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Author Topic: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE  (Read 1405575 times)

callanan

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #510 on: July 06, 2008, 04:23:17 AM »
That motor setup was NOT a failure, look what you learned!!!!!  Most impressive........I bet your next one WILL work....That 35 degrees AFTER TDC looks more and more like a viable setting.

Ben

Hi Ben,

Thanks. Yes there is much more to learn about applying this process to get a real combustion engine working. One thing I just remembered regarding why the initial normal ignition spark can be dampened to the point of not being able to be strong enough to discharge the capacitors in the discharge circuit. Years ago I did a great deal of high voltage discharge testing in a vacuum chamber. A HV low current spark such as that from an ignition coil is incredibly strong and can travel far greater distances in a vacuum. This is because there is no air and air can be insulative to the high voltage. So from this understanding it does make sense that we have quite the opposite effect going on in the cylinder of a cumbustion engine. It seems the pressure of compressed air will dampen the ignition spark and this can create problems for the discharge circuit being able to discharge. So once again, this analysis does back up the idea that a stronger ignition pulse will be required for this process to work in a combustion engine. This may mean that most people may have difficulties if trying to apply this process to an unmodified magneto type of ignition system.

Regards,

Ossie


greendoor

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #511 on: July 06, 2008, 04:37:25 AM »
Maybe it's best that experimenters get their electric circuit refined to the point where they can blow up plastic bottles first - that would be easier, and more encouraging than trying and failing to get a motor going.  Proof of a powerful expanding pressure would mean that the engine designs are just a design issue. 

Bumfuzzled - your ignorance on things electrical is likely to be a self-fullfilling prophesy.  You can chose to "ignore" the wealth of knowledge all around you, or you can chose to start learning.  At the very bottom if you must - but don't blame your ignorance an anything other than your own choice.

Ignition timing is going to be a big issue for most experimenters.  It might be an idea to forget the conventional ignition circuit and build a new one.  Perhaps an optical sensor that can detect a 

bumfuzzled

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #512 on: July 06, 2008, 04:39:05 AM »
Went to my dad's and found a very old Kohler 8 HP lawnmower that is battery ignition with points and a regular canister style coil. So this will be my new test mule if I can get it to run on gasoline first, it's really old. At least I can reverse the polarity on the coil on this one and see what happens.

Ossie, when you say point the diodes toward the magneto does that mean the flow of electricity should go to the magneto or be blocked from going to the magneto?? Seems like I tried that with a string of diodes but I can't remember at the moment.

bumfuzzled

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #513 on: July 06, 2008, 04:52:52 AM »


Bumfuzzled - your ignorance on things electrical is likely to be a self-fullfilling prophesy.  You can chose to "ignore" the wealth of knowledge all around you, or you can chose to start learning.  At the very bottom if you must - but don't blame your ignorance an anything other than your own choice.

 

Hey at least I'm out there trying to figure this out instead of sitting behind a keyboard criticizing people who are actually trying to get things going. If you'll read up a couple posts you'll see the man that came up with the circuit that I'm using had trouble getting it to work on an engine too at first. Are you an electronics wizard? If so did you learn it overnight? You know how long I've been learning about electronics? About a week now so unless you have something useful to say to me then please leave me out of yer posts.

goldenequity

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #514 on: July 06, 2008, 05:08:27 AM »
Some thoughts on the 4 stroke single cylinder engine:

The ignition pulse comes from the magneto.
This creates a voltage pulse with EVERY single revolution of the output shaft.
Every 2 strokes of the piston completes 1 revolution of the engine.
There are therefore 2 ignition pulses to every 4 strokes of the engine.
This creates what is called a "waste" spark. This is not a problem for a gasoline powered engine.
That is because of the "burn rate" of gasoline..... which is SLOW compared to hydrogen (10X faster!)

This slow burn rate is the REASON that the spark is set to occur before TDC.
It actually ignites the fuel/air mixture before the top of the compression stroke so it can complete the (slow) burn within the power stroke.
(It is, by the way, why gas engines are so inefficient... the premature combustion pushing against a piston that's trying to come up!)
It does this to create more TIME for the gasoline to completely combust.

Engines with points essentially run off the cam shaft which is turning at HALF the speed of the crank/output shaft.
The points are then set to spark only ONCE for every 2 revolutions of the output shaft (and 4 strokes) of the engine.

I think ultimately, we are going to want to take advantage of the extremely FAST burn rate of the hydrogen/plasma/water explosion.
We are going to want to time the spark to occur PAST TDC to get the most power and efficiency out of the engine...... when the piston is on its way DOWN on the power stroke.

Therefore, if we move our timing past TDC (by adjusting the magneto), we will find ourselves setting a 2nd spark to the INTAKE stroke.... very bad for valves.
The waste spark must be dealt with (imo).
@bumfuzzled
That old Kohler is a real find because of the points ignition setup, I don't believe you will have to deal with the waste spark and you should be able to play with the timing and set it past TDC..... nice score!




« Last Edit: July 06, 2008, 06:02:56 AM by goldenequity »

whopper1967

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #515 on: July 06, 2008, 05:08:28 AM »
i am pretty much just starting to learn electronics too,but i do have some decent mechanical skills......but anyway,if you havent seen it,this might help......      http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/         .......chapter 12....i need to study it alot more myself....btw congrats on keepin on keepin on...

livingwaters08

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #516 on: July 06, 2008, 05:10:15 AM »
Hi livingwaters08, I did not delete any posts by capacitor70 in this topic. If I did I would of mention that in the reply to you. Also please not that if I delete a post I can only delete the content! so the post would still be there just empty. Can you show me an empty post by capacitor70?

Luc

No deleting of any posts by capacitor70 have been done by me. I have no idea what it was about since I was out most of yesterday afternoon and evening and did not have access. Maybe capacitor70 removed them himself after posting?

Luc

Hi Luc,
I want to apologize profusely for my error.  The posts by capacitor70, and his circuit are on the other thread: mys1r9a9m9 replication.

In my quest to gather information I criss crossed threads.  ::)

Again, My Apologies to You, Hartiberlin, and the Group.

Found a 1 cylinder B & S engine to test some circuit layouts on.  I will post pictures and results.  Hopeully Soon.

Livingwaters08
« Last Edit: July 18, 2008, 07:27:16 AM by gotoluc »

TheOne

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #517 on: July 06, 2008, 05:54:43 AM »
I am not ready yet for the complete setup but I was playing with different mod on some spark plug.

I removed on one the resistance and just fire up the spark plug (just from a small 12v 7a battery) and was getting very little spark.

I used another plug, I was not able to remove the resistance but with the new configuration I was getting a very good spark!! even with the resistance.
Its easy to try, I removed the neg electrode and put glued a 1/4-20 hex nuts on the top here the picture. I image with the inverter circuit you should get
a very BIG spark, better then a normal plug configuration!


springfield

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #518 on: July 06, 2008, 06:34:35 AM »
@anyone
Can someone get me up to speed on the principle at work here? How does the spark extract the energy from the water?

1. When hydrogen combines with oxygen to make water (ie when it burns), energy is released which can be used to power a device, for example some kind of internal combustion engine.
2. To take water and separate its hydrogen from its oxygen, external energy must be supplied, most commonly electrical energy through electrolysis.
3. The amount of energy involved in #1 and #2 above is exactly the same for the same amount of material: in other words there's an exact give-and-take of energy when you go from hydrogen/oxygen to water and back again.

So here's what I don't get: if you start off with water as fuel I don't see how you can extract the energy from it - in fact, you have to put energy IN to separate the hydrogen from the oxygen. So if that's the case, what's the principle at work here that makes this special spark able to get energy from water? Thanks,
-Mike


bumfuzzled

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #519 on: July 06, 2008, 06:48:01 AM »
I reversed polarity on the coil on the old kohler motor and put a 100 watt bulb in series with the LV and I now have a working plasma ignition system!! I'm not getting a huge spark but it's decent. Do I need to go with a lower or higher wattage bulb to get more current flow??

As soon as the carb is done soaking I'll clean it up and see if I can't get it to run on gasoline. That will probably be monday, I rest on sunday.  ;D

Ossie, I just realized I don't have enough diodes to put in series between the magneto and plug on the other motor. That's probably why it didn't work for me earlier. I'll get some more diodes and try it on the first motor.


callanan

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #521 on: July 06, 2008, 06:54:25 AM »
@anyone
Can someone get me up to speed on the principle at work here? How does the spark extract the energy from the water?

1. When hydrogen combines with oxygen to make water (ie when it burns), energy is released which can be used to power a device, for example some kind of internal combustion engine.
2. To take water and separate its hydrogen from its oxygen, external energy must be supplied, most commonly electrical energy through electrolysis.
3. The amount of energy involved in #1 and #2 above is exactly the same for the same amount of material: in other words there's an exact give-and-take of energy when you go from hydrogen/oxygen to water and back again.

So here's what I don't get: if you start off with water as fuel I don't see how you can extract the energy from it - in fact, you have to put energy IN to separate the hydrogen from the oxygen. So if that's the case, what's the principle at work here that makes this special spark able to get energy from water? Thanks,
-Mike

Hi Mike,

Please see this post:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.msg109420.html#msg109420

Regards,

Ossie

wavez

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #522 on: July 06, 2008, 07:28:00 AM »
[edit] deleted [/edit]

kiwijs

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #523 on: July 06, 2008, 07:59:17 AM »
Gidday All,

Fantastic stuff happening here, Confads to Luc and Ossie and among others for getting this thing moving.

I have just attached an image of a generic ignition system with a simple mod, please take a look and tell me
is it this simple to feed the LV to the top of the Dizzy with appropriate diodes and diodes on HV from coil.
The rotor is isolated which would cause a first stage spark at rotor and dizzy cap contact hopefully creating
a great spark at the plug.
Am I missing something? Could it be that easy to create plasma spark with standard igniton system?

any feedback is good feedback

Keep up the great work

Regards  Kiwi

Shiver

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #524 on: July 06, 2008, 08:40:48 AM »
Hi All,

First post, but have read the whole thread with interest.  My plan when I get around to building this was not ICE initially, as like previous posters have pointed out, I think it's more important to establish what kind of energy is liberated here, and would like to see an exploding plastic bottle.  I had always thought of vapourised/vaporized water was what I wanted to do, but it's looking more like normal atmosphere and regular water, which makes me wonder has anybody tried cold water or an ice cube?  Would warm air, being more expanded provide less insulation and allow a better spark? Or would that compete with the expansion potential of the water?

Shiver