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Author Topic: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE  (Read 1405632 times)

greendoor

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #285 on: July 02, 2008, 07:58:17 AM »
Idea:  why not use the explosion to create compressed air, and then run engines on compressed air?  This might be easier to get off the ground and running.  If we build a pressure vessel with a spark plug, pressure sensor and pressure relief valve - we could fire the spark as often as need to maintain pressure. 

Danger! Only qualified people should try to build a pressure vessel - it could be a lethal bomb. 


callanan

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #286 on: July 02, 2008, 08:13:20 AM »
Hi Dr. Stiffler, that sounds amazing. Looking forward to a video ;D

At everyone, today is Canada day and I worked all day on the circuit and found something new. The flash of the spark is so bright that I cannot look at it anymore. You cannot see this too much in the video but look at the wood board the spark plug is on, it turns blue. Also look at the last frames and you will see the flame come out of the plug over one inch.

Please look at the new video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thV6QgXHz7A

S1R has told me that when I have the kind of spark he has I would need sun glasses to look at it. I need to do more tests before I can say if this is the real thing.

Please stay tuned for updates.

Luc

Hi Luc,

Yes, SR1 said the same thing to me too. I can tell you that on the device I showed using a 20Hz sig gen with, if I used a 100uf capacitor instead of a 10uf capacitor, the discharges on the spark plug were so large, bright and continuous that they effectively blew the water spray away from the plasma before it could make contact and no explosions were observed. This makes sense. This is why such higher power tests are no good out in the open. But in the confines of a pressurised cylinder, by forcing a larger amount of water and moisture into the plasma with pressure, I expect we should get a much larger explosive result. And if there is any chain reactive effect in the explosion when pressurised, this should cause a great deal, if not all of the moisture in the cylinder to explode and we should see an exponential increase in output power. A number of us are now working on this....

Regards,

Ossie





greendoor

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #287 on: July 02, 2008, 08:25:46 AM »
It would seem the energy available is basically the Latent Heat of Evaporation as liquid water converts to vapour.  The latent heat of water is known to be 2260 Joules per gram.  1 Joule is 1 Watt per second.  Therefore exploding 1 litre (1 kg) of water into vapour has the maximum potential to supply 2,260,000 Watts for 1 second =   627 Watts for 1 hour. 

1 horsepower = 746 Watts. 

Hopefully we could get an efficiency in the range of 33%.  So it would appear that we could get some useful power out of this - but it would probably chew through the water.  Although that disagrees with the anecdotal evidence that water requirement is much less.

Or maybe i'm completely wrong.  Just trying to get a conservative guess for the sceptics.


gotoluc

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #288 on: July 02, 2008, 08:54:55 AM »
Hi Luc,

Yes, SR1 said the same thing to me too. I can tell you that on the device I showed using a 20Hz sig gen with, if I used a 100uf capacitor instead of a 10uf capacitor, the discharges on the spark plug were so large, bright and continuous that they effectively blew the water spray away from the plasma before it could make contact and no explosions were observed. This makes sense. This is why such higher power tests are no good out in the open. But in the confines of a pressurised cylinder, by forcing a larger amount of water and moisture into the plasma with pressure, I expect we should get a much larger explosive result. And if there is any chain reactive effect in the explosion when pressurised, this should cause a great deal, if not all of the moisture in the cylinder to explode and we should see an exponential increase in output power. A number of us are now working on this....

Regards,

Ossie

Hi Ossie, thanks for your reply. I must tell you that I have a very different circuit to do this now.  I am using only one 1uf capacitor to do this at around 110 volts input and no inverter. I have a variac going though a 1 to 1 Toroid which I use as an isolation transformer which goes to the FWBR to feed the new circuit.

So now I know for sure that it is not something special in the inverter that will give the effect.

Can you test your setup with only 1uf at 110 volts and see if you get flashes that are too bright to look at and you can spray as much water as you want and it keeps working?

Let me know please.

Tomorrow I'll see if I can measure the current draw.

Luc

callanan

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #289 on: July 02, 2008, 09:22:11 AM »
Hi Ossie, thanks for your reply. I must tell you that I have a very different circuit to do this now.  I am using only one 1uf capacitor to do this at around 110 volts input and no inverter. I have a variac going though a 1 to 1 Toroid which I use as an isolation transformer which goes to the FWBR to feed the new circuit.

So now I know for sure that it is not something special in the inverter that will give the effect.

Can you test your setup with only 1uf at 110 volts and see if you get flashes that are too bright to look at and you can spray as much water as you want and it keeps working?

Let me know please.

Tomorrow I'll see if I can measure the current draw.

Luc


Hi Luc,

If you are using 110V from the wall and your 1:1 toroid transformer is big enough, all you are seeing is a standard arc discharge as that in an arc welder. The ignition spark will simply be providing the ionisation for the arc to start. Just as in arc welders that have a HF spark start so that you don't need to touch the electrode and risk sticking to get the arc going. So you will find that your input energy will be significant. That is not to say that this won't be effective to test on an engine as I think it might be a good and simple test rig to prove that you can fire an engine with water in the cylinder. But I don't think it would be an efficient way to get an engine running on water in a stand alone setup. For this we need to get the electrical energy input down.

I have also gotten such an bright arc effect like an arc welder by using my simple security strobe setup/circuit and connecting 5 or 6 12V lead acid batteries in series with a large HV diode (diodes) across the spark plug. Yes the spark plug will glow red and perish and it will use heaps of input energy and be nothing more than a brute force device.

Regards,

Ossie

aether22

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #290 on: July 02, 2008, 09:31:08 AM »
Excellent, so now we have simply an isolation transformer and and a tiny tiny cap.

Since spark plugs are also not needed it really is a very easy experiment to perform.

And even an autoignition coil is not needed because seemingly whatever is the most expedient HV generator, a MOT (treated carefully for the dangerous piece is equipment is clearly is) will seemingly do fine.

And we see that it can be done in anything from humid air to drenched or even under water.

Seems to me it is now only an issue of how much mechanical power can be gained from the explosion and since that already seems decently established it is figuring out how best to apply it to an engine.

rednael

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #291 on: July 02, 2008, 09:42:57 AM »
Hi callanan and Luc,
First of all congratulation and thank you for your so much important discovery.
Can you please callanan give us a description of how the cricuit operates (the one with the sin generator).. why is the use of the xenon light. Is it acting like a switch ? I am having trouble imagining how is works.

Thank you

gotoluc

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #292 on: July 02, 2008, 09:54:34 AM »
Hi Luc,

If you are using 110V from the wall and your 1:1 toroid transformer is big enough, all you are seeing is a standard arc discharge as that in an arc welder. The ignition spark will simply be providing the ionisation for the arc to start. Just as in arc welders that have a HF spark start so that you don't need to touch the electrode and risk sticking to get the arc going. So you will find that your input energy will be significant. That is not to say that this won't be effective to test on an engine as I think it might be a good and simple test rig to prove that you can fire an engine with water in the cylinder. But I don't think it would be an efficient way to get an engine running on water in a stand alone setup. For this we need to get the electrical energy input down.

I have also gotten such an bright arc effect like an arc welder by using my simple security strobe setup/circuit and connecting 5 or 6 12V lead acid batteries in series with a large HV diode (diodes) across the spark plug. Yes the spark plug will glow red and perish and it will use heaps of input energy and be nothing more than a brute force device.

Regards,

Ossie

Thanks Ossie, those are all very good points :D I'll look into all this tomorrow :'( .. well tommorow is now LOL ;D...it's 3:50 am here now.

Later, got to catch some sleep.

Luc

Added: I'll take the video down for now until I get to the bottom of this.

greendoor

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #293 on: July 02, 2008, 10:36:24 AM »
The Graneau report indicates that it's the "Ampere force or Ampere Tension" that causes the explosion.  Is that just a way of saying that it's Current/Amps that does it?  If so - is a high voltage brute force counterproductive? 

A 12V lead acid battery can deliver massive amps with a dead short - way more than an inverter. 

Has anybody tried connecting the battery directly to the spark plug via diodes?  Nothing could possibly flow until there was a plasma spark bridging the gap? 

If the higher volts aren't actually required, it would simply be wasting Watts - if Amps are all that matter (once the plasma bridge is formed). 

greendoor

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #294 on: July 02, 2008, 10:59:03 AM »
Sorry if this is too far OT ... seems to me the main requirement is high volts (>20KV) to establish the spark, and then high amps to bust the water into vapor.  The goal is to keep the power consumption down.

I'm wondering if the high voltage generators used for air ionisers could be used?  From memory these are a diode voltage multiplier system.  Don't old TV's use some high voltage system? 

If the capacitor was switch (charged, then discharged) then should it matter how it was charged?  And won't the total power consumption of the discharge be limited by the size of th capacitor?  Just trying to rule out the objection that using AC mains power is somehow flawed.  I don't see why it can't be used - just as long as the power consumption was limited.


callanan

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #295 on: July 02, 2008, 11:33:32 AM »
The Graneau report indicates that it's the "Ampere force or Ampere Tension" that causes the explosion.  Is that just a way of saying that it's Current/Amps that does it?  If so - is a high voltage brute force counterproductive? 

A 12V lead acid battery can deliver massive amps with a dead short - way more than an inverter. 

Has anybody tried connecting the battery directly to the spark plug via diodes?  Nothing could possibly flow until there was a plasma spark bridging the gap? 

If the higher volts aren't actually required, it would simply be wasting Watts - if Amps are all that matter (once the plasma bridge is formed). 

Hi greendoor,

It is quite correct that you only need amps. But then the question of at what voltage the amps needs to be applied is purely determined by the voltage across the spark plug gap when hit by the ionising HV pulse of the ignition coil. The voltage from your battery or inverter or other power supply that is to provide the amps needs to be higher than the voltage across the ionised spark plug gap for the energy to flow into the ionised gap and produce the plasma.

The voltage of the ionised spark gap is determined by a number of factors. In particular is the spark gap distance, as well as the conductivity of the air in which moisture plays a role and finally there is the voltage and current coming from the ignition coil/pulse.

In practice I have found that by reducing the spark gap to as small as about .3 mm I can get the plasma to occur with applied voltages as low as 24 volts. But a gap so small is not too functional and is prone to clogging and shorting. A good size gap needs at least 90-100 volts applied to the spark gap to produce the plasma.

In regard to the power required. A continuous DC source will only waste input energy if one is to take advantage and increase the overall efficiency of the process. Increasing the efficiency must be done by altering the time that the minimum required energy to produce the plasma and explode the required amount of water is applied. This must be done with a DC pulse discharge for the minimum time period required. Typically a capacitor discharge performs this purpose well.

In regard to the output energy from the exploding water, if we were to make a comparative analysis, with the assumption that the exploding water process yields more output energy than the electrical energy put into the process, with a petrol explosion that is also ignited by the same spark we would find that the total output energy is not caused by the localised process of the ignition spark igniting the petrol, but we would find that it is the chain reaction in the petrol gas where each igniting gas molecule releases more energy that ignites the next molecule, and so on until all or most of the petrol gas has been ignited. If we apply this same analysis to water we would also find that if the exploding water indeed produced more energy than what was required to ignite it, then we may also assume that a chain reaction will take place where the water molecules will continue to ignite themselves until most or all have been ignited. But the water needs to be under the right pressurised conditions in the ignition cavity, just like the petrol gas is under the right conditions in the cylinder of a combustion engine.

Regards,

Ossie


aether22

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #296 on: July 02, 2008, 12:07:19 PM »
There is an advantage to discharging a coil as opposed to straight inverter output or energy from a cap, the coil as used by s1r will have a high or low a voltage as required, if the resistance is low it will put more amps over a longer period of time, if it is high it will generate a higher voltage.

Of course using a collapsing field from a coil is also somewhat tricky to get just right.

callanan

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #297 on: July 02, 2008, 12:13:36 PM »
Hi callanan and Luc,
First of all congratulation and thank you for your so much important discovery.
Can you please callanan give us a description of how the cricuit operates (the one with the sin generator).. why is the use of the xenon light. Is it acting like a switch ? I am having trouble imagining how is works.

Thank you

Hi rednael,

You are correct. The xenon tube is only acting as a switch to discharge the 14uf, 350V capacitor inside the strobe light circuit. In regard to the operation of the circuits I have posted, please read through this thread from the beginning as I have describe most things about them in my previous posts. Here is a summary of some of my posts in chronological order.

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.msg108614.html#msg108614
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.msg108731.html#msg108731
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.msg108838.html#msg108838
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.msg108956.html#msg108956
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.msg109072.html#msg109072
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.msg109229.html#msg109229
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.msg109420.html#msg109420
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.msg109475.html#msg109475

Regards,

Ossie

greendoor

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #298 on: July 02, 2008, 12:54:36 PM »
I think there are some big questions and big assumptions here.  Have we have ruled out the dissassociation of water into H & O?  Is it agreed that this is a lower temperature effect, being the liberating of latent heat between the liquid & vapour phases of water? 

We are assuming this behaves remotely like conventional petrol or gas combusion engines.  Will a higher compression ratio help or hinder? 

I'm guessing this effect is the working principle of lightening & thunder.  Lightening is known to be plasma discharge.  AFAIK, lightening doesn't need compressed air to work.  In weather terms, aren't storms the result of a low pressure region?  Maybe very low compression engines will be better than high compression? Less wasted power?  Storm clouds tend to be very tall, dense clouds.  I've tended to assume that lightening happens when there is sufficient water "shorting out" the potential difference in the atmosphere. 

Is liquid water better than a mist?

A small percentage of soluble oil might be beneficial mainly to stop rusting being a show stopper.  In time, I expect new engine designs will optimise this process.  Maybe if this is fairly low temp, we could use nylon piston rings or other plastic parts.

Maybe a steam engine type design is the way forward ...

Only experiments will find this out.   

k4zep

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Re: URGENT! WATER AS FUEL DISCOVERY FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #299 on: July 02, 2008, 01:58:53 PM »
@All
I just could not walk away without trying something else. I was interested in the usage of the series Xenon and wondered what a Xenon plasma would do and not use the pulse flashing.

Now I admit I have changed things a little, but if you want a shock wave here is how to get it. In a cylinder with a movable piston, fill the cylinder 1/2 full of water with the piston just under the surface, call it a down stroke position. With two SS wires I electrolyze some of the water, the gas stays in the water with much going against the piston. Fire your spark and all hell breaks free. Not only does the gas explode but it appears to cause a secondary reaction that splits off additional that is consumed.
Granted this does not sound good for running a conventional engine, but hey, new engine a water engine. You do not even need oil in the crankcase as water is a fine lube. Now for the best part, the plasma and or the flash can be used to preheat the water and it reacts faster and with more force.

So gentleman maybe its time to go to the lathe and milling machine, this could work, assuming you have a water supply. Oh and I was doing this on 20V@50ma, not bad.

The jury of course is still out on if this is in any way connected to some other form of trigger energy, heck if we can split water and get it to chain react in some way, why not.

Good Morning Dr. Stiffler,

Your discovery of using  a suspended gas in the water and then a plasma pulse setting off the whole mess is a whole new take on this process.  Also, if the piston/cylinder was full at the start of the power pulse, essentially a zero displacement engine due to the incompressibility of the water and then "POW"...as you say all "hell would break loose" as that water/mixture has to go somewhere!

Most excellent
Ben