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Author Topic: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum  (Read 31064 times)

Offline zenarrow

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Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
« Reply #30 on: June 22, 2008, 06:34:55 AM »
Here is the 2 Stroke version using HHO in a vacuum, to create an implosion after decompression.
It is slowed right down to show each necessary stage.

I will explain it in more detail when I get more time...

Though the diagram itself is fairly self explanatory with the different phases/cycles.

(http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn108/zenarrow/HHO2strokeImplosion.gif)


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Offline zenarrow

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Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
« Reply #31 on: June 22, 2008, 08:00:57 AM »
Explaining the above HHO Brown's Gas Diagram

Implosion

1. This requires modifications to a standard 4 stroke engine with a double over head cam (DOHC).

2. The intake system of carberettor or Fuel Injection would need to be modified to take GAS as the primary input. Ideal EFI would be best with modifications as required to the sensors in the feedback as discussed in other HHO modfications. It would also require the bubbler safety mechanisms to prevent flash back.

3. To convert a 4 stroke to 2 stroke, the cams need to be modified with their cog sizes to be the same size (number of teeth) as the crankshaft (bottom rotating wheel)

4. The cams need to be modified for their timing for opening valves different, and will most likely need to be ground by a grinder, or welded and ground to get the desired effect. Trial and error experimentation will be needed to get it right. (Still in Prototype stages)


The CYCLES Explained...
1. Intake Cycle
Just after TDC (about 10 deg) the inlet valve opens to let in the HHO which is electronic fuel injected at this timing. (electronic feedback sesnor required to accuracy of the stroke degrees). The intake continues to take in the HHO till about 70 deg past TDC and closes.

2. Decompression Cycle
The remainder of the downward stroke from 70 to 100 deg (90 is half way down) creates a vacuum and spreads the HHO into this area more so.

3. Firing Cycle
Is at approx 100 to 175 deg after TDC (Trial Experiments to be done) and will vary with advance timing as does the regular 4 stroke engine allow for different RPM. At slow speed or starting speed, the timing might well need to fire at BDC (180 deg after TDC) which is the bottom of the stroke. The resultant HHO gas (Brown's Gas HHO Monoatomic not Diatomic HHO) ignited in a vacuum results in an Implosion (NOTE: IMPORTANT, HHO Gas in a clear container with sunlight will split from Monoatomic to Diatomic and will not behave the same. Ignited in room atmospheric levels, Diatomic POPS louder)

4. Implosion Cycle
From the point of ignition to the resultant implosion there will be a delay, based on the properties of HHO, and the RPM of the engine. Hence the timing of the firing must advance as the speed goes up for efficiency of the power stroke, which is this implosion stroke. It goes from just prior to BDC, thru BDC, and upwards to near TDC, with the piston being sucked upwards toward TDC.

5. Exhaust Cycle
Several Degrees BTC the exhaust valve opens and lets the exhaust gases out, which by all accounts reported should be water, as liquid. The force of the piston moving up acts like a pump, however, the fact that the implosion is about 1800th of the gas volume, means that the SUCKING towards the top might continue if let go to even after the the time that the valve needs to be opened. The exhaust valve opening, of course, if there still is a vacuum, will start to suck air in through it. So this needs to be compensated for with a suction pump after the exhaust port, and might require it's own system, to suck the water out and remove it as water. I can also be collected to be put back into the Brown's Gas HHO Cell. This would theoretically make it a sealed system. The exhaust valve then closes at TDC ready for the restart of the intake cycle in step 1 around 10 Deg after TDC.


Heres that diagram again so it's all in ONE post.
(http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn108/zenarrow/HHO2strokeImplosion.gif)

FINAL NOTE: All these settings of degrees are approximations of the theory and will vary with fine tuning to what is the most efficient with consideration for speeds of gas injection, from the delays of starting a cycle to it happening in actuality. This applies to all stages, including the burning, decompression, implosion and exhaust. Like all machines, a balance of all the different forces needs to be found and optomized for it to work basically, then made more efficient. As to what tolerances are allowable for this in the forces of nature, trial and error experimentation is required.

NOTE ooops... on the diagram it says...

Ratio 1:1  Cam 1 to Drive Shaft 2
it should read..
Ratio 1:1  Cam 1 to Drive Shaft 1
« Last Edit: June 22, 2008, 08:32:02 AM by zenarrow »


Offline zenarrow

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Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
« Reply #32 on: June 22, 2008, 08:29:22 AM »
Expand and contract. I've blown up bubblers by doing it too.

You might want to examine my last post on the modified 4 stroke engine into 2 strokes, with 5 cycles in those 2 strokes.

This will show a different environment of a vacuum effect in a sealed space of the cylinder. There is a detailed explanation of the theory.

Offline zenarrow

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Something I forgot. It came to me in the middle of the night.
Distributer Cap.
Since I am working with a motorcycle this is not a problem, as the electrical firing to each cylinder has its own HT Coil to the spark plug. A car however has to rotor pointing at the correct lead.

The distributer itself has the sensor for firing. Where the points used to be for those with modern Electronic Ignitions. The distributer itself is rotated to get the electrical timing correct. These days it's rarely touched as there is no wear like there used to be with points. However, it can be loosened and the timing firing changed.

Now the main problem here is going to be that the rotation of the distributer for one revolution, will be for the 4 stroke and not the 2. Meaning the same mod to the cams cogs will have to be performed here. The cams need their cog size reduced to half the diameter and teeth count. The Distributer likewise will need to have the cog size reduced to half size and teeth. Now this can be a major problem to solve depending on how this makes the connection to the engine. As it used to be in splines, which is a major connection. I do remember seeing stuff about years ago, about different splines on distributors. This may have to be a custom made part. And likely the spline it mates with will also need to be changed to allow for a good fit with distance. As if the shaft centres are kept the same distance as prior, and one cog is reduced in diameter and teeth, then they will not even touch each other.

A motor cycle has the pick up for firing on the crankshaft in most cases. And the 4 cylinder, actually fires 2 cylinders at the same time from the same coil. A 4 cylinder has 2 coils with 2 High Tension leads coming out. These are paired to fire 2 & 4 at the same time, and 1 & 3 at the same time. One is actually in its firing strok, the other is in the exhaust stroke, and the firing there is just an extra which makes no difference. However the good news is, now with the mods to convert it to 2 strokes for a full cycle as above, that redundancy firing will now in fact be used exactly where it is supposed to be. It is almost like it was foreknown to be like this in the destiny of mankind ;D lol.

Other factors are that now fuel is being used up and burnt twice as often. However, it might be that less fuel is required, and less engine speed (RPM) required, in order to get the same power as petrol/gasoline. This will make a difference to the output drive chain from the engine to the wheels. And might require changes to gear it to allow for less RPM to a faster wheel speed.
On a bike this is simply done by a smaller sprocket on the back wheel, and/or a larger on the drive shaft. (of course wear and tear has cogs and chains mate with each other, but for proto types that can be over looked till it is finalized, with caution for chains slipping off)
With a car this requires different ratio diferentials (the DIFF) on the rear wheel drives. Front wheel drives is another language to what I am used to, and I have no idea what goes on in the magic box ;) ... yet. ;)

An old 4 cylinder is an idea testing for this. Motorcyle prototype to then refine the data to make it for a car. Personally I used to love the old Gemini Holden with the Isuzu engine 1600cc. They were fairly robust and took a lot of abuse ;) These can all be purchases for less than $2000 in a going state. Or cheaper. Mods could likely be done in the car itself, using the car as a workshop, for those who have a parking space to spare ;D.






Offline zenarrow

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Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
« Reply #34 on: June 23, 2008, 09:14:14 AM »
here is a side by side animated gif of the two engine types side by side.
That is the regular 4 stroke engine on the left.
The modified 4 stroke into a 2 stroke HHO Implosion on the right.
These are very slowed down, and some stage pause, in order to synchronize the relative functions from one engine to the other. Remember the 4 stroke is doing 2 revolutions of the crank to the 2 strokes 1 revolution. There is a lot of pausing one to have the other catch up.

The power stroke of the 4 stroke is included in the firing. The power stroke of the 2 stroke is the implosion.

(http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn108/zenarrow/4strksbs2strkHHOs80.gif)

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Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
« Reply #34 on: June 23, 2008, 09:14:14 AM »
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Offline jikwan

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Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
« Reply #35 on: June 23, 2008, 11:30:42 PM »
zen arrow
this idea is blowing my mind
radical revolutionary even though its an old concept
keep on keeping on man
nice graphics

Offline zenarrow

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Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
« Reply #36 on: June 24, 2008, 03:01:02 PM »
zen arrow
this idea is blowing my mind
radical revolutionary even though its an old concept
keep on keeping on man
nice graphics

Thanks jikwan

I have just finished a video explaining it with the animations. Here is a playlist, the first 2 videos on the play list are the first 2 animated gifs above, doing about 4 or 5 cycles for about 30 seconds.

The 3rd video is one I just finished. Which goes for 10:46 and uses both animations, and explains the workings of the 4 stroke with a voice over, pauses, etc, and the 2 stroke conversion to an Implosion Engine. As well as playing the side by side at for the remaing minute or so.

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=7AF455C0A317C691

Perhaps later when I feel motivated to do so, I will explain with voice over the side by side cycles.

I get visions in my head of these things. I found describing them so someone else understands them is just falling far short of connecting most times. Since I am a philosopher as well, I see people arguing against others all the time, where both agree, but think the other is disagreeing with them. Such is the dysfunctional world we live it. To do it with anything less than a visual aid, is just too frustrating. I encourage all to use visual aids and use the multimedia technology we have available. It is worth learning, and should be part of the schooling requirements. For the future of mankind depends on us learning to communicate effectively. For from assumption only comes all manner strife. Assumptions shape the illusions we think are reality.

Peace by Kindness NOT War

ZenArrow
« Last Edit: June 24, 2008, 03:59:49 PM by zenarrow »

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Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
« Reply #36 on: June 24, 2008, 03:01:02 PM »
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Offline GravityDad

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Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
« Reply #37 on: June 25, 2008, 02:26:36 AM »
I sometimes have the same visions of people exchanging ideas and arriving at wondrous conclusions  :o I just stumbled across this Brown's gas 2 weeks ago doing "research" on wet oxygen for possible NOx reduction. To my surprise very little has been researched. It seems either quackery or took off toward Fuel Cell technology. The idea of an IMPLODING engine does sound different and certainly goes against all we think of as todays COMBUSTION engine. That maybe the problem in trying to combine HHO with todays engines. One thought I did have was how about turning the whole "engine" upside down!  ;D  Another is using HHO should not create any heat so out goes the radiator. This may present a problem in keeping the engine stable through cold and weather? Another idea that I have jumbling around in my head is: can magnetic force be used to somehow "couple" the "piston" instead of mechanical linkage. Remember the "block" can be made of almost anything since no real heat is generated. Ok enough here hope you keep up the good work zen arrow.

Offline zenarrow

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Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
« Reply #38 on: June 25, 2008, 06:41:11 AM »
I sometimes have the same visions of people exchanging ideas and arriving at wondrous conclusions  :o I just stumbled across this Brown's gas 2 weeks ago doing "research" on wet oxygen for possible NOx reduction. To my surprise very little has been researched. It seems either quackery or took off toward Fuel Cell technology. The idea of an IMPLODING engine does sound different and certainly goes against all we think of as todays COMBUSTION engine. That maybe the problem in trying to combine HHO with todays engines. One thought I did have was how about turning the whole "engine" upside down!  ;D  Another is using HHO should not create any heat so out goes the radiator. This may present a problem in keeping the engine stable through cold and weather? Another idea that I have jumbling around in my head is: can magnetic force be used to somehow "couple" the "piston" instead of mechanical linkage. Remember the "block" can be made of almost anything since no real heat is generated. Ok enough here hope you keep up the good work zen arrow.

Hey GravityDad

Some very good ideas there.
The upside down engine was my first idea to, for the draining.
I am not sure on the magnetic force idea yet, will have to ponder some.
My mind likes the idea of many different concepts being overlaid to enhance one another. And I guess that is kinda my long term goal. To put all branches into one as it were. A bit like how the human mouth has so many uses for so many systems. From eating input, to tasting foods and drinks, to drinking, breathing, talking, to kissing and more.

If you watched my recent video, the second comment was about the valves being "sucked in" by the implosion, and getting past them. So that too is something to consider. The idea has been on my mind during sleep, and I was thinking that both valves are only open near TDC, and perhaps a mechanical linkage might hold them shut until near TDC. But that is a sloppy fix, based on trying to keep the current engine design. He also suggest the rotary engine, and was going to get back to me with information on that.

My first idea was to put the valves above the head, with a redesign. So sucking down would only seal them better.

If you research Dr Yul Brown, and there is a poor sound quality video on my unityenergy youtube channel http://www.youtube.com/user/UnityEnergy you will find that he couldn't get funding for research on it. It is atrocious sound, the mic is so far from him, and there is background interference. Almost like a conspiracy lol. But seriously, funding for this would put all fossil fuel companies out of business, and its right under our noses, we drink it to live. So hence no funding is deeper than he may have realized. When the reporter interviewer mentions the implosion, Brown does not want to go into it. Almost like he either knew of complications, or knew that any ideas on this would be thwarted by other sources.

The fuel companies dont mind HHO as an additive, as they still get to sell you oil products.
Ever wondered why they are still drilling for more oil, when there is the icecaps melting? The other week I heard a politican say plastic was bad, and said we are going to paper bags for groceries. Hello? Does anyone really take trees as the earths lungs seriously? Or it is based on, well everyone else is doing it, so it must not be so bad? Said the smoker who had lung cancer. Just had to get some perspective on why we want better ways of doing things. Personally I think money is almost like a disease. I prefer not to have money be any part of my motivation for anything. Pure science knowledge is the only motivator, with some ethics for tempering. Sorry didnt want to sound like a greenie. Im just aware of the balance of nature, and the need for the earth to stop smoking fossil fuels.

As far as engine temp in various weather conditions. I have not really experienced the cold nor the heat, thank God, I live in Sydney which I hear is like California weather. With only a handful of hot days a year and likewise of cold. It would be ironic if we ended up having to create the equivalent of an air conditioner for the engine bay? lol But since we are not generating any heat as a side effect to heat any water. Though temperature does sound like it would be a potential problem. But that is a future knowledge factor for the ball park figures of min and max operating temperatures. We need to get it running first.

Just a thought on the valve situation, a flash image in my mind of wheels rotating on the cam axis. Where the actuall wheel has a flat edge like a flat tyre, and seals up. But that is a lot of friction. Flash ideas, mmmm lol. Though maybe rubber is not such a bad idea either if there is less heat. Maybe like a squash ball blocking a hole. These are very off the top of my head flash ideas, so please dont think they are totally daft, just brainstorming possible combinations. As you say, sharing ideas.

Thanks for your input and reply.

Offline zenarrow

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Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
« Reply #39 on: June 25, 2008, 08:29:01 AM »
Potential Valve problem...

It was noted by a comment to the video at my unityenergy You Tube channel
(video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndpk3qAJS-8&feature=PlayList&p=7AF455C0A317C691&index=2)

The comment by patman2nv
Quote
I dont think that is a very good theory for a couple reasons. First wouldn't the implosion pull the valves open easier than pulling the piston up? that could result in an implosion or reaction further back in the system. this theory may work better with a rotary engine.I saw on here a new engine in development that is a rotory cyle engine that uses combustion but i know that the way the ports are designed on that it should, in theory , work!!!!!!! i will find it and post again for you.

I do wonder how much different stronger valve springs would make?
As I do recall many hi performance engines have heavier springs to prevent or reduce valve bounce at hi speed. Of course the heavier springs would mean more load on the cams system. the other side of this is that the valves most likely would not need to open as much as for petrol fuel, at least on the exhaust cycle. The intake is up for experimentation, as is all of it. I do remind the reader this is all just ideas on the drawing board currently. I really like to have a lot of thought into the outcome before I commit to modifying my motorcycle ;D

I am also considering the standard two stroke petrol engine, with ports. It's something to get my head around and it would be most likely a design from scratch. But that would be like casting it all.

On the other hand, if there is no explosive heat, I am considering a complete redesign of everything.

There are quite a lot of animations of a standard petroleum 2 stroke engine processes, really an ingenius idea. Though they have been improved for the many inefficiency losses due to speed differences. The original 2 strokes didnt have advance timing, nor reed valves to prevent losses. However an old Bridgestone 2 stroke I had come my way some 26 years ago, and also the kh125, had a rotary disc acting like valve going past the carbie in the crankcase input.

I have to get more familiar with the 2 stroke to see what needs modifying. To know how it works is different to being intimate. It's like learning an alphabet, words, sentence contructions, and how to put together paragraphs, by comparison, the various stages of familarity allow flow. The difference between having to stop and think, or having it come forth as second nature without conscious thought. Such is the creative inventive mind, familiarity with the principles as tools. (I did design an electronic advance for a 2 stroke some 22 years ago, then Suzuki came out with one 2 years later) But I am not so familiar with the ports internal aspects intimately.


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Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
« Reply #39 on: June 25, 2008, 08:29:01 AM »
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Offline zenarrow

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Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
« Reply #40 on: June 25, 2008, 11:47:51 AM »
Standard Petrol 2 Stroke Valveless Design

I have been pondering on the standard petrol 2 stroke, and a concept of complete redesign for implosion, and it has come to my reckoning that my first attemps while they can suck the gas in, by creating a vacuum low pressure, that the gas would seemingly always (yet to be determined, but seem right so far) be under compression when firing.

Now this whole thread is about HHO in a vacuum imploding. I do wonder if it was put into a normal engine under compression, if it would behave differently again when fired in a regular 4 stroke compression cycle, or 2 stroke. Maybe I am chasing an old idea which was given up for this reason. That it works just as well with compression. In the video I have on my YouTube channle with poor sound of an interview with Yul Brown in Australia, he fobbs off the the idea of decompression/implosion and says don't worry about that. However in that video he had an Australian holden engine running on the gas. Though the interviewer, American, says, "what's that a Ford?" LOL!?!? I guess that just shows the cultural differences of terminology. My wife wouldnt have got that wrong, and she doesn't know much about such things at all.

After the valve issue with implosion as mentioned above in other posts, I will have to say, I might examine the idea of a regular 4 stroke compression ignition.

As mentioned at the very start of this article, it was stated that 0.25 Litres per Minute consumed by a petrol engine at 15 Miles Per Gallon with an assumed speed of 60 MPH. That the HHO guys who are adding this to petrol engines as an additive are getting between 1 litre and 3 litres per minute unregulated into the air filter. To me that was a horrible waste of a more volatile fuel potential than petrol, and efficiencies needed to be explored.

So the next phase I want to do is along the lines of an LP Gas conversion, with HHO on demand as the supply of GAS (not gasoline, but LPG replacement).

This is on the exploration of the assumption that Brown's Gas (HHO) mixed with air, and used as a replacement for LPG will work similarily under compression.

I anyone had any ideas on this let me know, or knows of other threads on this topic I would also be interested. I really need to do more research, pondering and experiments on this. Currently I think it is the best angle. As perhaps my previous replier GravityDad mentioned, that the implosion idea was an old one and given up and gone into other areas. But no labour is without profit. As Edison said, he had invented over 100 ways of how to not make a light bulb.

Offline jeanna

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Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
« Reply #41 on: June 26, 2008, 07:15:23 PM »
Zenarrow,

This is very cool and I am really glad you brought up the implosion thing.

And OK Yull Brown himself said to not pay attention to decompression implosion stuff - If that is true, I do not know.

I am not a car guy. I changed my own plugs n wires and oil in the 70's, but that is it.

This idea is a little like a diesel engine in reverse:

Explanation 1

Implode the HHO in one cylinder,

As that is imploding, the opposite piston is pulling up from the water in it's cylinder and creating a vacuum in the opposite one.

Spark the HHO in cylinder 2 and the piston will be sucked to the top

and at the same time the opposite piston will be pushed to the bottom.

If the gas inlet lets in a wee bit of water which is sitting on the top of the piston then when the piston is moved to the bottom with force of other cylinder the vacuum pressure will pull the HHO apart and the gas will be ready to implode on this cylinder.

Yikes this is hard to explain.

another try:

Cylinder 1
Piston on top
water resting on top of this piston

Suddenly the piston drops to the bottom

this vacuum creates HHO from the water. vacuum is on top of the cylinder.

At this time in cylinder 2

With the piston in cylinder 1 in the down position,
The piston in cylinder 2 is in the up position and a little water is let out to rest on top of the piston.

Back in cylinder 1, the spark strikes the gas and the piston 1 goes up to the top

forcing piston 2 into the down position (thus creating HHO by sucking it out of the water)

And a little water is let into the space on the top of piston 1

The water may be recycled to become the water let into the top of the piston too.

I will try again if necessary,

jeanna

The biggest questions I can see are can the standard parts be modified?
is there enough vacuum produced from one stroke?

-----------
FYI where this information came from:

Many years ago I researched the Kunkel patent awarded only after the patent office witnessed it working.

I posted the Kunkel patent on the pyramid general topic thread and I can link it here if necessary, so here goes:

The lower chambers up to the kings chamber in the pyramid work as a 2 stroke ram pump.
I only want to refer to the second and bigger stroke.

The grand gallery is built as a vacuum chamber. Water from the lower parts of the pump are sucked up into it and the vacuum and its release are part of how the ram pump works. The tricky part is that this vacuum will literally pull HHO out of the water to fill the space with gas and the pump will slow down.

Well, the gas happens to be HHO.

So, the vacuum chamber is filled with part water and part HHO.

Add a spark and the the gas implodes sucking water to fill the chamber, then once it is filled and no more vacuum is pulling the water up, then a check valve in the queen's chamber can open (gravity now) and the water will flow out and through another opening in the wall.

This causes a vacuum to reappear in the grand gallery which sucks water up into it until the vacuum pulls the HHO out of the water again. (BTW at this same time the check valve in the queen's chamber closes forcing the vacuum to be the only force going on.)

What I don't know is if the vacuum needed for the HHO to be pulled out of liquid water can be accomplished in a single stroke. I can not see why not.

It seems to me that car pistons are engineered to withstand this kind of vacuum if they can withstand the pressure from the explosion of gasoline, so it ought to be the same parts.



Offline jeanna

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Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
« Reply #42 on: June 26, 2008, 09:12:12 PM »
For those interested, here is the link to the page with the pdf of the kunkel patent. reply 1

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,4045.0.html

 I just want to clarify what I meant by
Quote
This idea is a little like a diesel engine in reverse:

I meant that whereas a diesel takes non volatile diesel and compresses it to where it self ignites, this would do the reverse by taking non volatile water and vacuming it to HHO which could then ignite (by a spark ).

jeanna

Offline retrodynamic

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Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
« Reply #43 on: June 27, 2008, 09:06:11 PM »
Yes it is. What do you think a over-unit power plant, to make an efficient electrolisy, to take the H from whater. Check this project:
The new Gearturbine, power by barr, with retrodynamic dextrogiro vs levogiro effect, at non parasitic looses system, and over-unit engine. Details:

www.geocities.com/gearturbine


Offline Reformator

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Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
« Reply #44 on: September 24, 2008, 12:16:41 AM »
It can drive cars!

http://www.brownsgas.com/brownsgasfuelsaver.html

 8) 8) 8)


Is it better than the Japan water engine that was build 3 months ago?

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Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
« Reply #44 on: September 24, 2008, 12:16:41 AM »

 

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