.

That is right.
 We must test, how big the overunity factor is, otherwise if the process is not overunity
it makes more sense to use an electric motor to drive a car.

Stefan

I don't  agree

The  question is not if it is over unity ..........the question is if we can get it  to work .

I  think it  has  been  shown that  an engine  can  will kick  over   running  on only water 
There is  little  evidence so far that   the  engine can be  controled  like  a convention ICE

As I see it  worst case ....... we   develop  a system to run an engine  steady state  ....
With this  we could   drive a generator   for power in  our homes  or   possibly  use it  in a hybrid car . 

It doesn't  matter how much water it takes to run .
It  doesn't  really matter  how efficient  it is .   .........if it runs it is a GIANT  step in the right  direction .
Efficiency  will  come in time .

gary

Edit

I can see that some will  say that   the  efficiency  of the basic process is  what is important  and   needs to be measured .
If we measure it now we only learn  how efficient it is at our CURRENT level of understanding  . 
A change  in  voltage,   current,  frequency .........maybe even  geometry  can all affect  the  overall  efficiency 



gary

@GotolucLOL, You must have read my mind, I was about to post an easier way to acheive the desired effects----Tesla style. I built your original circuit last night and Qiman's, and it works very well but there are issues. Now consider what is happening in this circuit, an inverter raises a 12v batteries potential to 120v(losses) and is rectified to DC(losses) then charges a capacitor.This capacitor is discharged through the primary of an ignition coil ------ but what happens next? Qiman gave part of the answer The moment the potential from the capacitor reaches the primary of the coil a larger potential is induced in the secondary HV coil. All of you see a spark across the gap but that is only the beginning, Qiman said this is all about "potential" and he is correct. The very moment the HV jumps the arc gap a higher potential appears at both the (-)negative terminal of the primary having an inductance or opposition to current flow and the negative side of the capacitor As such an oscillitory series circuit is formed, the HV appearing behind the capacitor forces another impulse through the capacitor and primary thus the secondary raising potential incrementally. This "appears" to be a single arc across the gap only because the frequency of oscillation is extremely high as such the "qualities" of the arc discharge have changed from what we know. The variables we need be concerned with are potential and frequency of oscillation(wave period)---- this is not "alternating" current it is HV impulsive DC, the flow never reverses but does oscillate within itself, each oscillation raising the potential. You could call it unidirectional RF in which the radiative properties have been expanded. The oscillations produce resonant vibrations within the media and the potential difference tears it apart.
If you want to lose both the inverter and the rectifier to reduce resistance losses you need look no further than Tesla Patent 568177 Ozone generator, an economical and efficient means to charge a capacitor to high potential, the Primary/Secondary is your ignition coil.
Best Regards

Hi allcanadian, thank you for answering my call

AT EVERYONE In case some of you do not know user allcanadian... he is very very knowledgeable of Tesla's circuits and is a great asset for us to have here with us. I ask you all to be respectful towards his advice and to do the tests that he will recommend since they will help us all to understand what this circuit does. You cannot get these teachings even in the best of Universities, so pay attention and do the tests before you ask or comment anything.

@allcanadian, the floor is yours. ...Let me know if there is anything I can do that could help you with the moderator privileges I have since I don't know much about what I can all do with it

Luc

I`m just an armchair reader here, it seems to me rather than trying to get this to work with a normal ICE, which can difficult to adjust, some sort of simple piston arrangement, that would be easy to construct out of readily available parts  (maybe made of transparent materials?) would be better, so that the pressure wave could be measured and adjustments made to maximize it.

A flywheel or spring for the return stroke could be added later.

Hi Lakes, thanks for the excellent suggestion.

I know I can get Lexan in a tube and I think also in rod. We can turn a few groves in the rod and use rubber O rings and a little oil and we have a clear Lexan combustion chamber. We can have it vertical with the spark plug at bottom and add metal weights on top of the rod or a spring so it can compress and see what is going on under pressure. I would also like to test it under vacuum.

What do you all think of this idea? please input if you have a better setup idea or anything that would be useful to know.

Thanks again Lakes.

Luc

I don't understand why this MISINFORMATION about current following up the HV jump keeps popping up! lol I explained ACCURATELY what is happening here and nobody has it right.
Watch tihs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l54wlbi0Szk
Watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8OnvanMi-g

The 2nd vid is an ISOLATED capacitor to PROVE there is NO current from an inverter than can possibly jump a gap when it is ISOLATED FROM THE CIRCUIT. These ideas I see are throwing people down the wrong track of what is happening and unless people are using the correct model, it will negatively influence how you approach your enhancements to what you are doing to make it better.

Hi quiman,

Please see my previous posts as follows:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.msg108614.html#msg108614
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.msg108838.html#msg108838
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.msg109072.html#msg109072

These circuits simply allow the low voltage high current from the charged capacitor to discharge through the ionised air that the HV spark creates. The LV cannot ionised the air because the voltage is too low. When air is ionised, it's resistance is lowered dramatically allowing the LV and current from the capacitor to discharge through it.

This is completely analogous to what occurs in a xenon flash tube. The 300 or so volts sitting across the xenon tube is not enough to ionise the xenon gas and discharge the capacitor current via the tube. But when a HV trigger pulse is generated from a trigger transformer and directed to the gas in the tube, the xenon gas ionises and as such it's resistance drops allowing the 300V capacitor energy to flow through it which results in a bright flash from the tube. This is exactly what we are doing here with these circuits  but instead, the air is our xenon gas and an ignition coil is our trigger transformer.

As far as the water explosions are concerned, what is new here is how such a simple, and now, well understood circuit can create such a plasma discharge in air so easily that it causes liquid water to explode when it comes into contact with the plasma discharge.

Regards,

Ossie

@geovel56
Does it matter if this is overunity or COP>1?
YES, it has to be, if it isn't, then using an electric motor would be better.
If it is, let's say only 40% efficient, you need many batteries for not so many miles.

Alan,
OK, then take your motor out of your car and put an electric motor in, or continue with this shortsided banter and keep paying $4.35 per gallon (and on the rise) for gasoline.

@geo,

There must be more to it than that. Your saying that the only energy being input is that from the spark. In turn the energy in the spark can only come from one place: the electrical supply (whether battery or mains). If thats your hypothesis, then there are FAR more efficient ways to turn electrical energy into rotational mechanical energy: for example a simple electric motor. So, physics-degreed though you may be, I think your mistaking the principle upon which this machine is operating.

-Mike

Mike,
Yes there is much more to it than that.  I was just trying to keep it in a simple conceptual form as to what happens in the Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) running on water with a plasma arc as opposed to gasoline with an ordinary ignition coil spark, but again... It Doesn't Matter. 

I certainly am NOT mistaken about how an ICE uses gasoline or diesel to make it run.  This thread was created by Luc to get us all to work together to come up with a low energy input circuit to yield a strong plasma arc.  From there,  we can use water instead of gasoline or diesel. 

So far, once the strong plasma arc has been applied inside an engine, others that have already been successful have noted the timing had to be retarded by as much as 35 degrees, the air/fuel mixture had to be richer (more water) than with gasoline, the carb jets have to be bigger than they are when running on gasoline (to allow more water in), and the overall power from the car is reduced slightly. 

Personally, I don't care if my top speed on a gasoline run engine was 125 mph, and with water is reduced to only 90 mph.  There isn't anywhere I can drive in the USA that fast anyway without breaking the speed limit laws!  I certainly would much rather fill up my tank using a garden hose than at a gas station, especially at $4.35 per gallon (today's price near me)!

Supposedly, S1R has done this with his '78 El Camino.  He went 2 jet sizes bigger than the standard jets in a stock carb on his 350 Chevy El Camino engine.  He retarded the timing 35 degrees so it fired after top dead center, and supposedly has driven this car for 3 years now and over 30,000 miles.

He did produce a YouTube video recently, where he was running a Briggs and Straton 18 HP engine on only tap water.  Capacitor70 has successfully started (and ran for a short period of time) his motorcycle/scooter engine (kickstart) and produced a video on YouTube.  JCBX from Denmark has successfully started and ran his Volvo on tap water and produced a YouTube video, and I saw one yesterday, also from the group I belong to on Yahoo, I believe his name is Dreamyears or something like that.

The bottom line is Luc, also part of the same Yahoo group I belong to, decided after S1R posted his success on the Briggs and YouTube video, but wouldn't list his parts nor divulge his circuit, Luc came up with one himself, and started THIS THREAD.  He asked a few of us from the Yahoo group to join here in developing the most critical part of running a car on tap water only (no hydrolysis etc.) which we did join in here together for a united group effort and keeping EVERYTHING PUBLIC DOMAIN for everyone to share and reap the benefits thereof!

The most difficult part over the last 3 years in the Yahoo group was trying to get S1R to list his parts and circuit schematic.  He sort of did, but much of it was wrong and wouldn't work and really couldn't explain most of it.  Others in that group who were electronics experts, tinkerers, scientists etc, all pulled together to try and figure out what S1R supposedly did with the El Camino.

Luc was motivated by S1R's video, and the fact S1R wouldn't divulge his parts list or circuit (and still hasn't after 2 or 3 weeks now), and actually hid the circuit in a silver painted  (what looks like a plastic butter or margarine tub) and Luc intuitively figured, "he's hiding it, and it's small, so it must really be simple."  Luc then came up with his first workable circuit to create a plasma arc on a spark plug, started this thread for EVERYONE to try to work together to this end, and once accomplished, move on to making a car run on water.

That has been, and IS the purpose of this thread from its inception.  Everything else is extraneous, although good information potentially, but not what this thread is about. 

Is an ICE (internal combustion engine) overunity... No!  Is it efficient... No!  Is the COP > 1... No! and WHO CARES.  We are all driving them and spending more at the gas pumps than we EVER have historically and it's going to go higher... much higher, PLUS ICE's are polluting our planet.

A car that runs on water using an ICE will NOT be overunity, simply because of the inefficiency of an ICE... again, who cares!  A car that runs on water is 100% pollution free however, and WE ALL SHOULD CARE ABOUT THAT!

Our collective goal is to rid us ALL of our dependence on fossil fuels and use something that literally costs us nothing to obtain (rainwater, pond/lake water, etc.) or very little cost as in tap water from our garden hoses. 

That was Luc's idea for this thread, and I for one, am 100% behind it.  But the FOCUS must remain and not deviate from the first task at hand.

I hope everyone is now caught up as to what this thread is about and where we plan to go with it.  Thanks Luc for trying to provide a totally Focused group here.  Unfortunately, no thread is without the "crapsters" that talk and don't care what a given thread is about, nor do they even take the time to read though it from the beginning to find out what its about.  They just want to talk. 

It just makes it harder to stay on task, PLUS weeding through all the off topic posts makes it more difficult to actually get to the posts with breakthroughs, new developments and ways to improve what we are attempting to do here.

Regards,
Geo

@Gotoluc

Hi allcanadian, thank you for answering my call

Oh crap, you know I don't perform well under stress

@NerzhDishual

Have you also ever try to 'redraw' some of his patent figures in a
more convenient/logical/QiMan way?

Yes, I have below and in an earlier post the cap charger is the same patent 568177 minus the Pri/Sec with a diode.

If I could make a few comments I would say, I mean no offence but all this talk of engines and sparkplugs seems very premature, kind of like deciding how to cook your chicken before you have an egg. If an efficient means to produce a large scale plasma discharge is not produced we have nothing. The capacitor charging circuit in my last post is the easiest way I know of to replace the inverter/rectifier section of Gotoluc's circuit. This is a Tesla circuit yes, but this does not have to turn into another tesla thread, we have a goal to pursue. The next phase I am working on is the plasma process itself which I have already started .The question I had to ask first is what is happening here? this is not a standard HV arc as Gotoluc and Qiman have shown in there videos, it is not produced by the rectified inverter current as Qiman has shown. A known amount of energy in a capacitor has completely changed the qualities of its discharge from anything we know . These qualities have also changed the extent of interaction with matter (water vapor), I think a common goal would be to determine the exact "cause" of why the qualities of the plasma discharge have changed and what circuit properties have instigated this change. This would seem to be the most logical course of action if one is to improve both the efficiency and magnitude of the effect. In any case I will be working in that direction in the next few weeks and post the results.

So far I understand that a HV spark from the coil is seeking the source of the low voltage when present and when it hits the diodes that are placed between, it is slammed back intensifying the voltage as it seeks the closest ground.

 If I am right with what I have understood, then why cant we just install diodes between a positive lead from the battery and the spark plug and then slip the plug wire on over it?