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Author Topic: magnetic battery  (Read 26351 times)

Offline Creativity

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magnetic battery
« on: June 23, 2008, 01:31:45 PM »
last days i trouble my brain with some new energy storage possibilities for a vehicle.I never heard of a magnetic battery? does it exist?
my first thought would be a magnet inside of a coil.When warmed beyond Curie point,domains would disorder generating some magnetic fluxes through the coil and generating electricity.For example a weak earth magnetic field could be used in combination with sun heat to magnetize the magnet back.

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magnetic battery
« on: June 23, 2008, 01:31:45 PM »

Offline Koen1

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Re: magnetic battery
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2008, 01:31:21 PM »
I believe that is a tested concept, if I'm not mistaken it is referred to
as an "adiabatic magnetic generator", or at least that seems very close...
The version that comes to mind is one where the magnetic domains are
aligned by a magnetic field and then the field is dropped, allowing the
magnetic domains in a soft iron core to 'randomly' rearrange themselves
according to environmental "thermal" noise. If I recall correctly that was
found to be a functional principle but output was extremely low compared
to relatively high input, although in a certain ideal situation it could
produce minimal amounts of power.

To do this with the curie point by heating it seems like an inefficient
way, seems to me more output could be derived from direct thermoelectric
effect... But I may be wrong of course. ;)

But the main reason for there not being a magnetic battery is, in my opinion,
the fact that generation of current from a magnet needs active fluctuations of
the field intensity and/or polarity, so it needs to be an actively oscillating system,
and that falls in the category of electrodynamic generators while batteries
fall under the category of electrochemical reactors and need only contact surfaces
between different chemicals/elements to undergo reaction. 
So it's a different type of beastie.

But in theory concepts such as "Bearden's" MEG should work, as should
variations on the concept. Basically, you can put a permanent magnet in
a transformer core exactly in the middle so half the flux goes around one
side of the core and the other half around the other side. Then you wrap
two small "primaries" or "controller coils" around the top or bottom "arms"
of the core, and two larger "secondaries" or "collector coils" around the
side "arms" of the core (where a normal core would have the primary and
secondary coils). Now you can feed alternating current to the "primaries"
in such a way that the flux from the central magnet is opposed by
one "primary" and in alignment with the other "primary", which guides
all of the magnets flux through the one leg of the core. At the moment
all the flux "flips" to that "leg" of the core, the "secondary" there will
"see" the flux in its core leg double in intensity, and it will generate a current.
Right after that, we alternate the polarity of the current through the "primaries",
and 100% of the magnets flux will now "flip" over to the other "leg".
This again induces a current in the "secondary" that has just lost all of the
flux in its "core leg", and at the same time it induces a current in the "secondary"
that suddenly "sees" all of the flux enter its formerly empty "leg".
And if we keep "flipping" the flux this way, we should be able to get output,
the power of which should be proportional to the strength of the permanent
magnets field and the frequency of oscillation.
Theoretically we should be able to get more out than we put in that way,
because it takes less energy to guide existing flux through one of two
flux paths of equal length than it takes to actually produce that same
amount of flux (like a normal transformer does, and there are already
transformers of the normal type that are 98% efficient...).

OU has been claimed for the MEG, but for some reason it is still not
available on the open market... It was said they had trouble closed-looping
the thing, but at the same time COPs of 300+% have been mentioned...

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Offline Creativity

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Re: magnetic battery
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2008, 03:50:58 PM »
interesting.U know what is for me so strange?that electricity and magnetism are easily transformed one in the other but there is no need of changing of electric field to get a magnetic one.Aja... wait   :) actually a current is flowing through a coil so it is also kind of dynamic.Would be nice to have a flowing magnetic current... or for example a bursts of magnetc field are also ok.
If light is electromagnetic wave ,why there is no materials that are getting magnetic field when light falls on them (but there are PV that do it for electricity) or r there?. we seems to be trapped into electricity only.something is not matching

hmm what would happen if a light was to travel in a circle(like in a bend optic fibre)...

Offline resonanceman

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Re: magnetic battery
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2008, 04:32:23 PM »
interesting.U know what is for me so strange?that electricity and magnetism are easily transformed one in the other but there is no need of changing of electric field to get a magnetic one.Aja... wait   :) actually a current is flowing through a coil so it is also kind of dynamic.Would be nice to have a flowing magnetic current... or for example a bursts of magnetc field are also ok.
If light is electromagnetic wave ,why there is no materials that are getting magnetic field when light falls on them (but there are PV that do it for electricity) or r there?. we seems to be trapped into electricity only.something is not matching

hmm what would happen if a light was to travel in a circle(like in a bend optic fibre)...


It  seems to me that there is  alot  of possabilities  in this area .

In many ways  magnetic flux  flows much like  electric current . 

Has anyone  really  studied   magnetic  flux in this way?

What  would it take to make a magnetic  oscilator ?
It seems to me that any  magnetic oscilator  would  also be  a motionless  generator   


gary


Offline Koen1

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Re: magnetic battery
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2008, 12:49:02 PM »
In many ways  magnetic flux  flows much like  electric current . 
Well, actually it doesn't. Magnetic flux differs from electrical current in more ways
than it shows similarities.

Quote
Has anyone  really  studied   magnetic  flux in this way?
I think many people have, and most have concluded that flux and current are
very different things. Some have not, but they tend to jump to conclusions
or see proof for their own assumptions where logical deduction does not.

Quote
What  would it take to make a magnetic  oscilator ?
A flux capacitor. ;D
And if you have that, then call the X-files because only the mad scientist
from "Back to the Future" has managed to build one. ;) :D

Quote
It seems to me that any  magnetic oscilator  would  also be  a motionless  generator
Yes, it could be. If you can make one.
Well, of course, you can make an oscillator where the B-field oscillates, but that is a normal
self-oscillating LC-circuit. In other words, a capacitor and a coil, and a bit of charge on the
capacitor to start the oscillation.
And that's not what you're talking about, is it?
After all, that's a very common piece of technology.   

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Re: magnetic battery
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2008, 12:49:02 PM »
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Offline triffid

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Re: magnetic battery
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2008, 01:00:04 PM »
I understand that the" cook coil "that was patented about a 150 years ago was called a magnetic battery on the patent .It took being stroked with a small magnet to get the current flowing.Triffid

Offline triffid

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Re: magnetic battery
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2008, 01:03:34 PM »
I think too that the hans coler device was built along similar lines.It was able to put out a couple of kilowatts.So these things can be scaled up.Triffid

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Re: magnetic battery
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2008, 01:03:34 PM »
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Offline Creativity

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Re: magnetic battery
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2008, 03:07:21 PM »
i think more along the lines of "freezing" a magnetic field,just like capacitor freezes the electric field.Creating of a magnetic capacitor would be then possible and who knows maybe it is cheaper and easier to store magnetic than electric field.In that case let us say a magnetic current exists somehow with a far shot maybe a kind of a particle orbiting an electron on a circle orbit perpendiculair to the movement of the electron.(it moves perpendiculair to the magnetic field(and electric field of atom-electron pair) having some magnetic 'charge' opposite to the one in electron->kind of atom with the center beeing electron).

I guess magnetic field is more like an electric field than the electric current,but i let myself totally open with thinking now .So don't be shy,this topic is about creative brainstorming  ;D wildest idea's r welcome!Me kind of tired to think along the physics all the time (as i do 99% of the time ;)).

Offline Groundloop

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Re: magnetic battery
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2008, 03:09:18 PM »
@Koen1,

I do not know anybody that actually has managed to replicate a working MEG, including myself.
If you have ANY tips on how to get a MEG to work then I will be gratefull.

See: http://home.no/ufoufoufoufo/MEG/meg.htm

Groundloop.

Offline Koen1

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Re: magnetic battery
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2008, 04:04:32 PM »
Well Bearden and his friends claim that it works,
they claim that it has been replicated many times
by independent researchers (http://www.cheniere.org/megstatus.htm),
they were granted a patent on the thing in 2000 (http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=0&f=S&l=50&TERM1=6362718&FIELD1=&co1=AND&TERM2=&FIELD2=&d=ft00),
and our French hero mr. Naudin has had what appears to be proof of OU
in his replication of the MEG tests posted on his webiste since 2000 or so as well:
http://jnaudin.free.fr/meg/megv21.htm
(with the broader picture in http://jnaudin.free.fr/meg/meg.htm)

I don't recall any other replications, to be honest.

But the concept seems sound... It's like a half-wave transformer with two secondaries
where the flux source is a magnet instead of the primary coil...
And (to my knowledge and experience at least) it is true that magnetic flux,
given two equal length flux paths, will very easily be "bent" into one
of the two paths by a fairly weak electromagnetic pulse...

But no, I do not personally know anyone who has managed to build a working
MEG replication, nor have I personally ever seen one.
Nor have I seen others proudly present their MEG-powered household ;)

And it is a bit curious that the MEG is still not commercially available,
since back in 2003 they were already thinking about marketing the thing as far
as I know...
Heh, Bearden says something about that on his website in a reply to an email:
Quote from: Bearden
Date: Mon, 5 May 2008
 
Dear Mr. S***

 
We already have the contracts in place for the MEG, etc.
Whenever the UN funds are released to our contractor for his projects, we will have funding and will get on with the MEG.
(from http://www.cheniere.org/correspondence/050508.htm)
...which sounds a bit funny to me... So they're waiting for UN funding to produce the MEG?
Of course it's great to want to play this through UN channels and ultimately allow anyone
anywhere in the world to obtain a MEG, if that is their goal,
but I would assume there are many other humanitarian organisations and perhaps even national
governments who are willing to contribute to what realistically is the release of mankind
from energy slavery? A fast, not instant, but fast, and feasable way to eliminate the energy crisis
once and for all, no more skyhigh oil prices, no more need for CO2 emissions (just build
a MEG and electromotor into every car, or use them to produce hydrogen if you don't want to
kill off the fuel sector completely), and if available for personal use even the possibility
to do away with huge power plants and the accompanying ugly high tension cable towers,
pollution, and even those annoying energy bills could stop coming. ;)

Sorry about the rant. ;)

Anyway, I had seen your replication before, and to be honest it looks like
a really good job, and you seem to have followed the patent to the letter,
so why it doesn't work is a complete mystery to me.
I do recall from a few years back, other discussion group, other board,
that some guys were also working on replications that they had trouble getting to work,
and I seem to recall there was some talk of the pickup coils having to be wound
differently than the patent stated... But, again if I recall correctly, those guys
contacted Bearden about it and he refused to give any info (claimed that had
to do with the patent application and/or NDA or something) and I think they
finally dropped it.
I fully agree with you that it is strange the device has still not been marketed or even
taken into production yet, if all they claim about it is true. Makes one wonder if perhaps
it didn't work after all... ;)


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: magnetic battery
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2008, 04:04:32 PM »
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Offline Groundloop

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Re: magnetic battery
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2008, 05:21:36 PM »
@Koen1,

Thank you for that detailed answer. Yes, I have followed the patent paper very closely but that is maybe the problem? I do not think that the patent paper is showing the whole picture. T. Bearden has many times talked about that this is a non-linear circuit. It is probably a very small "window" where the circuit works. It is just like tuning a radio circuit. Suddenly you hit the right frequency in your coils and everything works. Maybe the MEG needs a tuning of some sort? Maybe some special coils as you say. My problem with my MEG is that when the magnet is in plase there is only one way to redo the coils and that is by threading. The magnet is so powerfull that I will rip the Metglass core to small fragments if I try to remove the magnet. Threading coils is boring and time consuming.

Groundloop.

Offline resonanceman

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Re: magnetic battery
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2008, 08:54:13 PM »
i think more along the lines of "freezing" a magnetic field,just like capacitor freezes the electric field.Creating of a magnetic capacitor would be then possible and who knows maybe it is cheaper and easier to store magnetic than electric field.In that case let us say a magnetic current exists somehow with a far shot maybe a kind of a particle orbiting an electron on a circle orbit perpendiculair to the movement of the electron.(it moves perpendiculair to the magnetic field(and electric field of atom-electron pair) having some magnetic 'charge' opposite to the one in electron->kind of atom with the center beeing electron).

I guess magnetic field is more like an electric field than the electric current,but i let myself totally open with thinking now .So don't be shy,this topic is about creative brainstorming  ;D wildest idea's r welcome!Me kind of tired to think along the physics all the time (as i do 99% of the time ;)).


I  don't have any idea  how to make a capacitor  for magnetic flux ........but if we  found a way it  might open LOTS of  doors .   


gary


Offline resonanceman

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Re: magnetic battery
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2008, 09:20:33 PM »
@Koen1,

I do not know anybody that actually has managed to replicate a working MEG, including myself.
If you have ANY tips on how to get a MEG to work then I will be gratefull.

See: http://home.no/ufoufoufoufo/MEG/meg.htm

Groundloop.


I took  a look  at  your  MEG

I am no expert ............but  I do  have  a little insite  into  relationships between  things  .. .......and  energy flows .

If  my understanding of the overall  concept of the MEG  is  to  use  the control  coils to make  the flux from the magnet  oscilate  from side to side . .


At first  glance it would seem that  bigger is better   as far as  the magnet goes .  ....... I think  that is  your problem  .

If  you look at the diagram  of the MEG on your  website    you  will see a  space on each side of the magnet that is  about  half  as  thick  as the magnet is . ..........I think this space is VERY IMPORTANT .

For  any given  power  your   control  coils  can only  affect  a finite  amount of  flux  from the magnet ......... you have a VERY strong  magnet  almost  right on top of    your  control  coil ..    The  flux in the  core  will change  relatively  easily .......  your magnets  are close enough that   flux from the magnet  is  bound to be flowing  directly  through  your  control coil ..............this  flux will NOT change  easily


What  I would try  if  I was  in your shoes .

Your  pickup  coils  have a white  end cap  of some kind .      I would  try to hack  away  any  of this end cap that I could   to  make room to slide  the  control  coils out away from the magnet .
If that  helps a little but not enough .........I would boost  the  control  coil  voltage


hope this helps



gary 
« Last Edit: June 25, 2008, 09:41:39 PM by resonanceman »

Offline Groundloop

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Re: magnetic battery
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2008, 10:14:48 PM »
@resonanceman,

Thank you for the kind advice. It is a nightmare to try to change the layout of the core now that the
strong Neo magnet is in there. I can't take it apart any more because it will ruin the brittle core.
The only way I can change the coils is by unwinding them by threading. Then I can make new ones.
There is no room for sliding the control coils even if I remove the plastic. That said, I tested the coils
before I put the magnet in there. The worrying part is that I see NO difference with the magnet in or
without a magnet. The core and coils do behave as a normal transformer. As to control voltage,
I have designed the system so that one of the output coils will be the generator when the unit runs.
The big coil will provide up to 100 Volt for the control coils. 100 Volt is the design limit of the parts used.
If there was any effect of amplification then the control voltage will automatic go up to 100 volt when the unit runs.

I tested the oscillator from 1Hz to approx. 200KHz without that to happen. So far, all I have is a 97%
good transformer. And testing shows that I also had a 97% good transformer without the magnet.
Since I have the same coupling of energy with or without the magnet in the core then I think that the
flux from the magnet is flowing inside the core and not through the plastic and control coils at all.
With the magnet in there there is NO measurable flux outside the Metglass core.
The casing around the unit is made of aluminum and is non magnetic.
There is no difference if I lift the core outside of the alu box.

To conclude, I think that there is more to this MEG than the information in the patent papers. I guess we
have to wait until the T. Bearden's team puts units out on the market (if ever).

Groundloop.

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Offline resonanceman

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Re: magnetic battery
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2008, 10:48:46 PM »

Since I have the same coupling of energy with or without the magnet in the core then I think that the
flux from the magnet is flowing inside the core and not through the plastic and control coils at all.
With the magnet in there there is NO measurable flux outside the Metglass core.


This is  exactly what I  would  expect  if your  control  coils  are sturated  bu the  flux from the magnet . ...... your  control coils are  totally ineffective  in their  present location . 


Quote

To conclude, I think that there is more to this MEG than the information in the patent papers. I guess we
have to wait until the T. Bearden's team puts units out on the market (if ever).



If course there is more to the MEG than  shown in the patent .    No  one  shows  any more information  than they have to  .   The rule  that applies  is that it  should be enough for someone else SKILLED IN THE  ART  to duplicate it .   
How many  people are there that are currently  skilled in the art of making  OU  transformers ?


If you  think  you have to just  sit on your  butt  and wait .............so  be it .
Personally I think  you  are probably  99.9 %  there .
Wouldn't  it be sad  if you  waited years for the last  .1%

gary

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Re: magnetic battery
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2008, 10:48:46 PM »

 

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