

Can any body give me a brief explanation or a new video?

Thanks, Larry

from youtube.."This is how to remove the top on a Champion 8339 plug and remove the resistor inside and replace with a piece of wire to use in plasma/water experiments. "
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-J2AHNZUZD0

Just buy a Champion 8339 plug
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: LarryC on June 30, 2008, 11:38:57 PM
Thanks, Juan and xbox hacker,

I'm using a lawn tractor plug and must not come off the same way. I'll have to pick up the 8339 or small lawn mower plug.

What's really weird it that the video you guys posted is the same one that I viewed when Stefan originally posted. Now it just shows a broken plug ???

Regards, Larry
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ramset on July 01, 2008, 12:01:53 AM
Larry All did you see his other vid  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bs-Uk511S_I&amp;feature=related O M G    Chet PS he's not even misting
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: livingwaters08 on July 01, 2008, 12:49:30 AM
The true test will be the challenge of preventing grounding of the inverter, or whatever device we are using to introduce the square wave.  The problem of the ignition systems negative ground will have to be overcome.   Or Has It?

I can't wait to see this actually applied to a running automobile. 

Thanks All of You for this Vital Research!

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Sprocket on July 01, 2008, 01:51:21 AM
@LarryC

Take a look at this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-J2AHNZUZD0

User mdbreedi show an excellent method to remove the resistor from a sparkplug.  Hope this helps.

Juan


All of the sparkplugs I have come across have the resistor part imbedded in the ceramic, so it is impossible to remove it - so I expect that video will be of limited use...
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: livingwaters08 on July 01, 2008, 01:57:25 AM
Can't non resistor plugs still be purchased?  Or are these only available on the antique dinosaurs (that I love) ::)  ??

Livingwaters08

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 01, 2008, 02:02:17 AM
Can somebody PLEASE help me with Ossie's circuit. I realized I was using very low voltage diodes yesterday so today I got some 5408, they didn't have 5404. These are 1000V 3A diodes. I started out with 8 and kept adding one at a time til I now have 20 of them and I still cannot get my high voltage arc. If I unhook the cap on either side I get the HV arc but as long as the cap is hooked up I can not get an arc. I turned the diodes around and get my HV arc but then I get no low voltage with it, which I expected not to anyway.

Also, what is the strobe light for? I'm assuming this is just acting as the points in an ignition system.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: boke on July 01, 2008, 02:05:10 AM
There are still a lot of non-resistor plugs around. Especially for off road applications.

Champion N2C is non-resistor.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 01, 2008, 02:11:31 AM
Here's a list of some non resistor plugs.

http://store.summitracing.com/egnsearch.asp?Ns=P_SRE_DisplayPrice%7C0&N=700+4294842813+4294891681+4294842811+115&Ntt=spark+plug&Ntk=KeywordSearch&rsview=sku&RC=10
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: livingwaters08 on July 01, 2008, 02:13:42 AM
Boke,
Are these available for most automobile applications? Do you know?  This would simplify things now wouldn't it.  No tunes though.   :(  : (

Livingwaters08
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: livingwaters08 on July 01, 2008, 02:22:29 AM
Ossie,

Have you posted a circuit layout?  I'm trying to  find it.  I'm ready to try this on an engine. 

So, will the cap in the circuit prevent the grounding problem of the inverter?

Livingwaters08
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 01, 2008, 03:15:28 AM
Hi All,

Following are the links to all my important posts so far that contain the circuit diagrams, pictures, construction details and information on the process and what I observe. Please read them all carefully. To do this practically is pretty simple. I am very busy and can't spend much time helping others with building info. So please help each other and I will help when I where I get time to. If you show this information to someone with an electronics background and experience, they will have no problem building and replicating this. So please seek help from whoever if you are having difficulty, even if they don't believe it because once it is working, they will believe indeed.

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.msg108614.html#msg108614

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.msg108731.html#msg108731

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.msg108838.html#msg108838

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.msg108956.html#msg108956

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.msg109072.html#msg109072

Also, please save any gratitude for Luc who stepped out and first showed how he produced the effect in a simple circuit setup and encouraged others to replicate it with this thread.

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 01, 2008, 03:16:15 AM
I reversed polarity on the ignition coil and now it works. Somebody explain that to me.

Also I blew up the diodes, could be because I have the bridge rectifier hooked up to a 110 plug instead of an inverter. I blew up my inverter the other day so I'll wait til tomorrow and get a new one and see what happens.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: livingwaters08 on July 01, 2008, 03:31:42 AM
Bumfuzzled, Put a fuse to protect your inverter.  Fuse or circuit breaker= cheap.  Inverter= expensive.   ;)

Livingwaters08
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 01, 2008, 03:45:33 AM
I blew it up before "I knew what I was doing". That's a joke of course, I still have no clue what I'm doing. lol It has 2 fuses inside of it and neither were blown. Where do I need to put the fuses??
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 01, 2008, 03:48:59 AM
Hi Bumfuzzled,

Because an ignition coil is basically inductor, it will have back emf. So this means the output essentially will be AC. Whether the main HV pulse is on the positive or negative side of the AC wave output will be determined by the circuit driving the primary of the ignition coil. If you look at the circuits I have posted, you will see that this is not consistent and wholey reliant on the overall circuit. So this can be a source of confusion and problem in terms of polarity for those who are trying to come up with their own circuits. I can only suggest that a reverse diode across the primary of the ignition coil will keep the output polarity consistent if that is what you are after.

Ossie
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: TheOne on July 01, 2008, 04:17:44 AM
Someone will start testing it with injector, some test done with water and injector

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BeojLzAlDc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: livingwaters08 on July 01, 2008, 04:35:31 AM
I am not an electronics wiz by any means.   I will try to help though.  Anyone out there wanting to assist, please do.

You would want a 20 amp automotive fuse in line on the 12 volt side of the inverter..  IFYOU ARE HOOKING THIS UP ON A CAR.  ARE YOU?    I'm pretty sure this is where the fuse must be placed.

Good Luck.

Livingwaters08
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: livingwaters08 on July 01, 2008, 04:46:40 AM
Hi Ossie,

I have a question.  Do you have a suggestion for keeping the voltage from running back to the inverter when hooking all of this up on a car??   Other than the diodes which seem not to be doing the trick.  Also, s1r9a9m9 mentioned that the plasma reaction needed to be picked up by around 90%... That is, to drive an engine.  Any ideas?

Thanks for helping!
Livingwaters08
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 01, 2008, 04:55:14 AM
Hi All,

I thought it important to point something out regarding previous work related to this topic. There are many videos and demonstrations and documention of water being burnt and exploded using very high power and powerfull arc discharges. These are brute force devices and setups where in most cases more electrical energy is being put into the device than is being generated by the water combustion.

This is NOT what we are doing and have demonstrated in this thread. The devices and setups we are showing in this thread are using small amounts of electrical energy to cause the combustion of water which releases more energy than what was put in electrically. What is unique in our circuits here, when compared to previous examples on the internet, is that we are utilising the HV spark from an ignition coil as the precursor that allows enough ionisation of the air in the spark gap to conduct the minimum required energy pulse of 100-300 volts through the spark gap and the surrounding moisture near it. This results in the moisture/water exploding and thus releasing the energy contained in it. This process only requires minimal energy pulses in addition to the ignition spark and is very efficient.

We have developed these devices in an attempt to duplicate the work of s1r9a9m9 who has been able to demonstrate that he can run an engine solely on water instead of petrol by using a similar setup which uses the same process here as described. He infact claims to have run his adapted V8 automobile for 30,000 miles at a fuel efficiency rate of 300 miles per gallon of water. Most of us could not believe such claims but now after being able to reproduce the effect of being able to explode water with minimal energy input, it appears that what s1r9a9m9 claims is indeed possible.

So please do not find videos and demonstrations of people burning and exploding water with powerfull arc discharges and assume it is the same thing we are doing here because it is not. The process we are demonstrating here is very efficient to the point that it CAN be adapted to exisiting combustion engines to allow the engine to be run solely on water fed directly through the engine's exisiting fuel system. The adaption would be applied only to the engines existing ignition system.

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: innovation_station on July 01, 2008, 05:01:57 AM
I reversed polarity on the ignition coil and now it works. Somebody explain that to me.

Also I blew up the diodes, could be because I have the bridge rectifier hooked up to a 110 plug instead of an inverter. I blew up my inverter the other day so I'll wait til tomorrow and get a new one and see what happens.

why did it blow up on you???

i know why 

becuse it the RE is returing to a place to where it can not escape to do use full work... and it blows shit up  ;D

put a lead out diode to where it is returning put a cap after it to convert it to hot electricty or leave the cap out and use it the way it is ...

ist
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 01, 2008, 05:03:32 AM
Thanks Ossie, I'll try that tomorrow. Gotta pick up more diodes and inverter, gotta get away from the 110 wall outlet, too many amps for the diodes I guess, I blew up every one of them I had. lol

That's what I was trying to do last week, get the HV to lead the low voltage but had no clue I need that many diodes in series. Glad you came along!! Are those diodes protecting the inverter or do I need to fuse it somewhere like livingwaters said?

I know that plasma arc is very bright, just like looking at an arc weld. I'll have to wear dark glasses when I do that from now on.  :o
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: chrisC on July 01, 2008, 05:04:45 AM


Hi All,

I thought it important to point something out regarding previous work related to this topic. There are many videos and demonstrations and documention of water being burnt and exploded using very high power and powerfull arc discharges. These are brute force devices and setups where in most cases more electrical energy is being put into the device than is being generated by the water combustion.

This is NOT what we are doing and have demonstrated in this thread. The devices and setups we are showing in this thread are using small amounts of electrical energy to cause the combustion of water which releases more energy than what was put in electrically. What is unique in our circuits here, when compared to previous examples on the internet, is that we are utilising the HV spark from an ignition coil as the precursor that allows enough ionisation of the air in the spark gap to conduct the minimum required energy pulse of 100-300 volts through the spark gap and the surrounding moisture near it. This results in the moisture/water exploding and thus releasing the energy contained in it. This process only requires minimal energy pulses in addition to the ignition spark and is very efficient.

We have developed these devices in an attempt to duplicate the work of s1r9a9m9 who has been able to demonstrate that he can run an engine solely on water instead of petrol by using a similar setup which uses the same process here as described. He infact claims to have run his adapted V8 automobile for 30,000 miles at a fuel efficiency rate of 300 miles per gallon of water. Most of us could not believe such claims but now after being able to reproduce the effect of being able to explode water with minimal energy input, it appears that what s1r9a9m9 claims is indeed possible.

So please do not find videos and demonstrations of people burning and exploding water with powerfull arc discharges and assume it is the same thing we are doing here because it is not. The process we are demonstrating here is very efficient to the point that it CAN be adapted to exisiting combustion engines to allow the engine to be run solely on water fed directly through the engine's exisiting fuel system. The adaption would be applied only to the engines existing ignition system.

Regards,

Ossie



Well said Ossie! I read with great interest what Luc had stumbled upon and good people like yourself has been able to replicate and hopefully get us all to the point where the principles are well understood and easy to adapt to any existing gasoline engine. That would be a holy grail for ridding ourselves of the Opec oil greed!

Keep it up.

cheers
chrisC
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 01, 2008, 05:07:20 AM
why did it blow up on you???

i know why 

becuse it the RE is returing to a place to where it can not escape to do use full work... and it blows shit up  ;D

put a lead out diode to where it is returning put a cap after it to convert it to hot electricty or leave the cap out and use it the way it is ...

ist



I figured it was because the wall outlet can put out 15 amps or so before the breaker trips and those diodes cant handle that much so it blew them up. They were pretty hot to the touch right after the blew. I dunno, I don't know electricity that well.  ???
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: innovation_station on July 01, 2008, 05:14:58 AM
im gonna throw togather some kind of unit like what u all are working on here maybe we can come up with a good design as a group

should be real easy with a small engine to get it to work

has any one tryed to burn hho with this style unit??

ist

btw   to be safe do all testing off grid!!!!   espically if you are gonna play with cold electricty b4 the ign coil...  we dont want to back feed to the grid  :o

for those that have not seen my simple vid i did a wile ago...

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3852.0.html  12dv 1 amp  8)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 01, 2008, 06:05:06 AM

Well said Ossie! I read with great interest what Luc had stumbled upon and good people like yourself has been able to replicate and hopefully get us all to the point where the principles are well understood and easy to adapt to any existing gasoline engine. That would be a holy grail for ridding ourselves of the Opec oil greed!

Keep it up.

cheers
chrisC
Hi chrisC, thanks for reading the topic and posting your positive comment.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: geovel56 on July 01, 2008, 10:13:23 AM
Bumfuzzled and the rest of the group,

I really don't think an in-line fuse or circuit breaker will protect the inverter because they do not blow fast enough before the damage is done.  Ossie, input on this???

Aside from rectifying the AC from the inverter to DC, Ossie has 16 - 1N5404 diodes in series.  They are 400V 3 Amp diodes and in series in addition to the 10 (shown in the schematic), not 8 as the schematic says of 1N4007 diodes rated at 1000 volts 1 amp.   There is your protection if the circuit is wired properly.

Is this overkill on the diodes?  Maybe, but I'd rather be safe than sorry.  It also seems to me that 2 to 2.5 amps and 12 V, as shown on Ossie's meters, this system is only drawing 24 to 30 watts to create the plasma arc.  30 watts is nothing, so this circuit is extremely efficient and incredibly simple.  The 300 Watt inverter is actually 10 times the required demand of this simple circuit. 

One thing I did notice was the capacitor is 250 volts which is cutting it a bit close to the 240 volts output of the inverter, but I am by no means an electrical circuit designer... actually far from it... Just an observation though.  In the US, our mains and off the shelf inverters are 120 VAC, so I am still using the 250V capacitor and all seems great!

Also, we don't know what the circuit will draw once it is introduced to a cylinder with compressed water vapor.  Right now, the circuit is only firing in an open air environment.  Will the circuit draw more than it is currently (pardon the pun)?  Maybe, maybe not, but I commend Ossie for taking that into consideration and perhaps the number of diodes isn't overkill.  Either way, better safe than sorry!

Hope this helps!

Regards,
Geo
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Dread on July 01, 2008, 10:20:10 AM
Hi Luc,

How is it going? Any new results from the suggested experiments? I am approaching an investor with this ignition principle to develop a small turbine pulse generator. 

Rgds.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: aether22 on July 01, 2008, 10:51:42 AM
Hi robbie47, thanks for looking and adding your input. You are very correct about the humidity level. The setup of the video was done in a garage and I had the garage door was open, outside was just starting to rain which became a major rain storm just after the video was done, there was a lightning hit less than a 100 feet away  :o, the timing of it all felt so perfect, like a confirmation from Mother Nature. So at the time I was doing the video I did not realize that all that moisture in the air was also helping the spark since you can see I did not need to add water at every spark to make it work.

Luc



Hmmm, I just noticed this thread, it has grown fast.
First point would be that it is very plausible you attracted the lightening strike.

Maybe these questions have been answered in one of the subsequent pages and if so sorry but...
Can you just use 240v mains rather than a 240v inverter?
If so then I can easily replicate this, if not then I probably won't as getting the inverter is sure to be a headache and I know you found in a similar experiment that even the brand/model of inverter mattered!

Also what is with the first image in the thread with the inverter and mains power?  I can't find any text/video to tell me what that one does. (the image below it though seems neatly covered in the video)

If the effect is tied to a given model of inverter then it seems that this is all kinda pointless, you need to be buying a bunch of them and seeing what makes them tick, and make a simplified inverter or circuit that creates the aetheric (or whatever you want to call it) electrical current.

BTW aren't you 110-120v system in Canada? How are you getting 240v inverters?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: aether22 on July 01, 2008, 11:29:12 AM
I have pretty much only read the 1st and last page still.

This thread seems a tad unfocused, there are 2 (or maybe 3) important discoveries Luc seems to have made here.

The most obvious is that he has managed to explode water (at least in part due to burning it seemingly after splitting it) with a pulse from a rather modest capacitor that would contain very limited energy.

However possibly the most important is that he has shown that charging a cap with full wave rectified 240v from a specific transformer is different to 240v full wave rectified from a different inverter (I believe) or from mains.

That is the most solid proof I have seen to date that a aetherized/cold current (or whatever names you want to give it) can charge a capacitor and keep it's aetheric quality.

This discovery could just as well be attacked not from the 'burning hydrogen/exploding water' point of view but from an electroaetheric point of view where we see how to create the kind of current that works works in this device and what other differing properties it may have, chances are this is only one of it's special talents.

One test I would very much like to see Luc do is to check the voltage of his charged cap is to verify that the difference isn't that this specific inverter is charging the cap a little higher than the other things he has tried.

Maybe I would look into getting this model of inverter if he can satisfy that curiosity, so how much does one of these cost then???   Any recommended sources? (I'm in NZ btw)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: send_to_nice on July 01, 2008, 11:57:57 AM
I have pretty much only read the 1st and last page still.

This thread seems a tad unfocused, there are 2 (or maybe 3) important discoveries Luc seems to have made here.
This is something I've been thinking, but being very much a new kid on the block here I haven't said much about it. Something I've been wondering is, at what point does an idea raised through a thread on here need to become a 'project'? As I said, I'm a newcomer to this site so am not sure whether threads ike this come and go all the time. Certainly to me it feels as though there is a huge amount of anticipation around this idea and how feasible it is. Regulars here are pretty clued up and I've certainly noticed a lot of threads where people pick up on fake ideas or inefficient ones very soon. This thread doesn't seem to have aroused such suspicion, so from that can we assume that this is the real deal? I don't know the answer to that, but I'm hoping some of the regulars do.

If it is, I'd suggest we seriously think about putting some more structure into this to make sure we are aiming at a goal and not just playing around with a whole lot of ideas and frying electronics in the process. Luc has shown what can be achieved with a simple circuit and low power, the next step (I believe) is showing that there is a pressure wave generated that could be used to displace a piston. If we can show that, then the next step is probably to try it on a real engine.

What do people think?

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: aether22 on July 01, 2008, 01:02:21 PM
send2, I agree.

While I am personally interested in how this circuit may be generating the kind of conditions for a 'radiant effect', and that is a very important direction, the other question is if he has anything other that a fun pop.

You need quite a bit of power to push down a piston, hundreds of pounds of pressure is developed to push down a piston.
In fact if anyone tells you that implosion can power an engine you know they are either wrong or are not meaning the creation of a partial vacuum as atmospheric pressure is only 16PSI and that's no where near enough to run an engine. (which is not to say that a non-atmospheric implosive force may not be possible)

So anyone who has the effect needs to see if it can create some real pressure, and compare it to gas explosion.

And if expensive inverters are not needed then can Luc please put a cheaper plan in the first post of the thread, I have lots of gear but no inverters.

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: send_to_nice on July 01, 2008, 01:20:41 PM
It shouldn't be hard to prove/disprove the viability of this. All that is needed is some vessel we can attach over the spark plug that will allow us to add the necessary moisture. Then, we make it spark and watch the pressure destroy the vessel. I was initially thinking of a balloon, but this won't allow the water mist to be sprayed. Assuming it did, we shouldn't have any trouble bursting a balloon if the pressure is as high as some are suggesting it is. How about it?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hartiberlin on July 01, 2008, 02:17:52 PM
Youtube User crob227
has simular effect now.
Have alook at this:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKpEXXvIZZ8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWglLC_UEwc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRX89SDHEiM

By the way, great accent and many real good bangs !  ;D

Well at 900 Volts DC be very cautious, as, when you touch
this cap with wet fingers you surely will be dead...!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Koen1 on July 01, 2008, 02:44:26 PM
Probably.
But if you touch the cap with wet fingers,
isn't that sort of natural selection at work? ;) ;D
jk

Anyway:
Go Luc! Go Ossie! W00T! :D ;D

but seriously, this is starting to get really exciting.
I'm actually considering putting my cell experiments on hold for this...
... and digging up that old hydrogen kit motor I had so I can try
it with a running motor... now where did I put that thing?

May I suggest compiling a sort of documentation file or folder in which
Luc and Ossie gather the most usefull and clear posts, explanations,
and circuit drawings, in order to facilitate bringing people up to speed?
The thread is growing so fast that peope only jumping in now first have to
spend 2 days reading the earlier posts before they get to this point.

I posted some stuff myself that turned out to be complete crap just ten
minutes later because I had missed a piece of the developments in the thread.
Apologies for polluting your nice thread Luc. ;)

Oh, and if s1r9a9m9 has his V8 conversion plans online somewhere
that might be interesting :)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: renaud67 on July 01, 2008, 03:02:04 PM
Probably.
But if you touch the cap with wet fingers,
isn't that sort of natural selection at work? ;) ;D
jk

Anyway:
Go Luc! Go Ossie! W00T! :D ;D

but seriously, this is starting to get really exciting.
I'm actually considering putting my cell experiments on hold for this...
... and digging up that old hydrogen kit motor I had so I can try
it with a running motor... now where did I put that thing?

May I suggest compiling a sort of documentation file or folder in which
Luc and Ossie gather the most usefull and clear posts, explanations,
and circuit drawings, in order to facilitate bringing people up to speed?
The thread is growing so fast that peope only jumping in now first have to
spend 2 days reading the earlier posts before they get to this point.

I posted some stuff myself that turned out to be complete crap just ten
minutes later because I had missed a piece of the developments in the thread.
Apologies for polluting your nice thread Luc. ;)

Oh, and if s1r9a9m9 has his V8 conversion plans online somewhere
that might be interesting :)
Great idae,
i've just ordered some parts of the Ossie "simple" experiment (coil, diode ... xeon ...)
a pdf file would be very useful for newbee like me ! ;)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: DrStiffler on July 01, 2008, 03:28:32 PM
send2, I agree.

While I am personally interested in how this circuit may be generating the kind of conditions for a 'radiant effect', and that is a very important direction, the other question is if he has anything other that a fun pop.

You need quite a bit of power to push down a piston, hundreds of pounds of pressure is developed to push down a piston.
In fact if anyone tells you that implosion can power an engine you know they are either wrong or are not meaning the creation of a partial vacuum as atmospheric pressure is only 16PSI and that's no where near enough to run an engine. (which is not to say that a non-atmospheric implosive force may not be possible)

So anyone who has the effect needs to see if it can create some real pressure, and compare it to gas explosion.

And if expensive inverters are not needed then can Luc please put a cheaper plan in the first post of the thread, I have lots of gear but no inverters.


@aether22, @gotoluc

I think the question of is this energy an incursion of a different form can be put to bed fairly fast. From what I have seen in the circuits they are all floating, no physical connection to ground?

If this is in some way pulling a form of energy from the lattice, it can be stopped by the addition of an earth ground on the spark side at some point. Just connect your assumed common on the spark side or one side of the cap to ground. This will not affect the working of the circuit but will remove the possibility of unknown energy (my opinion only) from taking part. You should see a decrease in the result if you are indeed absorbing anomalous energy.

Measuring the cap voltage if this is indeed anomalous will not show anything unexpected. The external energy will not show up on current day instrumentation.

Here is what I did. I connected a SEC15-3 to charge a 100uf 330V cap and discharged the cap via 135V SIDAC into the primary of a 12KV neon sign transformer and the transformer secondary connected to a spark plug. All was driven by 12LA battery. I did observe a similar reaction, yet my first feeling is that it is a localized reaction to a few water molecules. This would say to me that in order to get much energy from the reaction one would need to excite and split large numbers of molecules. I am not certain at this time if the approach wll do that in a useful way.

I do have the answer to my question above, but it is necessary that those that have test circuits try this for themselves, the information could prove valuable.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: DrStiffler on July 01, 2008, 04:42:50 PM
@All
I just could not walk away without trying something else. I was interested in the usage of the series Xenon and wondered what a Xenon plasma would do and not use the pulse flashing.

Now I admit I have changed things a little, but if you want a shock wave here is how to get it. In a cylinder with a movable piston, fill the cylinder 1/2 full of water with the piston just under the surface, call it a down stroke position. With two SS wires I electrolyze some of the water, the gas stays in the water with much going against the piston. Fire your spark and all hell breaks free. Not only does the gas explode but it appears to cause a secondary reaction that splits off additional that is consumed.

Granted this does not sound good for running a conventional engine, but hey, new engine a water engine. You do not even need oil in the crankcase as water is a fine lube. Now for the best part, the plasma and or the flash can be used to preheat the water and it reacts faster and with more force.

So gentleman maybe its time to go to the lathe and milling machine, this could work, assuming you have a water supply. Oh and I was doing this on 20V@50ma, not bad.

The jury of course is still out on if this is in any way connected to some other form of trigger energy, heck if we can split water and get it to chain react in some way, why not.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 01, 2008, 06:08:57 PM
@All
I just could not walk away without trying something else. I was interested in the usage of the series Xenon and wondered what a Xenon plasma would do and not use the pulse flashing.

Now I admit I have changed things a little, but if you want a shock wave here is how to get it. In a cylinder with a movable piston, fill the cylinder 1/2 full of water with the piston just under the surface, call it a down stroke position. With two SS wires I electrolyze some of the water, the gas stays in the water with much going against the piston. Fire your spark and all hell breaks free. Not only does the gas explode but it appears to cause a secondary reaction that splits off additional that is consumed.

Granted this does not sound good for running a conventional engine, but hey, new engine a water engine. You do not even need oil in the crankcase as water is a fine lube. Now for the best part, the plasma and or the flash can be used to preheat the water and it reacts faster and with more force.

So gentleman maybe its time to go to the lathe and milling machine, this could work, assuming you have a water supply. Oh and I was doing this on 20V@50ma, not bad.

The jury of course is still out on if this is in any way connected to some other form of trigger energy, heck if we can split water and get it to chain react in some way, why not.

DrStiffler

Just  trying to ake sure that I understand  what you are saying



Your previous  post   about connecting a  ground to me seemed to be  about  another  form of energy  being  created in another  part of the circuit  .

Now it looks like    you are saying that it there is OU here it is  in the spark .
 Is it possible that the  guys that  wrote the  law of  thermodynamics  forgot  to  measure  the  energy created  by a spark in water ? 
Or did  they just assume that   the spark  would follow their  law ?

What is  your opinion on this ......Is the spark following  the law ?

gary
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ramset on July 01, 2008, 06:46:35 PM
All have collected all the parts to determine just how much power the standard ICE puts out in one combustion  building this now using all parts from a 350 fuel injected motor installing into high pressure tank with pop off valve [at first] first tests with gas   next with LUC /OSSIE/s19  circuit[ haven't built that yet will once the test tank is working   Chet
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: DrStiffler on July 01, 2008, 07:14:53 PM
DrStiffler

Just  trying to ake sure that I understand  what you are saying



Your previous  post   about connecting a  ground to me seemed to be  about  another  form of energy  being  created in another  part of the circuit  .

Now it looks like    you are saying that it there is OU here it is  in the spark .
 Is it possible that the  guys that  wrote the  law of  thermodynamics  forgot  to  measure  the  energy created  by a spark in water ? 
Or did  they just assume that   the spark  would follow their  law ?

What is  your opinion on this ......Is the spark following  the law ?

gary
@resonanceman
I think you need to read what I said and not what you think could be between the lines. I never mentioned OU or any violation of LoT, even though LoT is a set of misunderstandings.

Now I have adequate supporting experiments to show that circuits (at least the ones I work with) will cease to cohere energy if any part of the circuit is connected to ground.

If you feel Luc's circuit is doing an intake of some ethereal energy them do indeed try my suggestion. If you end up with apparent additional energy with the ground, then I am wrong, yet I would highly question ground as a source of energy in this context.

Again when I say secondary, additional or in addition to, that in no way can be construed as saying OU or LoT violation.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: aether22 on July 01, 2008, 09:14:53 PM
Really it is a philosophical issue as to if energy in such experiments is created in violation of the first law or merely released from some unmonitored (and vast) form of energy present everywhere.

Either way they can work and the question in this case is only if there is more energy we are getting out than we are intentionally putting in.

No one can prove that energy can't be created or destroyed under any circumstance, to do so would require absolute knowledge of everything there is and know that there is nothing outside your knowledge, that may even be a big ask for a God.

At the same time it is impossible to prove that energy can be created, it could always be that energy is disappearing from some vast unseen storehouse at the same rate it is appearing in a device.

Neither side can ever possibly prove it either way to an absolute certainty.

What is not up for debate even by the most skeptical is that it is possible for a device to output energy while putting either no or less energy into it in any deliberate form.

So is this more energy out that in? Based on 9991mars (s1r9a9m9) and the good Doctors test it would seem so.
Now the question becomes if there is anything beyond normal amps and volts required to generate the effect, Luc believes/believed so but seemingly there are a wide range of possible circuits that can create the effect.
That is an important question to answer.

Clearly there needs to be a simple circuit that anyone cab build without need for an inverter, and a circuit fit for putting into an auto.
One thought I have is that it is a good idea to try this first in an engine with gas and then slowly add water to the mix increasing the mix until it is all or mostly all water. (whatever works)
Maybe some heat from burnt fuel would help.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: atlantex on July 01, 2008, 09:28:13 PM
Quote
Maybe some heat from burnt fuel would help.

Heat should due to the friction of the cylinder absolutely no problem, there will be still enough heat generated to warm up the whole car, also in the winter.

The fact of a cold reaction is phenomenal because so we don't have to fear to damage the engine, since a wrong spark plug can act like a burner to the cylinder...


atlantex
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: exxcomm0n on July 01, 2008, 11:06:18 PM
The posted results have shown a great effect with liquid water and the idea that the finer the mist, the better the reaction.

I was trying to envision the pump/injector combination that would allow the finest of mists (like the gasoline used today should be perhaps?)

Then I started thinking physical state rather than mechanical means.

Anyone thought of trying steam?

Just a musing.

:D

@ Stephan

Thanks for seconding the crob227 study I mentioned earlier. I find his experimentation very exciting and think he might like to be invited to OU.

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 01, 2008, 11:20:43 PM


Either way they can work and the question in this case is only if there is more energy we are getting out than we are intentionally putting in.


Aether

It seems to me that   our opinions of  if there is more energy coming  in or going out  depends more of our  definition of energy anything else .

I have been told that   if a magnet   holds  a weight   for an extended time no  work is done .   because  there is  no movement and no  energy input .        If  an electro magnet is used to hold the same weight work IS done . 
This  seems really  foolish to me .



This  thread  is about  attempting to replicate  circuit  of S1r9 
If  it has  any  " extra " energy  doesn't really matter  at this point .

I think  the only  questions  we need to think about are does it work ?
And can it be improved .



Quote
Clearly there needs to be a simple circuit that anyone cab build without need for an inverter, and a circuit fit for putting into an auto.

I have been thinking of a 12 V system  today .
I  still have some work to do on it .
The problem is  how  to  protect the  low  volt side  with out  using  REALLY expensive diodes .


Quote
One thought I have is that it is a good idea to try this first in an engine with gas and then slowly add water to the mix increasing the mix until it is all or mostly all water. (whatever works)
Maybe some heat from burnt fuel would help.


The whole  system  is  different .      I don't think  you can mix apples  and oranges in the same engine .


gary
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Dread on July 02, 2008, 12:32:19 AM
...Sure you can. It's called an App-Or-ittion.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: tishatang on July 02, 2008, 04:21:58 AM
@All

According to Dr. Stiffler, water is a good lube.  So, maybe we don't have to mix in oil in a two-stroke engine?
I have an old 50cc 2-cycle Honda motor scooter.  The engine is electric start with auto injected oil system.  If I try to run it on water, should I leave the oil reservoir dry or add soluble oil?  Regular oil won't mix with water.  Soluble oil may change the reaction?  Any suggestions?

Tishatang
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 02, 2008, 04:39:25 AM
DrStiffler,

It would be wonderful if a person such as yourself could assist and be involved with the practical developments of the process and effects as described in this thread. For anyone who, understandably, has concerns as to the validity of the premise that the energy output exceeds the electrical energy input in this process, then I must strongly urge them to read and study a paper that was previously mentioned a few posts ago and was found and shown to me by my good friend Ben, who has now done some good research on this topic.

The paper was published by Cambridge University Press and was written by Peter Graneau from Northeastern University Boston USA and Neal Graneau from Oxford University UK. The title of the paper is, "Arc-liberated chemical energy exceeds electrical input energy". It is an excellent paper that fully supports and describes what we have seen in the basic and simple experiments described in this thread. Ben found the paper here as follows:

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/WaterFuel1978/files/

Stephan has also uploaded the paper here:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=get93

The paper clearly explains that the output energy is NOT from any H2O dissassociation and ignition process but simply an electrochemical process where the hydrogen bonds of the H2O molecule, that causes water to remain in a liquid state, are broken by an electric plasma pulse which converts the water into a dense fog state. A fog state is where the H2O molecules are not bonded with each other to form a liquid state but are unbonded and densely dispersed with air to form a fog.

Quotes: "Experimental observations leave little doubt that internal water energy is being liberated by the sudden electrodynamic conversion of about one-third of the water into dense fog", "The loss of intermolecular bond energy in the conversion from liquid to fog must be the source of the explosion energy", "This bond energy is said to be equal to the latent heat of evaporation, and therefore could contribute up to 2200 J g^-1."

So there is already some good academic science behind what we are seeing in this process. I have no doubt that the effects we have seen, as well as other effects yet to be discovered which you yourself have found, can be used and utilised to build a working engine or motor that is powered solely by pure water. Regardless if the result turns out to be a completely new design and form of engine or a simple retofit to existing engines, the goal in the end is the same although the later would have a more rapid impact in terms of the application of the technology.

So I am very encouraged and pleased by your interest in this thread and some of the basic tests you have already done to see for yourself if there is anything real in the claims made. I hope that more important and serious researchers, like yourself, can come together to openly assist and work on what has been described in this thread for the benefit of all.

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 02, 2008, 04:50:41 AM
Blew up a brand spankin' new inverter tonight!! Don't know why but I hooked it up to the battery and to the rectifier, turned it on and all was fine. I didn't have the neg side of the HV hooked up but as soon as I hooked the pos side up to the battery the inverter blew. Could it be because I have to switch polarity on the IC?? Anyway, hooked back up to the wall outlet and used 2 old heater elements I had laying around as resistors in the low voltage side and it worked without blowing the diodes this time, I'm using 8 5408 diodes. I can definitely tell the arc gets bigger when water is introduced. I'm gonna try some steam tomorrow afternoon and see what happens. If I get good results I might post a vid. This is cool! lol
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 02, 2008, 05:03:44 AM
Bumfuzzled and All,

If you are going to use inverters as your power supply please avoid using new and modern inverters that are all HF semiconductor based and are effectively the reverse of a switch mode power supply and does not have a large standard transformer in it. These modern inverters, because they are all semconductor based, will be very sensitive to any reverse HV spikes and you will blow the semiconductors in them quite easily. The best inverters to use are the older type that are very heavy because they have a large transformer in them. They work in reverse to a normal step down mains transformer and use transistors to oscillate at 50-60Hz the 12V side of the trnasformer. The 110-240V side is just the transformer's output winding. So these inverters are much more tolerent to HV spikes as the transistor's are protected by the transformers internal winding insulation, although even this does have a limit.

I do NOT recomend people use inverters unless they are either qualified or experienced in working with mains power voltages as the output of the inverter is lethal and the same as your house mains power point.

Regards,

Ossie
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: livingwaters08 on July 02, 2008, 05:35:40 AM
Group,
I don't want to muddy the waters here, but this may help when connecting all of this to an engine.  Years ago automobiles were positive ground.  My late grandfather's 1932 Ford is an example of this.

Could this arrangement help the grounding problem of the inverter in the circuit ?  I just felt compelled  to mention this.  I don't know how complicated it would be to convert a modern automobile over to positive ground, or even if this would be feasible.

Hope this information helps in some small way. ;)

Livingwaters08
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: tinu on July 02, 2008, 07:09:32 AM
...
What is not up for debate even by the most skeptical is that it is possible for a device to output energy while putting either no or less energy into it in any deliberate form.

So is this more energy out that in?
...

Well, I strongly challenge that!
(Nothing personal here; the issue is for group ? it just happened I found your post)

Shortly: much excitement on the paper already published (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=get93) at a first reading. Many thanks to Ben and Stefan for pointing to it and for making it available. I said WOW and put it away for careful study. Several ours later, a big BUT appeared: on page 125, in Table 1, E12 is grossly miscomputed, by a factor of 100. A mass Mg of about 60g which is propelled at a height of 0.5m needs only 0.3J and NOT 30J. All E12 are miscomputed as so are Eout/Ein ratios. E12 is the heart of the whole paper (as well as of other papers published earlier); it makes me wonder what happens here, as such a mistake is not to be made by a scientist?

In conclusion: Graneau and Graneau clearly prove that about 1% or less of initial energy (that is 0.3J out of 30J or so) goes into studied phenomena and produces a loud bang. If they are correct, there is no useful energy in that bang and no motor is possible, no matter how spectacular the effect is. Not to mention that overunity and extra-energy would be out of question and the whole paper goes down the drain and a large part of the reputation of the parties involved?

Regardless of the above, I was about to raise the issue of real power out. But as an ?armchair scientist? that never seen an electron nor had changed its filters and quarks in a while now, I better refrain myself?

Any thoughts?
Cheers,
Tinu
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 02, 2008, 07:24:04 AM
@All
I just could not walk away without trying something else. I was interested in the usage of the series Xenon and wondered what a Xenon plasma would do and not use the pulse flashing.

Now I admit I have changed things a little, but if you want a shock wave here is how to get it. In a cylinder with a movable piston, fill the cylinder 1/2 full of water with the piston just under the surface, call it a down stroke position. With two SS wires I electrolyze some of the water, the gas stays in the water with much going against the piston. Fire your spark and all hell breaks free. Not only does the gas explode but it appears to cause a secondary reaction that splits off additional that is consumed.

Granted this does not sound good for running a conventional engine, but hey, new engine a water engine. You do not even need oil in the crankcase as water is a fine lube. Now for the best part, the plasma and or the flash can be used to preheat the water and it reacts faster and with more force.

So gentleman maybe its time to go to the lathe and milling machine, this could work, assuming you have a water supply. Oh and I was doing this on 20V@50ma, not bad.

The jury of course is still out on if this is in any way connected to some other form of trigger energy, heck if we can split water and get it to chain react in some way, why not.

Hi Dr. Stiffler, that sounds amazing. Looking forward to a video ;D

At everyone, today is Canada day and I worked all day on the circuit and found something new. The flash of the spark is so bright that I cannot look at it anymore. You cannot see this too much in the video but look at the wood board the spark plug is on, it turns blue. Also look at the last frames and you will see the flame come out of the plug over one inch.

Please look at the new video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPVs_UJ-XRU

S1R has told me that when I have the kind of spark he has I would need sun glasses to look at it. I need to do more tests before I can say if this is the real thing.

Please stay tuned for updates.

Luc

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: greendoor on July 02, 2008, 07:30:04 AM
There are so many well documented stories of invertors running cars on water alone.  Who cares why it works - let's stick to experimental findings, instead of armchair bollocks.

The established sciences are bought and paid for with big oil money.  The facts are changed to suit the higher agenda - and no "scientist" really has any say in the matter.

Thought for your consideration: To protect yourself & your inverter - why not use an isolation transformer.  You can buy transformers that convert 110 to 220 or vice versa.  These could provide a nice boost as well as isolation. 

I have a big question mark at this time: is square wave really necessary?  Ignore my ignorant rantings earlier - i've read too much Beardon and not done enought experimenting.  If what Ossie is saying is correct - it should not matter 1% how we charge the capicitor ... DC is DC - is that correct?  Or does it have to be pulsed?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: aether22 on July 02, 2008, 07:33:26 AM
Well, I strongly challenge that!


You strongly challenge what? My question?

BTW as to there being more out than in I challenge your argument, first s1r9a9m9 showed it can power a car and so if as it seems this is successful creation of the effect then it seemingly should be assuming the origonal claim or myers claim are genuine.
But also please note the hole made in the half inch thick Aluminium, that shows there is tremendous power.

It is also worth noting that an experimenter reported to Keelynet that he had a transducer putting sound into water and at somewhere in range of the frequency several water OU inventors have used the water shot up leaving a hole in the ceiling.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: greendoor on July 02, 2008, 07:58:17 AM
Idea:  why not use the explosion to create compressed air, and then run engines on compressed air?  This might be easier to get off the ground and running.  If we build a pressure vessel with a spark plug, pressure sensor and pressure relief valve - we could fire the spark as often as need to maintain pressure. 

Danger! Only qualified people should try to build a pressure vessel - it could be a lethal bomb. 

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 02, 2008, 08:13:20 AM
Hi Dr. Stiffler, that sounds amazing. Looking forward to a video ;D

At everyone, today is Canada day and I worked all day on the circuit and found something new. The flash of the spark is so bright that I cannot look at it anymore. You cannot see this too much in the video but look at the wood board the spark plug is on, it turns blue. Also look at the last frames and you will see the flame come out of the plug over one inch.

Please look at the new video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thV6QgXHz7A

S1R has told me that when I have the kind of spark he has I would need sun glasses to look at it. I need to do more tests before I can say if this is the real thing.

Please stay tuned for updates.

Luc

Hi Luc,

Yes, SR1 said the same thing to me too. I can tell you that on the device I showed using a 20Hz sig gen with, if I used a 100uf capacitor instead of a 10uf capacitor, the discharges on the spark plug were so large, bright and continuous that they effectively blew the water spray away from the plasma before it could make contact and no explosions were observed. This makes sense. This is why such higher power tests are no good out in the open. But in the confines of a pressurised cylinder, by forcing a larger amount of water and moisture into the plasma with pressure, I expect we should get a much larger explosive result. And if there is any chain reactive effect in the explosion when pressurised, this should cause a great deal, if not all of the moisture in the cylinder to explode and we should see an exponential increase in output power. A number of us are now working on this....

Regards,

Ossie




Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: greendoor on July 02, 2008, 08:25:46 AM
It would seem the energy available is basically the Latent Heat of Evaporation as liquid water converts to vapour.  The latent heat of water is known to be 2260 Joules per gram.  1 Joule is 1 Watt per second.  Therefore exploding 1 litre (1 kg) of water into vapour has the maximum potential to supply 2,260,000 Watts for 1 second =   627 Watts for 1 hour. 

1 horsepower = 746 Watts. 

Hopefully we could get an efficiency in the range of 33%.  So it would appear that we could get some useful power out of this - but it would probably chew through the water.  Although that disagrees with the anecdotal evidence that water requirement is much less.

Or maybe i'm completely wrong.  Just trying to get a conservative guess for the sceptics.

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 02, 2008, 08:54:55 AM
Hi Luc,

Yes, SR1 said the same thing to me too. I can tell you that on the device I showed using a 20Hz sig gen with, if I used a 100uf capacitor instead of a 10uf capacitor, the discharges on the spark plug were so large, bright and continuous that they effectively blew the water spray away from the plasma before it could make contact and no explosions were observed. This makes sense. This is why such higher power tests are no good out in the open. But in the confines of a pressurised cylinder, by forcing a larger amount of water and moisture into the plasma with pressure, I expect we should get a much larger explosive result. And if there is any chain reactive effect in the explosion when pressurised, this should cause a great deal, if not all of the moisture in the cylinder to explode and we should see an exponential increase in output power. A number of us are now working on this....

Regards,

Ossie

Hi Ossie, thanks for your reply. I must tell you that I have a very different circuit to do this now.  I am using only one 1uf capacitor to do this at around 110 volts input and no inverter. I have a variac going though a 1 to 1 Toroid which I use as an isolation transformer which goes to the FWBR to feed the new circuit.

So now I know for sure that it is not something special in the inverter that will give the effect.

Can you test your setup with only 1uf at 110 volts and see if you get flashes that are too bright to look at and you can spray as much water as you want and it keeps working?

Let me know please.

Tomorrow I'll see if I can measure the current draw.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 02, 2008, 09:22:11 AM
Hi Ossie, thanks for your reply. I must tell you that I have a very different circuit to do this now.  I am using only one 1uf capacitor to do this at around 110 volts input and no inverter. I have a variac going though a 1 to 1 Toroid which I use as an isolation transformer which goes to the FWBR to feed the new circuit.

So now I know for sure that it is not something special in the inverter that will give the effect.

Can you test your setup with only 1uf at 110 volts and see if you get flashes that are too bright to look at and you can spray as much water as you want and it keeps working?

Let me know please.

Tomorrow I'll see if I can measure the current draw.

Luc


Hi Luc,

If you are using 110V from the wall and your 1:1 toroid transformer is big enough, all you are seeing is a standard arc discharge as that in an arc welder. The ignition spark will simply be providing the ionisation for the arc to start. Just as in arc welders that have a HF spark start so that you don't need to touch the electrode and risk sticking to get the arc going. So you will find that your input energy will be significant. That is not to say that this won't be effective to test on an engine as I think it might be a good and simple test rig to prove that you can fire an engine with water in the cylinder. But I don't think it would be an efficient way to get an engine running on water in a stand alone setup. For this we need to get the electrical energy input down.

I have also gotten such an bright arc effect like an arc welder by using my simple security strobe setup/circuit and connecting 5 or 6 12V lead acid batteries in series with a large HV diode (diodes) across the spark plug. Yes the spark plug will glow red and perish and it will use heaps of input energy and be nothing more than a brute force device.

Regards,

Ossie
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: aether22 on July 02, 2008, 09:31:08 AM
Excellent, so now we have simply an isolation transformer and and a tiny tiny cap.

Since spark plugs are also not needed it really is a very easy experiment to perform.

And even an autoignition coil is not needed because seemingly whatever is the most expedient HV generator, a MOT (treated carefully for the dangerous piece is equipment is clearly is) will seemingly do fine.

And we see that it can be done in anything from humid air to drenched or even under water.

Seems to me it is now only an issue of how much mechanical power can be gained from the explosion and since that already seems decently established it is figuring out how best to apply it to an engine.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: rednael on July 02, 2008, 09:42:57 AM
Hi callanan and Luc,
First of all congratulation and thank you for your so much important discovery.
Can you please callanan give us a description of how the cricuit operates (the one with the sin generator).. why is the use of the xenon light. Is it acting like a switch ? I am having trouble imagining how is works.

Thank you
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 02, 2008, 09:54:34 AM
Hi Luc,

If you are using 110V from the wall and your 1:1 toroid transformer is big enough, all you are seeing is a standard arc discharge as that in an arc welder. The ignition spark will simply be providing the ionisation for the arc to start. Just as in arc welders that have a HF spark start so that you don't need to touch the electrode and risk sticking to get the arc going. So you will find that your input energy will be significant. That is not to say that this won't be effective to test on an engine as I think it might be a good and simple test rig to prove that you can fire an engine with water in the cylinder. But I don't think it would be an efficient way to get an engine running on water in a stand alone setup. For this we need to get the electrical energy input down.

I have also gotten such an bright arc effect like an arc welder by using my simple security strobe setup/circuit and connecting 5 or 6 12V lead acid batteries in series with a large HV diode (diodes) across the spark plug. Yes the spark plug will glow red and perish and it will use heaps of input energy and be nothing more than a brute force device.

Regards,

Ossie

Thanks Ossie, those are all very good points :D I'll look into all this tomorrow :'( .. well tommorow is now LOL ;D...it's 3:50 am here now.

Later, got to catch some sleep.

Luc

Added: I'll take the video down for now until I get to the bottom of this.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: greendoor on July 02, 2008, 10:36:24 AM
The Graneau report indicates that it's the "Ampere force or Ampere Tension" that causes the explosion.  Is that just a way of saying that it's Current/Amps that does it?  If so - is a high voltage brute force counterproductive? 

A 12V lead acid battery can deliver massive amps with a dead short - way more than an inverter. 

Has anybody tried connecting the battery directly to the spark plug via diodes?  Nothing could possibly flow until there was a plasma spark bridging the gap? 

If the higher volts aren't actually required, it would simply be wasting Watts - if Amps are all that matter (once the plasma bridge is formed). 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: greendoor on July 02, 2008, 10:59:03 AM
Sorry if this is too far OT ... seems to me the main requirement is high volts (>20KV) to establish the spark, and then high amps to bust the water into vapor.  The goal is to keep the power consumption down.

I'm wondering if the high voltage generators used for air ionisers could be used?  From memory these are a diode voltage multiplier system.  Don't old TV's use some high voltage system? 

If the capacitor was switch (charged, then discharged) then should it matter how it was charged?  And won't the total power consumption of the discharge be limited by the size of th capacitor?  Just trying to rule out the objection that using AC mains power is somehow flawed.  I don't see why it can't be used - just as long as the power consumption was limited.

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 02, 2008, 11:33:32 AM
The Graneau report indicates that it's the "Ampere force or Ampere Tension" that causes the explosion.  Is that just a way of saying that it's Current/Amps that does it?  If so - is a high voltage brute force counterproductive? 

A 12V lead acid battery can deliver massive amps with a dead short - way more than an inverter. 

Has anybody tried connecting the battery directly to the spark plug via diodes?  Nothing could possibly flow until there was a plasma spark bridging the gap? 

If the higher volts aren't actually required, it would simply be wasting Watts - if Amps are all that matter (once the plasma bridge is formed). 

Hi greendoor,

It is quite correct that you only need amps. But then the question of at what voltage the amps needs to be applied is purely determined by the voltage across the spark plug gap when hit by the ionising HV pulse of the ignition coil. The voltage from your battery or inverter or other power supply that is to provide the amps needs to be higher than the voltage across the ionised spark plug gap for the energy to flow into the ionised gap and produce the plasma.

The voltage of the ionised spark gap is determined by a number of factors. In particular is the spark gap distance, as well as the conductivity of the air in which moisture plays a role and finally there is the voltage and current coming from the ignition coil/pulse.

In practice I have found that by reducing the spark gap to as small as about .3 mm I can get the plasma to occur with applied voltages as low as 24 volts. But a gap so small is not too functional and is prone to clogging and shorting. A good size gap needs at least 90-100 volts applied to the spark gap to produce the plasma.

In regard to the power required. A continuous DC source will only waste input energy if one is to take advantage and increase the overall efficiency of the process. Increasing the efficiency must be done by altering the time that the minimum required energy to produce the plasma and explode the required amount of water is applied. This must be done with a DC pulse discharge for the minimum time period required. Typically a capacitor discharge performs this purpose well.

In regard to the output energy from the exploding water, if we were to make a comparative analysis, with the assumption that the exploding water process yields more output energy than the electrical energy put into the process, with a petrol explosion that is also ignited by the same spark we would find that the total output energy is not caused by the localised process of the ignition spark igniting the petrol, but we would find that it is the chain reaction in the petrol gas where each igniting gas molecule releases more energy that ignites the next molecule, and so on until all or most of the petrol gas has been ignited. If we apply this same analysis to water we would also find that if the exploding water indeed produced more energy than what was required to ignite it, then we may also assume that a chain reaction will take place where the water molecules will continue to ignite themselves until most or all have been ignited. But the water needs to be under the right pressurised conditions in the ignition cavity, just like the petrol gas is under the right conditions in the cylinder of a combustion engine.

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: aether22 on July 02, 2008, 12:07:19 PM
There is an advantage to discharging a coil as opposed to straight inverter output or energy from a cap, the coil as used by s1r will have a high or low a voltage as required, if the resistance is low it will put more amps over a longer period of time, if it is high it will generate a higher voltage.

Of course using a collapsing field from a coil is also somewhat tricky to get just right.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 02, 2008, 12:13:36 PM
Hi callanan and Luc,
First of all congratulation and thank you for your so much important discovery.
Can you please callanan give us a description of how the cricuit operates (the one with the sin generator).. why is the use of the xenon light. Is it acting like a switch ? I am having trouble imagining how is works.

Thank you

Hi rednael,

You are correct. The xenon tube is only acting as a switch to discharge the 14uf, 350V capacitor inside the strobe light circuit. In regard to the operation of the circuits I have posted, please read through this thread from the beginning as I have describe most things about them in my previous posts. Here is a summary of some of my posts in chronological order.

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.msg108614.html#msg108614
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.msg108731.html#msg108731
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.msg108838.html#msg108838
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.msg108956.html#msg108956
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.msg109072.html#msg109072
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.msg109229.html#msg109229
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.msg109420.html#msg109420
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.msg109475.html#msg109475

Regards,

Ossie
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: greendoor on July 02, 2008, 12:54:36 PM
I think there are some big questions and big assumptions here.  Have we have ruled out the dissassociation of water into H & O?  Is it agreed that this is a lower temperature effect, being the liberating of latent heat between the liquid & vapour phases of water? 

We are assuming this behaves remotely like conventional petrol or gas combusion engines.  Will a higher compression ratio help or hinder? 

I'm guessing this effect is the working principle of lightening & thunder.  Lightening is known to be plasma discharge.  AFAIK, lightening doesn't need compressed air to work.  In weather terms, aren't storms the result of a low pressure region?  Maybe very low compression engines will be better than high compression? Less wasted power?  Storm clouds tend to be very tall, dense clouds.  I've tended to assume that lightening happens when there is sufficient water "shorting out" the potential difference in the atmosphere. 

Is liquid water better than a mist?

A small percentage of soluble oil might be beneficial mainly to stop rusting being a show stopper.  In time, I expect new engine designs will optimise this process.  Maybe if this is fairly low temp, we could use nylon piston rings or other plastic parts.

Maybe a steam engine type design is the way forward ...

Only experiments will find this out.   
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: k4zep on July 02, 2008, 01:58:53 PM
@All
I just could not walk away without trying something else. I was interested in the usage of the series Xenon and wondered what a Xenon plasma would do and not use the pulse flashing.

Now I admit I have changed things a little, but if you want a shock wave here is how to get it. In a cylinder with a movable piston, fill the cylinder 1/2 full of water with the piston just under the surface, call it a down stroke position. With two SS wires I electrolyze some of the water, the gas stays in the water with much going against the piston. Fire your spark and all hell breaks free. Not only does the gas explode but it appears to cause a secondary reaction that splits off additional that is consumed.
Granted this does not sound good for running a conventional engine, but hey, new engine a water engine. You do not even need oil in the crankcase as water is a fine lube. Now for the best part, the plasma and or the flash can be used to preheat the water and it reacts faster and with more force.

So gentleman maybe its time to go to the lathe and milling machine, this could work, assuming you have a water supply. Oh and I was doing this on 20V@50ma, not bad.

The jury of course is still out on if this is in any way connected to some other form of trigger energy, heck if we can split water and get it to chain react in some way, why not.

Good Morning Dr. Stiffler,

Your discovery of using  a suspended gas in the water and then a plasma pulse setting off the whole mess is a whole new take on this process.  Also, if the piston/cylinder was full at the start of the power pulse, essentially a zero displacement engine due to the incompressibility of the water and then "POW"...as you say all "hell would break loose" as that water/mixture has to go somewhere!

Most excellent
Ben
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Carbide_Tipped on July 02, 2008, 03:16:18 PM
Is it agreed that this is a lower temperature effect, being the liberating of latent heat between the liquid & vapour phases of water? 

Yep, Instant change of state with HV and capitalizing on the latent heat.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: retrod on July 02, 2008, 03:41:51 PM
@all, I found this link to a patent for a "Plasma Arc Ignition System" designed in 1993. It describes the concept of a combined high voltage, high current system. Although this was designed for gasoline there are some parallels to the work being done here. The diagrams even suggest some spark plug designs that may work best with a plasma arc. I wonder if it's inventor ever thought to try the system with water?

Click on 'Documents' to view the 45 page pdf

http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/wo.jsp?IA=CA1992000510&DISPLAY=DOCS

RD
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: jibbguy on July 02, 2008, 04:02:19 PM
If millions of Joules of energy were expended by water evaporating on the surface of the ocean or a lake on a hot sunny day; wouldn't the surface be turned into a raging firestorm.. Or at least boiling? Some things about that theory are sounding odd.

Nor am i convinced that the effect the Dr.'s Graneau describe isn't disassociation anyway: How can they be sure that the energy doesn't come from the cracking of the molecule and subsequent implosion or explosion... With the result being near-instantaneous reformation back into water vapor? The observed effects might be exactly the same as what they report.

And "spectacular effects" do translate to significant energy being expended.... You cannot have them "for free". Something moves the air violently to make the noise, something causes the elongated flames to occur.

Not saying that the theory is "wrong", but it doesn't seem to be convincing for this instance, imo.

One thing is for sure: Mainstream science has yet a lot to learn about the real properties of water.

Maybe they will be shown something from all this  ;)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: starcruiser on July 02, 2008, 04:04:39 PM
From the paper from Graneau, he mentions that a fog of water vapor can become explosive, I am thinking that this is the key in combination with the plasma arc. Thus we would need to create a mist of water then hit it with a discharge to really get the full effect. a closed chamber will be required to contain the mist and use an injector or other similar device to spray the water into the combustion chamber wouldn't you think?

The other method that comes to mind is to hit the water two or more times in quick succession, one to create the fog and the other to ignite it.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: DrStiffler on July 02, 2008, 04:16:57 PM
@gotoluc

You MUST get Moderator authority so you can delete the 'crapsters' else this will just be another multi-page joke that goes no-where.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 02, 2008, 04:38:36 PM
@gotoluc

You MUST get Moderator authority so you can delete the 'crapsters' else this will just be another multi-page joke that goes no-where.

Yes Dr. Stiffler, you are correct!... I did ask Stefan but he has not done that wet. I also need to make changes to the first page and I cannot do anything here. We may need to move to another site to make this work.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ramset on July 02, 2008, 04:52:13 PM
The DR. is right Luc you can /should get that here  there is another thread here to comment freely This should stay here   others are watching that could also give Huge contributions Chet PS changing design of test tank for preload of 100 PSI[before combustion] chet
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hartiberlin on July 02, 2008, 05:00:21 PM
Hi Luc,
I have moved the thread to a new board and put you as the moderator.

Now you can remove the non-fitting posting, if you want.

Look beneath the thread for the additional options as a moderator.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 02, 2008, 05:00:31 PM
Hi Luc,

If you are using 110V from the wall and your 1:1 toroid transformer is big enough, all you are seeing is a standard arc discharge as that in an arc welder. The ignition spark will simply be providing the ionisation for the arc to start. Just as in arc welders that have a HF spark start so that you don't need to touch the electrode and risk sticking to get the arc going. So you will find that your input energy will be significant. That is not to say that this won't be effective to test on an engine as I think it might be a good and simple test rig to prove that you can fire an engine with water in the cylinder. But I don't think it would be an efficient way to get an engine running on water in a stand alone setup. For this we need to get the electrical energy input down.

I have also gotten such an bright arc effect like an arc welder by using my simple security strobe setup/circuit and connecting 5 or 6 12V lead acid batteries in series with a large HV diode (diodes) across the spark plug. Yes the spark plug will glow red and perish and it will use heaps of input energy and be nothing more than a brute force device.

Regards,

Ossie

Hi Ossie, I did some tests with the new circuit and here is what I found. Fist of all, I had forgot that I changed the capacitor to 3.3uf from the 1uf once I found this effect, so it is a 3.3uf cap used. Also I just got this variac and it looks like it can put out up to 160 volts and I was using around 150 volts. Next I tried to measure the current but I think none of my meters are giving reliable readings. The meter that worked best was my new analogue - digital and on the 10 amp scale it was only showing an average of about 200ma.

At everyone, my eyes have somewhat been affected by this but it's not so bad. But please all be more cautious than me and get some heavy sun glasses if you get to this point.

I will be out today all day. Got to go make some money :P. I hate this part of the World we have created.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nightlife on July 02, 2008, 05:55:46 PM
starcruiser,
Quote
The other method that comes to mind is to hit the water two or more times in quick succession, one to create the fog and the other to ignite it.

 That?s just what Myers had done. His injectors created a fog "energized steam" and then was ignited. This process has to be done instantaneously so that the hydrogen, oxygen and nitrogen don?t cool and become one again.

 What is being done now, with the plasma, is just energizing the water and exploding the hydrogen at the same time. When water is energized, the water splits in to hydrogen, nitrogen and oxygen, but the hydrogen and nitrogen clings to the oxygen. If they are allowed to cool, they become one again. The plasma can energize more water then the common spark can, the more voltage applied, the more water can be energized and therefore ignited.
 This is why week plasma can not explode very much water. Myers energized the water in the injector before the injector created the plasma spark. I believe he used the HV energizing process as a capacitor to create the plasma spark.

 Using just the plasma to explode water may just work in two stroke motors but I don?t believe it will work in 4 stroke motors. The amount of plasma it would take would blow a whole in the pistons of a 4 stroke motor. I believe this why Myers designed and used the energizing injector/sparkplug.
 I believe that the spark from the distributor cap would fire the injector which would spray energized water into the energizer and then create the spark. This would have to done within milliseconds of each other. Spray, energize, spark.

  Myers has done all the work for us, all we need to do is replicate what he has done and simplify it in a form that anyone can build. We all know that big money would never allow these injectors to be mass produced. Therefore, we must design and build them ourselves.

 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 02, 2008, 06:27:51 PM
Hi all, I'm now having problems with my internet connection to this site only at this time, so I'm posting this from a remote location. I might need to keep changing IP but what ever it takes it will get done.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hartiberlin on July 02, 2008, 06:35:34 PM
This water arc technology could probably also be good very well
for boat and ship?s propulsion systems.

Have a look at this:

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2004/7/29/0355/45526

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hartiberlin on July 02, 2008, 07:00:09 PM
Here are some basic illustrations and math about MHD generators and
MHD trusters:

http://www.plasma.inpe.br/LAP_Portal/LAP_Site/Text/Classical_Applications.htm
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: starcruiser on July 02, 2008, 07:33:40 PM
@nightlife,

I think you may be correct, and appreciate the logical extension of the concept however I was simply providing the next possible testing idea, to take the enhanced discharge of the spark plug and use a pressurized water source thru a nozzle or injector and create a fine mist to test the ignition out come. I believe one step at a time is required to understand the principle and then further the design to make a usable device.

I have all components available to me and will engage in testing over the next week when I am on vacation, work just does not allow me the time to do these projects any longer it seems.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hartiberlin on July 02, 2008, 07:46:45 PM
Have a look at this:

(http://www.myelectricengine.com/projects/mpdthruster/discharge.jpg)

At:

http://www.myelectricengine.com/projects/mpdthruster/mpdthruster.html

http://www.myelectricengine.com/projects/mpdthruster/ignition/ignition.html

Many thanks to user:
xilusma
for this info.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: goldenequity on July 02, 2008, 08:55:31 PM
@ hartiberlin
Impressive picture....but he's using a "propellent" gas.... and not water.
see what you think: http://www.myelectricengine.com/
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: NerzhDishual on July 02, 2008, 11:48:28 PM
........................
I have been told that if a magnet  holds  a weight  for an extended time no  work is done. Because  there is  no movement and no  energy input . 
If  an electro magnet is used to hold the same weight work IS done.
.........................

LOL!
This statement deserves a Poster. ;D

Best


Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hartiberlin on July 03, 2008, 12:06:08 AM
@ hartiberlin
Impressive picture....but he's using a "propellent" gas.... and not water.
see what you think: http://www.myelectricengine.com/


Simular rocket propulsion can be achieved by using water
mist at very high pressure levels.

I once saw a webpage about using
water as rocket fuel from a guy,
who really had a very big rocket test stand
and lived in the desert or had his test stand there...


He tested all sorts of water combustions
and only when he used high pressurized water mist
he could fire this up and burn it in his
rocket motor.
It depended on the water pressure he told in his webpage..

When he finally found it out, how to use water in his rocket
engine, he did try to get a patent on it and pulled his webpage
off the Internet, so now this information is unfortunately gone.

He wanted to sell it to the military, so they could design
cheaper rockets.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ramset on July 03, 2008, 12:09:48 AM
Stephan   maybe having seen his folly   he might show up here  Chet
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: aether22 on July 03, 2008, 12:30:46 AM
@ hartiberlin
Impressive picture....but he's using a "propellent" gas.... and not water.
see what you think: http://www.myelectricengine.com/


Also worth noting that it is Argon and not a combustible propellant.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: pese on July 03, 2008, 12:44:44 AM
@all, I found this link to a patent for a "Plasma Arc Ignition System" designed in 1993. It describes the concept of a combined high voltage, high current system. Although this was designed for gasoline there are some parallels to the work being done here. The diagrams even suggest some spark plug designs that may work best with a plasma arc. I wonder if it's inventor ever thought to try the system with water?

Click on 'Documents' to view the 45 page pdf

http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/wo.jsp?IA=CA1992000510&DISPLAY=DOCS

RD

Here dozend patents more ...
http://www.google.de/patents?q=PLASMA-ARC+IGNITION+SYSTEM&btnG=Search+Patents

Gustav Pese




















Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nightlife on July 03, 2008, 12:50:39 AM
Quote
From: "fredrikh99" <fredrikhansson@telia.com>Add sender to Contacts To: WaterFuel1978@yahoogroups.comAlright, I just made a short video showing my latest installement. I
ran it on 200 Volt and it takes 7 amps on idle. When run it goes down
to 5-6 amps.

http://www.youtube. com/watch? v=j0jXxPTvuGE

/Fredrik


I just recieved this quoted email. Here is the link to that video again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0jXxPTvuGE
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Haliburton on July 03, 2008, 12:58:15 AM
Hi guys, I started a new Energy Forum which is featuring gotoluc's findings that are here also. gotoluc has agreed to post his information here also. Please have a look here:  http://energyupdater.com/  and tell me what you think

Please keep it clean and pro.

 thanx guys

There still is room for a few more projects in the public library.

if you find any bugs let me know
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: livingwaters08 on July 03, 2008, 01:03:11 AM
I think there are some big questions and big assumptions here.  Have we have ruled out the dissassociation of water into H & O?  Is it agreed that this is a lower temperature effect, being the liberating of latent heat between the liquid & vapour phases of water? 

We are assuming this behaves remotely like conventional petrol or gas combusion engines.  Will a higher compression ratio help or hinder? 

I'm guessing this effect is the working principle of lightening & thunder.  Lightening is known to be plasma discharge.  AFAIK, lightening doesn't need compressed air to work.  In weather terms, aren't storms the result of a low pressure region?  Maybe very low compression engines will be better than high compression?


greendoor,  this may be the case here.  If ,and only if, s1r9a9m9 is telling  us the truth about his 1978 El-Camino running on just water(he did say that the engine was stock issue, unchanged)  then we can deduce that this could be  true since in 1978 GM had low compression engines in their vehicles as a result of EPA mandates dating to 1971 when the compression ratios were lowered significantly to comply with stricter emission controls.  Compressiom ratios in a typical V/8  before 1971 were around 10 to 1.  In 1971 onward to 1978, compression ratios went down to 8.2 to 1.  These were considered low compression engines.  My parents owned a 1975 Oldsmobile Toronado and I remember distinctly my father complaining of less power....you see the previous car was a 1970 Olds 98 with 10 to 1 compression ratio and 365 horse power 500 + pounds of torque!  Just some facts to put this in perspective.

Livingwaters08

 Less wasted power?  Storm clouds tend to be very tall, dense clouds.  I've tended to assume that lightening happens when there is sufficient water "shorting out" the potential difference in the atmosphere. 

Is liquid water better than a mist?

A small percentage of soluble oil might be beneficial mainly to stop rusting being a show stopper.  In time, I expect new engine designs will optimise this process.  Maybe if this is fairly low temp, we could use nylon piston rings or other plastic parts.

Maybe a steam engine type design is the way forward ...

Only experiments will find this out.   
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nightlife on July 03, 2008, 01:06:51 AM
Deleted post
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hartiberlin on July 03, 2008, 01:10:47 AM
Deleted post
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: livingwaters08 on July 03, 2008, 01:16:52 AM
@gotoluc

You MUST get Moderator authority so you can delete the 'crapsters' else this will just be another multi-page joke that goes no-where.

Dr Stiffler,
JUST WHO ARE THE CRAPSTERS??   I take offense at this comment since we are attempting to get this out to the common people, all people of the world.  Please do not be so insulting as to refer to some who may not know as much as others, but willing, and trying to learn,as "CRAPSTERS". 

Very Incorrect of you Dr Stiffler!  Very Inappropriate!

Livingwaters08
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: livingwaters08 on July 03, 2008, 01:25:29 AM
Deleted post
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: DrStiffler on July 03, 2008, 01:26:34 AM
Dr Stiffler,
JUST WHO ARE THE CRAPSTERS??   I take offense at this comment since we are attempting to get this out to the common people, all people of the world.  Please do not be so insulting as to refer to some who may not know as much as others, but willing, and trying to learn,as "CRAPSTERS". 

Very Incorrect of you Dr Stiffler!  Very Inappropriate!

Livingwaters08
@livingwaters08
If the shoe fits wear it. Gee wonder why you are so taken back.

You answered what a 'crapster' post is and my answer to you waste of bandwidth also meets the definition.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: TheOne on July 03, 2008, 01:29:24 AM

I just recieved this quoted email. Here is the link to that video again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0jXxPTvuGE

Nice video, on one of his video he tell how he do this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYD9ESMF1sM
Quote
I just mix high voltage AC from a car ignition coil with a lower pulsed DC voltage at 220 volt. I have not tried with any water or steam yet but I'm planning to.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: pese on July 03, 2008, 01:41:23 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMFvzohuVew&amp;feature=user
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFl-YN26kw8
 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: livingwaters08 on July 03, 2008, 01:47:02 AM
@livingwaters08
If the shoe fits wear it. Gee wonder why you are so taken back.

You answered what a 'crapster' post is and my answer to you waste of bandwidth also meets the definition.

Dr. Stiffler,

YOU ARE INCORRIGIBLE, AND VERY INCORRECT!! 
Are you for this water as fuel discovery to be shared by everyone? Just curious.

I was taken aback by your blatant lack of respect for a lot of us here....Clear enough?

Livingwaters08

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: clearchrome on July 03, 2008, 01:52:24 AM
Hi All,

Because it seems that people, who may or may not lack experience in electronics, are having trouble building and replicating the exploding water effect in previously described and shown devices, I have designed, built and tested what I believe to be a very simple to build device that most people can construct themselves at home that is powered only by a small square 9V battery that is commonly used in smoke alarms. I believe even kids can make this. Please see my latest video here:

http://www.youtube.com/m1a9r9s9

The purpose of this device is not to be able to power your car on water with it but simply to allow everyone to see for themselves and show others how water can directly explode on demand with little energy input. The device produces the required discharge in the spark plug about every 1 second and uses about 100-150ma from the 9V battery. At this current level the battery won't last too long but it is fine for demonstrations. For longer and continuous runs, just use a small 12V sealed lead acid battery of say 2 A/Hs.

Please see the circuit diagram and some pictures attached below.

All that is required to build this device is the following.

- A 12V, 150ma Security Xenon Strobe Light. Available from electronic and security stores. Color does not matter!

- An old car ignition coil. Available from automobile wreckers.

- A non resistor spark plug. Available from auto shops. Must not have a resistor in it!

- Five 1N5404 diodes or five large rectifying diodes. Part number doesn't really matter. Avaliable from electronic shops.

- A 9 volt battery. The same as used in smoke alarms. Available from anywhere.

- Some hook up wire.

- Basic tools including a soldering iron and some solder.

- Handheld water sprayer filled with water.

That's all folks!!

Please build this and show it to your friends, family, your teachers, professors, work mates anyone and everyone who can't believe that water can explode. Help your kids build this as their school science fair project. Just build it for fun!

On another note, my very good friend Ben has been doing some great research on this process as there is surprisingly quite a bit in the internet about it. He has found some references claiming that the energy released, when the water apparently explodes, is one thousand times the input energy required to cause the explosion. He has found some great info out about what may actually be happening but I will leave it to him to share if he gets time.

Enjoy!

Regards,

Ossie



Wow

I believe this callanan has a very interesting point here ..... we tend to always put more and more = more energy input ... KISS (Keep It Simple Please)


Based on his strobe design I found a strobe light tube (from RedLine co.) that I had bough 2 years ago at wallmart for 40$ CAD.

This strobe tube has 5 strobe lights with are fired at a user frequency (variator included in the unit that can be adjusted for your needs). 

The strobe has also 2 modes , linear sequential firing or randomized. I was wondering to myself that If you put a coil to each strobe and adjust the frequency triggering correctly, this unit might be quite usefull for testing multiple coil setup... you may test up to 5 cylinders on your car (Sorry for V6 cars loll )

I was also thinking that you can buy a Stun Gun, rated at 350,000v would that be a workable design?
They sell them for 20$ on ebay

http://cgi.ebay.com/350-000-volt-RECHARGEABLE-Stun-Gun-Flashlight-STUNGUNS_W0QQitemZ180259879830QQihZ008QQcategoryZ79850QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: retrod on July 03, 2008, 03:33:04 AM
@all, I was able to put together an Ossie C replication tonight using a strobe light. I recorded it with my Sony DSC-717. The circuit works great however the video turned out strange in that half or more of the very bright discharges are missing from the video, like they never happened  ???. The audio track is fine. Take a look here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktbaJpCdNx0

Props to Ossie for a very effective & simple demo circuit. BTW the plug was cool to the touch after all that sparking and noise  :)  Also noted that if the center wire was pulled from the coil an arc will come right out of the center of the coil and discharge to the coil side terminal, that's a lot of energy!

RD
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on July 03, 2008, 03:42:06 AM
KISS (Keep It Simple Please)
That spells "KISP" ...

LOL!!!!  ;D
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 03, 2008, 04:01:57 AM
@all, I was able to put together an Ossie C replication tonight using a strobe light. I recorded it with my Sony DSC-717. The circuit works great however the video turned out strange in that half or more of the very bright discharges are missing from the video, like they never happened  ???. The audio track is fine. Take a look here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktbaJpCdNx0

Props to Ossie for a very effective & simple demo circuit. BTW the plug was cool to the touch after all that sparking and noise  :)  Also noted that if the center wire was pulled from the coil an arc will come right out of the center of the coil and discharge to the coil side terminal, that's a lot of energy!

RD

Hi retrod,

Thanks for replicating the circuit and confirming the result. But most of all, thanks for also letting us know how a video does not do justice in conveying just how much of an explosion it is when compared to the dry spark discharge when no water is present. It seems that the explosion is so fast that most digital video cameras do not capture much of it. So I just want people to know that so far, what they see in the videos provided is only a small extent of the real explosiveness that you will see on the bench in front of you, if you build it yourself.

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: buzneg on July 03, 2008, 04:09:30 AM
Add KOH of NaOH to the water
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: send_to_nice on July 03, 2008, 04:31:59 AM
deleted post
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 03, 2008, 04:58:54 AM
Tried steam tonight, it doesn't seem to do as good as just spraying water. I should have tried some electrolyte in it, didn't think about it til just now. Might try that tomorrow. I'll be hooking this up to a small engine over the weekend just to see what happens. I'm with the others on this, I don't see the point in taking this to a private thread.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Haliburton on July 03, 2008, 05:03:24 AM
Post deleted by gotoluc

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: livingwaters08 on July 03, 2008, 05:09:50 AM
Post deleted
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 03, 2008, 05:55:22 AM
Hi everyone,

first of all I am here and not abandoning this topic at Overunity. Second thing is Stefan has now given me moderator privileges and it will help very much to keep the first page (where the updated schematic will be posted) up to date. I have just spent over 5 hours updating the first page and also gone through all the 1st page post to clean out what is not needed or off topic to help new comers get to the correct information without spending too much time. So after spending all this time and 9 more pages to clean I'm not giving up here.

As for the other site mentioned by user: Haliburton which at first I also was thinking he was Stefan, he contacted me to ask if I would be interested to post my finding on his new site to which I agreed since I want this information to go out to the World asap. So it is nothing more than that for now. Having moderator previlages here is going to help!.... Thanks Stefan.

@Haliburton I think your last post was not the appropriate way to promote your new site, so I have deleted it and also have made some changes in your previous post on a better way to introduce your new site here. We need to all work together or this will fail. I will be in touch with you since I have made some new updates.

At everyone please continue this topic as usual and please have a look at the first page since I have updated my schematic and the text content . My circuit is very efficient now thanks to the diodes that user calanan has recommended. Before with the microwave oven diode much of the high voltage was bleeding through it and that is the reason I needed a 150uf capacitor to make the circuit work. With the new diodes I now use a 2uf capacitor and the circuit works great in fact better. So thanks to calanan for his suggestion to use these diodes in the circuit. With just this change I do believe now that both our circuits are giving the same results. I have also noticed with this change that if the input voltage is around 140 volts or more you don't want to look at the spark without UV protection glasses ;)

Play safe and please do not take it personal if I deleted or change some of the content of your post because it is not a personal thing here is is about helping newcomers getting to the information they need to quickly replicate.

Luc


 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: LarryC on July 03, 2008, 06:42:23 AM
Hi Luc,

Thanks for the additional info, went to the new site and a little confusing!

Anyway, wanted to report on my results using a variac to a FWB thru a lawn tractor spark plug.

I did have a problem with getting the spark plug resistor out of a tractor lawn mower plug, but after more heat and more pressure the spark plug cap did open. The only problem was that the spring and the resistor must have shot out so fast that I didn't find it. Added copper wire to the empty space and got no resistance.

Then ran a spark without water spray, good spark and no problem. Then ran with mister and what a orange firecracker! But it blew my 10 A fuse on the variac. Will use isolation transformer as you posted next time. Only had 4-1N5404 in series, will get more.

Regards, Larry
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 03, 2008, 07:07:58 AM


http://www.myelectricengine.com/projects/mpdthruster/ignition/ignition.html



I am   having  some problems  understanding   figure 5 in the link above

I think it  would be perfect for a using  DC for the plasma  ......IF it works


As I understand it  .....if  our DC source was a  battery   the   entire   ignition pulse  would   go through   our battery

Even  if the  battery voltage floated on the   HV   ............the  HV would  still  be  affected by the  resistance of the battery

 

gary
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 03, 2008, 07:17:26 AM
Hi Luc,

Thanks for the additional info, went to the new site and a little confusing!

Anyway, wanted to report on my results using a variac to a FWB thru a lawn tractor spark plug.

I did have a problem with getting the spark plug resistor out of a tractor lawn mower plug, but after more heat and more pressure the spark plug cap did open. The only problem was that the spring and the resistor must have shot out so fast that I didn't find it. Added copper wire to the empty space and got no resistance.

Then ran a spark without water spray, good spark and no problem. Then ran with mister and what a orange firecracker! But it blew my 10 A fuse on the variac. Will use isolation transformer as you posted next time. Only had 4-1N5404 in series, will get more.

Regards, Larry

Hi Larry, great work ;D I'm happy for you to have a quick replication with results. You do need to have a minimum of 10 x 1N5404 diodes. That could of been the reason of a fuse blow on your variac. Also notice that the capacitor is now a 2uf at 150v to 200v.

Give us an update once you get all your diodes. Also, you may have damage to your 4-1N5404 in series you tested it with. So if I were you I would start will all new ones. Unless you have a diode tester or know of a reliable way to test them.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xilusma on July 03, 2008, 08:30:27 AM
@Gary and all,

The DC and HV-AC are not directly connected. He just used the HV for the bridge (arcing) before pulsing the DC. Just like Luc circuit (if I may say so) or any other arc welding circuit.

Regards,

p/s: I think there are similarity if not direct understanding of how the TPU's work.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 03, 2008, 08:49:15 AM
@Gary and all,

The DC and HV-AC are not directly connected. He just used the HV for the bridge (arcing) before pulsing the DC. Just like Luc circuit (if I may say so) or any other arc welding circuit.

Regards,

p/s: I think there are similarity if not direct understanding of how the TPU's work.

xilusma

Yes        I understand that the  point of the  whole  curciuit  is to isolate  the  2  sources of power
I understand   how the  coil  isolated the HV .........  I don't  see  how  the  low  voltage is protected


gary
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nightlife on July 03, 2008, 09:10:49 AM
I am not good with circuits but I find that s1r has used the coils coil wire for the ground to charge what ever he has in the container. When the coil fires, it breaks the grounds connection.

 What can be charged by connecting a negative and positive and then discharged to the closest ground just by breaking the connection?

 What ever can do that, must be what he is using.

 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 03, 2008, 09:32:01 AM
I am not good with circuits but I find that s1r has used the coils coil wire for the ground to charge what ever he has in the container. When the coil fires, it breaks the grounds connection.

 What can be charged by connecting a negative and positive and then discharged to the closest ground just by breaking the connection?

 What ever can do that, must be what he is using.

 

Nightlife

That sounds like the " normal " way to trigger  an  ignition coil


gary
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: aether22 on July 03, 2008, 09:44:24 AM
But it blew my 10 A fuse on the variac. Will use isolation transformer as you posted next time. Only had 4-1N5404 in series, will get more.

Regards, Larry

Blowing a 10A fuse sounds relatively brute force, or in other words possibly underunity.

If we assume that what S1r did is real then it should be more energy out than we put in electrically.

So the question is, are there 2 ways to do this or only 1?  Is there a way that takes over 10A and another that pulls far less (such as Luc's first version) for the same result?

Is the isolation that S1r went to efforts to get required to get the effect OU, or can the circuit be grounded?

Very rude of me to ask questions without answering any of 'em I know....
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nightlife on July 03, 2008, 09:48:06 AM
Quote
Nightlife

That sounds like the " normal " way to trigger  an  ignition coil


gary

 

 Gary, you are exactly right. Now what kind of ignition coil operates off 110?

 The best thing I can think of is a oil furnace igniter coil. 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 03, 2008, 10:53:50 AM


 Gary, you are exactly right. Now what kind of ignition coil operates off 110?

 The best thing I can think of is a oil furnace igniter coil. 


Nightlife

Are you sure it is 110 V  ?

As far as I know an oil  furnice  coil is  just a transformer .......it is very similar to  a neon  sign  transformer . 


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


I  just went back and watched the  videos  again
I didn't   try to  trace the wires

I did notice  something I missed before
The  first time I watched video1   I noticed  that the first thing you see   is a close up  of the  place to connect  the  place to connect the  fuel line  ......... I had thought  that  he  was connecting  the  hose  there .

In  the  2nd  video he removes the   float bowl .......and  holds it in  front of the camera for a second . 

I didn't  realise before that he was just   running water  into the intake .
He  is clearly  " flooding " the engine
I am pretty  sure that you  won't  get ANY  gas engine  to run that  steady by  doing that  that  .      IF you can get it to run that way at all .

The gas air  mixture has to be  fairly close  .......... with this process I think   all you really need  enough  water .
I  am thinking   that the times   in  video 1 where he  rotated  the  engine  by had was  to clear partial hydro lock

Now I am  thinking that the way  to  control  the  engine power is to vary   the  low voltage .


gary
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Lakes on July 03, 2008, 11:03:13 AM
Makes fascinating reading guys, using the strobe light makes for an easy way to replicate.

I was thinking what would be the simplest engine to try this in?, could a model steam engine be used or adapted?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: powercat on July 03, 2008, 11:16:29 AM
Hi Luc & @

so if we run the exhaust into the intake as a closed loop on an engine.Then water could ignite at spark plug ,will it reform to water ready to burn again?
Hope so ;)

pc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nightlife on July 03, 2008, 12:02:00 PM
resonanceman,
Quote
Are you sure it is 110 V  ?

As far as I know an oil  furnace  coil is  just a transformer .......it is very similar to  a neon  sign  transformer .

 I didn't say 110 v, I said 110 referring to the outlet. We cant really tell what volts or amps are actually being used but we can probably assume it is putting out 120V at about 30amps. Not that the wires are consuming that much. We would need to see a volt meter and a amp meter attached to know for sure.

 As for the oil furnace coil just being a transformer, that maybe true but it is pulsed and it does put out a lot hotter spark, especially in a salamander heater.
 Actually, I am thinking of the salamander more so then the furnace. I use salamanders in the winter and I have had to take them apart and change the plug. I just happen to have one I can take apart and see what it uses to create the spark. I assumed a coil due to the coil wire. Then again, my assumptions have been way off before and they may be once again.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: send_to_nice on July 03, 2008, 12:03:54 PM
I was thinking what would be the simplest engine to try this in?, could a model steam engine be used or adapted?

Personally I'd be thinking along the lines of either lawnmower/chainsaw engines or even model aircraft engines. The problem with using a steam engine is that although they are powered by pressure, they don't work with a spark plug so you'd have to mod it to fit one.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: tishatang on July 03, 2008, 12:09:01 PM
@Nightlife and Starcruiser and All

There is an engine that seems most suited for experimental purposes.  It is the 4 banger in the mid 80's Nissan Hardbody line of pickups.  It has a carb and dual ignition like an aircraft engine with two spark plugs per cylinder.  One plug fires and soon after the other plug fires. "energize and then fire".  It has two ignition coils to do the task.  It has a distributor with two coil inputs and 8 out.  Does not have the complicated computer controls that fuel injection engines have.

All kinds of flexibility are possible with this engine:
Easy to advance or retard timing, mess with the carb, mess with the two spark plugs, or make a special water injector and use one on the spark plug holes.

I think the Nissan Maxima around this time had a passenger car version.  It had a timing belt, the pickup used a chain.  Get the truck, more room around the engine.

Tishatang
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Lakes on July 03, 2008, 01:09:53 PM
Personally I'd be thinking along the lines of either lawnmower/chainsaw engines or even model aircraft engines. The problem with using a steam engine is that although they are powered by pressure, they don't work with a spark plug so you'd have to mod it to fit one.
Model Aircraft engines use a glowplug, http://www.rc-airplane-world.com/model-airplane-engines.html so not sure how suitable they would be, maybe something like a small weedwacker/strimmer engine would do.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Dread on July 03, 2008, 01:13:41 PM
Luc.

Referring to Page 1 and your circuit diagram. (thanks) and S1R's comments. Where should the 2nd booster coil be placed and have you tried it?

Rgds.
 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: aether22 on July 03, 2008, 01:19:08 PM
Personally I'd be thinking along the lines of either lawnmower/chainsaw engines or even model aircraft engines. The problem with using a steam engine is that although they are powered by pressure, they don't work with a spark plug so you'd have to mod it to fit one.

Forget the model aircraft engine, they are not suited at all.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Koen1 on July 03, 2008, 01:19:27 PM
@Luc: All hail the Moderator! ;) ;D

but seriously, what is the direction you'd like this to go, Luc?
Do you want to move toward using this very cool effect in an actual engine,
like s1r9a9m9 (claims he) has done?
Or are you more interested in studying the effect itself?

I myself would like to see if s1r9a9m9's V8 running on water without need
for battery recharging setup really works, and if so, convert a car
to run on it... And a generator as well, to produce real free energy to
power the household.
After all, if it is indeed possible to run a V8 on it, then it must be possible
to run a generator on it... And if the V8 car never needs battery recharge
because it is truly OU, then obviously so would the generator.
Perhaps it would even be better to focus on getting a generator to run
on this, and just use an electric car. Lotus has a nice one coming out
soon, and with all the $$ I'd be saving on electrical and gas bills
it shouldn't take very long to be able to get one of those...

Luc, I ask because well it was your thread to begin with, although
I think we're all very happy that Ossie jumped in too :), and because
I see people trying to (and sometimes succeeding) replicate the effect,
but no clear goal or direction we're working towards...

Who of us here is anxious to try it in an engine setup?
I myself would love to get started right away, but unfortunately I am a terrible
mechanic and just fixing something on a normal car engine already takes
ages, so I don't think I am the one to head this off. ;)
I am definately willing to waste my time trying to replicate someones example
though, so if someone has or can give a clear step-by-step overview of how
to alter the engine and probably most importantly the circuitry involved and
how to hook that to conventional controls, that would certainly help a lot.

Sort of like that great description Ossie gave of the test circuit.

So, what does everyone think? :D
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: retrod on July 03, 2008, 01:31:24 PM
Hi retrod,

Thanks for replicating the circuit and confirming the result. But most of all, thanks for also letting us know how a video does not do justice in conveying just how much of an explosion it is when compared to the dry spark discharge when no water is present. It seems that the explosion is so fast that most digital video cameras do not capture much of it. So I just want people to know that so far, what they see in the videos provided is only a small extent of the real explosiveness that you will see on the bench in front of you, if you build it yourself.

Regards,

Ossie



 Thanks again Ossie. I checked out my camera this morning. It was designed as mainly a photo camera so the video recording rate is fixed at only 16 frames per second. This would explain the strange drop outs on the video. I noticed the camera also tries to level out the audio, so you really can't appreciate how much louder the arc becomes with the water spray. Like you said, folks need to build this themselves and see and hear for yourself.
 Too all, be sure to protect your eyes, a 'welders burn' is very easy with this system due to the intense spark flash and maybe uv being emitted.

RD
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: aether22 on July 03, 2008, 01:54:09 PM
I don't think Luc could answer that, obviously he would like 1,000 replications of S1R's effect in cars before the end of the week, but it is each experimenter that is going to have to do the work, take the risks and pay the bills (and learn the skills).

That said this is going to be useless if no one trys it in an ICE, so any experimenters who have the right skills and gear should definitely try that, but let's face it not everyone here has the skills or an ICE to try this on.

However to get as many decent tests on ICE's then a list of suitable cheap motor types would be a good idea. (assuming there is no way to 'fix' that issue?)
Apparently most/all 2 stroke engines are a poor choice because the fuel is the lube, so then what small engines are suited and what are the prices and practicality?

It strikes me that engines that have a starter motor should be favored strongly, I am sure everyone has had a pain of a time trying to start a lawn mower or maybe outboard engine and that is with petrol.

Not sure but what about scooters or motorbikes?
Generators also sounds very practical (if the motor suits?) since all the energy can if need be in a marginal system go into recharging the battery. (even if it just powers it's self with just water input most would consider that good enough to prove the principle)

The other thought would be to befriend someone who is into messing around with cars, let's face it most people here have experience with electrical stuff and maybe other things but probably not too many working on cars much, since fuel prices are up if you can think of someone you know there is a decent chance that you could get them interested in donating their time/tools/knowledge/parts. (if you do the electrical they may be happy to do the rest)

There are enough stories of water being added to gas creating greater mpg's (with no other modifications) that it makes sense that at first you could just add a small percentage of water, see how that goes and then add the HC to explode the water, increase the % as you go.

While I think a car running on water would be the best way to get attention in the world at large I think a self powering 'just add water' engine would be best to get replications happening on here ;)

So before too long we need to get decent ICE info on here but first we need a circuit diagram that does not use an inverter, Luc has done it but has not yet made a diagram of this. (not that it sound too hard)
I must say, if anyone on here can get an ICE running on this and be open and not all mysterious this issue will get very big very fast, no kidding.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: k4zep on July 03, 2008, 02:17:34 PM
Forget the model aircraft engine, they are not suited at all.

I hav been flying R/C aircraft 52 years and I beg ta differ............In fact I am modifying an old FOX 78 to run using this process................Will take time, I'm a slow builder/modifier.

Ben
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Koen1 on July 03, 2008, 02:31:13 PM
However to get as many decent tests on ICE's then a list of suitable cheap motor types would be a good idea. (assuming there is no way to 'fix' that issue?)
Apparently most/all 2 stroke engines are a poor choice because the fuel is the lube, so then what small engines are suited and what are the prices and practicality?
Yes, good point on the lube. That, plus the fact that second hand engines are not at all that expensive, plus the fact that "normal" car engines are more
practical to use for the next step of driving your car or using them as a generator, leads me to think it may be just as usefull or even more so to just
skip the phase of everyone buying small motors to test this setup with, and just going for larger second hand car engines.
But it may not be. ;)
The small engines I have looked at so far were generally two stroke engines or ethanol run model car engines, the first seems like a bad idea due to the
lube, the second may be usefull but I'd have to buy a new one plus control circuit and that is not very cheap... I could almost get a second (probably
third or fourth but who's counting) hand old car engine for the same money... And a couple of years ago, before the financial shite and the oil prices
skyrocketing, I could have bought a fairly new 100% working modern electrical generator for that same price (in the region I lived at the time). :)

Quote
It strikes me that engines that have a starter motor should be favored strongly, I am sure everyone has had a pain of a time trying to start a lawn mower or maybe outboard engine and that is with petrol.
Yeah, seems like a good idea, unless of course you need the arm exercise. ;)

Quote
Not sure but what about scooters or motorbikes?
Well I'm sure. I wouldn't go for those.
Quote
Generators also sounds very practical (if the motor suits?) since all the energy can if need be in a marginal system go into recharging the battery. (even if it just powers it's self with just water input most would consider that good enough to prove the principle)
Exactly. :)
and many generators have engines very similar if not identical to car engines.
I guess the engines may need to be waterproofed though, as there will be water vapour contacting much of the internal surfaces
and we don't want the stuff to rust now do we?


Quote
So before too long we need to get decent ICE info on here but first we need a circuit diagram that does not use an inverter, Luc has done it but has not yet made a diagram of this. (not that it sound too hard)
I must say, if anyone on here can get an ICE running on this and be open and not all mysterious this issue will get very big very fast, no kidding.
Yeah, I think you're right there. But we should watch out we don't get a Steorn-effect as in that the whole world suddenly jumps to this thread and
forum, swamping the FE community with overexcited statements, hindering the actual development process, and then having to perform public
demonstrations before actually being ready for it. (I'm not even going to mention that this works and the Steorn thing didn't)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 03, 2008, 03:24:33 PM
Hi Luc & @

so if we run the exhaust into the intake as a closed loop on an engine.Then water could ignite at spark plug ,will it reform to water ready to burn again?
Hope so ;)

pc

Powercat


Yup

Sr19  siad   he  ran the exhaust  into  the  fuel tank   to  recondense  it  ....... rather than  a tail pile  coming out of the  fuel tank  he vented   the   filler cap . 

If   your  cooling loop  was big enough  pretty much all  the  exhaust  should condense .



I would  love to try   to power  a sterling engine  with   water arcing .

gary
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 03, 2008, 03:25:58 PM
@Gary and all,

The DC and HV-AC are not directly connected. He just used the HV for the bridge (arcing) before pulsing the DC. Just like Luc circuit (if I may say so) or any other arc welding circuit.

Regards,

p/s: I think there are similarity if not direct understanding of how the TPU's work.
Hi xilusma, very good observations. I is interesting you are talking of an arc welder because yesterday I was working on some renovation work at my uncles new home and was explaining to him this circuit since he is a real EE and how it is really only a short circuit and that is the first thing he said (this is the principal of a ark welder)

Thanks for posting

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 03, 2008, 03:33:03 PM
Hi Luc & @

so if we run the exhaust into the intake as a closed loop on an engine.Then water could ignite at spark plug ,will it reform to water ready to burn again?
Hope so ;)

pc
Hi powercat, yes it should reform to water. If I remember correctly S1R exhaust was going to a stainless Steel tank where the water would condensate and start the loop again.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 03, 2008, 03:36:00 PM



 Actually, I am thinking of the salamander more so then the furnace. I use salamanders in the winter and I have had to take them apart and change the plug. I just happen to have one I can take apart and see what it uses to create the spark. I assumed a coil due to the coil wire. Then again, my assumptions have been way off before and they may be once again.

Nightlife

WHhat   is the sparkplug like om a salamamder ?

a  sparkplug  with a bigger gap might be handy .................longer  spark more plasma ............more plasma more power .

gary
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 03, 2008, 03:38:54 PM
Luc.

Referring to Page 1 and your circuit diagram. (thanks) and S1R's comments. Where should the 2nd booster coil be placed and have you tried it?

Rgds.
 

Hi Dread, at this time we don't wet see a need for it. It seems the small 1uf or 2uf could be doing the same thing. Just replicate my simple circuit and get familiar with the effect and then try making changes one at a time.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 03, 2008, 03:44:28 PM
@Luc: All hail the Moderator! ;) ;D

but seriously, what is the direction you'd like this to go, Luc?
Do you want to move toward using this very cool effect in an actual engine,
like s1r9a9m9 (claims he) has done?
Or are you more interested in studying the effect itself?

Sort of like that great description Ossie gave of the test circuit.

So, what does everyone think? :D

Hi Koen1, The direction I would like this to go is to use this effect to make a combustion engine work.

I'm off to work for the day.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 03, 2008, 03:46:32 PM
@Nightlife and Starcruiser and All

There is an engine that seems most suited for experimental purposes.  It is the 4 banger in the mid 80's Nissan Hardbody line of pickups.  It has a carb and dual ignition like an aircraft engine with two spark plugs per cylinder.  One plug fires and soon after the other plug fires. "energize and then fire".  It has two ignition coils to do the task.  It has a distributor with two coil inputs and 8 out.  Does not have the complicated computer controls that fuel injection engines have.

All kinds of flexibility are possible with this engine:
Easy to advance or retard timing, mess with the carb, mess with the two spark plugs, or make a special water injector and use one on the spark plug holes.

I think the Nissan Maxima around this time had a passenger car version.  It had a timing belt, the pickup used a chain.  Get the truck, more room around the engine.

Tishatang

Thanks  Tishatang

2 sets of plugs ?

It  does sound  almost ideal ........only way  it could be better is  if it had  dual  carbs .

gary
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hydrocontrol on July 03, 2008, 03:49:25 PM
Some points to consider before jumping on a car conversion.
1. If you convert a car how will you be able to run the car in the winter when the outside temperature freezes ? Auxiliary heater perhaps but that starts adding more elements to conversion.
2. What will water combustion do to a car exhaust system or to the engine over a period of time ?
3. If the conversion fails you have a large object to get rid or to explain to the wife why you have a new lawn decoration.  ::)
4. Cars can range from simple to complex so having a base car engine for everyone to use would be harder to achieve.  :-\
5. EPA regulations and red tape in US states that have emissions checks for cars. 

Some points on a small electric start engine.
1. If it does not work out you are only out a couple of hundred bucks instead of a couple of thousand.
2. No real EPA regulations to deal with.
3. More easy to dispose of engine if fails.
4. Exhaust systems are cheap to replace.
5. You may even be able to run indoors so water freezing is not as much a concern or at least it would be more easy to vent the exhaust.

I agree that ultimately a form of transportation would be the most desirable to get running on water but it maybe the most complex for the first attempt. A generator to run your house or recharge a electrically converted car maybe easier and just as useful for the first go around.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 03, 2008, 04:00:51 PM

 so if someone has or can give a clear step-by-step overview of how
to alter the engine and probably most importantly the circuitry involved and
how to hook that to conventional controls, that would certainly help a lot.


Koen

That is  exactly what  we are working on here .

gary
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 03, 2008, 04:20:16 PM
I hav been flying R/C aircraft 52 years and I beg ta differ............In fact I am modifying an old FOX 78 to run using this process................Will take time, I'm a slow builder/modifier.

Ben


Ben

I like  your  spirit   

 :)

 It has been  many years  sense  I have   looked  at a model engine .   
Can you  pull  the  heating  element

  part of the  glow plug out and  replace it with a  copper wire  ?

Other than  the lube  issue  my  big concern  is the  compression  ratio .
unless  you   add an ignition  system  .you  will have to rely on   the  compression  ratio to  fire  it off .

I have no idea what   that compression ratio would be .   

Is it  possible to   change  the   piston  rod or  something to get  different  compression ratios ?

 


I have no idea  what would  be the  best thing to use for  creating your arc .

gary
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 03, 2008, 04:37:52 PM
Hi All,

Please see my latest video here:

http://www.youtube.com/m1a9r9s9

Whilst further endevouring to increase the efficiency of the capacitor discharge circuit, tests revealed that a great deal of energy is wasted whilst the plasma is on because the power supply is still connected and as such is also powering the plasma even after the capacitor discharge is complete. This causes a great deal of wasted energy in heat and the requirement for a loading resistor in series with the power supply which also wastes energy in the form of heat.

Further analysis revealed that there was a requirement to disconnect the power supply whilst the capacitor discharged into the plasma so as not to waste energy. Forgoing a complex HV switching circuit, I found that an inductor could assist in holding the wasted energy from the power supply whilst the capacitor is discharging into the plasma and then when the plasma switches off, the back emf of the inductor will dump it's stored energy into the capacitor ready for the next discharge and so the power supply energy is not wasted but used. Please see the circuit diagram below.

As you can see in the video, this circuit is not only very simple but it is very efficient in getting most of the input energy to the plasma discharge. The plasma is so bright that it is like a welding arc but WITHOUT the heat when water is used, or else the spark plug does get warm but not hot if left dry. I have used this circuit continuously at pulse rates from 20 to 100 Hz with no problems and very little heat in any components.

At higher pulse rates it is difficult getting enough water into the plasma but if you manage to, it will shoot out like a jet engine flame with an equivalently loud noise as well. The light is so bright that I recomend dark glasses whilst testing this circuit and the noise is so loud, whilst pumping water into it continuously from high pulse rate explosions, that I also recommend ear plugs as my ears are still ringing...

At pulse rates from 20-70 Hz the input current at 12 volts to the inverter was between 2.5 and 5 amps. For the inductor I simply used a 12V standard car relay coil.

In my opinion I believe that this circuit so far will perform the best on a real engine. So I think I am ready for this step next.

Regards,

Ossie
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 03, 2008, 04:39:59 PM
I just thought I would make one more comment   before I  leave for a while .


I  saw someone  commented about  wearing   sunglasses or something  when looking at the arc .

I would say that  most sunglasses  don't  have enough   UV protection to do alot of good .
Weldinng goggles  or something  similar  should be used  if you  spend any amount of  time looking at the arc .

The  pain   you feel in your eyes  after  looking at  ANY arc  for a  little while is     from something  like   sunburn on  your retina  .   And yes the damage can be permenent .                 Dark  sunglasses  may or may not  have UV protection .
If they don't have UV protection    they will cause your pupels to dilate more ........causing   your retina to  burn even faster .

gary
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Koen1 on July 03, 2008, 04:51:48 PM
Koen

That is  exactly what  we are working on here .

gary
Oh? Well I understand that is the goal, but most of what I've seen
posted here recently has zero to do with an engine and everything
to do with a circuit that produces a plasma which can ignite water aerosol...
And so I got the impression that what was happening here did not
really include the engine conversion part of the plan yet...
... but perhaps I overlooked something... ;)

Oh, and on a sidenote I don't think anyone nowadays has sunglasses
without UV filter of some sort... But you welding goggles suggestion
may be a good one. :)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ramset on July 03, 2008, 04:55:18 PM
ALL dont look into the light #11 shield at least or turn and watch the shadow  you are welding here  Chet
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 03, 2008, 05:08:25 PM
ALL dont look into the light #11 shield at least or turn and watch the shadow  you are welding here  Chet

Hi ramset,

Good advise. We certainly have a continuous arc that is very bright like an arc welder. But instead of producing such a bright arc with 1000-2000 watts input as in an arc welder. I am now doing it with just 60 watts input... Such is the difference when there no or very little heat output, unlike an arc welder...

Regards,

Ossie
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: livingwaters08 on July 03, 2008, 05:18:55 PM

Nightlife

Are you sure it is 110 V  ?

As far as I know an oil  furnice  coil is  just a transformer .......it is very similar to  a neon  sign  transformer . 

Nightlife, resonanceman, and group,

Let's remember s1's description of the 3 coil setup in his recent post on Waterfuel1978.  He describes the coil in great detail.
Here's his post:

Re: New video 2


There are three windings on the coil, one main winding, one on each
side with deferent number of windings in each, the two windings on
each side are wound through the main winding , as 1 being a winding
and 2 being a winding and 0 being the main winding, it will look
like this 1-0-1_2-0-2. the windings are not touching each other but
they are wound through the main (0) winding, this replaces the double
coil set in the relay system. I will post the number of turns on each
winding as soon as I have all the info put together. None of the
windings have the same number of turns so the harmonics deffer when
current passes through them. This also is helping to block the 110v
from the 12v. This coil does not replace the HV coil on the vehicle.

S1R.

From this description....Is this a Tesla Coil?    Hope this helps to perfect the circuit.

Livigwaters08


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


I  just went back and watched the  videos  again
I didn't   try to  trace the wires

I did notice  something I missed before
The  first time I watched video1   I noticed  that the first thing you see   is a close up  of the  place to connect  the  place to connect the  fuel line  ......... I had thought  that  he  was connecting  the  hose  there .

In  the  2nd  video he removes the   float bowl .......and  holds it in  front of the camera for a second . 

I didn't  realise before that he was just   running water  into the intake .
He  is clearly  " flooding " the engine
I am pretty  sure that you  won't  get ANY  gas engine  to run that  steady by  doing that  that  .      IF you can get it to run that way at all .

The gas air  mixture has to be  fairly close  .......... with this process I think   all you really need  enough  water .
I  am thinking   that the times   in  video 1 where he  rotated  the  engine  by had was  to clear partial hydro lock

Now I am  thinking that the way  to  control  the  engine power is to vary   the  low voltage .


gary
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: stu on July 03, 2008, 06:09:24 PM
Hi Ossie,

I'm a non electronics person who has been keeping an eye on the watercar1978 forum for 2 years now, and of late this forum,and I am gathering parts to build the 9v batt circuit supplied earlier - once this is done and the circuit understood (by myself!) then the next stage would be to convert that circuit to this latest one that you have just posted.

As the Siggen is just being used to replicate the high speed firing of the ICE, is it a simple matter to replace that whole aspect of the circuitry with the pos & neg from the strobe being wired directly to the pos & neg of the coil and then the inverter circuit tied in to the neg of the coil and the coil output just as it is in the latest diagram?

I just want to try and prove my replication in stages and attempt to understand some electronic basics while I go.

Many thanks - Stu (from Northern Ireland)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: retrod on July 03, 2008, 06:10:10 PM
Hi ramset,

Good advise. We certainly have a continuous arc that is very bright like an arc welder. But instead of producing such a bright arc with 1000-2000 watts input as in an arc welder. I am now doing it with just 60 watts input... Such is the difference when there no or very little heat output, unlike an arc welder...

Regards,

Ossie
Ossie, I was looking over your latest schematic, the one with the inverter. The top half looks to be the same in function to a standard ignition, let's say for a single cylinder engine with a battery ignition system (like an old garden tractor). The bottom half has the inverter and the few diodes, caps and a coil that might be what's inside s1's 'can' we saw in the video's. What do you think?

RD
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: sigmaX on July 03, 2008, 07:32:31 PM
My Two cents:

If you video record your testings and the resulting sparks with a camera and notice that although you can personally see the plug to spark continuously, the video  afterwards shows that sometimes there is no spark, it is just that the video cameras are not "continuous recording capable": They take 25 or 30 "pictures" per second. It just happens that in the moment of SOME of those pictures, there is no "spark" going on. Which shows also that the spark life is very little (definitely less than 1/25 or 1/30th of second).

You might use slow motion cameras (or some of the new digital cameras) that shoot 60 or more frames per second, if you want to register it correctly, or synchronize the sparking to the camera shutter (this last paragraph is theoretical, as I am sure it is not necessary, we believe anyway, if you say, that the spark is there ;) )

Regards,

Enrique (sigmaX)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 03, 2008, 07:57:10 PM
Oh? Well I understand that is the goal, but most of what I've seen
posted here recently has zero to do with an engine and everything
to do with a circuit that produces a plasma which can ignite water aerosol...
And so I got the impression that what was happening here did not
really include the engine conversion part of the plan yet...
... but perhaps I overlooked something... ;)

Oh, and on a sidenote I don't think anyone nowadays has sunglasses
without UV filter of some sort... But you welding goggles suggestion
may be a good one. :)

Koen

You  didn't miss anything .

It  would be nice to jump to the end of the game and have   finished  water powered engines  running  our cars and  powering our  homes ......   We ain't there yet .  ........  We are  still working on   understanding   the   arc and how  best to make it  .
It  just doesn't make sense to   try  step  3 and 4 when  you   still have a bunch to learn about step 1

gary
Title: ??
Post by: vlpe on July 03, 2008, 09:11:51 PM
HI all

why use inverter if the current is being rectified just after the inverter??
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: goldenequity on July 03, 2008, 09:15:02 PM
@ everyone
I did in fact burn my retina from welding arc (still remember the pain!).... If you should happen to get careless and experience some piercing pain in the eyeballs, this works to ease the pain (fairly quickly)... take a raw potato and shred it as a poultice ... lay back in a darkened room close your eyes and put a handful over both eyes.  (Like putting raw hash browns over your eyes).  It works.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: billd on July 04, 2008, 01:16:12 AM
Hello everyone,

   I have been reading your posts and I think you are going in the right direction.  I spent too much time building HHO generators and now believe plasma initiated water has the only hope of really working.
   More to the point of this thread,  the two sources of voltage need to function and be protected form each other since they sum at the spark plug.  The high voltage spike from the spark coil (SC) or magneto could damage the inverter and rectifier (IR) and unwanted current flow from the IR through the SC secondary or magneto could damage the SC or magneto and or burnout the IR itself.
    To protect the SC secondary & IR from over current without using diodes,  I propose a second spark gap between the SC top and the spark plug, a function supplied by the distributer, rotor and cap of older ICEs.  The IR current should not flow through the SC secondary ever but should only flow through the spark plug gap and for a few milliseconds after the SC initiating spark (controlling duration is a future issue) .   
   To protect the IR without high PIV diodes I propose a 3 element low pass filter (LPF).  A  isolation transformer is a form of LPF and would help protect an inverter but won't protect the bridge rectifier.  A single capacitor (one element LPF)  may protect the IR but could shunt the HV pulse.  But a series  inductor, shunt capacitor, series inductor (properly done) LPF would protect the IR without shunting the HV pulse.  A  LPF will also smooth the output of the IR.   . 
    Diodes can be used but I think you will find that commercial solid state is no match for the harsh ?under the hood? environment of a automobile.
   I have also been reading several S1r replicator posts and and for the what its worth file, some folks believe a hot engine is a necessity before fueling with water.
If I'm completly wrong about these proposals just disregard.
Billd
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 04, 2008, 02:02:18 AM
Hi Ossie,

I'm a non electronics person who has been keeping an eye on the watercar1978 forum for 2 years now, and of late this forum,and I am gathering parts to build the 9v batt circuit supplied earlier - once this is done and the circuit understood (by myself!) then the next stage would be to convert that circuit to this latest one that you have just posted.

As the Siggen is just being used to replicate the high speed firing of the ICE, is it a simple matter to replace that whole aspect of the circuitry with the pos & neg from the strobe being wired directly to the pos & neg of the coil and then the inverter circuit tied in to the neg of the coil and the coil output just as it is in the latest diagram?

I just want to try and prove my replication in stages and attempt to understand some electronic basics while I go.

Many thanks - Stu (from Northern Ireland)

Hi stu,

It is a good idea to build the simple strobe device and see and understand how it work. With the other circuit, the sig gen is simply to replicate an ICE firing the ignition coil. But if you are considering trying the strobe circuit on an ICE, it will not serve your purpose as it is only capable of charging it's capacitor up about once every second. It is only being powered by a 9V battery after all. The strobe device is simply a demonstration device to shown how easy it is to explode water with little input power.

Regards,

Ossie


Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on July 04, 2008, 02:03:31 AM
UPDATE:

So, i got bored with bench tests, i have tried many design and they all worked great! Bright plasma flame and a loud snap.  ;D ;D

I wanted to move on to the next logical step. So i got out the BS 13 hp mower. I took the plug wire on the engine and used it in place of my bench test automotive coil (same theory) NOTHING WORKED!!!! As it seems, every time the DC is hooked up to the top of the plug, i get NO arc of any kind!! Without the DC hooked up i get a normal ignition arc. I have even went as far as to make a voltage doubler to go from 110VDC to almost 290vdc. STILL NOTHING!! Every design gave the same results...NADA!

I also installed a ammeter between the inverter and the battery. When i try the setups on the mower the meter does not even move at all when the motor is turning over.

 :-\ I am so lost now...  :-\
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 04, 2008, 02:17:03 AM
Ossie, I was looking over your latest schematic, the one with the inverter. The top half looks to be the same in function to a standard ignition, let's say for a single cylinder engine with a battery ignition system (like an old garden tractor). The bottom half has the inverter and the few diodes, caps and a coil that might be what's inside s1's 'can' we saw in the video's. What do you think?

RD

Hi retrod,

Correct. The top half of the circuit is simply simulating the ignition system of an ICE including the ignition coil. The bottom half is all that needs to be applied to an ICE if this circuit is to work on an ICE. But please note that I am note claiming that it will. I believe the next step for some of us is to prove IF it will work on and ICE. We have just been engineering the plasma discharge first.

Regards,

Ossie
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on July 04, 2008, 03:08:12 AM
UPDATE 2:

OK...i got it to work!!   ;D ;D ;D

In my effort to make it as if the plug was in the block, i put a a wire from the block to the the body of the plug (just as if it was in the block), that was sitting on the table. With the wire connected it does nothing....but with out it...STAND BACK!!!! lol GREAT plasma flame and sounds. But that does not help the problem that the plug still needs to be in the block.

I used the voltage doubler with a 330uf 400v cap through diodes to the top of the plug. I still had the ammeter hooked up, the plasma hit every time the engine revolved and the meter NEVER MOVED!!!!! It would seem to be VERY little or no draw!!

I feel much better now...BUT my 73" Mitsu TV died today  :'( :'( :'(
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: geovel56 on July 04, 2008, 03:24:12 AM
Hi Group,

Got my parts today.  I am GLAD Luc got moderator privileges to delete 90% of the garbage on this thread, as most threads tend to accumulate.

Koen and others... the purpose of this thread was to establish, develop and improve on A CIRCUIT to create a plasma arc.  All too often (as is the case here, and in most threads) people come in, read the first page and the last page without reading anything else in between, and then take up huge amounts of time (from others) to answer the very questions you are asking, but HAD YOU READ THE THREAD IN THE FIRST PLACE, the answers were already there.

As far as applying it to an ICE... we ALL already KNOW the plasma arc is the critical step and the rest has already been done by two people now (S1R and JCBX)!  Luc, myself, Ossie and a few others have been here from the start of this thread and working toward the goal established by this thread... AGAIN, to come up with a circuit that draws as little energy as possible, and still generate a powerful plasma arc.  Ossie, you have been a huge contributor, and I'd like to personally thank you for all your input.  Luc, you started this thread, and your vision must be commended as well, especially by taking the ORIGINAL position of FOCUSING ON THE CIRCUIT.

Dr. "S" took the words from my mouth with his EXACT comment about "crapsters" posting in here 100% off topic, introducing extraneous topics, and breaking the focus of this thread!  If anyone wants to contribute, please do so, ONLY ON TOPIC, but PLEASE stop posting things that are not DIRECTLY RELATED to our focus!  Personally, I'd rather see this thread have zero postings for days on end (which hopefully means people are actually experimenting) than to have to weed through post after post of Off Topic DRIVEL!   If you want to talk to someone, send them a personal message and keep it off the forum.  THIS IS NOT A CHATROOM!

If someone wishes to be part of the team effort here, then at least do some minimal research (even if its only to ACTUALLY read this ENTIRE thread) where much of the questions many are asking has already been answered.  DO A LITTLE WORK YOURSELF, EVEN IF ITS ONLY TO READ!  I am trying to avoid using this term, but I can't find one that doesn't sum it up completely... STOP BEING SO  LAZY!

If you don't have anything to add to the thread and the focus of this thread, kindly monitor it and read along, and learn, but PLEASE STOP POSTING OFF TOPIC. 

Nuff said! 

BACK ON TOPIC - My group is using the circuit posted by Ossie with the 10 - 1N4007 diodes and the 16 - 1N5404's, but with a 12VDC to 120VAC inverter.  We will then use the latest Ossie circuit with the car relay in it.  From there, my team will apply it to an ICE (1974 Chevy Blazer with 350 engine and 4 barrel carb, just like S1R's El Camino). 

WHEN all this works, hopefully we can devise a simple circuit to eliminate the inverter, as it seems to be too bulky (but a great tool for initial experimentation).  With improved circuit designs to reduce energy input, a big inverter is probably overkill, since right now, Ossie's last circuit is only drawing 60 watts. 

Our thought is to use a toroidal coil to supply the main power, and use a coil (plus other components)for each cylinder's plasma arc.  This should eliminate the need for an inverter, reduce overall size of the circuitry to make it easier to fit under the hood, and attempt to make it a "plug and play" module that can be used on ANY engine.

I will keep everyone informed of my group's progress, video record things as we go along and post them!  FOCUS is the key here to reduce input energy and have a high energy plasma output!

Regards,
Geo
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 04, 2008, 03:30:06 AM
UPDATE 2:

OK...i got it to work!!   ;D ;D ;D

In my effort to make it as if the plug was in the block, i put a a wire from the block to the the body of the plug (just as if it was in the block), that was sitting on the table. With the wire connected it does nothing....but with out it...STAND BACK!!!! lol GREAT plasma flame and sounds. But that does not help the problem that the plug still needs to be in the block.

I used the voltage doubler with a 330uf 400v cap through diodes to the top of the plug. I still had the ammeter hooked up, the plasma hit every time the engine revolved and the meter NEVER MOVED!!!!! It would seem to be VERY little or no draw!!

I feel much better now...BUT my 73" Mitsu TV died today  :'( :'( :'(

Congradulations  on  getting    your engine  turning over

It sounds  very promising

It is  one thing to  get it  done ........  But  it is  even better  if it is   efficient  too .



gary
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: buzneg on July 04, 2008, 03:48:36 AM
I got info from a big company who does this for Plus Detonation to make oxy-hydrogen. he said they use plused plasma, and that I won't find out what they use to catalyse it. I don't know if they made to gas to send it to the jet engine, or inside the engine. I said KOH, he didn't confirm or deny it. But KOH would probably also split up in the plasma, and be used as a fuel too. I was wondering if charging the water in a Hydrogen generator would help, it would add energy to it. H2 and O2 mixed in the water..
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 04, 2008, 05:37:30 AM
Blew up another inverter! Soon as I turned it on. Also tried a different ignition coil and still have to reverse the polarity on it to get a HV arc. I'm lost. It doesn't help that I don't understand exactly how the circuit works or that I don't really understand electronics that much so until somebody comes up with a fool proof circuit I give up!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: k4zep on July 04, 2008, 06:01:47 AM
Hi gang,

Simple Glow R/C model engine modified with small shop tools to make a possible working engine of the type discussed on this list.  Here is the progress (just disassembly for now with a lot of thought) and a short discussion on what you must do to make a "simple" plasma/spark engine work using an engine of this type. 

I am simply trying to make a proof of concept engine from what I have available.  I don't have a car I can modify, I don't have a lawnmower I can modify, I do have a small 25 cc weed whacker engine I could modify but don't really have the room.  I live in a condo, my workshop is a 2 X 4 closet (worlds smallest lab) so I do with what I have.

I won't go into the electronics portion of what we need as that has been beaten to death and being a retired R&D and industrial electronic tec. the electronics is a non issue to me.....There are so many ways to make it work, that it basically boils down to how you want to do it. 

Mechanically you have to understand what is required and go from there.  You also have to understand what you are working with when you use a 2 cycle model motor.  Read up at any number of places on the net how one of these motors work and then stop and think what you will have to do to use it in this application.

To make a operating engine of this size, you must have a low friction embodiment of a IC engine.  When you have less than 1 cubic inch displacement, things have to be free AND lubricated. 

You have to have a reliable way to deliver an atomized mist to a spark plug.

You have to have an accurate exaust valve system to adjust the timing on the engine.

So what it all boils down to is you need a well lubricated pump, with water injection a spark plug and a timing valve!.

This is what I am doing.  Engine used is a FOX 78 R/C engine, to be modified this way.

1.  Carburetor which is a very nice close tolerance rotary valve throttle body injection device is removed from the intake at the front of the engine and will be used as an misting injector/rotary valve timing device.

2.  Intake will be blocked.

3.  Crankcase will be ventilated with discrete porting to remove positive/negative pressure as piston goes up and down.  The bottom of the crankcase becomes a zero pressure device and is filled partially with a light oil to keep the main bearings and connecting rod bearings lubricated.  Essentially a splash lubrication engine like a multitude of small lawn mower engines.

3a.  A moderate 6" flywheel will be mounted on the crankshaft where a propeller would normally be.

4.  Piston rings are removed to remove friction and piston is used and stands on its own close tolerance.

5.  Glow plug removed from and hole filled in with JB weld slow dry.

6. Carb unit is drilled and tapped to receive a 1/4 X 32 model spark plug UNDER the atomizing main jet.

7.  Head is machined on top to receive the throttle unit and it essentially becomes a throttle body/injector/valve unit.

8. Operation of the top end of the engine is as follows:   The throttle body will be open about 300 degrees of time during 1 rotation so as the piston comes up, there is very little pressure in the top end of the engine at this point.  After TDC, the piston will suck air in the venturi, over the needle valve assembly, drawing a mist into the engine and on the spark plug immediately under the needle valve.  @ about 35 degrees, give or take after TDC on the down stroke, the throttle body rotary valve will be snapped closed via a cam or a solenoid.  (remember this is just a proof of concept) the plug will fire, piston will continue downward and bottom porting as built into the engine will open and pressure be vented.  Throttle body will open, and remain open until the next downward movement of piston. Ruff guess, rotary valve will be closed ONLY during power pulse, probably about 40-60 degrees.   I don't know yet if I will operate it as a two cycle with power pulse every stoke or 4 cycle, every other downward stroke, time will tell on that.  Top lube will be by intermittent light oiling of throttle body assembly, there will also be blow by of mist out of the throttle body during the up stroke but as it is only water!!!! who cares and it will also provide lubrication to the rotary valve......

This engine is not designed to run for hundreds of hours or at high RPM. 60 to 100 rpm will be just fine! I just want it to run.  Thats all for now.  Tomorrow, the 4th here in the USA, we have a big party and celebrate our "Independence" so will get serious over the weekend, still waiting for spark plugs to come in the mail.

Pictures here as to what I am working with.



Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: whopper1967 on July 04, 2008, 06:30:24 AM
Hey xbox,condolences on your tv.I was looking at your circuit diagram,what would happen if your coil wasnt grounded at the base of the plug?Could that possibly make any difference at all?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 04, 2008, 06:37:51 AM
I just remembered, S1R said something in a post a long time ago about using a seperate battery for the inverter. Maybe this is my problem, I need to isolate it. When I blew both of those inverters it was like it was feeding the 110 back into the inverter on the 12volt side. I have no trouble at all with using mains power and a rectifier, well not until today. I hooked up the primary side of the IC to a distributor I had laying around and was gonna use that to pulse it but when I hooked up the 110 to the circuit all hell broke loose. It blew up my rectifier and kicked the breaker. The distributor was laying on a metal table but the rest of the circuit was insulated. I guess it fed back thru the drill press that was on the same table somehow. This is why I'd like to know exactly how this circuit works, I mean the flow path of the electricity.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Tinker on July 04, 2008, 06:42:26 AM
K4zep

Thanks for heading into the ''NEXT STEP''.

The RC engine is a great candidate as it is as simple as an ICE can get.

THANK YOU and good luck.

Many here have focused on the circut but few if any have addressed the application based on what I see here, you would be the first. 

Be Well
Tinker   
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: whopper1967 on July 04, 2008, 06:43:01 AM
I could be wrong,but i thought he said he only used to batteries because when cranking starter it tended to kick out inverter due to starter drawing amps.
Title: Water Sparkplug Concept Duplicated Again
Post by: qiman on July 04, 2008, 06:44:10 AM
Great job Gotoluc and Ossie,

Check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l54wlbi0Szk

Not sure if you agree with the explanation, but the electroradiant event you have is fragmenting the heaviside flow away from the conductive wire.

Take care,
Aaron
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 04, 2008, 06:47:25 AM
I just remembered, S1R said something in a post a long time ago about using a seperate battery for the inverter. Maybe this is my problem, I need to isolate it. When I blew both of those inverters it was like it was feeding the 110 back into the inverter on the 12volt side. I have no trouble at all with using mains power and a rectifier, well not until today. I hooked up the primary side of the IC to a distributor I had laying around and was gonna use that to pulse it but when I hooked up the 110 to the circuit all hell broke loose. It blew up my rectifier and kicked the breaker. The distributor was laying on a metal table but the rest of the circuit was insulated. I guess it fed back thru the drill press that was on the same table somehow. This is why I'd like to know exactly how this circuit works, I mean the flow path of the electricity.


It  could be that    your   inverter  was  grounded somehow

If you  remember   S1r    made a point  of  explaining that the   inverter and I believe the  relay box had  to be insulated .... the only  point that the  inverter circuit  connect with  any other  circuit is  at the spark plug .

gary 
 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 04, 2008, 07:03:06 AM
Blew up another inverter! Soon as I turned it on. Also tried a different ignition coil and still have to reverse the polarity on it to get a HV arc. I'm lost. It doesn't help that I don't understand exactly how the circuit works or that I don't really understand electronics that much so until somebody comes up with a fool proof circuit I give up!

Hi bumfuzzled, which circuit are you using?

At everyone, I have posted this before but I will say it again since some don't read all my posts. Look at the first page of this topic again. I have updated it and my circuit. You need to re-read page one since there are many text changes which can help you.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 04, 2008, 07:03:07 AM
Blew up another inverter! Soon as I turned it on. Also tried a different ignition coil and still have to reverse the polarity on it to get a HV arc. I'm lost. It doesn't help that I don't understand exactly how the circuit works or that I don't really understand electronics that much so until somebody comes up with a fool proof circuit I give up!

Hi bumfuzzled and all,

I understand that many may be eager to attempt to start building these circuits to test them but I must stress that unless you understand how they operate, as well as have some experience in building and testing electronic circuits, it is likely to be an expensive and possibly also dangerous excercise for you. So please understand what you are building and how it works before you proceed as there are many traps for the inexperienced.

One these traps that is most likely the cause of people blowing up their all solid state inverters is that the HV pulse from an ignition coil can be either positive or negative. In all of my circuits, the ignition coil pulse is always positive. But in practise, it can be either.

To accommodate this you will need to make sure your inverter's input and output is isolated fully from the ignition coil circuit. There must not be any common ground connections. You must then test the polarity of you ignition coil's output pulse by using a long string of LV diodes or some HV microwave oven diodes, preferable 3 or four in series, to prove if the HV pulse coming out of your ignition coil is negative or positive. Once you have proved this, then when you connect the output of the diode string from you inverter circuit, you will connect it to the spark plug positive if your ignition coil pulse is positive or to the spark plug ground, if your ignition coil pulse is negative.

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on July 04, 2008, 07:32:02 AM
Hey xbox,condolences on your tv.I was looking at your circuit diagram,what would happen if your coil wasnt grounded at the base of the plug?Could that possibly make any difference at all?
Thanx wopper for your kind thoughts....LOL Just one more thin i have to fix

ANYWAY..If it was not grounded...it would not arc at all. It seems to be a catch 22 i need ground for the HV and ground for the DC...but not both at the same time.  :-\
Title: Re: Water Sparkplug Concept Duplicated Again
Post by: gotoluc on July 04, 2008, 07:34:32 AM
Great job Gotoluc and Ossie,

Check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l54wlbi0Szk

Not sure if you agree with the explanation, but the electroradiant event you have is fragmenting the heaviside flow away from the conductive wire.

Take care,
Aaron

Hi Aaron, thanks for doing this great video and posting it here for us to see. Your explanation sounds good ;) we will hopefully all be looking at this.

Keep us updated and please feel free to copy my first page of this topic which I just updated the text and my simple schematic and please also include calanan's great posts to help spread this information at the Energetic Forum also.

Thanks

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: greendoor on July 04, 2008, 07:57:10 AM
Powering a car is going to be fraught with difficulty.  The water freezing issue could be a show stopper for many.  Then there is the rusting, and the bent con-rods when the cylinders hydraulic ...

Vehicle emmissions shouldn't be a big problem - but I expect a nasty backlash from government authorities, on whatever trumped up charges they can think of.

There might be easier solutions for putting this effect to use.  What about a water pump arrangement?  This could prove overunity, and be used to power conventional electric generators or heatpumps or compressors. 

I'm thinking a small pressure vessel with a couple of non-return valves as inlet and outlets.  An open-to-atmosphere gravity tank would maintain a head of pressure on this tank, to maintain a constant supply of water to this pressure vessel.  The spark plug would fire at timed intervals, and the blast would force water up a pipe to the gravity tank - perhaps through a turbine load. 

Although very simple, this could be very dangerous.  I would recommend building in a failsafe rupture disk - or a vent with some rubber hose that could blow in the event of an excessive pressure build up.  The device could be buried or housed in a concrete sheild or whatever.  I'm thinking generous pipe sizes - the idea to minimize the pressure and maximise the flow rate.  Very small sparks @ very low power, creating a big flow is going to impress people that overunity has ARRIVED!

A simple device like this could be replicated widely and put into agricultural use - the economic advantages would not be lost on most people who have to pay for the priviledge to pump water.  Maybe this could purify the water at the same time ...


EDIT Do we know if a completely submerged plug will fire?  If the theory is correct, the energy is from converting liquid water to vapour state.  That suggests that starting with vapour is wrong - can we start with liquid water?

If an air gap is actually required, a couple of probes in the pressure vessel could sense when water had refilled to a set level and trigger the spark ...

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: tishatang on July 04, 2008, 08:08:15 AM
@All
One problem in converting small ICE's,  is that they use a magneto system.  There is a permanent magnet embedded in the flywheel.  This allows only a small change in timing for most of these engines.  There is no distributor to twist to get a 25  degree retard of timing.  To get proper timing with these engines you could collect the magneto discharge into a high voltage cap and discharge the cap with an optical sensor or something you can adjust on the output shaft.  Or, since you have to have an external timing sensor, you may as well use a conventional ignition coil and forget the magneto and dangerous to have charged HV cap. 

I am not a motorcycle guy, But I seem to remember my son's old Honda had coils and a distributor.  If so, then maybe motorcycle engines solve the timing problem?

Tishatang
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: greendoor on July 04, 2008, 08:18:22 AM
@All
One problem in converting small ICE's,  is that they use a magneto system.  There is a permanent magnet embedded in the flywheel.  This allows only a small change in timing for most of these engines.  There is no distributor to twist to get a 25  degree retard of timing.  To get proper timing with these engines you could collect the magneto discharge into a high voltage cap and discharge the cap with an optical sensor or something you can adjust on the output shaft.  Or, since you have to have an external timing sensor, you may as well use a conventional ignition coil and forget the magneto and dangerous to have charged HV cap. 

I am not a motorcycle guy, But I seem to remember my son's old Honda had coils and a distributor.  If so, then maybe motorcycle engines solve the timing problem?

Tishatang

Nothing that some electronics couldn't fix.  The pulse from the magneto could be used to just as a timing pulse.  I believe this system will require more Retarded timing, which can be achieved with a small time delay.  If Advance is required, an even longer time delay would give a phase shift of slightly less than 360 degrees which achieves the same thing.  The trick is to make the time delay track the RPM - but nothing that some electronics couldn't solve.


Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: greendoor on July 04, 2008, 08:46:23 AM
Interesting thought from  http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4139758.html

Quote
With the growth of the offshore industry it has become essential to be able to make welds under water to a standard that satisfies certain nationally and internationally recognised welding codes. Attempts have been made to weld underwater without taking any steps to protect the welding arc from water. These have been unsuccessful, partly because water entering the arc becomes dissociated and the hydrogen thus formed is dissolved in the weld pool. The rapid quenching effect of the water on the weldments creates hard martensitic structures in the heat affected zone (HAZ) which are susceptible to hydrogen induced cracking, owing to hydrogen diffusion into the heat affected zone, particularly in joints subject to restraint.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: aether22 on July 04, 2008, 08:55:27 AM
Blew up another inverter! Soon as I turned it on. Also tried a different ignition coil and still have to reverse the polarity on it to get a HV arc. I'm lost. It doesn't help that I don't understand exactly how the circuit works or that I don't really understand electronics that much so until somebody comes up with a fool proof circuit I give up!

I actually checked to make sure I wasn't somehow accidentally on the wrong page, you seriously need to stop buying inverters!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: capacitor70 on July 04, 2008, 09:40:33 AM
WATCH WORKING s1r9a9m9 REPLICATION

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnUv6M0N6z4

details
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3977.new.html
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 04, 2008, 10:15:57 AM
WATCH WORKING s1r9a9m9 REPLICATION

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnUv6M0N6z4

details
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3977.new.html

Hi capacitor70 and all,

One thing I'd like to point out here in regard to the credibility of video claims of water only powered engines. Ben and I have recently discussed how they have a distinct and peculiar noise they make when they fire. It is almost like what an engine sounds like when the spark plug is out and it is turned over. They sound also does not have the same bang to it as with a normal petrol engine.

So I hope this video is the real thing here as it fits these characteristics just as s1r9a9m9's videos do but hell, I would just like to shake this guys hand for doing this on a motorcyle engine with just a kick start! The guys got a whole lot of optimism and it is people like this who can make the difference for all of us here.

Soon he will get his air-waterfuel mixture right and have that engine running continuously and when this happens, I am sure we will be seeing many more videos of more people doing this same. So let's all cross our fingers here...

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: send_to_nice on July 04, 2008, 11:06:26 AM
There have been some really good posts here in the last 24 hours that echo my current sentiments - that we really need to establish what we are working towards here. I gather from some of the later posts that this thread is all about the spark itself and the circuitry needed to produce it efficiently and reliably. I must admit, I am a little more comfortable with this knowledge as I did sometimes wonder if this thread wasn't just a whole lot of misdirected enthusiasm that was ultimately going to lead us nowhere.

I'm glad we seem to have established the purpose of this thread. I do think that there are a lot of highly talented people here and, just like any open source project, much talent is wasted if it's not channelled effectively towards a bigger plan and common purpose. I also think that we should acknowledge and use the talents of those who are skilled at things other than electronics in order to make this project a reality.

So, what I personally think we need to do is come up with a plan of where we ultimately want to go then divide and conquer. Some say this could pose challenges for auto engines, others say stick to generators, others want to replace diesel with water. What if we made this a 'project'? Start our own forum, move this thread there, and create other threads for discussing aspects beyond circuitry. I have limited knowledge of electronics, a heavily limited budget, and not much spare time. So does this mean I have nothing useful to offer this project? Of course not! There are all sorts of factors to consider before we come up with a plan for what we are aiming for, but I think we need a roadmap so people can see progress, and perhaps a table that shows who has done what and when. It seems there's a lot of people here who say "I just bought a such and such but i'm tired so i'll try it tomorrow" but how many of us go back to read their post explaining how it went? If we do read it, do we realise it's the same person? Do they actually post their findings at all? I don't know - I find it hard to keep track of who has done what.

I'm just terrified of losing our key talents and a record of their progress when people just disappear. Speaking of which, everyone always quotes s1r... Where is he? Bring him on I say! Someone must know him, so why is he not here??

I hope this topic stays here because it being deleted would be a classic case in point of what I want to avoid - one track mindedness. This project needs a soul. Let's give it one.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: stu on July 04, 2008, 12:24:30 PM
Hi stu,

It is a good idea to build the simple strobe device and see and understand how it work. With the other circuit, the sig gen is simply to replicate an ICE firing the ignition coil. But if you are considering trying the strobe circuit on an ICE, it will not serve your purpose as it is only capable of charging it's capacitor up about once every second. It is only being powered by a 9V battery after all. The strobe device is simply a demonstration device to shown how easy it is to explode water with little input power.

Regards,

Ossie




Thanks Ossie, but what I was thinking of was purely about proving the new circuit on the bench (my build quality) - with this in mind is it okay to drive it with the srobe, in the way I had mentioned, before considering attaching it to an ICE?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: k4zep on July 04, 2008, 01:07:06 PM
WATCH WORKING s1r9a9m9 REPLICATION

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnUv6M0N6z4

details
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3977.new.html

Hi Cap70,

Wow, I feel I'm running at the back of the pack here.  You obviously have your electronics down pat for your engine but you have a real water/fuel delivery problem.  A carburetor is designed to atomize gas into a vapor, mix the correct amount of air and then the engine runs on it.  The plasma process doesn't use a vapor from a carb but I think needs a wetting of the plug with water, injection/mist, etc.  But my hat is off to you!!!! 

The strange thunka thunkkkkkkk sound of all the water engines I have heard run so far,  I suspect are caused by the timing firing position and the air intake noise we are not used to hearing as it sucks in air ....

The funny thing is it might be possible that this engine doesn't need intake air to run, only displacement for the generated hydrogen/oxygen gas to burn plus the pressure wave from the break down process to expand on the down stroke of the engine!  If this theory is correct as to what I hear when an engine is running, it has very little to do with compression as compression is going away when the plug fires somewhere after TDC (35 degrees?). 

Anyway, all keep at it..............I am encouraged!!!!!  Now I have to go peel potatoes for tater salad for this afternoon, Honey doooosss,
motor can wait. Family and boat trip for 8 this afternoon can't.


Ben
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: qiman on July 04, 2008, 01:07:27 PM
make sure your inverter's input and output is isolated fully from the ignition coil circuit. There must not be any common ground connections.

Hi Callanan,

I enjoyed your vids and posts.

My inverter had built in protection so it simply trips itself to prevent overload. Then I simply turn it off then back on and it is fine.

There are some very specific ways to design the circuit so that worrying about the isolation is not even an issue. There is extra benefits to this that I will discuss later.

Anyway, if someone wants most of the circuit you're showing for free...go to any grocery store that processes photos and tell them you're doing a science project and ask for some disposable cameras. You will get free strobes, batts and photoflash caps. You won't drive around the planet with that :), but it is free usually and is enough for anyone to demo the effect to themselves. Other than the disposable camera that was tossed, battery, plug, wire and ignition coil.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 04, 2008, 02:20:29 PM
@All
One problem in converting small ICE's,  is that they use a magneto system.  There is a permanent magnet embedded in the flywheel.  This allows only a small change in timing for most of these engines.  There is no distributor to twist to get a 25  degree retard of timing.  To get proper timing with these engines you could collect the magneto discharge into a high voltage cap and discharge the cap with an optical sensor or something you can adjust on the output shaft.  Or, since you have to have an external timing sensor, you may as well use a conventional ignition coil and forget the magneto and dangerous to have charged HV cap. 

I am not a motorcycle guy, But I seem to remember my son's old Honda had coils and a distributor.  If so, then maybe motorcycle engines solve the timing problem?

Tishatang

All you have to do is remove the key from the flywheel then you can set the timing wherever you want. Just be sure to tighten the flywheel back down real good. Yes there's some guess work but you can get it close enough. This is what the go kart racers do to them.

I have an old Honda 550 4 cylinder sitting in the shed that would be easy as far as getting the timing right but 4 cylinders would be much harder to get running than one cylinder so I'll stick with the little B&S for now.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Koen1 on July 04, 2008, 02:48:34 PM
Alright, alright, perhaps I'm just a bit overanxious to get to the engine part. :)
I'll turn it down a bit. ;)

I just got the impression we were already doing very well with the plasma ignition
and the circuit that I thought we might be ready to move to the engine part of
the story already.
And since s1r9a9m9 has been posting about his working V8, I thought "here we go". :)

But if you guys want to work out the circuit some more and come up with a
"standardised" circuit for this before we start trying things in engines,
that's fine with me.
Don't let my enthousiasm complicate your circuit tests. :)

@xbox hacker: hehe, I see someone else is anxious to get this to work
in an engine setup ;D So, let me see if I got you: you used a mower engine,
pulled out the spark plug, hooked it to the circuit and adjusted some things
so it worked and produced the plasma ignition effect just like Ossie and
Lucs curcuit does...  But it only works if the plug is not "grounded" to the body
of the mower? Hmm...
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 04, 2008, 02:48:48 PM
Hi bumfuzzled and all,

I understand that many may be eager to attempt to start building these circuits to test them but I must stress that unless you understand how they operate, as well as have some experience in building and testing electronic circuits, it is likely to be an expensive and possibly also dangerous excercise for you. So please understand what you are building and how it works before you proceed as there are many traps for the inexperienced.

One these traps that is most likely the cause of people blowing up their all solid state inverters is that the HV pulse from an ignition coil can be either positive or negative. In all of my circuits, the ignition coil pulse is always positive. But in practise, it can be either.

To accommodate this you will need to make sure your inverter's input and output is isolated fully from the ignition coil circuit. There must not be any common ground connections. You must then test the polarity of you ignition coil's output pulse by using a long string of LV diodes or some HV microwave oven diodes, preferable 3 or four in series, to prove if the HV pulse coming out of your ignition coil is negative or positive. Once you have proved this, then when you connect the output of the diode string from you inverter circuit, you will connect it to the spark plug positive if your ignition coil pulse is positive or to the spark plug ground, if your ignition coil pulse is negative.

Regards,

Ossie



Thanks Ossie, I'll give this a try and I'm also gonna put the inverter on a seperate battery just to be safe because when it blew up I was not pulsing the high voltage. I had the entire circuit hooked up and ready to go but as soon as I turned on the inverter it blew. So do you think since I have to reverse polarity on the IC that I need the diodes on the other side??

Quote
Hi bumfuzzled, which circuit are you using?

At everyone, I have posted this before but I will say it again since some don't read all my posts. Look at the first page of this topic again. I have updated it and my circuit. You need to re-read page one since there are many text changes which can help you.

Luc

I'm using Ossie's circuit but I will go back and read the first page again and see if I can learn something. Thanks guys for all the help yer giving everybody, especially me because as my username states electricity bumfuzzles me!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: k4zep on July 04, 2008, 02:52:23 PM
All you have to do is remove the key from the flywheel then you can set the timing wherever you want. Just be sure to tighten the flywheel back down real good. Yes there's some guess work but you can get it close enough. This is what the go kart racers do to them.

I have an old Honda 550 4 cylinder sitting in the shed that would be easy as far as getting the timing right but 4 cylinders would be much harder to get running than one cylinder so I'll stick with the little B&S for now.


Right on.

Please realize this is NOT an Carb. vaporizer ignition device.  What a difference an on demand direct distilled water mist injection system on the plug, to the head would make!!!!!  A idealized injector system would be slightly different than a normal fuel oriented injected mist to vapor system in that it would be oriented towards the plug and not as direct into the combustion chamber only.   My kingdom for a workspace and a machine shop!  If folks on this list are not excited now, just roll over and watch the Simpson's and forget about it! 

Ben
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 04, 2008, 02:55:18 PM
Thanks Ossie, but what I was thinking of was purely about proving the new circuit on the bench (my build quality) - with this in mind is it okay to drive it with the srobe, in the way I had mentioned, before considering attaching it to an ICE?

Hi stu,

Only if you intend your ICE to run at 60 rpm at most for a single cylinder 2 stroke or 120 rpm for a single cylinder 4 stroke. Just put your points in series with the output of the xenon tube to fire at the right time.

Regards,

Ossie
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: k4zep on July 04, 2008, 02:59:18 PM
Thanks Ossie, I'll give this a try and I'm also gonna put the inverter on a seperate battery just to be safe because when it blew up I was not pulsing the high voltage. I had the entire circuit hooked up and ready to go but as soon as I turned on the inverter it blew. So do you think since I have to reverse polarity on the IC that I need the diodes on the other side??

I'm using Ossie's circuit but I will go back and read the first page again and see if I can learn something. Thanks guys for all the help yer giving everybody, especially me because as my username states electricity bumfuzzles me!

Try a 110VAC light bulb in series with the high side of the inverter/diode chain. Put it between the INVERTER output and the DIODE. This will protect the inverter and fix the big spike on it during pulses! It will light up when motor is running and limit current. Ossie is dead on about polarities!  In that video on YouTube of the kick start motorcycle motor that almost runs, notice the bulb.


Ben
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 04, 2008, 03:25:08 PM
Alright, alright, perhaps I'm just a bit overanxious to get to the engine part. :)
I'll turn it down a bit. ;)

I just got the impression we were already doing very well with the plasma ignition
and the circuit that I thought we might be ready to move to the engine part of
the story already.
And since s1r9a9m9 has been posting about his working V8, I thought "here we go". :)

But if you guys want to work out the circuit some more and come up with a
"standardised" circuit for this before we start trying things in engines,
that's fine with me.
Don't let my enthousiasm complicate your circuit tests. :)

@xbox hacker: hehe, I see someone else is anxious to get this to work
in an engine setup ;D So, let me see if I got you: you used a mower engine,
pulled out the spark plug, hooked it to the circuit and adjusted some things
so it worked and produced the plasma ignition effect just like Ossie and
Lucs curcuit does...  But it only works if the plug is not "grounded" to the body
of the mower? Hmm...

Hi Koen,

I really only can answer your sentiments here by stressing how important it is for people to get the electronics and the discharge plasma right before trying to apply it to an engine. Even though we can present it as simple, for many lesser experienced, in practice I am sure it is not simple for them. But we must endevour to assist people to understand and get the electronics and discharge right. This is because if people were to jump straight in and try and get a motor running, without the correct plasma discharge, they will fail and if many people fail they will report it as so and then sooner than later everyone will be saying it does not work, cannot work and never had worked. So where as I applaud people for going ahead and trying to get an engine to run I am hesitant to encourage them to do so before they are able to understand and get the electronics and the correct plasma discharge occuring in their spark plugs, because if they don't they are doomed to failure.

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 04, 2008, 03:29:01 PM
I just watched capacitor70 video. The funny sound you hear that some of you say is distinct to the water engines like this one and S1r's is due to the muffler being removed. Go take the muffler off yer lawnmower and start it up and you'll see what I mean, it's sort of a popping sound.

He says it will only run with the choke on, my guess is that you gotta remember water is heavier than gasoline so it might have a harder time getting sucked up thru the venturi than gasoline. Also when you choke a carb it sucks more fuel in, maybe water needs a richer mixture than gasoine so you'll have to jet the carb bigger. These are things to play with once I get it installed on a motor.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 04, 2008, 03:37:58 PM
Thanks Ossie, I'll give this a try and I'm also gonna put the inverter on a seperate battery just to be safe because when it blew up I was not pulsing the high voltage. I had the entire circuit hooked up and ready to go but as soon as I turned on the inverter it blew. So do you think since I have to reverse polarity on the IC that I need the diodes on the other side??

I'm using Ossie's circuit but I will go back and read the first page again and see if I can learn something. Thanks guys for all the help yer giving everybody, especially me because as my username states electricity bumfuzzles me!

Hi bumfuzzled,

You need to prove the polarity first so that you know and understand why you are connecting the output of the diode string to either the high pin or the base of the spark plug. To prove the polarity coming out of your ignition coil you must simply test which direction the spark travels through a string if diodes. If you get a spark with the test string of diodes pointing to the engine ground then the ignition coils output is positive and you need to connect the power supply output diode string to the high pin of the spark plug. If you get a spark with the test string of diodes pointing to the ignition coil then you need to connect the power supply output diode string to the ground of the spark plug. This polarity test using a test string of diodes is done between the ignition coil output and the engine ground only.

Regards,

Ossie
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: vlpe on July 04, 2008, 03:42:53 PM
anybody can answer: why use inverter, if the current is being rectified just after the inverter??  Thanks a lot
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 04, 2008, 03:47:10 PM
I just watched capacitor70 video. The funny sound you hear that some of you say is distinct to the water engines like this one and S1r's is due to the muffler being removed. Go take the muffler off yer lawnmower and start it up and you'll see what I mean, it's sort of a popping sound.

He says it will only run with the choke on, my guess is that you gotta remember water is heavier than gasoline so it might have a harder time getting sucked up thru the venturi than gasoline. Also when you choke a carb it sucks more fuel in, maybe water needs a richer mixture than gasoine so you'll have to jet the carb bigger. These are things to play with once I get it installed on a motor.

Hi bumfuzzled,

I beg to differ about the cause of the sound. I have ran many a petrol engine without a muffler in my time and I am sure most will agree with me that it is not something you put up with for long. A petrol engine without a muffler is a terribly loud sort of cracking sound.

But I do want to point out another thing we have noticed on these supposed water engines and that is that there does appear to be something like water vapour coming out of the exhaust and not smoke as that you would expect from a petrol enine. This exhausted water vapour soon just dissapears and pretty quickly becomes invisible or falls downwards.

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: petersone on July 04, 2008, 03:48:17 PM
Hi vlpe
I think it's to get a higher voltage,suppose you could use mains or a bunch of 12v batteries.
Someone will tell us if I'm wrong.
happy hunting
peter
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 04, 2008, 03:48:37 PM
Another thing to think about is these motors with a magneto and points have a waste spark at the top of the exhaust stroke. Is the inverter able to charge the cap up quick enough everytime for both sparks?? You electronics gurus will have to figure that one out. A motor running at 3000 rpm with a waste spark will pulse the HV 3000 times a minute so that's 50 times a second, can the inverter keep up??
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 04, 2008, 03:52:45 PM
anybody can answer: why use inverter, if the current is being rectified just after the inverter??  Thanks a lot

Hi vlpe,

My tests have shown that you need at least 90-100 volts minimum to cause a plasma discharge across the ignition spark in a spark plug set for a standard gap. An inverter raises 12 volts to 110 or 240 volts for this purpose. Many other methods and DC power supplies can be used for this purpose. But considering the relatively cheap price of inverters these days, it is quite convienient to use one. As long as you know what your doing and don't blow it up...

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 04, 2008, 03:55:14 PM
Hi bumfuzzled,

I beg to differ about the cause of the sound. I have ran many a petrol engine without a muffler in my time and I am sure most will agree with me that it is not something you put up with for long. A petrol engine without a muffler is a terribly loud sort of cracking sound.

But I do want to point out another thing we have noticed on these supposed water engines and that is that there does appear to be something like water vapour coming out of the exhaust and not smoke as that you would expect from a petrol enine. This exhausted water vapour soon just dissapears and pretty quickly becomes invisible or falls downwards.

Regards,

Ossie



Yes they are etremely loud without a muffler but yer listening to a video so yer not getting the full dynamics of the sound. My neighbor was mowing his yard the other day without a muffler on it and it sounded just like these motors, he was a good 100 yards away so the loudness of the motor was not there for me to hear. I could hear that distinctive pop. I've ran mowers, motorcycles and other small engines without muflers and yes they are extremely loud but they all also have that same distinct pop. With water it may not have the loudness with it but there is only one way to find out so off I go to experiment.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 04, 2008, 04:03:07 PM
Another thing to think about is these motors with a magneto and points have a waste spark at the top of the exhaust stroke. Is the inverter able to charge the cap up quick enough everytime for both sparks?? You electronics gurus will have to figure that one out. A motor running at 3000 rpm with a waste spark will pulse the HV 3000 times a minute so that's 50 times a second, can the inverter keep up??

Hi bumfuzzled,

Please see the last circuit and results I posted as follows:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.msg109796.html#msg109796

I have run this circuit up to 100Hz with no problems. At 70Hz it only uses 5 amps at 12V on the inverter's input. The inverter was delivering only 60 watts where it is designed to deliver up to 300 watts continuously. I know you have been blowing up inverters and are trying to do this but please try and read and understand all of the previous posts regarding the circuits. Get someone to help you if you need to. This may help you to have more success.

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on July 04, 2008, 04:20:27 PM
@xbox hacker: hehe, I see someone else is anxious to get this to work
in an engine setup ;D So, let me see if I got you: you used a mower engine,
pulled out the spark plug, hooked it to the circuit and adjusted some things
so it worked and produced the plasma ignition effect just like Ossie and
Lucs curcuit does...  But it only works if the plug is not "grounded" to the body
of the mower? Hmm...
Yes, that is correct, but obviously it wouldnt work if the plug was in the motor...LOL

I think the best part was the ammeter did move when fireing. But now i killed the starting gear, so i got to try to find a new one.  :-\
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 04, 2008, 04:33:20 PM
Hi bumfuzzled,

Please see the last circuit and results I posted as follows:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.msg109796.html#msg109796

I have run this circuit up to 100Hz with no problems. At 70Hz it only uses 5 amps at 12V on the inverter's input. The inverter was delivering only 60 watts where it is designed to deliver up to 300 watts continuously. I know you have been blowing up inverters and are trying to do this but please try and read and understand all of the previous posts regarding the circuits. Get someone to help you if you need to. This may help you to have more success.

Regards,

Ossie



I remember you posting that now that you mention it but my point is (and I guess I should have stated it) that on a V8 motor you've got 8 times the pulsing going on of that of a single cylinder motor. So at 3000 rpm on a V8 motor you've got it pulsing at 200 times a second. I recall S1R saying his car would only idle, someting to think about. I'm not trying to cause problems so don't think I am, I'm just bringing up legit questions. I'm with the other guy that said if people try this circuit and it don't work because, like me, they don't know electronics or because it will only let the motor hit a few times or only idle then you'll have people out there saying that it doesn't work. I want this to work just as much as anybody out there.


EDIT: I edited this post because I forgot that a V8 does not have a waste spark. The distributor is turned by the cam and it turns half the speed the crankshaft does so there is no waste spark.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: tishatang on July 04, 2008, 04:34:05 PM
@bumfuzzled

Thanks for the tip to change the timing.  I am not a small engine mechanic.  It seems to me, I remember years ago reading using offset keys to change timing.  Of course those guys had a machine shop to get the timing exactly where they wanted it.

It all seems moot because Cap70 answered me on another thread that his motor had no altered timing.  This seems contradictory to what I recall the original guy said with the running V-8, that the timing was retarded 25 degrees.  It is also moot for me because he also said two-cycle engines will not work because the water sits on the piston.  He said to use 4-cycle with high compression.  So that leaves out my electric start two-cycle engine.  Unless maybe the water was pre misted instead of liquid?

I just had a thought for the day someone is ready for a big engine.
In my old hot-rodding days they had belt driven Paxton centrifugal superchargers.  If you installed one after the carb, the high speed fan would help mix the water droplets before the engine.   

tishatang
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 04, 2008, 04:40:17 PM
@bumfuzzled

Thanks for the tip to change the timing.  I am not a small engine mechanic.  It seems to me, I remember years ago reading using offset keys to change timing.  Of course those guys had a machine shop to get the timing exactly where they wanted it.

It all seems moot because Cap70 answered me on another thread that his motor had no altered timing.  This seems contradictory to what I recall the original guy said with the running V-8, that the timing was retarded 25 degrees.  It is also moot for me because he also said two-cycle engines will not work because the water sits on the piston.  He said to use 4-cycle with high compression.  So that leaves out my electric start two-cycle engine.  Unless maybe the water was pre misted instead of liquid?

I just had a thought for the day someone is ready for a big engine.
In my old hot-rodding days they had belt driven Paxton centrifugal superchargers.  If you installed one after the carb, the high speed fan would help mix the water droplets before the engine.   

tishatang


I'm not sure what he means by it sits on the piston but a 2 stroke is not a good idea because the fuel/air mixture goes thru the crankcase first, that's why you mix the oil with it, to lube the bearings on the crank and rod. If you run just water thru it it will seize up pretty quickly.

I have a Trans Am sitting in the garage with a roots supercharger on it and yes the thought has crossed my mind of one day runing it on water. That would have many benefits that I won't go into at the moment.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: allcanadian on July 04, 2008, 04:44:29 PM
I think EV Gray used a circuit almost identical to the one posted, my understanding was that a HV source was used to produce a plasma arc across two conductors, this plasma would then conduct a large 12v current source(batteries) across the conductors. Plasma is a perfect conductor thus the HV arc was used as a means to switch a large current source on and off much like ionization does in radio tubes. Because the HV arc controls the duration time of the large current source the discharge time can be made extremely small. As well there must be two currents flowing in the conducting space, one high voltage/low amps the other low voltage/high amps which is interesting in itself. This small duration high energy impulse between the conductors was said to produce "radiant" effects that EV Gray used to power an electric motor and recharge his batteries. There is the possibility this is a very "natural" process, when we consider lightning we have always thought that the discharge is a high voltage/high current discharge. But maybe the high voltage discharge in lightning is nothing more than a conducting path for the naturally occurring potential gradient (100v/m)found in earths atmosphere--the current source. Nicola Tesla in his "colorado notes" also mentions the fact that lightning appears to be "thicker" at its root nearest the earth and that he had measured standing waves in earths atmosphere produced by lightning strikes.
Very interesting stuff  ;D
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 04, 2008, 05:09:29 PM
Hi everyone, just to let you all know I posted this reply to Super God's post at the other topic.

Luc

I don't know why luc created the other thread.  We have gotten excellent results with capacitor70's circuit.  User jcbx6 over in the waterfuel1978 group has gotten his volvo to run on water with the same circuit capcitor70 is using.  So over here we are making progress rapidly.  The postal service is slower than molasses so I still have to wait before I can get mine working too.

By the way, I don't think this system uses THAT much electricity that it would drain a battery.  You would need two, however, because the starter motor drags down the voltage so much it would put the inverter in self protect mode.

Looking good so far, full steam ahead.

Hi Sg, I created the other thread because I found that water explosion could be achieved without a large capacitive discharge and that seems to be very interesting and worth looking at just that. Also please note that S1R has said his system does not use capacitors.  So, in order to not create confusion in this thread since you are using a different approach I started a new topic. At this time my updated circuit (on page one) of the topic I started uses only 1uf or 2uf depending on the inverter output.

Are you sure user jcbx6 at the waterfuel1978 group is saying his Volvo is working on water at this time?

@capacitor70 my congratulations :D to you in demonstrating that it is truly possible to get a ICE to run on water ;)

Keep up this important research :) we will find the way to get this done one way or another.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: k4zep on July 04, 2008, 05:30:25 PM
Hi everyone, just to let you all know I posted this reply to Super God's post at the other topic.

Luc

Hi Sg, I created the other thread because I found that water explosion could be achieved without a large capacitive discharge and that seems to be very interesting and worth looking at just that. Also please note that S1R has said his system does not use capacitors.  So, in order to not create confusion in this thread since you are using a different approach I started a new topic. At this time my updated circuit (on page one) of the topic I started uses only 1uf or 2uf depending on the inverter output.

Are you sure user jcbx6 at the waterfuel1978 group is saying his Volvo is working on water at this time?

@capacitor70 my congratulations :D to you in demonstrating that it is truly possible to get a ICE to run on water ;)

Keep up this important research :) we will find the way to get this done one way or another.

Luc


Hi Gang,

Remember, a  inverter rectified via a 1/2 wave 110/220 V Peak output pulse has several amps of capacity @ the inverters output per cycle of output.  I'm sure it would work without the cap.......apples and oranges here.  Cap just averages/stores energy and provides more power to the spark during the burst of plasma.  Again, a lamp in series sure would help prevent overcurrent in the inverter from the plasma flow, a medieval current limiter!  A spark coil with a second winding to provide a high current AC 130 V pulse in phase with the HV output would be sort of neat!  But that's another story.

I thought the kick start motorcycle engine in that video was a 2 cycle?????

Ben

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 04, 2008, 05:30:31 PM
I think EV Gray used a circuit almost identical to the one posted, my understanding was that a HV source was used to produce a plasma arc across two conductors, this plasma would then conduct a large 12v current source(batteries) across the conductors. Plasma is a perfect conductor thus the HV arc was used as a means to switch a large current source on and off much like ionization does in radio tubes. Because the HV arc controls the duration time of the large current source the discharge time can be made extremely small. As well there must be two currents flowing in the conducting space, one high voltage/low amps the other low voltage/high amps which is interesting in itself. This small duration high energy impulse between the conductors was said to produce "radiant" effects that EV Gray used to power an electric motor and recharge his batteries. There is the possibility this is a very "natural" process, when we consider lightning we have always thought that the discharge is a high voltage/high current discharge. But maybe the high voltage discharge in lightning is nothing more than a conducting path for the naturally occurring potential gradient (100v/m)found in earths atmosphere--the current source.
Very interesting stuff  ;D

Hi allcanadian, thanks for looking at this topic. I do believe there maybe more that just water explosions done with this circuit and your knowledge and experience would be an asset to the development of this.

At everyone:
I am re-posting the video's that I deleted on youtube 5 days ago since many have asked to see them. The interesting thing is you would think that the spark plug would be hot after this test but it is only about body temperature. The light looks very much like the Sun and is full of UV, just look at the flashes on the wood table the spark plug is on.

Video link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPVs_UJ-XRU

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 04, 2008, 06:23:56 PM
Here is the 2nd video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ba_pwxh-czc  Sorry about the quality! I'm working on trying to fix that

To achieve this kind of spark the capacitor is 3.3uf and the voltage to the circuit is about 150 volts. I tried to measure the current but I think none of my meters are giving reliable readings. The meter that worked best was my new analogue - digital and on the 10 amp scale it was showing an average of about 200ma or less.

I used my circuit below and one side of a DPDT relay trigered by a transistor which is switched  by my signal generator.

At everyone, my eyes have somewhat been affected by this but it's not so bad. But please be more cautious than me and get some heavy UV protected Sun glasses if you get to this point.

Added: I'm out for the day to make some money :P so I won't be available till late tonight

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: goldenequity on July 04, 2008, 06:35:14 PM
@ Luc, Ossie and all
In this video presented to the group here,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l54wlbi0Szk

qiman/Aaron is challenging us.
We are continuing to design/modify circuits around a basic premise that we have adopted defacto.

That is, we assume we are piggybacking a HV spark onto a LV spark as a simultaneous event to produce the plasma effect.

He clearly shows the HV spark can be separated (unless I misunderstood) and still produce the plasma effect.

Am I right about this?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 04, 2008, 06:50:32 PM
@ Luc, Ossie and all
In this video presented to the group here,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l54wlbi0Szk

qiman/Aaron is challenging us.
We are continuing to design/modify circuits around a basic premise that we have adopted defacto.

That is, we assume we are piggybacking a HV spark onto a LV spark as a simultaneous event to produce the plasma effect.

He clearly shows the HV spark can be separated and still produce plasma.

This needs to be thought through..... I agree with Ossie.... there remains much thinking and circuit experimentation to be done.
You never know...... until you find out!

Hi goldenequity, thanks for pointing this out. I'm in a hurry to go to work and will take more time to look at this later. I would like everyone's input of this video demonstration.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: LarryC on July 04, 2008, 08:13:02 PM
@ Luc, Ossie and all
In this video presented to the group here,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l54wlbi0Szk

qiman/Aaron is challenging us.
We are continuing to design/modify circuits around a basic premise that we have adopted defacto.

That is, we assume we are piggybacking a HV spark onto a LV spark as a simultaneous event to produce the plasma effect.

He clearly shows the HV spark can be separated (unless I misunderstood) and still produce the plasma effect.

Am I right about this?


His circuit diagram shows that it is using the HV spark from the coil and the capacitors LV at the same time. It does work, did it several times before I finished off my few diodes.

Regards, Larry
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: goldenequity on July 04, 2008, 08:40:00 PM
So.... is that spark on spark?
or spark on field?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: retrod on July 04, 2008, 09:13:15 PM
Hi vlpe,

My tests have shown that you need at least 90-100 volts minimum to cause a plasma discharge across the ignition spark in a spark plug set for a standard gap. An inverter raises 12 volts to 110 or 240 volts for this purpose. Many other methods and DC power supplies can be used for this purpose. But considering the relatively cheap price of inverters these days, it is quite convienient to use one. As long as you know what your doing and don't blow it up...

Regards,

Ossie


@Ossie & all. I'm still waiting for my inverter but decided to experiement with my spare Toro lawnmower today. I used the Ossie circuit with 16 diodes in series. In place of the inverter I used my trusty EICO lab bench hv power supply. My cap was rated at 350 volts so I set the supply to about 275. I found out the hard way that the magneto on the Toro puts out negative pulses, not positive like I expected. This was confusing until I verified it with a Simpson 260 meter. 
 The motor running on gasoline acts a bit different with the plasma turned on. I sprayed water into the intake and clamped the fuel hose, the motor did finally come to a stop. I then noticed the power supply was not keeping up with the discharges (in current limit). I posted this so you are all aware that the pulse polarity from an ignition system is not always positive. When my inverter arrives I will at least be aware of how the connections must be made for the negative magneto.
 If you are having any trouble understanding basic ignition/electrical sytems here is a primer written by Toro that is very good and worth a look. www.age.psu.edu/tae/902/Electrical/Electrical%20Systems%20Toro.pdf

RD
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gettinwet on July 04, 2008, 09:22:39 PM
I figure I have lurked long enough. I can not add much at this point since I know nothing of electronics. But when focus is moved to the engines I will be much more suited to participate in discussions. I have a 1967 Pontiac 400 rebuilt sitting on an engine stand awaiting. 


I just watched capacitor70 video. The funny sound you hear that some of you say is distinct to the water engines like this one and S1r's is due to the muffler being removed. Go take the muffler off yer lawnmower and start it up and you'll see what I mean, it's sort of a popping sound.

He says it will only run with the choke on, my guess is that you gotta remember water is heavier than gasoline so it might have a harder time getting sucked up thru the venturi than gasoline. Also when you choke a carb it sucks more fuel in, maybe water needs a richer mixture than gasoine so you'll have to jet the carb bigger. These are things to play with once I get it installed on a motor.

I remember reading in a PDF that S1r used 2 sizes larger carb jets.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: LarryC on July 04, 2008, 09:38:21 PM
So.... is that spark on spark?
or spark on field?

I don't know what is happing, right now I'm leaning towards the video explanation. I got a big white/blue flash and bang with no water! About the same as I was getting before on the old circuit with water, except it had some orange. Didn't get to try with water before the diodes failed.

Can anyone else try with water?

I was using a 120uf 200V cap.

Regards, Larry
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: qiman on July 04, 2008, 10:26:13 PM
Hi everyone,

Just a comment on my video.

First, look at Luc's diagram. The relay connects the bridge to charge the cap, then it disconnects the relay and connects cap to coil.

In my diagram, I show the cap/bridge constantly connected but only a switch to discharge the cap coil, while it is connected to the bridge (not shown)...just showing a cap, but implied that obviously it is charged from somewhere.

Here is the difference between both our diagrams at least when it comes to WHAT IS HAPPENING? The answer is NOTHING.

Here is why: The HV output leaving the ignition coil is moving towards ground through a lower voltage positive potential. It can be the cap directly, it can be a bridge...doesn't matter. The HV output of the coil moves towards ground and the easiest path is towards that low voltage potential that is connected back to ground.

Have to forget about positive voltage moves to negative. Positive voltage will move to positive voltage if it is less voltage and there is a common ground. A POTENTIAL DIFFERENCE is all that is needed and polarity is irrelevant...again...as long as there is a common ground. Go search Bedini's splitting the positive diagrams.

Anyway, the voltage potential is a GAS...that is NOT an analogy...these circuits are GAS VALVES...the Heaviside flow over the wire IS an "electric" aetheric gas that flows over the wire.

This is what happens, you dump a cap impulse into the coil, windings multiply the voltage obviously but there is also time compression there. The high gas pressure leaving HV output moves to the diode seaking ground through low voltage potential. The diodes block this off and all that gas pressure slams hard against a wall...VERY HARD! You are getting a WATER HAMMER effect literally with the gas...where can that go? Only path to ground then is towards the plug.

Please understand that the gas analogies are really not analogies and are literally what you are doing with the gas pressure.



Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: broli on July 04, 2008, 10:38:46 PM
Can someone make some sort of slideshoweque explanation. Showing the cricuit part by part, each time adding a part and explaining what the purpose of it is and how it affects it (for example choosing a bigger or smaller cap). I have a bit of hard time understanding this since I have basic electricity knowledge. Please explain it as if you're trying to explain it to a 12 year old  :P.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: VenomTT on July 04, 2008, 10:54:32 PM
HI:

I need some advice. I know some of you don't recommend to try it on an engine at first. I know nothing about electronics but I know a little about mechanics. So if You could help me to avoid a blowing inverter. I'll buy a 400Watts inverter tomorrow.

Do you think Gotoluc diagram with some modification like this could work on a one cylinder 4 stroke aluminum head?
If I need to isolate the engine I think I can do it. But, if You Who Do Know about electronics could give me and advice, it would be great.

VenomTT

Regards,
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 04, 2008, 11:21:25 PM
@ Luc, Ossie and all
In this video presented to the group here,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l54wlbi0Szk

qiman/Aaron is challenging us.
We are continuing to design/modify circuits around a basic premise that we have adopted defacto.

That is, we assume we are piggybacking a HV spark onto a LV spark as a simultaneous event to produce the plasma effect.

He clearly shows the HV spark can be separated (unless I misunderstood) and still produce the plasma effect.

Am I right about this?



goldenequity

As I see it  Aaron was not talking about  separating  the  voltages .
He talked about it  creating a radiant  event  .........The  high and low voltages  are accepted as " normal "  electronic  effects  .......... Aaron    is saying that in  addition to this   it creates a radiant  event .     This is NOT  accepted by  " normal " electron theory     ............. Tesla did alot with radiant  energy ....  quite a few others  made some progress too .
NONE of them  have   had  much PUBLIC sucess because    they are outside of   accepted  theory




In the  video  he said  Luc  has made a  mini Grey tube .........not  quite  true ....... he may have made the heart  of the tube .............the hard part ......he didn't  add the collector plates   . 

The  real Grey tube  was  the power source  for a 80 HP  electric  motor .........  judging  from  pictures it was less than a foot long  and  less than 5 in  high .

gary

 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on July 04, 2008, 11:36:01 PM
Useing my setup ..  ;D

Its super bright!!! And shoots out about a little over 1/2"!!!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: qiman on July 05, 2008, 01:14:06 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8OnvanMi-g

Also, I have this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1ADb91lJvI
I'm not showing the electroradiant event in this vid...just high frequency impules.

Point is, I do understand the collector plates as I have actually built it.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: goldenequity on July 05, 2008, 01:21:55 AM
@qiman/Aaron
Quote
qiman quote:"There are some very specific ways to design the circuit so that worrying about the isolation is not even an issue. There are extra benefits to this that I will discuss later."

Just the concept of arcing Hi positive to Lo positive (and not to ground) to achieve plasma should have all circuit designers attention.
Is this why you are saying "isolation" is not even an issue?
Can we chat about the "extra benefits"? It's time..... the world hangs by a thread.... we need to work together.
Thanks ahead for sharing Aaron.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: qiman on July 05, 2008, 01:44:13 AM
Gary,

"In the  video  he said  Luc  has made a  mini Grey tube .........not  quite  true  "

I talked about the electroradiant event that happens in the tube. Please watch your
analysis of what I do and please don't change what I say or take what I say out
of context as you have done. What I have said IS quite true.

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 05, 2008, 01:50:43 AM
@ Luc, Ossie and all
In this video presented to the group here,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l54wlbi0Szk

qiman/Aaron is challenging us.
We are continuing to design/modify circuits around a basic premise that we have adopted defacto.

That is, we assume we are piggybacking a HV spark onto a LV spark as a simultaneous event to produce the plasma effect.

He clearly shows the HV spark can be separated (unless I misunderstood) and still produce the plasma effect.

Am I right about this?


Hi goldenequity,

The circuit presented in the video is simply a basic embodiment of what the strobe only drive circuit does. You can view S1 in the video circuit as the xenon tube. But regardless, the beauty of such a circuit is that it allows the same and single low voltage source to created both the HV pulse as well as the LV current to create the powerfull plasma discharge. Although I think this will have great application for other forms of devices as well as in other areas of research, the reasons I am focussing on a LV current driver circuit is because I feel that this is what will be the best way to be able to adapt existing engines to run on water only as existing engines already have the HV part of the circuit working in their ignition systems.

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 05, 2008, 02:04:17 AM
I don't know what is happing, right now I'm leaning towards the video explanation. I got a big white/blue flash and bang with no water! About the same as I was getting before on the old circuit with water, except it had some orange. Didn't get to try with water before the diodes failed.

Can anyone else try with water?

I was using a 120uf 200V cap.

Regards, Larry

Hi LarryC,

One thing I would like to point out with the discharge and the reaction with water present is that, as Luc has told us of previously, even moisture in the air can increase the explosiveness of the discharge. Spraying water on your spark gap certainly increases the explosiveness a great deal but if you don't, humidity of the air and any natural condensate of moisture on your electrodes or spark plug will increase the power of the discharge. To alter this, simply use a hair dryer or heat gun and completely dry your electrodes and/or spark plug. Then you will find that the exlosiveness of the discharge will be greatly reduced to the point of being non existent and it will appear as a normal high energy spark discharge, relative to the value of your capacitor of course. This is also a good way to look at both extremes of having water present in the discharge and no water, or very little water present and noting the difference in the discharge. I think you will find it quite significant and unexpected.

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: DrStiffler on July 05, 2008, 02:13:20 AM
@Group
Please pardon my intrusion, but I have missed a valuable bit of information and hope someone will point me in the right direction (without sarcasm).

Where is the information on why one needs atm*x versus atm=1 to observe the effect of the plasma on vapor? Has no one tried something as simple as I have?

I may be all wrong, but is the basis of the research on a few people that have stated they have engines running or is it based on the ability of blowing up a simple plastic bottle containing some vapor and a plug?

Please, I do want to explore this, but as so many say about my work, they want supporting information.

Thanks Much....
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 05, 2008, 02:27:48 AM
I put the inverter on a seperate battery and it DIDN'T blow up!!   ;D But now when I arc the plug a few times pretty fast the display on the inverter reads SC for short circuit. Maybe I just need to get a different brand of inverter.

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: greendoor on July 05, 2008, 02:42:48 AM
Bumfuzzled - open up the gap on your plug.  And check that your capactor isn't short circuited.  You are drawing far too much current.  The object of this exercise is to use the minimum voltage to create the spark, and the minimum current to explode the water.  Power = Volts x Amps - and if you are using too much power, you will never achieve overunity. 

Inserting a light bulb, or a high wattage low ohms resistor (around 2 ohms) might also give you some current limiting - but it's also a waste of energy.  See if you can charge your capacitor to 110V without blowing up your inverter.  Then, use the capacitor energy to fire your plug. 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 05, 2008, 02:52:30 AM
Gary,

"In the  video  he said  Luc  has made a  mini Grey tube .........not  quite  true  "

I talked about the electroradiant event that happens in the tube. Please watch your
analysis of what I do and please don't change what I say or take what I say out
of context as you have done. What I have said IS quite true.



I  don't think   I  took  anything out of  context ..........   I  believe that what I said  is true and  accurate .

Perhaps   if you  want to  say someone  made  an  electroradiant  event  you  might  make some attempt  to   explain that to all the people that   have not  spent  half their  lives studying these kinds of things . 

I  do  agree that it is very  likely a radiant  event ........ but it is not   a Gray  tube ........at least not yet .


gary


Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: greendoor on July 05, 2008, 02:56:18 AM
@Group
Please pardon my intrusion, but I have missed a valuable bit of information and hope someone will point me in the right direction (without sarcasm).

Where is the information on why one needs atm*x versus atm=1 to observe the effect of the plasma on vapor? Has no one tried something as simple as I have?

I may be all wrong, but is the basis of the research on a few people that have stated they have engines running or is it based on the ability of blowing up a simple plastic bottle containing some vapor and a plug?

Please, I do want to explore this, but as so many say about my work, they want supporting information.

Thanks Much....

No sarcasm, but ... WTF is "atm*x versus atm=1"?  Atmospheric Pressure? Please don't assume that everyone here has followed all your posts and knows what you are talking about ....

I'm seeking answers too - and my big unanswered questions are:

Why vapour?  If the energy comes from the latent heat of liquid water, then why not use water - and get the spark to turn the water into vapour, liberating the most energy?

Why compression?  That's applying existing ICE ideas to something that may not behave anything like an ICE.  AFAIK, lightening bolts in a storm cloud are in localised low pressure zones ... a depression weather event.

Why air?  Hydrocarbon fuels require oxygen, but water already contains oxygen.  And maybe the effect we want isn't the high temp disassociation of hydrogen & oxygen anyway (that would appear to require too much power input)? 

So is the ideal process Anaerobic?

I'm not wanting to muddy the waters - I really want to clarify the very essence of the overunity principle that is being tested here.  There will be many versions of working designs - but we need to understand the heart of the working principle ... there have been many false leads so far.

For example - can we safely consider that "special inverters" was a mistake/red-herring/mis-direction?

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 05, 2008, 03:04:18 AM
I put the inverter on a seperate battery and it DIDN'T blow up!!   ;D But now when I arc the plug a few times pretty fast the display on the inverter reads SC for short circuit. Maybe I just need to get a different brand of inverter.



Hi bumfuzzled,

As Ben suggested, connect a 110/240V household light globe directly in series with the output of your inverter which is also what appears to be shown in the capacitor70 video. I would use about a 100W light globe which should work as a simple resistive current regulator for your discharge circuit.

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: DrStiffler on July 05, 2008, 03:18:20 AM
No sarcasm, but ... WTF is "atm*x versus atm=1"?  Atmospheric Pressure? Please don't assume that everyone here has followed all your posts and knows what you are talking about ....

I'm seeking answers too - and my big unanswered questions are:

Why vapour?  If the energy comes from the latent heat of liquid water, then why not use water - and get the spark to turn the water into vapour, liberating the most energy?

Why compression?  That's applying existing ICE ideas to something that may not behave anything like an ICE.  AFAIK, lightening bolts in a storm cloud are in localised low pressure zones ... a depression weather event.

Why air?  Hydrocarbon fuels require oxygen, but water already contains oxygen.  And maybe the effect we want isn't the high temp disassociation of hydrogen & oxygen anyway (that would appear to require too much power input)? 

So is the ideal process Anaerobic?

I'm not wanting to muddy the waters - I really want to clarify the very essence of the overunity principle that is being tested here.  There will be many versions of working designs - but we need to understand the heart of the working principle ... there have been many false leads so far.

For example - can we safely consider that "special inverters" was a mistake/red-herring/mis-direction?


Thanks for the succinct response. I am now  assured its all under control and I will be of no help.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 05, 2008, 03:30:48 AM


Why vapour?  If the energy comes from the latent heat of liquid water, then why not use water - and get the spark to turn the water into vapour, liberating the most energy?


Quote

In my opinion   vapor is the easy road .
If a motor  can be shown to run a little by dripping  water into the  intake  .......then    uncontroled  water into the intake  is  the right way to go .      .....................................

Personally  I don't think  there is  much  way to  control  the  process using  mist  .
Unless   control  can be found by manipulaing the  LV  current .
A motor  in a car  needs a high  degree of  control .


I think   that  injecting water  at the plug .........or in the plug    is the way  to  go.............
Making  the  first injector  plugs   will not  be   quick or easy .
I don't have the money to even start  the  process  right now



Quote


Why compression?  That's applying existing ICE ideas to something that may not behave anything like an ICE.  AFAIK, lightening bolts in a storm cloud are in localised low pressure zones ... a depression weather event.


I think that  compression   should work the same   with  a water motor .........   A  spark  in  a vacume  makes no   noise ...and can do no work .    It  only radiates  heat and light .
The  more  pressure   in the  cylinder  the more  work can  be done .


Quote


Why air?  Hydrocarbon fuels require oxygen, but water already contains oxygen.  And maybe the effect we want isn't the high temp disassociation of hydrogen & oxygen anyway (that would appear to require too much power input)? 

So is the ideal process Anaerobic?


I don't think that this process really needs  air ...........but it is kind of hard to get rid of .
and  I don't think it  is  hurting anything .






gary
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: send_to_nice on July 05, 2008, 03:56:08 AM
My turn to ask if I am missing something...

Am I missing something? Does a spark automatically imply that kinetic energy must also be being released in the form of expansion of gases? I know this forum is focussed on working on the spark, but says who that a spark will be of any use? Sure, we can make it bigger, but to me it's still just a spark.

That's why i keep suggesting we expand this to examine more than just the spark. I think we need to figure out if the spark can be used to do useful work for us. I don't know how many read my posts on here though.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 05, 2008, 04:08:33 AM
My turn to ask if I am missing something...

Am I missing something? Does a spark automatically imply that kinetic energy must also be being released in the form of expansion of gases? I know this forum is focussed on working on the spark, but says who that a spark will be of any use? Sure, we can make it bigger, but to me it's still just a spark.

That's why i keep suggesting we expand this to examine more than just the spark. I think we need to figure out if the spark can be used to do useful work for us. I don't know how many read my posts on here though.

Hi send_to_nice,

I have read your posts. But I don't know if you have read all of my posts on here though from the beginning.

Regards,

Ossie
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 05, 2008, 04:20:48 AM
My turn to ask if I am missing something...

Am I missing something? Does a spark automatically imply that kinetic energy must also be being released in the form of expansion of gases? I know this forum is focussed on working on the spark, but says who that a spark will be of any use? Sure, we can make it bigger, but to me it's still just a spark.


Does a spark imply ......... 
Are you  trying to figure  out  what laws of physics  this falls under ?
This  thread is an  offshoot  of  a thread  for  attempting  a replication  the  S1r9  car

We  started  with the information we had .......and have been  trying  to move on from there .

Quote
That's why i keep suggesting we expand this to examine more than just the spark. I think we need to figure out if the spark can be used to do useful work for us. I don't know how many read my posts on here though.

If you  have  some  ideas that may  help with this  project  please  state them .........  If  your ideas end up  evolving into a different  project ...........they  you should probably start a new thread for  your project .

I  am  lookiing for  energy freedom ......  if your  ideas  lead  in the direction  of  practical energy in an ariea  that i can understand ..........then I am with you . 


gary
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 05, 2008, 04:25:15 AM
Hi all,

capacitor70 has an earlier video on youtube of his demonstration of the difference when water is sprayed onto a park plug connected to an approprate LV current discharge circuit. It is very well edited and clear as follows:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjBkqNc0GrQ

I commend him on his efforts. He is the same person with the working motorcylce engine video that appears to to run for short periods on this principle with only water being fed into the carburator. Again, the video is here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnUv6M0N6z4

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: livingwaters08 on July 05, 2008, 07:06:42 AM
Just a quick question,
What happened to all of the posts by capacitor70 and his attempt to get the water delivery to his scooter engine solved??   Deleted??
 ???
HHONOW
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: livingwaters08 on July 05, 2008, 07:22:33 AM
@Group
Please pardon my intrusion, but I have missed a valuable bit of information and hope someone will point me in the right direction (without sarcasm).

Where is the information on why one needs atm*x versus atm=1 to observe the effect of the plasma on vapor? Has no one tried something as simple as I have?

I may be all wrong, but is the basis of the research on a few people that have stated they have engines running or is it based on the ability of blowing up a simple plastic bottle containing some vapor and a plug?

Please, I do want to explore this, but as so many say about my work, they want supporting information.

Thanks Much....

Dr Stiffler,
Perhaps if you could elborate a bit on your equation, maybe a few of us here may be able to help out.....in some small way.
HHONOW ;)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 05, 2008, 07:38:13 AM
Just a quick question,
What happened to all of the posts by capacitor70 and his attempt to get the water delivery to his scooter engine solved??   Deleted??
 ???
HHONOW

Hi livingwaters08, can you tell us which posts by capacitor70 got deleted in this topic ?...If you are talking about another topic then why are you asking about that here?

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nightlife on July 05, 2008, 07:44:41 AM
I just came across this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXYGgMuFZUs&NR=1

 It does not show the coil but it shows a wire attached the spark plug base and one to a ground of the engine.

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: livingwaters08 on July 05, 2008, 08:04:11 AM
Hi livingwaters08, can you tell us which posts by capacitor70 got deleted in this topic ?...If you are talking about another topic then why are you asking about that here?

Luc

Luc, The posts were here this afternoon, on this thread.  Now they are gone.  I was just asking if they have been moved or deleted??
The discussion involved important information regarding fuel delivery to his recent achievement of running a scooter engine on water.
He also posted his circuit diagram, which I know is not the focus here.  I just would like to know where the posts ended up??
Thanks for your reply.


HHONOW
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hartiberlin on July 05, 2008, 12:22:17 PM
Luc, The posts were here this afternoon, on this thread.  Now they are gone.  I was just asking if they have been moved or deleted??
The discussion involved important information regarding fuel delivery to his recent achievement of running a scooter engine on water.
He also posted his circuit diagram, which I know is not the focus here.  I just would like to know where the posts ended up??
Thanks for your reply.


HHONOW

Hi,
I did not delete anything.

Luc did you delete it, as you are the moderator of this thread ?
What was it about ?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: aether22 on July 05, 2008, 01:38:36 PM
My turn to ask if I am missing something...

Am I missing something? Does a spark automatically imply that kinetic energy must also be being released in the form of expansion of gases? I know this forum is focussed on working on the spark, but says who that a spark will be of any use? Sure, we can make it bigger, but to me it's still just a spark.

That's why i keep suggesting we expand this to examine more than just the spark. I think we need to figure out if the spark can be used to do useful work for us. I don't know how many read my posts on here though.
I read and agree.

Without putting this into en engine or possibly some other test (though really only an engine of some description will cause the energy revolution we are seeking) this is all just a waste of time.

How do you know that the best looking or least energy using sparks will be the best for an engine?

The subject of this thread is "URGENT!  WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE"

Not 'Noisey water arcs circuit refinement for experimenters'

It should be about using water as fuel, read Luc's first post if you are at all unclear on this issue.
And as such it must be put to the application of generating power, more than is being put in.

I couldn't help but think the other night how this could be used to create rocket engines that would be easy to make as they would not get hot and only require water.
You could even look at a patent by T.T Brown on how to turns kintetic energy in a gas into electricity, or use it to compress air.
But wait, there is a far far more straightforward way to use this and it is the perfect time since everyone is grumbling about fuel prices, it is to use an ICE as S1r did requiring only relatively minor modification in many cases it seems.

It is clearly the aim of Luc (unless he states otherwise but from his first post I can't believe he would) and this thread (and most people reading) to make ICE's that run on water.
And as such a strong focused effort should be made to do this and document it right.

So for that first we need info to find out what type of engines might be best suited.
And any modification that must be made to get an engine running.

And then once there is at least one (but preferably several simultaneously) fully documented conversions then if WWIII doesn't start or aliens don't invade oil is dead.
It seems we are a heart beat away (providing S1r9a9m9 and Meyer are right) and all that is needed is a focused effort.

So how about it?  Let's organize some conversions.
We need technical skills, engines, money and people to do the work.  Most everyone reading this could help in some way.
So if you want to change the world then please reply with what you are willing to put in either to the list or to me and I will post them all replies on one post.
Can you donate an engine?  Technical skills (especially car related, in person or over the internet)? Money? Can you supply the electronics? (state where you are too, hopefully we can assemble teams)

I figure there are far more people here who can do half the job, and so on or off list it is an issue of recruiting more people.
So far there seems to be only Capacitor70 and I guess Supergod who have got all the parts together to do a motor test, if everyone reading this decided to make a stand and put in what they can we could probably deliver a fatal blow to big oil before the middle of the month, think about that!

Do you know the number one reason Free Energy if not out there yet? It is because it is not supported by a large group working together as one, but by a random collection of lone experimenters who are unlikely to get anywhere without the ability to pull together. (admittedly the enigmatic nature of the aether is also a barrier)

So anyone who can't fund a company size effort will fail, we must become a company, a team, we must use our skill and resources as one.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 05, 2008, 01:55:25 PM
I will be testing on an 11 HP Briggs motor in th next few hours. I've got the carb soaking in cleaner, it was pretty gunked up. Soon as I get it cleaned out I'll run it on gas to make sure the carb is good to go then I'll be switching over to water to see what happens. I'll adjust the timing to see if it makes a difference. I wish I had a jet kit for the carb to see if bigger or smaller jets make a difference.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: aether22 on July 05, 2008, 02:02:12 PM
I will be testing on an 11 HP Briggs motor in th next few hours. I've got the carb soaking in cleaner, it was pretty gunked up. Soon as I get it cleaned out I'll run it on gas to make sure the carb is good to go then I'll be switching over to water to see what happens. I'll adjust the timing to see if it makes a difference. I wish I had a jet kit for the carb to see if bigger or smaller jets make a difference.

You mean you have the effect working after all those dead inverters?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 05, 2008, 02:15:26 PM
You mean you have the effect working after all those dead inverters?

I've only blown up 2 and Kmart is pretty good about exchanging them for another one.  ;D I've had it working for several days now with mains power. I isolated the inverter with it's own battery yesterday and it works fine now. I'll have to put a light bulb in series to keep from short circuiting the inverter.

The only way to keep from blowing up stuff is either to be an electronics expert (which I'm definitely not) or sit on yer hind end and do nothing. And I'll bet these guys on here that know electronics still blow up stuff from time to time.  ;) 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Magnethos on July 05, 2008, 02:15:56 PM
I haven?t seen the entire experiment and I have only a few idea about what are you trying to do. I?m spanish, but I will try to understand all that you say in your video (spoken english is a little difficult to me). But I must to say you that you have tried another method and that is fabulous. I?m very bored seeing every day the same experiments with classical electrolysis systems (using the electrodes). You have tried another method and that is very good. I will see what you are trying to do and I will write my opinion.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: wavez on July 05, 2008, 02:20:55 PM
@ xbox hacker
You say the tests work for you without the body of the plug connected to anything? Will it work if the body is connected to the negative on the bridge rectifier like in the diagrams?

My hope is that the system will work on your ICE if the negative of your bridge is connected to your engine block.


@ everyone
Haven't done any tests yet, but hope to have something to report soon.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: springfield on July 05, 2008, 02:51:36 PM
@anyone
Can someone get me up to speed on the principle at work here? How does the spark extract the energy from the water?

1. When hydrogen combines with oxygen to make water (ie when it burns), energy is released which can be used to power a device, for example some kind of internal combustion engine.
2. To take water and separate its hydrogen from its oxygen, external energy must be supplied, most commonly electrical energy through electrolysis.
3. The amount of energy involved in #1 and #2 above is exactly the same for the same amount of material: in other words there's an exact give-and-take of energy when you go from hydrogen/oxygen to water and back again.

So here's what I don't get: if you start off with water as fuel I don't see how you can extract the energy from it - in fact, you have to put energy IN to separate the hydrogen from the oxygen. So if that's the case, what's the principle at work here that makes this special spark able to get energy from water? Thanks,
-Mike

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: wavez on July 05, 2008, 03:10:40 PM
I have uploaded a diagram to show what I have in mind for my test setup. I know it's not very detailed. Please tell me if this looks like a safe and plausible configuration to start with.
(http://www.hotlinkfiles.com/thumbs/small/1539116_ysw7l/plasma-plug-setup1.jpg) (http://www.hotlinkfiles.com/view/full/1539116_ysw7l)

I would prefer to do my initial testing using house current connected to the switch instead of from an inverter from a battery. I figure, no sense in using a battery when I have an outlet and my device isn't mobile enough to warrant using a battery, and no sense in taking the risk of breaking my inverter.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: wavez on July 05, 2008, 03:21:29 PM
@anyone
Can someone get me up to speed on the principle at work here? How does the spark extract the energy from the water?

1. When hydrogen combines with oxygen to make water (ie when it burns), energy is released which can be used to power a device, for example some kind of internal combustion engine.
2. To take water and separate its hydrogen from its oxygen, external energy must be supplied, most commonly electrical energy through electrolysis.
3. The amount of energy involved in #1 and #2 above is exactly the same for the same amount of material: in other words there's an exact give-and-take of energy when you go from hydrogen/oxygen to water and back again.

So here's what I don't get: if you start off with water as fuel I don't see how you can extract the energy from it - in fact, you have to put energy IN to separate the hydrogen from the oxygen. So if that's the case, what's the principle at work here that makes this special spark able to get energy from water? Thanks,
-Mike

As best as I understand it:

The spark plug is ionizing the space in it's gap which creates an electric connection. It's the same process that spark plugs already use, and is the same process that happens before lightning strikes. Once the connection is made though, we are doing what lighting does, which is allow high current to flow through that connection.

The idea seems to be that we can turn water into plasma with less energy than we get out of igniting it. Plasma being the state where each atom is separate (so water plasma is monatomic H and monatomic O), and so we say that we have a field of charged particles.

[edit]
on this page http://www.geocities.com/waterfuel111/water_explosion_menu.html (http://www.geocities.com/waterfuel111/water_explosion_menu.html), the author states that investigators in the area water arc explosions for rock fragmentation in mining, have noticed the process seems to be 156% efficient.
[/edit]
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 05, 2008, 03:49:50 PM
Luc, The posts were here this afternoon, on this thread.  Now they are gone.  I was just asking if they have been moved or deleted??
The discussion involved important information regarding fuel delivery to his recent achievement of running a scooter engine on water.
He also posted his circuit diagram, which I know is not the focus here.  I just would like to know where the posts ended up??
Thanks for your reply.
HHONOW

Hi livingwaters08, I did not delete any posts by capacitor70 in this topic. If I did I would of mention that in the reply to you. Also please not that if I delete a post I can only delete the content! so the post would still be there just empty. Can you show me an empty post by capacitor70?

Luc

Hi,
I did not delete anything.

Luc did you delete it, as you are the moderator of this thread ?
What was it about ?

No deleting of any posts by capacitor70 have been done by me. I have no idea what it was about since I was out most of yesterday afternoon and evening and did not have access. Maybe capacitor70 removed them himself after posting?

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ramset on July 05, 2008, 04:00:46 PM
LUC somebody is confused chris crossing threads [and its not you]
DR STIFFLER I know LUC would love your input please dont be put off by a few that don't understand Chet PS most of us will be trying to grasp this effect and all its potential for quite some time
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on July 05, 2008, 04:49:45 PM
My set up rev 3.....  ;D

It works as a bench test! draw on inverter is very low!

+ve on the HV fro m the motor is VERY important!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 05, 2008, 05:04:22 PM


So how about it?  Let's organize some conversions.
We need technical skills, engines, money and people to do the work.  Most everyone reading this could help in some way.
So if you want to change the world then please reply with what you are willing to put in either to the list or to me and I will post them all replies on one post.
Can you donate an engine?  Technical skills (especially car related, in person or over the internet)? Money? Can you supply the electronics? (state where you are too, hopefully we can assemble teams)
Quote

I don't have money for  this  kind of stuff  at the moment .......but I  did  do my part for today at least   
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5088.0.html

Quote
So far there seems to be only Capacitor70 and I guess Supergod who have got all the parts together to do a motor test, if everyone reading this decided to make a stand and put in what they can we could probably deliver a fatal blow to big oil before the middle of the month, think about that!


I think   the middle of the  month is   quicker than is practical ............However ........from what I understand    it is  mostly  speculators  driving up fuel  prices at the moment .   
If   we make  alot of progress quickly   and word gets out ......  the  speculation  market  will  dry up in minutes  ......... Then  the  market  will  return to supply and demand 

gary

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hartiberlin on July 05, 2008, 05:12:40 PM
My set up rev 3.....  ;D

It works! draw on inverter is very low!

+ve on the HV fro m the motor is VERY important!

Great to hear this.
Could you please try to show a youtube video of your running motor ?

How fast does it run ?

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hartiberlin on July 05, 2008, 05:18:05 PM
I have uploaded a diagram to show what I have in mind for my test setup. I know it's not very detailed. Please tell me if this looks like a safe and plausible configuration to start with.
(http://www.hotlinkfiles.com/thumbs/small/1539116_ysw7l/plasma-plug-setup1.jpg) (http://www.hotlinkfiles.com/view/full/1539116_ysw7l)

I would prefer to do my initial testing using house current connected to the switch instead of from an inverter from a battery. I figure, no sense in using a battery when I have an outlet and my device isn't mobile enough to warrant using a battery, and no sense in taking the risk of breaking my inverter.

Please put a 40 Watts incandescent bulb before the greatz bridge into the
circuit to reduce the load current, otherwise it could easily
your components.

Be cautious, as when you touch just ONE wire
only, you will get an electric shock, cause you have no isolation-transfomer between your house outlet and
your circuit...!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 05, 2008, 05:23:52 PM
I have uploaded a diagram to show what I have in mind for my test setup. I know it's not very detailed. Please tell me if this looks like a safe and plausible configuration to start with.
(http://www.hotlinkfiles.com/thumbs/small/1539116_ysw7l/plasma-plug-setup1.jpg) (http://www.hotlinkfiles.com/view/full/1539116_ysw7l)

I would prefer to do my initial testing using house current connected to the switch instead of from an inverter from a battery. I figure, no sense in using a battery when I have an outlet and my device isn't mobile enough to warrant using a battery, and no sense in taking the risk of breaking my inverter.

Wavez

I think you  are missing a few things

there is a  diagram  by Luc a  little  ways back

I don't  see  a switch  or anything on your diagram

I also don't  see  any  diodes protecting  your   diode  bridge from the HV

gary
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on July 05, 2008, 05:34:40 PM
Stefan:
I am so sorry, i didnt explain my self better...it works on the bench with a plug in open air, not a running motor...lol

I still have a big problem , when i hook a wire to the body of the plug and the motor, i get NO spark at all!!!!! The only thing that i can think of is that my HV is a negitave ve. And i need positive ve......
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: BEP on July 05, 2008, 06:10:45 PM
@Xbox

Just an FYI:

When hitting a conductive mass with an HV charge consider that mass(the engine) a very large tank circuit. There will be inductive and capacitive reactance to charge. It is very likely the engine is simply absorbing the charge - especially if it is a stream of pulses.
If you get to the point where you are testing with an engine it should probably be a very small one and well insulated from everything including the Earth.

Just a thought. I haven't applied this type of work to and ICE but I do know my sparks  ;)

I find the work here very interesting. If and when I jump in it'll be with a model airplane engine.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: winner on July 05, 2008, 06:19:56 PM
Hi LarryC,

One thing I would like to point out with the discharge and the reaction with water present is that, as Luc has told us of previously, even moisture in the air can increase the explosiveness of the discharge. Spraying water on your spark gap certainly increases the explosiveness a great deal but if you don't, humidity of the air and any natural condensate of moisture on your electrodes or spark plug will increase the power of the discharge. To alter this, simply use a hair dryer or heat gun and completely dry your electrodes and/or spark plug... Regards, Ossie

@ Ossie or anyone:

In an existing ICE, do you see that adding a humidifier and air warmer (for winter operation) to the air intake would be a natural part of a conversion kit for existing engines? I know very little about automobile engines, but it seems to me this is a much simpler way to go than delivering water injection to each spark plug. I remember reading that already a certain amount of water exists in ICE piston chambers; is rust really all that much of a new concern?

Another idea to consider (or throw out if it adds unnecessary complicaton!): If we have another AC signal at the spark plug contacts, of appropriate level and frequency (14-20 kHz?), which is known to contribute toward water dissociation, would this bolster the effect?

I resonate with the various pleas here to focus on Gotoluc's aim of converting existing auto engines to water fuel. Toward this goal, I do also see the need for an organized "divide and conquer" plan where all interested participants can contribute their talents, whatever they may be, toward a universal solution.

Eventually, I see that we will devise something of a conversion kit concept, and then go about constructing specific kits for various cars as necessary.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: allcanadian on July 05, 2008, 06:38:48 PM
@springfield
Quote
@anyone
Can someone get me up to speed on the principle at work here? How does the spark extract the energy from the water?
1. When hydrogen combines with oxygen to make water (ie when it burns), energy is released which can be used to power a device, for example some kind of internal combustion engine.
2. To take water and separate its hydrogen from its oxygen, external energy must be supplied, most commonly electrical energy through electrolysis.
3. The amount of energy involved in #1 and #2 above is exactly the same for the same amount of material: in other words there's an exact give-and-take of energy when you go from hydrogen/oxygen to water and back again.
So here's what I don't get: if you start off with water as fuel I don't see how you can extract the energy from it - in fact, you have to put energy IN to separate the hydrogen from the oxygen. So if that's the case, what's the principle at work here that makes this special spark able to get energy from water? Thanks,
-Mike
Now there is a good question ;)  A very wise person I know once said " you cannot build what you do not understand" and I believe this to be true --- so maybe we should explore the mechanism involved in-depth.
Here is what we know-----
- a high tension arc across a gap has little or no effect on water vapor
- a high current flow cannot jump the gap on it's own
- a high tension arc can act as a "conductor" and conduct large current flows across a spark gap
- an electric current can disassociate water into H2 and O2, if the gasses should recombine the same energy required to seperate them will be released.

Here is what has not been mentioned-----
-Water is a condition applied within the confines of a given space, water vapor is water that has it's surface tension released thus energy has been added to it.
-Water vapor is a condition applied within the confines of a given space, water vapor is not liquid water any more than an apple chopped up into a fine powder could be considered an apple. The qualities and properties change drastically, we enter the realm of nano-technology where many small things seperated act very differently than if they were joined together.
-Matter and space are "conditions" dictated by pressure and potential difference, conditions can be changed.

In this device the conditions have changed  ;) A large current flow is forced to jump into an spark gap and apply it's energy to a water vapor already in a high energy state. What you have not considered is the one thing that makes this process work ----- Duration of the applied energy(Time). Matter will absorb energy until it exceeds its boundaries at which point it must "radiate" the energy to maintain its condition or change its condition. The capacitive discharge in the spark gap because it has a very short duration could amount to thousands of KW but only for a small period of time. As Nicola Tesla once said ---" I can charge a capacitor at 200Hp and discharge it at 10,000Hp or 1,000,000Hp"--- only the duration of energy flow has changed. I do not believe there is any "electrolysis" in the reaction in the spark gap,maybe this is an electrostatic event.
I had decided not to mention this but I think it will help you in more ways than you can imagine ;)
Consider a single rock dropped in a pond of water, the rock entering the water is a singular event yet it produces waves in the water. We could say the properties of the waves are determined by the conditions present, that is the velocity of the rock and the density of the water.The water does not radiate outward from the disturbance, energy radiates outward using the water as the means for propogation. Following this line of though we could also say a singular impulsive discharge could produce waves in the "media" of any wavelength but in this case the duration(rate of change) and magnitude of the energy input can determine the properties of the energy and its effects in matter. Your plasma arc discharge produces UV radiation ie... energy radiating outward from a single point--radiant energy, but this is not the only thing it can do.
Best of luck
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: masta on July 05, 2008, 06:42:57 PM
Heloes everyone,

and thank you all for taking apart of this very important project.
Wanted to say that i do not want to see anyone using word "waste" while contributing or buying stuff to make this thing work, i think some still dont get how big it is, when you all get it going :)

was suprised also that capacitor had removed his posts with success on the scooter engine, here's his video tho, is still up:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnUv6M0N6z4 - capacitor70 scooter engine video

As myself, i think im good enough tinkerer when stuff needs building, but my knowledge in electornics and ICE is far too low to be any big use, still your carborator talk etc reminded me a video i was looking the other day about hydrogen fed ICE, and removed carborator.

Did a search on youtube and found it, stuff i wanted to show starts at about 4:00 into the video:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=RMj14tPiIww - hydrogen fed 5hp motor.

He's using stainless steel tube feeding hydrogen on top of the intake valve, i dont know how carborator works and spreads water, but i was thinking maybe some good "sprinkler" that makes fine mist under some pressure in front of the intake.. also under an angle for excess water to flow away.. hope you get what im thinking.
Anyway, the hydrogen solution uses plain vacuum generated by the piston to suck in enough gas for next ignition, would misty water be gaseous enough and would this provide enough amount for it for next explosion, i dont know, just throwing in an idea for you guys, ignore it if its unusable.

made the "Ossielator" too, as its easy to make :P tho i cant see it react to water, too weak mby, dont know.
(http://img58.imageshack.us/img58/8251/ossielatorwg7.jpg)

good luck guys, moar results less sleeps  ::)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: McGiver30 on July 05, 2008, 07:10:44 PM
XBOX Hacker, I Believe your missing a rectifier right after your inverter in your diagram. can't see how else it would actually be a true dc circuit as you discribe. I am not an expert though.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: broli on July 05, 2008, 07:19:13 PM
Maybe as a suggestion, but could this work inside a chainsaw?. Since they're not that big and easy to fiddle with it might be a good experiment.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 05, 2008, 07:45:18 PM
Hi everyone,

Aaron has started a topic at the Energetic Forum of what we are doing here and he is doing a great job sharing our findings.

Here is the link to the topic: http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/2242-water-sparkplug.html

I encourage this to be shared to as many forums as possible, so if you know of other forums please share it there.

Sharing is the key to change.

I'm off to the garage to start building an engine test setup.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: jibbguy on July 05, 2008, 09:14:57 PM
A very good product for atomizing the water for test purposes would be a healthcare "nebulizer" which is used by people with asthma and COPD (emphysema). They use AC wall power, compress air and run it through flexible tubing to a small container that holds a water or a liquid medicine; atomizing it into a "fog" and shooting it out in a stream (that can go pretty far, maybe 1 meter or a little more, if you don't use the usual breathing mouthpiece that comes with it). It creates a very fine mist. The water in the container will usually last about 7 to 10 minutes between refills.

They start at about $40 and can be gotten from many drug stores /apothecaries or online. The disposable tubing and small container (consumable items) that actually do the atomizing may be all that is really needed; for only about $6.00 US... If you supply the compressed air yourself.

...But don't steal Grandpa's if he needs it, lol ;)
 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Dread on July 05, 2008, 09:22:14 PM
Hi,
I sent an request for this to capacitor 70, but in case I don't get a reply, can anyone confirm the circuit he is using or even better, the schematic?
Re. 2 stroke ICE's (Chainsaws) etc.
Should be OK if you Direct inject above the piston during compression stroke not easy to do. However, I am starting to think that Injection is the way forward for 4 stroke, but I appreciate the usual mechanical complexity of modification.

Here is a theoretical Fuel injection idea to help carb. users meter and vaporize water very easily. Remove the float from the float chamber, replace the cover. Run a pipe from the exhaust to a sealed vessel containing water then another pipe from that vessel to the float chamber's fuel inlet . the exhaust pressure pulse should force the water through the main jet to a vapor, into the venturi.
What is nice about this is. The water pressure increases /decreases relative to the exhaust pressure pulse on demand. a starter motor turning the crank could start the process.

Thanks for listening.

D.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Ricardoch on July 05, 2008, 10:15:43 PM
Hello all!
Really impressed with your ideas and progress, and looking to replicate soon and perform as many test as possible.

In the meanwhile I have just an idea to test as soon as I can build the circuit:
As the HV is used to give the bridge to the low current from the inverter... maybe could it be possible to run it direct from the battery??
If you connect the positive battery through a direct wire to the plug with a strong diode pack to avoid reverse from HV the battery will find the road open as soon as the HV sparks and a 12 volt battery can deliver enough power to melt the plug.

It's just an idea that fly over my neck as I was reading, I'm not an expert, but it could help to avoid buying inverters every now and then...

A last question, I believe to have read somewhere that s1r car need to heat to run smootly, on the other hand I noticed some of you told the spark remained cold over long tests, do you know if engines really warm up to normal gas temp?

Excuse if any unconvenience, as you have already discovered my English is far from being perfect (as everything about me ;))
Ri
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: pilot on July 05, 2008, 10:16:15 PM
First time I have posted here.
I have been following since this thread since it first started on this forum.
I have built a circuit based off of the picture diagram at the beginning. I'm currently not using my 400w Black and Decker inverter because I can't get more than about 2 or 3 sparks and something trips internally and it shuts itself off. This happens with everything from a 1 microfarad to 150 microfarad capacitor. I gave up on the inverter for now and went to something I know is sure to work. I'm using 110v AC from a wall socket going through 4 60w and 2 75w light bulbs in parallel to give me 390w AC. Wish I could attach a picture but my wife has the digital camera right now. I run this into an 8 amp full wave bridge rectifier. The negative from the bridge goes to ground on the MSD coil, spark plug(motor) ground, and one side of a 135 microfarad capacitor. The positive side of the bridge connects to the spark plug via 16 1N5407 diodes. The output of the coil is connected to the spark plug also. It looks very much like the picture diagram at the front of this post except  where the SPDT switch is I have fabricated a set of points that are operated by a cam lobe collar locked down by a set screw on the output shaft of a Briggs & Stratton 5HP Horizontal shaft engine. So far I've tried timing settings from 40 degrees before top dead center to 60 degrees after top dead center. I haven't been able to get it to run with only water. I can tell you this though- there is no way a normal ignition system would take the amount of water I've run through this engine. It seems to want to try to run on water at low rpm with the throttle valve completely closed.

I have run out of time for now and will be gone for 4 days. Will try again when I get back.

I'd like to mention that there is a big difference I think between the picture diagram and the circuit diagram at the beginning of this post from my point of view. The picture diagram is firing a capacitor THROUGH the coil and the circuit diagram is firing a capacitor ON TOP OF a coil discharge. I think this leaves more to be investigated.

I'd also like to mention that while using this setup the spark plug will fire without being grounded to the circuit. The engine is mounted to wood boards for insulation purposes. I accidentally forget to connect the ground from the circuit to the engine block and the plug still fired. As soon as I touched the motor I got shocked and then figured out I forgot the ground wire. Any explanations on this?

If someone is going to try this be very careful. I don't touch the engine while starting or running it. I turn it over with a 1/3 HP electric motor via a drive belt pulley from a water pump off an old chevy. If you take off the recoil starter and remove the ratchet clutch a water pump pulley will bolt right on with a  fine thread nut. Water pump pulleys are about 6" in diameter. I put a 2" pulley on the electric motor. It turns over great! When the engine starts firing, unplug the electric motor or it pulls down the engine. This way I can turn it over while watching the resistor light bulbs and get an indication of when the plug has cleared itself and starts firing again after being drowned out.

I originally tried turning it over with a 3/4" electric drill but for some reason it caused a full draw on the resistor light bulbs. I guess it was searching for a ground through the drill.

Happy testing everyone!!!!!
God loves you
MIke
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: maxvicd on July 05, 2008, 10:57:58 PM
As the HV is used to give the bridge to the low current from the inverter... maybe could it be possible to run it direct from the battery??
If you connect the positive battery through a direct wire to the plug with a strong diode pack to avoid reverse from HV the battery will find the road open as soon as the HV sparks and a 12 volt battery can deliver enough power to melt the plug.

I thought the same thing a time ago and  first limiting current with one 12V lamp or more in parallel for more current, and if it works replace the lamps with a current limiting transistor.

Max ;).
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 06, 2008, 01:19:06 AM
I cannot get it to work on the lawnmower. I have the same problem with the test circuit. If I open the LV circuit anywhere then I can get my HV arc. If I don't open the LV circuit I cannot get a HV spark. With the test circuit I had to reverse polarity on the ignition coil to get this to work. I'm sure that's what my problem is on the lawnmower but there is no way to reverse the polarity with a magneto that I know of.

Another thing Ossie told me to check was the polarity of the coil. I did this test with ONLY the HV circuit hooked up. When the diodes are blocking flow from the coil to ground I get no fire, when they are blocking from ground to the coil I get fire. It is this way with the car coil and the lawnmower. Can somebody explain this to me because I thought electricty always flowed from neg to pos but according to that test it is flowing from the coil to ground which would be backwards.

Only thing I know to do is get a lawnmower with points ignition and bypass the magneto and use the points to trigger my car ignition coil so that way I can reverse the polarity on it so it will work. I've yet to have anybody really explain the flow of this circuit so until I understand it then I'm at the mercy of you people that know electricity.

I've tried the string of diodes in every place in the circuit I can think of backwards and forwards and nothing helps.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 06, 2008, 02:27:07 AM
I cannot get it to work on the lawnmower. I have the same problem with the test circuit. If I open the LV circuit anywhere then I can get my HV arc. If I don't open the LV circuit I cannot get a HV spark. With the test circuit I had to reverse polarity on the ignition coil to get this to work. I'm sure that's what my problem is on the lawnmower but there is no way to reverse the polarity with a magneto that I know of.

Another thing Ossie told me to check was the polarity of the coil. I did this test with ONLY the HV circuit hooked up. When the diodes are blocking flow from the coil to ground I get no fire, when they are blocking from ground to the coil I get fire. It is this way with the car coil and the lawnmower. Can somebody explain this to me because I thought electricty always flowed from neg to pos but according to that test it is flowing from the coil to ground which would be backwards.

Only thing I know to do is get a lawnmower with points ignition and bypass the magneto and use the points to trigger my car ignition coil so that way I can reverse the polarity on it so it will work. I've yet to have anybody really explain the flow of this circuit so until I understand it then I'm at the mercy of you people that know electricity.

I've tried the string of diodes in every place in the circuit I can think of backwards and forwards and nothing helps.

Hi bumfuzzled and all,

I did some bench tests with a new line trimmer motor yesterday using only water. The motor is a two stroke motor and has a fully enclosed electronic magneto coil. I also found that the pulse coming out of the magneto output was negative. So accordingly I connected the positive of my discharge circuit to the ground of the spark plug, but still I could not get the whole circuit to fire in the open as the ignition spark would not work. I found that I had to put a 12kV microwave oven diode in series with the ignition coil/magneto's output such that it was connected to and pointing to the magneto's output lead. This fixed the problem and now the circuit fires just fine in the open.

Because the HV pulse is essentialy the back emf from the ignition coil/magneto, there is a smaller pulse of the opposite polarity just preceding it which is the power pulse the coil needs to have to create a back emf, by not having the 12kV diode, it seems that the discharge circuit shorts out this preceding power pulse and that is why it needs a diode in series with the output of the ignition coil/magneto and still be able to create the required ignition spark.

The first thing I found was that the discharge circuit would not fire inside the cylinder. I could tell this by looking at my ammeter connected to the input of the inverter. capacitor70 used a household light bulb connected in series with the 240V section of his discharge circuit which also provides a very good indication if the discharge is occurring in the cylinder or not as there is no other way to know this, unless the motor runs. After a considerable amount of test and diagnostics, I found that for some reason, perhaps even because of the water vapour, that the ignition spark was too week to occur and allow the discharge circuit to fire inside the cylinder for the spark gap size I was using. Reducing the spark gap did resolve this problem to a point, as I found that it needed to be reduced so much as that now it is prone to getting clogged with water very easily. But also, a reduced gap does not appear to be benificial to the plasma water explosion as indicated by outside tests. Larger spark gaps appear to cause larger explosions.

All up after numerous trials I found that I was only able to get the motor to fire with water only once. By fire I mean one explosion pushing the piston down once in the correct direction and not running. I also found that a number of times I could feel the motor fire as a pressure in the reverse direction on the pull cord. This is indicative that the timing appears to be advanced from TDC so if this is the case, then there is no way for me to adjust the timing on this motor as it has a fixed magneto, without modification to the design and ignition system of the motor. To get the motor to fire just once on this motor it required me to use 310uf of capacitance in the discharge circuit. Firing this amount of charge out in the open with water sprayed on the spark plug sounds like a gunshot, I can tell you!

There is also quite alot of work to be done in regard to the air/waterfuel mixture required. But this can only be explored once the motor can be setup to fire regularly. So from my initial tests, I see more advantages in doing this on a larger 4 stroke motor with a stronger ignition system and variable control of the timing and air/waterfuel mixture.

Please see the following pictures of my setup.

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: k4zep on July 06, 2008, 03:27:54 AM
Hi bumfuzzled and all,

I did some bench tests with a new line trimmer motor yesterday using only water. The motor is a two stroke motor and has a fully enclosed electronic magneto coil. I also found that the pulse coming out of the magneto output was negative. So accordingly I connected the positive of my discharge circuit to the ground of the spark plug, but still I could not get the whole circuit to fire in the open as the ignition spark would not work. I found that I had to put a 12kV microwave oven diode in series with the ignition coil/magneto's output such that it was connected to and pointing to the magneto's output lead. This fixed the problem and now the circuit fires just fine in the open.

Because the HV pulse is essentialy the back emf from the ignition coil/magneto, there is a smaller pulse of the opposite polarity just preceding it which is the power pulse the coil needs to have to create a back emf, by not having the 12kV diode, it seems that the discharge circuit shorts out this preceding power pulse and that is why it needs a diode in series with the output of the ignition coil/magneto and still be able to create the required ignition spark.

The first thing I found was that the discharge circuit would not fire inside the cylinder. I could tell this by looking at my ammeter connected to the input of the inverter. capacitor70 used a household light bulb connected in series with the 240V section of his discharge circuit which also provides a very good indication if the discharge is occurring in the cylinder or not as there is no other way to know this, unless the motor runs. After a considerable amount of test and diagnostics, I found that for some reason, perhaps even because of the water vapour, that the ignition spark was too week to occur and allow the discharge circuit to fire inside the cylinder for the spark gap size I was using. Reducing the spark gap did resolve this problem to a point, as I found that it needed to be reduced so much as that now it is prone to getting clogged with water very easily. But also, a reduced gap does not appear to be benificial to the plasma water explosion as indicated by outside tests. Larger spark gaps appear to cause larger explosions.

All up after numerous trials I found that I was only able to get the motor to fire with water only once. By fire I mean one explosion pushing the piston down once in the correct direction and not running. I also found that a number of times I could feel the motor fire as a pressure in the reverse direction on the pull cord. This is indicative that the timing appears to be advanced from TDC so if this is the case, then there is no way for me to adjust the timing on this motor as it has a fixed magneto, without modification to the design and ignition system of the motor. To get the motor to fire just once on this motor it required me to use 310uf of capacitance in the discharge circuit. Firing this amount of charge out in the open with water sprayed on the spark plug sounds like a gunshot, I can tell you!

There is also quite alot of work to be done in regard to the air/waterfuel mixture required. But this can only be explored once the motor can be setup to fire regularly. So from my initial tests, I see more advantages in doing this on a larger 4 stroke motor with a stronger ignition system and variable control of the timing and air/waterfuel mixture.

Please see the following pictures of my setup.

Regards,

Ossie



That motor setup was NOT a failure, look what you learned!!!!!  Most impressive........I bet your next one WILL work....That 35 degrees AFTER TDC looks more and more like a viable setting.

Ben
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 06, 2008, 04:23:17 AM
That motor setup was NOT a failure, look what you learned!!!!!  Most impressive........I bet your next one WILL work....That 35 degrees AFTER TDC looks more and more like a viable setting.

Ben

Hi Ben,

Thanks. Yes there is much more to learn about applying this process to get a real combustion engine working. One thing I just remembered regarding why the initial normal ignition spark can be dampened to the point of not being able to be strong enough to discharge the capacitors in the discharge circuit. Years ago I did a great deal of high voltage discharge testing in a vacuum chamber. A HV low current spark such as that from an ignition coil is incredibly strong and can travel far greater distances in a vacuum. This is because there is no air and air can be insulative to the high voltage. So from this understanding it does make sense that we have quite the opposite effect going on in the cylinder of a cumbustion engine. It seems the pressure of compressed air will dampen the ignition spark and this can create problems for the discharge circuit being able to discharge. So once again, this analysis does back up the idea that a stronger ignition pulse will be required for this process to work in a combustion engine. This may mean that most people may have difficulties if trying to apply this process to an unmodified magneto type of ignition system.

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: greendoor on July 06, 2008, 04:37:25 AM
Maybe it's best that experimenters get their electric circuit refined to the point where they can blow up plastic bottles first - that would be easier, and more encouraging than trying and failing to get a motor going.  Proof of a powerful expanding pressure would mean that the engine designs are just a design issue. 

Bumfuzzled - your ignorance on things electrical is likely to be a self-fullfilling prophesy.  You can chose to "ignore" the wealth of knowledge all around you, or you can chose to start learning.  At the very bottom if you must - but don't blame your ignorance an anything other than your own choice.

Ignition timing is going to be a big issue for most experimenters.  It might be an idea to forget the conventional ignition circuit and build a new one.  Perhaps an optical sensor that can detect a 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 06, 2008, 04:39:05 AM
Went to my dad's and found a very old Kohler 8 HP lawnmower that is battery ignition with points and a regular canister style coil. So this will be my new test mule if I can get it to run on gasoline first, it's really old. At least I can reverse the polarity on the coil on this one and see what happens.

Ossie, when you say point the diodes toward the magneto does that mean the flow of electricity should go to the magneto or be blocked from going to the magneto?? Seems like I tried that with a string of diodes but I can't remember at the moment.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 06, 2008, 04:52:52 AM


Bumfuzzled - your ignorance on things electrical is likely to be a self-fullfilling prophesy.  You can chose to "ignore" the wealth of knowledge all around you, or you can chose to start learning.  At the very bottom if you must - but don't blame your ignorance an anything other than your own choice.

 

Hey at least I'm out there trying to figure this out instead of sitting behind a keyboard criticizing people who are actually trying to get things going. If you'll read up a couple posts you'll see the man that came up with the circuit that I'm using had trouble getting it to work on an engine too at first. Are you an electronics wizard? If so did you learn it overnight? You know how long I've been learning about electronics? About a week now so unless you have something useful to say to me then please leave me out of yer posts.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: goldenequity on July 06, 2008, 05:08:27 AM
Some thoughts on the 4 stroke single cylinder engine:

The ignition pulse comes from the magneto.
This creates a voltage pulse with EVERY single revolution of the output shaft.
Every 2 strokes of the piston completes 1 revolution of the engine.
There are therefore 2 ignition pulses to every 4 strokes of the engine.
This creates what is called a "waste" spark. This is not a problem for a gasoline powered engine.
That is because of the "burn rate" of gasoline..... which is SLOW compared to hydrogen (10X faster!)

This slow burn rate is the REASON that the spark is set to occur before TDC.
It actually ignites the fuel/air mixture before the top of the compression stroke so it can complete the (slow) burn within the power stroke.
(It is, by the way, why gas engines are so inefficient... the premature combustion pushing against a piston that's trying to come up!)
It does this to create more TIME for the gasoline to completely combust.

Engines with points essentially run off the cam shaft which is turning at HALF the speed of the crank/output shaft.
The points are then set to spark only ONCE for every 2 revolutions of the output shaft (and 4 strokes) of the engine.

I think ultimately, we are going to want to take advantage of the extremely FAST burn rate of the hydrogen/plasma/water explosion.
We are going to want to time the spark to occur PAST TDC to get the most power and efficiency out of the engine...... when the piston is on its way DOWN on the power stroke.

Therefore, if we move our timing past TDC (by adjusting the magneto), we will find ourselves setting a 2nd spark to the INTAKE stroke.... very bad for valves.
The waste spark must be dealt with (imo).
@bumfuzzled
That old Kohler is a real find because of the points ignition setup, I don't believe you will have to deal with the waste spark and you should be able to play with the timing and set it past TDC..... nice score!




Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: whopper1967 on July 06, 2008, 05:08:28 AM
i am pretty much just starting to learn electronics too,but i do have some decent mechanical skills......but anyway,if you havent seen it,this might help......      http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/         .......chapter 12....i need to study it alot more myself....btw congrats on keepin on keepin on...
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: livingwaters08 on July 06, 2008, 05:10:15 AM
Hi livingwaters08, I did not delete any posts by capacitor70 in this topic. If I did I would of mention that in the reply to you. Also please not that if I delete a post I can only delete the content! so the post would still be there just empty. Can you show me an empty post by capacitor70?

Luc

No deleting of any posts by capacitor70 have been done by me. I have no idea what it was about since I was out most of yesterday afternoon and evening and did not have access. Maybe capacitor70 removed them himself after posting?

Luc

Hi Luc,
I want to apologize profusely for my error.  The posts by capacitor70, and his circuit are on the other thread: mys1r9a9m9 replication.

In my quest to gather information I criss crossed threads.  ::)

Again, My Apologies to You, Hartiberlin, and the Group.

Found a 1 cylinder B & S engine to test some circuit layouts on.  I will post pictures and results.  Hopeully Soon.

Livingwaters08
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: TheOne on July 06, 2008, 05:54:43 AM
I am not ready yet for the complete setup but I was playing with different mod on some spark plug.

I removed on one the resistance and just fire up the spark plug (just from a small 12v 7a battery) and was getting very little spark.

I used another plug, I was not able to remove the resistance but with the new configuration I was getting a very good spark!! even with the resistance.
Its easy to try, I removed the neg electrode and put glued a 1/4-20 hex nuts on the top here the picture. I image with the inverter circuit you should get
a very BIG spark, better then a normal plug configuration!

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: springfield on July 06, 2008, 06:34:35 AM
@anyone
Can someone get me up to speed on the principle at work here? How does the spark extract the energy from the water?

1. When hydrogen combines with oxygen to make water (ie when it burns), energy is released which can be used to power a device, for example some kind of internal combustion engine.
2. To take water and separate its hydrogen from its oxygen, external energy must be supplied, most commonly electrical energy through electrolysis.
3. The amount of energy involved in #1 and #2 above is exactly the same for the same amount of material: in other words there's an exact give-and-take of energy when you go from hydrogen/oxygen to water and back again.

So here's what I don't get: if you start off with water as fuel I don't see how you can extract the energy from it - in fact, you have to put energy IN to separate the hydrogen from the oxygen. So if that's the case, what's the principle at work here that makes this special spark able to get energy from water? Thanks,
-Mike

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 06, 2008, 06:48:01 AM
I reversed polarity on the coil on the old kohler motor and put a 100 watt bulb in series with the LV and I now have a working plasma ignition system!! I'm not getting a huge spark but it's decent. Do I need to go with a lower or higher wattage bulb to get more current flow??

As soon as the carb is done soaking I'll clean it up and see if I can't get it to run on gasoline. That will probably be monday, I rest on sunday.  ;D

Ossie, I just realized I don't have enough diodes to put in series between the magneto and plug on the other motor. That's probably why it didn't work for me earlier. I'll get some more diodes and try it on the first motor.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: stanis on July 06, 2008, 06:53:19 AM
Another useful doc

http://www.untoldmysteries.com/extraordinary/HARD-Evidence-CAR-ENGINE-on-Tap-WATER-PlasmaSpark-Hydrogen-Fuel-Free%20Energy-(539Kb)-untoldmysteries-com.pdf
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 06, 2008, 06:54:25 AM
@anyone
Can someone get me up to speed on the principle at work here? How does the spark extract the energy from the water?

1. When hydrogen combines with oxygen to make water (ie when it burns), energy is released which can be used to power a device, for example some kind of internal combustion engine.
2. To take water and separate its hydrogen from its oxygen, external energy must be supplied, most commonly electrical energy through electrolysis.
3. The amount of energy involved in #1 and #2 above is exactly the same for the same amount of material: in other words there's an exact give-and-take of energy when you go from hydrogen/oxygen to water and back again.

So here's what I don't get: if you start off with water as fuel I don't see how you can extract the energy from it - in fact, you have to put energy IN to separate the hydrogen from the oxygen. So if that's the case, what's the principle at work here that makes this special spark able to get energy from water? Thanks,
-Mike

Hi Mike,

Please see this post:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.msg109420.html#msg109420

Regards,

Ossie
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: wavez on July 06, 2008, 07:28:00 AM
[edit] deleted [/edit]
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: kiwijs on July 06, 2008, 07:59:17 AM
Gidday All,

Fantastic stuff happening here, Confads to Luc and Ossie and among others for getting this thing moving.

I have just attached an image of a generic ignition system with a simple mod, please take a look and tell me
is it this simple to feed the LV to the top of the Dizzy with appropriate diodes and diodes on HV from coil.
The rotor is isolated which would cause a first stage spark at rotor and dizzy cap contact hopefully creating
a great spark at the plug.
Am I missing something? Could it be that easy to create plasma spark with standard igniton system?

any feedback is good feedback

Keep up the great work

Regards  Kiwi
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Shiver on July 06, 2008, 08:40:48 AM
Hi All,

First post, but have read the whole thread with interest.  My plan when I get around to building this was not ICE initially, as like previous posters have pointed out, I think it's more important to establish what kind of energy is liberated here, and would like to see an exploding plastic bottle.  I had always thought of vapourised/vaporized water was what I wanted to do, but it's looking more like normal atmosphere and regular water, which makes me wonder has anybody tried cold water or an ice cube?  Would warm air, being more expanded provide less insulation and allow a better spark? Or would that compete with the expansion potential of the water?

Shiver
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: tishatang on July 06, 2008, 08:57:07 AM
@Callanan
I would really like to see you get your two-stroke motor to run.  The fact that you got one pop out of it is very encouraging.  I have three of these laying around my yard.  I have some suggestions.

You can retard the spark, but you will have to pull the flywheel and remove the key in the keyway   This is what locks the timing.  Now you can rotate the flywheel in the direction it wants to run to reduce the spark.  Rotate about 25 to 35 degrees and tighten back down securely.  Once you have found where you want it, maybe it is possible to drill a hole between the flywheel and the crankshaft and drive a pin (nail) in to secure it from slipping?

Don't forget to mix some soluble  oil with the water to oil the bearing and prevent rust.  Use distilled or deionized water to prevent mineral deposits from forming in the carb and crankcase.

It might be an interesting experiment to install an anti-foul spark plug adapter in the engine.  This is a small chamber that screws into the spark plug hole.  The spark plug then screws into it.  In a small engine like this, it will reduce the compression ratio making it easier to fire.  It might also reduce the explosion time between the plug and the top of the piston because the force has to travel further?  This would have the effect of retarding the timing slightly.  There is also the possibility of using this adapter to tap into it and feed the water directly below the plug?  The carb would then only have to supply air and you would not have to worry so much about water in the crankcase.  Just squirt a little regular oil in it occasionly like an airtool.  These adapters have a small orifice to reduce oil getting to the plug.  You will have to enlarge it for our use.  These are available for auto engines, I don't know if they make them for small engines like this?

Hope this helps,  Good luck
Tishatang
Chris




Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: tishatang on July 06, 2008, 09:23:04 AM
@gotoluc

I found this PDF on the other thread.  I was thinking this modified CDI system with multiple firings combined with your HV design may help the odds of us achieving our goad of running on water?

http://www.molla.org/DIY-CDI/SC-DIY-CDI-article-hires.pdf

Tishatang
Chris
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: perma on July 06, 2008, 10:40:20 AM
Has anyone taken a look at these Firestorm plugs to see if they might make sense to use with this application? I noticed that they have no internal resistor, and seem to generate a beefy 'plasma ball' @ 12V DC. I can only imagine what they would do with the inverter in place.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abwXApkLhbc
Title: It isn't back emf
Post by: qiman on July 06, 2008, 11:58:06 AM
Just a small note to see things clearly.

This has nothing to with back emf and this is not what you're using.

BACK EMF is ONLY happening when the loop is closed...Back emf is is Lenz's law...the opposing current to oppose your forward current when charging the coil with 12v or your cap.

AFTER, the input is disconnected, the field collapses and you get that "inductive spike"...that comes AFTER your forward current that has back emf opposing it.

Chronologically in sequence:

1. Charge coil and the forward charge has back emf opposing it...that IS why the forward current applied field charges so slowly.

2. Disconnect and field collapses...why does it collapse fast? There is no back emf to oppose it.

Your HV spike is a time compressed potential...you put in work and you get back potential...potential over time is watts or work and work compressed back into time is high voltage potential.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: k4zep on July 06, 2008, 01:45:13 PM
Hey at least I'm out there trying to figure this out instead of sitting behind a keyboard criticizing people who are actually trying to get things going. If you'll read up a couple posts you'll see the man that came up with the circuit that I'm using had trouble getting it to work on an engine too at first. Are you an electronics wizard? If so did you learn it overnight? You know how long I've been learning about electronics? About a week now so unless you have something useful to say to me then please leave me out of yer posts.

Right on Bumfuzzled,

The post right below your last post is a VERY good one!!!!!  His recognition of the fast burn time of Hydrogen and timing requirements is MOST important!  That engine you have sounds great, if you can reset the points and the magneto coil to match, you should have it made at least from the firing end of it......the water delivery system via "carburetor".....I"m not so sure of as water doesn't vaporize like gasoline!!!!!

If too much, just reset the points to 25-35 degrees AFTER TDC and use an external coil/power supply as others are trying and use the points as a trigger.

Ben
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: k4zep on July 06, 2008, 01:51:01 PM
I am not ready yet for the complete setup but I was playing with different mod on some spark plug.

I removed on one the resistance and just fire up the spark plug (just from a small 12v 7a battery) and was getting very little spark.

I used another plug, I was not able to remove the resistance but with the new configuration I was getting a very good spark!! even with the resistance.
Its easy to try, I removed the neg electrode and put glued a 1/4-20 hex nuts on the top here the picture. I image with the inverter circuit you should get
a very BIG spark, better then a normal plug configuration!



Hi One,

Very good work.  You need to remove the resistor or NOT use a resistor plug so the current from the LV supply can flow quickly in the plasma/spark.  The resistor in plug will limit the current!

Ben
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: k4zep on July 06, 2008, 01:59:38 PM
Has anyone taken a look at these Firestorm plugs to see if they might make sense to use with this application? I noticed that they have no internal resistor, and seem to generate a beefy 'plasma ball' @ 12V DC. I can only imagine what they would do with the inverter in place.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abwXApkLhbc


Where can you buy them????? 

Ben
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: atlantex on July 06, 2008, 02:56:57 PM
nowhere   :-\
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: goldenequity on July 06, 2008, 04:14:40 PM
More thoughts on the "waste spark" as described previously.
If we're going to continue to work on the 4 stroke single cylinder engine, we are going to have to deal with it.

The magneto driven ignition system (as set up for gasoline) creates 2 sparks for every 4 strokes. (see previous post).

Normally, because the timing is set to occur BEFORE TDC,
the waste spark is then "buried" into the exhaust stroke..... and creates NOTHING in the inert gas environment.
and so it creates no problems.

Should we decide to change the timing and move that spark to occur PAST TDC,
we are pushing that 2nd "waste" spark to occur into the INTAKE stroke ( with valve "open" ).
The vapor being introduced into the cylinder at that point would then explode with an open valve..... and that is a problem.

Thinking further about timing normally set to occur BEFORE TDC,
It could very well be, that with hydrogen/plasma/water, and its incredibly FAST burn rate and Explosive Power....
it would be working AGAINST us.
Here's how:
As I said before, the inefficiency of the gas engine is due to exploding the fuel/air during the last part of the compression stroke, i.e BEFORE TDC.
The momentum of the engine overcomes this ill timed event though, and all is well (except for the energy LOST).
But what if the engine is now "fighting" to overcome a much greater force... i.e. a hydrogen/plasma/water explosion during compression?
The answer of course would be to simply move the spark forward into the power stroke and enjoy the fast burn rate and power of our new fuel.
Which brings us back to the "waste spark".
It's gotta go.  :)


The "waste" spark must be eliminated.  Any ideas out there?
Title: Re: It isn't back emf
Post by: poynt99 on July 06, 2008, 04:20:49 PM
Just a small note to see things clearly.

This has nothing to with back emf and this is not what you're using.

BACK EMF is ONLY happening when the loop is closed...Back emf is is Lenz's law...the opposing current to oppose your forward current when charging the coil with 12v or your cap.

AFTER, the input is disconnected, the field collapses and you get that "inductive spike"...that comes AFTER your forward current that has back emf opposing it.

Chronologically in sequence:

1. Charge coil and the forward charge has back emf opposing it...that IS why the forward current applied field charges so slowly.

2. Disconnect and field collapses...why does it collapse fast? There is no back emf to oppose it.

Your HV spike is a time compressed potential...you put in work and you get back potential...potential over time is watts or work and work compressed back into time is high voltage potential.

qiman, of course you are 100% correct. thank you for clearing that up.

we get lazy sometimes and use the wrong terms ;)

also thanks for the simple diagram, i think you have captured the essence of what's really going on here.

have you tried this with a smaller cap yet, say 3u3?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alan on July 06, 2008, 05:05:33 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JkQZIm1wN0

A simple method of 'measuring' explosive energy. Maybe it can be helpful with your experiments.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: whopper1967 on July 06, 2008, 05:22:28 PM
I am not near enough along to try it yet,but I wonder if a much lower compression ratio in the cylinder might not be better for this system?Really all the power would come from the explosion and not the compression ratio wouldnt it?I know that higher compression ratio engines are more efficient and powerful to a certain point with gasoline,up to about 10 to 1 on todays gas.But i think the difference would be compared to trying to kickstart a v8 motor as to the bike motor that cap70 has running.Anybody else?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: goldenequity on July 06, 2008, 06:37:19 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JkQZIm1wN0

A simple method of 'measuring' explosive energy. Maybe it can be helpful with your experiments.

Thanks Alan.  But pure HHO in a vacuum purged container implodes (you can research this out as it has been documented many times)
The fact that he got his device to portray an explosion, means that he had "some" amount of ambient air involved.... including vapor.
He simply measured the explosion of that amount of water.... and since we/he have no idea as to the ratios of air/vapor/HHO..... his
calculations unfortunately mean nothing.  Its cool that he got an explosion though..... but until you can control such variables... calculations like that mean absolutely nothing.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 06, 2008, 06:37:40 PM
I'm not sure the waste spark will be a problem if you retard the timing to ATDC but one sure fire way to tell is if it starts backfiring.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 06, 2008, 06:45:47 PM
First time I have posted here.
I have been following since this thread since it first started on this forum.
I have built a circuit based off of the picture diagram at the beginning. I'm currently not using my 400w Black and Decker inverter because I can't get more than about 2 or 3 sparks and something trips internally and it shuts itself off. This happens with everything from a 1 microfarad to 150 microfarad capacitor. I gave up on the inverter for now and went to something I know is sure to work. I'm using 110v AC from a wall socket going through 4 60w and 2 75w light bulbs in parallel to give me 390w AC. Wish I could attach a picture but my wife has the digital camera right now. I run this into an 8 amp full wave bridge rectifier. The negative from the bridge goes to ground on the MSD coil, spark plug(motor) ground, and one side of a 135 microfarad capacitor. The positive side of the bridge connects to the spark plug via 16 1N5407 diodes. The output of the coil is connected to the spark plug also. It looks very much like the picture diagram at the front of this post except  where the SPDT switch is I have fabricated a set of points that are operated by a cam lobe collar locked down by a set screw on the output shaft of a Briggs & Stratton 5HP Horizontal shaft engine. So far I've tried timing settings from 40 degrees before top dead center to 60 degrees after top dead center. I haven't been able to get it to run with only water. I can tell you this though- there is no way a normal ignition system would take the amount of water I've run through this engine. It seems to want to try to run on water at low rpm with the throttle valve completely closed.

I have run out of time for now and will be gone for 4 days. Will try again when I get back.

I'd like to mention that there is a big difference I think between the picture diagram and the circuit diagram at the beginning of this post from my point of view. The picture diagram is firing a capacitor THROUGH the coil and the circuit diagram is firing a capacitor ON TOP OF a coil discharge. I think this leaves more to be investigated.

I'd also like to mention that while using this setup the spark plug will fire without being grounded to the circuit. The engine is mounted to wood boards for insulation purposes. I accidentally forget to connect the ground from the circuit to the engine block and the plug still fired. As soon as I touched the motor I got shocked and then figured out I forgot the ground wire. Any explanations on this?

If someone is going to try this be very careful. I don't touch the engine while starting or running it. I turn it over with a 1/3 HP electric motor via a drive belt pulley from a water pump off an old chevy. If you take off the recoil starter and remove the ratchet clutch a water pump pulley will bolt right on with a  fine thread nut. Water pump pulleys are about 6" in diameter. I put a 2" pulley on the electric motor. It turns over great! When the engine starts firing, unplug the electric motor or it pulls down the engine. This way I can turn it over while watching the resistor light bulbs and get an indication of when the plug has cleared itself and starts firing again after being drowned out.

I originally tried turning it over with a 3/4" electric drill but for some reason it caused a full draw on the resistor light bulbs. I guess it was searching for a ground through the drill.

Happy testing everyone!!!!!
God loves you
MIke

Wow Mike, you are doing great work. Most impressive ;) ...my hat off to you my friend. All this research, testing and development was done without a single post

This is a great example of real research. Build it and learn, then share to help others.

You need to restrict the air intake when using water as a fuel since the water contains oxygen itself. That is why you notice it works better with the throttle closed.

This weekend I am working on mounting a 3.5 hp lawnmower motor to a washing machine motor frame which I will use the electric motor to keep turning the motor as I do adjustments. See pictures attached

May this be an example to everyone of how much can be accomplished without a single post.

God bless your great work Mike.

Luc

Title: Re: It isn't back emf
Post by: gotoluc on July 06, 2008, 07:34:32 PM
Just a small note to see things clearly.

This has nothing to with back emf and this is not what you're using.

BACK EMF is ONLY happening when the loop is closed...Back emf is is Lenz's law...the opposing current to oppose your forward current when charging the coil with 12v or your cap.

AFTER, the input is disconnected, the field collapses and you get that "inductive spike"...that comes AFTER your forward current that has back emf opposing it.

Chronologically in sequence:

1. Charge coil and the forward charge has back emf opposing it...that IS why the forward current applied field charges so slowly.

2. Disconnect and field collapses...why does it collapse fast? There is no back emf to oppose it.

Your HV spike is a time compressed potential...you put in work and you get back potential...potential over time is watts or work and work compressed back into time is high voltage potential.

Thanks qiman ;)... At everyone it would be wise to listen to user name: qiman here at OU who is user name: Aaron at the Energetic Forum if you wish to understand the effect of this circuit.

I may have been blessed in finding this simple circuit but truly I am an amateur in electronics compare to him and Ossie.

Again, here is a link to Aaron's topic at the Energetic Forum: http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/2242-water-sparkplug.html 
and have a look at all of his posts here at OU: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=profile;u=4674;sa=showPosts

He has made 2 video's explaining this effect.

Link video 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l54wlbi0Szk

Link video 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8OnvanMi-g

Many are not understanding what this circuit is doing. I have said from the beginning! ... this is not a Capacitive Discharge Circuit

Thank you Aaron and Ossie for your hard work and time in helping to explain this circuit. Without your first step in testing such a simple circuit and then sharing your experience I think this topic would not be anywhere close to where it is now.

THIS IS THE POWER OF SHARING THAT MAKES THIS POSSIBLE... IF WE ALL WORK THE SAME WAY WE WILL CHANGE THE WORLD

God bless you both.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: provelless on July 06, 2008, 07:37:30 PM
Luc, have you spun the engine with this setup? The reason I ask is most lawn mower engines have a aluminum flywheel and when you remove the blade you remove the inertia the engine needs to crank over easily. Engines with the blade removed will start but are hard to start and kick back alot. Just a heads up in case this occurs. I'm still waiting on diodes, bought all Radio Shack had and I'm still short a few.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: goldenequity on July 06, 2008, 07:43:28 PM
@ bumfuzzled
Good point......ATDC might be safe for the waste spark... depending on the "length" (duration in time) of the plasma (white) vs.normal (blue) spark.
But you wouldn't get a "back" fire (still burning fuel/air coming out of the tail pipe on the exhaust stroke).....
You'd get a "front" fire coming back up through the carburetor.  Be careful out there, should you start introducing
HHO into the intake (along with water)...... as a waste spark "front" fire will certainly test your spark arrestor / bubbler setup.

@pilot/Mike
I read through your ignition setup on the B&S 5HP and your experimenting with changing the timing before/after TDC.
I assume you are no longer relying on the magneto with your improvised setup.
If you have attached your set of points directly to the OUTPUT SHAFT .... you ALSO are creating a waste spark, i.e. 1 per revolution.
If you can devise a way to run the points off of the CAM shaft, you would then get a single spark for every 4 strokes / 2 revolutions.
Then you would be "free" to place the spark anywhere that runs best! Hats off to you.  ;D
 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 06, 2008, 07:57:08 PM
Luc, have you spun the engine with this setup? The reason I ask is most lawn mower engines have a aluminum flywheel and when you remove the blade you remove the inertia the engine needs to crank over easily. Engines with the blade removed will start but are hard to start and kick back alot. Just a heads up in case this occurs. I'm still waiting on diodes, bought all Radio Shack had and I'm still short a few.

Thanks for your good point but I'm hoping the 10" inch pulley and belt system to the electric starting motor and the electric motor rotor itself will do the job to keep a good balance. I had read somewhere that an induction motor can be used as a generator once it is turned by another source.

I wonder if this would classify for the Overunity prize if it start the motor on water and then use the starter induction motor to outputs power ;D

Please note that that is meant to be a joke.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 06, 2008, 08:50:36 PM
At everyone,

I thank you all for your input and ideas! ... every idea has value and everyone is free to share and use the information as they wish. Please do not be discouraged if I don't reply to your post as I am really wanting to spend most of my time in the testing and development and not too much in the moderator seat. Keep your posts related to this topic and it should all work well.

I need help with 3 tasks.


Task one; can someone do up a list of Frequently Asked Questions? which I will add to the first page of this topic which we will also keep updating as we find new answers.
 
Task two: can someone compile all of user callanan "ossie's" (related to this topic) and do up a summery (using Ossie's words) of all the important observations he has found of this circuit. All his posts are here: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=profile;u=840;sa=showPosts  Please include the video links in the order he is describing the effect. I will post this also at the first page of this topic to help newcomers.

Task three: the same for user: qiman  His post on OU are all here: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=profile;u=4674;sa=showPosts
and his post on Energetic Forum are here: http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/2242-water-sparkplug.html

In order not to duplicate this work! please send me a PM or an email at: gotoluc@yahoo.com and let me know what task you are willing to do.

Your future is based on your participation at this time.


Luc

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 06, 2008, 09:40:42 PM
@ bumfuzzled
Good point......ATDC might be safe for the waste spark... depending on the "length" (duration in time) of the plasma (white) vs.normal (blue) spark.
But you wouldn't get a "back" fire (still burning fuel/air coming out of the tail pipe on the exhaust stroke).....
You'd get a "front" fire coming back up through the carburetor.  Be careful out there, should you start introducing
HHO into the intake (along with water)...... as a waste spark "front" fire will certainly test your spark arrestor / bubbler setup.

That's what we call a backfire because it's firing backwards thru the carb instead of forward thru the exhaust like it would normally do. We're on the same page tho, it's all good.  ;D I decided not to rest today so off I go to see if it'll run!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 06, 2008, 10:09:08 PM
Hi everyone :D

User name: Jetijs of the Energetic forum has a great replication with quite a large spark gap, the largest I've seen so far.

His video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSTu5eiZ98Q

Back to the garage.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 06, 2008, 10:18:48 PM
Thanks for your good point but I'm hoping the 10" inch pulley and belt system to the electric starting motor and the electric motor rotor itself will do the job to keep a good balance. I had read somewhere that an induction motor can be used as a generator once it is turned by another source.

I wonder if this would classify for the Overunity prize if it start the motor on water and then use the starter induction motor to outputs power ;D

Please note that that is meant to be a joke.

Luc

Luc

Yes I have read  that a  standard  induction motor  will work as a generator  It can put out   about as much  power as it  would use  to run it .       
 ........ the   motor  should act  as a  LARGE  flywheel  sense it  also is being powered .  ..........



Assuming  you  get   your motor  to run  .........  your  system is  not  exactly  over unity  because  you  are using  a kind of fuel ......
HOWEVER ......... the exhaust  WILL  condense  into  water .   If  you set up  a  large  enough   cooling  loop ........it should   be able to run closed  loop .......... if you  are recycling  all your fuel  and producing  energy  there is no  question that you  are over unity       Running  closed loop  would also  put an and to any  possible   talk about any kind of pollution  from the  combustion  process


gary
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: pilot on July 07, 2008, 01:13:03 AM
Hi everyone.

 Several pages back in this forum a couple of people mentioned the peculiar thunking noise of the exhaust from s1r9a9m9 (mars 1999) small water engine.
 
 I've heard this exhaust noise before but spent a couple of days thinking about what engines I've heard it from and what they have in common. One engine I can remember that made this noise was an engine off of a Honda 3-wheeler 110cc. I put it on a go-kart several years ago. It was locked up when I got it so I honed the rust out of the cylinder and just put it back together. Low compression but it ran. At a slow idle it made that type of exhaust noise. Old John Deere tractors (Johnnie Poppers) make the same type of exhaust noise at slow idle. They are also fairly low compression. These two engines also have fairly massive flywheels. The piston and rod impart almost all of their energy after combustion to the crankshaft and flywheel before the piston is finished moving down the cylinder sleeve. The piston is pulled down the rest of the way by the flywheel momentum. This creates a vacuum thunking noise when the exhaust valve opens. If this engine truly will run on water alone I'm speculating that the compression (explosion) taking place is very short lived. Since I am on the road and away from my shop, this is what my next plans are if anyone wants to try them.

1. Lower the compression ratio by making a spacer between the head and cylinder block.
2. Remove the carbureuter and intake and block off the intake port with a plate. Tap and drill the plate
    for two metal tube lines with needle valves for each line. Use one for air adjustment and the other to
    suck water from a container.
3. Attach a massive flywheel to the crankshaft.

That's all I can think of for now.
Good luck    God's speed
Mike
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: pilot on July 07, 2008, 01:31:13 AM
@goldenequity

You're absolutely right sir. It does result in two sparks for every one power stroke. Two complete revolutions of the crankshaft equals only one power stroke of the piston. I've thought about what you said and it is possible by changing the timing by up to 60 degrees to get into a condition where it is firing when you don't want it. I guess I have two choices- make a two-to-one geared points distributor or try it as is. I'm not too scared of a popback though because it is water. I've lost my eyelashes and eyebrows several times due to gasoline popbacks. The only thing is I don't know if it could be doing a small unnoticed popback robbing energy from the power stroke.Thanks for your insights.

Mike
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: pilot on July 07, 2008, 01:48:04 AM
Oh yeah forgot one more'

4. A short piston stroke would probably be better.

I think the guy with the model aircraft engine might have a good chance at getting his to run. If he puts a regular size plug in the top of that small combustion chamber with that short of a stroke even a small explosion should make it run.

Mike
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: b0rg13 on July 07, 2008, 01:56:08 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11sY8Sno_y8&feature=related

is this what is being built here?.........improve the spark, then add water?.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 07, 2008, 02:30:02 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11sY8Sno_y8&feature=related

is this what is being built here?.........improve the spark, then add water?.

Borg

This   thread is about  the  a circuit  to  improve  the  spark


The  video  is about  a  guy with a water injector  plug ...... 

My  thread   is  about   building  a water injector  plug  but I am not  trying to replicate the one in the  video

I am  just getting started .....

 http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5088.0.html


gary
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: goldenequity on July 07, 2008, 03:16:29 AM
deleted
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: happyvalley808 on July 07, 2008, 03:21:53 AM
Hello,

Luc Great job!!! Thanks for caring & sharing!!!
Is it ok to use a bridge rectifier rated at 400v , 25amp?
and what relay would work the best.
will this work on a pull start 4 stroke lawn mower?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 07, 2008, 03:40:42 AM
Hi all,

Got these links from the yahoo WaterFuel1978 group. Looking at the date these videos have been added it seems that people have been working on what we are trying to do here, with some success, for quite some time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQF6fvIL3RY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VEVXCXs8dQ

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: geovel56 on July 07, 2008, 04:12:30 AM
Hi Everyone,

I have noticed a few people seem to be waiting quite a while for parts, and are running into some costly expenses for their parts.  I found a great place to buy parts online (checked out many sites) and bought mine from here:       

www.mouser.com


Here is what I paid for my parts:
Quantity     Part                                  Cost
200           1N4007 diodes                    $0.02 each
200           1N5404 diodes                    $0.086 each
  16           1 Ohm 10 Watt Resistor      $0.46 each
  20           10uf 250V Capacitor            $0.17 each

I paid for regular ground shipping (express shipping is more expensive) and got my parts in 3 days delivered to my door.  Total bill was $36.94 including shipping!

Regards,
Geo
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 07, 2008, 04:20:40 AM
Didn't have much success today. I thought I heard it hit a few times but I'm not real sure if it was or if it was just the old motor making noises. I think I need more power in the plasma arc. I added another cap and it seemed to have doubled the arc intensity but still no motor running on water. I'm wondering if this motor not being an overhead valve motor is hindering me? The spark plug is over to the side instead of directly over the piston. I'm just wondering what kind of swirl action of the air/fuel mixture these lil motors get with the combustion chamber made like it is.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: tishatang on July 07, 2008, 04:25:27 AM
@all

In regards to an induction motor as a generator:  As I recall, you have to energize one set of coils with the battery voltage to create a magnetic field for the other set of windings to generate voltage. 

you probably will need to rig a double throw switch?  In one position is start and the other position is DC to the motor from the battery.  Modern alternators need DC from the battery to generate voltage.  If you have a permanent magnet motor be the starter motor, you do not need to anything.  After start, it becomes a generator.

Tishatang
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: TheOne on July 07, 2008, 05:02:03 AM
Someone have tried this plug ? http://www.pulstarplug.com/index.html

They seam to do what firestorm do in term of result but they are using a different way to produce the plasma. I am not sure if its plasma. What I would like to see is the pulstar plug with firestorm, a merge of the 2 technologies will make the strongest plug ever see!!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Shiver on July 07, 2008, 06:04:57 AM
I would imagine that if you just cut off the outer electrode and install a washer in it's place to bring the outside of the plug housing upto the same height as the inner then you would get a decent spark that would arc radially in different directions each fire, and give you much less chance of having water block the path.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Spokane1 on July 07, 2008, 06:29:27 AM
Dear Non-Funded Researchers,

Here is a typical current pulse through a modified spark plug with a .125" Gap using a 5 UF capacitor charged to 325V. The event lasts about 12 uS.In this case a 100 Amp pulse was observed using a Pearson 110 Current Transformer. This pulse was done in a chamber without any water vapor and is intended to be the base line for exploring these water assisted explosions.

I have photos of the set up and detailed write up to go with it but this program bounced it for being to big and then erased all the text that took an hour to compose.

This is an attempt to see if there is any connection between this thread and the work of Marvin Cole (E.V. Gray) and his "Converter Switching Element Tube" (CSET).

Spokane1
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: goldenequity on July 07, 2008, 06:46:44 AM
Thanks for working on a baseline Spokane.... great idea. ;D
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Tinker on July 07, 2008, 06:58:08 AM
Thank you for your efforts and your contribution, but for the less learned of our group could you help us understand what you posted.

Be
Well
Tinker
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 07, 2008, 07:15:50 AM

This is an attempt to see if there is any connection between this thread and the work of Marvin Cole (E.V. Gray) and his "Converter Switching Element Tube" (CSET).

Spokane1

Spokane

There  have been claims  that  this  circuit   creates a radiant event  .  Like  the  grey tube does .

Im my opinion  it is not proven yet .   Although  it does  fit  the description  pretty well .

Personaly I  don't  think I  will ever be convenced  it is  a true radiant event  by a spark .     
If  it is  a radiant event  then  if we can make a string of them we can  put a  collection  grid  around it and  charge a battery or light a bulb or something  .

Scroll  back to reply 561 if you  havn't read that already


gary
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: LarryC on July 07, 2008, 07:25:09 AM
I have noticed a few people seem to be waiting quite a while for parts, and are running into some costly expenses for their parts.  I found a great place to buy parts online (checked out many sites) and bought mine from here:      

www.mouser.com

Here is what I paid for my parts:
Quantity     Part                                  Cost
200           1N4007 diodes                    $0.02 each
200           1N5404 diodes                    $0.086 each
  16           1 Ohm 10 Watt Resistor      $0.46 each
  20           10uf 250V Capacitor            $0.17 each

I paid for regular ground shipping (express shipping is more expensive) and got my parts in 3 days delivered to my door.  Total bill was $36.94 including shipping!


Thanks Geo, you have made a very important post, mouser is much cheaper than Radio Shack and much more variety. My Radio Shack has run out of important parts also, must be the Luc effect.

Regards, Larry
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 07, 2008, 07:27:29 AM
Hi all,

Got these links from the yahoo WaterFuel1978 group. Looking at the date these videos have been added it seems that people have been working on what we are trying to do here, with some success, for quite some time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQF6fvIL3RY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VEVXCXs8dQ

Regards,

Ossie

Hi Ossie, I have been a member at WaterFuel1978 group for 2 or 3 years now. I have seen all the development on those video's you posted which is a capacitive discharge system idea.  If I remember the user name of the one who did this was Tero but none of it worked with water once on the engine. The engine you see running is with fuel and not water. He was just showing his CD ignition system running. He said he could not get it run on water but said it ran realy well with gas :P

As far as I know no one has got it to run like S1R's system.

Keep in mind that when I found this circuit he said it was very much like his but I needed to add coils.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: greendoor on July 07, 2008, 07:32:40 AM
Assuming  you  get   your motor  to run  .........  your  system is  not  exactly  over unity  because  you  are using  a kind of fuel ......HOWEVER ......... the exhaust  WILL  condense  into  water .   If  you set up  a  large  enough   cooling  loop ........it should   be able to run closed  loop .......... if you  are recycling  all your fuel  and producing  energy  there is no  question that you  are over unity       Running  closed loop  would also  put an and to any  possible   talk about any kind of pollution  from the  combustion  process
Very good point.  This is why my idea posted earlier about a water pump system would be much easier to prove real over-unity.  The water system could be totally closed loop.  Imagine a gravity tank - say 10 meters up a hill, with 50mm pipe running up and back.  The pressure vessel with check valves and sparkplug would provide timed surges of water up to the tank.  The water flowing down could drive a waterwheel/turbine generator - and if that could maintain charge for the spark, overunity is achieved.

I admire the enthusiasm of those converting engines.  I just hope that they don't cloud the issue with failures that will draw attention away from the real core energy source here. 

I think there are those struggling with the idea that this is about primarily about producing heat, or disassociating H & O.  I expect there will be an element of this - but if that is the main focus, it will soon be found that there is no overunity.  Very possibly there is some real MIB disinformation clouding this thread already - I have my suspicions about some posts that seem to be guiding the attention off the real issue. 

If we allow ourselves to get misdirected - we will find we are using too much current, and will never achieve overunity.  The circuits to follow are the ones that use the least amount of current - preferably in milliamps.

IMO - this is cold energy.  The Latent Heat of converting liquid water into water vapour.  This is regular physics - nothing metaphysical needs to be invoked.

Sorry if i've offended anyone.  (Bumfuzzled - you better put me on your ignore list, because I say what I think - it's nothing personal).

My 2 cents from somebody just sitting at a keyboard adding nothing to the discussion.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: greendoor on July 07, 2008, 07:40:59 AM
Burn these words into your brain (cut from the Graneau experiment pdf):

Quote
In 1994, we discovered that when
a small quantity of water (usually but not necessarily distilled) is converted to
high-density fog within microseconds, the fog explodes violently. Fog is de?ned
as a multiplicity of tiny water droplets that ?oat in air. The discovery has
been fully described in a book dealing with pre-Maxwellian electrodynamics
(Graneau and Graneau 1996). More recent ?ndings have been discussed in a
previous paper in this journal (Hathaway et al. 1998).
The fog generator is a small water-?lled electric arc cavity to be described
later. In a typical explosion, the cavity receives less than about 50 J of
electrostatic energy from a high-voltage capacitor. Almost all of the input
energy is converted to low-grade heat, raising the water to a few degrees above
ambient temperature. This heat is incapable of raising steam or contributing in
any other way to the explosion. It seems inevitable that the fog is being
produced by electrodynamic forces in the current-carrying arc plasma. Such
forces can furnish the mechanical surface-tension energy required for tearing
bulk water apart into tiny fog droplets.
With 50 J of input energy, the quantity of fog produced is of the order of
0.75 g of water. To dissociate this amount of water into oxygen and hydrogen
would require 10 kJ of energy. Hence the fog explosion is unlikely to be caused
by electrolytic dissociation of water molecules. Without this dissociation, the
most likely source of the explosion energy is that stored by hydrogen bonds
between the water molecules. This bond energy is said to be equal to the latent
heat of evaporation, and therefore could contribute up to 2200 J g−".
Figure 1 depicts the proposed renewable water energy cycle. The fog contains
less H#O?H#O bond energy per gram than a raindrop. In other words, its latent
heat of evaporation is less than that of bulk water. This is known from the fact
that the equilibrium vapour pressure just outside a water droplet increases with
decreasing droplet diameter (Young 1993). The internal-energy difference
between the cold fog expelled from the accelerator must be made up by
atmospheric heat ? that is, essentially by solar energy. No other energy source
appears to be available for replacing the extracted kinetic energy.

Note the big difference between 50 Joules and 10 kilo Joules (10,000 Joules).  Don't miss this point - because that is what the misdirectors want you to lose sight of.  If you are blowing up inverters and using mains AC for brute force - you are mistaken, or are intentionally trying to misdirect research.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ggx9 on July 07, 2008, 07:57:21 AM
To use a motor as a generator, the cheapest and simplest would be the common 110 or 220 volt AC washing machine motor of 1/4 or 1/3 horsepower which typically are rated at 1725 RPM (on 60Hz). This motor wants to run at 1800 RPM, but the load (working at rated horsepower) will slow it a bit to 1725 RPM. If a lawn mower engine is turning the motor at approximately 1875 RPM it will generate approximately the nameplate power (186 watts for a 1/4 HP) motor and send the power to your local electric company. All this time the motor must be connected to the power line, which means it will be turning approx. 1725 RPM while the lawn mower engine is trying to start. This may be a scary or dangerous way to start a lawn mower engine since they are normally turned MUCH slower during normal starting. Of course, some consideration must be made to match the power of the lawn mower engine to the power rating of the electric motor and at the RPM's that they will be operated at. The lawn mower engine will produce much less than its rated power when run at 1875 RPM.

In summary; If the electric motor is made to turn a bit faster than its normal rated speed all the while being connected to the power line, it will act as a generator under these conditions.

I think some sort of arrangement like this (one cylinder 4 stroke engine turning an electric motor as a generator) would be the best testbed to develop the spark circuit.

Richard
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 07, 2008, 07:58:54 AM
Very good point.  This is why my idea posted earlier about a water pump system would be much easier to prove real over-unity.  The water system could be totally closed loop.  Imagine a gravity tank - say 10 meters up a hill, with 50mm pipe running up and back.  The pressure vessel with check valves and sparkplug would provide timed surges of water up to the tank.  The water flowing down could drive a waterwheel/turbine generator - and if that could maintain charge for the spark, overunity is achieved.

I admire the enthusiasm of those converting engines.  I just hope that they don't cloud the issue with failures that will draw attention away from the real core energy source here. 

I think there are those struggling with the idea that this is about primarily about producing heat, or disassociating H & O.  I expect there will be an element of this - but if that is the main focus, it will soon be found that there is no overunity.  Very possibly there is some real MIB disinformation clouding this thread already - I have my suspicions about some posts that seem to be guiding the attention off the real issue. 

If we allow ourselves to get misdirected - we will find we are using too much current, and will never achieve overunity.  The circuits to follow are the ones that use the least amount of current - preferably in milliamps.

IMO - this is cold energy.  The Latent Heat of converting liquid water into water vapour.  This is regular physics - nothing metaphysical needs to be invoked.

Sorry if i've offended anyone.  (Bumfuzzled - you better put me on your ignore list, because I say what I think - it's nothing personal).

My 2 cents from somebody just sitting at a keyboard adding nothing to the discussion.

Hi greendoor, you are right!... lets not all work on the same thing!... like trying to use this circuit to make a engine work on water. Can others please start to do other tests with the circuit. I'm quite sure it's not just for water explosion!...it can do more. Today I saw a post by Aaron at the Energetic forum saying that he was going to move onto Tesla experiment with the circuit. So lets try other experiments with it. If you find something new,  post your findings here with a link to a new topic so we can all support your work.

Thanks for bringing our attention to this greendoor

Where are you allcanadian?.. can you please start a Tesla style topic using this circuit?


Luc
Title: keeping the perspective
Post by: qiman on July 07, 2008, 09:53:15 AM
This concept is too important to have the tower of babel fall on our heads so nobody knows what is going on.

The circuit is not overunity and never will be. You cannot have more than unity or more than everything that you have.

The distinction is this and it is NOT about semantics, it is about seeing very clearly things for what they are and keeping things in perspective.

Efficiency of a circuit is TOTAL INPUT compared to TOTAL OUTPUT. It will ALWAYS be 100% or less. Period!

COP (coefficient of performance) of a circuit or system is YOUR OWN PERSONAL INPUT compared to TOTAL OUTPUT. The total output CAN be more than your own personal input. Where does the extra come from? The environment and can only happen in open circuits or open systems that are explained very well by non-equilibrium open thermodynamics.

If you fly a kite...you spend maybe 10 parts energy to get it in the air...after that, the environmental input (wind) keeps it up...you only have to wiggle your finger supplying almost nothing compared to the wind. If you put in 10 parts or even 20 parts for an entire hour but the wind is supplying 980 parts of input...the TOTAL input is 1000 parts energy...there WILL be losses from gravity and whatever else. If the total work done by the kite in flying is 700 parts and 300 parts in energy losses...that is 1000-300=700 output...so 1000 in and 700 out...that is 70% efficient...TOTAL INPUT COMPARED TO TOTAL OUTPUT.

However....YOUR input is 20 parts for an hour and nature supplied 980 input over the same time. And there is 700 parts in flying work done (after losses)...you put in 20 and you got 700 out of the system. That is a COP of 35 or 3500% gain compared to what YOU put in...but that isn't overunity. That is simply a gain that doesn't violate open system thermodynamics.

Over time, the term overunity, like this website name, has picked up the meaning of more out than in and for a long time, it wasn't known very clearly what the distinctions are. So when someone says overunity, it implies more out than the operator inputs and not the TOTAL input that includes free input from the environment. Even though someone may use the term overunity these days, please keep in mind the distinction. Anyway, it is fairly accepted to use overunity to mean more out than we input, but at least know the real distinctions, please.

There is not over 100% efficiency in these systems but there is the possibility of over 1.0 COP.

1/2CVsquared...how many joules are you expending from the cap once charged and what work is done at the gap with OR without water.
Do that comparison and that will tell you the COP...how do you measure what is at the spark? Be creative and you'll find the ways. But since you spend energy to charge the cap...not over 100% efficient...there is no free energy as you invest some to get a bigger ROI.

Any investment that makes you money is over 1.0 COP....but an open system like an investment doesn't require that it gives you over 1.0 cop...you could lose money but you do have the opportunity to gain. What is the loss on the money system if you put money in an investment that gains? You spent energy to type a letter to your broker, walk to the bank or whatever...same thing.

Anyway, I hope that hones the focus.

The distinction of efficiency vs. COP is as misunderstood as people mistaking Back EMF for the inductive spike.

I agree everyone should work on different parts of this concept...but BE ON THE SAME PAGE AND STANDARDIZE YOUR LANGUAGE. What makes it so convoluted is that science by committee DOES NOT WORK, NEVER HAS WORKED AND NEVER WILL WORK. Do your own experiments and report your results.

Documentation beats Conversation :)....old marketing philosophy.

Please don't take me the wrong way...I am ecstatic about this work and see lots of good things but it can get flushed down the drain just as fast by politics, miscommunication and lack of focus. I honestly hope this helps because one small misunderstanding of what is happening could sets large groups of people down the wrong path...so be on guard and document everything.



Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: send_to_nice on July 07, 2008, 10:41:31 AM
More on this topic over at this thread http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5103.new.html

I agree. Lets not get hung up trying to achieve overunity. Aren't the possibilities of this circuit exciting enough already? I'd love for people to be able to say "it took me 3 years, and I was able to develop a water powered ICE". However, what groundbreaking developments would emerge if someone said "it took me 3 years worth of research, but I was able to prove that overunity is indeed not possible with this circuit".
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alan on July 07, 2008, 12:25:46 PM
Some words again from an armchair engineer :) :
Why not concentrating on finding out how much (explosive) energy a single spark contains or frees?
I posted a video earlier where someone does that with HHO, by testing how much distance a weight is lifted.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: greendoor on July 07, 2008, 12:38:15 PM
For fekksake - this forum is called "overunity".  I agree that the term has no meaning.  It's like "magic" - once we know how the trick is done, it's not magic anymore. 

I prefer the term free-energy - by my simple definition: I don't have to pay for it! 

Once understood - any "overunity" device will be seen as a COP >1 device that transforms an existing energy source, at less than 100% efficiency.  There is no point arguing about that.  Once the working principle is understood - it will be viewed with contempt, just like heatpumps.  Heatpumps are free energy by my definition - and there is absolutely nothing to stop us connecting the output back into the input for self sustaining operation.  The drinking bird, or Minto Wheel, is a self sustaing perpetual motion machine of the 2nd kind - and the over-unity prize should have been given out years ago.

Arguing semantics is useless.  What I do NOT want to see is a dozen failed frustrated attempts at getting an ICE motor to run on water, and this whole thread being declared a nonsense.  There is a principle here that blows my mind, and I want to build the best implementation of that idea.  I just don't believe that taking an existing ICE engine is the best way, but it's a "way" - and good luck to those trying.

Does anyone truely think that the powers that rule this planet will let this thread change the world?  Will we see trucks and trains and boats and planes running on water power alone - leaving a trail of pure energised water behind them in the near future?  I hope so - but I can't see the Bush Oil administration allowing that to happen without war breaking out.  So how do you think they will smear this sort of information?  I have no doubt it's already begun.

The working principle that I see uncovered here is the latent heat in water.  Which comes from ambient heat.  Which comes from solar.  This is a water planet - irradiated with energy from the sun 24/7.  It's all around us - and this is a huge breakthrough revelation for me.  Excuse me for getting excited about it.

So yes: it's not overunity.  The energy is already in the water - sustained by ambiant heat, which is Solar.  In that regard, it's not too different from heat pumps or heat engines. 

The questions is: can we get better than a COP >3?  Otherwise heatpumps are a better way to go.  But I suspect we can get much greater than COP 3.

Graneau have spelled it out for anyone to understand. 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Koen1 on July 07, 2008, 01:17:01 PM
Maybe capacitor70 removed them himself after posting?

As far as I know it is not possible to delete your posts after you have posted them...
It is possible to modify/edit them for a short period after you first posted the message,
but the window for that closes in something like an hour or so, and after that, as
far as I know, the only persons who can modify/edit the posts is the thread or forum moderator.

So if there are no posts by capacitor70 then there never were... or I am very mistaken. ;)
There's lots of YouTube posts by that name though... Is it perhaps someone who posted here
under a different name??

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Koen1 on July 07, 2008, 01:24:37 PM
And what the HECK is going on here guys?!

Will those of you that feel the need to produce tons of text on the subjects of semantics,
the preferred interpretation of the term "over unity", and other bull,
please get their butts out of this thread?!

This thread was doing very nicely with Luc and Ossie and a handfull of others actively
experimenting and posting their findings and setups.
It was clear that a somewhat standardised version of the setup and its test results is what
"we" were working towards,
and after that the next step would be testing implementations of the circuit with actual
engines.

Please do not pollute the thread with arguments over what isand is not OU etc.
There's other threads for that discussion.
Thanks.

 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: k4zep on July 07, 2008, 01:33:53 PM
Burn these words into your brain (cut from the Graneau experiment pdf):

Note the big difference between 50 Joules and 10 kilo Joules (10,000 Joules).  Don't miss this point - because that is what the misdirectors want you to lose sight of.  If you are blowing up inverters and using mains AC for brute force - you are mistaken, or are intentionally trying to misdirect research.


Right on Greendoor,

What everyone is missing is that you have to place water IN the spark, not around it. The more I read and see, indicates that what is going on has very little to do with "burning" the water.  The engines that run via Carb. or direct dribbling of water into the intake are drowning in water, and by chance enough gets around or on the plug to obtain the effect.  I suspect that water around the spark is useless.  What is needed is a totally different spark plug/water holder to cause this type of reaction reliably!  To get a 50 J discharge requires 100VDC @ 10,000 mfd....give or take but that is to big an explosion as I don't think many pistons can hold up to a mechanical equivalent pulse of a 10,000 J pulse.....So a smaller pulse is needed, probably in the 5-10 J area.  So back up gang, put your thinking caps on!  It would appear we are NOT burning water as there is little if no heat, we are exploding water and releasing  energy from within as so ably discussed in several post lately!  This also suggest we don't need compression, just conversion from pressure to motion!!!!  Is all of this discussion what Stanley Meyer discovered?  Are we reinventing the wheel!?

Ben

Ben

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: AhuraMazda on July 07, 2008, 02:03:56 PM
Quite so.
If you think the spark is to start some kind of ignition, you are on the wrong track!.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 07, 2008, 02:16:11 PM
Right on Greendoor,

What everyone is missing is that you have to place water IN the spark, not around it. The more I read and see, indicates that what is going on has very little to do with "burning" the water.  The engines that run via Carb. or direct dribbling of water into the intake are drowning in water, and by chance enough gets around or on the plug to obtain the effect.  I suspect that water around the spark is useless.  What is needed is a totally different spark plug/water holder to cause this type of reaction reliably!  To get a 50 J discharge requires 100VDC @ 10,000 mfd....give or take but that is to big an explosion as I don't think many pistons can hold up to a mechanical equivalent pulse of a 10,000 J pulse.....So a smaller pulse is needed, probably in the 5-10 J area.  So back up gang, put your thinking caps on!  It would appear we are NOT burning water as there is little if no heat, we are exploding water and releasing  energy from within as so ably discussed in several post lately!  This also suggest we don't need compression, just conversion from pressure to motion!!!!  Is all of this discussion what Stanley Meyer discovered?  Are we reinventing the wheel!?

Ben

Ben

Hi Ben and all,

You are 100% correct! I have just spent the last 2 days testing two different engines. A 2 stroke line trimmer engine and a 4 stroke 6.5 HP generator engine. The largest pressure blasts on the piston were observed only when the cylinder gets flooded with water by inserting a tube into the inlet manifold and allowing the water to basically trickle in. Air fuel mixture has very little use so the carbies were useless and required to be removed so I could be sure the liquid water was getting in. At least for the motors I was using. An ultrasonic cool mister was used and pressurised fog into the inlet manifold. This made no diffrence to the pressure power of the spark plug discharges. Only when flooding water was injected into the cylinder and made contact in and around the spark gap did the largest blasts occur. But not large enough to drive the flywheel with any decent power to run. Capacitor discharges of up to 500uf were used.

So much more work to do. Too many variables here, such as how the water may flow in the cylinder and how it winds up making contact with the spark plug. Where the spark plug is located. The orientation of the enigine, cylinder, inlet, outlet, spark plug.....?

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Koen1 on July 07, 2008, 03:07:56 PM
Sorry Ossie and greendoor et al,
I am almost sure I didn't quite get the point there,
so forgive me for posting another dumb question :)

But if it is impossible to ignite the water outside of the plasma discharge zone,
then how come people have managed to produce bursts of flame by just
spraying very fine water mist into the spark? The pics I see don't show
the flame only in the spark gap zone, they show large bursts of flame that seem
to follow the water mist spray...

And if it only works inside the plasma discharge zone, then it shouldn't be
possible to ignite water vapour outside it even if the vapour is contained in
an engine cylinder, so that should never work then...? Is that what you're saying?

I bet that's not exactly what you're saying, as both s1r9a9m9's posts spanning
2 years almost as well as Ossie's latest post here are clearly aimed at using
the setup to ignite a water mist inside a cylinder and thus drive the engines pistons.
So I must have misunderstood again... :(
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Shiver on July 07, 2008, 03:25:59 PM
I think they're saying it must originate within the zone, and from there it can cascade outwards untill all the energy is dissipated.  I think of it like pool or snooker balls.  It's not breaking the balls, but the energy will transfer from balls that fall within the plasma balls to any others in the locality that they hit, and disrupt the weak bond between individual H2O molecules (inter rather than intra).  If there's nothing in the plasma path to start with then there's a mis-cue, or mis-fire.

Shiver

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 07, 2008, 04:01:40 PM
I think they're saying it must originate within the zone, and from there it can cascade outwards untill all the energy is dissipated.  I think of it like pool or snooker balls.  It's not breaking the balls, but the energy will transfer from balls that fall within the plasma balls to any others in the locality that they hit, and disrupt the weak bond between individual H2O molecules (inter rather than intra).  If there's nothing in the plasma path to start with then there's a mis-cue, or mis-fire.

Shiver



Shiver

I agree
In my opinion the  plasma  effect is more than likely OU 

I see  no reason to believe that the  s1r9 engine  burns  the water . 
To me the s1r9 engine  is about  using  an arc  to inject heat into compressed  air
Then   collecting  power  from expansion  . 
The  water just makes the process LOTS more efficient .

gary
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: allcanadian on July 07, 2008, 04:54:46 PM
@Gotoluc
Quote
Where are you allcanadian?.. can you please start a Tesla style topic using this circuit?
LOL, You must have read my mind, I was about to post an easier way to acheive the desired effects----Tesla style. ;D I built your original circuit last night and Qiman's, and it works very well but there are issues. Now consider what is happening in this circuit, an inverter raises a 12v batteries potential to 120v(losses) and is rectified to DC(losses) then charges a capacitor.This capacitor is discharged through the primary of an ignition coil ------ but what happens next? Qiman gave part of the answer ;) The moment the potential from the capacitor reaches the primary of the coil a larger potential is induced in the secondary HV coil. All of you see a spark across the gap but that is only the beginning, Qiman said this is all about "potential" and he is correct. The very moment the HV jumps the arc gap a higher potential appears at both the (-)negative terminal of the primary having an inductance or opposition to current flow and the negative side of the capacitor ;) As such an oscillitory series circuit is formed, the HV appearing behind the capacitor forces another impulse through the capacitor and primary thus the secondary raising potential incrementally. This "appears" to be a single arc across the gap only because the frequency of oscillation is extremely high as such the "qualities" of the arc discharge have changed from what we know. The variables we need be concerned with are potential and frequency of oscillation(wave period)---- this is not "alternating" current it is HV impulsive DC, the flow never reverses but does oscillate within itself, each oscillation raising the potential. You could call it unidirectional RF in which the radiative properties have been expanded. The oscillations produce resonant vibrations within the media and the potential difference tears it apart.
If you want to lose both the inverter and the rectifier to reduce resistance losses you need look no further than Tesla Patent 568177 Ozone generator, an economical and efficient means to charge a capacitor to high potential, the Primary/Secondary is your ignition coil.
Best Regards
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: geovel56 on July 07, 2008, 05:14:59 PM
Hi Everyone,

Can we PLEASE get off of the "water igniting/burning" or "disassociation of water into HHO" or any of that useless banter NOT RELATIVE TO THIS FORUM!  Does it really matter?  The goal here was to develop and improve a circuit to use as little input energy to drive a piston down using WATER instead of FOSSIL FUELS!

I am not an electrical circuit design person by any means and it is not my forte.  I am degreed in Physics and understand what is really happening here, not that it is really important anyway.  That and 50 cents gets you a bad cup of coffee from a vending machine.

If there was a disassociation of water into HHO and burned, then the "system" would be hot, just like burning fossil fuels or burning ANYTHING.  As evidenced by Luc AND Ossie, the spark plug is barely warm.  The reason is because NOTHING is being ignited or burned!

The reaction is just like thunder and lightening.  Ionized water droplets in the atmosphere are then hit by a strong static charge (Lightening).  The air molecules BETWEEN the water droplets are being accelerated at supersonic speeds and bumping into more water droplets, which bumps more air molecules... in a cascading effect.  The thunder we hear and feel is a sonic boom or concussion wave.

This concussion wave can do work by pushing down a piston.  To futher evidence this using Luc and Ossie's experiments, in air alone the plasma arc is notably smaller than when water mist is added.  Luc did get some nice "air only" plasma arcs one day, but then he also said it was raining at the time, which means a lot of humidity or water vapor in the air! 

The HV from the ignition coil instantaneously (or close to it) ionizes the water droplets and when hit with the higher amperage from the rectified AC/inverter part of the circut, is just like Lightening and the air molecules around the water droplet are accelerated at supersonic speeds, hence the loud bang.

Ossie and Luc and anyone else (including me who have done actual experiments) have noticed there are times when the plasma arc action is so great, the reaction quickly "blows out" the plasma "flame" until the next arc.  Again, this is evidence that both the air and water droplets are being pushed rapidly.  AND the spark plug is NOT HOT even after running the tests for 45 minutes or so, as Ossie did.  If you put water on your skin and blow on it, it feels cool because the effect is evaporation!  Are you changing the water into anything other than another form of water?  Are you changing the air you are blowing out?  The obvious answer is NO to both questions!

Bottom line...who cares!  Is this overunity?  No, but again, WHO CARES!  Is the COP > 1 ... WHO CARES!  The idea and FOCUS (let me say this again) FOCUS is to create a circuit that will allow us to REPLACE fossil fuels being burned in any motor/engine with WATER!

Now... can we please get back ON TOPIC, and back to work as a group to accomplish this and stop posting extraneous OFF TOPIC, disruptive and anti-focusing counterproductive points.  There are a million other forums out there to discuss these "other" valuable, but off topic ideas and discussions.

We need to all work together to make this method work in the most energy efficient way to get off of fossil fuels.  The sooner the better, not only for the immediate personal economic reasons for us all, but the far reaching aspects of saving our planet with a ZERO environmental polluting system!  Gasoline by me is at $4.29 per gallon and rising.

Regards,
Geo
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: allcanadian on July 07, 2008, 06:38:39 PM
@geovel56
Quote
The HV from the ignition coil instantaneously (or close to it) ionizes the water droplets and when hit with the higher amperage from the rectified AC/inverter part of the circut, is just like Lightening and the air molecules around the water droplet are accelerated at supersonic speeds, hence the loud bang.
This has been covered, the effect is produced even when the inverter/rectifier is disconnected from the circuit hence there is no "high amperage" required.

Quote
The reaction is just like thunder and lightening.  Ionized water droplets in the atmosphere are then hit by a strong static charge (Lightening).  The air molecules BETWEEN the water droplets are being accelerated at supersonic speeds and bumping into more water droplets, which bumps more air molecules... in a cascading effect.  The thunder we hear and feel is a sonic boom or concussion wave.
There is also an electrostatic standing wave produced preceeding the sonic boom this standing wave extending hundreds of miles past where the thunder could be heard. Which raises the question as to whether the "boom" is produced by electrostatic forces or a pressure wave or both.
We are hear to learn and seek understanding, I think everyones opinion and perspective should be heard, that is a part of the learning process the professionals of science have yet to understand. ;)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: broli on July 07, 2008, 06:53:25 PM
@geovel56:

Aren't you a being a bit arrogant. Your posted sounded more like "you people need to do what I like, so stop talking about things I don't like" Anyone who contributed both on the circuit or engine experiments is as valuable. You need to respect that and not get mad just because you don't like it.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ramset on July 07, 2008, 06:58:41 PM
this thread gets better and better ALL CANADIAN  can you post the more efficient circuit? Chet
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Lakes on July 07, 2008, 07:00:19 PM
I`m just an armchair reader here, it seems to me rather than trying to get this to work with a normal ICE, which can difficult to adjust, some sort of simple piston arrangement, that would be easy to construct out of readily available parts  (maybe made of transparent materials?) would be better, so that the pressure wave could be measured and adjustments made to maximize it.

A flywheel or spring for the return stroke could be added later.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: LarryC on July 07, 2008, 07:09:34 PM
This has been covered, the effect is produced even when the inverter/rectifier is disconnected from the circuit hence there is no "high amperage" required.

In the circuit where the inverter/rectifier is disconnected, the LV from the cap and the HV from the Ignition coil was passed at the same time.

Even with my large cap at 690MFD using 190V, when there is no LV all you get is a thin spark.

With the LV, HV and no water, it gets a half inch white/blue plasma ball.

With the LV, HV and water, it gets a 3/4 inch white/blue/orange plasma ball.

Regards, Larry
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nightlife on July 07, 2008, 07:11:46 PM
 
Quote
We are hear to learn and seek understanding, I think everyones opinion and perspective should be heard, that is a part of the learning process the professionals of science have yet to understand.


 allcanadian, I think a different thread should be used to learn what the professionals of science already know.

 Please let these guys finish what they started this thread for. It was started as a way to simplify a circuit they have been designing to produce the intense spark needed to create the effect that is needed to use water to run fuel based motors on. They have already created the effect with circuits, now let them finish simplifying it.
 
This thread was not set up to find out why or how it creates the effect, it was set up to simplify a circuit they have already created that creates a effect they have already created.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: kenbo0422 on July 07, 2008, 07:25:38 PM
I haven't been on here for over two years.  Glad to see it hasn't gotten stagnant.  Anyway...

I have skimmed the topic and came to the last page to discover what I thought was going on... no ignition.  That's perfectly OK.  It still works.

On another line, has anyone thought of using the Krupa design in the plug part????  It's supposed to spread the plasma much better, which may be all you need to gain the pressure output on the piston to make it move with some authority.

 ???
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hydrocontrol on July 07, 2008, 07:30:05 PM
A simple suggestion for those trying to get a motor to run. What if you remove the spark plug ground tab and just use the piston as the 'ground tab'. I would think that this would create an increasing electric arc size as the piston goes down from TDC and would help the water 'ignite, burn, turn to steam, whatever'  to push the piston down. Why confine the electrical arc to a small predetermined gap. I know when I arc weld I have to get the arc started by being very close to the item to be welded but once I get an arc started I can draw the arc back a fair amount. Seems the same idea would hold for a piston engine electrical arc. If the piston can withstand a gas explosion then a electrical arc should not effect it. Now you may have to use a slightly longer plug just as long as it does not touch the piston top but I think that this may be very effective in always getting a great electrical arc.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Shiver on July 07, 2008, 07:45:05 PM
I have to defer to the guys that understand electronics here, but however I look at it, more important than the circuit is working out what is going on here?  If we put in 100w electrical, do we get out something more than 100w chemical/kinetic/potential?  If not, then what is the purpose of the thread?  Making fireworks which are fun but of no real value?  I admit I'm sitting back waiting for the electronics guys to establish how to isolate the HV/HC circuits in order that I get get on with what I can do which is building something that can use this circuit.  I'm not going to be using any 2 or 4 stroke engines either, it will be a static chamber with a couple of one way valves and the recipient will be a tesla turbine.  Maybe that's no good for running a conventional car, but it will increase understanding substantially.

More important than the circuit is understanding what the process is. From there we can go backwards and design a circuit, and forwards and design a recipient of the energy released.  If that's not clear to one and all then we're in a whirlpool.

Shiver
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 07, 2008, 08:04:25 PM
For those who don't know and those who have forgotten....

S1R made a comment on one of Ossies youtube videos about being close but only being at about 10% power. He said it should be such an arc that it knocks the spark plug off the table. I think we need a huge plasma arc to get this to work in a motor and that means more power. How he's doing it with just a 400 watt inverter I haven't a clue but I think that's the key, a HUGE plasma arc.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: goldenequity on July 07, 2008, 08:39:48 PM
new plug...thanks to gettinwet for this one http://e3sparkplugs.com/diamondfire.htm
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alan on July 07, 2008, 08:59:03 PM
@geovel56
Does it matter if this is overunity or COP>1?
YES, it has to be, if it isn't, then using an electric motor would be better.
If it is, let's say only 40% efficient, you need many batteries for not so many miles.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: springfield on July 07, 2008, 10:28:02 PM

If there was a disassociation of water into HHO and burned, then the \\\"system\\\" would be hot, just like burning fossil fuels or burning ANYTHING.  As evidenced by Luc AND Ossie, the spark plug is barely warm.  The reason is because NOTHING is being ignited or burned!

The reaction is just like thunder and lightening.  Ionized water droplets in the atmosphere are then hit by a strong static charge (Lightening).  The air molecules BETWEEN the water droplets are being accelerated at supersonic speeds and bumping into more water droplets, which bumps more air molecules... in a cascading effect.  The thunder we hear and feel is a sonic boom or concussion wave.

This concussion wave can do work by pushing down a piston...

@geo,

There must be more to it than that. Your saying that the only energy being input is that from the spark. In turn the energy in the spark can only come from one place: the electrical supply (whether battery or mains). If thats your hypothesis, then there are FAR more efficient ways to turn electrical energy into rotational mechanical energy: for example a simple electric motor. So, physics-degreed though you may be, I think your mistaking the principle upon which this machine is operating.

-Mike
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Ricardoch on July 07, 2008, 10:35:05 PM
Hi all!
I realised that most people here clever enough to center on what is going on and pay little attention to armchair semantic expert engineers.
I am also an engineer, after 30 years I forgot almost everything, but what I learned is to see, analise, put my hands on the bench and confirm if it works or not, then you gan give an oppinion on your experience but no much more.

Any expert that says something is impossible is most times wrong, so dont be affected by any kind of expert violent opposition, paper is the best support for everything but the truth, that rely on facts.


Concerning power, I believe most we are giving enough power yet, in fact perhaps a little more than enough.

I got brilliant sparks, more than seen on videos (i hope videos dont do justice) but after some really nice I got power enough to melt the plug, the inverter, the bridge, and the diodes :D.

More fresh parts soon, as well as sunglasses and some bulbs on the circuit.
I realised that inverter is able to deliver enough power to melt the plug and create a metal bridge between electrodes.

Protect the circuit and yourself, there is some energy going around, and excuse if mispelling anything, I can-t see the screen nor the keyboard, (sunglasses next day)  :D.


A question
Wath is the krup plug design mentioned by kenpo???

cheers
Ri

The most difficult to learn is how much we ignore and how little we know.
Sorry for my English.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 07, 2008, 10:51:21 PM
Hi all!
I realised that most people here clever enough to center on what is going on and pay little attention to armchair semantic expert engineers.
I am also an engineer, after 30 years I forgot almost everything, but what I learned is to see, analise, put my hands on the bench and confirm if it works or not, then you gan give an oppinion on your experience but no much more.

Any expert that says something is impossible is most times wrong, so dont be affected by any kind of expert violent opposition, paper is the best support for everything but the truth, that rely on facts.



Welcome to  our little corner of the  forum  Ricardoch

You  got my  respect when you  wrote what is quoted above .

 :) :)



I look forward to  seeing  what   you do when your new parts arrive 


gary

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: IndianaBoys on July 07, 2008, 11:06:23 PM

A question
Wath is the krup plug design mentioned by kenpo???

cheers
Ri


He is referring to the FireStorm Sparkplug:

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Firestorm_spark_plug

Don't bother calling the phone number mentioned in the peswiki article from the link above that is located in the 586 area code as the plugs cannot be found there.  Somebody must have played a trick on this guy as he gets upset and slams the phone down when asking about the plugs. 

"The new "Master Distributor" is Yee Automotive. They are located at: 16541 East Ten Mile Road. Eastpointe, Michigan 48021-1192. Their phone number is (586) xxx-xxxx"  This is not a true statement.

FireStorm's Capabilities First, let's look at what Krupa's FireStorm spark plugs give an internal combustion engine:

More horsepower;
44?50% increase in mpg;
Dramatic decrease in emissions.
Second, let's see what FireStorm plugs eliminate:

Smog pump;
Catalytic converter;
Radio frequency interference (RFI) and the use of resistors in the centre electrode;
Gap growth;
Exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) systems;
Misfire/hesitation/detonation/stutter and stumble.
How, you may ask, is all this achieved? In a word, plasma. The revolutionary design of FireStorm spark plugs creates an electric plasma that fills the entire combustion chamber like a firestorm. It allows you to take an internal combustion engine from the standard 14.7:1 air-to-fuel ratio to an incredibly lean 24:1. At this ratio, all the air/fuel mixture is burned much more efficiently without increasing heat, thus giving an engine more power and fuel economy while creating much less pollution.

IndianaBoys
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: geovel56 on July 08, 2008, 12:16:41 AM
Luc started this thread for the purpose of trying to determine what was in S1R's magic silver can when he posted his video of successfully running an 18 HP Briggs & Straton engine on TAP WATER alone.  Luc also was given Moderator privileges to weed out extraneous posts that were not related to the primary goal of trying to develop a simple circuit to create a plasma arc.

Ossie, Luc, Capacitor70 and others have successfully developed simple circuits.  Now we need to see if any of them work on an engine.  Capacitor70 showed his circuit did work when his motorcycle/scooter kickstarted and ran for a short period of time on water alone.

The theories and opinions on whether this is overunity is NOT the point of this particular thread.  Shiver, Broli and a few others seem intent on giving their opinions about how they think things work which does nothing other than distract the work that is being done by those that were here following LUC's wishes on this thread.

Shiver, Broli, and the other "crapsters" as Dr. S so eloquently and perfectly phrased it... you're entitled to your opinion and like opinions, they are like butts.... everyone has one and they smell bad.  If you have nothing to add to this particular thread in developing and enhancing the circuit necessary to produce the plasma arc, AND help this forum continue to the next step in getting an engine to run on water by this method, kindly read along and feel free to follow this thread, but off topic opinions aren't welcome and only serve to "UNFOCUS" Luc's vision and mission for THIS THREAD.  Stop posting BS not related to what this thread was created for!  We are trying to get a vehicle to run using water INSTEAD of fossil fuels.  Why does this seem to be so hard to comprehend without pointless banter?

Enough already!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: caz on July 08, 2008, 12:29:06 AM
The closest thing to a Firestorm spark plug that I have found on the market is,
http://www.extremespark.com/index.html
I'm waiting on mine to come in so I can test them. Chris
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: allcanadian on July 08, 2008, 01:07:30 AM
@All
I use this simple circuit to charge a 1uF/1200v capacitor to 250v with a single quick press of switch(SW).It doesn't get any cheaper or more simple than that.You can use any diode rated above the voltage you want, the transformer secondaries act as an inductor and I have charged my cap to over 1000v by using a HV microwave transformer as an inductor. Just think 12 volts directly to almost any voltage you desire with a few switch closures and SW can be replaced with a relay, there is no more efficient way to charge a capacitor I know of. What you do with the charged capacitor is up to you. ;)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 08, 2008, 01:23:03 AM
The closest thing to a Firestorm spark plug that I have found on the market is,
http://www.extremespark.com/index.html
I'm waiting on mine to come in so I can test them. Chris

Chris

They   look good .
They  don't  list  their  prices on their website
Do you mind  telling us  how  much they  charged you?

They  don;t say  they have resistors ......but there is  what  they call a pressure seal ......or something like that.
They say it is   made of  carbon and  glass fiber .  .........I wonder  if   they have a non  resistor version . 
 IF  so  it could  be a  big help here.

 .   
gary
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: TheOne on July 08, 2008, 01:35:38 AM
Chris

They   look good .
They  don't  list  their  prices on their website
Do you mind  telling us  how  much they  charged you?

They  don;t say  they have resistors ......but there is  what  they call a pressure seal ......or something like that.
They say it is   made of  carbon and  glass fiber .  .........I wonder  if   they have a non  resistor version . 
 IF  so  it could  be a  big help here.

 .   
gary

They are custom made using other plug, they sell it 20$ each, In my opinion the pulstar plug are yeah better.

I asked to pulstar if they plan to upgadre there plug with firestorm, see the reply

Quote
There is a reason all  current sophisticated engine platforms use a fine wire electrode. This is opposite technology. Large round electrodes increase cycle-to-cycle variability in ionization voltage resulting in inconsistent combustion quality. I do not want to get into a technology issue but will say we have tested all forms of electrodes and gap architecture to discover that delivered electrical power is much more contributory to combustion quality.

Thank you for your time and comments
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 08, 2008, 01:37:09 AM
@All
I use this simple circuit to charge a 1uF/1200v capacitor to 250v with a single quick press of switch(SW).It doesn't get any cheaper or more simple than that.You can use any diode rated above the voltage you want, the transformer secondaries act as an inductor and I have charged my cap to over 1000v by using a HV microwave transformer as an inductor. Just think 12 volts directly to almost any voltage you desire with a few switch closures and SW can be replaced with a relay, there is no more efficient way to charge a capacitor I know of. What you do with the charged capacitor is up to you. ;)

Allcanadian

A  couple of  questions
Does the  secondary somehow control  the  voltage that  it will  charge to ?

Does  the  size  of the  transformer  matter ?

I have a big   transformer  from an old  UPS  just sitting here waiting to be used for something .


gary   

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 08, 2008, 01:59:48 AM
They are custom made using other plug, they sell it 20$ each, In my opinion the pulstar plug are yeah better.

I asked to pulstar if they plan to upgadre there plug with firestorm, see the reply


Thanks  TheOne

2  concerns  I have with the  pulstar 
Will it  handle   the inverter  current?   The  diagram shows the  pulse circuit  in line  with the  center  conductor .

About   the  gap
Their   Fac  sheet  says

Q: What gap setting do I use for Pulstar??

A: If your vehicle manual calls for a gap less than .040" then use the factory recommended settings. Under no circumstances should you set the gap to greater the .040", regardless of the manual setting. Back to top

Could  it  be that to big of a gap  causes  higher  voltage in the plug and could   burn  the pulse circuit out?

I think I  like the Torque Master better
I also think that  the  Torque Master design  might  help    with  oil  fouling like   Capicator   had trouble with

gary
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: kenbo0422 on July 08, 2008, 02:13:45 AM
The Krupa plug is NOT a Firestorm.  The original design was to change the center electrode into a hemisphere and surround it with a crossing arc (two arcs crossed equidistant from the center electrode).  This required a boost in the electrical system as we are describing here.  The result of the design is that the plug produces a large even plasma effect rather than a concentrated arc.  When used with conventional fuel engines, the engine runs cooler, the emissions decrease (better burn) and a significant increase in power (again, better burn from initiation to total consumption).  It didn't catch on in this form because nobody was designing engines with this kind of electrical boost and the manufacturers of plugs weren't going to retool to try it out (even though spark plug manufacturing is yawningly simple -- they were basically lazy and if it didn't turn a buck immediately, to hell with it...).  The Firestorm is a conventional plug design with very little if any of the original Krupa plasma plug design.

Again, has this been tested?  The mods to a plug can be done at home.  I'm not sure of the metal used in the electrodes, but it would be wise to choose the same materials, just in case.  Although, the lesser heat signature seems to point to being able to use more common steels.

I've been busy the last few years.  I learned to work metal in a home hobby shop with a mini lathe and mini mill.  Its my retirement toys.  The mods for this don't even require these kinds of tools.  I'm expecting to see a larger cracking of the water droplet simply because of the expanded plasma.  I must say, that even if it isn't overunity or =1, we have an engine, so to speak, that runs more on water than on fuel.  Imagine this, a gallon of fuel at $15.00 and 10 gals. of water and being able to drive all week.  That is still damned significant.  Consider it a byproduct of your research, throw it out to the masses, and continue research. Don't sit on it because it hasn't come to the final desired outcome.  Patent it if you wish and make the patent public property so the greedy ones don't sit on it.

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: TheOne on July 08, 2008, 02:16:58 AM
Will it  handle   the inverter  current?   The  diagram shows the  pulse circuit  in line  with the  center  conductor .

Good question, its something I think they dont even have an answer. I sent the question I should receive an answer by tomorow :)

The only thing that bother me is 20$ for a plug made from other is kinda a lot, someone will need to try with one plug  (Torque Master) to see if this is a good option.


Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gettinwet on July 08, 2008, 02:19:00 AM
new plug...thanks to gettinwet for this one http://e3sparkplugs.com/diamondfire.htm

I forgot my questions in the other thread were pertinate here as well so I'll ask. Has anyone tried aircraft style spark plugs? They do not have the standard "L" shaped electrode as most automotive plugs. Also, Mercury Marine uses a similar design plug in their old thunderbolt ignition engines. I will get the AC part number tomorrow when I get to the shop. Short of combing back thru the whole thread, has anyone mentioned the HV output voltages of the ignition coils being used? Since I do not totally understand all of the electrical happenings with the circuit you guys are using I must ask, What would happen to the spark intensity if a higher voltage ignition coil were used? Pardon my questions but I know engines not electronics.

Thanks,
Wet
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: TheOne on July 08, 2008, 02:35:13 AM
I forgot my questions in the other thread were pertinate here as well so I'll ask. Has anyone tried aircraft style spark plugs? They do not have the standard "L" shaped electrode as most automotive plugs. Also, Mercury Marine uses a similar design plug in their old thunderbolt ignition engines. I will get the AC part number tomorrow when I get to the shop. Short of combing back thru the whole thread, has anyone mentioned the HV output voltages of the ignition coils being used? Since I do not totally understand all of the electrical happenings with the circuit you guys are using I must ask, What would happen to the spark intensity if a higher voltage ignition coil were used? Pardon my questions but I know engines not electronics.

Thanks,
Wet

This plug looks like the haloplug http://www.haloplug.com/
I used this plug on my last vehicle (jeep) and I see the big difference in the engine.

But I still think pulstar are making a better spark
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hartiberlin on July 08, 2008, 02:48:11 AM
@geo,

There must be more to it than that. Your saying that the only energy being input is that from the spark. In turn the energy in the spark can only come from one place: the electrical supply (whether battery or mains). If thats your hypothesis, then there are FAR more efficient ways to turn electrical energy into rotational mechanical energy: for example a simple electric motor. So, physics-degreed though you may be, I think your mistaking the principle upon which this machine is operating.

-Mike
.

That is right.
 We must test, how big the overunity factor is, otherwise if the process is not overunity
it makes more sense to use an electric motor to drive a car.

One easy thing to measure it would be in some kind of electrial plasma canon.

Just put the sparkplug into a iron tube and take a 1 Kg iron weight for example,that
fits well sliding into the tube.

Then use water with the sparkplug and a defined charged capacitor voltage
to fire the High Voltage and discharge the lower voltage cap.
Then you can see how high the 1 Kg weight will be shot out into the air.
Measure this height difference and measure the voltage difference on the
cap and you can calculate the energies used and got out.
So potential height energy is:
Epot= m x g x h
Epot= potential height energy
m= mass
g= 9.81 earth acceleration
h= height difference

Electrical input energy can be measured at the cap:

Ecap= 0.5 x C x V^2

Ecap= stored electrical energy
C= capacitance in Farad
V= Voltage at the cap.

So for an example:

If you charge up a 100 uF cap to 400 Volts, you have
Ecap= 0.5 x 0.0001 F x (400 Volts)^2=
8 Joules ( Wattsseconds) of energy stored inside the cap.

Now calculate the height you must shoot the 1 Kg weight up to be
at least unity COP=1.

Ecap=Epot=8 Joules= 1 Kg x 9.81 x height.
So height = 8 Joules / 9.81= 81.5 cm

So you have to shoot up the 1 Kg weight more than  81.5 cm to be OverUnity !

I hope somebody can show this.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: caz on July 08, 2008, 02:53:01 AM
Gary, I bought a set for my 91' Honda Civic Hatchback 1.5L, $11.00 each $7.00 shipping. Had them quote a set for my 88' ford 5.0L V8 F150 $7.00 each. I don't know at this point if they are resistor plugs or not, but I think that they are a small enough company to build what ever we need. I will let you know for sure when I receive them. As an Automotive Machinist with 40 plus years of learning, 2 stroke weedeaters/ chainsaws, 4 stroke singles to V12's, 3208 CAT diesel's I'm excited to test these with this new circut. Out of respect for Luc, Ossie, Xbox and anyone else that has actually done testing and attempeted to apply this concepet to an ICE I have been limiting my comments to this thread in order to not muck it up. I must however interject a comment on the issue of timing. With HHO you must retard the timing to only 8-10 degrees ATDC because of the rapid combustion of the mixture in the combustion chamber. Water by itself won't produce a faster flame front than HHO so I suggest keeping your timing closer to the 8-10 degree so as not to waste critical degrees on the power stroke.
Chris
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: lasher23 on July 08, 2008, 03:06:38 AM
Hello all,

I've been following this discussion since the beginning. I'm not an electronics expert, but I replicated the circuit and had my spark-plug delivering a nice fat arc. Anyway, I was wondering if this setup could be run from anything other than an inverter. I borrowed the inverter I was using and it's gone now. I cannot afford one and I'd rather not give up. Could I feed 120 from the wall socket straight into my rectifier for testing purposes? I hate the thought of giving up now and could use some advice.

Thanks all and keep up the research, someone will crack this yet.

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: allcanadian on July 08, 2008, 03:29:08 AM
@ resonanceman
Quote
A  couple of  questions
Does the  secondary somehow control  the  voltage that  it will  charge to ?
Does  the  size  of the  transformer  matter ?
I have a big   transformer  from an old  UPS  just sitting here waiting to be used for something .
gary   


-- I am using the transformer secondary only, wire wrapped around an iron core is called an inductor because it has the property of self-inductance. The more windings the greater the self-inductance and proportionately a greater induced voltage, a 120v winding will consistently generate three times its rated voltage when the magnetic field collapses, that is around 360v maximum.
-- No,  the only requirement is the rated amperage and voltage.

The whole point in posting this circuit is that quite frankly the inverters everyone is using are fragile and not very efficient, the circuit I posted will take more abuse than most of you can dish out if built with high rated but relatively cheap components. I built my circuit for under $10 and it can generate over 1000v pulses to charge a capacitor however for most puposes I use the 120v inductor for around 300v--- the rating for most of my larger capacitors.
This circuit is the topic in a thread called "the Tesla project" under Tesla technologies on this site.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 08, 2008, 03:43:55 AM
.

That is right.
 We must test, how big the overunity factor is, otherwise if the process is not overunity
it makes more sense to use an electric motor to drive a car.



Stefan

I don't  agree

The  question is not if it is over unity ..........the question is if we can get it  to work .

I  think it  has  been  shown that  an engine  can  will kick  over   running  on only water 
There is  little  evidence so far that   the  engine can be  controled  like  a convention ICE

As I see it  worst case ....... we   develop  a system to run an engine  steady state  ....
With this  we could   drive a generator   for power in  our homes  or   possibly  use it  in a hybrid car . 

It doesn't  matter how much water it takes to run .
It  doesn't  really matter  how efficient  it is .   .........if it runs it is a GIANT  step in the right  direction .
Efficiency  will  come in time .

gary

Edit

I can see that some will  say that   the  efficiency  of the basic process is  what is important  and   needs to be measured .
If we measure it now we only learn  how efficient it is at our CURRENT level of understanding  . 
A change  in  voltage,   current,  frequency .........maybe even  geometry  can all affect  the  overall  efficiency 



gary
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: qiman on July 08, 2008, 03:52:29 AM
I am not an electrical circuit design person by any means and it is not my forte.  I am degreed in Physics and understand what is really happening here, not that it is really important anyway.  That and 50 cents gets you a bad cup of coffee from a vending machine.

If there was a disassociation of water into HHO and burned, then the "system" would be hot, just like burning fossil fuels or burning ANYTHING.  As evidenced by Luc AND Ossie, the spark plug is barely warm.  The reason is because NOTHING is being ignited or burned!

The reaction is just like thunder and lightening.  Ionized water droplets in the atmosphere are then hit by a strong static charge (Lightening).  The air molecules BETWEEN the water droplets are being accelerated at supersonic speeds and bumping into more water droplets, which bumps more air molecules... in a cascading effect.  The thunder we hear and feel is a sonic boom or concussion wave.

This concussion wave can do work by pushing down a piston.  To futher evidence this using Luc and Ossie's experiments, in air alone the plasma arc is notably smaller than when water mist is added.  Luc did get some nice "air only" plasma arcs one day, but then he also said it was raining at the time, which means a lot of humidity or water vapor in the air! 

The HV from the ignition coil instantaneously (or close to it) ionizes the water droplets and when hit with the higher amperage from the rectified AC/inverter part of the circut, is just like Lightening and the air molecules around the water droplet are accelerated at supersonic speeds, hence the loud bang.

I don't understand why this MISINFORMATION about current following up the HV jump keeps popping up! lol I explained ACCURATELY what is happening here and nobody has it right.
Watch tihs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l54wlbi0Szk
Watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8OnvanMi-g

The 2nd vid is an ISOLATED capacitor to PROVE there is NO current from an inverter than can possibly jump a gap when it is ISOLATED FROM THE CIRCUIT. These ideas I see are throwing people down the wrong track of what is happening and unless people are using the correct model, it will negatively influence how you approach your enhancements to what you are doing to make it better.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 08, 2008, 03:52:39 AM
@GotolucLOL, You must have read my mind, I was about to post an easier way to acheive the desired effects----Tesla style. ;D I built your original circuit last night and Qiman's, and it works very well but there are issues. Now consider what is happening in this circuit, an inverter raises a 12v batteries potential to 120v(losses) and is rectified to DC(losses) then charges a capacitor.This capacitor is discharged through the primary of an ignition coil ------ but what happens next? Qiman gave part of the answer ;) The moment the potential from the capacitor reaches the primary of the coil a larger potential is induced in the secondary HV coil. All of you see a spark across the gap but that is only the beginning, Qiman said this is all about "potential" and he is correct. The very moment the HV jumps the arc gap a higher potential appears at both the (-)negative terminal of the primary having an inductance or opposition to current flow and the negative side of the capacitor ;) As such an oscillitory series circuit is formed, the HV appearing behind the capacitor forces another impulse through the capacitor and primary thus the secondary raising potential incrementally. This "appears" to be a single arc across the gap only because the frequency of oscillation is extremely high as such the "qualities" of the arc discharge have changed from what we know. The variables we need be concerned with are potential and frequency of oscillation(wave period)---- this is not "alternating" current it is HV impulsive DC, the flow never reverses but does oscillate within itself, each oscillation raising the potential. You could call it unidirectional RF in which the radiative properties have been expanded. The oscillations produce resonant vibrations within the media and the potential difference tears it apart.
If you want to lose both the inverter and the rectifier to reduce resistance losses you need look no further than Tesla Patent 568177 Ozone generator, an economical and efficient means to charge a capacitor to high potential, the Primary/Secondary is your ignition coil.
Best Regards

Hi allcanadian, thank you for answering my call ;)

AT EVERYONE In case some of you do not know user allcanadian... he is very very knowledgeable of Tesla's circuits and is a great asset for us to have here with us. I ask you all to be respectful towards his advice and to do the tests that he will recommend since they will help us all to understand what this circuit does. You cannot get these teachings even in the best of Universities, so pay attention and do the tests before you ask or comment anything.

@allcanadian, the floor is yours. ...Let me know if there is anything I can do that could help you with the moderator privileges I have since I don't know much about what I can all do with it

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 08, 2008, 03:55:31 AM
Hello all,

I've been following this discussion since the beginning. I'm not an electronics expert, but I replicated the circuit and had my spark-plug delivering a nice fat arc. Anyway, I was wondering if this setup could be run from anything other than an inverter. I borrowed the inverter I was using and it's gone now. I cannot afford one and I'd rather not give up. Could I feed 120 from the wall socket straight into my rectifier for testing purposes? I hate the thought of giving up now and could use some advice.

Thanks all and keep up the research, someone will crack this yet.



I was feeding from a wall socket but unless you've got some big diodes they will blow after a few arcs. I used an old heating element I had laying around as a resistor to limit the current. You could put a light bulb in series to do the same. Be careful, that outlet can put out alot more punch than the inverter. Be sure you have everything insulated good if yer using a metal table, I found out the hard way about that. I had one component laying on the bare metal table and I think it fed back thru a small drill press sitting on the table, not good.

I've got 10 big diodes that my dad took out of some welders, They are rated at around 100-125 amps I believe. Not sure on the voltage but the ten I have aren't rated for enough voltage to allow the circuit to work or I'd use them with the wall outlet or the biggest inverter I could find just to see how big of an arc I could get.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 08, 2008, 03:56:36 AM
I`m just an armchair reader here, it seems to me rather than trying to get this to work with a normal ICE, which can difficult to adjust, some sort of simple piston arrangement, that would be easy to construct out of readily available parts  (maybe made of transparent materials?) would be better, so that the pressure wave could be measured and adjustments made to maximize it.

A flywheel or spring for the return stroke could be added later.

Hi Lakes, thanks for the excellent suggestion.

I know I can get Lexan in a tube and I think also in rod. We can turn a few groves in the rod and use rubber O rings and a little oil and we have a clear Lexan combustion chamber. We can have it vertical with the spark plug at bottom and add metal weights on top of the rod or a spring so it can compress and see what is going on under pressure. I would also like to test it under vacuum.

What do you all think of this idea? please input if you have a better setup idea or anything that would be useful to know.

Thanks again Lakes.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: NerzhDishual on July 08, 2008, 03:57:16 AM


Hi witty guys,

Have you noticed that Nikola Tesla did not use HV diodes?
Why? Perhaps because such devices were not available.  ;D
He used huge impedance coils.
These coils were used in different ways:

The first way was to use a coil as an 'energy storing device'.
For example: US609250. Electrical Igniter For Gaz Engines

(http://freenrg.info/Patents/Tesla/Tesla_609250_Explan.jpg)

From:
http://freenrg.info/Patents/Tesla/TESLA_US00609250.pdf (http://freenrg.info/Patents/Tesla/TESLA_US00609250.pdf)

The second way was to use the impedance of this coil as a diode =
an high self induction device.
For example: US568177. Apparatus for producing Ozone

(http://freenrg.info/Patents/Tesla/Tesla_568177_Explan.jpg)

From:
http://freenrg.info/Patents/Tesla/TESLA_US00568177.pdf (http://freenrg.info/Patents/Tesla/TESLA_US00568177.pdf)

This Uranian Genius (beware: Astrology!  :P) had the capacity of over simplifying
things. He used, for example, an electric motor as a mechanical switch and also as
a coil. US568177

Have you also ever try to 'redraw' some of his patent figures in a
more convenient/logical/QiMan way?

Off Topic: frankly, I have a very simple mind. I used to be a computer programmer.
IMHO, computer programming is, generally, a linear way of thinking.
So, I do not undersand how some of you could really figure out how some
circuits could be working with such exotic way of drawings...

In topic: I have all the stuff to reproduce the GotoLuc experiments.
So , please, count me in.

Best
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 08, 2008, 04:21:49 AM
I don't understand why this MISINFORMATION about current following up the HV jump keeps popping up! lol I explained ACCURATELY what is happening here and nobody has it right.
Watch tihs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l54wlbi0Szk
Watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8OnvanMi-g

The 2nd vid is an ISOLATED capacitor to PROVE there is NO current from an inverter than can possibly jump a gap when it is ISOLATED FROM THE CIRCUIT. These ideas I see are throwing people down the wrong track of what is happening and unless people are using the correct model, it will negatively influence how you approach your enhancements to what you are doing to make it better.

Hi quiman,

Please see my previous posts as follows:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.msg108614.html#msg108614
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.msg108838.html#msg108838
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.msg109072.html#msg109072

These circuits simply allow the low voltage high current from the charged capacitor to discharge through the ionised air that the HV spark creates. The LV cannot ionised the air because the voltage is too low. When air is ionised, it's resistance is lowered dramatically allowing the LV and current from the capacitor to discharge through it.

This is completely analogous to what occurs in a xenon flash tube. The 300 or so volts sitting across the xenon tube is not enough to ionise the xenon gas and discharge the capacitor current via the tube. But when a HV trigger pulse is generated from a trigger transformer and directed to the gas in the tube, the xenon gas ionises and as such it's resistance drops allowing the 300V capacitor energy to flow through it which results in a bright flash from the tube. This is exactly what we are doing here with these circuits  but instead, the air is our xenon gas and an ignition coil is our trigger transformer.

As far as the water explosions are concerned, what is new here is how such a simple, and now, well understood circuit can create such a plasma discharge in air so easily that it causes liquid water to explode when it comes into contact with the plasma discharge.

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Shiver on July 08, 2008, 04:34:33 AM
Shiver, Broli, and the other "crapsters" as Dr. S so eloquently and perfectly phrased it... <snip>...If you have nothing to add to this particular thread in developing and enhancing the circuit necessary to produce the plasma arc,... <snip>...but off topic opinions aren't welcome and only serve to "UNFOCUS" Luc's vision and mission for THIS THREAD.  Stop posting BS not related to what this thread was created for!  <snip...

If it's about building the circuit then why the talk of engines?

Okay I'll sit out, but I think you're missing out on a valuable resource.  I'm just saying that as an R&D exercise it's all over the place, and everything needs addressing and quantifying, but there's an optimal order to that.  Foundations first.

Shiver
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: geovel56 on July 08, 2008, 04:56:07 AM
@geovel56
Does it matter if this is overunity or COP>1?
YES, it has to be, if it isn't, then using an electric motor would be better.
If it is, let's say only 40% efficient, you need many batteries for not so many miles.

Alan,
OK, then take your motor out of your car and put an electric motor in, or continue with this shortsided banter and keep paying $4.35 per gallon (and on the rise) for gasoline.

@geo,

There must be more to it than that. Your saying that the only energy being input is that from the spark. In turn the energy in the spark can only come from one place: the electrical supply (whether battery or mains). If thats your hypothesis, then there are FAR more efficient ways to turn electrical energy into rotational mechanical energy: for example a simple electric motor. So, physics-degreed though you may be, I think your mistaking the principle upon which this machine is operating.

-Mike

Mike,
Yes there is much more to it than that.  I was just trying to keep it in a simple conceptual form as to what happens in the Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) running on water with a plasma arc as opposed to gasoline with an ordinary ignition coil spark, but again... It Doesn't Matter. 

I certainly am NOT mistaken about how an ICE uses gasoline or diesel to make it run.  This thread was created by Luc to get us all to work together to come up with a low energy input circuit to yield a strong plasma arc.  From there,  we can use water instead of gasoline or diesel. 

So far, once the strong plasma arc has been applied inside an engine, others that have already been successful have noted the timing had to be retarded by as much as 35 degrees, the air/fuel mixture had to be richer (more water) than with gasoline, the carb jets have to be bigger than they are when running on gasoline (to allow more water in), and the overall power from the car is reduced slightly. 

Personally, I don't care if my top speed on a gasoline run engine was 125 mph, and with water is reduced to only 90 mph.  There isn't anywhere I can drive in the USA that fast anyway without breaking the speed limit laws!  I certainly would much rather fill up my tank using a garden hose than at a gas station, especially at $4.35 per gallon (today's price near me)!

Supposedly, S1R has done this with his '78 El Camino.  He went 2 jet sizes bigger than the standard jets in a stock carb on his 350 Chevy El Camino engine.  He retarded the timing 35 degrees so it fired after top dead center, and supposedly has driven this car for 3 years now and over 30,000 miles.

He did produce a YouTube video recently, where he was running a Briggs and Straton 18 HP engine on only tap water.  Capacitor70 has successfully started (and ran for a short period of time) his motorcycle/scooter engine (kickstart) and produced a video on YouTube.  JCBX from Denmark has successfully started and ran his Volvo on tap water and produced a YouTube video, and I saw one yesterday, also from the group I belong to on Yahoo, I believe his name is Dreamyears or something like that.

The bottom line is Luc, also part of the same Yahoo group I belong to, decided after S1R posted his success on the Briggs and YouTube video, but wouldn't list his parts nor divulge his circuit, Luc came up with one himself, and started THIS THREAD.  He asked a few of us from the Yahoo group to join here in developing the most critical part of running a car on tap water only (no hydrolysis etc.) which we did join in here together for a united group effort and keeping EVERYTHING PUBLIC DOMAIN for everyone to share and reap the benefits thereof!

The most difficult part over the last 3 years in the Yahoo group was trying to get S1R to list his parts and circuit schematic.  He sort of did, but much of it was wrong and wouldn't work and really couldn't explain most of it.  Others in that group who were electronics experts, tinkerers, scientists etc, all pulled together to try and figure out what S1R supposedly did with the El Camino.

Luc was motivated by S1R's video, and the fact S1R wouldn't divulge his parts list or circuit (and still hasn't after 2 or 3 weeks now), and actually hid the circuit in a silver painted  (what looks like a plastic butter or margarine tub) and Luc intuitively figured, "he's hiding it, and it's small, so it must really be simple."  Luc then came up with his first workable circuit to create a plasma arc on a spark plug, started this thread for EVERYONE to try to work together to this end, and once accomplished, move on to making a car run on water.

That has been, and IS the purpose of this thread from its inception.  Everything else is extraneous, although good information potentially, but not what this thread is about. 

Is an ICE (internal combustion engine) overunity... No!  Is it efficient... No!  Is the COP > 1... No! and WHO CARES.  We are all driving them and spending more at the gas pumps than we EVER have historically and it's going to go higher... much higher, PLUS ICE's are polluting our planet.

A car that runs on water using an ICE will NOT be overunity, simply because of the inefficiency of an ICE... again, who cares!  A car that runs on water is 100% pollution free however, and WE ALL SHOULD CARE ABOUT THAT!

Our collective goal is to rid us ALL of our dependence on fossil fuels and use something that literally costs us nothing to obtain (rainwater, pond/lake water, etc.) or very little cost as in tap water from our garden hoses. 

That was Luc's idea for this thread, and I for one, am 100% behind it.  But the FOCUS must remain and not deviate from the first task at hand.

I hope everyone is now caught up as to what this thread is about and where we plan to go with it.  Thanks Luc for trying to provide a totally Focused group here.  Unfortunately, no thread is without the "crapsters" that talk and don't care what a given thread is about, nor do they even take the time to read though it from the beginning to find out what its about.  They just want to talk. 

It just makes it harder to stay on task, PLUS weeding through all the off topic posts makes it more difficult to actually get to the posts with breakthroughs, new developments and ways to improve what we are attempting to do here.

Regards,
Geo
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bw on July 08, 2008, 05:09:05 AM
I haven't read every post yet but on page 16 some folks were having trouble getting engines to run without kick back on the piston.  Try to find a way to retard the engine spark timing several degrees.  The kickback is from pre-detonation.  Advance the engine timing so the spark occurs well after the piston reaches top dead center and begins to travel downward.  Pre=detonation occurs when the spark occurs too far before t.d.c.   On older engines timing is adjusted by loosening the distributor and turning one direction or the other to advance or retard while watching the mark with a timing light.  I have no idea how to adjust newer engines timing setting.  Hydrogen burns differently than gasoline and will fire much faster so the engine timing should be adjusted to avoid damage. 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: allcanadian on July 08, 2008, 06:10:38 AM
@Gotoluc
Quote
Hi allcanadian, thank you for answering my call

Oh crap, you know I don't perform well under stress :D

@NerzhDishual
Quote
Have you also ever try to 'redraw' some of his patent figures in a
more convenient/logical/QiMan way?
Yes, I have below and in an earlier post the cap charger is the same patent 568177 minus the Pri/Sec with a diode. ;D

If I could make a few comments I would say, I mean no offence but all this talk of engines and sparkplugs seems very premature, kind of like deciding how to cook your chicken before you have an egg. If an efficient means to produce a large scale plasma discharge is not produced we have nothing. The capacitor charging circuit in my last post is the easiest way I know of to replace the inverter/rectifier section of Gotoluc's circuit. This is a Tesla circuit yes, but this does not have to turn into another tesla thread, we have a goal to pursue. The next phase I am working on is the plasma process itself which I have already started .The question I had to ask first is what is happening here? this is not a standard HV arc as Gotoluc and Qiman have shown in there videos, it is not produced by the rectified inverter current as Qiman has shown. A known amount of energy in a capacitor has completely changed the qualities of its discharge from anything we know . These qualities have also changed the extent of interaction with matter (water vapor), I think a common goal would be to determine the exact "cause" of why the qualities of the plasma discharge have changed and what circuit properties have instigated this change. This would seem to be the most logical course of action if one is to improve both the efficiency and magnitude of the effect. In any case I will be working in that direction in the next few weeks and post the results.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: jymboche on July 08, 2008, 06:11:03 AM
Hello all,
Been on the forums for a while, and finally thought i would register to post  :)
Anyway, There is a Japanese Van on youtube that runs on water http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1OWDcWoXHs
It runs by injecting hydrogen into the cylinder which ignites (not enough to power the piston alone) and then immediately injects water vapor (i think) which then expands from the heat created by the hydrogen explosion giving it that extra umph to drive the piston. There is a translated version which i think someone posted on here earlier. Would it not be feasible to use this enhanced sparkplug/circuit to do that? Just an idea....
sorry if i come off as an idiot.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: nightlife on July 08, 2008, 06:31:29 AM
So far I understand that a HV spark from the coil is seeking the source of the low voltage when present and when it hits the diodes that are placed between, it is slammed back intensifying the voltage as it seeks the closest ground.

 If I am right with what I have understood, then why cant we just install diodes between a positive lead from the battery and the spark plug and then slip the plug wire on over it?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 08, 2008, 06:48:10 AM
@Gotoluc
Oh crap, you know I don't perform well under stress :D

@NerzhDishualYes, I have below and in an earlier post the cap charger is the same patent 568177 minus the Pri/Sec with a diode. ;D

If I could make a few comments I would say, I mean no offence but all this talk of engines and sparkplugs seems very premature, kind of like deciding how to cook your chicken before you have an egg. If an efficient means to produce a large scale plasma discharge is not produced we have nothing. The capacitor charging circuit in my last post is the easiest way I know of to replace the inverter/rectifier section of Gotoluc's circuit. This is a Tesla circuit yes, but this does not have to turn into another tesla thread, we have a goal to pursue. The next phase I am working on is the plasma process itself which I have already started .The question I had to ask first is what is happening here? this is not a standard HV arc as Gotoluc and Qiman have shown in there videos, it is not produced by the rectified inverter current as Qiman has shown. A known amount of energy in a capacitor has completely changed the qualities of its discharge from anything we know . These qualities have also changed the extent of interaction with matter (water vapor), I think a common goal would be to determine the exact "cause" of why the qualities of the plasma discharge have changed and what circuit properties have instigated this change. This would seem to be the most logical course of action if one is to improve both the efficiency and magnitude of the effect. In any case I will be working in that direction in the next few weeks and post the results.

Hi allcanadian,

If you are refering to how might a plasma discharge effect and explode the water such that it may release more energy then what was put into it. Please see this post:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.msg109420.html#msg109420

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: whopper1967 on July 08, 2008, 07:46:27 AM
I was thinking about this today,like in capacitor70s case,where he has it running,wouldnt a hydrogen booster help it run better,after all,I can run my riding mower on about 1.5 lpm,not well,but it will  idle.I know this isnt a long term solution,but it could help the motor run long enough to get warm,then cut the hho off to straight water.I believe the motors may run when warm....just a thought.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: greendoor on July 08, 2008, 09:11:26 AM
I can sense a lot of frustration and anger from some people in this thread - because of confusion.  Very probably some of this confusion is deliberate sabotage.  But probably most of it is just communication difficulties - and semantics ARE important to avoid confusion.

Overunity - the word is meaningless.  Some say it's important, others say "who cares? - Just make it work!".  I believe we are all meaning the same thing, but using a poor choice of word.

IF the energy to create the spark is Less than the Power obtained from the power stroke - we are wasting energy.  The motor will not "run" on water - it will "run" on Electricity, which we will have to purchase.  This is obviously not going to liberate us from Big Oil.  So can we agree that we need "over-unity" in the sense that the power output of the spark-induced explosion Has to be greater than the power input supplied by the battery.  This should be a no-brainer - so why are we fighting over this?

Most importantly: there are still people at this late stage in the thread talking about Hydrogen and Burning and High Amps and Mist.  The working principle and source of available energy has been explained in detail - yet some are persisting on the wrong path than can only lead to failure. 

Big thanks to allcanadian!  Brilliant charging circuit - thank you, thank you!  And excellent advice about not putting the cart before the horse.

Our belief in the actual working principle of this energy source will change how we build, and ultimately lead to success or failure. 

We clearly aren't all on the same page - and no doubt I am angering some of you right now.  My intention is to bring focus and point out some of the ignor-ance and dis-information that seems to be sinking this thread. 

I personally feel I've been handed the keys to real free-energy and it really doesn't matter what anyone else thinks or does.  Or how civil or nasty they are in an internet thread. 

IMO these recurring ideas will lead to failure:

The idea that this is combustion of hydrogen - 1st mistake.  (We are liberating the Latent Heat of liquid Water in a low temperature process)

The idea that mist is required (and forgive me for mentioning ultrasonic misters earlier on - I didn't know the principle at that time).  If the energy comes from the transition of water into vapour - if we start with vapour, there is no energy left.  (Mist should be the Output of engine - not the Input.) 

The idea that higher current is required: Sure - we can make big sparks and blow up water, but at the huge expense of 10,000 J instead of 50 J by way of comparison.  This approach seems doomed to failure before we start.  (IMO, high voltage is needed to bridge the gap with plasma - and an extremely short high current pulse is required to explode the water.  High Amps ARE necessary - but not for very long, and not necessarily at high voltage.  Power = Volts x Amps - and we can't afford to waste either doing the wrong thing at the wrong time).

Brute force and ignorance are the answer to a lot of life's problems.  Just not this one.

We need intelligent circuit design - and to do that, we need to understand the basic principles we need the circuit to accomplish.

I shall shut up now.  Thanks to all those who have opened my eyes.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 08, 2008, 09:31:47 AM
Hi all,

Please see my latest two "Proof Of Concept" videos here:

http://www.youtube.com//m1a9r9s9

The first video as follows is the overall proof of concept setup which includes a demonstration of the plasma discharge used. Again, the video here no where near comes close to capturing the power in the arc discharge. It is simply just too fast for the video camera!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzawlY9jCFk

The second video as follows is the actual proof of concept demonstration where I show how exploding water from a plasma discharge when applied, in this case to a line trimmer motor, can push the piston of an engine down with significant force.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OTCqws_hsc

The line trimmer motor has been stripped to the bare motor including having the ignition magneto removed as the ignition pulse for this test uses a more powerfull standard automotive ignition coil. I also removed the bearing seals as this motor, being new, was quite tight and there was a great deal of friction caused by the bearing seals.

The power supply is simply a derivation of the previous circuits I have posted. The total discharge capacitance used was 500uf. Please see the circuit attached below.

In the setup video, where I show the spark plug discharges, I also show at the end how I sprayed water into the cylinder via the plark plug hole. I then would pull the recoil to mix the water up in the cylinder. I then screwed in the spark plug and pulled the recoil again to mix and splash the water all over inside of the cylinder and spark plug.

In the demonstration video, you can see me adjusting the cylinder position prior to the discharges such that the piston is only a few degrees retarded or past TDC as the cylinder has started to travel down. With the inverter power supply OFF, there is no movement of the engine's flywheel whatsoever even though the normal HV ignition sparks are occuring inside via the spark plug. This is because there is only water inside the cylinder and no traditional fuel such as petrol or anything else that is ignitable. Then, when the inverter power supply is turned ON, you can clearly see the flywheel kick over with force when the ignition coil is pulsed! It is clear that the plasma discharge from the power supply and discharge circuit are exploding the water inside the cylinder which is causing considerable pressure, via the expansion of water gas (fog), that pushes the piston down with considerable force.

After only a few of these discharges the flywheel stops turning. That is because all of the water making contact with the spark plug inside has been exploded off. But I can then simply just pull the recoil again which will cause the water in the cylinder to splash up and onto the spark plug.

Although, appropriately, I make no claims of the overall energy input, output and efficiency here, I have no doubt that the kinetic force generated by the exploding water within this engine, as demonstrated, will allow it to run using water only as the fuel once the appropriate ignition synchronisation and timing circuit has been built and put into place.

Please see below for a circuit diagram of the power supply and discharge circuit used. As well as some pictures of the proof of concept setup.

Regards,

Ossie
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hoptoad on July 08, 2008, 09:48:25 AM
The idea that this is combustion of hydrogen - 1st mistake.  (We are liberating the Latent Heat of liquid Water in a low temperature process)

The only problem I have with the idea that latent heat is being liberated in the process of converting liquid water to fog, is that under normal circumstances (e.g. evaporation), the latent heat quota of liquid water must be filled in order for the liquid to convert to a vapour state. That is, heat or other photonic energy is normally absorbed by the water (added to the water from an external source) for the conversion of liquid to vapour to occur. Latent heat energy is not released.

Latent heat is usually "liberated" when a vapour condenses back to a fluid, or a fluid is converted to solid. This is the opposite of what appears to be happening in the experiments shown.

The explanation given by Peter Graneau from Northeastern University Boston USA and Neal Graneau from Oxford University UK, is a little more involved than that, I know, but it still leaves me a little puzzled ?

Can anybody expand on the explanation given by Graneau. ? I am not disputing the explanation, but I am struggling to fully understand it.

Cheers all.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: wings on July 08, 2008, 09:50:18 AM
tesla like spark plugs:

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Firestorm_spark_plug

http://web.archive.org/web/20050307163215/www.robertstanley.biz/firestorm.htm

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: send_to_nice on July 08, 2008, 10:19:49 AM
Please see my latest two "Proof Of Concept" videos here:

NICE work! Seeing that engine turn over, i was screaming out "yes!!". I've been one of the people in this thread nagging for someone to prove how much power this spark has in it, and I am now convinced.

As has been said in here earlier today, if what s1r says is true and a plasma arc of huge proportions is what we need in order to run an engine with enough power to move a vehicle (or do useful work), I now have total confidence that this thread - all about improving the spark - is the best thing this concept needs.

Thanks for demonstrating this, Ossie.

Richard
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: DHCP on July 08, 2008, 11:19:05 AM
Hi
First post, I have been interested in the whole concepts of this forum since I watched Equinox "it runs on water back in 95.
Any way there is far to much info on here for my little brain but I have been wondering the purpose of the vibrator relays shown in some of the circuit diagrams, would they be possible to create a multibal spark say from TDC to 3/4* ATDC the reason I thought of this was watching the vid  below forgive my ignorance but imagine that reaction at the degrease stated in the comp chamber?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bs-Uk511S_I
Not only that but his setup looks to me like a crude version of Stan Meyers water infecter
Keep up the great work
Regards to you all
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Ricardoch on July 08, 2008, 11:52:15 AM
Hello all again,
As told some post before I worn out all my parts and waiting to restart with better protection, but there's something I think that maybe can help us all if possible to developp.

I used the hand switching between capacitor and coil approach. When succesful I changed to bigger capacitors to improve if possible the spark power, and sure it improved a little, enough to melt the plug.

Any case process is a little ticky, and the worse, it does not allow you to perform test in an easy and continuous way, at least for me, being a little impatient. (Sorry if English far from Shakespeare)


The question is:
As I am not able to design on my own a circuit to perform the pulses itself. Can you tell me if possible how to do or where to look for schemas for It?

I know signal generator and realys could do the trick, but those are not on my desk nor on everyone's budget, but I've seen some guys with more or less adjustable simple circuits that can change impulse rate as well as power pulses.

I think it could be very useful for everybody in order to look for the best parameters, as the ignition HV spark, low voltage power delivered through HV spark and so on, that at this moment I can test only once on every, hand-charge-capacitor-discharge-through-coil, hand-charge-capacitor-discharge-through-coil, melt-spark start over and so on...

Excuse my ignorance, there are more than 20 years I have to let away my very little electronic knowledge, (Knowledge?) and would most appreciate any help to build some kind of pulse automation to avoid wasting so much time in the tasks that have nothing to do with the real search.

Hope you can help.
Cheers.
Ri

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: tinu on July 08, 2008, 12:45:01 PM
The only problem I have with the idea that latent heat is being liberated in the process of converting liquid water to fog, is that under normal circumstances (e.g. evaporation), the latent heat quota of liquid water must be filled in order for the liquid to convert to a vapour state. That is, heat or other photonic energy is normally absorbed by the water (added to the water from an external source) for the conversion of liquid to vapour to occur. Latent heat energy is not released.

Latent heat is usually "liberated" when a vapour condenses back to a fluid, or a fluid is converted to solid. This is the opposite of what appears to be happening in the experiments shown.

The explanation given by Peter Graneau from Northeastern University Boston USA and Neal Graneau from Oxford University UK, is a little more involved than that, I know, but it still leaves me a little puzzled ?

Can anybody expand on the explanation given by Graneau. ? I am not disputing the explanation, but I am struggling to fully understand it.

Cheers all.

So am I and maybe a little more than that?
Have you seen my post on Graneau, at page 8?

Cheers,
Tinu
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alan on July 08, 2008, 12:50:39 PM
Alan,
OK, then take your motor out of your car and put an electric motor in, or continue with this shortsided banter and keep paying $4.35 per gallon (and on the rise) for gasoline.

@geo,

@geo
Hi, don't get me wrong, what I meant was, if it is not OU, it cannot work, just like running a car on HHO gas alone (seen from an conservation of energy point). I hope this is OU and it looks like it will be found out very soon.
(some suggestions:
if the motor runs, do some torque and rpm measurements.
replicate a combustion chamber to study the explosive energy (also said before by another armchair) )

I hope I do add something valuable, if not, sorry for polluting this thread any further.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: rednael on July 08, 2008, 01:00:58 PM
Hi Callanan.
Nice work, there seem to be sufficient force in that single pulse downstroke, maybe more than gasolin.

Now the question is.
What is the current the inverter is drawing, if you pulse this circuit above by let say 80hz squarewave instead of the switch. This would give (2stroke) 80revs x 60s = 4800rpm.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: greendoor on July 08, 2008, 01:29:18 PM
I think the Graneau document is extremely clear.  Fog/mist/water vapour has less latent heat energy than rain drops or liquid water. 

I've always wondered about mist.  We tend to think of mist as being steam - because it's associated with boiling kettles and such.  But steam is invisible.  The phase transition from water to steam occurs at 100 degrees C, give or take depending on pressure.  When we see water vapour - it's not steam.  And mist and fog are associated with cold temperatures. 

On a cold foggy morning - what turns the fog back into water? I'm not 100% sure, but i'm reasonably certain that it's the solar radiation that adds extra heat.  Whether it condenses to form water, or whether it takes off into the sky to form clouds - I don't know.  But it seems clear to me that A/ it doesn't get turned into steam, and B/ it absorbs a lot of energy before it becomes liquid water again.

I'm thinking that a closed loop system is probably going to require an extensive heat exchanger system, where it would clearly be seen that ambiant heat energy is absorbed from the environment in the process of distilling the vapour back into water to be reused.  I believe this is probably a valid mechanism for a perpetuum mobile of the second kind - an isothermal Maxwell Demon.  But that's probably considered off topic ...

Anyway - low temperature fog has often fascinated me regarding energy content, and I think it's becoming much clearer to me know.  There is energy here (in water), for certain.

If we take a quantity of water, add a small amount of energy, and output that water as vapour, which now lacks the hydrogen bonds holding it together - we know that energy is, allegedly, never created nor destroyed - so that energy is liberated in the process.

Sounds wierd - but seems to be whats happening.

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alan on July 08, 2008, 01:47:16 PM
@greendoor
Fog forms when water evaporates due to geothermal heat and makes contact to colder air.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fog no need to wonder anymore ;)

Quote
On a cold foggy morning - what turns the fog back into water?
I think because the fog get sataurated and bigger water drops are formed.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: greendoor on July 08, 2008, 01:56:02 PM
@greendoor
Fog forms when water evaporates due to geothermal heat and makes contact to colder air.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fog no need to wonder anymore ;)

That's an overly simplistic statement that doesn't work for me.  Are you saying that water is converted to steam (requiring temperature at boiling point) and that it condenses back into water when cooled by colder air?  Obviously not ... so what is the mechanism that turns liquid water into fog or mist?  I'm just saying i've never really understood this - although assumed it has something to do with brownian motion and kinetic heat energy.  My understanding has always assumed that fog or mist was like a transition stage between water and steam, and therefore at a higher energy level.  But that's clearly wrong ... so now i'm seeing it as a LOWER energy level than water ...

But don't quote me - i'm just trying to get my head around this stuff.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: greendoor on July 08, 2008, 02:09:56 PM
Sorry to rant off topic - but somebody might be interested in this tangent ... I have experience with an old arc projector that used carbon rods to provide a powerful light beam for a theatre.  I also have welding experience - so I am thinking, why limit ourselves to single shot sparks?  Could we maintain a plasma stream - or perhaps a rapidly pulsed plasma stream - immersed in water, designed to shoot a continuous stream of vapour in one direction.  Maybe a conical spark gap could be used?  Maybe a capacitor could be used to shear water into vapour in one direction ... is this energy related to cavitation energy?  Could a mechanical solution rip the water apart?  Maybe a Tesla turbine? 

Sorry - just dancing around the basic principle here - because I believe the best designs will come from an understanding of what's actually providing the energy ...
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alan on July 08, 2008, 02:10:46 PM
I'm saying that a water turns into vapor (no need to boil) and then bigger drops are formed by cold air forming fog.
Put a glass with water in your room and watch it's volume decrease after a day or 2, that's what I've seen.
I also don't know the mechanics underneath it, but a simple study (google wiki) will give you most of the details.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Dread on July 08, 2008, 02:21:13 PM
Callanan

Thank you for the demo and the work.
I am a little confused. When you rotated the crank with the cord pull (to disperse the vapor), why didn't the vapor just exit out of the exhaust port? had you sealed it closed?

Thanks again.
D     
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: wavez on July 08, 2008, 03:42:59 PM
As I am not able to design on my own a circuit to perform the pulses itself. Can you tell me if possible how to do or where to look for schemas for It?

I know signal generator and realys could do the trick, but those are not on my desk nor on everyone's budget, but I've seen some guys with more or less adjustable simple circuits that can change impulse rate as well as power pulses.

The lawton signal generator is one you could use to drive your relay. Or some other astable multivibrator.
Lawton signal generator:
fuel-efficient-vehicles.org/D14.pdf

I am using this circuit for single shot testing:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Bill_Bowden/555mono.gif
(circuit on the right)
That image is from this page, which includes explanations:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Bill_Bowden/page9.htm

I got my relay from an auto store and it cost me more than it had to; $25. My friend got one online for $5.

You could also use the circuit shown in section 4.1 on this page, "Extended duty cycle astable":
http://www.doctronics.co.uk/555.htm
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 08, 2008, 03:59:04 PM
Callanan

Thank you for the demo and the work.
I am a little confused. When you rotated the crank with the cord pull (to disperse the vapor), why didn't the vapor just exit out of the exhaust port? had you sealed it closed?

Thanks again.
D     

Hi Dread,

I rotated the crank to splash more water in the cylinder up onto the spark plug as it gets used and exploded off after a few discharges. This is a 2 stroke line trimmer engine and all ports are open, no carby or muffler.  No valves. If you see vapour coming out, this is from the few discharges I had done. No vapour was put into the cylinder. Only liquid water was pumped into the cylinder as shown at the end of the previous setup video.

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: petersone on July 08, 2008, 04:27:49 PM
Hi Ossie
It sounds like the plug could do with being upside down,or the whole thing,the water would be on the plug continuously.
Just my stupid observation.
happy hunting.
peter
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: tinu on July 08, 2008, 05:09:58 PM
Fog/mist/water vapour has less latent heat energy than rain drops or liquid water. 
Why is that?!

On a cold foggy morning - what turns the fog back into water? I'm not 100% sure, but i'm reasonably certain that it's the solar radiation that adds extra heat.  Whether it condenses to form water, or whether it takes off into the sky to form clouds - I don't know.  But it seems clear to me that A/ it doesn't get turned into steam, and B/ it absorbs a lot of energy before it becomes liquid water again.
Or C/ you simply need more study.
Water simply evaporates (as per your A/) because of the solar heat. When evaporating it absorbs energy. When turns to fog/mist/liquid it gives off energy as heat. It?s as simple as that.

If we take a quantity of water, add a small amount of energy, and output that water as vapour, which now lacks the hydrogen bonds holding it together - we know that energy is, allegedly, never created nor destroyed - so that energy is liberated in the process.
What energy is liberated and in what process?!! The energy that you provided in the first place? Huh!
And that?s not ?a small amount of energy? at all!

Please refrain posting such nonsense, ok?

@ all
Please just move on. The above is something that had to be corrected.
(Maybe a moderator can clean the mess. Thanks!)

Tinu
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: eserf on July 08, 2008, 05:30:00 PM
Hi guys, long time reader, very rare poster...  :D

Reading this had me remember a type of device used to vaporize any liquid that is small, and has no moving parts. It may be worth checking out, so at least as an aspect of the admission of water that can be regulated and controlled, eliminating one more variable: check it out ~ http://www.vapore.com/

They used to have some great videos, but I can't seem to find them anymore. Suffice to say, the obvious pressure and volume of the jet of vapor produced was very impressive.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 08, 2008, 05:32:01 PM
Hi Dread,

I rotated the crank to splash more water in the cylinder up onto the spark plug as it gets used and exploded off after a few discharges. This is a 2 stroke line trimmer engine and all ports are open, no carby or muffler.  No valves. If you see vapour coming out, this is from the few discharges I had done. No vapour was put into the cylinder. Only liquid water was pumped into the cylinder as shown at the end of the previous setup video.

Regards,

Ossie

Once again ;) great job Ossie.

One thing to keep in mind is once you have your timing system set up and you want the engine to work on its own, make sure you restrict your air intake. S1R has said this many times, when running on water you will not need much air intake since water itself contains Oxygen. So don't leave the intake open full, find some way to adjust it to find the correct balance.

You may want to keep the carby on as air regulator and drill a hole after the throttle body valve to fit a fine water hose.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alan on July 08, 2008, 05:38:13 PM
@eserf
Haven't read the site, but is it something like these:
http://www.mainlandmart.com/foggers.html
These are used in vivariums.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: goldenequity on July 08, 2008, 06:46:01 PM
As Capacitor70 got his kick-start engine to fire briefly on water; I feel it is relevant to this thread.
He summed things up in a post this morning
so I re-post his information to this thread as a reference for all:
Capacitor70 Design Details
Posted by: "capacitor" capacitor70@yahoo.co.in   capacitor70
Tue Jul 8, 2008 9:22 am (PDT)
1. I am not posting message on yahoo group, do not email me I will not
reply to email.
2. You can send me message on youtube or overunity.com to get reply.
3. Forum which contains all details is
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3977.new.html
4. Please read previous pages of forum for details.
5. Do not say tanks, nice idea on overunity forum, post only useful
information, Do not chat on forum, send personal message for any queries.

6. What I used in working model is
1. capacitor 330uF 400V.
2. 50Amps Rectifier.
3. 6A4 or 6A10 diodes. diodes are not stable it gets very hot.
4. Circuit is not stable many times it does not work properly due
to diodes.
5. Bulbs are to prevent surge current and protect inverter.
6. Engine Timings are not modified.
7. I don't have CDI unit on engine, so I use engines pulse pick up
coil to pulse Ignition coil through transistor.
8. Circuit also works well with engines CDI unit.
9. Nearly all single cylinder engine have -Ve high voltage
generation for spark, engine body acts as +ve for HV.
10. To Change -ve HV to +ve swap the ignition coil wires.
11. Chnage of -ve to +ve is simple for 3 wire ignition coils
12. For two wire ignition coil, coil core must be connected to +ve
and pulsing wire to -ve. (little difficult)
13. Spark plug is not modified, only resistance is removed from it.
14. It consumes spark plug very soon.
15. How to remove resistance is given in youtube videos see my
favorite.
16. Any part of engine is not modified.


7. I tried my circuit with 4 stroke 125CC bike engine and 2HP engine
it is not giving single fire. But it is giving little better
results with 80CC 4 Stroke engine Kinetic K4, as you seen in
youtube video.

8. Spark Plug shown in my photos is not used for this purpose, it
is HAJI (Hydrogen Assisted Jet Ignition System), Its not working.
Prechamber ignition for hydrogen engine.

Ideas
1. More you can do is ionize water before sending it to engine
carburetor.
2. Like Myers plug doing.
3. See Geet System for more research.

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: NETIKS on July 08, 2008, 06:56:51 PM
HELLO Everybody  im searching for water ioniser circuit with no success......
I can only find air ionizer circuits
If somebody can help...thanks
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: pilot on July 08, 2008, 07:12:34 PM
Could someone please clarify something for me?
I don't know how to post images and diagrams here so I will just have to describe what I am talking about.

On page 1, there is a picture diagram and a circuit diagram. In my view they are significantly different. The picture diagram (the circuit I am using) does not have a 12 volt source connected to the ignition coil. A capacitor is discharging through the the ignition coil while 120v rectified DC is added to the discharge via diodes.

In the circuit diagram (callanan's circuit) the coil is building it's charge from a 12v battery and when the spark is triggered a capacitor that is charged via 240v inverter releases it's charge on top of the ignition coil spark.

Is this correct or am I missing something?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: retrod on July 08, 2008, 07:31:52 PM
@all, S1R9A9M9 has released his coil design today to the water fuel 1978 Yahoo group. He says the video showing the 18hp B&S engine used this coil design and did not use an inverter or diodes. Check it out.

RD
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hydrocontrol on July 08, 2008, 07:45:56 PM
@all, S1R9A9M9 has released his coil design today to the water fuel 1978 Yahoo group. He says the video showing the 18hp B&S engine used this coil design and did not use an inverter or diodes. Check it out.

RD
Strange.. 14 gauge uninsulated wire  for one of the windings ??? This sounds like a copper core instead of a iron core transformer. I will have to wrap my brain around the construction description. A picture would be helpful here. I suspect something is missing from the description as it does not make sense.

I am thinking that the design by Allcanadian on page 16 (??) of this thread  using just a 12 volt iron core transformer, a diode and a cap is a much simpler method.

Got a bunch of parts from Ebay so a trip to RadioShaft and a bit of time should see if I can get a plasma spark. Got a 7hp Briggs Electric start engine to play with so at least my arm (or leg) will not get sore from starting.  ::)

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: tinu on July 08, 2008, 08:45:04 PM
Another useful doc

http://www.untoldmysteries.com/extraordinary/HARD-Evidence-CAR-ENGINE-on-Tap-WATER-PlasmaSpark-Hydrogen-Fuel-Free%20Energy-(539Kb)-untoldmysteries-com.pdf

Hi all,

I?m not sure if this document went largely unnoticed (thanks, stanis!) but after a quick reading I?d like to raise a couple of issues that bothers me. Maybe someone part of that group can help me solving the main question I have, which is about the temperature of the running engine. Is it running cold or hot? I?ve seen that actual power is slightly reduced and I?ve read a lot of other information but I was fervidly and unsuccessfully looking for the answer to what I consider to be a fundamental question: Tout should tell us a lot and it is not even mentioned
Well, what bothers me also in connection to the above question is the fact that 800W (give or take) is clearly not enough to make the engine running hot (steam is surely out of question) so, why the condenser in the modified tank?! On the other hand, if the engine runs cold (let?s assume for the sake of debate that it violates the 2nd principle) then it will actually evacuate cold vapors and keep cooling up to the point of ice formation; tank structure doesn?t justify either as it would make more harm than good.

Please comment.

Many thanks,
Tinu
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: retrod on July 08, 2008, 09:26:31 PM
Strange.. 14 gauge uninsulated wire  for one of the windings ??? This sounds like a copper core instead of a iron core transformer. I will have to wrap my brain around the construction description. A picture would be helpful here. I suspect something is missing from the description as it does not make sense.

I am thinking that the design by Allcanadian on page 16 (??) of this thread  using just a 12 volt iron core transformer, a diode and a cap is a much simpler method.

Got a bunch of parts from Ebay so a trip to RadioShaft and a bit of time should see if I can get a plasma spark. Got a 7hp Briggs Electric start engine to play with so at least my arm (or leg) will not get sore from starting.  ::)



@hydrocontrol, I read it the same way, 'uninsulated copper wire' for a core yet further down the page a "nail" is mentioned to be added. I agree a few details are missing but it appears to be simple enough to replicate with what's been described so far.

RD
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on July 08, 2008, 10:23:27 PM
I would like to propose that, per Lucs request we keep this "on topic". So haveing seen the downloaded the PDF from S1R, we start a NEW topic for the discussion of his coil based S1r system. And keep THIS topic for the diode/bridge setup.

So i started one...LOL

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5112.msg111015.html#msg111015
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hydrocontrol on July 08, 2008, 10:32:42 PM
I would like to propose that, per Lucs request we keep this "on topic". So haveing seen the downloaded the PDF from S1R, we start a NEW topic for the discussion of his coil based S1r system. And keep THIS topic for the diode/bridge setup.

So i started one...LOL

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5112.msg111015.html#msg111015

Good idea. This thread should remain a alternate-better research method for making a plasma spark.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: TheOne on July 08, 2008, 10:37:39 PM
Thanks  TheOne

2  concerns  I have with the  pulstar 
Will it  handle   the inverter  current?   The  diagram shows the  pulse circuit  in line  with the  center  conductor .

About   the  gap
Their   Fac  sheet  says

Q: What gap setting do I use for Pulstar??

A: If your vehicle manual calls for a gap less than .040" then use the factory recommended settings. Under no circumstances should you set the gap to greater the .040", regardless of the manual setting. Back to top

Could  it  be that to big of a gap  causes  higher  voltage in the plug and could   burn  the pulse circuit out?

I think I  like the Torque Master better
I also think that  the  Torque Master design  might  help    with  oil  fouling like   Capicator   had trouble with

gary

I got the answer from pulstar

Quote
The short answer is yes and the short term result is a decay of the electrode

link: http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Pulstar_Pulse_Plug
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Ricardoch on July 08, 2008, 11:19:03 PM
@ wawez
Many thanks for the info on timers, It will help a lot.

@all
I read the post concerning S1r coil description and the new thread, so noticed that S1r announced inverters are not needed anymore as well he says the new coil design does not require to modify the motor timing.
(Tesla around?)
maybe this could be the way to avoid melting inverters ??  ;D
Ri
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: geovel56 on July 08, 2008, 11:36:33 PM
Hi everyone,

Here is a picture of S1R's coil.  I took the liberty to enhance the picture by placing "readable" text by everything he had in his picture.  Hope this helps!

Regards,
Geo
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: AbbaRue on July 09, 2008, 12:19:19 AM
Hi All
One can buy a room humidifier that uses an ultrasonic transducer to transform water into vapor.
The unit I've seen uses about 15 watts to produce as much vapor as 1500 watts would boiling it.
The vapor from one of those could be injected into this unit.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: dirt diggler on July 09, 2008, 12:27:17 AM
Hi All
One can buy a room humidifier that uses an ultrasonic transducer to transform water into vapor.
The unit I've seen uses about 15 watts to produce as much vapor as 1500 watts would boiling it.
The vapor from one of those could be injected into this unit.


Good idea AbbaRue.

I'm wondering if to make the whole electical part more efficiant, this could be used in place of the light bulb in the circuit. then there is less waste in the system as a whole.

ciao,  Dirt
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Gearhead on July 09, 2008, 03:03:12 AM
Do you think ionized water would help?  There are ionizers available that will ionize water enough to change the Ph down to 2.5 or up to 11.  The claim is that when water is ionized to high Ph (alkaline) it takes on a hexagonal cluster shape.  I wonder if this is how a Joe cell conditions the water?  At any rate it may be a way to add energy to the water to get more power from an IC engine.

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 09, 2008, 03:35:47 AM
Hi all,

Just some errata pointed out to me by Ben on the schematic of my last post of the Proof Of Concept setup. The household light globes are mistakenly drawn in series but are actually connected in parallel relative to each other only. Also, the output from the string of diodes in the discharge circuit should be connected to the spark plug's ground base and not it's top pin. Apologies for these mistakes.

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: tishatang on July 09, 2008, 03:53:57 AM
@callanan
It was a thing of beauty to see that engine "fire" . 

A thought came to me that is easy to try.  Add a little hydrogen peroxide to the spray bottle and see if there is more of a reaction.    Maybe the engine will start easier if perhaps there is some disassociation of the H2 and O2 and the spark might ignite some of the molecules.  Maybe this will aid the conversion of water to vapor state?  Sort of act as a catalyst by a little combustion to the process?

hydrogen peroxide (hydrogen dioxide) mixes well with water and in high concentration is a rocket fuel. 

tishatang
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: michaelpaul on July 09, 2008, 05:40:18 AM
Hi all. I have read with interest the past posts and I have a question, of the drawing back on post #653. Ossie shows in his drawing near the coil, a device labled C3, which I believe is a capacitor? What is the value and is it a cap? I have everything else just about wired up and I need this help.
Thanks, Mike
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 09, 2008, 06:14:48 AM
Hi all. I have read with interest the past posts and I have a question, of the drawing back on post #653. Ossie shows in his drawing near the coil, a device labled C3, which I believe is a capacitor? What is the value and is it a cap? I have everything else just about wired up and I need this help.
Thanks, Mike

Hi Mike,

2uf, 250V bipolar. The values are not that imprtant for the test. You can also use an auto distrbutor condensor here which is made for this purpose.

Regards,

Ossie
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: livingwaters08 on July 09, 2008, 06:57:49 AM
Hi all,

I?m not sure if this document went largely unnoticed (thanks, stanis!) but after a quick reading I?d like to raise a couple of issues that bothers me. Maybe someone part of that group can help me solving the main question I have, which is about the temperature of the running engine. Is it running cold or hot? I?ve seen that actual power is slightly reduced and I?ve read a lot of other information but I was fervidly and unsuccessfully looking for the answer to what I consider to be a fundamental question: Tout should tell us a lot and it is not even mentioned
Well, what bothers me also in connection to the above question is the fact that 800W (give or take) is clearly not enough to make the engine running hot (steam is surely out of question) so, why the condenser in the modified tank?! On the other hand, if the engine runs cold (let?s assume for the sake of debate that it violates the 2nd principle) then it will actually evacuate cold vapors and keep cooling up to the point of ice formation; tank structure doesn?t justify either as it would make more harm than good.

Please comment.

Many thanks,
Tinu

Tinu,
IMO there will be friction......where there is friction, there is heat.
Livingwaters08

Title: 7 degree temp drop
Post by: qiman on July 09, 2008, 08:09:47 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cInPBfJ2nT0
7 degree temp drop
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Dazzasta on July 09, 2008, 02:29:07 PM
Hi all,

This is my first post, i've been following this forum since christmas, and got my '81 landcruiser running on hydrogen, but until now didn't feel i had anything to offer.
This may sound really basic although i am;;;;;;; As i uderstand the inverter is used to supply amps with the coil discharge accross the spark gap to creat the plasma arc; but when using 110v or 240v you are supplimenting volts for amps, has anyone tried getting rid of the transformer and rectifiers and connecting straight to 12v or 24v along with coil discharge.
Although this may be a delicate act of the right amount of volts, the right amount of amps, the right amount of water and the right engine to get this thing going, it's well worth the effort.

hope i've been some help.
Keep up the good work
Title: Re: 7 degree temp drop
Post by: tinu on July 09, 2008, 03:29:21 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cInPBfJ2nT0
7 degree temp drop

This piece of info is crucial! Many, many thanks and please accept me bothering you with several more questions. I?m currently working on deciphering the theory behind the main subject and any piece of experimental evidences will keep me on track.

1. A small white light is seen on the spark plug at all times. Is it the spot of the laser gun (and the spot where you take temperature readings)? If not, does the light mean something or it is just an artifact of the camera / reflection of the main light in the room? Also, if not, where does the IR gun take readings more exactly?

2. Temperature drop is from 77F (25C) to 70F (21.1C) in about 4s then the sparks are interrupted. (I don?t know if this is purposely or accidental). Can you please re-make the experiment for a longer discharge time (10-15s) and then also by adding a mist of water for comparison?

3. Please confirm that the IR thermometer is TE 261, having an accuracy of +/-2% (4F/2C), automatic compensation for temperature deviations from ambient temperature, sample rate 1s; if different, please let me know the specifications/model.

4. As far as I know, IR thermometers are based on emissivity values and consequently they may be severely affected because of that. Do you think that light from the discharge may severely confuse the thermometer thus affect the readings? If so, is it possible to place a thin&black object in between the spark and IR sensor and to repeat the measurements? Thin ? for small thermal inertia; black for blocking the light; surface properties and emissivity value may be adjusted through a different calibration experiment.

Again, I thank you very much in advance and please apologize for any trouble. Imho, the results of your experiments may be fundamental for advancing into the water-engine issue.

Best regards,
Tinu
Title: Re: 7 degree temp drop
Post by: gotoluc on July 09, 2008, 03:32:17 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cInPBfJ2nT0
7 degree temp drop

Thank you Aaron for doing once again an important test and great video demonstration to show there is something quite interesting going on here.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: allcanadian on July 09, 2008, 04:21:41 PM
@quiman
Congratulations, You are one of very few people to get this far :)
It's interesting that this effect(electrostatic cooling) is almost completely absent in the scientific literature but has been around for a very long time. The most noteable person to utilize this effect was Victor Schauberger some 80 years ago, many people equate Schauberger with water and the vortex but this was only a small part of his work. Victor stated he could produce 2 million volts potential from a single drop of water using capilliary tubes and a small suction source! and the resultant "cold expansion" could produce a large temperature drop. In the right context this cold expansion could also produce a perfect vacuum to power his devices . In our world we equate heat with expansion and cold with contraction but this seems to be a bit of an illusion as heat and cold are not "something" they are a condition of "something". If only heat expands and only cold contracts then why is our cold upper atmosphere at a low pressure? It should be very dense if it has supposedly contracted. We could also say radiating energy is expansive relative to the source and contractive relative to its target. In any case if heat is not produced I think it is safe to assume the forces involved are electrostatic in nature, as everthing is.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: DrStiffler on July 09, 2008, 04:46:23 PM
@quiman & All

Interesting indeed as I have worked with electrostatic cooling for some 5 years now, it is still a thrill to see how many different ways it can be invoked.

For a starter for those that are not familiar with the effect you could start at http://www.rexresearch.com/blomgren/blomgren.htm and a google in the subject will bring up many interesting papers, it seems welding is familiar with the effect. I am also aware that NASA has and is doing research in this area.

Now a simple question, the cooling in the video appears to go down at a near constant rate, but once the arc is stopped it at once returns to the 77' mark, I'm not understanding why we wuld not see a ramp back up to the 77', if surfaces are cooled how do they at once obtain instant ambient temperature?

Thanks, forever interesting.....
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: alan on July 09, 2008, 05:10:27 PM
@qiman
There are things happening in the spark which we don't fully understand. I was thinking, maybe the ir light from the ir temperature meter is being absorbed or manipulated or whatever, therefore it isn't showing the correct temperature. Maybe a low-tech temp-meter should be used, just to be sure it is really dropping.
Just a thought. 8)

(I see tinu asked the same)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: goldenequity on July 09, 2008, 07:29:21 PM
For those with a spark/arc setup.... I have a simple idea that I would like someone to try out.
then again, maybe not so simple, but you never know... until you find out.

The concept would be to use capillary action.... instead of fog and mist.

A bottle of water suspended with a capillary tube output that enables a small "ball" of water to hang at its tip.
Place the "ball" between the electrodes and fire it up and tell us what happens.

I would think getting the tube to "re-feed" another "ball" in sync with the next spark might be a problem,
but I would think we could fire off at least one. ;D

Just a thought.  :)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ramset on July 09, 2008, 07:36:08 PM
Does any one know if the ceramic formula for a spark plug is difficult to duplicate ? Chet
Actually I just realized something    ceramic epoxies are used on the shuttle   ITW developed this Tech for NASA years ago and marketed it later on   and it is still available   However they where fighting high temp this does not seem relevant here[temp]so casting a plug with a water jacket just got a lot easier
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: HHOwanabe on July 09, 2008, 07:39:59 PM
Hi all.  Please HELP!
I am not an EE and not that good at auto mechanics either. But I am very excited about the work you all are doing on making a (standard) internal cumbustion engine run on water. It looks very doable and promising.  I got so excited I wanted to try Ossi's experiment as posted on page 6 reply #235.  I bought all the parts, except the strobe light which I could not find.  Now, looking at the diagram and pictures it appears the battery + and - wires go into the strobe light and from there the + wire seems to go through the coil + side to the plug AND around the coil to the plug (with diodes in this path to protect against curent backflow (layman terms). The - wire looks like it goes to the coil - side then to ground at (effectively) the plug base.  It also appears (in the video) that the strobe light creates a pulsing action that causes the plug to spark about every second.  So, I decided since I did not have the strobe light, I could just wire up the  test according to the digram and pictures, (making sure the diodes were wired in the same direction) then connect the - wire to the battery - terminal.  To complete the circuit and create a spark, I would just tap the + wire to the + batery terminal.  But alas when I tried this, no spark?  Then, I disconnected the + wire from the + side of the coil and the plug, tapped the + wire to the + side of the battery, and wala, spark!  In laymans terms, is that strobe light providing some magical separation of the current such that it goes to directly to the plug sometimes then breaks that current to go through the coil to the plug the next time?  Thanks all of you for your research and for the help you provide to those of us not quite as talented as yourselves.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: resonanceman on July 09, 2008, 08:04:04 PM
Does any one know if the ceramic formula for a spark plug is difficult to duplicate ? Chet
Actually I just realized something    ceramic epoxies are used on the shuttle   ITW developed this Tech for NASA years ago and marketed it later on   and it is still available   However they where fighting high temp this does not seem relevant here[temp]so casting a plug with a water jacket just got a lot easier


Ramset

On my  thread

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5088.0.html

In  reply 4  I have  the part #  and link  for  what I plan to try .

It is  a 2 part  mix


I have not  tried it  yet   


gary

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 09, 2008, 10:45:58 PM
Hi all.  Please HELP!
I am not an EE and not that good at auto mechanics either. But I am very excited about the work you all are doing on making a (standard) internal cumbustion engine run on water. It looks very doable and promising.  I got so excited I wanted to try Ossi's experiment as posted on page 6 reply #235.  I bought all the parts, except the strobe light which I could not find.  Now, looking at the diagram and pictures it appears the battery + and - wires go into the strobe light and from there the + wire seems to go through the coil + side to the plug AND around the coil to the plug (with diodes in this path to protect against curent backflow (layman terms). The - wire looks like it goes to the coil - side then to ground at (effectively) the plug base.  It also appears (in the video) that the strobe light creates a pulsing action that causes the plug to spark about every second.  So, I decided since I did not have the strobe light, I could just wire up the  test according to the digram and pictures, (making sure the diodes were wired in the same direction) then connect the - wire to the battery - terminal.  To complete the circuit and create a spark, I would just tap the + wire to the + batery terminal.  But alas when I tried this, no spark?  Then, I disconnected the + wire from the + side of the coil and the plug, tapped the + wire to the + side of the battery, and wala, spark!  In laymans terms, is that strobe light providing some magical separation of the current such that it goes to directly to the plug sometimes then breaks that current to go through the coil to the plug the next time?  Thanks all of you for your research and for the help you provide to those of us not quite as talented as yourselves.

 I'm not sure I understand you but there is only one wire hooked to + on the coil. The strobe acts as a set of points would in an ignition system.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: HHOwanabe on July 09, 2008, 11:33:41 PM
Bumfuzzled,
Thanks for the quick response.  According to the diagram (on pg 6 reply #235) the + wire goes from the strobe to the + side of coil.  In that path, is a conection for another wire (with diodes) that goes to the plug cap.  In the picture, that second wire actually comes from the + side of the coil to the plug cap.  The coil output (large plug wire) also goes to the plug cap.  I used 14g wire for the primary wiring and 10g wire to go from the coil output to the plug.  I use gator clamps at the ends of all wires.  My plug is a Champion CJ8, which the salesman told me was a non-resistor plug.
I agree that the strob simply simulates a cars distributor.  But what I don't understand, is why when I wire up this test as shown in the diagram and pictures (without the strobe though) I get no spark when I tap the + side of the battery with the  wire going to the coils + terminal.  If I remove the wire going from the + coil terminal to the plug, I do get a (normal) spark.  Totaly confused???
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: lasher23 on July 09, 2008, 11:51:47 PM
Hello all,

I'm a novice, but I've been working on this project too. I fried my inverter and I've decided to use allCanadians cap charging circuit with my setup. I've got everything setup andI can charge my HV cap
to over a thousand volts easily enough. My problem is that the voltage leaks out of the cap very, very quickly. I know this is a newb question, but how do I dump that voltage quickly into my coil? I'm trying to be of use, but if this post is too off topic, delete it and I'll figure it out myself.

Thanks for any assistance.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: NerzhDishual on July 10, 2008, 01:03:27 AM

Hi AllCanadian and All(Canadian and else ;D)

IMHO, we are on the same pages...
My motto is : Back to Basics...

Two examples:
1) The programming language FORTRAN II has 4 major instructions:
a) Test: IF(Logical_Expression) Label1, Label2, Label3
b) Affectation: Variable = Expression
c) {ON expression} GOTO Label{s}
d) DO label, Expression (this could be avoided by using IF and GOTO)

I had in my archives an old LISP compiler written in FORTRAN II.
I 're-wrote' this compiler in a more 'modern' (but Basic :)) language.

2) To design a software for a (one color) "Computer Drafting Table" (what do you call
that?), you only need 3 instructions:
a) Pen Up
b) Pen Down
c) GOTO X,Y
I have done it: a (first level) DXF interpreter with an old  but very 'accurate'
TEKTRONIC(?) Table that was only given these 3 basic instructions.
----------------------------------------------------------------
This is not to boast about anything, but just for pointing out that, IMHO, the
simplest the best for first testing and figuring out how things could work.
I do believe that nature is simple and that we must also be simple and humble.
"Heureux les simples d'esprit, ils seront les premiers au royaume des cieux".
-----------------------------------------------------------------
At the beginning you got an egg. Then a chicken.....
...............................
I mean no offence but all this talk of engines and sparkplugs seems very premature, kind
of like deciding how to cook your chicken before you have an egg...
.....................................................

Now, just for the fun(?), some interpretations of 2 Tesla patents:

(http://freenrg.info/Pic/AllCanadian_Tesla_Pat_568177_Outline.jpg)
(http://freenrg.info/Pic/My_Tesla_pat_568177_Redraw.jpg)
(http://freenrg.info/Pic/My_Tesla_pat_609250_Redraw.jpg)

Do you see any differences?
I swear that I was not aware of my first drawing when I did the second one some weeks later.

Keep cool, the said Tesla patents are here:
http://freenrg.info/Patents/Tesla/TESLA_US00568177.pdf (http://freenrg.info/Patents/Tesla/TESLA_US00568177.pdf)
http://freenrg.info/Patents/Tesla/TESLA_US00609250.pdf (http://freenrg.info/Patents/Tesla/TESLA_US00609250.pdf)

Best


 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: qiman on July 10, 2008, 01:17:35 AM
That video showed only a few seconds of a test. Not only long enough to see that the off time temp when shutting off has brought the temp down, but it did show that it did NOT increase it whereas for the same input conventionally with a regular spark DOES heat it up.

Here is what I also did to eliminate any interference, I measured the temp when it was off....ran it for several minutes...turn it off and measure again... the temp either stays the same or it drops. There is no effect from from EMP from the circuit, etc...

Anyway, everyone doing this probably has gotten this far. Just has anyone measured the temp of what they're getting?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 10, 2008, 01:35:32 AM
Bumfuzzled,
Thanks for the quick response.  According to the diagram (on pg 6 reply #235) the + wire goes from the strobe to the + side of coil.  In that path, is a conection for another wire (with diodes) that goes to the plug cap.  In the picture, that second wire actually comes from the + side of the coil to the plug cap.  The coil output (large plug wire) also goes to the plug cap.  I used 14g wire for the primary wiring and 10g wire to go from the coil output to the plug.  I use gator clamps at the ends of all wires.  My plug is a Champion CJ8, which the salesman told me was a non-resistor plug.
I agree that the strob simply simulates a cars distributor.  But what I don't understand, is why when I wire up this test as shown in the diagram and pictures (without the strobe though) I get no spark when I tap the + side of the battery with the  wire going to the coils + terminal.  If I remove the wire going from the + coil terminal to the plug, I do get a (normal) spark.  Totaly confused???

Sorry, I didn't build that circuit but you can try reversing the polarity on the coil primary. This is what I had to do to get mine to work with the other circuit. Hook everything back up and just swap the + and - on yer battery and see what happens.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 10, 2008, 05:50:06 AM
Hi all,

Does anyone find it interesting and somewhat coincedental that after many of us have advanced the technical understanding of how we can explode water quite simply and apply it to an engine here throughout this particular thread, that SR1 decides, after 3 years, to release detailed information that makes no sense whatsoever of supposedly how he does it, whilst at the same time making his intentions clear that he will be protecting his rights to what he believes he has discovered and invented.

We now find all sorts of threads have popped up because of this that are going in all sorts of directions based on the information he has provided? Very interesting indeed.....

Regards,

Ossie
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 10, 2008, 05:59:41 AM
Hi all,

Does anyone find it interesting and somewhat coincedental that after many of us have advanced the technical understanding of how we can explode water quite simply and apply it to an engine here throughout this particular thread, that SR1 decides, after 3 years, to release detailed information that makes no sense whatsoever of supposedly how he does it, whilst at the same time making his intentions clear that he will be protecting his rights to what he believes he has discovered and invented.

We now find all sorts of threads have popped up because of this that are going in all sorts of direction based on the information he has provided? Very interesting indeed.....

Regards,

Ossie

My thoughts exactly. There are too many things that don't add up between what he says and what the vid shows and what the pic and description of the coil shows. I think you and luc have hit too close to home for him so he's trying to throw a curve ball. If I recall he made several statements how he wasn't in it for the money and he wanted to help poor people yet he keeps everything hidden instead of letting it out so thousands of people can perfect it and get it to these poor people, then all the sudden he's talking about a patent. It sure got quiet in this thread after he came out with the new info.

Have you made any more progress?? Do you think we need a huge plasma arc to make this work?

 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: TheOne on July 10, 2008, 06:02:26 AM
Hi all,

Does anyone find it interesting and somewhat coincedental that after many of us have advanced the technical understanding of how we can explode water quite simply and apply it to an engine here throughout this particular thread, that SR1 decides, after 3 years, to release detailed information that makes no sense whatsoever of supposedly how he does it, whilst at the same time making his intentions clear that he will be protecting his rights to what he believes he has discovered and invented.

We now find all sorts of threads have popped up because of this that are going in all sorts of directions based on the information he has provided? Very interesting indeed.....

Regards,

Ossie

The thing I found weird about it is the new coil have nothing to do of what S1r described on his setup. Also he talked about inverter on his setup. On his original setup you needed some kind of relay with 2 diodes.

Now you dont any of that just need one special coil.

Hopefully its not disinformation, we will see in his next video on youtube about his coil setup
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: k4zep on July 10, 2008, 06:17:43 AM
Hi all,

Does anyone find it interesting and somewhat coincidental that after many of us have advanced the technical understanding of how we can explode water quite simply and apply it to an engine here throughout this particular thread, that SR1 decides, after 3 years, to release detailed information that makes no sense whatsoever of supposedly how he does it, whilst at the same time making his intentions clear that he will be protecting his rights to what he believes he has discovered and invented.

We now find all sorts of threads have popped up because of this that are going in all sorts of directions based on the information he has provided? Very interesting indeed.....

Regards,

Ossie

Ossie,

As much as I want to believe, and as much as I have learned from you and my own research, and as much as I am convinced that the process your are developing (that S1R says is not how he did it now!) has promise and that your engine and my engine will "run",........

 I will simply say if (baring a Radiant Event from unknown process of huge purportions) a 3 coil transformer hand wound over a nail with nothing but a large limited DC current flowing through 2 of the coils (7 turn and 13 turn)  encasing the 3rd coil (5 turn uninsulated!!!!!)  feeding the HV pulse from the original coil to the plug.......If this can provide a 200X boost in output current through the spark gap, the shifting of timing past TDC and this huge flash,  I'll eat that nail........I have also eaten crow in the past! 

Sorry S1R and all concerned, even with expressed sincerity and helpfulness, all have exceeded the limits of my gullibility..BS me once, shame on you, BS me twice, shame on me!...I guess we will have to carry on like ol Frank Sanatra sang ......."I'll do it my way"...............

Ben
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 10, 2008, 06:22:43 AM
Hello all,

I'm a novice, but I've been working on this project too. I fried my inverter and I've decided to use allCanadians cap charging circuit with my setup. I've got everything setup andI can charge my HV cap
to over a thousand volts easily enough. My problem is that the voltage leaks out of the cap very, very quickly. I know this is a newb question, but how do I dump that voltage quickly into my coil? I'm trying to be of use, but if this post is too off topic, delete it and I'll figure it out myself.

Thanks for any assistance.

Hi lasher23, are you using a Microwave oven capacitor? If so that would be the reason why you cap is leaking so fast as they have a built in resistor to keep draining it self in case the unit is serviced one would not accidentally electrocute them self.

If you go to a camera film store and ask them if they could give you a couple of disposable cameras (that they developed the film)  the ones with the built in flash you could use the capacitor in it as they are around 120uf and rated up to 300 volts but don't charge them to this you only need about 120 volts or less. Make sure to short the cap before you take then out.

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 10, 2008, 06:26:47 AM
The thing I found weird about it is the new coil have nothing to do of what S1r described on his setup. Also he talked about inverter on his setup. On his original setup you needed some kind of relay with 2 diodes.

Now you dont any of that just need one special coil.

Hopefully its not disinformation, we will see in his next video on youtube about his coil setup

Hi TheOne,

You should really hope that it is indeed disinformation. Because this will make sense and it will be more likely that what he is doing in his video is quite real. Or else if his videos are indeed hoaxes, then it would make sense for him to try and reinforce them by providing detailed information that made sense and related to what we have found and developed here in this thread. He could simply have copied most of it. But he hasn't. He has provided detailed information that doesn't make any sense and if it doesn't make sense then it most likely isn't true. This would then serve the purpose of hiding what he is doing which does give the impression that what he is showing in his videos is quite real.

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: 7 degree temp drop
Post by: livingwaters08 on July 10, 2008, 06:59:14 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cInPBfJ2nT0
7 degree temp drop

Temp. drop in an ICE would need to be determined.  Certainly could be cooler due to lack of explosive heat, but friction still will create heat along the cylinder walls, and any bearing surface.  So, IMO, no cold running ICE.  ;D

Livingwaters08
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ninjadaniel on July 10, 2008, 07:01:12 AM
Need some suggestions for ideas guys.  I recently got some nice plasma sparks by rigging up a similar system to xbox_hacker.

Ive used HV microwave diodes in parallel to block the HV and a 1000v 1a diode to block the LV from going back to the coil (which i am using my car to run).

Problems:
-  Spark doesnt explode like ones in video, even with mist added, still bloody bright though
-  Spark is very inconsistent
-  Does NOT work with rectified DC, perhaps something to do with the waveform in AC

I suspect that you cant pass LV via HV at the same time without creating a dead short, however i read something about a magnetic field around the plug generated by LV, being turned into plasma at the point of sparking, could be making the plasma?  Dont really know my physics, this is all speculation.   

When my inverter arrives i will attempt the same design with that, i will also try more/less diodes in parallel (to simulate more/less LV current).  I will also try xbox_hacker's voltage doubler, the 110v version and 240v (since im in australia).

Throw some ideas and criticism at me guys, its much appreciated!
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 10, 2008, 07:09:55 AM
Ossie,

As much as I want to believe, and as much as I have learned from you and my own research, and as much as I am convinced that the process your are developing (that S1R says is not how he did it now!) has promise and that your engine and my engine will "run",........

 I will simply say if (baring a Radiant Event from unknown process of huge purportions) a 3 coil transformer hand wound over a nail with nothing but a large limited DC current flowing through 2 of the coils (7 turn and 13 turn)  encasing the 3rd coil (5 turn uninsulated!!!!!)  feeding the HV pulse from the original coil to the plug.......If this can provide a 200X boost in output current through the spark gap, the shifting of timing past TDC and this huge flash,  I'll eat that nail........I have also eaten crow in the past! 

Sorry S1R and all concerned, even with expressed sincerity and helpfulness, all have exceeded the limits of my gullibility..BS me once, shame on you, BS me twice, shame on me!...I guess we will have to carry on like ol Frank Sanatra sang ......."I'll do it my way"...............

Ben

Hi Ben,

Right on! All of my tests have shown that only a higher power supply voltage ,and/or a higher capacitance discharge, will result in a more powerfull water explosion as long as you can get enough water to come in contact with the larger and stranger arc plasma. There doesn't seem to be any real way that I have seen or tested where you can put a "passive network" into the discharge circuit and get a larger water explosion. Let alone power the discharge circuit from as low a voltage as 12 volts. A passive network will only waste and reduce the energy of the discharge and as a consequence, the water explosion will be smaller.

Regards,

Ossie

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: livingwaters08 on July 10, 2008, 07:12:34 AM
Hello Group,
I believe that we will find quite a few ways of running an ICE on water.  Like the old saying goes..."there's more than one way to skin a cat," 

Let's be a little  more objective in our assessment of others working on this project.  Egos do get in the way!

Livingwaters08
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 10, 2008, 07:14:28 AM
Was looking in my Summit racing catalog tonight and saw this coil. http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=MSD%2D8261&N=700+115&autoview=sku

It puts out 45,000v at 2 amps. Is this possible? If so then why can't somebody just build a coil that puts out say 6 or 7 amps, even if you have to lose a lil HV. What am I missing here??
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: ninjadaniel on July 10, 2008, 07:17:06 AM
a custom coil- not a bad idea, id imagine it would be huge though.  Perhaps draw too much power from the battery?  normal coil draws 5 amps doesnt it?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 10, 2008, 07:26:22 AM
Was looking in my Summit racing catalog tonight and saw this coil. http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=MSD%2D8261&N=700+115&autoview=sku

It puts out 45,000v at 2 amps. Is this possible? If so then why can't somebody just build a coil that puts out say 6 or 7 amps, even if you have to lose a lil HV. What am I missing here??

Hi bumfuzzled,

Aren't you making an assumption that it "puts out" this voltage and amperage? If it were so, wouldn't it be putting out 90 kilowatts? This is enough power for 9 or 10 houses if it was continuous. I think you will find that it uses a pulsed current of 2 amps for a 12 volt system and will put out 45,000 volts but at very little current. At 100% efficiency it will only put out 533uAmps (micoamps) at 45,000 volts. A microamp is one millionth of an amp...

Regards,

Ossie
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Sprocket on July 10, 2008, 07:26:31 AM
Looking for confirmation, people have tried S1R's coil setup and it does not work - correct?

I was going to try it as I do not have capable diodes, or an inverter atm, but it looked too 'kooky' to be legit to me!  On the one hand it's sad to see yet another inventor chasing patents, yet heartening to see him scrambling to be 'helpful' all of a sudden, despite nere a peep out of him for a couple of years - makes me think that we are on the right path!!! :)
Title: Re: 7 degree temp drop
Post by: qiman on July 10, 2008, 08:53:49 AM
Temp. drop in an ICE would need to be determined.  Certainly could be cooler due to lack of explosive heat, but friction still will create heat along the cylinder walls, and any bearing surface.  So, IMO, no cold running ICE.  ;D

Livingwaters08

Yes, friction would still play a part to generate heat even if no explosive heat. I would use vacclaisocryptene additive to reduce friction to the lowest possible. It was developed for the oil/gas refinery industry by the oil/gas refinery industry to prevent maintenance on their own equipment. If anyone knows what the best would be, it is them. And YES, I am a dealer. www.vacclaisocryptene.com because I believe in it from my own results.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: qiman on July 10, 2008, 08:57:09 AM
@quiman
Congratulations, You are one of very few people to get this far :)
It's interesting that this effect(electrostatic cooling) is almost completely absent in the scientific literature but has been around for a very long time. The most noteable person to utilize this effect was Victor Schauberger some 80 years ago, many people equate Schauberger with water and the vortex but this was only a small part of his work. Victor stated he could produce 2 million volts potential from a single drop of water using capilliary tubes and a small suction source! and the resultant "cold expansion" could produce a large temperature drop. In the right context this cold expansion could also produce a perfect vacuum to power his devices . In our world we equate heat with expansion and cold with contraction but this seems to be a bit of an illusion as heat and cold are not "something" they are a condition of "something". If only heat expands and only cold contracts then why is our cold upper atmosphere at a low pressure? It should be very dense if it has supposedly contracted. We could also say radiating energy is expansive relative to the source and contractive relative to its target. In any case if heat is not produced I think it is safe to assume the forces involved are electrostatic in nature, as everything is.

You're exactly right. Ice cubes are cold and expand as they get colder. Water is the most dense at 4C, etc... and other anomalous phenomena attributed to water. I'm aware of electrostatic cooling but there may be something else at play. I'll "expand" on that later. LOL
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: qiman on July 10, 2008, 09:00:54 AM
@quiman & All

Interesting indeed as I have worked with electrostatic cooling for some 5 years now, it is still a thrill to see how many different ways it can be invoked.

For a starter for those that are not familiar with the effect you could start at http://www.rexresearch.com/blomgren/blomgren.htm and a google in the subject will bring up many interesting papers, it seems welding is familiar with the effect. I am also aware that NASA has and is doing research in this area.

Now a simple question, the cooling in the video appears to go down at a near constant rate, but once the arc is stopped it at once returns to the 77' mark, I'm not understanding why we wuld not see a ramp back up to the 77', if surfaces are cooled how do they at once obtain instant ambient temperature?

Thanks, forever interesting.....

Good question. The only thing that can be obtained from this test is that the before and after temp, regardless of any possible goofy phenomena with the pulsing and thermometer is that there is no net gain in temp no matter how long I run it. That vid was only a few short seconds but even running it longer...and I stop it and measure temp, there is no gain. Others have commented on how the plug feels cool as well and didn't get hot. It is most interesting. :)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: qiman on July 10, 2008, 09:03:54 AM
@qiman
There are things happening in the spark which we don't fully understand. I was thinking, maybe the ir light from the ir temperature meter is being absorbed or manipulated or whatever, therefore it isn't showing the correct temperature. Maybe a low-tech temp-meter should be used, just to be sure it is really dropping.
Just a thought. 8)

(I see tinu asked the same)

Hi, in my own forum, I think I suggested the same. Anyone could get a regular mercury thermometer for taking temperatures. Tape the bulb tightly to the threads or J electrode of the plug, super glue whatever and just let the thing run, then see if the temp increases. That would be a great analog test that rules out any possibility of interference. Doesn't change the fact that the temp with the IR digital thermometer shows before and after (without spark running) temp is the same and doesn't increase.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: whopper1967 on July 10, 2008, 09:15:27 AM
Hello all,let me ask you this.In capacitors circuit and I am pretty sure xboxs,the ignition coil must generate +ve hv for them to work,so,if like someone said earlier,most modern ignitions generate negative,is there any way to change that to positive?thanks all.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: greendoor on July 10, 2008, 10:35:07 AM
I will simply say if (baring a Radiant Event from unknown process of huge purportions) a 3 coil transformer hand wound over a nail with nothing but a large limited DC current flowing through 2 of the coils (7 turn and 13 turn)  encasing the 3rd coil (5 turn uninsulated!!!!!)  feeding the HV pulse from the original coil to the plug.......If this can provide a 200X boost in output current through the spark gap, the shifting of timing past TDC and this huge flash,  I'll eat that nail........I have also eaten crow in the past! 

Ben - maybe you should get prepared to eat that nail ...

As I understand it - what is required (after the initial HV low current spark) is a lower voltage high current discharge.  We don't actually know what voltage is needed for this secondary discharge - people are blowing up inverters because inverters are available off the shelf - but we haven't proved we need the voltage to be that high.  Some, including myself, have speculated about connected the 12V directly to the spark plug for the high current discharge.  (Remember - Graneau have given good science that it is Amps that blows the water apart - so at this stage in the process, unnessary voltage multiplication at the expense of current is counter-productive).

So very likely, a rudimentary coil of few turns is exactly what we need ... perhaps he is using multiple discharges at lower and lower volts (with higher and higher current) ...

Don't sneeze at this simple coil arrangement.  In this thread we have no idea who the real information or the real disinformation is coming from.  These coils are so easy a child could build - so try them!

Electrostatic cooling ... wow.  I know Tinu made me out to be a bit of a fool, and that's fair enough.  I don't suppose to know everything there is to be known about water and how it works.  So whatever the right terminology - I am convinced the best energy source is in that low temperature liberation of whatever the hell it's going to be called once mainstream science starts to acknowledge it's existence...
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: wavez on July 10, 2008, 10:41:46 AM
My experiments are going pretty good here. I am using the updated circuit that Luc has posted.
(this one: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5024.0;attach=24621;image)

Thanks for posting this simple, easy to understand diagram Luc.

These are the spark plugs I am using:
http://www.amazon.com/E3-Spark-Plugs-Engine-Garden/dp/B000BPOI8O

My multi-meter showed that they have little to no resistance, so there is no need to modify these. For people who are looking to buy plugs, my advice is this: Use either lawn mower or racing plugs. Neither one should have resistance, but check for resistance and exchange the plug until you have one that has no resistance. Luc, if you could mention this in the first post it might save some people some $ on plugs :). Also, try to find plugs that have more surface area like a firestorm plug. The E3 plug has a little C shape at the end of its cathode, so maybe this helps...

Today I increased the gap size and that made a big difference. I think the plug was originally around 10 thousandths, but once I moved it up to 80, then we were really seeing some nice sparks. 80 thousandths is a BIG gap size for a plug. My plug is clearly not designed with that kind of spacing in mind.

I've been thinking about how a water explosion could be possible... I don't know if we want to delve into much theory in this thread or not. I think it should be pointed out though, that gasoline (or hydrogen) explodes because of a chain reaction. I don't see how this could happen with water, but maybe the pressure from the piston makes the explosion possible. I assume all this and more has been discussed in the s1r replication group which I have not been a part of :(. Maybe the process is like the japanese van that jymboche linked to. The area around the plug would turn to plasma and explode, while the rest expands from the heat.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: callanan on July 10, 2008, 11:13:08 AM
Ben - maybe you should get prepared to eat that nail ...

As I understand it - what is required (after the initial HV low current spark) is a lower voltage high current discharge.  We don't actually know what voltage is needed for this secondary discharge - people are blowing up inverters because inverters are available off the shelf - but we haven't proved we need the voltage to be that high.  Some, including myself, have speculated about connected the 12V directly to the spark plug for the high current discharge.  (Remember - Graneau have given good science that it is Amps that blows the water apart - so at this stage in the process, unnessary voltage multiplication at the expense of current is counter-productive).

So very likely, a rudimentary coil of few turns is exactly what we need ... perhaps he is using multiple discharges at lower and lower volts (with higher and higher current) ...

Don't sneeze at this simple coil arrangement.  In this thread we have no idea who the real information or the real disinformation is coming from.  These coils are so easy a child could build - so try them!

Electrostatic cooling ... wow.  I know Tinu made me out to be a bit of a fool, and that's fair enough.  I don't suppose to know everything there is to be known about water and how it works.  So whatever the right terminology - I am convinced the best energy source is in that low temperature liberation of whatever the hell it's going to be called once mainstream science starts to acknowledge it's existence...

Hi greendoor,

A 12V battery is lower voltage but why do you assume it can provide a higher current than a capacitor? If you think that this the case then you are mistaken. Although only for a very short period, a capacitor can easily discharge energy with currents in the thousands of amps. A battery's only advantage here is that it can deliver a high current for a long period of time. But this is of no advantage in this process and has quite the opposite effect of wasting energy. In fact, to do what you are suggesting, simply take any of the previous inverter circuits described in this thread and replace the inverter and capacitor with 2 or 3 12 volts batteries in series. Now reduce the spark plug gap  as small as possible without touching. The circuit will now work and the batteries' current will flow through the arc but it will continue to arc continuously like an arc welder until the batteries' voltage drops. The spark plug gap ends will glow red and if you spray water on this arc there will be no explosion. So energy will be wasted in such a process and you will get very little, if any, water to explode.

Regards,

Ossie
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: qiman on July 10, 2008, 11:40:18 AM
I would like to point out one simple fact:

I can make this effect with a variac or inverter DISCONNECTED/ISOLATED (both terminals isolated) from the capacitor so this rules out 100% for a fact that I am getting any extra high current surge from the power supply.

Some want to believe it can come from a capacitor...(once it is discharged).

What S1R shows with some inverter touching the plug off and on through a relay and then ignition coil off/on...whatever he is showing is NOT the same method as Luc has found. So some are automatically thinking that there is some surge from the power supply to make this spark based on Luc's circuit because of some crossed idea that it is supposed to be the same thing?

Also, has anyone bothered to scope the function of the diode?

I see something that seems to almost be deliberately IGNORED here. My power supply is 100% separated from the capacitor on BOTH terminals when the capacitor is discharged into the spark plug. That means 100% as an undeniable FACT, there is no current surge from my variac or inverter going to the coil when the HV pulse leaves the ignition coil.

So that leaves the capacitor as the only thing connected to the circuit as far as input. Once the capacitor is discharged, there isn't enough to provide any current surge! With a 3uf capacitor, that is 0.0384 joules of work possible (with no losses) if it is charged to 160volts. That is LESS THAN 0.04 watt seconds worth of energy...and if using a 3uf cap, once it is discharged and claiming that there is some current surge from the cap..again AFTER it is discharged will have some current surge that assists this spark...even with a 47uf cap at 160v, that is 0.6 watt seconds or 0.6 joules...and AFTER discharge there is enough for some mysterious current surge??? LOL Well, again...is this DISINFORMATION...there might be enough energy left in the cap AFTER discharge to may raise 1 hair on a flea's leg, but to assist in some robust spark on a plug like we're witnessing???

1. Why do I get the effect without any power supply connected to my cap?
2. AFTER the cap is discharged, why do I get the effect still and do you honestly think there is enough in the cap to give some current surge to cause this effect?
3. HOW DOES A DIODE WORK?
4. Think about VOLTAGE POTENTIAL..........where there is any kind of voltage...that potential is available EVERYWHERE instantaneously wherever it it is in contact with some kind of conductivity as long as it is not blocked. When the arc is happening, the HV potential is available at the exit of the HV diode...what does that tell you?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: mr.uu on July 10, 2008, 11:44:20 AM
Hello all!

Only reading this forum for years, finally my first writing!  :o

Probably a bit offtopic, so sorry for that first...but:
Did we finally (re-)discover the "holy grail" of electronics here?
Powering a single "device" with two powersources. From one drawn high voltage, low current- from the other low voltage, high current.
Here joining them together just before the airgap (sparkplug).

What if you join them together just before a coil? Or an ordinary light-bulb?
How would then the effective power accumulate (From voltage x current (U*I) as Ohm?s Law says)?
If we draw from the hv-source 10 watts (100volts*0.1amps), and also 10 watts from the lv-source (0.1volts*100amps), would the effective combined power on the lightbulb be 20 watts or 10000watts?
Could this somebody try to verify? With an ordinary lightbulb?
Is there even a possibility to "create" such small voltage x huge amperage powersource?

Or is this all garbage? If so, then sorry for that...

Another thing regarding this circuit:

I am certain, that a circuit utilising resonance (between coil and capacitor) would undoubtly need less amount of energy than not in resonance.
Anybody considered that yet? Is it even possible to utilize in this circuit?
Of course this would mean fixed RPM within an ICE, but it maybe a possility in an ICE/generator setup with fixed RPM...


All the best to all of you guys, especially the few who do actually build and test things!





 

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: greendoor on July 10, 2008, 11:49:05 AM
Thanks Ossie ... I was just speculating, because I know a battery can deliver huge peak current (e.g. starter motor).  A lead-acid battery is kinda like a large capacitor ... The problem you describe would seem to be solvable with switching??  I'm just thinking that any inverter or coil arrangement for voltage multiplication (or division??) might be a waste of power, if the Ampere force is the operating force.

Anyhoo - a random quote I just pulled from googling around ... I find it very enlightening:

Quote
To understand the effect you have to first realize that heat is space 'wiggling' in place. Then you also have to realize that an electric discharge is basically space realigning itself. So, a violent "moving" of space that allows the heat to instantly redistribute. Just like thunderbolts cool down...

Is he right?  I suspect yes ...
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: greendoor on July 10, 2008, 11:57:47 AM
I would like to point out one simple fact:

I can make this effect with a variac or inverter DISCONNECTED/ISOLATED (both terminals isolated) from the capacitor so this rules out 100% for a fact that I am getting any extra high current surge from the power supply.

Some want to believe it can come from a capacitor...(once it is discharged).

What S1R shows with some inverter touching the plug off and on through a relay and then ignition coil off/on...whatever he is showing is NOT the same method as Luc has found. So some are automatically thinking that there is some surge from the power supply to make this spark based on Luc's circuit because of some crossed idea that it is supposed to be the same thing?

Also, has anyone bothered to scope the function of the diode?

I see something that seems to almost be deliberately IGNORED here. My power supply is 100% separated from the capacitor on BOTH terminals when the capacitor is discharged into the spark plug. That means 100% as an undeniable FACT, there is no current surge from my variac or inverter going to the coil when the HV pulse leaves the ignition coil.

So that leaves the capacitor as the only thing connected to the circuit as far as input. Once the capacitor is discharged, there isn't enough to provide any current surge! With a 3uf capacitor, that is 0.0384 joules of work possible (with no losses) if it is charged to 160volts. That is LESS THAN 0.04 watt seconds worth of energy...and if using a 3uf cap, once it is discharged and claiming that there is some current surge from the cap..again AFTER it is discharged will have some current surge that assists this spark...even with a 47uf cap at 160v, that is 0.6 watt seconds or 0.6 joules...and AFTER discharge there is enough for some mysterious current surge??? LOL Well, again...is this DISINFORMATION...there might be enough energy left in the cap AFTER discharge to may raise 1 hair on a flea's leg, but to assist in some robust spark on a plug like we're witnessing???

1. Why do I get the effect without any power supply connected to my cap?
2. AFTER the cap is discharged, why do I get the effect still and do you honestly think there is enough in the cap to give some current surge to cause this effect?
3. HOW DOES A DIODE WORK?
4. Think about VOLTAGE POTENTIAL..........where there is any kind of voltage...that potential is available EVERYWHERE instantaneously wherever it it is in contact with some kind of conductivity as long as it is not blocked. When the arc is happening, the HV potential is available at the exit of the HV diode...what does that tell you?
Qiman - seriously thank you.  I have been quoting the Graneau paper as being the source that states (with apparant authority) that it is the Ampere force that is involved.  Maybe Graneau contains disinformation?  I don't anyone at this stage - and the fact this paper is freely available makes it suspect (even though it seems to be waving abundant free energy under our noses).

I am looking into the Electrostatic Cooling effect - and so far Voltage seems to be the key effect, not Amps so much.  So maybe I am the blind trying to lead the blind (almost certainly).
My apologies.  The one thing I am certain of, and have stated many times, is that we need to find both the minimum voltage required, and the minimum current required - in order to reduce total Power input, to maximise total Power available. 

I hope to build some devices very soon and report findings.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: qiman on July 10, 2008, 12:38:20 PM
Greendoor,

The input of the diode is touching the low voltage +. The output of the diode is touching the HV+. Anytime the voltage on the output side of a diode is HIGHER than the input, the DIODE REMAINS CLOSED.

When is there less voltage potential on the diode's output than the input side? When does the voltage drop below the input side? When the cap is discharged, think about how how much is left and what that diode is.

When does the other side of the diode drop BELOW the input side of the diode in order to open that diode?

Until then....the diode remains closed.

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: qiman on July 10, 2008, 12:43:22 PM
Also, please note that not one ampre has been measured in the history of mankind.

Meters have never measured one single amp.

The meter measures VOLTAGE through a known resistance and that tells you how many "amps" is there...still NO AMPERAGE HAS EVER BEEN MEASURED DIRECTLY....the meters measure nothing but VOLTAGE through different circumstances.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: greendoor on July 10, 2008, 01:06:31 PM
Hello all!

Only reading this forum for years, finally my first writing!  :o

Probably a bit offtopic, so sorry for that first...but:
Did we finally (re-)discover the "holy grail" of electronics here?
Powering a single "device" with two powersources. From one drawn high voltage, low current- from the other low voltage, high current.
Here joining them together just before the airgap (sparkplug).

What if you join them together just before a coil? Or an ordinary light-bulb?
How would then the effective power accumulate (From voltage x current (U*I) as Ohm?s Law says)?
If we draw from the hv-source 10 watts (100volts*0.1amps), and also 10 watts from the lv-source (0.1volts*100amps), would the effective combined power on the lightbulb be 20 watts or 10000watts?
Could this somebody try to verify? With an ordinary lightbulb?
Is there even a possibility to "create" such small voltage x huge amperage powersource?

Or is this all garbage? If so, then sorry for that...

Another thing regarding this circuit:

I am certain, that a circuit utilising resonance (between coil and capacitor) would undoubtly need less amount of energy than not in resonance.
Anybody considered that yet? Is it even possible to utilize in this circuit?
Of course this would mean fixed RPM within an ICE, but it maybe a possility in an ICE/generator setup with fixed RPM...


All the best to all of you guys, especially the few who do actually build and test things!


I'm not sure what you've been reading here - but your conclusions are nothing like what i've learned here ...

As far as i'm concerned, there is no secret power in the spark.  Most people here seem to be using the brute force approach - maxium volts, maximum amps - large power input, for hopefully enough power output to drive a piston down a cylinder ...

The power i'm interested in is in the water.  And it would appear to be in the molecular bonds holding water together in a liquid state.  By atomising the water with a spark - the water suddenly has less molecular bond energy - and because energy is neither created nor destroyed - the energy that was previously holding the molecules together is transformed into violent kinetic energy.  And apparantly the temperature drops too - which I don't understand yet.  Heat is kinetic energy - but obviously there are different forms of kinetic energy.  For example - it's possible to freeze something (reducing heat energy) and accelerate it (increasing kinetic energy) at the same time - so different effects are obviously at work here. 

The subject of electrostatic cooling seems to be linked here.  If objects can be suddenly cooled with the application of high voltage with minimal current - it would appear that massive overunity heat engines should be possible.  I'm thinking this water arc effect is ultimately a heat engine.  But I could be barking mad.

I'm just looking for the best strategy to build a device to test these wild theories ...
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: greendoor on July 10, 2008, 01:20:57 PM
Also, please note that not one ampre has been measured in the history of mankind.

Meters have never measured one single amp.

The meter measures VOLTAGE through a known resistance and that tells you how many "amps" is there...still NO AMPERAGE HAS EVER BEEN MEASURED DIRECTLY....the meters measure nothing but VOLTAGE through different circumstances.
Thank you again!  Light bulbs going on .. you are so right ... the maths of Power  = Volts * Current is fairly solid though ... so I don't know how much this changes anything. 

I have huge holes in my knowledge about electricity.  I always equate it back to fluid flow, which I understand a little better.  Volts = Pressure, Current = Flow.  Together, they equal Power.  The maths sort of works - but there are things about electricity that don't stack up to this simple understanding.  For example, electron drift is much slower than current flow - so if it isn't electron flow, what is it??  Are amps real?  Can they be faked, without requiring electron flow?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: greendoor on July 10, 2008, 01:28:20 PM
Quote
There are three conventional ways to transfer heat: Conduction, Convection, and Radiation. Now there is a fourth way, Electrostatic Cooling (ESC), that has been discovered and patented by Oscar C. Blomgren (Sr. & Jr.) and others. Negative ion probes are placed near a heated object, which is grounded. When high voltage is applied, there is a dramatic drop in temperature. This extremely simple system reduces or eliminates the need for other methods, and it uses very low power and is very efficient. It also facilitates heating when applied in reverse!

This has to be a factor in water spark effects.  Obviously polarity is hugely important.  I intend to experiment with all options.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Shiver on July 10, 2008, 01:48:16 PM
Thank you again!  Light bulbs going on .. you are so right ... the maths of Power  = Volts * Current is fairly solid though ... so I don't know how much this changes anything. 

That depends if you trust Ampere's law as being the *complete* and factual explanation, or just something that can't be disproved by tools that can (or can't) measure it.  The link somewhere else in one of these threads for "Note_on_Electrodynamics.pdf" would suggest there are errors made that have held us back for many decades, which itself would be a brilliant use of disinformation, because everyone believes Ampere's law because they know it's "fact" as they would say.   Me I don't know, I'm still trying to assimilate it all.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: troyd1 on July 10, 2008, 03:32:13 PM
Testing idea: remove the tab at the bottom of the spark plug and put 2 with the electrodes facing each other. As you space them, you should get a larger spark. Maybe the engine needs 2 plugs using only the electrodes to complete the circuit. I just thought of mounting 2 plugs facing each other as described and finding the the most effective gap and then try putting a little soap in some water, dipping a bubble blowing ring, putting it in the spark gap and see what will happen. I know this is out there, but with no ability to do any testing at the moment, thought I would throw it out there in case someone saw some merit in this.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: tinu on July 10, 2008, 04:01:01 PM
I know Tinu made me out to be a bit of a fool, and that's fair enough.  I don't suppose to know everything there is to be known about water and how it works.  So whatever the right terminology - I am convinced the best energy source is in that low temperature liberation of whatever the hell it's going to be called once mainstream science starts to acknowledge it's existence...

That was not my intention and I apologize for that!
All I want is a clean and coherent discussion; otherwise the whole thread will quickly go down the drain.
Best regards,
Tinu
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on July 10, 2008, 04:11:10 PM
@ninjadaniel : I highly recommend the voltage doubler!  ;D The voltage doubler will take the place of the bridge.

@whopper1967 : On a magneto you can not change the polarity of the spark, so you need to make a pickup coil and use it to trigger a automotive coil added on to a mower motor. But in a car, just swap the plus for the minus on the coil, that will change the polarity.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: gotoluc on July 10, 2008, 04:40:00 PM
I'm not sure what you've been reading here - but your conclusions are nothing like what i've learned here ...

As far as i'm concerned, there is no secret power in the spark.  Most people here seem to be using the brute force approach - maxium volts, maximum amps - large power input, for hopefully enough power output to drive a piston down a cylinder ...

The power i'm interested in is in the water.  And it would appear to be in the molecular bonds holding water together in a liquid state.  By atomising the water with a spark - the water suddenly has less molecular bond energy - and because energy is neither created nor destroyed - the energy that was previously holding the molecules together is transformed into violent kinetic energy.  And apparantly the temperature drops too - which I don't understand yet.  Heat is kinetic energy - but obviously there are different forms of kinetic energy.  For example - it's possible to freeze something (reducing heat energy) and accelerate it (increasing kinetic energy) at the same time - so different effects are obviously at work here. 

The subject of electrostatic cooling seems to be linked here.  If objects can be suddenly cooled with the application of high voltage with minimal current - it would appear that massive overunity heat engines should be possible.  I'm thinking this water arc effect is ultimately a heat engine.  But I could be barking mad.

I'm just looking for the best strategy to build a device to test these wild theories ...


Hi greendoor, I very much agree with you! ... too much time spent on the study of the spark and not enough on the role the water plays here.

I think we may find that the spark would be very different if it was in a non humid environment,  maybe much like lightning in a dry summer night.

I agree with you that the water seems to be a very important part and should have just as much attention as the spark.

After all I did call this effect Water Power and not spark power!

Luc
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: k4zep on July 10, 2008, 04:42:20 PM
Hi Gang,

Boy we have a fiesty, honest and deep thinking group here.  In spite of BS and doubts, I am continuing working on my modified motor to test all this out.  Motor is finished, now have to mount, flywheel, electronics, timing, plumbing for water.....Lot of work even trying to get a motor to run and I'm trying to do it in a 6th floor condo and my closet shop!...

I have lots of pictures of head construction, secondary injection port, etc.  But one pic. attached here is good enough for now.

Picture below is motor with ruler and oh yes, a nail ready to eat............

Ben

Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: bumfuzzled on July 10, 2008, 05:12:07 PM


Hi bumfuzzled,

Aren't you making an assumption that it "puts out" this voltage and amperage? If it were so, wouldn't it be putting out 90 kilowatts? This is enough power for 9 or 10 houses if it was continuous. I think you will find that it uses a pulsed current of 2 amps for a 12 volt system and will put out 45,000 volts but at very little current. At 100% efficiency it will only put out 533uAmps (micoamps) at 45,000 volts. A microamp is one millionth of an amp...

Regards,

Ossie


It doesn't say it DRAWS 2 amps, it says it PRODUCES a 2 amp spark at 45,000v in the catalog. I'm not saying it will and I don't have the $166.30 to buy it and try it but MSD has been one of the top ignition companies in racing for years, I don't see them putting out BS for no reason. i understand the power output calculation but this is for a few microseconds not continuous.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: tinu on July 10, 2008, 06:36:37 PM
@ all,
http://www.kettering.edu/~drussell/Demos/doppler/mach1.html
?Not only were the water vapor, density and temperature just right??
Please comment.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: poynt99 on July 10, 2008, 06:37:32 PM
Greendoor,

The input of the diode is touching the low voltage +. The output of the diode is touching the HV+. Anytime the voltage on the output side of a diode is HIGHER than the input, the DIODE REMAINS CLOSED.

When is there less voltage potential on the diode's output than the input side? When does the voltage drop below the input side? When the cap is discharged, think about how how much is left and what that diode is.

When does the other side of the diode drop BELOW the input side of the diode in order to open that diode?

Until then....the diode remains closed.



qiman, let me see if i know what you're getting at:

it's simple, the high current from the diode side does not come into play until the reverse inductive spike from the coil secondary occurs, which is NEGATIVE relative to the diode output. this then will allow the diode to forward bias and fully discharge the cap.

;)
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: whopper1967 on July 10, 2008, 08:00:19 PM
@xbox hacker
Which would be why capacitor70 circuit looks as it does,so if I was to use your circuit with an automotive coil,then the grounding issue will not be a problem,correct?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on July 10, 2008, 08:20:46 PM
@xbox hacker
Which would be why capacitor70 circuit looks as it does,so if I was to use your circuit with an automotive coil,then the grounding issue will not be a problem,correct?

Do you want to start with a mower or a car?
With a mower you need to lose the magneto(if you have -VE), and replace it with a pickup like cap70, then use a automotive ignition coil with + to + and pulse the - from the pick up...you should get +VE  :D

Car...just make sure the coil has the + on the + and you should be good to go.

I will be putting the pickup setup on my motor this weekend (or sooner  ;)) But ofcourse that will change the timeing, so that might take a bit to get it right.

Yes...then no problems... ;D
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hydrocontrol on July 10, 2008, 08:58:35 PM
Do you want to start with a mower or a car?
With a mower you need to lose the magneto(if you have -VE), and replace it with a pickup like cap70, then use a automotive ignition coil with + to + and pulse the - from the pick up...you should get +VE  :D

Car...just make sure the coil has the + on the + and you should be good to go.

I will be putting the pickup setup on my motor this weekend (or sooner  ;)) But ofcourse that will change the timeing, so that might take a bit to get it right.

Yes...then no problems... ;D

Car.. ??? Depends on what type of car engine. Newer computerized car.. Very doubtful. Older car with points, condenser and adjustable timing. Possible... Which is more valuable to you that could be ruined experimenting.  ???  Mower/generator engine.. Couple hundred $$.. Car.. couple of thousand $$ and lack of transportation... I do like Ben's approach. Small hobby engine. Very simple and elegant. If it fails he can still drive and he can still mow the lawn  ;) Of course he lives in a condo so I suspect lawn mowing is taken care of by someone else.  ;D
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hydrocontrol on July 10, 2008, 09:04:12 PM
Hi Gang,

Boy we have a fiesty, honest and deep thinking group here.  In spite of BS and doubts, I am continuing working on my modified motor to test all this out.  Motor is finished, now have to mount, flywheel, electronics, timing, plumbing for water.....Lot of work even trying to get a motor to run and I'm trying to do it in a 6th floor condo and my closet shop!...

I have lots of pictures of head construction, secondary injection port, etc.  But one pic. attached here is good enough for now.
Ben

Geezz  Ben. I think you could just run that size engine with that size plug on the humidity of your breath.  ;D  Could you not find a bigger plug.  ::)  If this works that means the plug I will have to get my Briggs engine to run on will be the size of a 20oz coke bottle  :D




Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: goldenequity on July 10, 2008, 09:21:09 PM
Do you want to start with a mower or a car?
With a mower you need to lose the magneto(if you have -VE), and replace it with a pickup like cap70, then use a automotive ignition coil with + to + and pulse the - from the pick up...you should get +VE  :D

Car...just make sure the coil has the + on the + and you should be good to go.

I will be putting the pickup setup on my motor this weekend (or sooner  ;)) But ofcourse that will change the timeing, so that might take a bit to get it right.

Yes...then no problems... ;D

@ xbox hacker
Just remember:
Even if you put a pick-up on the magneto to trigger an automotive ignition coil;
OR you put points on the output shaft to trigger the automotive coil,
you ARE going to STILL be producing a "waste spark"....
and by changing the timing anywhere past TDC, you are going to be placing that "waste spark" into the Intake Stroke.  :o
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on July 10, 2008, 09:29:05 PM
@hydrocontrol: You can pick up an old car on craigslist for under $200 ..LOL And as for the mower motor, harbor freight  has one that is BRAND NEW 5HP vertical shaft for $99, just the other day (intown store) PULL START  :P

Then you can place it on a cinder block and hold it with your hands while someone starts it...
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

@goldenequity: I had thought about that, but i just want to get it to "pickup" first...lol Also i was think about a post i saw sometime ago, about useing the piston top as the ground point...gonna try that too  ;D
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: fritz on July 10, 2008, 09:34:52 PM
Also, please note that not one ampre has been measured in the history of mankind.

Meters have never measured one single amp.

The meter measures VOLTAGE through a known resistance and that tells you how many "amps" is there...still NO AMPERAGE HAS EVER BEEN MEASURED DIRECTLY....the meters measure nothing but VOLTAGE through different circumstances.
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
An analogue instrument with moving iron measures induction caused by current in a stationary coil against the force of a spring.
A moving coil instrument measures the magnetic field caused from a current against the force of a spring.
Even a slope or dual slope A/D converter buffers the input voltage and measures the time it takes the buffered voltage (converted to current source by a resistor) charges a cap to a given voltage.
A successive approximation or flash ADC  compares voltages - but thats of no meaning.
(OK, seems we are using voltage comparators in modern equippement - but the same can be achieved with current comparators - if you build your own ones)

There is some tendency in EE to build "voltage" driven systems due to the fact that they are easier to build or to measure. With current system - measuring means always opening a loop - in "voltage" system just tapping with a probe on a point is enough. (as long as the involved currents are very small compared to the losses caused in the conductors).


voltage vs. current is always a design flavour.

There is no direction in ohms law.

With the same proof you did I will state now that nobody ever measured a single volt.
Volt is only derived from the current which is caused by conecting a voltage to a given resistor...

rgds.



Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on July 10, 2008, 09:47:13 PM
@Ben: Just curious....what about timing and ignition firing?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hydrocontrol on July 10, 2008, 10:27:02 PM
@hydrocontrol: You can pick up an old car on craigslist for under $200 ..LOL And as for the mower motor, harbor freight  has one that is BRAND NEW 5HP vertical shaft for $99, just the other day (intown store) PULL START  :P

Then you can place it on a cinder block and hold it with your hands while someone starts it...
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

@goldenequity: I had thought about that, but i just want to get it to "pickup" first...lol Also i was think about a post i saw sometime ago, about useing the piston top as the ground point...gonna try that too  ;D

 :D :D :D I have seen those $200 cars.. I might as well put wheels on a coffin.  :D :D :D :D Besides which ones is easier to get rid of after experimenting.. A dead car is a rather large yard attraction. ;D
Pull start engine for experimenting.. naw.. That is why I got an electric start Briggs. It did cost a bit more than $99 but it is a bit smaller to hide from the wife if things fail..  ;D ;D Now to figure out how to get only one spark. My Briggs has both a vertical and a horizontal output side shaft. The horizontal shaft is used for self propelled things like mowers and snow blowers. I will have to see if the horizontal shaft has some relation to the vertical shaft. Like 2-1 or 4-1. I might be able to use that shaft for timing. If I could only be so lucky.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: xbox hacker on July 10, 2008, 10:41:27 PM
Quote
Pull start engine for experimenting.. naw..

just use a drill with a socket on it on the flywheel....lol
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Yucca on July 10, 2008, 11:25:24 PM
A video that looks very much like Graneu experiment:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5O27hq1NC_U
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: Unicron on July 11, 2008, 12:58:05 AM
@hydrocontrol

Can't you use some sort of small induction/pickup coil on the original sparkplug cable to trigger the spark?
or are you removing the original ignition system from the motor for less dragg?
(i know there are some tachometers that work like that)


or wil this also lead to a ghost spark?
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: winner on July 11, 2008, 01:23:05 AM
A video that looks very much like Graneu experiment:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5O27hq1NC_U

Yucca, WOW! Yeah, I've heard stories of experimenters shooting holes through their ceilings with water blasts like this. Gotta be careful, you can poke your eye out, kid! And, everyone, welcome to the Age of Aquarius!  ;D
 
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: hydrocontrol on July 11, 2008, 01:23:10 AM
@hydrocontrol

Can't you use some sort of small induction coil on the original sparkplug cable to trigger the spark?
or are you removing the original ignition system from the motor for less dragg?

or wil this also lead to a ghost spark?

I was confused before. I dug out my engine and it is a electric start Tecumseh 6hp (not Briggs) with a side PTO that appears to be 4:1. That would mean that all I would have to do is add a wheel to the PTO that has two magnets on it to trigger an external plasma ignition setup. This way I can get rid of the ghost spark and still adjust the timing. This may work.
Title: Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
Post by: geovel56 on July 11, 2008, 02:26:05 AM
Hi Everyone,

This is both ON TOPIC and sort of OFF TOPIC

ON TOPIC:  We need to continue our present direction in designing, improving and applying the plasma spark to water to release the energy in it necessary to drive a piston down in an internal combustion engine, AS WELL AS THE MULTITUDE OF OTHER APPLICATIONS to which this technology can be applied.  We are definitely on to something here with LUC, Ossie, qiman, capacitor70, XBox, myself and others actually doing experiments and coming up with real results.

Since Luc started this thread, many positive results and forward direction has occurred.  I will be doing more of my own tests this weekend on testing a variation of the plasma circuits in here already and will post all results.  We are definitely on the right course of action because all of a sudden, S1R is coming out of the woodwork again, I believe to still attempt to lay claim to this idea, even though it was actually done in the 1950's by Adam Crawford in Scotland!

I truly believe S1R found something about Adam Crawford and then created a forum 3 years ago so the likes of us can actually figure it out for him.

Slightly OFF TOPIC:
I am not calling anyone a LIAR, but a few things don't add up.  S1R's write up description and posts on the Yahoo Waterfuel forum said the main coil was uninsulated BARE COPPER WIRE, and two coils using stranded insulated wire. 

I am degreed in Physics, but not an electronics guru by any stretch of the imagination, but even my 6th grade science teacher showed this in his electricity experiment, that electricity follows the path of least resistance.  Whether it is a straight piece of wire or coiled up a billion times, isn't BARE WIRE essentially a DEAD SHORT between windings, and therefore no different than a straight piece of wire (not counting the resistance per foot of copper)?  That was a rhetorical statement... LOL

Then today, S1R posted on the Yahoo Waterfuel forum, "the main coil has black tape on it, as well as "the other black coil."  The original statement, however said the other 2 coils were insulated stranded wire.  Looking at SIR's own picture very closely, shows the black coils are NOT black tape covering BARE WIRES ( I still can't get over the bare wire thing... LOL), but looks like standard factory insulated wire. 

OK, pick a story and go with it, S1R!

Then a nail just thrown in the air space of the coil as opposed to the wire being wound tightly around the nail, also would be a dead short across the bare wire windings as it simply laid on top of the bare wire windings.  Certainly one of those conditions would cause a dead short!

Years ago, I had a bad ignition coil on my car.  The primary showed 1 Ohm resistance which was OK and within the manufacturer's specifications.  The secondary coil however measured only 4K Ohms, but should have been on the order of 10K to 12K ohms, far below manufacturer's specifications.  That meant a some of the secondary windings burned (melted) and created a short between the windings resulting in greatly reduced resistance.

Then we have the best statement of all:  The coils slowed down the electricity enough so that the timing on the Briggs and Straton engine (funny how Briggs and Straton abbreviated is BS) did not have to be changed.

Again, I am not an electronics guru, but doesn't electricity travel at the same speed, regardless as to what it is traveling through?  I do know there are timer/delay circuits one can design and create, but isn't that simply using components that allow for charge/discharge times and other components that vary the time of delivery of the electricity, but doesn't change the actual speed of electricity itself? Sorry, rhetorical again!  LOL

Regardless, these three coils certainly cannot "slow down" the speed of electricity to that