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Author Topic: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum  (Read 29623 times)

Offline zenarrow

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Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2008, 12:43:53 PM »
U can find about water electrolysis at
http://www.hydrogen.asn.au/hydrogen-technical-calculations.htm

I calculated and u will get from 1 l of water about 0,5 l of liquid hydrogen.

arh my friend, this is not about hydrogen, it is about HHO also called Brown's gas.
It implodes when burnt in a sealed container like a piston. The design of the Internal Combustion Engine turned on it's head so to speak. To much explodes, the right amount, should give a manageable implosion vacuum.

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Offline zenarrow

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Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2008, 12:53:56 PM »
A YouTube Video about it... I did have another link to Dr Brown, but the sound was atrocious.

This explains the gas, and how it ignites and other details...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lABkJi94LJA&feature=related
« Last Edit: June 19, 2008, 01:58:08 PM by zenarrow »


Offline Jokker

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Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2008, 02:17:16 PM »
arh my friend, this is not about hydrogen, it is about HHO also called Brown's gas.
It implodes when burnt in a sealed container like a piston. The design of the Internal Combustion Engine turned on it's head so to speak. To much explodes, the right amount, should give a manageable implosion vacuum.

I guess im wrong but...
It seems that electrolysis output is hydrogen and oxygen ( separated ) then u are pushing this mixture true water and u are getting another element ? No way Maybe trick is that the content balance changes so u can get more energy out of burning it.

Browns Gas Generators
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKCuI9IWfZ4&feature=related

I guess the trick is that u can use electrical energy in more effective way for heat. But yea u need some water also.

Offline zenarrow

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Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2008, 03:34:08 PM »
I guess im wrong but...
It seems that electrolysis output is hydrogen and oxygen ( separated ) then u are pushing this mixture true water and u are getting another element ? No way Maybe trick is that the content balance changes so u can get more energy out of burning it.

Browns Gas Generators
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKCuI9IWfZ4&feature=related

I guess the trick is that u can use electrical energy in more effective way for heat. But yea u need some water also.

The Browns gas is hydrogen and oxygen, but not seperated into two parts.
The video I pointed to above in youtube, explains it better. It also points out this can melt a brick into a glass like structure, ignite tunstan, but can't boil water. It says the electricity going into the water to create the gas HHO is also part of the energy in it. So water does not have the same effect when trying to boil as it disipates the electrical factor of the gas in flame. (strange concept, but his words). Yet the metal is highly conductive and melts straight away. And then the flame on the skin, does not burn at first either. The surface of the things it melts or cuts have water condensation deposits on it.

He also points out (there are 3 videos in the group) that there are at least 3 ways of this gas forming. As monoatomic (one molecule HHO) or diatomic (two separated gases), and if it is left in the sun in a clear container, it goes back to diatomic. Diatomic pops louder as hydrogen is separate to the oxygen. Where as there is another version he speculates is ionized, and gives more electrical charge and energy when used. Though that is being experimented with others for running cars etc.

It's all a research potential here.

He says you can flame polish rough quartz, and make precious looking stones by heating them. This is using the flame blow torch type use.

An application on youtube is using it for deep diving, where as they used helium and you get the squeaky voice and become intoxicated like drunks. HHO seems to be good for it, as well as coming up quickly without the bends. It is really a facinating thing to know more about.

I have only been rekindled with the idea since I saw ZeroFossilFuels videos on making your own HHO as a fuel supplement. My ideas have been jumping around. It has been very exhilerating.


Offline sportcoupe

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Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2008, 05:50:14 PM »
Alot of this topics discussion is over my head but I do know the workings of a standard pistion engine. Seems it has too many difficulties to overcome. Just food for though, has anyone tried to use a rotary engine instead? It has no pistons or cams to deal with. Timing is handled with port sizing. It is a very small displacement engine and very smooth operating.

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Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2008, 05:50:14 PM »
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Offline zenarrow

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Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2008, 01:03:49 AM »
Alot of this topics discussion is over my head but I do know the workings of a standard pistion engine. Seems it has too many difficulties to overcome. Just food for though, has anyone tried to use a rotary engine instead? It has no pistons or cams to deal with. Timing is handled with port sizing. It is a very small displacement engine and very smooth operating.

I am not sure on the wankle engine.

There are other things about this HHO gas, being used for many things recently.
Some people are going off the grid, running their generators on it.
The vacuum implosion idea seems to be an older idea.
I have seen many saying that they can run it normally with only mixture modifications.

One guy has a plasma cutter, runs a generator on it, runs a gas heater on it, runs his kitchen stove on it, and hs gone off the grid for electricity, making it all with Brown's gas. Other things I have seen, this is all since starting this thread, say that it must be stored in an opaque container, as clear in the sunlight makes it unstable, converting it into diatomic instead of the monatomic compound of HHO. HHO as Brown's gas as ONE molecule is very stable apparently and can be stored.

There is also another device I came across which has had the secret guys come around and intimidate him. Which only led him to KNOW that it works when he went to replicate another guys work. I am fairly sure the website said he had stuff on here about it. In fact going public was the way they want this to be patent free given to mankind.

See the following names, the original cell design has tubes within tubes, harmonically tuned by tone, to bring in a resonance effect more so than plates of the HHO cells which people are putting in their cars. See the Ravi Stanley Meyer Replication water fuel cell. (I would give links to websites, but that would make the secret intimidators job too easy for them, with them using this forum as a guide to shutdown people's work)

They were even using this for deep sea diving, which didnt have the side effects of the bends and coming up slow to avoid them.

Others are saying they are drinking water which has had this gas pass through it, and getting the energy like from a cup of coffee without the side effects.

Since H2O is part of our diet (water) it might be no so surprising that it regenerates healing better. All from recent research online.

Offline exxcomm0n

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Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2008, 02:05:59 AM »
Very very interesting.
I am optomistic that balance of mixtures, valve intake time, and electrical timing, along with the combination of electronics feedback tuning will have a fine tuning effect.
<snip>

So back to your experiments, did the mixture expand then implode? or did it just implode? And was it perfectly sealed from any other air?

Expand and contract. I've blown up bubblers by doing it too.

The entire idea behind a bubbler is to capture any flashback so it will not destroy the HHO generation vessel. It's has a tube from the generation vessel entering from the top side area and continuing to the bottom of the bubbler. It's filled at least 3/4 of the way with water to prevent a "string" of bubbles from being able to support ignition PAST the water so the flashback (if any) does not go past that point and ignite the generation chamber. Then the gas bubbling up through the water goes to where you want to use it.

You need to go to YouTube and search for "HHO bubbler (or flashback)" and see the work that's being done in this area. It will give you a more complete understanding of HHO properties.

It is airtight to contain the HHO on it's way to its destination where it is usually used for it's explosive force.

This is why when I had my tiny aperture torch i was able to capture the vacuum effect in the bubbler.

For the stroke being too long, as you brought up, perhaps, opening valves for short times, to give only a minor amount in the cyclinder. Since this is more volatile in its power than petroleum, perhaps it doesnt need as much as would be mixed through the carbie, and the duration length of the intake valves cycle?

It's a bit of a balance, effect, but so is the modern carbie.

At higher RPM the storke cycle is probably fast enough to benefit from vacuum, but at low RPM the stroke is taking a lot longer and at that point robbing you of 1/2 the motive force at least IMHO.

I suggest the YouTube research as it will show you how "explosive" this idea has become lately.

:D
« Last Edit: June 20, 2008, 02:43:52 AM by exxcomm0n »

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2008, 02:05:59 AM »
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Offline exxcomm0n

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Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
« Reply #22 on: June 20, 2008, 02:09:55 AM »
Alot of this topics discussion is over my head but I do know the workings of a standard pistion engine. Seems it has too many difficulties to overcome. Just food for though, has anyone tried to use a rotary engine instead? It has no pistons or cams to deal with. Timing is handled with port sizing. It is a very small displacement engine and very smooth operating.

It's a good thought and more research has to be done in this area!

Keep thinking!

:D

Offline zenarrow

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Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
« Reply #23 on: June 20, 2008, 10:44:23 AM »
Some other thoughts...

I'm not sure the engine can stand that type of hammering.

What I mean is, the explosion does have a energy output, even if not compressed.

It's just going to expend itself trying to push the crankshaft down below its lowest point?
It might be enough force to defeat the layer of oil that is the bearing and allowing surfaces to touch and wear.

I'm not saying it wouldn't work, but where is the explosion potential being used?

I have seen other stuff online since, showing that HHO can be in several forms as monoatomic or diatomic, with monoatomic being the Browns Gas, which still keeps the full ratio of HHO, and diatomic being split into a more unstable mixture instead of the compount. It was stated taht in a clear bottle stored Monoatomic became Diatomic, and is the unstable version prone to explosion.

Now back to the Engine. It seems from a very poor sound recording of Dr Brown, and other research that the internal combustion engine can be run directly on Brown's Gas HHO monoatomic.

This leaves two factors mentioned previous, to be considered. The expansion and the implosion of the gases in the cylinder chamber.
To have the piston timing firing when the piston is on the way from TDC to BDC, so that it fires very near prior to BDC, so that the timing of the "implosion" is at or closely after BDC. Of course with timing adjustments and electronics for speed variation advancing these days, it is possible to tune it for best effect. So that it takes advantage of both the properties. Assuming that it does have an expansion/explosion effect when ignited prior to the implosion effect. From what I saw in a video by an expert who has written a few books on Brown's Gas (which may vary slightly to HHO if the HHO is diatomic and not monoatomic), then from that he does not mention the expansion, only the implosion. A ratio of 1800 into 1, kind of the opposite of steam or the opposite of the expansion process.

So it is very possible there is a flame reaction going into implosion as the gases retract into the water molecule. Which was my original understanding. I really need to do my own lab experimentation research on this. He also talks of a third state of this gas, which he speculates is ionized, and is used by others to run cars on water.

Also...
There is another guy I saw in USA making a cell system to run on 32 plates in series with 120VAC supplied, with diodes to pulse it. He used this to make a plasma torch for cutting and welding. I also saw in his comments, saying he runs his car and a generator and gas heater all on this save HHO. So does no longer pay for electricity and is off the grid by "water power".
heres his video channel http://www.metacafe.com/channels/cheaphardwarez/

Offline zenarrow

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Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
« Reply #24 on: June 20, 2008, 10:51:48 AM »
Expand and contract. I've blown up bubblers by doing it too.

The bubbler however is not sealed air tight is it?
Where as the cyclinder is with all the valves closed.
This is a major principle see my other post where expansion is not mentioned for the monatomic version of HHO not the diatomic version.
see play list of 3 videos with more info on it at...
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=A8E30B5EB87D3A27

This sealed unit is a very IMPORTANT difference. Since the bubbler has 2 openings. A piston cylinder is completely sealed.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
« Reply #24 on: June 20, 2008, 10:51:48 AM »
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Offline zenarrow

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Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
« Reply #25 on: June 21, 2008, 07:13:40 PM »
Alot of this topics discussion is over my head but I do know the workings of a standard pistion engine. Seems it has too many difficulties to overcome. Just food for though, has anyone tried to use a rotary engine instead? It has no pistons or cams to deal with. Timing is handled with port sizing. It is a very small displacement engine and very smooth operating.

Here's an animation I am working on for the final compare...
First here is the 4 stroke engine, the regular one in cars these days, which normally runs gasoline/petroleum (gas/petrol).

Notice it has a 1 to 2 (1:2) ratio for the cams rotations to the crankshaft.

4 Cycles (strokes)
1. Intake
Starting at the top (Top Dead Centre (TDC)) the piston starts towards the bottom, with the intake valve opening, and letting the fuel/air mixture in, the piston act like a pump it sucks in the fuel. The valve closes according to design, usually before the bottom (Bottom Dead Center (BDC)).

2.Compression
The cyclinder is now sealed, and starts to go from BDC towards TDC and compresses the fuel/air mixture.

3. Firing
Just before TDC the spark plug fires, usually a few degrees before TDC, and ignites the fuel/air mixture. The intertia of the flywheel keeps the crankshaft spinning, along with the delay in igniting the fuel and it's burn rate, and gets past TDC before the full expansion occurs, which then drives the piston downwards towards BDC.

4. Exhaust
After BDC the expansion having finished, the piston starts to rise up toward TDC again, and starts to compress the burn up gases (Carbon Monoxide (CO2)) and then it opens the exhaust valve, and the CO2 is released under pressure, as well as with the pumping effect of the piston, pushing it out the exhaust port. The valve closes just prior to TDC ready to take in more fuel/air mixture and the cycle starts all over again.

To maintain an idle speed, it is usually around 250 to 850 RPM (Revolutions Per Minute) Depending on the number of cyclinders. More cyclinders requires less speed to maintain idle speed. Any lower and the engine stalls from not being able to maintain the cycle. Redline (Max Speed) is around 5000 to 6000 RPM, with variations due to make etc. Motorcylces like 250cc usually idle between 1000 to 1250 RPM and often redline at 9,000 to 12,000 RPM. V8 cars often redline at 4500. Though most of these figures are 20 years old and from memory.

Heres the animation...
(http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn108/zenarrow/4strokeSlow.gif)
Note the cams here are showing only 4 positions and would normally rotate smoothly.

Heres a faster animation which hides the pulses better with the illusion of animation.
(motion pictures are really still images at 25 to 30 frames per second. ;)

(http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn108/zenarrow/4strokeSmooth.gif)

Note that fuel burns at a set rate, so the faster the RPM, the sooner the fuel needs to be ignited. This is called ignition advance. These days they are electronic, in the old days they used points switches on a cam, which would then have weights which would spin outwards to a maximu distance with some variation, moving the points cam (not shown) to advance from typically 4 Degrees BTC (standard) to the fully advanced setting of around 25 Deg BTC. Some even much more.

With HHO additive to standard fuels, as there is much about on the net and in here. The petrol gasoline then burns faster, burning more fuel, making it more efficient. For unburnt fuel ends up in the exhaust pipe, showing a black soot on the plugs coloration.

Note the cam chain is also shown here. Which also requires the cams set for best timing. The lobes on the cam effecting how long the valves are open and closed. Hence high performance cams get more power again. There is always a balance between fuel enconomy and power. HHO gives more power as an additive.

The eventual idea here is to run the whole engine on HHO, then the oil companies will not be so happy, for they seem to want to make lots of money as soon as possible, and don't care about the environment consequences. Even now they are drilling for more oil, while the rest of the world is saying go green.

It is possible to run most of your fuel in home and car, from cooking to heating, all from HHO, Brown's Gas. The technology just needs to be established to be off the shelf. But there are many do it yourself kits about for many aspect of utlizing it. Look about the net and videos channels many are showing how to do it with off the shelve bits from the hardware store.

Note these are DOHC (double overhead cams) engines. And allows for easy timing changes of cams on a work bench. Usually the cogs on the cams are twice the size of the cog on the crankshaft for the 1:2 ratio of cam 1 rev to the cranks 2 revs. An old motocycle engine would be good as well.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2008, 07:56:20 PM by zenarrow »

Offline zenarrow

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Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
« Reply #26 on: June 21, 2008, 07:48:24 PM »
Here's another idea of using Brown's Gas with a petrol driven generator. Technically an alternator for mains power. Though I would hesitate about the noise of a generator running all the time. But perhaps sound proofing these into an enclosure like a freezer box might be the next phase.

Basically...
1. Is just a power switch panel which turns the battery circuit on give power to the Brown's Gas Electrolyser Cell, as well as other switches which allow the charge cirucuit to the battery, and the kill switch for the motor.

2. The good old 12VDC battery from a Car, which provides the powr to the HHO Cell (Brown's Gas) on demand.

3. The Brown's Gas Electrolyser Cell

4. The Gas Manifold and bubbler etc to make it compatible to the petrol/gasoline engine

5. The engine unit with the alternator attached as one unit from the store.

6. The alternator coupled to the engine in one unit (5)

7. The mains output power (240VAC Australia or 110VAC USA) which goes to output and back to the charging circuit to keep the system going, which should go until it breaks down from lack of maintenance ;)

8. Step down transformer from mains power to 12 VDC to recharge the battery

9. The 12VDC charger circuit

10. The wall outlet plug socket for you appropriate country's power system (power point)

This should run forever, with maintenance stops. It is the goal.
To put the unit in a sound proof encloser, and to have it so it creates more gas on demand to drive gas heaters and cooking stove. It would be a lucritative little business setting these up as DYI kits, when it gets perfects. Solar power might also be a good supplement, as wear and tare on an engine running 24/7 would be a bit.

On the other hand, an electric starter and automated timers, could have it so it charged other batteries for quiet times. Since there is no harmful gases given off. Exhaust is not such a problem.

Some ideas to share with those creative out there.


Offline zerotensor

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Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
« Reply #27 on: June 21, 2008, 09:31:57 PM »
HHO when ignited does not implode.  It explodes.

True, the volume of liquid water is less than the volume of HHO at the same temperature, but:

1)  The water produced is not liquid.  It is steam.
2)  The temperature of the steam produced is much greater than the temp. of the HHO.

Only by extracting-away the heat, (and thus condensing the steam), can a vacuum be produced.

You can make a very good vacuum by rapidly cooling steam in a sealed vessel.  I once was steaming vegetables in an electric wok with a hemispherical lid.  The water all boiled away, and to avoid a smelly cloud from filling the room, I transfered the whole apparatus to the sink (after unplugging it of course), and ran cold water over the top.  The steam inside condensed and the lid became STUCK to the wok because the steam inside condensed, creating a very good vacuum.  I couldn't separate the lid, no matter how hard I tried.  I actually cracked a rib trying to torque the lid off!  I should have just heated -up the wok again, but I wasn't thinking clearly.  Eventually, I hit the lid as hard as I could with a pair of pliers, and *foom*  the lid popped off, bent itself into a banana-like shape, flipped into the air with an odd dissonant ringing sound, and a cloud of cold water vapor materialized in midair right in front of my eyes.  Crazy.

Anyway, the only way you could make the HHO -->  H2O reaction produce a vacuum is if you could find a way to extract the thermal energy of the resulting steam, thereby condensing it.  This is unlikely to happen within the short time-period of a single cycle of a piston engine.

Offline zenarrow

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Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
« Reply #28 on: June 22, 2008, 04:20:26 AM »
HHO when ignited does not implode.  It explodes.

True, the volume of liquid water is less than the volume of HHO at the same temperature, but:

1)  The water produced is not liquid.  It is steam.
2)  The temperature of the steam produced is much greater than the temp. of the HHO.


Everything I read about HHO Brown's Gas, said that if you ignite in a sealed cylinder, it implodes.
It MUST be SEALED. Mixing it with petrol, is not the same thing. And igniting it with any air inlet is not the same thing. It was over 20 years ago I read this, but the idea stuck in my mind as an amazing thing. It might be possible they said it had to be in a partial vaccum already. IE as when a cyclinder is opened and sucking in the mixture as in the animation above, and the valved closed Before BDC. The mixture is then in a sealed chamber, and the piston still heading towards BDC makes it partial vacuum, certainly less than atmospheric pressure. If ignited at BDC it now is a completely different set of circumstances and then it wil SUCK the piston upwards. That is the ONLY reason I am mentioning this whole article is based on that article interview with Dr Yul Brown in the 80's with Grass Roots magazine, which was based on alternative ways and energies.

Do you know for a fact that it explodes in this case?
1. In a sealed container with a partial vaccum?
2. Ignited near BDC

Note the above diagram animation is a standard 4 stroke engine running petrol firing regular Before TDC.
I have yet to do another animation with HHO Brown's Gas firing near BDC (Bottom Dead Centre).


Offline zerotensor

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Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
« Reply #29 on: June 22, 2008, 05:35:57 AM »
I suppose you are right, after all.

It explodes, then quickly implodes.  The implosion wins.  The thermal energy of the steam created by the reaction is negated by its rapid expansion.  This causes the hot steam to rapidly cool and condense to vapor, resulting in a net implosion effect.

in case you haven't seen these, check out,

http://www.youtube.com/user/CarbideTip

Cheers.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: HHO as the only fuel (Brown's Gas) creates Vaccum
« Reply #29 on: June 22, 2008, 05:35:57 AM »

 

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